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vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifk24pa | ifhgg2c | 1,657,425,291 | 1,657,381,144 | 3 | 2 | Have the protagonist get it wrong. | Give your villain a history. Often that provides the reader with some reasoning to the the grand plan | 1 | 44,147 | 1.5 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifk24pa | ifj4xrw | 1,657,425,291 | 1,657,408,281 | 3 | 2 | Have the protagonist get it wrong. | Have it revealed in a hank Schrader on the toilet type scene | 1 | 17,010 | 1.5 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifk24pa | ifjnpj4 | 1,657,425,291 | 1,657,417,664 | 3 | 2 | Have the protagonist get it wrong. | From reader's POV: Don't tell me sh\*t drop me the pieces let me have fun piecing them together. | 1 | 7,627 | 1.5 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifhtpo9 | ifk24pa | 1,657,386,876 | 1,657,425,291 | 1 | 3 | At the end of every scene have your villain evilly laugh and do that thing Mr Burns does with his fingers. Remember Show, don’t Tell. | Have the protagonist get it wrong. | 0 | 38,415 | 3 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifk24pa | ifh47l8 | 1,657,425,291 | 1,657,375,651 | 3 | 1 | Have the protagonist get it wrong. | let it play out and describe it in detail! i feel like if the reader figures it out as its unfolding, that's bound to be interesting :)) plus lots of readers love making their own theories as it goes along. x | 1 | 49,640 | 3 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifhnscg | ifk24pa | 1,657,384,337 | 1,657,425,291 | 1 | 3 | Like in Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood the heroes find it out by putting it all together. Sometimes it’s slowly overtime but then they come to an “Aha” moment and start to piece those past things together. If you showed those clues earlier in the story it can turn out great. | Have the protagonist get it wrong. | 0 | 40,954 | 3 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifi2qg4 | ifk24pa | 1,657,390,872 | 1,657,425,291 | 1 | 3 | Have a character (MC or otherwise) eavesdrop on the villain for all/part of a conversation about his plan. OR Have the MC stumble onto evidence and figure out what it might be proof of. | Have the protagonist get it wrong. | 0 | 34,419 | 3 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifk24pa | ifif97b | 1,657,425,291 | 1,657,396,504 | 3 | 1 | Have the protagonist get it wrong. | Someone stumbles onto it but the villain has no idea. | 1 | 28,787 | 3 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifirk4c | ifk24pa | 1,657,402,056 | 1,657,425,291 | 1 | 3 | You can reveal it in that way as well. The story police won’t arrest you if you do, in fact things being made in 2022 have that trope still in them. | Have the protagonist get it wrong. | 0 | 23,235 | 3 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifis038 | ifk24pa | 1,657,402,261 | 1,657,425,291 | 1 | 3 | Not sure if I would consider this a loop hole or not, but certainly a different take to the other good suggestions: You could offer your protagonist a false ally whose motivations bring on their own personal conflicts. That is to say, this false ally who is actually working for your villain could reveal they were working for the villain, but are struggling with actually following through. This opens up an opportunity for the protagonist to try and get some of the answers they need. This shouldn’t replace what a lot of other people have mentioned though. It should still make sense, which means that you should still drop hints and key information along the way so that when it is eventually revealed, it’s like pieces clicking into place, rather than a completely random turnaround! | Have the protagonist get it wrong. | 0 | 23,030 | 3 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifj35ls | ifk24pa | 1,657,407,439 | 1,657,425,291 | 1 | 3 | Show, don't tell. | Have the protagonist get it wrong. | 0 | 17,852 | 3 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifk24pa | ifj9b8k | 1,657,425,291 | 1,657,410,402 | 3 | 1 | Have the protagonist get it wrong. | This is a majorly open-ended question. Ultimately it depends on your story. If the protag is trying to piece together a mystery, then that's the story. If the protag figured it out early, then tried to stop the antag for the rest of the book, then that's the story. If the protag never figured it out, the antag finished their plan, now the protag has to deal with the ramifications, then that's the story. Its going to depend on the story you want to write. Most mystery books aren't completely in the light until the very end, slowly revealing the moving parts as it goes. How you reveal said plan depends on what kind of role your protag is going to have with it. | 1 | 14,889 | 3 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifh47l8 | ifhgg2c | 1,657,375,651 | 1,657,381,144 | 1 | 2 | let it play out and describe it in detail! i feel like if the reader figures it out as its unfolding, that's bound to be interesting :)) plus lots of readers love making their own theories as it goes along. x | Give your villain a history. Often that provides the reader with some reasoning to the the grand plan | 0 | 5,493 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifj4xrw | ifhtpo9 | 1,657,408,281 | 1,657,386,876 | 2 | 1 | Have it revealed in a hank Schrader on the toilet type scene | At the end of every scene have your villain evilly laugh and do that thing Mr Burns does with his fingers. Remember Show, don’t Tell. | 1 | 21,405 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifj4xrw | ifh47l8 | 1,657,408,281 | 1,657,375,651 | 2 | 1 | Have it revealed in a hank Schrader on the toilet type scene | let it play out and describe it in detail! i feel like if the reader figures it out as its unfolding, that's bound to be interesting :)) plus lots of readers love making their own theories as it goes along. x | 1 | 32,630 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifj4xrw | ifhnscg | 1,657,408,281 | 1,657,384,337 | 2 | 1 | Have it revealed in a hank Schrader on the toilet type scene | Like in Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood the heroes find it out by putting it all together. Sometimes it’s slowly overtime but then they come to an “Aha” moment and start to piece those past things together. If you showed those clues earlier in the story it can turn out great. | 1 | 23,944 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifj4xrw | ifi2qg4 | 1,657,408,281 | 1,657,390,872 | 2 | 1 | Have it revealed in a hank Schrader on the toilet type scene | Have a character (MC or otherwise) eavesdrop on the villain for all/part of a conversation about his plan. OR Have the MC stumble onto evidence and figure out what it might be proof of. | 1 | 17,409 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifif97b | ifj4xrw | 1,657,396,504 | 1,657,408,281 | 1 | 2 | Someone stumbles onto it but the villain has no idea. | Have it revealed in a hank Schrader on the toilet type scene | 0 | 11,777 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifirk4c | ifj4xrw | 1,657,402,056 | 1,657,408,281 | 1 | 2 | You can reveal it in that way as well. The story police won’t arrest you if you do, in fact things being made in 2022 have that trope still in them. | Have it revealed in a hank Schrader on the toilet type scene | 0 | 6,225 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifis038 | ifj4xrw | 1,657,402,261 | 1,657,408,281 | 1 | 2 | Not sure if I would consider this a loop hole or not, but certainly a different take to the other good suggestions: You could offer your protagonist a false ally whose motivations bring on their own personal conflicts. That is to say, this false ally who is actually working for your villain could reveal they were working for the villain, but are struggling with actually following through. This opens up an opportunity for the protagonist to try and get some of the answers they need. This shouldn’t replace what a lot of other people have mentioned though. It should still make sense, which means that you should still drop hints and key information along the way so that when it is eventually revealed, it’s like pieces clicking into place, rather than a completely random turnaround! | Have it revealed in a hank Schrader on the toilet type scene | 0 | 6,020 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifj35ls | ifj4xrw | 1,657,407,439 | 1,657,408,281 | 1 | 2 | Show, don't tell. | Have it revealed in a hank Schrader on the toilet type scene | 0 | 842 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifhtpo9 | ifjnpj4 | 1,657,386,876 | 1,657,417,664 | 1 | 2 | At the end of every scene have your villain evilly laugh and do that thing Mr Burns does with his fingers. Remember Show, don’t Tell. | From reader's POV: Don't tell me sh\*t drop me the pieces let me have fun piecing them together. | 0 | 30,788 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifjnpj4 | ifh47l8 | 1,657,417,664 | 1,657,375,651 | 2 | 1 | From reader's POV: Don't tell me sh\*t drop me the pieces let me have fun piecing them together. | let it play out and describe it in detail! i feel like if the reader figures it out as its unfolding, that's bound to be interesting :)) plus lots of readers love making their own theories as it goes along. x | 1 | 42,013 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifjnpj4 | ifhnscg | 1,657,417,664 | 1,657,384,337 | 2 | 1 | From reader's POV: Don't tell me sh\*t drop me the pieces let me have fun piecing them together. | Like in Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood the heroes find it out by putting it all together. Sometimes it’s slowly overtime but then they come to an “Aha” moment and start to piece those past things together. If you showed those clues earlier in the story it can turn out great. | 1 | 33,327 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifi2qg4 | ifjnpj4 | 1,657,390,872 | 1,657,417,664 | 1 | 2 | Have a character (MC or otherwise) eavesdrop on the villain for all/part of a conversation about his plan. OR Have the MC stumble onto evidence and figure out what it might be proof of. | From reader's POV: Don't tell me sh\*t drop me the pieces let me have fun piecing them together. | 0 | 26,792 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifjnpj4 | ifif97b | 1,657,417,664 | 1,657,396,504 | 2 | 1 | From reader's POV: Don't tell me sh\*t drop me the pieces let me have fun piecing them together. | Someone stumbles onto it but the villain has no idea. | 1 | 21,160 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifirk4c | ifjnpj4 | 1,657,402,056 | 1,657,417,664 | 1 | 2 | You can reveal it in that way as well. The story police won’t arrest you if you do, in fact things being made in 2022 have that trope still in them. | From reader's POV: Don't tell me sh\*t drop me the pieces let me have fun piecing them together. | 0 | 15,608 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifjnpj4 | ifis038 | 1,657,417,664 | 1,657,402,261 | 2 | 1 | From reader's POV: Don't tell me sh\*t drop me the pieces let me have fun piecing them together. | Not sure if I would consider this a loop hole or not, but certainly a different take to the other good suggestions: You could offer your protagonist a false ally whose motivations bring on their own personal conflicts. That is to say, this false ally who is actually working for your villain could reveal they were working for the villain, but are struggling with actually following through. This opens up an opportunity for the protagonist to try and get some of the answers they need. This shouldn’t replace what a lot of other people have mentioned though. It should still make sense, which means that you should still drop hints and key information along the way so that when it is eventually revealed, it’s like pieces clicking into place, rather than a completely random turnaround! | 1 | 15,403 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifjnpj4 | ifj35ls | 1,657,417,664 | 1,657,407,439 | 2 | 1 | From reader's POV: Don't tell me sh\*t drop me the pieces let me have fun piecing them together. | Show, don't tell. | 1 | 10,225 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifj9b8k | ifjnpj4 | 1,657,410,402 | 1,657,417,664 | 1 | 2 | This is a majorly open-ended question. Ultimately it depends on your story. If the protag is trying to piece together a mystery, then that's the story. If the protag figured it out early, then tried to stop the antag for the rest of the book, then that's the story. If the protag never figured it out, the antag finished their plan, now the protag has to deal with the ramifications, then that's the story. Its going to depend on the story you want to write. Most mystery books aren't completely in the light until the very end, slowly revealing the moving parts as it goes. How you reveal said plan depends on what kind of role your protag is going to have with it. | From reader's POV: Don't tell me sh\*t drop me the pieces let me have fun piecing them together. | 0 | 7,262 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifhtpo9 | ifkb73x | 1,657,386,876 | 1,657,430,906 | 1 | 2 | At the end of every scene have your villain evilly laugh and do that thing Mr Burns does with his fingers. Remember Show, don’t Tell. | "Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago." | 0 | 44,030 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifh47l8 | ifkb73x | 1,657,375,651 | 1,657,430,906 | 1 | 2 | let it play out and describe it in detail! i feel like if the reader figures it out as its unfolding, that's bound to be interesting :)) plus lots of readers love making their own theories as it goes along. x | "Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago." | 0 | 55,255 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifhnscg | ifkb73x | 1,657,384,337 | 1,657,430,906 | 1 | 2 | Like in Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood the heroes find it out by putting it all together. Sometimes it’s slowly overtime but then they come to an “Aha” moment and start to piece those past things together. If you showed those clues earlier in the story it can turn out great. | "Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago." | 0 | 46,569 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifkb73x | ifi2qg4 | 1,657,430,906 | 1,657,390,872 | 2 | 1 | "Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago." | Have a character (MC or otherwise) eavesdrop on the villain for all/part of a conversation about his plan. OR Have the MC stumble onto evidence and figure out what it might be proof of. | 1 | 40,034 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifif97b | ifkb73x | 1,657,396,504 | 1,657,430,906 | 1 | 2 | Someone stumbles onto it but the villain has no idea. | "Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago." | 0 | 34,402 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifkb73x | ifirk4c | 1,657,430,906 | 1,657,402,056 | 2 | 1 | "Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago." | You can reveal it in that way as well. The story police won’t arrest you if you do, in fact things being made in 2022 have that trope still in them. | 1 | 28,850 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifis038 | ifkb73x | 1,657,402,261 | 1,657,430,906 | 1 | 2 | Not sure if I would consider this a loop hole or not, but certainly a different take to the other good suggestions: You could offer your protagonist a false ally whose motivations bring on their own personal conflicts. That is to say, this false ally who is actually working for your villain could reveal they were working for the villain, but are struggling with actually following through. This opens up an opportunity for the protagonist to try and get some of the answers they need. This shouldn’t replace what a lot of other people have mentioned though. It should still make sense, which means that you should still drop hints and key information along the way so that when it is eventually revealed, it’s like pieces clicking into place, rather than a completely random turnaround! | "Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago." | 0 | 28,645 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifkb73x | ifj35ls | 1,657,430,906 | 1,657,407,439 | 2 | 1 | "Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago." | Show, don't tell. | 1 | 23,467 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifkb73x | ifj9b8k | 1,657,430,906 | 1,657,410,402 | 2 | 1 | "Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago." | This is a majorly open-ended question. Ultimately it depends on your story. If the protag is trying to piece together a mystery, then that's the story. If the protag figured it out early, then tried to stop the antag for the rest of the book, then that's the story. If the protag never figured it out, the antag finished their plan, now the protag has to deal with the ramifications, then that's the story. Its going to depend on the story you want to write. Most mystery books aren't completely in the light until the very end, slowly revealing the moving parts as it goes. How you reveal said plan depends on what kind of role your protag is going to have with it. | 1 | 20,504 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifkkp9l | ifhtpo9 | 1,657,438,067 | 1,657,386,876 | 2 | 1 | Yeah, you know how Disney villains always seem to have a sniveling underling (think Lefou, those three hyenas from Lion King, or Kronk) or a companion animal they can talk to (Iago, Floatsam and Jetsam, Joanna)? Well, pretty much for that reason, so the villain has someone to explain their plan to with believable justification. Their sidekick has to have some idea what the plan is supposed to be in order to play their part in it. And in explaining to them the villain is explaining it to us. | At the end of every scene have your villain evilly laugh and do that thing Mr Burns does with his fingers. Remember Show, don’t Tell. | 1 | 51,191 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifh47l8 | ifkkp9l | 1,657,375,651 | 1,657,438,067 | 1 | 2 | let it play out and describe it in detail! i feel like if the reader figures it out as its unfolding, that's bound to be interesting :)) plus lots of readers love making their own theories as it goes along. x | Yeah, you know how Disney villains always seem to have a sniveling underling (think Lefou, those three hyenas from Lion King, or Kronk) or a companion animal they can talk to (Iago, Floatsam and Jetsam, Joanna)? Well, pretty much for that reason, so the villain has someone to explain their plan to with believable justification. Their sidekick has to have some idea what the plan is supposed to be in order to play their part in it. And in explaining to them the villain is explaining it to us. | 0 | 62,416 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifhnscg | ifkkp9l | 1,657,384,337 | 1,657,438,067 | 1 | 2 | Like in Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood the heroes find it out by putting it all together. Sometimes it’s slowly overtime but then they come to an “Aha” moment and start to piece those past things together. If you showed those clues earlier in the story it can turn out great. | Yeah, you know how Disney villains always seem to have a sniveling underling (think Lefou, those three hyenas from Lion King, or Kronk) or a companion animal they can talk to (Iago, Floatsam and Jetsam, Joanna)? Well, pretty much for that reason, so the villain has someone to explain their plan to with believable justification. Their sidekick has to have some idea what the plan is supposed to be in order to play their part in it. And in explaining to them the villain is explaining it to us. | 0 | 53,730 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifi2qg4 | ifkkp9l | 1,657,390,872 | 1,657,438,067 | 1 | 2 | Have a character (MC or otherwise) eavesdrop on the villain for all/part of a conversation about his plan. OR Have the MC stumble onto evidence and figure out what it might be proof of. | Yeah, you know how Disney villains always seem to have a sniveling underling (think Lefou, those three hyenas from Lion King, or Kronk) or a companion animal they can talk to (Iago, Floatsam and Jetsam, Joanna)? Well, pretty much for that reason, so the villain has someone to explain their plan to with believable justification. Their sidekick has to have some idea what the plan is supposed to be in order to play their part in it. And in explaining to them the villain is explaining it to us. | 0 | 47,195 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifkkp9l | ifif97b | 1,657,438,067 | 1,657,396,504 | 2 | 1 | Yeah, you know how Disney villains always seem to have a sniveling underling (think Lefou, those three hyenas from Lion King, or Kronk) or a companion animal they can talk to (Iago, Floatsam and Jetsam, Joanna)? Well, pretty much for that reason, so the villain has someone to explain their plan to with believable justification. Their sidekick has to have some idea what the plan is supposed to be in order to play their part in it. And in explaining to them the villain is explaining it to us. | Someone stumbles onto it but the villain has no idea. | 1 | 41,563 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifirk4c | ifkkp9l | 1,657,402,056 | 1,657,438,067 | 1 | 2 | You can reveal it in that way as well. The story police won’t arrest you if you do, in fact things being made in 2022 have that trope still in them. | Yeah, you know how Disney villains always seem to have a sniveling underling (think Lefou, those three hyenas from Lion King, or Kronk) or a companion animal they can talk to (Iago, Floatsam and Jetsam, Joanna)? Well, pretty much for that reason, so the villain has someone to explain their plan to with believable justification. Their sidekick has to have some idea what the plan is supposed to be in order to play their part in it. And in explaining to them the villain is explaining it to us. | 0 | 36,011 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifis038 | ifkkp9l | 1,657,402,261 | 1,657,438,067 | 1 | 2 | Not sure if I would consider this a loop hole or not, but certainly a different take to the other good suggestions: You could offer your protagonist a false ally whose motivations bring on their own personal conflicts. That is to say, this false ally who is actually working for your villain could reveal they were working for the villain, but are struggling with actually following through. This opens up an opportunity for the protagonist to try and get some of the answers they need. This shouldn’t replace what a lot of other people have mentioned though. It should still make sense, which means that you should still drop hints and key information along the way so that when it is eventually revealed, it’s like pieces clicking into place, rather than a completely random turnaround! | Yeah, you know how Disney villains always seem to have a sniveling underling (think Lefou, those three hyenas from Lion King, or Kronk) or a companion animal they can talk to (Iago, Floatsam and Jetsam, Joanna)? Well, pretty much for that reason, so the villain has someone to explain their plan to with believable justification. Their sidekick has to have some idea what the plan is supposed to be in order to play their part in it. And in explaining to them the villain is explaining it to us. | 0 | 35,806 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifkkp9l | ifj35ls | 1,657,438,067 | 1,657,407,439 | 2 | 1 | Yeah, you know how Disney villains always seem to have a sniveling underling (think Lefou, those three hyenas from Lion King, or Kronk) or a companion animal they can talk to (Iago, Floatsam and Jetsam, Joanna)? Well, pretty much for that reason, so the villain has someone to explain their plan to with believable justification. Their sidekick has to have some idea what the plan is supposed to be in order to play their part in it. And in explaining to them the villain is explaining it to us. | Show, don't tell. | 1 | 30,628 | 2 | ||
vv206q | writing_train | 0.94 | How do you reveal the villian's plan without making him say it out loud for no reason or making the narrator explain it How to reveal plot twist? How to show what was the pourpose of what the villian is doing? | ifkkp9l | ifj9b8k | 1,657,438,067 | 1,657,410,402 | 2 | 1 | Yeah, you know how Disney villains always seem to have a sniveling underling (think Lefou, those three hyenas from Lion King, or Kronk) or a companion animal they can talk to (Iago, Floatsam and Jetsam, Joanna)? Well, pretty much for that reason, so the villain has someone to explain their plan to with believable justification. Their sidekick has to have some idea what the plan is supposed to be in order to play their part in it. And in explaining to them the villain is explaining it to us. | This is a majorly open-ended question. Ultimately it depends on your story. If the protag is trying to piece together a mystery, then that's the story. If the protag figured it out early, then tried to stop the antag for the rest of the book, then that's the story. If the protag never figured it out, the antag finished their plan, now the protag has to deal with the ramifications, then that's the story. Its going to depend on the story you want to write. Most mystery books aren't completely in the light until the very end, slowly revealing the moving parts as it goes. How you reveal said plan depends on what kind of role your protag is going to have with it. | 1 | 27,665 | 2 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | ir9mqho | ir9myfk | 1,665,054,988 | 1,665,055,134 | 2 | 85 | Okay, so, first things first: sometimes you do just have to explain something. It’s better if you can work explanations in, but people on this sub and on certain advice forums and YouTubes way overemphasize the necessity of avoiding info dumping. It’s one of those snippets of advice that a lot of people parrot as evergreen, without really thinking about it. A lot of fantasy/sci fi tries to work it in more naturally by having an ignorant perspective. If the character is just a simple peasant farmer or some poor kid, they may be learning about the world just as much as we are. One thing to ask — how much needs to be explained? And for what does need to be explained, does it need to be all at once? | good on you to care about this! One approach is to start a separate document where you DO an info dump. Write out all the details. Then print that page off a couple times. Sit with a highlighter or pen and underline three main points. Do this again on the next print out, picking different points. Now think on this for a day or two. Often it all drops into place. “Gallactica powers only show on the full moon,” Plentiness said. He stirred his tea and stared into the cup. “But Mordess was able to harness the powers on a dark night.” “How,” I asked “We don’t know.“ Plentiness swallowed the last of his tea with a grimace. “But if we don’t figure this out, the village is doomed.” Now we can continue the action while sprinkling in details as we go | 0 | 146 | 42.5 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | ir9obuk | ir9rurv | 1,665,056,022 | 1,665,058,118 | 6 | 15 | Does the audience absolutely need to know the information to understand/be engaged with the writing? If not then reveal it slowly piece by piece in thoughts, actions or speech. It's okay to have your reader questioning things because that keeps them reading and guessing until things get revealed. Good luck with your writing! | Before you worry about this, first remember that your primary goal is not to tell your reader things, but to make them *want* to be told things. You are trying to plant *questions* for your story to answer. **NB:** An obvious exception to this principle is when you reveal facts that *overturn* your reader's current understanding. That's a twist, and for obvious reasons works just fine unannounced. An infodump, in the perjorative sense, is writing that piles the reader's plate with facts they don't know what to do with. *You* know (or think) the information is important, but your reader is nonplussed. If that's what's happening, then you're either telling your reader things too soon, or you haven't primed them properly. | 0 | 2,096 | 2.5 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | ir9mqho | ir9rurv | 1,665,054,988 | 1,665,058,118 | 2 | 15 | Okay, so, first things first: sometimes you do just have to explain something. It’s better if you can work explanations in, but people on this sub and on certain advice forums and YouTubes way overemphasize the necessity of avoiding info dumping. It’s one of those snippets of advice that a lot of people parrot as evergreen, without really thinking about it. A lot of fantasy/sci fi tries to work it in more naturally by having an ignorant perspective. If the character is just a simple peasant farmer or some poor kid, they may be learning about the world just as much as we are. One thing to ask — how much needs to be explained? And for what does need to be explained, does it need to be all at once? | Before you worry about this, first remember that your primary goal is not to tell your reader things, but to make them *want* to be told things. You are trying to plant *questions* for your story to answer. **NB:** An obvious exception to this principle is when you reveal facts that *overturn* your reader's current understanding. That's a twist, and for obvious reasons works just fine unannounced. An infodump, in the perjorative sense, is writing that piles the reader's plate with facts they don't know what to do with. *You* know (or think) the information is important, but your reader is nonplussed. If that's what's happening, then you're either telling your reader things too soon, or you haven't primed them properly. | 0 | 3,130 | 7.5 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | ira2csb | irabdo2 | 1,665,063,407 | 1,665,067,292 | 7 | 8 | The most legendary thing The Matrix pulled off was a severely complex setting, requiring vast amounts of information to understand. This is done without getting people very confused. Watch that. | One of the key factors is: always keep in mind what the characters in universe know. What does it make sense for them to know, and what doesn't? Do they expect others to know this information or not? These questions will effect how information is passed through dialogue. If the characters are talking about common knowledge that everyone is expected to know, they're not going to turn to someone and explain basic common sense. The ever popular "as you know" exposition dump is fully useless. Instead, characters will use the information they already know to have normal conversations, and the reader will have to garner clues from context. This is a much more natural and engaging way to give the reader information. On the flip side, this is why 'farm boy from bum-fuck nowhere' is an ever popular trope (being replaced in some circles by 'rando gets thrown into another world trope). Throwing an excusable ignorant character into an unfamiliar environment is the age old method of forcefeeding the audience exposition. The character needs it, so the audience gets to listen as this dude is spoonfed information. As you can tell, this method has mostly fallen out of style. Finally, we turn to the narration. Assuming you're using the method of having characters talk normally about things they know, when do you exposit in narration? My advice is to explain nothing in your first draft, hand it off to beta readers, and ask them if there are any parts they're confused about. The betas will point you to sections that need further elaboration. THAT is where you insert a snippet of exposition in the prose. | 0 | 3,885 | 1.142857 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | ir9obuk | irabdo2 | 1,665,056,022 | 1,665,067,292 | 6 | 8 | Does the audience absolutely need to know the information to understand/be engaged with the writing? If not then reveal it slowly piece by piece in thoughts, actions or speech. It's okay to have your reader questioning things because that keeps them reading and guessing until things get revealed. Good luck with your writing! | One of the key factors is: always keep in mind what the characters in universe know. What does it make sense for them to know, and what doesn't? Do they expect others to know this information or not? These questions will effect how information is passed through dialogue. If the characters are talking about common knowledge that everyone is expected to know, they're not going to turn to someone and explain basic common sense. The ever popular "as you know" exposition dump is fully useless. Instead, characters will use the information they already know to have normal conversations, and the reader will have to garner clues from context. This is a much more natural and engaging way to give the reader information. On the flip side, this is why 'farm boy from bum-fuck nowhere' is an ever popular trope (being replaced in some circles by 'rando gets thrown into another world trope). Throwing an excusable ignorant character into an unfamiliar environment is the age old method of forcefeeding the audience exposition. The character needs it, so the audience gets to listen as this dude is spoonfed information. As you can tell, this method has mostly fallen out of style. Finally, we turn to the narration. Assuming you're using the method of having characters talk normally about things they know, when do you exposit in narration? My advice is to explain nothing in your first draft, hand it off to beta readers, and ask them if there are any parts they're confused about. The betas will point you to sections that need further elaboration. THAT is where you insert a snippet of exposition in the prose. | 0 | 11,270 | 1.333333 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | irabdo2 | ira3tq5 | 1,665,067,292 | 1,665,064,070 | 8 | 4 | One of the key factors is: always keep in mind what the characters in universe know. What does it make sense for them to know, and what doesn't? Do they expect others to know this information or not? These questions will effect how information is passed through dialogue. If the characters are talking about common knowledge that everyone is expected to know, they're not going to turn to someone and explain basic common sense. The ever popular "as you know" exposition dump is fully useless. Instead, characters will use the information they already know to have normal conversations, and the reader will have to garner clues from context. This is a much more natural and engaging way to give the reader information. On the flip side, this is why 'farm boy from bum-fuck nowhere' is an ever popular trope (being replaced in some circles by 'rando gets thrown into another world trope). Throwing an excusable ignorant character into an unfamiliar environment is the age old method of forcefeeding the audience exposition. The character needs it, so the audience gets to listen as this dude is spoonfed information. As you can tell, this method has mostly fallen out of style. Finally, we turn to the narration. Assuming you're using the method of having characters talk normally about things they know, when do you exposit in narration? My advice is to explain nothing in your first draft, hand it off to beta readers, and ask them if there are any parts they're confused about. The betas will point you to sections that need further elaboration. THAT is where you insert a snippet of exposition in the prose. | Weave it into the narrative, drop hints, add it to natural dialogue, trust the reader and let them deduce | 1 | 3,222 | 2 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | ira5t94 | irabdo2 | 1,665,064,951 | 1,665,067,292 | 3 | 8 | You could try a soft magic system and simply avoid explaining the magic, leaving a lot of mystery which might interest the reader. | One of the key factors is: always keep in mind what the characters in universe know. What does it make sense for them to know, and what doesn't? Do they expect others to know this information or not? These questions will effect how information is passed through dialogue. If the characters are talking about common knowledge that everyone is expected to know, they're not going to turn to someone and explain basic common sense. The ever popular "as you know" exposition dump is fully useless. Instead, characters will use the information they already know to have normal conversations, and the reader will have to garner clues from context. This is a much more natural and engaging way to give the reader information. On the flip side, this is why 'farm boy from bum-fuck nowhere' is an ever popular trope (being replaced in some circles by 'rando gets thrown into another world trope). Throwing an excusable ignorant character into an unfamiliar environment is the age old method of forcefeeding the audience exposition. The character needs it, so the audience gets to listen as this dude is spoonfed information. As you can tell, this method has mostly fallen out of style. Finally, we turn to the narration. Assuming you're using the method of having characters talk normally about things they know, when do you exposit in narration? My advice is to explain nothing in your first draft, hand it off to beta readers, and ask them if there are any parts they're confused about. The betas will point you to sections that need further elaboration. THAT is where you insert a snippet of exposition in the prose. | 0 | 2,341 | 2.666667 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | irabdo2 | ir9mqho | 1,665,067,292 | 1,665,054,988 | 8 | 2 | One of the key factors is: always keep in mind what the characters in universe know. What does it make sense for them to know, and what doesn't? Do they expect others to know this information or not? These questions will effect how information is passed through dialogue. If the characters are talking about common knowledge that everyone is expected to know, they're not going to turn to someone and explain basic common sense. The ever popular "as you know" exposition dump is fully useless. Instead, characters will use the information they already know to have normal conversations, and the reader will have to garner clues from context. This is a much more natural and engaging way to give the reader information. On the flip side, this is why 'farm boy from bum-fuck nowhere' is an ever popular trope (being replaced in some circles by 'rando gets thrown into another world trope). Throwing an excusable ignorant character into an unfamiliar environment is the age old method of forcefeeding the audience exposition. The character needs it, so the audience gets to listen as this dude is spoonfed information. As you can tell, this method has mostly fallen out of style. Finally, we turn to the narration. Assuming you're using the method of having characters talk normally about things they know, when do you exposit in narration? My advice is to explain nothing in your first draft, hand it off to beta readers, and ask them if there are any parts they're confused about. The betas will point you to sections that need further elaboration. THAT is where you insert a snippet of exposition in the prose. | Okay, so, first things first: sometimes you do just have to explain something. It’s better if you can work explanations in, but people on this sub and on certain advice forums and YouTubes way overemphasize the necessity of avoiding info dumping. It’s one of those snippets of advice that a lot of people parrot as evergreen, without really thinking about it. A lot of fantasy/sci fi tries to work it in more naturally by having an ignorant perspective. If the character is just a simple peasant farmer or some poor kid, they may be learning about the world just as much as we are. One thing to ask — how much needs to be explained? And for what does need to be explained, does it need to be all at once? | 1 | 12,304 | 4 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | irabdo2 | ir9s6lj | 1,665,067,292 | 1,665,058,306 | 8 | 2 | One of the key factors is: always keep in mind what the characters in universe know. What does it make sense for them to know, and what doesn't? Do they expect others to know this information or not? These questions will effect how information is passed through dialogue. If the characters are talking about common knowledge that everyone is expected to know, they're not going to turn to someone and explain basic common sense. The ever popular "as you know" exposition dump is fully useless. Instead, characters will use the information they already know to have normal conversations, and the reader will have to garner clues from context. This is a much more natural and engaging way to give the reader information. On the flip side, this is why 'farm boy from bum-fuck nowhere' is an ever popular trope (being replaced in some circles by 'rando gets thrown into another world trope). Throwing an excusable ignorant character into an unfamiliar environment is the age old method of forcefeeding the audience exposition. The character needs it, so the audience gets to listen as this dude is spoonfed information. As you can tell, this method has mostly fallen out of style. Finally, we turn to the narration. Assuming you're using the method of having characters talk normally about things they know, when do you exposit in narration? My advice is to explain nothing in your first draft, hand it off to beta readers, and ask them if there are any parts they're confused about. The betas will point you to sections that need further elaboration. THAT is where you insert a snippet of exposition in the prose. | Ugh! What a great question. I struggle with this frequently. Others have mentioned this kind of approach, so I won't beat it to death, but if you can manage what I like to call "incremental revelation," you will get the most palatable result. Someone in the thread mentioned writing your info-dump out in a separate document and then pull from that along the story's natural arc. I like that a lot, because I find I need to get detailed information "out of my system" by just cranking it out all at once. Sometimes, I do that in a block of dialog and then go back and strike the whole thing because it sounds like the character is giving a sermon. That might be appropriate at times, depending on the story and the situation, but it's generally a bore to read. It sounds like you have kind of a "Yoda" in your story. In the Star Wars saga, Yoda shows up periodically and drops some wisdom on us. Over the course of the story, we not only get the info we need, but we learn a lot about that character. I know. Star Wars generally conjures up thoughts of cinema, but the concept still holds. Let your characters' experiences lead them to this elderly wise person and allow the information to dribble out in his advice. Some of this may necessarily get a little long-winded, but it could help to break up the monolithic block of data you are concerned about. | 1 | 8,986 | 4 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | ir9obuk | ira2csb | 1,665,056,022 | 1,665,063,407 | 6 | 7 | Does the audience absolutely need to know the information to understand/be engaged with the writing? If not then reveal it slowly piece by piece in thoughts, actions or speech. It's okay to have your reader questioning things because that keeps them reading and guessing until things get revealed. Good luck with your writing! | The most legendary thing The Matrix pulled off was a severely complex setting, requiring vast amounts of information to understand. This is done without getting people very confused. Watch that. | 0 | 7,385 | 1.166667 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | ir9mqho | ira2csb | 1,665,054,988 | 1,665,063,407 | 2 | 7 | Okay, so, first things first: sometimes you do just have to explain something. It’s better if you can work explanations in, but people on this sub and on certain advice forums and YouTubes way overemphasize the necessity of avoiding info dumping. It’s one of those snippets of advice that a lot of people parrot as evergreen, without really thinking about it. A lot of fantasy/sci fi tries to work it in more naturally by having an ignorant perspective. If the character is just a simple peasant farmer or some poor kid, they may be learning about the world just as much as we are. One thing to ask — how much needs to be explained? And for what does need to be explained, does it need to be all at once? | The most legendary thing The Matrix pulled off was a severely complex setting, requiring vast amounts of information to understand. This is done without getting people very confused. Watch that. | 0 | 8,419 | 3.5 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | ir9s6lj | ira2csb | 1,665,058,306 | 1,665,063,407 | 2 | 7 | Ugh! What a great question. I struggle with this frequently. Others have mentioned this kind of approach, so I won't beat it to death, but if you can manage what I like to call "incremental revelation," you will get the most palatable result. Someone in the thread mentioned writing your info-dump out in a separate document and then pull from that along the story's natural arc. I like that a lot, because I find I need to get detailed information "out of my system" by just cranking it out all at once. Sometimes, I do that in a block of dialog and then go back and strike the whole thing because it sounds like the character is giving a sermon. That might be appropriate at times, depending on the story and the situation, but it's generally a bore to read. It sounds like you have kind of a "Yoda" in your story. In the Star Wars saga, Yoda shows up periodically and drops some wisdom on us. Over the course of the story, we not only get the info we need, but we learn a lot about that character. I know. Star Wars generally conjures up thoughts of cinema, but the concept still holds. Let your characters' experiences lead them to this elderly wise person and allow the information to dribble out in his advice. Some of this may necessarily get a little long-winded, but it could help to break up the monolithic block of data you are concerned about. | The most legendary thing The Matrix pulled off was a severely complex setting, requiring vast amounts of information to understand. This is done without getting people very confused. Watch that. | 0 | 5,101 | 3.5 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | ir9mqho | ir9obuk | 1,665,054,988 | 1,665,056,022 | 2 | 6 | Okay, so, first things first: sometimes you do just have to explain something. It’s better if you can work explanations in, but people on this sub and on certain advice forums and YouTubes way overemphasize the necessity of avoiding info dumping. It’s one of those snippets of advice that a lot of people parrot as evergreen, without really thinking about it. A lot of fantasy/sci fi tries to work it in more naturally by having an ignorant perspective. If the character is just a simple peasant farmer or some poor kid, they may be learning about the world just as much as we are. One thing to ask — how much needs to be explained? And for what does need to be explained, does it need to be all at once? | Does the audience absolutely need to know the information to understand/be engaged with the writing? If not then reveal it slowly piece by piece in thoughts, actions or speech. It's okay to have your reader questioning things because that keeps them reading and guessing until things get revealed. Good luck with your writing! | 0 | 1,034 | 3 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | ira3tq5 | ir9mqho | 1,665,064,070 | 1,665,054,988 | 4 | 2 | Weave it into the narrative, drop hints, add it to natural dialogue, trust the reader and let them deduce | Okay, so, first things first: sometimes you do just have to explain something. It’s better if you can work explanations in, but people on this sub and on certain advice forums and YouTubes way overemphasize the necessity of avoiding info dumping. It’s one of those snippets of advice that a lot of people parrot as evergreen, without really thinking about it. A lot of fantasy/sci fi tries to work it in more naturally by having an ignorant perspective. If the character is just a simple peasant farmer or some poor kid, they may be learning about the world just as much as we are. One thing to ask — how much needs to be explained? And for what does need to be explained, does it need to be all at once? | 1 | 9,082 | 2 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | ir9s6lj | ira3tq5 | 1,665,058,306 | 1,665,064,070 | 2 | 4 | Ugh! What a great question. I struggle with this frequently. Others have mentioned this kind of approach, so I won't beat it to death, but if you can manage what I like to call "incremental revelation," you will get the most palatable result. Someone in the thread mentioned writing your info-dump out in a separate document and then pull from that along the story's natural arc. I like that a lot, because I find I need to get detailed information "out of my system" by just cranking it out all at once. Sometimes, I do that in a block of dialog and then go back and strike the whole thing because it sounds like the character is giving a sermon. That might be appropriate at times, depending on the story and the situation, but it's generally a bore to read. It sounds like you have kind of a "Yoda" in your story. In the Star Wars saga, Yoda shows up periodically and drops some wisdom on us. Over the course of the story, we not only get the info we need, but we learn a lot about that character. I know. Star Wars generally conjures up thoughts of cinema, but the concept still holds. Let your characters' experiences lead them to this elderly wise person and allow the information to dribble out in his advice. Some of this may necessarily get a little long-winded, but it could help to break up the monolithic block of data you are concerned about. | Weave it into the narrative, drop hints, add it to natural dialogue, trust the reader and let them deduce | 0 | 5,764 | 2 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | ira5t94 | irabike | 1,665,064,951 | 1,665,067,348 | 3 | 4 | You could try a soft magic system and simply avoid explaining the magic, leaving a lot of mystery which might interest the reader. | >I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? Chapter 7 of The Final Empire does exactly this and it's arguably one of the best scenes in the novel. What makes it great is that we were discovering the mechanics of Allomancy (the magic system) together with Vin (the apprentice). But we're not just sitting and listening to someone lecture. Kelsier (the master) tells Vin to metaphorically push a button and we see the effect a la RPG tutorial. Also the magic system had been teased but remained largely mysterious prior to the tutorial chapter. So when we finally discovered how everything works, it's a reward rather than an info dump. Also it helps that the magic system is logical and scientific so we have an action and reaction. If your magic system has "softer" rules, this kind of reveal may not be fit. Take the Wizard of Earthsea for example. The magic system is basically you need to know the true name of objects to manipulate them. The whole magic system isn't really explained. You just get chunks from time to time. Maybe in one chapter you learn about true names. Then in another chapter you learn limitations like why you can't create food out of nothing even if you know the true names. | 0 | 2,397 | 1.333333 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | ir9mqho | irabike | 1,665,054,988 | 1,665,067,348 | 2 | 4 | Okay, so, first things first: sometimes you do just have to explain something. It’s better if you can work explanations in, but people on this sub and on certain advice forums and YouTubes way overemphasize the necessity of avoiding info dumping. It’s one of those snippets of advice that a lot of people parrot as evergreen, without really thinking about it. A lot of fantasy/sci fi tries to work it in more naturally by having an ignorant perspective. If the character is just a simple peasant farmer or some poor kid, they may be learning about the world just as much as we are. One thing to ask — how much needs to be explained? And for what does need to be explained, does it need to be all at once? | >I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? Chapter 7 of The Final Empire does exactly this and it's arguably one of the best scenes in the novel. What makes it great is that we were discovering the mechanics of Allomancy (the magic system) together with Vin (the apprentice). But we're not just sitting and listening to someone lecture. Kelsier (the master) tells Vin to metaphorically push a button and we see the effect a la RPG tutorial. Also the magic system had been teased but remained largely mysterious prior to the tutorial chapter. So when we finally discovered how everything works, it's a reward rather than an info dump. Also it helps that the magic system is logical and scientific so we have an action and reaction. If your magic system has "softer" rules, this kind of reveal may not be fit. Take the Wizard of Earthsea for example. The magic system is basically you need to know the true name of objects to manipulate them. The whole magic system isn't really explained. You just get chunks from time to time. Maybe in one chapter you learn about true names. Then in another chapter you learn limitations like why you can't create food out of nothing even if you know the true names. | 0 | 12,360 | 2 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | ir9s6lj | irabike | 1,665,058,306 | 1,665,067,348 | 2 | 4 | Ugh! What a great question. I struggle with this frequently. Others have mentioned this kind of approach, so I won't beat it to death, but if you can manage what I like to call "incremental revelation," you will get the most palatable result. Someone in the thread mentioned writing your info-dump out in a separate document and then pull from that along the story's natural arc. I like that a lot, because I find I need to get detailed information "out of my system" by just cranking it out all at once. Sometimes, I do that in a block of dialog and then go back and strike the whole thing because it sounds like the character is giving a sermon. That might be appropriate at times, depending on the story and the situation, but it's generally a bore to read. It sounds like you have kind of a "Yoda" in your story. In the Star Wars saga, Yoda shows up periodically and drops some wisdom on us. Over the course of the story, we not only get the info we need, but we learn a lot about that character. I know. Star Wars generally conjures up thoughts of cinema, but the concept still holds. Let your characters' experiences lead them to this elderly wise person and allow the information to dribble out in his advice. Some of this may necessarily get a little long-winded, but it could help to break up the monolithic block of data you are concerned about. | >I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? Chapter 7 of The Final Empire does exactly this and it's arguably one of the best scenes in the novel. What makes it great is that we were discovering the mechanics of Allomancy (the magic system) together with Vin (the apprentice). But we're not just sitting and listening to someone lecture. Kelsier (the master) tells Vin to metaphorically push a button and we see the effect a la RPG tutorial. Also the magic system had been teased but remained largely mysterious prior to the tutorial chapter. So when we finally discovered how everything works, it's a reward rather than an info dump. Also it helps that the magic system is logical and scientific so we have an action and reaction. If your magic system has "softer" rules, this kind of reveal may not be fit. Take the Wizard of Earthsea for example. The magic system is basically you need to know the true name of objects to manipulate them. The whole magic system isn't really explained. You just get chunks from time to time. Maybe in one chapter you learn about true names. Then in another chapter you learn limitations like why you can't create food out of nothing even if you know the true names. | 0 | 9,042 | 2 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | ir9mqho | ira5t94 | 1,665,054,988 | 1,665,064,951 | 2 | 3 | Okay, so, first things first: sometimes you do just have to explain something. It’s better if you can work explanations in, but people on this sub and on certain advice forums and YouTubes way overemphasize the necessity of avoiding info dumping. It’s one of those snippets of advice that a lot of people parrot as evergreen, without really thinking about it. A lot of fantasy/sci fi tries to work it in more naturally by having an ignorant perspective. If the character is just a simple peasant farmer or some poor kid, they may be learning about the world just as much as we are. One thing to ask — how much needs to be explained? And for what does need to be explained, does it need to be all at once? | You could try a soft magic system and simply avoid explaining the magic, leaving a lot of mystery which might interest the reader. | 0 | 9,963 | 1.5 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | ira5t94 | ir9s6lj | 1,665,064,951 | 1,665,058,306 | 3 | 2 | You could try a soft magic system and simply avoid explaining the magic, leaving a lot of mystery which might interest the reader. | Ugh! What a great question. I struggle with this frequently. Others have mentioned this kind of approach, so I won't beat it to death, but if you can manage what I like to call "incremental revelation," you will get the most palatable result. Someone in the thread mentioned writing your info-dump out in a separate document and then pull from that along the story's natural arc. I like that a lot, because I find I need to get detailed information "out of my system" by just cranking it out all at once. Sometimes, I do that in a block of dialog and then go back and strike the whole thing because it sounds like the character is giving a sermon. That might be appropriate at times, depending on the story and the situation, but it's generally a bore to read. It sounds like you have kind of a "Yoda" in your story. In the Star Wars saga, Yoda shows up periodically and drops some wisdom on us. Over the course of the story, we not only get the info we need, but we learn a lot about that character. I know. Star Wars generally conjures up thoughts of cinema, but the concept still holds. Let your characters' experiences lead them to this elderly wise person and allow the information to dribble out in his advice. Some of this may necessarily get a little long-winded, but it could help to break up the monolithic block of data you are concerned about. | 1 | 6,645 | 1.5 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | irahjb8 | irac4gd | 1,665,069,774 | 1,665,067,596 | 2 | 1 | The best way to give exposition is to do it in a way that heightens the conflict and moves the story forward. Doing it in this way makes the readers unaware they are being given exposition. The scene where Morpheus explains the matrix to Neo doesn't feel like a info dump, because this revelation shatters Neo's worldview and forces him to change his beliefs and make a choice, a pivotal moment in his character development and the story. | Interweave and sprinkle only the information your readers really need. A key technique for avoiding information dumping is to give your readers exactly what they need, when they need it. This could mean spreading information across many different sections, or skipping some parts entirely. | 1 | 2,178 | 2 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | iramhf3 | irac4gd | 1,665,071,710 | 1,665,067,596 | 2 | 1 | I wish I had more time to give you in detail advice but for now I’ll just say this, watch anime’s with copious amounts of exposition and you should narratively traumatize yourself along the path to success. | Interweave and sprinkle only the information your readers really need. A key technique for avoiding information dumping is to give your readers exactly what they need, when they need it. This could mean spreading information across many different sections, or skipping some parts entirely. | 1 | 4,114 | 2 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | irahjea | iramhf3 | 1,665,069,775 | 1,665,071,710 | 1 | 2 | Just make your info dump a story instead of a cooking recipe: Cooking recipe: The village of Kryl was located near the Prussian border, within the Polish land, but too far to be helped by the Polish army since the war had weakened their positions. The village was currently under the command of a group of ex Prussian soldiers who were ruling like crimelords. Story: The rain was storming outside of the inn. The roof was leaking, and a bucket was on the floor to catch the leak. Aside from the usual locals, a few sell swords were eating at the inn. A meal for which they had not pay. Since the battle of June 1148, the polish forces were weakened, and the farthest village had been left for themselves. Located near the Prussian border was the village of Kryl. Old Prussian soldiers who had run out of work made one for themselves and as they chased the thieves and the criminals, they took their place. Info dump doesn't need to be boring to read. edit: As for your case, I would make someone miss use the magic and get injured by it. Then someone could find them and try to help them to carry the story. This way you have an incomplete description, and you have mystery instead of info dump. | I wish I had more time to give you in detail advice but for now I’ll just say this, watch anime’s with copious amounts of exposition and you should narratively traumatize yourself along the path to success. | 0 | 1,935 | 2 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | iramhf3 | irak72l | 1,665,071,710 | 1,665,070,817 | 2 | 1 | I wish I had more time to give you in detail advice but for now I’ll just say this, watch anime’s with copious amounts of exposition and you should narratively traumatize yourself along the path to success. | A common thing in TV shows is the first episode starts with an important character's first day, which conveniently allows in-story explanations and characters talking about other characters. | 1 | 893 | 2 | ||
xx28n2 | writing_train | 0.92 | How do you reveal information without info-dumping? How do I realistically explain something? For example let's say there's some magic powers nobody really understands, so how do I explain that to the reader? I feel like making some elderly all-knowing person just explain it all in one go would be info-dumping which is bad, right? | iramhf3 | irakcrb | 1,665,071,710 | 1,665,070,879 | 2 | 1 | I wish I had more time to give you in detail advice but for now I’ll just say this, watch anime’s with copious amounts of exposition and you should narratively traumatize yourself along the path to success. | First of all write out how the power works. It could be in the form of the hypothetical info dump, a stat block, bullet pointed notes. Form matters less than you understanding the power and having a point of reference. And exposition dumps aren't inherently bad but your characters need to work for them. The information needs to feel like a pay-off not a cop-out. If discovering how the power works is one of the key questions of the story have them chase down many leads untill they discover the person who knows what's going on or *finaly* track down a copy of the one obscure old text that gives the answer. Say you just need to explain that no one knows how the power works. You could have a dialogue scene where characters debate theories about (name of power) and someone finaly points out to close the debate "nobody actualy knows how (name of power) works." Or if you're in a modern-ish setting have a character vent after going down an internet rabbithole and coming up with bupkus. If you have a character who has the power they could start taking a scientific aproach and start investigating the power as they learn to use it. Plus your explanation character doesn't have to be right. They don't have be lying, just wrong and doing something right by accident. An IRL example is the Miasma theory of disease. Disease isn't spread by stank, it's spread by germs. But rotting human and animal corpses and waste stink to high heaven and are major sources of disease causing microbes. The proponents of miasma theory petitioned hard for public sanitation and saved countless lives because of it. Just not for the reason they thought they were. | 1 | 831 | 2 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtm1j9h | gtm25i8 | 1,617,741,419 | 1,617,741,693 | 1 | 3 | I just used it. But then it was a robot, so I'm not sure that counts. | I come from culture with gender neutral pronouns. Never was a problem for me. | 0 | 274 | 3 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtmz2rz | gtm7wbb | 1,617,757,912 | 1,617,744,265 | 3 | 1 | There's a podcast called *Campaign: Skyjacks* which is the sequel podcast to *Campaign.* There's a character who uses "they" pronouns. And the characters in the podcast are pretty good about using "they" pronouns to describe this character. So that's a good example. After that it takes a lot of practice. If it's not something you're used to, practice will give you familiarity. It can be a struggle sometimes. | The use of they/them for singular in English is becoming more normalized; it could just be that you're not used to it, which is why it feels odd. Because it is a newer concept, at least outside of writing that centers on an LGBTQ+ audience, you may have trouble finding examples in the mainstream. Passive voice might be an option in some cases, depending on what's happening in the story, but I say to go ahead and stick with they/them in there as needed as well as the advice that u/RoMulPruzah gave. | 1 | 13,647 | 3 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtmz2rz | gtm4u5v | 1,617,757,912 | 1,617,742,861 | 3 | 1 | There's a podcast called *Campaign: Skyjacks* which is the sequel podcast to *Campaign.* There's a character who uses "they" pronouns. And the characters in the podcast are pretty good about using "they" pronouns to describe this character. So that's a good example. After that it takes a lot of practice. If it's not something you're used to, practice will give you familiarity. It can be a struggle sometimes. | We're talking about only one mystery person in a society that uses pronouns conventionally? Everyone around the Mystery Character will ask about or assume a gender and use that one. Presumably, the Mystery Character also has an opinion on this issue. So if you want it to be germane to the story, it's tricky. If it's just a narrative affectation, where everyone in the story knows the score and you're just keeping the reader in the dark, it's even trickier. Surprise endings, like "and under all that armor, Joan of Arc was a GIRL!" were hackneyed even a century ago. | 1 | 15,051 | 3 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtmz2rz | gtmh0jp | 1,617,757,912 | 1,617,748,720 | 3 | 1 | There's a podcast called *Campaign: Skyjacks* which is the sequel podcast to *Campaign.* There's a character who uses "they" pronouns. And the characters in the podcast are pretty good about using "they" pronouns to describe this character. So that's a good example. After that it takes a lot of practice. If it's not something you're used to, practice will give you familiarity. It can be a struggle sometimes. | I've used xe/xir a lot out of pure desperation. I just think they/them is so awkward 😐 Edit: Could the people downvoting all replies in this thread simply explain their reasoning? | 1 | 9,192 | 3 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtm1j9h | gtmz2rz | 1,617,741,419 | 1,617,757,912 | 1 | 3 | I just used it. But then it was a robot, so I'm not sure that counts. | There's a podcast called *Campaign: Skyjacks* which is the sequel podcast to *Campaign.* There's a character who uses "they" pronouns. And the characters in the podcast are pretty good about using "they" pronouns to describe this character. So that's a good example. After that it takes a lot of practice. If it's not something you're used to, practice will give you familiarity. It can be a struggle sometimes. | 0 | 16,493 | 3 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtmz2rz | gtmczb5 | 1,617,757,912 | 1,617,746,685 | 3 | 0 | There's a podcast called *Campaign: Skyjacks* which is the sequel podcast to *Campaign.* There's a character who uses "they" pronouns. And the characters in the podcast are pretty good about using "they" pronouns to describe this character. So that's a good example. After that it takes a lot of practice. If it's not something you're used to, practice will give you familiarity. It can be a struggle sometimes. | You've basically got it figured out, you just use they/them pronouns and reword the sentence whenever it's not clear what you mean. It's a bit tricky to get used to, but it's not really any different from the difficulty of clarifying what you mean when there are multiple characters in the same scene who use the same pronouns. This goes whether the character's gender is unknown, or they don't have a gender, or they're nonbinary, or whatever it is It might seem weird on your end but the thing is that reader's rarely notice or think about this sort of thing. Notice how many people think that singular they is a new and strange idea because they've just never noticed how often they use it in regular conversation. If you want an example, the book "River of Teeth" by Sarah Gailey has a nonbinary character in it, for one example. It was never confusing for me to read, and it's not even the most artfully written book or anything. | 1 | 11,227 | 3,000 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtmz2rz | gtmfm0w | 1,617,757,912 | 1,617,748,005 | 3 | 0 | There's a podcast called *Campaign: Skyjacks* which is the sequel podcast to *Campaign.* There's a character who uses "they" pronouns. And the characters in the podcast are pretty good about using "they" pronouns to describe this character. So that's a good example. After that it takes a lot of practice. If it's not something you're used to, practice will give you familiarity. It can be a struggle sometimes. | I don't actually think it reads strangely. They/them has been used forever as a gender-neutral pronoun (i.e. "Someone forgot their books on their desk.") It's just that you're not used to reading it when referencing a person you know more about. | 1 | 9,907 | 3,000 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtn4iao | gtm7wbb | 1,617,760,665 | 1,617,744,265 | 3 | 1 | In my current work in progress I created a non-binary character for precisely that reason. I am not used to using they and them as pronouns but I feel I ought to be, at the beginning I often gendered the character (they have a complex background and started off as a trans-woman before I decided they would a be non-binary character) but after 150,000 words spent with that character now I don’t even have to think about they and them as pronouns, my brain has adjusted which was precisely why I created the character. I have a friend who has recently come out as non-binary and they have been invaluable in giving me advice about the character, and they also proof read the second draft for me and gave me some lovely feedback. When I started doing it using they and them it felt weird because it felt as though it was plural rather than singular, but I got used to it and now it just works. I’m sure if you practice writing for a non-binary character it will become easier for you as well. Good luck. | The use of they/them for singular in English is becoming more normalized; it could just be that you're not used to it, which is why it feels odd. Because it is a newer concept, at least outside of writing that centers on an LGBTQ+ audience, you may have trouble finding examples in the mainstream. Passive voice might be an option in some cases, depending on what's happening in the story, but I say to go ahead and stick with they/them in there as needed as well as the advice that u/RoMulPruzah gave. | 1 | 16,400 | 3 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtm4u5v | gtn4iao | 1,617,742,861 | 1,617,760,665 | 1 | 3 | We're talking about only one mystery person in a society that uses pronouns conventionally? Everyone around the Mystery Character will ask about or assume a gender and use that one. Presumably, the Mystery Character also has an opinion on this issue. So if you want it to be germane to the story, it's tricky. If it's just a narrative affectation, where everyone in the story knows the score and you're just keeping the reader in the dark, it's even trickier. Surprise endings, like "and under all that armor, Joan of Arc was a GIRL!" were hackneyed even a century ago. | In my current work in progress I created a non-binary character for precisely that reason. I am not used to using they and them as pronouns but I feel I ought to be, at the beginning I often gendered the character (they have a complex background and started off as a trans-woman before I decided they would a be non-binary character) but after 150,000 words spent with that character now I don’t even have to think about they and them as pronouns, my brain has adjusted which was precisely why I created the character. I have a friend who has recently come out as non-binary and they have been invaluable in giving me advice about the character, and they also proof read the second draft for me and gave me some lovely feedback. When I started doing it using they and them it felt weird because it felt as though it was plural rather than singular, but I got used to it and now it just works. I’m sure if you practice writing for a non-binary character it will become easier for you as well. Good luck. | 0 | 17,804 | 3 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtn4iao | gtmh0jp | 1,617,760,665 | 1,617,748,720 | 3 | 1 | In my current work in progress I created a non-binary character for precisely that reason. I am not used to using they and them as pronouns but I feel I ought to be, at the beginning I often gendered the character (they have a complex background and started off as a trans-woman before I decided they would a be non-binary character) but after 150,000 words spent with that character now I don’t even have to think about they and them as pronouns, my brain has adjusted which was precisely why I created the character. I have a friend who has recently come out as non-binary and they have been invaluable in giving me advice about the character, and they also proof read the second draft for me and gave me some lovely feedback. When I started doing it using they and them it felt weird because it felt as though it was plural rather than singular, but I got used to it and now it just works. I’m sure if you practice writing for a non-binary character it will become easier for you as well. Good luck. | I've used xe/xir a lot out of pure desperation. I just think they/them is so awkward 😐 Edit: Could the people downvoting all replies in this thread simply explain their reasoning? | 1 | 11,945 | 3 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtn4iao | gtm1j9h | 1,617,760,665 | 1,617,741,419 | 3 | 1 | In my current work in progress I created a non-binary character for precisely that reason. I am not used to using they and them as pronouns but I feel I ought to be, at the beginning I often gendered the character (they have a complex background and started off as a trans-woman before I decided they would a be non-binary character) but after 150,000 words spent with that character now I don’t even have to think about they and them as pronouns, my brain has adjusted which was precisely why I created the character. I have a friend who has recently come out as non-binary and they have been invaluable in giving me advice about the character, and they also proof read the second draft for me and gave me some lovely feedback. When I started doing it using they and them it felt weird because it felt as though it was plural rather than singular, but I got used to it and now it just works. I’m sure if you practice writing for a non-binary character it will become easier for you as well. Good luck. | I just used it. But then it was a robot, so I'm not sure that counts. | 1 | 19,246 | 3 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtmczb5 | gtn4iao | 1,617,746,685 | 1,617,760,665 | 0 | 3 | You've basically got it figured out, you just use they/them pronouns and reword the sentence whenever it's not clear what you mean. It's a bit tricky to get used to, but it's not really any different from the difficulty of clarifying what you mean when there are multiple characters in the same scene who use the same pronouns. This goes whether the character's gender is unknown, or they don't have a gender, or they're nonbinary, or whatever it is It might seem weird on your end but the thing is that reader's rarely notice or think about this sort of thing. Notice how many people think that singular they is a new and strange idea because they've just never noticed how often they use it in regular conversation. If you want an example, the book "River of Teeth" by Sarah Gailey has a nonbinary character in it, for one example. It was never confusing for me to read, and it's not even the most artfully written book or anything. | In my current work in progress I created a non-binary character for precisely that reason. I am not used to using they and them as pronouns but I feel I ought to be, at the beginning I often gendered the character (they have a complex background and started off as a trans-woman before I decided they would a be non-binary character) but after 150,000 words spent with that character now I don’t even have to think about they and them as pronouns, my brain has adjusted which was precisely why I created the character. I have a friend who has recently come out as non-binary and they have been invaluable in giving me advice about the character, and they also proof read the second draft for me and gave me some lovely feedback. When I started doing it using they and them it felt weird because it felt as though it was plural rather than singular, but I got used to it and now it just works. I’m sure if you practice writing for a non-binary character it will become easier for you as well. Good luck. | 0 | 13,980 | 3,000 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtmfm0w | gtn4iao | 1,617,748,005 | 1,617,760,665 | 0 | 3 | I don't actually think it reads strangely. They/them has been used forever as a gender-neutral pronoun (i.e. "Someone forgot their books on their desk.") It's just that you're not used to reading it when referencing a person you know more about. | In my current work in progress I created a non-binary character for precisely that reason. I am not used to using they and them as pronouns but I feel I ought to be, at the beginning I often gendered the character (they have a complex background and started off as a trans-woman before I decided they would a be non-binary character) but after 150,000 words spent with that character now I don’t even have to think about they and them as pronouns, my brain has adjusted which was precisely why I created the character. I have a friend who has recently come out as non-binary and they have been invaluable in giving me advice about the character, and they also proof read the second draft for me and gave me some lovely feedback. When I started doing it using they and them it felt weird because it felt as though it was plural rather than singular, but I got used to it and now it just works. I’m sure if you practice writing for a non-binary character it will become easier for you as well. Good luck. | 0 | 12,660 | 3,000 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtnuhkv | gtm7wbb | 1,617,778,086 | 1,617,744,265 | 2 | 1 | Thon is an old gender neutral pronoun. It's a bit obscure nowadays, but if you need something distinct from plural they/them, this is what I'd recommend. | The use of they/them for singular in English is becoming more normalized; it could just be that you're not used to it, which is why it feels odd. Because it is a newer concept, at least outside of writing that centers on an LGBTQ+ audience, you may have trouble finding examples in the mainstream. Passive voice might be an option in some cases, depending on what's happening in the story, but I say to go ahead and stick with they/them in there as needed as well as the advice that u/RoMulPruzah gave. | 1 | 33,821 | 2 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtm4u5v | gtnuhkv | 1,617,742,861 | 1,617,778,086 | 1 | 2 | We're talking about only one mystery person in a society that uses pronouns conventionally? Everyone around the Mystery Character will ask about or assume a gender and use that one. Presumably, the Mystery Character also has an opinion on this issue. So if you want it to be germane to the story, it's tricky. If it's just a narrative affectation, where everyone in the story knows the score and you're just keeping the reader in the dark, it's even trickier. Surprise endings, like "and under all that armor, Joan of Arc was a GIRL!" were hackneyed even a century ago. | Thon is an old gender neutral pronoun. It's a bit obscure nowadays, but if you need something distinct from plural they/them, this is what I'd recommend. | 0 | 35,225 | 2 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtnuhkv | gtmh0jp | 1,617,778,086 | 1,617,748,720 | 2 | 1 | Thon is an old gender neutral pronoun. It's a bit obscure nowadays, but if you need something distinct from plural they/them, this is what I'd recommend. | I've used xe/xir a lot out of pure desperation. I just think they/them is so awkward 😐 Edit: Could the people downvoting all replies in this thread simply explain their reasoning? | 1 | 29,366 | 2 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtm1j9h | gtnuhkv | 1,617,741,419 | 1,617,778,086 | 1 | 2 | I just used it. But then it was a robot, so I'm not sure that counts. | Thon is an old gender neutral pronoun. It's a bit obscure nowadays, but if you need something distinct from plural they/them, this is what I'd recommend. | 0 | 36,667 | 2 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtnuhkv | gtmczb5 | 1,617,778,086 | 1,617,746,685 | 2 | 0 | Thon is an old gender neutral pronoun. It's a bit obscure nowadays, but if you need something distinct from plural they/them, this is what I'd recommend. | You've basically got it figured out, you just use they/them pronouns and reword the sentence whenever it's not clear what you mean. It's a bit tricky to get used to, but it's not really any different from the difficulty of clarifying what you mean when there are multiple characters in the same scene who use the same pronouns. This goes whether the character's gender is unknown, or they don't have a gender, or they're nonbinary, or whatever it is It might seem weird on your end but the thing is that reader's rarely notice or think about this sort of thing. Notice how many people think that singular they is a new and strange idea because they've just never noticed how often they use it in regular conversation. If you want an example, the book "River of Teeth" by Sarah Gailey has a nonbinary character in it, for one example. It was never confusing for me to read, and it's not even the most artfully written book or anything. | 1 | 31,401 | 2,000 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtmfm0w | gtnuhkv | 1,617,748,005 | 1,617,778,086 | 0 | 2 | I don't actually think it reads strangely. They/them has been used forever as a gender-neutral pronoun (i.e. "Someone forgot their books on their desk.") It's just that you're not used to reading it when referencing a person you know more about. | Thon is an old gender neutral pronoun. It's a bit obscure nowadays, but if you need something distinct from plural they/them, this is what I'd recommend. | 0 | 30,081 | 2,000 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtnitcv | gtnuhkv | 1,617,768,964 | 1,617,778,086 | 1 | 2 | John Scalzi's Head On has a main character, Chris, whose gender is never revealed. I wrote a novel which does this for about a third of it. One thing I'll say is that it's a lot easier if the story is told in the first person and the narrator is the person whose gender isn't revealed. You can use I, me, and mine instead of gendered pronouns. | Thon is an old gender neutral pronoun. It's a bit obscure nowadays, but if you need something distinct from plural they/them, this is what I'd recommend. | 0 | 9,122 | 2 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtmczb5 | gtmh0jp | 1,617,746,685 | 1,617,748,720 | 0 | 1 | You've basically got it figured out, you just use they/them pronouns and reword the sentence whenever it's not clear what you mean. It's a bit tricky to get used to, but it's not really any different from the difficulty of clarifying what you mean when there are multiple characters in the same scene who use the same pronouns. This goes whether the character's gender is unknown, or they don't have a gender, or they're nonbinary, or whatever it is It might seem weird on your end but the thing is that reader's rarely notice or think about this sort of thing. Notice how many people think that singular they is a new and strange idea because they've just never noticed how often they use it in regular conversation. If you want an example, the book "River of Teeth" by Sarah Gailey has a nonbinary character in it, for one example. It was never confusing for me to read, and it's not even the most artfully written book or anything. | I've used xe/xir a lot out of pure desperation. I just think they/them is so awkward 😐 Edit: Could the people downvoting all replies in this thread simply explain their reasoning? | 0 | 2,035 | 1,000 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtmh0jp | gtmfm0w | 1,617,748,720 | 1,617,748,005 | 1 | 0 | I've used xe/xir a lot out of pure desperation. I just think they/them is so awkward 😐 Edit: Could the people downvoting all replies in this thread simply explain their reasoning? | I don't actually think it reads strangely. They/them has been used forever as a gender-neutral pronoun (i.e. "Someone forgot their books on their desk.") It's just that you're not used to reading it when referencing a person you know more about. | 1 | 715 | 1,000 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtnitcv | gtmczb5 | 1,617,768,964 | 1,617,746,685 | 1 | 0 | John Scalzi's Head On has a main character, Chris, whose gender is never revealed. I wrote a novel which does this for about a third of it. One thing I'll say is that it's a lot easier if the story is told in the first person and the narrator is the person whose gender isn't revealed. You can use I, me, and mine instead of gendered pronouns. | You've basically got it figured out, you just use they/them pronouns and reword the sentence whenever it's not clear what you mean. It's a bit tricky to get used to, but it's not really any different from the difficulty of clarifying what you mean when there are multiple characters in the same scene who use the same pronouns. This goes whether the character's gender is unknown, or they don't have a gender, or they're nonbinary, or whatever it is It might seem weird on your end but the thing is that reader's rarely notice or think about this sort of thing. Notice how many people think that singular they is a new and strange idea because they've just never noticed how often they use it in regular conversation. If you want an example, the book "River of Teeth" by Sarah Gailey has a nonbinary character in it, for one example. It was never confusing for me to read, and it's not even the most artfully written book or anything. | 1 | 22,279 | 1,000 | ||
mlktzs | writing_train | 0.66 | How do y'all write for a "character" without gender using they/them pronouns? As the title says. This evening I decided to try writing something for the first time in a while. As I started writing an essay critiquing myself I considered the tone, message, criticisms might apply to anyone and tried to switch things up to remove any reference to myself and remove the he/him pronouns of this... mystery person. It seems that the they/them pronouns don't fit so cleanly into the writing as a direct replacement and require a change of wording, changing words to and from they're plural form, etc. But I also noticed that it does not read as well when this individual is referenced alongside others, groups and even objects... is there a way to work around this? Am I missing something obvious? ALSO does anyone have any examples of works written without directly acknowledging the "character" and/or using they/them pronouns? Cheers! | gtmfm0w | gtnitcv | 1,617,748,005 | 1,617,768,964 | 0 | 1 | I don't actually think it reads strangely. They/them has been used forever as a gender-neutral pronoun (i.e. "Someone forgot their books on their desk.") It's just that you're not used to reading it when referencing a person you know more about. | John Scalzi's Head On has a main character, Chris, whose gender is never revealed. I wrote a novel which does this for about a third of it. One thing I'll say is that it's a lot easier if the story is told in the first person and the narrator is the person whose gender isn't revealed. You can use I, me, and mine instead of gendered pronouns. | 0 | 20,959 | 1,000 | ||
ok7psl | writing_train | 0.86 | How do you tell if what you write is too pointless or too 'written'? I've been interested in a lot of conversation based media, (which sounds very vague and technically everything with dialogue is conversation based, but) movies, games, books that could be typically described as two people talking the entire time. Most choice based games, especially Firewatch, or movies like Before Sunrise. And, of course, I'm trying to write what I'm interested in. But I'm unsure how to determine what dialogue is important. Conversations in real life are often very fluid and ride the line between pointless and meaningful, usually falling on the side of pointless in a person's greater life. In trying to counteract bad examples I've seen in media, where every single word is a metaphor or foreshadowing or plot relevant, I can't decide at what point the conversation become pointless in the terms of a story. When writing a conversation, where is the line between too 'written' and too pointless? How do you find a balance, and how can one be sure that they've found it? And then with that, is this question answerable? As with most questions about art, is it too open ended, based on every writer's preferences? Even still, I'd love to hear personal opinions. Thank you greatly to anyone who responds!! | h567khu | h56hjiz | 1,626,281,243 | 1,626,285,593 | 2 | 3 | I have the same problem and I chalk it up to stylistic differences in the long run. However, for the sake of convention (which is important), I think it's important to recognize stories are constructs and not actual representations of reality. It's true that people have dumb, meaningless, conversations in reality, but the audience is interested in whatever dialogue moves the story forward. However, another dimension, to address the too on the money position, dialogue can exist to enhance the mood, set the scene, or serve as a bridge of focus. For instance, a character saying "hi" is pretty neutral, pointless, and has been seen dozens of times, but if a character is doing something and someone says hi to them, it serves to transition more innoculously into a dialogue heavy scene. Dialogue used to talk about a party might add to the atmosphere before diving into the more contrived parts. Personally, I go into any conversation knowing the contrived parts and looking for natural openings as to how and why characters may be talking about this subject. In that way, I guess I prefer to center on the contrived dialogue (because it's necessary to forward important plot and theme) and then use a lot of obfuscation to conceal it within a situation that meets the audiences suspension of disbelief. Also, not entirely related, but one of the worst offenders of contrived dialogue (to me) is the show Hannibal. I know people love that show, but I was rolling my eyes any time someone spoke. | >The Conversations in real life are often very fluid and ride the line between pointless and meaningful, usually falling on the side of pointless in a person's greater life. I'd say this is true, but it's a red herring for writers. It doesn't give you free license to write dialogue just to write dialogue and you're right for sensing the newbie trap. Some would argue against this from a postmodernist stream-of-thought style, but from a more minimalist (but not overly so, imo) perspective, this is my take on it: I'm looking over a few books I've read recently: Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin, Black Wings has my Angel by Elliot Chaze, The Big Sleep by Raymond Chandler, Hamlet by Shakespeare, Joe by Larry Brown I think every single line of dialogue without fail has purpose for the scenes they're in. The answer to this question is in having the same professional skill they have of using subtext to capture a quality of verisimilitude but also doing the double work of developing or conveying a thematic point, or other goals (like characterization). Good dialogue works on the surface level and the subtext level. An early part of Hamlet is the prince grieving for his dead father. But, it's also him deliberately displaying his mourning to show his contempt for the queen who remarried immediately after his father's death. So I think Shakespeare is a great exemplar of this. He wrote for the layman his whole career, but also for the most educated audience of his era, King James. So I think that's just a generally great writing philosophy: writing naturally with theme/symbols/metaphors/foil relationships/foreshadowing integrated in the subtext. Something that appeals to both the casual reader and the sensitive reader. That's how you write something that seems 'pointless' - capturing that lifelike feel - but at the same time doing a lot of things under the radar, without it being obnoxious. (tangent, this is why as a reader I like genre fiction with literary qualities, more than straight literary fiction, in most cases. they allow you to choose your engagement level). I say all of that because I think it's good to develop this skill - however, I would agree there will dialogue that is 'pointless', in the sense of the actual words spoken. But they should not be pointless narratively - those are different things. It should still show up in the right place in the story. Dialogue is important to fill out scene. So if characters are in a falling action 'downtime' moment or not worried about something looming -> they can shoot the shit. But it should be written with reference to the overall work, pacing-wise, and make the scene feel balanced, and I would still try to see about displaying their character traits or attitudes. We want literary realism, not reality. Reality is millions of people who don't have one interesting quality, nothing happening for years, no drama or really bad drama etc. | 0 | 4,350 | 1.5 | ||
ok7psl | writing_train | 0.86 | How do you tell if what you write is too pointless or too 'written'? I've been interested in a lot of conversation based media, (which sounds very vague and technically everything with dialogue is conversation based, but) movies, games, books that could be typically described as two people talking the entire time. Most choice based games, especially Firewatch, or movies like Before Sunrise. And, of course, I'm trying to write what I'm interested in. But I'm unsure how to determine what dialogue is important. Conversations in real life are often very fluid and ride the line between pointless and meaningful, usually falling on the side of pointless in a person's greater life. In trying to counteract bad examples I've seen in media, where every single word is a metaphor or foreshadowing or plot relevant, I can't decide at what point the conversation become pointless in the terms of a story. When writing a conversation, where is the line between too 'written' and too pointless? How do you find a balance, and how can one be sure that they've found it? And then with that, is this question answerable? As with most questions about art, is it too open ended, based on every writer's preferences? Even still, I'd love to hear personal opinions. Thank you greatly to anyone who responds!! | h57cs0q | h567khu | 1,626,299,618 | 1,626,281,243 | 3 | 2 | Interesting when you say pointless- ready for opinion time?- nothing, in media, should be pointless. The words, the dialogue itself, can be pointless, but if it hits the tone you are going for, that gives it purpose for the narrative. Characterization isn’t just talking about the characters backstory, it is observed and reinforced in how the character talks and reacts and thinks, if we are privy to that. Whatever plot points obviously, but if you are spending many conversations reinforcing the same character traits, you might be heading towards too much. If talk only happens when there is plot ™ to be had, perhaps you’re bordering on stiff and unnatural. By the very nature of media, the consumer is observing the important bits. Why does the story start where it does? Because there is something to see. Why does a story end? Because we have seen all the important parts already. In a good story where you start, where you end, and every scene in-between has a purpose, but with varying weight. Not every moment has stakes, but we are privy to it for a reason- we don’t read long, exhaustive descriptions of a person sleeping. If we do, something important is being conveyed (ex. the narrator’s obsession with the sleeper, nightmares revealing a restless psyche, etc.). The other issue is when everything is of weighty importance, reading/watching/playing something like that makes you tired; eventually everything is so important that nothing is. In short, everything should have a purpose, but only some things are profoundly meaningful within the story. ~~and really, maybe don’t listen to me as I’m not a professional. I too am a fan of relaxed, casual media where ‘two people are just talking’ and don’t consider much conversation to be pointless. Maybe not particularly noteworthy, but I remember many things for the vibe and vibe is made up of *everything* that isn’t particularly noteworthy~~ | I have the same problem and I chalk it up to stylistic differences in the long run. However, for the sake of convention (which is important), I think it's important to recognize stories are constructs and not actual representations of reality. It's true that people have dumb, meaningless, conversations in reality, but the audience is interested in whatever dialogue moves the story forward. However, another dimension, to address the too on the money position, dialogue can exist to enhance the mood, set the scene, or serve as a bridge of focus. For instance, a character saying "hi" is pretty neutral, pointless, and has been seen dozens of times, but if a character is doing something and someone says hi to them, it serves to transition more innoculously into a dialogue heavy scene. Dialogue used to talk about a party might add to the atmosphere before diving into the more contrived parts. Personally, I go into any conversation knowing the contrived parts and looking for natural openings as to how and why characters may be talking about this subject. In that way, I guess I prefer to center on the contrived dialogue (because it's necessary to forward important plot and theme) and then use a lot of obfuscation to conceal it within a situation that meets the audiences suspension of disbelief. Also, not entirely related, but one of the worst offenders of contrived dialogue (to me) is the show Hannibal. I know people love that show, but I was rolling my eyes any time someone spoke. | 1 | 18,375 | 1.5 | ||
zyhqe3 | writing_train | 0.94 | How do I get better at dialogue? I’ve always sucked at dialogue. It tends to sound forced and unnatural so my usual style of writing is to limit dialogue as much as possible and that has worked fine for me. But as I’m reading a book for my bookclub with amazing dialogue, it leaves me feeling a bit down about how much dialogue could add to my work if I knew how to write it better. For context, I have in the past read a book called ‘how to write dazzling dialogue’ as well as attempted to observe people but neither added to my very subpar dialogue skills. Any advice? | j2613ng | j263da1 | 1,672,353,073 | 1,672,353,989 | 28 | 85 | Acting classes helped me a lot | Dialogue is much like a chemical reaction. You put two characters in a room together and observe what happens, and write down the results. If your characters are interesting and have a strong presence, the dialogue will practically write itself and you won't need to do much of anything! Imagine a 4th grade kid who gets punched in the face by a bully at school. Imagine he gets blamed for starting the fight and gets sent to the principal's office where he's bawling his eyes out. Imagine his loving mother gets called in to pick him up. Imagine the scene where the mom walks in and the kid looks up at her through teary eyes. You're probably already imagining the mother's reaction to seeing him, and the entire heartfelt exchange that would ensure. That's because the characters and scenario are strong. Once you have the chemical reaction going, then you subtly nudge it in the right direction to lead into the next scene or whatever. That's my take on directing dialogue. As for pulling off differing character voices, I can't pass up the opportunity to show this: https://youtu.be/3-zxj2kxbJY Experimenting with character voices with different subtones/implications is often as easy as finding different ways of saying the same thing. | 0 | 916 | 3.035714 |
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