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Project Manager: Can I close this ?
User Interface: Uh we don't have any changes , do we ?
Project Manager: Oh , okay .
User Interface: So no . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} There we go . Okay , here we are again . Detailed design {disfmarker} oh , come on . Well {disfmarker} Ah {gap} s Forgot to insert the minutes , but it's about the same thing we discussed before . Uh {disfmarker} Could open that anyway , think . Other design {disfmarker} anyway , we took as {disfmarker} we took w we took rubber as as the material last time . We also {gap} that you're just busy with it . Took the advanced chip to t uh implement the advanced features . Well , we discussed the design , no sharp corners , we rounded it off , like you see on the {gap} other screen , which is fine . Um {gap} we agreed that the colour should be b uh yellow and black . Yellow in the back because it's m trendy , more trendy than black anyway . So {vocalsound} then we ca yeah . We agreed that we would implement both the L_C_D_ and speech recognition , but I'll get to that in a moment . 'Cause some changes in the finances have left us implications anyway . So so , like I said , we had no insight in finances , no prices ,
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: but we have 'em now , and it's bad . Anyway . We are Oh . Prototype presentation , well first you guys built the prototype . So {vocalsound} you could {gap} {disfmarker} could present that . But um let's see what be handy to do . Nee {disfmarker} no , you just go ahead and present the {disfmarker} w we'll scrap it later because {disfmarker} {gap} What ?
Industrial Designer: I think it's more or less the same as we had .
User Interface: It's basically what we agreed upon ,
Marketing: Hmm ?
Project Manager: Oh that's
User Interface: but just a little bit more specified .
Industrial Designer: No much s
Project Manager: hasn't changed that much , huh ?
Industrial Designer: No no no , not at all .
Project Manager: I didn't expect anyway {gap} . You just coloured it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh s Final design . {vocalsound} Basically in {gap} {disfmarker} what we discussed , cover and buttons will be made of rubber , yellow colour , black components , as you can see right over here .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . I like the menu .
User Interface: We chose a different type of colour for the menu . A bit darker yellow so that it com really shows in this keypad .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: If you put them all black , it's not really that good a contrast .
Project Manager: And I suppose the the the yellow is not printed on the on the rubber . It's it's part of the rubber , I suppose .
User Interface: So {disfmarker} Probab
Project Manager: I think that's more I think that's more durable anyway than printed on to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . That's the be
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: And it {disfmarker} I guess it's more easier to just paint it on the rubber
Industrial Designer: Yeah , of course .
User Interface: than to uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's uh the integration story again .
Marketing: Mm yeah . Okay .
User Interface: So we have it's a bit round shaped ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh yeah .
User Interface: that's what we had uh {disfmarker} We chose the buttons to be uh teletext , okay button , favourite channel and the mute .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So that's basically what we chose there .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: If you have anything to add , please interrupt me .
Industrial Designer: No , uh this is just a description of what we see there .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh .
Industrial Designer: Speaks for itself .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: That's pretty much it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . Now it's my time to ruin everything . Well , not ruin everything , but {disfmarker} no , nah .
User Interface: Oh sorry . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Finances , that's what we have here , what you drew . We have battery power , we have advanced chips and the sam the sensor . The sample sensor and uh {disfmarker} for speak recognition anyway . So which {disfmarker} you see the {disfmarker} which is de o one of the most expensive parts . So {disfmarker} well , we have sin one curve , {vocalsound} a design . Rubber design . And we had a special colour . Suppose yellow is a special colour . So just half a Euro for {gap} {disfmarker} You have pushbuttons and an L_C_D_ display . You have the total of seventeen Euros in production cost ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: which is higher than the twelve and a half that we are permitted to use . So ,
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: easy . What do we scrap . Well think I had the best solution that I came up with is just to s take out the speech recognition .
Industrial Designer: I d
User Interface: I'd say that too .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Because the L_C_D_ has more support on customer side .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: There are ninety one percent of uh the people , or something like that . But ninety percent who favour an L_C_D_ display , and only sixty percent that favour speech recognition . I think it's also harder to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh we don't really have a extra function with the speech sample ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: which you can't do with a normal remote control ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: {gap} . So I ju
User Interface: which people already do . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I took that out . So {disfmarker} and so it's still stuck with thirteen , so I had to take out the special colour I suppose . And , yeah , I didn't see anything else I could take out . Yeah , I could take out the push-buttons ,
Marketing: Pushbut
Project Manager: but we need those . So , generally what I came up with , in order to be cou to to have production cost of twelve and a half Euros , spe scrap speech recognition
Industrial Designer: Huh . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Special colour , yeah .
Project Manager: and the separate covers can account for the {disfmarker} if people want it , we'll just {disfmarker} then we'll do it in black . We'll just deliver it in black , have the {disfmarker} it has all the function that it's supposed to have , and if you want it {disfmarker} if you want the custom design , then you can buy the separate covers .
User Interface: Well ,
Project Manager: You make it d orange or whatever you want .
User Interface: I'd {disfmarker} I tend to disagree with you on that , because the trend issue was a big issue when we started designing this .
Project Manager: It was a big issue , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: So can't we just basically extend it to thirteen ?
Project Manager: I'll just go back . Uh let's just {disfmarker} let's see what {disfmarker} okay , let's just see what we {disfmarker} no , we we have to be under twelve and a half .
Marketing: Yeah , it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It {disfmarker} it's not {disfmarker}
Marketing: The p
Project Manager: uh the project is a no-go if we go over twelve and a half ,
Industrial Designer: Okay , but there's another problem .
Marketing: And the p
Project Manager: so .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: But there's another problem .
Marketing: What {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: If we take another cover , for instance black , then we also need another button frame , 'cause black and black doesn't work obviously .
Project Manager: I think you {disfmarker} that's what you were ass assigned to do really , to to see how b th both those work together .
Industrial Designer: Huh . Huh . Yeah .
Project Manager: So I think {disfmarker} yeah , it's {disfmarker} I think it's y one of the {disfmarker} it's a good way to um to help people uh to make {disfmarker} to keep the product trendy too .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: Just keep {disfmarker} you just make new covers for the {disfmarker} for it ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: like we agreed before .
Industrial Designer: Right . I agree .
Project Manager: And everything that's left is is the basic function that uh that we want our product to have . Because the expensive parts are in either the advanced chip . But we need that for the L_C_D_ display .
User Interface: Yeah . We do .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Then again , we have the L_C_D_ display , which is also expensive . B yeah , but those go together . And yeah , we could take out the curve .
Industrial Designer: Or say let's lose rubber , take plastic .
User Interface: We could take out a curve indeed .
Project Manager: Could {disfmarker} we could take out the curve . Is that an option ?
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: {gap} .
Project Manager: For you ?
Industrial Designer: Although we are demolishing a little bit the style .
Marketing: But uh the {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think the colour is more important than the really the curve ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: because if you just end up with an entirely black remote control {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it's {disfmarker} it it does ruin it ,
Marketing: Yeah . The people {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but the fact that I t took that decision or t
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Took this example actually , not really decision , but the example is because we do offer the um {vocalsound} the possibility of adding your own custom covers . So you can change {gap} any colour you want . So it's just you deliver a basic remote control with a possibility to change you into whatever you want .
Industrial Designer: Can we then not also uh change the material ? We take plastic for the basic cover
Project Manager: You can take plastic ,
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but I d it's something that's stuck into my mind is that {disfmarker} something that really came forward from the marketing research is that people like the the the the squishy feeling of {disfmarker} the spongy feeling of the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Spongy , yeah .
Industrial Designer: We can put those to the to the other covers .
Project Manager: and it really makes it {disfmarker} also makes it different from the existing remote controls ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: because they're all plastic .
Marketing: And {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So which in in turn {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's true .
Project Manager: Rubber would increase durability
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: because it doesn't break .
Industrial Designer: okay . But what do you then suggest we'd lose ? Because we have to lose two things and {disfmarker} I guess .
Project Manager: I al like I said , I lost the speech recognition and I lost the special colour ,
Marketing: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: which would make this black a black and grey .
Industrial Designer: Okay , and that's enough ?
Project Manager: Yeah , that's that that that's enough , because
User Interface: So black and grey is okay .
Project Manager: I guess those are the basic colours .
Marketing: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Oh .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Which we can fabricate ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: I think those are basic col They want to {disfmarker}
User Interface: okay .
Marketing: The people want to pay for for it , so why why uh {vocalsound} do we have to keep us uh uh um on the twelve and a half ?
Project Manager: To ensure the profit . That {disfmarker} that's th that's the order . We're just uh {disfmarker} we're the project team and we got our our orders from the pro from the boss of our company
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: which say we don't wanna spend more than twelve fifty for this .
Marketing: But we can take a risk .
Project Manager: But that's not for our {disfmarker} that's not our decision to take . We have a budget of twelve fifty per product .
User Interface: No , we basically {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: We need to stick to that .
Project Manager: Stick that . I don't think it's really bad either . I mean if we we have the the backup of {disfmarker} or the backup design thing
Marketing: I hope the people will like it ,
Project Manager: to have {disfmarker}
Marketing: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think they would do . Th I think they do like because yo we {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} we agree upon that the that the the the cover thing was a nice idea ,
Marketing: {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: because p you could have all sort of designs while at the same time just manufacturing one product , one basic product which you could turn into any any taste you want .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So I think it's the best solution to make those cu custom covers for the design aspect
Industrial Designer: Perhaps we should make m
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and keep the functionality between {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} within the th the boundaries of the your f uh your budget .
Industrial Designer: Huh .
Marketing: The first sheet .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Perhaps we should make clear to our customer that we had to do this to stay under the cost . And that's {disfmarker} uh they know that this is an option and that we had to drop the option to stay under the cost , that they know that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well I don't think {disfmarker} Yeah . Is it worth {disfmarker} is it is it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Perhaps they decide tha
User Interface: But they don't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: does it mean anything to the customer ? Like , it {disfmarker} like , we don't care {disfmarker} we don't care that you had to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Of course . Perhaps {gap} they uh {disfmarker} no , but perhaps they think uh okay , the cover is such a nice idea , uh let's {disfmarker} that that then they uh that allow us to make some more costs .
Project Manager: True ,
Industrial Designer: We ca we uh we can at least tell them that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but we did we didn't get that . So I think it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You don't know that .
Project Manager: it should either be a pack , maybe we sh that should be sold in in the s in stores with with a standard cover or something .
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Huh .
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No , I'm not uh talking about that cost {gap} but the one that g has given us the order to design this . We could at least m uh make it like this , like you said ,
Project Manager: They could , but uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and then tell them okay , we had to drop this and that , just that you know . It is an {disfmarker} still an option , but {vocalsound} not for this price .
Project Manager: It's an option , but {disfmarker} yeah , it's true . So actually uh it's not that much of an increase , but yeah . We cannot contact them .
User Interface: And if we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's just the order that we got .
Industrial Designer: Exactly ,
Project Manager: So that's what we gotta go with .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So it's either one fi just just to get it f just to get it through final , it's either {vocalsound} turned into plastic , drop the squishy feel , make it make it more breakable ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: um or turn it yellow . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's uh something we have to decide on .
Industrial Designer: I'd say lose the curve and the colour
Project Manager: I say lose the curve . Oh that's true ,
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we could lose the c I forgot that , yeah , sorry . Uh the curve . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: So which curve is that ba
Project Manager: That's just this one just d this is the banana curve .
User Interface: that's basically that curve .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: So this would this would be straight .
User Interface: So we could u still have the comfort .
Marketing: Yeah , that's better .
Project Manager: No , uh {disfmarker} no , that would be a curve inside the thing , I guess . No , would ju then it would just be a straight remote . Just like {vocalsound} like that .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: Which would , yeah , turn it into something far more ordinary . {gap} we could make it yellow then ,
User Interface: I second that .
Project Manager: but {disfmarker} You second that , you second that we lose the curve .
User Interface: {vocalsound} No , that it would turn out to be a pretty straight-forward remote control .
Project Manager: Okay , yeah .
User Interface: So that's not really that {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: So I think it would be a good idea to keep the curve {vocalsound} to separate it from the rest of the remote control world , so to speak .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: So we keep the curve . So the only only solution is either to use the l y lose the yellow or lose the rubber .
User Interface: I would {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And I'm in favour of keeping the rubber , because it has more more advantages than the colour yellow has .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh . I agree .
User Interface: Yeah . I would say {disfmarker} I would agree with you on the colour ,
Industrial Designer: No .
Marketing: Yep .
User Interface: because that's an extra option , an extra service we can deliver for a little bit of more money .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Yeah , um
User Interface: So we can always do that .
Project Manager: I guess people are willing to pay for that . So I think we can take that option and just {disfmarker} with uh with the idea in the back of our head that you can customise your remote control .
Industrial Designer: Hmm ?
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So I think that would still make it a nice product .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Okay , we're final on that . So {vocalsound} it's too bad we can't make the whole super thing . But anyways we're here . Um yeah .
User Interface: Which is basically what we discussed .
Project Manager: This we discussed just now . That's just now {disfmarker} just {disfmarker} we could just discuss how the project went . I mean , was kind of {disfmarker}
Marketing: And I want to do that .
Project Manager: I sort of expected that everything would turn out this way , but because you {disfmarker} yeah , everything cannot be for free . We didn't {disfmarker} I think it was too bad we didn't have the financial info the last time . Because that was {disfmarker} I th
User Interface: Yes ,
Industrial Designer: Huh .
Project Manager: it was really essential really
User Interface: we could have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: to ma because we spent uh uh entire stage designing a product of which we had no idea what it would cost .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: So we just put something {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think it's really nor not in stroke with reality actually .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Me too , I felt a bit blind throughout the project ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: because in the beginning I had no list of available materials ,
Project Manager: Yeah , I think {gap} {disfmarker} would have been .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Materials would be ok
Industrial Designer: and then I d had not list of available c finances .
Marketing: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: at least the last meeting I would have expected had to have that .
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So I suppose {disfmarker}
Marketing: Let's um {vocalsound} see {gap} um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , let's see if it sells . I mean I suppose this sells , because it's very {disfmarker} {vocalsound} very extended .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well I hope it sells . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Let's {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I suppose it sells ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: because it's good .
Marketing: Oh .
Project Manager: I mean it's got everything for the for the reasonable price , because we didn't know what it's gonna cost anyway .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm . Okay , let's eval evaluate uh the product of us , our design . Um I have some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh a method , a requirements and scale of . I uh will pre present uh some statements and we will decided together wha what {disfmarker} if it's true or false
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: and uh then we see uh if the requirements of the user are fulfilled or not .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Have been met , okay .
Marketing: And I will uh make a new blank sheet
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: So so the buttons , the look and feel . I thought it was okay , but the advanced uh settings , um screen , audio and channel {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} They're stuck under menu .
User Interface: Which are basically accessible through the menu button .
Marketing: We are not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: For the menu . I think those are totally met ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: because we we really took them for the {disfmarker} they have the feel they want ,
Marketing: Oh the menu button is it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Hi Oh , okay .
Project Manager: they have the simplicity they want .
Marketing: Then it's all uh {disfmarker} S
Project Manager: I think it's very uh very well met . Either two or one maybe .
Industrial Designer: One .
Marketing: it's true .
Project Manager: I think we took that {disfmarker} everything they wanted into consideration .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So it could either be a two or a one .
Marketing: So d Oh wait . Uh pen .
Project Manager: One and a half . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Which is not an option . {vocalsound}
Marketing: The p Oh yeah ,
Project Manager: Just create our own option . {vocalsound}
Marketing: it's red , okay , but {disfmarker} Look and feel is everybo it's true .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So {disfmarker} Anyone ? And the next one {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} yeah , when it's lost uh you can find it .
Project Manager: It's perfect . Even for deaf people , yeah .
Marketing: It's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's {disfmarker} I don't think it's perfect , but we did everything possible to to get it back .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: To make it that way , yeah .
Project Manager: Because if it's stuck in you couch , you can see the light . Maybe you can hear it . But I mean we tried ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: so I think it {disfmarker} that's {disfmarker} that deserves a one . Definitely .
Marketing: And it's and it's {disfmarker} yeah . To {gap} . That's okay then . And the next one . How is that ? Uh w we had {disfmarker} we don't have an uh manual ,
Industrial Designer: Manual .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think the L_C_D_ display could be a little bit more difficult then a normal remote control ,
Marketing: But I think that's a part of it . But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I'd use an {gap} remote control .
User Interface: Mm yeah .
Industrial Designer: but then again , it's for young people . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , an L_C_D_ , it tells a lot about uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: And it's pretty straight-forward ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I th
Project Manager: It's pretty straight-forward , uh-huh .
User Interface: you have a navigation {disfmarker} no keys to navigate through the L_C_D_ menus .
Industrial Designer: Exactly . No , that's true . I think it won't be a big problem .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: So it's a one
User Interface: One I d no ,
Marketing: or a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I don't know .
User Interface: actu
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker} but we didn't even {disfmarker}
Marketing: For the advanced uh settings .
Project Manager: there was no issue on making a manual actually . We didn't {disfmarker} {gap} really discuss it ,
Marketing: No okay , that {disfmarker} uh that's true .
Project Manager: but I don't think it takes {disfmarker} no , it really does doesn't take time to learn , I think . We took it s it's so easy ,
User Interface: No , it it is pretty straight-forward .
Marketing: Oh , so it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we have so little button , everything speaks for itself really . So I think that's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ah . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah , we didn't {disfmarker} it's either two or one , I guess .
Marketing: Takes no ti
Project Manager: Maybe it's a two , because d uh the L_C_D_ is a little is a little new and there is {disfmarker} there are some option hidden under the menu button .
Industrial Designer: With the more important functions on .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So I might make this a two instead of a one , I guess .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: And the L_C_D_ , you have to see it .
Project Manager: So just make that a two .
Marketing: Um mm {disfmarker} Oh , it's a little bit learning . Okay . Uh yeah {vocalsound} it's uh a little bit same .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: But it tells you or not ?
Project Manager: You can use the L_C_D_ in a good way . I think so . I think it's perfect , the w where it is , what it can do , if it useful . I think so .
Marketing: But wha w
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: oh , yeah . What are we uh displaying on the L_C_D_ screen ? Just uh only the channels and {disfmarker} or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} the menus uh {disfmarker} Things like brightness and uh those kind of things we've put in the menu ,
Marketing: What uh ?
Industrial Designer: because we have no buttons for those .
User Interface: Well , basically the menu options indeed . But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh , in the L_C_D_ screen .
Project Manager: No , y I mean in the L_C_D_ screen , the small screen . What does it display ?
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: And for a channel selection , uh {gap} {disfmarker} or that's not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I thought it was I thought it was {disfmarker} I thought that people wanted previews on their {disfmarker} I'm not sure if that even possible ,
Marketing: Yeah , I thought I thought too
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: 'cause it's {disfmarker} this requires a quite quite a bit of band-width .
Marketing: yeah .
Project Manager: I don't think it's possible really . But the {disfmarker} they didn't really define in what should be used for .
User Interface: No .
Marketing: Maybe a T_V_ guide or something in your L_C_D_ uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But I think in for example like T_V_ guides , I think that's {disfmarker} that th that you can transmit through it and everything . Just for extra information on your programmes .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah , it must be clear then what {disfmarker} what what for we use it .
Project Manager: But also things like like like menus or p how about preferences of your {disfmarker} uh with configuring your remote control for favourite {disfmarker} your favourite channel for example , how do you configure that .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So that could be done by L_C_D_ display . I think it's good . No , maybe it's not a one because it's {disfmarker} we're not using it perfectly . We didn't give it {disfmarker} I don't thing over-discussing . Now we gave it enough thought though . I think we d should just lower this .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Maybe maybe it's a three though . We could've used it more effectively probably .
Marketing: Yeah , indeed .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So everybody's agree with an uh three on it ,
Project Manager: Yeah , we are using it ,
User Interface: Yeah . Two or three .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but it's not
Marketing: W
Project Manager: it's not poorly used , but it's not efficiently used , I think .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: We could have ev even lost {vocalsound} the selection button and uh done everything via L_C_D_ selection .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: It's {disfmarker} now it's just extra to illustrate im uh extra features ,
Marketing: Yeah , {gap} I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but okay .
Marketing: A three .
Industrial Designer: Nah , it's not really {disfmarker} only an extra .
User Interface: You can {disfmarker} seven . {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No menus .
Marketing: Ah , nothing , that's {vocalsound} {disfmarker} A seven . Uh that's uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Think about {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Can you talk to remote control ?
User Interface: Or we could say it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , it can't talk anymore . So we scrap that .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Or we could say neutral ,
Project Manager: Oh yeah {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: we {disfmarker} 'cause we scratched the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just to be a prick ,
User Interface: C
Project Manager: but of course you can talk to your remote control , it doesn't do anything .
Marketing: {gap} Yeah yeah yeah yeah .
Project Manager: But you c {vocalsound} you can talk to it .
Marketing: Not with the speech recognition . Uh yeah , all the trends and no colours uh anymore . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well , we did take everything into consideration of course . Uh the shape i shape is i
Marketing: Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} uh um only in the curves .
Project Manager: I think we {disfmarker} yeah , I think that's okay .
Marketing: But the colours , we don't have special colours on it .
User Interface: No , we don't have the colour .
Project Manager: Yeah , {gap} special co but we took into consideration the fact that it's customisable
User Interface: So I {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah ,
Project Manager: to the fashi
Marketing: but we {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes , but the end product {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: yeah , we don't have it , so d
Project Manager: We don't have it {disfmarker} we do have it ,
Marketing: In the end product .
Project Manager: it's just sold as a package .
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} M
Project Manager: It does {disfmarker} it's not part of the basic product .
Industrial Designer: Changing covers is also trend that we followed .
Project Manager: It {disfmarker} that that's what I call trendy . I mean the shape is trendy .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The the sh the the functions are trendy . It's just the colours that are not supporting the basic model . Because you ha
Marketing: Now {disfmarker}
Project Manager: it's just not affordable at the moment .
User Interface: Maybe we should go with a two then ,
Marketing: But it's not a one .
User Interface: because it's not perfect , because we can't do it initially ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: but we {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's possible ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Oh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but you have to pay extra for the for the possibility of having it in a f a different colour .
Marketing: Oh well {disfmarker} Oops .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh it's a two ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: right ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: On the last one . Uh that n that's all .
Project Manager: Overall score . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Overall score .
Marketing: Overall . {vocalsound} It's um
Project Manager: One two three . {gap} sixteen .
Marketing: {vocalsound} ten , sixteen three {disfmarker} uh two
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Two two point some two point something .
Marketing: two point seven or something like that .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: I don't know why .
User Interface: Ten , sixteen , divided by {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Six .
Marketing: Six .
User Interface: Is two two third .
Project Manager: Two and two thirds .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} So
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: we can say it's it's {disfmarker} the product is {disfmarker} it's okay .
Project Manager: It's okay , but {vocalsound} that's yo m
Marketing: Y not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: mostly it's it's influenced by the fact that we didn't have enough resources to implement speech recognition .
User Interface: There's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: 'Cause yeah , that gives you a seven , which ruins your your average .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Without that it would be like under {disfmarker} it wouldn't {disfmarker} yeah , it would be under two . So I think we have {disfmarker} even with this it's reasonable .
Marketing: Woah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , if we make it into a four , as in neutral , because we didn't implement it , so we can't say that we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that it's really not well implemented . We come out on a average of two one eighth .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well I think it's {disfmarker} two is okay .
User Interface: So which is pretty w good .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah , two is pretty good .
User Interface: It's at least on the positive side .
Project Manager: Definitely .
User Interface: So {disfmarker} We could definitely have done better if we've had more resources ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm , of course .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , I think it's probably {disfmarker} {gap} I
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I do admit that we d {vocalsound} did miss a little {disfmarker} or didn't sp didn't talk {gap} {disfmarker} talk enough about the possibility of the L_C_D_ display . We could have used it more efficiently ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: we just didn't think of it that way .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , with {gap} . ..#
User Interface: True .
Project Manager: So {gap} {disfmarker} like I said , {vocalsound} changing channels , everything hidden in your L_C_D_ display , so you just need the navigation buttons to do everything .
Marketing: The scale .
Industrial Designer: But I think for this price , this is {disfmarker} it's really a reasonable product .
Project Manager: I think we div I think we did very well ,
Industrial Designer: It's a good product .
Project Manager: uh ev even if you look at this score , we did quite well .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh . Oh . Yeah .
Marketing: With an L_C_D_ screen {gap} .
Project Manager: It just looking for improvements what what you could have improved . So . {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But if pep people really want speech recognition , then they must be prepared to pu to pay more , because it's cannot be done for this .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} They sh they should get kids , and just stick 'em in T_V_ and say change the channel . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: you can make 'em another one .
Industrial Designer: Hmm yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ah but for this price uh you cannot ask that .
Project Manager: I don' think so . Uh it's just not {disfmarker} it it's not affordable .
Industrial Designer: You cannot th think of that {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Or your sh you should lose the L_C_D_ screen probably ,
Industrial Designer: No , it's not .
Project Manager: but I think that's {disfmarker} I think the L_C_D_ screen is more worth than speech recognition .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Oh It's also more attractive .
Project Manager: Definitely . Okay , that was that .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: So that's the final product without the speakers , I guess .
User Interface: So did you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Let's see , what was left in the the {disfmarker} Another one . {vocalsound} Hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we evaluate the product . {gap} {disfmarker} General project , what's i in {disfmarker} For example , I thou I thought we were pretty creative in what we created . We took the whole new approach of making exchangeable cover for example , which I thought was pretty creative , because it was never never ever listed somewhere .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Favourite channel .
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker} Anyways . Yeah , leadership is up to you . I mean perhaps I screwed up because I d {vocalsound} put a put a speech recognition into it . But that's not for me to decide .
Marketing: Yeah , I know . Yeah .
Project Manager: I think we did pretty well as team-work though . Because , yeah was very hard to work with one another if you cannot communicate in the meantime ,
Industrial Designer: Yes . Hmm .
Project Manager: because when I got the when I got the input for the financial results , initially of course I wanted to contact you .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Yeah , you're working separate .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Say , look , this is {disfmarker} you're doing the wrong thing ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Huh .
Project Manager: you're s you're wasting your time now , because we're implementing stuff that we cannot afford .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah yeah .
Project Manager: So it would be better if y if there was more communication between uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah . Direct uh communication with {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: because that's that's what would w you {disfmarker} what you would normally do , either call or email someone .
User Interface: And we could share information which we received .
Project Manager: So that was too bad
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: con was impossible here anyways . {gap} .
Industrial Designer: That's the same thing that I had in the beginning . Everybody was using materials that s I didn't have .
Project Manager: It didn't have
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: or didn't knew what they costs or whatever .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: There was just too little information about what things actually cost and if you could use them .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: So that was a little unclear I suppose . I think a SMARTboard SMARTboard is pretty cool . I think uh s especially for design issues , it's very easy just to give your give your thoughts a little {disfmarker} it's easier to share them .
Marketing: {vocalsound} My handwriting is little bit {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Although for actual design I'd say the response time should be a little bit higher ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: It's a little less {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} the response time is le it's very bad .
User Interface: because {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: It's good to visualise everything , but I think the response time should {disfmarker} could be a lot better .
User Interface: The digital pen was definitely better to draw my ideas and to further elaborate on that .
Marketing: But th that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Definitely .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah , it's true .
Marketing: Yeah , okay .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But there's uh also one problem with this I noticed . Uh you have to finish a page before going to a n
Project Manager: No , you don't have to . No , you don't .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: I jin I didn't check the finish button .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Marketing: You can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I just {disfmarker} you just ditch it and you can copy it or whatever .
Marketing: Done and then it's okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay , I saw that uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh only if you uh check the notes or {vocalsound} press done . Then it um {disfmarker} then you can {disfmarker} then it exports to Word automatically .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: But it's not necessary to check either one of those two .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Project Manager: You can just preview your p you can just preview your page in the in the programme .
Industrial Designer: but I made {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh , okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay , but I made three pages
Marketing: Okay , yeah .
Industrial Designer: and they were not finished . And when the third one was finished , I wanted to download it and then it was not possible anymore , because you have to close all the pinnits uh the pages before going further . {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , before starting a ne a new page .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay , that could be b .
Industrial Designer: Exactly . So we cannot work on more than one page at same time . That's not possible .
Marketing: Oh .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: You have to finish it completely ,
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: Oh can you ? Okay .
Industrial Designer: then download it , it's {disfmarker} then start a new one .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay .
Industrial Designer: That's not very uh handy ,
Project Manager: That's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but if you know that , then it's not a problem .
Project Manager: Yeah , it's understandable , okay . {vocalsound} Any new ideas ? Yeah , more communication between {vocalsound} between uh {disfmarker} that's the thing I noticed , that communication is very um very important ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Important to mm {disfmarker}
Project Manager: because if you get new information , it's essential f for the other team-mates to know that as soon as possible , because you would avoid making {disfmarker} doing extra work , because you were doing extra work now uh m working on the on the speech recognition , you have limitation both on the technical {gap} {disfmarker} on the d on the design side .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So I think that could have been better . But that's {disfmarker} I think it's more of a a setting here that you cannot communicate than uh {gap} than somewhere else .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , well it could also possibly be {disfmarker} well , is it a more real-time information base , so we can all see {vocalsound} which information is available to one another .
Project Manager: Yeah , I think so . And l less p less spam probably . I'm not sure i I'm not sure you got spammed as well ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: but I get spammed like every t every two minutes there was a {disfmarker} there was another email about master classes or something .
Industrial Designer: Ah . Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: which were totally useless actually . I thought I should probably look into them , {vocalsound} but they were all useless . So I just {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , I personally did not have that ,
Marketing: Mm {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh okay .
User Interface: but {disfmarker} That's probably your l description .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But I also didn't {disfmarker} not really . But still , you had that as well . Is that we finished up the design
Industrial Designer: Huh .
User Interface: and then we checked the website ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: and then there was just extra information .
Marketing: Yeah , after {disfmarker} After five minutes , uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: There was a little delay in the {disfmarker} {gap} bit of a c crucial delay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I didn't have any uh more information , it's just always the same here . So that's that's kind of a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Email uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It would change , but not for me . So I'd {disfmarker} I had no extra information to go on that one than what you give me actually .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: I couldn't do any research myself
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: or {disfmarker} I see , that's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: yeah , w I could have done a little extra work probably , then {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But I was busy enough anyway . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Any new ideas found ? Or is that a {gap} 'cause {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh yeah , it's {disfmarker} well ,
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: probably is .
User Interface: How much time do we have for this anyway ?
Project Manager: I have no clue . That's like {disfmarker} oh,but it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Should i
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Project Manager: if the project is evaluated and it was it was in b within budget , we should celebrate . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: bring out the beer .
User Interface: Champagne .
Project Manager: Uh okay , think that's about it . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I want one for my own . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm not sure what we should still do though uh t let's see what {disfmarker} all your tasks were finished , right ? What you ha from your assistant . So let's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I have no more email . My coach is uh being very silent now .
Project Manager: Okay ,
Marketing: Yeah ,
Project Manager: I should {disfmarker} I think I sh
Marketing: my personal coach i
Project Manager: I still have the the total report to finish up . I think we took very little time now , because {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , we're in agreement , everything {disfmarker} the design is okay . The one thing we missed though , we don't have a product name .
Marketing: What {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No ,
Project Manager: How about you cook a {disfmarker} how about you cook up a product name ?
User Interface: Product name .
Industrial Designer: we haven't think above {disfmarker} about that .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , name .
Industrial Designer: Huh . It's better than thi I think than a serial number . Sony uh T_R_ something uh f means nothing to me . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just {disfmarker}
Marketing: Or fruit name .
Project Manager: oh , think of a catchy name . I'll be working on this until the beep {disfmarker} until it beeps . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Like fruit names .
Marketing: Fruit name or something like that .
Project Manager: What ? Fruit ?
Marketing: The banana remote or something .
Project Manager: You don't want it to resemble a banana .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I don't know . Yeah , it's the form of it .
Project Manager: It's not yellow anyway .
User Interface: The bana 'cause it's not yellow anymore .
Project Manager: It's not yellow anymore .
Marketing: Yeah {disfmarker} oh , yeah . {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It is curved , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh yeah . {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , uh I was going for the R_C_ deluxe , but it's not really a catchy name or anything ,
Project Manager: No ,
User Interface: it's more {disfmarker}
Project Manager: it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh at least it's not something with numbers .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Numbers are so meaningless to the people . I mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Something with our {gap} company name ,
Marketing: That's true .
User Interface: can we do anything with that ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} .
User Interface: Maybe there's something on the website which will help us out .
Marketing: Reaction , Real Reaction .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Real Reaction .
User Interface: The reaction deluxe .
Project Manager: Real Reaction future R_C_ . {vocalsound} Step into the future of of remote controlling your T_V_ . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Is that a name or a c campaign ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No that's a that's a catchy slogan .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Control your remote control .
User Interface: Or the {disfmarker} The real reactor .
Industrial Designer: Real react .
Project Manager: I go for future R_C_ probably . Something like {disfmarker} It's short f
Industrial Designer: The Real Reactor , I don't find that uh that bad at all .
Marketing: {gap} .
Project Manager: Real reactor ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh that that's
User Interface: You should write it down as a {disfmarker} an option .
Industrial Designer: Because our name is Real Reaction .
Project Manager: That makes me think of different {vocalsound} products than a remote control really .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm not sure . Real reaction in a real {disfmarker}
Marketing: Zapping . The {disfmarker}
User Interface: So that's one option .
Project Manager: Real reactor . Didn't notice .
Industrial Designer: I'm looking for things in the name .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: So that the first three letters are s the same . R_E_A_ R_E_A_ .
User Interface: Should I write the banana down or {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I take f
Marketing: Yeah , sure .
Project Manager: yeah , take a banana .
User Interface: Sure ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} The banana .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: Remote . Banana recei R_C_ .
Industrial Designer: The triple R_ . Real Reaction remotes control . Triple R_ .
Marketing: Remote .
User Interface: Well I {disfmarker}
Marketing: R_ three C_ .
User Interface: Uh do you mean it like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} ?
Marketing: R_ three C_ .
Industrial Designer: {gap} yeah .
User Interface: You mean it like this ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Real Reaction Remote Control . R_ three C_ . Oh yeah .
Industrial Designer: {gap} . {gap} .
Project Manager: No , not like that . It should be it should be longer , because it's not a product name that you f print on a box .
Industrial Designer: I think {disfmarker} triple R_ .
Project Manager: Just write out triple , like a word triple R_C_ , triple stripe {disfmarker} Oh . Triple dash R_ dash s s C_ .
Industrial Designer: Doesn't sound {gap} ?
Marketing: Yeah , triple R_ .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Ah .
Marketing: Triple R_C_ . The triple R_C_ , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: R_ s R_ three C_ . {gap} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} R_ dash C_ .
User Interface: Dash C_ ?
Industrial Designer: I think I like it like this more .
Project Manager: Dash . Triple R_ or triple R_C_ ?
User Interface: Like a C_ right now or a dash in a C_ ?
Marketing: Triple R_ dash .
Project Manager: How about do both ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Sure if it looks stupid . Uh I think that the the R_C_ together takes away the the the image of {disfmarker} it's a triple {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: Uh the first the first one looks like it's a triple remote control ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: That {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but it's only a single remote control . And it's especially on the triple R_ that's important . The Real Reaction Remote .
Industrial Designer: I would {disfmarker} huh . I would lose the C_
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , this {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: and just name it triple R_ .
User Interface: Is it triple R_C_s ? No .
Project Manager: {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It sounds like uh thinking about two different things and combining it .
Marketing: Triple remote .
Industrial Designer: I would just say triple R_s triple R_
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , triple R_ {gap} yeah , you can {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , that's another option .
Industrial Designer: That's also short , catchy .
Marketing: It's okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , triple R_ .
User Interface: Okay , so which ones are we going to scratch definitely ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} The banana . {vocalsound} Banana . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Banana remote . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Banana . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I say this one as well .
Marketing: Yeah , the deluxe .
Project Manager: I think we're all in agreement about the triple R_ .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Project Manager: I think triple R_ is cool .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: Triple R_ ?
Marketing: The r triple R_ .
Project Manager: And it looks cool when you print it in font , looks pretty cool .
User Interface: Triple R_ it is .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} did you do now ?
Project Manager: Just like this {gap} just {disfmarker} and you just print triple R_ , it looks {disfmarker} doesn't look bad ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: it's short , it's okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So have to write my report now , I guess . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} Yeah , so we have everything . We have the product , we have the costs ,
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: we have the possibility of everything .
Marketing: It can't work . That will not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . I think it's adjourned . Retire to my lair and finish the report . That was a short meeting . But efficient though .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . The boss is always the last one to go home . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Probably . See . Okay ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: goodbye .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: See you in a minute .
Marketing: Damn . I will write that one in a Word uh document .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Could you guys draw me a picture of the final design to put on the cover of the report ?
User Interface: Yeah , sure .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Can't we take this one ?
Marketing: Oh sh
Industrial Designer: Otherwise we have to do it all over again .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: I don't really know whether we can save it as a picture or no .
Industrial Designer: Is it okay if I try ? Is that okay with you ?
User Interface: Sure .
Marketing: Yeah , okay , I will ask you when uh I need the information .
Industrial Designer: I'll put it back in a minute .
Marketing: So it's {disfmarker} oh .
Industrial Designer: Okay , it has been saving something , but where to I don't know .
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Oh . Merge .
Industrial Designer: Oh , can I say exp yes , I can .
Marketing: Sucks .
Industrial Designer: Export as J_ PEG . {gap} . Okay , can I not put this wherever I wants . My document is the wrong one , huh .
Marketing: {gap} {disfmarker} Yeah , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Network places .
Marketing: I don't know . Smart {disfmarker} no .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Marketing: Ma it's maybe it's not on the network of uh the rest .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't think so .
Marketing: That one is . {gap} .
User Interface: I wouldn't pick that one , no .
Industrial Designer: Document and settings .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's a pity . That means that we have to gonna draw it again . Are you gonna do that ?
User Interface: Sure .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Oh .
Industrial Designer: That {disfmarker} Yes . Okay . Okay . Okay . Yes , that's correct .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: No . Oh , it's export .
Marketing: Oh yeah , {gap} . {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Can I see scores ?
Industrial Designer: Oh , of course .
Marketing: Uh , {gap} one one , two threes , two {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Sorry .
Marketing: Okay , then we'll {disfmarker} overall , two points . Yes .
User Interface: I see you later .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
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Project Manager: Is that alright now ? {vocalsound} Okay . Sorry ? Okay , everybody all set to start the meeting ? Okay , we've got half an hour for this one um to uh discuss the um functional design .
Marketing: Could you plug me in ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . Thanks .
Project Manager: All ready to go ? Okay .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um so hopefully you've all been working away , and I've put the minutes of the last meeting in the project folder . Um so I guess just to to recap on uh what we did last time . Um kind of uh got to know each other a little bit and uh got familiar with all the equipment and started to discuss um a bit about the project , you know , cost-wise how much how much money we had to s Um just want to tell you that you have three new requirements , which is the {disfmarker} The first one {vocalsound} is that um uh the company's decided that teletext is outdated uh because of how popular the internet is . Nobody uses teletext very much anymore , so we don't really need to consider that in the functionality of the {disfmarker} of the remote control .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Um they've also suggested that we um we only use the remote control to control the television , not the V_C_R_ , D_V_D_ or anything else . I think the worry is that if the project becomes too complex then it'll affect um how long it takes us to get it into into production , the time to market . So um , we're just gonna keep it simple and it'll just control the T_V_ .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: And the other thing was that the company want the corporate colour and slogan to be implemented in the new design . Um I'm not entirely sure what the corporate colour is . It might be yellow , because there seems to be a lot of yellow everywhere .
Marketing: And the slogan , like the actual written slogan , or just to embody the idea of the slogan ?
Project Manager: Well that's the thing , I'm I'm not sure um {vocalsound} uh th because on the the company website , uh what does it say {disfmarker} Uh something {disfmarker}
Marketing: 'Bout putting the fashion in electronics .
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , I mean do they {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Is that something they want actually written on it , 'cause it's quite long . Um or yeah , just the idea , but I'm not sure . So that's something we can discuss as well . So those are the three things , just not to worry about teletext , uh only control the T_V_ , and um and uh incorporate the uh colour and slogan of the company . Um so is everybody okay with any of that , or do you want me to recap at all ?
Industrial Designer: Nope , we're all set .
Project Manager: Right um , time for presentations then . Who would like to go first ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'll go first .
Project Manager: Okay , cool .
Marketing: Sure .
User Interface: Alright um , can I st steal this from the back of your laptop ? Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh yeah , of course , yeah . G go on ahead .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} so this is the technical functions design . Um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Right {gap} to do the um {vocalsound} the design I have I've had a look online , I've had a look at the homepage , which has given us um some insp inspiration from previous products .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Um I've had a look at the previous products to see what they offer and um I would like to ask you guys for um {vocalsound} your ideas about the design at the end of the meeting . Um unfortunately we're not allowed to talk outside the meeting room , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: Um , having a look at the existing products , I found out that um it tends to come in sort of two extremes , there's either um a very complicated one that's got lots of buttons , lots of colours , very confusing , you don't know what you're doing . {vocalsound} Um in that case the the labelling tends to be very bad . Um there's an example I'll show you at the end , um {gap} sh show you now . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright {gap} .
User Interface: {gap} here um the button there and there . This one's prog . Sorry . That one's perg and that one's prog , and it doesn't really tell you what it does . Um , not sure if you had a a look at the other um control in that example . Um it's a very simple one . It's got only the basic functions mm but um {vocalsound} it's the same size as the the hard to use one .
Project Manager: Oop .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh it looked a bit clunky . They're very big and not very much use for {gap} buttons . {vocalsound} Um , {vocalsound} and it's just very hard to access the advanced functions . There's there's nothing for instance for a slow motion button . Um , my own preferences , I prefer the the clunky one . Um it's very easy to use . Um but unfortunately it does lack the advanced functions which I I quite like having on the controls . {vocalsound} Um so I believe the the advanced functions should maybe be hidden in a drawer , or something like tha {gap} from the bottom of it . So , {vocalsound} now I'd like to ask for your preferences . Um not sure of how long we've got , uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um . Well we can chat away for uh for five minutes or so I think at at most .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Just a couple of minutes anyway .
Marketing: M yeah , like a lot of a lot of what I've um read and prepared for this meeting fits in really closely with what with what Craig's just gone over . So in part I could I could give you some of my personal preferences but I could also th add some to this which is just about sort of um sort of market research .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: But anyway ,
Project Manager: Shall we sh well we'll stick to kind of your area for now .
Marketing: um we might come to that later .
Industrial Designer: Which which is the clunky one , the one on left or on the right?. .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um , the clunky one is the one on the right .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Um clunky in what sense , like um h heavier ? Larger ?
User Interface: Um I think it's supposed to be the same size , but um it's got much fewer buttons . It's , you know , it's very spread out
Marketing: I see , so it's more just basic .
Project Manager: Looks kind of {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: and kind of {disfmarker} you know
Marketing: Right , okay .
User Interface: , I get the idea it'd be sort of about this size . {vocalsound} {gap} got very few buttons on it and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . Sure .
Project Manager: Well I think it's a valid point . I mean like the one on the left looks quite um quite complicated , and that P_R_T_ p P_R_O_T_ thing is incredibly confusing . Um so I see I see why yo you know you might prefer the simpler design , but yeah you don't want to lose out on , you know , what it does , so maybe you know
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: you know you get a lot of remote controls where you kind of flip the thing open ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think that's a good idea .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: I think it's a good idea . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Um , {vocalsound} do we have any functions that um we'd want on it ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I mean so far I've got um on and off , um switch the channel up and down , and put the volume up and down .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Uh-huh .
User Interface: Um they're just the the very basics you could use for a T_V_ .
Project Manager: Uh-huh , and then actual numbers for channels as well , yeah .
User Interface: Okay . Um , you say that's a h a required one or a requested one ? Would you like
Marketing: Which was that ?
User Interface: um the channels like the the numbers on thing , um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Up {disfmarker} the numbers , or the up down ?
Project Manager: God , I wou I would say that's required ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I mean there's no way anybody's gonna buy a remote control these days when if you can't actually individually select channels ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I mean would anybody disagree with that ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um , what else , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So don't need to worry about teletext ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: don't need to worry about V_C_R_ , uh any kind of like display controls at all do you think we need to worry about ,
Marketing: We don't ? No ?
Project Manager: you know like brightness and contrast ?
Marketing: Yeah . Well I think I think es essentially what we're doing right now is we're categorising . We're saying well we want this to be a product that offers all the sort of more tricky features but we want them to be in another area ?
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Is that right ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Is that what we're we're doing ?
User Interface: Um , yeah .
Marketing: We're kind of like sorting them an Or are we actually eliminating things we just don't want the product to have ?
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker} are you are you maybe kind of thinking what we absolutely have to have and what would be nice ?
User Interface: Uh , to start with um sort of a bit both , um we need to find out exactly what we have to have
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: um and after that we can add things if they're possible .
Project Manager: Okay , right . Well , do you wanna maybe just , at this point decide on what we absolutely must have as a p as a function of this .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um , so so far , just to recap you've got volume and channel control and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yep .
User Interface: There's um on and off , um volume and channel , and skip to certain channels with the numbers .
Project Manager: Right okay . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well , one one way I would look at this um would be that we a approach the different controls in terms of um like control types , so that for the user it's very clear what they want to do where they go .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm yeah .
Marketing: Uh and also think maybe a little bit about sorta w w what would just wanna be acc easily accessible .
Project Manager: Oka
Marketing: For example if we had audio controls , those could be something people set up very rarely . Maybe they're un they're they're they're in a little area but covered up um ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: things like channel and volume um are used all the time , so we just have them right out on top , um very just very sort of self-explanatory . Um so maybe we need to think about having three or more groupings of controls , you know like one which are just the the habitual ones that should be right within your natural grip . And others that are uh also available
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and then others that are concealed .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Something like that .
Project Manager: Uh well , just to to wrap up quickly on this this little section {disfmarker} Have I just lost {disfmarker} Oh no . Um , uh do you think maybe that's the only kind of uh essential requirements , and then maybe just things that would be nice if it could do would be things like audio set up and display set up and things like that , maybe like a mute button , that sort of thing . Any of {disfmarker} you anything to add to that at all ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: I'll add it later , I guess {gap} the presentation .
Project Manager: Okay , right .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Project Manager: Um okay ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: if we can move on to next presentation then please . Um
Marketing: Sure .
Project Manager: Do you wanna {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Do you want to switch places ?
Marketing: Can this can this pl reach ? Can this plug come across ?
Industrial Designer: No . No .
Project Manager: Probably not , actually .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: So why don't I just pick up and move then .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Here , I'll just {vocalsound} Why don't I just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Just just switch them .
Marketing: Mm er , can you go up behind me ? Kinda {disfmarker} This is so {disfmarker} This {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} bit complicated . It'd be nice if everything was wireless , wouldn't it ?
Marketing: I'm all in a knot now .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um . So I can I can say already , I dunno whether this is for good or for bad but there'll be a lot of kind of uh redundancy in the in the the issues and the the uh {vocalsound} the things .
Project Manager: Oh , like overlap between what you said ?
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Oh well , for all you know that {disfmarker} that'll happen .
Marketing: Which is ma not necessarily a bad thing , but may what I've already started doing is cr I created a slide in in my presentation here so um so that we kind of think well what's the cumulative effect of what we've taken from your ideas and and mine , because certainly I I have a hard time separating separating things completely .
Project Manager: Mm hard to know what {disfmarker} where your role ends , yeah .
Marketing: Obviously obviously what you've just told me what you've just told me impacts a lot on what um like market research mm that that I've been {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So how do I how do I get this up ?
Industrial Designer: Um function F_ eight .
Project Manager: Uh pr yeah , press function and F_ eight , yeah .
Marketing: Okay . Okay . Alright . So {disfmarker} F_ eight ?
Industrial Designer: Function , the blue button . Next to the control on the left . Yeah .
Marketing: Oh , and F_ eight . Okay .
Industrial Designer: You have to push it together .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Okay , I think that that's doing it now .
Industrial Designer: Nope . Try that again .
Marketing: Uh , again ?
Industrial Designer: Wait .
User Interface: Think maybe the the wire in the back might be loose .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah , you wanna {disfmarker} Oh oh here we go .
Marketing: Um ,
Industrial Designer: Yep , there we go .
Project Manager: There you go .
Marketing: {vocalsound} okay great . Okay . Just um {disfmarker} Before I bring this up what I'll just say is um what I've what I've done is tried to collect some information so that I can then relay this to to you guys so that it's {disfmarker} now becomes a collective thing . And then kind of lead us in the direction of deciding , 'kay what what are our options , what should we decide and do you know what I mean , so .
Industrial Designer: {gap} Increase that 'cause we can't see the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: That's much better .
Project Manager: Right . Can you um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: There you go .
Project Manager: Right , okay .
Marketing: Okay . Alright . That would be {disfmarker} Okay . So um does that make sense ? So what I basically got is I just looked into some information and sort of th tried to think about how how we could review it and how we could {disfmarker} and what kind of decisions we could take away from it and then maybe by the end of just looking at some of these things we can think about what are our priorities . 'Cause certainly there's lots of different information to go through . So um I'm thinking here about uh primarily about customer needs , that we start with the customer , and w you know , what they want and what are issues with with um existing products . Uh to think about trends and also about {disfmarker} try and connect that as you see with the company vision which is about fashion in electronics . Um and then , as I say uh w we'd like to prioritise our design features from this and um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Bouncing on top . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Dunno . Okay . Um .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So this is what I've found here , um a lot of this is new to me , so we'll just read through together . Um , users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls . So they find them ugly . Most people find them ugly . Um {vocalsound} the vast majority would spend more money for it to look fancy as well , we'll see later , the vast majority would spend more money for um slightly more intuitive control , such as voice recognition .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay I'm gonna {disfmarker} we'll look at that in a second . Um most people use only a f a very slim portion of all the controls . So I guess what we're looking at here is people want this h technology , they tend to use the most simple controls and overall they find remote controls to be something they don't {disfmarker} doesn't really appeal to them .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So I think what we're doing is we're trying to take like {disfmarker} if for me this is sorta like three different different um inspirations , you know , one is that we want uh something that's high-tech but we want it to seem easy . And in spite of the primitive side of it and the very high-tech side , we want it to just be an appealing piece of equipment in people's hands . Um , {vocalsound} frustrations . They get lost a lot , s as it came up in our last meeting . Um , takes time to learn how to use them . This is uh why I mention when Craig was uh showing us some ideas that we actually try and group controls , so d it doesn't just look like a big panel , kinda like when you you look at , you know , a new computer keyboard , or something that is quite explanatory . If you want audio , if you want visual , then you have those . Um and I will admit I don't know what R_S_I_ stands for .
Project Manager: Repetitive strain injury .
Industrial Designer: Is installing a new remote control something that people {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh , no , that did not come up at all . Um so here here is another um sort of a a review here of the main things . I also found that most people would uh adults at least would pay more for voice recognition . Now apparently we do have access to all the tech cutting edge technology in remote control . So I dunno if that's possible we might consider getting into it . Um . {vocalsound} And and again here as we sort of move m sort of thin start thinking about how we wanna sell and market this , I think a recurring theme here is the company wants it to be {disfmarker} wants us to make something that's fashionable and sleek and trendy .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um people {vocalsound} uh additionally aren't aren't liking the appearance of their products , so we wanna think about as we take all the sort of the techie features how we can um put that into a unit which is which people like .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: You know , they like the aesthetics and the ergonomics .
Project Manager: So want something that looks good and is easy to use , big priorities .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah , so you know just c looking at what what Craig um Craig's i uh ideas are s sorta tell me that maybe what we wanna do is try and um separate the different things that we wanna include in this . So if we do say well we want there to be all the technology will we try and make that almost be like optional technology . You know , it's like like I find a lot of T_V_s these days , something really like about 'em is if you wanna just turn 'em on and off you can , but they have little panels where you click and there's just like tons of features you go through .
Project Manager: Mm . So it {disfmarker} you wanna group all the different kind of types of functions together , you know .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: That's {disfmarker} I think it's a good idea .
Marketing: Yeah . That's s that's sort of the um {disfmarker} But I {disfmarker} I'm {disfmarker} my hope here is that I'm putting out this information so that we can then say okay , well how do we collectively move on with it .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay .
Marketing: Um I I haven't brought out one specific marketing idea , although my sense is that what we should try and think about is what are the current trends in materials and shapes and styles , and then use that .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: But not let that confine us technologically .
Project Manager: Okay . Right .
Marketing: So Alright ? Any um comments on all of that ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well , um one of the things that we have to decide on by the end of the meeting is who we're gonna be um {disfmarker} who's our our target audience , our target market .
Marketing: That's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um , so if we want something that that looks good and is easy to use , but has y is fairly powerful product , whatever , who do we really want to aim that at ?
Marketing: Yeah . Okay .
Project Manager: I mean {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Where's the money , maybe .
Project Manager: Yeah , who wou who would have the money to spend . Well i if if like twenty five Euro is our is our selling price then you can imagine ,
Marketing: Yeah . And who watches T_V_ . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: well I don't {disfmarker} I'm not really sure how much that will retail at .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: But you want {disfmarker} it's somebody who's not gonna just use the remote that comes with their telly , I suppose , they're gonna actually go out and buy one .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So , who do you think we're aiming this at ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um , I think it'll be the mid range to the high end market , in terms of people . 'Cause twenty five Euros for a remote , how much is that lo locally in pounds ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's about sixteen , seventeen pounds , I think .
Industrial Designer: Is that too {disfmarker} is that a lot of money to buy an extra remote or a replacement remote ?
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: okay .
Industrial Designer: Um so maybe not the high end range , but maybe middle , middle up-ish . Kind of .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: You know how much ? I dunno I guess you pay , what , ten ten quid for a remote ?
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Like a simple replacement , right . I mean if you lost your remote and the first thing you just wanna go out and get ,
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: would you {disfmarker} how much would you pay ?
Marketing: This this kinda touches on your comments there , David . These are the age groups which we have information on
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and these are {disfmarker} this is a table of h what people would pay more for a certain feature .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay
Marketing: Just gives us a rough idea of where the w the will to spend money on T_V_ equipment is .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Mostly focused around the twenty five age group .
Project Manager: Yeah , so do you think we're we're aiming at a fairly young market then ?
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Sort of young professional , kind of . Mm-hmm
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , okay .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um do you think then uh voice recognition is something we should really seriously consider ? What what do you think , Craig ?
User Interface: Well , did you not say it was the the adults that were going for the the voice recognition ? Sort of the the older group .
Marketing: Uh , yeah , it's the {disfmarker} Yep .
User Interface: Uh f
Marketing: It does it does fit with the market that we're sort of identifying ,
Project Manager: N yeah .
Marketing: in terms of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think we are gonna have to narrow it down , to say let's target these people and give them what they want
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: and 'cause you know , there needs to be some kind of selling point to it .
Marketing: Yeah . Sure . Sure .
Project Manager: So um anybody {disfmarker} anything there to add {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Just kind of young professionals , uh th like {vocalsound} if we are going to include speech recognition , it's kind of between fifteen and thirty five seems to be like a really high response to that . So we could say that was our target .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: I I think twenty five to thirty five is is is fair to add that in as a group as well
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: because that's more than half your group of people who are willing to at least try and use your technology .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah . Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay , so fifteen to thirty five , look fairly young .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: You know , they have bit of expendable income to spend on this sort of thing .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think perhaps that age group is significant as well because those are people who use the computer ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: who are familiar with their {disfmarker} with computers in in their everyday work .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think people who are maybe about {disfmarker} I wouldn't say thirty five ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: but people who are about forty-ish and above now would not be so dependent and reliant on a computer or a mobile phone or something like that .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . But {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , sure .
Industrial Designer: So these are people who are gadgety , right ?
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: People who are u growing up used to , you know in schools and in universities ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: when you go on to their working lives , people who would you know regular
Project Manager: Yeah . So they'll not sh not shy away from something quite high-tech .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah . Mm .
Project Manager: That that's that's a good point .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um okay , so um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so shall we make the decision uh to include speech recognition
Marketing: If we can .
Industrial Designer: I I think one thing we should try not to avoid is not to say we have to use speech recognition right now ,
Project Manager: if we can .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: because um , based on what you've go y everybody's saying , right , you want something simple .
Project Manager: Okay . Why is that ?
Industrial Designer: You want basic stuff and you want something that's easy to use . Speech recognition might not be the simplest thing for somebody to use .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Could it be an on off thing ?
Industrial Designer: Um ,
Marketing: Like if you want it on {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but what I'm saying is that we're we're trying to lock ourselves into a s particular kind of technology ,
Project Manager: Where you can activate it and deactivate it ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: rather than focusing on on exactly what are the features that we're gonna say , and then , you know , say speech recognition is good for this , speech recognition is not good for this .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah . Sure .
Industrial Designer: So maybe we should {disfmarker}
Marketing: Sure .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I suggest that we think about speech recognition ,
Marketing: Yeah . Sure . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: anyway it's a {disfmarker} it's something that can be used to fulfil a function , but at end of the day we don't look at the technology , but we look at the function first .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Sure . Yep .
Project Manager: Uh okay , well do you wanna um give us your presentation
Industrial Designer: Okay , sure .
Project Manager: and then then we can {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: um might have been a good idea to all deliver our presentations and then discuss , but this is this is how we're {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , it's good {disfmarker} well it's good to get ideas out while they're fresh in mind .
Project Manager: Yeah , exactly , yeah .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh it's something that's just occurred to me as well is if we make it um speech reco if we incorporate speech recognition , that's appealing to people um maybe with a physical disability as well .
Marketing: Not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um .
Marketing: Yeah . And not losing . And also it helps in terms of people not losing this ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: you know they {disfmarker} they're saying oh it's {disfmarker} I lose it in the couch .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {gap} like we're kind of what we're b sort of getting in into here is mating different uh design features together
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: that they {disfmarker}
User Interface: I reckon one problem with speech recognition is um I've actually seen one of them used and uh the technology that was in that one wasn't particularly amazing , so you end up yelling at the control for hours .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Really ?
User Interface: Channel up .
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh really , you've seen one before .
Project Manager: Do you think maybe we need like further advances in that kind of area until it's worthwhile incorporating it though ?
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it'd probably quite expensive to put in .
Industrial Designer: Sorry , do you mind passing me my notepad .
Project Manager: Mm . Course not .
Industrial Designer: Thanks . Cool ,
Project Manager: There you go .
Industrial Designer: um . Okay . Um .
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: Well this is just the working design um .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Well this is just what {disfmarker} how I would go about it . Um I guess I try to define like what we're doing now , try to define what we're trying to get done . Um I think in a practical way , we kind of know what it is .
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: We've used it , we're familiar with it , but we're {disfmarker} we can't n we haven't narrowed down um exactly what the things we're trying to fulfil , like {disfmarker} Besides the basics , I think back {disfmarker} in the back of our minds we know what the basics are . Has to change channels , has to change volume , but in like specifics , right , which one of the basics are you trying to target . Um are there certain parts of the basics that are more important or less important than the basics ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um and I just {disfmarker} the idea is just to get everybody to um {disfmarker} I usually {vocalsound} have a have have a design that's there as a basic , so , you know , things that {disfmarker} to start everything going . But I guess everybody does have some idea , so I don't think um there's a need for that . Um okay this finding things is a little bit confusing , so I'll go into the diagram first . It just explains how the process goes through , from a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: from the basic technology point of view , the basic steps that you need um in the diagram and in this slide probably works better . Um okay , you need some power source . 'Kay , a battery or something , to keep it going .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um and that power source is important because it ties you down to um how long the device will last . Um it ties you down perhaps a bit later on in terms of the technologies
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: um how far you can transmit the signal or the complexity of the functions that you want .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Like for example , voice recognition , right . That might be constrained because that {disfmarker} you might need to power a microphone , you might need to power other things , so that's one perhaps constraint there . Um {vocalsound} Th Okay , the basic thing is there's a user interface where people punch a button or talk into it or smile to it or blink their eyes , whatever .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: You know , and that um picks up an input from a user , um uh a logic {disfmarker} a series of logic has to decide what the user is telling the device , and the device has to r you know , based on you push button A_ , so I will do something with button A_ . So maybe button A_ is the power button , okay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um and then it needs to be able to send the signal out to the device itself which is the receiver here . Um and I think that's about it in terms of my design um . It's fairly general , um and I guess the purpose of this is also not to restrict you in in the way you're thinking ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: like um voice recognition , right , um , if it's something which is important then we just add more power rather than having a thing that we don't have enough power . So it's not really a constraint in that sense ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: but I mean these are functionally , you know , the base ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: what the technology has to do .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Um so I guess the rest of it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: I think we should maybe you you wanna go back to what the functions are ? I think that's more relevant to a discussion ?
Project Manager: Uh .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Well , do you wan do you wanna finish up your your whole presentation then ?
Marketing: Sure . Sure .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , w I'm done .
Project Manager: Are you are you all done ?
Industrial Designer: More or less . Yeah . Ps Oh , it's just putting the rest of it into words , but it's essentially the same thing .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Um you have a transmitter , an input device , logic chip ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: you know , stuff like that .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: And like on the {disfmarker} means {disfmarker} b
Industrial Designer: I guess this would be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Since we're on the topic of the technology , uh are there any like {disfmarker} what are our options ?
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Alright , what's what i in {disfmarker} Is this the only way that we go about it , or are there other thin
Industrial Designer: Um , these these aren't technology options in that sense . This is just um
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: a basic principles and basic components that are needed .
Marketing: The basic principle of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: For example , if you needed um if you needed to add uh a voice recognition , right , then your user interface would be split ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: broken down into more components , right ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: which you have a microphone , the V_R_ and stuff like that .
Project Manager: Oh . So this just show how we're kind of modularising the whole thing .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh Yep . Yep . So each component represents one function ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: but I think the basic functions are the logic , the transmitter , um and the receiver , okay ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and the power are things that you won't have to care about .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um and those are things that based on what your user interface requires then we'll add more functionality to it .
Project Manager: Yeah . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um there might be one other consideration which would be that the the transmission between the remote control and the T_V_ for example .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay , um are we gonna restrict ourselves to using the traditional technologies of infra-red thing ?
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Because that's something you need to actually be physically be pointing to . Right .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Well well a worry that was was expressed in the new requirements was that if we made this too complex it would e it would effect um how long how long it took us to get this to market , so I th suspect it might be a good idea just to restrict our kind of our creative influence on this on the user interface and not worry so much about uh how we transmit it
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: um because I mean it it's tried and tested intra-red , so we could stay with tha
Industrial Designer: There might be one other problem with the transmission , um in particular right now , since we're talking about voice recognition . Um if somebody's gonna h talk to the device , you ideally want them to hold it to them .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm
Industrial Designer: I it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh , yeah .
Industrial Designer: you may not require that ,
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: but you know , um it's it's
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: it's something very natural , I guess , you know , to hold it , to signal to the user ,
Project Manager: Yeah , mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and push a button maybe to start s talking about it .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Then you need to send the signal out , so because if you're using infra-red , the line of sight um say the T_V_'s at that chair , and I'm standing in front of here and the transmitter is here , it blocks it .
Project Manager: Mm . Mm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So in that sense , there's not really a restriction
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: but it's something which you may have to think about later on in the process .
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: Not so much further down .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: And um just a clarification before we finish this . Uh does c is our controller is it have the option of being um on a standard uh frequency as all of the other equipment , so that the one controller can control several pieces of equipment ?
Industrial Designer: There's there's not much specific specific information ,
Project Manager: W
Industrial Designer: but I think that um one indication of infra-red mean that you're just targeting traditional devices . Because infra-red is something which everybody has .
Project Manager: Yeah . W Well well we've um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: In the new requirement spec they said just to focus on the T_V_ ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Just to T_V_ , okay .
Project Manager: so that's what we should do for now I think . Something I was wondering about was the power .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Um , is it worth considering like having like a charging unit as opposed to just regular batteries ? I mean is that something we really want to go into , do you think ,
Industrial Designer: There's a there's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: or should we just consider running on regular batteries ?
Industrial Designer: Okay , from from a from a component point of view there's added complexity , and you add cost to it ,
Project Manager: Uh-huh . Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: um and then there's probably the fact that you need another physical component . You need a docking cradle , for example , for you to put it in to charge .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Or you need to get the user to plug it in .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay ,
Industrial Designer: Um and most users are very f use already used to the idea of buying batteries and putting it into the controller .
Project Manager: so {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But unless the controller's gonna consume a lot of batteries , like he's gonna run through like twenty batteries a month ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: then I don't think rechargeable is something we should {disfmarker} you know , we really need to care about .
Project Manager: Okay , so just stick to to regular {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um .
Project Manager: Okay . Um , right . So basically the um {disfmarker} I'm just gonna just recap uh what I said at the start , was that um the the whole point of this meeting was to f absolutely finalise who we're gonna aim this at ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and what exactly the product's gonna do .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: So um just to recap on {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Are we all happy about the idea of um aiming the product at um the fifteen to thirty five bracket ? Um and also the funct the the actual functions of what it's gonna do .
Marketing: Yeah , that's good .
Project Manager: Do you wanna recap on that , Craig ?
User Interface: Um .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think we just say that it was gonna be the the most basic stuff possible . Um on off , up and down channels , up and down volume and uh skip to a channel .
Project Manager: Okay , right .
User Interface: Ta .
Marketing: And is it going to include any of the uh the more advanced features , or are we gonna eliminate those ?
User Interface: Um I think we include mute , but apart from that um I think we just {disfmarker} we'll go for the simpleness .
Industrial Designer: Okay , I think
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay . R is it is it is it s is it not an option still that we include some things just as a sort of under {disfmarker} like sort of under a door or some {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , it's as optional functions .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: 'Cause what what I'm {disfmarker} I'd be a bit worried about is if someone was h had previously developed habits of expecting to control surround sound or this and that with their controller and then and then they , you know , w they get ours and w it's doesn't have that .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I dunno if that'd be a problem .
Industrial Designer: Another thing that you were saying about categorising the controls ? Um maybe I could suggest we we break them down into three simple categories .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: One would be audio controls ,
Marketing: Yeah . Okay .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: one would be video controls , and the other one would be a device .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Um this may not map very well to advanced functionality especially , but I think that um from a manufacturer's point of view , from a person designing the device ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but I think from a point of view of a person using the device , you know a T_V_ is something they see and something they hear ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: um it's something they do other things to like turn it on and turn it off . I mean like so what we could have is like three buckets , right , where we could throw things into ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: like if we want this feature , let's throw it into there , and then from there decide whether it's basic , or it's non-basic .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I mean it might help with the visualisation .
Marketing: 'Kay , okay . Like that . Okay .
Industrial Designer: And it would actually help with the component build as well .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay , right .
Marketing: Mm okay , great .
Project Manager: Um , okay well I gotta kind of {disfmarker} got five minutes to wrap up now . Um next thing we're doing is having lunch . Whoohoo . Um and then we're gonna have thirty minutes of working on the next stage . Um so I'll be putting the minutes of this uh this meeting into the project documents folder . Um so uh I guess just to just to confirm that we know what we're doing in the next {disfmarker} well in the thirty minutes after lunch anyway ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um for uh our Industrial Designer , you're gonna be thinking about the components concept . Um User Interface Designer gonna be thinking about our user interface , and marketing you're gonna be thinking about trend watching . Um and you'll all get specific instructions as well . So um I dunno , just just to to ask now if you've got anything else you've thought about while we've been talking .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um , do you wanna start with David . Anything else to say at all ?
Industrial Designer: Mm no , not really .
Project Manager: No , okay . {vocalsound} Andrew ?
Marketing: Um yeah , just {disfmarker} I just wanted to ask then before we wrap up , shall we agree for sake of um sort of clarity and when we when we r resume that we'll u use this idea David's proposed , where we think of these three sort of buckets and anything anything we discuss about them is sort of , okay , we're talking about this .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah I think that's definitely a good idea .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: Shall we do that , then ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay , great .
User Interface: Um just about the three buckets , um what would go in the the device functions one ?
Industrial Designer: Um things like on off . Because they don't have anything to do with what you see . I me mean in terms of picture and the entertainment value ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: you know , um so um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: And and channel .
Industrial Designer: And channel . Because the on off also goes , you know , like on off like power , not on off sound .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Not on off video . Although you don't turn off the video on your T_V_ , but um you might wanna you know turn off the sound ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: say you wanna pick up the phone , there's a mute button , right , so you you have you have a choice of putting it on to um others or a device .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Device is basically anything which we can't categorise , right . We put it out .
Project Manager: Okay , so you're gonna have um audio which is gonna be like you know your bass settings and actual volume {disfmarker} hi
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , anything to do with what you hear , right . You you put that into audio .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And then video is anything that you can see .
Project Manager: Okay , and then visual {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay , so brightness , contrast , things like that ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um . Yep .
Project Manager: and then just actual device things ,
Marketing: Colour , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: like what channel you're watching , turning on an off ,
Marketing: Sure . Sure .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: stuff like that .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay , um {disfmarker}
Marketing: And then k I suppose quite likely what would happen is in the d device category there might be some which are just like the habitual standard and then others which are maybe a bit more {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Like random which we have no other place to put , but we need it somewhere there .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah . Sure , okay . Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um even even if it doesn't map very clearly what happens is that people at least have some in their mind .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: It's easy to use , I think that's one thing that um {disfmarker} and I guess from the component point of view it's easy to build as well
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: 'cause things are like fixed . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Um so yeah , I guess just things to think about are you know like the fact it's gotta look good ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because of who we're we're , you know , targeting this at . Um something maybe kind of quirky in design maybe . Make it kind of ergonomic kind of to hold ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: you know , things like that . Um , {vocalsound} so I guess I guess that's it . That's the meeting over .
Marketing: Great .
Project Manager: Whoohoo .
Marketing: Then we get to go find out what was picked up for lunch for us . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
| |
doc_2
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Marketing: Hello .
Project Manager: {gap} . {gap} .
Marketing: Yes , I made it . English from now on {vocalsound} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Drawing or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah just testing .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm ? English .
Industrial Designer: Just kidding .
Project Manager: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: So annoying .
Project Manager: Break is over .
Marketing: Ooh it works .
Project Manager: Whoo .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Spicy .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Spicy .
Marketing: Where are are all the other presentations ?
Industrial Designer: I just put it in the in the shared folder so it should be {disfmarker}
Marketing: The conceptual or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: yeah I think so . Yeah , conceptual design . What or whatever does it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah . Because I see only my own presentation {vocalsound} {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No no no , can you go back one ?
Marketing: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh 'cause it has to be PowerPoint pre yeah components design , that's it .
Marketing: This ? {gap} I'll just put it in there .
Project Manager: So , he's coming .
Industrial Designer: {gap} . {vocalsound} I did get a bit more done than the last time ,
Marketing: Or not .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Oh okay .
Industrial Designer: 'cause I knew that I didn't have time so I just copy and paste everything into the {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ah ,
Project Manager: Ah . She {gap} .
Marketing: I can't cut and paste it into the other folder but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You can look at the final report , 'cause I have to record everything we are deciding and such , so I'm trying to write it down between everything else .
Marketing: Move to meeting room .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sometimes I have these pop-ups or these sounds and there's nothing there ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Oh .
Industrial Designer: and also with {disfmarker} I don't know how to use PowerPoint , so it takes me forever to get something done with it .
Marketing: Yeah me too , {gap} .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I I've got the same problem as well . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Here we go again . Welcome . Uh we have again three presentations and then we have to decide on what concepts the mobile phone has to uh {disfmarker} f the remote control has to support .
Industrial Designer: Thi
Project Manager: So who wants go .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: Yes ?
Industrial Designer: Who wants to start ?
Marketing: Me first again or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah sure . Doesn't matter .
User Interface: Oh . No . Yeah . No problem
Marketing: yeah . Alright . Did you open it already or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: no . Ah . Ah . Yes . So welcome to the marketing presentation once again . Um this time about trendwatching . {vocalsound} Uh well there has been inv investigation again , in the in the remote control market . Uh it shows a number of developments . Uh I will address them uh in a moment . Um fashion watch watchers uh have detected the trends for young public , because that's our public . Um well fruit and vegetables will be will be the most important theme for clothing , uh shoes and furniture . And the feel of the material is expected to be spongey . So um the developments I will address them {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: oh yeah well this is the fruit and vegetables looks of fresh bright colours . So to give you an idea . Um well the developments ? Uh development one . {vocalsound} Uh well most important aspect for remote control happens to be a fancy look-and-feel . Instead of the current uh functional look-and-feel . Um well fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and the interface . And the second most important aspect is that a remote control should be technological uh innovative . Um well it stands for the use of technical features that do not exist in current remote controls . I think we pretty much covered that with our screen and um and speech recognition ,
Industrial Designer: Sound . Yeah yeah uh uh .
Marketing: so I don't expect that to be a problem . And the third development um is that the remote control should be easy to use . Um {disfmarker} Well the first aspect uh was twice as important as the second aspect,w which was twice as important as the third aspect .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So um that kind of gets you this ratios . So fancy look-and-feel uh is the most important uh point of attention .
Project Manager: {gap} .
Marketing: Uh so the fruits and vegetables in combination with the spongey material . Um well technolog technological innovation , we've covered that pretty much I guess . Um and easy to use , I don't think that will be problem . So my point of attention is especially this part .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: That this will be a crux . So that was the marketing uh presentation . I had only one document left .
Industrial Designer: And shall I go first ?
User Interface: Yeah . No . I I don't mi I don't mind .
Industrial Designer: So I {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah sure . No .
Marketing: So kind of this {disfmarker}
User Interface: Do you want to go first ? Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} So a k a small example .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Kind of this this look .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh nothing about the buttons but just sponge kind of thing , and and some fruit and colours
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I dunno . {vocalsound} Just made a quick design .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Cool . {vocalsound} Yeah you're just the user interface hmm ?
User Interface: It's better than than my uh drawing . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Alright . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah okay but I have to design the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh components .
Project Manager: Yeah layout .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah okay .
Industrial Designer: Oh no .
Marketing: Yeah . It's okay .
Project Manager: You probably opened it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah true . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: F_ five .
Marketing: F_ five .
Industrial Designer: Alright . So {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'm dealing with the components design . Um let's see . I uh used some design examples we had uh from similar products . And I used uh possibilities from our manufacturing department about current components which will have to be implemented in the design . That's why I had to , wanted to go first . Well they gave me um an idea about what people want . We're f mainly focusing on this group , but I want to make the distinction clear . Uh I could not drag the pictures into the the slides so s so I don't have examples of how it looks like . But it comes down to what you uh what you think we should do with the spongey and the fruity looking uh type . If you , the young dynamic people want soft primary colours uh , which looks like fruits you know , you can {disfmarker} and shapes that are curved and not uh solid straight lines anymore . So this basically um yeah goes on to what you were mentioning earlier . There is a lot of um {vocalsound} factors involved in choosing the components .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: There's a lot of options that we have to discuss . Uh for example the energy source . we have four types . The basic battery . Uh we have a hand dynamo , which we yeah we Dutch refer to it as the kneipgatt .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh the kinetic provision of energy which means if you move the thing , if you shake it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Which will be fun for toddlers right , if they wanna use the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And uh of course solar cells . But I dunno how we would use that into the design of the actual product .
Marketing: Wi an indoors .
Industrial Designer: So uh my {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah okay .
Marketing: Oh .
Project Manager: Calculator's can do it .
Industrial Designer: yeah also also in you know countries where there's n isn't much light like in Scandinavia , they wouldn't be y able to use it half of the year you know .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So that's not cool either . So um {vocalsound} for the uh a case , there's uh the traditional uncurved flat hard case . Single curved , which means that it has uh curves in one dimension . Or the double curved . Um {vocalsound} I wasn't able to finish my uh personal preferences sheet , but well you know that we will have to go for the double curved 'cause it's daring and different from what we have now . Uh the case materials .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well we have all kinds of hard uh materials like the the hard plastic , the wood and the titanium . I would definitely go for rubber 'cause it fits most in what people wanna see nowadays .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um poo , this is a lot of text . I wasn't able to organise this yet . We have yeah several uh interface designs . Uh we can use a scroll buttons for the menus , but we already kind of decided to go for the f for the pushbuttons , for the the arrow buttons .
User Interface: Yeah . Pushbuttons . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So that's not really interesting .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Electronics ? Yeah , {vocalsound} maybe we wanna decide on what electronics to use {gap} the advanced chip I think is easiest to implement uh for the production , 'cause they they can print it better . Um {disfmarker} Yeah . I think this is about it . Yeah I was working on some per personal preferences . I first uh chose for the battery , 'cause yeah I'm traditional and that's the most obvious , easiest choice to go to . But I really think that we should maybe uh think about the kinetic energy ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: where you have to move the thing to be able to use it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: As an optional uh feature .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Or combine uh both with a with one uh
Project Manager: Uh I think you can only fit one uh source of energy on the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah maybe we {disfmarker}
Marketing: I guess we can only choose one .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I can imagine that the kinetic uh type energy source would be more expensive to make . But it is more longlasting , that the people don't have to ever buy batteries again .
Project Manager: Yeah
Marketing: Yeah . And it's more fun .
Project Manager: I didn't receive any info uh .
Industrial Designer: And it's also more fun yeah . I always chuck my uh remote control around , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , just playing with it
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: and {disfmarker} especially when the material's rubber . It can be done , I mean , you can't harm it ,
Project Manager: S yeah it's safe .
User Interface: {vocalsound} And throw it {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah y exactly .
Marketing: so it's a perfect combination I guess .
Industrial Designer: You don't have to be scared about bouncing it off the g floor and breaking it or whatever .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So that's the end of it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: 'Kay next .
Industrial Designer: Uh go ahead .
Marketing: So double curved is like this , this , this , or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No it means curved in two dimensions . So uh w single curved ? Uh let's say would be a b square box , but then with curves on one dimension .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: And double curved would means that it would have curves curves in every direction . Like three D_ . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Also in in height ?
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah okay .
Project Manager: Okay . Can we uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . One one uh very important thing I was uh yeah thinking about is the speech uh option . We were going to use that .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . So um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah um yeah that's one thing uh which I'm not sure uh of how to implement it uh into the remote control .
Project Manager: Well the visual representation is not there with speech
Industrial Designer: Design ?
User Interface: No okay but it has to be combined with with the menu uh for functions and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but you can {disfmarker} Yeah . Just {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: So okay .
Project Manager: I think you can just uh match the speech commands with the functions that are already present .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So I don't think you have to design anything else for that .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah with the programme .
User Interface: But do uh j do we uh do the speech just for the basic options , for the simple buttons ?
Project Manager: Both .
User Interface: For for everything ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: also for the advanced options ? Okay . Uh we have this {gap} very uh basic uh trendy design . Everybody says it so that's what's uh {disfmarker} yeah um {disfmarker} Yeah in the in the last uh meeting we uh we were yeah putting the the simple and the advanced options separated . That's yeah obvious . Um yeah . Pressing the the menu option uh will disable uh all other options on your uh remote control . And only the the L_C_D_ panel will uh light up and then you can only uh change the yeah the options .
Marketing: And and the and the buttons that you need to control it , I guess .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Um yeah design has to be very attractive but that's your your op your {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} {vocalsound} you have to uh delete this but this is the the the simple uh layout .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Uh display on the upper side with the the menu button and maybe a some sort of cancel button or save button .
Project Manager: That would be the back .
User Interface: I'm {disfmarker} The back .
Project Manager: Back and okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Back and okay yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Back and okay .
Project Manager: You did read the minutes I wrote ?
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You did read the minutes I wrote ?
User Interface: What ? A little bit I think but not not everything w
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh okay 'cause I pretty much summed up all the buttons there were . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay . Oh {vocalsound} I uh didn't read that .
Project Manager: I hate doing work for nothing . {vocalsound}
User Interface: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But this is the the basic uh design uh for the for the m yeah for the buttons .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} I wanted to to categorise everything . Uh with a speech display uh yeah , sound , everything you you noted in your uh minutes . Um every pushbutton has uh has its own uh LED light .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So you can uh yeah change uh m make it more trendy for for younger people . And uh if there are older people they wanted more uh yeah more uh luxurous {disfmarker} so that's an a also an option . Um that was it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That was it ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Uh {disfmarker} {gap} again . Ugh . {vocalsound} Okay so what we have to decide is what kind of components do we use ? Uh energy source , chip type , case type . And user interface . But I didn't see a clear distinction between these so I think what we have is okay . So we only , we already decided that kinetic would be the choice for energy .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Uh the case would be doubly curved . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And rubber . Rubber material .
Marketing: Rubber material .
Project Manager: Rubber material . And that's the only thing we have left .
Industrial Designer: Yeah we need the the chip on print to be able to support the the screen and uh and f audio function .
Project Manager: Oh okay . No it's easy . {vocalsound}
Marketing: So that's uh {disfmarker} is that is that the advanced chip ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Advanced chip . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Otherwise you would have a simple chip , just for pressing buttons . But we need more .
Marketing: Wow . Yeah . Alright .
Industrial Designer: I'm just thinking , this is not my department , but I I'm not sure what this is gonna cost ,
Marketing: Kinetic . Double curved .
Project Manager: Too {gap} .
Industrial Designer: to be able to m
Project Manager: Uh I didn't get any info on this . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: So 'cause we need to sell it for twenty five Euro a piece .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: That's gonna be difficult huh ?
Marketing: The cost of making it should be twelve and a half ?
Project Manager: I have total here .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah I don't know .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah .
Project Manager: I didn't get any information about that so {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap} . We're going to produce it in uh China so it's no problem .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Child labour man , we love it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , so it's cheap .
Project Manager: Who doesn't . Uh let's see . Is there a new thing ?
Marketing: Um well the interface type supplements .
Project Manager: Yeah the interface , maybe can {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh it's it's quite difficult because we we haven't got all the options uh {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Ooh . No . Uh do you have a picture of doubly curved case ? And could you put that in the group folder ? Of the project folder .
Industrial Designer: Um let me see . Wait a sec .
Marketing: If you go to your homepage or something , you should
Industrial Designer: Yeah I'm going there now .
Marketing: get your own information .
Industrial Designer: Inspiration .
Marketing: I got my fresh and fyoo fruity uh picture uh also uh over there , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Ah you didn't draw it yourself .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Ah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Too less time .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} yeah maybe it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , also the menu .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah that that w
User Interface: This is the the menu I was uh looking uh at .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah I was thinking of that also , with with a with a uh arrow .
Industrial Designer: Maybe it's easier {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Arrow .
User Interface: Arrow yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So that indicates that there's an menu under that menu .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah perfect .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} . 'S the target group .
Industrial Designer: Maybe it's easier if you guys come over here .
User Interface: S yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah sure . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: S see this is the the the standard traditional type , where the form uh yeah serves the function , you know .
Marketing: Oh yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's like really basic . But this m is more appealing to old people and we don't want that .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: This is what we're looking for . And th that means curved in both dire dire uh dimensions .
Project Manager: Oh okay . I see .
Industrial Designer: Not only like this but it has to be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah also like this . So you can hold it .
Industrial Designer: exactly . It has to be kind of instead of the PlayStation , the module . It has to be like the the Game Cube , you know ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: where your thumbs would be laying in the instrument and it has to be nice to hold . And {disfmarker}
User Interface: But it has also to {disfmarker} it it has also to be uh luxurous uh for for yeah rich people .
Project Manager: {gap} .
User Interface: Th this looks a little bit like like for only for children . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It ha
Project Manager: The children's story . Yeah I've got it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but that's that's the the problem uh yeah the dilemma actually ,
Project Manager: Distinction . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: 'cause we wanna appeal to the to the young public with fancy with flashy colours , and with a lot of shape . And {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , and the and the rubber , it it will look cheap always ,
User Interface: The colour {disfmarker} Yeah . Okay but the the colours , you you can make it uh make the colours with {gap} LEDs uh beneath the the buttons .
Industrial Designer: you know , with the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: If you press a button and you can disable the the colour LEDs for for people that don't like it .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: There is mobile phones , in which you can change the colour also of the lights .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Maybe we should consider this function .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: To customise it and so {disfmarker} I mean kids can make it look more flashy with different kinds of colours
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and people who want something , you know , different , or more uh design , they can go for one colour
Project Manager: Different . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: like uh for example this uh photo th camera .
Project Manager: Camera .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Cool . S underwater uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah submarine . {vocalsound}
Marketing: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Personally I think it's really ugly .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Just give me the thing that it's inside there {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah but this this the {gap} is for the {gap} .
User Interface: Very cheap uh cheap look .
Industrial Designer: maybe I'm too old for this stuff .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So those I think are all my {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: oh .
Project Manager: Ah yeah bright colours .
Marketing: Yeah . Also a kind of rubber uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And this is , this is with the curved that I mean .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: That's singly curved .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah ?
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: That should be nice .
Project Manager: Well we could make a compromise between that . But I don't know if it's worth the effort .
Industrial Designer: A compromise between what ?
Project Manager: Uh instead of doubly curved we take a single curved . So to appeal a little more to the all the public .
Marketing: So s
Industrial Designer: This , this would be uh single curved uh ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah there's only in in this dimension .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Like this . So curvy or not {gap} .
Project Manager: Also .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} Exactly . Exactly .
Marketing: Yeah so we keep it singly c single curved then ?
Project Manager: Yeah that would be an option . I don't know what you think .
Industrial Designer: I think the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I mean our aim is to make something different right ? To make something new .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: I would go for the double curved .
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah I'd agree .
Industrial Designer: And I I'm I'm thinking uh you know uh a drawing palette , where you have the shape for your thumb .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So it kind of holds nicely , something like that .
User Interface: Yeah but if you if you make it more curved we we can make more and more options for buttons .
Industrial Designer: Well this is really your decision but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: If you have uh it have it in your hand , you you you are not only um yeah you don't need one dimension but you can use other dimensions for pressing the the buttons .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . As well . You can make a trigger button or something like that .
User Interface: Yeah . Something to shoot at your television {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah or that that is the confirmation button or something ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: that you scroll with your thumb , with the arrows , and then confirm .
User Interface: That's {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: That would be a nice way to use it but {disfmarker} I mean , yeah , I'm thinking big already , and we need something that well that {gap} that you can able to use in one hand I think .
Project Manager: Different . Stands out . Or {disfmarker} Oh yeah a one hand uh solution .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So from top view it looks kinda like this . But from the side you you can have it also in a kind of shape .
Project Manager: {gap} can turn it maybe .
Marketing: Maybe because the the screen is on top you can have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: To switch from buttons to interface hmm . If you turn it a little . {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Marketing: Maybe you can c have this kind of shape . A little upwards . So that the screen is more
Project Manager: Oh yeah . Least you can easily see it .
Marketing: towards yourself , so you can easily see your screen .
Industrial Designer: How about {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well well you have it in your hand so it's a kind of an angle from your eyes to the screen . So then you have double double curved in some way . So this this is so the screen is positioned over here .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Oh . Something like that . And the buttons are more , well it's very thick now but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah I understand what you mean .
Marketing: That's uh that's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: How about we do a uh a pop-up screen , like the laptop .
Project Manager: If you can uh flip .
Industrial Designer: So that the only the simple functions will be visible at first .
Marketing: Yeah ? That that you can press it and then it comes up ? Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And then if you want {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh so you have a the the side view .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Something like that .
Marketing: But then the side view can be straight . If you have a pop-up screen . But I dunno if that's too expensive .
Project Manager: So and you want to be able to
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: I mean maybe it's too much {disfmarker}
Project Manager: make this
Industrial Designer: No uh like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: I would draw it like this . Let's say this is the side view . That you have a a screen that will come up here , and can go down that way . If you know what I mean .
User Interface: Okay . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So that it would come up like that .
Project Manager: Okay so the buttons are on top here , and you flip it over that way .
Industrial Designer: Yeah or {vocalsound} preferably even keep the simple buttons here , and then under the screen even you could put more more advanced buttons .
Project Manager: Yeah . Oh yeah . Yeah yeah yeah yeah . Right . Yeah that's good idea .
Marketing: Oh the advanced buttons . Right .
User Interface: That's {disfmarker} the the more advanced options were uh for the for the menu .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: But you you want {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: F for the L_C_D_ menu right ?
User Interface: okay . You just want to hide them all ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So w w
Project Manager: No not all because you need most of them , the arrow buttons .
User Interface: The {disfmarker} oh .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: But you can hide the okay and the back uh button .
User Interface: Yeah yeah yeah .
Project Manager: And the menu button also because when you flip it open {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: and you can maybe even drop the menu button because maybe if you flip it open it will auto activate amauto uh uh automatically .
Industrial Designer: Oh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Activate and th the {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: So {disfmarker} okay b but you have t you need some button to flip this open .
Project Manager: Why ? You could just make it mechanical .
Industrial Designer: True . True . But you can make a , yeah , you can make a trigger here . You know a simple uh {disfmarker} with a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah and it says menu and it flips open and then you have the buttons to control it , in combination with your {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's {disfmarker} but it's it's not
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Exactly .
User Interface: it's not very uh very strong uh {disfmarker} yeah if you drop it one time {gap} .
Marketing: True . It uh c it can go open .
Industrial Designer: Well yeah the the idea of it was , is that because you close it , you cover the L_C_D_ screen and it won't be vulnerable to scratches or whatever .
Project Manager: If you cover it with rubber . Mm .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: An adv an adv and it will be covered in some kind of uh thin rubber layer or something like that .
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . So it can bounce .
Industrial Designer: Exactly . Exactly . We just have to make sure that the closing mechanism won't break .
Marketing: Yeah , uh {disfmarker} It's very no it's very strong .
Industrial Designer: Th it's very solid yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah okay so that that may work .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: That actually will offer some extra protection for the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay but then we still have the the the thing of the the the shape . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: What kind of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah I was thinking , if if you have your hand , it this is your th
Project Manager: Harder .
Marketing: Yeah the lower part doesn't work I guess , so maybe you should try it over there .
Project Manager: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Okay . If this is your thumb , and this is your hand like that . With your uh wrist .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That you , that it would be kind of shape like this , you know . So it's easier to hold in your hand , to y f
User Interface: But when you are left-handed , that's that's a problem .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah . Yeah of course .
Project Manager: Maybe can design two versions .
Industrial Designer: Yeah then w then you would have to to make it like this .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: But that's that's very expensive uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Like like you drew here .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And maybe th then make this thicker also than the centre .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Give it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And ergonomical shape . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I would give it a female shape
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but uh yeah . Anyway .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The female shape yeah . With two uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Obviously . {vocalsound} Make it more appealing to guys .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: We we could make some some rubber uh some rubber uh yeah mouse , with which you can change uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I mean {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh yeah . Some uh k esk uh {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: and so if you {disfmarker} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah but but that's optional for later I guess .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: I mean , we have to make {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but we have hardware inside , which is {disfmarker} so it has to have some sort of basic shape .
User Interface: Some {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah .
Marketing: Yeah we we better so choose one {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And also the screen , you cannot mould it .
User Interface: No no no no . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You know kind of thing .
Marketing: Yeah so okay we should better choose one sh one shape .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: But that's the kind of the idea ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And then you can {disfmarker}
Marketing: so it lays good in the hand , and then on on the side with with your thumb ,
Industrial Designer: You can place the screen here , which can come {gap} .
Marketing: you you can you can use ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: yeah , you can use the button option {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So the keywords are primary co colours , spongey ?
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker} but then I w I would {disfmarker}
Marketing: Spongey .
Industrial Designer: I would do the arrows here , kind of thing .
Marketing: Spongey can be reached by means of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Those buttons ? And the simple buttons here ,
User Interface: {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so that {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . And and the and the control thngs in the middle ? The the the arrows ?
Industrial Designer: I Uh y eah that's what I mean .
User Interface: No the arrow's over here .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The arrows over here ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and here the s simple uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah and then numbers .
Project Manager: Buttons . Okay .
Marketing: Yeah . Alright .
Project Manager: I think that uh it's a nice design .
Marketing: Uh pretty nice design . Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's cool . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah it looks uh pretty fancy .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {gap} or do we wanna make its shape look like a banana or something ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I dunno .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh bananas {gap} wierd shape and other fruits also ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: so it's better to have um some sort of basic print and then a fruit print in some primary uh colours .
Industrial Designer: Yeah we could make {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know what what colours should the basic print be like ? Like some soft {vocalsound} green or something ?
Project Manager: Orange or something .
Marketing: Or {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker}
User Interface: Or blue ? Dark blue or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh yeah yeah , dark blue
Industrial Designer: We should use {disfmarker}
Marketing: and then and then very bright , uh a yellow banana , {vocalsound} an orange , uh a green apple , stuff like that ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: with very uh bright tones I guess .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah w we need very primary colours , like bright red , bright yellow .
Marketing: So you have something like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah but the primary colours w we can uh create with the with the LEDs on the on the remote control .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah okay yeah .
User Interface: If you we uh {disfmarker} yeah . If you make it uh just a yeah bl give it a blue colour , then it's just a neutral colour ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: also for the for the more uh yeah for the {gap} people .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Huh cool .
Marketing: Mm . {vocalsound} That doesn't really work . To draw , I guess .
Project Manager: No it's {disfmarker} {gap} .
Marketing: Oh . What's this ?
Project Manager: Yeah it's text .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: N no you have to exit . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You could also make line with uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: So that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . Two hours further .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} thickness . Oh .
User Interface: So that's blue .
Marketing: Oh . Wh why not go for the twenty ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . That's what I call painting .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Y {vocalsound}
Marketing: So that's that's a dark blue basic colour I guess .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah and then on top of that .
Marketing: It's pretty nice . And then uh {disfmarker} Oh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Some yellow .
Marketing: Yeah with some some yellow banana {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Banana colour .
Industrial Designer: And how about some uh some flashing standby lights ?
Marketing: Like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Like you have on the Samsung , well I don't like to call brands phones ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} the you know that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} 'cause I remember from one of our first meetings that uh people lose their uh remote controls often .
Marketing: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: So it {disfmarker} not not only in in the colours {vocalsound} of the LEDs , that we want something to keep it visible at all times , or {disfmarker}
Marketing: How do you mean ?
Project Manager: Yeah if you if flashing colour so you can't lose it , basically .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Some some {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Exactly .
Project Manager: Well I think it's a bit too much but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Maybe a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah an orange . Well alright well this is more like purple I guess ,
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: but {disfmarker} it's should be more real dark blue , so the contrast with the with the fruit objects is uh pretty high .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So uh yeah . That would be a nice uh nice device I guess .
User Interface: And which which colour should uh should I give the the display ? Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Who ?
User Interface: Or {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean , the the colour of the background of the display ?
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Ah well I don't guess it s has to be a sixty uh sixty six {vocalsound} five thousand uh colour , so yeah too expensive .
Project Manager: And then you can use yellow or semething . Why not ? {vocalsound} Aye .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So just just a {vocalsound} a blue blue backlight or something like that .
User Interface: Mm . Yeah .
Marketing: Green is too old-fashioned . But blue , blue's okay . J
Industrial Designer: As long as you loo {vocalsound} use uh high contrast between the the background and the foreground colour .
User Interface: Yeah
Project Manager: Like this .
User Interface: maybe a maybe a white a white backlight ?
Industrial Designer: So that people with uh with
Marketing: White backlight , and dark .
User Interface: Dark uh letters , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Whatever which is visible .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I know you sh you should test it under uh under a light conditions . I mean it's hard to tell uh I dunno .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And also for people who are a bit colourblind .
Project Manager: Colourblind yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . True .
Project Manager: No so that's mostly red and green I believe .
Marketing: Which which uh colour should the buttons be ?
User Interface: That's adjustable .
Project Manager: Woah . All all buttons ?
Marketing: Why adjustable ?
User Interface: Yeah ? Or not .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: No uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's how we are going to make it uh more trendy . Or is it uh too expensive ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: But {vocalsound} maybe I mean they have to they have to have some colour right ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's difficult .
Marketing: And if the background is very dark blue {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Blue . Maybe green .
Industrial Designer: But don't we wanna make the background the the bright colo colours ? So th the total of the thing is very bright ?
Project Manager: Yeah you can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Like the pictures I showed you guys . Those things were all like like bright red , bright red , flashy .
Marketing: Yeah ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm flashy .
Marketing: So more like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm bzz .
Marketing: Doesn't work very well . Uh . More like this colour .
Industrial Designer: Yeah something like that , something that stands out more .
Marketing: And then then yellow and orange and red objects on it or something .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: But then then again , which colour should the buttons be ? The the press buttons . Should they be white or black or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Red maybe .
User Interface: And it it looks quite cheap , that colour I think .
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Black .
User Interface: It's it's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The green ?
Project Manager: Why ?
User Interface: Yeah . I dunno .
Marketing: Yeah but it's pretty fresh , on the other side .
Project Manager: Yeah . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's actually a pretty trendy colour at the moment .
User Interface: It's it's trendy okay . But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: My couch is in that colour .
Project Manager: Ooh . {gap} . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Well it works pretty well .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And then time was up .
Project Manager: Uh not yet .
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Do you get a pop-up if we {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah within five minutes yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} That you have five minutes left or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: Y left yeah left and then uh I have to kick you out .
Marketing: So something like this .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: That should be pretty nice colour . But maybe the buttons , all buttons in red is maybe a bad contrast for colourblind people .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah .
Industrial Designer: No that's actu
Marketing: Because the {gap} of the green .
User Interface: But the but the buttons have their own LEDs or not ?
Project Manager: They have LEDs but they have a colour .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Red and green are actually the b the easiest to discriminate . Even for colourblind .
Marketing: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: They will see one of each as grey . But if you use uh green on blue , those kind of colours will look the same .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I think .
Marketing: So red buttons are okay ?
Industrial Designer: I think so .
Project Manager: You can make them red .
User Interface: Okay . That that's a default uh setting . The the red buttons .
Project Manager: Yeah . But I think you need to keep in mind that the LEDs are just extra light . {vocalsound}
Marketing: How do you mean ?
Project Manager: Uh they they don't determine the colour that much , I think .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay . Yeah I I was think about a red uh red LEDs and blue LEDs and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: 'Cause you have to print on them {disfmarker} you have a background
Marketing: No that's that's too busy I guess .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Each number is transparent .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh partly but you have to print on the number . Or the the sign .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So you can't {gap} change the colour so {disfmarker}
Marketing: You better bet better better keep the LED and the button itself in the same colour I guess .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: So just an extra
Project Manager: Bit of light .
Industrial Designer: You can {disfmarker}
Marketing: bit of light and attention .
Project Manager: Bit of feedback .
Industrial Designer: what we should do I think is is make kind of a see-through plastic button , with uh one coloured LED behind it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So that the whole button will shine
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: as the colour the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} And if you think about easy to use buttons , we have to , well we have to make it the shape so that it's easy to hold f for both hands ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but also that you can reach the buttons with your thumb , if you hold the machine .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay with {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} Don't mean to discourage you but {disfmarker} uh basically you two are going to work on the smartboard . Next thirty minutes to design something so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ah , right .
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: And the {disfmarker} You will do the evaluation .
Marketing: Of the product ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Which we don't have yet .
Project Manager: Yeah uh about {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So wh how should I do that ?
Project Manager: Yeah I don't know . {vocalsound} You probably get a mail .
Marketing: Oh okay . Or you you or you send it to me . Or just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Once they are finished . Yeah .
Marketing: because you are going to design it on this board right ?
Project Manager: Yeah but maybe you can do the evaluation {disfmarker} you don't have to evaluate yet but you can make a procedure which to follow . I don't know .
Marketing: Yeah . I I probably get instruction on that , how to do that ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: so I make another presentation I guess .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: I kn I know what's gonna happen in in yeah so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: About . Yeah . You have the basic idea .
Marketing: I've a basic idea .
Project Manager: And you two uh are going to do this . Look-and-feel and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So we're gonna work here ? On this sketchboard ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Good luck .
Industrial Designer: Alright . Thanks .
Marketing: Yeah . Alright so that's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So I {gap} uh make new page and uh be creative .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: But we have to do it at this moment , after th this meeting ?
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: Yeah you have uh
Industrial Designer: Thirty minutes .
Project Manager: thirty minutes .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Then we have to uh see something which we can uh
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: show to the management .
User Interface: Ah so this is basically the what what we are thinking about ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: I would yeah .
Industrial Designer: Shall we uh make a new uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah l let's just uh delete all these uh {disfmarker} or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Next .
Marketing: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I just {vocalsound} make a new one .
User Interface: Oh , next {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Oh and save this uh board .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: Just save it .
Industrial Designer: Huh ? Yeah I'll just I'll just keep it there .
Project Manager: Yeah okay but just press save and uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: It'll be fine .
Marketing: On the left . S so , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh sorry .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You can also include clip-art . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: So if you'll rather draw in paint or something {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Current colour ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay . Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Shall we make some outline sketches of the basic shape first ?
User Interface: Yeah . And then after that we can make the user uh inter interface .
Industrial Designer: Because {vocalsound} I I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} then look .
Industrial Designer: Yeah 'cause I have to uh focus on the on the basic look-and-feel design .
Marketing: This ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So how it's gonna look . And you have to think uh how we're gonna put the screen in it and those kind of things .
Marketing: Uh pretty accurate .
Industrial Designer: So if I'm drawing and you think okay I'm not gonna be able to put a screen in there , you have to correct .
Marketing: Oh we skip this I guess . Sound {gap} button press .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh do you mind if I draw in black then ? For normal sketches .
Project Manager: You can also include it . It's not much work .
User Interface: Oh no it's it's okay .
Marketing: Light only button user ca user interaction .
Industrial Designer: {gap} so we kind of want the girlish
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's included .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: figure .
Marketing: So the pl the plastic plastic buttons also help uh because of um they are only lit during interaction . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I'm not so good at drawing . Excuse me ?
Marketing: Well it's a good thing that the buttons aren't um , well that they are plastic , because then you can light up the light on {gap} when when they are usable .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: No uh uh .
Marketing: Maybe you should draw it very large {vocalsound} like this .
User Interface: Yeah but this part isn't uh functioning properly .
Project Manager: Yeah . Sensitive .
Marketing: Oh right .
Industrial Designer: How do we uh uh
Marketing: Erase ?
Industrial Designer: or insert text ?
Project Manager: I dunno . Maybe just start typing .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a bit uh large . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh that's a bit big . Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You also do the other sides . Not only on the front si uh the top side but also the the side view .
User Interface: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Ex exactly .
User Interface: L let's make first the the the all the views . The the front view , side view and the back view .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh I thought for the side view , that the w the basic section would be rather uh a bit thicker than the middle , where you're holding it with your {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Jesus . What do I write down ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Why can't I work here ? This is much easier . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Much easier , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: 'cause your fingers have to fit underneath and {disfmarker}
User Interface: The middle has to be very small so you can have it in your hand .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: I don't see a sign that the meeting is over yet but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Exactly but the uh but the upper side has to be a bit more like that I think .
Project Manager: No so I just work here a few minutes . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah the display ,
Industrial Designer: Uh don't you think ?
User Interface: we yeah we can put a display .
Industrial Designer: So the display we will put in here , the basic uh functions in here , where it's most reachable .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The {disfmarker}
User Interface: The the arrow functions . Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The th Exactly . Oh . This is hard .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: What do {disfmarker} {gap} don't have to draw it exactly do we ?
User Interface: No it's it's uh it's okay .
Industrial Designer: Wait . Let me try it one more time . Maybe I've uh {disfmarker} it's easier if I draw it in once . Okay , of course it will become way more ugly . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} You can make it m larger . Maybe it's easier to to draw uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . This'll take forever . It's fun to work with this pen .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um so , larger .
Marketing: Oh .
User Interface: Yeah that's that's the basic idea . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Wrong one .
Industrial Designer: yeah . So side .
Project Manager: Five minutes left before the meeting ends .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay . Um other views ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Alright .
User Interface: Yeah only if you are going to put buttons on the side of the unit .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's the question .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} Let's fill i fill in the buttons later .
Marketing: But we we {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So this is gonna be from the
Marketing: I is it {disfmarker} if if this is from the side {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: uh from {vocalsound}
User Interface: From the {disfmarker}
Marketing: woah . Steady .
Industrial Designer: yeah yeah . Sorry .
Marketing: Because there the screen goes up like that right ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So then it's like this ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah ?
Marketing: or {disfmarker} that's not convenient because then you have the screen like this and look like the {disfmarker} it's better to have it somewhat like this . Or does it flip all the way ?
User Interface: Yeah I'm I'm {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The the idea is that it has to flip up to here .
User Interface: May maybe it's it's easier to to integrate the the the L_C_D_ screen just into this this bubble . Because it do doesn't have to flip then .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Because we have en enough space for for making a an L_C_D .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah yeah yeah .
User Interface: Because here {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's better to to have this like this I guess , and then flip it like this .
Industrial Designer: True .
User Interface: But why why do we need uh the flipping uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} you can adjust the angle to which it flips . So it can also from this angle , it can flip all the way up to there .
User Interface: Okay . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You can flip it up to there if you want .
Marketing: Yeah . So w yeah . But we still keep the flipping mechanism .
Project Manager: Yeah we keep the flip ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Think so .
Project Manager: Keep the flip live .
Industrial Designer: Yeah because I think it will feel weird if you would make this smaller and this bigger or something that {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I dunno .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh the the shape is okay but {disfmarker} yeah ? I don't see the the yeah why why we should use the the flipping uh mechanism .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I thought it would be cool . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Because we {disfmarker} Okay yeah . It's it's for for for more trendy uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah but maybe {disfmarker} Yeah but maybe we we should then {disfmarker}
User Interface: Because we have enough space . H here we got uh the basic functions , the the arrow uh yeah button .
Marketing: Yeah there the middle {disfmarker} Sh sh shouldn't we integrate it ?
User Interface: Yeah and then h we sh mm .
Marketing: And then like i oh th {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: doh . Come on . So this is the shape . Oh . It hasn't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} . It doesn't aim so well .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay but the screen is a bit lower because if it falls on the other side , it doesn't fall on the screen .
User Interface: Yeah , then it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: So there's a layer of rubber on the side .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah . Definitely .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So no flipping but just {disfmarker}
User Interface: No flipping or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No flipping ?
Marketing: no .
User Interface: {gap} you wanted the flipping so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah I guess but uh I mean most votes count right ?
User Interface: But if you if you {disfmarker} If you drop it it it just breaks . And it has to be very strong because of the {gap} . Yeah kind of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's shaking .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Throwing and the kinetics . Oh . We better make we better make it like this . Eventually .
Industrial Designer: Yeah true true .
Project Manager: Yeah just light on top .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: And it's also for the for the children , it's yeah for people not sixteen years .
Industrial Designer: Yeah if you if you're going for the kinetics {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Safer . Mm . Yeah okay that {gap} the target group .
User Interface: But there are more {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh they are responsible enough to have a mobile phone , so also to to deal with their uh remote uh control . Yes .
User Interface: Yeah okay . That's true . Okay . Yeah ?
Project Manager: Well . I just uh ended the meeting .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I'm just thinking totally different designs also .
Project Manager: You two go design .
User Interface: Okay wi
Industrial Designer: Remember that the weird pocketphone thingy which looked like kind of a Gameboy .
Project Manager: Oh . By the way . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Maybe we should try something like that . But yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I uh thought up a name for our product . Yeah . It's called uh the Real Remote .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh right .
Marketing: Yeah ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} With a copyright sign after Real . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ooh . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright .
User Interface: {vocalsound} The Real Remote .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Alright .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I like it .
Project Manager: So maybe you can include that somewhere .
Industrial Designer: Okay . This can go .
Marketing: Good . Yeah . We should work in our own room right ? Or not ?
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah we have to f uh include that in our design as well .
Project Manager: I don't see any power cables here so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Let's see .
Marketing: Yeah . Yes .
Industrial Designer: What the hell's that ?
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think uh it's the sensors .
Marketing: See you two in half an hour uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Good luck . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yep . Okay that's the side . Ah it's it's okay . But do we want uh options on the on the side with the with the buttons ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I think we do .
User Interface: Or just leave it ? Uh could make an uh a volume button uh scroll , volume button .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah or j or also scrolling for the m yeah .
User Interface: For menu . Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah ? I dunno . We w kind of wanted to stick with the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . No , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah I'm just thinking , {vocalsound} if we i we wanna make something different
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: right ? So the with the scroll is is more futuristic than the standard arrow buttons .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think .
User Interface: Mm . Yeah you are going to design it so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
| |
doc_3
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Grad H: st
Grad F: So we 're on .
Grad H: Yeah . That 's better .
Grad F: And , {comment} somewhere is my agenda . I think the most important thing is Morgan wanted to talk about , uh , the ARPA {pause} demo .
Professor D: Well , so , here 's the thing . Um , why don't we s again start off with {disfmarker} with , uh , Yeah , I 'll get it . I 'll get the door . Um , I think we want to start off with the agenda . And then , given that , uh , Liz and Andreas are gonna be {pause} ten , fifteen minutes late , we can try to figure out what we can do most effectively without them here . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} so , one thing is , yeah , talk about demo ,
Grad F: OK . So , uh {disfmarker} uh , IBM transcription status ,
Professor D: IBM transcription . Uh , what else ?
Grad F:
Professor D: What 's SmartKom ? SmartKom ?
Grad F: Uh , we wanna talk about if w if we wanna add the data to the mar Meeting Recorder corpus .
PhD E: The data . The data which we are collecting here .
Professor D: What {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what are we collecting here ?
PhD E: Data ?
Grad F: So why don't we have that on the agenda and we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll get to it and talk about it ?
PhD E: The SmartKom data ?
Professor D: Yeah , right .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: Uh , right . Uh .
Grad F: Uh , reorganization status .
Professor D: Reorganization status .
Postdoc A: Oh . Files and directories ?
Professor D: Files and directories .
Grad F: Yep . Uh - huh . Absinthe , which is the multiprocessor UNIX {disfmarker} Linux . I think it was {pause} Andreas wanted to talk about segmentation and recognition , and update on SRI recognition experiments .
Professor D: Um {disfmarker}
Grad F: And then if ti if there 's time I wanted to talk about digits , but it looked like we were pretty full , so I can wait till next week .
Professor D: Right . OK . Well , let 's see . I think the a certainly the segmentation and recognition we wanna maybe focus on when An - Andreas is here since that was particularly his thing .
PhD E: And also the SmartKom thing should b
Professor D: SmartKom also , Andreas . Absinthe , I think also he has sort of been involved in a lot of those things .
Grad F: At least ,
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad F: yeah , he 'll t he 'll probably be interested .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad F: But .
Professor D: Um So , I mean , I think they 'll be inter I 'll be interested in all this , but {disfmarker} but , uh , probably , if we had to pick something {pause} that we would talk on for ten minutes or so while they 're coming here . Or I guess it would be , you think , reorganization status , or {disfmarker} ?
Grad F: Yeah . I mean , I think , Chuck was the one who added out the agenda item . I don't really have anything to say other than that we still haven't done it .
PhD B: Well , I mean , I uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} just basically that {disfmarker}
Grad F: So .
PhD B: maybe I said {disfmarker} maybe we said this before {disfmarker} just that we met and we talked about it and we sort of have a plan for getting things organized and {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: And I {disfmarker} and I think a crucial part of that is the idea of {disfmarker} of not wanting to do it until right before the next level zero back - up so that there won't be huge number of {disfmarker} of added ,
PhD B: Right .
Postdoc A: uh {disfmarker}
Grad F: Right .
PhD B: That {disfmarker} that was basically it . Not {disfmarker} not much @ @ {disfmarker}
Grad F: Although Dave basically said that if we wanna do it , just tell him and he 'll do a d level zero then .
Postdoc A: Yeah . Uh - huh . Oh , excellent .
Grad F: So .
Postdoc A: Oh , good .
PhD B: Oh , so maybe we should just go ahead and get everything ready , and {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yep . So , I think we do need to talk a little bit about {disfmarker} Well , we don't need to do it during this meeting .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad F: We have a little more to discuss . But , uh , we 're {disfmarker} we 're basically ready to do it . And , uh , I have some web pages on ts {comment} more of the background . So , naming conventions and things like that , that I 've been trying to keep actually up to date . So . And I 've been sharing them with U - d UW folks also .
Postdoc A: I 'm sorry , you 've been what ? Showing them ?
Professor D: OK .
Postdoc A: Sharing them .
Grad F: Sharing them with the UW folks .
Postdoc A: OK . OK .
Professor D: OK . Well , maybe uh , since that {disfmarker} that was a pretty short one , maybe we should talk about the IBM transcription status . Someone can {vocalsound} fill in Liz and Andreas later . Uh
Grad F: OK . So , we , uh {disfmarker} we did another version of the beeps , where we separated each beeps with a spoken digit . Chuck came up here and recorded some di himself speaking some digits , and so it just goes " beep one beep " and then the phrase , and then " beep two beep " and then the phrase . And that seems pretty good . Um , I think they 'll have a b easier time keeping track of where they are in the file .
PhD E: And we have done that on the {pause} automatic segmentations .
Grad F: And we did it with the automatic segmentation , and I don't think {disfmarker} We ne we didn't look at it in detail . We just sent it to IBM . We {disfmarker} we sorta spot - checked it .
PhD B: I listened to {pause} probably , uh , five or ten minutes of it from the beginning .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad F: Oh , really ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad F: OK .
PhD B: And {disfmarker}
Grad F: I sorta spot - checked here and there and it sounded pretty good . So . I think it 'll work .
Professor D: OK .
Grad F: And , uh , we 'll just hafta see what we get back from them . Uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: And the main thing will be if we can align what they give us with what we sent them . I mean , that 's the crucial part .
Grad F: Right .
PhD B: And I think we 'll be able to do that at {disfmarker} with this new beep format .
Grad F: Yep . Well , I think it 's also they are much less likely to d have errors .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: I mean , so the problem wi last time is that there were errors in the transcripts where they put beeps where there weren't any , or {disfmarker} and they put in extraneous beeps .
PhD B: Right . Yeah .
Grad F: And with the numbers there , it 's much less likely .
PhD B: Yeah , one interesting note is {disfmarker} uh , or problem {disfmarker} I dunno if this was just because of how I play it back , I say , uh , SND - play and then the file , every once in a while , @ @ {comment} uh , like a beep sounds like it 's cut into two beeps .
PhD E: Yeah . Into two pieces .
PhD B: Yeah , and I {disfmarker} I dunno if that 's an , uh , artifact of playback {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah . Yep .
PhD B: bu uh , I don't think it 's probably in the original file . Um , but , uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: I recognize that , too . Yeah .
Grad F: Ha . That 's interesting . I didn't hear that .
PhD B: Yeah . But with this new format , um , that hopefully they 're not hearing that , and if they are , it shouldn't throw them .
PhD E: Yep .
PhD B: So .
Grad F: Well , maybe we better listen to it again , make sure , but , I mean , certainly the software shouldn't do that ,
PhD B: Yeah . That 's what I thought .
Grad F: so .
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: I it 's probably just , you know , mmm , somehow the audio {pause} device gets hung for a second ,
PhD E: Yeah . Some latency or something .
Grad F: Hiccups .
PhD E: Yeah ?
Postdoc A: As long as they have one number , and they know that there 's only one beep maximum {vocalsound} that goes with that number .
PhD B: or {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah . Right .
Grad F: Yeah . The only {disfmarker} the only part that might be confusing is when Chuck is reading digits .
PhD B: Right .
PhD E: Yep .
Postdoc A: Well , you know , actually , are we having them {disfmarker}
PhD B: So {vocalsound} th
Grad F: " Seven four eight beep seven beep {vocalsound} eight three two " .
Postdoc A: Yeah , but are we having them do digits ?
Grad F: Yes . Because , uh , we don't {disfmarker} we didn't {disfmarker} In order to cut them out we 'd have to listen to it .
PhD B: We {disfmarker} we didn't cut those out .
PhD E: Yeah . They are not transcribed yet . So . Yeah .
Postdoc A: OK .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad F: And we wanted to avoid doing that ,
Postdoc A: OK .
Grad F: so we {disfmarker} they are transcribing the digits .
Postdoc A: OK .
PhD B: We can {disfmarker} we can ignore it when we get it back ,
Grad F: Although we could tell them {disfmarker} {comment} {vocalsound} we could tell them , if you hear someone reading a digits string just say " bracket digit bracket "
PhD B: huh .
Grad F: and don't bother actually computing the di writing down the digits .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc A: That 'd be great . That 'd be what I 'm having the transcribers here do , cuz it can be extracted later .
Grad F: Yep . And then I wanted to talk about {disfmarker} but as I said I {disfmarker} we may not have time {disfmarker} what we should do about digits . We have a whole pile of digits that haven't been transcribed .
Professor D: Le - let 's talk about it , because that 's {disfmarker} that 's something that I {disfmarker} I know Andreas is less interested in than Liz is ,
Grad F: OK .
Professor D: so , you know . It 's good {disfmarker}
Grad F: Do we have anything else to say about transcription ? About IBM stuff ?
PhD B: Uh , Brian {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {vocalsound} sent bresset {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} sent Brian a message about {pause} {vocalsound} the meeting and I haven't heard back yet . So . I g hope he got it and hopefully he 's {disfmarker}
Grad F: OK .
Postdoc A: Hmm .
PhD B: maybe he 's gone , I dunno . He didn't even reply to my message . So . I should probably ping him just to make sure that he got it .
Grad F: Alright . So , we have a whole bunch of digits , if we wanna move on to digits .
Professor D: Actually , maybe I {disfmarker} One {disfmarker} one relate more related thing in transcription . So that 's the IBM stuff . We 've got that sorted out . Um , how 're we doing on the {disfmarker} on the rest of it ?
Postdoc A: We 're doing well . I {disfmarker} I hire {disfmarker} I 've hired two extra people already , expect to hire two more .
Grad F: Hmm .
Postdoc A: And , um , {vocalsound} I 've prepared , um , uh , a set of five which I 'm {disfmarker} which I 'm calling set two , which are now being edited by my head transcriber , {vocalsound} in terms of spelling errors and all that . She 's also checking through and mar and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and monitoring , um , the transcription of another transcriber . You know , I mean , she 's going through and doing these kinds of checks .
Professor D: Uh - huh .
Postdoc A: And , I 've moved on now to what I 'm calling set three . I sort of thought if I do it in sets {disfmarker} groups of five , then I can have , like , sort of a {disfmarker} a parallel processing through {disfmarker} through the {disfmarker} the current .
Professor D: Uh - huh .
Postdoc A: And {disfmarker} and you indicated to me that we have a g a goal now , {vocalsound} for the {disfmarker} for the , um , {nonvocalsound} {vocalsound} the , uh , DARPA demo , of twenty hours . So , I 'm gonna go up to twenty hours , be sure that everything gets processed , and released , and {disfmarker} {pause} {comment} and that 's {disfmarker} that 's what my goal is . Package of twenty hours right now , {vocalsound} and then once that 's done , move on to the next .
Professor D: Yeah , uh , so twenty hours . But I guess the other thing is that , um , that {disfmarker} that 's kinda twenty hours ASAP because the longer before the demo we actually have the twenty hours , the more time it 'll be for people to actually do cool things with it .
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm . Good . I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm hiring people who , {vocalsound} uh , really are {disfmarker}
Professor D: So . OK .
Postdoc A: They would like to do it full - time , several of these people . And {disfmarker} and I don't think it 's {vocalsound} possible , really , to do this full - time , but , that {disfmarker} what it shows is motivation to do as many hours as possible .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: It 'll keep your accuracy up . Yep .
Professor D: Yeah .
Postdoc A: And they 're really excellent .
Professor D: Yeah . Well , that 's good .
Postdoc A: Yeah . Got a good core group now .
Professor D: Yeah , I mean , I guess the {disfmarker} So the difference if {disfmarker} if , um , if the IBM stuff works out , the difference in the job would be that they p primarily would be checking through things that were already done by someone else ?
Postdoc A: Again . Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Is that most of what it {disfmarker} ?
Grad F: And correcting .
Professor D: I mean {disfmarker} Correcting .
Grad F: Correcting . We 'll {disfmarker} we 'll expect that they 'll have to move some time bins and do some corrections .
Postdoc A: And I {disfmarker} you know , I 've also d uh , discovered {disfmarker} So with the new transcriber I 'm {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} Uh , lemme say that my , uh {disfmarker} So , um {disfmarker} At present , um , the people have been doing these transcriptions a channel at a time . And , that sort of , um , {vocalsound} is useful , and t you know , and then once in a while they 'll have to refer to the other channels to clear something up . OK . Well , {vocalsound} I realize that , um , w i we we 're using the pre - segmented version , and , um , the pre - segmented version is extremely useful , and wouldn't it be , useful also to have the visual representation of those segments ? And so I 've {disfmarker} {pause} uh , {pause} I , uh , uh , I 've {comment} trained the new one {disfmarker} uh , the new the newest one , {vocalsound} to , um , {vocalsound} use the visual from the channel that is gonna be transcribed at any given time . And that 's just amazingly helpful . Because what happens then , is you scan across the signal and once in a while you 'll find a blip that didn't show up in the pre - segmentation .
Grad F: Oh , right .
Postdoc A: And that 'll be something like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I it 's ver {disfmarker} it 's interesting .
Grad F: I see what you mean . A backchannel , or {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: Once in a while it 's a backchannel .
PhD E: Yep .
Postdoc A: Sometimes it seems to be , um , similar to the ones that are being picked up .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc A: And they 're rare events , but you can really go through a meeting very quickly . You just {disfmarker} you just , you know , yo you s you scroll from screen to screen , looking for blips . And , I think that we 're gonna end up with , uh {pause} better coverage of the backchannels ,
Professor D: Yeah .
Postdoc A: but at the same time we 're benefitting tremendously from the pre - segmentation because {vocalsound} there are huge places where there is just absolutely no activity at all . And , uh , the audio quality is so good {disfmarker}
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So they can {disfmarker} they can , um , scroll through that pretty quick ?
Postdoc A: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
PhD B: That 's great .
Postdoc A: Yeah . So I think that that 's gonna , also {pause} eh , {comment} you know , speed the efficiency of this part of the process .
Professor D: Hmm . OK . Uh , yeah . So , uh {disfmarker} Yeah . So let 's talk about the digits , since they 're not here yet .
Grad F: Uh , so , we have a whole bunch of digits that we 've read and we have the forms and so on , um , but only a small number of that ha well , not a small number {disfmarker} only a subset of that has been transcribed . And so we need to decide what we wanna do . And , uh , Liz and Andreas {disfmarker} actually they 're not here , but , they did say at one point that they thought they could do a pretty good job of just doing a forced alignment . And , again , I don't think we 'll be able to do with that alone , because , um , sometimes people correct themselves and things like that . But {disfmarker} so , I was just wondering what people thought about how automated can we make the process of finding where the people read the digits , doing a forced alignment , and doing the timing .
Professor D: Well , forced alignment would be one thing . What about just actually doing recognition ?
Grad F: Well , we {disfmarker} we know what they read , because we have the forms .
Professor D: No , they make mistakes .
Grad F: Right . But , the point is that we wanna get a set of clean digits .
PhD B: You 're talking about as a pre - processing step .
Professor D: Right .
PhD B: Right , Morgan ?
Professor D: Um {disfmarker}
PhD B: Is that what you 're {disfmarker} ?
Professor D: Yeah , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm not quite sure what I 'm talking about . I mean {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean , uh , we 're talking about digits now . And {disfmarker} and so , um , there 's a bunch of stuff that hasn't been marked yet . Uh . And , um , {vocalsound} there 's the issue that {disfmarker} that they {disfmarker} we know what {disfmarker} what was said , but do we ?
Grad F: I mean , so one option i
Professor D: Because people make mistakes and stuff . I was just asking , just out of curiosity , if {disfmarker} if with , uh {disfmarker} uh , the SRI recognizer getting one percent word error , uh , would we {disfmarker} would we do {pause} better {disfmarker} ? So , if you do a forced alignment but the force but the {disfmarker} but the transcription you have is wrong because they actually made mistakes , uh , or {vocalsound} false starts , it 's {disfmarker} it 's much less c {vocalsound} it 's {pause} much less common than one percent ?
Grad F: But that 's pretty uncommon . Um , if we could really get one percent on {disfmarker}
Professor D: We should be able to .
Grad F: Well , I guess {disfmarker} yeah , I guess if we segmented it , we could get one percent on digits .
Professor D: Right ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah . So that 's just my question . I 'm not saying it should be one way or the other , but it 's {disfmarker} If {disfmarker}
Grad F: But , Well , there {disfmarker} there 're a couple different of doing it . We could use the tools I 've already developed and transcribe it . Hire some people , or use the transcribers to do it . We could let IBM transcribe it . You know , they 're doing it anyway , and unless we tell them different , they 're gonna transcribe it . Um , or we could try some automated methods .
Professor D: Well {disfmarker}
Grad F: And my {disfmarker} my tendency right now is , well , if IBM comes back with this meeting and the transcript is good , just let them do it .
Professor D: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} Y you raised a point , kind of , uh , euphemistically {disfmarker} but , I mean , m maybe it is a serious problem . Ho - what will they do when they go {disfmarker} hear " beep {pause} seven {pause} beep {pause} seven three five two " {disfmarker} I mean , {vocalsound} you think they 'll {disfmarker} we 'll get {disfmarker} ?
Grad F: It 's pretty distinct .
Professor D: Yeah ?
Grad F: The beeps are {pause} pre - recorded .
PhD B: It 'll {comment} only be a problem for m for mine .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc A: Well it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} well , it 'd be preceded by " I 'm reading transcript so - and - so " ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad F: Yes .
Postdoc A: So , I think if they 're processing it at {disfmarker}
Grad F: I mean , it 'll be {disfmarker} it will be in the midst of a digit string .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad F: So {disfmarker} I mean it {disfmarker} sure , there {disfmarker} there might be a place where it 's " beep seven {pause} beep eight {pause} beep {pause} eight {pause} beep " . But , you know , they {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're gonna macros for inserting the beep marks . And so , I {disfmarker} I don't think it 'll be a problem . We 'll have to see , but I don't think it 's gonna be a problem .
Professor D: OK . Well , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I dunno , I {disfmarker} I think that that 's {disfmarker} if they are in fact going to transcribe these things , uh , certainly any process that we 'd have to correct them , or whatever is {disfmarker} needs to be much less elaborate for digits than for other stuff .
Grad F: Right .
Professor D: So , why not ? Sure . That was it ?
Grad F: That was it . Just , what do we do with digits ?
Professor D: OK .
Grad F: We have so many of them , {vocalsound} and it 'd be nice to {pause} actually do something with them .
Professor D: Well , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we wanna have them . Yeah , I {disfmarker}
PhD I: You mean there 're more than ten ?
Grad F: Anything else ? Your mike is a little low there .
Professor D: I in Berkeley , yeah . So , {vocalsound} uh {pause} You {disfmarker} you have to go a little early , right ? At twenty {disfmarker}
PhD I: Well , I can stay till about , uh , three forty .
Professor D: Alright . So le let 's make sure we do the ones that {disfmarker} that , uh , saved you .
PhD I: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor D: So there was some {disfmarker} Uh {pause} {vocalsound} In {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} Adam 's agenda list , he had something from you about segmentation this last recognition ?
PhD I: Well , yeah . So this is just partly to inform everybody , um , and {disfmarker} and of course to get , um , input .
Grad F: Oops .
PhD I: Um , so , {nonvocalsound} uh , we had a discussion {disfmarker} Don and Liz and I had discussion last week about how to proceed with , uh , you know , with Don 's work ,
PhD E: Ch
PhD I: and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} and , uh , one of the obvious things that occur to us was that we 're {disfmarker} since we now have Thilo 's segmenter and it works , you know , amazingly well , {vocalsound} um , we should actually basically re - evaluate the recognition , um , results using {disfmarker} you know , without cheating on the segmentations .
PhD E: So {disfmarker}
PhD I: And , that should be fairly {disfmarker}
PhD E: And how do we find the transcripts for those so that {disfmarker} ? Yeah . The references for {disfmarker} for {pause} those segments ?
PhD I: Oh , OK . So , there 's actually {disfmarker}
PhD E: It 's not that {disfmarker}
PhD I: Why do you ask ?
Grad F: I could {disfmarker}
PhD I: No , actually , um , NIST has , um m a fairly sophisticated scoring program {vocalsound} that you can give a , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a time ,
Grad F: Hand ones .
PhD G: Well {disfmarker}
PhD E: OK .
PhD I: uh {disfmarker} You know , you basically just give two {pause} time - marked sequences of words , and it computes the um {disfmarker} the , {comment} uh {disfmarker} {comment} you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} th
PhD B: It does all the work for you .
PhD I: it does all the work for you .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD E: OK .
PhD I: So , it {disfmarker} we just {disfmarker} and we use that actually in Hub - five to do the scoring . Um . So what we 've been using so far was sort of a {pause} simplified version of the scoring . And we can {disfmarker} we can handle the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the type of problem we have here .
PhD E: So , basically you give some time constraints for {disfmarker} for the references and for {disfmarker} for the hypothesis ,
PhD I: So , we ha Yeah . Right .
PhD E: and {disfmarker} Yeah , OK .
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD I: Right .
PhD G: Maybe the {pause} start of your speech and the end of it ,
PhD I: So do
PhD E: OK .
PhD G: or stuff like that .
PhD I: Right . It does time - constrained word - alignment .
PhD E: OK .
PhD I: So . So that should be possible . I mean that shouldn't be a problem . Uh , so that was the one thing , and the other was that , um {disfmarker} What was the other problem ? Oh ! That Thilo wanted to use {pause} the recognizer alignments to train up his , um , speech detector .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD I: Um , so that we could use , uh {disfmarker} you know there wouldn't be so much hand {vocalsound} labelling needed to , uh {disfmarker} to generate training data for {disfmarker} for the speech detector .
PhD E: Yeah . I 'm just in progress of {disfmarker} of doing that . So .
PhD I: And I think you 're in the process of doing that .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD I: So , you can {disfmarker} {comment} you can {disfmarker}
PhD B: It 'll give you a lot more data , too . Won't it ?
PhD E: Yeah . So , it 's basically {disfmarker} s I think , eight meetings or something which {disfmarker} which I 'm using , and , {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} before it was twenty minutes of one meeting .
PhD I: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: So {disfmarker} should {comment} be a little bit better .
PhD I: Right .
PhD B: Great .
PhD I: That won't be perfect {disfmarker} the alignments aren't perfect ,
PhD E: Yeah . But {disfmarker}
PhD I: but , um , it 's probably still better to have all this extra data , than {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah . Yep .
PhD I: Yeah .
PhD E: We 'll see that .
PhD I: Yeah .
Professor D: OK .
PhD G: Actually , I had a question about that . If you find that you can {vocalsound} lower the false alarms that you get where there 's no speech , that would be useful {pause} for us to know . So , um {disfmarker}
PhD E: There were the false alarms .
PhD G: Yeah . So , {vocalsound} r right now you get f fal you know , false {disfmarker} false , uh , speech regions when it 's just like , um , {vocalsound} breath or something like that ,
PhD E: OK . Yeah . Yep .
PhD G: and I 'd be interested to know the {disfmarker} wha if you retrain um ,
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD G: do those actually go down or not ? Because {pause} of {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah . I 'll {disfmarker} can make {disfmarker} an can , like , make a c comparison of {disfmarker} of the old system to the {disfmarker} to the new one , and {pause} then {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yeah , just to see if by doing nothing in the modeling of {disfmarker} just having that training data wh what happens .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah . Yep .
Professor D: Um another one that we had on Adam 's agenda {pause} that definitely involved you was s something about SmartKom ?
Grad F: Right . So , Rob Porzel {disfmarker} eh , Porzel ? and the , uh {disfmarker} Porzel {disfmarker} and the , uh , SmartKom group are collecting some dialogues .
PhD I: Porzel . Porzel .
Grad F: Basically they have one person sitting in here , looking at a picture , and a wizard sitting in another room somewhere . And , uh , they 're doing a travel task . And , uh , it involves starting {disfmarker} I believe starting with a {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} it 's always the wizard , but it starts where the wizard is pretending to be a computer and it goes through a , uh , {vocalsound} speech generation system .
PhD E: Yeah . Actually , it 's changed to a synthesis for {disfmarker} for the first part now .
Grad F: Synthesis system .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad F: Um , and then , it goes to a real wizard and they 're evaluating that . And they wanted to use this equipment , and so the w question came up , is {disfmarker} well , here 's some more data . Should this be part of the corpus or not ? And my attitude was yes , because there might be people who are using this corpus for {pause} acoustics , as opposed to just for language . Um , or also for dialogue of various sorts . Um , so it 's not a meeting . Right ? Because it 's two people and they 're not face to face .
Professor D: Wait a minute . So , I just wanted to understand it , cuz I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} uh , hadn't quite followed this process .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: Um . So , it 's wizard in the sen usual sense that the person who is asking the questions doesn't know that it 's , uh , a machi not a machine ?
PhD I: Right .
Grad F: At the beginning .
PhD I: Actually {disfmarker} actually , w w the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} We do this {disfmarker} I dunno who came up with it , but I think it 's a really clever idea . We simulate a computer breakdown halfway through the session , and so then after that , the person 's told that they 're now talking to a , uh {disfmarker} to a human .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD E: It 's a human operator .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad F: But of course they don't know that it 's the same person both times .
PhD I: So , we {disfmarker} we collect {disfmarker} we collect both human - computer and human - human data , essentially , in the same session .
Professor D: You might wanna try collecting it the other way around sometime , saying that th the computer isn't up yet
Postdoc A: Hmm .
Professor D: and then {disfmarker} so then you can separate it out whether it 's the beginning or end kind of effects .
PhD I: That 's an idea .
Professor D: But , yeah .
Grad F: Yep .
PhD I: Yeah .
Postdoc A: That 's a good idea .
Grad F: " I have to go now . You can talk to the computer . "
PhD B: It 's a lot more believable , too ,
Grad F: " No ! "
PhD B: if you tell them that they 're {disfmarker} the computer part is running on a Windows machine . And the whole breakdown thing kinda makes sense .
PhD I: O Just {disfmarker} just reboot it .
Grad F: Abort {disfmarker} abort , retry , fail ?
PhD G: So did they actually save the far - field {pause} data ?
PhD E: Yes .
Grad F: Well , this was {disfmarker} this was the question .
PhD G: Cuz at first they weren't {disfmarker} they weren't sa
PhD I: Yeah .
Grad F: So {disfmarker} so they were saying they were not going to ,
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD G: OK .
Grad F: and I said , " well that 's silly , if {disfmarker} if we 're gonna try to do it for a corpus , there might be people who are interested in acoustics . "
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD I: Wow .
PhD E: No .
PhD G: Or {disfmarker}
PhD E: projector {comment} We were not saying we are not {pause} doing it .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor D: S
PhD E: We wer we just wanted to do {disfmarker}
PhD I: No , the {disfmarker} the question is do we save one or two far - field channels or all of them ?
PhD G: Right .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad F: I {disfmarker} I see no reason not to do all of them .
Professor D: Um {disfmarker}
Grad F: That {disfmarker} that if we have someone who is doing acoustic studies , uh , it 's nice to have the same for every recording .
PhD G: Nnn . Yeah .
PhD I: Hmm .
Professor D: So , what is the purpose of this recording ?
PhD I: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: This is to get acoustic and language model training data for SmartKom. OK .
PhD I: It 's to be traini to b training data and development data for the SmartKom {pause} system .
PhD E: The English system ? Yeah .
PhD I: Yeah . Right . Right .
PhD B: Where does this {disfmarker} ?
Professor D:
PhD G: Maybe we can have him vary the microphones , too ,
Professor D: Well ,
PhD E: B
PhD G: or they 're different s speakers .
Grad F: Right . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so for their usage , they don't need anything .
Professor D: so why not {disfmarker} ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad F: Right ?
PhD E: But {disfmarker} but I 'm not sure about the legal aspect of {disfmarker} of that . Is {disfmarker} is there some contract with SmartKom or something about the data ?
PhD I: Yeah .
PhD E: What they {disfmarker} or , is {disfmarker} is that our data which we are collecting here ,
Professor D: We 've never signed anything that said that we couldn't use anything that we did .
PhD E: or {disfmarker} ? OK . OK .
PhD I: We weren't supposed to collect any data .
PhD E: So . OK .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD E: So . Yeah , th th that was the question .
PhD I: This was all {disfmarker}
PhD E: If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} ? Yeah .
PhD I: Yeah .
Professor D: No that 's not a problem .
PhD E: Basically .
Professor D: I {disfmarker} L look , it seems to me that if we 're doing it anyway and we 're doing it for these {disfmarker} these purposes that we have , {vocalsound} and we have these distant mikes , we definitely should re should save it all as long as we 've got disk space ,
PhD I: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: and disk is pretty cheap .
PhD I: OK .
Professor D: So should we save it ?
Grad F: And then {disfmarker}
Professor D: Now th Yeah . So we save it because it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's potentially useful . And now , what do we do with it is {disfmarker} is a s separate question .
Grad F: Right .
Professor D: I mean , anybody who 's training something up could {vocalsound} choose to put it {disfmarker} eh , to u include this or not .
PhD I: Right .
Professor D: I {disfmarker} I would not say it was part of the meetings corpus . It isn't . But it 's some other data we have , and if somebody doing experiment wants to train up including that then they can . Right ?
PhD I: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: So it 's {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} I guess it {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} begs the question of what is the meeting corpus . So if , at UW they start recording two - person hallway conversations is that part of the meeting corpus ?
Professor D: I think it 's {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I th think the idea of two or more people conversing with one another is key .
Grad F: Well , this has two or more people conversing with each other .
Professor D: Nnn , well
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc A: Well this {disfmarker}
Grad F: They 're just not face to face .
PhD G: What if we just give it a {disfmarker} a name like we give these meetings a name ?
Professor D: No , it doesn't . Right ? It has {disfmarker}
Grad F: I mean , that was my intention .
PhD G: And then later on some people will consider it a meeting and some people won't ,
Postdoc A: Well this {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad F: That was my intention . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} s {vocalsound} so part of the reason that I wanted to bring this up is , {vocalsound} do we wanna handle it as a special case or do we wanna fold it in ,
PhD G: and {disfmarker} Just give it a {vocalsound} title .
Postdoc A: Oh .
Professor D: I think it is a s
Grad F: we give everyone who 's involved as their own user ID , give it session I Ds , {vocalsound} let all the tools that handle Meeting Recorder handle it , or do we wanna special case it ? And if we were gonna special case it , who 's gonna do that ?
PhD E: So .
PhD I: Well , it {disfmarker} it makes sense to handle it with the same infrastructure , since we don't want to duplicate things unnecessarily .
PhD E: It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: I think {disfmarker}
PhD I: But as far as distributing it , we shouldn't label it as part of this meeting corpus .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD I: We should let it be its own corp
Postdoc A: Well it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} well , because {disfmarker}
Grad F: I don't see why not . It 's just a different topic .
Postdoc A: I ha I have an extra point , which is the naturalness issue . Because we have , like , meetings that have a reason . That 's one of the reasons that we were talking about this . And {disfmarker} and those {disfmarker} and this sounds like it 's more of an experimental setup .
Professor D: Yeah .
Postdoc A: It 's got a different purpose .
Professor D: It 's scenario - based , it 's {disfmarker} it 's human - computer interface {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's really pretty different .
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Professor D: But I I {disfmarker} I have no problem with somebody folding it in for some experiment they 're gonna do , but I don't think i it {disfmarker} it doesn't match anything that we 've described about meetings .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Whereas everything that we talked about them doing at {disfmarker} at UW and so forth really does . They 're actually talking {disfmarker}
Grad F: OK . So w so what does that mean for how we are gonna organize things ?
Postdoc A: Hmm .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: You can {disfmarker} you can {disfmarker} Again , as {disfmarker} as I think Andreas was saying , {vocalsound} if you wanna use the same tools and the same conventions , there 's no problem with that . It 's just that it 's , you know , different directory , it 's called something different , it 's {disfmarker} you know . It is different . You can't just fold it in as if it 's {disfmarker} I mean , digits are different , too . Right ?
Grad F: Yeah , but those are folded in ,
PhD I: It might also be potentially confusing .
Grad F: and it 's just {disfmarker} you just mark the transcripts differently . So {disfmarker} so one option is you fold it in ,
PhD I: Right .
Grad F: and just simply in the file you mark somewhere that this is this type of interaction , rather than another type of interaction .
PhD I: Yeah , I th
Professor D: Well , I don I wouldn't call reading digits " meetings " . Right ? I mean , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we were doing {disfmarker}
Grad F: Well , but {disfmarker} but , {vocalsound} I put it under the same directory tree .
Professor D: Well {disfmarker}
Grad F: You know , it 's in " user doctor speech data MR " .
PhD G: Can we just have a directory called , like , " other stuff " ?
Grad F: Other .
PhD G: And {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} or , I dunno .
Professor D: I mean , I don't care what directory tree you have it under .
PhD G: And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and just , um , store it there .
Professor D: Right ? I mean that 's just a {disfmarker}
Grad F: OK . My preference is to have a single procedure so that I don't have to think too much about things .
PhD I: Yes .
PhD G: I mean {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad F: And , just have a marking .
Professor D: O - You {disfmarker} you can use whatever procedure you want that 's p convenient for you .
Grad F: If we do it any other way that means that we need a separate procedure , and someone has to do that .
Professor D: All I 'm saying is that there 's no way that we 're gonna tell people that reading digits is meetings . And similarly we 're not gonna tell them that someone talking to a computer to get travel information is meetings .
Grad F: Right .
Professor D: Those aren't meetings . But if it makes it easier for you to pu fold them in the same procedures and have them under the same directory tree , knock yourself out .
PhD B: There 's a couple other questions that I have too ,
Professor D: You know ?
PhD B: and {disfmarker} and {pause} one of them is , what about , uh , consent issues ? And the other one is , what about transcription ? Are {disfmarker} ?
PhD E: Transcription is done in Munich .
PhD B: OK . So we don't have to worry about transcribing it ?
Professor D: Alright .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad F: So , w we will hafta worry about format .
PhD I: That 's a {disfmarker} that 's another argument to keep it separate , because it 's gonna follow the SmartKom transcription conventions and not the ICSI meeting transcription conventions .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad F: Oh , OK .
Professor D: Ah . Good point .
Grad F: OK . Well , I didn't realize that . That 's {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker}
Professor D: Good point . But I 'm sure no one would have a problem with our folding it in for some acoustic modeling or {disfmarker} or some things . Um . Do we h do we have , uh , um , American - born folk , uh , reading German {disfmarker} German , uh , pla uh , place names and so forth ? Is that {disfmarker} ?
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD I: Exactly .
Professor D: Yeah , great .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad F: Yep .
PhD I: Yeah .
Grad F: They {disfmarker} they even have a reading list .
PhD B: I bet that sounds good , huh ?
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad F: It 's pretty funny .
PhD I: Yeah .
PhD E: You can do that if you want .
PhD B: OK .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: I dunno if you want that .
Professor D: Right .
PhD I: Yeah .
Postdoc A: Hmm .
Professor D: Heidelberg
Grad F: So {disfmarker}
PhD I: Exactly
Grad F: Disk might eventually be an issue so we might {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we might need to , uh , {vocalsound} get some more disk pretty soon .
PhD I: Do you wanna be a subject ?
Professor D: Yeah , I be pretty good .
PhD I: We {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad F: We 're about {disfmarker} we 're about half {disfmarker} halfway through our disk right now .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD I: That was one of our concerns .
PhD B: Are we only half ? I thought we were more than that .
Grad F: We 're probably a little more than that because we 're using up some space that we shouldn't be on . So , once everything gets converted over to the disks we 're supposed to be using we 'll be probably , uh , seventy - five percent .
PhD B: Well , when I was looking for space for Thilo , I found one disk that had , uh , I think it was nine gigs and another one had seventeen .
Grad F: Yep .
PhD B: And everything else was sorta committed . Uh {disfmarker}
Grad F: Were those backed - up or non - backed - up ?
PhD B: Those were non - backed - up .
PhD E: Non - back - up .
Grad F: Right . So that 's different .
PhD B: S oh , you 're talking about backed - up .
Grad F: I 'm much more concerned about the backed - up . The non - backed - up ,
PhD B: I haven't looked to see how much of that we have .
Grad F: yeah , i is cheap . I mean , if we need to we can buy a disk , hang it off a s uh , workstation . If it 's not backed - up the sysadmins don't care too much .
Professor D: Yeah . So , I mean , pretty much anytime we need a disk , we can get it at the rate that we 're {disfmarker}
PhD I: You can {disfmarker} I shouldn't be saying this , but , you can just {disfmarker} you know , since the back - ups are every night , you can recycle the backed - up diskspace .
Grad F: Yeah . But that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} {pause} that 's risky .
Professor D: Yeah . You really shouldn't be saying {disfmarker}
Grad F: Mmm . Mmm .
PhD I: I didn't say that .
Grad F: Yeah , that 's right .
PhD I: I didn't say that .
Grad F: Beep that out .
Professor D: Da - we had allowed Dave to listen to these {disfmarker} {vocalsound} these , {vocalsound} uh , recordings .
PhD I: Right .
Professor D: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , I me and there 's been this conversation going on about getting another file server , and {disfmarker} and {vocalsound} we can do that .
PhD I: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: We 'll take the opportunity and get another big raft of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of disk , I guess .
Grad F: Yeah . It 's really the back - up issue rather than the file server issue .
PhD I: Well , I think {disfmarker} {comment} I think there 's an argument for having {disfmarker} you know , you could use our old file server for {disfmarker} for disks that have data that {pause} is very rarely accessed , and then have a fast new file server for data that is , um , heavily accessed .
Grad F: Yeah . My understanding is , the issue isn't really the file server .
PhD I: Yeah .
Grad F: We could always put more disks on .
PhD I: Yeah . It 's the back it 's the back - up capaci
Grad F: It 's the back - up system .
PhD I: Yeah .
Grad F: So {disfmarker} which is near saturation , apparently . So .
PhD B: I think {disfmarker} I think the file server could become an issue as we get a whole bunch more new compute machines .
Professor D: Soon .
PhD B: And we 've got , you know , fifty machines trying to access data off of Abbott at once .
Grad F: Well , we 're alright for now because the network 's so slow .
PhD I: I mean , I think {disfmarker} I think we 've raised this before and someone said this is not a reliable way to do it , but the {disfmarker} What about putting the stuff on , like , C - CD - ROM or DVD or something ?
Grad F: Yeah . That was me . I was the one who said it was not reliable . The - they {disfmarker} they wear out .
PhD I: OK . Oh , OK .
Grad F: Yeah . The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} th
PhD I: But they wear out just from sitting on the shelf ?
Grad F: Yep . Absolutely .
PhD I: Or from being {pause} read and read ?
Grad F: No . Read and write don't hurt them too much unless you scratch them .
PhD I: Oh , OK .
Grad F: But the r the write once , and the read - writes , don't last . So you don't wa you don't wanna put ir un reproduceable data {pause} on them .
PhD I: Uh - huh .
PhD B: Wear out after what amount of time ?
Grad F: Year or two .
Postdoc A: Would it be {disfmarker} ?
Professor D: Year or two ?
Grad F: Yep .
Professor D: Wow .
Postdoc A: Hmm .
PhD I: But if that {disfmarker} then you would think you 'd {pause} hear much more clamoring about data loss
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD I: and {disfmarker}
Professor D: I mean , yeah , all the L
Grad F: I {disfmarker} I don't know many people who do it on CD . I mean , they 're {disfmarker} the most {disfmarker} fo
Professor D: LDC - all the LDC distributions are on CD - ROM .
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad F: They 're on CD , but they 're not {disfmarker} tha that 's not the only source .
PhD G: Like {disfmarker}
Grad F: They have them on disk . And they burn new ones every once in a while . But if you go {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you go k
PhD I: But , you know , we have {disfmarker}
PhD G: But we have like thirty {pause} you know , from {pause} ten years ago ?
Professor D: We have all sorts of CD - ROMs from a long time ago .
PhD G: No .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD G: Yeah !
Grad F: Well , th th OK .
PhD G: Ten years ago .
PhD I: Right .
PhD G: Ninety - one , and they 're still all fine .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad H: Were they burned or were they pressed ?
PhD G: Uh , both . I 've burned them and they 're still OK .
Grad H: Yeah .
Grad F: The {disfmarker} the pressed ones last for
PhD G: I mean , usually they 're {disfmarker}
Grad F: well , not forever , they 've been finding even those degrade .
Professor D: Oh , I see .
Grad F: But , uh , the burned ones {disfmarker} I mean , when I say two or three years what I 'm saying is that I have had disks which are gone in a year .
PhD G: That 's what I {disfmarker}
Grad F: On the average , it 'll probably be three or four years . But , uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you don't want to per p have your only copy on a media that fails .
PhD I: Mmm .
Grad F: And they do . Um , if you have them professionally pressed , y you know , they 're good for decades .
PhD I: So how about {disfmarker} ? So {disfmarker} so how about putting them on that plus , like on a {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on DAT or some other medium that isn't risky ?
Grad F: I think th um , we can already put them on tape . And the tape is hi is very reliable .
PhD I: OK . Mm - hmm .
Grad F: So the {disfmarker} the only issue is then {pause} if we need access to them . So that 's fine f if we don't need access to them .
PhD I: Right . Well , if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} if they last {disfmarker} Say , they actually last , like , five years , huh , in {disfmarker} in the typical case , and {disfmarker} and occasionally you might need to recreate one , and then you get your tape out , but otherwise you don't . Can't you just {disfmarker} you just put them on {disfmarker} ?
Grad H: So you just archive it on the tape , and then put it on CD as well ?
PhD I: Yeah . Right .
Grad F: Oh . So you 're just saying put them on C Ds for normal access .
Grad H: Yeah .
PhD I: Right .
PhD B: What you {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yeah . I mean , you can do that but that 's pretty annoying , because the C Ds are so slow .
PhD G: See {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad H: Yeah .
PhD I: Mmm .
PhD B: What 'd be nice is a system that re - burned the C Ds every {vocalsound} year .
PhD G: H everytime it was a " gonna " {disfmarker} " gonna die " .
Professor D: Well {disfmarker}
Grad F: Well , I mean , the C Ds are {disfmarker} are an op
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD I: It 's like {disfmarker} like dynamic ra DRAM .
PhD E: Just before .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD G: Just before they be before it goes bad , it burns them in .
Grad F: The {disfmarker} the CD is an alternative to tape .
Grad H: Yeah .
Grad F: ICSI already has a perfectly good tape system and it 's more reliable .
Professor D: You know {disfmarker} I would think {disfmarker}
Grad F: So for archiving , we 'll just use tape .
PhD I: One {disfmarker} one thing I don't understand is , if you have the data {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you if the meeting data is put on disk exactly once , then it 's backed - up once and the back - up system should never have to bother with it , uh , more than once .
Grad F: Well , regardless {disfmarker} Well , first of all there was , um , a problem with the archive in that I was every once in a while doing a chmod on all the directories an or recursive chmod and chown , because {vocalsound} they weren't getting set correctly every once in a while ,
PhD I: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: and I was just , {vocalsound} doing a minus R star , {vocalsound} not realizing that that caused {pause} it to be re - backed - up .
PhD I: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Ah .
Grad F: But normally you 're correct . But even without that , the back - up system is becoming saturated .
PhD I: But {disfmarker} but this back - up system is smart enough to figure out that something hasn't changed and doesn't need to be {pause} backed - up again .
Professor D: The b I think th the {disfmarker} at least the once tha that you put it on , it would {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it would {comment} {vocalsound} kill that .
Grad F: Sure , but we still have enough changed that the nightly back - ups are starting to take too long .
PhD I: OK . So {disfmarker} so then , if {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so then , let 's {disfmarker}
Professor D: So .
Grad F: It has nothing to do with the meeting . It 's just the general ICSI back - up system is becoming saturated .
PhD I: Right . OK . Right . So , what if we buy , uh {disfmarker} uh , what {disfmarker} what do they call these , um {pause} high density {disfmarker} ?
Grad F: Well , why don't you have this {disfmarker} have a {disfmarker} this conversation with Dave Johnson tha rather than with me ?
PhD I: No , no . Because this is {pause} maybe something that we can do without involving Dave , and {disfmarker} and , putting more burden on him . How about we buy , uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh , one of these high density tape drives ? And we put the data actually on non - backed - up disks . And we do our own back - up once and for all {disfmarker} all , and then {disfmarker} and we don't have to bother this @ @ up ?
Grad F: Actually , you know , we could do that just with the tape {disfmarker} with the current tape .
PhD I: I dunno what the these tapes {disfmarker} uh , at some point these {disfmarker} I dunno . What kind of tape drive is it ?
Grad F: I dunno but it 's an automatic robot so it 's very convenient .
PhD I: Is it {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} ?
Professor D: Wh The o the one that we have ?
Grad F: You just run a program to restore them .
PhD I: Right .
Professor D: The {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD I: But it might interfere with their back - up schedule ,
PhD G: But {disfmarker}
Professor D: No , we have s we {disfmarker} Don't we have our own ?
PhD I: eh .
Professor D: Something wi th that doesn't {disfmarker} that isn't used by the back - up gang ? Don't we have something downstairs ?
Postdoc A: Well they {disfmarker}
PhD B: What kinda tape drive ?
Professor D: Just in {disfmarker} ? Yeah .
Grad F: Well {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} no , but Andreas 's point is a good one . And we don't have to do anything ourselves to do that . They 're already right now on tape .
PhD I: Right .
Grad F: Right . So your {disfmarker} your point is , and I think it 's a good one , that we could just get more disk and put it there .
PhD I: Mmm . On an XH {disfmarker} uh , X {disfmarker} X whatever partition .
Grad F: Yeah . That 's not a bad idea .
PhD I: Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah , that 's basically what I was gonna say , is that a disk is {disfmarker} is so cheap it 's es essentially , you know , close to free . And the only thing that costs is the back - up {pause} issue , {vocalsound} eh , to first order .
Grad F: So once it 's on tape {disfmarker}
PhD I: Right . Right .
Professor D: And we can take care of that by putting it on non - back {pause} up drives and just backing it up once onto this tape .
PhD I: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: I think that 's a good idea .
PhD I: Right .
Professor D: Oh . Yeah .
PhD I: OK .
Professor D: Good . It 's good .
PhD G: So , who 's gonna do these back - ups ? The people that collect it ?
Grad F: Uh Well , I 'll talk to Dave , and {disfmarker} and see what th how {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} what the best way of doing that is .
PhD B: It 's probably gonna n
Grad F: There 's a little utility that will manually burn a tape for you , and that 's probably the right way to do it .
PhD B: Yeah , and we should probably make that part of the procedure for recording the meetings .
PhD G: Well , s
Grad F: Yep .
PhD G: Yeah . That 's what I 'm wondering , if {disfmarker}
Grad F: Well {pause} we 're g we 're gonna automate that .
PhD G: OK .
Grad F: My intention is to {pause} do a script that 'll do everything .
PhD G: I mean , you don't have to physically put a tape in the drive ?
Grad F: No . It 's all tape robot ,
PhD G: Or s ? s ? {comment} Oh , OK .
Grad F: so you just sit down at your computer and you type a command .
PhD G: So it 's just {disfmarker} Oh , OK .
PhD I: Yeah , but then you 're effectively using the resources of the back - up system . Or is that a different tape robot ?
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD G: But not at the same time .
Grad F: But y but you would be anyway .
PhD B: No , no , no .
Grad F: Right ?
PhD B: He 's saying get a whole different drive .
Grad F: Because {disfmarker}
PhD I: No , no . See {disfmarker}
Grad F: But there 's no reason to do that .
PhD I: Yeah , just give a dedi
Grad F: It {disfmarker} we already have it there and it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}
PhD I: Well , I 'm saying is @ @ i if you go to Dave , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and ask him " can I use your tape robot ? " , he will say , " well {pause} that 's gonna screw up our back - up operation . "
Grad F: No , we won't . He 'll say " if {disfmarker} if that means {pause} that it 's not gonna be backed - up standardly , great . "
Professor D: He - I {disfmarker} Dave has {disfmarker} has promoted this in the past . So I don't think he 's actually against it .
Grad F: Yeah . It 's {disfmarker} it 's definitely no problem .
PhD I: Oh , OK . Alright .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD I: Alright .
Professor D: OK .
PhD I: Good .
PhD G: What about if the times overlap with the normal back - up time ?
Grad F: Um , it 's {disfmarker} it 's just {disfmarker} it 's just a utility which queues up . It just queues it up and {disfmarker} and when it 's available , it will copy it .
PhD G: OK .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad F: And then you can tell it to then remove it from the disk or you can , you know , do it a a few days later or whatever you wanna do , after you confirm that it 's really backed - up .
PhD G: OK .
Grad F: NW {disfmarker} ?
Postdoc A: You saying NW archive ?
Grad F: NW archive .
Postdoc A: Yep {comment} {vocalsound} And if you did that during the day it would never make it to the nightly back - ups .
Grad F: That 's what it is .
Professor D: OK .
Grad F: Right .
Postdoc A: And then there wouldn't be this extra load .
PhD I: Well , it {disfmarker} if he {disfmarker} you have to put the data on a {disfmarker} on a non - backed - up disk to begin with .
Postdoc A: Well , but you can have it NW archive to {disfmarker} you can have , {vocalsound} uh , a non - backed - up disk NW archived ,
Grad F: Right .
PhD I: So that {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} otherwise you don't {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: and it 'll never show up on the nightly back - ups .
Grad F: Right . And then it never {disfmarker}
PhD I: Right . Right .
Grad F: Right . Which I 'm sure would make ever the sysadmins very happy .
PhD I: Right .
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Grad F: So , I think that 's a good idea .
PhD I: OK .
Grad F: That 's what we should do .
PhD I: OK .
Grad F: So , that means we 'll probably wanna convert all {disfmarker} all those files {disfmarker} filesystems to non - backed - up media .
PhD B: That sounds good .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad F: Yep .
Professor D: Um , another , thing on the agenda said SRI recognition experiments ? What 's that ?
PhD I: SRI recognition ? Oh .
Grad F: That wasn't me .
Professor D: Uh .
PhD I: Um . well ,
Professor D: Who 's that ?
PhD I: we have lots of them . Uh , I dunno . Chuck , do you have any {disfmarker} any updates ?
PhD B: N I 'm successfully , uh , increasing the error rate . Uh {disfmarker}
Grad F: That 's good .
Grad H: Mmm .
PhD I: Oh .
PhD G: Lift the Herve approach .
PhD B: Yeah . So , I mean I 'm just playing with , um , the number of Gaussians that we use in the {disfmarker} the recognizer , and {disfmarker}
PhD I: Well , you have to sa you have to {pause} tell people that you 're {disfmarker} you 're doing {disfmarker} you 're trying the tandem features .
PhD B: Yes , I 'm using tandem features .
Grad F: Oh you are ?
PhD B: And {disfmarker}
Grad F: Cool .
PhD I: A and I 'm still tinkering with the PLP features .
Grad F:
Professor D: Yeah , I got confused by the results . It sai because {disfmarker} uh , the {pause} meeting before , {vocalsound} you said " OK , we got it down to where they 're {disfmarker} they 're within a tenth of a percent " .
PhD B: That was on males .
PhD I: Right . That was {disfmarker} that was before I tried it on the females .
Professor D: Oh .
PhD I: See , women are nothi are , trouble .
Professor D: It 's the women are the problem . OK .
PhD I: Right ? As we all know . So .
PhD G: Well , let 's just say that men are simple .
PhD I: So {disfmarker} {comment} so , when {disfmarker} So I {disfmarker} I had {disfmarker} I ha
Grad F: That was a quick response .
PhD I: So , we had reached the point where {disfmarker}
PhD G: I 'm well rehearsed .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD I: we had reached the point where , {comment} um , on the male portion of the {pause} development set , the , um {disfmarker} or one of the development sets , I should say {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the , um {disfmarker} the male error rate with , uh , ICSI PLP features was pretty much identical with , uh , SRI features . which are {pause} MFCC . So , um , then I thought , " Oh , great . I 'll j I 'll {disfmarker} just let 's make sure everything works on the females . " And the error rate {disfmarker} you know , there was a three percent difference .
Professor D: Oh . Uh - huh .
PhD I: So ,
PhD G: Is there less training data ?
PhD I: uh {disfmarker}
PhD G: I mean , we don
PhD I: No , actually there 's more training data .
PhD G: This is on just digits ?
Professor D: No .
PhD I: No , no .
Grad F: No .
PhD B: Hub - five .
Grad F: It 's , uh , Swi
PhD G: Oh , sorry . OK . This is on {disfmarker}
PhD I: This is Hub - five .
PhD G: Oh , OK .
Grad F: Hub - five . Yeah .
PhD I: Yeah . Um , and the test data is CallHome and Switchboard . So , uh {disfmarker} so then {pause} um {disfmarker} Oh , and plus the {disfmarker} the vocal tract {pause} length normalization didn't {disfmarker} actually made things worse . So something 's really seriously wrong . So {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}
Professor D: Aha ! OK .
PhD I: So {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}
Professor D: So {disfmarker} but you see , now , between {disfmarker} between the males and the females , there 's certainly a much bigger difference in the scaling range , than there is , say , just within the males . And what you were using before was scaling factors that were just from the {disfmarker} the m the {pause} SRI front - end . And that worked {disfmarker} that worked fine .
PhD I: That 's true . Yeah .
Professor D: Uh , but now you 're looking over a larger range and it may not be so fine .
PhD I: Well , um {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} I just {disfmarker} d so the one thing that I then tried was to put in the low - pass filter , which we have in the {disfmarker} So , most {disfmarker} most Hub - five systems actually band - limit the {disfmarker} uh , at about , uh , thirty - seven hundred , um , hertz .
Professor D: Uh - huh .
PhD I: Although , you know , normally , I mean , the channel goes to four {disfmarker} four thousand . Right ? So , um {disfmarker} And that actually helped , uh {disfmarker} uh , a little bit .
Professor D: Uh - huh .
PhD I: Um {pause} and it didn't hurt on the males either . So , um {disfmarker} And I 'm now , uh , trying the {disfmarker} Oh , and suddenly , also the v the vocal tract length normalization only in the test se on the test data . So , you can do vocal tract length normalization on the test data only or on both the training and the test .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD I: And you expect it to help a little bit if you do it only on the test , and s more if you do it on both training and test .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD I: And so the {disfmarker} It now helps , if you do it only on the test , and I 'm currently retraining another set of models where it 's both in the training and the test , and then we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll have , hopefully , even better results . So {disfmarker} But there 's {disfmarker} It looks like there will still be some difference , maybe between one and two percent , um , for the females .
Professor D: Huh .
PhD I: And so , um , you know , I 'm open to suggestions .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
PhD I: And it is true that the , uh {disfmarker} that the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , we are using the {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} it can't be just the VTL ,
Professor D: Uh - huh .
PhD I: because if you don't do VTL in both systems , uh , you know , the {disfmarker} the females are considerably worse in the {disfmarker} with the PLP features .
Professor D: No {disfmarker} no . I {disfmarker} I remember that .
Grad F: It 's much worse . Yeah .
PhD I: So there must be some {disfmarker} something else going on .
PhD G: Well , what 's the standard {disfmarker} ? Yeah , so I thought the performance was actually a little better on females than males .
Grad F: That 's what I thought , too .
PhD I: Um , {pause} that {pause} ye {comment} overall , yes , but on this particular development test set , they 're actually a little worse . But that 's beside the point . We 're looking at the discrepancy between the SRI system and the SRI system when trained with ICSI features .
PhD G: Right . I 'm just wondering if that {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you have any indication of your standard features ,
Grad F: What 's {disfmarker} Are the freq ?
PhD G: you know , if that 's also different {pause} or in the same direction or not .
Professor D: You 're {disfmarker} This is {disfmarker} lemme ask a q more basic que
PhD G: Cuz {disfmarker}
Professor D: I mean , is this , uh {disfmarker} uh , iterative , Baum - Welch training ?
PhD I: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Or is it Viterbi training ? Or {disfmarker} ?
PhD I: It 's Baum - Welch training .
Professor D: Baum - Welch training . And how do you determine when to {disfmarker} to stop iterating ?
PhD I: Um {disfmarker} Well , actually , we {disfmarker} we just basically do a s a fixed number of iterations .
Grad F: Hmm .
PhD I: Uh , in this case four . Um , which {disfmarker} Eh , we used to do only three , and then we found out we can squeeze {disfmarker} And it was basically , we 're s we 're keeping it on the safe side . But you 're d Right . It might be that one more iteration {vocalsound} would {disfmarker} would help , but it 's sort of
Professor D: Or maybe {disfmarker} or maybe you 're doing one too many .
PhD I: you know .
Professor D: I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}
PhD I: No , but with Baum - Welch , there shouldn't be an over - fitting issue , really .
Professor D: Uh . {comment} Well , there can be . Sure .
Grad F: Well , you can try each one on a cross - validation set ,
PhD I: Um .
Professor D: It d if you {disfmarker} if you remember some years ago Bill Byrne did a thing where he was {disfmarker} he was looking at that ,
Grad F: can't you ?
Professor D: and he showed that you could get it .
PhD I: Yeah .
Professor D: So . But {disfmarker} {comment} but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but , um {disfmarker}
PhD I: Well , yeah . We can {disfmarker} Well , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the easy one to check ,
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD I: because we save all the intermediate models
Grad F: Do you {disfmarker} ?
PhD I: and we can {disfmarker}
Professor D: And in each case , ho
Grad F: What {disfmarker} ?
Professor D: um , I 'm sorry {disfmarker} in each case how do you determine , you know , the {disfmarker} the usual {pause} fudge factors ? The , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the , uh , language , uh , scaling , acoustic scaling , uh , uh {disfmarker}
PhD I: Um {pause} I uh {disfmarker} {comment} I 'm actually re - optimizing them . Although that hasn't shown to make {pause} a big difference .
Professor D: OK . And the pru the question he was asking at one point about pruning , uh {disfmarker} Remember that one ?
PhD I: Pruning {disfmarker} ?
Professor D: Well , he was {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} it looked like the probabil at one point he was looking at the probabilities he was getting out {disfmarker} at the likelihoods he was getting out of PLP versus mel cepstrum , and they looked pretty different ,
PhD I: Pruning in the {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: Yeah , the likelihoods were {pause} lower for the PLP .
Professor D: as I recall .
PhD G: Oh .
Professor D: And so , uh , there 's the question {disfmarker}
PhD I: I you mean {disfmarker} did you see this in the SRI system ?
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Was just looking through the log files ,
PhD I: Um . Well , the likelihoods are {disfmarker}
PhD B: and {disfmarker}
PhD I: You can't directly compare them , because , for every set of models you compute a new normalization . And so these log probabilities , they aren't directly comparable
PhD B: Oh .
PhD I: because you have a different normalization constants for each model you train .
PhD B: Hmm .
Professor D: But , still it 's a question {disfmarker}
PhD I: So {disfmarker}
Professor D: if you have some threshold somewhere in terms of beam search or something ,
PhD B: Well , yeah . That 's what I was wondering .
Professor D: or {disfmarker} ?
PhD I: W yeah . I mean {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: I mean , if you have one threshold that works well because the range of your likelihoods is in this area {disfmarker}
PhD I: We prune very conservatively . I mean , as we saw with the meeting data , um {pause} we could probably tighten the pruning without really {disfmarker} So we we basically we have a very open beam .
Professor D: But , you 're only talking about a percent or two .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: Right ? Here we 're - we 're saying that we there {disfmarker} gee , there 's this b eh , there 's this difference here . And {pause} it {disfmarker} See cuz , i i {comment} there could be lots of things . Right ? But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but , um , let 's suppose just for a second that , uh , we 've sort of taken out a lot of the {disfmarker} the major differences , uh , between the two .
PhD I: Right . Course . Mm - hmm . Right .
Professor D: I mean , we 're already sort of using the mel scale and we 're using the same style filter integration , and {vocalsound} and , well , we 're making sure that low and high {disfmarker}
PhD I: Actually , there is {disfmarker} the difference in that . So , for the PLP features we use the triangular filter shapes . And for the {disfmarker} in the SRI front - end we use the trapezoidal one .
Grad F: And what 's the top frequency of each ?
PhD I: Well , now it 's the same . It 's thirty {disfmarker} thirty to seven hundred and sixty hertz .
Grad F: Yeah . Exp - one 's triangular , one 's trapezoidal . So {disfmarker}
PhD I: No , no . But {disfmarker}
Professor D: Before we {disfmarker} i i th with straight PLP , it 's trapezoidal also .
PhD I: Well {disfmarker} But {disfmarker}
Professor D: But then we had a slight difference in the {disfmarker} in the scale . Uh , so .
PhD I: Since currently the Feacalc program doesn't allow me to change {pause} the filter shape independently of the scale .
Grad F: Uh - huh .
PhD I: And , I did the experiment on the SRI front - end where I tried the {disfmarker} y where the standard used to be to use trapezoidal filters . You can actually continuously vary it between the two . And so I wen I swi I tried the trap eh , triangular ones . And it did slightly worse , but it 's really a small difference .
Grad F: Hmm .
Professor D: Coup - Couple tenths of a percent or something .
PhD I: So {disfmarker}
Grad F: OK .
Professor D: Right .
Grad F: So it 's not just losing some {vocalsound} frequency range .
PhD I: Yeah , exactly . So , it 's not {disfmarker} I don't think the filter shape by itself will make a huge {comment} difference .
Professor D: Yeah . Right . So the oth {vocalsound} the other thing that {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yeah .
Professor D: So , f i We 've always viewed it , anyway , as the major difference between the two , is actually in the smoothing , that the {disfmarker} that the , um , {vocalsound} PLP , and {disfmarker} and the reason PLP has been advantageous in , uh , slightly noisy situations is because , {vocalsound} PLP does the smoothing at the end by an auto - regressive model ,
PhD I: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor D: and mel cepstrum does it by just computing the lower cepstral coefficients .
PhD I: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Um . So , um {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .
PhD I: OK . So {pause} one thing I haven't done yet is to actually do all of this with a much larger {disfmarker} with our full training set . So right now , we 're using a {disfmarker} I don't know , forty ? I i it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} eh {comment} it 's a f training set that 's about , um , you know , by a factor of four smaller than what we use when we train the full system . So , some of these smoothing issues are over - fitting for that matter .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD I: And the Baum - Welch should be much less of a factor , if you go full {disfmarker} whole hog .
Professor D: Could be . Yeah .
PhD I: And so , w so , just um {disfmarker} so the strategy is to first sort of treat things {pause} with fast turn - around on a smaller training set and then , {vocalsound} when you 've sort of , narrowed it down , you try it on a larger training set .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD I: And so , we haven't done that yet .
Professor D: Now the other que related question , though , is {disfmarker} is , {vocalsound} uh , what 's the boot models for these things ?
PhD I: Th - th the boot models are trained from scratch . So we compute , um {disfmarker} So , we start with a , um , alil alignment that we computed with the b sort of the best system we have . And {disfmarker} and then we train from scratch . So we com we do a , you know , w um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We collect the {disfmarker} uh , the observations from those alignments under each of the feature sets that {disfmarker} that we {pause} train . And then , from there we do , um {disfmarker} There 's a lot of , actually {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The way it works , you first train a phonetically - tied mixture model . Um . You do a total of {disfmarker} First you do a context - independent PTM model . Then you switch to a context {disfmarker} You do two iterations of that . Then you do two iterations of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of context - dependent phonetically - tied mixtures . And then from that you {disfmarker} you do the {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you go to a state - clustered model ,
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD I: and you do four iterations of that . So there 's a lot of iterations overall between your original boot models and the final models . I don't think that {disfmarker} Hmm . We have never seen big differences . Once I thought " oh , I can {disfmarker} Now I have these much better models . I 'll re - generate my initial alignments . Then I 'll get much better models at the end . " Made no difference whatsoever . It 's {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} eh , i
Professor D: Right . Well , mis for making things better .
PhD I: the boot models are recur
Professor D: Yeah . But , this for making things worse . This it migh Th - the thought is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is possible {disfmarker} another possible {pause} partial cause is if the boot models {vocalsound} used a comple used a different feature set , that {disfmarker}
PhD I: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . But there are no boot models , in fact . You {disfmarker} you 're not booting from initial models . You 're booting from initial alignments .
Professor D: Which you got from a different feature set .
PhD I: That 's correct .
Professor D: So , those features look at the data differently , actually .
PhD I: Yeah , but {disfmarker}
Professor D: I mean , you know , they {disfmarker} they will find boundaries a little differently , though {disfmarker} You know , all th all that sort of thing is actually slightly different . I 'd expect it to be a minor effect ,
PhD I: But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but , what I 'm {disfmarker} what I 'm saying is {disfmarker}
Professor D: but {disfmarker}
PhD I: So , we e w f w For a long time we had used boot alignments that had been trained with a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with the same front - end but with acoustic models that were , like , fifteen percent worse than what we use now .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD I: And with a dict different dictionary {disfmarker} with a considerably different dictionary , which was much less detailed and much less well - suited .
Professor D: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
PhD I: And so , {vocalsound} then we switched to new boot alignments , which {disfmarker} which now had the benefit of all these improvements that we 've made over two years in the system .
Professor D: Right .
PhD I: And , the result in the end was no different .
Professor D: Right .
PhD I: So , what I 'm saying is , the exact nature of these boot alignments is probably not {pause} a big factor in the quality of the final models .
Professor D: Yeah , maybe not . But {pause} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} I st still see it as {disfmarker} I mean , {vocalsound} there 's {disfmarker} there 's a history to this , too ,
PhD I: Yeah .
Professor D: but I {disfmarker} uh , I don't wanna go into ,
PhD I: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: but {disfmarker} but I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I th I think it could be the things {pause} that it {disfmarker} the data is being viewed in a certain way , uh , that a beginning is here rather than there and so forth ,
PhD I: Yeah . Right .
Professor D: because the actual signal - processing you 're doing is slightly different .
PhD I: Right .
Professor D: But , {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} that 's probably not it .
PhD I: Yeah . Anyway , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I should really reserve , uh , any conclusions until we 've done it on the large training set , um , and until we 've seen the results with the {disfmarker} with the VTL in training .
Professor D: Yeah . At some point you also might wanna take the same thing and try it on , uh , some Broadcast News data or something else that actually has {disfmarker} has some noisy {disfmarker} {vocalsound} noisy components , so we can see if any conclusions we come to holds {vocalsound} across {pause} different data .
PhD I: So . Yeah . Right .
Professor D: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD I: And , uh , with this , I have to leave .
Professor D: OK .
Grad H: Hmm !
Professor D: So , is there something quick about Absinthe {pause} that you {disfmarker} ?
PhD I: With this said .
Grad F: Uh . Just what we were talking about before , which is that I ported a Blass library to Absinthe , and then got {disfmarker} got it working with fast - forward , and got {vocalsound} {vocalsound} a speedup roughly proportional to the number of processors times the clock cycle .
PhD I: Oh .
Grad F: So , that 's pretty good .
PhD I: Oh ! Cool .
Grad F: Um , I 'm in the process of doing it for Quicknet , but there 's something going wrong and it 's about half the speed that I was estimating it should be , and I 'm not sure why .
PhD I: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: But I 'll keep working on it . But the {disfmarker} what it means is that it 's likely that for net training and forward passes , we 'll {disfmarker} Absinthe will be a good machine . Especially if we get a few more processors and upgrade the processors .
PhD I: A few more processors ? How many are you shooting for ?
Grad F: There 're five now . It can hold eight .
PhD I: Oh , OK .
Professor D: Yeah , we 'll just go buy them , I guess .
Grad F: And it 's also five - fifty megahertz and you can get a gigahertz .
PhD I: Yeah .
Grad F: So .
PhD I: Can you mix {pause} t uh , processors of different speed ?
Grad F: I don't think so . I think we 'd have to do all {disfmarker}
PhD I: OK .
Professor D: Probably just throw away the old ones , and {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yep .
Professor D: Thank you {pause} for the box ,
PhD I: Oh , OK .
Professor D: and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I 'll just go buy their process .
Grad H: Hmm !
PhD I: Maybe we can stick them in another system . I dunno .
Grad F: We 'd have to get a {disfmarker} almost certainly have to get a , uh , Netfinity server .
PhD I: I see .
Grad F: They 're pretty {disfmarker} pretty specialized .
Professor D: Yeah . OK .
PhD I: OK .
Professor D: Is {disfmarker} is Liz coming back , do you know , or {disfmarker} ? I dunno . Yeah . Oh , you don't . OK . Alright . Alright . See you . Um . Alright . So {disfmarker} Uh , they 're having tea out there . So I guess the other thing that we were gonna talk about is {disfmarker} is , uh , demo . And , um , so , these are the demos for the {pause} uh , July , uh , meeting {pause} and , um {disfmarker} DARPA mee
Grad F: July what ? Early July ? Late July ?
Professor D: Oh , I think it 's July fifteenth .
Postdoc A: Sixteen to eighteen , I think .
Professor D: Is that it ?
Postdoc A: Roughly .
Professor D: Yeah , sixteenth , eighteenth . Yeah . So , we talked about getting something together for that , but maybe , uh {disfmarker} maybe we 'll just put that off for now , given that {disfmarker} But I think maybe we should have a {disfmarker} a sub - meeting , I think , uh , probably , uh , Adam and {disfmarker} and , uh , Chuck and me should talk about {disfmarker} should get together and talk about that sometime soon .
Grad F: Over a cappuccino tomorrow ?
Professor D: Yeah {comment} something like that . Um , uh , you know , maybe {disfmarker} maybe we 'll involve Dan Ellis at some {disfmarker} some level as well .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Um . OK . The {disfmarker} the tea is {disfmarker} is going , so , uh , I suggest we do , uh {disfmarker} uh , a unison .
Grad F: A unison digits ?
Postdoc A: OK .
Professor D: Yeah . Gets our {disfmarker}
Grad F: Which is gonna be a little hard for a couple people because we have different digits forms .
PhD E: Oops .
Grad F: We have a {disfmarker} I found a couple of old ones .
Professor D: Oh .
Grad H: Hmm .
Professor D: Well , that 'll be interesting . So , uh {disfmarker}
Grad F: Have you done digits before ?
Professor D: No .
Grad C: I haven't done it .
Grad F: OK . So , uh , the idea is just to read each line {pause} with a short pause between lines ,
Grad C: Alright .
Grad F: not between {disfmarker} And , uh , since we 're in a hurry , we were just gonna read everyone all at once . So , if you sorta plug your ears and read {disfmarker}
Grad C: OK .
Grad F: So first read the transcript number , and then start reading the {pause} digits .
Grad C: Sure .
Grad F: OK ? One , two , three .
Professor D: OK we 're done .
Grad F: And {disfmarker}
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doc_4
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Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: So ,
Project Manager: So , uh now {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hi Christa . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it's the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Hi Sammy . {vocalsound} It's the detail design meeting , so we're going {disfmarker} last meeting . So um , first uh Mark and Rama are going to present uh the prototype . Uh then uh Sammy will propose some uh crite cr criteria to evaluate this prototype . Then , w we {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yes . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And then we going to do some finance to see if uh it is uh feasible
User Interface: And chocolate ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} and uh at the end we will we will um evaluate ourself as a team . {vocalsound} And that's all . Okay . So first , {vocalsound} let's uh see the prototype .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh , here we have our prototype model .
Project Manager: Okay . And you have some slides then ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , we have also some slides .
Project Manager: {gap} Yeah . Mm .
User Interface: Yes , and place some slides .
Project Manager: Okay . Uh so in which uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh , participant three . {vocalsound} Prototype .
Industrial Designer: In {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm okay . Mm .
Industrial Designer: Five .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh , so this is our remote control .
Industrial Designer: Him .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's a r working prototype . You can use it now by switching all these buttons . So first , I present as we came to this perfect model ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and then we'll give some technical specifications .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: That's {vocalsound} well {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , so that's that . Please , next slide . We analysed all the fruits
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and contacted NASA , and uh made some {vocalsound} real good {disfmarker}
Project Manager: MASA ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . If you can see this , and the stars are showing that {gap} . And um , {vocalsound} s society will accept that . For sure .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} And making some analysis of different fruits , we choose the ultimate form , ultimate colours , and uh ultimate smell of it . S please , next slide . But we still didn't want to go far from our titanium idea , 'cause it's the most of the moder the m the {gap} modern material we can p select . And it's practical . And it's still say it's for our needs , so please press something . And as I said , {vocalsound} it's perfect . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Please press it .
Industrial Designer: Experience . Explanat
User Interface: Everyone is {gap} f really uh really glad to obtain an {disfmarker} {vocalsound} s such a r such a device .
Marketing: Such a nice thing . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: See this {gap} . {vocalsound}
User Interface: So you can touch it with your hands .
Marketing: Can I ?
User Interface: Sure . Yes . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You can {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ho-ho . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} imitating flatulence] {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What do you say ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: N
Marketing: It says {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} You must say it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Spongy .
Marketing: I will uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} One day .
Marketing: I'll buy it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: If I if I need so . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: He {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hopefully my daughter will like it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay . Y and we got the answer . Uh , it is , yes , of course .
Marketing: Yes , of course . Of c course . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} , please next slide . Um , this is a prototype . You can have a look at it , and {disfmarker} That's all I wanted to say .
Marketing: Ah .
User Interface: Now it's technical specification by our colleague .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh , there is {vocalsound} a button missing .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: This this is really flexible . You can add your buttons .
Marketing: It's in option . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . So function , mm {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So , as we discussed , we have to switch on switch off whenever we want . And so , we have buttons and using L_C_D_ , or like you can use this {vocalsound} jog wheel and select which ever option on the L_C_D_ , and then do on and off . {vocalsound} Then you ha you'll have volume control . So , you you can press these buttons to increase or decrease the volume .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And we have some L_C_D_ controls . Like , m switching the L_C_D_ display if you want to use L_C_D_ , or you don't want you can just use normal button .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And we have speech recognition . Here you have microphone , and then it date records your voice , and then it try to recognise .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And it can also do the action .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And location finder . And we want to do the location basically using speech recogniser . You can just say , where is my remote control .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Or uh , you can just give some nickname to your remote control , like Bobby {gap} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Bobby . {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Hey , babe .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And then , {vocalsound} it will say hi . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Bob . {vocalsound} Hey Bob . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , hi , and then you can use it . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay ,
Project Manager: Hmm . {vocalsound} 'Kay . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: that's good .
Industrial Designer: So , {vocalsound} um our team is now fruits . Mainly strawberry . So , you can {vocalsound} have {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh , these are strawberries . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And then you can see the look L_C_D_ and all the switches .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Are colourful . Yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Material , we want to stick to titanium . {vocalsound} We will send , we want to {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Fruit smelling spongy titanium . {vocalsound} I didn't know it exist , but that's great .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , or s {vocalsound} So , we want to have {vocalsound} simple and perfect shapes , like I shown in these phones . You can have your own designs and and you can feel simple designs . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} And you can choose colours on your day for each day , or even many colours .
Marketing: Ha .
Project Manager: Ho-ho . That's for the L_C_D_ or for the titanium ?
Marketing: You mean we can change the colour uh of th
Industrial Designer: For the L_C_D_ .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah okay , for the L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: With titanium it's {disfmarker} it is silver .
Marketing: Tit titanium is {disfmarker}
User Interface: We are still working on titanium .
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: So , r we'll start with L_C_D_ .
Marketing: Uh , okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm , yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: You can ask Bob . It's Tuesday . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Hey , you know you're theme today . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , Bob , please . {vocalsound} {gap} Tuesday colour . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Even you can configure your colours for its {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} depending on your mood , or s
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Black for Sunday . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And you can have many colours on weekends . Or {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And w wait , wh what are the strawberries for ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Wh wh
Industrial Designer: Huh ?
Marketing: On the L_C_D_ ?
Industrial Designer: Ah , these are like sensors .
Marketing: Oh .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Of course .
User Interface: That's location sensors .
Marketing: {vocalsound} What do you think ? {vocalsound} Strawberry sensors . {vocalsound} Very useful .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Strawberries .
Industrial Designer: So , {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: after this meeting we'll propose a party for our success for {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Ah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Lounge meeting . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So , if you are vegetarian or you have any options , please let us know .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , and we can just {gap} some strawberry first . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Alright . Good . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oops .
Industrial Designer: S
Marketing: So , huh . Interesting . In interesting . Mm mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So , any specific questions for {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we'll see in the financial part if uh {vocalsound} all {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} gets into {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It makes sense .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Let's make a party first maybe . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} W Who is the five uh {disfmarker} fifty millions we {vocalsound} first make a party in ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Then we can discuss {disfmarker} We can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , then we can have how much for how money is left . {vocalsound}
Marketing: So uh , this is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: What a design .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Uh , so {disfmarker} Let's uh ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's my turn .
Project Manager: yeah , let's see if uh th it's meet the evaluation criterium . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Let's see if this {disfmarker} Yeah , if you meet {vocalsound} the evaluation criterion .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oops .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Fudge .
Marketing: Yeah . So , evaluation please . So . You made a very nice prototype , and um , I think , we now need altogether to try to evaluate it to see if it makes sense to do it , if it fulfils our {disfmarker} what we want to do , and things like that . So mm {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh , next slide , please . {vocalsound} As you know , before going and uh creating and producing these strawberry {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} remote control , it's very important to first verify if it makes sense , if we have a chance to sell it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Uh , so we need to evaluate it um , try to do it in a constative way , and as much as we can . To {disfmarker} so what I propose is that we are going to to have this scale from one to seven . One meaning that , ye yes uh it fulfils uh the the criterion , whatever it is . And seven meaning , no it doesn't fulfil at all . And we're all l going to list all the criterion . I'm going to go to that next slide ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: and together try to evaluate this according to this criterion and from one to seven . And then we are just going to have an average , which will give us the value of our uh remote control . So , maybe we can have a look at the criteria ?
Industrial Designer: Fancy .
Marketing: So these are the criterion uh I'm {disfmarker} I thought were important . Of course , this can be discussed , but let's let's see , so let's vote . So we have fancy here and we have the scale from one to seven with four in the middle .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Huh .
Marketing: So ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , what's is really {disfmarker}
Marketing: what do you think , is it fancy ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh , it's really {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh , I think that fancy , we can say it is fancy . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It is very very fancy . Or have you ever seen something like that ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh . I am not the d the only one choosing , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , of course .
Project Manager: Uh what do you think ?
Marketing: What do you think ?
User Interface: Feel the weight .
Marketing: Is it {disfmarker} The weight is later .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Oh .
User Interface: Really . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh-huh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Now {vocalsound} we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: We're on the fanciness now . I think it's quite fancy .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We can give at least five or six , seven .
Marketing: It's uh {disfmarker} Yeah , so {disfmarker} No it's it's one .
Project Manager: It's in the other {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Oh , {gap} Oh . So {disfmarker} Oh , okay . Yeah , okay . Oh , okay . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , o one means it's , yes , a very fancy and seven mean no at all .
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: So it's one or two .
Project Manager: Two . Let's say two , yeah .
Industrial Designer: M maybe two .
Marketing: What do you think ? Two ?
User Interface: Two . Two .
Marketing: Okay . So here , two . Up .
Industrial Designer: Technology .
Marketing: Then we have uh technology .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: So , what about technology ? We have uh we have speech recognition , we have location based {gap} ,
Industrial Designer: And we have L_C_D_ .
Marketing: we have L_C_D_ .
Project Manager: Change colour of t
Industrial Designer: So you change colours .
Marketing: Change colour , I mean that's very {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Useful .
Project Manager: Yeah , I think it's a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Quite
User Interface: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Marketing: d I think it's a one for that , at least .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah . It's silly .
Marketing: At least a one , yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-mm . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Robustness , uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Uh , still we need to cha {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So {vocalsound} let's suppose my daughter take it and um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} and through it away .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Do you think it makes sense that it's going to live again ? Uh , maybe not the prototype .
Project Manager: The strawberries {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Let's try . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Oh my god . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Maybe strawberry .
Marketing: Okay , we just lost one strawberry .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: No . How can I say this .
Marketing: Not at all ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we can easily plug it .
User Interface: It's still it's still working , and your daughter got a bonus .
Marketing: It is {disfmarker} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} A strawberry .
Marketing: So it's not so bad .
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: I um uh I would say three .
Project Manager: Yeah . But it's too {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: It's um robust , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , that does make sense , yeah ?
Industrial Designer: Useful ?
Marketing: Useful . {vocalsound} Well , so the question is does it have uh the minimum requirement of re remote control ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: So I don't know . These buttons are uh {disfmarker} It not clear .
Project Manager: Oh , yeah , lets me try .
Marketing: But you have at least uh next produce .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: What is uh next , please ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , channel . I this is volume control and channel changes . These are the main {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh , it depends on the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And you can uh do di two sites ?
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , and you can do on L_C_D_ using these going to scrolling all the option .
Project Manager: Okay , also .
Industrial Designer: So if you don't want {disfmarker}
Marketing: So but , for instance , because the L_C_D_ is not uh touch control , touch screen , you cannot go to channel twenty five directly .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , um {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: You can , by using the {disfmarker}
User Interface: You can .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Directly .
User Interface: You go {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You c push here the the {disfmarker}
User Interface: So , the basic mode {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . So that's simple . The basic mode is uh you got just two buttons and a jog dial .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: With two buttons , you do this like uh volume up , volume down .
Marketing: Oh , it's a jog dial , okay .
User Interface: Or if you go to the site , it's channel up channel down .
Industrial Designer: And channel .
Marketing: Uh-huh . Okay .
User Interface: And if you want to make to s twenty-five , you push on this .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: You select twenty , you select five .
Industrial Designer: You can select .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: That's it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah mm .
Marketing: It's much longer than that that being two two five , no ?
User Interface: No .
Marketing: Don't you think so ? May {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} okay , we can go . That's uh {disfmarker} You're right .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah , yeah . Y you need to like press two and five and {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: That's {disfmarker} it's less uh {disfmarker} Yeah . But it's it's nice , because people anyway don't go there .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah . Yeah mm .
Marketing: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So what do you think for it , usefulness ?
Industrial Designer: So , d Yeah , we need to address {disfmarker} we want {disfmarker}
Marketing: Seems to be useful . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: we only address two main functions here and the other functions will be on L_C_D_ . So
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Let me understand well ,
Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: because I'm not sure {disfmarker} that's for {disfmarker} that this one are b d uh two dir directional button .
Marketing: Both . Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Up .
Marketing: Up down or left right . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . And which {disfmarker} what is that ?
User Interface: It's a jog dial for controlling the cursor on the L_C_D_ screen .
Industrial Designer: This is jog wheel .
Marketing: That {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , okay . It's a kind {disfmarker} Oh , okay okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Like , selecting the menus .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Um , {vocalsound} see in L_C_D_ , like you will have blocks and you select which one .
Marketing: Cool .
Project Manager: Oh oh okay , great .
Marketing: I would say then uh {disfmarker} {gap}
Project Manager: Now it's looks us useful .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Two or three ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Two or three ?
Industrial Designer: Two , maybe . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Two .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Okay , two . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So size and weight .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah . {gap}
Marketing: Is it the the the effective size and weight that the {disfmarker} Is it uh real size , real weight ? Or {disfmarker} Because it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's {disfmarker} size al almost {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Size is going to be that , yeah ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , because it is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh , and and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The weight will be bit lighter . We will s We use titanium .
User Interface: Sure ,
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
User Interface: without titanium alloy , it's going to be light .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: It's going to be lighter ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Of course .
Marketing: because this seems to be very heavy f I mean ,
Industrial Designer: Heavy . Yeah .
Marketing: for my daughter , for instance .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Not sure if uh {vocalsound} she can use it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But sides {disfmarker} uh , the sides should be okay . {gap} . Yeah
Marketing: So , should be okay .
Industrial Designer: mm .
Marketing: Up to three for that ,
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
Marketing: because I'm {disfmarker} haven't seen the weight so I must not uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay . Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Marketing: Colour and shape .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh-oh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well , so colour , it seems that we have the several colours for the L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: But um , it's not very clear what is the colour of the sh the sh {vocalsound} the case .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The case is silver titanium , no ?
Marketing: It's a {disfmarker} it's going to be titanium . Okay , okay .
Project Manager: Yeah , it's {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: That's nice .
Project Manager: Let's imagine .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think it's good . Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And what about the strawberries on the top ? {vocalsound} I'm not convince . {vocalsound} But maybe I'm not trendy . But , uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yahoo . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Well y you know , it's this uh fruit and vegetable year .
Industrial Designer: Oh . Yeah , yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} uh they're not useful .
Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I I mean it {disfmarker} that's uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So maybe , I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh , I think usefulness is m as as I rem um just have to remind you that usefulness is much less important than fanciness .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Whether it's fancy or not now , it {disfmarker} we have to decide .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: But this
Project Manager: I would have m uh i found more fancy that the fruits are useful .
Marketing: If it's {disfmarker} Uh-huh . So , that they will {disfmarker} that maybe the fruit may be here instead . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , well then it's bit difficult to use . Not like this d We're just giving the fruit for more fanciness and more attraction , too .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . But the n {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So , maybe think we can have rubber or some sponges , stuff for strawberries and different colours .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: So it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: So , it seems we are not so clear on the shape uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Even {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No , I'm not sure uh why {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: These buttons {disfmarker}
Project Manager: uh if it was like this {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} But it looks really {vocalsound} not really good .
Project Manager: I It's {gap} n {vocalsound} no , it's not fancy any more .
Industrial Designer: I mean , the f Yeah . So these are kind of rubber things . Even if you lose one you can just put whatever .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: And {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Even we can provide many different colours or different fruits , and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh-huh . And different routes . Okay , I see what {disfmarker}
User Interface: Moreover , moreover it covers it covers all the end goals . Even if it is , you know , it's very rounded ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: but still you got some rubber fruit here , and it's completely uh completely secure to leave it uh with children and that .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , so you you you feel like it's something uh a protection for the remote control .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , we've {disfmarker} yeah we have sensors here and so here and here ,
Project Manager: Also .
Industrial Designer: so we just {disfmarker} Yeah , so even if you don't put , it works . But this is really fancy . {gap}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: I suggested three .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Because uh , everybody s doesn't seem to be convince ,
User Interface: Okay . Okay .
Marketing: although it's quite {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: You have good arguments .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: And uh the last one is adaptive . This is not r maybe not as important as the other one , {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: but uh can we adapt it to each each personal use ?
User Interface: Sure , sure , just look at it . {vocalsound} It's full adaptable . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Great .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wow , that's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Fully adaptable .
User Interface: Yeah , you can fit it into your palm , you know .
Marketing: That's {disfmarker} Yeah . {vocalsound} So you can fit into your palm , okay .
Project Manager: Yea
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: That {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You can {disfmarker}
Marketing: What else can we need ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: You {disfmarker} Do you think you are gonna be able to do that with ti titanium as well ?
Project Manager: Yeah , it's fudge titanium . {vocalsound} You know .
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's fudge , yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Right , yeah . {vocalsound} And uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm , {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , fruit titanium , yeah . Well , I if if this is {disfmarker} if you are ready to do that , then I think it deserves a one . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Let's go for one . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Now we have to do the average . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Three , three , six , eight , eleven .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Who is good in math ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's two point one seven .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} Two point one seven . That's nice . Two point one seven out of seven .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: I think we have a good good thing .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Well , that's all I had to say about the evaluation .
Project Manager: So it's a good evaluation .
Marketing: So {disfmarker} It seems to be good , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah mm .
Marketing: We have uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , two one one seven , we have . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
Marketing: Yeah . Okay . Thanks .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . So now , it has to fulfil the {vocalsound} financial criterium ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Financi
Marketing: Ah-ha .
Project Manager: So , I have an {disfmarker} Here . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Energy .
Marketing: So so how many batteries do we need ?
Industrial Designer: Uh , we use bat One battery .
Marketing: One battery ?
Project Manager: Okay ,
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: so two .
Marketing: Good . Why two ?
Industrial Designer: Oh , we just need one , I guess .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Say no . No , ne never install .
Project Manager: Uh-huh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Two batteries or one ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh .
Industrial Designer: No , number is one . We need only one battery .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah ,
Marketing: Only one .
Project Manager: but the price is two . Oh , number .
Marketing: No , no . But no , no . No , no way .
Project Manager: Sorry sorry sorry . I'm sorry .
User Interface: No , uh you just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Number , number .
User Interface: Number . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah . Oh .
Marketing: Yeah . You never use uh Excel ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No , never . {vocalsound}
User Interface: How {disfmarker}
Marketing: Good . {vocalsound}
User Interface: What what's the limit ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} H {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's twelve bucks .
User Interface: Uh , it's it's okay that I don't know , 'cause uh it's not my field . Twelve bucks . Okay ,
Marketing: Twelve bucks .
User Interface: now {disfmarker} Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Twelve and a half , I think .
User Interface: Check that number also . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So we {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} Okay , electronics .
Industrial Designer: We have sample chip .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh , like simple chip , yeah .
Marketing: It's a simple chip ?
Industrial Designer: So , yeah .
Marketing: Simple chip , okay . One .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Four buttons at least .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And then we have the t sample speaker sensor for speech recognition . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And for the {disfmarker} One also .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , one to one .
Marketing: One or two ? One ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , one .
Marketing: Okay . So the case , which one uh is it in the end ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I think we will go for a single curve , no ?
Marketing: Let's do a single curve .
Industrial Designer: Oh , is {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's it's flat .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh . {vocalsound} Oh , okay .
Marketing: It's flat , and curved .
Project Manager: I thought you can curve
User Interface: It's flat .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} somebody . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} But it is flat ,
Marketing: It's curvable . {vocalsound}
User Interface: you {disfmarker} Look . It's curvable , but it's not curved . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Maybe there is a supplement for that {gap} , no ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: It's only {gap} curve ?
Project Manager: Oh see , I I think {vocalsound} that the the price is this one .
Marketing: Okay , let's go .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} This {disfmarker} Okay ,
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: you d {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Don't chip on me .
Marketing: We tried , we tried .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh , okay .
Industrial Designer: Oh . Titanium .
Marketing: So , what is it ? T titanium ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Mm , that's expensive .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm-mm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} But she wanted u the {vocalsound} fudge titanium .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , well {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Let's stick to s titan .
Project Manager: I think it's five , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you don't say {gap} . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Special colour ?
User Interface: Well , n Why three ?
Industrial Designer: No , only one , no ?
Marketing: No because uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Why three ?
Project Manager: Oh , sorry . Again , I'm {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} See it .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Special colour ,
Industrial Designer: Interface .
Project Manager: or it's only on the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh .
Industrial Designer: Yes , in L_C_D_ display .
Project Manager: Yeah , but {vocalsound} there is no {vocalsound} colour here .
Industrial Designer: Ok Yeah , an Yeah .
Project Manager: So I put it here .
Industrial Designer: Push-button .
Marketing: So the L_C_D_ {disfmarker}
Project Manager: How many push-button ?
Industrial Designer: Scro
Project Manager: Three or two ?
Industrial Designer: Uh , two .
Marketing: Two .
Project Manager: Is there {disfmarker} The scroll-wheel , okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: One scroll wheel {vocalsound} .
Marketing: It's going to be expensive . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: One L_C_D_ displayed .
Project Manager: Okay . Um {disfmarker} That's that's not {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's all ?
Project Manager: We choose this one , and not this one .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: No . Oh , I think , no it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's cheaper .
Marketing: Uh , is it a scroll wheel and pe push button , th this centre one ?
Project Manager: Or only a scroll-wheel .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Only scroll wheel .
Marketing: Or only only scroll wheel , okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah mm . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You try to s {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You are trying to make make up {disfmarker} {vocalsound} make us up .
Project Manager: No , no , no .
Industrial Designer: It's already {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Because {vocalsound} how do you do to {vocalsound} y select ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ah .
Marketing: No , but you select with the two d the other two buttons ,
Project Manager: Yeah , I mean you you go on the location with your scroll wheel
Industrial Designer: Y ye
Marketing: no ? That's true .
Project Manager: and then you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Then it automatically {disfmarker} we can just do like you feel , it goes . And it will activate {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Stay longer . Okay .
Marketing: It should stay . Yeah .
Project Manager: Oops . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um , plus , yeah , it's {disfmarker} price is really {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , okay . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Special colours , yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: For buttons .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: No ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , buttons and strawberries .
User Interface: buttons just normal .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Special form .
Project Manager: You you have all of these , no ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} She's very hard on this . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm maybe n not this one but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Special colour ? Yeah . No . Special material ?
User Interface: That's for buttons .
Industrial Designer: Uh , we have titan
User Interface: But buttons are standard .
Marketing: Yeah , buttons are the standard buttons . Yeah . It's only buttons , these .
Project Manager: Yeah , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Nothing special .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay . So we are at seventeen dot eight .
Project Manager: Not special colours an interest in ?
Marketing: No , the colour is in the L_C_D_ .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And buttons are not colourised ? They are m
Industrial Designer: Mm , hmm ,
Marketing: I no .
Industrial Designer: I think uh because you can just go for a good colours .
Marketing: We can just use this red .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Boo-hoo . {vocalsound} It's already too expensive . {vocalsound} Apparently .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So what is {disfmarker} Are we supposed to cut things out now ?
Project Manager: Yeah . Mm .
Marketing: Uh , until we get twelve fifty .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So think of what we can cut uh here . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well , if I look at what is the most expensive things , uh it's the L_C_D_
Industrial Designer: Sample speaker .
Marketing: and the speaker .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Apparently , we have to choose one or the other . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Well , as you may know there's some research done in the field of producing energy from mechanical eng , I mean , producing electricity from mechanical energy . So , the point is that when you take device and push the button , you produce enough energy
Project Manager: But you don't need a battery ?
User Interface: to make electricity . Yeah , that you don't need a battery . So , it's something like hand dynamo robot . A real high-tech version of it .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: But um
Marketing: So that would {disfmarker}
Project Manager: it's like the hand dynamo , no ?
Industrial Designer: Maybe the jog wheel can be like kind of hand
Marketing: So , but if we select the hand dynamo it's okay , we only {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} is {disfmarker}
Marketing: We we win one .
User Interface: Okay ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: That's already that .
Project Manager: Uh it's a it's a beginning .
Marketing: Okay , let's do that .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Why not .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Let's do that .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} One here and here .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , just remo
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: And I propose to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: S
User Interface: So uh , about chips . Advanced chip on print , right ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So , put minus one there , please . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I'm not sure if this is legal .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's right . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Why not ?
Industrial Designer: Uh , no .
User Interface: And ?
Marketing: And ?
Project Manager: M maybe minus uh three , no ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: No . {vocalsound}
User Interface: So , was there result ?
Industrial Designer: No , no . It's not {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay , let's see .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm . Mm .
User Interface: Let's have a look .
Industrial Designer: It's not changing , no ?
User Interface: Why ?
Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} you don't
Marketing: Yeah , yeah , yeah , if {disfmarker} Click somewhere , you'll see features .
User Interface: Oops .
Marketing: Yes , it does .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Maybe put minus two , so it looks uh {vocalsound} more reasonable . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . Why not .
Marketing: Yeah , anyway {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh , sorry .
User Interface: Minus .
Marketing: No , minus two .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Nobody will know .
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's not recorded , is it ?
User Interface: Good .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay , we're on time .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Good .
Industrial Designer: So now on , we can increase our {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Still you have two more . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh , we can put uh a hand dynamo and a battery if you want .
Industrial Designer: Maybe we can use it for our party .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh .
User Interface: And a battery and a battery , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Both its it's cool . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: No , now we are exp exceeding I think .
User Interface: Now it's fancy ,
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: let's add one instead of two . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that {disfmarker}
Marketing: It {disfmarker} Is it ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah y
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think we're exceeding now .
Industrial Designer: No , but point five point three .
Marketing: We have to remove the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Uh , it's better . I think they are counting uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Mm . It's maximum
Industrial Designer: Is really strict ?
Marketing: We would prefer ,
Project Manager: and don't have to {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Marketing: yeah . Maximum is maximum .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah .
Marketing: So , remove one of them . Yeah . Okay . Okay , we're uh on target .
Project Manager: Uh , mm-mm . Yeah . Mm . Okay . Mm . So {vocalsound} target reached . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I'm just curious to see this
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ho {vocalsound}
Marketing: uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} my {disfmarker} {vocalsound} address chip on print .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's um English uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Trick {vocalsound} . Uh , I would say it's the Russian trick , but
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , but uh {gap} is uh English . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Anyway {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No ,
Industrial Designer: Oh . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well , I don't know .
Marketing: they may have some their origins , strange origins {disfmarker}
User Interface: I don't know . I am not sure who was programming this calculator , you know . 'Cause uh {disfmarker} I wonder if we put A_ or B_ somewhere instead of a number .
Project Manager: Mm , let's try .
Marketing: {vocalsound} No , no , no .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And we can discuss all these things in our party .
Marketing: Let's finish this meeting instead . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} I save it uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: What else ?
Project Manager: Okay , so next mm {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: No , that's yours .
Marketing: This is right .
Project Manager: Sorry .
Marketing: Okay ,
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Marketing: so finance , that's done . Are the cost under twelve ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah , very much .
Marketing: Yes . Project evaluation , good . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . So now {disfmarker}
User Interface: Next slide .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Project process .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We have to make um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Safe uh asse uh safe assessment .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah . Mm . See mm how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Are we a good team ? Mm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah , I think we've listened to everybody .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Everybody could say what they thought .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: And uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is there enough room for creativity ?
User Interface: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Mm . And you . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . When we see the results , there is no doubt there {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's really {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound} Oh . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Well , project evaluation .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Maybe a lack of leadership ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: M maybe not , huh ?
Marketing: Team-work , very strong , I would say .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , our team-work is really strong .
Marketing: Team-work , no problem . Means . Whiteboard , digital pens .
Industrial Designer: Oh , we still {gap} , I guess .
User Interface: What was the {disfmarker} Oh yeah , what was good ? Everything . What was bad ?
Marketing: Yeah , I think white-board is useful . Digital pens , useful .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: New ideas found ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So , you say , is there sheep ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Luck . {vocalsound} Okay . So luck , but good . {vocalsound}
Marketing: But uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Which imply good uh team performance .
Marketing: Yeah ,
Project Manager: {gap} {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . A good leader , you know , a good leader is somewhere in the shade and {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: but uh then I I mus That's true . And there's uh one very important point .
Industrial Designer: Don't really .
Marketing: We're on time .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . And we also {disfmarker}
Marketing: Meetings finish when they have to or even before .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm . We made {disfmarker} Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: The {disfmarker} for meeting it's uh one of the most important thing .
User Interface: Of course . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . Mm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Not to waste time , that's important .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah , we have other {vocalsound} uh remote controls to create . {vocalsound}
User Interface: We need time f
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ah , we got new idea , speech recognition , location finding . New materials , new s uh this fancy strawberry design .
Project Manager: A lot of uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: New materials .
Marketing: Mm . {vocalsound} {gap} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , uh new ways of doing financial {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm , yeah . Hey ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And new tricks . {vocalsound}
Marketing: just wondering if my uh {disfmarker} what about the the pink {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the pinkness of that uh
Project Manager: Mm . Mm . They're working on um pink titanium . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} . They are working on a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ah , very {gap} .
Marketing: Okay , good .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Budget .
Marketing: I think we are great .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: There's no no other words for that . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} We are probably the best .
User Interface: Alright .
Project Manager: Mm yeah . Yeah ,
Marketing: Real Reaction is uh
Project Manager: we're really nice .
Marketing: {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Mm . {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Finished ?
Project Manager: I think it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah , celebration . Are the costs within the budget ?
Project Manager: Yeah . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Of course they are . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} How {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Is the project evaluated ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , it is .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah ,
Marketing: Yes , it is . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We got two {disfmarker}
User Interface: So , we see , we can even forecast . {gap} they propose us like celebration , everything ,
Industrial Designer: Good score .
User Interface: we could forecast it , right ?
Marketing: To whom ? To the whole our company ?
Project Manager: I'm the one , {vocalsound} proposing the celebration .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh , okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Of course ,
User Interface: You ? It was you .
Project Manager: you know I'm the program manager . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: So , let's celebrate . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So where we will go now ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Ah um ,
Industrial Designer: Uh , ye
Project Manager: I think it's finish .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think the meeting {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Will go to Italian restaurant , or {disfmarker}
Marketing: The meeting is over at least .
Project Manager: Yeah . Mm .
Industrial Designer: Ah , okay .
Marketing: So , we have to go out . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We can decide .
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And we go to the party . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
Project Manager: {gap} thank you to you . Mm .
| |
doc_5
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Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Are you sure I got it all {disfmarker} head's kinda small .
User Interface: How're we placed in terms of the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . {gap}
User Interface: alright .
Marketing: We're okay ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Guess I should probably try to sit up straight .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Like that ? Okay , cool .
Marketing: We're good ?
Industrial Designer: Oh , I think mine's fallen off .
User Interface: It fell {disfmarker} That's why .
Marketing: I guess it's gonna be hard to drink coffee .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh okay .
User Interface: Ah .
Project Manager: Okay ? {vocalsound} Right , so I'm just gonna start this PowerPoint real quick . Yeah , PowerPoint .
Industrial Designer: Wow .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Very official .
Project Manager: Yeah , well , you know , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah I kinda like this I'm kinda getting into it . Right . Um . So just to kick off the meeting basically um so we're working now for a real reaction , this is uh so it {vocalsound} right . Just got an agenda to set out what we're gonna try to accomplish in this particular first meeting . Um {vocalsound} We're gonna just do a quick opening and we can hopefully all get acquainted with one another um then we're gonna start {disfmarker} talk a little bit about tool training . Essentially that means getting used to the only thing that we haven't tried out yet , the whiteboard . {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} we've got a general plan for the project how we're gonna go about accomplishing this and then just a bit of discussion close up . Um I {gap} guess you know game or something um {vocalsound} in real life um so yeah basically I want to {disfmarker} I'm just gonna {disfmarker} you got {disfmarker} of course you can discuss that , I'm thinking about um {vocalsound} uh proposing that since we've got this weird blend of ourselves and our roles that we just don't ask , don't tell . {vocalsound} Um so um if you say something about marketing , right , sorted , um {vocalsound} y is
Marketing: {vocalsound} You're just gonna believe me ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: we'll go from there .
Project Manager: Exactly . Um I mean
Marketing: Fair enough .
Project Manager: obvi if if you guys {disfmarker} if if at the same time if you {disfmarker} like logically if something doesn't {disfmarker} like if I'm like we're gonna sell a remote control that's the size of this paper book you know um you say like well that doesn't seem like such a good idea because of X_ obviously go with it . I mean we'll discuss it but I'm not gonna ask do you know that or uh yeah it seems like
Marketing: Prove it
Project Manager: {vocalsound} yeah yeah exactly
Marketing: yeah , okay .
Project Manager: so , 'cause we're {disfmarker} what we're sort of role playing is y g yeah you're gonna tap into your own knowledge as well {vocalsound} um . And that's the same for your when we do introductions I mean um and you talk about your background you know have fun , you know maybe you went to um {vocalsound} uh you know maybe i you're like in Maine you went to U_C_S_B_ but you wanna say you went to Harvard or something like that , why not , you know
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you can {disfmarker} this is you know I guess we can have a little bit of fun with it . So are you guys okay with that does that seem logical ?
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah , that's fine .
User Interface: Sure .
Marketing: Works for me .
Project Manager: Sweet . Cool . So I guess that that {vocalsound} we're totally {disfmarker} we're making a remote control which is thrilling
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: um uh but the idea is that we can make something based on the whole corporate model I dunno if you guys had time to check the {disfmarker} in real life I dunno if you guys uh {vocalsound} checked the um {vocalsound} uh the corporate website . Um we've got to make something as fashionable as possible , that's kind of the corporate strategy is we're gonna try to take ordinary stuff that nobody really thinks about and try to make it nice you know like John Lewis nice or you know if you go to Debenham's or something . So um basically we are reinventing the wheel but we wanna try to do it in a user friendly um slick sleek kind of way . {vocalsound} Um way we're gonna go about doing that is basically at first we're gonna start on the basics . And that's where I'm gonna need you guys the User Interface Designers and the um {vocalsound} um the other designer that I can't remember ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: the the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ right um {vocalsound} the Industrial Designer
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: hey right on alright ,
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: getting into it um
Marketing: There you go .
Project Manager: to guide me and guide us on this project 'cause you're gonna be {disfmarker} you're g you guys are the bottom you know you're like no you can't do that you can't have you know X_ and Y_ um at the same time . And then um we'll work up from what is necessary to more like what would be good , you know like um {vocalsound} I I think you guys probably got the same emails I did but the idea of um , yes a coffee pot needs to be able to hold coffee but it's also better if it's not like really cheap glass so that it if you touch it you hurt your hand , or something like that . Um and so we'll work up from there and um then we'll meet on and talk about it and then finally we'll incorporate as kind of the last stage you know where you guys build or tell me {vocalsound} tell us what's possible and then you tell us what we can um hope for and what way to go take the the the take the basics and make it nicer and then ov obviously uh the U_I_D_ and the I_D_ you know you you can keep on the you know sort of at the cutting edge of how to get about maximising what is possible um to try t of sync it all up . So that's the detailed design . So it's a three stage kind of thing . Um right so for now just for th the white board um basically uh just to get used to it , I haven't tried it yet either um I'm just gonna start and um mm carry like five remotes around um and just write down {disfmarker} I'm just gonna write down one of the names of my um desert discs you know if you {disfmarker} if you were trapped on a desert island and you could only bring five C_D_s along with you name one of them that you could , not all five , if you wanna write all five go for it but name one of them that you could um . Oh , we skipped introductions . Nice . I'm a excellent Project Manager . Um .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm Marty ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um I went to uni at uh U_C_ Santa Barbara and I'm here working on a P_H_D_ in psychology . Um yeah . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: I'm Sarah , I went to Michigan , and I'm here doing cultural studies and I'm the Marketing Manager or something . Marketing ,
Project Manager: Expert {vocalsound}
Marketing: yeah Expert . Expert .
Project Manager: Don't play yourself down . Expert {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Fine . That's me .
User Interface: I'm Ron . I uh once upon a time studied in Victoria and I am the User Interface Designer .
Industrial Designer: I'm Nathan , I'm from California , and I'm here doing a Masters degree in social anthropology .
Project Manager: Where did you go to uni Nathan ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} U_C_L_A_ .
Project Manager: Oh brilliant . Cool . My little brother goes there .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Okay .
Project Manager: Right so desert island discs .
Marketing: So .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So do we have to wait for you to write it down or are you gonna tell us ?
Project Manager: Well I'll t i
Marketing: I'm waiting to know .
Project Manager: no no yeah I'm just gonna write a couple of 'em down . See I'm a big music fan I don't know if you guys are , I'm assuming everybody likes music to some lesser or greater extent
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but there's some other options , if you're a T_V_ slut
Marketing: Fair enough .
Project Manager: like I am like Smallville terrible television show
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but I happen to love it ,
Marketing: Oh , Smallville .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it's rubbish but I love it .
Marketing: I went to high school with Tom Willing actually .
Project Manager: T the the main c the main character ?
Marketing: The guy . Yeah .
Project Manager: Wow . Is he a wanker ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Very much so . Hell of a soccer player but a total bastard nonetheless .
Project Manager: He looks really tall , like he's gotta be like six six .
Marketing: Yeah . He is a big guy . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Um okay so {vocalsound} I really like Jeff Buckley . You guys heard of Jeff Buckley ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um that's cool 'cause like not very many people have . Um {vocalsound} and um oh well I might as well throw a British person in there um you can't go wrong with Radiohead .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's a r
Marketing: Good call .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay so it really works just like a pen only makes noises I think . It's kinda weird . Anyway
Marketing: Interesting .
Project Manager: yeah . Yeah , you're like press and it's {vocalsound} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Kinda cool .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You'll see . Alright so um
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: whoever wants to get up next , you can write down some telly that you watch or whatever you want .
Marketing: I guess I'll go next then .
Project Manager: Right on .
User Interface: Go for it .
Marketing: Okay . Don't wanna lose all my mikes , plugged in here . Okay . This is basically just pen practice huh ?
Project Manager: W
Marketing: Okay . Oh you're much taller than me so I'm gonna write down here . Um . Right now I'm listening to a lot of somebody nobody's ever heard of , Chris Bathgate ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: local Michigan folk singer ,
Project Manager: Nice .
Industrial Designer: Wow .
Marketing: really lame
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and uh uh what else did I bring with me ? Probably classical , to totally geek it out ,
Project Manager: Okay yeah yeah .
Marketing: yeah I think . And my family guy D_V_D_s
Project Manager: Well yeah .
Marketing: but we don't need to write that one down .
Project Manager: Oh , family guy . Isn't h has h
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: do you watch the new season ?
Marketing: No . Are you getting it online ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think I'm gonna start downloading it
Marketing: or is it on sky ?
Project Manager: yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , that'd be nice .
User Interface: Alright . Think I'm just gonna put down one uh one C_D_ . Anybody ?
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: No ? {gap} no ?
Marketing: 'Fraid not .
User Interface: Afro beat orchestra , very cool .
Project Manager: Afro beat orchestra ? Very cool . Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Sounds nice .
User Interface: Fift S
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: they like fifteen members from Brooklyn . Um and I'm hoping to go to the concert in Belgium , in Brussels in April first .
Project Manager: Wow .
Marketing: Exciting .
User Interface: Yeah . It's supposed to be in Brussels anyways .
Marketing: That'd be {gap} .
User Interface: Um thing I love about Edinburgh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh . I didn't even read those . Oops . I shouldn't admit that . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's what a PowerPoint presentation is for . It's they're designed specifically to ignore . I {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} th brilliant .
Industrial Designer: Oh , wow . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's the five by five , I can't read that much .
Project Manager: Ah yes yes yes okay I see that .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah
Project Manager: Vomit . Yes . {vocalsound}
Marketing: oh it's so horrible .
Project Manager: Street pizza .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Love um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's so brilliant . {vocalsound} I've seen more urine in this city than ever before ,
Marketing: Oh my God .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I just came from Glasgow
Project Manager: I mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: Seriously ?
User Interface: and I'm um happy to say that there's the {disfmarker} there's the same quantity approximately .
Industrial Designer: There's more vomit there .
User Interface: Um .
Project Manager: It's so minging .
User Interface: I w
Marketing: It really is {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh .
User Interface: Does uh yeah .
Industrial Designer: Alright . Yep .
User Interface: Ready ? Minging ? Nice .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I'm going local . Going local .
Marketing: Slide it in there . Yeah .
Project Manager: I have to be here for three years so I might as well get the terminology right .
Marketing: Yeah fair enough . I've already got more than I can keep track of . And I'm gonna go home next week and everyone's gonna be like oh my God you're turning into one of those people ,
Project Manager: Oh , have you been home yet ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: They'll be like , say something British ,
Marketing: no .
Project Manager: and you're like oh shut up family . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I know . I know .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh it should be interesting .
Industrial Designer: Let's see .
Marketing: Wait until I tell them I'm not coming back .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Right
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: They're gonna love that one .
Project Manager: you s you're gonna stay here ?
Marketing: Probably .
Project Manager: Wow .
Marketing: Or at least get a work visa for a while and then decide .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Nice .
Project Manager: Bad religion ?
Marketing: 'Cause {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's the music I grew up listening to .
Marketing: nice .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah , yeah .
Marketing: Of course .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And so there {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh , now I can think of so many other ones .
Project Manager: Well yeah that's why {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's how it works .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Something I miss about my hometown .
Project Manager: I miss coffee .
Industrial Designer: Burritos
Marketing: Mm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Burritos .
User Interface: Nice .
Industrial Designer: that cost less than eight Pounds . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh yeah two two bucks .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Any thing that are like free .
Project Manager: Where are you from in California by the way ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I grew up in San Diego ,
Project Manager: Did you really ? What part ?
Industrial Designer: but yeah um La Jolla , P_B_ {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah I'm from San Diego as well . Yeah oh man .
Marketing: Nice . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But really uh I last lived in San Francisco , I haven't lived in Cali well I haven't lived in southern California since I was eighteen .
Project Manager: Going to s like North Carol I'm sorry you you just can't get a better burrito than what's available in the s in San Diego .
Industrial Designer: It's different . 'Cause in San Diego th the tortillas are cooked on the grill and in northern California they steam them .
Marketing: It must make all the difference . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it really does .
Project Manager: Well it's it's {vocalsound} i there's other things too there's {disfmarker} you just can't place it
Marketing: Ah .
Project Manager: like I {disfmarker} when I went to school in the U_ {disfmarker} in Santa Barbara which is central California the Mexican food is okay , it's just not good like and yeah it's like two bucks ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: like literally two bucks for this massive {disfmarker} I miss
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: yeah good call on that .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Where you from in San Diego ?
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Um just literally just metropolitan San Diego , I live like five minutes from the zoo . So
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: North Park actually if you want to get real specific .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , my grandparents lived on um thirty second .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Close t uh do you know where Clare de Lune coffee shop is ,
Project Manager: Yes . On university ,
Industrial Designer: and
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Cafe Forte {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah it's actually like literally half a mile from my house .
Industrial Designer: Cool .
Project Manager: Yeah , pretty cool . Small world as we were discussing before .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Especially when we're all from the same general region . Right so okay , success on the whiteboard . You can harness the awesome power
Marketing: There you go .
Project Manager: a little bit introductions we talked about some of our C_D_s
Industrial Designer: Wow .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and things we like about the city you know , I think we'll {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um right so {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: moving on to not fun stuff {vocalsound} uh project finance .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um basically what we're trying to do is sell this remote for twenty five Euros . Um . {vocalsound} This is what the finance department has told me , the C_F_O_ but I don't know , I'm not sold on this , it's pretty dear , I mean twenty f that's like you know forty bucks for a remote . It would have to pretty much like do my laundry for me . Um so
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: what we can maybe work on that a later but we're gonna make a lot on it , the profit aims to make fifty million Euros on it . Eur internationally . So {vocalsound} um one of the things I I was gonna mention to you um you guys the designers is that um it m we probably need a rever it needs to be a universal remote control probably . Um so
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: something that could do N_T_S_C_ as well as PAL as well as various other formats like if it's gonna control D_V_D_s
Marketing: Makes sense .
Project Manager: but um you know
Marketing: Uh .
Project Manager: I'll leave that to you guys but that's something that i i it is gonna be an international sold thing . {vocalsound} Um but we wanna try to make it for twelve fifty . So we wanna try to make a hundred percent profit on it if we can . {vocalsound} Um s right so um just to close up , I'm not sure how much time I've used mm next time right Project Manager , sorted . Um . {vocalsound} Is uh we'll meet in another half an hour or so um {vocalsound} and I'd like the um Industrial Designer to get ge think about what needs to be done , like what the basic function of it . Um {vocalsound} U_I_D_ well yeah you right g your assignments are up there and you'll also get s assignments from {disfmarker} in your email as well more spec specifics on what do do . Um mm basic and um so I need you to tell us what um {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} what the user's gonna want .
Marketing: What they're looking for .
Project Manager: So actually in a way you guys c maybe in our next meeting chat a bit about what the user's gonna want and what the user can have , you know like uh so {disfmarker}
Marketing: And negotiate that . Uh .
Project Manager: yeah well it is {vocalsound} and we'll discuss the trade-offs in between um so yeah specific instructions will be sent in your email . But I think that that is more or less a good place to start for now um and as more things come up we'll have meetings and you'll get emails and so forth . Um any questions , before we get started ?
User Interface: I assume that we're building a stand alone uh remote control , we can't kind of build it into other uh products .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You mean to like {disfmarker}
User Interface: For instance like a mobile phone or something like that .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Sounds interesting .
Project Manager: Hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: I don't think there's any rules about it yet . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Maybe our personal coach will have something to say about that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Or or you know can we produ can we sell a remote control phone for twenty five pounds or less ?
Project Manager: Well , have a think about it .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: I mean
User Interface: Yep . Okay .
Project Manager: I'm I'm certainly op it seems like yeah it it seems like it's certainly do-able
Marketing: W yeah .
Project Manager: isn't it . I mean um or if we can't have a full mobile phone maybe a remote that has some other kind of {vocalsound} useful function .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: The clapper . No I mean {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: no , good idea , good idea . We'll see what {disfmarker} see what {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Maybe a remote with changeable faces , like the faces that you can buy for phones .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Nice . Hot . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I like the little cover thingies .
Project Manager: Uh-huh y I like that {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . That's true , I guess we we probably have some time , maybe we should brainstorm a bit like what we wanna do , go back to um {disfmarker} I don't really have any . Let me bring up something about our basic goals here , what we want to accomplish . Uh project announcement . Ts ts ts {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah . Not so much .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: All right we'll find them , we're on our own .
User Interface: Now are we also discussing kind of our initial ideas at all here ?
Project Manager: Yeah yeah let's do it , let's do .
User Interface: S does anybody have any initial ideas ?
Project Manager: I'm gonna go ahead and take notes on this too 'cause {disfmarker}
Marketing: Good idea . Start your minutes . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah I mean oh yeah right . {vocalsound} So initial ideas . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well it's pretty much given it's gonna be universal
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: right , we decided that already and it may be functioning for other things , as soon as you said that I was thinking like all the other things you could get a remote to do , like your microwave or your front door
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: or like to have everything on one thing ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but then , I've never been a fan of those huge remotes that have like a million buttons ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: S smaller's better .
Marketing: you can't tell what they do .
Industrial Designer: Simple .
User Interface: But {disfmarker} I'm thinking {disfmarker} I'm thinking kind of P_D_A_ uh design
Marketing: Yeah . Specific .
User Interface: so touch screen design rather than button
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Oh right . That'd be different .
User Interface: so that you can kind of flip around all sorts of different things .
Marketing: Interesting .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah that's slick
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: isn't it . I mean like {vocalsound} stylist {vocalsound} yeah like a just a
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: True .
Project Manager: yeah . Right so we got five minutes more to chat about this , perfect . Um so we've got this kind of an idea of a trade-off between um {vocalsound} uh size and functionality .
Marketing: Mm . Mm .
Project Manager: Um and we also {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right . We want it to be munt multifunctional but at the same time if you get it to do too much you're not gonna be able to tell them apart ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Too confusing .
Industrial Designer: It's gonna be too complicated , too crowded with buttons and things .
Project Manager: I'm also gonna note for future reference this idea
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: of um {vocalsound} so you {disfmarker} like {disfmarker} maybe like an L_ {disfmarker} like a touch screen type of remote ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Possibly .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: I don't think one exists .
Marketing: An interesting option .
Project Manager: Be a good idea .
Industrial Designer: Needs {disfmarker} it needs one outstanding feature to set it apart from all the other remotes .
Marketing: Yeah . Definitely .
Project Manager: Yeah all the other universal remotes . Um {vocalsound} I don't know if there's such a thing out there , I guess we could do some uh do some research on or one of us could do some research on it about whether or not there are um multi-format like um you know PAL , N_T_S_C_ , region one {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: I'm pretty sure there is .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: I mean I I have a friend who has a P_D_A_
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: that he just points at his telev any television he wants
Marketing: That {disfmarker}
User Interface: and it'll figure out the {vocalsound} the specifications of it
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: and will control it
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Interesting . Okay .
User Interface: um so
Marketing: Awesome .
User Interface: I th I assume that that can be done with uh kind of around the world .
Project Manager: Okay . Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um all right . So . I li I'm liking that idea , this idea of a touch screen remote with multi-format features . Um .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Um . {vocalsound} Let's see .
Industrial Designer: I think , making it out of a nice material would be very important , because so many of those remotes that you see , these universal remotes look so cheap and low quality .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah . Keeping it nice and slick , would be important . And {disfmarker} I don't know , like , there's such a problem with losing them ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: that adding this whole like P_D_A_ pen business is only one more thing to lose ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: so we're gonna have to be careful with what like {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh .
Marketing: Just something like keep in mind when we start actually dealing with this stuff but that would be really cool .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh let's see . Um .
User Interface: I like the idea of the uh multi plate .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah yeah okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} In in
Marketing: Fi b like what are they called , those face plate things ?
Project Manager: Think they're just called face plates ?
Marketing: Isn't there a name for them ?
Project Manager: I don't know .
Industrial Designer: {gap} something ,
Marketing: Are they ? I dunno .
Industrial Designer: uh we'll have to come up with a name ,
User Interface: I like .
Industrial Designer: patent it .
User Interface: We should c we should come up with a fuzzy one as well .
Marketing: Yeah . Something really cool .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Leopard print or something . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} For those cold winter days . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Leopard print . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: I think , it wouldn't be such a bad idea to have a like a locator device , maybe a simple button that you have on your television to help you find your remote .
Marketing: True .
Project Manager: Mm . But if we're bundling it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} unless we're selling their telly with the remote .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Well if we bundle it as a phone then you can always call it .
Industrial Designer: True .
User Interface: If you're not doing that then we can have something that just kind of rings from either {disfmarker}
Marketing: True .
User Interface: well there used to be those whistling devices but that's a little bit annoying .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Cou could we not do something where like just a little lit like literally just a very small kind of thing that comes with the remote that you could place something else that you press and it makes the remote page . Kinda like how on a lot of um {vocalsound} uh cordless regular phones , you have a page button and it goes {vocalsound} ,
User Interface: Th
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: could we do something like that ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think so .
User Interface: That's cool .
Marketing: Probably .
User Interface: I think we could design into that . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Good .
Project Manager: Um yeah {vocalsound} I think this material quality as well like I guess what we can think about what kind of um uh you know Apple 's been really successful with this surgical white kind of business or this sleek kind of
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
Project Manager: you know {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: And that titanium the new silver sleek ones that's last couple of years , very much so .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Curves .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: We do have the minimum am amount I mean we were talking finances I dunno , selling a a forty Pound remote would h or a forty Dollar remote , twenty five Euro remote would be pretty {disfmarker} you know it's pretty expensive
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: so maybe we might wanna trade off some of the features for a lower price . Without without getting into that whole like you know go down to bargain store remote you know bargain store universal remote
Marketing: {vocalsound} Right .
Project Manager: that's black and you know m massive ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: some kind of I dunno a balance there in somewhere .
Marketing: Mm . Definitely .
Project Manager: But um have a think about what we can do , have a think about what we want to do , how we're gonna sell it
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: and um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Or if you our users in mind , like these {disfmarker} grandmas are not gonna be into this whole new let's design , no it's {disfmarker} they're used to the buttons so we'll have to be careful of exactly who we're marketing this to ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: and who we're gonna be able to get it out of . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: 'S true .
Marketing: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: We're talking twenty five Pounds or twenty five Euros ?
Project Manager: Twenty five Euros .
Marketing: Euros .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Slight difference I guess .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} They're all weaker than {disfmarker} they're all stronger than the Dollar . Although , computer parts , all {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: if you're gonna upgrade your computer , buy it in the States . Like um do you guys know Fry's ? Huge computer uh electronics store ?
User Interface: No .
Marketing: Mm-mm .
Project Manager: They serve um {disfmarker} right they sa tha s they will sell things overseas so you can buy stuff in America
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: and have it shipped over for like twenty thirty Pounds about . Right so um let's go ahead and wrap that up here for now , I'm gonna put these initial ideas that we've got in the um {vocalsound} project documents , so if you guys wa need a reminder about what we've talked about um the different you know kind of trade-offs that we've got and the other ideas , you can consult them at your leisure .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: And uh right so thanks for that . Let's just uh head back to work on what we were talking about bef uh goi h h getting into .
Marketing: With half an hour ?
Project Manager: Um . Yes .
Marketing: 'Kay . Perfect .
Project Manager: Thanks guys .
Marketing: Cool .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
User Interface: Thank you .
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The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): We'll call this meeting to order. Welcome to the fifth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Pursuant to the order passed on Monday, April20, the committee is meeting today to consider ministerial announcements, to allow members of the committee to present petitions, and to question ministers, including the Prime Minister, about the COVID-19 pandemic. Tomorrow, May8, Dr.AndreaMcCrady, Dominion Carillonneur, will give a special recital to mark the 75th anniversary of Victory in Europe Day. Victory in Europe Day, VE Day, commemorates the formal acceptance of Germany's surrender by allied forces at the end of the Second World War. While the pandemic prevents us from gathering to celebrate in person, tomorrow at noon the voice of our nation will ring out in remembrance of this milestone in our history. Today's meeting is taking place by video conference. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee. I would like to remind members that, as in the House of Commons or committee, they should not take photos of their colleagues or film the proceedings. In order to facilitate the work of the interpreters and to allow the meeting to proceed smoothly, I would ask you to follow some instructions. The video conference will be interpreted as in normal meetings of committees and in the House. In the lower part of your screen, you can choose the language: floor, English or French. Please wait until I call on you by name before you begin to speak. When you are ready to speak, click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone, or hold the space bar down while you are speaking. If you release the bar, your microphone will revert to mute, just like a walkie-talkie. Honourable members, I would like to remind you that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel. If you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Please direct your remarks through the chair. Should you need to request the floor outside of your designated speaking time, you should activate your mike and state that you have a point of order. If a member of the committee wishes to intervene on a point of order raised by another person, you should use the raised hand function to indicate to the chair that you wish to speak. To do this, click on the participant button at the bottom of your screen. When the list appears, you will see the raised hand option beside your name. Speak slowly and clearly at all times. When you are not speaking, leave your microphone on mute. It is highly recommended that you use a headset with a microphone. You have to remember to switch languages. Should any technical challenges arise, for example, in relation to interpretation, please advise the chair immediately by raising a point of order, and the technical team will work on resolving them. Please note that we may need to suspend during these times in order to correct a problem. I want to remind the honourable members to mute their microphones when they are not speaking. If you get accidentally disconnected, please try to rejoin the meeting with the information you used to join initially. If you are unable to rejoin, please contact our technical support team. Before we get started, please note that in the top right-hand corner of your screen is a button that you can use to change views. Speaker view allows you to focus on the person currently speaking; gallery view allows you to see a larger number of participants. You can click through the multiple pages in the gallery view to see who is on and how many more participants there are. I understand there are no ministerial announcements today. We will now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. In addition, to ensure a petition is considered properly presented, the certificate of the petition and each page of the petition for a petition certified in a previous Parliament should be mailed to the committee no later than 6 p.m. the day before. Now we'll go to presenting petitions. Mr. Genuis.
Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Mr. Chair, five years ago when Parliament passed Bill C-14, then justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould said that it represented a finely tuned balance between access and safeguards. It also included a five-year review. Petitioners on the first petition I'm presenting are very concerned to see Bill C-7 before Parliament, which removes safeguards ahead of that five-year review. Petitioners specifically mention their concerns about the removal of the mandatory 10-day reflection period, which can already be waived in certain circumstances. They are concerned about reducing the number of witnesses required to oversee it and ensure that a request has been properly made. I commend that petition to the consideration of the House. The second and final petition that I will be presenting today is with respect to Senate Bill S-204. This would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ from a person who did not consent. This responds specifically to concerns about organ harvesting in the People's Republic of China involving Falun Gong practitioners and increasing concerns that this is being or about to be applied to Uighurs as well. Canada can and should take action on this. Petitioners are noting that in the previous Parliament there were bills on this, Bill C-350 and Bill S-240. Now, in this Parliament there is a bill, Bill S-204, and the petitioners hope that this 43rd Parliament will be the one that gets it passed.
The Chair: We will go to Ms. May.
Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's an honour. This is my first occasion to present a petition in our virtual format of the COVID-19 committee. Thank you to you and your staff, Mr. Chair, for developing a system that allows us to present petitions electronically. The petition I am presenting today, which was previously approved, is from a number of constituents who are concerned that we pursue the Paris Agreement to hold the global average temperature increase to no more than 1.5C. The Paris Agreement itself embeds in it the concept of Just Transition with a capital J and a capital T, the concept of just transition ensuring fairness and support for all workers in the fossil fuel sector. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to move forward with an act to ensure just transition and to ensure adequate funding so that workers and communities dependent on the fossil fuel sector receive meaningful support to ensure security in their lives in the transition to more sustainable energy use. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The Chair: Those are all the petitions for today. I want to thank the honourable members for their usual collaboration and now we'll go on to
Mr. James Bezan (SelkirkInterlakeEastman, CPC): On a point of order, Mr. Chair, on Tuesday, at our COVID-19 committee of the whole meeting, I was asking a question which started at 12:56:06 and was cut off at 1:00:32, so I still have 34 seconds of time remaining in my question time of five minutes. You said it could be no more than five minutes but that I had up to five minutes. Thirty-four seconds leaves a lot of time to have a quick question and a quick response. If you believe that my time was unjustly cut off and that it was unfair treatment of the official opposition when we were raising our points of order, I would ask that the 34 seconds be tacked on to the opening round for the opposition and credited to Rosemarie Falk, who will be leading off for the Conservatives.
The Chair: Normally what happens is the chair uses judgment, and with 35 seconds, there isn't enough time obviously for a full question or answer, most of the time. I'll take it under advisement. I can't allot it. I want everyone to know that I do have a timer next to me and I am timing the questions, and I will be treating the answers the same way. If it's a 25-second question, it will be a 25-second answer. Thank you for bringing that up. I believe that issue has been remedied. We've taken a little bit of the chair's ability to give judgment on it, but it will be from now on. Thank you.
Mr. James Bezan: Mr. Chair, 34 seconds is a considerable amount of time to do a short question and a short answer.
The Chair: I appreciate the advice. Thank you, Mr. Bezan. We'll now proceed to the questioning of ministers. I would like to remind the honourable members that no member will be recognized for more than five minutes at a time and that members may split their time with one or more members by so indicating to the chair. Ministers responding to the questions should do so by simply turning on their microphone and speaking. Our first questioner is Ms. Falk.
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC): Mr. Chair, yesterday, Elizabeth May and the leader of the separatists declared oil to be dead. It's certainly not dead, but it's dying under the Trudeau government. Will the Prime Minister stand up for Canada's energy workers, or does he agree with the fringe left and those who want to destroy our country?
Ms. Elizabeth May: I have a point of order.
The Chair: Go ahead, Ms. May.
Ms. Elizabeth May: Mr. Chair, I believe that the language that the honourable member just used is unparliamentary
Mr. Garnett Genuis: That's not a point of order.
Ms. Elizabeth May: We can have differences of opinion, but it is absolutely Some hon. members: Debate. Ms. Elizabeth May: unacceptable and violates my privileges to An hon member: Debate. Ms. Elizabeth May: No, it's not debate. I would ask the chair to rule on that, not the member from the Conservative Party. It is unacceptable to assert that anyone who wants to make a point about our economy is trying to destroy the country. This allegation is a violation of my privilege. An hon. member: She was also named by the
The Chair: Order. I didn't recognize anyone. I don't know who is speaking, so I'll just start talking myself. I want to remind honourable members to have respect in their questions and in their answers. When you refer to someone, please refer to them respectfully. This is a committee of the House, and I would expect no less of the honourable members. We'll go to the right honourable Prime Minister. You have 16 seconds.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. As I pointed out this morning in my press conference, we cannot move forward on a transformation of our energy sector without supporting the workers in that energy sector. We need their innovation and we need their hard work if we are going to lower our emissions, if we are going to reach our
The Chair: We'll go to Ms. Falk again.
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Mr. Chair, it has been 43 days since the finance minister promised Canada's energy sector liquidity through the Business Development Bank of Canada. For 43 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on that promise. These delays cost jobs and they are costing us Canadian businesses. If the government doesn't step up to support our energy sector, they are in effect doubling down on their support for foreign, unethically sourced oil. Mr. Chair, when will the credit options be available to Canada's small and medium energy firms?
The Chair: I want to remind honourable members that we do have interpreters who are listening and translating. In consideration to them, please speak at a reasonable pace so that they can understand and then translate. The right honourable Prime Minister.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, from the very beginning, our priority through this pandemic and this crisis has been to support workers across the country. We have sent billions of dollars to workers right across the country, including Alberta, Saskatchewan, B.C., and Newfoundland and Labrador in the energy sector for them to be able to support their families through this difficult time. We are also working on sectoral supports right across the country. Those will be announced in due course. Our focus from the get-go has been
The Chair: We'll move to Ms. Falk.
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Mr. Chair, another group that has been ignored by the Liberals is our farmers. The announcements to date fall well short of what is needed to maintain a steady supply of affordable and healthy food. The Canadian Federation of Agriculture has asked the government for a $2.6-billion emergency fund. Instead of responding to specific COVID-19 challenges, our farmers are facing the Liberals' reannounced $125 million that was already budgeted in the AgriRecovery program. Will the Prime Minister finally step up and take our food supply chain seriously, or is agriculture just an afterthought for him?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: On the contrary, Mr. Chair, we take agriculture and our agricultural sector extremely seriously, which is why we announced hundreds of millions of dollars a couple of days ago to respond to pressing needs. We will continue to make investments to ensure both the safety of workers in our agricultural sector and the safety of our communities, as well as the continued flow of high-quality Canadian food onto our tables right across the country. Supporting the people who produce our food is a priority for this government and will continue to be.
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Well, Mr. Chair, recycled program announcements do not respond to the immediate needs facing our farmers. This is absolutely unacceptable. Our farmers are faced with rising operational costs, a disrupted service industry, labour shortages and a reduced capacity at processing plants. The government has a responsibility to take domestic food security seriously. When will the Prime Minister deliver adequate support to address the critical changes facing our ag industry?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, I would suggest respectfully that the honourable member take a look once again at the announcement we made, which actually highlights significant new investments to support our agricultural industry. I certainly agree that there is more to do. Every step of the way in this unprecedented situation, we've been moving forward on doing more, on adjusting and on investing more. We need to support our agricultural sector and the people who work so hard to put food on Canadians' tables right across the country and we will continue to.
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Mr. Chair, Canadians expect to find healthy and affordable food at their grocery stores, but if the government does not take action now, that's not a given. Our farmers are trying to keep Canadians fed while keeping their heads above water. The Liberal government's own failed federal carbon tax is weighing them down. It is an enormous hit to their bottom line, and the recent carbon tax hike is taking even more money out of the pockets of farmers at a time when they can afford it the least. Will the Prime Minister exempt all farm operations from the carbon tax and reimburse the money that they have already taken from them?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, it's a shame to hear the member opposite accidentallyunintentionally, I'm certainmislead the House and Canadians. The price on pollution actually puts more money into Canadians' pockets, and that includes farm families. People who pay the cost of the price on pollution on average receive more money back. This is the way of creating a better future for our kids and grandkids, which I know people in communities right across the country, including our farm communities, want to see happen. We are moving forward in a responsible way to put a price on pollution and put more money in average Canadians' pockets.
The Chair: We now continue with Mrs.Gill. Mrs.Gill, you have the floor.
Mrs. Marilne Gill (Manicouagan, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. As you know, all sectors of the economy are fragile at the moment, specifically the fisheries. I am thinking about the lobster fishery in the Magdalen Islands, the crab fishery on the Cte-Nord or those fishing for herring in the south of the Gasp. Because imports have ceased, because the domestic market is weak and in decline because of the interruption of the tourism and restaurant industries, the fishing industry and its fishers must be supported. I would like to know what the government has done to support our fishers since the crisis began.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Our fishers do exceptional work that is extremely important in feeding Canadians and in contributing to our economic success through their exports around the world. This crisis has struck them very hard. That is why we have established measures in the tens of millions of dollars to support our processors. We have also announced help for the fishers. We know that these are difficult and unprecedented times, and we are going to
Mrs. Marilne Gill: My thanks to the Prime Minister. I am actually talking about help for the fishers. I know about the processing industry and the $62.5million to be used essentially for freezing products, but I am talking about the fishers themselves. Given the economic situation, most of our fishers are getting ready to leave. First, there are health risks. We know very well that it is impossible for them to observe all the social distancing measures. They have to incur additional expenses in order to conduct their normal fishing activities. In addition, they feel that they will be losing money, because of the drop in the price of their resource. They are just as essential as farmers, but they are going to have to work at a loss and they are not going to have workers to assist them. Workers in the seasonal industry do not know what tomorrow will bring. They do not even know whether they will be able to put food on the table next year. Are you going to do anything else, in addition to the assistance of $62.5million? Time is of the essence. Our fishers have lacked certainty for weeks and they are very concerned.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Yes, indeed, we are going to do other things. Other investments will be made in various sectors in order to support Canadians. We recognize the challenges that fishers must face in terms of social distancing and of work that is often seasonal. We are going to continue working with the industry, with the fishers, and with the coastal communities in order to ensure that people have confidence in their abilities and in their future. In times of crisis, it is important for the government to be there to support people, and that is exactly what we are going to continue to do. This is an unprecedented crisis, but we can see once more that Canadians are there for each other. Our government will continue to be there for the fishers and the fishing industry.
Mrs. Marilne Gill: I would have preferred us to be there from the start. Clearly, this is a difficult crisis. But, given the cyclical nature of the industry, some sectors have had to postpone for several weeks the preparations they need for fishing activities. The current program could be modified in a number of ways, to accommodate the cycle, the dates, and the size of the companies. They would really like to take advantage of the $40,000loan, but they cannot because of their payroll. Given the dates, they are also ineligible for the 75%salary subsidy. I can already suggest a number of solutions to the government and to the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, that would bring help to those businesses very quickly. The fishers carry on, because it is a duty for them, because they want to help us and to be part of the effort at this time of crisis. At the same time, they have no guarantee that they will be supported. I would really like to hear a guarantee that they will be supported, that they will be able to put food on the table this year, and that they will be able to support the communities that often depend on the fishing industry, a major industry in those communities.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Minister Jordan has been working with the fishers, the fishing industry and the communities affected by the crisis since the crisis began. We are assessing a number of solutions. We have proposed various solutions to support the communities, the workers and the families. This is an unprecedented situation. From the outset, our priority has been to support the millions of Canadians from coast to coast who have lost their jobs. We have been able to do so, but we are going to continue to work for those who must now face difficulties. We are going to be there for each other. That is what people are expecting from our government and from other Canadians.
The Chair: Before we move to the next question, I would like to remind members of the committee to speak slowly, and to address their remarks to the chair and not directly to each other. Thank you very much. We will now go to Mr. Bachrach.
Mr. Taylor Bachrach (SkeenaBulkley Valley, NDP): Mr. Chair, municipalities across Canada are facing a financial crisis. They've seen revenues plummet, and at the same time the cost of delivering municipal services has risen. As the Prime Minister knows, municipalities are unable to run deficits and so they are facing the reality of cutbacks and serious cuts to the services that Canadians depend on. We know that municipalities are vital during this time to provide services to Canadians. They're going to be even more important during the recovery, especially when it comes to delivering on the infrastructure programs before us. The Federation of Canadian Municipalities and mayors across Canada have called for emergency financial relief for the municipal sector. My question for the Prime Minister is, when can they expect federal financial support to arrive?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, no government in Canada's history has done more to work with our municipalities, with our cities, with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities to respond to the challenges they're facing and to partner with them. Things from infrastructure to investments have made a huge difference right across the country in the quality of life of Canadians in towns, large and small, from coast to coast to coast. As I'm sure the member well knows, our Constitution requires that most of the funding for municipalities flow through the provinces. We are working with the provinces, as we continue to work with the cities, to ensure that we're able to support this order of government that delivers the vast majority of services to Canadians with very little financial means. We know how difficult it is for our cities. We will continue
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Bachrach.
Mr. Taylor Bachrach: Mr. Chair, it would seem that the federal government has the fiscal capacity and the responsibility to help municipalities weather this crisis. Transit systems have been hit particularly hard and have seen the bulk of the layoffs in the municipal sector. These transit services carry essential workers to work, whether they are health care workers, grocery store workers, janitors or others. The risk is that we will see higher fares to deal with this financial crisis. We will see service cutbacks precisely at a time when we want to be expanding transit and improving transit in our communities. Does the Prime Minister acknowledge that the federal government needs to step in to safeguard and protect Canada's transit services?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, this federal government recognizes how important it is to support all Canadians, which is why we put forward unprecedented measures to help millions upon millions of Canadians with the CERB and with the wage subsidy. We will continue to work with the provinces, which have jurisdiction over the municipalities. I'll be having a conversation with all other first ministers tonight to talk about a broad range of issues. I can highlight that the issue of transit funding has come up. We have continued to engage with them, but again, it is important to respect the Constitution and understand that funding for municipalities and cities does go through the provinces. The federal government is happy to be there to support, but it must be
The Chair: We will go to Mr. Bachrach again.
Mr. Taylor Bachrach: Mr. Chair, I am wondering how the Prime Minister could explain to a bus driver in Vancouver who has been laid off that as a public sector worker, she can't access the federal wage subsidy, while an equivalent worker in the airline industry gets to keep her job with the federal help of that program. Could the Prime Minister explain how that is fair?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, I'm happy to explain to the member and to all Canadians that our Constitution creates federal areas of jurisdiction and provincial areas of jurisdiction. The airline industry, like banking, like telecommunications, is a federal area of jurisdiction that we have been able to move forward on. More than that, we brought the Canada emergency response benefit and the wage subsidy to all industries across this country, because we knew that as the federal government, it was something that we needed to step up on
The Chair: We will go back to Mr. Bachrach.
Mr. Taylor Bachrach: Mr. Chair, I'd like to shift gears a little bit. Faced with minimal health care capacity, remote indigenous communities in my riding are taking matters into their own hands. The Nuxalk have put up a checkpoint on Highway 20 to protect community members and prevent non-essential travel. In particular, it is to protect the three remaining fluent speakers of the Nuxalk language, these cherished elders in their community. The Haida on Haida Gwaii have set up a similar checkpoint, as have communities throughout British Columbia, yet federal support for indigenous communities amounts to only $39 million for all of the indigenous communities in B.C. Does the Prime Minister not agree that more support is warranted to help indigenous communities in my riding and across the country?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, from the very beginning, we made funds available to Canadians right across the country, particularly people in indigenous remote or northern communities who we knew would be facing more difficult challenges because of the existing vulnerabilities in their health care system and socio-economic circumstances. We have made unprecedented investments and we will continue to make the necessary investments, because we need to make sure that indigenous Canadians, and indeed all Canadians, have the supports they need to make it through this crisis.
The Chair: We will continue with Mr.Berthold. Mr.Berthold, you have the floor.
Mr. Luc Berthold (MganticL'rable, CPC): Thank you very much, Mr.Chair. I am going to keep talking about the area of jurisdiction that the Prime Minister likes to talk about, except that I want to point out the incompetence of the Liberals in keeping their commitments on infrastructure projects. My question is very simple. As the provinces gradually restart their economies, can the Prime Minister tell us how many projects that the provinces have submitted are waiting for approval from his government?
Mr. Luc Berthold: Mr.Chair, I hope that the length of the pause will not be taken out of my time.
The Chair: No, I stopped the clock for your time. Ms.McKenna, you have the floor.
Hon. Catherine McKenna (Minister of Infrastructure and Communities): I'm sorry, Mr.Chair, I was on mute. I'm very pleased with how we are working with the provinces and territories. I have spoken with all of my provincial and territorial counterparts over the last couple of weeks. Work on our historic infrastructure program is progressing well. My department has worked very hard to approve projects, and we will continue to do so. It is very important to build projects that will create good jobs
The Chair: We are returning to Mr.Berthold.
Mr. Luc Berthold: We still haven't had a response. How many projects are currently awaiting government approval? I know that the minister has been meeting virtually with the provinces over the last few days. However, there are still hundreds of projects waiting for approval from the Liberal government. Rather than wait for the right political opportunity to approve these files, will the minister commit today to respecting the provinces and approving by next week all the projects that are sitting on her desk?
Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr.Chair, I'm pleased with how we are working with the provinces and territories. We are approving projects. If the hon. member speaks to the provinces and territories, he will see how well we are working together. We will announce the approval of projects because it's very important for our economy, our communities and creating good jobs.
Mr. Luc Berthold: Does the minister understand that she hasn't told us how many projects are still pending? The construction season is very short. Approval of a project in July means that work can't begin until next year, which won't help revive our economy.
Hon. Catherine McKenna: I want to make it clear that we have approved hundreds of projects in the last few weeks. We will work with the provinces, territories, municipalities and indigenous communities to implement these projects. These projects are important for the economy and the environment, as well as for jobs
The Chair: We return now to Mr.Berthold.
Mr. Luc Berthold: Mr.Chair, while the minister is calling for a green recovery of the country's economy, public transit is at risk. Physical distancing measures will cause public transit use to drop for several months. The Union des municipalits du Qubec estimates that the monthly losses are between $75million and $100million. Other countries have included public transit in pandemic relief programs. Why isn't Canada?
Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr.Chair, we recognize the importance of public transit for our economy, since some essential workers use public transit. We are working very closely with our counterparts and are listening to the municipalities. As the Prime Minister said, it's the provinces that must help because the money
The Chair: We return now to Mr.Berthold.
Mr. Luc Berthold: Mr.Chair, once again, what we're hearing is that the government is passing the buck to the provinces. Unfortunately, the minister was unable to answer a single question about the number of infrastructure projects still on the federal government's desk, which is very important. Several large municipalities are waiting for the approval of projects. Moreover, public transit systems are facing an extremely serious financial crisis. Ridership in most systems is down 85%to90%. The Federation of Canadian Municipalities is asking for help for small communities, as well as large municipalities. Why is the federal government ignoring the municipalities in the Canadian Federation of Municipalities at this time?
Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr.Chair, I can reassure the hon. member that we are working very closely with the municipalities. We are listening to the municipalities to find out what their issues are and how we can support them. Of course, we need the help of the provinces and territories. In terms of the number of projects that we've approved, I would be happy to inform the hon. member of the exact number of all the approved projects that my department has been working very hard on over the past few months to approve projects to go forward.
Mr. Luc Berthold: Mr.Chair, do I have any time left?
The Chair: No, your time is up. We'll now go on to Mr. Fast.
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. This question is directed to the Minister of Foreign Affairs. On March 28, the minister personally tweeted out a thank you to the People's Republic of China for donating PPE to Canada. This tweet happened within three hours of China's announcement of that gift. As it turned out, much of the PPE was defective and could not be used. More recently, Taiwan donated half a million surgical masks to Canada, yet here we are, two weeks later, and the minister has yet to personally thank Taiwan for its generosity. Will the minister now thank this free and democratic country for its generous gift to Canadians?
Hon. Franois-Philippe Champagne (Minister of Foreign Affairs): Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank my colleague for the question. Indeed, we are very grateful to every nation for helping Canada. This is a global pandemic that knows no borders. We have been expressing our thanks to many nations that have contributed. We will continue to do so. It is important in a time of pandemic, Mr. Chair, that we not play politics and that humanity comes together. I can say, after my COVID foreign ministers call, that the world community has come together to make sure that supply chains will remain intact and that we will have transit hubs and air bridges. We will continue to work with every nation when it comes to health. This is a public good. We want to work together with everyone.
The Chair: We will go back to Mr. Fast now.
Hon. Ed Fast: Well, Mr. Chair, I didn't hear a thank you there, so I'm going to try again. On May 4, the Government of Taiwan delivered 25,000 surgical masks to the Government of British Columbia. On hand were B.C. Minister of Citizens' Services Anne Kang and Minister of State for Child Care Katrina Chen, who, as ministers, officially thanked the Government of Taiwan for its donation. Again, will the minister now do the right thing and, on behalf of Canadians, recognize the generosity of Taiwan and thank its government for that timely donation?
Hon. Franois-Philippe Champagne: Mr. Chair, as I said to you before, Canada is grateful to all who have given supplies to Canada. This is a common endeavour. We are thankful. We are grateful to every nation and we will continue to be. As I said, when it comes to global health, when it comes to helping each other, I think it is a duty for all to come together. We are grateful and thankful for all those who have agreed to help Canada and Canadians from coast to coast to coast in times of need. I've repeated that and have said many times in many forums that we are grateful and thankful to all of those who are helping Canada.
Hon. Ed Fast: Well, Mr. Chair, again there was no specific thank you to Taiwan. The Government of Taiwan has been the world leader in successfully fighting the COVID-19 pandemic. We have a lot to learn from them and their response. Sadly, the People's Republic of China continues to oppose Taiwan's membership in the World Health Organization. Will the minister now do the right thing and assure Canadians that he will fully support efforts to grant Taiwan membership in the World Health Organization?
Hon. Franois-Philippe Champagne: Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the member. As a former trade minister, he's very well aware of Canada's one China policy. That said, we support Taiwan to continue meaningful participation in international multilateral forums, particularly when it comes to health. This is a global good, and we want to support every nation. We recognize that Taiwan and others have been doing very well in fighting this pandemic. We also believe that Taiwan's role as an observer in the World Health Assembly meeting is of interest to the international health community and we have been supportive of that.
Hon. Ed Fast: Mr. Chair, I'm going to pivot to repatriation flights. The minister has publicly said that over 20,000 stranded Canadians have been repatriated from abroad. Can he tell us exactly how many Canadians remain abroad who have expressed a desire to be repatriated?
Hon. Franois-Philippe Champagne: Yes, Mr. Chair, I am very happy to update members. As of today, we have repatriated more than 20,000 Canadians on 232 flights from 87 countries. I would say that this is team Canada, and it knows no parties. Many members have written to me to make sure that we take care. It's not an exact science. We have, as I said, repatriated thousands and thousands. We continue, because we know there are still pockets of Canadian travellers who are stranded abroad. As the Prime Minister and I have said from the beginning, we will make our best effort to repatriate everyone who wants to come back home during the crisis.
The Chair: We'll go on to Mr. Moore now.
Hon. Rob Moore (Fundy Royal, CPC): Mr. Chair, Canadians need to have faith in their justice system, even in a time of crisis. My office has received correspondence from Canadians concerned that trial delays due to COVID-19 may result in criminals walking free. As this government has been working overtime to criminalize law-abiding citizens with new and useless gun laws, will the Minister of Justice ensure that real criminals will not walk free as a result of delays in the justice system?
Hon. David Lametti (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada): Mr. Chair, I thank the honourable member for his question. We have been working with my provincial counterparts across Canada, as well as with the various federal courts and also, through my provincial counterparts, with the superior courts and courts of appeal across Canada. Each particular jurisdiction has taken measures to ensure that basic essential services within the court system are maintained, through a variety of means, and we believe that we will be able to solve these various challenges.
Hon. Rob Moore: Mr. Chair, the regional relief and recovery fund was announced weeks ago as a way to help small and medium-sized businesses in rural communities, like those in my riding. In Atlantic Canada, these funds were to be distributed to the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency. This is yet another announcement with no details from this Liberal government. Can the minister clarify whether we are days away or weeks away from this support flowing to the businesses that need it so desperately?
Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages): Mr. Chair, I had the chance to talk with many of the chambers of commerce and business owners throughout Atlantic Canada, and we hear their anxiety. That's why ACOA's doing great work on the ground to make sure we can help them through this very difficult period. The member is right. We have increased the budget of ACOAgood newsand I'll be coming up with the details very soon. It will be a pleasure to collaborate with him to make sure that we can help many businesses and business owners across the Atlantic region.
Hon. Rob Moore: Mr. Chair, my office has heard from many small business owners who have reached out to me. I know many have reached out to many of my colleagues and probably to all of us here today. They are frustrated by the eligibility requirements for some of the federal programs. In particular, they are unable to access the emergency business account, because they do not have a payroll. This could be the hair salon in my riding that subcontracts out its chairs. There are hundreds and thousands of small businesses in this very situation, vital small businesses in our communities, but they do not meet this requirement. These businesses, many of them, are weeks away from shutting down permanently. What does the Minister of Finance have to say to these small businesses that are suffering right now?
Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade): Mr. Chair, I want to thank my honourable colleague for that really important question. I want all the businesses that he is talking about and all of them throughout the country to know that we continue to work very hard to make sure they're supported through this difficult period. More work needs to be done, and we will continue to do that work. We know that businesses are being supported through getting access to the wage subsidy to keep their employees together, and they're getting help, whether it's with rent or to defray costs by deferring GST and HST or customs duty payments. We're going to continue to work with all our businesses across the country.
The Chair: We'll go to Mr. Moore for a brief question. You have less than 20 seconds, please.
Hon. Rob Moore: Mr. Chair, it's a very specific issue. There are small businesses, thousands of them, that do not have a payroll. Some have a personal account that they've dealt with over the years rather than a business account, and that makes them ineligible. These businesses need help right now.
Hon. Mary Ng: I agree with the honourable member. Those businesses absolutely need support from us. We are going to keep working to ensure they are supported.
The Chair: We'll go to Mr. Cumming next.
Mr. James Cumming (Edmonton Centre, CPC): Mr. Chair, small businesses are concerned about their ability to survive, and no amount of deferrals, loans or subsidies can substitute for their need to be open and servicing their customers. Can the government confirm that a sectoral risk analysis has taken place to assist the provinces in reopening the economy?
Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry): Mr. Chair, I can assure the member that we've been very clear in terms of our strategy around reopening the economy. We need to make sure that we follow the advice of the experts and the health authorities to do so in a manner that does not compromise the health and well-being of Canadians. We of course will have a sectoral lens, and as you can see by some of the initiatives and the support packages we've put forward
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Cumming now.
Mr. James Cumming: Mr. Chair, thousands of business owners make a living and utilize dividends as their salary. They also use independent contractors. Can the government confirm that the programs currently in place will be expanded to these hard-working Canadians?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we continue to work with all of our small businesses and I want to thank him for raising this very important issue. I want to assure our Canadian small businesses that we are going to continue to do this work to make sure they are supported.
Mr. James Cumming: Can the minister give me a date when she will be able to announce to these businesses that they will be eligible?
Hon. Mary Ng: I want to assure our Canadian small businesses of their importance and of the importance of their contributions to all of our communities. I want them to know that we continue to listen and that we will ensure that they are supported and continue to be supported during this difficult time.
Mr. James Cumming: Minister, they need more than assurance. Can you give me a date when I can tell these thousands of businesses they will be supported if they pay dividends or if they use contractors within their businesses?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, these businesses are absolutely important and are getting support through a range of means. We will continue to work with these businesses to make sure they are supported through this difficult period.
Mr. James Cumming: Mr. Chair, I spoke to a Second Cup owner whose landlord is not offering any kind of rent relief. The landlord says that he doesn't have the 25% needed to be eligible for the program because he's already paying for common area costs and deferrals on utilities, which he will have to pay on his mortgage. Will the government reform the rent relief program to focus on tenants and not just the landlords?
Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance): Mr. Chair, I want to let the member know that we are working to make sure that the details of the emergency program for rent are out there so that both tenants and landlords can understand the situation. We're seeing a significant number of both landlords and tenants coming forward to register for this program, and we are convinced that it will be in the best interests of landlords to move forward and give tenants this relief.
Mr. James Cumming: Mr. Chair, we've been hearing, however, from small business owners that their landlords don't find the government's rent relief program appealing enough. Can the government confirm, given the program's low eligibility rate, that the program will be expanded and be more efficient in helping tenants?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we recognize that it's critically important that all of the details of this program be out there for landlords and tenants to understand. Those details are being worked on right now. This is a program that we've put out within the last week, and we are confident that it's in the best interests of tenants and landlords.
Mr. James Cumming: Mr. Chair, during these trying times for small businesses, small businesses need all the help they can get. One easy way to do that would be to expand the Canada summer jobs program to businesses with over 50 employees. Will the government consider doing so to allow students to gain that very valuable work experience over the coming months?
Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion): Mr. Chair, we are very excited about the uptake of the Canada summer jobs program this year. The second uptake provided employers across the country with the ability to add their needs for students to the mix. I'm looking forward to announcing a possible expansion of this program in the coming days.
The Chair: The next question session will go to Mr. Dowdall.
Mr. Terry Dowdall (SimcoeGrey, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. During this pandemic, the government has consistently called for a team Canada, non-partisan approach, and I was glad to hear that said a little earlier today. In fact, the public has called for that approach as well. However, at the same time, the current government has used a parliamentary back door to launch a poorly thought out gun ban. We have a government that didn't win the popular vote, and I'm just wondering how I explain to my residents, because I'm getting so many calls, that this is not a bloated response because, quite frankly, it is.
Hon. Bill Blair (Scarborough Southwest, Lib.): First of all, Mr. Chair, I think the honourable member can explain to his constituents that the forming of regulations through order in council is actually the process prescribed in law in Canada under section 117.15 of the Criminal Code. I would also invite the member to advise his constituents that way back in 1991, when there were some Conservatives who called themselves Progressive, the Mulroney government brought forward, in Bill C-17, the authority under that section for an order in council to prescribe specific makes, models and variants of military firearms as prohibited or restricted. The Harper government used the same tool
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Dowdall.
Mr. Terry Dowdall: I'm not sure, but I'm hoping, that I'll get an honest answer on this question from the minister, who has everything from rocket launchers to basically toy guns on the ban list. When will we get the cost of this buyback program?
The Chair: I want to remind the honourable members to please be careful in their language when they are referring to others. I won't comment on this one particularly, but I want all of you to be very, very careful when referring to other members. The honourable minister.
Hon. Bill Blair: It's a good opportunity, Mr. Chair, to respond to some of the obfuscations and deceptions that have been put out there. We're not banning any toys and we're not banning shotguns. That's all misinformation that's being put out. I think it's very clear, and I invite the member to look at the list of weapons that are
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Dowdall.
Mr. Terry Dowdall: Thank you. What will be the cost of the buyback program, please?
Hon. Bill Blair: Actually, I'm very much looking forward to bringing forward legislation as soon as the House resumes. We will have a vigorous debate in Parliament about the form a buyback will take and we will bring forward a budget at that time.
Mr. Terry Dowdall: Will those with illegal weapons be eligible for the buyback program?
Hon. Bill Blair: If people are illegally in possession of the weapons and they're committing a crime, they will be dealt with for the crimes they commit.
Mr. Terry Dowdall: Okay. I'm going to switch it over. Canadians in my riding who suffer from cystic fibrosis are among the most vulnerable to COVID-19 infection. While these Canadians with existing lung conditions are incredibly worried about a virus that attacks the ability to breathe, the good news is that there are life-saving medicines for those with CF. The problem is with the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board and its restrictive guidelines. I am wondering if and when the government will correct these guidelines and give access to life-saving medicines for our most vulnerable.
Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Mr. Chair, as you know, the government has been very committed to improving access and affordability for prescription medications for all Canadians. The PMPRB regulatory amendments will help Canadians be able to afford their prescriptions, and Canada will continue to be an important market for new medicines. In fact, many countries with much lower medicine prices gained access to new medicines in the same time frame as Canada frame, or even faster, so we are excited to do this work.
Mr. Terry Dowdall: Mr. Chair, our seniors are being particularly hard hit right now during this pandemic, yet seniors have not been given any direct support. It's one of the number one calls I'm getting in my office. Funding to charities like the United Way is being labelled as support for seniors, but most won't see any of this support. Seniors in my riding have asked for an increase in their CPP and OAS, and to be able to make untaxed bulk withdrawals from their RRSPs while they still have some value. Can the minister confirm when these real and direct supports for seniors will be forthcoming?
Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors): I want to assure the honourable member and Canadians that our government has been working extremely hard on how best to support and serve seniors during this pandemic. He mentioned . I'm not quite sure what's happening with my machine. I apologize.
The Chair: You might want to try your space bar and keep it down while you're speaking. That might solve the problem.
Hon. Deb Schulte: Okay, I'll try that. Thank you very much. I want to assure the honourable member and Canadians that our government has been working extremely hard on how best to support and serve seniors during this pandemic. We have introduced a supplementary GST payment for low- and modest-income seniors. We've reduced the minimum RRIF withdrawal by 25%, and we've made the CERB available to working seniors who have lost their jobs due to the COVID pandemic. We know there's more work to do, and we'll have more to say in the future.
The Chair: I want to remind honourable members that if there are issues, we are taking note of them, and we'll hopefully resolve them by the next meeting. We are getting much better, and we're all new at this. Thank you for your patience. We'll now go to Ms.Gaudreau.
Ms. Marie-Hlne Gaudreau (LaurentidesLabelle, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. My first question is for the Prime Minister. We've heard a lot about contact tracing apps. Several provinces have already made announcements on this, and others want to follow suit. Today, I'd like to know where the government stands on this. We've been talking about a national strategy for some time. Where are we now?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Obviously, contact tracing is an important part of managing any outbreak. In fact, we have been looking at a number of ways to support increased contact tracing across the country, including working with provinces and territories to boost their capacity through human resources and volunteer organizations. We are working very closely with them to make sure we have the capacity. The member is right that many other countries have used digital contact tracing apps. Anything we put forward as a digital tool to assist with contact tracing would be thoroughly considerate of Canadians' privacy rights.
Ms. Marie-Hlne Gaudreau: Let me clarify my question a little. Yes, we are talking about public health, and we are currently experiencing a crisis. But you know as well as I do that the Privacy Commissioner has been calling us to task for a very long time now, because there is also a crisis of confidence. You know as well as I do that for 90%of Canadians, the misuse of their personal data is a cause for concern, whether it be for profiling or business development purposes. This is an issue that concerns all Canadians. The commissioner is indeed calling for a focus on reform of the Privacy Act. I'd like to know whether this commitment will be implemented quickly so that legislation can be passed on this issue, in this case the Privacy Act.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Particular attention must be paid to transparency, privacy and ethical concerns. Naturally, Canadians are concerned about how their data is used. New technologies are subject to the Privacy Act.
Ms. Marie-Hlne Gaudreau: We're talking about public health. The provinces are currently in the process of legislating. We're talking about what is going on in Quebec, among other places, and I would like to make sure that the federal government commits to respecting the proposals regarding geolocation and contact tracing possibilities, with full respect for the right to privacy. Can we commit to respecting the provinces?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Thank you, Mr. Chair. We have worked very closely with provinces and territories for a long time before the outbreak, but certainly ever since the outbreak. We respect the rights of jurisdictional authorities to use tools that have been properly vetted through their own provincial and territorial legislation. Nothing we would ever do at the federal level would put Canadians' privacy in jeopardy.
Ms. Marie-Hlne Gaudreau: Concerning privacy, there are 30million Quebeckers and Canadians who have had their personal data leaked. Why is it that our laws don't allow us to apply financial penalties so that we can then go further? The very basis is to be concerned about our fundamental rights. The commissioner has been making this request for several years now. As the critic for access to information and privacy, I'd like a commitment that the federal government will deal not with what the provinces are doing, but with the Privacy Act.
The Chair: Your time is up, but I'll give the floor to the minister for 30seconds.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Thank you for the question. Our government will ensure the privacy of Canadians is respected, support responsible innovation and take reasonable steps to strengthen enforcement powers. That's why we created a digital charter. We are strengthening Canada's privacy laws in response to the digital age.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Baker.
Mr. Yvan Baker (Etobicoke Centre, Lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'll be sharing my time with the member for Malpeque. Mr. Chair, my question is for the Minister of Seniors. Minister, in my riding of Etobicoke Centre, we are mourning the loss of 40 residents to COVID-19 at the Eatonville long-term care centre. Over 143 residents and 88 staff members have now tested positive for the virus. This tragedy is not only taking place in Etobicoke Centre but across Canada. Of all Canadians who have died from COVID-19, 79% were living in long-term care homes. That's over 2,000 seniors. This is a catastrophe, and it's frankly unacceptable. Our seniors and their families deserve better. I understand that long-term care homes fall within the jurisdiction of provincial governments in Canada, but this is a crisis. What is the federal government doing right now to help protect our seniors who are living in long-term care homes from COVID-19? What will we do to reform our long-term care homes in the future to ensure that our seniors in Etobicoke Centre and across Canada get the care they deserve?
Hon. Deb Schulte: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to my colleague from Etobicoke Centre for his very thoughtful question. We are deeply concerned by the outbreaks of COVID-19 in long-term care facilities, and our thoughts are with those who have lost a loved one. It's a very difficult time. As my colleague mentioned, while these facilities are regulated by provinces and territories, we have been focused on protecting the health and safety of long-term care residents and staff while working with our partners in a team Canada approach. We've released guidelines to prevent and control COVID-19 infections. We're working with the provinces and territories to cost-share a temporary salary top-up for long-term care workers. We are working through investing $2 billion to secure personal protective equipment for the health of workers, including those in the long-term care homes, and we've deployed the Canadian Armed Forces to assist 25 long-term care homes in Quebec and Ontario. We all have a role to play to stop the spread of COVID-19 and to protect our seniors and caregivers.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Easter.
Hon. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. At the finance committee, we've heard a lot of concerns from all sectors of the economy as a result of COVID-19 and we've been presented with quite a number of possible solutions as well, several of which the government has acted upon. My question is on the support offered to the agri-food sector announced on Tuesday. It is very welcome support, but I sincerely believe the farm sector will be taking the Prime Minister up on the suggestion that $250 million should be seen as an initial investment. Potatoes are the number one commodity in Prince Edward Island. However, as a result of reduced processor contracts for next year, plus cancelled seed contracts, millions of dollars of seed and process potatoes have no home. To make matters worse, farmers have high fixed costs that they now have to spread over fewer acres. How does the minister see Tuesday's announcement addressing potato farmers' concerns? Second, in 2013, long-term financial safety nets were gutted by the Harper government. Will the minister be coming forward with improved business risk management programs as a result?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food): Mr. Chair, I want to thank Mr. Easter, the member for the riding of Malpeque on Prince Edward Island. It's a beautiful rural riding with lots of agricultural production. I want to recognize the hard work of farmers throughout the crisis. On Tuesday, I was proud to announce one more step for supporting our producers and processors. We know the importance of our potato farmers, and that's why we are launching a first-ever surplus food purchase program, a $50-million fund designed to help redistribute existing inventories, such as potatoes, to local food organizations. On the financial safety net that we have in place for our farmers, called the business risk management program, we announced up to $125 million in funding through AgriRecovery and made changes to AgriStability that will help producers quickly. I will continue to discuss with my provincial counterparts toenhance and improve the BRM programs. In the meantime, I want to reiterate that BRM programs, including AgriInvest, are there to help farmers in difficult times.
The Chair: We'll go on to Mr. Johns now.
Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, small businesses across Canada closed their doors to stop the spread and for public health. Now they're currently hanging off the edge of a cliff waiting for financial help. Robyn, who has owned Arbutus Health in Tofino for over 13 years, can't apply for the Canada emergency business account loan, simply because she doesn't have a payroll of over $20,000. All of her practitioners are paid contractors, so she is ineligible. With no business income and without emergency financing, it is virtually impossible for her to pay her bills or come up with the 25% needed for the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance program. The government promised to be flexible and willing to adjust its COVID response rollout so that nobody falls through the cracks, but Robyn, like tens of thousands of proprietors who are the economic job creators of our communities, urgently needs the government's help now. Will the government amend its programs to help more business owners so that people like Robyn don't lose their businesses?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for his really good question. I know he and I have talked about this, and I appreciate the input and the feedback that he is providing from business directly. I want to assure Robyn and her businesses, and many businesses across the country, that we are absolutely listening, and we will continue to make sure we are supporting those businesses during this period. We know that many businesses are being helped through the Canada emergency business account. There are well over 550,000 businesses that are getting support through this emergency business account. We also know that more has to be done, and we will continue to work with you and businesses across the country so that we can indeed give them that necessary support to weather this difficult period of COVID-19.
Mr. Gord Johns: Mr. Chair, that's not going to help Robyn feel comfort. I was talking to Heather last night, who also owns a business in Tofino, Basic Goodness Pizzeria, with her partner Marco. Like many proprietors of family businesses who aren't on payroll, they don't qualify for the business loans. They don't qualify for the wage subsidy because they're a seasonal business. Now with the new rollout of the rent support, they're not sure if their landlord is willing to play ball and even apply. That's three separate programs that leave them out. Heather was in tears last night as she told me that they have done nothing wrong to deserve being excluded from these emergency programs. I agree. Will the government fix the rent support program so that tenants can apply, instead of leaving it up to landlords, and so businesses can get the help they desperately need?
Hon. Mona Fortier (OttawaVanier, Lib.): Mr. Chair, we've been working on this program since the beginning. We've been working on offering a response for small businesses and charities and non-profit organizations, and we are continuing to listen on the ground to how we can better assist the businesses that fall through the cracks. We will continue to do that as we go along in this emergency situation. Thank you very much to the honourable member for sharing the realities of his constituents.
Mr. Gord Johns: Mr. Chair, when the government rolled out its commercial rent support program, why didn't it negotiate an eviction moratorium with the provinces, as Australia and other countries did, to protect business owners?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, as we know, Canadians are taking action and fighting against COVID-19. We know that many small businesses are worried about being able to pay rent. We've recognized it and we've been working with the provinces and territories to implement the Canada emergency commercial rent
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Johns.
Mr. Gord Johns: To qualify for the Canada emergency wage subsidy, a 30% drop in revenue has to be shown. Anyone who's owned a business knows that even with this program, it's going to be hard to survive. Why is the government using a 70% measurement drop to qualify for the rent support program, but a 30% drop for the wage subsidy?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Again, Mr. Chair, thank you to the honourable member for sharing his views on this program. We've been working with provinces and territories to provide forgivable loans to commercial property owners, who in turn lower the rents for their tenants by 75%. We're hoping that tenants and landlords will be working together so we can support businesses during this very difficult crisis.
The Chair: Before we move on to the next question, Mr.Berthold, did you have a question or a point of order?
Mr. Luc Berthold: Mr.Chair, I have a point of order. I checked the clock from the first round of five minutes, and as you may recall, it took a very long time for me to get an answer from the government. I went back and forth with MinisterMcKenna for four minutes and 14seconds.
The Chair: Just a moment. The interpretation isn't coming through. It's working now. Go ahead, Mr.Berthold.
Mr. Luc Berthold: I'll start over. During my first turn, it took 50seconds before a government minister deigned to answer my questions. After checking my time, I realized that the discussion between Ms.McKenna and I went on for four minutes and 14seconds, so I wasn't able to ask the minister one final question, a very important one. I would ask you to take that into account and allow me to ask MinisterMcKenna one last question, please.
The Chair: The person chairing the meeting uses their judgment and does their best to keep an eye on what's going on. They try to be as fair as possible. I'll try to do a better job. I think it's more or less equal for all the members, but I apologize if the honourable member feels that he was denied a few seconds. Our next question goes to Mr. Doherty.
Mr. Todd Doherty (CaribooPrince George, CPC): Mr. Chair, the Canada-U.S. border agreement is set to expire on May 20. Will the two governments renew the current agreement, or will it be modified?
Hon. Bill Blair: The decision to close the border was made in Canada by Canadians in the best interest of Canadians. We're continuing to monitor the situation carefully.
Mr. Todd Doherty: When will the government be in a position to inform Canadians of any changes to the agreement?
Hon. Bill Blair: I'm pleased to advise the member that we're continuing to monitor the situation, but I'm strongly of the opinion that the circumstances on both sides of our border do not indicate that this is the right time to make a change in the restrictions.
Mr. Todd Doherty: Can the government confirm whether there are any discussions about reopening the border to certain modes of transportation and restricting others?
The Chair: Before I go to the minister, I want to remind the honourable members that we do have translators, and they are trying to translate. With respect to them, I know we're trying to get as many questions in as possible, but they do have to translate them, so please be considerate of our interpreters. The honourable minister has the floor.
Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): Let me please inform the honourable member that we are, of course, aware that the current agreement expires. I had a long conversation yesterday with the Prime Minister
Mr. Todd Doherty: When will the government announce a relief package for Canada's aviation industry?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: We are engaged with the industry, and we are working with them on a solution, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Todd Doherty: Mr. Chair, will this relief package include funding for airline ticket refunds similar to what other countries around the world have done? Yes or no?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: It's early to say anything at this moment. We're taking a sectoral approach. This is about making sure that we restart the economy and have a strong recovery.
Mr. Todd Doherty: Can the Minister of Transport confirm that temperature screening is taking place at Canadian airports. Yes or no?
Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport): Mr. Chair, I can confirm that Air Canada has now adopted a policy of checking temperatures for passengers boarding Air Canada flights.
Mr. Todd Doherty: At which airports is that, and when did this practice start?
Hon. Marc Garneau: Mr. Chair, the announcement was made recently by Air Canada. It will start shortly and will apply to all places and destinations where Air Canada flies.
Mr. Todd Doherty: Mr. Chair, this is for the Minister of Transport. Last week I asked the Minister of Labour if they were aware of a letter written on April 6 by CUPE to the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Labour. Minister, were you aware of that letter?
The Chair: I want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the Chair and not directly.
Hon. Marc Garneau: Mr. Chair, I didn't understand the reference to a letter from CUPE. Could my colleague please clarify?
Mr. Todd Doherty: On April 6, CUPE wrote a letter to the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Labour. Is the minister aware of that letter?
Hon. Marc Garneau: Mr. Chair, could my colleague clarify what CUPE is referring to?
Mr. Todd Doherty: CUPE is the labour organization that represents thousands of flight attendants across our country.
Hon. Marc Garneau: Mr. Chair, I do understand. Yes, I will confirm that CUPE, which represents the flight attendants, did write to us. Before that I had conversations with CUPE with respect to flight attendants and the use of personal protective equipment.
Mr. Todd Doherty: Can the minister confirm whether or not they have provided PPE to the flight attendants and/or training for front-line staff for airlines and airports?
Hon. Marc Garneau: Mr. Chair, the airlines are providing PPE to flight attendants and flight crews. This has become a policy to ensure the safety not only of passengers on board but also of the flight attendants and flight crew.
Mr. Todd Doherty: Mr. Chair, a business owner from Quesnel wrote to my office recently. He stated that he couldn't give his small business tenants a break on rent because the government is penalizing him for paying off his mortgage. When will the government change the CECRA rules to help more businesses?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, as you know, we laid out the CECRA program just last week, and we are encouraging landlords to take that opportunity to support the renters. We will continue to look at how we can provide some relief to small businesses with rents.
Mr. Todd Doherty: With all due respect, Mr. Chair, any landlord who does not have a mortgage on their business is ineligible for CECRA. Is the minister aware of this, and are they trying to revise the CECRA program?
Hon. Mona Fortier: As you know, we've been working with provinces and territories to present that program. Of course, we will continue to monitor how this program works for landlords and tenants. We are asking, actually encouraging, landlords to do their part and help tenants, like the one you mentioned, go through this.
The Chair: We'll go to the next questioner. Go ahead, Ms. Dancho.
Ms. Raquel Dancho (KildonanSt. Paul, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Small businesses in Manitoba employ 73% of Manitobans. That's over 286,000 Manitobans. I've been speaking with many small business owners in my riding. It's been heartbreaking, frankly, to hear that everything they've built and sacrificed for is in serious jeopardy, and through no fault of their own. Your government has created programs that are supposed to help them, but many legitimate businesses aren't able to apply. That could mean bankruptcy and cost thousands of Manitobans jobs. This is wrong. I'm hoping to hear specifics, not just nice words, on what you're going to do to help them. There are three issues regarding access to the $40,000 CEBA loan. First, businesses that recently incorporatedfor example, in late 2019are unable to apply their entire 2019 payroll. As a result, many are falling short of the $20,000 payroll threshold required to qualify for this loan. Second, many businesses contract their employees rather than have them on payroll. They also are unable to qualify for this loan. Third, many businesses use personal rather than business banking accounts. They aren't able to qualify for this loan either. What is your government going to do about these three scenarios?
The Chair: I just want to remind honourable members to place their questions through the Chair and not directly to the minister. As well, please take into consideration the interpreters, who have to listen and translate, so that we can have this conversation.
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for that question. Right from the very beginning, we've always said that we will listen and that we will work to make sure that measures go out to help our Canadian small businesses. She's absolutely right: 98% of all our businesses in this country are small businesses, so they absolutely contribute enormously to our communities and are job creators. That is why we have put out significant measures. For the Canada emergency business account, over 550,000 small businesses have been approved and are getting that support. I absolutely acknowledge that there is more work to do. I can assure the honourable member that we will continue to do this work so that businesses, all businesses, are supported, whether it is helping keep your employees together, helping with rent support, helping to keep your business's expenses low, or of course helping with the capital that is needed so that you can pay your operating expenses and your bills through this difficult time.
Ms. Raquel Dancho: Mr. Chair, I didn't hear any answers from the minister's remarks, unfortunately. Moving on, there are two issues regarding the 50% commercial rent assistance subsidy, where landlords pay 25%, the government pays 50%, and the tenant is responsible for 25%. First, many of the small landlords aren't able to take a 25% hit to their income, and are unable to provide the subsidy to their tenants. Second, with the 70% decline in revenue threshold for small businesses to even be eligible for the rent assist, many restaurants are at 65% or 67% decline. They desperately need this subsidy but aren't able to qualify. This is not about problems with the program details. What is the government planning to do to streamline this program for small businesses that can't access but desperately need the rent subsidy?
Hon. Mlanie Joly: Mr. Chair, as the Minister of Official Languages, I just want to raise the fact that interpretation is very complicated right now. In order to make sure that we can continue to uphold bilingualism within the House, I would love it if my colleagues could take down the pace a bit. That would help the interpreters a whole lot. They are working very hard and trying to keep up.
The Chair: That's a reasonable request. I just want to remind everyone again that when you're asking a question, make sure you are doing it at a pace at which you're considering the people who are interpreting
Ms. Raquel Dancho: Mr. Chair, this is how fast I speak when we're in the House of Commons. It's just how I talk.
The Chair: I understand. I have a lot of friends who speak very quickly.
Ms. Raquel Dancho: Right. I understand. Perhaps we could get back to my question about the rent subsidy.
The Chair: We stopped the time. You're not losing any time on this one.
Ms. Raquel Dancho: Okay. I will try to speak more slowly.
The Chair: I appreciate it. Thank you. The interpreters appreciate it. Now we'll go to the minister, please.
Hon. Mona Fortier: As you know, we've been working with the provinces and territories to provide this forgivable loan to commercial property owners, who in turn lower the rent of their tenants by 75%. We will continue to monitor how this program is delivered, as we announced it last week. It will be offered pretty soon. It will be very important that we understand what happens across the country, and we will monitor and adapt the program as we
Ms. Raquel Dancho: Mr. Chair, it has been in the media quite a bit that this rent subsidy is not helping many, many, many small business owners. It's falling short of everything that was announced, so I think it needs to be taken a bit more seriously than that. There are two issues regarding the 75% wage subsidy. First, employers who pay themselves and their employees dividends rather than wages are unable to qualify. Second, there is also a 30% threshold revenue decline needed in order to apply. Many of the businesses in my riding are at 27% or 29%. They desperately need these funds but are unable to qualify. What is the government planning to do for these small businesses?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Again, thank you to the hon. member for sharing the realities she's hearing from small business owners. We are providing help and support for businesses through these very difficult times. The wage subsidy has been taken up and is working for many businesses. We know that some still fall through the cracks and we will look at how we can continue to support businesses across the country.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends (BrossardSaint-Lambert, Lib.)): We are now going to Mr. Kevin Waugh.
Mr. Kevin Waugh (SaskatoonGrasswood, CPC): Thank you, Madam Chair. Three weeks ago, on April 17, the Minister of Canadian Heritage announced funding of $500 million to assist Canada's arts, sports and cultural sectors. We are still waiting to hear who is eligible and when they can expect to receive this funding.
Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage): Madam Chair, we will be releasing the details of that announcement, and how the money is going to be spent, in the coming days.
Mr. Kevin Waugh: We all know that many media organizations, large and small, in Canada are struggling right now. Allegations have arisen that the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, CBC, is currently engaging in predatory behaviour and taking advantage of the current situation to harm its competitors using rate cuts. We've seen this from the province of Quebec. Many journalists have talked about this. What is the government going to do to address these allegations against the CBC?
Hon. Steven Guilbeault: Madam Chair, we have not been informed of these allegations. We will look into this, and we will get back to the hon. colleague if we do find any valuable information.
Mr. Kevin Waugh: Local community and ethnic media outlets and papers have strong ties to their communities that often go much deeper than the major media outlets. Is the government currently using any local or ethnic media outlets to provide crucial coronavirus information through advertising?
Hon. Steven Guilbeault: Madam Chair, I totally agree with my colleague. We need to get the information to Canadians on COVID-19, which is why we have started an ad-buy campaign of $30 million, which is being distributed in more than 900 local, regional and national newspapers across the country and 500 radio and TV stations in 12 different languages, including Farsi, Mandarin, Spanish, Italian and many more.
Mr. Kevin Waugh: Mr. Minister, I talked to the Winnipeg Free Press yesterday. It has received two ads from an ad agency in connection with the $30 million the government is doling out to help media outlets. They had one ad on March 27. The second ad was on April 11. That is two ads in the Winnipeg Free Press in the last eight weeks. Is this the kind of money you're attempting to dole out to help media: two ads in eight weeks?
Hon. Steven Guilbeault: Madam Chair, we have been doing a number of things for our media in Canada over the last few months and will continue to do so. On top of that $30 million ad-buy campaign, we have been investing $50 million in local journalism. Just this year, it means that 200 journalists will be hired in areas across the country where journalism is more poorly defined. The federal government has paid part I licence fees of our broadcasters to the CRTC. That means $30 million is staying in the pockets of our broadcasters.
Mr. Kevin Waugh: Madam Chair, last week, as the minister would know, 15 community newspapers, including eight in Manitoba and seven in the province of Ontario, closed their doors for good. Is the government currently planning any further measures aimed at assisting community or ethnic media organizations? We understand that many more will close their doors within the next 30 to 60 days.
Hon. Steven Guilbeault: We are planning a number of other measures, some of which will be included in the $500 million. I will be announcing the details of that in the coming days. Of the $595 million that the media will receive, we have a tax credit that has now entered into force, and the cheques should be in the mail by the end of the summer. So there are a number of things we've done and a number of things we will be doing in the coming months as well.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): Mr. Waugh, you may have a short question.
Mr. Kevin Waugh: Well, finally, you have the five members associated with that committee to dole out the $595 million. They haven't even met yet. When will they meet?
Hon. Steven Guilbeault: I would like to remind my hon. colleague that in order for us to provide tax breaks for the 2019 period, media outlets had to file their tax returns so we could go ahead. This will now be able to proceed, Madam Chair.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): We now move on to Mr.Godin. Mr.Godin, you may go ahead.
Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC): Thank you, MadamChair. This being the first time I've had the floor during a virtual sitting of Parliament, I'd like to take this opportunity to greet my fellow members, all 259participants. I hope they are taking care of themselves. I'd like to talk about the Prime Minister's appearance on the show Tout le monde en parle. This is what he had to say about his economic recovery plan: We are going to remain focused on the economy as a wholeinnovationresearch and science, the green economy and a fairer economyThere are things we are all reflecting on right now that reflection is going to continue. That was a weak answer. It didn't inspire much confidence. Can the government assure Canadians that it is being proactive and working on a plan to get the economy moving again? It must act now. Things are starting to reopen gradually. Is the government going to take concrete action to revive the economy?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Yes, absolutely. Our government is wholly committed to restarting the economy, and we are working closely with the provinces to do just that. Last week, our government, together with the provincial and territorial premiers, released the principles that will guide efforts to restore economic activity across the country. That is key. The discussion between the Prime Minister and the premiers is continuing today.
Mr. Jol Godin: MadamChair, before we go any further, since it took a while for the minister, or the government, to answer the question, can I have that time back to ask questions?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): I stopped the clock, Mr.Godin.
Mr. Jol Godin: Thank you. The Prime Minister's answer during his appearance on Tout le monde en parle didn't inspire much confidence and doesn't line up with the Deputy Prime Minister's comments. How can the government be proud of announcing $252million in assistance for the agri-food sector, when that is less than 1% of all the program funding the government has committed to help Canadians get through the COVID-19 crisis? Clearly, the government doesn't see the food supply chain as a priority and has no regard for farmers and pork and beef producers. Does the government realize that eating is vital to Canadians? When is the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food going to adjust the program and show respect for Canadian farmers?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: I have the utmost respect for farmers. We are going step by step. We've already confirmed various supports for the agricultural sector. This week, we focused on beef and pork producers and processors, as well as sectors with product surpluses that can be redirected to food banks. I can assure my fellow member that this is an additional step and that more supports are on the way in the weeks ahead. Bear in mind that a number of programs are already available to farmers.
Mr. Jol Godin: I'd like to switch topics now. PortneufJacques-Cartier is home to a company that is already licensed by Health Canada and that, for 20years, has been manufacturing medical equipment including masks, face shields and thermometers. This is equipment our health workers need. The company has a licence from the federal government. In mid-March, Health Canada reached out to the company to find out how much equipment it could manufacture to help fight COVID-19. The company confirmed that it could immediately start producing 200,000masks a week, ramping up to a million masks over the next few weeks. Forty-five days later, it is still waiting on its first order from the Canadian government. We are managing a crisis with a limited supply of medical equipment. Can the health minister tell us why, 45days later, this company licensed by Health Canada hasn't received an order?
Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement): Thank you for the question. Industry and suppliers have enthusiastically answered our call to equip Canada with products and goods during the crisis. Many of those suppliers have already received contracts. We have reached out to all the others and will negotiate contracts as needed.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): I would now like to invite hon. member Jenica Atwin to speak.
Mrs. Jenica Atwin (Fredericton, GP): Thank you, Madam Chair. Seniors living alone are most at risk of economic insecurity, particularly single senior women, as gender inequality in the job market has translated all too often into inadequate retirement income. Madam Chair, can the minister commit to implementing a poverty reduction plan that addresses the unique challenges faced by older women?
Hon. Deb Schulte: Madam Chair, I want to assure the member that we are quite aware that this pandemic has typically affected single seniors, and many of those, given that they live longer, are single senior women. I want to assure her that we are working on this issue, and we have provided some supports already through measures such as the GST supplementary payment. That is on average almost $400 for single seniors. There's more work to do. We know that, so stay tuned.
Mrs. Jenica Atwin: Madam Chair, older women represent a high proportion of residents in long-term care facilities. Having spent their lives caring for parents, children and often their partners, they find themselves needing care in nursing homes. Multiple outbreaks of COVID-19 in long-term care homes in Canada have highlighted systemic gaps that senior and elderly women may face in such facilities, as well as the working conditions of the female-dominated ranks of nurses and personal support workers. Madam Chair, can the minister commit to implementing a federal strategy for long-term care homes that recognizes quality of life for residents and working conditions for the employees, ideally one that goes hand in hand with a poverty reduction plan and enhanced home and community care investments across the country?
Hon. Deb Schulte: Madam Chair, I do want to thank the hon. member for her question. It's an important one. We are obviously deeply saddened by the outbreaks that have been going on in long-term care facilities and those who have lost their lives. We do recognize that the administration of long-term care and palliative care is the responsibility of provinces and territories; however, we have been taking a team Canada approach, and as you already know, we've been doing tremendous work with them to try to ensure that those who live in those facilities can be well cared for and safe. We are doing that with guidelines
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): Ms. Atwin has the floor.
Mrs. Jenica Atwin: Madam Chair, from May 4 to May 10, we are observing Mental Health Week. We know that our essential workers right now are experiencing unprecedented levels of stress and anxiety, on top of putting their own physical safety and health on the line. Most of these workers work in precarious jobs with no access to paid sick leave or vacation, and without any benefits to access mental health services. Apart from the very welcome investments in online resources, can the minister explain how the government will support these workers now and once the crisis is behind us?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Madam Chair, thank you very much to the member for the question. I'm so glad that she's raising the issue of mental health and in particular how poor mental health is oftentimes connected to our socio-economic status. I appreciate the nuance in that question. She's right. We do have new resources that are available to all Canadians free of charge through the Wellness Together portal, but there is more to do. I think the announcement of top-up wages, for example, which the Prime Minister spoke about today, is another example of how we're taking the health and wellness of all low-income Canadians very seriously. We know that mental health is not divorced from socio-economic status, and I look forward to working with her more on other measures that we can take together.
Mrs. Jenica Atwin: Madam Chair, we're all very aware of the importance of temporary foreign workers and their role in ensuring our food sovereignty across this country. The pandemic has highlighted how we depend on their work. How are we protecting them? Madam Chair, will the government take action to strengthen legislation and ensure Canadians have access to the food they need while the workers who help bring it to our tables have safe working conditions, regardless of where they are working in this country?
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Thank you, Madam Chair. We are very concerned, as are countries around the world, that we support and create the environment for the health and safety of our temporary foreign workers and we value their contribution to our food supply chain here in Canada. We have issued guidelines to employers and are working very closely with local public health authorities in the provinces and territories to make sure workers are protected, that physical distancing and other recommendations are adhered to and that there are severe consequences if employers don't take care of their workers.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): We are now going to Mr. MacGregor.
Mr. Alistair MacGregor (CowichanMalahatLangford, NDP): Thank you, Madam Chair. My first question is this: Will the Liberal government prevent federal bailout funds from going to companies that use tax havens and avoid paying their fair share here in Canada, yes or no?
Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue): We are working to make sure that anyone who tries to circumvent the rules faces serious consequences. We are asking businesses to designate a representative to attest their claims. Any employer receiving the subsidy who is deemed ineligible will have to repay the full amount. Anyone who abuses the program could face fines of up to 225% of the subsidy amount as well as five years in prison.
Mr. Alistair MacGregor: Madam Chair, I didn't really hear a yes to that question, so I'll repeat it. Does the government really think it's appropriate for tax-avoiding corporations to receive funding provided for by taxpayers?
Hon. Diane Lebouthillier: We will keep going after companies that engage in tax evasion. I want to be clear. We will target those who are responsible, not innocent workers. An employee is an employee, regardless of who they work for. The wage subsidy program does not hand a blank cheque over to employers. It is meant to help Canadians pay their bills, keep their jobs and get through the crisis.
Mr. Alistair MacGregor: Madam Chair, the agriculture funding announced by the government earlier this week amounts to less than 10% of what the Canadian Federation of Agriculture estimates will be required to help farmers weather this crisis. Why has the Minister of Agriculture shortchanged our farmers?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Madam Chair, this is one more step. This was one more step. We have already committed significant support to our farmers through different programs, and we will do more. I have to remind my colleague that we have put in $5 billion through FCC, $50 million for the temporary foreign workers, two times $50 million for pork and beef producers this week, and $77 million for food processing. This is only the beginning, and we should not forget that the business risk management programs are still there to offer support.
Mr. Alistair MacGregor: Yes, Madam Chair, but we're nearly two months into this pandemic and this announcement only came this week. Farmers need certainty. When can farmers expect further updates on funding, and how much will the government be providing?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Madam Chair, we are working closely with the farmers and their representatives to identify where the gaps are, but once again, we have made improvements to the AgriStability program. They can get, depending on the province, either 50% or 75% in advance payments, and they can also, right now, access their AgriInvest program. There is more than $2 billion ready to access today, if they have
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): Mr. MacGregor.
Mr. Alistair MacGregor: Madam Chair, federal disability recipients and seniors on fixed incomes have been hardest hit by cost of living increases from COVID-19. If we acknowledge that $2,000 per month is the minimum needed to get through this time, why are they being asked to survive on far less? When can they expect assistance, and how much will they receive?
Hon. Deb Schulte: Madam Chair, I want to make sure people realize that we have provided some assistance through the GST supplementary benefit. We are also providing support to those who are still working, and we have done that by allowing them to access the CERB. There is more work to be done, so you'll be hearing more in the near future.
Mr. Alistair MacGregor: Madam Chair, as I think we've heard through today's question period, there are countless example of this government designing programs to exclude many small businesses that desperately need help. Whether it's the payroll requirements or other eligibility, we still, to this day, almost two months into the pandemic, have too many small businesses falling through the cracks. Madam Chair, why has the government taken this approach and when can we finally expect fixes to the whole system?
Hon. Mary Ng: Madam Chair, right from the get-go, we have been committed to making sure that Canadians are helped through this crisis, and that small businesses get the support that they need, so that we are saving businesses and jobs in this country. That is what we have done with many of our programs. You're seeing that we are also listening, so that we can modify them as we need. I want to assure the member that the work is not done. We continue to do this.
The Chair: Thank you. It is now over to Mr.Perron. Mr.Perron, you may go ahead.
Mr. Yves Perron (BerthierMaskinong, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. My question will come as no surprise, since it has to do with agriculture. I hear the questions my fellow members are asking, and to be frank, I don't find the answers satisfactory. It is well and good to talk about existing programs, but they aren't working, so enough with that refrain. That's what people are telling us. It's not just members of the opposition saying it. This morning, both farmers and processors came together for a press conference at the Union des producteurs agricoles's head office in Longueuil. Six stakeholders from different sectors sounded the alarm. Can the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food therefore tell us when she will announce significant supports for the industry?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: We have already announced significant amounts of support, and more is on the way. I'd like to correct my fellow member. It's not that the programs aren't working; it's that they aren't generous enough in farmers' eyes. That's why I'm working with my provincial counterparts to make improvements to programming, including AgriStability. Here's an example. After using the online AgriStability benefit estimator, a pork producer found out that he would get $11 per head, as they say in the industry. Pork producers are calling for $20 per head, so it's a good start, even though it's not enough and it isn't what they are asking for. We want to keep working together, but farmers have to access the money available to them through AgriStability.
Mr. Yves Perron: Now it's my turn to correct the minister. Even before the crisis, we were hearing from people in the industry that the programs were neither suitable nor sufficient. We are in a crisis, and this is an exceptional situation. In the case of mad cow disease, farmers received direct assistance. That's the kind of assistance we are calling for. We don't want to hear about growing levels of debt. Of course, this is a first step, but farms are already deep in debt. A few days ago, the government announced $50million in funding for pork producers, even though they are asking for $20per hog for 27million hogs. The government's support covers just 2.5million hogs. When I call the measure insufficient, I mean it is grossly insufficient. It's high time the government put forth more support. It has to stop saying that it's working hard and examining the situation. The government has to listen to the people in the industry. Again, this morning, they had some interesting proposals. When is the government going to announce a whole lot more in funding support? What's been announced so far is only 10% of what farmers are asking for.
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: We are going step by step. The programs are already in place. We are trying to make them better, and we are committed to doing that. These programs are cost-shared with the provinces. However, I would point out to the member that, when it comes to AgriRecovery, we made an exception to the rule. We are moving forward in every province to help pork and beef producers. That's two funding envelopes of $50million each to help cover the additional costs from the decrease in plant processing capacity. That's new money that was not yet available, money we introduced this week. As the Prime Minister said, we are going to do more, and we are moving forward step by step.
Mr. Yves Perron: What we concluded in committee this week is that the $125million is not new money. It was already earmarked for the programs. The government can't say that programs already exist and, at the same time, claim that they are new programs. Something doesn't add up there. What's more, there are different ways to make money available. I'd like to talk compensation. Everyone knows that the Canada-U.S.-Mexico Agreement came into force a month earlier than planned, despite the promises that had been made. That resulted in additional losses, once again. An easy way to make money available without committing new spending is to provide compensation and announce programs for supply-managed sectors that got nothing. It seems to me that a time of crisis is a time for the government to practise some judo and announce measures. I am reaching out to the government, as I always do, but it has to come forward with announcements. Can we expect the government to announce measures in the coming days?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Our commitment to farmers in supply-managed sectorsmeaning, egg, poultry and dairy farmersis as strong as it always was. I repeat, our commitment is clear. Dairy producers received their first payment at the end of last year or the beginning of this year. Support for poultry and egg farmers is in the form of investment programs, which aligns well with the recovery. At this time, we are focusing on emergency programs to help farmers hardest hit by the COVID-19 pandemic. When it comes to the dairy sector, I hope I can count on your support. As you know, legislative changes are needed to grant the Canadian Dairy Commission's request and increase its borrowing limit by $200million so it can buy more butter and cheese.
The Chair: Our next question will go to Mr. Lake.
Hon. Mike Lake (EdmontonWetaskiwin, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, we're all inundated, as we've heard during this entire question period, with Canadians' concerns about the economic restrictions and the social restrictions that they're under. Over the last couple of months, the WHO has given one very consistent message in terms of coming out of those economic and social restrictions. On March 16, Dr. Tedros said in his briefing, We have a simple message for all countries: test, test, test. On March 25, 44 days ago, he said, Aggressive measures to find, isolate, test, treat and trace are not only the best and fastest way out of extreme social and economic restrictionstheyre also the best way to prevent them. Does the minister agree with the WHO that relentless testing and tracing are critical to a successful economic and social relaunch strategy in Canada?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Thanks to the member for the very astute observation and question. Absolutely, we agree that testing and contact tracing will form an important part of our response to living with COVID. We've been investing heavily in ensuring that we have the lab capacity, the collaboration across provinces and territories, and the variety of testing options to help us increase our capacity to test. We are aiming right now for a high volume of tests, but I will also say that in Canada we have one of the highest testing rates in the world. Although we're doing well, I can assure him that I am with him and I believe we need to do more.
Hon. Mike Lake: I have some really quick questions for follow-up. First, what is Canada's current testing capability?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, as I mentioned to his colleagues yesterday, we have currently the capacity to do approximately 60,000 tests per day across the country.
Hon. Mike Lake: How many tests were conducted each day on average in Canada last week?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, it's hard for me to get that exact number, but I will get back to him with the exact number.
Hon. Mike Lake: I'll save you the time. The exact number was 28,851, on average, every day last week. That's a gap of 30,000 from what your stated testing capability is. I'll give another quote from Dr. Tam, back on April 22, 15 days ago. She said, As a first tranche, roughly close to 60,000 is where the provinces can potentially expand to as a target already. Does the minister happen to know, ballpark, what the average number of daily tests in Canada has been since that statement?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Your estimate was slightly higher than what my estimate was going to be, so that's a great piece of news. Listen, I will just say that I think if the premise here is that we could be doing more testing. I would agree, but I will also say that the provinces and territories are working incredibly hard on testing strategies that meet their own specific needs. I'm happy to have a conversation with the member later about that testing strategy. Dr. Tam works with all the chief public health officers across the country to ensure that their testing strategy is going to be applicable and appropriate for their particular jurisdictions. We, as the federal government, provide the capacity for them to conduct those tests.
Hon. Mike Lake: Following up on that, is there a jurisdiction in Canada where relentless testing is not the appropriate strategy as provinces consider relaunching?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Each province and territory has its own outbreak and its own epidemic. For example, in British Columbia, where there are relatively fewer cases in general and less disease activity, they may have a different testing strategy than a province like Ontario, which is currently struggling with more outbreaks.
Hon. Mike Lake: Given your comment that our current testing capability is 60,000, and acknowledging that only at one point in the entire history of our COVID response, over several months, has our weekly average been over 30,000it was about 31,000 for one day on a rolling basisMinister, are you satisfied with our current testing amounts right now, given that we're testing 50% of what the public health officer advises would be best?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: I'm so amazed by the work the provinces and territories have done in a very short time to increase their capacity. We are supporting them with the tools that they need to get more testing done, but also to have other components in place that will allow them to do the rapid tracing of positive cases. I think it's very important to remember that testing strategies will be different across the provinces, based on the outbreak disease epidemiology. Having said that, I know that we can all do better, and I'm certain that my counterparts feel the same.
The Chair: I'm going to have to cut the minister off at that one. I want to thank everyone for the session today, I think it went rather well. I'm very proud of you and proud of ourselves for what we managed to accomplish. The committee stands adjourned until Tuesday, May 12, at noon.
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Project Manager: Right w welcome to the the first meeting of uh Real Reaction's uh um development meetings for our our new television remote control . Uh this follows our very successful entry into the the consumer market over the last year or so um which we want to to build on , taking advantage of the uh the the latest developments in in technology and the uh the latest uh {vocalsound} uh feelings in in consumer design and and demand and uh we want to make this the the very best product th that's possible for everybody , uh one that everybody wants , uh at a good price for the consumer and at a good price for the company . Uh and to that end we need all to work together uh to do that . Um and uh b in no particular order because ev everybody is uh {vocalsound} just as vital to this project
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: um {vocalsound} I'll just go round th the table , Andrew , marketing , um m Kendra with the uh um {disfmarker} designing the the the User Interface uh uh and Kate with the the industrial design . Um . {vocalsound} What's uh {disfmarker} the the th th project is is here to do , is is to to get this this project up and moving , ev everybody is is free to uh say wh whatever they want , uh everybody has a contribution to make and uh {vocalsound} everybody feel free to interrupt me at any time to to say what you want to say . Um in in terms of the immediate meeting the uh um {gap} everybody knows everybody else , everybody's worked for the the company for a while , if if an anybody feels that they need to say more about themselves please do , if if if anybody wants to b briefly give their their background so that everybody's quite clear what everybody uh {disfmarker} uh everybody's experience is please do so . Uh in fact I'd I'd I'd welcome anybody to uh say something briefly about themselves , in fact we will do that by by going round the table quickly and and saying what what contribution you {disfmarker} you're looking to make . So we'll start with Andrew .
Marketing: Oh my name's Andrew I'm a {disfmarker} I'm the Market Research person for this uh for this meeting and this uh project for creating this new remote control and uh yeah I'll be uh presenting information statistics on what people want to want to uh get from this new design , what people want to {gap} like {disfmarker} and from a fashion point of view and the practicality point of view .
Project Manager: Right {vocalsound} Kendra .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm Kendra and I'm the Us User Interface Designer and um {vocalsound} I haven't had a whole lot of experience in this kind of thing before but I'm m so I'll be {vocalsound} working on the design .
Project Manager: Right at least means you haven't got any preconceived ideas so .
User Interface: Right . Yep , I'm just open to being creative .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh I'm Katie ,
Project Manager: Yep , good .
Industrial Designer: I'm the Industrial Designer and I'll just be I guess presenting about the the inter workings of our little remote control and uh {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , very very quickly , um {vocalsound} this {disfmarker} I don't want to make this meeting too structured because the the whole idea is that it's a um you know a think tank . Everybody says what they {gap} what they want to say , uh and we don't want to be constrained by uh kind of convention or uh uh slides on screens or or anything else um but um briefly um th th this is what we want to do . The the remote control needs to be original , there has to be something about it that uh other remote controls don't have so that as soon as people see it they think um yes that's different , uh I want one , um and that goes along with being trendy , uh uh you know the I want it uh scenario . User-friendly as as we all know , remote controls can be uh uh very user-unfriendly so we want to make ours one that people can pick up
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and think oh yes that's {disfmarker} it's obvious how that works , uh and they also want to look at the price and think oh yeah that's something that {disfmarker} I may not need another remote control but uh it's such a nice one I'm gonna have one . And last but not least , or indeed first of all , it it must make the company money , and we make the company money by producing what the consumer wants . The uh the further work to be done is i the um the functional design , uh what it uh what it must actually do , the uh conceptual design , uh how we actually present that to the consumer and th the the detailed design i is uh how we get that into production . Uh now th the main design tool that we have available to us at the moment is is the white board and uh uh {vocalsound} let us very quickly do what i what it says in the in the in the prompt slide here , um {disfmarker} In fact I suggest to avoid everybody untangling themselves from the uh the the wires , that we don't do that , um So I I {disfmarker} everybody knows what whiteboard is so we'll um uh we'll do a virtual drawing on the on on the whiteboard of of your your own uh uh favourite animal , but le let's go round the table , your favourite animal .
Marketing: Um , badger . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm and why ?
Marketing: Uh it's it's got nice contrast with black {vocalsound} and white and uh {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: I feel they're {gap} underdog kind of status
Project Manager: Oh right
Marketing: and they're , the
Project Manager: uh my my wife says my beard looks like a badger's arse 'cause of the the white streaks in it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um probably a duck
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Kendra .
User Interface: I just {disfmarker} I li I like the way they look and they're just nice animals and I like how they can fly or swim or walk around or whatever .
Project Manager: Uh-huh . Right , okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh 's horses , no particular reason why {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Uh-huh , {gap} fair enough yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm not sure that I've got any favourite animal to be quite honest , I think homo sapien
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because of their {disfmarker} their uh overall ability to uh uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Make mobile phones and T_V_ remotes {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Sorry ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: to make T_V_ remotes {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Indeed absolutely yes ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: tha that's um {disfmarker} Okay and uh w we need to keep in mind here that the uh {disfmarker} we want to sell this for for twenty five Euro um , we want to m make an overall profit for the the company of fifty million Euros so we're we're looking at selling a lot of these um ag across the the entire planet and and we're looking at a gross profit of fifty percent . {vocalsound} It needs to cost twelve Euros fifty to make . Um so we're not only looking at a a very trendy original product , we're looking at making it at a very good price . Um , okay , um {vocalsound} would anybody like t like to to start by giving their o um sort of quick views of of current remote controls .
User Interface: Well I think {disfmarker} I find a lot of them really complicated to use with all the different buttons and uh it's handiest when you have one that works both the D_V_D_ player or whatever and the T_V_ as well . Um , but that {disfmarker} it's easy to {gap} if you can switch back and forth instead of having to {vocalsound} press a bunch of different buttons
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: and {disfmarker} so I think it's is best when they're clearly labelled and you can see which buttons you're supposed to use , you know .
Project Manager: Any any thoughts about buttons or any oth other way of approaching the p the uh the problem ? Or anybody else , strong feelings about remote controls ? Are there you know , bad ones they've used or good ones they've used or ones that they've lost and never found again ?
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it's important that you should be able to {disfmarker} when you when you press the buttons it'll actually pick up the signals from kind of anywhere and you shouldn't have to like contort yourself and twist your remote control to get it {disfmarker} the T_V_ to actually pick up the signal .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Think a lot of the time , remotes that come with T_V_ players and {gap} T_V_s and D_V_ players , like they aren't
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: like an area that's put a lot of effort into , they're very boring , very plain .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Like it's very {disfmarker} a very {disfmarker} like um making a a stylish remote control would be a very like {disfmarker} Easily put us one step ahead of the current competition .
Project Manager: Um what so wh what's in in {disfmarker} what particular style features are you thinking about ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um . Something that looks looks {disfmarker} doesn't look like remote control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So if you want , {vocalsound} something that looks like uh {disfmarker} something that makes you think oh what's this ? Like this pen doesn't really look like a pen ,
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: but it makes you think oh .
Project Manager: {gap} . Yeah
Marketing: So , sorry that's a bit vague {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: d no I mean do you think there's a risk if it doesn't look like remote control , {vocalsound} people won't see it as a remote control um and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh I suppose suppose that's up to the marketing to to make make people aware of the product .
Project Manager: Uh-huh . Any other thoughts about um th the physical appearance of a {disfmarker} of remote controls ?
User Interface: I think something that's comfortable to hold because sometimes you get the remote controls that are just those big , rectangular things
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: and uh they're kind of awkward to hold onto ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so something that's more comfortable that fits in a person's hand better .
Project Manager: I mean th the thing that i immediately comes to mind is computer mouses which um I mean y you get all sorts of shapes in the shops
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: and s you know some quite fancy ones um than the {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: some from personal experience which look nice
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but {vocalsound} aren't particularly comfortable . Um {vocalsound} any thoughts about buttons or flat screens or uh uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Well from the mouse idea you could , {gap} remote is a piece of plastic with the big rubber buttons sticking out of it which you press , whereas if you want {gap} {disfmarker} could all be flat and the buttons are very kind of almost subtle that instead of being raised out of the device uh you push into device you see , like a mouse button .
Project Manager: Yes , I mean {vocalsound} the only thing is if if you're watching television in a in a a darkened room um you need to be able to uh
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: I suppose .
Project Manager: fi find the button buttons easily .
Marketing: Easily , yeah yeah .
User Interface: But maybe they could be concave instead of sticking up to have them {disfmarker} be kind of down so you could feel them
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: better .
Project Manager: Yeah , that's uh {disfmarker} must admit I don't think I've ever seen one with concave buttons , that's uh {disfmarker} certainly be different . Um do we need it to uh {disfmarker} I can't think of any re remote controls that I know of that actually light up at all .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh yeah .
Project Manager: Do we do we want uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm that would be good .
User Interface: Like a like a mobile phone ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Mm , yeah that would be good .
Project Manager: Okay . So , Andrew have you had any thoughts yet about how we might market something which there are already millions out there and that we want to uh uh uh t take over the entire um {disfmarker} the planet with ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm , um {vocalsound} especially if we try to sell , what two million of them . Oh sorry , four million of 'em , but uh {disfmarker} I think if w if we market it as as not as not {disfmarker} well this {disfmarker} you c you could either market it as the point of view {disfmarker} we could have the two {disfmarker} we could have parallel marketing s schemes where you've got one where it appeals to people that want to have the new device that looks cool , is fashionable
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: and like you just {disfmarker} it's it's like uh it's one that rather than ra I wan I want rather than a kind of a need relationship with the device ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: but that might {disfmarker} considering the act what the device is for and the nature of some people might not like respond to having a device that they just looks nice , therefore they want it so {disfmarker} make it practical at the same time . I think it's {disfmarker} this is gonna have to appeal to people that want device that can enhance their living room
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: uh but also a device that uh is practically sound .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay , yeah , yeah , well
Marketing: So um , I dunno we'll have to decide which which angle we're gonna go to or both . If you {gap} .
Project Manager: I d I think an any uh any facets that we identify w we aim {disfmarker} need to aim for for all of . Um okay well
Marketing: Mm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: first thoughts on um the the industrial design side .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh I think it's it's {disfmarker} remote controls are kind of a unique object 'cause it's {disfmarker} you depend on them so much , but you don't {disfmarker} i i it's {disfmarker} you sort of just assume they're always gonna work , you don't think of them as a comp like a computer can break down and you're kinda like oh well fair enough there's all these complex things going on , it's gonna {disfmarker} something's gonna get messed up eventually . They they just need to be very very dependable because people sort of take them for granted and then if your remote control breaks it's {gap} {disfmarker} God forbid you actually get up and manually change the channel {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Indeed .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it just {disfmarker} it needs to be very effective , very {disfmarker} always dependable . Uh I don't think we should make it too small I {disfmarker} 'cause I think it needs to {gap} it can't be too big like you were saying big an and huge and um awkward , but also if you make it too small kinda like you know how mobile phones are getting smaller and smaller um , it's just gonna end up under a couch cushion somewhere and um yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} so yes dependable , and have a {gap} good medium range size .
Project Manager: Okay , and um colours , materials ? Kendra , anyone ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well , most {disfmarker} I think most of the remote controls now are either just black or grey ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} .
User Interface: so maybe we should go with something different or be able to {disfmarker} I was just thinking of um {vocalsound} what they're doing with mobile phones now how you can get the different um {disfmarker} what are they called ? Like the face-plates
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm , mm-hmm .
User Interface: that you change so we could have maybe {disfmarker} I don't know if it would be feasible to do something with that , where you can change the face-plates or have kind of a variety
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: so people can get different different things . Have it kind of look how they want to , different colours , things like that ,
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: probably just plastic because that's always the lightest .
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay that's uh {disfmarker} Again I don't think that's ever been done before ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it's uh the sort of {gap} the sort of thing that would get people uh thinking yes that's something that I haven't got and uh might need so . Uh Andrew , any thoughts about uh how we might market interchangeable fronts on on the remote control ?
Marketing: Um , well we could either market it together by getting control in a set colour or with {disfmarker} like you buy it with several uh like you ge you get the f uh the face-plates with it when you buy or as a separate thing , but uh {vocalsound} maybe thinking of that , it's {disfmarker} considering the nature of the device , maybe a second thing {disfmarker} like a second campaign to market new facials for your {disfmarker} to your {disfmarker} might go a bit astray
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: since it is the kind of thing where y you generally get one and then forget about it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Unless you were trying to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well you could come up with like novelty ones , like they've done with the the mobile phones , you can get like different you know scenes from different movies and stuff on the remote control
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh
Industrial Designer: and sorta stagger the release of them
Marketing: it's {disfmarker} that's a that's a good idea .
Industrial Designer: and get people like oh I want that cover on it now and that'll keep them spending money .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Right , okay
Marketing: Yeah true .
Project Manager: I think we've got um a good idea now . We uh {disfmarker} meeting is uh {disfmarker} Needs to be k uh wrapped up fairly quickly . So uh um we've got thirty minutes to start looking at the um at the design in more detail . Um then we'll we will reconvene in in thirty minutes and try to get some of these ideas uh uh more formalised . Uh thank you very much indeed .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} .
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Project Manager: Okay , well I think we're ready to begin . Right , my name's Adam Duguid , we're here because of real reaction , um , we have in the group
Marketing: Oh , Ebenezer Ademesoye . Would you like me to spell that ?
Project Manager: Um , yeah ,
Marketing: S
Project Manager: go for it mate .
Marketing: Um , N_E_Z_
Project Manager: N_ E_ Z_ .
Marketing: E_R_ .
Project Manager: Ebenezer . And your role is ?
Marketing: I'm the Marketing Expert .
Project Manager: You're the Marketing Expert , okay . Next we have ?
Industrial Designer: Tarik Rahman . T_A_R_I_K_ .
Project Manager: T_ R_ I_ K_ . And your role in this is ?
Industrial Designer: Industrial Designer .
Project Manager: Industrial Designer . And , lastly we have ?
User Interface: Uh , Dave Cochrane .
Project Manager: And you're going to be the User Interface ,
User Interface: User Interface Defin Designer , yes .
Project Manager: is it ? Designer . Okay . Right . This is the agenda for today's meeting . As you can see , w opening , acquaintance , tool training , project plan discussion , and closing . Um , we already got n through opening , and partially through acquaintance . So , the reason we're here , we're gonna design a new remote control , as you probably all know . The very broad overview is original , trendy , and user-friendly . Course , we'll have to go into a bit more um detail than that , but uh {vocalsound} personally I think that the original is gonna be a very key aspect to this design . Um , there's a lot of remote controls out there anyway , so we're gonna need something that's really gonna set it apart . This is how today seems to be going to work . We're gonna have the three kay phases , as you've probably already been told , the functional , architectural , and the detailed design . Um {disfmarker} First one's gonna be covering the user requirement spec , technical functions , working design . Second seems to be conceptual components , properties , materials , and the last one is a detailed analysis of our design so far . Of course , you've all got the similar emails , I believe , right . {vocalsound} What can I say ? Ebenezer , you wanna have a {disfmarker} you wanna draw your favourite animal {vocalsound} ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sure . {vocalsound} Whiteboard . 'Kay . S okay . I will make this quick , since we don't have much time . {vocalsound} Um . {vocalsound} 'Kay , so it's not the best picture in the world .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Here we have an elephant . First point , begins with an E_ , same like Ebenezer . Also , elephants have a very good memory , much like myself ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and I can't remember back when I used to live back in Nigeria , but I think I used to have a pet elephant . So elephants are big , strong and gentle , and they have great memories , and they begin with the letter E_ , just like Ebenezer .
Project Manager: Brilliantly done . Thank you . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Thank you .
Project Manager: Tarik , would you like to have a shot at a bit of artistry ?
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Project Manager: Oh , um ,
Marketing: Oh . Oh {vocalsound} oh
Project Manager: you can clip them to your belt .
Industrial Designer: Do we take them off ?
Marketing: I think you ga
Industrial Designer: Oh right ,
Project Manager: You should also l um have your {disfmarker} the lapel mic on as well .
Industrial Designer: okay .
Marketing: The little {disfmarker} The the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ah-ha .
Marketing: Oh that's good , we can clip them on . Okay . Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Now where do I put the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Just um somewhere {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yep , the {gap} , it's just across there , that's it . Yep .
Industrial Designer: Is this supposed to be clipped as well ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: I think so .
Project Manager: It'll follow you if you {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . There you go .
Project Manager: You can probably just stick it in your pocket for now , I wouldn't worry too much . Should have good range .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh , destroying your elephant here .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Uh , here we have a tiger . Uh {disfmarker} I've always loved tigers . They're just {disfmarker} they're big , they're biggest cats , uh I did a project on cats in the wild when I was a kid and uh it was my favourite cat , just 'cause it was {disfmarker} looks the best , the stripes , orange . My dad used to talk about {disfmarker} he's from Bangladesh so he used to tell me all about them when he was {disfmarker} when I was a kid . And uh they're just the most feared of of uh animals in the wild . So uh that's why I like them . Didn't say an anything about me really but {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Excellent , thank you very much . Dave , if you'd like to uh have a dash .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um , the monkey , um . The one f uh {disfmarker} in fact this is a {gap} somewhat oblique reference in fact to uh {disfmarker} well my {disfmarker} I have a three uh three y year old daughter who h who who who is affectionately known as Miss Monkey . Um , monkeys have attitude . Which I think is a good thing . And I mean fr {vocalsound} and from uh from the point of view of sort of the study of human evolution they and other primates are terribly interesting . Um , so I like monkeys . And and th th th th thi thi this one seems to have perhaps more attitude than most .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Cheers . Hardly what I'd call the best drawing in the world but it'll do for now . Also not quite as feared as your average tiger , but uh cats are one of my favourite animals , they're very independent , they're snotty as hell at the best of times , and uh , what can you say , you got to love those qualities in an animal . Right . I think we've all managed to master the whiteboard there by looks of it , so , on to it . Project finance . As you can see , twelve point five Euros per unit . That's not a terrible lot as far as I'm aware , and we're hoping to sell them for twenty five . If we're aiming for fifty million Euros we're gonna have to be selling an awful lot of them .
Marketing: Oh , that was profiting , that was an amount , so that's the amount made ,
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: okay .
Project Manager: Well , fifty million , and if you're making twelve point five Euros on each one , then , awful lot need to be sold .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Now we better actually just get on with the uh the meat of the project . So I'm gonna guess that we've all used remote controls . Any ideas of where you think a new remote control could go into this market ?
User Interface: Well , one thing I'm aware of is , th there uh um at the sort of v very high price end of the market there's there's a em emerging market for sort of touch screen L_C_D_ remotes that can be uh programmed in m much more sophisticated ways than sort of conventional models , so you get the sort of you get um you {vocalsound} you can redesign the interface to your own needs , you can programme in macros , and you get a much greater degree um um I mean you get in these sort of {vocalsound} three in one , five in one , whatevers , but you can get integration between the different uh the the the diff the different things that it's designed to control , to a much greater extent , and you can have one uh you know one macro to turn the uh you know turn the T_V_ to the right channel , get the uh re uh rewind the tape in the V_C_R_ and get it to play once it's rewound , for instance .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Um b it occurs to me there might be a niche for uh for a remote that aimed towards some of that sort of functionality but using a just conventional push button design . And therefore putting it into a um well much lower price bracket .
Project Manager: Okay , yeah , tha that's true , with the price range we're looking at , going for a touch screen would probably be possibly out of our {disfmarker}
User Interface: Absolutely prohibitive ,
Project Manager: yeah .
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: Oh .
Project Manager: But you think uh again something to control multiple units in uh a simple fashion .
User Interface: Yeah , I mean I wouldn't like to say you g {vocalsound} I mean you get ones that you can switch between multiple units , but something that could um operate between multiple units in a more integrated fashion . Some {gap} and ideally something into which it would have some at least limited facility for {vocalsound} um running macros .
Project Manager: Would the the idea something along the lines of , one on button would turn on say the video recorder , the T_V_ , maybe the sound system as well , all in one go , is that kind of {disfmarker}
User Interface: For instance , um let's say oh oh um , or um you know you pr uh you press uh say the play button for the D_V_D_ player and it turns the T_V_ on and onto the right channel as well , um
Project Manager: Okay , that sounds like a a good strong idea . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: 'Kay
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Any takes on this ?
Marketing: Well um I've noticed that uh gaming c is becoming quite popular with television , um when I was younger we used to e play games using our cable , using the cable subscribed the cable providers ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: but our remote controls would get worn out really easily , and {vocalsound} the remote control was not a great kind of keyboar , um keypad , for playing games .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So perhaps one that was more um specialised for game playing or interactive television . They they've recently brought out this new remote control , for people to set their favourite channels , or um to record things . Instead of people entering in what time things start , you simply stri slide a bar to say what time it begins ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: and slide another bar to say what time it ends , you know that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah I've heard {disfmarker} I've seen the bar-code design before ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , it's it's taken out the {disfmarker} Y you don't have to be uh really clever to use a remote control . I think for gaming , you know you want you want some big buttons for up , down , left and right , shoot .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh , you wanna be able to change angles in interactive television , so you need buttons to change the television angle , the camera angles and stuff like that .
Project Manager: Okay , well
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Project Manager: we're beginning to run out of time now , so , we've got a couple of ideas ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: we can {disfmarker} we'll have to work fast , um , alright as you can see we've got thirty minutes until the next meeting , so {vocalsound} we'll have to try and decide on some of the basic functionality , um , how the user interface might work , that'll be a key aspect especially if the idea of um some kind of macros facility because you have to program it , you have to have a lot of response back , or at least some kind . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And we're gonna maybe n try and have to figure out
Marketing: What the user wants uh .
Project Manager: what the user wants , yes .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Um , right . Has anybody got anything they'd like to add at this stage , anything they think that might have been missed so far ?
Industrial Designer: Well when you're talking about gaming and stuff , do you think they should have some sort of stick on it , rather than buttons ?
Marketing: Oh . Okay , {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Like uh control pads , you know of games , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: or is that a bit ridiculous ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I I don't see why not , almost everybody is probably used to a console by now , and all of them incorporate small keypads on them , in fact even the mobile phones these days are beginning to use them as well , so it's probably an interface that most people are used to . Um
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: and that could allow n easy navigation , used as a joystick as well .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . The other key feature that uh that would be a good idea built into it is t is is to make something you know fairly sort of ergonomic , something that just fits {vocalsound} fits as comfortably as possible into the hand . But of course , uh al al also allows for {gap} the possibility of a more sort of slightly unconventional or attractive uh sha shape for it overall , {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Okay . So ,
User Interface: A curve ,
Project Manager: small , stylish , and something that's just a little different .
User Interface: mm-hmm . Something sort of sort of sl slightly sort of biomorphic in form , {vocalsound} uh which it would need to be to sort of conform to the shape of the hand more efficiently anyway .
Project Manager: Okay . That's definitely something that we should be able to do quite easily . I would I would have hoped so anyway . Um , right . I'd say we finish this one up , we get started , I'll get in , I'll write up what we've um kind of quickly done , and I'll get that out to everybody . Yeah ?
Marketing: 'Kay . So .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Project Manager: Um , as far as I'm aware we leave the microphones here , um unless we get told otherwise , and just take the laptops with us .
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Project Manager: All set ? Okay . Cool . Right . So um basically I'm just gonna go over real quickly um some news I've just got from the board on how we're supposed to do with this um {vocalsound} remote control . And then I'm gonna turn over to you guys to make brief presentations um on what you've found and then we'll have a bit of discussion . So basically uh what I've just found out from the board I dunno if you guys got this email as well but it needs to be television only . So no {disfmarker} we're not doing D_V_D_ , we're not doing anything else ,
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: it's just gonna be a television remote . {vocalsound} Um it also needs to have the company colours included in it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um so that's red and black . And it has to have the slogan , case you guys forget the slogan it's , we put fashion in electronics . Um and no teletext . I'm not sure what teletext is but I'm assuming you guys do , so we don't wanna include that um in this particular design . {vocalsound} For reasons that I don't really know . There's {disfmarker} but it's the board so there you go . So basically um given those guidelines which will have some effect on how we design we'll discuss it later I mean 'cause it's television only we'll be able to change our uh {vocalsound} um well we can s sacrifice more function for a better television remote . {vocalsound} Anyway . So I'm gonna turn over to the Industrial Designer uh to go ahead and make a presentation on {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay . So do I unplug this bit here ?
Project Manager: Oh , right yeah .
Marketing: Gotta plug you in .
Project Manager: Yep . Might have to hit function F_ eight but it looks like it's gonna come up . Yep . Cool .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Right . That's page one of my presentation .
Project Manager: Brilliant .
Marketing: Very nice . For your first PowerPoint it's lovely .
Industrial Designer: So the uh method . We're gonna have to understand how remote controls work and res uh successfully complete this project . Um remote control works as follows . This is all pretty basic stuff you guys . Um sends message to another system , so there's an energy source involved in that like a battery or solar power , something along those lines , there's an integrated circuit , which is the microchip , um and that actually compose the messages and usually the way a a remote control works is it sends infrared bits to another system . A user interface controls the chip , basically that's the casing and the buttons and um accordingly the messages as well . So my findings , um I just did a preliminary study here and uh I found that too much metal in remote design could potentially cause interference with the ability of the remote to send commands . And too much metal can cause remotes to behave unexpectedly by receiving false signals . Um too much metal is used sometimes and people pick up radio signals and the like , and there's also the possibility of the remote catching on fire and injuring the customer , just think of those lawsuits , that'd be really bad .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Therefore I suggest primarily plastic construction . Um , components . Just some ideas that I had , um , energy source , it's kinda hip to be eco friendly so I thought maybe we could do something with solar power with an alkaline battery backup . Um the user interface , I was {disfmarker} since we can't use metal I was thinking maybe a high grade recycled plastic .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: The chip , um , silicon based chip I don't really see any way around that , we can't really be different in that respect . Um , the sender well I'm thinking infrared 'cause it is the industry standard , multi channel , that's a word I made up , I don't really know what it means .
Project Manager: 'Kay . Fair enough .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh PAL and N_T_S_C_ compatible and uh probably a two hundred foot range .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Uh and the receiver of course is any number of electronic devices . Um but in this case it'll only be T_V_s . Um personal preferences , I really think that we should use plastic as opposed to metal , um , the company simply can't afford this kinds of lawsuits
Marketing: Fine .
Industrial Designer: which adm admittedly is gonna come at the cost of a certain aesthetic value ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Is is there a way that we can use um modern types of polymers , or mo modern types of plastics
Industrial Designer: 'cause we were thinking {disfmarker}
Project Manager: that maybe do have some kind of aesthetic value um like if a white {disfmarker} like if we talk about like well like on the lapt on these laptops and other ones they use a a pretty nice ,
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: It needs , yeah .
Project Manager: you can do i is there some kind of nice colo der quality plastic that we can work with ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah that shouldn't be a problem . Um for example the plastic they have on your laptop there is something that's perfectly possible for us to do .
Project Manager: Okay , okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's the end of my presentation .
Marketing: Cool .
Project Manager: Great . Thank you very much Nathan . {vocalsound} Um if next we can have the um User Interface Developer go ahead and make a brief presentation that'd be great as well .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: S plug yourself in here . Mm . {vocalsound} Um hit function F_ eight real quickly , hold down {disfmarker} Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Looks like you're in okay .
Industrial Designer: Is it plugged in well ? There it goes . Computer adjusting .
User Interface: Th
Project Manager: There you go . Sweet .
Marketing: There you go .
User Interface: Well so . Here we have a uh my technical functions design presentation . Um so a few of the requirements we need here . Uh we n basically need to operate an electronic device , it needs to be universal um and possibly uh operate several different types of devices although we now uh find that uh that that's no problem .
Project Manager: Yeah sorry I couldn't get that g to use before .
User Interface: Um so some of my findings . Um basically wanna send messages uh to a television set . Um that would be any number of different things uh such as switch on the television , uh switch to the next channel , that sort of thing , I think we're all quite uh quite uh intelligent and know know what a normal remote control does . Um {vocalsound} now some of the other things I found is a a complicated remote control sorry that we can't quite see my red there very well
Project Manager: Oh yeah look at that .
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: but uh this remote control has many functions um so it can do a lot of things but it uh it is quite complicated
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and most users will find it uh find that they won't use most of the functions because they don't know how to use them and don't wanna take the time to learn how to do it . As you also notice it's quite a boring design . Um . Another remote control , slightly different , it's a simpler remote control uh many less buttons but uh has many fewer functions , um m much easier for the user to manipulate and use . Um it also has a bit of a cheap look and it's also quite boring . So
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Nice .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: my personal preferences .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Revolutionise the idea of uh a remote control . Um so attain the functionality of a complicated device but use a simple formatted display uh for the user to to work with . And I was gonna add another uh slide here but I didn't quite have time there .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: Um . Just incorporating some of the ideas that we had previously like uh having multiple face but it's uh {gap} .
Project Manager: Great . Thanks for that Ron .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Kay
Marketing: Does that mean I'm up ?
Project Manager: yep that's you .
Marketing: I think so . Okay .
User Interface: I can plug you in .
Marketing: Oh that would be perfect . Thank you . Slide show up and running .
Project Manager: Give it a little bit .
Marketing: Or not . Uh . Oh there we go . Perfect . Okay . So this is me . Um basically I was looking through some marketing reports that we've got and we had a usability test where we were actually sort {disfmarker} like watching a hundred people {vocalsound} use T_V_ remotes and see what it is that they're using and then they filled out a questionnaire about what they like and what they don't about their general T_V_ remote control practices . Um pretty much through testing we were finding out that most of the time , everybody's used to using changing the channel , turning it on , using the volume , m the majority of the time that's all that's going on , the other functions happen , for some people they're important , but the primary uses are really really basic . Um and so big complicated remotes like one we saw in the last presentation are really not the general public's use , they're not using a lot of it , they don't need it , they even find it frustrating when there are all those buttons that they don't know what to do with . {vocalsound} And um we also found out that uh fifty percent of our people , their {disfmarker} the worst thing about a remote is how often they lose it . And then they can't find it in the room . So I think what we were talking about with a pager or something , will really come into play with a lot of these people . {vocalsound} Um there's also a survey about what they liked about remotes ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and pretty much they all think they're hideous and not very useful , and the younger demographics are all really interested in voice recognition options . I don't know if that's something we're ready to look into technically , that's up to the design people , but it is s something worth thinking about , especially since the younger demographic's obviously the one that's gonna keep growing , so if that's the direction we're headed in it's something to think about . Um but basically it really is the primary functions and getting it to look nice , which are the standards . {vocalsound} So it's a good start for us .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's great . Thank you Sarah . Right . So um
Marketing: Need to unplug this ?
Project Manager: yep I'll just uh switch that back here .
Marketing: Need it back .
Project Manager: I'll finish up with just a bit of discussion plan on for the next phase .
Marketing: There you go .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Right so I think we've covered most of these important questions through this um {vocalsound} through you guys's presentations um {vocalsound} we've got uh y the Industrial Designer suggests uh or pretty much emphatically suggested that we need to go with plastic . {vocalsound} Um Sarah , she's recommended that we go for simpler functions , so fewer functions um but we need to decide who are we selling this to , you s your stats suggested that seventy five percent of people under thirty five wanted , thought about voice control ,
Marketing: Oh right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} um so do we wanna go for that , or do we want to go for an older demographic , and my thought is {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} we've got w if we're gonna go for a sleek look I mean we are putting the fashion in electronics {vocalsound} um . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} We're not catering to the pensioners of the world I don't think so .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes . So maybe this {disfmarker} we should look into this younger demographic . Um . So
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} uh we need to wonder ah h about how we make it better and smaller and faster um think we're constrained to plastics very well , we've got this idea , Ron was saying we need to think about uh revolutionising the way it's looking um ,
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: which might be easier given that we're going for simpler function and that we're only going for a telly .
Marketing: Uh .
Project Manager: Um so um . How {disfmarker} th this voice operation thing is {disfmarker} I think is a good idea um assuming that it's doable , um at least for the basic controls , maybe we can balance it that way , you know we can see .
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Okay you can't say record alias tonight at seven P_M_
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but we might be able to say um {vocalsound} volume up .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right . I think it would be possible to uh combine the locator device and the voice recognition technology .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh . That could work . I like that .
Industrial Designer: With a simple command like locate . And then it could start to beep
Marketing: Yeah . Something very basic .
Industrial Designer: and
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Right .
Industrial Designer: therefore be found .
User Interface: Sounds good .
Marketing: Is that only gonna be within our two hundred foot range then ?
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah I think that's very doable .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: The difficulty wh would be in um I think like i you couldn't speak into the remote that you're trying to find . 'Kay you have something that picks up a voice from far away {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's a good point .
Project Manager: If it's hidden under the couch {disfmarker} but then again you have this wee {disfmarker} this wee thing you know that's just a little chip or whatever that has the page button , maybe that could be voice activated too .
User Interface: A little sticky pad to stick on top of your uh television .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: And you just say something to {disfmarker} into that
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: and it
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: finds your {disfmarker}
Marketing: K {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Or an isolated magnet or something like , or you know something that wouldn't interfere I don't know that'd be the technical thing
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: but {disfmarker} yeah I like that , I like that , the voice recognition for the paging system .
User Interface: {vocalsound} The other thing is we might be able to handle the simplicity of a remote control and kind of put the more complicated things into a voice control . So it could be sold to both the younger market and the older market .
Marketing: True .
User Interface: And the younger market could use kind of the voi voice control method and the older market might might k
Marketing: Making it just an option ?
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: exactly and might consider the older market could use the simpler design with the traditional buttons and what not .
Marketing: Yeah . Right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I was thinking uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Are we still thinking about this screen {disfmarker} sorry .
Industrial Designer: Oh go ahead .
Marketing: Go ahead . The uh if we're gonna do this touch pad screen thing , it would be still , do we know if that's an option technically right now to that ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: 'S definitely an option technically . I've looked into uh costs of uh touch screen methods and what not ,
Marketing: Okay . Okay .
User Interface: they seem to be uh you know almost as cheap as a button method at this point .
Marketing: We're doing okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: 'Cause it seems like an interesting option especially because then you could have like your primary screen just be these you know four or five basic functions , you can have
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: menu options or something to have all these other complicated voice recognition , settings , things that you're not gonna use every day and that a lot of people aren't gonna use but it is an option there for this hi-tech market that sort of re is the sleek thing we're going for .
Industrial Designer: Gotta wonder though , if we're adding so much technology to this one remote , are we still gonna be able to meet out twelve pou our twelve fifty Euro you know goal for selling these things .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: True . Worth looking into .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It seems like , we're not gonna be able to handle all these functions with just one microchip .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The microchip is probably the most expensive part of the the whole mechanism .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: True . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So it's just something to consider .
Project Manager: Absolutely . Mm 'kay um well yeah I guess we'll cross that bridge um in a la slightly later stages of development um but yeah I know , that's perfectly viable question . Mm 'kay um so I'm seeing that we're gonna just basically focus on this young demographic group , aim it at them , but then in a sense that its bells and whistles are available for anybody who wants them but basically we'll make a sleek simple functioned um uh remote control .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um I think this voice recognition thing is a we've got a market for it uh I don't think there's too many ,
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: we'd more or less be cornering the market on it as well , we don't have many um .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I appear to have lost my microphone . Mm . {vocalsound} Right um we don't have many people {vocalsound} or there's not very many competitors out there that do that so cool . Um right . I guess we've c we've touched on most of this . The idea of a paging function , a touch screen , and face plates . Um . The thing with {disfmarker} I see {vocalsound} would there not be a {vocalsound} we'd have to maybe sacrifice the face plates for a touch screen ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um I'm not sure that's sincerely correct ,
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: I think if you kind of take the example of a mobile phone that uh trying to pass a portion of the device is not interchangeable whereas the surrounding portions are interchangeable .
Marketing: Mm . Just the casing .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: We could have the casing , the the face plates .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Back to the uh the cost {disfmarker} the material . {vocalsound} We have to ask whether we're going to include a certain number of face plates with the package ? That's something I w for {disfmarker} say we're including three or four face plates , it's gonna drive the cost up .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: And the other question is , if we do include them are we really in a position to evaluate that market ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We haven't done any tests on face plates and whether {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: See if there {disfmarker} if there's even interest out there .
Project Manager: Okay . Right .
Industrial Designer: Off the top of my head it sounds kind of like a gimmick that wouldn't really go anywhere .
Project Manager: Yeah 'cause then ha you would have to {disfmarker} who all
Marketing: Mm . Right .
Project Manager: it's not like with cell phones like where you have a {disfmarker} you know Nokia model X_ and then ten people make face plates for it , we'd be just our model of pho of t remote control . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Well in the publicity of a face plate on a phone is you have it out and around , it is sort of emblematic whereas you're just sit at home ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: so unless somebody comes over to watch T_V_ {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Well hopefully some people have people coming t over to w to hang out at your house
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: True . True . True .
User Interface: and most people have their televisions in the living room . Uh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright well we can {disfmarker} we can discuss that one further when we think about um whether th when we do costs and so forth , um .
Marketing: Yeah . Oh yeah .
User Interface: Sure .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} True , if plastic is dead cheap and if we're making the whole thing out of plastic anyway um {vocalsound} yeah we'll cross that bridge later um but yeah we will have to evaluate what's most important . Um I think we've had a bit of discussion already on this thing , n s there any other questions comments that came up in these presentations ?
User Interface: Well have we confirmed that we're gonna go ahead with a uh touch screen um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah yeah okay . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Interface ?
Project Manager: Yeah I think that would be best . Let's based on what sh on what you guys have all said to me let's go for a plastic built or uh b plastic cased 'cause tha tha that's easy on the cost , try to look for some kind of high quality recycled plastic as you recommended and I think that's a great idea . With a touch screen for the basic functions . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} And we'll yeah tha let's provisionally {disfmarker} let's go for a touch screen one with several submenus um for possible extra stuff that one basically put the channel and the on and off switch on the touch screen . Um do we have {disfmarker} Mm wait a minute it occurs to me that if we have a touch screen people are going to have to recharge their remote controls . {vocalsound} Yet at the same time that might help for this whole complaint of it being lost .
Marketing: True . 'Cause it would have a docking base ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . But then again that costs as well .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So these new lithium batteries they last twenty years {vocalsound} even with the touch screen ?
Project Manager: Do they ? Okay .
User Interface: Those new ones .
Industrial Designer: Can we afford to include one of those ?
Marketing: Can we afford that ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And will somebody buy it if we don't ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well I I don't think yeah I can't see anybody buying a lap a remote control that they have to plug in so we'd have to see some kind of new battery technology .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Okay so let's go with a um touch screen {vocalsound} with um some kind of {disfmarker} you know with with some kind of cutting edge battery technology {disfmarker}
Marketing: For twelve Euros ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah well hey you know well it's it's worth looking into , if not we can always default to just doing a a well presented plastic simple
Marketing: It is . Fair enough .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you know so {disfmarker} you know . Well yeah I mean
Marketing: The basics .
Project Manager: you can put the {disfmarker} we could I I dunno I mean I suppose we could put the the basics on the centre easiest you know , you know people know the channel and volume function make them large and easy to get at and then the the other the other bits and bobs you know go through menu um w we'll do the aesthetics .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Okay so we'll {gap} touch screen and the battery , focus on um {vocalsound} uh presentation .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} it's th uh with this voice recognition option as well um just as for the simple functions the um the on off , channels , volume , um
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: and um a small paging function . Even if you can't do voice recognition for the paging you know just some kind of simple button that's just a I guess another infrared signal to the remote control and while {disfmarker} to emit some kind of paging . Just a beep .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Um right so any comments ? Thoughts before we break into {disfmarker} go into the next round of individual work on this .
Industrial Designer: Since we're doing uh touch screen , do we wanna look into the possibility of people being able to input different types of skins for the you know the actual interface part of it and things like that ? Or is it just gonna be one touch screen for everybody .
User Interface: Be interesting .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: What what would be on that touch screen ? 'Cause you said earlier that we have to think about company colours and um
Marketing: {vocalsound} And {gap} oh .
Industrial Designer: logo or something or motto , I can't remember exactly what you said .
Marketing: Yeah the {vocalsound} the fashion
User Interface: We put fashion into electronics .
Marketing: do . Yeah .
Project Manager: W it's my understanding that if you were going to do a skin you'd need to have some way for people to download or import skins into the remote control .
Marketing: Right , and then you're dealing with ports and cords and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah I think perhaps {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: 'S too much .
Project Manager: good idea but yeah
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think that that one m might just be um and they just {disfmarker} yeah I think that one might just be out of the range for this particular {disfmarker}
Marketing: For now .
Project Manager: a P_D_A_ would {disfmarker} they would {disfmarker} makes a lot of sense for a P_D_A_ 'cause you're gonna be using it to connect up to things anyway but {disfmarker} I dunno , what do you guys think ?
Industrial Designer: Think we just need to come up with a nice black and red interface on the touch screen .
Marketing: Yeah . Nice .
Industrial Designer: That'd be okay .
User Interface: Yeah . Uh I I'm I'm in agreement with that , I'm wondering how we're gonna get uh we put fashion into electronics onto this device .
Marketing: Um . Well but if we're gonna use a touch screen where it's gonna come on like on your cell phone it'll have your your carrier provider name come up first like while it's loading
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: and then it goes away , perhaps it could be like a temporary {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Comes on every time you turn it on and then that's it 'cause it is a bit much to have it like engraved on the back or something I think .
Industrial Designer: Mm . True .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm hoping for a subliminal maybe half a millisecond as it turns on . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Y {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah I know I d it seems like it would suffice to have just the R_R_ on there .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Jus
Marketing: Yeah you would think .
Project Manager: But apparently not .
Marketing: But .
Project Manager: So .
Industrial Designer: People aren't gonna want their remote to boot up and to see flashing things come on .
Marketing: If it comes from above .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: They just want it to be on and ready to go .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well fair enough . Um and yeah that would help the battery life too and if it {disfmarker} the remote they do have to press a button for the remote to turn on . But then again who wants to turn on a remote control . Kind of if i
User Interface: Well all you have to do is touch the screen and it automatically goes on .
Project Manager: Oh
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: to wake up okay or go into like a dormant mode .
User Interface: Yep . Goes into a sleep mode .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Oh yeah I like that I like the idea of um putting the logo in the boot up screen , nice . Um . Um cool so any last things before we break ? Alright . Fair enough . Sounds good .
Marketing: We're good ?
Project Manager: I'm gonna save th a copy of this in case you guys need any reminders . I'm gonna save a copy of this and the minutes that I'll do it in a second and put them in the shared folder for later reference .
User Interface: I've put my files in the shared folder as well .
Project Manager: Brilliant .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's fab guys . Cool .
| |
doc_10
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Project Manager: Welcome back .
Industrial Designer: I'm sorry to be late .
Project Manager: Welcome back everybody .
User Interface: Yeah . Thanks .
Project Manager: So this meeting agenda will be the detailed design meeting . And uh opening and uh P_M_s {gap} of the meet minutes , uh prototype presentation from uh Christine and uh Agnes .
Industrial Designer: Agnes , yes .
Project Manager: Yes and uh evaluation criteria . The finance , it's uh from my side , from the management , and uh production evaluation . Then uh closing . So we have forty minutes to discuss and uh finalise and close the product and project and to move further , okay , so {disfmarker} Okay , let's talk about uh maybe first uh for the prototype .
User Interface: Mm , okay .
Project Manager: So I handle to {disfmarker}
User Interface: I've done a presentation , but it pretty much covers work that we've both done , so if I'm missing anything , Christine can just correct me .
Project Manager: So shall I go to {disfmarker} sorry .
Industrial Designer: Uh thank you , so you did a PowerPoint presentation , good for you . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yep . S Okay , let's go to A_M_I_ .
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's not the biggest PowerPoint presentation in the world , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So in two or three or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Three . Um . {vocalsound} No it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Probably . Technical pa I would think .
User Interface: think it's the last one . No , then this is {vocalsound} the la yeah , that one , final design .
Marketing: Ha .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: It is named appropriately , you just couldn't see the name .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um okay , can I have the mouse ?
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Thanks . Alright , so from {disfmarker} when we were discussing specifying the case in the last meeting , we decided that we wanted an ergonomic shape , the material that we chose was wood , and uh the colour would be customisable , 'cause you can stain the wood whatever colour . Um , so in terms of function , you have to be able to turn the T_V_ on and off , volume and channel control , menu control , voice recognition control , and we've incorporated the L_C_D_ screen on the flip panel as part of the design , if we figure out it's too expensive , well then you just take it off . {vocalsound} Um , so {vocalsound} to unveil our lovely product . This is our remote control , with the flip panel as you can see .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So if you lift up the panel , you can see the lovely yellow L_C_D_ display . {vocalsound} Um , this is actually hard to do . The yellow button you have is the on off button , so it's really big , hard to miss . You have the the red um triangles are the toggles for changing the volume . So up {disfmarker} volume up , down {disfmarker} volume down . The green are the channel changing . {vocalsound} S And it's one of those very light , very touchable displays . And then you have the numeric pad in the dark blue at the bottom , and on the right-hand side you have the access to the menu on the T_V_ , and on the left-hand side you have the the the ability to turn off the voice recognition . So this is pretty much what we had on the white board the last time .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So .
Industrial Designer: Um and uh I could {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah the d
User Interface: Additional feature on the back is that you can have your own customised backing and I suppose you could do the same thing on the flip case on the front . So that you can really make this a highly highly customisable remote control .
Industrial Designer: We haven't um uh specified where the speaker or the microphone will be placed . That depends on the uh s design of the circuit board inside and uh what room is left um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think the microphone is on on the top , uh on the middle , the {disfmarker} under the flip .
Industrial Designer: Yes , okay . Uh-huh .
Project Manager: So that will be the safe , so p any {disfmarker} the chip {disfmarker} it's not on the chip because you need to have microphone {gap} to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No , I mean it depends on the design of the circuit board .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: But it shouldn't be under the flip either , because you can have the remote control closed , but you still might want to activate it by voice .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh it's it's {disfmarker} Yeah , but uh uh my opinion I think it's better under the flip because whenever you want to uh the talk , okay , so then you can speak then you can close it . But if you put it on the on the flip , okay , then uh technical I don't think it's uh feasible , 'cause most of the time you speak then it will be recognised .
User Interface: But if you've already got the remote control in your hand you need to open the flip to use the voice , why use the voice , why not just use your hand ? I mean the whole point of the voice is that if the remote control is sitting there and I'm too lazy to reach over and pick it up , I can just use my voice .
Industrial Designer: Maybe I've got my hand in the popcorn bowl and I'm holding my cup of Coca-Cola in the other hand .
User Interface: Yeah . And you don't wanna let go of either one . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I don't wanna say . Louder . {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I mean it doesn't have to be on the flip , it can be on the side somewhere .
Marketing: Can also be on the side .
Project Manager: Yeah , the sides maybe is good .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So , I mean I can pass this around if anyone wants to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes . So it's maybe good idea .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , y better you pass it around with a napkin . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} No , because y you can easily put a microphone on the side that would have no problem would haven't been {disfmarker} not be damaged or anything , and it'd be accessible all the time to voice .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yes . Yeah {vocalsound} .
User Interface: Yeah , exactly .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So it's maybe good idea . S s
Industrial Designer: It's um {disfmarker} It's um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Compliments to the artist .
Industrial Designer: You need to work on the weight a little bit . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Uh {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Okay . S {vocalsound} I'm fine , I'm satisfi
User Interface: And maybe the shape of the buttons ,
Project Manager: I'm satisfied .
User Interface: the little egg shapes aren't the most economical , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We're glad you're satisfied .
Project Manager: Of course it's it's it's looks more heo heavy , but I think when it's completely {gap} maybe it's a less weight .
User Interface: Yeah . I mean this is plasticene .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: There's only so much you can do . We could have possibly made it a lot thinner as well . {vocalsound} But {disfmarker} And part of the thing is m a lot of people say that they don't like something that's too light , because they don't feel like they have enough control over it .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So I mean maybe this is excessively heavy , but I think it needs to have some weight ,
Project Manager: Yep .
User Interface: it needs to feel like you're still holding something . {vocalsound} So that's pretty much it for our presentation actually .
Project Manager: That's your uh prototype model ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , that's good , thank you very much .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So any comments or uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well , the prototype is is very well within the design and ideas that we've we've talked about on the previous meetings .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Now it goes into this next phase as the financial uh marketing uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes , that uh {disfmarker} So I'll come back to the {disfmarker} {gap} So evaluation criteria , I think uh that will be good , so then let's come to the finance uh , I have some uh calculations which I made uh as for uh the budget . So here you can uh look like uh the energy {gap} and uh {gap} dynamo and uh kinetic and solar cells . Uh it's optional , somewhat optional and Ed wants the chip on print , that's what uh we were talking about that .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So then we have sample sensor and sample speaker , then uh we have the wood material , then special colour and push button . So it's uh {disfmarker} actually , our budget was uh twelve point five Euro , but uh it's coming to nine point nine five Euro , so we are under uh {disfmarker} below the budget , okay , so still we are saving some money . I think it's a good figure . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes , great I {disfmarker} I'm surprised .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Congratulations . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Than thank you . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well we haven't come to mine yet , so {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh , okay
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: . It's gonna cost a long way to c you know , cost a lot of money to market it , is it ?
Marketing: we're gonna have a bit of difference of opinion , yes . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So maybe it's {disfmarker} for some money we can utilise for our uh marketing , for the sales , okay , and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well , it just depends on if we're gonna add a {vocalsound} o on this pr provisionary cost analysis , we do not have a L_C_ display . L_C_ display is gonna be very expensive ,
User Interface: No we do , but it's not filled in .
Marketing: it's gonna be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's not .
Industrial Designer: Thirty .
Marketing: It's not {disfmarker} it doesn't say .
User Interface: It's number thirty .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: We don't have the price up there ,
User Interface: Oh , yeah , yeah ,
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: you're right , sorry , yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: okay , so if we add approximately two to three Euro per remote , now we're up around about twelve , twelve and a half as to what uh the company had initially uh requested . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So that means we can put the uh {disfmarker} the L_C_D_ in , yeah .
Marketing: Display in . But as far as production um I'm putting up a question because we're talking about profit also , and in mine you'll see uh {vocalsound} the problem with uh our survey , the p the possibility that how many units can be sold , what percentage of the market , etcetera etcetera because that {gap} has to be taken in into consideration .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh this is just production cost , it is not uh advertising cost , it's not transportation cost uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes , so still uh we have twelve point five Euro .
Marketing: {vocalsound} And that will inflate quite a bit the cost of the uh {disfmarker} the cost of the unit for the company .
Project Manager: Yes . {gap} Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yes . Yep .
User Interface: Um-hmm .
Marketing: So to come up with what the company wants is a fifty million Pound profit , we're gonna have to go a long ways .
Project Manager: Yes . This we are talking about one unit , okay , so when it go into the quantity , okay , and the cost will come down .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Although customisation , because this is being done , you know , the on {disfmarker} on-order basis , it might be uh the the quantity won't m won't uh
Marketing: Slightly .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: It's gonna be very hard to reduce .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: the circuit board will b you're right , would be in producing quantity , but the cost of the case would uh {vocalsound} be fixed at the {disfmarker} Uh you got some pretty cheap labour that can do this case for one Euro .
Marketing: That's not bad . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's really {disfmarker} that's the cost of the material and lab wow , that's really outstanding .
Project Manager: Yep . Yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} But anyhow , still we are under control , okay , so what uh I will do is I will try to negotiate with the vendors , okay , to get uh the production cost less , okay , so then we can save some money , okay , to put into th our marketing or uh you know the promotions , whatever , okay , so that uh I will look after . I will speak to the management and how to get uh you know some more uh cost down .
Marketing: If we can go to to my display . And we'll come back to yours
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: just to give everybody an idea of the market . So now I'm gonna scare everybody out of this project . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: If I'm still here .
Project Manager: You're in four ?
Marketing: {gap} Yep The four gives me {disfmarker} it's gotta be uh TrendWatch .
Project Manager: TrendWatch .
Industrial Designer: Is this the same one you did before ?
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: It shouldn't be
User Interface: That's {disfmarker} no , I think it's the same one .
Marketing: if it's not {disfmarker} it's not the right one . No , no we g no , that's the same one . You have to go back and find another one . Whatever name it popped up under .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Functional .
Marketing: Uh functional , try functional , it might not be it either , but we'll see .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It looks like it , there's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} S Yeah .
Marketing: Yep , that's it . So we'll go screen by screen .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Although {vocalsound} since uh we need to have some type of idea on a market uh we had independent study that says it {disfmarker} this this market has an availability to absorb eight mi eight million units per year . Okay ? Our internal company evaluation puts it between eight to nine million which is approximately the same as the independent study .
Project Manager: Yep . {vocalsound}
Marketing: So if we continue , we'll look at the findings . Next screen . {vocalsound} Which means that uh if we have a target of two million would the company has to take twenty five percent of the market in the first year ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: which is actually a tremendous amount .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , no kidding . {vocalsound}
Marketing: No kidding , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mayb maybe they already expected something .
Marketing: So , if we put an inflated price of fifty Euro at a production cost that cannot exceed twenty-five Euro , okay , we're already in that that price , okay ,
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: with transport , promotion , labour , because we hav {gap} gi included the promotion in the cost , transport for the material to the stores or whatever how however we're gonna break this down between our our retailers .
User Interface: Um-hmm .
Marketing: Twenty-five percent of the market to get to two million units . At two million units , we have to have a profit of twenty-five Euro per unit to get to the fifty million unit Eu Euro profit .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Yep .
Marketing: Okay ? So , obviously we w w I just did a run down the evaluation of the form , the fan uh the fancy stylishness of the {disfmarker} of the unit , the ease of use , speech recognition , cost , we've gone through these . Now , the company must evaluate the feasibility of being able to take enough of the market to justify in production . Or we project this over two years , but being that the market changes very very quickly , maybe there's no more interest in buying this thing in eighteen months from now .
Project Manager: Yes . Yep . Of course .
Marketing: So , now we have to come up with a decision .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Can the company sell two million units ?
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: Can it sell it for fifty Euros ?
Industrial Designer: Could could I go to findings ?
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Uh uh um I would uh like to explore the possibility of using um alternative um delivery and sales channel which would be um to use the internet for promotion and ordering
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I was thinking the same thing , yeah .
Industrial Designer: and then to drop-ship the p product to the customer's residence .
User Interface: Directly .
Industrial Designer: That way you have no storage , you have no um {disfmarker} you do have transportation , still have the labour cost ,
User Interface: Um-hmm .
Industrial Designer: but you don't have the transport to the uh point of sale .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: The point of sale is online .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: To the agents .
User Interface: Yeah . You can do a shipping centre somewhere , or strategically place shipping centres to minimise distance costs .
Industrial Designer: Right , like Amazon . In fact , we should sell through Amazon ,
Project Manager: Yes . Or eBay , or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: don't you think ? Or eBay , yeah .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: There's an idea .
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah , that's a good idea .
Industrial Designer: Going with um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: To impro more profit and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: S Upscale technology .
Project Manager: Yeah , yes .
Industrial Designer: Ah , we we're do you know , selling a unique product uh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well .
User Interface: That actually makes more sense if we're gonna make it so highly customisable , 'cause on the web people can look at the different options they have , see maybe what other people have done , what the range of possibility as ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: There are several companies that have gone that way .
User Interface: whereas if you're in a store , you can't {disfmarker} unless you're a highly imaginative person , you may not really know what it is you want ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: whereas on the web , if you have a bunch of pictures , it can sort of trigger ideas and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . And you can even have an {disfmarker} a movie that you can rotate the object and look at the di the only thing that you're missing really is the weight .
User Interface: Yeah . The weight and feel .
Marketing: Weight , the feel of the product , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We're getting used to that . It's not quite like trying on a shoe , but people are getting used to buying things online that they can't touch before buying .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: There are several that have gone through with the watches , too . You can customise a watch , you can see how it is at the f at the end of the production ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh-huh .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: you can change it uh {disfmarker} There's a lot of online that's {disfmarker} that is doing this now .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: And when you're rotating , you'll look behind and look this way uh {disfmarker} it's possible to do with this , maybe there's a possibility of selling more than two million units in one year , which could {vocalsound} you know , feasibili feasibility uh lower the price of the unit .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: We can .
Industrial Designer: Great .
Project Manager: I don't think that's uh not possible , it's uh {disfmarker} okay then , l uh let's wait for the production , okay , then uh you can evaluate the product , so how it looks like technically and uh how it look like uh the real .
User Interface: What turnaround time do we have ?
Project Manager: T
User Interface: 'Cause I mean production evaluation can be very very quick or very very long .
Project Manager: Oh but {disfmarker} Yes it's it's very quick , of course . It will uh come back in two weeks , okay , it will be ready in two weeks .
Industrial Designer: Works for me .
Project Manager: For evaluation , okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Prototypes , you mean .
Project Manager: Yes , the prototype uh {disfmarker} prototype product evaluation .
Industrial Designer: In um {disfmarker} We probably should do some market tests uh once we have the prototypes and do some orders and things like that and test-market it .
Project Manager: Yes . Yes . Yes .
Marketing: Well , obviously .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm that'd have to be thrown out on the market for people to get an idea ,
Project Manager: So you can take a minimum two weeks to a maximum four weeks .
Marketing: to see {disfmarker} get get their {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Think minimum two weeks if we're gonna develop prototypes and then try to take them to different places and see how people use {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: it's not a trivial task .
Project Manager: Yeah , because we we are not going to do it in uh our factory , okay , so we can give it a product evalua
User Interface: No no . We definitely shouldn't do it in our factory . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes , yes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So we'll do it in the other place , and I don't think it's take more than four weeks time . Or uh {disfmarker} Okay , so then the real production we will start once we product evaluation , okay , then uh it's approve from uh the technical team and uh your team , okay , uh from the management , then we can launch in the market . Hm ?
Industrial Designer: Any outstanding {disfmarker} {vocalsound} ?
Project Manager: S Any any other uh questions or uh comments to be discuss ?
Industrial Designer: No , I'm
User Interface: What ab
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} go ahead .
Marketing: I think we pretty much covered everything .
Project Manager: Okay , so then uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Did you have something ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well I was just wondering about if we're gonna do a product evaluation then what about time for redesign if the users come back and tell us no this is bad , this is bad , we want this done differently .
Project Manager: Okay uh , let's take like this . Let's proceed with this model , okay , for the for the marketing direction , okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So no more changes will be made , okay , in this {disfmarker} the basic design . Okay ? So we will introduce m this model and uh let's introduce in the market and let's take the feedback from the customers , then we can uh go for the
Industrial Designer: Second generation .
Project Manager: second generation .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . There's no end , there's not limit .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: The problem is there might not be a second generation if the first generation flops for some silly reason that we haven't thought of .
Project Manager: Every every custom
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well , then it may not be .
Project Manager: Okay . Well , every customer , okay , they have their own ideas , they have their own test , okay , so there's no end , there's no limit .
Marketing: Like people don't like wood . {vocalsound}
User Interface: No , but there's a difference between releasing a product that has been minimally tested and fine-tuned to suit a general range of requirements versus releasing a product that we think will work but we don't really have anything to back it up .
Marketing: {gap} very specific .
Project Manager: Yeah , so that's the reason you are here for uh the design , okay , I hope you made a good design .
User Interface: Yes , but I'm not everybody .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I mean the whole point of user evaluation is to see what real people need . We have our own motivations in mind , we have our own ideas in mind , but that doesn't mean that that's what's gonna sell .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , but uh see , we ought to take a few considerations , okay , one is the price consideration , one is future consideration , okay , like uh you can eat uh {disfmarker} you can all eat more chi I can eat more chilli , okay , so i it's a depends on the individual taste , you know ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so we have we have to balance somewhere .
User Interface: Yeah , of course . I'm just trying to point out that I think that your evaluation and redesign turnaround time is too short {disfmarker} well you have no redesign {disfmarker} not you personally , but in the project we have no redesign time and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Our project doesn't {disfmarker} um
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Ed , d do you know what season of the year or time of the year is the most important for T_V_ remote control sales ?
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Would it be the Christmas season by any chance ?
Project Manager: The sports time .
Industrial Designer: Sports season . Which sport season ?
Marketing: Right before the Eur {vocalsound} the World Cup . {vocalsound} World soccer . World Cup soccer ,
Project Manager: Football .
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} so
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: they need those things that they have their hands g occupied and they need to be able to talk to the con remote control .
Project Manager: Football .
Industrial Designer: maybe what {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So I think what we need to do is perhaps to synchronise the final {disfmarker} the the launch of a user-tested device with some {gap} special event .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes . Yes .
Industrial Designer: And and then um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , that's a good idea .
Industrial Designer: so that gives us a little more time perhaps then we anticipated , because I don't know when the World Cup is , but I'm sure there's gonna be one .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Or any major sports .
Industrial Designer: Or another {gap} m major sports event . Probably not the um the football games coming up the end of January . I think that might be a little too aggressive um ,
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but , so , I'm just ig uh pointing out a uh a strategy to uh do some additional user testing
Project Manager: Research .
Industrial Designer: pri and then to launch um at a a major sports event
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: or uh perhaps to uh also {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's actually good place to advertise it too .
Industrial Designer: And to work with motion pictures .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} There might be some motion pictures that are coming out um {disfmarker} that are coming out on D_V_D_ that uh they need to have a m special remote control to work with it , so we could maybe work out a campaign with uh with Sony Pictures for example .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Maybe some management has got uh relationships there we can leverage .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yes , the {disfmarker} that of course uh I will convince the management to do that , okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's great . {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's just something to to keep in mind , 'cause it's really really important .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sure , sure , yes .
User Interface: A lot of products have gone out there without being properly user-tested and completely flopped , when in fact it gets re-released a few years down the line with proper testing and it takes off like crazy .
Industrial Designer: Disposable diapers is an example of that in fact . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Really ?
Industrial Designer: Yes , it is one of the first consumer products that was launched about thirty years {disfmarker} that was a disposable consumer product ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} That I didn't know . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and uh people {disfmarker} the market hadn't really {vocalsound} gotten on to the concept that you could use something and then throw it away , 'cause it wasn't uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: but then when they re-launched them thirty years later , they were virtually the same design ,
Project Manager: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: but people had gotten the throw-away , you know , paper cups and napki y all kinds of things that they hadn't um {disfmarker} so , you're right , timing is very important ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but I think we've got a good product .
Project Manager: That's the reason Ed is here .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think he can promote the the brand value and the product value .
Industrial Designer: That's right . It's gonna be very important to the company . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes . We are behind the scene and he is the front screen , so .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: He's on the big screen .
Marketing: Yeah , I'm the one who takes the heat .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Exactly . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Good luck , Ed .
Marketing: {vocalsound} If it's a flop , it's the marketer . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You look very relaxed , considering h you know , the uh the weight on your shoulders , yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes . Yes . Stress . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , so then uh let's come to the closing and uh are the costs within the budget
Marketing: Celebration . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and uh is the product evaluated , okay , so that will uh come soon . Okay for uh {disfmarker} but our time being , so thanks for all your efforts and great work and uh great design and uh let's leave it to the Ed for later for once production is over and the meantime let's celebrate . So let's meet up uh this evening to hang up for some party .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Sounds good .
Project Manager: 'S good .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Very good .
Industrial Designer: Nice working with you .
Marketing: Thank you very much .
Project Manager: Thank you . Thank you again for all .
User Interface: Thanks
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And see you in the evening for drinks .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Bye-bye . Yep , okay , see you later on . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Bye .
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doc_11
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Project Manager: Well hi everyone again .
User Interface: Hello .
Industrial Designer: Hello .
Marketing: Hello
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} like before we uh {disfmarker} I have to redo the meetings from {vocalsound} {disfmarker} n th the minutes from the last meeting
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and so here we go . Uh it was discussed in the last meeting uh which was opened by the presentation from the interface um designer {vocalsound} that uh looks would be very important on this new remote
User Interface: Designer . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and um it is to send messages of course to the T_V_ . It should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons , switch to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etcetera . It should have a memory switch , a mute button in case the telephone rings or something . Uh speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal uh features she would like see d d to be integrated in this um in this new remote . Um . {vocalsound} Should be child friendly design with few buttons , colourful maybe with s star shaped or other shaped buttons . Um she uh presented also an oversized remote which she guarantees nobody will ever be able to lose .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: And she was challenged on that point {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} that's right . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But uh her very f personal favourite really she , she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote . The industrial designer um presented her uh {vocalsound} thoughts on the issue . She would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong , not using any harmful materials , should be recyclable and should be colourful . Should have an integrated circuit board that's highly sophisticated and temperature resistant . She would like to see a timer and or alarm facility integrated . Uh technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor , diode transistor , resonator , and if possible a rechargeable battery . Uh and of course a circuit board . And how it would works , you press the button , the chip is morse {disfmarker} morse code related relays the {disfmarker} uh to the generat to the generator amplification and uh the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature uh to to to consider .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: She would like uh {disfmarker} this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip uh scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore . Should be battery operated and of course she would have the special cases . The marketing expert uh who has to finally come up with {disfmarker} to to to market this product has been watching the competition , has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small , easy to use and it should be eye catching . From her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does . To do that uh maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on . Too many new features or too many points would only confuse matter . So we prefer to have one or two features that can be really uh driven home . Um it should have a fruit and vegetable design and should have a soft feel . She feels that's really what people want today . And the decision that we took last time was that uh the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser , the energy should be battery uh should be on a chip , should be trendy design , compact and strong , and should have buttons . And that concludes the presentation from the last minutes {disfmarker} from the last meeting . Now uh we are ready for the presentation of the prototype .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Just the look like , the button part I'll explain .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Uh so this is our {disfmarker} what uh we have made . This is a model of the remote control which we are going to build .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh this is us in a snail shape so uh it it is attractive
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: um and it's {disfmarker} it's blue in colour uh bright and uh it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so it is a {disfmarker} uh uh a {disfmarker} looks-wise it is beautiful .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh and also compact in shape .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh um and also i it it will be easily fit into {disfmarker} into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: oops , sorry . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You used to have all the buttons {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um yeah and um uh the material which we are going to use for the case is uh plastic and uh w which which is s strong um uh and also uh for the {disfmarker} Um the material is plastic and uh for the buttons it is uh s soft rubber um and als
Marketing: Oh that's good ,
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Marketing: no , that's nice and friendly .
Industrial Designer: Yeah because uh uh you'll be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And then um uh for the {disfmarker} for the led , for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and it's a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} it is a bulb like an ordinary infrared .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker} and the button {disfmarker} button's part uh will be explained by F Francina .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Now the um {disfmarker} we decided upon including certain features on our remote . Now these features includes the s um signal emitting uh signal {disfmarker} it's the led or L_E_D_ the infrared .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm ,
Marketing: Yeah , okay , mm-hmm .
Project Manager: mm-hmm .
User Interface: Now uh we have included the switch on and off button .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Now we have included another feature that is the mute button
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: on the side of the model . Then we have included one to nine buttons
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: for controlling the programmes {disfmarker} the different channels .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: We have also included two buttons for increasing or decreasing the volume .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And we have also included two buttons for scrolling up and scrolling down the programme channels . Now our {disfmarker} our model also contains a button which is called as the menu button .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: What kind of button ?
User Interface: Menu button .
Project Manager: Menu ? Uh menu th menu , uh one one .
User Interface: Yes , menu {disfmarker}
Marketing: Menu button . {vocalsound}
User Interface: At the centre
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour , sharpness , brightness
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Of the screen . Mm , mm-hmm .
User Interface: of this uh picture . We have also included a button which is called as the swapping button . Now this is uh a special , special feature which we have included . Now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel , if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel . It will take the user to the previous and the next channel so this is a swapping button .
Marketing: The next channel in the numeric pattern , or {disfmarker}
User Interface: No , swapping is if if example you're {disfmarker} you're watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap , this button .
Marketing: Yeah , mm-hmm . Mm .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Okay , okay .
User Interface: And at the end , it {disfmarker} this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the user's voice and then it'll act accordingly .
Project Manager: Okay . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So this is our proposed model .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Now the marketing expert has to
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Tell , yeah .
User Interface: give her suggestion whether it'll be sellable {vocalsound} or it'll be cost effective .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay , well um what {disfmarker} what I really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb ,
User Interface: Yes , yes .
Marketing: that you can really hold it in one h you don't need two hands
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and it's easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand , yeah ?
Project Manager: Yes the buttons are all raised , right ?
Marketing: The buttons are all raised
Project Manager: Are raised , mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you don't have to turn it around , turn it upside down , move it up , up and down ,
Project Manager: Right . Or have two hands to operate it , yeah .
Marketing: I really like that .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: You really did a good job on that , my little designers .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um and um I like the idea that the on-off button is in a really prominent place . That's that's a really good good thing .
Project Manager: Yes , and it sort of sticks up so that you really {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , that's great .
Project Manager: you don't have to g first go like oh yeah here it's on and yeah , mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Abs okay .
Marketing: The colour's very attractive . Um the um these buttons uh around here are the mute
User Interface: No , these {disfmarker} the front buttons which are here , are the mute buttons .
Marketing: and {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} mm-hmm On both sides they're mute ?
User Interface: Yes , yes .
Marketing: So you can push either one ?
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: So if you're left-handed or right-handed it doesn't matter .
Marketing: And this brings the menu up on the screen ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Pardon me ? This is the menu {disfmarker} yes , yes .
Marketing: This brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are {disfmarker}
User Interface: A the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes ,
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: and these two are to uh scroll the programme channels .
Marketing: F f okay .
User Interface: Scroll up or scroll down the channels .
Marketing: Right , very good . Uh it looks mm looks like something I can sell .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay and now I'm supposed to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well , I have one question
Marketing: yeah .
Project Manager: uh will there be anything written on the buttons , like that people know , or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ?
User Interface: Yes , it will have uh {disfmarker} these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols .
Industrial Designer: Ah . Yeah , definitely .
Project Manager: Will have symbols so that that {disfmarker} that the user really knows you know and doesn't have to first learn it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes , which can be easily recognised .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Good point because we need the symbols 'cause we're going into an international market we can't have anything that's language dependent .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah of course , and also {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah . But anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols , text or something so that people kn
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah we can {disfmarker} Text .
Marketing: Symbols on it . Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Text that we can have on the case itself ,
Project Manager: That's right .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: we can {disfmarker} it will be printed on the case and symbols as well as the buttons . Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay , yeah just wanted make sure of that mm-hmm .
User Interface: And {disfmarker} and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape .
Marketing: Mm , 'kay , mm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: A shell shape .
Marketing: For the snail , yeah , mm-hmm ,
Project Manager: Right , mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yes , yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So it is {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} we have the snail shell .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yes , snail shell .
Industrial Designer: yeah ,
Marketing: He goes right back into his shell .
Industrial Designer: yeah {disfmarker} shell .
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Well you know I think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Y Yes {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , of course , yeah .
Marketing: you know that would , that would really work .
Project Manager: Now what , what are our special features for the marketing ?
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's really the voice recognition that's really unusual {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think voice recognition is our big selling point
Industrial Designer: Mm . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: 'cause nobody else seems to have that in in this price range .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: And then , and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use .
Marketing: Yep
Project Manager: You know .
Marketing: uh well I think that everybody's gonna say their remote control is practical . I think we have to , we have to dwell on on on the appearance .
Project Manager: Colours . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: We're really gonna have the be the
Project Manager: Cutest .
Marketing: cutest remote control on the block .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: So I think we have to play with the image , play with the snail image um play with the visual and then the voice recognition .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: I think those are the two things to push . The look and the voice recognition . They're gonna be our two selling points .
Project Manager: Okay , now uh having said that {disfmarker}
Marketing: I'm supposed to make a little presentation , aren't I ?
Project Manager: No , now this was our evaluation criteria which we uh just have done .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Now we're gonna talk about financing . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ah , but in my instructions I think it said I was supposed to go to the board and do something .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well , there is a production evaluation .
Marketing: No ?
Project Manager: Is that you ?
Marketing: Yeah , that's me .
Project Manager: But that's after the financing .
Marketing: Oh , okay .
Project Manager: See ? Fi see ?
Marketing: Sorry , sorry . Mm-mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um . {vocalsound} Okay , we had looks and voice recognition . Okay now on the financing we bring up the mm there it is . Okay uh energy source we say that's battery , right ?
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: That's right .
Project Manager: Okay , now . So we {disfmarker} I guess we use one .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: What ? T cell or chart you are trying to change is protected . Well , that's nice . She told me I could just ch change it here and then it would {disfmarker} It doesn't work . Hmm .
Marketing: Can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh , okay yeah , okay ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: let's see . Okay , one , okay .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: Oh go away . Um kinetic source so that's {disfmarker} in the energy source that's all we need .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Uh electronics , simple chip on print ? Is that's what we're using ?
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Project Manager: One of those ?
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Project Manager: Come on . Okay , one . Uh regular chip on print . No . That's all we need , the one
Industrial Designer: No . Yeah .
Project Manager: {disfmarker} case , uncurved flat , single curved , double curved .
Marketing: Well . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: This is a {disfmarker}
User Interface: Single curve ? Mm .
Marketing: I guess it's double curved .
Project Manager: Double curved ? One of those ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Case materi s supplements . Plastic we said , right ?
User Interface: Plastic .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh wood , rubber ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Rubber , because we're gonna have the soft buttons .
Project Manager: Uh but , yes but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think uh that is uh f for rubbers that is uh {disfmarker} yeah case material .
Project Manager: That's just for the case material ,
User Interface: Is this for the case ? Yes .
Project Manager: so special colours though , we having that ,
Marketing: Oh okay , the mm-hmm , mm' kay .
Project Manager: right ?
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And then we have to interface push buttons .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Scroll wheel , no . Integrated scroll wheel , L_C_ display ?
User Interface: No .
Marketing: No ,
Project Manager: Button .
Marketing: 'cause we didn't put the clock in it after all , right ?
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Uh , button supplement special colour ?
User Interface: Speci Yes
Project Manager: Special form ?
User Interface: Yes d we do have special form .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: And special material , rubber , wood , yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Total seven point six whatever that means .
Industrial Designer: Uh , I think that's the price .
Project Manager: That's the price .
User Interface: One two three four five six seven eight nine
Project Manager: Mm ?
Industrial Designer: Maybe it {disfmarker} is it just {disfmarker} n
Project Manager: Eight , eight point two . That's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Nine points ,
Project Manager: hmm ?
User Interface: okay , yes .
Project Manager: Eight point two , right ? So , we {disfmarker} looks like we are well within budget .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay . I guess I should save this I suppose , huh ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Oops . Uh-huh huh huh .
User Interface: On the desktop .
Project Manager: I just tried that . My documents , computer .
Industrial Designer: AMI .
Project Manager: My compu Ah oh here it is , yes .
Industrial Designer: AMI should for
Project Manager: Okay , fine . Save . Okay good , so that's the good news . We gonna be popular .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um . So that uh {disfmarker} I think financing was pretty simple .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Now we would like to have a presentation by the marketing expert on production evaluation .
Marketing: Okay , I'll take my file down so you can bring it up . 'Kay should be able to get it now . 'Kay , why don't you move just to the next slide right away .
Project Manager: You wanna go to the next slide ?
Marketing: Yeah right away .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay , well uh obviously my method for uh s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question , will it sell ? And I think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socio-economic groups and see about any fine tuning that {disfmarker} maybe little things we haven't thought of .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: We can't accept every suggestion of course , but maybe we just need to get a few .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: And show the the prototype to consumer research groups , we don't s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we won't sell any .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Mm .
Marketing: So we have to get some input from those people .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: And then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it , we think it's good , we're gonna get behind it and sell it . Um , next slide please . Okay , now the things that I was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype . I wanted the shape to be biomorphic , I didn't want anything with angles and all square , I wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we've got that . The size is small , the colour's bright and warm which is what we wanted . We wanted the feel to be as soft as possible , we'll have the soft buttons
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and the way this is shaped , even though it's gonna be hard plastic , it feels good in your hand so that's nice . And functionality I put last on my list because people aren't going to use it before they buy it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So paradoxically the other features , in other words , the look , the feel um and the shape , that's what people are gonna get in the store .
User Interface: Fee selling .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: They don't have a television in the store , they can't play with it .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Um so they'll be our main selling points . So um {vocalsound} th those have been fulfilled by your prototype and go ahead to the next slide please . Okay , so um the shape um I think is a {disfmarker} a one . That's really , really excellent shape . The size is small um and th these points are in the importance for the , for the marketing , these aren't i in how I feel . I think that it's {disfmarker} I think that it's plenty small enough to sell but I think we're sort of right {disfmarker} the scale is one to seven . I think we're sort of right in the middle as far as c other competitors .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: And our colour I think is great . The colours are bright and warm and we really do great job there . And given um the constraints that we had I think we got it as soft as possible . And then functionality um I think you did a really good job on functionality , obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we'd disturb something else so I would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So I think that basically we've got a great product and we can get off and running with it .
Project Manager: Um I just realised one thing .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: In the financing there was no room for our voice recogniser .
Marketing: Yes .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Ah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: And uh I don't know how we can evaluate that or how we can include that , too .
Marketing: Well , um we had what , eight eight euros twenty as our cost ?
Project Manager: Eight , eight twenty , yes .
Industrial Designer: Eight twenty so {disfmarker}
Marketing: And so we've got {disfmarker} we've still got four euros to go {disfmarker} to spend .
Industrial Designer: We have um four euros , yeah
Project Manager: I mean maximum we have another four point three euros I mean {vocalsound} four thirty .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Well um that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But I mean we have no way of presenting that to management as you know as a f finished , as a finished product and saying okay with the voice recogniser that costs so much .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So um we just have to beware of that . I mean and know whether the four thirty will really cover that .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Well as we know in today's technic technological world you can do just about anything at any price , the the the problem is quality .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah {gap} .
Marketing: So we're just gonna have to settle for whatever quality that will buy us .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
User Interface: Yes , yes .
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Marketing: And um it may not be the greatest quality but it may sell anyway .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , still .
Marketing: {vocalsound} As we've seen with so many of these kinds of products . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm sorry to interrupt then but I just uh recog I just remembered that there was no {disfmarker} that that was not um included uh {disfmarker} that there was no room for any special features , okay ?
Industrial Designer: Included , yeah . Hmm ,
User Interface: Yeah mm .
Industrial Designer: hmm
Project Manager: So to beware of that . You wanna go to this next slide , marketing expert ?
Marketing: Uh , well I isn't this my last slide ?
Project Manager: I dunno .
Marketing: Maybe .
Project Manager: Yes it is . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Go ahead . I think that was my last slide , yeah . Um . Mm okay . And I'm supposed to present this scale on the whiteboard . Um and we're supposed to talk about those things as a team now , so if you put my last slide back up there .
Project Manager: Oh .
Marketing: I'm sorry I've um forgot to do that , um .
Project Manager: Why ? Wh why you need that up ?
Marketing: Hmm ? Well because I can't remember what I put on there . {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Now I'm supposed to see how long my leash is here .
Project Manager: I think you can make it there .
Marketing: Mm 'kay . You ready . So now we're all supposed to say what we think . Um okay so on shape I gave it a one . Wait what would you ra uh one being good and seven being the worst .
User Interface: Worse , okay .
Marketing: Um what do you think the shape is ?
User Interface: One .
Marketing: One , okay , and Be Betsy ?
Project Manager: Yes I think uh shape is one .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , even my {disfmarker} yeah , shape is one .
Marketing: Okay , uh-huh one , okay . And how about on size ? On size {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You {disfmarker} you gave it a four .
Marketing: I gave it a four , yeah , I feel it's just average .
Project Manager: Um , I dunno . I think I would give it at least a two .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: One .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , even I think it is one . It's quite small .
Marketing: Okay . Okay {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: you're the designer , of course you wanna give it a one .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um and then how about {disfmarker} how we doing on colour ?
Project Manager: Colour uh I {disfmarker}
Marketing: Colour , I gave it a one .
Project Manager: One .
Marketing: I really like all those nice bright , warm colours .
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} I like the colours . One .
User Interface: One . Yes .
Marketing: One .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , one .
Marketing: One , one , one , okay . And how about the feel ? Taking into um consideration texture and comfort in the hand .
Project Manager: Uh , I think I would give it a two .
Marketing: Okay , I gave it a three , two ,
User Interface: I'll give three .
Marketing: yeah ? Three .
Industrial Designer: Uh maybe two ,
Marketing: Two , okay .
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Marketing: And the next is functionality where I I admit I was a little hard on our team here , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well it's also you can't really try it out uh the other things you have have more {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} are more tangible so from that point of view
Marketing: Yeah . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: but um {disfmarker} I'll give it a three .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Two .
Marketing: Two , okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh three , mm-hmm .
Marketing: Three ? Okay . Well , um . It looks like we've got got ourselves a pretty good product . Um the functionality's the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe , heaven forbid , having another meeting .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} But um otherwise I think we're {disfmarker} we're ready to go to {disfmarker} go with this product . Anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ?
Project Manager: Uh . Here is what we looking at uh satisfaction on for example room for creativity . Um . Is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ?
User Interface: We can always improve , yes .
Industrial Designer: Maybe we can {disfmarker} yeah , include some more buttons and uh um
User Interface: Yes , features .
Industrial Designer: yeah features . We can make the buttons {disfmarker} few buttons smaller . Uh I think they are quite big , so I think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case . If we want to have more features than that .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Well then again if we're gonna um {vocalsound} do the speech recognition thing we're gon there gonna be some buttons that are gonna have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , definitely .
User Interface: Yes . Voices .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So that that's where we're gonna have to do {disfmarker} maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons , instead of having two mute buttons .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , definitely , yeah , two mu mute buttons .
User Interface: Yes . Yes .
Marketing: And um then maybe we can do something with the um the volume control . Maybe we can put that all on one button .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Um and a couple of other th maybe comp uh consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that .
Project Manager: Y um al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And maybe {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and that we still you know we probably can't , with this particular item , we probably can't just uh add a whole lot of more things .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . No .
Project Manager: Uh um we need uh {disfmarker} you know we need to leave space money-wise for the voice recogniser .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So th the question really is how do we feel with the project process ? Uh , um are we happy with the creativity that has passed here or we're not happy with the new product we created or that was created ? Uh I think {disfmarker} personally I think uh I'm pretty happy .
Marketing: I'm pretty happy with it too , yeah um ,
Project Manager: Um an
Industrial Designer: Even I'm happy .
Marketing: it's something I think I can market . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think you've done a good job , Miss leader . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes , yes you've done a good job .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah , definitely . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And I think team work I think was very very good , I think we really {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah I d I do too I think we worked well together as a team , yeah . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: And uh I think we {disfmarker} are we happy with the means we used ? We used whiteboard , we didn't use digital p well digital pens I guess are these things .
Marketing: Yeah maybe we could've used the whiteboard a little bit more , yeah ,
User Interface: Whiteboard more , yes , yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , probably .
Marketing: we didn't use that enough .
Project Manager: Yes , we could . Uh , it's maybe not in the best position in the room um you know like sometimes it's positioned so that it's much better visible for everybody and I think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: And we used the slide because it was better positioned .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes , I think so , I think absolutely ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: No .
Marketing: Mm I think that's true mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and fortunately we all had slides presentation which made it a little easier .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: Um did we new {disfmarker} did we find new ideas ?
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: I think we did .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , many .
Marketing: I think we were we were very good , yeah , mm .
Project Manager: I think we we did , uh in more than one respect and uh so I think we did very well here .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Okay .
Project Manager: Are the costs within budget ? Yes , yes . Uh is the project evaluated ? Yes .
Marketing: Yes , yes .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um then celebration . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Celebration .
User Interface: Cel celebration {vocalsound} yes , yes . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Today we have apple juice and after we sell m million of 'em we have champagne . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So I {disfmarker} I thank you all very much . Um , I think this was very good and um
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: I think we did come up with a new product that's uh feasible . Feasible from the production point of view and feasible from a marketing point of view .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So , thank you .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Thank you .
Industrial Designer: Thank you very much .
Marketing: Okay . Watch I I have my cord behind you here .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: I always get it on here , but getting it off is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Do we {disfmarker} do we have some time left ? Uh {disfmarker} you have {disfmarker}
User Interface: They say it's forty minutes .
Project Manager: Ah yes we have time later
Marketing: But we we were told we could end the final meeting at any time , whenever we felt we were finished .
Project Manager: but we don't {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Oh , alright .
Marketing: It'll take me the rest of the time to get my microphone out from my necklace . {vocalsound} Oh , there we go .
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Industrial Designer: Now what .
Project Manager: 'Kay , hello everybody . Uh , I guess you all know what is it about , you all received the email , I guess . Uh , we are actually doing this meeting to start a new project which is about designing a remote control . So I'm going to be the project manager of this uh project . And uh so I'm {disfmarker} present myself . I'm Fabien Cardinaux and uh I I guess you can present yourself . So I dunno , you can starts .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay , so my name is Petre {gap} . You can call me Petre {gap} , or Peter if you like . I don't care {gap} .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Uh my name's Bob Mor .
Project Manager: And you are ? In the project ?
Industrial Designer: Uh , in the project I'm supposed to be the technic .
Marketing: Oh , sorry .
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: 'Kay . So my name's Bob Morris . I'm the Marketing Expert for this project .
Industrial Designer: Bob ,
Marketing: Bob yeah .
Industrial Designer: okay .
User Interface: My name is Hamed Getabdar , and uh I'm going to be Interface Designer in this project .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: So , uh , so today we are doing a short meeting to present the project , so um We are gooding we are going to present the tool we are {vocalsound} we are going to use during all this project . We are talking about the project plan , and we are going to to discuss about st our first ideas and so on , and , yeah . So we have around twenty five minutes to do this meeting . Um . So what is the goal of this project ? Is to design a new remote control . So it should be , of course , new and original , and um it should be trendy , and user friendly . That mean it's a very challenging project , and uh uh . So w it's {disfmarker} we will try to do our best , and hopefully come with something very new and that people want to buy . So , um {disfmarker} So what's uh what are we going to do during this all this project ? So it's more like we are going to do inv individual work all in o in o our specialities and we are going to meet each other quite often to discuss and to find a good way . Um . Yeah and everything is {disfmarker} will be like this . Um so now we are going to to get used t to to the tools we are going to use all {disfmarker} during all this project . So we can try to use uh the whiteboard here . So {gap} uh .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: For example we can try to write what is our our favourite animal and write the f our favourite characteristics about it . Mm . Uh {vocalsound} . So uh {disfmarker} {gap} So I will ask you all to do the same .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Just to get used to the whiteboard .
Industrial Designer: So probably I would try to try to draw the animal . Well sh should I draw the picture of the animal ?
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah , you can draw the picture , of course {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: I I th I think I should .
Marketing: Yeah go ahead .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so . Um {vocalsound} . Okay , American , um . Um . I would use the bird . So I tried to sketch it out . I had to first uh write it down because I am not absolutely sure if I can draw it , but ah . Can you recognise it {vocalsound} as a bird ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay {vocalsound} it's your turn to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay , okay . {vocalsound} So I think my favourite animal would be a c a cat .
Project Manager: Oh .
Marketing: That's its head .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um I probably like cats the most because they're cuddly and furry and uh playful .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: I dunno if I should go with this {gap} {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Oh it's okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Thanks . {vocalsound}
User Interface: If it is enough line .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Maybe put it up
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm sorry . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {disfmarker} Put it a Maybe put it on the desk or something .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I should get used to the tool , so .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh just wait {gap} a little bit . C could we put it here , to make it as straight as possible ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ah probably not .
User Interface: {vocalsound} They should be remote .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay , it {disfmarker} it works like this .
Marketing: Uh , that's better .
User Interface: Okay , thanks .
Marketing: Your lapel microphone's fallen off .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Are you left-handed ?
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: Oh , pity {vocalsound} .
User Interface: Okay . Should I clean ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay , I think like horses uh because they are strong and beautiful , so if I want to write it here , I think I can . {vocalsound} Oh {vocalsound} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Never mind . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ah , it's maybe better if you leave it .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah . Maybe we should just continue .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , don't worry about it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: {gap} , no worry .
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: You won't draw them , or ?
Project Manager: You can draw it , if you want . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I dunno if I can .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Just try . I would like to see how it looks like .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It may be like a cow or I dunno , whatever .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm not good very good in drawing . Okay , so this is very {vocalsound} {disfmarker} It's a bird , I think . I dunno what is it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No , I think it's clear .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Four . Okay . Mm-hmm . Mm . Yeah . I'm shameful {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh that's good , it's good .
Industrial Designer: It's okay . It's in it's indeed beautiful .
Project Manager: Good .
Marketing: Yeah , and strong . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Bob . Have to remember it . Bob .
Project Manager: So good um {disfmarker} So , let's talk about money . Uh we are going to to sell {disfmarker} we want to sell uh this remote control for twenty five Euro Euro . And uh our expected profit will be around fifty million Euro . And uh we are trying to to have a market all around the world . So {gap} n not only for Switzerland , but for the world . Uh . So , um . The {disfmarker} We expect a production cost of maximum uh twelve point fifty Euro .
Industrial Designer: Per unit , I guess .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , of course .
Industrial Designer: Y oh okay .
Project Manager: Um , so we can start today to have a first idea of what we want to do what are our experiments with remote control , and any idea ? So , if you have some experience , good or bad , with remote controls you can share it and say what you f what is your idea . Anything .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Well , from experience , um I've had remote controls in the past that have had very {disfmarker} they've had lots and lots of buttons and they've been very small , and it's been very hard to to to use , because there's so many buttons , and you know it's very hard to see which buttons do what , and the buttons are very small and very hard to press . Um and and normally you only every use , you know , on a T_V_ remote you only ever use , mostly , you know , f four or f six buttons . Um .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Marketing: So it's frustrated me in the past , th that .
Industrial Designer: Okay , I have also some points uh . Maybe two points . Uh first would be that in current remote controls there is no back light {vocalsound} , so if you are if you are uh playing with this in the dark room it's it's probably worth to to have something like uh back light .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And maybe it could be also dependant on the the amount of of light in the room , so that if if it's in the day it doesn't need to be back lighted because it works on the battery , so . So something like this . And the second thing , f second point from me would be that in a normal remote control there is uh {disfmarker} there are two buttons for volume control .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But I prefer like a potential-meter or something like .
Marketing: Ah , okay . Okay .
Industrial Designer: You know , some slider or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Not just two discrete buttons for volume ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay , n {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but something which {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Marketing: Is that because the {disfmarker} of the discrete volume levels , or is that
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but I can reach {disfmarker} In uh one second I can mute it down , or or make a high volume .
Project Manager: {gap} Are you not afraid that if you take your remote control you can move the slide and it could {gap} {disfmarker} the the volume can go up very quickly
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Ah , n .
Project Manager: and it can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: If it drops to the floor then it starts to scream {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah , also if y when you take the the remote control , for example on the table , you take it and you push the button and everything is very loud , and
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , f It depends what what you feel about that .
Project Manager: you have a heart attack {vocalsound} . Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but we can we can think of these things afterwards , but if {gap} you have some more notes on that .
Project Manager: Yeah so you can {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh I {disfmarker} Yeah ,
Project Manager: Do you have something ?
User Interface: just a simple experience . I uh I prefer um remote control working with radio waves , because remote control working with infra-red rays you should you should you should keep it in a specific direction and then try it hard to tune {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah , that's true . Yeah without obstacles and {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay . Let's continue .
Industrial Designer: Um .
Project Manager: I have a meeting in five minutes , so maybe we should hurry .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Um . So we will close uh this meeting .
Industrial Designer: Okay , just a second . {gap}
Project Manager: So we will have a next meeting in uh thirty minutes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um . Uh . The {disfmarker} So I will ask you to do some work . Uh the the interface interface developer will work on the on the design of the remote control , start to to have new idea and
Industrial Designer: Which i which is Hamed , {gap} ?
Project Manager: read about {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: He's the Industrial Designer ? No , you're the Industrial Designer .
Industrial Designer: Uh I am the Technical Designer ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Oh .
Industrial Designer: I dunno which one , uh v .
Marketing: Yeah ,
Project Manager: Industry and {disfmarker} Oh .
Marketing: I think that's the first . I_D_ . Industrial Designer .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Marketing: And the second one is the User Interface Designer .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: User Interf Okay .
Marketing: And then last one's marketing , which is me .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so I'm the first one .
Project Manager: So , um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: For the User Interface Designer , which is Hamed um ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: uh , you are going to work on the technical functions of the remote control .
Industrial Designer: I see .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: And for the Marketing uh Manager , I dunno , okay , which is Bob , uh you are going to try to to find the user requirements f uh for the remote control . Um , you will receive by email uh the specific instructions and uh by your personal coach .
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} Sign .
Project Manager: Yep finished . So I see you in thirty minutes .
Marketing: Great , okay .
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Okay , thanks .
Marketing: Thanks guys . Bye .
User Interface: Bye .
Project Manager: Thank you .
Industrial Designer: {gap} Uh . {gap}
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PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: Um , so . If we can't , we can't . But uh we 're gonna try to make this an abbreviated meeting cuz the {disfmarker} the next {disfmarker} next occupants were pushing for it , so . Um . So . Agenda is {disfmarker} according to this , is transcription status , DARPA demos XML tools , disks , backups , et cetera and
Grad H: Does anyone have anything to {pause} add to the agenda ?
Professor B: OK . Should we just go in order ? Transcription status ? Who 's {disfmarker} that 's probably you .
Postdoc A: I can do that quickly . Um I hired several more transcribers , They 're making great progress .
Professor B: Seven ?
Postdoc A: Seve - several , several .
Professor B: Oh .
Postdoc A: And uh {disfmarker} and uh , uh I 've been uh finishing up the uh double checking . I hoped to have had that done by today but it 's gonna take one more week .
Grad H: Um
PhD D: I g
Grad H: as a somewhat segue into the next topic , um could I get a hold of uh the data even if it 's not really corrected yet just so I can get the data formats and make sure the information retrieval stuff is working ?
Postdoc A: Certainly . Yeah I mean , it 's in the same place it 's been .
Grad H: So can you just {disfmarker} Oh , it is .
Postdoc A: Uh - huh . No change .
Grad H: OK . Just {disfmarker} So , " transcripts " is the sub - directory ?
Postdoc A: Uh {disfmarker} Yes . Uh - huh .
Grad H: OK . So I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll probably just make some copies of those rather than use the ones that are there .
Postdoc A: OK .
Grad H: Um and then just {disfmarker} we 'll have to remember to delete them once the corrections are made .
Postdoc A: OK .
Professor B: OK , wh
PhD D: I also got anot a short remark to the transcription . I 've uh just processed the first five EDU meetings and they are chunked up so they would {disfmarker} they probably can be sent to IBM whenever they want them .
Grad C: Cool .
PhD F: Well the second one of those
PhD D: Yep . It 's already at IBM ,
PhD F: is already at IBM .
PhD D: but the other ones {disfmarker}
PhD F: That 's the one that {pause} we 're waiting to hear from them on .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc A: OK .
PhD F: Yeah .
Postdoc A: These are separate from the ones that {disfmarker}
PhD F: As soon as {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: I mean , these are {disfmarker}
PhD F: They 're the IBM set .
PhD D: Yep .
Grad H: It 's this one .
Postdoc A: Excellent . Good .
PhD F: Yeah . And so as soon as we hear from Brian that this one is OK
Grad H: Is my mike on ? Yeah .
PhD F: and we get the transcript back and we find out that hopefully there are no problems matching up the transcript with what we gave them , then uh we 'll be ready to go and we 'll just send them the next four as a big batch ,
Postdoc A: Excellent .
PhD F: and let them work on that .
Grad H: And so we 're doing those as disjoint from the ones we 're transcribing here ?
PhD F: Yes , exactly .
Grad H: OK , good .
PhD F: We 're sort of doing things in parallel , that way we can get as much done a at once .
Grad H: Yeah , I think that 's the right way to do it ,
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad H: especially for the information retrieval stuff . Anything else on transcription status ?
Postdoc A: Hm - mmm .
Grad H: OK .
Professor B: DARPA demos , we had the submeeting the other day .
Grad H: Right , which uh {disfmarker} So I 've been working on using the THISL tools to do information retrieval on meeting data and the THISL tools are {disfmarker} there 're two sets , there 's a back - end and a front - end , so the front - end is the user interface and the back - end is the indexing tool and the querying tool . And so I 've written some tools to convert everything into the right for file formats . And the command line version of the indexing and the querying is now working . So at least on the one meeting that I had the transcript for uh conveniently you can now do information retrieval on it , do {disfmarker} type in a {disfmarker} a string and get back a list of start - end times for the meeting ,
PhD F: What {disfmarker} what kind of uh {disfmarker} what does that look like ? The string that you type in .
Grad H: uh of hits .
PhD F: What are you {disfmarker} are you {disfmarker} are they keywords , or are they {disfmarker} ?
Grad H: Keywords .
PhD F: OK . I see .
Grad H: Right ? And so {disfmarker} and then it munges it to pass it to the THISL IR which uses an SGML - like format for everything .
PhD F: I see .
Professor B: And then does it play something back or that 's something you 're having to program ?
Grad H: Um , right now , I have a tool that will do that on a command line using our standard tools ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad H: but my intention is to do a prettier user interface based either {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so that 's the other thing I wanted to discuss , is well what should we do for the user interface ? We have two tools that have already been written . Um the SoftSound guys did a web - based one ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad H: um , which I haven't used , haven't looked at . Dan says it 's pretty good
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad H: but it does mean you need to be running a web server .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad H: And so it {disfmarker} it 's pretty big and complex . Uh and it would be difficult to port to Windows because it means porting the web server to Windows .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad H: Uh the other option is Dan did the Tcl - TK THISL GUI front - end for Broadcast News
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad H: which I think looks great . I think that 's a nice demo . Um and that would be much easier to port to Windows . And so I think that 's the way we should go .
Postdoc A: I {disfmarker} Can I ask a question ? So um as it stands within the {disfmarker} the Channeltrans interface , it 's possible to do a find and a play .
Grad H: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc A: You can find a searched string and play . So e Are you {disfmarker} So you 're adding like um , I don't know , uh are they fuzzy matches or are they {pause} uh {disfmarker} ?
Grad H: It 's a sort of standard , text - retrieval - based {disfmarker} So it 's uh term frequency , inverse document frequency scoring .
Postdoc A: OK .
Grad H: Um and then there are all sorts of metrics for spacing how far apart they have to be and things like that . So it {disfmarker} it 's
Postdoc A: It 's a lot more sophisticated than the uh the basically Windows - based {disfmarker}
Grad H: i it 's like doing a Google query or anyth anything else like that .
Postdoc A: OK .
Grad H: So i it uses {disfmarker} So it pr produces an index ahead of time so you don't {disfmarker} you 're not doing a linear search through all the documents . Cuz you can imagine if {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} if we have the sixty hours ' worth you do {disfmarker} wouldn't wanna do a search .
Postdoc A: Hm - mmm . Good .
Grad H: Um you have to do preindexing and so that {disfmarker} these tools do all that . And so the work to get the front - end to work would be porting it {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} uh to get it to work on the UNIX systems , our side is just rewriting them and modifying them to work for meetings .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad H: So that it understands that they 're different speakers and that it 's one big audio file instead of a bunch of little ones and just sorta things like that .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: So what does the user see as the result of the query ?
Grad H: On which tool ?
PhD F: THISL .
Grad H: The THISL GUI tool which is the one that Dan wrote , Tcl - TK
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad H: um you type in a query and then you get back a list of hits and you can type on them and listen to them . Click on them rather {comment} with a mouse .
PhD F: Ah .
Professor B: Mmm
PhD F: So if you typed in " small heads " or something you could
Grad H: Right , you 'd get {disfmarker}
PhD F: get back a uh uh {comment} something that would let you click and listen to some audio where that phrase had occurred
Grad H: something {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you 'd get to listen to " beep " .
PhD F: or some
Professor B: That was a really good look . It 's too bad that that couldn't {vocalsound} come into the {disfmarker}
Grad H: You couldn't get a video .
PhD G: Guess who I practice on ?
Postdoc A: At some point we 're gonna have to say what that private joke is , that keeps coming up .
Professor B: Yeah . And then again , maybe not . So , {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} Yeah , that soun that sounds reasonable . Yeah , it loo it {disfmarker} my {disfmarker} my recollection of it is it 's {disfmarker} it 's a pretty reasonable uh demo sort of format .
Grad H: Right .
PhD F: Yeah that sounds good .
Grad H: And so I think there 'd be minimal effort to get it to work , minimally
PhD F: That sounds really neat .
Grad H: and then we 'd wanna add things like query by speaker and by meeting and all that sort of stuff . Um Dave Gelbart expressed some interest in working on that so I 'll work with him on it . And it {disfmarker} it 's looking pretty good , you know , the fact that I got the query system working . So if we wanna just do a video - based one I think that 'll be easy .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad H: If we wanna get it to Windows it 's gonna be a little more work because the THISL IR , the information retrieval tool 's {disfmarker} um , I had difficulty just compiling them on Solaris .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad H: So getting them to compile on Windows might be challenging .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: But you were saying that {disfmarker} that the uh {disfmarker} that there 's that set of tools , uh , Cygnus tools , that {disfmarker}
Grad H: So . It certainly helps .
PhD F: Uh - huh .
Grad H: Um , I mean without those I wouldn't even attempt it .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad H: But what those {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} what those do is provide sort of a BSD compatibility layer ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad H: so that the normal UNIX function calls all work .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: And you have to have all the o
Grad H: Um , But the problem is that {disfmarker} that the THISL tools didn't use anything like Autoconf and so you have the normal porting problems of different header files and th some things are defined and some things aren't and uh different compiler work - arounds and so on . So the fact that um it took me a day to get it c to compile under Solaris means it 's probably gonna take me s significantly more than that to get it to compile under Windows .
Professor B: How about having it run under free BSD ?
PhD E: Well what you need {disfmarker}
Grad H: Free BSD would probably be easier .
PhD E: All you need to do is say to Dan " gee it would be nice if this worked under Autoconf " and it 'll be done in a day .
Grad H: That 's true .
PhD D: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: Right ?
Grad H: Actually you know I should check because he did port it to SPRACHcore
PhD E: Right .
Grad H: so he might have done that already .
PhD E: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wouldn't be surprised .
Professor B: So {disfmarker}
Grad H: I 'll check at that {disfmarker}
Professor B: But it would {disfmarker} what would serve {disfmarker} would serve both purposes , is if you contact him and ask him if he 's already done it .
PhD E: What I {disfmarker}
PhD F: How does it play ?
Grad H: Yeah , right .
Professor B: If he has then you learn , if he hasn't then he 'll do it .
Grad H: Right .
Postdoc A: Wow .
PhD F: I hope he never listens to these meetings .
Grad H: That 's right . So , and I 've been corresponding with Dan and also with uh uh , SoftSound guy , uh {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: It 's amazing .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad H: Blanking on his name .
Professor B: Tony Robinson ?
PhD F: Tony Robinson ?
Grad H: Do I mean Tony ? I guess I do .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: James Christie .
Grad H: Or S or Steve Renals .
Professor B: Steve Renal - Steve Renals .
Grad H: Which one do I mean ?
PhD E: Steve Renals is not SoftSound , is he ?
Professor B: No .
Grad H: My brain is not working ,
Professor B: OK .
Grad H: I don't remember who I 've been corresponding with .
PhD E: Steve wro i it 's Ste - Steve Renals wrote THISL IR .
Grad H: Then it 's Steve Renals .
Professor B: Oh , OK .
PhD E: OK .
Grad H: So uh just getting documentation and uh and f and formats ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad H: so that 's all going pretty well ,
Professor B: Assuming we 're {disfmarker}
PhD E: Right .
PhD F: What about issues of playing sound files @ @ between the two platforms ?
Grad H: I think we 'll be OK with that . Um we have {disfmarker} Well , that 's a good point too .
PhD E: Here 's a {disfmarker} here 's a crazy idea {pause} actually .
Grad H: I don't know .
PhD E: Why don't you try and merge {pause} Transcriber {pause} and THISL IR ? They 're both Tcl interfaces .
Grad H: Well this is one of the reasons {disfmarker} This is the {disfmarker} one of the reasons that I 'm gonna have uh Dave Gelbart {disfmarker} Gelbart {disfmarker} Having him volunteer to work on it is a really good thing because he 's worked on the Transcriber stuff
PhD E: Right .
Grad H: and he 's more familiar with Tcl - TK than I am .
PhD E: And then you get {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} then you get the Windows media playing for free .
Grad H: Well that 's Snack , not {disfmarker} not Transcriber .
PhD E: Right . But the point is that the Transcriber uses Snack and then you can {disfmarker} but you can use a {disfmarker} a lot of the same functionality and it 's {disfmarker}
Grad H: Yeah , yeah , I mean , I {disfmarker} I think THISL {disfmarker} THISL GUI probably uses Snack . And so my intention was just to base it on that .
PhD E: Yeah . Well my thought was is that it would be nice {disfmarker} it would be nice to have the running transcripts um eh you know , from speaker to speaker .
Grad H: And if it doesn't {disfmarker}
PhD E: Right ? Do you have {disfmarker} you have , you know , a speaker mark here and a speaker mark here ?
Grad H: Right , we 'll have to figure out a user interface for that , so .
PhD E: Right . Well that {disfmarker} eh my thought was if you had like Multitrans or whatever do it . Or whatever .
Grad H: Yeah . It might be fairly difficult to get that to work in {comment} the little short segments we 'd be talking about and having the search tools and so on . We {disfmarker} we can look into it ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad H: but {disfmarker}
Professor B: The thing I was asking about with , um , free BSD is that it might be easier to get PowerPoint shows running in free BSD than to get this other package running in {disfmarker}
Grad H: Yeah , I mean we have to {disfmarker} I have to sit down and try it before I make too many judgments ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad H: so uh Um My experience with the Gnu compatibility library is really it 's just as hard and just as easy to port to any system . Right ? The Windows system isn't any harder because it {disfmarker} it looks like a BSD system .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad H: It 's just , you know , just like all of them , the " include " files are a little different and the function calls are a little different .
Professor B: Right .
Grad H: So I {disfmarker} it might be a little easier but it 's not gonna be a lot easier .
Professor B: OK . So there was that demo , which was one of the main ones , then we talked about um some other stuff which would basically be um showing off the {disfmarker} the Transcriber interface itself and as you say , maybe we could even merge those in some sense , but {disfmarker} but um , uh {disfmarker} and part of that was showing off what the speech - non uh nonspeech {comment} stuff that Thilo has done {pause} s {pause} looks like .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc A: Can I ask one more thing about THISL ? So with the IR stuff then you end up with a somewhat prioritized um {disfmarker} ?
Grad H: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ,
Postdoc A: Excellent .
Grad H: ranked .
Postdoc A: Excellent . Yeah .
PhD G: So another idea I w t had just now actually for the demo was whether it might be of interest to sh to show some of the prosody uh {vocalsound} work that Don 's been doing .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Um actually show some of the features and then show for instance a task like finding sentence boundaries or finding turn boundaries . Um , you know , you can show that graphically , sort of what the features are doing . It , you know , it doesn't work great but it 's definitely giving us something .
Professor B: Well I think at {disfmarker} at the very least we 're gonna want something illustrative with that
PhD G: I don't know if that would be of interest or not .
Professor B: cuz I 'm gonna want to talk about it and so i if there 's something that shows it graphically it 's much better than me just having a bullet point
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor B: pointing at something I don't know much about ,
PhD G: I mean , you 're looking at this now {disfmarker}
Professor B: so .
PhD G: Are you looking at Waves or Matlab ?
Grad C: Um yeah I 'm starting to and um {disfmarker} Yeah we can probably find some examples of different type of prosodic events going on .
PhD G: Yeah def
Professor B: S so when we here were having this demo meeting , what we 're sort of coming up with is that we wanna have all these pieces together , to first order , by the end of the month
PhD G: I
Professor B: and then that 'll give us a week or so .
Grad C: Ooo . The end of {disfmarker}
PhD G: Oh , the end of this month or next month ? Oh , you mean like today ?
Grad H: This month .
Professor B: Ju
PhD G: Oh .
Professor B: June . June . June .
PhD G: Next month .
Grad H: Oh sorry , next month .
Grad C: Yeah .
PhD G: Sorry .
Grad H: Today isn't June first ,
PhD F: There 's another one .
Grad H: is it .
Professor B: Uh {disfmarker} that 'll {disfmarker} that 'll give us {disfmarker} that 'll give us a week or so to uh {disfmarker} to port things over to my laptop and make sure that works ,
PhD E: Exactly .
PhD G: Sorry .
Professor B: yeah .
PhD G: I think , I mean eh where {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yeah , I mean I 'll be here .
PhD G: Yeah if d if Don can sort of talk to whoever 's {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD G: cuz we 're doing this anyway as part of our {disfmarker} you know , the research , visualizing what these features are doing
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD G: and so either {disfmarker} it might not be integrated but it {disfmarker} it could potentially be in it .
Professor B: Yeah . Well , this is to an audience of researchers
PhD G: Could find some .
Professor B: so I mean , you know , to let s the goal is to let them know what it is we 're doing .
PhD G: I mean it 's different .
Professor B: So that 's {disfmarker}
PhD G: I don't think anyone has done this on meeting data so it might be neat , you know .
Professor B: Yeah . Good . Done with that . XML tools ?
Grad H: Um . So I 've been doing a bunch of XML tools where you {disfmarker} we 're sort of moving to XML as the general format for everything and I think that 's definitely the right way to go because there are a lot of tools that let you do extraction and reformatting of XML tools . Um . So yet again we should probably meet to talk about transcription formats in XML because I 'm not particularly happy with what we have now . I mean it works with Transcriber but it {disfmarker} it 's a pain to use it in other tools uh because it doesn't mark start and end .
PhD F: Start and end of each {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad H: Uh {disfmarker} Utterance .
PhD F: Utterance . Just marks {disfmarker} ?
Grad H: So it 's implicit in {disfmarker} in there
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad H: but you have to do a lot of processing to get it .
PhD F: Right . Right .
Grad H: And so {disfmarker} and also I 'd like to do the indirect time line business . Um but regardless , I mean , w that 's something that you , me , and Jane can talk about later . Um , but I 've installed XML tools of various sorts in various languages and so if people are interested in doing {disfmarker} extracting any information from any of these files , either uh information on users because the user database is that way {disfmarker} I 'm converting the Key files to XML so that you can extract m uh various inf uh sorted information on individual meetings
Grad C: Cool .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad H: and then also the transcripts . And so l just let me know there {disfmarker} it 's mostly Java and Perl but we can get other languages too if {disfmarker} if that 's desirable .
PhD G: Oh , quick question on that . Is {disfmarker} do we have the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the seat information ? In {disfmarker} in the Key files now ?
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .
Grad H: The seat information is on the Key files for the ones which
Postdoc A: Ah .
PhD G: Oh in {disfmarker} For the new one
Grad H: it 's been recorded ,
PhD G: OK .
Grad H: yeah .
Professor B: Seat ?
PhD G: Great . Sea - yeah .
Grad H: Where {disfmarker} where you 're sitting .
Professor B: Oh ! Not {disfmarker} not the quality or anything . No .
PhD D: n
Grad H: Right .
Professor B: OK . I see .
Grad H: " It 's pretty soft and squishy . "
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD G: Alright .
Professor B: OK .
PhD G: OK .
Grad H: Oh , but that might just be me . Um .
PhD G: Alright .
Professor B: That 's more seat information than we wanted .
PhD G: Never mind .
PhD E: Hmm .
PhD G: I 'm just trying to figure out , you know , when Morgan 's voice appears on someone 's microphone are they next to him or are they across from him ?
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad H: Maybe we should bleep that out .
Professor B: Mmm , yeah .
PhD F: Wait a minute ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: how {disfmarker} how w eh where is it in the Key file ?
Grad H: Right . The square bracket .
PhD G: Cuz I mean I haven't been putting it in and {disfmarker} in by {disfmarker}
Grad H: You haven't been putting it in .
PhD G: Right .
Postdoc A: Well bu
PhD G: I have not .
Grad H: Oh , OK .
Postdoc A: Isn't it always on the digits ?
Professor B: Some of these are missing .
PhD G: And {disfmarker}
Professor B: Aren't they ?
Postdoc A: Isn't it always on the digits forms ?
Professor B: Some fall out of {disfmarker}
PhD G: Well it
Grad H: Yeah so we can go back and fill them in for the ones we have .
Grad C: Ooo .
PhD G: I mean they 're on th right , these , but I just hadn't ever been putting it in the Key files .
PhD F: Yeah I {disfmarker} I never {disfmarker}
PhD G: And I don't think Chuck was either
PhD F: I never knew we were supposed to put it in the Key file .
PhD G: cuz {disfmarker}
Grad H: I had told you guys about it
PhD F: Oh really ?
PhD G: Oh , so we 're both sorry .
Grad H: but {disfmarker}
PhD G: So {disfmarker}
Grad H: I mean this is why I wanna use a g a tool to do it rather than the plain text
PhD G: OK .
PhD F: OK .
Grad H: because with the plain text it 's very easy to skip those things .
PhD G: OK .
Grad H: So . Um if you use the Edit - key , or Key - edit {disfmarker}
PhD D: Edit - key .
Grad H: I think it 's Edit - key , {comment} command {disfmarker} Did I show you guys that ?
PhD D: Yep .
PhD F: You mentioned it ,
Grad H: I did show it to you ,
PhD F: yeah . Yeah .
Grad H: but I think you both said " no , you 'll just use text file " .
PhD F: Text .
Grad H: Um it has it in there , a place to fill it in .
PhD G: OK .
PhD F: OK .
Grad H: Yeah , and so if you don't fill it in , you 're not gonna get it in the meetings .
PhD G: So if {disfmarker} Right . Well I {disfmarker} I just realized I hadn't been doing it
Grad H: So .
PhD G: and probably {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}
Grad H: Yep .
Grad C: u
Grad H: Yeah and then the other thing also that Thilo noticed is , on the microphone , on channel zero it says hand - held mike or Crown mike ,
PhD G: Yeah . Right .
Grad H: you actually have to say which one .
PhD G: I know {disfmarker} Yeah , I usually delete the {disfmarker}
Grad H: So .
PhD F: Oh ! OK . I didn't do that either .
PhD G: I don't ,
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD G: maybe I forgot to d
PhD F: Takes me no time at all to edit these .
PhD G: But it 's almost {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad H: Yeah that 's cuz you kn
PhD F: I 'm not doing anything .
Grad H: I {disfmarker} I know why .
PhD G: And I was {disfmarker} I was looking at Chuck 's , like , " oh what did Chuck do , OK I 'll do that " . So .
Grad H: And then uh also in a couple of places instead of filling the participants under " participants " they were filled in under " description " .
Professor B: Ah , OK .
PhD G: Uh {disfmarker}
Grad H: And so that 's also a problem . So anyway .
PhD G: We will do better .
Grad H: That 's it . Oh uh also I 'm working on another version of this tool , the {disfmarker} the one that shows up here , {comment} that will flash yellow if the mike isn't connected . And it 's not quite ready to go yet because um it 's hard to tell whether the mike 's connected or not because the best quality ones , the Crown ones , {comment} are about the same level if they 're off and no one 's o off or if they 're on and no one 's talking .
Grad C: Huh .
Grad H: Um these {disfmarker} these ones , they are much easier , there 's a bigger difference . So I 'm working on that and it {disfmarker} it sorta works and so eventually we will change to that and then you 'll be able to see graphically if your mike is dropping in or out .
Grad C: Will that also include like batteries dying ? Just a any time the mike 's putting out zeros basically .
Grad H: Yep . Yep . Yep .
PhD F: But with the screensaver kicking in , it {disfmarker}
PhD D: But
Grad H: Now {disfmarker}
PhD D: y yeah .
Grad C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad H: Well I 'll turn off the screensaver too .
Grad C: Oops . Speaking of which .
Grad H: Um the other thing is as I 've said before , it is actually on the thing . There 's a little level meter but of course no one ever pays attention to it . So I think having it on the screen is more easy to notice .
Postdoc A: It would be nice if {disfmarker} if these had little light indicators , little L E Ds for {disfmarker}
Grad H: Uh buzzer .
Postdoc A: Yeah , a buzzer .
Grad H: " Bamp , bamp ! "
Professor B: Small shocks
Postdoc A: Yeah . Actually {disfmarker}
Professor B: administered to the {disfmarker} OK . Oh {disfmarker}
Grad H: OK , disk backup , et cetera ? Um I spoke with Dave Johnson about putting all the Meeting Recorder stuff on non - backed - up disk to save the overhead of backup and he pretty much said " yeah , you could do that if you want " but he thought it was a bad idea . In fact what he said is doing the manual one , {comment} doing uh NW archive to copy it {comment} is a good idea and we should do that and have it backed up . He w he 's a firm believer in {disfmarker} in lots of different modalities of backup . I mean , his point was well taken . This data cannot be recovered .
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad H: And so if a mistake is made and we lose the backup we should have the archive and if then a mistake is made and we lose the archive we should have the backup .
Professor B: Well I guess it is true that even with something that 's backed up it 's not gonna {disfmarker} if it 's stationary it 's not going to go through the increment it 's not gonna burden things in the incremental backups .
Grad H: Just {disfmarker} just the monthly full .
Postdoc A: Hmm .
Professor B: Yeah , so the monthly full will be a bear but {disfmarker}
Grad H: Yeah . But he said that {disfmarker} that we sh shouldn't worry too much about that , that we 're getting a new backup system and we 're far enough away from saturation on full backups that it 's w probably OK .
Professor B: Really ?
Grad H: And uh , so the only issue here is the timing between getting more disks and uh recording meetings .
Professor B: So I guess the idea is that we would be reserving the non - backed - up space for things that took less than twenty - four hours to recreate or something like that , right ?
Grad H: Things that are recreatable easily and also {disfmarker} Yeah , basically things that are recreatable .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad H: The expanded files and things like that .
Professor B: OK .
Grad H: They take up a lot more room anyway .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad H: Uh but we do need more disk .
Professor B: So we can get more disk . Yeah . So .
Grad H: Yeah . And I {disfmarker} I think I agree with him . I mean his point was well taken that if we lose one of these we cannot get it back .
Professor B: OK .
Grad H: I don't think there was any other et cetera there .
Professor B: Well I was allowing someone else to come up with something related that they had uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: I thought you guys were gonna burn C Ds ?
Grad H: Um unfortunately {disfmarker} we could burn C Ds but first of all it 's a pain .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad H: Because you have to copy it down to the PC and then burn it and that 's a multi - step procedure . And second of all the {disfmarker} the write - once burners as opposed to a professional press don't last .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad H: So I think burning them for distribution is fine but burning them for backup is not a good idea .
PhD E: I see . OK .
Grad H: Cuz th they {disfmarker} they fail after a couple years .
PhD E: Alright .
Postdoc A: I do have uh uh {disfmarker} It 's a different topic . Can I add one top topic ? We have time ? I wanted to ask , I know that uh that Thilo you were , um , bringing the Channeltrans interface onto the Windows machine ? And I wanted to know is th
PhD D: Yeah it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} Basically it 's done ,
Postdoc A: It 's all done ? That 's g wonderful . Great .
PhD D: yeah . Yeah .
Grad H: Yes , since Tcl - TK runs on it , basically things 'll just work .
PhD D: Yeah it {disfmarker} Yeah , it was just a problem with the Snack version and the Transcriber version but it 's solved .
Postdoc A: Does {disfmarker} and that {disfmarker} does that mean , I {disfmarker}
PhD D: So .
Postdoc A: maybe I should know this but I don't . Does this mean that the {disfmarker} that this could be por uh ported to a Think - Pad note or some other type of uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah , basically uh I did install it on my laptop and yeah
Postdoc A: Wonderful .
PhD D: it worked .
Postdoc A: Wonderful .
Professor B: Hmm ! Good . CrossPads ? CrossPads ?
Grad H: Uh got an email from uh James Landay who basically said " if you 're not using them , could you return them ? " So he said he doesn't need them , he just periodically w at the end of each term sends out email to everyone who was recorded as having them and asks them if they 're still using them .
Professor B: So we 've never used them .
Postdoc A: We used them once .
Professor B: Once ?
Grad H: We {disfmarker} we used them a couple times ,
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm . Couple times .
PhD F: Them ? There 's more than one ?
Grad H: but {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Professor B: i
Grad H: Yeah , we have two . Um .
Professor B: But {disfmarker}
Grad H: My opinion on it is , first , I never take notes anyway so I 'm not gonna use it , um and second , it 's another level of infrastructure that we have to deal with .
Postdoc A: And I have {disfmarker} uh so my {disfmarker} my feeling on it is that I think in principle it 's a really nice idea , and you have the time tags which makes it better tha than just taking ra raw notes . On the other hand , I {disfmarker} the down side for me was that I think the pen is really noisy . So you have ka kaplunk , kaplunk , kaplunk . And I {disfmarker} and I don't know if it 's audible on the {disfmarker} but I {disfmarker} I sort of thought that was a disadvantage . I do take notes , I mean , I could be taking notes on these things and I guess the plus with the CrossPads would be the time markings but {disfmarker} I don't know .
PhD D: Uh , what is a CrossPad ?
Professor B: So it 's {disfmarker} it 's um {disfmarker} it 's a regular pad , just a regular pad of paper but there 's this pen which indicates position .
Grad C: Thank you .
Professor B: And so you have time and position stuff stored
PhD D: OK .
Professor B: so that you can {disfmarker} you have a record of whatever it is you 've written .
PhD D: OK .
Grad H: And then you can download it and they have OCR and searching and all sorts of things .
PhD D: OK . OK .
Grad H: So i if you take notes it 's a great little device .
Postdoc A: Could {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .
Grad H: But I don't take notes ,
Professor B: And one of the reasons that it was brought up originally was because uh we were interested in {disfmarker} in higher - level things ,
Grad H: so .
Professor B: not just the , you know , microphone stuff but also summarization and so forth and the question is if you were going to go to some gold standard of what wa what was it that happened in the meeting you know , where would it come from ? And um I think that was one of the things ,
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad H: Yep .
Professor B: right ? And so the {disfmarker} it seemed like a neat idea . We 'll have a {disfmarker} you know , have a scribe , have somebody uh take good notes and then that 's part of the record of the meeting . And then we did it once or twice and we sort of {disfmarker}
Grad H: Yep , and then just sort of died out .
Professor B: probably chose the wrong scribe but it was {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It 's uh {disfmarker}
PhD G: I mean {disfmarker}
Grad H: Yeah that 's right .
Postdoc A: Well I did it one time
Grad H: Yep .
Postdoc A: but um {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
Postdoc A: u but I guess the {disfmarker} the other thing I 'm thinking is if we wanted that kind of thing I wonder if we 'd lose that much by having someone be a scribe by listening to the tape , to the recording afterwards and taking notes in some other interface .
PhD F: I mean we 're transcribing it anyways , why do we need notes ?
Postdoc A: Oh it 's la it 's useful ,
Grad H: Because that 's summary .
Postdoc A: have a summary and high points .
Professor B: Summary .
PhD G: I think {disfmarker} there 's also {disfmarker} there 's this use that {disfmarker}
PhD F: Summarize it from the transcription .
PhD G: the {disfmarker} Well , what if you 're sitting there and you just wanna make an X and you don't wanna take notes and you 're {disfmarker} you just wanna
PhD F: Doodle .
PhD G: get the summary of the transcript from this time location like {disfmarker} you know , and {disfmarker} and then while you 're bored you don't do anything and once in a while , maybe there 's a joke and you put a X and {disfmarker} {comment} But {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in other words you can use that just to highlight times in a very simple way . Also with {disfmarker} I was thinking and I know Morgan disagrees with me on this but suppose you have a group in here and you wanna let them note whenever they think there might be something later that they might not wanna distribute in terms of content , they could just sort of make an X near that point or a question mark that sort of alerts them that when they get the transcript back they c could get some red flags in that transcript region and they can then look at it . So . I know we haven't been using it but I w I can imagine it being useful just for sort of marking time periods
Grad H: Right .
PhD G: which you then get back in a transcript
Postdoc A: Well .
Professor B: I guess {disfmarker} so , you know , what {disfmarker} what makes one think i is maybe we should actually schedule some periods where people go over something later
PhD G: so .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and put some kind of summary or something uh you know , some {disfmarker} there 'd be some scribe who would actually listen , w who 'd agreed to actually listen to the whole thing , not transcribe it , but just sort of write down things that struck them as important . But {disfmarker} then you don't {disfmarker} you don't have the time reference uh that you 'd have if you had it live .
PhD G: Right . And you don't have a lot of other cues that might be useful ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: How do you synchronize the time in the CrossPad and the time of the recording ?
PhD G: so .
Grad H: I mean that was one of the issues we talked about originally and that that 's w part of the difficulty is that we need an infrastructure for using the time {disfmarker} the CrossPads and so that means synchronizing the time {disfmarker}
PhD G:
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .
Grad H: You know you want it pretty close and there 's a fair amount of skew because it 's a hand - held unit with a battery
Postdoc A: Well when {disfmarker} when I d
Grad H: and so you {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: OK .
Grad H: so you have to synchronize at the beginning of each meeting all the pads that are being used , so that it 's synchronized with the time on that and then you have to download to an application , and then you have to figure out what the data formats are and convert it over if you wanna do anything with this information .
Postdoc A: w Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Why {disfmarker}
Grad H: And so there 's a lot of infrastructure which
Postdoc A: There is an alternative .
Grad H: unless someone {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: There is an alternative , I mean , it 's still , there 's uh {disfmarker} you know , your point stands about there be {disfmarker} needing to be an infrastructure , but it doesn't have to be synchronized with the little clock 's timer on it . You c I mean , I {disfmarker} when I {disfmarker} when I did it I synchronized it by voice , by whispering " one , two , three , four " onto the microphone
Grad H: Hmm .
Postdoc A: and uh , you know .
Grad H: Well , but then there 's the infrastructure at the other end
PhD E: Right .
Grad H: which someone has to listen to that and find that point ,
Postdoc A: Yeah , it 's transcribed . It 's in the transcript .
Grad H: and then mark it .
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Grad H: So .
Postdoc A: Well it 's in the transcript .
PhD G: Well , could we keep one of these things for another year ? Would h I mean is there a big cau
Grad H: We can keep all {disfmarker} both of them for the whole whole year .
PhD G: just {disfmarker} just in case we {disfmarker}
Grad H: I mean , it 's just {disfmarker}
PhD G: even maybe some of the transcribers who might be wanting to annotate uh f just there 's a bunch of things that might be neat to do but I {disfmarker} it might not be the case that we can actually synchronize them and then do all the infrastructure but we could at least try it out .
Professor B: Well {disfmarker} one thing that we might try um is on some set of meetings , some collection of meetings , maybe EDU is the right one or maybe something else , we {disfmarker} we get somebody to buy into the idea of doing this as part of the task . I mean ,
PhD G: Right .
Professor B: uh part of the reason {disfmarker} I think part of the reason that Adam was so interested in uh the SpeechCorder sort of f idea from the beginning is he said from the beginning he hated taking notes and {disfmarker}
Grad H: Yep .
Professor B: and so forth so and {disfmarker} and Jane is more into it but eh uh you know I don't know if you wanna really do {disfmarker} do this all the time so I think the thing is to {disfmarker} to get someone to actually buy into it and have at least some series of meetings where we do it . Um {disfmarker} and if so , it 's probably worth having one . The p the {disfmarker} the problem with the {disfmarker} the more extended view , all these other you know with uh quibbling about particular applications of it is that it looks like it 's hard to get people to um uh routinely use it , I mean it just hasn't happened anyway . But maybe if we can get a person to {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yeah I don't think it has to be part of a what everybody does in a meeting but it might be a useful , neat part of the project that we can , you know , show off as a mechanism for synchronizing events in time that happen that you just wanna make a note of , like what Jane was talking about with some later browsing , just {disfmarker} just as a convenience , even if it 's not a full - blown note taking substitute .
PhD E: Well if you wanted to do that maybe the right architecture for it is to get a PDA with a wireless card . And {disfmarker} and that way you can synchronize very easily with the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the meeting because you 'll be synchroni you can synchronize with the {disfmarker} the Linux server and uh {disfmarker}
PhD G: So what kind of input would you be {disfmarker} ?
PhD E: so {disfmarker} so , I mean , if you 're not worried about {disfmarker}
Grad H: Buttons .
PhD G: You 'd just be pressing like a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker}
PhD E: Well {disfmarker} well you have a PDA and may and you could have the same sort of X interface or whatever , I mean , you 'd have to do a little eh a little bit of coding to do it .
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: But you could imagine ,
PhD G: Yeah , that be good .
PhD E: I mean , if {disfmarker} if all you really wanted was {disfmarker} you didn't want this secondary note - taking channel but just sort of being able to use m markers of some sort , a PDA with a l a wireless card would be the {disfmarker} probably the right way to go . I mean even buttons you could do , sort of , I mean , as you said .
Grad H: I mean for what {disfmarker} what you 've been describing buttons would be even more convenient than anything else ,
PhD G: M right .
PhD E: Right .
PhD G: That would be fine too .
Grad H: right ? You have the {disfmarker}
PhD G: I mean , I don't have , you know , grandiose ideas in mind but I 'm just sort of thinking well we 've {disfmarker} we 're getting into the next year now and we have a lot of these things worked out at {disfmarker} in terms of the speech maybe somebody will be interested in this and {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: I like this PDA idea . Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah , I do like the idea of having a couple buttons
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad H: Well I 'm sure there would {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Professor B: where like one {disfmarker} one button was " uh - oh " and then another button was " that 's great " and another button " that 's f "
PhD G: Or like this is my " I 'm supposed to do this " kind of button ,
Postdoc A: Yeah .
PhD G: like " I better remember to {disfmarker} "
Grad H: Action item .
PhD G: Yeah something like that or {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: And then {disfmarker}
Grad H: I mean I think the CrossPad idea is a good one .
Postdoc A: Uh - huh .
Grad H: It 's just a question of getting people to use it and getting the infrastructure set up in such a way that it 's not a lot of extra work . I mean that 's part of the reason why it hasn't happened is that it 's been a lot of extra work for me
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor B: Right .
Postdoc A: Well , and not just for you .
Grad H: and {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: But it 's also , it has this problem of having to go from an analog to a d a digital record too ,
PhD G: W
Postdoc A: doesn't it ? I mean {disfmarker}
Grad H: Well it 's digital but it 's in a format that is not particularly standard .
Postdoc A: But I mean , say , if i if {disfmarker} if you 're writing {disfmarker} if you 're writing notes in it does {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it can't do handwriting recognition , right ?
Professor B: No , no , but it 's just {disfmarker} it 's just storing the pixel informa position information ,
Postdoc A: OK .
Professor B: it 's all digital .
Postdoc A: I {disfmarker} I guess what I 'm thinking is that the PDA solution you h you have it already without needing to go from the pixelization to a {disfmarker} to a {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker}
Professor B: Right . You don't have to {disfmarker}
PhD E: The transfer function is less errorful ,
Postdoc A: Oh , nicely put .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: yes .
PhD G: Yeah , yeah .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD G: Well it also {disfmarker} it 's maybe realistic cuz people are supposed to be bringing their P D As to the meeting eventually , right ? That 's why we have this little {disfmarker} I don't know what {disfmarker} I don't wanna cause more work for anyone but I can imagine some interesting things that you could do with it and so if we don't have to return it and we can keep it for a year {disfmarker} I don't know .
Grad H: Well {disfmarker} w we don't {disfmarker} we certainly don't have to return it , as I said . All {disfmarker} all he said is that if you 're not using it could you return it , if you are using it feel free to keep it . The point is that we haven't used it at all and are we going to ?
Professor B: So we have no but {disfmarker} uh by I {disfmarker} I would suggest you return one . Because we {disfmarker} we you know , we {disfmarker} we haven't used it at all .
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad H: OK .
PhD G: We c
Professor B: We have some aspirations of using them
PhD G: One would probably be fine .
Professor B: and {disfmarker}
PhD G: Maybe we could do like a student project , you know , maybe someone who wants to do this as their main like s project for something would be cool .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad H: Yep . I mean if we had them out and sitting on the table people might use them a little more
Professor B: Maybe Jeremy could sit in some meetings and press a button when there {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when somebody laughed .
Grad H: although there is a little {disfmarker}
PhD G: Well , I 'm {disfmarker} yeah , that 's not a bad {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah , yeah . Yeah .
PhD G: Jeremy 's gonna be an {disfmarker} he 's a new student starting on modeling brea breath and laughter , actually , which sounds funny but I think it should be cool ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD G: so .
Grad H: Sounds breathy to me .
PhD G: OK . " Ha - ha - ha . "
Grad H: Breath and lau " ha - ha - ha - ha " . " Ha - ha - ha - ha . "
Professor B: Well dear .
Grad H: Um .
Professor B: Hmm .
Grad H: That reminded me of something . Oh well , too late . It slipped out .
Professor B: OK .
PhD G: You 're {disfmarker} you 're gonna tease me ?
Grad H: Oh , equipment .
PhD G: OK .
Grad H: Ordered {disfmarker} Uh , well I 'm always gonna do that . W uh {disfmarker} {comment} We ordered uh more wireless , and so they should be coming in at some point .
PhD G: Great .
Grad H: And then at the same time I 'll probably rewire the room as per Jane 's suggestion so that uh the first N channels are wireless , eh are the m the close - talking and the next N are far - field .
Professor B: You know what he means but isn't that funny sounding ? " We ordered more wireless . " It 's like wires are the things so you 're wiring {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we ordered more absence of the thing .
PhD G: That 's a very philosophical statement from Morgan .
Grad H: wired less , wired more .
PhD G: I just {disfmarker} it 's sort of a anachronism , I mean it 's like {disfmarker} It 's great .
Professor B: Anyway .
Grad H: Should we do digits ? Do we have anything else ?
Professor B: Yeah .
Postdoc A: OK .
Professor B: I mean there 's {disfmarker} there 's all this stuff going on uh between uh Andreas and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and Dave and Chuck and others with various kinds of runs uh um {disfmarker} recognition runs , trying to figure things out about the features but it 's {disfmarker} it 's all sort of in process , so there 's not much to say right now . Uh why don't we start with our {disfmarker} our esteemed guest .
PhD E: OK . Alright .
Grad H: So just the transcript number and then the {disfmarker} then the {disfmarker}
PhD E: This is {disfmarker} Yes , this is number two for me today .
Professor B: See all you have to do is go away to move way up in the {disfmarker}
PhD E: Oh .
PhD G: We could do simultaneous . Initiate him .
Professor B: We {disfmarker} we could .
Grad H: Should we do simultaneous ?
PhD G: Well , I 'm just thinking , are you gonna try to save the data before this next group comes in ?
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad H: Yeah , absolutely .
PhD G: Yeah , so we might wanna do it simultaneous .
Grad H: I mean you hav sorta have to .
Professor B: Well OK , so let 's do one of those simultaneous ones .
PhD G: Right , so {disfmarker} so we might n we might need to do that actually .
Professor B: That sounds good .
Grad H: OK .
PhD E: OK .
Professor B: Everybody ready ?
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Professor B: A one .
PhD G: You have to plug your ears , by the way uh Eric ,
Grad H: Well I have to ,
PhD D: You don't have to .
PhD E: OK , alright .
PhD G: or {disfmarker} or you start laughing .
Grad H: I don't know about other people .
Professor B: OK , a one and a two and a three . OK , babble , take five .
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Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask if there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2 this morning is the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill: Stage 2 proceedings. I'm pleased to welcome Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, deputy director, children and families division at Welsh Government; and Emma Gammon, lawyer for Welsh Government. Thank you for attending this morning and welcome to the committee. I'm just going to run through the procedures that we're going to follow now. As I said, the purpose of the meeting is to undertake Stage 2 proceedings on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. For these proceedings, Members should have copies of the marshalled list of amendments, the groupings of the amendments for debate and the voting order for the amendments. The marshalled list of amendments is the list of all amendments tabled, marshalled into the order in which the sections appear in the Bill. The order in which we consider amendments will be the default order—that is, sections 1 to 3 and the long title. You will see from the groupings list that amendments have been grouped to facilitate debate. However, the order in which they're called and moved for decision is dictated by the marshalled list. Members will, therefore, need to follow the two papers, although I will advise Members when I call them whether they're being called to speak in the debate or to move their amendments for a decision. There will be one debate on each group of amendments. Members who wish to speak in a particular group should indicate to me in the usual way. I will call the Deputy Minister to speak on each group. For the record, in accordance with the convention agreed by the Business Committee, as Chair I will move amendments in the name of the Deputy Minister. For expediency, I will assume that the Deputy Minister wishes me to move all of her amendments, and I will do so at the appropriate place in the marshalled list. Deputy Minister, if you do not want a particular amendment to be moved, please indicate to me at the relevant point in proceedings. In line with our usual practice, legal advisers to the committee and the Deputy Minister are not expected to provide advice on the record. If Members wish to seek legal advice during proceedings, please do so by passing a note to the legal adviser and, if necessary, we can adjourn. My intention is to try to dispose of all amendments during today's meeting. I will call a short break in proceedings at an appropriate time, if necessary. Okay, thank you. So, we will proceed, then, to group 1, which is the duty to promote public awareness. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 1 in the name of the Deputy Minister. I move amendment 1 in the Deputy Minister's name and call on the Deputy Minister to speak to her amendment and the other amendments in this group.
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair. My amendments 1 and 4 will place a duty on Welsh Ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law to ensure that the public are made aware of how the law will change as a result of the defence of reasonable punishment being abolished and that physical punishment would be prohibited once the Act commences. I tabled these amendments in response to this committee's recommendation—this was a recommendation from this committee in the Stage 1 report, so I have responded to that. I've already made a commitment to a high-intensity awareness-raising campaign over approximately six years from Royal Assent, should the Bill be passed. I've considered amendments 1A to 1E, which have been tabled by Janet Finch-Saunders, and which relate to the duty to raise awareness. Amendment 1A introduces a reference to public understanding. We don't think, actually, that this adds anything to the Government amendment, which already mentions awareness. It makes the awareness-raising duty open-ended with no time limit, which is not necessary. By commencement, messaging around the change in the law will be embedded. The awareness-raising campaign will continue for a number of years. Therefore, an ongoing duty referring specifically to the law change would not be required. I understand, of course, that the awareness-raising campaign needs to be comprehensive, well planned and to reach out to all those people and all those communities who need to be aware of the law change, and understand how to respond to it. But I don't think it's helpful or necessary to highlight specific groups, such as visitors to Wales, on the face of the Bill—that's the approach taken in amendment 1E—as it risks placing too much emphasis on certain groups at the expense of others. In relation to children, the committee will know that I'm fully committed to children’s rights, and that Welsh Ministers are already under a duty to have due regard to the rights of children whenever they exercise their functions. An additional due regard requirement, such as the one set out in amendment 1D, relating specifically to the need to promote awareness among children is not needed. This would be part and parcel of the Welsh Government approach to putting children’s rights at the heart of our policy making. Similarly, I don't think it's necessary for the Bill to set out specifically the topics that need to be covered in the awareness-raising campaign, as is suggested in amendments 1B and 1C. That level of detail, I don't think, is for the face of the Bill. Information required about parenting support will be considered by the parenting expert group, under the auspices of the Bill’s strategic implementation group, working with my officials and the expert stakeholder group on the awareness-raising campaign. And, really, their thinking should not be constrained in any way by specifications on the face of the Bill. I think we always need to bear in mind that what the Bill does is remove a defence to an existing criminal offence; it does not create a new offence. And in this context, it doesn't make sense for this Bill to contain a provision requiring the provision of information about how a person may raise concerns if it appears to them that a child is being physically punished. As I set out in my letter to this committee responding to recommendation 15 on this point, safeguarding is everyone’s business, and, as now, the public have a role in highlighting to relevant services if they are concerned about a child. I'm asking for the support of Members for amendments 1 and 4, and I ask Members to reject amendments 1A to 1E because this would place unnecessary provisions on the face of the Bill.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Are there other Members who wish to speak? Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair. I wish to speak to amendments 1A to 1E, which relate to the Deputy Minister's amendment on the duty to promote public awareness. While we believe it is absolutely imperative that the public are made aware of this controversial change in the law, the Deputy Minister's amendment lacks a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at Stage 1. An important thread runs throughout each and every amendment that I've tabled within this group—that of a sustained awareness campaign, which not only stretches beyond the implementation of the Bill, but serves as a duty for future administrations. Amendment 1A: primarily, amendment 1A changes amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law. I don't think it's enough for the Welsh Government to say that the public should be made aware of the coming into force of section 1 and that a public awareness campaign needs to be sustained until the Welsh Government's objectives have been achieved. Despite the fact that it is intended to change behaviour, the consequences of this law are far greater than that of organ donation or prohibiting smoking indoors. Instead of an opt-out system or a civil offence, this law will remove a defence for parents, information on which could be there on their records for the rest of their lives, potentially separate parents, and could affect employment chances. As such, whilst we agree with the necessity of the awareness campaign, it is important too that the Welsh Government take stock and ensures that parents are not penalised due to a weak awareness campaign. The witnesses we heard before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands—
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, Dawn is asking if you'll take an intervention.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes.
Dawn Bowden AM: I just wanted to know—could you give us examples of any other piece of legislation where there's been indefinite public awareness campaigns once it's been passed?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: There's a lot of legislation. The first Assembly term when I was here—
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, what I'm asking—
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I'm trying to respond—
Dawn Bowden AM: What I'm asking for is: can you give us specific examples of where there have been indefinite public awareness campaigns running indefinitely past the enactment of a piece of legislation?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: The very first term that I was an Assembly Member, we passed 25 pieces of separate legislation. Even today, as I sit here, the public are not aware of many of those pieces of legislation. This particular piece of legislation will have a profound effect on the parenting of children in Wales. So, therefore, I think there is a necessity for both children and parents to become involved, and I shall speak now—
Dawn Bowden AM: With respect, Chair, that's not the question I asked.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: —to my amendments.
Lynne Neagle AM: I can call you in the debate, if you'd like to make a more substantive contribution on this. Yes.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: The witnesses who we heard from before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands the implications. And that's what we're talking about here, Members—the implications of removing this defence. Strikingly, the Office of Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent stated the following: 'the potential for public resistance to the Bill through misunderstanding or confusion over it implications may pose the largest barrier to its implementation.' If you are intent on removing the defence of reasonable punishment, it is therefore not unreasonable to ensure that law-abiding parents fully understand the ramifications of this Bill. Additionally, the committee found that while the current Welsh Government's intention to deliver a public awareness campaign was beyond doubt, future Governments may have less of a commitment. This places further weight on the fact that the Welsh Government should be under a duty to promote awareness and understanding of the Bill beyond its commencement. Furthermore, the Children (Equal Protection from Assault) (Scotland) Bill quite clearly notes that, under section 2, the Scottish Ministers must take such steps as they consider appropriate to promote public awareness and understanding about the effect of section 1 on the abolition for the defence of reasonable punishment. Therefore, I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister can respond as to the reasons why the Welsh Government has deviated from this course of action in their amendment. [Interruption.] Should our amendment be agreed—
Lynne Neagle AM: Are you taking an intervention?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: No. I'd rather crack on, to be honest.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I can call you in the debate, Hefin.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Should our amendment to be agreed, we also request that a printing change be made to ensure that the new heading reflects promoting awareness of the changes to the law made by section 1. Amendment 1B: amendment 1B is in line with the committee's recommendation 9, which stated that, as part of a public awareness campaign, there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when disciplining their children. During evidence at Stage 1, the witnesses we saw before the committee raised serious concerns about harder-to-reach groups who needed to be made aware of removing the defence. For example, Children in Wales, Action for Children and Play Wales stated that some families and communities may be harder to reach with information and support. Welsh Government needs to make sure that they receive the information they need. Now, while the Deputy Minister states that she would work hard to ensure that harder-to-reach groups receive this information, a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would ensure that future Welsh Governments would maintain a successful awareness-raising campaign. I note the Deputy Minister accepted the recommendation, through our amendment, but this does not explicitly include a duty to provide details about support for parents. As will be expanded upon later, the Deputy Minister has relied upon the 'Parenting: Give it Time' campaign to be delivered alongside awareness raising. However, this is only an online resource and she must be clear about what other avenues will be available to parents who do not have access to the internet or are part of harder-to-reach groups. Amendment 1C: amendment 1C supports the committee's recommendation 15 that explains that the Welsh Government should ensure clear advice is provided on what people can do if they have seen or learned of a child being physically assaulted. We urged, at Stage 1, that although many professionals were already under a duty to report concerns about physical punishment, regardless of the Bill, other witnesses raised concerns that it could create the potential for claims of abuse that are unfounded. In particular, some were worried that children, who may not realise the implications of reporting, could make allegations that are actually untrue. While we would expect the awareness-raising campaign to include the consequences of false accusations, this could also be reflected among adults, if the public are not sufficiently made aware of how they can report and in what situations they can report a case of assault.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. I've got several speakers. I've got Suzy Davies first, then Dawn Bowden.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you Minister, and thank you, Janet, for that. I think it's worth just pointing out at this stage that the majority of the amendments that are being made and articulated by Janet there are based on committee recommendations, and those recommendations were made after taking evidence from the public at large, but also you as well. So, that suggests that, at that stage, we weren't reassured by the offer that you were making because we felt the need to put these recommendations into our report. Now, I recognise that you've moved some way on some of these amendments, and we'll been talking about that through the course of the debates on other groups. But the one thing to bear in mind here is this is legislation, now—that means that this is the instrument of the Assembly, not of Government, and if this Assembly feels that the face of the Bill is unclear on the minimum requirements of a public awareness campaign, then we have the right to suggest the things that we would like to see in that public awareness-raising campaign. The list that Janet has given is a minimum. The reason these have been tabled individually and independently is that some may be acceptable where others may not be, so it will be disappointing to hear that you're rejecting them all, and the reason they need to go on the face of the Bill is that, if you are going to introduce specifics via regulation, at the moment we have no reassurance about how you're going to do that—about what input the Assembly, on behalf of our constituents, could have in designing that public awareness-raising campaign. Unless you accept some amendments in other groups, that is the position with this Bill: the influence of the Assembly will be zero over the content of an awareness-raising campaign. In terms of it being non-time limited, I think the amendment has been tabled in the way it has not to oblige you to an everlasting, never-ending campaign of awareness raising. But if you bear in mind that, seven years after the introduction of this Bill, there's going to be some reporting on the effectiveness of the Bill, what is the point of doing that if you don't then have an obligation, should the reports require it to be necessary, to continue promoting the changes in the law? I accept that that can't go on for centuries, but to actually limit it to two years on an issue that is so sensitive, and which has a reach beyond our boundaries, I think is genuinely a mistake. Finally, you mention that safeguarding is everyone's business. I think that's true, but I think Janet Finch-Saunders was right to say that members of the public, ordinary individuals, not professionals, will need assurance that they're doing the right thing. The amendment as listed is not even there to encourage people to do that, although that can be read in that way, but it is to help them be certain that they are doing the right thing. If this is going to be up to the individual, as you've said, and the committee itself wasn't reassured that individuals would know what to do, perhaps I can ask you to consider at Stage 3, if you're going to reject this amendment, how you can reassure members of the public that, if they are going to intervene on the back of this law, they're making things better, not worse.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Suzy. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: My comments, really, relate to ongoing awareness-raising campaigns, which I think all of us would want to see, and would appreciate in any changes in legislation. My point, really, is that we have a plethora of legislation that this Assembly has passed in the last 20 years, and I'm not aware of any legislation where, on the face of the Bill we have ongoing awareness-raising campaigns on an indefinite basis. It seems to me that, for some reason, you seem to be wanting to take a completely different approach to this piece of legislation. From what the Deputy Minister is saying—and perhaps I will get some clarity on this—there will be an amendment to the legislation that will say that we have an awareness campaign. That awareness campaign can be the subject of consultation with interested parties in terms of what needs to be included in it. It could also, I assume, Deputy Minister, be an awareness campaign that can be written into a set of guidance for future use. But the point I'm trying to make is that I don't believe that any piece of legislation requires ongoing and indefinite awareness-raising campaigns, and particularly in relation to visitors to Wales. Again, we have other pieces of legislation in Wales that are not applicable in the other parts of the UK. I am not aware that there is a necessity for awareness-raising campaigns with visitors coming into Wales on the raft of the other pieces of legislation that we have that they don't. And similarly, when we go to visit countries that have different legislation, we don't necessarily know what legislation we're going into when we visit that country—you just go there and you accept that you go to a different country and you abide by their laws. So, my key point, Chair, is just the necessity of an ongoing, endless awareness campaign being written onto the face of the Bill.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Dawn. Hefin.
Hefin David AM: My comments follow logically from Dawn Bowden's comments, particularly in relation to amendments 1D and 1E. What you would be doing is that this Senedd, if this was on the face of the Bill, the duty on Ministers, would be putting the duty on Ministers in law beyond the life of the fifth Senedd, into the next Senedd term, and putting that duty on those newly elected Ministers after that, which, in principle, would be against the principles of binding—
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin, are you taking an intervention from Suzy?
Hefin David AM: Yes, happy to.
Suzy Davies AM: When you've finished your point.
Hefin David AM: I'm happy to take it now, because I was going to sum up by agreeing with the point you made, actually.
Suzy Davies AM: I'd love that. You referred to this potentially binding Ministers in future Assemblies; at the moment, we've got an implementation period and a five-year reporting period that takes any reporting on this Act into the Assembly after next. I'm wondering if you're going to have any comments on that when we come to the amendment to change that later on.
Hefin David AM: Well, when we get to that amendment, I'll make comments if I feel it necessary. But at this point in time, we're talking about amendments 1D and 1E, and particularly in relation to 1D and 1E it just isn't necessary, given the fact that—I won't call it a concession, because I think you made a reasonable point about the Minister making a statement at Stage 3, and I think Dawn Bowden actually supported that as well. That, therefore, makes those amendments unnecessary. Given that, in these circumstances, it is unnecessary to bind Ministers in future Parliaments. And that's my key point, really, which is why I wouldn't vote for those two amendments.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Siân.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you very much. I just want to speak against amendment 1A and also amendment 1B. I don't believe that there is a need for an indefinite campaign, as is outlined in 1A. I agree entirely that there is a need for a campaign during the period of change, and therefore I'm very glad to see that the Government has brought forward amendment 1, and I do hope that there will be a real push during the period of change. In terms of amendment 1B, I do have sympathy with what is being said here, but I believe that any kind of information or campaign in terms of enabling parents to learn about alternatives to physical punishment should be the subject of continual far-reaching work by the Government, through various programmes, and it should not be an addition on the face of this Bill, which deals with a small change to the common law. And then, on 1D also, if I may—I don't agree with this either. Again, I believe that there is a need to promote awareness amongst children, but that should happen through the children's rights convention, as part of a broader programme to promote children's rights.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Siân. I call on the Deputy Minister to speak, then.
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you all very much for your contributions to the debate and your comments on these amendments today. I just want to re-emphasise that it is as a result of the recommendation from this committee that we are putting this duty to have the awareness campaign on the face of the Bill, and I absolutely recognise the crucial role awareness raising has to play in supporting the implementation of the Bill. I'm very grateful for and appreciate the committee's interest and the work that you've done in this area of work. But I do think that these amendments are unnecessary. If we go through them, amendment 1A is really open-ended on promoting public awareness. We're committed to a high-intensity awareness over six years from Royal Assent, and there is an expert stakeholder group supporting us with the development of the awareness campaign. All the points that you've been making will be being considered by that group. I think the level of detail on the face of the Bill is not needed.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Would you just take an intervention on that just to help me understand? A two-year awareness-raising campaign—how have you concluded that—
Julie Morgan AM: Six-year.
Suzy Davies AM: I thought it was two years before section 1 comes into force.
Julie Morgan AM: We've got six years from Royal Assent.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, so it is going to continue beyond section 1 coming into force—
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Oh yes, it's going to continue.
Suzy Davies AM: That's very helpful.
Julie Morgan AM: Definitely, yes. So, I don't think that's needed, amendment 1A. Amendment 1B, about support available to parents and how to access it—again, this level of detail is not required on the face of the Bill. I just want to emphasise we have got this expert implementation group, who are working on all aspects of this Bill, many of whom represent organisations who gave evidence to this committee. The Bill is a simple one, with a clear purpose. It aims to remove the defence of reasonable punishment. I think lots of these amendments are very helpful and interesting, but would be discussed and would be acted on in the normal pathway of planning and development, and they're not required on the face of the Bill. So, I'm not putting them down, I'm just saying that we don't need them to be there on the face of the Bill. And then amendment 1C—the information about how to raise concerns—I do repeat that safeguarding is everybody's business, and the same issues apply now as will after this defence has been removed. Amendment 1D—Ministers to have regard to the need to promote awareness among children—now, children's rights are absolutely enshrined in our policy making, and the entire Bill is about protecting the rights of children. So, it is unnecessary duplication. So, we hope that the Bill will remain focused. Again, in terms of visitors, the level of detail is simply not required on the face of the Bill. Our awareness-raising campaign will be comprehensive. And then to pick up a few of the other points that were raised, revisions to the impact assessments are being considered as part of my commitment to update the explanatory memorandum ahead of Stage 3. So, there will be more details on the regulatory impact assessment. The issue that was raised about the Scottish Bill, that it refers to 'understanding'—now, the Scottish Bill was not a Government Bill, it was a private Member's Bill, and our view is that nothing is added by adding the 'understanding'; 'awareness' is sufficient. So, basically, I think that the points made have been very useful, but I urge committee members to accept my amendments, but to reject those proposed by Janet Finch-Saunders, as they are unnecessary provisions in terms of what the awareness-raising duty needs to achieve.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Before disposing of amendment 1, we will deal with the amendments to that amendment. Janet, do you wish to move amendment 1A?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I move.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. The question is that amendment 1A be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we have an objection. I therefore take a vote by show of hands. The question is that amendment 1A be agreed. All those in favour, please raise your hands. All those against. There voted two in favour, four against. So, amendment 1A is not agreed. Janet, do you wish to move amendment 1B?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I move.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 1B be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, I'll take a vote by show of hands. All those in favour of amendment 1B. All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against. Amendment 1B is not agreed. Janet, do you wish to move amendment 1C?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I move.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. The question is that amendment 1C be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. All those in favour of amendment 1C, please show. All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against, and amendment 1C is not agreed. Janet, do you want to move amendment 1D?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I move.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. The question is that amendment 1D be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, as there's an objection, I'll take a vote. All those in favour of amendment 1D, please show. All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against, and amendment 1D is not agreed. Janet, do you wish to move amendment 1E?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. The question is that amendment 1E be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. All those in favour of amendment 1E, please show. All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against, and amendment 1E is not agreed. If amendment 1 is not agreed, amendment 2C and amendment 4 will fall. Deputy Minister, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 1?
Julie Morgan AM: I do.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Okay. I move amendment 1 in the name of the Deputy Minister. The question is that amendment 1 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we have an objection, so we'll take a vote by show of hands. All those in favour of amendment 1. All those against. So, there voted four in favour, two against, and amendment 1 is agreed. We'll move on now then to group 2, which relates to the duty to report on the effect of the legislation. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 2, in the name of the Deputy Minister. I move amendment 2 in the Deputy Minister's name, and call on the Deputy Minister to speak to her amendments, and the other amendments in this group.
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you, Chair. The amendments in this group are to do with the post-implementation review of the Bill, and I believe there was also a committee recommendation to this end from your committee, so you strongly influenced this amendment. It's clear from Members' contributions to this group and recommendations by the committee at Stage 1 that they share my commitment to the importance of post-implementation review of the effect of the abolition of the defence of reasonable punishment. I've already provided assurance that I agree with the importance placed on such a review, both in the explanatory memorandum and during Stage 1 scrutiny. I also made a commitment to bring forward a Government amendment to put a duty to undertake a post-implementation review on the face of the Bill. I have done this with amendment 2. Amendment 5 sets out that this provision will come into force the day after Royal Assent. As I said in my responses to the Stage 1 committee report, and as set out in the explanatory memorandum, the post-implementation review of this Bill will not be a single piece of work, but a continuous programme of work during the years following the commencement of section 1. Firstly, we will continue to conduct attitudinal surveys, which will be used to track changes in attitude towards the physical punishment of children and prevalence of parents reporting that they use physical punishment. The surveys will also be used to monitor the effectiveness of our awareness-raising campaign. Secondly, through a dedicated task and finish group, we are working with organisations to put in place arrangements to establish robust methods for capturing meaningful data relating to the Bill and to consider the possible impact on services. Turning to amendment 2C, this amendment would require Welsh Ministers to prepare and lay before the Assembly a report on the effect of their promotion of public awareness before section 1 is commenced. This amendment is unnecessary and is in conflict with what I think is a priority for the implementation of this Bill: that is, given certainty on the commencement date and in enabling us to work towards this with our partners and stakeholders. I also think this amendment is not required because, as I've already stated, we are preparing to assess the effectiveness of our awareness raising. In June, I shared the findings of a representative survey, which establishes a baseline on public awareness and opinion towards physical punishment of children and the proposed legislation. I shared this with the committee.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. I open it up for discussion now, then. Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair. I speak to amendments 2C, excluding 2D, to 2K, which relate to the Deputy Minister's amendment 2 on preparing a published report on the effect of abolishing the defence of reasonable punishment. Again, I must stress the importance of getting this right due to the controversial and long-lasting effects of removing the defence of reasonable punishment. Amendments 2E to 2K outline what we would expect to be within this report, and we would wish to see a commitment from the Deputy Minister to ensure the National Assembly for Wales is fully apprised and able to scrutinise the result of this report. Amendment 2C requests that the Welsh Government prepare a report on the awareness-raising campaign and lays it before the Assembly before section 1 commences. As I have outlined under my amendments in group 1, the understanding of the public about the implications of the Bill cannot be sidelined. Although the Deputy Minister has repeated her commitment to a public awareness campaign, we, as the National Assembly for Wales, must be able to scrutinise its effectiveness before section 1 begins. As I noted under amendments 1B to 1E, there are specific groups of people who need to be evaluated on their understanding of the Bill's effect. I'm sure that the Deputy Minister will agree that the harder-to-reach groups are undoubtedly the most vulnerable to any negative impacts that the Bill will have because of the greater potential of a lack of awareness. It is, therefore, important for the Assembly to be able to determine whether the awareness-raising campaign has had a positive effect on these groups of people. As will also be elaborated under amendment 2D, it is extremely important that we, as the Parliament of Wales, are fully apprised of the awareness-raising campaign's impact. Before we implement what will be a criminal offence, it is vital that we ensure that those affected are not adversely impacted because of a poorly targeted awareness campaign. Therefore, I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister would commit to an independent evaluation of the awareness campaign's effects before section 1 commences.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Janet. Suzy Davies.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. Deputy Minister, first of all, can I just say thank you for your opening remarks about the possibility of perhaps doing some work around amendment 2B? I'll come to that a little bit later, if I may. I just want to begin by commenting briefly on what you said about why you'll be rejecting amendment 2C here. I actually don't think that this amendment should affect or jeopardise the commencement date in any way at all. It's an operational requirement to get this work done before the commencement date that's in the draft Bill at the moment. So, failing to meet that would be as a result of operations not going well, rather than anything intrinsic in the Bill, so I'm not sure I can accept your argument on that. And, on 2D—very pleased to hear that you'd be willing to introduce something about 'laying' rather than 'publishing' at Stage 3, but, in the spirit of recognising that this is the legislature, perhaps I could encourage you just to accept the amendment at this stage, because it doesn't make any difference. Your amendment is going to pass, and this amendment to it would be—I think the gesture there would be very much appreciated. I'll be speaking mainly to amendments 2A and 2B, but I want to begin, again, by thanking you for moving some way on this and considering amendments to the Bill on the issue of reporting, because I know you were keen to avoid amendments in the name of simplicity; you mentioned it earlier. But this is not a newid bychan, I'm afraid, Siân; the terms and the effect of this Bill are quite extensive, and it does need the reassurances, if you like, necessary to mitigate potentially disproportionate effects of this Bill on families where parents' actions had been lawful up until this point in statute. It does need statutory underpinning. So, I am grateful to you for accepting this duty. I know that you're sincere that you want this duty to report to show that the Bill is effective in stopping smacking as a punishment, and also that it is not as harmful to parents as perhaps some of us fear. But, if this were me bringing forward this Bill, I think I'd want to show the world that I was doing the right thing a lot sooner than you appear to wish to do. Amendment 2 means that the efficacy of the Bill will not formally be assessed until seven years after it has passed. There are Acts on the statute book that have lasted a lot less time than that. If you're relying on the two-year period before section 1 comes into operation to do much of the heavy lifting on the culture change, and I think that is what you're expecting—you know, showing a reduction in the incidence of physical punishment, reducing the number of, and indeed the likelihood of, parents putting themselves in the path of criminal liability once those two years are up—I really would have thought you'd want people to know sooner, or as soon as the first possible opportunity on that. Waiting five years, I think, will diminish the ability of you to prove the efficacy of those initial two years, and this is why I'm grateful to you for your offer, because there may be a way where we can overcome that. If the trend of culture change is continuing after year 3—so, basically, in the first year after section 1 comes into effect—that's great, but there's a possibility it's going to reverse. Again, I don't think I'd want to wait five years to find that out. For myself, I think one year would probably be enough, but I think three years is a reasonable compromise, as opposed to five years, for a reporting period. I think seven years is just way too long for a formal evaluation of a Bill's effectiveness. I can't see the reason for quite that length of time—I know you've talked about New Zealand—but neither can the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee. I think that's worth pointing out. When they took the step of recommending this duty to evaluate and report, they also took the step of suggesting a three-year reporting period being more in keeping with other post-legislative scrutiny. That's something I think we perhaps need to bear in mind now, as we enter this period of the consolidation of law. Five/seven years is really something of an outlier, and while that might have been appropriate, perhaps, in New Zealand, I don't think that fits in with our timetables generally here in Wales, and, of course, there are other countries that have introduced this over a period of years, and I note that you haven't drawn on them in order to support your argument. So, can I urge Members and the Minister to consider the arguments behind these amendments? I don't think it's going to reassure anyone—you may want to intervene at this point, Hefin—that we not only won't hear in this Assembly, we won't hear in the next Assembly, about the formal evaluation of this, unless I follow—
Hefin David AM: I won't intervene; I'll speak.
Suzy Davies AM: Is that okay?
Hefin David AM: Yes, I'll make the point.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, I've got—
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, I'll take the intervention.
Lynne Neagle AM: No, he doesn't want to make an intervention—
Hefin David AM: I won't do an intervention; I'll speak.
Lynne Neagle AM: —he'll make a contribution.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, apologies—
Hefin David AM: Just to say—
Suzy Davies AM: I'll wait.
Hefin David AM: Well, let me put the intervention—. I'll do it as an intervention, then. I just feel that—I take your point, and I was expecting it. The point I was making about 1D and 1E is they close down choices to Ministers in future Assemblies. An evaluative practice would actually open up those choices and give future Parliaments more options with regard to this Bill, so I think it's entirely consistent. I don't think the Minister, in putting in amendment 2, was trying to undermine my argument. Actually, I think she's being constructive by doing that, and I think amendment 2 is a practical amendment that's quite helpful, and its consequence will be to open up choices to future Parliaments, whereas my objection to 1D and 1E is they close those down.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, well, as I say, I think, actually, the Deputy Minister's offer of a three-year interim period might be part of a resolution to this. Because I'm not 100 per cent sure I accept your argument, either, because it closes it down for the interim period if we don't move on with the Deputy Minister's suggestion—which I'll talk about now, actually. Because I am tempted to accept your offer. It absolutely makes sense and it's clearly made with the best good faith here. But I need some clarity on what you would allow this Assembly to do in helping define the terms of that interim report. Because you've been very clear that you don't want to accept the things that Janet Finch-Saunders has been talking about in a final report, and yet I can tell you we want to hear about these things. So, if you're in a position where you can give a commitment at Stage 3 not only to introduce an interim report, but that you will consult with, perhaps, this committee—I'll leave it to you—on the contents of that interim report, what we would want to see tested, then I'll be minded not to move amendment 2B. If you can't give me that reassurance, then I'm going to move it anyway and we'll return to it at Stage 3, if you don't mind. Just a final point on this issue of reporting within three months rather than as soon as practicable, and I do take your point that there may be a misalignment with reporting periods from the organisations you hope to talk to. Again, at Stage 3, I'm happy if you want to make three months six months, or something like that, but 'as soon as practicable' is open ended, and what you think is practicable may be very different from what I or my constituents think is practicable. So, I don't want to stick with what is practicable; I would like you to put a date on this. If it's a case that you think six months is long enough for data gathering and reporting from third parties, I think that's fairly reasonable as well, but I'm not minded to allow you to just keep this open ended. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Suzy. Siân.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, I welcome adding to the Bill through amendment 2, and what you've said today also, that you're willing to provide an interim report and bring an amendment forward to allow that through the Bill, and to lay a report before the Assembly. I am interested in what Suzy is saying, and have a lot of sympathy with trying to tie it down to specific time periods, and not say 'when it will be practicable'. Therefore, I would encourage you not to move your amendments if you have the confirmation that you want to hear this morning from the Minister regarding these issues.
Suzy Davies AM: I would like to. Thanks.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Any other Members? No. Deputy Minister.
Julie Morgan AM: Well, just to start off on that point, I think your suggestion about how we consult and discuss, I think I'm very happy to accept that. So, I'm happy to discuss that with you, and with the committee, before the third Stage. So, I hope you will consider removing—.
Suzy Davies AM: No, genuinely I am.
Julie Morgan AM: Right, thank you. Well, just to go on to cover some of the points that have been raised, on the issue of training now, I think Janet raised a number of points about training, and we do have an operations, procedures, processes and training task and finish group as part of our implementation work, and they are considering guidance and training requirements. There are many professional bodies represented on that group, many of whom I think have given evidence here today, and they've really got a chance to have their say. The officials are also looking at training as part of the revision of the explanatory memorandum at Stage 3, so there will be more information about training there. But we have this group looking at it, and it is very key. Generally, I think that all the contributions are very helpful, and I know they're meant in the spirit of trying to improve the legislation. I can't support amendments 2A, 2C, and amendments 2E to 2K, because these amendments make little difference in terms of practical effect to what we have in the Bill already, or they're covered by the Government amendments that I've moved. But I do hope the committee is reassured that we are committed to undertaking a very thorough, multifaceted review of the impact of the legislation that includes tracking public attitudes and considering impacts on public services. Now, tracking the public attitudes will be going along at regular points, so there's no question there of having to wait; we'll be having regular reporting of public attitudes.
Suzy Davies AM: Would you take an intervention there, Deputy Minister? Thank you very much. Of course, I appreciate that you will not be supporting these amendments, but can you give us some indication of how many of the areas of interest to us you will be reporting on? So, even if this is not a statutory commitment, what exactly from our list, our wish list here, would you be prepared to include in your evaluation?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, I would actually have thought all of them. All the areas you've raised are very relevant, I think. Obviously, this is not a statutory thing I'm saying, but—
Suzy Davies AM: No, no, and this is not a—
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, but considering those points you've put forward, I think all of them have got a great deal of relevance. We will certainly be reporting to the group to consider any of the ideas that you've suggested and, in particular with the data collection and the monitoring task and finish group, which is about developing methods to collect data, we will be putting forward some of the suggestions that you've made on those issues. So, I don't see any problem with that at all.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Julie Morgan AM: So, as I say, I can't support the amendments. I'm hopeful you may withdraw the two amendments—I think one of yours and it was one of Janet's, wasn't it—so that we could work together on those before the next stage. Because I am sympathetic to your views on these matters, and I think they do reflect some of the discussions in the committee as well. So, I'd be happy to work with you to bring forward the amendments at Stage 3. In line with the recommendations of the Finance Committee, further details of the costs associated with the post-implementation review will be provided in a revised regulatory impact assessment at Stage 3. So, I think at this point I would ask that Members reject the non-Government amendments and agree to my amendments 2 and 5, which will ultimately achieve the same policy aim without the need for unnecessary detail on the Bill, with the exception, obviously, of those two amendments, which I'm prepared to look at a way of moving forward on.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Deputy Minister. Before disposing of amendment 2, we will deal with the amendments to that amendment. Janet, do you wish to move amendment 2C?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I move.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 2C be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote by show of hands. All those in favour of amendment 2C, please show. All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against. Amendment 2C is lost. Suzy, do you wish to move amendment 2A?
Suzy Davies AM: I move amendment 2A, yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 2A be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. All those in favour of amendment 2A, please show. All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against. Amendment 2A is not agreed. Janet, do you wish to move amendment 2D?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I move.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, do you wish to move amendment 2E?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I move.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 2E be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. All those in favour of amendment 2E, please show. All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against. Amendment 2E is not agreed. Janet, do you wish to move amendment 2F?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I move.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 2F be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so can I see all those in favour of amendment 2F? All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against, and amendment 2F is not agreed. Janet, do you wish to move amendment 2G?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I move.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 2G be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, can I see all those in favour of amendment 2G? All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against, and amendment 2G is not agreed. Janet, do you wish to move amendment 2H?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I move.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 2H be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so can I see all those in favour of amendment 2H? All those against? So, there voted two in favour, four against. Amendment 2H is not agreed. Janet, do you wish to move amendment 2I?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I move.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 2I be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. Can I see all those in favour of amendment 2I? All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against. Amendment 2I is not agreed. Janet, do you wish to move amendment 2J?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I move.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 2J be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. Can I see all those in favour of 2J? All those against? So, there voted two in favour, four against. Amendment 2J is not agreed. Janet, do you wish to move amendment 2K?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I move.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 2K be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I'll therefore take a vote by show of hands. All those in favour of amendment 2K? All those against? So, there voted two in favour, four against. Amendment 2K is not agreed. Suzy, do you wish to move amendment 2B?
Suzy Davies AM: In view of the Deputy Minister's reassurances, I won't move this amendment today, but obviously I reserve the right to bring something back if we can't reach consensus. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Does any other Member wish to move amendment 2B? Okay, no. Thank you. We'll move on, then. If amendment 2 is not agreed, amendment 5 will fall. Deputy Minister, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 2?
Julie Morgan AM: I do.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. The question is that amendment 2 be agreed. Does any Member object? Amendment 2—
Suzy Davies AM: Objection.
Lynne Neagle AM: You're objecting?
Suzy Davies AM: Yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Right, we'll therefore take a vote. All those in favour of amendment 2, please show. All those against. So, there voted four in favour, two against, and amendment 2 is agreed. That takes us on to group 3, which relates to the regulation-making powers in the Bill. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 3 in the name of the Deputy Minister. I move amendment 3 in the Deputy Minister's name and call on the Deputy Minister to speak to her amendments and the other amendments in this group.
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair. Members will note that I've brought forward an amendment to provide certainty on the date of commencement of the core provision in the Bill, which is obviously to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment. And that is going to be debated under group 5. So, we're obviously debating that after we deal with these particular technical issues—these are technical issues here, basically. As a consequence of proposing to remove the power for a Welsh Minister to make an Order for commencement, the power to make transitory, transitional or saving provisions in connection with section 1 of the Bill coming into force would also be removed. So, I'm not seeking here to add any new powers to the Bill; amendment 3 will simply add this existing power back onto the face of the Bill where amendments 7 and 8 remove it, and amendment 6 will bring the power into force the day after Royal Assent. In fact, removing the power for the Welsh Ministers to commence the provision in section 1 by Order means the statutory instrument will actually do less than originally intended. These amendments are technical in nature and while I acknowledge that the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee raised the issue of what procedure should be applied, their report did not call for any change to no procedure being applied. The absence of an Assembly procedure does not mean that Ministers' decisions in relation to transitional powers cannot be scrutinised by the Assembly. Any concerns about the Welsh Ministers' proposals could be put to me in the Senedd. This was a point made to CLAC and, as I say, their final conclusion was that no procedure is the appropriate procedure for such a power. For those reasons, I encourage Members to reject amendment 3A from Suzy.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Suzy Davies.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you very much. Well perhaps, Deputy Minister, I can begin by saying that one person's technical issue is another person's essential part of the legislative procedure and a keen element in scrutiny. But I thank you for noting the Assembly's observations on the ministerial powers granted in this Bill—this time by CLAC, as you say. Moving this—and I'm glad actually that amendment 8, I think it was, has removed an Order provision and we're moving into an area where at least statutory instruments do feature here. I have to say that amendment 3A is something of a probing amendment, and I'll explain why now. Your amendment 3 seeks to give a familiar range of powers in connection with the coming into force of section 1, but it's actually in a substantive part of section 1 itself now—it's not a separate commencement power. And, actually, I've been listening to the rest of this debate, and thinking that, if you're going to be introducing an awareness campaign and a report, the chances are you're going to need some regulatory powers to introduce some of the aspects of both those policy areas, I think. And I'm wondering whether the—what is it—transitory, transitional and saving provisions are actually enough powers for you under the course of this Bill. I'm wondering whether you want to consider actually amending this to give yourself the more usual unrestricted power to make regulations in order for you to get section 1 implemented, bearing in mind that it has now been amended from that original, very short and simple—or at least simple in terms of drafting—initial draft. As I say, in anticipation of you rejecting amendments in group 1 I tabled this, in order to make sure that an opportunity remains for the Assembly to bring anything you may wish to introduce under section 1, when it comes into effect, onto the floor of the Assembly. Because while I completely accept that you've acknowledged that statutory instrument is the process for introducing things from now on, it's still possible to do that without procedure, and so I have no idea whether you think what you introduce would be better suited to be introduced by a negative or affirmative procedure. Amendment 3A is a holding position, which we will return to you in Stage 3, because I think, again, this is an area where it might be valuable for us to discuss quite what kind of powers you're looking for, because I think you probably need something that's beyond transitional, transitory and saving.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Suzy, have you finished?
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Are there any other Members who wish to speak on this group? No. Deputy Minister.
Julie Morgan AM: I thank Suzy for that input. We don't actually think it's necessary to have wider powers, but we will keep this under review and at Stage 3, I think that—. When I was looking at this, I was concerned to know what the transitory powers—what we would actually need to do at that stage, but I can understand that there may be links to other Bills in ways that we are not anticipating at the moment that would make it necessary to have those powers. So, basically, I don't think it is necessary to have wider powers, but I can assure you that we'll keep that in review coming up to Stage 3.
Suzy Davies AM: Can I just ask a question on the back of that?
Lynne Neagle AM: Will you take a brief intervention at the end, Minister?
Suzy Davies AM: Will you take the briefest intervention before your full stop?
Julie Morgan AM: I was going to end there, yes.
Suzy Davies AM: Right, okay, well, just before your full stop, would you just confirm that you're happy for us to discuss this before Stage 3?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, very happy. Yes.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Before disposing of amendment 3, we will deal with the amendment to that amendment. Suzy, do you wish to move amendment 3A?
Suzy Davies AM: I'll move it, yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 3A be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, I'll take a vote by show of hands. All those in favour of amendment 3A. All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against. Amendment 3A is not agreed. If amendment 3 is not agreed, amendment 6 will fall. Deputy Minister, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 3?
Julie Morgan AM: I do.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 3 be agreed. Does any Member object? Amendment 3 is therefore agreed. The committee will now break for 10 minutes and reconvene at 11.05 a.m. Can I welcome Members back? We will move on to group 4, which relates to the duty to ensure sufficient funding. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 11 in the name of Janet Finch-Saunders. I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move amendment 11 and to speak to her amendments. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. I speak to both amendments in this group. As I outlined under amendments 2I and 2J, there are ongoing concerns about the potential costs for Welsh devolved authorities and the lack of quantifiable costs within the regulatory impact assessment. Now, it was absolutely clear from evidence that we received in this committee that unknown costs would be challenging and potentially problematic. As I have mentioned previously, these concerns would doubtless be most keenly felt in our hard-pressed social services. Furthermore, the Welsh Local Government Association stated that there must be a commitment that whatever the costs are, those costs are met, because it is legislation that is being led by the National Assembly for Wales. Now, during evidence, the Deputy Minister, when asked about the reliance on a limited number of reporting of cases likely to happen and the potential for a degree of unknown costs stated: 'we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate.' But you couldn't commit to a broad figure, instead telling us that: 'we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us.' And: 'We have to measure it as we go along.' Given that devolved authorities need to plan their budgets for these changes, we only think it is fair for the Welsh Government to provide sufficient funding to alleviate the cost implications of this Bill. Now, while amendment 11 makes reference to costs borne by local authorities and health boards, I note that amendment 12 takes this further by including other devolved authorities that are not funded by Welsh Government. Anticipating the Deputy Minister's response that few under this category, if any at all, would be affected by the Bill, we are pursuing a principle here, and it is agreement to the principle of providing sufficient funding that we are seeking from you as the Deputy Minister. Now, these are just two examples of Welsh Government legislation to date that have been underfunded. The Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013: last year, the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee found that the Wales annual spend on walking and cycling is half that of England's and one sixth of Holland's. Furthermore, the committee highlighted that the passing of the Act put a requirement on local authorities to continuously improve active travel routes, but were constrained by the funding made available to them. The Minister at the time announced a three-year funding settlement of £60 million. Now, my local authority and other authorities that have done some monitoring on the active travel Act—they simply were not awarded sufficient funding to actually allow the active travel Act to become a meaningful piece of legislation, and the same goes with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. This month, the auditor general has raised concerns that the public services boards created under the Act were limited in their work and impact due to the lack of dedicated funding. Outside of the Welsh Government's regional grant that cannot be spent on projects, councils often contribute through officer time or facilities, but resources and capacity to support those PSBs remain a key risk, as partners don't have the capacity to take on more. The reason that I wanted these amendments placed in here is I genuinely do not believe that you've even envisioned what, or even estimated the likely cost to be borne by the organisations, and certainly our local authorities and health boards, the impact this Bill is going to have.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Janet. Are there other Members who would like to speak in this group, please? No. Okay. I call the Deputy Minister, then.
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you, Chair. I can understand that the Member is concerned about the impact of this Bill on public services, but you will see from the explanatory memorandum and from the raft of impact statements published with the Bill that we've done a thorough and extremely diligent job of considering the potential impacts of this Bill before introduction. And as far as we're aware, no other country has done more than us to consider the impacts of similar legislation, and also comprehensively prepared for implementation. We've explored the published data, which is available from other countries, on the impact of measures they've taken to prohibit the physical punishment of children. We've also spoken to a range of stakeholders in Ireland, New Zealand and Malta, who have legal systems similar to our own. And in these countries, there is no evidence that public services have been overwhelmed following law reform. And stakeholders have been clear when giving evidence to this committee that they do not consider there will be runaway costs, and I think we should trust their judgment on this. In fact, as this committee notes in its Stage 1 report, those delivering services on the front line have said, without exception, that 'this Bill will improve their ability to protect children living in Wales because it will make the law clear.' Sally Jenkins of the Association of Directors of Social Services said to this committee: 'In terms of thresholds for children’s services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that’s likely to happen.' That's from the front line. Jane Randall, chair of the National Independent Safeguarding Board Wales, said: 'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals coming through to local authority social services, I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.' And Dr Rowena Christmas, Royal College of General Practitioners, said: 'I can't see it's going to lengthen consultations. I can't see that it's going to increase the number of consultations, and I don't think it's going to increase the number of referrals I make to the health visitor or to social services, because if I was worried, I'd make those referrals now regardless of the Bill.' I just want to say again that the Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault, which has formed part of the common law of England and Wales for a very long time. And social services already receive and investigate reports of children being assaulted, including from health and education, so it's not a whole new area of costly activity for any of them. I do think that the evidence that you had at your committee did highlight those points. As I've already pointed out when discussing group 2 amendments, we're working with organisations to put in place arrangements to collect data about the possible impact on their services, and this will be analysed as part of the post-implementation review of the legislation. Welsh Government can consider with relevant organisations how best to manage any impact on workloads or resources and any cost implications. I can assure you that work to update the regulatory impact assessment has continued, and I've asked officials to prepare a revised RIA, as recommended at Stage 2, and I expect to share an updated RIA with you in advance of Stage 3. Serious consideration is being given on how to provide more detailed estimates of the unknown costs to public services arising from the Bill, but I think you should be reassured by the evidence that was given, particularly to this committee, from the professionals at the front line. What the amendments are proposing is outside the normal funding arrangements that operate within Government, and it's not clear why, in the context of the evidence heard at Stage I, such provisions are necessary. I'm sure that Members will agree that future Governments need to be able to consider, within the context of the budget-setting process, what the priorities are, and these considerations would need to be made within the context at that time, for example taking into account any issues that there are—UK Government actions, what happens in relation to Brexit, or any other unforeseen impacts on the economy or Welsh society. All those issues would have to be taken into account. Furthermore, as is the case now, the National Assembly for Wales scrutinises the Welsh Government budget annually, so it would be able to make an argument for additional funding for public bodies, should it consider that this is required. I do think all the evidence has shown that we do not anticipate that there will be a huge increase of a demand for funding, so I urge Members to reject these amendments, which I believe are unnecessary.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Chair, could I ask a question?
Lynne Neagle AM: You can reply to the debate now, Janet, yes.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I'd like to ask a question of the Deputy Minister. When we were taking evidence, at an earlier stage, I noticed that part of the stakeholder group—there was some liaison going on with social services departments across Wales. Now, we have 22 local authorities. At that time, the numbers mentioned were quite small—I think only a handful. What discussions have taken place with our local authorities in terms of their social services departments in terms of the lead, the cabinet members, or, indeed, the head of service? I can speak from my own experiences, when going around my constituency, but when I've spoken to some of the family support groups, and, indeed, the departments themselves, they are very concerned about the financial impact that this is going to have on the provision. They're already overstretched, and they see this as another burden—primarily another financial burden. So, how much have you engaged with them?
Julie Morgan AM: There's been extensive engagement. We've had meetings with the Association of Directors of Social Services, and they're represented on all our groups, and we're working very closely with them, because, of course, they represent all the local authorities. But I have to say, when I've been going round and meeting lots of different groups, the first thing they say is, 'I'm so glad that you're doing this', and they haven't mentioned any financial implications. But, obviously, we will be very aware of—we are looking at any more evidence that comes up.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. So, I'll still move my amendments. I'm disappointed, really. I was hoping to see some commitment to—this Bill was going to go through, and it's one that could be implemented fully, because sufficient resources were there. I'm not convinced about that, and I know that other organisations are not also. So, I move my amendments.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 11 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I therefore take a vote by show of hands. All those in favour. All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against. Amendment 11 is not agreed. Janet, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 12?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I move.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 12 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 12. All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against. Amendment 12 is not agreed. Deputy Minister, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 4?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I move amendment 4 in the name of the Deputy Minister. The question is that amendment 4 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. All those in favour of amendment 4, please show. All those against. So, there voted four in favour, two against, and amendment 4 is agreed. Deputy Minister, do you want to proceed to a vote on amendment 5?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: I move amendment 5 in the name of the Deputy Minister. The question is that amendment 5 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. All those in favour of amendment 5, please show. All those against. So, there voted four in favour, two against, and amendment 5 is agreed. Deputy Minister, do you want to move to a vote on amendment 6?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: I move amendment 6, then, in the name of the Deputy Minister. The question is that amendment 6 be agreed. Does any Member object? Amendment 6 is therefore agreed. This takes us, then, to the fifth and final group, which relates to commencement. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 9 in the name of Suzy Davies. And I call Suzy Davies to move amendment 9 and to speak to the amendment and the other amendments in the group.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you very much, Chair. Amendment 9 is actually consequential on amendment 10 passing, but it's the lead amendment in the group, so I'll move it to begin the debate. Minister, I'm speaking here now to amendments 10 and 15 specifically. You've said repeatedly, and I believe you, that you do not wish to criminalise parents but just to stop them physically punishing their children. You could have chosen to try and achieve this through awareness raising and civil enforcement, but by choosing to remove the defence to a criminal act you have entered the arena of criminal law, where the logical consequence is opening parents up to liability—not necessarily getting prosecuted, but liability to prosecution, not just liability to civil sanctions. I'm sure you'd prefer parents not to be prosecuted, but that decision does not and cannot lie with you. You, like us, have no agency in this, because the powers and the duties of the police and the Crown Prosecution Service sit outside our competence. You cannot and we cannot, by law or otherwise, instruct either of them in the delivery of your policy intention of not criminalising parents. You've acknowledged to this committee and the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee that revised CPS charging guidance and any other guidance on, for example, out-of-court disposals, are key to delivering your policy objectives. You'll remember how concerned this committee was when we learned that your advisory group—the strategic implementation group, is it—was only in the early stages of discussing what these guidelines might look like. So, you're actually asking us to pass law when we have no control over how parents might be punished for smacking their children—no control of the regard given to the relevance of force, the frequency of the offence, any prior conviction, any prior reporting, not even the views of the child in how they might be sentenced, or thresholds that would be appropriate for cautions and other out-of-court disposals; no guidance to the police on thresholds for arrest, let alone charging. And you argue that the rights of the child are what matter, and I agree with you here, but everybody, adult or child, has a right to natural justice and proportionate remedy or censure, and you are in no position to offer us any comfort on these matters at this stage. Now, CLAC recommended that any revised guidance be made available to AMs before Stage 3. I anticipate that that's unlikely, and I hope I'm wrong, but that's why Janet and I have tabled amendments 10 and 15, which prevent you bringing section 1 into force until that CPS guidance has been fully updated to take into account the change in the law and until pathways away from prosecution have been devised and agreed. That reflects our recommendation 4, this committee's recommendation, as well as CLAC's recommendation 1. It gives your strategic implementation board time to consider how it can get around the other fundamentally worrying issue of the effect of recording reports of apparent physical punishment, even if those reports ultimately prove unfounded. And you have not addressed these in your own amendments. I have to say, Minister, I think these points are so serious that I would have liked to have tabled amendments preventing you seeking Royal Assent for this Bill until the Assembly has seen drafts of the range of official guidance needed for the police and CPS. I'd have sought a Report Stage, if I could, so that we could consider that evidence. But I'm therefore asking you to support the amendments we have tabled, 10 and 15, so that we can bring some damage limitation to a process that you ultimately cannot control once this Bill has passed. Now, I know you've got the numbers to pass this Bill, whether you accept amendments or not, but I just hope you can see the danger in pushing forward with a Bill that changes a person's relationship with the criminal law when you have no legal control over the consequences of that, and you're inviting this Assembly to fall into the same trap. I therefore urge the Assembly to avoid this recklessness by supporting these two amendments.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Suzy. Are there other Members who wish to speak? No. Janet, do you want to speak?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, I wish to speak to amendments 14 and 16. Amendment 14, however, is consequential to amendment 16 passing. Amendment 16 prevents this from commencing until parenting support services have been established by the Welsh Government. As was clear during the committee's evidence sessions, present Welsh Government support programmes for parents have insufficient coverage. For example, the capacity and reach of the Healthy Child Wales programme came under question on its role in awareness raising, with health representatives acknowledging that universality had not been achieved, with 53.2 per cent of children in Wales reported as being contacted. Furthermore, existing parenting support is often only available as part of a targeted programme in specific areas, such as Flying Start, and even the children's commissioner noted that much more is needed to support parents to find alternatives to disciplining their children. Now, the Deputy Minister mentioned the 'Parenting: Give it Time' campaign as part of proposals on a wider package of support for children and their parents. However, the Deputy Minister was challenged on this fact, that this is an online campaign only, and could only respond that the mapping exercise she will undertake. Consequently, it should be remembered that this Bill will affect all parents. Therefore, the Deputy Minister needs to assure the committee and the public that universal support will be provided before the removal of the defence occurs.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Janet. Deputy Minister.
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you, Chair. I've listened to what stakeholders and committees have said about the importance of ensuring sufficient time is available prior to the change in the law to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment during Stage 1. As a result, I have brought forward amendments in this group to provide certainty around the date for the change in the law. My amendment 7 will remove the power to commence this core provision of the Bill by Order of the Welsh Ministers and ensure that the defence of reasonable punishment is abolished at the end of a two-year period beginning the day after Royal Assent. That was done to give certainty on the length of time. Up to then, we'd always said 'up to two years'—well, we're giving two years. This certainty will allow key partners, including the police, social services and the Crown Prosecution Service, to plan for changes to guidance, training and data-collection systems more effectively. It'll also provide a focus for our awareness-raising campaign. My amendment 8 in this group has the consequence of removing the power to make transitional provision, which is replaced by my amendments 3 and 6, and we discussed those in the previous group. I've listened to the arguments put forward by Suzy Davies and Janet Finch-Saunders for the amendments in this group that they have tabled. These amendments are all about making the commencement of the Bill conditional on something else happening, whether it's waiting for the revision of Crown Prosecution Service guidance, or the establishment of a pathway for diversion from the criminal justice system, or for the provision of parenting support services. And, really, I don't think that we should be going down that road. As I set out in my letter of response to the Stage 1 report from the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, we've got good working relations with the CPS through the strategic implementation group, and we work very closely with them. But the CPS are an independent body, as Suzy Davies has said in her contribution, not answerable to Welsh Ministers or this legislature, and it's not appropriate for a Minister or the National Assembly to seek to influence the CPS guidelines. We're discussing the issues with the CPS in the implementation group. And, in fact, I think that these amendments—Suzy's amendments in particular—wouldn't just seek to influence the CPS, but would actually give power to a non-devolved body on the way that we legislate in Wales. So, I don't think we should make it conditional on those guidelines being decided. I think you have to rely on the fact that we have got this very good relationship, very close working relationship. And I know they did give evidence to your committee, I believe, the CPS. And I think legislating to effectively give a non-devolved body a power to commence, or not, Assembly legislation would be highly unusual and would raise great uncertainty, I think, if we did go down that track, because I think this is very important Welsh legislation, which does have broad support across the Assembly. And I don't think we should allow non-devolved bodies to be the final arbiters of commencement of our legislation. So, I don't support those amendments. I think the CPS is entirely independent of Government, and must be entirely independent of Government, and will make its own decisions about how and when it will revise its guidance. In addition, you suggest we allow the UK Government to have a say in when Welsh legislation is commenced in an area that was specifically devolved to the Assembly. The test applied by the proposed amendments as to when commencement could lawfully occur is uncertain. If these amendments passed, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to judge when section 1 could be commenced. This contravenes what stakeholders and committees have asked for, and raises huge uncertainty, which potentially jeopardises the Bill. And I want to assure you again, not only do we have good working relations with the CPS, but also very good working relationships with the police, who are, of course, the other non-devolved body who have great involvement and interest in these issues. The work we do in these groups should not affect the timing of the Bill's commencement. In fact, it's the other way round. My amendment to provide a two-year period between Royal Assent and commencement means these groups can plan their work to a known timescale and deliver in good time before the law comes into force. And then, when it comes to parenting support, the committee knows that I've committed to reviewing the existing provision of parenting support, and work is already under way through the parenting expert group on this very issue. I have already said I will expand the age range of the 'Parenting: Give it Time' campaign, and I think—. I know Janet Finch-Saunders has made the point that it is an online facility. It is very widely used. It is a very successful tool. But, of course, the universal services are also there. For example, the universal service of the health visitors is absolutely crucial, and that is a service that is for every child. And, of course, the health visitors welcome this legislation very strongly. And the expert group is considering what it'll recommend for the future, and it needs the time to be able to do that, to support the Bill as well as to support parenting more widely. So, as I said, I think these are important points that you have raised, but I don't think they are appropriate. So, I therefore urge the committee not to support amendments 9 and 10, nor 13, 14 and 15.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Suzy to reply to the debate.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you very much, and thank you very much, Deputy Minister, as well. I'm disappointed that you haven't seen what's behind Janet Finch-Saunders's final amendment there, actually. Maybe it's something we'll raise again with you at Stage 3, or maybe in the conversations that we have between now and then. But I want to go back to amendments 10 and 15 that I've raised and your assertion that we're giving, or attempting to give, power to the CPS here. We are not. This amendment is drafted very specifically and in full knowledge that we have no legislative competence in this area. And this is why I go back to where my contribution to this started, and it's your choice to try and resolve the problem of—or, sorry, to try and protect children's rights through the medium of a change to the criminal law rather than the many opportunities that were available to you through the civil law and over which you would have had complete competence. This Bill—and, actually, you've said a couple of times in your response today that it's important that it's commenced on a certain date. My argument is: it shouldn't be commenced at all unless you are absolutely certain about how it is likely to affect the parents who will now be captured by the removal of the defence. And, while I claim no mischief on the part of the CPS or the police—obviously I don't—there is nothing you can do that would prevent the CPS, should they wish to do it, or indeed the police with their own guidelines, putting in place something that is wholly disproportionate to the offence that is now being released by the removal of a defence. And, because of that, I ask you to consider, or balance, actually, two important things here: one is the rights of the child, obviously at the forefront of your argument on this, which I would argue could be completely and safely protected through the use of civil law on this occasion; and, actually, the rights of the child again to have a good relationship with parents over whose future they will have no say—or at least you cannot allow them to have any say in how those parents might be treated in terms of sentencing. The relationship between parents and children obviously is different in every family, but that's something you ought to protect in what you're trying to do here, and by leaving it open, as you say, to completely different—sorry, undevolved, two undevolved authorities to make decisions about how that relationship could be affected deeply worries me. I know this isn't going to stop your Bill going forward, but I really want you to consider my arguments and how you might try and address them at Stage 3, because leaving, effectively, the delivery of your policy objectives to somebody over whom you have no control, despite your great relationship with them, should worry us all as a legislature. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Suzy. Do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 9?
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, because of the voting order—. Yes, please.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 9 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. All those in favour of amendment 9, please show. All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against. Amendment 9 is not agreed. Janet, do you wish to move amendment 13?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I move.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 13 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. All those in favour of amendment 13, please show. All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against. Amendment 13 is not agreed. Janet, do you wish to move amendment 14?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I move.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 14 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. All those in favour of amendment 14, please show. All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against. Amendment 14 is not agreed. Deputy Minister, do you wish to move to a vote on amendment 7?
Julie Morgan AM: I do.
Lynne Neagle AM: I move amendment 7 in the name of the Deputy Minister. The question is that amendment 7 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. All those in favour of amendment 7, please show. All those against. So, there voted four in favour, two against. Amendment 7 is agreed. Suzy, do you wish to move amendment 10?
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, please.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 10 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. All those in favour of amendment 10, please show. All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against. Amendment 10 is not agreed. Janet, do you wish to move amendment 15?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I do.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 15 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll take a vote. All those in favour of amendment 15, please show. All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against. Amendment 15 is not agreed. Janet, do you wish to move amendment 16?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I move.
Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 16 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I'll take a vote. All those in favour of amendment 16, please show. All those against. So, there voted two in favour, four against. Amendment 16 is not agreed. Deputy Minister, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 8?
Julie Morgan AM: I do.
Lynne Neagle AM: I move amendment 8, then, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 8 be agreed. Does any Member object? Amendment 8 is therefore agreed. Well, that has brought us to the end of our amendments, so can I thank the Deputy Minister and her officials for their attendance? As usual, you will be sent a transcript of the meeting to check for factual accuracy. This completes Stage 2 proceedings. Stage 3 begins tomorrow, and the relevant date of Stage 3 proceedings will be published in due course. Standing Orders make provision for the Deputy Minister to prepare a revised explanatory memorandum, taking account of the amendments agreed today. The revised memorandum will be laid at least five working days before Stage 3 proceedings. Thank you very much.
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you all very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, following our meeting on 2 October. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Health and Social Services updating the committee on the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy. And paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services regarding early childhood education and care, following the session that we held on 2 October. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then, is for me to propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you.
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doc_15
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Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . Oh I totally {disfmarker} Yeah 'cause I moved it . {vocalsound} 'S put it over here . Then we don't have to worry about it .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Ready for this ?
Project Manager: All set ? Cool . Alright , it is PowerPoint time . I've done more PowerPoints in this particular experiment than I've ever done in my life before this experiment {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: which is kind of fun .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh man . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So uh here we have our detailed design meeting where we will um look at the prototype and um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} right so um , I finally figured out what this whole second bullet point is about in my {disfmarker} that my coach was sending to me . It means I'm supposed to read the minutes from the previous meeting .
Industrial Designer: Oh really ?
Project Manager: I think . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Huh .
Project Manager: I don't know . Otherwise it's just saying I'm the secretary
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and I'm {disfmarker} therefore I'm taking the minutes , s so just to go um {vocalsound} just real briefly to go over minutes from last meeting , uh , I will open them slowly , no ? Wait for it , wait for it . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah that's not you . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No . That's how the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wait .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is , this is very high-powered stuff here , double-clicking , there we go . So um basically the moral of the story from our last minute uh {disfmarker} last meeting was that {vocalsound} um we that we had meetings from {disfmarker} uh we had presentations done by the Industrial Designer , uh or from Nathan , and Ron and from Sarah about what we can do here um and what sort of limitations we're operating with um {disfmarker} uh excuse me what limitations we're operating under , what kind of risk we'd be looking at with some of the various approaches we were discussing and we essentially came to the conclusion that we should develop a remote with uh voice recognition , I_E_ that had a vaguely non-remote like shape um because you didn't really need to use it as a remote since you could just use your voice . That would include some {disfmarker} mostly just the simple design features for a television operation but with a slide or a fold-out bay for more advanced functions for users . Um , and uh the uh uh the U_I_D_ and the I_D_ were asked to go ahead and start developing a prototype for us to look at . {vocalsound} So . That's sorted , back to the main {vocalsound} meet here , um , go ahead and take it away guys .
Industrial Designer: Well . Uh , we have assembled our prototype , um . What's to be said about it ? Um , we took into account a lot of the things that we went over in the last meeting , um . Some of the most important things to consider are that we decided not to go for the touch screen which you can see
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and opted for some very large buttons for the primary functions , um . This is going to be the on off button
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and we have these buttons to go through the channels um and then two volume buttons down here , d uh we decided those were the most important uh buttons . And then , for the more advanced uh functions there is a slide out panel here um and you can see that there are lots of other things going on . But this actually can slide back in and provides a very nice aesthetic when it's all put away , um . As far as the uh whole visible light thing , we decided to go with the multiple colours coming out ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Nice . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: why not ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Fair enough .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Of course , if that's annoying for some people that function can be turned off . Um .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Perfect .
Industrial Designer: Go ahead .
User Interface: No it's important to {vocalsound} we talked a quite a bit about uh you know the the interchangeable uh faces and what we've done here is come up with a bit of a natural look here
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: um f we call it fruity
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: if you will . Um . Right , um ,
Marketing: Appropriate , okay .
User Interface: of course that's uh interchangeable
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and uh I think it would be desirable for the uh for the regular product in the in the in the in the first packaging to be something a little bit more subdued
Marketing: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: but this is kind of something that can be done
Marketing: It is an option .
User Interface: um and as you can see on the television there uh we have the uh voice detector device um on the top there .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh , right .
Industrial Designer: That's this here .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ah . I see .
User Interface: Um . So that that will work quite well with with regard to finding this uh contraption . Um , what other things do we see here , well , um if you give it a touch it does have actually a bit of a spongy feel ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: um , so I think that will work well with regards to our market . Um and uh let's see , well clearly there's gonna be some more colours and what not available . {vocalsound} Um uh do you have anything else to add to that ?
Industrial Designer: Um I worried about the materials , it is uh {disfmarker} the entire thing is covered in a rubber coating so it's very durable uh , it's not gonna break like some types of plastic that's dropped . Um , and of course as you can see and if you touch it it does have that nice squishy feel .
User Interface: It's actually important to note that the television , uh you know if there's an earthquake or anything like that , that i it actually is edible inside .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Fact , I dunno if you noticed , but I wrote the uh the company's name on the telephone screen ,
Project Manager: Oh well done yeah , yeah oh ok
Industrial Designer: I thought that was kinda nice .
Marketing: Nice .
Industrial Designer: This was actually an apple on the inside .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: This {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Do we need to worry about um rot factors ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um {vocalsound} it's encased in a new uh type of uh
Marketing: Oh okay , there's preservatives involved ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: polymer yeah .
Marketing: we don't need to worry ,
Industrial Designer: We got a bit ahead of ourselves ,
User Interface: It's fine .
Marketing: okay .
Industrial Designer: I know we're not talking about making televisions at this point or anything like that , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: Fair enough .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Edible televisions , it's a wave of the future . {vocalsound}
Marketing: No but {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's pos a possible new product .
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's a couple years off at least . Okay .
User Interface: Um , but I think that's {disfmarker} I think that sums up the main features of our {disfmarker} of the remote ,
Project Manager: Brilliant .
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: um I dunno if you guys have any questions or f whether that uh {disfmarker} whether we need to worry about any uh other marketing areas or anything of that nature . Um , did we come in under budget ?
Industrial Designer: Uh we did , yeah . This cost {disfmarker} well to put this into um production , we're looking at about {disfmarker} what was our goal ? It was twelve fifty Euro um and this actually came in at about eleven ninety nine .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um , so I was quite pleased with that .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: One thing that we didn't do um {disfmarker} obviously we had a choice with the buttons whether to use scroll buttons or standard rubber buttons , but we just went for a classic rubber button and um since we did that
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: we didn't have to use as many microchips which was quite nice and that's what helped keep the cost down .
Project Manager: Brilliant .
Industrial Designer: So even though it has a lot of modern technology , um for example the voice recognition ,
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: in a lot of ways it's just a simple remote and um I think if we shopped around for other manufacturers um we might be able to get even cheaper .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound} Did we talk about the voice recognition uh option ?
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker} Oh no , we haven't talked about that yet have we ?
User Interface: So uh so uh yeah on the back here you all noticed this area here which is actually the voice recognition uh uh console
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: and uh I think it's nicely designed into the into the overall look .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Um , but basically the voice recognition uh incorporates um the latest designs that our research team has been able to cufw uh come up with . Basically uh quite similar to the coffee maker um design that we were talking about earlier
Marketing: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: and um , I think that uh has given a proven um {vocalsound} ease of use and what not .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Yeah .
User Interface: And uh allows features like the remote actually talking back to the user um , so .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Cool .
Industrial Designer: Any questions ?
Project Manager: No , no
Marketing: {vocalsound} Do we have um other , for lack of a better word , skins ? Covers ?
Project Manager: I think that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: In play now or are those ones gonna be developed later once we see how the couple we have g go or ?
Industrial Designer: Um , do you wanna answer this one
Marketing: Do we know where we stand on that yet ?
Industrial Designer: or do you want me to answer it ?
User Interface: Well we didn't quite have enough material uh {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Oh I wasn't expecting a prototype
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Oh I see ,
Marketing: I just didn't know {disfmarker} if you guys had any in mind yet . {vocalsound}
User Interface: right , um .
Industrial Designer: Um , well {vocalsound} as you can see this is just a most superficial layer and um it'd be very easy to put another layer of something else like {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . Just veneer really ,
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: yeah . Okay .
User Interface: Actually this bottom red ring here just unclips
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and then you put a a new a new uh a new plate on top of that .
Marketing: And the whole thing {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay
User Interface: So I mean there are {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right
User Interface: we definitely priced out a spongy {disfmarker} even spongier non-natural look um materials
Marketing: Yeah . There's {disfmarker} Okay .
User Interface: which I think worked out fine . We also continued on with the ideas that f following uh Apple's colour schemes with the kind of the uh light orange and the green .
Marketing: Mm 'kay . Okay , very cool .
Industrial Designer: It's not it's not quite a a face plate , it's more like a pseudo-face plate because it's simple enough
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: that in the factory it could {disfmarker} we could very easily put a different one on it , it locks into place such that , you know , it's pretty permanent but at the same time , if we wanna go the other way it's just a matter of a couple of adjustments and we could go the face plate way
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: if you know what I mean .
Marketing: Yep . It's still an option if we need it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Very cool , nice job .
Project Manager: Right , yeah thanks guys that's very , very good work . I like it , brilliant . {vocalsound} Um , {vocalsound} what we need to discuss now is the finance of it , um I got me {disfmarker} you've got {disfmarker} you provided a number that actually sounds quite nice . Um the trouble is I was just given this by finance . Um , it's a spreadsheet of the parts {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Project Manager: and I've just tentatively put in what it's going to look like um .
Industrial Designer: Ooh .
Project Manager: I'm just gonna clear this out real quickly , but it looks like {disfmarker} So we'll just {disfmarker} if we can just itemize what's in here , we've got this {disfmarker} it's a solar cell thing right ?
Industrial Designer: Right
Project Manager: With a back-up battery ?
Industrial Designer: uh we didn't really touch on that but it it's in there ,
Project Manager: With the ba okay . Um
Industrial Designer: yep .
Project Manager: and {disfmarker}
User Interface: The voice recognition area actually doubles as uh as the solar cell area . Yeah .
Project Manager: Clever , clever , well done . Um so I guess that would mean we've got a bit of a um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's a s a speaker and a sensor at the same time isn't it ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah . It's just making use of the same space and the same materials ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay . Um and the case , it's more of a single-curved case , I guess would be that {disfmarker} be the general {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , one big curve I guess you could say .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um and we've got a rubber skin material basically throughout . Um . Push button interface um with this other drop-down so maybe we've got two push button interfaces don't we ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um . And um a special {disfmarker} I guess it's uh {disfmarker} we've got a sort of a wood materi a rubbery type material that {disfmarker} throughout ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , special .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: And s I guess you have to mark special colour and special form as well , don't you ? 'Cause it i it is very unconventional ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , it's it's quite unique .
Industrial Designer: I like to think of it as unconventional .
Project Manager: I like it , yeah it's {disfmarker} So it looks like
Marketing: M come in at sixteen ?
Project Manager: a bit over budget , um .
Industrial Designer: Oh . Huh , doesn't match up does it ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So what we could do perhaps , a simple fix would maybe to switch away from the solar cells {vocalsound} um or take out the back-up battery . Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: How do you feel about that ?
User Interface: I mean I think that uh if we're talking about it being one of our main selling features , being environmental and without the batteries and what not , although it does still have a battery so I'm not sure that {disfmarker} you know what the sell is on that .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I mean we could take we could take the battery out of it you see and it'd probably work ninety nine per cent of the time but you're gonna have to set up a call centre for that one per cent of the time when people are calling and saying oh look my remote isn't working
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: what am I gonna do ?
Marketing: Mm k .
Industrial Designer: People'd be real upset . I think in the long-run it's better to keep the battery ,
Marketing: True .
Industrial Designer: it's hard to scrap the whole cell battery idea 'cause that's so integral to the theme that we have .
Project Manager: Hmm . {vocalsound} What's difficult , we have all these things integral to the um to the design of it that we just can't back out of now ,
Marketing: Nah .
Project Manager: it would have to be {disfmarker} seems like we'd have to go back to square one in a way . Um if we were gonna try to undo one bit we'd probably have to undo most of it , um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Although we don't wanna get rid of the whole environmental {disfmarker} I mean obviously the solar cell is a big piece of the way we're marketing this as like a natural , new thing , but honestly if we cut that one piece out we're actually coming in under budget if I've done my math correctly .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: I mean you might be able to sway me on the idea that {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} our main selling point could be already this voice recognition thing
Marketing: I mean {disfmarker}
User Interface: I mean that's what sets us apart
Marketing: Which , it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: right ?
Marketing: yeah that's what setting us into this young market , I mean that's where we started from , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I don't know , and I mean you know perhaps when the cell technology comes down in price we can bring that back into the game but it looks like at this point that may be out of our league .
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: And the reality is you know , for me from an ideological stand point , I'd like to stick with the uh the solar cell , but I h kind of have to throw myself in the in the business structure model here
Marketing: Right . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: and uh you know I think I think that I think that we need to come to a compromise here
Project Manager: It's either or .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: and maybe move ahead with the project , without the solar cell .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I guess we might have to do that .
Marketing: I think unfortunately that's our best option .
Industrial Designer: It's the only way we're gonna get below our uh goal isn't it ? Of twelve fifty .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: 'Cause we can't remove the push buttons 'cause they're {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , {vocalsound} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} It {disfmarker} kind of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: um and we can't get rid of the uh {disfmarker} I mean removing the {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Savings .
Marketing: yeah .
Project Manager: changing the case wouldn't be so much of a {vocalsound} mm-mm , um , nor would changing the case materials .
Marketing: Mm-mm .
Project Manager: Um . So yeah that looks like to be the only thing . So that would be the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: it's a major change but {disfmarker} Yeah . Alright , so
Industrial Designer: Gotta do what you gotta do .
Project Manager: we're in agreement on that .
Marketing: Unfortunately I think we are .
User Interface: No , I think that was a good compromise you brought forward Sarah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Right . Moving along swiftly . Um , so I guess now we just go to the project evaluation which I will allow Sarah to take over .
Marketing: That would be me . Um cord ?
Project Manager: Ah of course , sorry .
Marketing: No problem .
Project Manager: Whoosh .
Marketing: Can you reach ,
User Interface: Yep .
Marketing: that would be great , thank you .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That'd be great {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I didn't even do that one on purpose either ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: damn . Okay , um , basically I was just evaluating um {vocalsound} from what we know of how our product's working right now with the criteria that we set at the beginning of {disfmarker} these are the things we needed to do , these are the things that look like we feel they're important . Um so I was looking at basic design things , does it fulfil its functions as a remote ? Is the design what we wanted it to do ? I are technologies up to where we hoped they would be and does it fulfil the aesthetic qualities that our original market research was looking for ? Um . Basic questions like , you know , does it turn on ? Does it respond to voice recognition ? And overall , in general , it looks like it's coming up to par .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Um , the only thing is with with the pull-out panel , that is , can it take some adjusting because it's a new sort of interface , um that looked like it was coming up rough , but then , once you get used to it , it does make a lot of sense .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Really good .
Marketing: So I think overall we're headed in the right direction . {vocalsound} So .
User Interface: They like that spongy feel .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . It looks like it's going over well , so
User Interface: And the paging function works well ,
Industrial Designer: Six ?
User Interface: that's good to hear ,
Marketing: we're we're good yeah .
User Interface: we worked hard on that one .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Brilliant .
Industrial Designer: We did .
Marketing: Yeah . It's {disfmarker} I think eventually if we do um branch out with this product maybe we do have a higher budget options and if it goes over with this model we can look into um wider range voice recognition like from other rooms of the house and stuff , but for now , what we've got is working in the range we need it for , so it's all good .
Industrial Designer: I am bit disappointed about losing the solar panel
Marketing: That's everything from me .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: but it's okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah , it is a set-back , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay , do you need the cord back ?
Project Manager: Um yeah ,
User Interface: W we might have uh we might have lost that granola market again
Project Manager: I was just {disfmarker} go on .
Industrial Designer: I know .
User Interface: that we're {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well they don't own tellys anyway do they ?
Industrial Designer: True .
User Interface: I guess that's true .
Project Manager: Right . So , um , {vocalsound} this one's a bit unclear to me to be perfectly fair , um . I got this slide from the coach and I'm not sure what it's connected to . Um so I guess we are going to discuss um {vocalsound} our project process um
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and that is gonna go into my report . So I guess this is the point where we go um {vocalsound} uh out of role it looks like and talk about our satisfaction for room for creativity and so forth and how that all worked , I guess , um .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: As in within the team or ?
Project Manager: I think so yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right so it's just kind of a open mic kind of thing or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: I think it's {disfmarker} I mm-hmm , I think so . I think {vocalsound} hope I'm not screwing up an experiment {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: It is now ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: you're in charge there you go {vocalsound} . so {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But I trust that she would jump in if I was so okay fair enough .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Whatever {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Um right , um so any thoughts ?
Industrial Designer: Are we considering these points here ?
Marketing: Um .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: I think they're starting blocks yeah .
Project Manager: What do you guys feel about the process ?
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Um , you know I think in general , for a day's worth of work we actually were {vocalsound} relatively productive ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Marketing: considering the little amount of input we had going in . Um , and the technology has definitely been a help , it's really been interesting to try out all this new stuff .
User Interface: We didn't use the whiteboard at all .
Project Manager: No , no whiteboard . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No .
Marketing: {vocalsound} No , we didn't . We could now if that'd make up for it
User Interface: {vocalsound} And {disfmarker}
Marketing: but really {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and I feel like if you guys had been designing in here perhaps that would have changed but because of room constraints , doesn't really matter .
User Interface: Um , also had I not been intrigued about the pen , I don't think I woulda used it at all , I didn't write barely anything .
Marketing: Yeah I think I was taking {vocalsound} notes more often than usual
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's true .
Marketing: just 'cause I liked the pen , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Uh .
Project Manager: Was pretty cool tack though .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Definitely .
Marketing: Mm . I am disappointed I didn't get a note back from my personal coach . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: As you write your personal coach .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , but I didn't get a response {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} What if you get a response two or three months from now ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: so {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: we'll see {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That'd be weird .
Marketing: Okay that would be kinda creepy .
Project Manager: Attempts to contact coach ineffective {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: what kind of coaching is that really ? What if I really needed something . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} so n I think there was a lot of room for creativity , I don't we could do whatever {disfmarker} basically what we wanted until the budget came down on us , um .
Marketing: I think so . And even then we did get a decent product turned out although it's not everything we wanted it to be .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: With the natural look .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Very natural look .
Industrial Designer: That's very natural .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Organic , really . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's the brilliance of {disfmarker} they had a p they had a peeler in here .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And highly resourceful team mates might I add
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: which is always a plus .
Project Manager: Yeah , I think , yeah re I thought it was like really creative actually , I mean .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think the teamwork was good as well .
Marketing: Mm yeah , I'm impressed .
Industrial Designer: And to prove that we weren't wasteful we didn't waste a single bit of Play-Doh , we used every bit .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Nice . All four of those little containers . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Including the s the multi-coloured wave pattern .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I guess {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: My one my one criticism is that we didn't have enough colours to work with ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: we only had four , wasn't enough .
Marketing: You could have developed multiple skins really had you had more colours .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I know it could have been amazing .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh well .
Project Manager: What did you guys think about the the the roles ?
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: They were good {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's f kind of fun , it was {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think it was pretty clever 'cause we were never able to get too far off track because the information came in at the right time and kind of filled in the gaps enough .
Marketing: True .
Industrial Designer: At the same time you had enough room to kind of just make things up ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Do your own .
Industrial Designer: which was kind of fun .
Marketing: Though I did feel like th the level of information dropped off severely over the course of the day .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: I mean maybe it's just me but I didn't actually get any information for the last presentation at all .
Project Manager: That's true , I I got this spreadsheet {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Nothing , I didn't even get an email ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: like
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: that was it . So , yeah , I feel like that was slightly lacking but then you know , fill in the blanks on your own , level of creativity upped .
User Interface: Well I think that was I think that was an issue I kept finding with regard to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Whatever .
Project Manager: Of what to do .
User Interface: well no but also {disfmarker} yeah when I was reporting about what each of us was doing I was often confused as to what you were doing {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Uh-huh , that wasn't very much . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You know {disfmarker}
User Interface: um and then I also felt like you know a lot of our discussion would centre around n specifically what my task was
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: because that was kind of the interface portion
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: which was what the whole project was about
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: Mm , mm .
User Interface: uh
Marketing: Hmm , very much so .
User Interface: but {disfmarker} and then in the end I think our jobs kind of melded together a little bit more ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah . That was fun . I think the most helpful thing out of everything was getting the the PowerPoint slides already put together for you
User Interface: which was fine . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: 'cause if we didn't have that there's no way we could have got all that done in time .
Marketing: Yeah , already having the formatted stuff helped a lot . Very much so .
Project Manager: Cool .
User Interface: And I think your leadership was quite good .
Industrial Designer: It was really good yeah .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: She said I I I she actually made a comment off {gap} boy you're getting into this and I really I think it's true I did get {disfmarker} I I felt like I got way too into it .
Marketing: Yeah . That's kind of a good thing though ,
Project Manager: I felt like I slipped into it a lot .
Industrial Designer: It's kinda fun .
Marketing: you know , give the rest of us some structure to work with so hey .
Project Manager: I dunno .
User Interface: An so is that the first time you've taken on that kind of role ?
Project Manager: The first time I've ever done anything like yeah project project management . I usually organise crap ,
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: it's one thing to do , you know {disfmarker} set up a party with your friends ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you know ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Little different .
Project Manager: But you guys felt that you could keep the , yeah , suspension of disbelief kind of like like the role and the {disfmarker} okay ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: I except for a couple moments where it just got out of hand
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and I knew we were all lying through our teeth ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I had to admit , as soon as w we started {disfmarker} I mean as soon as we got the Play-Doh , {vocalsound} th {vocalsound} you know the whole concept of really trying to stick with reality went out the window {vocalsound} .
Marketing: other than that {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I could only imagine . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Maybe in in Legos you know ? Be fun with Legos too ,
User Interface: Possibly .
Project Manager: like make a remote control or spaceship , we used to have spaceship Legos {disfmarker} did you guys ever used to build spaceships with Legos {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh yeah ,
Marketing: Yeah . Totally .
Project Manager: everybody knows {disfmarker} best spaceships ever .
User Interface: still have 'em .
Project Manager: Um you guys felt like there was enough teamwork in all ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah ?
Marketing: I think so .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No I , no I dunno , I d I I dunno ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You don't .
Project Manager: I don't {disfmarker} I I was just {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Marketing: Though we didn't actually {disfmarker} I mean other than minor discussion at meetings there wasn't {disfmarker} except for the actual building ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: It's true huh ?
Marketing: but I feel like if this was a team project there actually would have been much more of the collaborative like brainstorming , use the board {disfmarker} well and this would have been six months' worth of work , not like three hours' worth of meetings .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: I think had the issue been more serious we probably woulda brainstormed more during our meetings as a team . I mean
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: That's true .
Project Manager: Yeah . Course I'm I'm conscious of the idea of the Project Manager asking if you guys feel like there's a team {vocalsound} you know it's like , kind of like , like hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It d
Marketing: Yeah that is kind of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But yeah . Interesting . It's kind of fascinating wasn't it ? I mean the whole process of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Wonder why {disfmarker} is there anything about the way that we got so much inform what was it that kept us from going to the the board ?
Project Manager: I don't know . {vocalsound} I I don't know if there was a ri I th
Marketing: Mine was the mics . I didn't feel like getting up and down and dealing with all these wires ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's it
Marketing: I was afraid I was gonna break something actually .
Industrial Designer: 'cause the mics are loose and each time you get up it's s a possibility of tripping over something or getting tangled or .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Well I dunno what I woulda shown on that board .
Marketing: Yeah . True , but it didn't even occur to me as an option ,
Project Manager: Nor I .
Marketing: I mean I don't know that I would have but I know that I consciously didn't .
User Interface: I mean it's just like the paper I don't know what I really needed the paper for .
Marketing: True .
User Interface: Um , because I've got this laptop . Standard ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: I just used it 'cause it's literally right in front of me .
Project Manager: I wanna see the output files from these um , from the digital paper .
Marketing: Yeah . Well it looks really professional .
Project Manager: I wanna see wh wh what my my handwriting looks like digitized
Marketing: I know .
Project Manager: because my handwriting is crap .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Project Manager: I mean , just to see what it looks like in P_D_F_ format or something .
Industrial Designer: that's it . Usually I would do a lot more doodling too but I didn't because {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I know , I felt like I needed to be professional so I didn't like draw all over my paper and stuff .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay , well not entirely , but still , I doodled less than I usually do .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: T I I'm curious about what the de-briefing is gonna be like . You know , like what is the uh what exactly we're looking for here .
User Interface: So is this all we need to get through ?
Project Manager: I dunno , I'm not sure what the new ideas found i is about .
Marketing: I guess .
Industrial Designer: New ideas .
Marketing: Um .
User Interface: Is it {disfmarker}
Marketing: It {disfmarker} did it just say in an email that we need to discuss that ?
Project Manager: Well , that's the thing I got {disfmarker} i in the email I got this PowerPoint file but this slide was just there ,
Marketing: That slide was like that ?
Project Manager: mm-hmm . I didn't change this one at all .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Well .
Project Manager: Um ch
Industrial Designer: I guess we're on the right track .
Project Manager: Yeah well . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Any new ideas with regard to remote control concepts ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: W {gap} {vocalsound} I kinda like th
Industrial Designer: No , none .
Marketing: Uh I think they still do their job .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah you can't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think they're fine actually .
Marketing: I am thinking outside the little square box though , with literally in like form
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , maybe a s a circle would be alright , different .
Marketing: I don't {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Does kinda make you wonder , I mean , how much can you do with a remote control ? It's like inventing a new car . Yeah yeah , you can {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's still gotta be technically car shaped or it won't fit on the road ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: you know ? {vocalsound} Don't know .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um . 'Kay .
User Interface: What is that ? Our limited ability to think outside the box ?
Project Manager: So this was other costs .
Marketing: Kind of .
Industrial Designer: Are we back into project mood ?
Project Manager: I dunno . I think this is
Marketing: Oh , how long was our meeting supposed to be ?
Project Manager: forty ish
Marketing: How much time do we have left ?
Project Manager: I I I mm we should go on a bit {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} about the project eval , um . I dunno about you guys but I felt like a bit under-stimulated on the whole thing . Like , what like you know what am I really doing ,
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: you know what is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , at the beginning it started out and I felt actually like under pressure like the first couple were taking a lot of work
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: and I was like {disfmarker} had like all this brainstorming I was doing
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and then suddenly I was like well it's just another two minute presentation that you guys don't really care about anyway
User Interface: {vocalsound} Why ?
Project Manager: Hey .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: so type away . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Huh I think it was the real {gap} .
Marketing: You know , you know what I mean
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: like we all sort of knew where we were headed with it so it didn't feel like it mattered anymore .
Industrial Designer: Definitely when {vocalsound} when I first filled out the questionnaire I was marking it probably higher in terms of how much I had to {disfmarker} how much I stressed over it
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and then by the time I got to the last one I was like , you know , not very much .
Marketing: Whatever . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Think it was also realisation of you basically just copy and paste what's given to you into your presentation
Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Very much , yeah .
User Interface: which uh wasn't so clear to me at the beginning .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I actually didn't do that at all though ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: every single one I {disfmarker} a all the presentations I either added slides or edited 'em . I di
User Interface: Oh I added like five slides too ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} See
Project Manager: Oh .
Industrial Designer: Did you really ?
User Interface: but I {disfmarker}
Marketing: I only got blank ones .
Industrial Designer: I just got blank ones
Project Manager: What ? Really ?
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker}
Marketing: My slides were all blank , they'd have a title maybe
User Interface: Yeah , mine too .
Marketing: and they were just empty .
Project Manager: Did they not have {disfmarker} they didn't like {disfmarker} uh mine {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Me too .
Project Manager: yeah they didn't come like this ? Like with {disfmarker} this was what it looks like . This is what that looked like ,
Marketing: Like with those words already on it ?
Project Manager: literally , just like that .
User Interface: No .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Interesting .
Marketing: I wondered why yours always looked so more complicated . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh-huh huh huh .
Industrial Designer: I deleted slides {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think I added a slide one time .
User Interface: I added many slides every time {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Hey
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: with the whole new background being innovative , yeah that was class .
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: That was pretty cool , it was a high moment of the whole experiment .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Interesting . Any other thoughts come to mind ?
Marketing: I wanna know how our product would fare .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I think it would fail , I think
Marketing: I can't just leave it there .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it'd be a huge disaster , especially if it looks like that . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think it would take extensive marketing , okay , an apple with a red button on top , even I am sceptical . {vocalsound} But you know the whole {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Even you {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: I don't {disfmarker} we kind of designed it to look little bit like a face .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I know it is {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: It's a happy face .
User Interface: Actually that looked a lot more like a tongue from previous to uh fr some other design uh modifications {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Builds . Mm .
User Interface: I hope you appreciate the uh incorporation of some tin foil from a uh random Kit-Kat bar
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I I noticed that . {vocalsound} By accident .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: that happened to be consumed . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Interesting . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well huh . An interesting day all in all I would say .
Project Manager: Uh , yeah , I'd say so .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , it's uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: So again I reiterate my question of how different we are comp compared to the other groups , especially between culture groups and what not .
Project Manager: Mm , I know .
Marketing: I know .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: It seemed like everything flowed pretty logically . You know from the the the basics to the conce
Industrial Designer: I wanna see a {disfmarker}
Marketing: I Yeah .
Project Manager: although the whole concepts thing , the whole concepts phase , I don't think I really understood like the concept . Well the id okay the notion of {disfmarker}
Marketing: 'Cause it's such a functional item .
Project Manager: yeah I mean i it's not like I have a concept of a mug's material , it's just it is what it is . You know ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: maybe i rather than concepts i it should be th thought of {disfmarker} we sh I I thought of I thought of {disfmarker} rather than in terms of concepts I thought of it in terms of proposed idea . And then the final would be like th the actual specified prototype or whatever ,
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: I dunno . But . All in all it's kinda interesting .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: So we have more slides or ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No just this closing one . No we've established that the costs weren't really within budget , but we could s you know do it {disfmarker}
Marketing: We got it to be .
Project Manager: We did the project evaluation based on um {vocalsound} Sarah's evaluation of on off switches
Marketing: Like cutting corners . Kind of ,
Project Manager: and {disfmarker}
Marketing: though it was really technically an evaluation of the product , not the project in general .
Project Manager: Mm . True .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Which I'm not sure is the same thing , at the time that just i made more sense , but I could see if they were really asking about us .
Project Manager: Yeah . 'Cause we di we had a thu think about it . Um . Yeah . And it's all recorded , woo-hoo . Yeah what I'm gonna {disfmarker} I'm gonna put um {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Yay .
Project Manager: I'm supposed to do this final report thing at the end so I'll put all that into the final report as well , or as much as seems like {disfmarker} maybe not like the articles and stuff , like because and if and so forth , but I'll put most of it in the reports .
Industrial Designer: I {vocalsound} It'd be so cool if we get a copy of the recording .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Make it sound eloquent . Oh , I have to done {disfmarker} I've {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Nice .
Marketing: I've done transcription before and it's really ridiculous how many words people say like just in the middle of their sentences like that
Project Manager: Oh yeah .
Marketing: that mean nothing .
Project Manager: There's a whole branch of psychology that looks into that , psycholinguistics .
Industrial Designer: Really .
User Interface: What the uhs and the {disfmarker}
Marketing: There's a guy studying it here , yeah , he's studying ums and ahs or something .
Industrial Designer: Filler words or ?
Project Manager: Yep , they're called um disfluencies .
Industrial Designer: Disfluencies .
Marketing: That's a good word for it .
Project Manager: Yeah we like our fancy phrases and terminologies for things .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Just add some prefixes , sounds classier .
Project Manager: Exactly uh I will save this into the project documents .
Industrial Designer: I find myself hitting the send and receive button on the email a lot , just out of boredom ,
Project Manager: Yeah . Oh yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah I know .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: I , yeah ,
Industrial Designer: like c come on gimme something .
Marketing: pretty compulsively during meetings , like , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Come on give me some information .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well to be fair we're we're hooked {disfmarker} we're all hooked on the internet , so I mean I do the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , we are addicts .
User Interface: That's scary
Industrial Designer: It is scary .
User Interface: yeah ?
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Well just around that eight or or nine people that are {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I know , imagine we went the first ten y fifteen years of our lives without the internet . It's only in the last ten that we're like where's the internet ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I mean , you know , it just in the past five we've gone from twenty eight eight modems to broadband all the time .
Marketing: I yeah .
User Interface: Dude , I think we've had internet for like eighteen years .
Marketing: True .
Project Manager: No we have but I {disfmarker} not in the sense that it's so un you know uh ubiquitous
Marketing: I yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: But it's not regular I mean my grandparents had it in the eighties and I got it in ninety four , but still .
Industrial Designer: It's crazy . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh-huh .
User Interface: In the eighties ?
Marketing: My um grammy does computer science back in the States and so they had um an E_D_U_ and gov network .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: There's basically the fundamental structures , but it wasn't uh household to household yet
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: because it hadn't been
User Interface: Yeah , it was to the like seven universities or something .
Marketing: partitioned off and stuff , yeah that was him .
User Interface: You guys ready to celebrate ?
Project Manager: Yeah that's our last step . Celebration .
Marketing: Apparently , does that include like champagne or something exciting ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Should .
Project Manager: 'Kay I guess we can probably call that meeting to an end for the most part .
Marketing: I think so . I think that's a closer .
Project Manager: Cool .
Industrial Designer: Has it been forty minutes or whatever ? {gap} this has been long enough .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Celebrate .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Where do you find that ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} I have no idea .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Is that the only song you have ?
User Interface: There is another one . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Is this one of those media player ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Huh ?
Project Manager: W oh .
Industrial Designer: That's awesome .
User Interface: Yep . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The default track . I thought it was David Burns , look into the eyeball .
Industrial Designer: Maybe I have a different one .
Project Manager: That's one that seems to be shipping with it uh shipped with for a while , maybe this is the new version .
Marketing: So is that a close ?
Project Manager: Yeah , I guess we'll call that a a doner .
Marketing: Okay , that's the end of the meeting .
Project Manager: Fab .
Marketing: Thank you gentlemen . I feel like I'm signing off .
| |
doc_16
|
Grad A: OK , we 're recording .
Professor F: We can say the word " zero " all we want ,
PhD G: I 'm doing some
Professor F: but just {disfmarker}
PhD G: square brackets , coffee sipping , square brackets .
PhD B: That 's not allowed , I think .
Postdoc C: Cur - curly brackets .
Grad E: Is that voiced or unvoiced ?
Grad A: Curly brackets .
PhD B: Curly brackets .
Professor F: Curly brackets .
Grad A: Right .
PhD B: Oops .
Professor F: Well , correction for transcribers .
PhD G: Mmm ! {comment} {vocalsound} Gar - darn !
Professor F: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Channel two .
Grad A: Do we use square brackets for anything ?
Postdoc C: Yeah . Uh {disfmarker}
Grad E: These poor transcribers .
Professor F: u
Postdoc C: Not ri not right now . I mean {disfmarker} No .
PhD D: There 's gonna be some zeros from this morning 's meeting because I noticed that
Professor F: u
PhD D: Barry , I think maybe you turned your mike off before the digits were {disfmarker} Oh , was it during digits ? Oh , so it doesn't matter .
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad A: It 's still not a good idea .
PhD B: So it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not that bad if it 's at the end , but it 's {disfmarker} in the beginning , it 's {pause} bad .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad A: Yeah , you wanna {disfmarker} you wanna keep them on so you get {pause} good noise {disfmarker} noise floors , through the whole meeting .
Postdoc C: That 's interesting . Hmm .
Professor F: Uh , I probably just should have left it on . Yeah I did have to run , but {disfmarker}
Grad E: Is there any way to change that in the software ?
Grad A: Change what in the software ?
Grad E: Where like you just don't {disfmarker} like if you {disfmarker} if it starts catching zeros , like in the driver or something {disfmarker} in the card , or somewhere in the hardware {disfmarker} Where if you start seeing zeros on w across one channel , you just add some {vocalsound} random , @ @ {comment} noise floor {disfmarker} like a small noise floor .
Grad A: I mean certainly we could do that , but I don't think that 's a good idea . We can do that in post - processing if {disfmarker} if the application needs it .
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD B: Manual post - processing .
Professor F: Well , I {disfmarker} u I actually don't know what the default {comment} is anymore as to how we 're using the {disfmarker} the front - end stuff but {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} when we use the ICSI front - end ,
Grad A: As an argument .
Professor F: but um , there is an {disfmarker} there is an o an option in {disfmarker} in RASTA , which , um , {vocalsound} in when I first put it in , uh , back in the days when I actually wrote things , uh , {vocalsound} I {pause} did actually put in a random bit or so that was in it ,
Grad E: OK .
Professor F: but {vocalsound} then I realized that putting in a random bit was equivalent to adding uh {disfmarker} adding flat spectrum ,
Grad E: Right .
Professor F: and it was a lot faster to just add a constant to the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to the spectrum . So then I just started doing that
Grad E: Mmm . OK .
Professor F: instead of calling " rand " {comment} or something ,
Grad E: Right .
Professor F: so . So it d it does that . Gee ! Here we all are !
Grad A: Uh , so the only agenda items were Jane {disfmarker} was Jane wanted to talk about some of the IBM transcription process .
Professor F: There 's an agenda ?
Grad A: I sort of {vocalsound} condensed the three things you said into that . And then just {disfmarker} I only have like , this afternoon and maybe tomorrow morning to get anything done before I go to Japan for ten days . So if there 's anything that n absolutely , desperately needs to be done , you should let me know now .
Professor F: Uh , and you just sent off a Eurospeech paper , so .
PhD G: Right . I hope they accept it .
Professor F: Right .
PhD G: I mean , I {disfmarker} both actu as {disfmarker} as a submission and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , as a paper . Um {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}
Grad A: Well yeah , you sent it in {pause} late .
Professor F: Yeah , I guess you {disfmarker} first you have to do the first one ,
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor F: and then {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD G: We actually exceeded the delayed deadline by o another day , so .
PhD B: Oops .
Professor F: Oh they {disfmarker} they had some extension that they announced or something ?
PhD G: Well yeah . Liz had sent them a note saying " could we please {pause} have another " {comment} {pause} I don't know , " three days " or something , and they said yes .
PhD D: And then she said " Did I say three ?
Grad A: Oh ,
PhD D: I meant four . "
Grad A: that was the other thing uh ,
PhD G: But u
Grad A: uh , Dave Gelbart sent me email , I think he sent it to you too , {comment} that um , there 's a special topic , section in si in Eurospeech on new , corp corpors corpora . And it 's not due until like May fifteenth .
Professor F: Oh this isn't the Aurora one ?
Grad A: No .
Professor F: It 's another one ?
Grad A: It 's a different one .
PhD B: No it 's {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .
Grad E: Huh !
Grad A: And uh ,
Professor F: Oh !
PhD B: I got this mail from {disfmarker}
Grad A: I s forwarded it to Jane as I thought being the most relevant person . Um {disfmarker} So , I thought it was highly relevant {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Yeah I 'm {disfmarker}
Professor F: That 's {disfmarker}
Grad A: have you {disfmarker} did you look at the URL ?
Postdoc C: Yeah . I think so too . Um , I haven't gotten over to there yet ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: but what {disfmarker} our discussion yesterday , I really {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanna submit one .
PhD B: Was this {pause} SmartKom message ? I think {pause} Christoph Draxler sent this ,
Postdoc C: Yeah . And , you offered to {disfmarker} to join me , if you want me to .
Grad A: I 'll help ,
PhD B: yeah .
Grad A: but obviously I can't , really do , most of it ,
Postdoc C: Yeah . Yeah , that 's right .
PhD G: I think several people {disfmarker} sent this ,
Grad A: so .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Uh - huh .
PhD G: yeah .
Grad A: But any {disfmarker} any help you need I can certainly provide .
Professor F: Well ,
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: that 's {disfmarker} that 's a great idea .
PhD G: Well {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there were some interesting results in this paper , though . For instance that Morgan {disfmarker} uh , accounted for fifty - six percent of the Robustness meetings in terms of number of words .
Grad A: Wow .
Postdoc C: In {disfmarker} in terms of what ? In term
PhD G: Number of words .
Postdoc C: One ? Wow ! OK .
Grad A: That 's just cuz he talks really fast .
Postdoc C: Do you mean ,
Professor F: n No .
Grad A: I know
PhD B: Oh . Short words .
Postdoc C: because {disfmarker} is it partly , eh , c correctly identified words ? Or is it {disfmarker} or just overall volume ?
PhD G: No . Well , according to the transcripts .
Grad A: But re well regardless . I think it 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} he 's in all of them ,
Postdoc C: Oh . OK .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: I mean , we didn't mention Morgan by name
Grad A: and he talks a lot .
PhD G: we just {disfmarker}
Grad A: One participant .
Professor F: Well {disfmarker} we have now , but {disfmarker}
PhD G: We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} something about {disfmarker}
Grad A: Did you identify him as a senior {pause} member ?
PhD G: No , we as identify him as the person dominating the conversation .
Professor F: Well .
Grad A: Yeah .
Postdoc C: OK .
Professor F: I mean I get these AARP things , but I 'm not se really senior yet , but {disfmarker}
PhD G: Right
Professor F: Um ,
PhD G: Hmm .
Professor F: but uh , other than that delightful result , what was the rest of the paper about ?
PhD G: Um , well it was about {disfmarker} it had three sections
Professor F: You sent it to me but I haven't seen it yet .
PhD G: uh {disfmarker} three kinds of uh results , if you will . Uh , the one was that the {disfmarker} just the {disfmarker} the amount of overlap
Grad A: The good , the bad , and the ugly .
PhD G: um , s in terms of {disfmarker} in terms of number of words and also we computed something called a " spurt " , which is essentially a stretch of speech with uh , no pauses exceeding five hundred milliseconds . Um , and we computed how many overlapped i uh spurts there were and how many overlapped words there were . {vocalsound} Um , for four different {pause} corpora , the Meeting Recorder meetings , the Robustness meetings Switchboard and CallHome , and , found {disfmarker} and sort of compared the numbers . Um , and found that the , uh , you know , as you might expect the Meeting Recorder {pause} meetings had the most overlap uh , but next were Switchboard and CallHome , which both had roughly the same , almost identical in fact , and the Robustness meetings were {disfmarker} had the least , so {disfmarker} One sort of unexpected result there is that uh two - party telephone conversations have {vocalsound} about the same amount of overlap ,
Grad A: I 'm surprised .
PhD G: sort of in gen you know {disfmarker} order of magnitude - wise as , uh {disfmarker} as face - to - face meetings with multiple {disfmarker}
Grad A: I have {disfmarker} I had better start changing all my slides !
PhD G: Yeah . Also , I {disfmarker} in the Levinson , the pragmatics book , {comment} in you know , uh , textbook , {vocalsound} there 's {disfmarker} I found this great quote where he says {vocalsound} you know {disfmarker} you know , how people {disfmarker} it talks about how uh {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} how people are so good at turn taking ,
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah .
PhD G: and {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} they 're so good that {vocalsound} generally , u the overlapped speech does not {disfmarker} is less than five percent .
Postdoc C: Oh , that 's interesting . Yeah .
PhD G: So , this is way more than five percent .
Grad E: Did he mean face {disfmarker} like face - to - face ? Or {disfmarker} ?
PhD G: Well , in real conversations ,
Grad E: Hmm .
PhD G: everyday conversations .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: It 's s what these conversation analysts have been studying for years and years there .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: But {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Well , of course , no , it doesn't necessarily go against what he said , cuz he said " generally speaking " . In order to {disfmarker} to go against that kind of a claim you 'd have to big canvassing .
Grad A: Hmm .
PhD B: And in f
PhD G: Well , he {disfmarker} he made a claim {disfmarker}
Grad A: Well {disfmarker}
PhD G: Well {disfmarker}
Grad A:
PhD B: But {disfmarker}
Professor F: Yeah , we {disfmarker} we have pretty limited sample here .
PhD B: Five percent of time or five percent of what ?
Grad A: Yeah , I was gonna ask that too .
Postdoc C: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Exactly .
PhD G: Well it 's time .
PhD B: Yeah , so {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: It 's {disfmarker} i it 's not against his conclusion ,
PhD G: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but still {disfmarker} but still {disfmarker} u
Postdoc C: it just says that it 's a bi bell curve , and that , {vocalsound} you have something that has a nice range , in your sampling .
PhD G: Yeah . So there are slight {disfmarker} There are differences in how you measure it , but still it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know , the difference between um {disfmarker} between that number and what we have in meetings , which is more like , {vocalsound} you know , close to {disfmarker} in meetings like these , uh {disfmarker} you know , close to twenty percent .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor F: But what was it like , say , in the Robustness meeting , for instance ?
PhD G: That {disfmarker}
Grad A: But {disfmarker}
PhD G: Robustness meeting ? It was {vocalsound} about half of the r So , {vocalsound} in terms of number of words , it 's like seventeen or eigh eighteen percent for the Meeting Recorder meetings and {vocalsound} about half that for , {vocalsound} uh , the Robustness .
Professor F: Maybe ten percent ?
Grad A: But I don't know if that 's really a fair way of comparing between , multi - party , conversations and two - party conversations . Yeah . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know .
PhD B: Then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then you have to {disfmarker}
Grad A: I mean that 's just something {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah , I just wonder if you have to normalize by the numbers of speakers or something .
Postdoc C: Yeah .
PhD B: Then {disfmarker} Yeah , then normalize by {disfmarker} by something like that ,
Postdoc C: Yeah , that 's a good point .
PhD G: Well , we didn't get to look at that ,
PhD B: yeah .
Postdoc C: Yeah .
PhD G: but this obvious thing to see if {disfmarker} if there 's a dependence on the number of uh {disfmarker} participants .
Postdoc C: Good idea .
Grad A: I mean {disfmarker} I bet there 's a weak dependence . I 'm sure it 's {disfmarker} it 's not a real strong one .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD G: Right .
Grad A: Right ? Because you
PhD D: Cuz not everybody talks .
Grad A: Right .
PhD G: Right .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad A: You have a lot of {disfmarker} a lot of two - party , subsets within the meeting .
PhD G: Right .
Postdoc C: Uh - huh .
Grad A: Well regardless {disfmarker} it 's an interesting result regardless .
PhD G: So {disfmarker} Right .
Postdoc C: Yes , that 's right .
PhD G: And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and we also d computed this both with and without backchannels ,
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: so you might think that backchannels have a special status because they 're essentially just {disfmarker}
Grad A: Uh - huh . So , did {disfmarker} we all said " uh - huh " and nodded at the same time ,
PhD G: R right .
Grad A: so .
PhD G: But , even if you take out all the backchannels {disfmarker} so basically you treat backchannels l as nonspeech , as pauses ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: you still have significant overlap . You know , it goes down from maybe {disfmarker} For Switchboard it goes down from {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker} f um {disfmarker} {comment} I don't know {disfmarker} f fourteen percent of the words to maybe {vocalsound} uh I don't know , eleven percent or something {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not a dramatic change ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: so it 's {disfmarker} Anyway , so it 's uh {disfmarker} That was {disfmarker} that was one set of {pause} results , and then the second one was just basically the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the stuff we had in the {disfmarker} in the HLT paper on how overlaps effect the {pause} recognition performance .
Postdoc C: Hmm .
Grad A: Nope . Right .
Professor F: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: And we rescored things um , a little bit more carefully . We also fixed the transcripts in {disfmarker} in numerous ways . Uh , but mostly we added one {disfmarker} one number , which was what if you {pause} uh , basically score ignoring all {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so the {disfmarker} the conjecture from the HLT results was that {vocalsound} most of the added recognition error is from insertions {vocalsound} due to background speech . So , we scored {vocalsound} all the recognition results , {vocalsound} uh , in such a way that the uh {disfmarker}
Grad A: Oh by the way , who 's on channel four ? You 're getting a lot of breath .
PhD B: Yeah . I j was just wondering .
Grad E: That 's {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad E: That 's me .
PhD G: uh , well Don 's been working hard .
Grad E: That 's right .
PhD G: OK , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} so if you have the foreground speaker speaking here , and then there 's some background speech , may be overlapping it somehow , um , and this is the time bin that we used , then of course you 're gonna get insertion errors here and here .
Grad A: Right .
PhD G: Right ? So we scored everything , and I must say the NIST scoring tools are pretty nice for this , where you just basically ignore everything outside of the , {vocalsound} uh , region that was deemed to be foreground speech . And where that was we had to use the t forced alignment , uh , results from s for {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} That 's somewhat {disfmarker} that 's somewhat subject to error , but still we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh , Don did some ha hand - checking and {disfmarker} and we think that {disfmarker} based on that , we think that the results are you know , valid , although of course , some error is gonna be in there . But basically what we found is after we take out these regions {disfmarker} so we only score the regions that were certified as foreground speech , {comment} {vocalsound} the recognition error went down to almost {vocalsound} uh , the {pause} level of the non - overlapped {pause} speech . So that means that {vocalsound} even if you do have background speech , if you can somehow separate out or find where it is , {vocalsound} uh , the recognizer does a good job ,
Grad A: That 's great .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD G: even though there is this back
Grad A: Yeah , I guess that doesn't surprise me , because , with the close - talking mikes , the {disfmarker} the signal will be so much stronger .
PhD G: Right . Right .
Professor F: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Mm - hmm . Um ,
Grad A: What {disfmarker} what sort of normalization do you do ?
PhD G: so {disfmarker} Uh , well , we just {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} we do {disfmarker} u you know , vit
Grad A: I mean in you recognizer , in the SRI recognizer .
PhD G: Well , we do uh , VTL {disfmarker} {vocalsound} vocal tract length normalization , w and we uh {disfmarker} you know , we {disfmarker} we uh , {vocalsound} make all the features have zero mean and unit variance .
Grad A: Over an entire utterance ?
Professor F: And {disfmarker}
Grad A: Or windowed ?
PhD G: Over {disfmarker} over the entire c over the entire channel .
PhD B: Don't {pause} train {disfmarker}
PhD G: Over the {disfmarker}
Grad A: Hmm .
PhD G: but you know . Um , now we didn't re - align the recognizer for this . We just took the old {disfmarker} So this is actually a sub - optimal way of doing it ,
Grad A: Right .
Professor F: Right .
PhD G: right ? So we took the old recognition output and we just scored it differently . So the recognizer didn't have the benefit of knowing where the foreground speech {disfmarker} a start
Professor F: Were you including the {disfmarker} the lapel {pause} in this ?
PhD G: Yes .
Professor F: And did the {disfmarker} did {disfmarker} did the la did the {disfmarker} the problems with the lapel go away also ? Or {disfmarker}
PhD G: Um , it {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor F: fray for {disfmarker} for insertions ?
PhD G: It u not per {disfmarker} I mean , not completely , but yes ,
Professor F: Less so .
PhD G: dramatically . So we have to um {disfmarker}
Professor F: I mean , you still {disfmarker}
PhD G: Well I should bring the {disfmarker} should bring the table with results . Maybe we can look at it {pause} Monday .
Professor F: I would presume that you still would have somewhat higher error with the lapel for insertions than {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yes . It 's {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker}
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: Yes . Yeah .
Professor F: Cuz again , looking forward to the non - close miked case , I think that we s still {disfmarker}
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: I 'm not looking forward to it .
Professor F: i it 's the high signal - to - noise ratio
PhD G: Right .
Professor F: here that {disfmarker} that helps you .
PhD G: u s Right . So {disfmarker} so that was number {disfmarker} that was the second set of {disfmarker} uh , the second section . And then , {vocalsound} the third thing was , we looked at , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh , what we call " interrupts " , although that 's {disfmarker} that may be {vocalsound} a misnomer , but basically {vocalsound} we looked at cases where {disfmarker} Uh , so we {disfmarker} we used the punctuation from the original transcripts and we inferred the beginnings and ends of sentences . So , you know {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Di - did you use upper - lower case also , or not ?
PhD G: Um {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: U upper lower case or no ?
PhD G: Hmm ?
Postdoc C: OK .
PhD G: No , we only used , you know , uh periods , uh , question marks and {pause} exclamation . And we know that there 's th that 's not a very g I mean , we miss a lot of them ,
Postdoc C: Yeah . That 's OK but {disfmarker}
PhD G: but {disfmarker} but it 's f i i
Postdoc C: Comma also or not ?
PhD G: No commas . No . And then {vocalsound} we looked at locations where , uh , if you have overlapping speech and someone else starts a sentence , you know , where do these {disfmarker} where do other people start their {vocalsound} turns {disfmarker} not turns really , but you know , sentences ,
PhD B: Ah .
PhD G: um {disfmarker} So we only looked at cases where there was a foreground speaker and then at the to at the {disfmarker} so the {disfmarker} the foreground speaker started into their sentence and then someone else started later .
PhD B: Somewhere in between the start and the end ?
PhD G: OK ? And so what {disfmarker}
PhD B: OK .
PhD G: Sorry ?
PhD B: Somewhere in between the start and the end of the foreground ?
PhD G: Yes . Uh , so that such that there was overlap between the two sentences .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD G: So , the {disfmarker} the question was how can we {disfmarker} what can we say about the places where the second or {disfmarker} or actually , several second speakers , {vocalsound} um {pause} start their {pause} " interrupts " , as we call them .
PhD D: Three words from the end .
Grad A: At pause boundaries .
PhD G: w And we looked at this in terms of um {disfmarker}
Grad A: On T - closures , only .
PhD G: So {disfmarker} so we had {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we had um u to {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for the purposes of this analysis , we tagged the word sequences , and {disfmarker} and we time - aligned them . Um , and we considered it interrupt {disfmarker} if it occurred in the middle of a word , we basically {disfmarker} you know , considered that to be a interrupt as if it were at {disfmarker} at the beginning of the word . So that , {vocalsound} if any part of the word was overlapped , it was considered an interrupted {pause} word .
Professor F: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: And then we looked at the {disfmarker} the locatio the , {vocalsound} um , you know , the features that {disfmarker} the tags because we had tagged these word strings , {comment} {vocalsound} um , that {disfmarker} that occurred right before these {disfmarker} these uh , interrupt locations .
PhD B: Tag by uh
PhD G: And the tags we looked at are {vocalsound} the spurt tag , which basically says {disfmarker} or actually {disfmarker} Sorry . End of spurt . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} whether there was a pause essentially here , because spurts are a {disfmarker} defined as being you know , five hundred milliseconds or longer pauses , and then we had things like discourse markers , uh , backchannels , uh , disfluencies . um , uh , filled pauses {disfmarker} So disfluen the D 's are for , {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} the interruption points of a disfluency , so , where you hesitate , or where you start the repair there . Uh , what else do we had . Uh , repeated {disfmarker} you know , repeated words is another of that kind of disfluencies and so forth . So we had both the beginnings and ends of these {disfmarker} uh so , the end of a filled pause and the end of a discourse marker . And we just eyeballed {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} we didn't really hand - tag all of these things . We just {pause} looked at the distribution of words , and so every {vocalsound} " so yeah " , and " OK " , uh , and " uh - huh " were {disfmarker} were the {disfmarker} were deemed to be backchannels and {vocalsound} " wow " and " so " and {vocalsound} uh " right " , uh were um {disfmarker} {pause} Not " right " . " Right " is a backchannel . But so , we sort of {disfmarker} just based on the lexical {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um , identity of the words , we {disfmarker} we tagged them as one of these things . And of course the d the interruption points we got from the original transcripts . So , and then we looked at the disti so we looked at the {pause} distribution of these different kinds of tags , overall uh , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and particularly at the interruption points . And uh , we found that there is a marked difference so that for instance after {disfmarker} so at the end after a discourse marker or after backchannel or after filled pause , you 're much more likely to be interrupted {vocalsound} than before . OK ? And also of course after spurt ends , which means basically in p inside pauses . So pauses are always an opportunity for {disfmarker} So we have this little histogram which shows these distributions and , {vocalsound} um ,
PhD D: I wonder {disfmarker}
PhD G: you know , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not {disfmarker} No big surprises , but it is {pause} sort of interesting from {disfmarker}
Grad A: It 's nice to actually measure it though .
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD D: I wonder about the cause and effect there . In other words uh {pause} if you weren't going to pause you {disfmarker} you will because you 're g being interrupted .
PhD G: Well we 're ne
PhD D: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD G: Right . There 's no statement about cause and effect .
PhD D: Yeah , right . No , no , no .
PhD G: This is just a statistical correlation ,
PhD D: Right , I {disfmarker} I see . Yeah .
PhD G: yeah .
Professor F: But he {disfmarker} yeah , he 's {disfmarker} he 's right , y I mean maybe you weren't intending to pause at all , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You were intending to stop for fifty - seven milliseconds ,
PhD G: Right .
Professor F: but then Chuck came in
PhD G: Right .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor F: and so you {vocalsound} paused for a second
PhD G: Right . Anyway . {comment} So ,
Professor F: or more .
PhD G: uh , and that was basically it . And {disfmarker} and we {disfmarker} so we wrote this and then , {vocalsound} we found we were at six pages , and then we started {vocalsound} cutting furiously
PhD B: Oops .
PhD G: and {vocalsound} threw out half of the {vocalsound} material again , and uh played with the LaTeX stuff and {disfmarker}
Grad A: Made the font smaller and the narrows longer .
PhD G: uh , and {disfmarker} until it fi
PhD B: Font smaller , yeah .
PhD G: No , no . W well , d you couldn't really make everything smaller
PhD B: Put the abstract end .
PhD G: but we s we put {disfmarker} Oh , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Grad A: Took out white space .
PhD G: you know the {disfmarker} the gap between the two columns is like ten millimeters ,
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD G: so I d shrunk it to eight millimeters and that helped some . And stuff like that .
PhD D: Wasn't there {disfmarker} wasn't there some result , Andreas {disfmarker}
Professor F: Yeah {disfmarker}
PhD D: I {disfmarker} I thought maybe Liz presented this at some conference a while ago about {vocalsound} uh , backchannels
PhD G: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD D: uh , and that they tend to happen when uh {pause} the pitch drops . You know you get a falling pitch . And so that 's when people tend to backchannel .
PhD G: Yeah . Well {disfmarker}
PhD D: Uh - i i do you rem
PhD G: y We didn't talk about , uh , prosodic , uh , properties at all ,
PhD D: Right . Right . But {disfmarker}
PhD G: although that 's {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I take it that 's something that uh Don will {disfmarker} will look at
Grad E: Yeah , we 're gonna be looking at that .
PhD G: now that we have the data and we have the alignment , so . This is purely based on you know the words
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: and {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: I have a reference for that though . Uh - huh .
PhD D: Oh you do .
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD D: So am I recalling correctly ?
PhD G: Anyway , so .
Postdoc C: Well , I didn't know about Liz 's finding on that ,
PhD D: About {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: but I know of another paper that talks about something
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Postdoc C: that {disfmarker}
PhD D: Hmm .
Grad E: I 'd like to see that reference too .
Postdoc C: OK .
PhD D: It made me think about a cool little device that could be built to uh {disfmarker} to handle those people that call you on the phone and just like to talk and talk and talk . And you just have this little detector that listens for these {vocalsound} drops in pitch and gives them the backchannel . And so then you {vocalsound} hook that to the phone and go off
Grad A: Yeah . Uh - huh .
PhD D: and do the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} do whatever you r wanna do ,
PhD G: Oh yeah . Well {disfmarker}
PhD D: while that thing keeps them busy .
PhD G: There 's actually {disfmarker} uh there 's this a former student of here from Berkeley , Nigel {disfmarker} Nigel Ward .
PhD D: Uh - huh . Sure .
PhD G: Do you know him ?
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD G: He did a system uh , in {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he lives in Japan now , and he did this backchanneling , automatic backchanneling system .
Professor F: Right .
PhD G: It 's a very {disfmarker}
PhD D: Oh !
PhD G: So , exactly what you describe ,
PhD D: Huh .
PhD G: but for Japanese . And it 's apparently {disfmarker} for Japa - in Japanese it 's really important that you backchannel . It 's really impolite if you don't , and {disfmarker} So .
Professor F: Huh . Actually for a lot of these people I think you could just sort of backchannel continuously and it would {pause} pretty much be fine .
PhD D: It wouldn't matter ? Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah . That 's w That 's what I do .
PhD D: Random intervals .
Grad A: There was {disfmarker} there was of course a Monty Python sketch with that . Where the barber who was afraid of scissors was playing a {disfmarker} a tape of clipping sounds , and saying " uh - huh " , " yeah " , " how about them sports teams ? "
PhD G: Anyway . So the paper 's on - line and y I {disfmarker} I think I uh {disfmarker} I CC ' ed a message to Meeting Recorder with the URL so you can get it .
Grad A: Yep .
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad A: Printed it out , haven't read it yet .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: Um , uh one more thing . So I {disfmarker} I 'm actually {disfmarker} {vocalsound} about to send Brian Kingbury an email saying where he can find the {disfmarker} the s the m the material he wanted for the s for the speech recognition experiment , so {disfmarker} but I haven't sent it out yet because actually my desktop locked up , like I can't type anything . Uh b so if there 's any suggestions you have for that I was just gonna send him the {disfmarker}
PhD D: Is it the same directory that you had suggested ?
PhD G: I made a directory . I called it um {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: He still has his Unix account here , you know .
PhD G: Well this isn't {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Yeah .
PhD G: He does ?
Postdoc C: And he {disfmarker} and he 's {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yeah but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but he has to {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: I 'd hafta add him to Meeting Recorder , I guess ,
PhD G: he prefe he said he would prefer FTP
Postdoc C: but {disfmarker} OK .
PhD G: and also , um , the other person that wants it {disfmarker} There is one person at SRI who wants to look at the {vocalsound} um , you know , the uh {disfmarker} the data we have so far ,
Postdoc C: OK .
PhD G: and so I figured that FTP is the best {pause} approach . So what I did is I um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} @ @ {comment} I made a n new directory after Chuck said that would c that was gonna be a good thing . Uh , so it 's " FTP {vocalsound} {pause} pub
Grad A: Pub real .
PhD G: real " {disfmarker} Exactly . MTGC {disfmarker} What is it again ? CR {disfmarker}
Grad A: Ask Dan Ellis .
Professor F: u R D {disfmarker} RDR , yeah .
PhD G: Or {disfmarker} Yeah . Right ? The same {disfmarker} the same as the mailing list ,
Professor F: Yeah ,
PhD G: and {disfmarker}
Professor F: the {disfmarker} {pause} No vowels .
PhD G: Yeah . Um ,
Professor F: Yeah
PhD G: and then under there {disfmarker} Um actually {disfmarker} Oh and this directory , {vocalsound} is not readable . It 's only uh , accessible . So , {vocalsound} in other words , to access anything under there , you have to {vocalsound} be told what the name is .
Grad A: Right .
PhD G: So that 's sort of a g {vocalsound} quick and dirty way of doing access control .
Professor F: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: So {disfmarker} uh , and the directory for this I call it I " ASR zero point one " because it 's sort of meant for recognition .
Professor F: So anyone who hears this meeting now knows the {disfmarker}
Grad A: Beta ?
PhD G: And then {disfmarker} then in there I have a file that lists all the other {vocalsound} files , so that someone can get that file and then know the file names and therefore download them . If you don't know the file names you can't {disfmarker}
Professor F: Is that a dash or a dot in there ?
PhD G: I mean you can {disfmarker}
Grad A: Don't {disfmarker} don't {disfmarker} don't say .
PhD G: Dash . Anyway . So all I {disfmarker} all I was gonna do there was stick the {disfmarker} the transcripts after we {disfmarker} the way that we munged them for scoring , because that 's what he cares about , and {disfmarker} um , and also {disfmarker} and then the {disfmarker} the {pause} waveforms that Don segmented . I mean , just basically tar them all up f I mean {disfmarker} w for each meeting I tar them all into one tar file and G - zip them and stick them there .
Grad A: I uh , put digits in my own home directory {disfmarker} home FTP directory ,
PhD G: And so .
Grad A: but I 'll probably move them there as well .
PhD G: Oh , OK .
PhD D: So we could point Mari to this also for her {vocalsound} March O - one request ?
PhD G: OK . Yeah . March O - one .
PhD D: Or {disfmarker}
PhD G: Oh !
PhD D: You n Remember she was {disfmarker}
PhD G: Oh she wanted that also ?
PhD D: Well she was saying that it would be nice if we had {disfmarker} they had a {disfmarker} Or was she talking {disfmarker} Yeah . She was saying it would be nice if they had eh {pause} the same set , so that when they did experiments they could compare .
PhD G: Right , but they don't have a recognizer even .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad E: Um {disfmarker} I
PhD G: But yeah , we can send {disfmarker} I can CC Mari on this so that she knows {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah . So , for the thing that {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: That 's good .
PhD D: We need to give Brian the beeps file ,
PhD G: Right .
PhD D: so I was gonna probably put it {disfmarker}
Grad A: We can put it in the same place . Just put in another directory .
PhD D: Yeah , it I 'll make another directory .
PhD G: Well , make ano make another directory .
PhD D: Yeah . Exactly .
PhD G: You don't n m
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad E: And , Andreas , um , sampled ?
PhD G: Yeah . They are ?
Grad E: I think so . Yeah . Um , so either we should regenerate the original {vocalsound} versions , {comment} {pause} or um , we should just make a note of it .
PhD G: OK . Oh . Beca - Well {disfmarker} OK , because in one directory there 's two versions .
Grad E: Yeah , that 's the first meeting I cut both versions . Just to check which w if there is a significant difference .
PhD G: OK . And so I {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} OK so {disfmarker} but for the other meetings it 's the downsampled version that you have .
Grad E: They 're all downsampled , yeah .
PhD G: Oh , OK . Oh that 's th important to know , OK so we should probably {disfmarker} uh {pause} give them the non - downsampled versions .
Grad E: Yeah . So {disfmarker}
PhD G: OK . Alright , then I 'll hold off on that and I 'll wait for you um {disfmarker}
Grad E: Probably by tomorrow
PhD G: gen
Grad E: I can {disfmarker} I 'll send you an email .
PhD G: OK . Alright . OK . Yeah , definitely they should have the full bandwidth version ,
Grad E: Yeah , because I mean {disfmarker} I I think Liz decided to go ahead with the {pause} downsampled versions cuz we can {disfmarker} There was no s like , r significant difference .
PhD G: yeah . OK . Well , it takes {disfmarker} it takes up less disk space , for one thing .
Grad E: It does take up less disk space , and apparently it did even better {pause} than the original {disfmarker} than the original versions ,
PhD G: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad E: which you know , is just , probably random .
PhD G: Right . Yeah , it was a small difference
Grad E: But , um {pause} they probably w want the originals .
PhD G: but yeah . Yeah . OK . OK , good . Good that {disfmarker} Well , it 's a good thing that {disfmarker}
Grad A: OK , I think we 're losing , Don and Andreas at three - thirty , right ? OK .
Grad E: Hey mon hafta booga .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: So , that 's why it was good to have Andreas , say these things but {disfmarker} So , we should probably talk about the IBM transcription process stuff that {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: OK . So , um you know that Adam created um , a b a script to generate the beep file ?
Professor F: Hmm .
Postdoc C: To then create something to send to IBM . And , um , you {disfmarker} you should probably talk about that . But {disfmarker} but you were gonna to use the {pause} originally transcribed file because I tightened the time bins and that 's also the one that they had already {vocalsound} in trying to debug the first stage of this . And uh , my understanding was that , um {disfmarker} I haven't {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I haven't listened to it yet ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: but it sounded very good and {disfmarker} and I understand that you guys {vocalsound} were going to have a meeting today , before this meeting .
Grad A: It was just to talk about how to generate it . Um , just so that while I 'm gone , you can regenerate it if you decide to do it a different way . So uh , Chuck and Thilo should , now more or less know how to generate the file
Postdoc C: Excellent . OK .
Grad A: and , {vocalsound} the other thing Chuck pointed out is that , um , {vocalsound} since this one is hand - marked , {vocalsound} there are discourse boundaries . Right ? So {disfmarker} so when one person is speaking , there 's breaks .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Whereas Thilo 's won't have that . So what {disfmarker} what we 're probably gonna do is just write a script , that if two , chunks are very close to each other on the same channel we 'll just merge them .
Postdoc C: Oh ! OK . Ah , interesting . Yeah . Yeah . Oh , sure . Yeah , sure . Makes sense .
Grad A: So , uh , and that will get around the problem of , the , {vocalsound} you know " one word beep , one word beep , one word beep , one word beep " .
Postdoc C: Yeah . Ah ! Clever . Yes . Clever . Yeah . Excellent .
PhD D: Yeah , in fact after our meeting uh , this morning Thilo came in and said that {vocalsound} um , there could be {pause} other differences between {vocalsound} the uh {pause} already transcribed meeting with the beeps in it and one that has {pause} just r been run through his process .
Postdoc C: And that 's the purpose . Yeah .
PhD D: So tomorrow , {vocalsound} when we go to make the um {pause} uh , chunked file {vocalsound} for IBM , we 're going to actually compare the two . So he 's gonna run his process on that same meeting ,
Postdoc C: Great idea !
PhD D: and then we 're gonna do the beep - ify on both , and listen to them and see if we notice any real differences .
PhD G: Beep - ify !
Postdoc C: OK , now one thing that prevented us from apply you {disfmarker} you from applying {disfmarker} Exactly . The training {disfmarker} So that is the training meeting . OK .
PhD D: Yeah , w and we know that . Wel - uh we just wanna if {disfmarker} if there 're any major differences between {vocalsound} doing it on the hand
Postdoc C: Uh - huh . Oh , interesting . Ah !
Grad A: Hmm .
Postdoc C: OK . Interesting idea . Great .
PhD G: So this training meeting , uh w un is that uh {pause} some data where we have uh very um , {vocalsound} you know , accurate {pause} time marks ? for {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: I went back and hand - marked the {pause} ba the bins , I ment I mentioned that last week .
PhD G: OK , yeah .
PhD D: But the {disfmarker} but there 's {disfmarker} yeah , but there is this one issue with them in that there 're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} there are time boundaries in there that occur in the middle of speech .
PhD G: Because {disfmarker}
PhD D: So {disfmarker} Like when we went t to um {disfmarker} When I was listening to the original file that Adam had , it 's like you {disfmarker} you hear a word then you hear a beep {vocalsound} and then you hear the continuation of what is the same sentence .
Grad A: That 's on the other channel . That 's because of channel overlap .
PhD D: Well , and {disfmarker} and so the {disfmarker} th
Postdoc C: Hmm .
Grad A: It 's {disfmarker} i
PhD D: So there are these chunks that look like uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that have uh {disfmarker}
Grad A: I mean that 's not gonna be true of the foreground speaker . That 'll only be if it 's the background speaker .
PhD D: Right . So you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll have a chunk of , you know , channel {vocalsound} A which starts at zero and ends at ten , and then the same channel starting at eleven , ending at fifteen , and then again , starting at sixteen , ending at twenty . Right , so that 's three chunks where {vocalsound} actually we w can just make one chunk out of that which is A , zero , twenty .
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: Yeah .
Grad A: That 's what I just said ,
Postdoc C: Sure . Sure .
Grad A: yeah .
PhD D: Yeah . So I just wanted to make sure that it was clear .
Postdoc C: Yeah , I thought that was {disfmarker}
PhD D: So {vocalsound} if you were to use these , you have to be careful not to pull out these individual {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Yeah .
PhD G: Oh ! I mean it {disfmarker} Right , I mean w I mean what I would {disfmarker} I was interested in is having {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a se having time marks for the beginnings and ends of speech by each speaker .
Grad A: Well , that 's definitely a problem .
PhD G: Uh , because we could use that to fine tune our alignment process
Grad A: Battery .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD G: to make it more accurate .
PhD B: Battery ?
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: So {disfmarker} uh , it {disfmarker} I don't care that you know , there 's actually abutting segments that we have to join together . That 's fine .
PhD D: OK .
PhD G: But what we do care about is that {vocalsound} the beginnings and ends um {pause} are actually close to the speech {vocalsound} inside of that
PhD D: Yeah , I think Jane tightened these up by hand .
PhD G: uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: OK .
Postdoc C: Yeah .
PhD G: OK , so what is the {disfmarker} sort of how tight are they ?
Professor F: Uh , it looks much better .
PhD B: Yeah . Looks good .
Postdoc C: They were , um , reasonably tight , but not excruciatingly tight .
PhD G: Oh .
Postdoc C: That would 've taken more time . I just wanted to get it so tha So that if you have like " yeah " {comment} in a {disfmarker} swimming in a big bin , then it 's {disfmarker}
PhD G: No , no ! I don
Grad A: Let me make a note on yours .
PhD G: actually I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD G: I {disfmarker} it 's f That 's fine because we don't want to {disfmarker} th that 's perfectly fine . In fact it 's good . You always want to have a little bit of pause or nonspeech around the speech , say for recognition purposes . Uh , but just {disfmarker} just u w you know get an id I just wanted to have an idea of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of how much extra you allowed um {disfmarker} so that I can interpret the numbers if I compared that with a forced alignment segmentation .
Postdoc C: I can't answer that ,
PhD G: So .
Postdoc C: but {disfmarker} but my main goal was {pause} um , in these areas where you have a three - way overlap {vocalsound} and one of the overlaps involves " yeah " , {vocalsound} and it 's swimming in this huge bin , {vocalsound} I wanted to get it so that it was clo more closely localized .
PhD G: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Right . But are we talking about , I don't know , {pause} a {vocalsound} {pause} tenth of a second ? a {disfmarker} ? You know ? How {disfmarker} how much {disfmarker} how much extra would you allow at most {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: I {disfmarker} I wanted to {disfmarker} I wanted it to be able to {disfmarker} l he be heard normally ,
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: so that if you {disfmarker} if you play {pause} back that bin and have it in the mode where it stops at the boundary , {vocalsound} it sounds like a normal word .
PhD G: OK .
Postdoc C: It doesn't sound like the person {disfmarker} i it sounds normal . It 's as if the person could 've stopped there .
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: And it wouldn't have been an awkward place to stop .
PhD G: OK .
Postdoc C: Now sometimes you know , it 's {disfmarker} these are involved in places where there was no time . And so , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} there wouldn't be {pause} a gap afterwards because {disfmarker}
PhD G: OK .
Postdoc C: I mean some cases , there 're some people {pause} um , who {disfmarker} who have very long {pause} segments of discourse where , {vocalsound} you know , they 'll {disfmarker} they 'll breath {pause} and then I put a break .
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: But other than that , it 's really pretty continuous and this includes things like going from one sentence into the {disfmarker} u one utterance into the next , one sentence into the next , um , w without really stopping . I mean {disfmarker} i they , i you know in writing you have this {vocalsound} two spaces and a big gap
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: you know .
PhD G: Right .
Postdoc C: But {disfmarker} but uh {pause} {vocalsound} i some people are planning and , you know , I mean , a lot {disfmarker} we always are planning {pause} what we 're going to say next .
PhD G: OK .
Postdoc C: But uh , in which case , the gap between {pause} these two complete syntactic units , {vocalsound} um , which of course n spoken things are not always complete syntactically , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but it would be a shorter p shorter break {vocalsound} than {vocalsound} maybe you might like .
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: But the goal there was to {pause} not have {vocalsound} the text be so {disfmarker} so crudely {pause} parsed in a time bin . I mean , because {vocalsound} from a discourse m purpose {pause} it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's more {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's more useful to be able to see {disfmarker} and also you know , from a speech recognition purpose my impression is that {vocalsound} if you have too long a unit , it 's {disfmarker} it doesn't help you very much either , cuz of the memory .
PhD G: Well , yeah . That 's fine .
Postdoc C: So , that means that {vocalsound} the amount of time after something is variable depending partly on context , but my general goal {vocalsound} when there was {pause} sufficient space , room , pause {pause} after it {pause} to have it be {pause} kind of a natural feeling {pause} gap .
PhD G: OK .
Postdoc C: Which I c I don't know what it would be quantified as . You know , Wally Chafe says that {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} in producing narratives , the spurts that people use {vocalsound} tend to be , {vocalsound} uh , that the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} what would be a pause might be something like two {disfmarker} two seconds .
PhD G: Mmm .
Postdoc C: And um , that would be , you know one speaker . The discourse {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the people who look at turn taking often do use {disfmarker}
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: I was interested that you chose uh , {vocalsound} you know um , {comment} the {disfmarker} you know that you use cuz I think that 's a unit that would be more consistent with sociolinguistics . Yeah .
PhD G: Well we chose um , you know , half a second because {vocalsound} if {disfmarker} if you go much larger , you have a {disfmarker} y you know , your {disfmarker} your statement about how much overlap there is becomes less , {vocalsound} um , precise ,
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: because you include more of actual pause time into what you consider overlap speech . Um , so , it 's sort of a compromise ,
PhD B: Yeah . {comment} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , I also used I think something around zero point five seconds for the speech - nonspeech detector {disfmarker}
PhD G: and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's also based {disfmarker} I mean Liz suggested that value based on {vocalsound} the distribution of pause times that you see in Switchboard and {disfmarker} and other corpora .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Um {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}
PhD B: for the minimum silence length .
PhD G: Mm - hmm . I see .
PhD B: So .
PhD G: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: OK .
Postdoc C: In any case , this {disfmarker} this uh , meeting {pause} that I hand {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I hand - adjusted two of them I mentioned before ,
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: and I sent {disfmarker} I sent email ,
PhD G: OK ,
Postdoc C: so {disfmarker}
PhD G: So {disfmarker} so at some point we will try to fine - tune our forced alignment
Postdoc C: And I sent the {comment} {pause} path .
PhD G: maybe using those as references because you know , what you would do is you would play with different parameters . And to get an object You need an objective {vocalsound} measure of how closely you can align the models to the actual speech . And that 's where your your data would be {pause} very important to have . So , I will {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah and hopefully the new meetings {pause} which will start from the channelized version will {disfmarker} will have better time boundaries {pause} and alignments .
PhD G: Mm - hmm . Right .
Postdoc C: But I like this idea of {disfmarker} uh , for our purposes for the {disfmarker} for the IBM preparation , {vocalsound} uh , n having these {pause} joined together ,
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc C: and uh {disfmarker} It makes a lot of sense . And in terms of transcription , it would be easy to do it that way .
PhD G: Yeah .
Postdoc C: The way that they have with the longer units ,
PhD G: Yeah .
Postdoc C: not having to fuss with adding these units at this time .
PhD B: Yeah . Whi - which could have one drawback . If there is uh a backchannel in between those three things ,
PhD G: Right .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: the {disfmarker} the n the backchannel will {disfmarker} will occur at the end of {disfmarker} of those three .
Postdoc C: Yes .
PhD B: And {disfmarker} and in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the previous version where in the n which is used now , {vocalsound} there , the backchannel would {disfmarker} would be in - between there somewhere , so .
Postdoc C: I see .
PhD B: That would be more natural
Postdoc C: Yeah . Well ,
PhD B: but {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: that 's {disfmarker} that 's right , but you know , thi this brings me to the other f stage of this which I discussed with you earlier today ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: which is {vocalsound} the second stage is {vocalsound} um , w what to do {pause} in terms of the transcribers adjustment of these data . I discussed this with you too . Um , the tr so the idea initially was , we would get {vocalsound} uh , for the new meetings , so the e EDU meetings , that {vocalsound} Thilo ha has now presegmented all of them for us , on a channel by channel basis . And um , so , I 've assigned {disfmarker} I 've {disfmarker} I 've assigned them to our transcribers and um , so far I 've discussed it with one , with uh {disfmarker} And I had a {pause} about an hour discussion with her about this yesterday , we went through {vocalsound} uh EDU - one , at some extent . And it occurred to me that {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} that {vocalsound} basically what we have in this kind of a format is {disfmarker} you could consider it as a staggered mixed file , we had some discussion over the weekend a about {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} at this other meeting that we were all a at {disfmarker} um , {vocalsound} about whether the tran the IBM transcribers should hear a single channel audio , or a mixed channel audio . And um , {vocalsound} in {disfmarker} in a way , by {disfmarker} by having this {disfmarker} this chunk and then the backchannel {vocalsound} after it , it 's like a stagal staggered mixed channel . And um , {vocalsound} it occurred {pause} to me in my discussion with her yesterday that um , um , the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker} the maximal gain , it 's {disfmarker} from the IBM {pause} people , may be in long stretches of connected speech . So it 's basically a whole bunch of words {vocalsound} which they can really do , because of the continuity within that person 's turn . So , what I 'm thinking , and it may be that not all meetings will be good for this , {comment} but {disfmarker} but what I 'm thinking is that {vocalsound} in the EDU meetings , they tend to be {vocalsound} driven by a couple of dominant speakers . And , if the chunked files focused on the dominant speakers , {vocalsound} then , when {disfmarker} when it got s patched together when it comes back from IBM , we can add the backchannels . It seems to me {vocalsound} that {vocalsound} um , you know , the backchannels per - se wouldn't be so hard , but then there 's this question of the time {pause} @ @ {comment} uh , marking , and whether the beeps would be {vocalsound} uh y y y And I 'm not exactly sure how that {disfmarker} how that would work with the {disfmarker} with the backchannels . And , so um {disfmarker} And certainly things that are {vocalsound} intrusions of multiple words , {vocalsound} taken out of context and displaced in time from where they occurred , {vocalsound} that would be hard . So , m my {vocalsound} thought is {pause} i I 'm having this transcriber go through {vocalsound} the EDU - one meeting , and indicate a start time {nonvocalsound} f for each dominant speaker , endpoi end time for each dominant speaker , and the idea that {vocalsound} these units would be generated for the dominant speakers , {vocalsound} and maybe not for the other channels .
Grad A: Yeah the only , um , disadvantage of that is , then it 's hard to use an automatic method to do that . The advantage is that it 's probably faster to do that than it is to use the automated method and correct it . So .
Postdoc C: Well , it {disfmarker}
Grad A: We 'll just have to see .
Postdoc C: OK . I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think um , you know , the original plan was that the transcriber would adjust the t the boundaries , and all that for all the channels but , {vocalsound} you know , that is so time - consuming , and since we have a bottleneck here , we want to get IBM things that are usable s as soon as possible , then this seemed to me it 'd be a way of gett to get them a flood of data , which would be useful when it comes back to us . And um {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Oh also , at the same time she {disfmarker} when she goes through this , she 'll be {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} If there 's anything that {vocalsound} was encoded as a pause , but really has something transcribable in it , {vocalsound} then she 's going to {vocalsound} uh , make a mark {disfmarker} w uh , so you know , so {vocalsound} that {disfmarker} that bin would be marked as it {disfmarker} as double dots and she 'll just add an S . And in the other {disfmarker} in the other case , if it 's marked as speech , {vocalsound} and really there 's nothing transcribable in it , then she 's going to put a s dash , and I 'll go through and it {disfmarker} and um , you know , with a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} with a substitution command , get it so that it 's clear that those are the other category . I 'll just , you know , recode them . But um , {vocalsound} um , the transcribable events {pause} that um , I 'm considering in this , {vocalsound} uh , continue to be {vocalsound} laugh , as well as speech , and cough and things like that , so I 'm not stripping out anything , just {disfmarker} just you know , being very lenient in what 's considered speech . Yeah ?
PhD D: Jane ? In terms of the {disfmarker} this new procedure you 're suggesting , {vocalsound} um , u what is the {disfmarker}
Grad A: It 's not that different .
PhD D: So I 'm a little confused , because how do we know where to put beeps ? Is it {disfmarker} i d y is it {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Oh , OK .
Grad A: Transcriber will do it .
Postdoc C: So what it {disfmarker} what it {disfmarker} what it involves is {disfmarker} is really a s uh , {vocalsound} uh , the original pr procedure , but {vocalsound} only applied to {pause} uh , a certain {pause} strategically chosen {pause} s aspect of the data .
Grad A: We pick the easy parts of the data basically ,
Postdoc C: So {disfmarker}
Grad A: and transcriber marks it by hand .
Postdoc C: You got it .
Grad A: And because {disfmarker}
PhD D: But after we 've done Thilo 's thing .
Grad A: No .
Postdoc C: Yes !
Grad A: Oh , after . Oh , OK ,
Postdoc C: Yes !
Grad A: I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't understand that .
Postdoc C: Oh yeah !
Grad A: OK .
PhD B: So , I 'm @ @ {disfmarker} now I 'm confused .
Postdoc C: OK . We start with your presegmented version {disfmarker}
PhD G: OK , and I 'm leaving .
Grad E: Yeah , I have to go as well .
PhD G: So , um {disfmarker}
Grad A: OK , leave the mikes on , and just put them on the table .
Grad E: OK . Thanks .
Postdoc C: We start with the presegmented version {disfmarker}
Grad A: Let me mark you as no digits .
PhD B: You start with the presegmentation , r {vocalsound} yeah ?
Postdoc C: Yeah . And then um , {vocalsound} the transcriber , {vocalsound} instead of going painstakingly through all the channels and moving the boundaries around , and deciding if it 's speech or not , but not transcribing anything . OK ? Instead of doing that , which was our original plan , {vocalsound} the tra They focus on the dominant speaker {disfmarker}
PhD D: Mm - hmm . They just {vocalsound} do that on {pause} the main channels .
Postdoc C: Yeah . So what they do is they identify who 's the di dominant speaker , and when the speaker starts .
PhD D: OK .
PhD B: Yeah ? OK .
Postdoc C: So I mean , you 're still gonna {disfmarker}
PhD B: And you just {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: So we 're {disfmarker} It 's based on your se presegmentation , that 's the basic {pause} thing .
PhD B: and you just use the s the segments of the dominant speaker then ? For {disfmarker} for sending to {disfmarker} to IBM or {disfmarker} ?
Postdoc C: Yeah . Exactly .
PhD D: So , now Jane , my question is {vocalsound} when they 're all done adjusting the w time boundaries for the dominant speaker , {comment} have they then also erased the time boundaries for the other ones ?
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm . Uh No . No , no . Huh - uh . S
PhD D: So how will we know who {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: That 's {disfmarker} that 's why she 's notating the start and end points of the dominant speakers . So , on a {disfmarker} you know , so {vocalsound} i in EDU - one , i as far as I listened to it , you start off with a {disfmarker} a s section by Jerry . So Jerry starts at minute so - and - so , and goes until minute so - and - so . And then Mark Paskin comes in . And he starts at {vocalsound} minute such - and - such , and goes on till minute so - and - so . OK . And then {vocalsound} meanwhile , she 's listening to {vocalsound} {pause} both of these guys ' channels , determining if there 're any cases of misclassification of speech as nothing , and nothing as speech ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm . OK .
Postdoc C: and {vocalsound} a and adding a tag if that happens .
PhD D: So she does the adjustments on those guys ?
Postdoc C: But you know , I wanted to say , his segmentation is so good , that {vocalsound} um , the part that I listened to with her yesterday {vocalsound} didn't need any adjustments of the bins .
PhD B: On that meeting .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: So far we haven't . So this is not gonna be a major part of the process , at least {disfmarker} least not in {disfmarker} not on ones that {disfmarker} that really {disfmarker}
PhD D: So if you don't have to adjust the bins , why not just do what it {disfmarker} for all the channels ?
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm ?
PhD D: Why not just throw all the channels to IBM ?
Postdoc C: Well there 's the question o of {pause} whether {disfmarker} Well , OK . She i It 's a question of how much time we want our transcriber to invest here {vocalsound} when she 's gonna have to invest that when it comes back from IBM anyway .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: So if it 's only inserting " mm - hmm "s here and there , then , wouldn't that be something that would be just as efficient to do at this end , instead of having it go through I B M , then be patched together , then be double checked here .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Right .
PhD B: Yeah . But {disfmarker} But then we could just use the {disfmarker} the output of the detector , and do the beeping on it , and send it to I B
PhD D: Without having her check anything .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor F: Right .
Postdoc C: Well , I guess {disfmarker}
Grad A: I think we just {disfmarker} we just have to listen to it and see how good they are .
PhD B: For some meetings , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sure it {disfmarker} i n
Postdoc C: I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm open to that , it was {disfmarker}
Professor F: Yeah , if it 's working well ,
PhD B: That 's {disfmarker} And some {disfmarker} on some meetings it 's good .
Professor F: that sounds like a good idea since as you say you have to do stuff with the other end anyway .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Well yea OK , good . I mean the detector , this {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah , I mean we have to fix it when it comes back anyhow .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Now , you were saying that they {disfmarker} they differ in how well they work depending on channel s sys systems and stuff .
PhD B: Yeah . So we should perhaps just select meetings on which the speech - nonspeech detection works well ,
Postdoc C: But EDU is great .
PhD B: and just use , {vocalsound} those meetings to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to send to IBM and , do the other ones .
Grad A: Release to begin with .
Postdoc C: How interesting . You know {disfmarker}
Professor F: What 's the problem {disfmarker} the l I forget . Is the problem the lapel , or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker}
PhD B: Uh , it really depends . Um , my {disfmarker} my {disfmarker} my impression is that it 's better for meetings with fewer speakers , and it 's better for {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for meetings where nobody is breathing .
Professor F: Oh ,
PhD B: Yeah ,
Professor F: the dead meetings .
PhD B: get {disfmarker} That 's it .
PhD D: So in fact this might suggest an alternative sort of a {disfmarker} a c a hybrid between these two things .
Grad A: No , the undead meeting , yeah .
Postdoc C: Yeah . Yeah ?
PhD D: So the {disfmarker} the one suggestion is you know we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we run Thilo 's thing and then we have somebody go and adjust all the time boundaries
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Yeah ?
PhD D: and we send it to IBM . The other one is {vocalsound} we just run his thing and send it to IBM .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD D: There 's a {disfmarker} a another possibility if we find that there are some problems ,
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: and that is {vocalsound} if we go ahead and we {vocalsound} just run his , and we generate the beeps file , then we have somebody listen beeps file .
PhD B: Yeah . And erase {disfmarker}
PhD D: And they listen to each section and say " yes , no " whether that section is
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Is intelligible .
PhD D: i i intelligible or not . And it just {disfmarker} You know , there 's a little interface which will {disfmarker} for all the " yes " - es it {disfmarker} then that will be the final {vocalsound} beep file .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: Blech .
Postdoc C: That 's interesting ! Cuz that 's {disfmarker} that 's directly related to the e end task .
Grad A: Stress test .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: How interesting !
PhD D: Yeah . I mean it wouldn't be that much fun for a transcriber to sit there , hear it , beep , yes or no .
PhD B: Nope .
Professor F: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know .
PhD D: But it would be quick .
Professor F: It would be {disfmarker} kind of quick but they 're still listening to everything .
PhD D: But there 's no adjusting . And that 's what 's slow . There 's no adjusting of time boundaries .
Postdoc C: Well , {vocalsound} eh , listening does take time too .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor F: Yeah . I don't know , I {disfmarker} I think I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm really tending towards {disfmarker}
Grad A: One and a half times real time .
Professor F: I mean , {vocalsound} what 's the worst that happens ? Do the transcribers {disfmarker} I mean as long as th on the other end they can say there 's {disfmarker} there 's something {disfmarker} conventions so that they say " huh ? "
PhD D: Yeah . Right . They {disfmarker} they {disfmarker}
Professor F: and then we can flag those later .
PhD D: Yeah . That 's true .
Professor F: i i It {disfmarker} i
PhD D: We can just catch it at the {disfmarker} catch everything at this side .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD D: Well maybe that 's the best way to go ,
Postdoc C: How interesting !
PhD D: just {disfmarker}
Grad A: I mean it just depends on how {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Well EDU {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah ,
Grad A: Sorry , go ahead .
PhD B: u u u
Postdoc C: So I was gonna say , EDU - one is good enough ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: maybe we could include it in this {disfmarker} in this set of uh , this stuff we send .
PhD B: Yeah there 's {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think there are some meetings where it would {disfmarker} would {disfmarker} It 's possible like this .
Grad A: Yeah I {disfmarker} I think , we won't know until we generate a bunch of beep files automatically , listen to them and see how bad they are .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: We won't be able to s include it with this first thing ,
Grad A: If {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Hmm . Oh , OK .
PhD D: because there 's a part of the process of the beep file which requires knowing the normalization coefficients .
Postdoc C: Oh , I see .
PhD D: And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So a
Grad A: That 's not hard to do . Just {disfmarker} it takes {disfmarker} you know , it just takes five minutes rather than , taking a second .
PhD D: OK
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: So . I just hand {disfmarker} hard - coded it .
PhD D: Right , except I don't think that {disfmarker} the c the instructions for doing that was in that directory , right ? I {disfmarker} I didn't see where you had gener
Grad A: No , but it 's easy enough to do .
PhD B: What {disfmarker}
Professor F: But I {disfmarker} but I have a {disfmarker}
PhD B: Doing the gain ? It 's no problem . Adjusting the gain ?
PhD D: n Doing th No , getting the coefficients , for each channel .
PhD B: Yeah , that 's no problem .
Postdoc C: Know what numbers .
PhD D: OK . So we just run that one {disfmarker}
Grad A: There are lots of ways to do it .
PhD B: We can do that .
Grad A: I have one program that 'll do it . You can find other programs .
PhD B: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I used it , so .
PhD D: We just run that
Grad A: Yep .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD D: J - sound - stat ? OK .
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad A: Minus D , capital D .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor F: But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I have {pause} another suggestion on that , which is , {vocalsound} since , really what this is , is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is trying to in the large , send the right thing to them and there is gonna be this {disfmarker} this post - processing step , um , why don't we check through a bunch of things by sampling it ?
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Right ? In other words , rather than , um , uh , saying we 're gonna listen to everything {disfmarker}
Grad A: I didn't mean listen to everything , I meant , just see if they 're any good .
Professor F: Yeah . So y you do a bunch of meetings , you listen to {disfmarker} to a little bit here and there ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor F: if it sounds like it 's almost always right and there 's not any big problem you send it to them .
PhD D: Send it to them .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD D: OK .
Professor F: And , you know , then they 'll send us back what we {disfmarker} w what {disfmarker} what they send back to us ,
Postdoc C: Oh , that 'd be great .
Professor F: and we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll fix things up and {vocalsound} some meetings will cost more time to fix up than others .
Grad A: We should {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: And we should just double - check with Brian on a few simple conventions on how they should mark things .
PhD B: Sure .
PhD D: OK . When they {disfmarker} when there 's either no speech in there ,
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: or {vocalsound} something they don't understand ,
Postdoc C: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
PhD D: things like that .
Grad A: Yeah , cuz @ @ uh what I had originally said to Brian was well they 'll have to mark , when they can't distinguish between the foreground and background ,
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad A: because I thought that was gonna be the most prevalent . But if we send them without editing , then we 're also gonna hafta have m uh , notations for words that are cut off ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: and other sorts of , uh , acoustic problems .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: They do already .
PhD D: And they may just guess at what those cut - off words are ,
Postdoc C: Yeah .
PhD D: but w I mean we 're gonna adjust {disfmarker} everything when we come back {disfmarker}
Grad A: But what {disfmarker} what we would like them to do is be conservative so that they should only write down the transcript if they 're sure .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: And otherwise they should mark it so that we can check .
PhD B: Mark it . Sure . Yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: Well , we have the unintelligibility {pause} convention .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: And actually they have one also ,
Grad A: Right .
Postdoc C: which {disfmarker}
Professor F: i Can I maybe have {disfmarker} have an order of {disfmarker} it 's probably in your paper that I haven't looked at lately , but {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Certainty .
Professor F: Uh , an order of magnitude notion of {disfmarker} of how {disfmarker} on a good meeting , how often uh , do you get segments that come in the middle of words and so forth , and uh {disfmarker} in a bad meeting how {vocalsound} often ?
PhD B: Uh .
Postdoc C: Was is it in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what is the t
Professor F: Well he 's saying , you know , that the {disfmarker} the EDU meeting was a good {disfmarker} good meeting ,
Postdoc C: In a good meeting , what ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Yeah .
Professor F: right ?
Postdoc C: Oh I see ,
Professor F: Uh , and so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so it was almost {disfmarker} it was almost always doing the right thing .
Postdoc C: the characteristics .
Professor F: So I wanted to get some sense of what {disfmarker} what almost always meant . And then , uh in a bad meeting , {vocalsound} or p some meetings where he said oh he 's had some problems , what does that mean ?
Postdoc C: Uh - huh . OK .
Professor F: So I mean does one of the does it mean one percent and ten percent ? Or does it mean {vocalsound} five percent and fifty percent ?
Postdoc C: OK .
Professor F: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: So {disfmarker}
Professor F: Or {disfmarker} Maybe percentage isn't the right word ,
Postdoc C: Just
PhD B: Yeah th
Professor F: but you know how many {disfmarker} how many per minute , or {disfmarker} You know .
PhD B: Yeah , the {disfmarker} the problem is that , nnn , the numbers Ian gave in the paper is just uh , some frame error rate . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's not really {disfmarker} {vocalsound} What will be effective for {disfmarker} for the transcribers , is {disfmarker} They have to {disfmarker} yeah , in in they have to insure that that 's a real s spurt or something . And {disfmarker} but , {vocalsound} the numbers {disfmarker} Oops . Um {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Hmm !
PhD B: Let me think . So the {pause} speech {disfmarker} the amount of speech that is missed by the {pause} detector , for a good meeting , I th is around {pause} or under one percent , I would say . But there can be {disfmarker} Yeah . For {disfmarker} yeah , but there can be more {disfmarker} There 's {disfmarker} There 's more amount speech {disfmarker} uh , more amount of {disfmarker} Yeah well , the detector says there is speech , but there is none . So that {disfmarker} that can be a lot when {disfmarker} when it 's really a breathy channel .
Professor F: But I think that 's less of a problem .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor F: They 'll just listen . It 's just wasted time .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor F: And th and that 's for a good meeting . Now what about in a meeting that you said we 've {disfmarker} you 've had some more trouble with ?
PhD B: I can't {comment} really {disfmarker} hhh , {comment} {pause} Tsk . {comment} I {pause} don't have really representative numbers , I think . That 's really {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I did {pause} this on {disfmarker} on four meetings and only five minutes of {disfmarker} of every meet of {disfmarker} of these meetings so , {vocalsound} it 's not {disfmarker} not that representative , but , it 's perhaps , Fff . Um {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's perhaps then {disfmarker} it 's perhaps five percent of something , which s uh the {disfmarker} the frames {disfmarker} speech frames which are {disfmarker} which are missed , but um , I can't {disfmarker} can't really tell .
Professor F: Right . So I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So i Sometime , we might wanna go back and look at it more in terms of {vocalsound} how many times is there a spurt that 's {disfmarker} that 's uh , interrupted ?
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
Professor F: Something like that ?
Postdoc C: The other problem is , that when it {disfmarker} when it uh d i on the breathy ones , where you get {vocalsound} {vocalsound} breathing , uh , inti indicated as speech .
Professor F: And {disfmarker}
PhD B: So {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: And I guess we could just indicate to the transcribers not to {pause} encode that if they {disfmarker} We could still do the beep file .
Professor F: Yeah again I {disfmarker} I think that that is probably less of a problem because if you 're {disfmarker} if there 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If {disfmarker} if a {disfmarker} if a word is {disfmarker} is split , then they might have to listen to it a few times to really understand that they can't quite get it .
Postdoc C: OK . OK .
PhD B: But {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: OK .
Professor F: Whereas if they listen {nonvocalsound} to it and there 's {disfmarker} don't hear any speech I think they 'd probably just listen to it once .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor F: So there 'd {disfmarker} you 'd think there 'd be a {disfmarker} a factor of three or four in {disfmarker} in , uh , cost function ,
Postdoc C: OK .
Professor F: you know , between them or something .
PhD B: Yeah , so {disfmarker} but I think that 's {disfmarker} n that really doesn't happen very often that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that a word is cut in the middle or something . That 's {disfmarker} that 's really not {disfmarker} not normal .
Professor F: So {disfmarker} so what you 're saying is that nearly always what happens when there 's a problem is that {disfmarker} is that uh , there 's {vocalsound} some uh , uh nonspeech that uh {disfmarker} that is b interpreted as speech .
PhD B: That is marked as speech . Yeah . Yeah .
Professor F: Well then , we really should just send the stuff .
Postdoc C: That would be great .
Professor F: Right ? Because that doesn't do any harm .
PhD B: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker}
Professor F: You know , if they {disfmarker} they hear you know , a dog bark and they say what was the word , they {comment} you know , they {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah , I als I {disfmarker}
Professor F: Ruff ruff !
PhD B: Yeah I also thought of {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there are really some channels where it is almost {comment} um , only bre breathing in it . And to {disfmarker} to re - run 's
Professor F: Yeah ?
PhD B: Eh , um . Yeah . I 've got a {disfmarker} a {pause} P - a {pause} method with loops into the cross - correlation with the PZM mike , and then to reject everything which {disfmarker} which seems to be breath .
Professor F: Uh - huh .
PhD B: So , I could run this on those breathy channels , and perhaps throw out {disfmarker}
Grad A: That 's a good idea .
Postdoc C: Wow , that 's a great idea .
Professor F: Yeah . But I think {disfmarker} I th Again , I think that sort of {disfmarker} that that would be good ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor F: and what that 'll do is just cut the time a little further .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: But I think none of this is stuff that really needs somebody doing these {disfmarker} these uh , uh , explicit markings .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Excellent . Oh , I 'd be delighted with that , I {disfmarker} I was very impressed with the {disfmarker} with the result . Yeah .
Professor F: Yeah , cuz the other thing that was concerning me about it was that it seemed kind of specialized to the EDU meeting , and {disfmarker} and that then when you get a meeting like this or something ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor F: and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and you have a b a bunch of different dominant speakers
Postdoc C: Oh yeah , interesting .
Professor F: you know , how are you gonna handle it .
Postdoc C: Oh yeah .
Professor F: Whereas this sounds like a more general solution
Postdoc C: Oh yeah , I pr I much prefer this ,
Professor F: is {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: I was just trying to find a way {disfmarker} Cuz I {disfmarker} I don't think the staggered mixed channel is awfully good as a way of handling overlaps .
Professor F: Yeah . Uh - huh .
Postdoc C: But {disfmarker} but uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: Well good . That {disfmarker} that really simplifies thing then .
Postdoc C: Yeah .
PhD D: And we can just , you know , get the meeting , process it , put the beeps file , send it off to IBM .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: You know ?
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD D: With very little {pause} work on our side .
PhD B: Process it , hear into it . I would {disfmarker}
PhD D: Do what ?
PhD B: Um , {pause} listen to it , and then {disfmarker}
Grad A: Or at least sample it .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD D: Well , sample it .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD D: Sample it .
Professor F: I {disfmarker} I would just use some samples ,
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor F: make sure you don't send them three hours of " bzzz " {comment} or something .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD B: No .
PhD D: Yeah . Right .
PhD B: That won't be good .
Postdoc C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah that would be very good .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD D: And then we can you know {disfmarker}
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD D: That 'll oughta be a good way to get the pipeline going .
Postdoc C: Oh , I 'd be delighted . Yeah .
PhD B: And there 's {disfmarker} there 's one point which I {comment} uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah , which {disfmarker} which I r {vocalsound} we covered when I {disfmarker} when I r listened to one of the EDU meetings ,
Professor F: Great .
PhD B: and that 's {vocalsound} that somebody is playing sound from his laptop .
Grad A: Uh - huh
PhD B: And i {vocalsound} the speech - nonspeech detector just assigns randomly the speech to {disfmarker} to one of the channels , so . Uh - I haven't - I didn't think of {disfmarker} of s of {vocalsound} this before ,
Grad A: What can you do ?
PhD B: but what {disfmarker} what shall we do about s things like this ?
Postdoc C: Well you were suggesting {disfmarker} You suggested maybe just not sending that part of the meeting .
Grad A: Yep . Mmm .
Postdoc C: But {disfmarker}
PhD B: But , sometimes the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the laptop is in the background and some {disfmarker} somebody is {disfmarker} is talking , and , {vocalsound} that 's really a little bit confusing , but {disfmarker}
Grad A: It 's a little bit confusing .
Professor F: That 's life .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: I mean , {comment} what 're we gonna do ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: Even a hand - transcription would {disfmarker}
PhD B: OK .
Postdoc C: Do you {disfmarker}
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad A: a hand - transcriber would have trouble with that .
PhD B: Yeah ,
Grad A: So .
PhD B: that 's {disfmarker} that 's a second question , " what {disfmarker} what will different transcribers do with {disfmarker} with the laptop sound ? "
Postdoc C: Would you {disfmarker} would {disfmarker}
Professor F: What was the l what was the laptop sound ?
Postdoc C: Yeah , go ahead .
Professor F: I mean was it speech ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor F: or was it {disfmarker}
PhD B: It 's speech .
Professor F: Great .
Postdoc C: Well , so {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} So my standard approach has been if it 's not someone close - miked , then , they don't end up on one of the close - miked channels . They end up on a different channel . And we have any number of channels available ,
Professor F: Uh - huh .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: I mean it 's an infinite number of channels .
PhD B: But ,
Postdoc C: So just put them on some other channel .
PhD B: when thi when this is sent to {disfmarker} to the I M - eh , I B M transcribers , I don't know if {disfmarker} if they can tell that 's really {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Yeah , that 's right .
Grad A: Yeah cuz there will be no channel on which it is foreground .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad A: Uh {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Well , they have a convention , in their own procedures , {vocalsound} which is for a background {pause} sound .
Grad A: Right , but , uh , in general I don't think we want them transcribing the background , cuz that would be too much work .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: Right ? For it {disfmarker} because in the overlap sections , then they 'll
PhD D: Well I don't think Jane 's saying they 're gonna transcribe it , but they 'll just mark it as being {disfmarker} there 's some background stuff there ,
Grad A: But that 's gonna be all over the place .
Postdoc C: Yeah .
PhD D: right ?
Grad A: How w how will they tell the difference between that sort of background and the dormal {disfmarker} normal background of two people talking at once ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Oh , I think {disfmarker} I think it 'd be easy to to say " background laptop " .
Grad A: How would they know that ?
PhD D: But wait a minute , why would they treat them differently ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Well because one of them {disfmarker}
Grad A: Because otherwise it 's gonna be too much work for them to mark it . They 'll be marking it all over the place .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Oh , I s background laptop or , background LT {vocalsound} {vocalsound} wouldn't take any time .
Grad A: Sure , but how are they gonna tell bet the difference between that and two people just talking at the same time ?
Postdoc C: And {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Oh , you can tell . Acoustically , can't you tell ?
PhD B: It 's really good sound , so {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Oh is it ? Oh !
Professor F: Well , I mean , isn't there a category something like uh , " sounds for someone for whom there is no i close mike " ?
PhD B: Yeah that would be very important ,
Grad A: But how do we d how do we do that for the I B M folks ?
Postdoc C: Yeah .
PhD B: yeah .
Grad A: How can they tell that ?
PhD D: Well we may just have to do it when it gets back here .
Grad A: Yes , that 's my opinion as well .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: So we don't do anything for it {disfmarker} with it .
Postdoc C: OK .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc C: That sounds good .
Grad A: And they 'll just mark it however they mark it ,
Postdoc C: That sounds good .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad A: and we 'll correct it when it comes back .
PhD B: So th
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD B: there was a category for @ @ {comment} speech .
Postdoc C: OK .
Grad A: Yeah , the default .
Postdoc C: Yeah , s a
Grad A: No , not default .
PhD B: OK .
Postdoc C: Well , as it comes back , we have a uh {disfmarker} when we can use the channelized interface for encoding it , then it 'll be easy for us to handle .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but if {disfmarker} if out of context , they can't tell if it 's a channeled speak uh , you know , a close - miked speaker or not , {vocalsound} then that would be confusing to them .
PhD B: OK .
Grad A: Right .
PhD B: OK .
Postdoc C: I don't know , I {disfmarker} it doesn't {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} Either way would be fine with me , I don't really care .
Professor F: Yeah . So . Shall we uh , do digits and get out of here ?
Grad A: Yep .
Postdoc C: I have o I have one question . Do you think we should send the um {disfmarker} that whole meeting to them and not worry about pre - processing it ?
Professor F: Yes ma '
Postdoc C: Or {disfmarker} Uh , what I mean is {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} we should {vocalsound} leave the {vocalsound} part with the audio in the uh , beep file that we send to IBM for that one , or should we {vocalsound} start after the {disfmarker} that part of the meeting is over in what we send .
Professor F: Which part ?
PhD B: With {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: So , the part where they 're using sounds from their {disfmarker} from their laptops .
PhD B: with the laptop sound , or {disfmarker} ? just {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: w If we have speech from the laptop should we just uh , excise that from what we send to IBM , or should we {vocalsound} i give it to them and let them do with it what they can ?
PhD D: I think we should just {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's gonna be too much work if we hafta {vocalsound} worry about that I think .
Postdoc C: OK , that 'd be nice to have a {disfmarker} a uniform procedure .
PhD D: Yeah , I think if we just {disfmarker} m send it all to them . you know .
Grad A: Worry about it when we get back .
Postdoc C: Good . And see how well they do .
PhD D: Let {disfmarker} Yeah , worry about it when we get back in .
Postdoc C: And give them freedom to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to indicate if it 's just not workable .
Professor F: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Yeah ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc C: OK ,
Professor F: Yeah .
Postdoc C: excellent .
Professor F: Cuz , I wouldn't {disfmarker} don't think we would mind {pause} having that {pause} transcribed , if they did it .
Grad A: I think {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah , e
Grad A: As I say , we 'll just have to listen to it and see how horrible it is .
Postdoc C: Yeah , yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: Sample it , rather .
Postdoc C: OK . Alright .
PhD B: I think that {disfmarker} that will be a little bit of a problem
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc C: That 's great .
PhD B: as it really switches around between {vocalsound} two different channels , I think .
Grad A: Mm - hmm , and {disfmarker} and they 're very {disfmarker} it 's very audible ? on the close - talking channels ?
PhD B: What {disfmarker} what I would {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad A: Oh well . I mean , it 's the same problem as the lapel mike .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: But {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Oh , interesting .
PhD B: Comparable , yeah .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD B: OK .
Postdoc C: OK , alright . Digits .
Professor F: Let 's do digits .
Postdoc C: OK , so we read the transcript number first , right ?
Grad A: Are we gonna do it altogether or separately ?
PhD B: So {disfmarker} What time is it ?
Professor F: Uh , {vocalsound} why don't we do it together ,
Postdoc C: Uh , quarter to four .
PhD B: Oh , OK .
Professor F: that 's {disfmarker} that 's a nice fast way to do it .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: One , two , three , go !
Postdoc C: It 's kind of interesting if there 're any more errors in these , {vocalsound} than we had the first set .
Grad A: Nnn , yeah , I think there probably will be .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD D: Do you guys plug your ears when you do it ?
Grad A: I do .
PhD B: No .
Postdoc C: I usually do .
PhD D: I do .
PhD B: I don't .
Postdoc C: I didn't this time .
PhD D: You don't ?
PhD B: No .
Professor F: I haven't been ,
PhD D: How can you do that ?
Professor F: no .
PhD D: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Professor F: Uh , concentration .
PhD B: Perhaps there are {vocalsound} lots of errors in it
PhD D: Gah !
Grad A: Total concentration . Are you guys ready ?
PhD D: You hate to have your ears plugged ?
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD D: Really ?
| |
doc_17
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The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC)): Honourable members, I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 15thmeeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. This will be a hybrid meeting. Members will be participating via video conference or in person. I will remind you that in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not also be connecting by video conference. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up here on either side of the Speaker's chair, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces on their desks. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name and please direct your remarks through the chair. For those joining by video conference, I'd like to remind you to leave your microphones on mute when you are not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you need to be on the English channel for interpretation, and if you want to speak French, you should do so on the French channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, please change to the channel for the language that you happen to be using at the time. Should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order. Those in the Chamber can rise in the usual way. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. We will now proceed to ministerial announcements. I invite the Right Hon. Prime Minister to take the floor.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Papineau, Lib.): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I rise today to address what so many people of colour live with every day. Over the past few days, we've seen horrific reports of police violence against black men and women south of the border, but these are not isolated incidents or elsewhere problems. Prejudice, discrimination and violence are a lived reality for far too many people. They are a result of systems that far too often condone, normalize, perpetrate and perpetuate inequality and injustice against people of colour. As a country, we are not concerned bystanders simply watching what is happening next door. We are part of it. The calls for justice, for equality and for peace are found echoed in our communities, because anti-black racism is happening here, everywhere in Canada, every single day. This is something that our own staff, cabinet ministers and colleagues face even in these halls. Over the past few days, I've heard many of these personal stories directly from them. I'm not just talking about acts of violence. I'm also talking about microaggressions, which many of us may not even see. That is the daily reality of far too many racialized Canadians, and it needs to stop. When it comes to being an ally, I have made serious mistakes in the past, mistakes that I deeply regret and continue to learn from. I want to thank my colleagues, community leaders and fellow Canadians for opening my eyes to what is really going on in our communities and for helping me better understand both privilege and power. I'm not perfect, but not being perfect is not a free pass to not do the right thing. It's not an excuse to not step up, stand up for each other, be an ally. I know that for so many people listening right now, the last thing you want to hear is another speech on racism from a white politician. I'm not here today to describe a reality I do not know or to speak to a pain I have not felt. I'm here because I want you to know that our government is listening. We hear your calls for justice, equality and accountability. We acknowledge your frustration, your anger, your heartbreak. We see you. Since coming to office, our government has taken many concrete steps to fight anti-black racism, systemic discrimination and injustice across the country. We are working directly with the communities and their leaders to close the gaps that persist in Canada. For example, we have provided $9million to support programs for black Canadian youth. We have made significant investments to enable the Public Health Agency of Canada to provide more mental health services to people who have experienced racism or intergenerational trauma. We are helping community organizations to obtain funding to purchase equipment or lease space. We have also created the anti-racism secretariat, which has an envelope of $4.6million, to address systemic barriers, such as employment, justice and social participation, that perpetuate injustice. We have made progress, but we know the work is far from being done. Over the past five years, our government has worked with communities to recognize and address injustices. We've taken action to support community organizations, invest in better data and fight racism. While we've made some progress, there is still so much more to do, because here are the facts in Canada: Anti-black racism is real. Unconscious bias is real. Systemic discrimination is real. For millions of Canadians, it is their daily, lived reality. The pain and damage it causes are real too. Mr. Chair, every Canadian who has felt the weight of oppression, every student who has the courage to demand a better future, every person who marches and posts and reads and fights, from Vancouver to Montreal to Halifax, expects more than the status quo. They expect more and deserve better. The Government of Canada has a lot of work to do, but we're ready. We're ready to work with our opposition colleagues, community leaders and Canadians to make our country a more just and fair place. Racism never has a place in this country, and we will do everything we can to eradicate it from coast to coast to coast. Thank you, Mr.Chair.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable Leader of the Opposition.
Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Over the past week, we have all been affected by the heartbreaking killing of George Floyd in the United States. The video is painful to watch. No one should ever have to plead for help while a crime is being committed, ignored by other members of law enforcement. The tragedy triggered marches, occupations, protests and, unfortunately, riots. However, I hope it has mostly sparked conversations. Racism is real, painful and unacceptable. No one should ever feel unsafe because of the colour of their skin, especially around police officers who have a duty and a responsibility to uphold the law for all. Here in Canada, we are fortunate to live in a country that is welcoming, tolerant and inclusive. Canada was a beacon of freedom to so many escaping slavery during the U.S. Civil War. Our nation has benefited immensely from great Canadians who overcame prejudices and discrimination to serve their communities and make Canada a better country: Lincoln Alexander, elected as a Conservative in 1968, was the first black member of Parliament and went on to become the first black cabinet minister; John Ware was born into slavery in South Carolina but, following the American Civil War, was a leading figure in bringing the first cattle to Alberta and spearheading the ranching industry that would become the backbone of the province; Josiah Henson escaped slavery to become a thriving businessman in Ontario; and of course, Viola Desmond challenged segregation in Nova Scotia. Black Canadians throughout history have not just built this nation with their contributions; they have also represented Canada with excellence and pride on the world stage, like Harry Jerome, who represented Canada in three Olympic Games and won a bronze medal in 1964. He would go on to become a teacher in British Columbia, once again serving with excellence to try to make a better world for the next generation. Throughout our history, black Canadians have put their lives on the line for their fellow Canadians, bravely serving around the world in our armed forces. While there are many things we can point to in our history with pride, that is not to say that we have a perfect record, nor that we are immune to the threat of racism or that anti-black racism is just an American problem. Canada has had its own dark episodes of racism that cannot be ignoredsadly, not just in our past. Every day, there are people who experience discrimination or racism in some form. Throughout this pandemic, we have seen a troubling spike in anti-Asian racism. No one should be attacked in their community or targeted on the bus because of the colour of their skin. Nor should places of worship be broken into and desecrated, like the synagogue in Montreal. The Conservatives condemn all acts of anti-semitism, racism and discrimination. In a peaceful and free country like Canada, there is absolutely no room for intolerance, racism or extremism of any kind. But the violence and destruction we have seen in response are not the answer. Millions of people are protesting peacefully across the United States and in Canada, and we must always protect the rights of people who are protesting peacefully and within the law for a just cause and separate them from those who exploit tragedies to commit acts of violence. Mr. Floyd's brother, Terrence, said that violence will not bring his brother back. Instead, he has called for peace and justice and urged the crowds to educate themselves and to vote. Out of such tragedy, Mr. Chair, that is a powerful message about how each one of us can use our democratic rights to effect change. In a peaceful and free country like Canada, there is absolutely no room for intolerance, racism and extremism of any kind. We are not born believing we are better than one another. We are all created in the image and likeness of God, and because of that, we are all equal. An infinite value exists in each one of us. Canada is an incredibly diverse country. Canada is a nation of immigrants that stands on the traditional territories of first nations, Inuit and Mtis people. Waves of newcomers have come to Canada for a better life because our country is built on a rock-solid foundation of enduring values, democratic institutions, the rule of law and fundamental and universal human rights. Everyone comes here because Canada is built on solid values, democratic institutions, and respect for the rule of law, as well as for fundamental, universal human rights. We must absolutely protect these values, because they are what sets us apart. They allow Canada to offer what so many other countries simply cannot. There are those who say that diversity is our strength, and that is true, but it doesn't quite capture the full picture. Diversity is the result of our strength, and our strength is and always has been our freedom. It is the freedom for people to preserve and pass on their cultural traditions and the opportunity to live in peace with those around them; the freedom to live your life with equality under the law, regardless of your race or ethnic background; and the economic freedom that so many governments around the world deny their people. It is that economic freedom that ensures that hard work pays off. It gives people the ability to work towards their dreams and choose their own path in life. Together, generations of Canadians who trace their roots back to countries around the world have built Canada to truly the greatest country on earth, the true north strong and free. To ensure that our people remain free, we must continue to fight attacks on our freedoms, including racism and all forms of brutality and injustice in Canada and around the world. Minority rights must be protected. Freedom of religion must be protected. Freedom of expression and the right to peaceful protest must be protected. As John Diefenbaker said, I am a Canadian...free to speak without fear, free to worship...in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The hon. member for BeloeilChambly.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. George Floyd is not a victim of racism; he is another victim of racism. At a time of crisis when outrage is overwhelming the caution and fear of disease among thousands of people who, despite everything, take to the streets to express that outrage, we here in politics will have to be careful, once again, about the words we use. Indeed we are particularly inclined to give other people's words a meaning other than the one they would have liked to give them. Today, our dutyand I would say almost our only dutyis to express our solidarity, our sadness, our indignation and our anger, but above alland in saying this, I'm thinking of all my friends and acquaintances in the wonderful black community in Quebec and the UnitedStatesour friendship. We must try to be heard by all humans. Every time we talk about this, a small part of me surfaces, that of the non-practising but unrepentant anthropologist who wants to remind us that races do not exist. It is the frequency of manifestations of certain genetic traits favoured by geography and history, which in turn shape cultures. Racism expresses itself first and foremost through aggression against what is presumed to be the culture of others, difference. Each time difference instills fear, it is, of course, one time too many. We must learn to live equality in diversity, in itself an extraordinary thing. Governments in the U.S. have all been racist. Their racism has necessarily been expressed, at some point in their history, in their institutions. It has left its mark. It is the only thing that we have the right to call systemic racism or systemic discrimination. I am concerned when anyone suggests that we are all and collectively inclined to engage in systemic discrimination or when anyone claims to be a bulwark of virtue between us and the victims. I believe that the Canadian government is not racist, that the Quebec government is not racist, and that the governments of our municipalities are not racist either. I believe, however, that there may be traces of horrible things left in our institutions that colour our relationships with people of different origins or with people who were here long before us. So systemic racism probably exists. It should not denounce individuals, but it should encourage us to reread our rules to get rid of what might still be discriminatory in them. This day belongs to GeorgeFloyd. This day belongs to the black people of the UnitedStates. This day belongs to the black people of Quebec and Canada. We don't play politics at the funeral doors: we gather our thoughts, and let indignation and sadness be expressed. We leave the streets to those who need to speak with one voice, in peace. All that is peaceful is legitimate. Nothing that is violent is legitimate. The Prime Minister expressed the desire to implement concrete measures to fight racism. The first must be to show our solidarity and friendship. I'm proposing a very concrete measure, which is to give priority and expedited processing to the files of refugee claimantsespecially Haitian, especially black, but also of other originswho have expressed their desire to be part of the Quebec nation by putting themselves on the front line. He has the power and the duty to do so, and if he needs Parliament, let's do it tomorrow or right now. That way, words will become actions, and the next step will be all the more credible. In the meantime, our duty is to stand up for those who are afraid and against those who frighten them. Thank you, Mr.Chair.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable member for Burnaby South.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Many, many Canadians were shocked to see the violence surrounding the murder of GeorgeFloyd. GeorgeFloyd's murder is a grim reminder that anti-black racism still exists and that it hits hard. Anti-black racism isn't only in the UnitedStates; it's here in Canada, too. Systemic racism against blacks, indigenous people and many other visible minorities is alive and well: racial profiling, economic inequality, social inequality, discriminatory hiring, trivialization of violence, excess incarceration, and so on. Things aren't moving forward because one government after another prefers pretty words to concrete action. When the time comes to act, they don't have the courage, they don't have the will to act. People are feeling a lot of grief and frustration, but we can turn that into action and justice. We must not just call for peace. I believe that we have to call for justice. Justice is the only way to create a better world. When people around the world saw the killing of George Floyd, it left all of us shaken to our core. It was chilling, the casual violence of anti-black racism, the callous taking of another human being's life. It hurt to the core. There was pain. There was sadness. There is anger, and rightly so. There is frustration. This isn't just an American problem. This is just as much a Canadian problem as well, and something that continues to exist across our country. Anti-black racism and anti-indigenous racism are real. People have suffered violence. Indigenous people and black people have suffered violence and have been killed at the hands of police here in Canada. I think about Regis Korchinski-Paquet in Toronto and the calls for justice for Regis. A black trans woman was killed in suspicious circumstances in an interaction with the police. I think about Stewart Kevin Andrews, a young indigenous man killed in an interaction with the police in Winnipeg. The anger and frustration are about this: How many more people need to die before there's action? How many more speeches will be made? How many more protests need to happen before something is done? How many more times will people plead to breathe? How many more times will they plead to live? What we're talking about is basic human dignity. How many more voices have to ask, demand, plead, beg for basic human dignity? People are angry. They're feeling like enough is enough. Why do they need to keep on asking? Why do black people, why do indigenous people need to keep on asking to be treated like humans? Why? You know, people are done with pretty speeches, particularly pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now if they wanted to. I'm standing in a hall of power, the chamber of the Commons, with a Prime Minister who has the power not just to say pretty words but to actually do something about this. The Prime Minister of this country has the power to go beyond pretty words and pretty speeches and do something. I don't have all the answers. I don't think any one person does. We're going to have to come up with those solutions together, but there are certainly some things we do know. Martin Luther King said, True peace is not merely the absence of tension; it is the presence of justice. That's what we need. We need justice. Killer Mike extolled that people should plan, plot, strategize, organize and then mobilize. Cardi B put it this way: Another way for the people to take powerI don't want to make everything political but it is what it isis by voting. So what do we vote for? We vote for a government to take action. I call on the Prime Minister, in this hall of power: If the Prime Minister believes that black lives matter, will the Prime Minister commit to ending racial profiling in our country? If the Prime Minister believes that black lives matter, will the Prime Minister commit to ending the over-policing of black bodies? If the Prime Minister believes, truly believes, that black lives matter, will the Prime Minister commit to ending the over-incarceration of black people in this country? If the Prime Minister truly believes that black lives matter, will he commit to ensuring that there are race-based data to make better decisions? Will he commit to ensuring that there's access to education and to health resources? The Prime Minister has the power to do all these things right now. The Prime Minister simply needs to get it done. If the Prime Minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter, then similarly the Prime Minister must commit today to ending the racial profiling of indigenous people, the over-policing of indigenous people and the over-incarceration of indigenous people. If the Prime Minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter, the Prime Minister could stop taking indigenous kids to court; the Prime Minister could stop delaying the action on the calls for justice for the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls. If the Prime Minister believes that indigenous lives matter, he could ensure that there's clean drinking water and access to justice and to education and housing right now. People are angry because they are frustrated and done with pretty words. People are angry because they're done with pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now. People don't want peace. They don't want an absence of tension. People want the presence of justice. People want justice. People deserve justice. People need justice, and justice is what people will get. Nothing less will do. Thank you.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable member for SaanichGulf Islands
Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is indeed a difficult day. It's a difficult week. These have been difficult weeks. I stand here and want to begin by acknowledging that we are all on the traditional territory of the Algonquin peoples, and again to say meegwetch, on a day like this when we're focusing on something so painful that really is beyond partisanship and that should bind us together as people who say we cannot tolerate racism, not in this country. But we know it's here. As the Prime Minister just said, Racism never has a place in this country. But we know it's here and we know it's living with us. We are facing, in this pandemic, two dangerous, invisible viruses. One is COVID-19 and the other one we've tolerated far too long, which is race-based hatred, hate speech and anti-black racism. Yes, black lives matter. I want to do nothing but just chant it in this place until we all stand together and say, Black lives matter. What we are seeing in the murder of George Floyd is exactly as my colleague from the Bloc Qubcois said: George Floyd is not a victim of racism; he is another victim of racism. There is victim upon victim upon victim. These victims have names. We must not forget their names. The first time a black man was killed when his last words were I can't breathe was in 2014, with Eric Garner. His mother did interviews this week. Imagine what she's going through, because George Floyd died on video also saying, I can't breathe, and the people who were stopping him from breathing, his killers, are the police. In the case of Eric Garner, the policemen were fired but never charged. In George Floyd's murder, at least one killer has been charged, but it doesn't do anything to ease the pain, nor, as my friend from the NDP said, does it quench the thirst for justice, because that's what people are crying out for. They're crying out for justice. The names just keep cascading. I had to look it up because I thought, when was it that the poor young man who was jogging was murdered by the father and son in the pickup truck? He was murdered by a retired policeman and his son in their pickup truck, in February. Breonna Taylor of Louisville was murdered in her own home by cops who thought she might have drugs there. They searched, and she didn't. What on earth allows this to keep happening over and over again? I looked at a site called Just Security and I thought these words from reporter Mia Bloom, who happens to be Canadian, were pretty clear on what puts you at risk of death in the United States of America, but also in Canada: driving while black, jogging while black, reporting while black, bird watching while black, selling lemonade while black can get you killed. The killers far too often are wearing a uniform. I want to go back to the words reporting while black, because this is something else we've seen in the last four days that we've never seen before, which is the deliberate targeting of reporters by police. Over 100 reporters have been injured in the United States in the last four days. One woman lost her eye. These are serious injuries. Sometimes reporters get in the way of riots and whatnot, but this is different. This is another element altogether. It seems that, in this place, when we have speeches and pretty words to denounce racism, we do it in a kind of cycle. After Colten Boushie's murder, we talked about anti-indigenous racism. We talked about the threat to our indigenous brothers and sisters across this country who also face racism on a daily basis. We talked about the fact that they are disproportionately in our prisons. Just within the last day, the report came down on the killing of Dale Culver in Prince George at the hands of the Prince George RCMP. This indigenous young man was 35 years old, and he was pepper-sprayed until he couldn't breathe. There will be charges in this case. That's the recommendation that just came down. We go through sequential moments where we can say Islamophobia is not okay. Six Muslims at prayer in Quebec City were murdered. We can all stand up and say we denounce Islamophobia. Or we can denounce anti-trans violence against individual trans people who are murdered. We denounce anti-Semitism when we see anti-Semitic graffiti scrawled on the door of an Ottawa rabbi's home. We denounce it, but can we get to the root of it? As the honourable leader of the Conservative Party mentioned, in recent days we're seeing anti-Asian racism on the increase. We're seeing all this happen and we want to be good allies. We want to be a good ally to the family of Regis Korchinski-Paquet. We want to be a good ally. I am a woman of privilege. I got it by mere random accident of birth. I was born to white parents. Privilege is being white. We have to study our privilege. We have to acknowledge our privilege and we have to know, as the Prime Minister said, we're not perfect, but it doesn't give us a free pass to ignore that we have to stand up and we have to speak out. I am sitting so close to my friend here, our minister, Ahmed HussenI say your name out loud, but your tweets brought me to tearsthat this fine man faces racism in his own riding, that his three beautiful black boys have people turn away or clutch their purse or they're a little worried when the kids are around. It sounds exactly like what the Prime Minister just called the microaggressions that many of us might not even see. We can look at our own conduct and our own behaviour. In looking at these things, there is something I want to say, when we look at all these things that are happening and we wonder, what we can do about it. When we see a bully, when we hear hate speech, we have to speak up. We have to speak out and we have to say that the President of the United States is fomenting hatred and violence and it's shameful and shocking that he would grab a Bible, then use tear gas to clear peaceful protestors on a Washington street so that Donald Trump could pose with a Bible in front of an Episcopal church. The Episcopal Bishop of Washington had this to say, because she is a good ally: In no way do we support the President's incendiary response to a wounded, grieving nation. In faithfulness to our Saviour who lived a life of non-violence and sacrificial love, we align ourselves with those seeking justice for the death of George Floyd. That's what we must do in this place. We must acknowledge and speak up for justice for the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, the report on which languishes a year later. We must stand up for justice and we must examine something very worrying. In 2006, the U.S. FBI warned that white supremacist groups were targeting police forces and joining them. If we're looking for real action, things we can do in this place, I call on us to have an inquiry and an examination to root out white supremacist groups in Canada and identify them for what they are, a terrorist threat in our midst. We must make sure they're not in our police forces, because if there is one thing scarier than a white supremacist with a gun, it's a white supremacist with a gun in uniform. Please, God, there are things we can do. Please, God, we love each other, take care of each other regardless of the colour of our skin, and pray for the United States of America. It's a country being ripped apart, and the ripping and the tearing is being done by people who should at this very time be consoling and leading and inspiring. Pray. Pray for Canada. Pray for each and every one of our beautiful black baby girls and boys, the indigenous baby girls and boys, the Asian kids. Wherever you look, reach out and be a good ally. Stand up and say, With my body I get between you and the cops. We have to be good allies. Right now, they're just pretty words. Thank you for listening.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15minutes. I'd like to remind honourable members that any petition presented during the meeting of this special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented. The honourable member for NanaimoLadysmith, Mr. Manly.
Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP): Mr. Chair, it's difficult to follow that set of speeches. I have a petition on a serious issue dealing with plastic pollution. It creates a major impact on aquatic life but also on human health. It's estimated that 74,000 to 121,000 microplastic particles are ingested per person every year. A recent study shows that each washing cycle 120,000 to 730,000 microfibres are shed from clothes and go directly into waste water. Many of these microfibres are synthetic and therefore are microplastics. Washing machine discharge filters are currently available on the market and greatly reduce the amount of microfibres being released into waste water and thus the environment. This petition is calling on the government to legislate the requirement for all new washing machines to have discharge filters as of 2021 and to provide incentives to all residents of Canada to install discharge filters on current washing machines.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Presenting petitions, the hon. member for Peace RiverWestlock.
Mr. Arnold Viersen (Peace RiverWestlock, CPC): Mr. Chair, I rise to table a petition signed by Canadians who are concerned about Bill C-7. Given what we've seen in assisted living homes in this country and the devastation particularly in Ontario and Quebec, the petitioners are asking for the government to look into assisted living, not assisted dying.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Presenting petitions, the hon. member for SaanichGulf Islands.
Ms. Elizabeth May: Mr. Chair, it's an honour to rise to present a petition today from a number of constituents calling for the government to act to uphold the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action. There is a call to respect the Wet'suwet'en territory and to dismantle RCMP exclusion zones. This petition came some time ago. Some of these issues have been dealt with. I am particularly pleased to note that the nation-to-nation talks called for by petitioners between the Wet'suwet'en and the federal and provincial governments have taken place. I will take this moment if I may to thank the honourable ministers involved in that effort. Thank you.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): That will conclude the presenting of petitions. I would ask members who have presented petitions here in person in the House if they would be so kind as to bring their petitions to the table. That would be most appreciated. We'll now go to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would remind members to do their best to keep their member statement to a maximum of one minute. We'll start statements by members with Mr. Weiler, the member for West VancouverSunshine CoastSea to Sky Country.
Mr. Patrick Weiler (West VancouverSunshine CoastSea to Sky Country, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I continue to be amazed by how the communities throughout my riding have stepped up to support our most vulnerable at our time of crisis. In many ways it has brought our communities closer together even while we stay physically distant. Nowhere is this more true than on the Sunshine Coast. Dedicated individuals immediately and organically mobilized the Sunshine Coast community task force to coordinate local government, non-profit and business efforts to provide critical services to the community. Social enterprises banded together to form the Sunshine Coast food service response, which provides ready-made meals and donates to food banks. Persephone Brewing and others deliver groceries to at-risk customers both on the coast and on isolated islands. The 101 Brewhouse + Distillery and Bruinwood Distillery quickly retooled their business to supply much-needed hand sanitizer to local hospitals and other front-line workers. COVID-19, like all crises, has highlighted true leadership in our society, and I am grateful for what they and all of our health care workers do every day to get us through this.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The hon. member for Medicine HatCardstonWarner, Mr. Motz.
Mr. Glen Motz (Medicine HatCardstonWarner, CPC): Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister and his cabinet have shown they're unwilling to put the protection and safety of Canadians ahead of political interests. They themselves are the greatest source of disinformation in this country. The Prime Minister told Canadians that they can buy a gun without a licence. Either purposely or because of ignorance, he left out the fact that doing so is a criminal offence with a five-year prison sentence. The Minister of Public Safety said he wouldn't target hunters, but then he went ahead and banned numerous bolt-action hunting rifles and made owning a shotgun a criminal offence. They have weakened the ability to protect our borders. They have ignored our rampant drug crisis, and they have weakened sentences for serious crimes, all while saying they take these issues very seriously. Today they tell us they are banning a new Liberal-invented type of firearm, a military-style assault rifle. It's time to be honest with Canadians. The Liberals would rather make people afraid of hunters, farmers and sport shooters than deal with the real issues like drugs, gangs, illegal smuggling and crime.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to Ms. Sgro, the hon. member for Humber RiverBlack Creek.
Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber RiverBlack Creek, Lib.): Mr. Chair, it is in our most difficult moments when we truly see stunning displays of human spirit and generosity. On that note, today I wish to recognize the work of the Humber River Hospital in my riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek and to congratulate them on the success of their Humber front-line support fund and PPE drive. Not only have they been on the front lines of the COVID-19 pandemic keeping our residents safe and healthy, but thanks to the generosity of those both in my riding and beyond, the Humber River Hospital has raised over $1 million and received over 400,000 pieces of personal protective equipment. This will be invaluable to the hospital as they continue to work with us and fight the good fight to keep us all healthy. I thank all those brave workers at the hospital, and I thank those generous individuals who have donated to this important cause.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): I now invite the hon. member for AbitibiTmiscamingue, Mr.Lemire, to take the floor.
Mr. Sbastien Lemire (AbitibiTmiscamingue, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I am honoured to speak to you about a proud warrior. StephanLavoie had made the choice to say thank you to life. For several years, he had been using his fight against cancer, which he led with the help of natural products only, to ensure cancer services and care were improved, particularly in regions far from major centres. Mayor of Preissac, in the RCM of Abitibi, StephanLavoie passed away yesterday. I would like to extend my condolences to his wife, Anabelle, to his entire family and especially to his daughter, Astrid, who is only 20months old. Through his humanism, StephanLavoie was a warrior, a visionary and a great source of inspiration for all of us. To me, he was above all the perfect model of a committed and loving father. My thoughts also go out to the citizens of Preissac, to whom he leaves a dynamic legacy, and to the leaders of the Abitibi community. In our first conversation, he said to me, and I hope the House will echo it forever, that all of our decisions must be made with our children in mind. Stephan, rest in peace, dear friend.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The hon. member for MontRoyal, Mr.Housefather, has the floor.
Mr. Anthony Housefather (Mount Royal, Lib.): It is with great sadness that I rise today to pay tribute to Tristan Roy, after his tragic passing exactly two weeks ago. Born in Saint-Fabien-sur-Mer, Tristan became a pillar of the MontRoyal community in1997 when he bought the old MontRoyal newspaper. When the city's oldest newspaper, the TMR Weekly Post ceased operations, Tristan registered the name and renamed his newspaper the TMR Poste de Mont-Royal. He created a truly bilingual newspaper, ensuring that TMR residents could receive their news in both French and English. His editorials and views on local issues carried enormous weight. I join Mayor Philippe Roy and the members of the town council in offering our sincere condolences to Tristan's wife, Anne-Marie, his daughter, Aril, and his son, Lancelot. We all considered Tristan to be a friend, an example of what a good journalist and editor should be and could be. He will be sorely missed.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The hon. member for Beauce, Mr.Lehoux, has the floor.
Mr. Richard Lehoux (Beauce, CPC): Mr.Chair, if you didn't already know, people from Beauce are proud. There is Marie-PhilipPoulin of Beauceville, who was named the best female hockey player in the world earlier this year, or AntonyAuclair of Notre-Dame-des-Pins. AntonyAuclair said, in a CBC article, that Beauce had prepared him for his arrival in the NFL. There is also GuillaumeCouture, from Sainte-Marie, who made his mother very proud, and everyone from Beauce indirectly, on the program Les Chefs again last night. It is this same pride that I see throughout the region, with companies like Revtech Systmes, in Saint-Joseph-de-Beauce, or PuriHaze, in Sainte-Marie, which have invented robots to decontaminate spaces. There are also local purchasing initiatives such as the #onlaici campaign by the Nouvelle-Beauce chamber of commerce and industry or Achetons beauceron, by the Saint-Georges chamber of commerce. Today I have but two words for my constituents: thank you. I thank them for continuing to encourage local businesses that greatly need it. I thank them for being loyal to their habits and to rolling up their sleeves to help their neighbours. I thank them for being proud and being residents of Beauce.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll go now to the member for Don Valley East, Ms. Ratansi.
Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.): Mr. Chair, our government has shown leadership during the COVID-19 pandemic by ensuring that Canadians remain safe and get the financial assistance they need. Eight million Canadians are receiving the Canada emergency response benefit. The Canada emergency business account and the Canada emergency wage subsidy ensure that the economy is ready to start up post-pandemic. Seniors received top-ups to the OAS and GIS, and families, the child care benefit. All of these measures are helping thousands of seniors and low-income families in my riding of Don Valley East. The feedback from my regular virtual town halls has also helped to fine-tune many of the programs. Many Canadians have shown generosity during this crisis. I want to particularly thank Saravanaa Bhavan and Happy Pops for donating food and frozen treats to our superhero front-line workers at local hospitals.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to the honourable member for VaughanWoodbridge, Mr. Sorbara.
Mr. Francesco Sorbara (VaughanWoodbridge, Lib.): Mr. Chair, even though this year's festivities for Italian Heritage Month will be done differently, the same spirit and vitality exists throughout virtual events happening across the country. Virtual events have seen Italian Canadians, through their generosity, raise over $1 million to help Italy during COVID-19. Today, June 2, Italian citizens celebrate the founding of the modern day Italian Republic. The Italian Canadian story remains one of passion, an adopted homeland filled with hard work, sacrifice and optimism. Generations of Italian Canadians have contributed much to shaping the inclusive and generous Canada that we know today. Our diversity is our strength, and I'm proud to be Italian Canadian. Let's all join together in proudly celebrating Italian Heritage Month. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to the honourable member for Calgary Skyview, Ms. Sahota.
Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC): Mr. Chair, as communities begin to ease restrictions, I remain mystified that, according to this government, Parliament is not an essential service. If it were up to the Prime Minister, he would not have to answer to anyone. That is not how democracy works. We in the opposition have been long calling for the return of Parliament, which would be possible while still maintaining public health guidelines. Canadians deserve to be represented in the House of Commons by the elected member of Parliament. While the work we do in our constituencies is incredibly important, it is equally important to bring those voices back to Ottawa to debate, to question and to hold the government to account. This is fundamental to the role of an elected representative. The role of the opposition is crucial now more than ever when billions of dollars are being spent with little oversight. Our role as members of Parliament is to uphold our democracy and to be present. This is the greatest pandemic in our lifetime. Now is not the time to hide behind a podium. If this government were doing the best job for Canadians, they would not need to hide. Thank you.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to the honourable member for Brampton East, Mr. Sidhu.
Mr. Maninder Sidhu (Brampton East, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I would like to take a moment to highlight displays of generosity in my riding of Brampton East. This is just a small sample of the many individuals and organizations that have stepped up across Canada. Khalsa Aid has been providing food supplies with the help of Sperenza Banquet Hall, which has graciously provided the space to run a province-wide campaign out of Brampton East. Care4Cause has sent hundreds of prepared meals on a weekly basis to Good Shepherd Ministries to lessen their load. Navraj Brar at Pharmasave has offered free care packages to health care workers and hand sanitizer to the Peel Regional Police. Aujla Salon and Spa has partnered with GlobalMedic to help deliver over 10,000 pounds of food to local food banks. I would also like to point out the heroic efforts of our truck drivers, taxi drivers, grocery store clerks, nurses, doctors, paramedics and countless other front-line heroes. We see you and we are immensely grateful for the bravery you display each and every day. Thank you to everyone in Brampton East who has stepped up for their neighbour in their time of need. You are setting a great example of the kind of progress we can make as Canadians when we come together and support each other. I am truly honoured to represent you in Ottawa.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to the honourable member for WellingtonHalton Hills, Mr. Chong.
Hon. Michael Chong (WellingtonHalton Hills, CPC): Mr. Chair, the House of Commons is shut down. Let's be clear. This is not the House of Commons. It's a committee where only statements, petitions and questions are allowed. There is no power to introduce motions, to test confidence or to vote. The government came to office promising greater democracy but they broke their promise on electoral reform. They tried to give the PMO the control over this House in motion 6, and yesterday's report confirms that they rigged the leaders debate in their favour in the last election. Now they've shuttered Parliament. Parliament sat through two world wars, the October crisis and previous pandemics and it survived the test, but not now. The people's representatives need to sit. People need their representation. Parliament and this House of Commons with its full powers needs to reopen and it needs to reopen now.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable member for ReginaQu'Appelle.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, these past few months have been tremendously difficult for so many Canadians: sickness, losing loved ones, job losses, economic hardships, loneliness and isolation. The pandemic has taken its toll on so many. It is in these times of suffering and adversity that we have seen Canadians coming together to support each other and that brings us hope. Mosques, churches, synagogues and gurdwaras have all answered the call to help their communities. Whether it's providing meals to the hungry, clothing for the cold, or technology for those who need it most, these actions are true reflections of the kindness and generosity that Canadians are known for. While there are too many groups to mention them all, I want to thank Vikas Sharma and Care4Cause out of Brampton for the meals that they have been providing their community in that area and across the GTA. This group and thousands of others like it across the country are working tirelessly to ease the suffering of others and help those in need. Thank you, and God bless all the volunteers.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Now we will go to the honourable member for Winnipeg Centre. Ms. Gazan, go ahead.
Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Chair, I rise today in honour of National Indigenous History Month to speak truth about a history of racism in Canada that was built on the wrongful dispossession of lands from indigenous people and controlled through the use of police-state violence that has resulted in a loss of life, freedom, respect and dignity. Even today we continue to observe this reality in my very own city where we witnessed the killing of three indigenous youth by police in a span of 10 days this past April. This is not a coincidence. We have statistics. We have research, and we have stories of loved ones lost. We know it, and we see it in our lives every day. We need to address police violence throughout this country. Canadians are rising from coast to coast demanding this of all of us and sending a clear message that we must address systemic racism in all of its forms to ensure justice for all. There will never be reconciliation in the absence of justice.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The hon. member for BeauportLimoilou, Mrs.Vignola, has the floor.
Mrs. Julie Vignola (BeauportLimoilou, BQ): Mr.Chair, Canada Post is literally not delivering the goods. But the postal service is an essential service, and even more so today because everything is done online, even local shopping. The current crisis partly explains the congestion, but it is mainly due to the fact that Canada Post forgot to join the 21stcentury. It has been left behind where others have made millions of dollars. Its platform isn't effective. It's now delivering more parcels, but it's losing money. There's a statement to make here, right now. In the immediate term, Canada Post must deal with the delays, and to do so, it needs the help of the Government of Canada. Canada Post needs to hire staff. If a collective agreement had finally been signed, it would make it easier to hire staff. We have been waiting for two and a half years. A premium for essential workers might also be appropriate. As I said, the postal service is an essential service, and it's time to give it the importance this status imposes.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now go to the honourable member for Calgary Centre. Mr. McLean, go ahead.
Mr. Greg McLean (Calgary Centre, CPC): Mr. Chair, the prospects in Canada's oil fields are bleak in the near term. Capital spending forecasts and drilling activities sank to a 49-year low. This is a result of the temporary collapse in demand for our most valuable commodity and the one that contributes the most to our GDP, our balance of trade, and whose taxes support the social programs Canadians enjoy, $108 billion in GDP, $8 billion per year in government revenues, $77 billion in trade surplus. It is a rude blow to hard-working professionals who soldier past negligent government policies that have left a stain on another generation of western Canadians. We're talking about an industry here that directly employs over 200,000, including 11,000 indigenous Canadians. We're talking about an industry that contributes 75% of Canada's investment in clean technology. However, Canada's resource industry will still be resilient. Bad policy cannot permanently erase the work, the hope and the pride of forward thinkers and doers, and their efforts to continue building a great country. Thank you.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now go to the honourable member for Winnipeg South. Mr. Duguid, go ahead.
Mr. Terry Duguid (Winnipeg South, Lib.): Mr. Chair, today I want to give a special thank you to the health care workers at Victoria General Hospital, who are serving patients in our community here in Winnipeg South. Every day, doctors, nurses and staff work selflessly to take care of those in our community who need it most. Whether it's by keeping seniors connected with their families by using iPads or making sure that patients go home with a special care package, staff at the Vic are doing extraordinary work to make this difficult time just a little bit easier. I would also like to give a big shout-out to our wonderful small businesses in Winnipeg South that continue to show their appreciation by preparing meals for the hard-working staff at the Vic. Folks in our community continue to show what it means to be exemplary Canadians, and it is a great honour to represent them.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): This concludes the period for statements by members. We will now proceed to the questioning of ministers. The honourable Leader of the Opposition.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr.Chair, the staff of long-term care facilities for seniors are showing exceptional courage and dedication. FranoisLegault asked that the military personnel currently helping in facilities in Quebec stay until the fall. The Prime Minister said no. I'd like to hear the Prime Minister tell us why they can't stay.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, like all Canadians, I am deeply grateful for the extraordinary work that the Canadian Armed Forces are doing in long-term care facilities in Quebec and Ontario. Thanks to their reports, we've seen that the situation was even worse than we feared. The work our military is doing is extraordinary. We will continue to support them, but we know that having military personnel in our long-term care facilities isn't a long-term solution. Therefore, we are going to work with Quebec to find better long-term solutions.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, now that Bell Canada has decided to partner with Ericsson to deliver its 5G network, the Liberals will undoubtedly ban Huawei, but the Liberal inaction on Huawei is just another example of this government's weak leadership. Instead of deciding for himself a year ago, the Prime Minister is forcing the business community to make the decision for him. Why couldn't the Prime Minister have shown some backbone and banned Huawei a year ago?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, our approach every step of the way has been to listen to experts, to work with allies and to listen to the counsel of our security and intelligence community, which has been looking into this issue. We know we need to make sure that Canadian businesses, Canadians and Canadian infrastructure are protected at the same time as we remain competitive in the world. That has guided our approach on this from the beginning.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: The fact of the matter, Mr Chair, is that it hasn't. The former public safety minister, Ralph Goodale, promised in this House over a year ago that an answer on Huawei would be coming. Here we are, it's June 2, 2020, and they still haven't made a decision. On another topic, Mr. Chair, the President of the Treasury Board wrote to cabinet last week and said that transparency is important even in a time of crisis. I guess the Minister of Infrastructure didn't get that letter. She's refusing to tell us how much of a bonus she gave to the departing head of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. At a time when Canadians are struggling, it is disgusting that the Liberals are paying out bonuses to someone who accomplished nothing. Will the Prime Minister have a little respect for taxpayers and tell us exactly how much of a bonus the CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank received?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, the mandate of the Canada Infrastructure Bank is to find innovative ways to finance some of Canada's biggest infrastructure projects by leveraging private capital. The remuneration range of the former CEO has been in the public domain for more than two years. The opposition is looking backward. We're moving forward. The bank is moving into its next phase of development, now under the leadership of the new board chair, Michael Sabia, and will play an important role in the recovery when the time comes.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, only to a Liberal would an innovative approach to building infrastructure mean building absolutely nothing. The CEO of an infrastructure bank who accomplished zero completed infrastructure projects should not be receiving a bonus. I didn't ask a question about the remuneration. I didn't ask a question about the salary. This individual received a bonus. How much was that bonus?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, as I said, the remuneration range of this former CEO has been in the public domain for more than two years. In regard to further payments, we do not comment on personal HR and financial information of individuals in government.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, again, I did not ask about the remuneration. I asked about the bonus. The Canada Infrastructure Bank was a Liberal scheme designed to protect the investments of private investors and put all the risk onto taxpayers. Even with that model, do you know how many projects they completed? Zero. Yet, the individual in charge of that received a bonus from the Prime Minister. Apparently, to the Liberals, he was doing a good job. They might try to claim that it's arm's length and that they can't divulge this information, but we know that Minister Champagne personally intervened in the decision regarding the bonus of the Canada Infrastructure Bank's CEO. It's a simple question. How much did that individual receive?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, five years ago, when we first got elected, we had to turn around the underinvestment that Stephen Harper's Conservatives had made in infrastructure across the country. Even during the depths of the 2008 recession, the investments they made were for things like doorknobs and signs. They went into debt and didn't have anything to show for it. We're going to continue to move forward on historic investments in infrastructure to build up this country. We're using innovative means like the infrastructure bank to do that.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable member for BeloeilChambly has the floor.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Mr.Chair, well before 1867, in what became Quebec, in New Brunswick, in Acadia, in Ontario and in the west, lay the seeds of what later became the provinces of Canada and Quebec. It can therefore be inferred that Canada is a creature of the provinces and that the provinces are not creatures of Canada. Could the Prime Minister read his answer to this question: who pays for the health transfers to the provinces?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, we have a country with a number of levels of government working together to serve Canadians. In times of crisis, but also in good times, Canadians expect that their governments will work together to provide the services and the care that they need. That is exactly what we are doing.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Let me remind the Prime Minister that all the provinces and Quebec are asking for increased and recurring health transfers that are unconditional and sustainable. Who pays for the all-too-meagre benefits made available to the seniors of Quebec and Canada?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, we have worked with Quebec and the other provinces to make sure that we invest in health transfers. We have made transfers of $500million, that's halfabillion dollars, because of the recent COVID-19 crisis. We will continue to work with the provinces in the long term. But, for the moment, we are working on the emergency situation in which we find ourselves.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Mr.Chair, the Conservatives have backtracked on the wage subsidy, and I congratulate them for that. Who pays for the part of the wage subsidy program that will be going into the coffers of the Liberal Party of Canada?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, since this crisis began, we have made investments to protect jobs and workers, including accountants, human resources managers and receptionists. We are in the process of ensuring that people with all kinds of jobs in all kinds of organizations will be able to keep those jobs.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Mr.Chair, it is comforting to know that they are a little richer now, but some companies are under threat because the Liberal Party is a little richer. Who is going to pay for the fact that one company has been chosen by a closed call for tender? One company has been awarded a private contract, probably a foreign multinational, probably for 2021, while we are perfectly capable of doing the work in Quebec and in Canada. Who is going to pay for this gift to a private company that will be doing the Government of Canada's work?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, we are in a crisis. We are in the process of helping workers and helping Canadians by means of measures like the Canada emergency response benefit, the Canada emergency wage subsidy and with the assistance to companies, We will continue to do what we must do to help workers all across the country so that we can come out of this crisis together.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Fundamentally, my impression was that, in a crisis, civil society turns to the state to find and implement solutions. I see that, in this case, and in all its operations, the Government of Canada takes money, about 20% of which comes from Quebec, and gives it to a private company, possibly a foreign company, so that it can tell us what will happen, although the first wave will have come and gone for a year already. Is the Prime Minister telling us that he is incapable of doing his job?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, Canadians expect their government to look after their health and the health of the economy. That is exactly what we are doing. We are here for workers, we are here for families, we are here for our seniors and for our students. We will continue to be here throughout this pandemic and as the economy reopens. That is what Canadians expect of us and we will meet their expectations.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr.Blanchet, you have about 40seconds left.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Mr.Chair, as I see it, the Prime Minister is contracting out his job with taxpayers' money, a part of which is going into his party's bank account for the next election. Is that the only explanation of his role he has for the residents of Quebec, a role that is currently protected by a crisis?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, all across the country, including in Quebec, people are worried about their jobs because of the crisis that the pandemic is causing. We are providing a wage subsidy to organizations and to companies to ensure that people will receive their paycheques in order to support their families and pay their rent. That is what people expected from this government as a priority.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now go to the honourable member for Burnaby South, Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, people are fed up with pretty words from people in power. The Prime Minister has the power to do something about the anti-black racism that Canada is faced with. Will the Prime Minister end racial profiling in Canada against black people once and for all?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, this government was the first government to recognize anti-black racism, systemic discrimination and unconscious bias and to take concrete actions against them in the context of the UN International Decade for People of African Descent but also in the context of a country that stands up for human rights and protects everyone. We have made significant steps forward, but there is so much to do, and I look forward to working with all members in this House to do just that.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: I did not hear an answer. Will the Prime Minister end the racial profiling of black people in Canada?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, our justice system unfairly targets in many situations racialized Canadians, including indigenous Canadians and black Canadians. We know we need to improve our justice system and rates of incarceration and we will work on it.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Will the Prime Minister end the over-policing and over-incarceration of black and indigenous people?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, systemic discrimination means that people of colour are at greater risk of being incarcerated than others when facing negative outcomes in the justice system. We know we need to work on all the determinants of that. We will work as a country together.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Will the Prime Minister make sure Canada is collecting disaggregated data on the impacts of COVID-19 on racialized people, particularly indigenous and black people?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, not just on COVID-19 but on all ranges of data, we've made investments over the past years to Statistics Canada so that they are better able to collect data in a disaggregated fashion. We need to know what is happening within vulnerable communities. Disaggregated data will help, and we're working with provinces on the COVID-19 data.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: We know people are frustrated with anti-black racism. People are also incredibly frustrated with anti-indigenous racism. Will the Prime Minister commit to ending the over-incarceration, over-policing and racial profiling of indigenous people?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, I referred to that in an earlier answer. Yes, we need to work to ensure that the rates of incarceration for indigenous people and for racialized Canadians are reduced. There are many measures we're working on to move forward to make our justice system fairer, to reduce systemic discrimination and eventually to eliminate it.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Here are two specific things we can do. I asked the Prime Minister if he will commit to stop taking indigenous kids to court, and if he will stop delaying the response to the murdered and missing indigenous women and girls calls for justice.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, tomorrow is the anniversary of the end of the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls inquiry. We have been working over the past year with partners on the ground to formulate the measures and the response that needs to move forward. Many of those partners over the past months have been engaged in keeping their communities safe and working hard on that, and that has delayed the putting out of the report.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Will the Prime Minister stop taking indigenous kids to court when it comes to indigenous child welfare?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, we agree that we need to compensate kids and indigenous peoples who have suffered harm at the hands of our child and family services over the past decades and we will do that.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Will the Prime Minister commit to not just pretty words but real action ensuring that all indigenous communities have access to clean drinking water?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, the NDP needs to know that we have eliminated over 80 long-term boil water advisories through our work over the past years, and we are on track to eliminating all of them on time by next spring. This is something we committed to Canadians and we are doing.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): You have 30 seconds left, Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister needs to speak to indigenous communities who talk of a completely different reality. They do not have access to clean drinking water, and communities are going off the list only to return back on to the list of boil water advisories. Will the Prime Minister commit to ensuring all indigenous communities have clean drinking water?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, that was a commitment we made to Canadians and a commitment we are keeping. The member opposite continues to talk as if there has been no progress made. There has been significant progress made. We are on track to eliminating those boil water advisories. It would be great if the members opposite talked about some good news instead of just highlighting the very real problems that are there. There is good news and there is challenging news. We are working on those together.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to the honourable member for Carleton, Mr. Poilievre.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre (Carleton, CPC): Mr. Chair, what share of Canada's national debt is owed to foreign lenders?
Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance): Mr. Chair, we continue to manage our fiscal situation in a responsible manner, and we'll continue to do that.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: How much does the Government of Canada owe to the People's Republic of China?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we would be happy to provide information. If the member would like to send my office questions directly, I'd be happy to provide this information.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: It turns out I did a week ago. They still haven't provided answers to the questions, in particular the question regarding who owns Canada's foreign-held debt. We know that roughly a third of our debt is owned by foreigners. How much of that debt is owned by lenders from the People's Republic of China?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, as I said, we'd be happy to reply to these questions directly. We'll do so. We'll get to it in order, as we work through this crisis, making sure we focus on Canadians first.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: How much is owned by lenders from Saudi Arabia?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Again, Mr. Chair, we'd be happy to provide information in this regard should the member wish to send a request directly to my office.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Which I have. Mr. Chair, moving along to the impacts of the debt on our people, how much would a 1% increase in the effective interest rate on Canada's national debt cost Canadian taxpayers?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we continue to manage our treasury function responsibly. I'd be happy to get financial calculations to the member if he'd like to send those directly to my office.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: All right, Mr. Chair, we'll try a different question, then, as we're not getting any answers. We have lower interest rates than ever before. Normally, it means you lock in those rates for the long run. Anybody who has a mortgage knows you lock in for the long run when rates are low. What percentage of Canada's national debt is locked in for more than five years?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I'd be happy to get this information to the member, but I would acknowledge that as we manage the treasury function for the Government of Canada, we look at the short term, the medium term and the long term. We think we have come up with a responsible approach to managing the ongoing debt that we have as a country.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Mr. Chair, it turns out, according to Department of Finance officials, that less than 3% of Canada's recently added debt since March is for terms of more than five years. Why has this minister made Canada so susceptible to future interest rate hikes by failing to lock in the $371.5 billion of new debt he's added in the last two and a half months?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we continue to manage the treasury function of the Government of Canada in a responsible way, making sure we consider what debt should be issued in a short term, a medium term and a long term, which we've been doing as the Government of Canada during our entire term and as previous governments have done as well.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Canadians would be wise not to hire this minister as their mortgage broker if they're looking to get the best rate. Let's move on to the Canadian household. The average household was $200 away from insolvency before this crisis began. How many Canadians would experience bankruptcy in the next 12 months if interest rates were to rise by an effective one percentage point?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, again, we'd be happy to get calculations to the member. I would make the observation that what we've been working to do during the course of this pandemic is to support Canadians and support Canadian families by providing them income during a time when they don't have access to income because they're actually at home. We think that has supported them in a very, very positive way that allows us to ensure that we will have a continuing economy when we get through this crisis.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): You have 30 seconds left, Mr. Poilievre. Go ahead.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Unfortunately, we will have a $1-trillion debt when this fiscal year comes to an end. How much will the finance minister try to raise taxes if interest rates on that debt rise by, say, 1%?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, as I've said to the House previously, we do not intend to raise taxes. What the member opposite is suggesting is that we shouldn't be investing to support Canadians. I think the approach we've taken, with the emergency response benefit and the wage subsidy, has been particularly critical for enabling Canadians to get through a very challenging time.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The floor goes to the honourable member for Beauce, Mr.Lehoux.
Mr. Richard Lehoux: Mr.Chair, my question goes to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food. Day after day, I speak with those involved in the world of agriculture and with witnesses appearing before the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food. The consensus is very clear: the business risk management programs are not working. When will the Minister become involved and make major changes to those programs?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food): Mr.Chair, we have made commitments to producers all across the country. Some programs are already provided, including the risk management programs. I am working regularly with my colleagues in the provinces in order to improve them. We have also increased our contribution to various other programs, specifically in the meat sector, for pork or beef producers, and food processors.
Mr. Richard Lehoux: Mr.Chair, I have been hearing the same answers for several weeks now. Could the Minister simply give us a date?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: I repeat that we are working regularly with producers and their representatives. In addition, I am working together with my provincial colleagues. We are going to determine where the gaps are and we will identify the sectors that most need our assistance. Then, we will determine the best way to provide them with the assistance they need.
Mr. Richard Lehoux: Mr.Chair, the government promised to set its share of the business risk management programs at 60%, even if a province or territory does not participate. Have the provinces received the money, yes or no?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Here is how it works. Through the AgriRecovery program, we have provided $50million for pork producers and $50million for beef producers. The program is available everywhere, but the provinces are responsible for implementing it.
Mr. Richard Lehoux: Mr.Chair, when will that transfer be made? Can the minister simply give us a date? That is all we are asking.
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, I would really like to be able to give a date, but the answer depends on each of the provinces. The provinces have to implement the program.
Mr. Richard Lehoux: However, Mr.Chair, the minister has told us that she is ready to transfer the funds, whether or not the provinces add any to the program. To date, we still have no answer in that regard. How does the Minister of Agriculture intend to make major changes to the various risk management programs by July, when the government has itself pushed back the federal-provincial-territorial meeting of Ministers of Agriculture to October? We have been meeting by Zoom for some time now. Why was that not able to be an option?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, I meet with my provincial colleagues every week, either by conference call or by Zoom. I can assure my colleague about our ongoing collaboration with the provinces. As for the AgriRecovery program, once again, the provinces have to implement it and it is their choice to contribute their share of 40% or not, in whole or in part. However, our federal commitment on the 60% share is firm.
Mr. Richard Lehoux: Mr.Chair, if I understand correctly, there will be no changes to the various programs before November. The sectors of agriculture under supply management, like eggs and poultry producers in my constituency, who have been promised compensation for a long time, want to know when the money will be transferred to the producers who are working tirelessly to feed our country.
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: I know that poultry, egg and milk producers work extremely hard. Our commitment to them in terms of compensation in response to the three free-trade agreements is still firm. At the moment, we are concentrating on emergency programs. We will then proceed with that compensation.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr.Lehoux, you have about 30seconds left.
Mr. Richard Lehoux: Thank you, Mr.Chair. As I see it, I still have not had an answer. The country is moving towards more automation. I am thinking, for example, about the advances that many SMEs and farmers in my constituency could implement in their companies. Unfortunately, in the regions, the Internet is far from adequate. When will I be able to tell my constituents that reliable Internet service will be available in their homes?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: I assure you that we recognize the importance of the Internet in rural regions. I myself represent a rural constituency and it is a challenge every day. We are working with our colleagues, the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry and the Minister of Rural Economic Development to speed up the implementation of programs along those lines.
The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): We'll now proceed to Mr. Motz.
Mr. Glen Motz: Mr. Chair, for the Minister of Public Safety, Minister Blair, how many times has the list of banned firearms changed since May 1?
Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): My understanding is that an order in council was made on May 1, and we have not made any changes to that order in council.
Mr. Glen Motz: That's untrue. How many more firearms have been added to the original prohibited list since that date?
Hon. Bill Blair: I suspect the member may be referring to the work that the RCMP has been doing through the Canadian firearms program in order to apply the order in council that was passed.
The Chair: Before we go to Mr. Motz, I want to ask all honourable members to ensure that they are on mute. We are getting some voices in the background. Mr. Motz, please continue.
Mr. Glen Motz: How many .22 calibre rifles, firearms, are on that banned list?
Hon. Bill Blair: To be very clear, Mr. Chair, the banned list includes a number of assault-style rifles, including the AR-15. The member may be referring to a weapon that the RCMP has identified as using an AR-15 frame, which of course
Mr. Glen Motz: Again, that is a wrong answer, Mr. Chair. How many shotguns are now on that banned list?
Hon. Bill Blair: That is a bit of confusion put out by the gun lobby to frighten hunters. In fact, we did not prohibit any shotguns.
Mr. Glen Motz: Again, that is another untruth, Mr. Chair. Are there any airsoft guns on the prohibited list?
Hon. Bill Blair: That's another bit of mistruth and deception put out by the gun lobby. In fact, there was a weapon called the Blackwater AR-15, which was a real gun that was prohibited, but the toy gun, the airsoft one, was not.
Mr. Glen Motz: That's untrue. I know some of those exact firearms that are on that list. Why is the RCMP continuing to add firearms to the prohibited list after the list was published?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, it is a very important that the RCMP, as the agency responsible for administering the Canadian firearms program, continues to do its diligence to keep Canadians safe.
Mr. Glen Motz: Why has there been no notice given to firearms owners, retailers or the police of the many changes to the banned firearms list?
Hon. Bill Blair: Again, Mr. Chair, it is very important that the Canadian firearms program and the RCMP continue to do the important work of ensuring that Canadians are kept safe.
Mr. Glen Motz: How many firearms have been transferred between licensed gun owners and/or retailers since May 1?
Hon. Bill Blair: Again, I do not have that information and, as the member probably knows, records are not kept by the government or by law enforcement about the transfer of firearms that are not restricted.
Mr. Glen Motz: How many firearms have been retroactively changed to prohibited since May 1? Of the firearms that have been transferred, how many now are retroactively prohibited since May 1?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, to be very clear, on May 1, by order in council, we prohibited 1,500 somewhat different types of firearms, all based upon a military design. Those are the weapons that are prohibited.
Mr. Glen Motz: Since that time you have added almost 700 more, and none of those meet that category you are trying to establish. If a firearm that was not on the original prohibited list was transferred since May 1 and now that firearm appears on that prohibited list, are those transfers subject to a criminal prosecution?
Hon. Bill Blair: Again, the member is asking me a question that is solely the responsibility of the law enforcement agency of jurisdiction, and that is their decision, not ours.
Mr. Glen Motz: The minister has said that the issuance of firearm licences and transfers was stopped recently due to a printer failure. We now know that to be completely false. There was no such failure, but an ordered shutdown. Who ordered the RCMP to withhold these services from law-abiding Canadians?
Hon. Bill Blair: I have absolutely no knowledge of the allegation the member has just made, Mr. Chair, and so I cannot really confirm or deny that it actually ever happened.
Mr. Glen Motz: Maybe the minister needs to check with his officials and find out who actually did the ordering. What does the minister believe to be the estimated cost of the firearms confiscation plan?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, there was no firearms confiscation plan. We will, however, be bringing legislation forward at the very first opportunity to facilitate a buyback program that will treat Canadians who purchased these firearms fairly.
Mr. Glen Motz: You can't buy back something that you never owned in the first place, Mr. Chair. These costs must include administration, price per firearm, as well as the industry costs. We know that industry costs are over $1 billion. If this minister doesn't know the cost, maybe he's as incompetent as our Minister of Finance. I am wondering, Chair, through you, why the law enforcement notes were removed from the firearms reference table?
The Chair: I want to remind the honourable members that parliamentary language is something we need to respect in the House. We should be careful what we say. The honourable minister may reply.
Hon. Bill Blair: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'd just like to advise you and this House that our purpose is to protect the lives of Canadians, and we are taking strong action to strengthen gun control. We are not influenced by the gun lobby or by gun manufacturers, only by our interest in keeping Canadians safe.
The Chair: We will now continue to Mr. Duncan.
Mr. Eric Duncan (StormontDundasSouth Glengarry, CPC): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to start by thanking the government for listening to my proposals a couple of weeks ago regarding the extension of benefits for vulnerable Canadians who may not have been able to file their income tax by this week's deadline. There are millions of relieved seniors with GIS and parents with the child tax benefit and GST who now know they have a bit of time and protection and aren't to be cut off from their benefits. I'm hoping to go two for two here today, so there's no pressure to the Minister of Public Safety. I want to build on the comments last week from Ms. Gladu, my colleague from SarniaLambton, about family reunification between Canadians and Americans. Many constituents in my riding are concerned and are caught in this situation. I certainly support, and I think we support in this chamber, the idea of the extension for travel. However, it's now been three months since many spouses have seen each other, and there are Canadian and American children in custody arrangements who have seen their parent only on one side of the border or the other. After stating for months that reunifying families wasn't considered essential travel, I am thankful that he and the Prime Minister have now said that it is. Will the minister agree to the safe and fair proposal we outlined in our letter last week, which would exempt spouses, children and those with medical needs travelling back and forth with accompanying documentation, so that we can get people and their families back together?
Hon. Bill Blair: I'd like to thank the member for what I think is a very important question and I want to assure him that I have had similar conversations with members of this House from all parties and representing all parts of the country. We recognize the challenge that this particular policy of restricting non-essential travel has meant for families. It is not our intention and never will be our intention to separate families. We are working very closely with the CBSA to ensure that individuals are treated fairly. I want to share this with the member and honourable members of this House. Any change we make to our arrangement at the border will require a change by an order in council. Because there is a great deal of concern in our communities and from our provincial and territorial partners about the movement of people across our border, any change has to be discussed and negotiated with our provincial partners. Some of them, you may be aware, have expressed some concern, and we're addressing those concerns because we respect their concerns. At the same time we are working very hard, and I am very hopeful that we'll be able to resolve this challenge to the satisfaction of the many Canadians you and everyone else represents.
The Chair: I want to remind the honourable members that when they are asking or answering a question, they should speak through the Chair and not directly to the other member. We will go back to Mr. Duncan.
Mr. Eric Duncan: We were looking at each other. It's a bad habit. To the minister, I appreciate the comments. I will just note that the Canadian and American governments have worked with provinces, as we have with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, to repatriate Canadians from around the world. There have been quarantine protocols put in place to allow that. There are protocols and there is a precedence. I am just wondering why there is a delay in acknowledging the families part. I believe there is a precedent and I believe there is a background there, and I think we can, through an order in council or whatever measure, get people back with their families. Can the minister explain why reunifying families needs to be any different from repatriating Canadians from other countries?
Hon. Bill Blair: Again I thank the member, because this is a very important issue and it's important to us as well. We have been working over the past couple of weeks very diligently on trying to find a resolution of this problem, because it is never our intention to separate families and we have all heard some very heart-wrenching concerns that have been raised. At the same time, I think it's important to work very closely, as we have done, with our provincial and territorial partners to ensure that we address the concerns they have raised. We are prepared to move forward and we are working very hard to resolve the concerns that were raised so that we can have a positive answer to those many families, and we
The Chair: We will go back to Mr. Duncan.
Mr. Eric Duncan: I appreciate that comment from the minister. I want to share the story of a constituent of mine, Mr. David Lee, from Cornwall. He and his wife Maria have been married for a couple of years now. She is an American citizen. They spend about five months of the year in Texas and five months in Cornwall and would generally travel about two months of the year. However, she couldn't come up to Canada because of the restrictions that have been put in place, and it's certainly putting a strain on them. Can the minister confirm that the three concerns we outlined in our letter are being discussed as part of reaching a solution or a resolution as soon as possible? The three concerns are that spouses and long-term partners can be reunited, that children with child custody arrangements can see both of their parents, and that if somebody needs to travel back or forth over the border for medical appointments, they can do that and can stay with their spouse. Can you confirm that all three are on the table and will be addressed?
Hon. Bill Blair: What I can confirm is that we're working hard to make sure we keep families together. I want to reiterate, because you raise a very important point, that when people cross the border they're still subject to the quarantine orders of public health. That's for the protection of all Canadians. You mentioned travelling back and forth across the border. If the travel is deemed essential, that is an exception, but if it is not deemed essential, then a person must go into quarantine for 14 days. That's one of the concerns the provinces have raised with us and one of the assurances they have sought. We're working to provide those assurances.
The Chair: Before we go to the next line of questioning, I want to remind the honourable members that we have interpreters who are working very hard to translate from one language to the other. I therefore ask you to speak a little more slowly out of consideration for the interpreters, who are doing a really good job. We'll now go to Mr. Kram.
Mr. Michael Kram (ReginaWascana, CPC): Mr. Chair, I've had the opportunity to talk with Mr. James Bogusz, CEO of the Regina Airport Authority, and he paints a grim picture. He expects the airport to be out of money by the end of the summer. The loss of the Regina International Airport would be devastating, not only to the city of Regina but also to southern Saskatchewan. The Liberal government has made a great show out of allegedly providing $330 million in assistance to airports through lease deferrals, but here is what it's not telling people: Airport lease payments are already tied to revenue and have been for many years, so when an airport's revenue goes down to zero, its lease payments to the federal government go down to zero, pandemic or no pandemic. That means the government has done absolutely nothing to help Canada's airports. Will the government commit today to providing real assistance to Canada's struggling airports?
Hon. Bill Blair: The Minister of Transport has been working very closely with airports, large and small, right across the country. We have continued to update our responses in this rapidly evolving situation. We've been in touch with each of the airports, and we've been working very hard to help them manage through these difficult times. We know that in some circumstances, continued operations at smaller airports have not been possible, but wherever possible we have done our very best to try to accommodate the very real financial challenges these airports are experiencing.
Mr. Michael Kram: Mr. Chair, Canada's airports are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy and the Liberal government's response has been to defer their lease payments. These were already based on revenue, so these deferrals are effectively meaningless. In the meantime, the U.S. government's CARES program is providing $10 billion in grants and low-interest forgivable loans to support American airports. Will the government commit today to saving Canada's airports with a similar program of grants and forgivable loans?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, we have worked very hard, and continue to do so, to make sure we provide supports to regional airports right across this country. We know how important air transport is to such a vast country and we know the tremendous work they do. They support communities and the Canadian economy. We're going to work very closely with them to make sure we provide the right supports to help them get through this difficult time, because we know how important they will be to the eventual restart of our economy. Their continued existence and success are important to that restart, and we'll work with them.
Mr. Michael Kram: Mr. Chair, the airport crisis goes far beyond my home city of Regina. Airports are vital to Canada's economy, providing over 200,000 jobs nationwide and paying $13 billion in wages and $7 billion in taxes. However, now Canada's airports are on the brink of collapse, and the government has stood idly by as airports have lost over 90% of their revenue. Last month Joyce Carter, chair of the Canadian Airports Council, called on the government for a three-point plan for airport recovery. It includes the permanent elimination of ground leases, substantive loan and bond guarantees and a special plan to support smaller airports that provide vital supplies to rural and remote communities. Could the minister inform the committee if the government has done anything in response to the Canadian Airports Council's request?
Hon. Bill Blair: I would make the observation that all of our smaller regional airports are vital to the communities they serve. That's why it's important that we work with them all. The Minister of Transport is in regular communication and in ongoing discussions with airport authorities, large and small, right across this country on how we can continue to support them. There have been a number of proposals made by the industry itself and by some of the regional airports on what form that help can take. That's all part of a very important ongoing discussion. I believe it is clear that Canadians need our help, and we are there for Canadians to help them get back on their feet when we get through this pandemic.
The Chair: Mr. Kram, we have time for a 15-second question and a 15-second answer.
Mr. Michael Kram: Mr. Chair, the United States, Australia, New Zealand and Japan have all started free trade negotiations with the United Kingdom. Why hasn't Canada?
Hon. Mary Ng (MarkhamThornhill, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for the question. We, of course, are going to make sure that we will always act in the interests of Canadian businesses, and I want to assure Canadians that CETA continues to apply to our trade with the United Kingdom. We will make sure that our further work will always take into account the interests of Canadian businesses.
The Chair: We now move to Mr.Therrien.
Mr. Alain Therrien (La Prairie, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I would like to know how many full-time and part-time employees are currently working for the Liberal Party of Canada.
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): On a point of order, Mr.Chair. I am not sure that the number of employees at the Liberal Party, the Bloc Qubcois, or the Conservative Party is relevant to government management.
The Chair: I am not sure whether that is a point of order, but I will let Mr.Therrien continue.
Mr. Alain Therrien: If he stays with me, he will understand. He can trust me. I would like to know how many people work full time and part time for the Liberal Party of Canada. It is a simple question.
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: A number of people do. Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
Mr. Alain Therrien: Mr.Chair, I know that they think its funny to pilfer taxpayers money from government coffers. But that is not our style. The Liberal Party took money through the emergency wage subsidy program. I would just like to know how many people work for the Liberal Party of Canada.
Hon. Bill Morneau: I do not know how many people work for the Liberal Party, but I can say that the emergency wage subsidy is for all sectors of the economy. That is how we can protect employees across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30% or more.
Mr. Alain Therrien: They have 157MPs and they have known for two weeks that we are working on the wage subsidy. Not one member wondered how many people work for them. They are too busy helping themselves to the cookie jar. In an article in La Presse on May25, Liberal Party spokesman Braeden Caley said that between 75and 100employees were receiving wages subsidized through this program. Is that correct?
Hon. Bill Morneau: I am very focused on our concern, which is to protect Canadians across the country who are working for businesses facing a reduction in revenue of 30% or more. It is very important for them and for our economy.
Mr. Alain Therrien: Let's use a round number. Let's say 100employees. How many employees in the Liberal Party of Canada are threatened by the pandemic? You should know; it's your party.
The Chair: I would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the Chair. The honourable minister has the floor.
Hon. Bill Morneau: Thank you, Mr.Chair. We stand by our approach of protecting employees across the country. We want to make sure that they have enough money to meet the challenges that they are facing during the pandemic.
Mr. Alain Therrien: I would actually say that they want to have enough money for their next election campaign. I would like to know how much taxpayers' money has been taken from the emergency wage subsidy program and will be used as election loot for the Liberal Party of Canada. How much money have you taken from the program?
Hon. Bill Morneau: The emergency wage subsidy program allows us to protect 75% of the income that employees were earning before the crisis, to a maximum of $847. This is important for them and, of course, very important for our economy.
Mr. Alain Therrien: Mr.Chair, since I am not getting an answer, let me share with you the very simple calculation I cobbled together. One hundred employees at $847 a week is $340,000a month. That is the amount of taxpayers' money that the Liberal Party is putting into its pockets. If we multiply that amount by threethat's three months, since it started on March15we get over $1million. That is the amount they will have put in their pockets, to be used as election loot for the Liberal Party. Given that the Liberals are extending the emergency wage subsidy, will their party continue to help itself to the money?
Hon. Bill Morneau: The purpose of the emergency wage subsidy is to protect employees. So every business must ensure that the money goes to the employees. That is very important. It is how employees and their incomes are protected. It will help millions of families across the country to be in a better situation.
The Chair: Mr.Therrien, you can ask a question of no more than 15seconds.
Mr. Alain Therrien: They have already taken $1million out of the register, so that is settled. My question is twofold. First, are they going to pay back that $1million? Second, I hope they will not be taking another $1million by September. Can I at least be reassured of that?
Hon. Bill Morneau: We will continue with our approach to protect employees and businesses needing it during the crisis.
The Chair: We will take a short break so that our employees can safely change places. We can now continue. We'll go now to Mr. Van Bynen.
Mr. Tony Van Bynen (NewmarketAurora, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I will be splitting my time with the member for Scarborough Centre. Mr. Chair, as parliamentarians, our greatest responsibility is to keep Canadians safe. During the previous Parliament, our government made significant investments in the CBSA and the RCMP, and provided funds to provinces and territories to invest in programs that combat gun and gang violence and support our communities in providing positive alternatives for youth engagement and activities. On May 1, our government banned assault-style weapons. This is something that we pledged to do during the last federal election and something that victims' groups, law enforcement and everyday Canadians called on for decades, but we must know that we need to take more action to keep our communities safe. Mr. Chair, I'm sure that this continues to be an important issue for many communities. Can the minister tell the House and the constituents of NewmarketAurora what further steps our government will take to keep Canadians safe?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, I'd like to begin by thanking the honourable member for NewmarketAurora for his question and for his advocacy on behalf of the safety of his community. Mr. Chair, building upon historic investments that we made in the last Parliament in law enforcement dealing with guns and gangs, we took the important next step in our promise to strengthen Canada's gun control by prohibiting weapons that many in the law enforcement community, including the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police, have said have no place in our communities. There is much more to do. We will build on these early steps by strengthening our work and our laws at the border, by taking steps to prevent the theft and criminal diversion of guns and also by making significant investments in kids, families and communities where the conditions give rise to gun violence right across Canada. Mr. Chair, we have much work to do, and we are committed to keeping Canadians safe.
The Chair: The next question goes to Ms. Zahid.
Mrs. Salma Zahid (Scarborough Centre, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, in cities and towns across Canada, small businesses are the backbones of our local economies. They are also pillars of our communities. Even during these challenging times, we have seen restaurants and other businesses step up to deliver meals to front-line workers and make donations to our local food banks. So many have supported Scarborough Health Network's meals on wheels program. Their leadership has been inspiring. I have heard from many small business owners in Scarborough, from dentists to small manufacturers, who are having trouble paying their commercial rents due to the sharp downturn in business caused by COVID-19. They are interested in how programs like the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance program would help them to stay in business, but they worry that these programs may not be able to help if their landlords don't participate. These small businesses are crucial to our community. Could the Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade please explain why it is so important that the landlords participate to help small businesses make it through the pandemic and how we are working to make this program a success, not just here in Scarborough but across Canada?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member of Parliament for her advocacy for the people of Scarborough Centre on this really important question. While rent is an area of provincial responsibility, helping businesses across the country is all of our responsibility. This is why we have stepped up to provide rent relief to businesses while, at the same time, helping property owners maintain the rental income through this crisis. We are asking property owners to do their part in keeping small businesses and their employees to get through these challenging times, and to take advantage of our forgivable loans in order to help small businesses that are the hardest hit by reducing their rent by 75%. This is a win-win situation. Many landlords have already stepped up, and we salute their efforts. We will continue to do what we can to help protect and help our small businesses across Canada from coast to coast to coast.
The Chair: The next question goes to Ms. Kwan.
Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP): The $4-billion Canada housing benefit agreement was announced in 2017. It's supposed to provide up to $2,500 per year to help families in need with their rent. We know that poverty and inadequate housing are barriers felt even more by black, indigenous and racialized people. Can the minister tell us how many families have actually received this housing support?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development): Mr. Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for asking about this really special and unique housing benefit. We introduced the Canada housing benefit as part of the national housing strategy to help people as a bridge to permanent housing, people who are in core housing need, are homeless or at risk of homelessness. We have signed agreements with provinces. We hope all of them come to the table to sign this really important cost-sharing
The Chair: We will go back to Ms. Kwan.
Ms. Jenny Kwan: It has been two and a half years, and families in need are still waiting. Only one province has signed on, and there has been no national consultation on how such a benefit program would even be implemented. With so little federal leadership, the Canadian Alliance of Non-Profit Housing Associations has stepped up and done the work for the government. They have outlined five key principles to guide the implementation of the Canada housing benefit. Will the minister adopt those principles and get on with ensuring vulnerable families get the rental assistance they need?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, it is really unfortunate that the honourable member thinks that an investment of $55 billion and the commitment of a 10-year federal plan of leadership in affordable housing and community housing is a lack of leadership. It is quite the opposite. The Canada housing benefit is yet another important segment of the national housing strategy, which will ensure people have access to a safe, affordable place to call home. It is being signed by a number of provinces, not just one as the honourable member suggests. There are up to five provinces that have moved on signing on to the Canada housing benefit.
Ms. Jenny Kwan: Then surely the minister can actually tell us how many families benefited from that program. The fact is that two and a half million families are paying more than 30% of their income on rent, and they have been hit hard by this pandemic. Reciting the same message box over and over again will not get them the help they need. Aside from going forward with a housing benefit program, will the government prioritize affordable housing stimulus spending as a key component of any post-COVID stimulus policy?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, joining with provinces and territories and providing real help to members of the community who are experiencing homelessness so they can have a permanent roof over their heads is real action. It's real leadership by our government as part of the Canada housing benefit. This is a real benefit that is going to households in core housing need, people who experience a core housing need and who need a permanent place to call home. The Canada housing benefit is providing real help to thousands and thousands of Canadian households. We will continue to provide that leadership in concert with provinces and territories.
Ms. Jenny Kwan: Well, minister, I would say that B.C. is still looking for the government to step up. We bought our first hotel to house the homeless in permanent housing, and the government has yet to provide any funding to them. The next question is for the Minister of Immigration. The first migrant worker died yesterday due to COVID-19. Migrant workers are warehoused in a space with no barriers between each sleeping cot. Others are housed in crowded communal bunkhouses. What action will the minister take to address this alarming situation?
Hon. Marco Mendicino (Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship): I thank my colleague for the question, and I want to extend our sympathies regarding the temporary worker who passed away from COVID-19. Of course, we continue to support workers by ensuring that they have the accommodations and the spacing necessary to work when they are here providing food security for all Canadians. We're also providing support to farmers to ensure that those accommodations are made. We put in place the regulations and the rules that are necessary, and we continue to work very closely with our provincial partners as well as leaders in this sector so that we can protect workers and ensure that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food.
Ms. Jenny Kwan: No one should have to endure such inhumane housing conditions and risk their lives to support their families. We rely on them to put food on the table for our families. They don't have access to health care and they don't have a pathway to permanent residence. Will the minister do the right thing and grant migrant workers health care coverage and ensure the government follows up on the principle that if you're good enough to work, you're good enough to stay?
Hon. Marco Mendicino: In fact, Mr. Chair, I would clarify that temporary foreign workers do have a pathway to permanent residence. Of course, that is an opportunity we will continue to offer those who are ensuring that Canadians have access to healthy, safe and affordable food. We will continue to make the investments that are necessary to maintain a high standard of professionalism and workplace safety.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Arnold.
Mr. Mel Arnold (North OkanaganShuswap, CPC): Mr. Chair, fisheries and oceans stakeholders and coastal communities face unprecedented threats from the COVID-19 crisis, and they deserve the support of all levels of government, including their own MPs. Yesterday the Liberal and NDP MPs banded together to restrict the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans to just four hours of sitting in the summer months. Conservatives are ready to put in the hours to support Canadians, while the Liberals and NDP refuse to do the work. When will the Prime Minister tell his MPs to get back to work for the Canadians who need their support?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Mr. Chair, we all agree that committees are doing extremely important work, and that's why committees are meeting regularly. I would like to remind my colleague that the committees are masters of their own destiny and make their own decisions, not the government.
Mr. Mel Arnold: Mr. Chair, it took months for DFO to realize that fish passage on the Fraser River was blocked at Big Bar. Then it took them seven more months to tender a contract to clear the blockage. Now that contract has tripled from $17.6 million to over $52.5 million without a single communications post from the minister's office. The original contract amount was clearly inadequate, so who ordered it?
Hon. Bernadette Jordan (South ShoreSt. Margarets, Lib.): Mr. Chair, since we found out about the landslide at Big Bar, our government has been extremely active in making sure that the salmon have a passage through. We know how critically important the salmon are to the Fraser River, as well as to the indigenous communities along the Fraser. We're working diligently to make sure that we get that passage cleared. So far, we've made significant progress, but we know there's more work that needs to be done. That's why we'll continue to work with indigenous communities and the province to make sure that these
Mr. Mel Arnold: Mr. Chair, the fisheries minister's mandate letter from November of last year directed her to make new investments in fighting invasive species. Half a year later, the minister has failed to deliver. Canadians on the front line of prevention wrote the minister, and when they got a response five months later, it was devoid of any help. This government's delays are hurting Canada's fight against invasive species. When will the minister follow her Prime Minister's directive and make new investments in the fight against invasive species?
Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, I want to thank my hon. colleague for the question. Invasive species are a real challenge for our waterways. We know that a lot more has to be done. We're working diligently to find the answers to deal with some of the problems we are seeing from invasive species. We are continuing to monitor situations in waterways. I am committed to making sure that I meet my commitments within my mandate letter, and I will have more to say on that soon.
Mr. Mel Arnold: Mr. Chair, the list of hunting and sport shooting firearms banned by Minister Blair's order in council continues to grow. What other hunting firearms does he plan to ban?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, to be very clear, the weapons we have prohibited are weapons that were not designed for hunting or sport shooting but for soldiers to use in combat. As law enforcement leaders right across the country have said many times, they have no place in our community, and we agree.
Mr. Mel Arnold: Mr. Chair, I continue to hear from constituents in the North OkanaganShuswap who are unable to access supports under the Canada emergency business account or the emergency commercial rent assistance program. Business owners have also lost employees and can't get them to come back to work because of the lack of flexibility in the emergency response benefit and the emergency student benefit. When the Liberals shut down Parliament, they removed our ability to amend legislation and fix their failures. When will the government fix these problems and the programs?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we continue to look at the programs we've put out to support Canadians to make sure that they are actually having the desired impact. As we've moved along, we have said that we need to make amendments. We've committed to extending the wage subsidy, and of course we're looking at all the measures we've put out so we can ensure that people have the support they need during this crisis.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Viersen.
Mr. Arnold Viersen: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, an April 1 letter confirms that Deloitte Canada has been contracted to help supply PPE. Was this a sole-source contract?
Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement): Mr. Chair, the honourable member is correct that we have contracted with Deloitte to assist us with our operations on the ground in China in order to have an A-to-Z procurement approach to delivering goods
The Chair: We will go back to Mr. Viersen.
Mr. Arnold Viersen: Can the minister confirm that this was, indeed, a sole-source contract?
Hon. Anita Anand: Mr. Chair, there are a number of goods that need to be procured for Canadian health care professionals to be safe, and that's exactly
The Chair: We'll go to Mr. Viersen.
Mr. Arnold Viersen: Yes or no, was this a sole-source contract?
Hon. Anita Anand: Mr. Chair, I will take that question back to my department and come back to the member with a further, fuller response.
Mr. Arnold Viersen: Mr. Chair, is Deloitte of Canada able to speak on behalf of PSPC?
Hon. Anita Anand: Mr. Chair, not at all. The contracts that we are entering into are made by us
The Chair: We will go back to Mr. Viersen.
Mr. Arnold Viersen: What is the value of the contract with Deloitte?
Hon. Anita Anand: Mr. Chair, again, that is information that we are not going to release at this time. When the time is right, we will do so.
Mr. Arnold Viersen: Many of the suppliers that are in contact with Deloitte of Canada are indigenous contractors. Has the government secured any contracts with indigenous suppliers?
Hon. Anita Anand: Mr. Chair, we are in touch with indigenous suppliers, as we are with many suppliers across Canada and internationally. We are working hard to make sure that we have diverse supply chains across the board, and that means including indigenous suppliers in that mix.
Mr. Arnold Viersen: Many of these indigenous suppliers have previously been vetted by the federal government and are certified vendors. Is it appropriate for Deloitte to be recertifying these vendors?
Hon. Anita Anand: Mr. Chair, the honourable member appears to have information regarding Deloitte's certification processes, which would not be outside what the government itself is doing. I encourage him to come forward with a question that actually responds to fact before
The Chair: Go ahead, Mr. Viersen.
Mr. Arnold Viersen: Does the minister think that re-vetting suppliers is a good use of resources?
Hon. Anita Anand: Mr. Chair, I'll tell you what I think. I believe that Canada is in a crisis, and I am making every effort to order PPE as Canadian health care workers require. Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
Mr. Arnold Viersen: Mr. Chair, indigenous suppliers stand at the ready to supply PPE to Canada. Has the minister contracted with any indigenous suppliers?
Hon. Anita Anand: Mr. Chair, we are in touch with indigenous suppliers and will continue to ensure that Canada has a diverse supply chain in terms of manufacturers, in terms of products and in terms of countries. That is our commitment to Canadian health care workers
The Chair: Now we go back to Mr. Viersen.
Mr. Arnold Viersen: Has the government signed a contract with a single indigenous supplier?
Hon. Anita Anand: Mr. Chair, I would like to say that we are continuing to make sure that our supplier list is confidential, because we are in a crisis and we do not want to jeopardize The Chair: We go back to Mr. Viersen.
Mr. Arnold Viersen: Mr. Chair, on Friday the association for indigenous business could not name a single indigenous company that had been contracted. Have any of the contracts signed with the federal government between Deloitte Canada and PPE suppliers been filled?
Hon. Anita Anand: Mr. Chair, the member is mistaken. Deloitte is not signing contracts on behalf of the Government of Canada. Deloitte is assisting with and sourcing manufacturers, and all contracts are signed by the government with manufacturers.
The Chair: We will now proceed with Mr.Paul-Hus.
Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus (CharlesbourgHaute-Saint-Charles, CPC): Mr.Chair, we have difficulty understanding the government's management of the border. The order between Canada and the United States has an exception allowing refugee claimants to submit their claims in Canada if they have family here and we accept them. However, hundreds of Canadian-American couples cannot be reunited, which is a problem. I find it hard to believe that the minister cannot quickly instruct border services officers to allow spouses to enter the country right now.
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, I appreciate very much the member's intervention and the long list of people he sent to me. I'm also working with a number of different families. We remain committed to keeping families together. As I advised this House earlier, Mr. Chair, we're working diligently with our provincial and territorial partners to take the steps necessary to enable people to stay united as they cross the borders and enter into Canada, but to do so safely and not put other Canadians at risk.
Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: Mr.Chair, letting a spouse come home will not put Canadians at risk. A survey conducted in Canada reveals that a large majority of Canadians do not trust the Chinese communist regime at all and do not want Huawei in Canada. The good news today is that BCE and Telus have decided not to do business with Huawei. Now that the government no longer has to worry about BCE and Telus, can they say today that no other company is going to use Huawei and that Huawei will be banned from Canada for 5G?
Hon. Steven Guilbeault: Mr.Chair, I thank my colleague for his question. Our government will always protect our networks and ensure that Canadians have access to the latest innovations in telecommunications. A review of 5G technologies and their economic and security considerations is currently under way. We will ensure that Canadians' security and personal information will never be compromised.
Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: Let me remind the minister that we have been working on this for years and that CSIS has confirmed that Huawei is unreliable as far as Canada's security is concerned. Right now, two Canadians are being unjustly detained by the Chinese communist regime. The same regime continues to lie to the world about COVID-19, block our exports, and terrorize the citizens of Hong Kong. When will the Prime Minister confirm that he is going to ban Huawei from developing 5G in Canada? It is a simple question.
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, let's be very clear. Canadians deserve to have access to the most beneficial 5G technology. At the same time, the safety and security of Canada's digital environment will be of paramount consideration. We're doing the work required and we're not basing that agenda on some media report, but instead ensuring that all scientific and security factors are taken into account. We are engaged in robust discussions with our Five Eyes partners, including the United States, and all our security agencies. Mr. Chair, we'll do the work necessary to
The Chair: Mr.Paul-Hus has the floor.
Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: The minister does not need a sheet of paper, this matter has been clear for a long time. Everyone is saying that we need to ban Huawei from Canada. I have a quick question for the Minister of Finance. Bell and Telus had each estimated that removing Huawei from their development would cost $1billion. Today we have learned that these companies have decided not to use Huawei. Did the government decide to pay for this under wraps to get out of it? Having said that, my next question is more about the theft on May27. About 90,000surgical masks bound for the Quebec City UHC were stolen from the Toronto airport. As we all know, these masks are critical in the fight against COVID-19. Has the minister called for an investigation? When are we going to find out what happened to those stolen masks that were bound for Quebec?
Hon. Anita Anand: Mr. Chair, I will gladly look into this issue and get back to my colleague. Our procurements have reached 101 million surgical masks at this time, and they're being distributed to provinces, including Quebec.
The Chair: Mr.Paul-Hus, you have time to ask a 15-second question.
Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: It is a little strange. The masks were stolen in Toronto on May27. So they have been gone a long time. I just want to know if there is an investigation and if they will ever be found. I want to address another complex and important issue. A police officer from the Montreal area called me and told me about a current fraud. Some social assistance recipients learned about the CERB and applied for it. Building managers have received a lot of cheques addressed to social assistance recipients. They know it is not legal and it constitutes fraud. The police officer is asking me what to do with the cheques and to whom they should be sent. Should he give them to the fraudsters? How does that work?
Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion): Mr. Chair, I can assure the member that we have robust mechanisms in place to address CERB fraud. We understand that in delivering this benefit to a million Canadians to date, we had to put more of our integrity measures at the back, but make no mistake: Canadians who behave fraudulently will be held to account, and we will ensure that the money is either repaid or the cheques not cashed.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Moore.
Hon. Rob Moore (Fundy Royal, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, there remains a concern across Canada that delays in the criminal courts could result in criminals walking free. The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court recently said in an interview that amendments to the Criminal Code could allow this backlog to be addressed. Can the minister outline what work has been done to address the backlog, and when we can expect to see it addressed?
Hon. David Lametti (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada): Mr. Chair, I thank the honourable member for his question. I can assure him that we are working closely with our provincial and territorial counterparts, who have the primary responsible for the superior courts of justice and therefore the criminal law in their various jurisdictions for the administration of justice in criminal law. I can also say that we have formed an action committee co-chaired by me and the Chief Justice of Canada, again with a variety of different kinds of representation on that committee, to look at the restart of the justice system
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Moore.
Hon. Rob Moore: Mr. Chair, weeks ago I raised these concerns with the minister over backlogs in the criminal courts and the risk they present to our justice system. The provinces have significant insight into how this can be addressed, and many provinces have been proactive with their court backlogs. Can the minister outline what work has been done with the provinces on this important issue?
Hon. David Lametti: We are working with the provinces. There are different practices in each province. We're working to serve in a coordinating role as a repository of information for best practices so that they can be shared across provinces. We're also looking at specific suggestions that provinces have made with respect to reforming the criminal law.
Hon. Rob Moore: Many owners of small businesses in my riding, and indeed in all of our ridings, are suffering right now and have received absolutely no help from this government because of technicalities. Two weeks ago, the Prime Minister indicated the government was looking to expand access to the Canada emergency business account to include to those who operate their businesses out of a personal bank account. This is something that we've been calling for over the past several weeks, and businesses cannot wait any longer. Can the minister tell me what we should be telling our constituents about those who are caught up based on a technicality and are not able to access this important measure?
Hon. Mary Ng: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank the honourable member for that really important question. I want to assure the small business owners in his community and all across the country just how important they are and how difficult a time this is for them. We absolutely understand. We are hearing you and we are working as hard and as fast as we can to make sure that those business owners get access to this very important support. I would like to highlight, though, that owners of 650,000 small businesses across the country are getting the loan support. Of course, there is more to do, and we will keep working hard for those business owners.
Hon. Rob Moore: The lack of access to high-speed Internet remains a major issue across my home province of New Brunswick. This is a significant barrier to rural economic development. It impacts the quality of life of rural constituents. The lack of progress and transparency on rural Internet is frustrating for residents, for municipal leaders and for small business owners who are already suffering due to COVID. When will a new plan for rural Internet be introduced, and how quickly can we expect it to be deployed?
Hon. Maryam Monsef: Mr. Chair, our government has a plan to connect Canadians to high-speed Internet. To date, we've set aside investments to connect a million households, and there's more work to be done. We will be announcing our next steps to connect more Canadians through the universal broadband funds in the days to come. I look forward to communities across the country benefiting from federal investments and the private investments that our investments will bring.
Hon. Rob Moore: On the issue of commercial rent, how is the government going to ensure that business owners whose landlords still refuse to participate in the government's program receive the support that they need to stay open at this time?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, as the member knows and would understand, rent between small business owners and landlords is a provincial jurisdiction. That said, we've moved forward to try to ensure that there's a process so that those landlords and the commercial tenants can work together to come up with a solution that will work for both. We're seeing landlords
The Chair: We'll now go to Ms. Atwin.
Mrs. Jenica Atwin (Fredericton, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, Nicholas Gibbs, Colten Boushie, Tina Fontaine, Alain Magloire and Breonna Taylor were not all born on the same side of the border, but they all lost their lives at the hand of the same cruel enemy: racism. We cannot, here in Canada, think higher of ourselves when we are reading the headlines of our neighbour. We cannot ignore our history, past or present. The final report from the national inquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women and girls stated that indigenous women and girls have faced a Canadian genocide. In 2018 a report revealed that a black person was almost 20 times more likely than a white person to be fatally shot by the Toronto police, and a 2019 report exposed systemic bias among the Montreal police force against black and indigenous people. Black lives matter. Indigenous lives matter. I am asking the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, as per her mandate, what exactly our government intends to do now to fight racism among its institutions. If the anti-racism secretariat has in fact been established, what priorities have been actioned?
Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth): I would like to thank the member for that very important question. I will state that it is essential that we all work together, not only during this challenging time but during the times that come out of it. On the comments that were shared earlier, this is another life lost that should not have been lost. Yes, the anti-racism secretariat has been established. This is a resource not only for Canadians but also for government agencies to better the way in which we do work internally as well, including advancement opportunities. We know that the decision-making table does not reflect the diversity of our country. That's exactly why we came out with an open, transparent, merit-based appointment process: so that we can see the country's diversity reflected at the decision-making table. There is a lot more work to do. I can assure the member and all Canadians that my eyes are open, my ears are open and I am an ally. I will work as hard as possible to be that voice at the cabinet table. I cannot experience what it is to be a black Canadian, but I can tell you that your voices will be represented and they will be heard. I see you.
Mrs. Jenica Atwin: Mr. Chair, it has been four years since the settlement payment for sixties scoop survivors was approved. That resolution hasn't taken place. The pain continues. Why is it that the 12,500 class members who have been determined eligible still haven't received the payments they are owed? These people deserve justice without any delay, especially in light of COVID-19 and the added pressures facing communities. Can the minister confirm exactly when these survivors will receive the interim payment?
Hon. Carolyn Bennett: Thank you very much. Thank you for your advocacy on all these truly important things. As you know, because of the exceptional circumstance of COVID-19, the class counsel, with the support of Canada, was seeking direction from the courts to issue partial payments to the class members with a valid claim. On June 1 the Federal Court granted that order. A similar motion is before the Ontario Superior Court. Once granted, eligible class members can expect to receive partial payments of $21,000 over the coming weeks. Canada welcomes the Federal Court's
The Chair: We'll now go back to Ms. Atwin.
Mrs. Jenica Atwin: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Eighty per cent of people who are diagnosed with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, or ALS, will die within two to five years of receiving the diagnosis. The pandemic has made it more difficult than ever for these people to access medical appointments and treatment. They do not have the luxury of time. They want to live and to share moments with their families and their loved ones. The lack of urgency to approve new trials and therapies in Canada directly impacts the life expectancy of people with ALS. Can the Minister of Health commit to taking leadership on this file, removing the barriers to accessing these promising treatments and therapies, and ensuring that the costs of these treatments will be covered?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Thank you very much for the very important question. We know that people living with ALS and their families struggle immensely every single day. Of course the member opposite has my commitment to work with the community and with manufacturers of drugs that are promising for ALS to expedite approval in a safe way that protects the health of Canadians but also provides treatment in an affordable way for all Canadians.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Green.
Mr. Matthew Green (Hamilton Centre, NDP): Mr. Chair, I can't breathe and I'm tired, and today we've heard a lot of progressive words from the Prime Minister, but he hasn't really said anything. If the Prime Minister will not provide leadership in this House, will anybody from his cabinet here today commit to taking concrete steps to address anti-black racism?
Hon. Bardish Chagger: Mr. Chair, yes, we do commit. That's exactly why we will listen more. We will acknowledge that racism is alive in Canada. We know we must do better. However, I also need the member to recognize that this work has started. The open, transparent, merit-based appointment process is resulting in the decision-making table better reflecting Canadians. We recognize the UN international
The Chair: We will go back to Mr. Green.
Mr. Matthew Green: Mr. Chair, will the member then commit today to make it a legal requirement to collect race-based data across all the ministries?
Hon. Bardish Chagger: Mr. Chair, the recently announced immunity task force is providing disaggregated data to decision-makers, because decisions need to be based on science and evidence. Yes, I will work across all departments to ensure that data is better collected.
Mr. Matthew Green: Mr. Chair, that's not a legal requirement. It is also not lost on the black community that the former Toronto chief of police, the architect of this country's largest profiling program under the guise of street checks or carding, was made this country's Minister of Public Safety by this Prime Minister. As the tragic consequence of the unlawful, unconstitutional and racist practices in Toronto, black people are 20 times more likely than non-black people to be murdered by police. Does the Minister of Public Safety now admit that the police practice of street checks and carding is in fact a significant factor in Canada's systemic anti-black and anti-indigenous racism, and will he act to immediately end it today?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, let me be very clear. First of all, every Canadian is entitled to bias-free and culturally competent policing. I know from experience that there is nothing more corrosive to the relationship of trust that must exist between the police and racialized communities than the issue of racism or the biased influences of those decisions. Mr. Chair, racial profiling is not only abhorrent and unacceptable, it's in fact unlawful. It's contrary to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and it's contrary to the Canadian Human Rights Act. We are working diligently within all of the federal agencies under my purview to ensure that all officers receive training on culturally competent and bias-free delivery of service. We remain committed to creating a diverse workforce that truly reflects and respects the diverse people of this country.
Mr. Matthew Green: Nobody knows better through experience about the corrosive practice of street checks than I do. Will the minister now apologize to the black community for the harm caused under his tenure as chief of police?
Hon. Bill Blair: Just to be very clear, Mr. Chair, I actually worked with the diverse communities of Toronto for nearly four decades. I worked with extraordinary leaders from the black community and I learned extensively from their lived experience. We worked tirelessly to ensure the safety of all of the people in all of our diverse communities.
Mr. Matthew Green: Bill C-51 was introduced by the Conservatives and supported by the Liberals, including this Prime Minister. It declared indigenous, racial, economic justice, and environmental activists as domestic terrorists. Each province was mandated to enact anti-terrorism protocols, which became a direction for the local police to engage in the practice of street checks or racial profiling. Given what he has said today in the House, will this Minister of Public Safety work to repeal the changes made under Bill C-51?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, I will repeat for the member opposite that racial profiling and bias in the delivery of policing service is not only unacceptable and abhorrent but unlawful. It's contrary to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms; it is contrary to the Canadian Human Rights Act. It cannot ever be tolerated in policing in any place in Canada, but we learned from the lived experience of black and indigenous communities, who tell us that this is still their lived experience, so there is a great deal of work left to do.
The Chair: It is now Mr.Champoux's turn. Mr.Champoux, you have the floor.
Mr. Martin Champoux (Drummond, BQ): Mr.Chair, I will be sharing my time with the honourable member for Joliette. Supplementary unemployment benefits, or SUBs, give employers the opportunity to enhance their employees' employment insurance benefits when they need to temporarily lay them off. A number of companies, including Soprema in Drummond, have done so with the guarantee that the government would maintain the SUB terms when employment insurance is converted to the CERB. However, surprise, surprise, when the employees applied for the CERB in May, they found that they did not meet the criteria because the amount of SUBs they have received exceeded $1,000, the CERB income limit. In addition, they must reimburse the CERB because they found that they were not eligible for it. So, what does the Minister of Finance intend to do to correct his error?
The Chair: We will pause for a second. We have a point of order on the floor. Go ahead, Mr. Green.
Mr. Matthew Green: I posed the most important question. I had 10 seconds left by my count on my time before I was cut off, and I would appreciate, given the seriousness of the conversation here today, if the honourable Minister of Public Safety will please answer the question: Will he apologize to the black community for the irreparable harm that was caused by the racist process of street checks and carding?
The Chair: The way I work it is that if there are 15 seconds or less, we go on to the next one, because it's not really enough time to ask a question and get an answer. I will move on to Mr. Champoux. He did ask a question, and we'll let Ms. Qualtrough, the honourable minister, answer.
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Mr. Chair, SUB plans that existed prior to March 15 are very much alive and in place for companies, employers and their employees. The CERB allows employers to top up an employee's wages to the maximum of a $1,000. As was said, Mr. Chair, in order to deliver this important critical benefit to Canadians, we had to go outside of the EI system. That decision was made, and as a result, eight million Canadians are being helped.
Mr. Martin Champoux: Mr.Chair, SUBs do not have an employment insurance cap. Employers can contribute as much as they want, and they were assured that this would be the case with the CERB. Otherwise, they would have opted for another program. Let me put my question to the Minister of Finance again, in the hope that he will be the one to answer it. When does he intend to fix this error?
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: I thank the member for his question, Mr. Chair. As we can all appreciate, delivering a benefit of this magnitude as quickly as possible to as many Canadians as possible, both those who were EI eligible and those who were outside of EI, resulted in our having to take some decisions to streamline processes and the system. SUB plans are available for employers
The Chair: Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ): Mr.Chair, I will continue on the subject of supplementary unemployment benefits. Let me remind everyone that Service Canada has entered into agreements with companies and is not honouring them. The victims are thousands and thousands of workers who have to reimburse the Canada emergency response benefit, as my colleague just explained. I also have the question my colleague from Drummond asked: why is the government not doing the same thing it does with employment insurance and not counting the benefits paid out as part of earned income? It is simple.
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Mr. Chair, as legislated, we needed to set up a straightforward, simple benefit to deliver to as many people as possible. The nuance and sophistication of the EI system was not available to us. As a result, as I said, eight million Canadians are getting the CERB. Service Canada is working with each and every employee who is in a repayment situation. We do not want to put anybody in a more difficult situation.
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: Mr.Chair, the truth is that the government has forgotten the thousands of workers covered under a supplementary unemployment benefit agreement. We are talking about mothers and fathers. When the government rolled out its Canada emergency response benefit, it was overwhelmed and it forgot about them. The government can fix it right here, right now. Does it want to do that?
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Mr. Chair, let me clarify that employees who were covered by a SUB plan prior to March 15 are indeed covered by that plan. We're working with employers to make sure that their workers have this benefit, regardless of whether or not the CERB is in place. Those who accessed EI after March 15 have been streamlined into the CERB process, and their employers can help them with up to $1,000 a month.
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: Mr.Chair, we really do not have the same information. Agreements were signed before March15 for subsequent periods, but there was an agreement with Service Canada. Companies have tried to contact Service Canada by telephone, but no one is answering. They have tried by email, but no one is replying either. The companies have decided to honour their part of the contract and pay out the SUB. However, the government says that, after the fact, it changed the rules that had previously applied, and it is no longer honouring its agreement. As I understand it, the government does not want to straighten out the situation, and that is unacceptable.
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, I want to reassure the honourable member that we have moved quickly to deal with the unprecedented volumes at Service Canada. We have set up a 1,500-agent call centre to help people through the CERB, as well as redeploying 3,000 additional staff to make sure that people are helped through the EI process.
The Chair: Now we'll go to the next question, which is from Mr. Redekopp.
Mr. Brad Redekopp (Saskatoon West, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. As of December 31, 2019, the total number of pending veterans' disability benefits applications had already grown to over 46,000. These are the most recent public figures. What is the current total number of pending veterans' disability benefits applications before Veterans Affairs?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs): I am sorry, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I thank my honourable colleague for the question and for giving me the opportunity to respond to the Parliament of Canada from my home in Midgell. As I indicated earlier in the House of Commons, I can assure the member that one of my major priorities is to make sure that we deal with the backlog and that the veterans of Canada receive the benefits they truly deserve and need.
Mr. Brad Redekopp: Those 46,000 applications from December of 2019 represent over 30,000 individual veterans. These are men and women who are suffering. How many individual veterans are currently caught in the backlog?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: I again thank my colleague. The fact is that service delivery and providing support to our veterans are of course my top priorities. As you understand, with this pandemic there are some difficulties, but we are processing the same number of decisions daily. Our
The Chair: We will go back to Mr. Redekopp.
Mr. Brad Redekopp: On March 10, we learned that the average time that a veteran was waiting to have their disability benefit application processed had grown to 32 weeks. What is the current average time a veteran is waiting to have their disability benefit application processed?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr. Chair, as I indicated, what we're doing is working to make sure that we streamline the process, make sure that some of the applications can be done automatically. Some cannot, because we have to make sure that what's provided to the veteran is adequate for the disability they
The Chair: We will go back to Mr. Redekopp.
Mr. Brad Redekopp: It seems as though having numbers is a difficult challenge for this government. On March 10, the deputy minister of Veterans Affairs committed to providing the veterans affairs committee with an updated, written plan on how the department will resolve this backlog. This plan was to include timelines. When will the veterans affairs committee be provided with this plan?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr. Chair, I can assure my honourable colleague that of course the veterans affairs committee does vitally important work. I know how important this piece of information is for them. My department is now working to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality we now face with the situation in the country. I can assure my honourable colleague
The Chair: We'll go to Mr. Redekopp.
Mr. Brad Redekopp: Mr. Chair, I'm sure that the department had a draft plan prior to COVID-19, so I wonder if Mr. MacAulay can provide the committee with that plan right now, rather than wait.
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr. Chair, I can assure my honourable colleague that we are working diligently to make sure that this report is prepared, and prepared properly, for the committee. As I said before, I fully understand the importance of the committee and the great work it does
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Redekopp.
Mr. Brad Redekopp: Can the minister give us a timeline of when this report will be given to the committee?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr. Chair, it's difficult to give a timeline. I want to make sure that the report itself reflects the reality of the situation to make sure that the committee
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Redekopp.
Mr. Brad Redekopp: The minister's mandate letter instructed Mr. MacAulay to implement a system of automatic approval for the most common disability applications. When will this system be implemented?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr. Chair, of course this all ties in to the report that the veterans affairs committee is waiting for and to make sure that we're in place in order to make sure that the automatic approval can work and to make sure that veterans receive the proper
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Redekopp.
Mr. Brad Redekopp: If automatic approval is implemented, does the minister know how many applications this measure will remove from the backlog?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr. Chair, it will remove a number from the backlog, because quite simply, if you're skydiving out of a plane, you're going to have knee problems, and if you're a gunner, you're going to have ear problems. These things should be done automatically, and that's exactly what we're working on. As I said before, other things are complicated. To make sure that the veteran receives the appropriate remuneration
The Chair: Unfortunately, that's all the time we have for today. The committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon.
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Project Manager: So we come to the third meetings . I have {gap} good .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um so in the last meeting we have discussed the functional design and now we will talk about the conceptual design . So we will talk about some specific details .
Industrial Designer: Okay so I think I will do my presentation on the components concept so can you please uh open uh {disfmarker} I'm participant two .
Project Manager: This {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Components design .
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Okay so uh the first thing uh I have done is to to made a review together with the uh manufactural uh department and have which components was uh available to build a remote control . So for energy sources we have we have to choose between the solar energy , hand dynamo and uh kinetic um well uh kinetic uh technique {vocalsound} to to store the energy .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We also um {vocalsound} we also can put a regular battery in the in the remote control . Now {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh this is what we have decided in the last meeting . But if we use battery {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah b uh f well uh I meant uh by by battery I meant uh I will not have a uh a wire between the remote control and the energy source but uh I didn't fou we didn't decide yet which kind of battery we will put inside the the remote . So uh it's a point to discuss . Then uh the case material we have uh uh also several choices , like wood , rubber , titanium or latex . {vocalsound} But uh well it's not a a re uh well a real issue for the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} from the technical uh point of view . Concerning the interface uh we can we can put mm just simple buttons or scrolls or buttons uh much more complicated , but it also requires that the chip to process the button is more complicated so .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And uh this is the last point , the choice of chips . So what I have f found is that I think basic battery or kinetic uh energy uh collection is the is the better way to provide energy because I think solar energy wi won't work {vocalsound} in a cluttered uh {vocalsound} uh environment .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: So um so I think we can start with these two main things . For the case uh well uh I think that uh titanium is um is a good choice because it's trendy and it's uh it's uh well it's modern and uh user are are are {disfmarker} mm will be uh very happy to have a {vocalsound} a a nice remote . For the interface uh I think that we can ach achieve uh all the desired functionalities by s just uh using uh rubber buttons , simple buttons and th thus this allow to use a regular chip {vocalsound} that are uh well cheaper . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: And s so uh we can move to the next slide .
User Interface: Sorry .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: What is this single curved {disfmarker} what does it mean ?
Industrial Designer: Well uh uh i i it's uh it's the the shape of the um of the remote .
User Interface: So it's it's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You you will have the {disfmarker} well um the the curve will fit into your hand when you grab the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yo l yeah . When you hold on it , it is comfortable to hold .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . It's more confog f comfortable that if these uh it's completely flat .
User Interface: Okay . Yeah . And the battery , is it kind of a rechargeable or it doesn't matter ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah the um that's the point . The kinetic one is uh y you can recharge uh by the um {disfmarker}
User Interface: That that's what it means by kinetic .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah and by {disfmarker} well by just by moving the ar uh your arm the mm well the remote will uh accumulate energy .
User Interface: Okay . Mm-hmm . Okay .
Industrial Designer: But I d I don't know it's {disfmarker} if it is feasible because I don't know if yet if if the user will move enough to provide the remote um all the necessary energy .
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound} Mm . Okay . Yeah . Yeah . We we might check with our R_ and D_ department to see if they have this product {vocalsound} ready for market . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} And {disfmarker} yeah and so can you go to the next slide please . So and uh that's uh that summarize well what I have said .
User Interface: Mm mm . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Wha
Industrial Designer: So uh you're right we can uh see in our uh R_ and D_ uh {vocalsound} if the kinetic metal is sufficient to provide enough energy .
User Interface: Ah the department . Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's it .
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} So I um keep in touch with the R_ and D_ department .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I take care , it's all right .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So the titanium case is the normal case that {disfmarker} I'll show you some pictures that I have and you tell me whether they are titanium case or not .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} All right . Yeah .
User Interface: 'Cause I am not very sure , plastic , titanium or whatever . There's another point I want to make , is that the uh {disfmarker} well you've seen them I le na my presentation that um I point out some {disfmarker} why buttons are not the mm not the only ways you can {vocalsound} use {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , maybe n
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We will , okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Three .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} So the user interface is uh i it uses the aspect uh of a computer system , a programme which can be seen or heard or otherwise perceived by the human user
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: and the commands and mechanism the user uses to control its operation and input data . So you s this gives you the ways to input data and we have uh {disfmarker} we are more {disfmarker} we emphasise more on the graphical user interface here . The idea is to represent buttons as figures , diagrams , symbols and on so you you can easily when you look at the symbols you understand what it is doing .
Project Manager: What's the function of this button .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . So .
Project Manager: I think it makes the the interface really {disfmarker}
User Interface: Ea easy to use . So next one .
Project Manager: Graphical user interface {gap} .
User Interface: {gap} function five . So I can use the button , the mouse maybe .
Project Manager: A graphical user interface emphasise the use of pictures .
User Interface: Yeah . So next line . So the {disfmarker} here are some examples . So they cluster the buttons together . They group them into col they colour them and uh they have different forms as well . Mm but this interface are kind of confusing . Uh basically there are too many buttons . Right . Next one .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: So some people are propose voice recognition and so {disfmarker} ah by the way I receive an email from the from one our departments saying that the voice recognition has been used in the coffee machine {vocalsound} for this by a company
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: when you tell the {disfmarker} you say good morning coffee machine and the machine are reply to you . So I just got an email saying that .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm mm mm .
User Interface: And it seems like this voice recognition technology is ready to be used so we might consider that , supposedly .
Industrial Designer: Yeah fine .
User Interface: {vocalsound} The next one . Mm so somebody {disfmarker} some people use uh some people use a spinning wheel th with the L_C_ display so instead of using the mm buttons you have a L_C_D_ screen and then there you can u you can use that as buttons , you can use that as real {disfmarker} so so that could be an option as well . Touch screen , I mean .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Next one . And some people propose a scroll button . Integrated with push buttons or you may have scroll button instead of p just the push button . Like the one we have here . Uh , next one . So mm
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: so there are a few aspects that I collected here . So s basically this deals with special users , children , handicapped people , old people , and uh mm and prog basically they are programmable , specially for children . And uh mm {disfmarker} yeah yeah . And then they also secure uh covers , to protect uh secure and hidden programming and battery covers that will protect your settings . So {disfmarker} But we don't have to integrate all these complicated features . I'm just saying that the {disfmarker} currently in the market there are there are control there are remote controllers f {gap} customisable for different people . Yeah , so that's the point . The next one . And uh you see this is the one where you have the protection cover . Mm maybe useful for children , they migh you you they only see the buttons outside . And for adults wh where you have more control you can see the one inside . So the adults might wanna have a key to lock that to pr so children will not touch the button inside .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: S a good idea .
User Interface: The next one .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So this guy {disfmarker} this is another company that provides big buttons . At {disfmarker} I see that that is useful for old people and then you don't get it lost . But for our product we don't need a big one because you have voice recognition e eventually with use .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: And you can call your remote controller if you don't know where it is .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} T_V_ remote controller where are you ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And then , he will beeps and to say that I am here , {vocalsound} for example .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} We should include speech synthesis in this case , no ?
User Interface: Is it possible ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Uh ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but uh as Norman say if uh there is uh already a commercial product available who t who do this we we can check uh to integrate it i into our uh new remote control .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . And uh , this is another one where you can uh {disfmarker} the the the part that's a V_ standing for the volume . So there's a up arrow and a down arrow . But you the see that in the V_ , the V_ appears to be the down arrow on the top {disfmarker} on the top up arrow {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: up arrow there's a V_ like as as if it's turning down so it's confusing interface , so I wanna avoid this kind of thing in the design .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
User Interface: And here are {disfmarker} is uh here is a s short summary that I summary that I compiled after the findings I found . Big buttons are convenient , voice recognition helps , push buttons , scroll buttons , spinning wheels can be used as navigation tools . And uh user customisable is important and finally simplicity simplicity is the key . Yeah . So {vocalsound} we have many concepts there
Industrial Designer: Hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: but we have to choose later on which ones are important to be used .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: And basically uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well I {vocalsound} I think you it's it's it's fine you have uh reviewed all all the possibilities
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but uh uh well uh i if we consider that uh the user interface is displayed on the T_V_ screen I don't think we nee uh we need much buttons in the remote
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: since we we just have to navigate and to have a okay or enter key or things like that ,
User Interface: Yeah . Mm .
Industrial Designer: because uh adding wheels or scrolls uh makes the thing more complicated and more expensive also , so .
User Interface: Mm . Okay .
Project Manager: Or maybe we can include the user manual in the in the remote control {gap} and we should have just a button like help and you say uh and you ik you press the button help and maybe you see the the user m might in the in the T_V_ .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . That's a good idea .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: To have a help button .
User Interface: A help button .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: So you are display on the screen .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: On T_V_ T_V_ screen .
User Interface: So {disfmarker} on the T_V_ screen .
Industrial Designer: On the T_V_ screen . On the T_V_ screen the uh how to use your remote .
Project Manager: So just you push the button
User Interface: Okay . Okay . Okay .
Project Manager: and we will {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh .
User Interface: So that eliminates all the complicated documentation {gap} ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: okay . So wi
Marketing: But people are often enough looking at the help ,
Project Manager: If the if {disfmarker}
Marketing: once they see the help button they say oh this is a complicated stuff .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No {vocalsound} In the case where they need help , in the case where they need help .
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's a psychology .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} In a marketing point of view .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: And let us see what the market demands .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: We could just go to my presentation .
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} uh wel well I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's just for user customizable , for kids or old people .
Marketing: Yeah that's right .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean it just showed us the remote with an cap which could be used for kids and if you remove the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So it's the same {disfmarker}
Marketing: Same remote with some {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Can be used by both kids and old people .
Marketing: Both yeah .
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound} Well uh what I s propose is that uh you know a remote controller , i {vocalsound} it could be a cube ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: is uh a small device that uh looks like a cube and maybe you can just change the {vocalsound} um the buttons , if you ch turn one side you get one one buttons , you turn the other side you get the other buttons , so for maybe new generation people who get used to the computer they want lots of controls . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Maybe for kids , kids they like uh t no l they like to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Small {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh well .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So le le let's see what uh what {vocalsound} people want .
User Interface: Let's see the market demand .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And then we can decide what what we can {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: What what {gap} market {disfmarker} yes yes .
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: So we just made an marketing survey of what people need from our remotes and how it could be special from the other remotes . And we got the best on the responses from the questionnaires . Uh we also have some prizes for the most creative solutions . And we found the following solutions which we could {disfmarker} which would be helpful for our design . So seventy percent of the users , they find their remote controls very ugly , they don't find it pleasant to use in the size or usage or anything . And eighty percent of the people they are always l I mean they are willing to spend more money if the remote control would look fancy . And the current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . And seventy five percent of the users said they zap a lot .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: And fifty percent say they use only ten percent of the buttons ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: so the rest of the ninety percent of the buttons they're not used most of the times .
User Interface: Yeah . Yes .
Marketing: So this were the findings which we found . And also they cited frustrations with the present remote controls . Most of {disfmarker} fifty percent of the time the remote controls are lost somewhere in the room and people are always searching for them {vocalsound} rather than watching the T_V_ .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: And by the time they found the remote control the program is finished .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So {vocalsound} they're frustrated a lot {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And um if the remote control is too complicated it takes much time to learn the functionality of it .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm , the functionalities yeah .
Marketing: So you can just see the percentage , fifty percent people they responded that they always lose their remotes and thirty four percent they say that it's quite difficult to learn if it's too complex .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: So keeping in view all these findings and the frustrations I think this should be the solution for them . We should have an L_C_D_ on the rem remote control .
User Interface: Oh .
Industrial Designer: Well mm w well I I I don't really see the advantage of having uh L_C_D_ on the on the remote control if we have a a a big screen and uh display on the screen .
User Interface: Big screen .
Industrial Designer: It's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm ?
Industrial Designer: yeah of course it's fancy trendy and so on but it's it's expensive to produce {vocalsound} and it's not really {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean as our survey says that people are willing to pay more if their remotes are fancy .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So if we have a L_C_D_ on the remote , rather than looking onto the T_V_ you just look into a remote and navigate it . It's the same menu as we have saw that iPod remote control .
User Interface: Mm yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah .
User Interface: Mm . The thing {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: We just {vocalsound} play around
Industrial Designer: Yeah but when you play with the iPod you don't have {vocalsound} a big screen in front of you , s
Project Manager: You can use this screen instead of the big se screen ,
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: instead of use the {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: If you re-use the existing screen , we element {disfmarker} eliminate the L_C_D_ , after all the L_C_D_ just to display
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: and if you have the colourful screen you can make the display colourful , fancy , as fancy as the one on the L_C_D_ ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: maybe even better .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean this were the points which we got from the market demands .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So
Industrial Designer: So I th I I {vocalsound} well I think we we can focus on the uh on the fancy look on the uh
User Interface: Yeah . More on a fancy design .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah that's fine .
Industrial Designer: on the speech recognition if the technology is available
Marketing: Yeah . I mean that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but well I think L_C_D_ will uh will uh make us spend a lot of money for not so big results .
User Interface: Mm . Remember we have a s budget for the cost of producing the remote controller .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: But {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . So i is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh yeah we have uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: so the thing is you can find out how much an L_C_D_ will cost and then we'll decide again . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I mean that should be found out by the Industrial Designers . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh maybe you can find out the price and tell us next time {gap} . Is i if i
Industrial Designer: So price of uh L_C_D_ display .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker}
Marketing: And it's always good to have an voice recognition for the remote controls .
User Interface: Yeah . And also the cost for the speech recognition .
Project Manager: Mm . It's for {disfmarker}
User Interface: Ask our R_ and D_ department .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: it's just for small vocabulary . We {disfmarker} it's not {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah it's o only for a limited vocabulary ,
Project Manager: yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . And ho
Marketing: say eighty commands or so .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah okay .
User Interface: And also the scroller button , how much will it cost . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker} Well uh compared to the to s the simpl simpler simplest button .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Push push {gap} .
Marketing: Mm , the scroll button , {gap} from the survey we never see that people would like to have some scrolling button .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah I think that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Because they they just they're just frightened to use the scrollings or {vocalsound} help button .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah I I I think that uh well uh as we have seen in the in the presentation uh well uh about uh uh fifty percent of the of the percent n choose the button
User Interface: Don't use the buttons .
Industrial Designer: so uh I think to have uh five uh simple button is sufficient for our functionality .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: It doesn't mean that the other buttons are not necessary or important .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Important .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But they are just less used compar
Marketing: They're not used much .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: But the uh the thing is is i is that we can add a functionality on the on the T_V_ screen
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: like uh a a list of function
User Interface: Yeah . Mm .
Industrial Designer: and then you choose with the with the button to {disfmarker} well you navigate
User Interface: Yeah , yeah . So so the at most {disfmarker} more power uh .
Industrial Designer: and you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Or maybe we can u uh or maybe we can uh make this the ten percent of button more bigger than the others .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But if i i if we if we could have a a a display uh g a user interface that is very complete on the T_V_ screen {vocalsound} I think that just five buttons are sufficient ,
User Interface: Yep .
Industrial Designer: one to go up left right down and uh enter
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and you you you just select the functionality you want to access or things like that .
User Interface: Mm . Mm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You don't have to to switch to a channel to another uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Or it could be like this , as the people say , if they have a L_C_D_ on the remote not on the television . Because when you have the L_C_D_ onto the television screen you miss the picture in the background , we are most focused on the commands .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but {disfmarker}
Marketing: So if you have then L_C_D_ in the remote , you just have a menu , and increasing and lower these signs here to change the programs and this menu when you press the menu , in the L_C_D_ displays as you go on pressing the menu it faster displays volume , then the program , then the brightness , contrast and all the stuff .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} Yeah but if you look at the L_C_D_ you you don't look at the T_V_ screen
Marketing: And accordingly you can just increase or decrease .
Project Manager: It's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm . Mm .
Industrial Designer: so {vocalsound} i i it's not really worth to get {disfmarker} to have the image if you don't look at , so .
User Interface: I if {disfmarker} Mm . Mm .
Project Manager: And I think it's increases the cost of the the remote control if you use L_C_D_ . I {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah that has to be checked out .
User Interface: I think that there's no contradiction here , because if there are few buttons , you don't have to look at your your controller any more because you know where the buttons are , so if you wanna control the screen d sh sharpness you just say sharpness
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: and then you t turn {disfmarker} you just press lef increase or decrease button
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and the same for the volume and the channel , {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: if you had the speech recognition there you just shout your channel , just tell your channel and then you don't even have to look at the butto at the controller so finally that wil eliminates the the need for L_C_D_ ,
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: with the help of speech recogniser you can {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean , {gap} better if we could just check all the cost with L_C_D_
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: and also with the speech recognition .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: And then we could find which would would be a more suitable in this case .
User Interface: Mm . Mm . {vocalsound} Yeah . A and {disfmarker}
Marketing: And the third problem was to find the remote control . Always , so fifty percent of the people say they lose the remotes .
Industrial Designer: Well so we we can think about a well a a vocal command like uh find
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: and {vocalsound} when the remote control uh hears fine well yeah just uh to make him beep or t
Project Manager: You will listen to a peep , {vocalsound} special peep .
User Interface: Where {gap} , yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah that's right , that's exactly what I mean by voice commander .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Or it could be also something like this ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: uh it's always boring to change the batteries of the remotes control ,
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: so we have some one charger there and whenever we don't use the remote control we put it in the charger .
User Interface: Put it back at the charge .
Industrial Designer: Put {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: And when we're using that t remote and if we misplace somewhere , in the charger we have a small button , and just by pressing the button in the charger the uh remote control beeps , wherever it is .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . And that's a good idea , that's simple , like in phones .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: I mean it doe it also doesn't require a voice command ,
Project Manager: But you don't you don't have to move the the charger .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: because there are problems with a voice command .
User Interface: Hmm . Mm . {vocalsound} Th yeah . Mm yeah . Yeah . Mm .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: You have to keep it {gap} .
Marketing: I mean charger would be fixed
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: because it's always with electricity plugged .
Industrial Designer: Yeah if there if there uh there is nuff not enough battery . Also and uh uh the remote is lost .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Mm . There's {disfmarker} mm . Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah that's right .
User Interface: That {disfmarker} we can {disfmarker} what we can do is we can program a function whereby when you press the switch off T_V_ button , the off button , the remote there be s uh instruction on the screen , please charge charge me . You never get it lost
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: because uh every time you're off the computer {vocalsound} {disfmarker} the T_V_ you are asked the the command the T_V_ com remote controller would tell you to put it back to where {disfmarker} to the charger .
Marketing: It's an good reminder ,
User Interface: Yeah . So you will never get lost {gap} {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: yeah that's right .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Maybe for some people {gap} {vocalsound} lazy people .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah because everything is programmed inside .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah .
User Interface: So it's it's uh it's all about strategy , y
Marketing: And of course the final point is a fancy look .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: As we have seen earlier the remotes which were displayed by Norman they weren't fancy ,
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: They were ugly .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: I mean mm very big or something with lot of buttons .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} They {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: I think we should have something {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well the last one with the um {vocalsound} yeah with the two parts was uh {gap} original , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: With uh two two two parts controller .
Marketing: I mean {gap} uh I mean uh I mean uh you see if it's like that even a kid who wants to have a control he could just plug it and {vocalsound} use it , you can't avoid him .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: But you can have an button for child lock .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: So just by pressing the button with some code , you t you put a lock onto the remote , so that he can't use even {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm . Mm . Mm . Mm .
Industrial Designer: Well we can think about uh having uh on the on the on the user interface when you switch on the T_V_ you can uh well write a code or choose a category , if it is kids , uh things like that .
Marketing: Mm uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm . Yeah . Mm .
Marketing: That's right .
Project Manager: Or maybe you have to to show some specific programmes for kids and then just just {disfmarker} yeah just push uh kids button so it's automatically
User Interface: Mm . {gap} these are probl yeah . Mm . Mm . Mm .
Project Manager: {gap} . So if he {gap} .
Marketing: I think these other four points they're the market demands and so it's for the user interface design and industrial design to just think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So for mm {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: yeah . So for my part I will check the prices the um the prices difference uh of what to use , where to use , and s uh and so on .
Marketing: Yeah I think it should be clearer for us in the next meeting that th uh these {gap} could be included .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound} I think we need to define also a s the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: because uh if you want {gap} uh say we can sort by channels or sort by T_V_ programs , you have to decide a category of vocabularies for them . If numbers , they're easy ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: but if {gap} name the channel by by name {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well I think we can we can have just numbers for channels and you can say to your remote control like uh sports and then on the T_V_ you have a list with with uh uh well with sports program playing now
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: and and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: No , we have a problem there . You see uh if you have a voice commands and you are s you are watching a score on uh {disfmarker} basketball score or something , and if the score comes twenty four thirty five , you've just say twenty five
Project Manager: Yeah it's {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: and suddenly {vocalsound} the screen the channel goes to twenty five .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: That's right , yeah , yeah .
Marketing: So I think there should be a prefix to some numbers {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well but well e every possible word uh has a probability to come about of the T_V_ so . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I mean the the {disfmarker} you just check all the probability that saying T_V_ twenty five and just ordinary twenty five .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
Marketing: Ordinary twenty five you almost there's a probability of being said around sixty seventy percent
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but well {disfmarker} okay .
Marketing: and T_V_ twenty five I dunno it will be round about one or two percent .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: So it's better to have some prefix {gap} before the number .
User Interface: But I I I think that the user would like wou would like to associate the channel or call the channel rather than than the numbers .
Marketing: Yeah something , some code .
User Interface: You say numbe channel number five of the T_V_ correspond to something else in the channel .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
User Interface: So some people may want to say , I want to see this channel .
Industrial Designer: Mm mm . Well I {disfmarker}
Marketing: That will be too big .
Project Manager: Or just {disfmarker}
Marketing: And it will be difficult for the vocabulary also .
User Interface: Yeah . Check with the v R_ and D_ department the capability of recogniser .
Project Manager: It's difficult to to just say the the name of the channel . It will be difficult to say just the name of the channel .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh ?
Project Manager: Because you have to s t uh a ch
User Interface: Well , it's convenient for the user .
Project Manager: yeah but you have to to have all the name of the channel in your vocabulary .
Marketing: Als might be you just forgot the channel name , you kno only know the number .
Project Manager: Or maybe {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Or maybe the user can create his own vocabulary ,
User Interface: The {disfmarker} uh uh mm . {vocalsound} Mm .
Project Manager: just pronouncing the the name of channels and include in the vocabulary .
User Interface: I I think that I have {disfmarker} mm mm {vocalsound} I think there's another way you can do is that uh you can uh {vocalsound} if {disfmarker} when the user ch press a button to choose the channel for example , then what you can do is that the {disfmarker} you can make the T_V_ screen to split them into small little little squares of images where you you you have a snapshot of every channel , so let's say it's a four by four matrix of the images , so now what you do is f looking at the all the sixteen channels available at one time , you just use the control button uh , you just you you just choose the the option you want
Marketing: Yeah , the {gap} .
User Interface: and then you just hit the button and then you go to that channel . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Or lets the user create his own vocabulary of channel .
User Interface: Mm . So you you don't use the speech recogniser in that way .
Project Manager: No . Just you have uh in the beginning you have uh t you have to train {disfmarker} you have to create the vocabulary by yourself .
User Interface: Oh , okay . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well I uh I also {disfmarker}
Project Manager: By associating each channel with the name or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I I also think about uh another problem , if if there is uh more than one person who is watching T_V_ {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And for each one has his own . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: the s well the the speech uh r recogniser should be able to distinguish between the two .
Marketing: Yeah yeah , {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Because uh I remember when I was a {vocalsound} young child with my sister we {disfmarker} yeah we always want to w to watch different emission at the at the same time
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Or you have to s {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , I wanna watch this , I wanna watch that .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so it's a pr it could be a problem if uh if well if someone passes by when you are watching T_V_ and say oh T_V_ thirty {vocalsound} and just run , s
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: A and in the same lines we would have a {disfmarker} one more problem . If we are using the television in the different environments , say in the factories or in the shops where there is a lot of noise and this voice commands if they fail to work , that would bring a bad name {disfmarker} bad uh reputation for our company .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: So I think we should specify some pre-requirements if we want to use a voice commands , say that it should be used in an silent homely environment or s something .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Or we can switch on or switch off the the special {gap} , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah that's right that should be an option .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah that's {disfmarker} well I think that's a good uh a good option because it's simple and uh simple to implement also , so .
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: I think these are the practical problems . So we need to take care of them in the design .
Project Manager: Maybe we'll discuss them in next meeting .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's time to close this meeting .
User Interface: Well , you you stay a five minutes . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah {gap} . {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh it came there on three minutes back so we are {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I think we can just press the okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Thanks for your collaborations .
Industrial Designer: So I see ya .
Marketing: Okay . See you another thirty minutes .
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doc_19
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Project Manager: Okay , welcome to the detailed design meeting . Again , I'm gonna take minutes . Oh , we're gonna have a prototype presentation first .
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Uh , who's gonna give the prototype presentation ? You two guys ? Okay . Go ahead .
Industrial Designer: Yes . {vocalsound} {gap}
User Interface: {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} coffee .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: 'Kay , we've made a prototype . Um , we've got uh {vocalsound} uh our aspects from the last meeting . Uh , especially we looked at the form , material and the colour . Um , we've uh drawn here the p prototype . The logo is uh is uh {vocalsound} is pretty uh {vocalsound} obvious to see on the on the remote control ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but it is necessary when you want to build your uh company f to a level higher . Um , {vocalsound} our interface elements , there are shown in the in the drawing . Maybe you can uh point them uh {disfmarker} The functions .
User Interface: Uh , well the uh {disfmarker} all the functions are discussed uh {disfmarker} I think the most of the functions are uh uh obvious . Uh , it's a little bit . Uh , power button . Uh then the the the nine uh channels .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh the volume uh uh at the side , and the other side is the programmes . And then we had uh just uh two buttons , we place them in the middle , uh the menu , and for the teletext
Project Manager: Oh no , the the the mute button misses now .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I thought that was th
Marketing: Alright , I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do y do you {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh , the mute button .
Project Manager: did we want to have a m mute button ?
Industrial Designer: But uh that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's uh here then , in the middle .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Huh .
Marketing: Alright , and uh you gotta point out which is the volume um uh button and which is the programme button .
Industrial Designer: Yes , um
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well , yeah mo uh mo
Industrial Designer: we've disc
User Interface: Yeah , well most of them are right-handed .
Industrial Designer: Most of the users
Marketing: Yeah , but you you gotta make it clear on the {disfmarker} on {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah well , I don't have time in uh anymore on the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes , y there there will be a p a little a little P_ on that and a little uh {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , and a and a triangle on that .
User Interface: Oh yeah , just progr programme above , I think .
Marketing: Yes . Next to that I kinda miss a zero actually .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wait , there's {disfmarker} was one thing I wanted to ask .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh , there are different ways for remote controls to uh {vocalsound} do uh like
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: uh d I call it teens and twenties . Uh , y th th th the two numbers .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: All n no , that's um {vocalsound} kinda dependent on the television .
User Interface: Yeah , true , yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's a television . Yes .
Project Manager: Yeah , but do we have {disfmarker} do we need extra buttons ,
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} for example some uh some have to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh I think so .
Marketing: I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes , yes , you have you have a lot of standard buttons that has to be uh on it , uh th with the one and a double uh uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , I think you should add {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Zero ?
Marketing: A cross , or whatever . Yeah , line .
Project Manager: Yeah , but you don't you don't actually need them ,
User Interface: May maybe here ?
Industrial Designer: yes .
Project Manager: becau b l a lot of remote controls work that y when y that you when you fir you push the one first , then you have a couple of seconds {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . And then a second .
Marketing: No , that's dependent on the television .
Project Manager: No , I don't think so .
Industrial Designer: Yes , you have televisions , then you have to , you know , you have to uh press {disfmarker}
Marketing: I do know so .
User Interface: Is it depending on television ?
Project Manager: Nah , I don't think so really ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: because you have a {disfmarker} I know some remote controls that don't have these buttons , but you still can , know , obviously you can still select the twenty {disfmarker} uh a number in the twenty or in the ten .
Industrial Designer: Yes , but but a lot {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes , but uh uh no uh remote control nowadays are um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they come with the television . Or actually , the other way around .
Project Manager: No , I think {disfmarker} uh I really think it's n
Marketing: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because you can {disfmarker} when when you put a button on it with like one and uh then a dash , it's the same thing as when you just push the one ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: because it i it first gives you the functionality of that that uh separate button you also had to uh apply .
Industrial Designer: Yes , but
Marketing: Yeah , well {disfmarker} but su {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: some televisions don't accept uh that that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , because that's i it's for television . It's exact the same thing .
Industrial Designer: No , no , but s
Marketing: No no no . So some television respond differently . Look , if uh i i
Project Manager: No , listen listen . When you push the button , the remote control gives a signal . I in th in the first place it gives a signal which it would also send when you put a separate button on it .
Marketing: Yes . Yes , that's true .
Project Manager: The one with dash , that signal gi and when y whe when you don't push another button on the remote control within five seconds , then the remote control gives a signal for channel one .
User Interface: Yeah . True .
Marketing: No {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it works that way , really .
Marketing: No , it it it works uh if you haven't got uh a special button for it , uh if you push a one , then on your television there will appear a one and a a line , which is an empty space .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , but it's exact the same {gap} that w would appear when you put a separate button {disfmarker} push a separate button .
Industrial Designer: Yes , but some some old televisions uh you have to uh click on uh a special button , uh then you go to a a next level , you can push two buttons .
Project Manager: Yeah , but you don't underst uh you don't understand my point .
Marketing: Yep . {vocalsound} True .
Project Manager: I think it's exact the same thing when y
Industrial Designer: You want {disfmarker} Yes , but some television don't support it .
Project Manager: No , but then they would a would also support that button , because it's the same thing .
User Interface: But the ex
Project Manager: Listen , with {disfmarker} that that's that special but button {gap} you're talking about , eh ? That's just a signal to recei ju they send a t signal to the v tv T_V_ that they have to put a one in {disfmarker} on your screen and a dash , which you can pu so you can uh still put another number on it . When you don't have that separate button , and you push y one , it's exactly the same thing . Do y you {disfmarker} the remote control gives that same signal as it would give when you only had {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No ,
Marketing: No , s some some televisions need the input first uh and and you c
Industrial Designer: a remote can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes ,
Project Manager: But you give the input .
Industrial Designer: so they need {disfmarker} no , they need {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You push the one . That's the same thing as the button with the one and it {disfmarker}
Marketing: No , that's not true .
Project Manager: yes it it is .
Marketing: It's simply not true . It's simply not true .
Project Manager: Think about it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: No ,
User Interface: You uh you can wai when you push the one you can show on the telly a one and just a dash , and then wait uh two uh seconds or something {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And it's the same thing what happens and a g remote control gives another signal after five seconds that is just one .
Marketing: No , remote control doesn't give signal after five seconds . Remote control is a stupid thing . If you push a button , it sends it immediately to to the television .
Project Manager: Yeah , that's true . Yeah , but I m uh but it's {disfmarker} I I know for sure that some televisions that w th th the remote control supplied , only ha has the c these buttons with a one and a dash and a two and a dash , but when you use a bu a n remote control that doesn't sport these buttons , it still works .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But okay , we we'll impl
Marketing: No , definitely not . Definitely not .
User Interface: We'll discuss them in the usability lab .
Project Manager: No , we'll apply them then for now .
User Interface: Uh eva evaluation .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I don't know uh I don't know if if it's it's necessary .
Project Manager: Yeah , app just apply them next to the zero , the one and the two .
User Interface: Yeah ?
Project Manager: Yeah , I think so . Yeah , for now , if we don't know for sure whether {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: And the button for the SCART uh audio video uh external input .
Marketing: Yes .
User Interface: Ach .
Project Manager: Yeah but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh , you can access that uh via zero , and then minus , I guess .
Project Manager: okay . {vocalsound} What I said about uh the remote control sending another signal , that that might not be true ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: but I still think i it it {disfmarker} all T_V_s in some ways support it , I don't know . I think it's more c is m maybe we don't {disfmarker} uh we both don't really understand how it i how it really works ,
Industrial Designer: No , no .
Project Manager: but I think there's more to in than wha than what you just said .
Industrial Designer: Uh , remote control sends one signal at one button uh press .
Project Manager: I do think that uh m T_V_s support mur multiple kind of remote controls . M
Industrial Designer: Uh , some {disfmarker} N some televisions when when you want to go further than uh ten {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Th won't work wi with uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No , you have to you have to uh give the television uh two or more signals .
Project Manager: to have that special button .
Industrial Designer: When you uh press one button , you give one signal . And the older televisions need more signals to go a level higher . But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , well we'll see .
Marketing: Yep .
Industrial Designer: When you make the technology that that it will uh give more signals , it could work , but {disfmarker} Just a basic idea of of of the most uh {disfmarker} most y most common uh and simple uh operations on the remote .
Marketing: Okay . I kinda miss the docking station .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes . It's here on the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: yeah , uh there's nothing {disfmarker} I think it's pretty basic ,
Industrial Designer: We came uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: the the {disfmarker} there's no fu
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: there's one there's one button ,
Marketing: No nothing really trendy about it .
User Interface: that's wha there's there's there's one function and that's n the one button when you want to find it .
Industrial Designer: But maybe we can maybe we can make the docking station uh uh a bit standard for for uh the other products we sell ,
Marketing: The button .
Industrial Designer: because Real {vocalsound} Real Reaction sells more products than only remote controls . So maybe we can uh use the docking station , for example , uh M_P_ three players or or uh
Marketing: Yep .
Industrial Designer: uh hearing devices .
Marketing: I think that's very difficult , because of different shapes of uh uh devices .
Industrial Designer: Yes , but when you put that same volt voltages on it , you can put uh {disfmarker} when the when the when uh o the the the lowest part of it , when it's o the same as the other products , you can put it all on the same uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , of course . Mm-hmm . Well it it got it {disfmarker} it has got to fit into the shape , of course .
Industrial Designer: Yes , but we can make {disfmarker}
Marketing: The technology and the voltage can be the same . That's uh that's true . But uh i if you all make the m having a bottom like this , then they all fit .
Industrial Designer: No , we can make uh make the most lowest part all the same .
Marketing: Yeah , that's true , but uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: When when the the recharger has a has a bit what points out , we can place all on top of it . Just have to be big enough for the biggest {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes , but uh I I g Shouldn't it fall then ? It {disfmarker} isn't going to fall down ? {vocalsound} That's a bit uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No , when you make it large enough no it it will not .
Marketing: yeah , I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But then it's a little bit {disfmarker}
Marketing: No , but if if {disfmarker} like this , I'll I'll point it out , if you got uh a a a base a base like this ,
Industrial Designer: But it's just an idea .
Marketing: I won't draw it really . If you got a base which is uh as big as this {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But it's flat it's flat as as this , so we can p make all the products as flat as this .
User Interface: You can . But i i i it's backwards .
Marketing: Yeah sure , but if you got if you got a tiny player , it can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes , but when you make uh uh a bit of big {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: But it's it's backwards . It's leaning . It's leaning backwards , I think , in the in the docking station .
Marketing: Yeah . Uh , wha what you could do if you uh {disfmarker} from the bottom {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's text . {vocalsound}
Marketing: oh , right , help .
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh , you could make like a hole in it , you know , of uh {disfmarker} in in the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes , little holer {disfmarker} littler {disfmarker} Uh , little products go deeper in it .
Marketing: Yeah . That i that is possible , yep .
Project Manager: Well let's ha let's talk about the docking station later , because uh maybe we have we have to uh consider the docking station anyway , because we have some uh cost issues {vocalsound} still to come .
Marketing: Yeah , sure , you're right .
Industrial Designer: Yes . And uh uh
Marketing: Oh .
Project Manager: But we have to look n I don't know .
Industrial Designer: the f the look and feel would be great on this uh remote control , because uh you always uh will uh pick up the remote control in the in the smallest uh area .
Marketing: I don't like the colours . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Then your uh left thumb of uh {disfmarker} your right thumb is uh near the programme uh button , which is the most common used uh function , and all the other buttons are available for your uh thumb .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So it's it's it's really good design .
Marketing: Yeah . Alright .
Project Manager: Yes . That's it ?
Industrial Designer: Yes , uh on the side uh there will be a strip of rubber , and in the middle uh there is uh a hard uh a hard material , a bit hard plastic with a light uh behind it .
Marketing: The light . Okay . And other lights ?
Project Manager: I think added lights are gonna be a problem too .
Industrial Designer: Yes , we can make also n neon lights on it , or or the buttons that can make uh light on it .
Marketing: No , o on the on the front . Yeah , okay . Maybe the uh the logo .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: {gap} lights ?
Industrial Designer: But , it will also uh uh use batteries ,
Marketing: Yeah , why not ?
Industrial Designer: and do we want to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Of course .
Project Manager: Okay . For now , uh this is uh is good enough .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah , what was uh on the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: The {disfmarker} all the aspects of the interface buttons were uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , but in the {disfmarker} oh yeah , the colour , because we're gonna use uh one colour for the the plastic enclosure and one colour for the rubber , isn't it ? Then we're gonna do the buttons in the i are we're gonna have rubber buttons .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: And they're be a {disfmarker} {gap} they'll be in the same colour as the rubber on the side .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Uh , in the same colour as the side .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , I think I think that'll be good .
Project Manager: Okay . And I think we should use a a darker colour for the um plastic , and maybe some more m brighter and flashy stuff {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes , maybe we can use on the on the lights on the side we can use uh uh multiple uh lights ,
Marketing: Yes .
Industrial Designer: so it will uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , we'll talk about the lights later . 'Cause I also don yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: it's depends on the costs and such . But uh , and we have to agree uh upon the exact colours ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: but may I dunno if that's important , but we'll talk about that later . Okay , for now this is this is okay .
Marketing: We will .
Project Manager: Um , the next p y you gonna give a presentation too ? Uh , I have to see the agenda .
Industrial Designer: No .
Marketing: Well , uh yeah , I I'm gonna do something right there , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Detail design .
Marketing: We gotta do that on the right {vocalsound} {disfmarker} the most {disfmarker} right-most screen , because the leftmost {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Evaluation criteria .
Marketing: Yep , that's me .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Alright . I will be needing that image , so leave it please . Um {disfmarker} Go away . Right , we're gonna evaluate that design according to a few points . {vocalsound} Um , we g the four of us are going to do that um together .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I wanna have a colour over here , come on . Right , the remote {vocalsound} is not ugly , a bit weird sentence , but the positive things has to be on the left , so I {vocalsound} said not ugly instead of ugly .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh , what would you say , we we gotta give points to uh to all of these to evaluate uh that design , and please forget the drawing skills of these guys .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} The remote control is not ugly . How do you feel ?
Project Manager: Yeah , I think four maybe would be appropriate , because it's {disfmarker} Yeah , maybe it really depends on taste . Uh , I mean it's kind of {gap} , our design . It's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: so if maybe a lot of people find it really ugly , you know , o other people find it really cool .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Background colour .
Project Manager: I don't know or uh I don't know how you {disfmarker} Casting . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think I think the the fronts will give it a more uh uh uh less uglier uh side , because you can uh make it in your own {disfmarker}
Marketing: How do you guys feel ? The different designs .
Industrial Designer: yes , you can make it in your own uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: more to your own personality or or house style .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah , but we d we didn't {disfmarker} we're we're not planning to use fronts , I believe .
Marketing: No , not not fronts , but different designs .
Project Manager: With a colour a co a colours . Oh , okay .
User Interface: No , not fronts . Different designs . Different colours maybe , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: And that's still uh uh , yeah , is is uh is a little personal touch , I guess .
Project Manager: Okay , but {disfmarker} Oh , maybe we should do three or something that w you know , our {disfmarker}
Marketing: What ? Yeah , wha wha what would you uh guys uh think ? Personally .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Or forty . {vocalsound}
User Interface: We can make it a one .
Marketing: Personally . Yes , but what is it ?
Industrial Designer: I think two or three .
User Interface: Mm yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Guido ?
User Interface: I agree .
Marketing: Two or three .
User Interface: Um , I uh I go for the positive . So I go for two .
Marketing: I was {disfmarker} I was thinking about three , so I guess
Project Manager: Uh , I was thinking about four , so I think three is uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay , three .
Marketing: three is uh a bit uh {disfmarker} oh , what am I doing ? I'll mark it . The remote control's uh uh that n makes uh zapping easy .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah well , let that {disfmarker} let's make that a one . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: Two . One . One .
Marketing: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Antek , you agree ?
User Interface: Okay yeah , I'll I'll agree .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: That's one thing for sure .
Marketing: Yeah . You're not Antek .
User Interface: I'm the I'm the usability , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: I totally agree . The remote control the remote control's relevant buttons are prominently visible .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , two or a one , I guess .
User Interface: The {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's something we really put work into .
Marketing: Yeah , I {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's all about the buttons .
Marketing: I would say a one because uh every button is uh uh relevant . {vocalsound} And our {disfmarker} oh yeah , it's a b yeah . Yeah ? Alright . That's a one ? You agree ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: The remote control hasn't got too much redundant or unneeded buttons . I think we totally succeeded there .
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well maybe a two , because of the menu button or something .
Marketing: Oh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , well menu {disfmarker} Yeah , maybe .
Marketing: Yeah , that's true . That's true .
Project Manager: And telete
Industrial Designer: Also , the the the buttons of the one , the two , the the digits ,
Project Manager: Yeah , we don't know if the {disfmarker} uh they're necessary .
Industrial Designer: o they're used uh uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} the the {disfmarker} yeah , m well , you d you've got a point .
Project Manager: I think a two .
User Interface: Yeah , true . Yeah , I agree .
Industrial Designer: Can {disfmarker} yes , three , two .
Project Manager: Came a long way , but not {disfmarker} we didn't not uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Two or three ?
User Interface: Mm two .
Industrial Designer: But you can't make a remote control without them ,
Marketing: Two ? Antek .
User Interface: Because we got {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker}
Marketing: Nay that that that's true , that's true . They're definitely needed .
Project Manager: No , w w it can also always be more simplistic , but two is {disfmarker}
Marketing: So {disfmarker} we put it on a two ?
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: The remote control has got a really trendy look .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes . A one .
Project Manager: Yeah , uh a t I think a two .
Marketing: Maarten .
User Interface: Well .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah yeah , y i it's hard to say from this picture .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We {disfmarker} we've tried to make it uh the the best trendy look uh ever .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Ever , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Guido .
Project Manager: But I do think it's more {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh , I will I will make it a three , because uh {disfmarker} yeah . I I th
Project Manager: But I do think that it's more trendy than beautiful .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Yeah , uh I agree . I agree .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So so I think maybe it has to score higher uh on this than on the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . True , yeah .
Marketing: I was planning to give it a two , uh where I give the not ugly uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: A th a three .
Marketing: oh , yeah , that's true . You agree on the two ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I i uh when you compare to the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Great . Remote control hasn't got too much redundant or unneeded buttons .
Project Manager: Uh uh what's the difference with {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh , I copied that one . Well , uh forget that .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} Go away . Remote control has got innovative technology implanted .
User Interface: No . We're not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: well , maybe the the the {disfmarker} on the side .
Industrial Designer: No , not L_C_D_ , so .
Project Manager: Yeah , but we uh {disfmarker} {gap} you mean the rubber stuff ?
Marketing: Yeah , and the light .
Project Manager: Yeah , but we have t we have to talk about the lights uh .
User Interface: And the light maybe .
Industrial Designer: But that that's not innovative .
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And I don't u also it's also really not innovative ,
Industrial Designer: Lights lights are {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well , I g
Project Manager: it's more {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's not {disfmarker} seven ?
Project Manager: No , six . Or seven maybe , {vocalsound} yeah .
User Interface: Well , six . No , six .
Project Manager: Or six .
Industrial Designer: Six .
Marketing: Why uh why not a seven ?
User Interface: Six .
Project Manager: Yeah , mine is seven .
Industrial Designer: Because we've tried to make it a little bit innovative ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but it but it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh it's uh depends on the on the maybe {disfmarker}
Marketing: How ?
Industrial Designer: With the lights it {disfmarker} it's it's kind of future {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No , I think I think actually it's a seven maybe , but there's nothing innovative about it .
Marketing: Yeah , you think the lights are innovative ? Well , it's n true . Uh , I agree ,
Industrial Designer: But still you can retrieve it when it's when it's gone , with the {disfmarker} with {disfmarker}
Marketing: m but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Innovative in generally or just f original for {disfmarker}
Marketing: I'll {disfmarker} Yeah , you you didn't draw the docking station . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes . {vocalsound} The docking station is a is a little bit innovative .
Project Manager: N no no ,
Marketing: Yeah , it it's {disfmarker} I think I think with its {disfmarker}
Project Manager: t {gap} .
User Interface: A docking station is innova
Project Manager: Yeah , I mean the dock station , but but uh , I think the the docking station , {vocalsound} it's gonna be a {gap} kind of a problem .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's a part of the remote .
Marketing: I think more m
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And with the speaker on the {disfmarker} there's also a speaker .
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh that {disfmarker} that's n
Project Manager: Well , let's leave it open for uh for us later to see what , because we have to reevaluate anyway . Well I i {gap} yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: No ?
Marketing: No uh , well , the agenda says evaluate now , so I think we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , for now it's a six or a seven uh , sev
Marketing: It's it's a six .
Project Manager: six maybe ,
User Interface: Six .
Project Manager: because {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But the retrieval or the {disfmarker}
Marketing: That m f
Project Manager: Yeah , but I don't I don't know if it's very {vocalsound} inno yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , for the retrieval function . Yeah . I think that's very innovative for a remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah , v
Industrial Designer: Yes , {gap} how would you innovate a remote control more ?
Project Manager: Yeah , more through uh like function T_V_ functionalities and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: To put it on your head .
Project Manager: no no , you know what I mean .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You have {disfmarker} {gap} must be innovative technology for remote controls , but more in how you control stuff , not in how you find your {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah sure , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah . Yeah , it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: But I d I definitely don't think it's a five ,
Project Manager: that's that's {disfmarker} think about it la later on
Marketing: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Remote control is easy to use .
Project Manager: Yeah , as a a one or a two ma uh at least .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes .
User Interface: Yeah , a two .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: I think a two .
Project Manager: Yeah , it's good .
Marketing: Yeah ?
User Interface: More two .
Marketing: Come on . The remote control hasn't got uh {disfmarker} {gap} .
Project Manager: No , I would have seen {vocalsound} that one before . Oh , you skipped one uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I've just filled {disfmarker} uh
Project Manager: Uh , here .
Marketing: Go away .
Industrial Designer: You like the buttons . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I found twelve questions so much , but it still is ten .
Project Manager: Remote control will be bought by {disfmarker}
Marketing: It will be bought by people under the age of forty .
Project Manager: Yeah . Definitely .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: In in {disfmarker} and comparing with uh people of th of the age above ?
Marketing: No no no . No , just if they if they buy it .
Project Manager: Uh , just in general . Yeah , a two .
Industrial Designer: We don't know . But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but I think I think two .
Marketing: Yeah , what do you think ?
User Interface: Yeah , I think two , yeah . I agree . Two .
Marketing: Antek ?
Industrial Designer: Yes , two , but only in c when you compare it with with elderly .
Project Manager: Uh , that is not the question . It's just w it will be bought by people under forty .
Marketing: No , that's no comparison .
Project Manager: Yeah , you can {disfmarker} yeah , you can be very picky about it .
Marketing: And I don't mean two people .
Industrial Designer: This is just guessing .
Project Manager: Ah yeah , just make it {disfmarker} we'll make it a two .
Industrial Designer: Make it a two .
Marketing: W w
Industrial Designer: When it succeeds , uh it can get a two , mu
Marketing: Right , the rem The remote control has recognisable corporate image , colour , logo or slogan .
Project Manager: Oh no . Yeah . Yeah , you have make an
User Interface: We don't have the slogan though .
Project Manager: {disfmarker} slogan is quite obvious {gap} .
Marketing: Oh , the slogan .
Project Manager: Oh the {disfmarker} oh sorry , no , not not the slogan .
Marketing: Can we see the slogan ?
Project Manager: Yeah , you can put that on the side if {vocalsound} if we would like to .
User Interface: The logo .
Industrial Designer: A logo .
User Interface: Underneath it or something .
Industrial Designer: Yes , uh encrypted uh with {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , and I will I th still think it's gonna be a two or a three .
Marketing: Are we gonna do that ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} A three . Three .
Project Manager: Maybe a three this time .
User Interface: Yeah , a three .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Three ? I agree . Because of the slogan {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Remote control's got a basic design intended uh for novice users .
Project Manager: Uh , it's a one or a two .
User Interface: Yeah , two .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Yeah , make it a two .
User Interface: Two .
Marketing: Two ? Two . Alright . We gotta add up the scores now to see our total average . Four , five , seven , nine . Forget that . Fifteen , seventeen , twenty one , twenty four , twenty six . Twenty six . It's a two point six .
Project Manager: It's not that bad .
Marketing: Alright , we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , and that's mostly the inno
Marketing: yeah .
Project Manager: when we uh score higher on innovative technology , we would score two ,
Marketing: Yeah . True .
Project Manager: which is uh quite a great score . Okay . Uh , this is {disfmarker} was uh the evaluation ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} This was my evaluation . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Because I I still think that the most important part of this meeting still has {disfmarker}
Marketing: We did a pretty nice job until now .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Um , is this your {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Is there something after this uh meeting ? Or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Whatever . Well , I think we gotta fill out another questionnaire .
User Interface: No . Okay , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Still opened or uh {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , finance . Because um
User Interface: {vocalsound} Shoot .
Project Manager: I received uh a spreadsheet .
Marketing: A five . A five .
Project Manager: Yeah , but I uh actually don't need this presentation , I guess . Oh .
Marketing: Doesn't matter .
Project Manager: I'm gonna open the spreadsheet and we're gonna work this out together , because I didn't really fin uh I have a {gap} .
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Didn't really finish it . Well , we uh {disfmarker} We'll see . We'll stumble upon some problems .
Marketing: We probably will .
Project Manager: {gap} I probably have already opened it here . {gap} try it again . First of all , the mm all the docking station and costs and such are not included in this list . But let's let's st start with beginning . We include one battery . I i uh I'll explain its {disfmarker} Uh , the the components are listed over here . Uh , price is given . We um {disfmarker} yeah ,
Marketing: The amount , yeah .
Project Manager: we we uh indicate the amount of components of the specif specific component , how much we need of them . And then uh , we'll uh calcula Don't watch the number yet . I don't know if it's filled in properly . Okay , we need one battery . One battery . I think one battery is enough .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: We don't need kinetic , solar cells , hand dynamo . A s okay , this this is a p first problem . Uh , I think we should know how many simple chips , regular chips {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh it's it's one one chip , but but you have to choose one from it .
Project Manager: Okay . But {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The simple chip is e enough I I think , but with the lights with the lights and the retrieval , it can be uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Where did we find this information ? Was it {disfmarker}
Marketing: I haven't got an idea on on which we need to use , really .
Project Manager: I think it was uh your job in the first uh meet Uh , f your first presentation to make this clear , but then you had some t time problems .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: No , uh I {disfmarker} Yes , my my my uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The the email I got said uh simple chip , but when we put in the speaker and the retriever uh device , it will uh cost a a bit more , like I think the advanced chip {disfmarker} maybe .
Marketing: Yeah . And how do you know ? I mean , you got that email . Did it point out what to use them for ?
Industrial Designer: Bec No , the {disfmarker} they didn't know about a retriever or a speaker uh in it .
Project Manager: Maybe you can uh look it up right now . Okay , but {disfmarker} okay . When we don't {disfmarker} when we leave the uh retriever and such aside , what {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Then it's a simple chip .
Project Manager: then it would be a simple chip . And with the retriever , it would be an advanced chip .
Industrial Designer: Yes , I I I s I {disfmarker}
Marketing: Alright , well , point out the advanced chip for now , I guess .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: That will be enough for future uh recommendations .
Project Manager: Yeah , but it will it will it will be {disfmarker} cause a lot of problems . {vocalsound} The sample sensor {disfmarker} sample speaker . What is it m is that the speaker we were t I don't know what it is .
Industrial Designer: I don't know it uh either .
Marketing: I don't know .
Project Manager: Okay , we went for the double-curved case
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: made out of plastic and rubber . And with a special colour . I guess that's what we were {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , special colour . {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah , I don't know about the special colour , but I think w uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Otherwise , you get uh a standard uh plastic colour .
User Interface: I don't {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know if it's very special .
Project Manager: Yeah , I think we uh we have special colours .
User Interface: Mm okay .
Industrial Designer: Standard rubber .
Marketing: Alright , that's okay .
Project Manager: Okay , then the push-button , I was just counting them .
Industrial Designer: St {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh , I think you have to indicate the amount of push-buttons we want to use , isn't it ?
User Interface: Whoa , it's a little {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well that's bit of a problem ,
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: because I re but I really don't understand that , because I can imagine a remote control with far more push-buttons , and it wouldn't be possible according to this uh sheet .
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's huge . No . We have {vocalsound} the simplest buttons .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: No , it's only uh when you use push-buttons , it will cost that much .
Marketing: I don't think so , because it says amount .
Industrial Designer: If you use a scroll-wheel {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ah . Yeah , it wouldn't {disfmarker}
Marketing: The the the yellow row is the amount of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Fill in the number of components you plan to use in the {gap} and the total cost {disfmarker} I don't know . I
Industrial Designer: Maybe it's the kind of push-buttons . You can have f four kind of push-buttons .
User Interface: Uh , one til nine .
Industrial Designer: Rubber .
User Interface: Is that one or is that nine buttons ?
Industrial Designer: You can have uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And I count them like this . One two three uh four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve and thirteen .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Because {disfmarker} Oh , this is {disfmarker} oh , this is one , okay . Twelve , okay , then it would be eighteen , because uh , I uh rated them as uh um as uh uh uh separate buttons .
Marketing: To n
Industrial Designer: Different ,
Marketing: that's total of four buttons .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: yes .
Project Manager: And plus these two , f uh plus the mute button , and it's will be uh eighteen .
Marketing: I think that {disfmarker} Eighteen . One two three four five , si
Industrial Designer: Why is that so uh expensive .
Project Manager: Yeah , I don't understand . Y I do I don't get the point , because it's would be s relatively so expensive , just these m small buttons .
User Interface: Is it cents , the the the fifty cents a button ?
Marketing: Fifty cents for one single stupid button .
User Interface: No way .
Industrial Designer: So , whe when you {disfmarker} so then it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well , okay , well well let's make it just one .
Industrial Designer: It's eighty percent of the price of the of the amount of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Here , now it's now it's already s
Marketing: Yeah , exactly . Yeah .
Project Manager: shall we just give our own interpretation to ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because else we would really have a problem . It would be impossible to make it {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I can't {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's way {disfmarker}
Marketing: I I I couldn't understand it if it was fifty cents per uh uh per button . Really .
Industrial Designer: When you have the same amount of button , you have to put in wi in your carton . Board .
Project Manager: And and less buttons than this isn't possible .
Industrial Designer: And then throw it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , yeah , {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is the most simple {disfmarker}
User Interface: No , no no .
Project Manager: yeah , it is possible , but I've never seen one before .
Industrial Designer: But whe
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I've seen one uh one remote control with only the pu yeah , only with uh page up , page down and volume ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No , really .
Project Manager: Yeah , without the numbers . That's possible . Yeah , we could skip the numbers .
User Interface: Yeah , uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , but I d I wouldn't want to own that . Really .
User Interface: That's still four .
Industrial Designer: Uh , it's it's still for little children . They can handle that remote control ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Then uh , teletext would also be im impossible .
Industrial Designer: but but it isn't fo Yes , it's for {disfmarker} it's li uh it's just for a little {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , that's no option , that's no option .
Project Manager: Okay , we'll we'll just {disfmarker} okay . But then still , {vocalsound} when we {disfmarker} there's no room for a docking station or something . Tha w Le let's see th we have uh {disfmarker} oh yeah , button supplements . We'll give the buttons special colour . We'll give them a special form . Uh , I think we should mark the special form thing , because it {disfmarker} this will be some special forms incorporated in these big buttons , I guess .
User Interface: {vocalsound} A special colour , why a special colour ?
Project Manager: Because the buttons will be uh d will be matching colour between the buttons and the rubber surroundings .
User Interface: But wha what s what special ?
Project Manager: I think that's the {disfmarker} what they mean by a special colour .
User Interface: Okay , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Otherwise , it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Otherwise it would be the {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't think the special form is really true .
Project Manager: I think all the special colour things have to be marked over here , because that's what we were planning to do , making it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Special form also , it says .
Project Manager: Yeah , special material r also ,
Marketing: Is it ?
Project Manager: because i has rubber . And the buttons have to be rubber .
Industrial Designer: What is the normal material ?
User Interface: Plastic .
Marketing: Yeah , I dunno .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sh yeah .
User Interface: Plastic , I think .
Industrial Designer: Classic ?
User Interface: Plastic .
Industrial Designer: Oh , plastic .
Marketing: Plastic .
Project Manager: 'Kay , but the problem now is that {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} There's no such thing as a docking station in this list , but we can all imagine that it would be impossible to make a docking station for thirty cents .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But we can uh sell the remote control and uh sell the docking station {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Separately .
User Interface: Se no no no .
Industrial Designer: yes . And and {disfmarker} but we don't have to tell it , but what we can say of {disfmarker} can um almost make it impossible to buy a remote control without the docking station .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah . Yeah , but I do like the idea , but we {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It uh {disfmarker} but it {disfmarker} then the docking station isn't relevant for this project anymore , but we can {disfmarker}
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: No , but you {disfmarker} otherwise you can't retrieve it .
Project Manager: but then you still have to use {disfmarker} we have to find out what chip we u need .
Marketing: Yeah , I really don't get it . I mean if it's a simple chip , then we suddenly got two Euros and thirty cents .
Project Manager: I think we can agree on this . I I think the special colour thing has to be uh marked . 'Cause I think we uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , yep .
Project Manager: Yeah , I think that's what what what they uh mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But for two Euros and thirty cents , we uh we don't get a docking station .
Marketing: I think so , too . Oh , I don't know .
Project Manager: But can we find out uh about uh this chips ? Because when we don't need a d a docking station , then probably we also have only {disfmarker} we also need a simple chip .
User Interface: And then we can get a docking station . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And maybe then we can do something extra . Oh , n uh oh , still {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: For {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: oh , it's gonna get more expensive with {gap} . Two .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then we have some money left . We can put then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: For two Euros .
Project Manager: We can put a scroll-wheel on it or something .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh why ?
Project Manager: Yeah , well who knows . Or a little bit of tin titanium .
Marketing: I mean i i if you {disfmarker} if it would cost two Euros , that had a total a total thing , it would be nice too , I mean uh we're not gonna add uh a trip to Hawaii to it .
User Interface: But what what can we do {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , or we can ki do the kinetic cells . That's also maybe an idea .
User Interface: But uh what can we do with the simple chip and what's difference with a regular chip and a advanced chip ?
Project Manager: Yeah that's what then what he has to find out . Maybe you can uh find it in your email right now , then we know {disfmarker} then we exactly know what it will cost us .
User Interface: If if i
Project Manager: Maybe is that {disfmarker} that's nice to know .
User Interface: Regular chip and {disfmarker} because we don't have uh special functions to use uh in advanced chip , for example .
Project Manager: Yeah , bu bu but when we {disfmarker} yeah , but when we skip when we um {disfmarker} when we don't use the do we're not gonna make the docking station , then we still {disfmarker} yeah , we need something else maybe to make it kind of special ,
Marketing: I like the hand dynamo part .
Project Manager: because that was our our special feature .
Marketing: We can make a plain docking station for two Euros .
User Interface: Yeah . We'll go back uh tomorrow . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , okay , you can also do that , but maybe {disfmarker}
Marketing: Wi wi without recharge {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It still is a special remote control cons uh you know , wi its form is special and material .
Marketing: Yeah , but but we can make a docking station for two Euros uh if you don't put the recharge function in it . I mean , it has a shape .
Project Manager: Yeah , but for two Euros , then we have still {disfmarker} maybe we have to use the advanced chip ,
Marketing: Of course it has a shape , but i i
Project Manager: then two Euros isn't even possible .
Marketing: Why should that not be possible ?
Project Manager: Yeah , then {disfmarker} because then we'd {disfmarker} thirty cents left .
Marketing: No , for for the uh for the docking station if you do if you choose the simple chip .
Project Manager: Yeah , but {disfmarker} yeah , I don't know , because maybe d uh yeah , we have to find out with the simple chip .
User Interface: That's the question . If we do i do we need an advanced chip , or is it okay f
Project Manager: Yeah , and w and and we uh need f
Marketing: Yes .
Industrial Designer: It isn't in my information , so I don't know it uh either .
Project Manager: and what is this ? Sample sensor sample speaker .
Industrial Designer: It isn't in my information , I uh I {disfmarker} I've got a schematic view of the remote control , but nothing about uh advanced chips or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} {disfmarker} You can look at it for s presentation . S technical functions ?
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: Uh I've got here in uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: No no , they were uh mine , yeah .
Project Manager: Oh .
Industrial Designer: I will put a I will put a page on it . When my mouse works again .
Project Manager: Oh , oh oh . Hey . Oh .
Industrial Designer: My mouse is uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Dead .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Reanimate it .
User Interface: Died .
Industrial Designer: Oh . Ah , I've got it . I will put uh my email on the the network .
Marketing: What the hell are these ?
Industrial Designer: It's on it .
Marketing: Oh , whatever .
User Interface: Yeah , it's open .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm . I don't think here {disfmarker} it's in here already .
User Interface: It's circuit board . It's only just basics for for {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's nothing about s yeah .
User Interface: At the end circuit there is an infrared LED .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: This isn't helpful .
Project Manager: No . But i in the presentation of yours , there was also something about different components . Which one was it ?
User Interface: Components design .
Project Manager: Functional requirements ?
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: No , that was my presentation .
User Interface: Components design maybe . N on top .
Industrial Designer: Yes , that was mine .
Project Manager: Ah . Ah yes , it was the second one .
Industrial Designer: But that was my second {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , it was your second {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's already open .
Project Manager: your first presentation .
Marketing: It's at the bottom .
Project Manager: Sorry ?
User Interface: Working design .
Marketing: It's uh at your task bar .
User Interface: Yeah , but it's the the other one .
Marketing: Oh .
Industrial Designer: Mm {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh , this is n this is not this n
User Interface: Was it working design or components design ?
Marketing: Sorry .
Project Manager: that's not the right one . I don't {disfmarker} oh .
Marketing: Okay , sorry .
Project Manager: No , this is the other one . Or maybe something is uh {disfmarker} maybe there's something abo in in these {disfmarker}
User Interface: Chip set .
Industrial Designer: But this is the same uh {disfmarker} This is o only the possibilities .
Project Manager: Here .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . We can use a simple , a regular , or advanced chip .
Marketing: Yeah , nice . I it doesn't say anything .
User Interface: The display requires an advanced chip .
Project Manager: You know that a push-button requires a simple chip , but a scroll-wheel , it it me requires {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ah , okay .
Project Manager: Okay , so we only need a simple chip .
User Interface: Requires .
Industrial Designer: With the light .
User Interface: Little lights . Yeah , but that that's just the same as the the LED .
Project Manager: No no , that's just a simple chip . A scroll-wheel {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's not needed .
Project Manager: it s uh only states that a scroll-wheel requires a regular chip , and that a display requires an advanced chip . So , we don't need any of them .
Marketing: A display uh is , of course , uh for showing letters . For showing text .
Industrial Designer: L_C_D_ .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I don't think that uh just a l a little light {disfmarker}
User Interface: No . I think uh the uh normal uh simple chip will be okay .
Marketing: Yeah , I agree .
Project Manager: And what's the sample sensor slash sample speaker ?
Industrial Designer: Maybe you can say against the remote uh page uh f uh page up , page down .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , I guess so too .
User Interface: Yeah , true . Well , that's not too {disfmarker} what we want .
Marketing: Next channel . No . Well , we might want it , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} All in twelve Euros .
Project Manager: Back to the costs .
Industrial Designer: Twelve Euros and fifty cents .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So we're gonna use the simple chip .
User Interface: So , simple chip is okay .
Marketing: Great . Delete .
Industrial Designer: And the lights . Where uh are the lights ?
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , lights , yeah , there's no
Marketing: Well , there're three , I guess .
User Interface: category . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Nah , there is some money left to be spent .
User Interface: Can we do it wi within two two Euro ?
Marketing: I think we can make a docking station . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , but what we have to think about now is that is is it still a special remote control ? But I mean it isn't {disfmarker} it hasn't got any innovative technology , we aren't gonna apply any uh innovated {disfmarker} innovative te technology anyway , I think . I don't I don't see any possibility to do so , because it would {disfmarker} wouldn't fit our defi design philosophy .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . But it's original .
Project Manager: But what w is there some extra {disfmarker}
Marketing: No , that's true .
Project Manager: maybe I think maybe the kinetic thing is something . Instead of the rechargeable {disfmarker} the rechargeable thing was something to um {disfmarker} know , so y so people wouldn't have to worry about their batteries anymore .
Marketing: M bu
Project Manager: Maybe we {disfmarker} if we put the kinetic thing in it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But but sometimes you put a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , you leave the p yeah , I know , but still I {disfmarker} they will think about that . I mean if you u
Industrial Designer: Kinetics aren't uh nowadays only used in watches and that's because you're always walking .
Project Manager: The uh {disfmarker} it's made for s people {disfmarker} well , the they don't {disfmarker} if it was uh uh r useless technology , they wouldn't put it uh as a possibility .
Industrial Designer: Uh solar cells are useless .
Project Manager: And i it it {disfmarker} th th the the target
Marketing: Or the hand dynamo dynamo {disfmarker}
Project Manager: the target uh group are people who zap regularly and throw with their remote control as a matter of speaking {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Because I think it {disfmarker} when when there w was a remote control where it was useful to have a kinetic uh uh power source , then it would be this one . Because it's one {disfmarker} it gets thrown around {gap} thrown around a lot and it gets used a lot {disfmarker} Hey that {disfmarker} maybe that's cool {disfmarker} that's a cool thing about it , you know . You don't use batteries .
Marketing: Yeah , but but if we ca
Project Manager: I've never seen it before in a remote control .
User Interface: But then we could make a docking station .
Marketing: I don't know if {disfmarker} Five minutes .
Project Manager: No , we we we can't make a docking station anyway .
Marketing: That's not true .
Project Manager: Yeah , we can als or uh also m we we can make one {disfmarker}
User Interface: Wow , w why no li
Marketing: We can make a docking station for two thirty .
Project Manager: we can still make {disfmarker}
User Interface: Look at now , we got two
Industrial Designer: Fo {vocalsound} for a docking station .
Marketing: Two thirty .
User Interface: two thirty left . Ca can't we make a docking station of that ?
Marketing: We can make a docking station . Sure .
Industrial Designer: With a cable , with uh buttons on it , with retrieval uh device in it .
Marketing: Sure .
User Interface: I don't know .
Marketing: The power device is is i i is very cheap .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's just a regular uh power cable and whatever .
Project Manager: Yeah , but be serious , then uh the docking station will be a fifth of the price of the remote control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Wi with a button to
User Interface: Well , we we uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: wi with a button to retrieve it , so it will beep .
Marketing: So .
Industrial Designer: Uh , so it's uh wireless technology .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , but we uh we don't inc we haven't looked at the {disfmarker} these costs of the speaker and other stuff . I don't think it's realistic for you to do so .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well then it's a useless project .
Industrial Designer: Look at the case ,
Project Manager: Oh , because we {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: the case the case of of uh of uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , then we don't have any innovation things .
Project Manager: We {disfmarker} well look at all the special stuff we have . Colour a the colours are special , the form is special . It {disfmarker} th this is whole concept . Uh maybe it {disfmarker} with the kinetic thing , I think we could do uh do a compromise uh with the kim kinetic thing .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Can't we uh {disfmarker} Can't we say fifteen Euros ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh , no .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No , sta yeah {gap} I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No , then we have to sell it for thirty Euros .
Marketing: No .
User Interface: No , we only make less profit of it .
Industrial Designer: It's the {disfmarker}
Marketing: You can sell for twenty seven and a half . Then you make as much profit as you would with twelve and a half production costs .
User Interface: {vocalsound} No .
Project Manager: Yeah , I don my suggestion is to just forget about the whole docking station thing and make it uh like a {disfmarker} Uh uh I I I I still fee I also feel this concept of making it kinetic , because of the {disfmarker} you know , it g it gives something dynamic to the remote control .
Marketing: I don't think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Maybe we can uh can do it both . Maybe we can do it both uh in the in the in the remote . Battery and kinetic .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: No , that wouldn't n no .
Marketing: Thirteen twenty .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , and it is also not a good {disfmarker} it's not {disfmarker} you have to really do it only kinetic , you don't want it to think about batteries anymore .
Marketing: And I think only {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes , but when it's {disfmarker} then when it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , but only kinetic , then you gotta {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No no .
Industrial Designer: then you have to shake it uh and all when it's when it's empty .
Project Manager: Yeah , it's great .
Marketing: You you gotta throw uh throw it through the room like twenty times an hour , really .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No no no . No no , this is very sophisticated technology technology .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: When you use it {disfmarker} your remote like once a day , or maybe even less i i it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You asked for three d No , that's n that's not true . Uh , a watch is uh kinetic because you walk all the time .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: It {disfmarker} We can make it {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} no . Becau be but a remote control gets {disfmarker} why do they state that this technology can be used if it
Industrial Designer: Yes , solar cells are also stated .
Project Manager: Yeah , m but a w uh uh n uh a calculator also works on r on solar cells .
Industrial Designer: Why don't we use solar cells then ?
Project Manager: Because I think the d whole dynamic part , do you know , appeals to me qui uh thinking of our design philosophy , you know , with the rubber parts and uh sturdiness of the thing , and y when you move it around a lot , then people find the idea funny that when I move my remote control around and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's true .
Marketing: Yeah , it's funny for a week . I guess something like that , where you have to move it around very frequently , is demotivating .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , but you don't have to . Trust me . The idea of this technology is that you don't think about it , it just happens .
Marketing: No , I I don't move my uh my remote control very much , seriously .
Project Manager: Okay , then we d Okay , well y we don't have to do it , but what {disfmarker} that would just have a lack of key features , you know .
Industrial Designer: Oui .
Project Manager: You m have to put something on your box . You have to make people buy it and uh {disfmarker} We can really can do the docking thing , uh it's not {disfmarker} yeah , uh we can do it , but it's would be a easy way out .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You can do it for fifty cents . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well , we've got more than fifty Cents .
Project Manager: Okay , but we have to grou to agree upon something ,
Industrial Designer: The c {vocalsound} The case the case alone is is is uh
Project Manager: because uh we only have a minute left or so .
Industrial Designer: the case alone for uh remote control is at least one Euro . Then we have one Euro thirty for the whole docking station .
Project Manager: No no , it's not possible . Okay , w b we can s we can leave it on be well then then th it's {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} then then our concept is ready .
User Interface: Cheap remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah , we make some extra profit of it .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} No , we won't , but that's um something else .
User Interface: {vocalsound} It w it won't tell , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But now {disfmarker}
Marketing: No , this not gonna sell . No .
Project Manager: Huh , any ideas ?
Marketing: Of course not .
User Interface: No , uh , n no
Industrial Designer: Great {gap} . It's great .
User Interface: Yeah , we just have to go all what we did today again . You have to do it over .
Industrial Designer: Our remote control .
Marketing: We come back tomorrow , okay ?
Project Manager: No no uh there's still there's still someth concept and something special left .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: {gap} the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Seventy Euros .
Project Manager: I mean we're gonna {disfmarker} it's gonna excel in in on in the the range in the field of design and and uh looks and feel .
User Interface: No , but {disfmarker} no .
Project Manager: That's what it's {disfmarker} makes it special . Yeah , and I would li I would have liked a kinetic part as well , to give it some just to give it some extra special feature , and uh I know it will work , but uh it's it's an {disfmarker} They're they're not putting technologies on this {gap} , but if it if it was impossible to to make it happen .
Industrial Designer: Why not a hand dynamo then ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , well we leave it like this . Then it's c then we're {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: We can't do anything else . Warning , finish meeting now .
Industrial Designer: We're done .
Project Manager: Okay , project e uh
Industrial Designer: Is this it ?
Project Manager: well , we were gonna what look {disfmarker} take a look at the last sheet .
Marketing: Yeah , {vocalsound} sure .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: No , we can't .
Project Manager: Yeah , we have to {disfmarker} Yeah , it's {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} No .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Yes , yes . Celebration . I don't see why , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Where's the champagne ?
Marketing: I think we gotta fill out another questionnaire , to be honest .
User Interface: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: I don't uh hear a bell .
Marketing: No , not yet .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} We can do it here then .
Marketing: Alright , I'll see you guys in a minute .
Industrial Designer: Bye .
User Interface: Can we {disfmarker} can't we do it here ?
Marketing: I don't think so . I don't know . I don't I don't think so .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh-huh . Just fill that one in .
User Interface: Yeah , we're doing now . But it's {gap} . Oh , okay .
Project Manager: Uh , I don't know .
User Interface: Nice .
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doc_20
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Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So in last meeting we have discussed the conceptual design and we asked you to prepare a prototype for the for the remote control .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {gap} . {vocalsound} So let's see the {disfmarker} what did you prepare .
User Interface: Yeah , so can you go out to the shared folder ? Mm the shared folder .
Project Manager: Sh share folder for th your presentation ?
User Interface: Yes . We have a presentation .
Project Manager: Because I have here {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {gap} So I got the participant uh three . W uh {vocalsound} . Three . It's the final design , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay just one {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} S so so I discussed with Guillaume .
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Right . {vocalsound} And uh {vocalsound} so we have {vocalsound} {disfmarker} and we we are both agreed on some two versions of the prototypes , because we were no not decided whether we wanted to have an L_C_D_ or not because it's too expensive . So we come up with two versions . One with and one without L_C_D_s . Um but both comes with a charger and then detachable and uh or {gap} control module . And detachable big buttons for all people um . So {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} S okay so I'll show you the the two prototypes {vocalsound} . Here we have the first one with the beautiful uh L_C_D_ um display . You you can s here . And you can uh just um browse into the the navigation menu by uh joystick joystick-like uh button .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: You can uh choose the direction and if you just push on it it's considered like a enter function .
User Interface: Mm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: You have on the mm on the side here the microphone for the {vocalsound} for the speech recognition system here .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And here the the switch that control if you want {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Why you why you you put it in the the side ?
Industrial Designer: Well I I I think uh it's the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's not a good place maybe {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but {disfmarker}
User Interface: No i i it's the all around camer uh microphone isn't it . The the microphone picks up the speeches from anywhere .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Is it an only a single mic or a microphone array ?
Industrial Designer: Well so it's a microphone array .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh it's very costly , microphone array {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it's just a single microphone , and you {disfmarker} I I think uh we we put it here because I think when you when you are browsing your L_C_D_ you will be close to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: well it's better to to to place it here th than here , for instance .
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound} yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And here is a little switch that control if you want the the speaker uh recognition system to um to be on or off . And uh so this remote control comes up with its charger .
Project Manager: How much does it cost this one ?
Industrial Designer: Well this this prototype is um made for about uh well fi fi fifteen fifteen dollars
User Interface: For the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Fifteen dollars ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} fifteen dollars ,
Project Manager: Ah it's above it's above the budget .
Industrial Designer: but uh well it's not it's not uh {disfmarker} yeah , but uh it's just a prototype and if we uh if we optimises the um the uh {disfmarker} voila .
Marketing: The cost would be le reduced .
Industrial Designer: Yeah the {gap} and the the production costs we we can achieve uh about ten dollars . {gap}
User Interface: Mm . Hmm .
Project Manager: How many b battery is there ?
Industrial Designer: How many , excuse me ?
Project Manager: Battery .
Industrial Designer: Well uh f battery , we use uh about uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Is it n the two A_A_s batteries in it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: A_A_ rechargeable batteries .
Industrial Designer: Rechargeable of course ,
User Interface: Yeah rechargeable batteries .
Industrial Designer: because we have the charger .
User Interface: We have the charger so it's no problem .
Industrial Designer: Yeah and you just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So one one battery ?
Industrial Designer: On uh yeah one battery .
Marketing: Is that two or one ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's kinetic reserve .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Actually uh it's a flexible thing .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You just n uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Now what is the whole day rating for that ?
Industrial Designer: The {disfmarker} excuse me ?
Marketing: Whole day's rating .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: What type of battery ?
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah it's just a r uh simple battery a rechargeable uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah yeah .
Industrial Designer: if you uh like it's exist .
Marketing: Something like a two A_ , A_ three size batteries ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So and if you want to charge the battery you just put the remote control like that to plug in the the charger
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and uh leave it uh alone , it's alright .
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound} At uh {vocalsound} yeah .
Industrial Designer: Then the next time you pick it , oh
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it works {vocalsound} .
User Interface: I forgot to tell you there is only a single button there , b this button {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah just explain the button uh Norman .
User Interface: yeah alright . This button is like the mouse {disfmarker} is like a joystick ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: you can move in three hundred and sixty degrees of direction so you can make a turn and it {disfmarker} the additi functions associated to all the actions you ma you have a click you have a double click all in a single button {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You can move up , down , left , right , or you can do a swing . So a swing to the left , a swing to the right defines other functions . So even though it's a single button , but it is pretty s flexible because of the three hundred and sixty degree movement {vocalsound} .
Marketing: And the L_C_D_ is this one , on the remote ?
User Interface: Yeah . This is the version y that comes with L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Here I present another version without the L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think it's not a good idea because after maybe one or two months of function is {gap} getting destroyed .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: If you
User Interface: Uh okay this is new prototype uh {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So we have the the second version also with the different uh button configuration . The second version is also simpler , we d uh we had just uh I have to put the microphone also {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So basically th it's the same uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh-huh and also the switch .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yeah {vocalsound} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Basically it's the same uh things uh uh as uh I presented before . But here we have uh we have uh four buttons for navigation . Press one button uh acting as a a enter button .
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So um yeah according to what you said it's more robust to the user .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And uh it's also cheaper to produce . We can produce uh such remote control for about uh four dollars . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No four dollars , it's {vocalsound} {gap} good . {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And I think you forgot a point here to have an button to find the charger ,
User Interface: Oh no
Marketing: because that's a major that's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: th actually th we'll come to that point in our {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's it's it's embed in the uh speech recognition system .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: and if you disable speech recognition system then ?
User Interface: W w I'll I'll come to that point later on .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} so Norman will explain to you {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm .
Project Manager: And we will we will serve the charger with this ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah of course mm {gap} .
User Interface: Th they {vocalsound} either these with the {disfmarker} uh the the charger any
Project Manager: With the remote control .
User Interface: in either versions you they they ha they use the same charger yeah .
Project Manager: Okay so the price of the charger included in the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh it's a standard module so you should get it for a cheap price uh {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Thank thank you {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And so mm-hmm .
User Interface: It's that same charger that you can use for the hand-phone but uh again depends on the types . I think we have to investigate more on that , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The price should be below twelve and a half Euro .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah
Project Manager: Well that's {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}
User Interface: but as the Marketing Manager says , people is willing to {disfmarker} people are willing to pay more for good design .
Project Manager: We have we have just {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah people are willing to pay more ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but the company is not willing to invest more at the moment .
Project Manager: The price of selling is twenty five Euros .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And the price of production {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright please uh go on Norman with the special features {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Or uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah we'll we'll come up to that , the the the thing that makes this the controller cheap is that it is modular so you want more function you pay more . If you want less function i i if you want a reasonable price you pay for the functions that you add on to the system ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so is uh modular .
Project Manager: That's for this basis function and if you want more you pay more .
User Interface: Yeah yeah ,
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: for example the L_C_D_ , you can take it you can put it {disfmarker} put it back in , or you can use the other one ,
Marketing: Something like customised . Yeah
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: or {vocalsound} the speech recogniser with the microphone yeah yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You want a microphone to put in the {vocalsound} speech recogniser you don't wan you pay less for the system you see {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm okay .
User Interface: It's pretty flexible in the yeah price {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {gap} You also have the the the two other modules for the parental control
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh yeah yeah you should present that .
Industrial Designer: that that you ca you can add up {vocalsound} to the {disfmarker} to your remote control
Marketing: And this is other one ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: i i if you uh if you want to to have more more power on what you do , and uh which channel you want to choose and so on .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: H here is just the the the module for the kids and th if the parents want to watch T_V_ , up {disfmarker} they come up with their modules ,
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm .
Industrial Designer: they just plug in it
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and they can have all the control they want here .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: We also have this module for uh old people with big buttons , clearly labelled ,
User Interface: Hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and it acts like the previous one ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: you just plug in and it works .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: the i the idea the the conceptual idea is that simplicity and powerful . Simplicity meaning that we have few buttons , powerful is that all the controls with {vocalsound} the one you saw we saw earlier in the meetings with lots of buttons n but here you only have few buttons but you retain the mm the same powerful functionalities . But in addition with simplicity . So that's the best idea , the cond that that's our uh an innovation um uh i in this uh design here {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Okay now we come to other important features that I did not tell you . The first one is the speech recogniser , again it's detachable or add-on . And then we also have security feature for example this here {disfmarker} oop {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: it's very robust {gap} , it doesn't break and the material , what's the material again ?
Industrial Designer: The titanium
Project Manager: Titanium .
Industrial Designer: and so it's very uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Again uh and the battery life is uh is an is an endurable one , again because this is A_A_ batteries you can choose the types of battery you want .
Marketing: Yeah that's fine .
User Interface: Lithium-ion may be a good one , but you can replace it with cheaper one , again you pay for what you get , and then um y the other p points are robust and misplacement reminder . So when you finish watching your T_V_ {vocalsound} and you the you t you turn off the T_V_ , uh and then there's this message coming out that uh please put that back to the charger , so so that's the {disfmarker} or is it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: that's the reminder part . Yeah and um {disfmarker} And it also use a programmable channel and vocabulary , so we didn't define the vocabulary so it's up to the user to define
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm .
User Interface: so {disfmarker} sorry ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And then uh because of the chil because children are using the device so we have also a a {gap} of T_V_ programmes by genre , and this can be used by the adult or by the children . So instead of choosing the channel you are choosing the T_V_ contents of the night . So it's pretty powerful , and that's that's why the num buttons are reduced , because of this feature . Yeah . And {vocalsound} and for the materials that is cheap to produce I think uh it's quite clear from {disfmarker} yeah {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: And also like the {gap} and the fancy designs yeah .
Project Manager: What what's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Maybe we can improve more on the design but {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Maybe yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What's the price to p to produce ?
User Interface: {disfmarker} uh this is the {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well so the price to produce {disfmarker} For uh the simplest one , say we start from four dollars to produce such a device .
Project Manager: With with with the charge ?
Industrial Designer: Uh it's about it {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} without without the charger
Marketing: With the charger ?
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it's about uh well two dollars to produce uh the microphone and speech recognition systems .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Two dollars for the uh for the add-on modules , and finally three dollars for the charger . So if you uh sum up uh everything wi with the L_C_D_ {vocalsound} , which costs two dollar , you have two plus four plus four plus two plus two .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: We don't have charger . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think we can use Excel {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's about {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We don't have all the options {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: so the total cost if you if you want all the fuct functionalities will be about uh fifteen dollars .
Project Manager: Charger we don't have charger here either .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: No it's
Industrial Designer: But it's just if you want all functionalities .
Project Manager: it's below the the the budget .
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Excuse me ?
Project Manager: It's below the bu the budget .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah it's a nice input
Project Manager: We {disfmarker}
Marketing: but we have an other inputs from the l public demands .
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: I think we will just have a rough look and then we can make our statements , and we can finalise the product based on this discu
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: I think we can just go to my presentation then . We can wind up . Or we could uh come to some f uh final conclusions .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So the marketing made an evaluation criteria and these were some of the findings , and uh in the market the people are not really interested with L_C_D_ , without L_C_D_ , with speech recognition interface , or without speech recognition interface , but most of the people what they are interested is {disfmarker} first thing is , they want to have an fancy look and feel , it should be very fancy with colourful and uh very handy to hold .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm .
Marketing: And the second thing is it should be much more technologically innovative .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Of course in that we could put L_C_D_ or recognition to be more technologically innovative . And the third one is easy to use .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Well I think that the technical in innovation is is in the product itself since we haven't yet a remote who are allowing to to choose interactively with the T_V_ screen uh uh with just four buttons .
Marketing: Okay and if we go to the next slide , here you can find {disfmarker} these are the latest fashion updates , and so this {disfmarker} in Paris and Milan {gap} they have detected this trends that the this year it's going to be an year of fruit and vegetable , so people are really interested to see if they have an remote in the shape of the fruit or a vegetable , or whatever they like .
User Interface: Spongy spongy . Mm mm .
Marketing: So I think it should be much more customised to make a different uh shapes .
User Interface: Mm {vocalsound} mm .
Marketing: And the second thing is , and if the material , they really do not want it to be very hard , as in the case of very pl plastic or titanium , it should be somewhat spongy .
User Interface: But the the problem is that uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} is it robust to mishandling ?
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: We have {disfmarker} you should find a material that is robust at the same time spongy {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: A sponge . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah so uh {vocalsound} so finally we have these three criterias .
User Interface: Spongy {vocalsound} .
Marketing: One is fancy look , second is innovative , and third is easy to use .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So these are the f uh three criteria on which we are going to build our remote .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So {disfmarker} and we have an evaluation criteria for each one of these ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: say that we have a seven point scale , from one to seven ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and for each of the product you could just give me the scale according to this .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So now you have with L_C_D_ and without L_C_D_ ,
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: so on this scale , if it is true , if it is {disfmarker} if it has a fancy look you could just tell me one , or if it is false , it doesn't {disfmarker} it looks uh {disfmarker} it doesn't look much fancy , then you could just tell me seven . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} We can make our study on this and {disfmarker}
User Interface: so is the e evaluation depending on us or other users ?
Marketing: No no we have {disfmarker} you have designed two products now ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: one is with L_C_D_ and without L_C_D_ .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: But who will give the scoring uh we ourself or or a third party ?
Project Manager: You .
Marketing: According to you , no according to you designers , how will feel {disfmarker} does it uh with L_C_D_ and without L_C_D_ ?
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Okay let us make this L_ and without L_C_D_ . On on this scale the L_C_D_ remote control . How do you look {disfmarker} how does it look ?
User Interface: Mm . Mm .
Marketing: D is it very fancy or doesn't look much fancy ?
Industrial Designer: Well it doesn't look much fancy I'll I'll say three or four .
Marketing: And you both agree for that ?
Project Manager: And you ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think we can improve on the design .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Som someone um commented this is like a the stone age uh {gap} {vocalsound} design .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . It's it it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um we have been focused all all this {vocalsound} time on the {vocalsound} on the technical aspect , functional aspect , but also the simplicity .
Industrial Designer: Technical aspects .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: As for the design maybe we c should hire a designer to help {vocalsound} .
Marketing: So I take three on {disfmarker} with L_C_D_ ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah a three .
Marketing: So without L_C_D_ how would you rate it ?
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Uh four . I think it's it's uh more easy to make f fancy things when it's not complicated
Marketing: Four .
Industrial Designer: so removing the L_C_D_ um gives us a li more liberty to to have a fancy look .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: And in the sense of innovativeness , with L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: Well it's it's the same for both so {vocalsound} I will give a five , six . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Five with L_C_D_ and {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well five also uh {disfmarker} Norman please . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: from the innovation aspect I feel that uh what is most innovative of our prototype compared to the existing prototypes that we saw l in the last meeting is that um {vocalsound} the retrieval of T_V_ programmes by content , because uh that is really innovative , and for now {disfmarker} and another innovation we have is simplicity and {disfmarker} simplicity , few buttons , we've uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} A lot of functionalities .
Industrial Designer: With lot of functionalities .
User Interface: So that is uh that is uh for both th
Marketing: So without L_C_D_ ?
User Interface: Our gi I think that the our our product is uh has the best in all {disfmarker} well this is a biased judgement {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: because we designed them .
Marketing: No no according to design aspect we want to know how would you feel the innovativeness ?
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} Uh the innovation is v is very high I think .
Project Manager: For L_C_D_ .
Marketing: With L_C_D_ .
User Interface: Both .
Marketing: And without L_C_D_ ?
Industrial Designer: Mm for both it's the the same innovations .
User Interface: For both . It's the same innovation . So maybe I can put six to seven .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {gap} six , let's go for six .
Project Manager: Without L_C_D_ .
User Interface: Both .
Marketing: No actually uh to make it with L_C_D_ you make more efforts . So I {disfmarker} there is high innovativeness included if you make it with L_C_D_ y
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: then when it is without L_C_D_ there is not much innovativeness .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Uh no innovative yeah .
User Interface: Uh uh uh there w there was a there was a issue here is that what are what is the display on the L_C_D_ ?
Marketing: So we can't go {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Talk about {disfmarker}
User Interface: We haven't really uh determined {vocalsound} what are {disfmarker} actually actually
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean that what you are sayin that's what the design {disfmarker}
User Interface: it's good to have a L_C_D_ but what are we gonna display on a L_C_D_ ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No it's like this ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean on the L_C_D_ , according to what I understand from your model is , you have a joystick here , and you have L_C_D_ , you just press your joystick , you get here a programme .
Project Manager: So let's remove it .
User Interface: Yeah ? Yeah . Yeah but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but you have the same programme on the T_V_ screen .
Marketing: Uh then {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes exactly .
Project Manager: This is the problem .
Marketing: No on the T_V_ you don't it doesn't display on the T_V_ now .
Industrial Designer: If you have the L_C_D_ , but if n
Marketing: L_C_D_ ? Then uh there is no meaning in having it on the T_V_ .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Or then again you have a channels , volume and all the stuff and what a
User Interface: But you cannot display all on a L_C_D_ .
Marketing: I mean that depends upon your design , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Anyway for for the users who who who opt for L_C_D_ {vocalsound} we'll give them the give them the L_C_D_ ,
Marketing: I mean {disfmarker}
User Interface: we give what the customer uh wants , right .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So without L_C_D_ you want to put it fi the same level of innovativeness ? And which {gap} do you recommend e easy to use , with L_C_D_ or without L_C_D_ ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well I think both are really easy to use because there are few button buttons ,
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and uh well t p the menu are clear , well-organised , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well with little knowing of the technology you can you can easily use the product
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so I will give a six for the easy to use .
User Interface: Yeah I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No it's just if I I see the the f the rate I think it's better to do it without L_C_D_ .
User Interface: sorry . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Because that's with L_C_D_ just will increase the price ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: and I thi i they have the same rate so without L_C_D_ it will be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Or we can just go back to the previous slide uh where we ha we have a few updates . So I mean in the product design you could just amend it to make some few changes
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: according to fruit and vegetable or a spongy touch
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: without L_C_D_ and without speech recognition . Even then our product is going to be very good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's cheaper to produce .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound} S {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And uh if the the {disfmarker} well if we have less technology we have more liberty to uh for the shape and uh things like that so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah that's right .
User Interface: Yeah . I have another thing to say about the easy to use aspect . I think the easy to use uh aspect is different for different people .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: For the young generation easy to use may be very complicated
Industrial Designer: Yep .
User Interface: because uh they w they wants lot of controls with lots of buttons . For kids they want simply the {gap} s similarit for the old people they want simplicity ,
Marketing: Yeah yeah that's right .
User Interface: so that's why {vocalsound} we have the parental module . Uh we can ha have {disfmarker} build a more complex design if if they want it , but but uh what I'm trying to say here is that the um {disfmarker} we have different sets of buttons for different kinds of people . So in terms of easy to use I think it's very user customisable . User customisation is very important yeah . Yeah
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: so {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Six .
Marketing: So without L_C_D_ I just take it five ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: W uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Or you want it to be six ?
User Interface: I think it's the same .
Industrial Designer: Um six .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes as you say , with better uh {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Without L_C_D_ .
Marketing: S s oh I think it's better to have this without L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} yeah . And to improve the the look .
Marketing: As our Programme Manager s Pro Project Manager says that without L_C_D_ it is going to reduce the cost also ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: and it's going to be much simpler to use .
Industrial Designer: Yes and to give us more liberty to have a fancy look so
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so let's go back to our laboratory and {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} To improve on the design .
Project Manager: What a what what about the sys speech recognition ?
Marketing: So .
Project Manager: {gap} what about the integration of speech recognition ?
User Interface: Huh ? The speech recogniser is a add-on module . Right ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: That's going to be an optional .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: If somebody wants to buy it they can have it , otherwise no .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ah so it's optional with the {disfmarker} okay .
Marketing: It's an optional .
Industrial Designer: It's optional yeah , since well according to this study uh people more {vocalsound} likes more to have a spongy uh {vocalsound} remote control than {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it will be {disfmarker} I think i
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think it will be better if we have all these modules in the same remote control , because maybe parents will lose these uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , but I mean if you have an add-ons , the kids may just uh hide the parental module
Project Manager: Yeah . Or ma yeah .
Marketing: and so that their parents can't use it {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Or maybe parents they can for forget where they put it or ,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: so mayb better if you have all this in the same {disfmarker}
Marketing: In the same set , yeah ,
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: and and individual buttons to make them work .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} The problem is if i we are bla if a customer wants a certain component , and doesn't want the parental control because it's a couple who do not have children {disfmarker} {vocalsound} when you sell the product in the market you could meet any kind of people , and not all people will need all the functionalities we propose to them . So we might lose the customer because of this . I don't know ,
Project Manager: So you mean that even if these modules will be will be functional {disfmarker} uh will be optional .
User Interface: what do you think uh ? Yes exa what do you think , I don't know . You are Marketing Manag {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean how to how to how to make a marketing survey that uh how many married couple {disfmarker} or how many couples have a T_V_
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: or to the number or singles who have a television .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So based on that I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} But the the question is n does those modularity increase the production cost or decrease the production cost ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think it inc increase . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well you can {gap} {disfmarker} if you had uh something li
Project Manager: I think it i increases .
Industrial Designer: Oh no ,
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: because if you if you add uh something {disfmarker} well yeah maybe because it's three different pieces uh to to to build but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: But you can make it on a single P_C_ with three different options .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it's I think it's cheaper if you if you already built the all the {vocalsound} functionalities um on the same module , but uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound} Mm . Yeah .
Marketing: On the same P_C_B_
User Interface: Well well the other aspect is that if {vocalsound} in the {disfmarker} when they have the ar existing product you you gonna maintain the the {disfmarker} you're gonna keep the same customer ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: yeah yeah .
User Interface: because the same customer will come back to buy other add-ons .
Marketing: Yeah that's right .
User Interface: So so {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean you could just provide with an optional {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah i i so if don't don't buy now they can buy i in the future . So in in that way you're actually keeping the cus the same customer , attracting them to come back in again and again .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So it's something like a Microsoft product {vocalsound} update .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And and we we we we we we don't want that .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} We're not trying to follow the Microsoft and we don't want to the m {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Updates and we sell it . We make updates and sell it {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah well if the buyers can be up the th would be {disfmarker} can be upgraded , it would be a good thing right ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , it depends on the v production . {vocalsound}
Marketing: And uh what's the idea about uh the shape of the remote controls ?
Industrial Designer: Well so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh can they be made into a fruit and vegetable types ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah
Marketing: Do you require different types of P_C_B_s and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think we are {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah but we are also the um well the components will have to change because uh we have to deal with the shape and um {disfmarker} but I don't think it will uh increase the cost too much so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Or uh it could be like this {disfmarker} the P_C_B_ would be the same for all , but only the exterior uh shape is different o for all .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Uh well but it's a bit complicated to {disfmarker} if if if you need machines to {disfmarker} different machines to um ah well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . What we can change is to propose the {vocalsound} customers with skins . For example the i the mobile phones nowaday , they sell different kinds of skin
Marketing: Yeah , yeah that's right .
User Interface: and then people just feel that oh I have a new skin and looks better .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah we can have the same global shape
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and then uh add on skins and with with this uh tex spongy texture uh things like that .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah that's right .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah you can pl in what material would that be in uh ?
Industrial Designer: Sponge . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think you need to look into the material .
User Interface: Yeah or furry like a pet dog kind of thing {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So we finished the prototype uh presentation if you have uh something else to say .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think the Project Manager would be interested to look about the financial issues in making these models .
Project Manager: {gap} Project evaluation project satisfaction , for example . I don't know , we have to ask these question . We have to give answers so {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} I suppose that you {gap} this criteria , is it ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Project evaluation . {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Room for creativity . This room is a bit small , but {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} but I think it's okay for us to work with . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I feel it's fine , we know we don't need uh {disfmarker} I think it's okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah mm .
Industrial Designer: That was good .
Marketing: This is fine for making a presentat for project presentations .
User Interface: Mm . Yeah anyway we have the laboratory nearby to build our modules so it's okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: And the leadership was excellent .
Project Manager: Yeah I think so {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Good job {vocalsound} good job .
Industrial Designer: Fine yes uh {vocalsound}
Project Manager: He gave you the liberty to talk as you wants {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Yeah that's right . Yeah that's right .
Project Manager: Uh the teamwork was very very good . I was really {disfmarker} I am very satisfying to work with with you .
Industrial Designer: Very democratic .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Thank you {gap} {vocalsound} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Thank you {gap} {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
User Interface: Alright .
Marketing: And new ideas found . Any new ideas to make these presentations more interactive and more interesting ?
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Come up with new product {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Less fancy .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I mean uh what type of product would you think {disfmarker} could we make this more interesting ?
User Interface: Mm we {disfmarker} I I know something , we need more cakes , more biscuits on the table while we have meetings . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah and also more well uh {vocalsound} more seriously I think it's it's a good idea to have uh clear clear points whenever we do a meeting
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: uh prior to the meeting to have uh well a list with the points who will be discussed or things like that , but I think it's alright . We achieved uh project goal I think .
Marketing: Yeah
Project Manager: De
Marketing: that is within the budget .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's w yes , more or less .
Marketing: And the evaluation was {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Without without L_C_D_ , without speech recognition , it will be simple .
Marketing: Yeah that's right .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright . So .
Marketing: And the next is celebration .
Industrial Designer: So uh coffee machine .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah {vocalsound} free free coffee
User Interface: {vocalsound} Alright then , we finished ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah thank you for your work and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah thank you , thank you very much .
User Interface: Thank you very much .
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doc_21
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Project Manager: So welcome . The first kick-off meeting . What shall we do ? First the opening , then the rest . What are we going to do . We m have to make a new remote control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It has to be original , trendy and user-friendly . So we will get back th on that . First we have to make a functional design . After that we have to make a conceptual design , and then after that a detailed design . So we'll discuss that later . First we have a look at {gap} . So first to {disfmarker} we have to make a small painting . What have {disfmarker} do we have to do . First you can save the documents . We have to do that every time we make something . You can print it . No . And we have to use {vocalsound} the pen and the eraser . So {disfmarker} Now . We all have to use this one .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You have to make your own favourite animal .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So I'll make an example .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: First don't touch that things .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You can use the pen . And then you can make {vocalsound} um something .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nice .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um you can change some things .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um format , line , and change it . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} And you can change the colour .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: An elephant . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So that's it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} So and after it you have to save it .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now we can make a new one .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: You have to paint now . {vocalsound} So you're next .
Marketing: Oh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: Well we will try . Where it going ?
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: Hmm . That's uh strange . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Project Manager: What is going on ?
Industrial Designer: {gap} pop-ups .
Project Manager: What are you {disfmarker} What ?
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: What is this , Pictionary .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh a bird .
Project Manager: Is a {disfmarker} It is a {disfmarker} It is a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Bird .
Project Manager: A duck .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {disfmarker} Now save ?
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: Now uh blank ?
Project Manager: Blank , yes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay next one . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay . Let's try this . Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Whoo .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um . Mm-hmm . Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh not . Oh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay . Okay . Yeah . No problem .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Shit happens . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I'm not getting anything uh on my screen now . Okay .
Industrial Designer: A parrot . Ish .
Marketing: Wow . Oh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: He did it before .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No , no . Yeah . Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Nice .
Project Manager: Very good .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
User Interface: Uh blank .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Very good . So um you can always go back . {gap} So {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's it . So that was two . Now next . The budget . The b Uh we will sell the t at twenty five Euros . And we have only twenty of twelve and a half Euro to make it . So {vocalsound} now we have to think about what we will make . First I wanna hear from you . Uh what are your experiences with remote controls . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh I will start .
Project Manager: F first {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Big one , they are uh not easy to use . Um I have one set and uh a remote control , when I dropped it , uh it broke . So that won't be uh our goal , I think .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: And uh g big buttons , {vocalsound} m uh that's easier to use than uh {disfmarker} I think . Not all the small buttons , you don't know {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is this positive or negative , that uh big buttons ?
Industrial Designer: Big buttons , positive .
Project Manager: Positive .
Industrial Designer: All all small buttons like when you have uh like a hundred buttons on your remote control , you won't know what they're working for .
Project Manager: Okay . What are your experiences ?
User Interface: Uh well I think the the the goal of a remote control is that it's it it has an influence on the T_V_ set .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: And that it controls the channels and the the volume . And uh I I I think it's positive if there's a a LED uh uh a LED on the corner of the of the remote . So that you know it s it still has batteries on it {disfmarker} in it . And that if you push the button the LED uh gives a light , and uh and you see that it's working . And uh yeah . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So and do they always have that ?
User Interface: Yeah , but {disfmarker} No no no . But I {disfmarker} my my experience is that it it it's convenient to have that .
Project Manager: It's easy to you .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . 'Kay .
Marketing: Uh at home we have a T_V_ , a video uh recorder , a D_V_D_ player , and a satellite receiver . We have uh four distinctive remote controls for that .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Thank you .
Marketing: That's not really ea easy .
Industrial Designer: Help also . {vocalsound} Thank you .
Marketing: So it would be nice if we have one for all . And we also had a remote control for our radio set . But um i it it had a lot of buttons on it , and you didn't know which one was what . And it was uh uh v {vocalsound} not easy to use . So we n barely used it .
Project Manager: Okay so they have too much . So next .
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: For our own remote control we have to think how do we make it . So what ideas do you have for it , for the new remote control ? What what does it have to have ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The weight . Not not too heavy .
Project Manager: Not too heavy . Yes .
Industrial Designer: Not much buttons .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Bust-free . That when you drop it , it won't break . Like uh some kind of rubber on it . Or hard uh hard plastic . Uh buttons not too small . Uh something like when you uh lose your uh remote control , sometimes it happen . Uh it between the couch and you can't find it .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: When you push a but a button on the T_V_ , then you hear some {gap} {disfmarker} uh some sort of bleep .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Like a phone .
Industrial Designer: And then you uh , hey there there's remote control .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So ,
Industrial Designer: Next .
Project Manager: that's {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah well that's {disfmarker} that are good ideas . Uh {disfmarker} Yeah well the LED on the corner , that that indicates that it's working . If you push a button . Um {disfmarker} Yeah . And looking on the budget , not too expensive uh material . So probably plastic or something . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah I think it uh {disfmarker} from a marketing point of view , it also has to look nice . Or you won't sell it .
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: And um yeah uh on our website we can see what products we already have . And it should work with as many uh as possible of them .
Project Manager: Okay . This is {disfmarker} It has to be compatible with other things .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I have one more idea . Just popped up .
Project Manager: Yes ?
Industrial Designer: Uh it it won't take a lot of batteries . So you don't {disfmarker} won't have to change the batteries uh once a week or uh once every two weeks .
Project Manager: No battery use . So more ideas ?
User Interface: Mm no .
Project Manager: No okay . It's only the first ideas . So {vocalsound} uh what are we going to do now is {disfmarker} Next meeting is in half an h hour . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay . Next meeting , half an hour . Um , what you have to do . Well look on your {gap} . And {disfmarker} Next instructions you'll get in your email . So {disfmarker} This is the first meeting . See you later in half an hour .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Thank you .
Marketing: Okay .
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doc_22
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Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies, and I'm very pleased to welcome Angela Burns, who is substituting for Suzy this morning. We've also received apologies from Dawn Bowden. Can I also welcome Siân Gwenllian to the meeting? Siân is joining us from her constituency office via video-conference. Can I ask Members if they've got any declarations of interest, please? Hefin.
Hefin David AM: Apologies. I'm currently registered as an associate lecturer at Cardiff Metropolitan University, although I haven't done any work for them for some time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you very much. We'll move on, then, to item 2 this morning, which is our evidence session on the higher education new academic year allocations. I'm very pleased to welcome David Blaney, who is chief executive of the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, and Bethan Owen, who is deputy chief executive of HEFCW. Thank you, both, for attending this morning. We're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first questions are from Angela Burns.
Angela Burns AM: Good morning. Thank you very much, indeed. I just wanted to talk about, really, the financial sustainability of the higher education sector because, as we know, there's been all sorts of things going on in the press. So, can I just start with, actually, quite a technical question and ask you what the financial indicators look like for the universities here in Wales, and are there particular indicators that are really flashing warning signals to you?
Dr David Blaney: Well, shall I just start with a couple of contextualising comments and Bethan can come in then with some detail? It's undeniably the case there are financial challenges facing our universities. They result from three main causes: one is the impact of the demographic dip of 18-year-olds, which is deeper and longer in Wales than it is elsewhere in the UK. There are increased pension costs and, actually, increased costs generally. And, of course, we also have current uncertainty as a result of the Augar review in England, and whether that might play into Wales, and also Brexit. These challenges are not unique to Wales; the majority of the UK universities are actually taking out cost one way or another. So, this is not a Welsh issue. Before the Diamond review of fees and funding in Wales, there was a pre-existing funding gap in resource between England and Wales, and even now, that's still the case. So, Welsh higher education institutions are approximately £40 million worse off than they would be in the English system. That's a challenge, and that is a result from a political decision to invest in students, and that's fine. The money's gone into the system but it hasn't gone into universities, necessarily. So, these are serious challenges for institutions to manage, but I think it is a managed situation. We're not seeing a crisis; we are seeing some real challenges, and there is a distinction, I think, between—. We have to understand, though, that taking out cost to balance the books has a detrimental effect on the capacity. Obviously it impacts on the people who lose their jobs immediately, but there's a medium to longer term impact on the capacity of the system to deliver for Wales. They are taking out capacity; they're not cutting at fat now, they're cutting out core capacity. And so, the range of the curriculum, the range of research and innovation, the range of the contribution that universities can make will be diminished by that. And against that backdrop, the introduction of the Diamond reforms is hugely important—delivery of that is going to be really important—and we are really pleased to see the Minister able to meet her commitments in respect of that. The Diamond money is coming in. This forthcoming year will be the first year we see an increase in the resource, through us, to higher education. And the projections in future years are better still, and that will be extremely important. The performance of the sector is very good; we had the national student survey results out yesterday. Wales is still the best in the UK, which is excellent. We have the best impact from research in Wales across the UK. So, all of that is very positive, but that is also being done at some cost. There are some very tired staff in universities, and we've seen some stuff in the press recently about some of the impact of stress there as well.
Angela Burns AM: Can I bring you back to the financial element of that? Can I just ask a question: what are the university reserves looking like at present?
Dr David Blaney: Here, I refer to my learned friend.
Bethan Owen: The reserves are a measure. There's a difference between the distributable reserves—I don't have those numbers before me, but looking at reserves, what is more important are those reserves that are available as cash or liquid cash. So, universities have reserves, but a large amount of that is tied up in their estates, so they're not immediately realisable. So, one of the key measures that we're looking at, which is even more important than surpluses and deficit, is the operating cash that our universities are generating at the moment. When we look at operating cash in 2017-18, they were generating, as a percentage of income, about 7.6 per cent, which contrasts with nearly 10 per cent for the same year for English institutions. And that represents their capacity to generate surplus cash to meet their costs, which now, increasingly, include the costs of servicing their borrowings. So, again, because capital funding has not been as available to universities as it was, they've invested in their estates and that's largely been funded by borrowings. The costs of those borrowings have to be met on an annual basis, so that's becoming an increasing proportion of the operating cash that universities have.
Angela Burns AM: I just asked that question because I know that about four years ago, the universities were sitting on substantial reserves and were less than keen to deploy them back into actually using them for the students—it was more about building up the war chest, if you like, of the universities. And I just really wanted to have an understanding of how that picture might have changed over the last four years and are they actually skinnier cats now, rather than before.
Bethan Owen: We can get you that analysis, but even four years ago, I think the definition of exactly what's meant by reserves, it's really important to look at what are distributable reserves as opposed to the assets that universities have.
Angela Burns AM: Yes, I do understand the difference.
Bethan Owen: And, there are also differences in the way that universities have secured funding for investing in their estates. So, for example, Cardiff University have had a bond rather than borrowing, which you draw down as you're spending. So, in the short term, the reserves of Cardiff will appear as though they have significant cash balances, but all of those are restricted for investment in the estate and, over the next two or three years, will be utilised for that.
Angela Burns AM: So, overall, you're painting a picture of a sector that's under a significant degree of financial stress, and this is obviously using your key financial indicators. Do you monitor each and every university, or do you wait for them to come back and tell you what their situation is?
Bethan Owen: We monitor, we receive forecasts, five-year forecasts, and we meet frequently with all our universities now. It varies, depending on the risks of the universities, as to how frequently we meet, but we're actually meeting with every university because even the forecast that we received last July, the changes, even in the 12-month period, are significant enough for us to need a better understanding of what the latest position is. The forecasts, if I just run through—. We had a sector that, in 2017-18, had a deficit. Although it had a turnover and income of £1.5 billion, which had increased, nonetheless it had a small deficit of 0.4 per cent of income in 2017-18, which was an improvement on the deficit the year before of 1.7 per cent, but notably, again, the sector in England were looking at surpluses of 3 per cent to 4 per cent in the same period. The forecasts that we had this time last year were indicating that, for 2018-19, we should have a sector that's roughly in a break-even position, but that has to be caveated with waiting for new forecasts in July, where there will have to be a reflection of the pension costs, and there have been significant changes in pension costs, both for the teachers' pension scheme and the universities' superannuation scheme as well, and those will be significant costs that universities have to build into their forecasts at a time when their income, certainly their fee income, is not increasing, and that is the challenge.
Angela Burns AM: Are we going to lose any universities in the next couple of years?
Dr David Blaney: I don't think so. As I said earlier on, we're not seeing a crisis, we're seeing really challenging circumstances for institutions to manage. At the moment, our sense is they are managing them, so one of the things we try to do is to make sure that, insofar as we can see it, we are making sure that the institutions are alert to the challenges they're facing, and are actually engaging those challenges properly, and we are seeing that at the moment. So I think what we will see if the pressure continues unabated is more costs being taken out, so more jobs being lost, more capacity being lost, but that's not the same as falling over. I don't see people falling over. There is always the possibility of structural change within the sector, and that might be one of the solutions that institutions think about, but it's not a policy position, and it's not always a good short-term response to crisis anyway, actually. But I think, as I say, we're in a managed situation, but the challenges are quite acute. But I don't see an institution falling over in the foreseeable future.
Angela Burns AM: When you talk about structural change, are you referring to the fact that certain offshoots or divisions might close? I bring this up because I'm the Assembly Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, and I have had multiple representations from students, and their parents, who are about to go to Lampeter and who've been told that courses are being restructured, there's a massive staff loss, and they have concerns about whether the three-year commitment they're about to make to a course is going to be able to be sustained. So I am trying to drill down a little bit, because I think it's only fair for the students to know what they're up against, and also it's a bit like in the great depression—you can start a run on something, can't you? Because if enough people believe it, then suddenly enough people will stop going to what is an excellent little university, really top-quality in medieval literature, in archaeology. And I'm just talking about one, but I know there are problems in other universities around Wales, so I just wondered if you could comment on that and also what processes you as HEFCW might have in place to protect any student who does find themselves in a situation where their course appears to be disappearing before their eyes.
Dr David Blaney: So, there's quite a lot in that question, actually. Let me try not to forget any of the elements. First of all, your comment about causing a run is a serious consideration. So, if we look at the debate that happened in the Senedd last week, from my reading of the transcript, it was actually quite a balanced debate where pretty much every contributor made reference to the contribution that higher education is making. There was reference to the national student survey scores, and in many ways Wales is the best place in the UK to come and be a student, because you are looked after properly in Wales. But there was also a perfectly legitimate exploration of whether or not there's a crisis, and if you look at the way in which that was represented in the media, the crisis bit stuck and the rest of it didn't. At the point where the sector is trying very hard to recruit students, it's really quite unhelpful that you get that sort of representation. So we do need to make sure, I think, all of us, that we try to avoid a situation where there can be media amplification of a problem that's not actually as acute as the media are portraying it, and that is very harsh. I'm not being critical of the political process here, but it has ripples and we do need to be careful that we don't start a run on this. In terms of the specifics at Lampeter, we understand that there are no plans to close any of the departments, and there certainly will not be plans to pull the rug out from under continuing students. That is just not what institutions do. So there's an absolute obligation on them to meet their commitments, and that's a contractual obligation anyway, so it's a legal obligation. But we also have a quality machinery that we operate where we would expect institutions to be able to demonstrate that they've put in place appropriate arrangements to ensure that students can finish their programmes of study. So they're not going to be recruiting students to programmes that they're not planning to continue—they just are not going to do that. And if you think about it in a market context, it would be suicidal for a university to treat their students like that.
Angela Burns AM: But I have to ask these questions because the auditor was very clear that there was a material uncertainty in Trinity Saint David's financial plans.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, I understand that, so let’s come back to the material uncertainty. [Interruption.] No, I understand, and that's fine. What I'm hoping to try and express is that we have absolute confidence that the institutions will not do the dirty on their students. They will look after their students and if they're recruiting to programmes, they are recruiting to programmes that they are planning to run, and run through to completion. And the expectations that we place on them in terms of our quality assurance machinery is precisely that—when they are engaged in portfolio change, they have to look after the interest of the students that they currently have. In terms of our oversight and monitoring, our primary consideration, again, is the interest of the students. They are the people who have, in many ways, least influence over what happens in terms of the way an institution is managed. Although, they do have a voice and, actually, the arrangements for the student voice in Wales are, again, better than elsewhere in the UK. But, nonetheless, we do not wish to see students becoming innocent victims of difficulties of management and financing. And so that is our primary consideration when we're looking at these institutions. Our institutional risk review process is fundamentally designed to make sure that institutions are grappling with their problems before they become a crisis. So, we have machinery, which has 70/80 different factors and hundreds of questions that we ask twice a year, to interrogate the performance of the institutions and to make sure that we are seeing them managing the issues that they're facing. So, it's not the challenges you face, it's the way you face your challenges—it's a cliché—and, at the moment, they are managing them, but if we were in any way concerned that they weren't, the people who are most at risk in that context are the students and we will be intervening to make sure that they were cited, and we do intervene when we have to.
Angela Burns AM: Well, following on from what you said, I've just got two really specific technical questions, then, to ask, because you said that you look across the whole scope to make sure that they are meeting all of their correct liquidity ratios and so on. So, considering how much is invested in their estates, are you happy that each university's estates strategy and its financing is prudent and has appropriate governing-body oversight in place?
Dr David Blaney: Yes, so the estates strategies that institutions operate are overseen by either the full governing body or relevant sub-committees in respect of every institution, so there is proper governance oversight. And in all of those instances, there is staff and student engagement as well in the strategic approach on estates. So, the machinery is in place—
Angela Burns AM: Because it's the big thing that drives most of university borrowing, isn't it?
Dr David Blaney: Indeed, it is.
Angela Burns AM: So, if our universities are on a sticky wicket, we just need to know that the borrowing that they're undertaking is absolutely prudently assessed and is appropriate. So, as long as you're content, if I can hear you say that—[Laughter.]
Dr David Blaney: Okay. We're content on two fronts: one is that the governance machinery within the institutions is structured appropriately to look at that, but also that if the institutions are wanting to engage in anything other than relatively trivial borrowing, they have to get our consent as well. And what we don't do is second-guess everything, but what we do do is make sure that the governing body, or its relevant committees, have been asking the right questions. So, there are two bits to this.
Angela Burns AM: And then—sorry.
Bethan Owen: Can I just add to that, then?
Angela Burns AM: Yes, of course.
Bethan Owen: In asking for the forecasts, we have reinforced this year the importance of universities looking at different scenarios. So, to be looking at the demographic and maybe in the past, where there's potentially been growth in the system and universities have built that into their forecast, we have explicitly asked this year that we are provided—not just the governing body—with the scenario where there is no growth in the income. That's not the core forecast, but a scenario, so that it's quite clear how reliant the forecasts are on that growth, and if that growth doesn't come through, what the contingency plans are for ensuring that all the cost commitments can be met. And we should probably just differentiate between—we have a role before borrowings are entered into, but all the best forecasts in the world can never quite predict, certainly what's happened in the last two years, probably, in universities. So, there are significant borrowings that are now committed to and the key measures we are looking at are universities' capacity to meet their covenants and their repayments under those borrowings, because that's essential for maintaining their liquidity.
Angela Burns AM: Which actually, neatly, thank you, brings me to my last question, which is: have any universities broken those loan covenants or been close to breaking them, unable to pay their borrowings as and when they fall due?
Bethan Owen: There was a significant change in accounting standards in 2015, financial reporting standard 102, so most universities had to renegotiate their covenants, but it was because the accounts were looking very different. The accounting standards brought about changes in how income was recognised and how some service concession arrangements, largely student accommodation arrangements, and pension costs, significantly, were recognised in the accounts. So, most universities have had to renegotiate covenants, but we're not aware of any who've had to renegotiate due to covenant breaches, other than one which the University of Wales Trinity Saint David disclosed in their financial statements—that they did need to renegotiate their financing arrangements, which they have done earlier this year, and they have now negotiated new covenants. It's a core part of financial management in universities now that you manage your relationship with your lender as well as with us. Breaching covenants in themselves is different to doing that with your lender being unaware and the factors being within your control. So, again, from that perspective, we have the covenants built into our forecasts, we require the forecasts to show how the university are planning to be within their covenants. The nature of those covenants vary, but most of them require a measure of cash flow, a ratio between the cash generated and the cost of debt, so there is close monitoring that is required because of the borrowing in the system, as well as our ongoing monitoring as well.
Angela Burns AM: Thank you, Bethan.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Just before we move on to Hefin David, can I just ask you what your view, then, is on the statement included by auditors in the accounts of Trinity Saint David that there is material uncertainty?
Bethan Owen: Yes, I'll pick up on that. The material uncertainty largely relates—there is a note in the accounts that explains the factors that are being taken into account, but it largely relates to some significant cash receipts that have been subject to timing delays and the fact that the timing of these is essentially outside the control of the institution. The main delay relates to the receipt of funding for the Egin project, which was due to be received from the Swansea city deal. That funding has been delayed, but the sums due to the university are still due to the university—it's the issue of the timing of those receipts that is causing a cash pressure. Receipt of that funding would certainly reduce the cash flow pressure at the university at the moment. Just in terms of cash flows, all universities have to ensure that they are maintaining enough cash in their system to meet their payments as they fall due. Most of their costs are incurred on a monthly basis, staff costs in particular, but the income flows into universities are now less regular. In days gone by, that funding would largely flow from us and that would also come on a monthly basis. The funding from the Student Loans Company now, for example, comes in chunks. A quarter of that money comes in in October, a quarter in February, and the majority of it, half of it, doesn't come into the university in cash until May. So, that's quite a different cash management scenario for universities to manage; it requires holding cash balances to do it.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before I bring Hefin in, we're going to need to have a bit of agility, as Dai Lloyd would call it, in our questioning and our answers if we're going to cover the ground that we need to cover. So, Hefin.
Hefin David AM: How can we be assured that governance arrangements across the eight institutions are sufficiently rigorous but also consistent?
Dr David Blaney: So, the first point to make, of course, is that universities are autonomous, as you know—
Hefin David AM: I've just written 'independent and autonomous'.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, all of that. And they are charities and so on, so they have expectations in respect of that in any case. The university governing body obviously is an important part of the machinery, particularly in terms of generating constructive challenge for the executive within universities. The governing bodies all are expected to behave in a way that is consistent with the guidance produced by the Committee of University Chairs, the CUC guide, which identifies good practice. So, it’s a higher education code of governance and all Welsh universities work to that code. That code is itself up for review at the moment. So, that is an opportunity for that to be strengthened. Just in terms of governing bodies, it's also important that governing bodies engage in a process of continual refreshing, because that gives you a greater variety of perspectives, which is important. But it’s also important they have people who understand the higher education business as well as from other contexts. Getting that mix right is important. As it happens at the moment, there are also issues about ethnicity and gender balance. Half the chairs of Welsh university governing bodies are female. Half the vice-chancellors are female. That’s a positive position for Wales to be in. But I think our view would be that when you get an increase in the contextual pressures that we’ve been discussing already this morning, the role of the governing body actually becomes even more significant. So, we have encouraged the sector, both the chairmen of the university councils, but also the vice-chancellors, to engage in a process of an independent review of governance in Wales. We’ll be alongside that. We’ll be supporting that. But, actually, it’s important that they own it. And it hasn’t been hard for us to encourage that—they have been keen to take this opportunity to take stock. The Welsh higher education system is part of a UK system—they don’t want to be a million miles away from the rest of the UK in terms of expectations, but there is scope in Wales, given the scale of the sector, to actually construct something that is more challenging, I think, in terms of expectations, than might be the common denominator across the UK, and maybe some more exemplification. Importantly, in this exercise, we are not just interested in governance process. It’s going to be quite hard to do this, but I’m very keen that we engage—and the sector are up for this—in governance culture, because, actually, you can do process checks and you’ll have the right structure of committees and have the right sort of papers going, but, in the end, it’s the dynamic within that room and who’s asking which questions and how well informed they are, and whether it's an open culture or is it a defensive culture—these are really what influences the quality of decision making.
Hefin David AM: And how different are those cultures across institutions?
Dr David Blaney: I think it’s very hard to say. We don’t sit in the governing bodies of those institutions. Very occasionally we get to observe one. Typically, that’s at a point where there are sufficient difficulties going on that we feel that we need to—
Hefin David AM: Do you have the option to observe at any point?
Dr David Blaney: We can't insist, I don't think.
Bethan Owen: We can ask to.
Dr David Blaney: We can ask. But in the main, actually, our presence would change the dynamic of that anyway, so I'm not sure that's necessarily helpful. But we are keen to see what we can achieve with the sector in addressing these issues of what constitutes constructive challenge.
Hefin David AM: I take from that that there might be different approaches in different institutions. Is your aim to see consistency in the same approaches, then?
Dr David Blaney: I think we’d like to see a consistent minimum set of expectations. I think there are differences, because there are people involved. In the end, it’s about personalities, it’s about people’s background and it’s about their knowledge. And we have a role to play in this as well, so we have a toolkit that we produce for governors, which, essentially, is a set of information that locates their university in the context of the UK, across a number of factors. So, if they had been told something that is not perhaps as true as it might be by the executive, they can see that in the data. Whether that toolkit needs a refresh—I’m sure it probably does, it’s been there for a while now—. So, part of that is what information we can provide to help governing bodies be properly informed as well.
Hefin David AM: Yes, and this is the independence and autonomy thing. This is quite distant from Government—unlike other institutions, where you can prescribe some of these approaches.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, and in the end I don't think there's any pushback from the sector in terms of wanting to operate in accordance with best practice.
Hefin David AM: Yes, and I totally defend independence and autonomy.
Dr David Blaney: Absolutely. The challenge is all of us being clear what constitutes best practice.
Hefin David AM: So, what about risk appetite? Do you feel that any governing bodies are exhibiting what might be considered to be an imprudent risk appetite?
Dr David Blaney: I don't think so, and this manifests itself in two ways. So, we would see this coming through in forecasts, and we would see it coming through in requests for borrowings, predominantly. Actually, we'd see it in other ways as well. Our links into institutions are many and various, and we have our formal stuff, but we all have links into institutions that are informal and we—. One of the beauties of the scale of the sector in Wales is we can see the institutions in a way that they can't hope to in England. It's just completely different. And so we would see it in other ways. But we have, in some instances, I think it's fair to say, helped institutions to think again about some of their aspirations. So, where we've seen things and we think, 'That just looks ridiculously optimistic,' we've just asked the questions. We don't say, 'No, you can't do that,' because they are autonomous, they make the decisions, but we try to make sure that they're asking the right questions.
Hefin David AM: So, would you see that governing bodies are falling short in doing that themselves, in that, where they become strategic decisions that require due diligence, are the governing bodies themselves presenting that challenge? Or the fact you've just said that, does that suggest to us that, actually, they are falling short?
Dr David Blaney: I think there's a mixture of things going on. We have a slightly different perspective and we have a perspective that is very intimately informed in terms of how the institution is performing. So, you have a governing body with a range of perspectives, and you will also have people who are very committed and very enthusiastic about the institution, and just occasionally it's helpful to get a slightly external perspective on these things. So, I don't think it's a shortfall as such, but I just think—
Hefin David AM: The kind of honest broker role, kind of.
Dr David Blaney: The machinery depends on having a body like HEFCW doing some of that role, and the people who lend money to institutions are absolutely clear about that. So, we have relationships with the banks; they come and see us every now and again—typically not to talk about individual clients but just to talk about what we do and how we do it. Interestingly, for example, when Michael Barber got up before Christmas and said there will be no bail-outs of universities, we had banks on the phone to us within a couple of days, wanting just to talk about how it is in Wales and is it still how it used to be. So, they are very keenly aware of what we do. So, it's not really a governance failure; it's just that the machinery includes us.
Hefin David AM: Okay, that's important. And one of the things, from a distance—I mean, I've been involved in different ways in an institution, and looking at the institutions from a distance. There are people, as you say, involved, and people always make the difference in different cultures. Do you find that the relationships between executive teams and governors is effective, and are they sufficiently robust and challenging as well? Those executive permanent staff and the governors—is there challenge there?
Dr David Blaney: I would say, in the main, yes. Occasionally, we help the governors to ask the right questions, so occasionally that external perspective we've just discussed is helpful in that regard. Actually, there are times when there are tensions between the executive and governing bodies, inevitably—that's not something that's remarkable—and we can feel that as well. We have conversations with both governing bodies and executives.
Hefin David AM: And that can become apparent from a public point of view as well—you know, media reports and—.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, sometimes these things can spill, and the governing bodies also include student representation, staff representation, who are typically union reps, and so, you know, there are all sorts of—. I'm not in any way saying that people are indiscreet, but there are all sorts of interests that are sitting around that table that have to be managed within a governance context. So, sometimes it can spill. And these tensions are not all-out war, but there are sometimes differences of view and they have to be worked through, and that's governance working properly, I think.
Hefin David AM: Okay, which is—some of the work you've suggested will help towards that.
Dr David Blaney: Yes.
Hefin David AM: And a last question: you've identified one university as high risk, five as medium, and two as low in the short to medium term. You're obviously not going to tell us which, but what I'm interested in is the direction of travel, and whether those that are 'medium'—are they at any point at risk of becoming 'high' in the near future?
Dr David Blaney: I think it's fair to say that the direction of travel is that we're seeing an increased risk profile in the sector in Wales, and it's about the financial pressures that we've already discussed this morning. And that is why the efforts that the Minister has gone to to secure the Diamond settlement, and, indeed, other bits of money now and again, are so important. So, she's doing what she can, and that's really good, but we always knew that, between the point of the Diamond recommendations being made and the full implementation, there was going to be a valley to cross. The new machinery costs more as you phase out the old as well. So, the amount of funding was always going to be under pressure; there's a demographic dip, and there are the other contextual factors we've discussed. We always knew there was going to be a valley. And the institutions have been working very hard to try not to take cost out now that they really don't have to take out, because they don't want to reduce capacity, which they'll struggle to recover again when the financial position improves. So, they are seeing deficits, which are managed deficits, where they're spending more than their income in order just to keep the capacity in. So, they're being as responsible as we could expect them to be in this.
Hefin David AM: And, if you're back in a year or two's time, the next few years, are we confident that there won't be more in the high-risk category? You said you don't see collapse, but are we confident there won't be more in the high-risk category?
Dr David Blaney: Well, I think what I would always say about this process is that it doesn't guarantee 100 per cent accuracy. We can only go on what we can see. So, I wouldn't—. HEFCW is innately cautious as an organisation, so I'm not going to say we're confident, but that doesn't mean to say we're worried either.
Hefin David AM: Right, okay. So, to answer my question: are we likely to see more in the high-risk category or not?
Dr David Blaney: We might.
Hefin David AM: Okay.
Bethan Owen: And, just to add, I think the key bit of that is maintaining the attractiveness of Welsh universities to students, because a large proportion are coming not from just Wales, but from England and internationally—so, that's a key part—and also that our research portfolio is invested in, and that also brings economic benefits. So, I think those are the two that we are [correction: need to be] able to maintain: the institutions as attractive options for students, and that our research capacity is invested in.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. I've got a supplementary from Siân Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Just in the interest of transparency, are you able to tell us which universities are in which categories of risk?
Dr David Blaney: We don't publish that; we publish numbers. So, that's, I'm afraid, where we're going to stick.
Hefin David AM: They didn't even try to—[Inaudible.] [Laughter.]
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions then are from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Can you explain your overall approach to the 2019-20 allocations and what your priority for allocations has been?
Bethan Owen: We publish our funding allocations, and we published the 2019-20 allocations on 4 June. For 2019-20, we're allocating £149 million, and, as David said, this is the first year that we've been able to start putting funding, additional funding, in from the Diamond recommendations for investment in the sector. So, that means we've been able to increase our recurrent teaching funding by £7 million—not a significant amount, but it's a start. And we have maintained QR, which is our funding for research, quality research, and postgraduate research, at least at the same levels of £76 million, as it's been that in previous years. We've increased part-time funding by £1 million to £26 million, and we've started to increase support for expensive subjects—that's medicine, dentistry and conservatoire provision—and higher cost subjects—those are the sciences and the STEM. So, we made a start on that and increased that support by about £6 million to £20 million in total. And, in addition to that, we have strategic funding that we're maintaining for Reaching Wider projects and the Sêr Cymru project. And then, in addition to our recurrent funding, we have had strategic funding in our remit letters for the last two years. So, we're developing programmes for civic mission, community engagement, collaborations between higher education and further education, and, more recently, we had funding at the end of March to start to implement the recommendations of Graeme Reid's report for research investment, and also for developing mental health and well-being. That strategic funding is very welcome, but to be able to build those activities into our core funding, which we hope Diamond will bring, would be more sustainable for institutions.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Now, the Minister talks of one skills system. How do your allocations to the 2019-20 academic year support and incentivise collaboration between HE and FE?
Dr David Blaney: So, there are probably two dimensions to this. First of all, we have provided £3.5 million of separate funding specifically targeted to improve and increase collaboration between HE and FE. So, we put out a circular inviting proposals for that, and it was competitive, so we funded what was the best of the proposals, and we constrained it to be available only to pump-prime new activity or to add value to existing activity, but not just to keep things ticking over. We had seven bids submitted from across the three Welsh regions on a whole range of activities, which we probably haven't got time to go into now. I've got a long list here, but, for example, in south-east Wales, the University of South Wales is leading on a bid partnering with Cardiff University, Cardiff Met, with the Open University and all the FE players in the region. So, we were really pleased, actually. We tried to get it within regions, because that's how you get the biggest impact for learners in the area and also for smaller enterprises in terms of innovation work. So, that is a specific bit of funding designed to incentivise HE-FE collaboration. And then we direct fund a couple of FE institutions for delivery of higher education for historical reasons, and we also have our funding going through to support franchise activity between HE and FE. There are about 5,000 students who are studying HE programmes under franchise in FE colleges in Wales, and our funding method has, historically for some time now, protected that money. So, we try to prevent universities from taking the money out of franchise and onto campus, because we think it's important to try to encourage local provision within particular localities. And, certainly in areas where public transport infrastructure is perhaps not what it might be, for people to move to universities can be quite a disincentive, so—. But we encourage it that way as well.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Then, finally from me, the council's remit letter for the 2019-20 academic year from the Minister does ask you to consider how you'd increase openness and transparency around the use of fee income. So, what are the issues here, and how will you take this forward?
Bethan Owen: The reporting of the income and expenditure is largely provided, probably more so in narrative form in the accounts and the financial statements and annual reports of institutions. A number of institutions also provide graphs and more easily accessible information to understand the income and expenditure of universities. But we would accept that this information isn't easy to access at the moment. There are examples of good practice across the sector in presenting as simply as possible what the income sources are for universities and how they spend their money. And we're going to be working with the Welsh universities and sector bodies to improve the accessibility of that information for Welsh institutions. More transparent reporting of income and expenditure, and not just fee income, is actually very important for understanding how income cross-flows work in universities. Some reasonably simplistic analyses can assume that all the student fee just covers the direct costs of academic provision, but there's much more to the student experience than that, so there are costs: there are the infrastructure costs, the student support costs, even the community engagement and all the research activities bring benefits to the teaching and fee provision. So, more transparency of all the universities' income sources and expenditure and a better understanding of the income cross-flows and why you can't look at universities in isolation of student provision and research, you have to look at the whole—so, we'll be working with them to improve that information.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to go to Hefin David now for some questions on part-time student funding.
Hefin David AM: Part-time student numbers are bucking the trend in Wales, as I understand it, and we are seeing a bigger increase in Wales of part-time numbers than elsewhere in the UK. How is that going to be sustainable within current arrangements?
Bethan Owen: We've allocated £26.5 million in 2019-20 to support part-time provision, and we have been able in 2019-20 to fund some growth. So, there is growth in that funding to allow those institutions and incentivise those institutions who have recruited more students than last year to continue to do so. That came at an overall additional cost of £1.9 million, and, based on what we're hearing from student support, we're expecting to see that requirement increase. So, it's one of the areas where we'll need to look at how we prioritise Diamond funding. And at the moment, our intention—but subject to knowing the quantum of it—is to continue to support and fund growth in part-time provision.
Hefin David AM: So, is it possible—? With the Welsh Government's policy of developing lifelong learning, is it possible that will be ever spread more thinly?
Dr David Blaney: That is the challenge, and there's a piece of work that we have in our sights to look again at part-time and what it is and what the various drivers are. There's a temptation, I think, at times, to see it solely in terms of skills for an economy, and it is important for reskilling and upskilling, but actually, it's important for other things as well. If we see higher education solely in terms of skilling an economy, we've missed an important part of the contribution that higher education makes. But part-time is really quite difficult, because there's part-time that is about upskilling, part time that's about reskilling, there's part-time for social purposes, there's employer-supported part-time, there's student—. So, there's a complexity there.
Hefin David AM: But they are more reactive to rises in fees.
Dr David Blaney: Well, there is a sense that they are more price sensitive, yes, and so the support regime that the Government is putting in place is important, and that probably has made a difference to the numbers of part-timers entering the system this last year. But I think we need to stake stock of what is important about part-time, what the market will deliver, what the market won't deliver, what we should fund and so on. And there's a complexity around all that, as I've indicated, which we need to do a bit of work on with the sector, with the student body as well, just to take some stock of this over the next year or so.
Hefin David AM: Could we end up seeing significant fee increases for part-time students?
Dr David Blaney: My sense is we won't. The Government wishes us to monitor, so we monitor, and that in itself is not straightforward, actually. But your comment about price sensitivity, I think, is really the nub of it. There's a limit to how much a fee increase would be acceptable to the part-time market. So, I think it's kind of self-regulating in that respect. I don't think we'll see massive fee increases; we might see a bit, but we won't see masses, I don't think.
Hefin David AM: Okay.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now on funding for research and innovation, and also we'd like to talk a bit about a replacement for European Union funds. Siân Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you very much. If I could turn specifically to research, we know, of course, that both the Diamond and Reid reviews called for QR funding to be maintained in real terms, but the allocation is exactly the same for 2019-20 as it has been for the past nine years. Have you carried out any kind of assessment of the impact of this level of research funding on universities and, indeed, on the Welsh economy?
Dr David Blaney: I'm sorry; I missed the beginning of that because I couldn't hear this headset.
Lynne Neagle AM: Siân, could you repeat the question? Sorry. We had a bit of a problem with translation at the beginning.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, no problem. I was talking about the Diamond and Reid reviews at the beginning of my question and the fact that they had recommended that QR funding should be maintained in real terms. But, of course, the sum hasn't actually increased over a period of nine years.
Dr David Blaney: Okay. The reason the sum hasn't increased is because we haven't had enough money to be able to increase it and still meet the obligations we have to other bits of the HE system. We would dearly love to increase it. Both Ian Diamond and Graeme Reid were very clear about the importance of being able to invest in our QR research funding, for a number of reasons. The capacity of the sector to be able to respond to funding opportunities elsewhere in the UK and across the rest of the world is itself determined by the size and the strength of the research base, which is sustained by QR funding. If they go for UK-based competitive research funding, that is typically constructed on the absolute assumption that QR will be part of that mix. So, they tend to fund to 80 per cent of the actual cost of the research, with the expectation that QR will plug the gap. And we know that, although the Welsh research base is extraordinarily productive, and really is punching above its weight in many ways—and I mentioned earlier the impact of the research base in the last research excellence framework—we know that, actually, it could do so much more, if it just had more scale. So, we fully endorse the reports from both Ian Diamond and Graeme Reid that QR is important, and it's important also to be able to allow institutions to invest in research areas that emerge over time. It's almost impossible for a body like us, far less the Government, to know where these emerging strengths are going to come from, and QR provides the flexibility for institutions, which is absolutely fundamental to keeping the research base dynamic.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Therefore, you do have concerns that this isn't increasing—you have that concern of a lack of increase in the level of investment. But has any particular assessment been made of the impact of not increasing that funding?
Dr David Blaney: So, there is—. Graeme Reid's report produced an assessment of the correlation between QR funding and capacity to generate funding from other sources, and there's a very close correlation—
Sian Gwenllian AM: Has HEFCW done any assessment to look at the effect of underfunding research, to all intents and purposes?
Dr David Blaney: Not directly. We've relied on the expert assessment of people like Graeme Reid. It's sometimes more effective to have external experts making these points than us or the sector.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Your remit requires you to encourage universities to continue to develop one particular element of research, which is educational research. How does your allocation for 2019-20 contribute to that in terms of pedagogy and educational research specifically?
Dr David Blaney: Bethan, did you want to say something on this?
Bethan Owen: I was just going to add that, when we look at the funding that comes into our sector in Wales, compared with the rest of the UK, it's easy to see from the figures that our percentage of income that comes from research is smaller than in England, so the figures show that we receive less of the money that's available, which is a factor that results from us having less QR as a percentage, so we're in a situation where we get less of that UK funding that's available as well.
Sian Gwenllian AM: So, there's a knock-on to that; that's what you're trying to say. But from the point of view of my question on educational research—?
Dr David Blaney: So, we have provided funding in 2017-18 and 2018-19 to WISERD Education, which is a research collaboration between a number of the Welsh universities, specifically looking at educational issues, and we're providing additional funding to that to add value to the Welsh Government's existing evaluation of the progress of pioneer schools in developing the three-to-15 curriculum in Wales. I won't go into the full detail of it now, but it's a five-partner project feeding into this with researchers from Cardiff, Cardiff Met, Trinity Saint David, Aber, Bangor and the University of South Wales. So, it's a collaborative effort, and we have, in the past, also funded WISERD Education, so it's an important research facility and increasingly being used, I'm delighted to say, by Welsh Government in underpinning its own policy thinking.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And likewise, in 2019-20, there will be allocations specifically for this.
Dr David Blaney: It's a bit early to say yet. We haven't allocated anything specifically in the main allocations that we've put out. There might be others to come, but we're not yet in a position to say.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Well, could you provide the remit letter from—[Inaudible.]—do that? You have to do everything in the remit letters.
Dr David Blaney: We do what we can to pay due regard to the remit letters, as the wording goes. So, we have it in our sights, but we're not yet ready to make announcements.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And then turning to the impact of the loss of funds were we to leave the European Union. Of course, this is going to have a far-reaching impact on future research, and the Reid review has made recommendations to mitigate this impact. So, what assessment have you made of how allocations will be able to help universities to transition away from EU funding?
Dr David Blaney: So, again, the Reid review has done a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of an impact assessment for us. And we endorse, just as the Government has endorsed, the recommendations from Reid. The Government has committed in principle to delivering Reid. The challenge is finding the money, and we fully understand that. There has been an additional £6.6 million allocated for research very recently by the Government, which we have put out specifically in line with some of the recommendations from Reid. So, that's a start, but that's not sustainable funding, and it's not enough, really, but it is a good and welcome start. Reid was also not just talking about the money, but also talking about the way in which the Welsh research base both represents itself and also engages with UK-wide developments. And in response to that, we have recently issued our own vision for research and innovation, which was developed over a number of months, following the Reid report closely, working with stakeholders, including the Welsh Government, in order to try and set a vision for how we respond to the challenges facing research in the future, including the reduction, potentially, of access to EU funds. And a lot of that is—. These Reid recommendations all come together; they're coherent. A lot of that requires investment in the Welsh research base in order to be able to go for competitive funding at a UK level. Since it seems possible at least, and possibly even likely, that any money retrieved from not having to invest in the EU will sit in London rather than necessarily being devolved to the devolved administrations—we understand fully the Welsh Government's position on that, and we don't disagree with it. But either way, we need a research base that's able to compete, and that's why the investment recommendations of Reid are so important.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes. I think Reid was saying that there may be pots of money out there that aren't being accessed at the moment by Welsh universities. Are you able to help then within that process?
Bethan Owen: One aspect that we do intend to fund—and this is from Diamond, as well as Reid—is to place funding back into the system for innovation. We're consulting currently, with the intention, if the funding is available to us, clearly, in the year 2020-21, to provide £15 million back into the sector in innovation funding. That's funding that we had to take out when the new fee system came in. That is part of promoting the innovation, and part of the research portfolio as well.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Is that part of the UKRI funding? There is some £7 billion in the hands of that organisation, as I understand it, and there may be some possibilities there too.
Bethan Owen: That £15 million will be money that comes from us, but the intention is that the money will go in in order to improve universities' ability to access that funding from UKRI. So, Innovate UK would be the part of UKRI—and that we improve our ability to get funding from outside Wales. And, then, Graeme Reid says the same thing in terms of research—that we need more funding to do the same thing there.
Dr David Blaney: And, then, there's also the recommendation from Reid that Wales needs to be better embedded in the conversations that are going on on a UK-wide basis, so the Welsh Government has established a presence in London in respect of research, and we have a colleague in HEFCW who is fractionally embedded in the United Kingdom Research and Innovation specifically to respond to that recommendation. And that is actually paying dividends; we are strengthening our relationship with the UK machinery, which is essential if we're to understand where they're heading and what their funding bids are all about, and even to be able to influence those.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, Siân?
Sian Gwenllian AM: So, as far as research is concerned, it's not all doom and gloom.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, I mean, you know, things are looking up. There is money coming in and if the Government, as it is able to, can find money and can invest in this area, then that will help.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Just a couple of questions from me, then, before you close: what is your recent work on the 'basket of goods' show regarding student accommodation costs? And have any institutions used their 2019-20 fee and access plans to make commitments to more affordable accommodation for under-represented groups?
Dr David Blaney: First of all, on the basket of goods, the work we're doing now—we're currently in train in terms of analysing the data in respect of the basket of goods, so this is slightly premature, but our early look at the data indicates that there are no increases in costs, accommodation or other, that would cause us concern. So, it doesn't look like institutions are succumbing to the temptation to up their income streams from other costs. So, that's good. In terms of the fee and access plans, the sector has committed over £28 million of investment in student support-related activities from the fee and access plans, and that includes, in many instances, bursaries that are designed to help students cope with the costs of accommodation and the cost of living more generally. The support is provided for a range of purposes, but a couple of examples, just very quickly: Trinity Saint David, since we've talked about them a lot today, they offer £1,000 bursary to care leavers, which is in addition to local authority support for care leavers. Bangor also offer targeted support for care leavers, and these are often also extended, so they apply not just in term time, but throughout the holiday time as well, because people still need to live during the holidays. So, there is investment going in from the fee plans in that support.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And just one final question from me then, going back to Trinity Saint David: are you concerned that the governing body of Trinity Saint David has taken decisions that have led to that material uncertainty, and is that unprecedented in Wales?
Dr David Blaney: My view is that the decisions that the governing body made were, in our view, perfectly rational decisions to have made, given the information they had at the time. So, what's happened is that a number of unforeseen events have arisen, which, actually, I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to have foreseen, and it's just a combination of these that has caused the cash pressure. So, I don't see this as a governance failure, and they are engaging with those challenges.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you both for attending and for answering all our questions this morning? You did say that you would give the committee a note on reserves for the last four years, so we'd be grateful if we could receive that. And, as usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Thank you, again, for your time this morning.
Dr David Blaney: Thank you.
Bethan Owen: Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Deputy Minister requesting further information for our scrutiny of the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from me to the Children's Commissioner for Wales also asking for further information to pursue our scrutiny of the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter to the Minister for Education asking for an update on the framework for young people educated other than at school. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to propose that we resolve to meet in private for the remainder of this meeting and for the whole meeting on 10 July. Are Members content? Thank you.
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Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {gap} .
Project Manager: Right . Okay . Alright . Is everyone here ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: Okay . This is our conceptual design meeting . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I'll just take a few minutes and uh go through the previous minutes . Um then each of you will have your presentation , um and then we will need to make a decision on the concept for the remote control . And then we'll have uh forty minutes for finishing up . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I'll go through the mee through the minutes first . Um , we just refreshed our our uh goal of making the finest remote control available .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um we decided that , or we know that we need to use company colours , company logo . Um {vocalsound} and our Marketing Expert uh gave us some i uh information from interviews with a hundred different remote users . Um with some statistics that backed basically what we were thinking before . People thought their remotes were ugly , um um that remotes zap a lot . Um they only use uh a finite amount of buttons .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um and that they often lose the {disfmarker} it's easy to lose a remote . Um which were all things we were thinking we would {disfmarker} wanna make it simple . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} And uh some sort of locator . Either a button or tracking device . Um {disfmarker} And that it should look different than what's out there . Um {disfmarker} Kind of mixed mixed response on the speech recognition . The younger people said they wanted it , older people did not . Um uh I think we decided that um the expense was not necessarily worth it , and that it was probably a gimmick , that um would increasingly wear on the consumers' nerves . Um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Then the User Interface Designer um explored some of the technical functions of the remote . Um the simple versus the um the complex . The simple one being better for a user , the complex better for an engineer . Um {disfmarker} Um and some personal preferences that were found in that would be that it should be a user-oriented remote , something simple . Um and that we didn't wanna go with a universal remote , because uh increasing cost and increasing complexity . Um we would just have a T_V_ remote . Um and that we should also focus on the appearance of the remote . Have it s be something that looks different . And finally our um Industrial Designer uh gave us a rundown of how the remote will work . Um from energy source , um uh what we would use . Batteries because we don't wanna have a a cable . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How that would power the remote and the lamp . If we were to to have one . Uh um the user interface then would connect to a chip , {vocalsound} which would work with the infrared controls uh to send the signal to the T_V_ . Um {disfmarker} I believe then we came up with a couple of ideas for what we think the design of the remote will be . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um something that will fit into uh easily into someone's hand . {vocalsound} And with a , just a few buttons . Just the basics . And with a scrolling um function also . Okay and I will leave that , leave it at that . So {disfmarker} Marketing ?
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: We're watching trends .
Marketing: Yep . Can I have your cable please ?
Project Manager: I suppose that you can have this .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Thanks . Okay so I was looking at trend-watching . Um unfortunately I wasn't given too much information . I was given a brief executive summary , and then an update on some recent fashion trends that we might like to look at . And then I'll just tell you some personal preferences that I got from that . Um okay the most important finding was that the fancy look-and-feel seems to be twice as important to the users as the current functional look-and-feel design , which I think we've kind of already discussed before . Um the second most important finding was that the remote should be technologically innovative . And again these are all things we've kind of already come up with on our own , but this just backs it up . And thirdly the remote would be easy to use . As far as fashion update , we've learned that fruits and vegetables will be the most important theme for cloths , shoes and furniture .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So that might be a bit of a challenge to incorporate this into our remote , but we can try . Um and also , as opposed to last year , this year the material is expected to be spongy in feel . {vocalsound} Okay so from that um , as we've already said , we need to focus on a fancy look-and-feel . Um I think we've already discovered that it's kind of hard to go away from the traditional rectangular design . But I think that , even if it's very subtle , we need to kind of trick our consumers , so they at least get the idea that they're getting something that's new and modern and sleek and {disfmarker} Whether it's through the shape or the colours or all of that . Um for technologically innovative , we've talked about the tracking device . We brought up the idea of having two pieces , which we could discuss further . And Manuel had suggested um the energy source and the user interface , discussing some of those , um that we could change a little bit . We need to keep it simple , have limited buttons , which I think the two piece idea might be really beneficial for . {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} we need to incorporate this fashion trend of fruits and vegetables . I don't know , I mean I guess the two options are if we had our remote in the shape of a fruit or vegetable .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} A banana shape ?
User Interface: Oh it was sort of banana shaped . {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah . Right . Or with exterior designs . But my question is , I mean the stereotypically speaking , you kind of picture males with their remote controls , and I'm not sure how they'd feel about having fruity logos on the outside .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So maybe we could have something that's somewhat removable , or I don't know , different options for female , male target groups . And then the spongy feel . I guess we could look at mobile phones and other technology that's out there . C and look at different types of material that {vocalsound} might please our users who want spongy-feeling remote controls . So that's that .
Project Manager: So possibly like a uh ,
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: sorry , just to butt in for a second . Possibly uh like a cover like they have for mobile phones ?
Marketing: That's what I was thinking yeah .
User Interface: Those like , yeah , sort of spongy ones .
Project Manager: You have one with a flag , and one with a banana and one that's a spongy
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah . So when you buy your remote you can buy
Project Manager: feel to it . {vocalsound} You can {disfmarker}
Marketing: various coverings .
Project Manager: Mm various covers .
User Interface: What's it called ? Cust you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} personalised , yeah .
Marketing: Personalise your remote . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We could leave that to the cover department . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} We all know they've got nothing to do all day .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay . Why can't I see the {disfmarker} crazy . Um yeah I {disfmarker} talking about the interface concept and how the customer relates to , will use the , consumer will use the actual device . Um so I've looked at some of the stuff I was sent , um , try and get some inspiration . But keep in mind that our own ideas that we had . Um I was sent some information from the company saying that they , the technology department have devised a new speech recognition technology , where you can program questions into such devices . They gave an example of a coffee machine where you program a question , you program the answer , and the machine responds accordingly . Um okay . There's different ways of a user can use products l like a remote . Um there's a graphical use , where you you look at pictures and well on a screen . A command line where you obviously type things in , and you get a response . Um and then it ju that's just to point out the sort of inconsistent u sort of use of interface in remotes . You can't really see that picture well , but there's various different remotes , once again with lots of different buttons on , making it more complicated .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So , then I had a look at new products that are on the market . Not necessarily remote controls but ones that you'll recognise . Um this is the voice , there is a voice recognition remote control , which can control mus multiple devices . I have a {disfmarker} there is a picture {gap} . You surf your favourite channels uh with your voice . Store up to eighty speech samples , controls four devices , T_V_ , cable , satellite , V_C_R_ , D_V_D_ and audio . And you can record your own v verbal labels , that are connected to remote control functions . So the technology is there . Um the one on the left is very similar to what we drew up on the board in the previous meeting , where there {disfmarker} has scroll down functions on the side . You can sort of just make those out . And then on the right is obviously an iPod , which is you know possibly one of the simplest things to use out there , and really is , and all that is is just a a nice big scroll menu that y you sort of go through . That is a {vocalsound} possibility . And nothing's simpler really . Um then there's things like this , which is a a a kid's remote , where the the parents have the facility to control and program what children can watch before . So the remote control it o only allows them to access the channels that their parents want them to watch . And um it means that th children have a novelty of having their own remote control . So I don't know {gap} if there's a possibility of having one remote contr you know like we just had two components , maybe it can have more components you know , different remotes . Um the point made at the end there here is that you have to be sort of be {disfmarker} need to be clear on your um devices , as to what , you know , things you use . Sometimes an arrow pointing down , which may suggest volume down , could become confused just as a V_ for volume . Just little things like that , which would need to be made clear in the design . Um I think , d carrying on from what I've already said , a user friendly remote with minimum buttons . Maybe we've so suggested this two-part thing , where if it was to have a speech recognition thing , you could maybe control that on the {disfmarker} do it {disfmarker} or program all that on the control bit . And then just have the simple sort of hand-held thing that we sort of devised earlier , as the actual remote . Um I don't {disfmarker} it could be a graphical display , the actual remote contr the actual control port maybe could have like an iPod where you just sort of control through the menus . Stuff like {gap} gets more and more compli complicated . And then the the hand-held bit should be ergonomically designed . And that is it . Why am I {disfmarker} Oh yeah . Just {gap} . {gap} Where are we ? Uh . Just to sort of show you . M {gap} they've even got things like that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Huge things . Which is just {gap} for your gr ninety year old grandma yeah ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's industrial design for cranes , stuff like that .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Notice the giant dog bone shape ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Dunno .
Industrial Designer: Makes sense , makes sense .
User Interface: And that {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Also good for animals .
User Interface: Yeah . See . {gap} things {gap} . {gap} . Why's my screen crazy ?
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} Well let's see . I'm going to bore you with a couple of descriptions of the interior .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Just to to make it more obvious what we have to fit in there , and that we do have to fit the stuff in there . I've more information on possible materials um as well . What we can and cannot do . Um but let's just wait for this to load up and I'll show you what we're talking about here . Okay . The details of the components' design , as you can see there , what we have is the board , main board of the remote control . {vocalsound} The underside , that's pretty cheap piece of of technology really {gap} top left side you can see the chip , which is the , what we were talking about , this was is the device to recognise the signals the input , and it passes it on to a row of um further transistors and stuff like that on the right side that actually amplify the signal , which later on is being , is being transferred to a infrared lamp which then um of course shines infrared light onto the television which then will recognise what signal um it's getting and will do what you tell it . Um {disfmarker} So much for the the workings of the of the uh remote control itself . {vocalsound} Its job is to wait for you to press a key , then to translate that key press into infrared light signals , um that are received by the television . When you press a key um you complete a specific connection . The chip senses the connection and knows what button you pressed . It produces a morse code line signal specific to that button . Right . Pretty clear . Transistor amplifies the signal and then sends the m sends the signal to the L_E_D_ which translates the signal into infrared light . The sensor in the T_V_ can see the infrared light , and seeing the signal reacts appropriately . This is the circuit board from the other side . Um the lower part of it , I don't know if you can see that properly , with the green greenish board is is what we what we saw in the first the first slide just flipped over . Um you can see the circuit board itself . That's the cheapest uh way to make electronic connections basically on the market . Um what you do is you have , don't have cables , but you have the connections actually in these in these lines on the on the board . These are the actual keys that are being pressed . They close the electric circuit . That then sends the signal to the chip on the other side . That would be behind here . Um which uh sends it over to the transistors and all that stuff that
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: amplify the signal and all that is being sent to the infrared lamp up there . Now as you can see this is the the rubber button version of it . {vocalsound} Um the way it works is that you have the keys here . The rubber button has a little metal uh plate on the other side , which closes the circuit here . And thus gives on the signal . Now this is the simple version . {vocalsound} Um we are talking um this this the simple and cheapest version at the same time . We are talking something more complicated of course , it's going to be more expensive as well . And not only that . Um we are also restricted in the use of our outer shell , or in the material that we could use for our outer shell . Um {vocalsound} I've gotten some information that we could use for the case material plastic , rubber , as well . Um rubber that is used in these anti-stress balls . So it's pretty squishy . That would that would serve that purpose .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Spongy ?
Industrial Designer: Um {vocalsound} we could also use wood , or titanium .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} What's the approximate per hundred thousand for the titanium ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh fya
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't have an information on that . However our company {vocalsound} obviously can provide us with uh with the titanium , so I assume , I'm , I was given an okay to use it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It certainly is an expensive material ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'm aware of that , but I was given an okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But there are certain restrictions to certain materials . Now let's first go through the list with the materials . So we what we can use is plastic , rubber , wood and titanium . Can also mix these . Um as for the energy source , um we were talking about that shortly in the other meeting . Um what we could use is , or what I was offered , or what we could use , is a basic bateer battery . Right ? Uh a dynamo . Interestingly enough .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um we could use solar cells . Or a device that was not n not further specified that provides kinetic energy . Such as like watches you know . Where you just move them m move the the actual device and this pr uh provides it with with uh some energy . So um obviously I personally have to say that dynamo is out of the question really .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You don't wanna wind up your remote control before you can use it right ? Um solar cell is interesting . {vocalsound} May fail though , every here and there .
User Interface: Would you have to leave it by the window ?
Industrial Designer: Mm . Yeah
User Interface: {gap} yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: . Or you know you lose it , it lies behind the couch for a week
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} yeah mm .
Project Manager: Works well in Arizona but in Edinburgh not so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Always the {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Y probably not yeah .
Industrial Designer: exactly .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um the kinetic energy thing um might work , um but the same problem . You leave it lying around and you first have to shake it before it it starts to work .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So I'd say what we're stuck with really is um the basic battery . Which also makes a base station basically obsolete . We don't need that then . Um {disfmarker} However our interface options are push-buttons . In which uh in the production of which or in manufacture of which um our company is expert . Um {disfmarker} However we've discussed that scroll wheels are a better option . And they are possible . We have an okay for scroll wheels . Okay . Um however {vocalsound} when it comes to the scroll wheel of the iPod I've one big objection and that is that we have to fit an L_C_D_ into the remote control as well . This however may exclude certain um materials . If you have a squishy uh kind of remote control , then an L_C_D_ screen may be affected by the movement . Hence we might not be able to put it in there . So um {disfmarker} There's also restrictions {vocalsound} to , when it comes to the chip . If we have a more sophistic uh sophisticated scroll wheel rather than this very basic uh set-up that we that I've just presented , um the chip has to be more s more sophisticated and thus more expensive as well . I don't have any details to , when it comes to the cost but um it will be a significant difference . I'd rather say drop the titanium and therefore let's have a more sophisticated chip , but that's not up to me to decide really . {vocalsound} So that's for the for the scroll wheel . Um it limits our choice and squishy is hip , so I'd say rather not go for for that . Let's see now . Um um solar cells cannot be used on a curved or latex um surface or um remote control . But obviously that's not our problem um since we have decided or against solar cells , I assume right ? Or is anybody still {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No I think I think batteries are probably the way to go .
Industrial Designer: alright .
Marketing: No . Hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Alright .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh which makes it very conventional but therefore traditional I assume . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} With the titanium um we cannot make it a curved design . We would just be able to make it flat and and um yeah a straight design pretty much . Which I assume would exclude uh some of the more sophisticated versions . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Would the sort of {vocalsound} spongy and the the plasticky thing {disfmarker} y you can get those mobile phones that initially have a {disfmarker} it is plastic but then they have sort of a a s a cover on it which is just sort of soft and stuff .
Marketing: Mm . Like a covering . Yeah .
User Interface: So I don't know if that would still be possible to have you know {gap} in plastic . But then where do people hold it ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Just all be sort of spongy .
Marketing: The we can have the fruits and vegetables on the spongy parts , so they can remove it .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So you {vocalsound} as the the possibility of having a a graphical display on it , like a screen ? Like the iPod ?
Industrial Designer: You can have an L_C_D_ screen . Um but therefore no rubber will be used .
User Interface: Right .
Industrial Designer: Alright ? So plastic yes , titanium yes , but this will of course influence the form . With plastic , as I understand it , you can use any form . Um latex is tricky . Or rubber and um and titanium also seems to be tricky when it comes to the form . So the way to go is if you want a scroll wheel you either make it flat and angular , uh add an L_C_D_ screen , and um then you can basically choose either plastic or titanium . Or wood even .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um if you wanna make it a particular shape , use plastic . Add an L_C_D_ screen , add a scroll wheel , that'll be fine .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Or make it just push-buttons . Basically plastic gives you the b biggest variety of of options . Maybe not the nicest feel . Or not much originality really .
Project Manager: So the ru wait the rubbery {disfmarker} we can shape it however we want ? Or the rubbery we cannot ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} With rubber we could uh sh pretty much shape it the way we wanted it ,
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: but we cannot add scroll wheels , and we cannot add an L_C_D_ screen .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's the tricky thing .
User Interface: Could we not you know have a shape with a scroll and the screen , and then j just sort of that initial shape we had , just which is uh sort of banana-esque . So that's {gap} thing if we did it yellow .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: And um you know you just p stick on just sort of rubber things that that sort of grip the thumb bit . They wouldn't have any {disfmarker} they're just on the exterior . They wouldn't be necessary to the actual shape of the thing .
Project Manager: Is that an option , a plastic shell with a rubbery coating on at certain spots ?
Industrial Designer: S Certainly can be done yes . Um yeah . if that doesn't affect the functional side of it all .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Like say just the underside or so then it can be done . I assume . Yeah . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The fruit design um {disfmarker} How about um affecting the surface of the actual um remote control ? Say we don't make it p a particular fruit shape obviously ,
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: but uh give it like the surface of an orange , banana , whatever . You name it .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: What about a smell ?
Industrial Designer: Just design-wise .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: T {vocalsound} to the remote ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm . Nice one .
User Interface: You could just sell it in different colours as well I suppose . In different ye yellows .
Marketing: Bright citrus colours yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: I don't suppose we have to stick to co
Industrial Designer: Well we we're supposed to stick to the company colours though ,
User Interface: Stick to the colours yeah .
Marketing: Oh yeah .
Industrial Designer: that's yellow and grey .
Marketing: Yellow and grey .
Project Manager: Yellow and grey .
Industrial Designer: So what have we , lemon , banana , is {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm grapefruit . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Grapefruit .
Industrial Designer: Grapefruit
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: is what we'd go for , when it comes to the outer appearance perhaps . But {disfmarker} mm .
Project Manager: I would say , if I were to make a decision , I would probably put the fruit aspect at the lower lower end of the spectrum of of importance .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think having a shape could be a little ridiculous ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} like {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well we have it banana-shaped already , kind of .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well we kinda do yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well perhaps the implied shape will be enough to lure that fruit-minded remote buyer .
User Interface: Yeah . {gap} {vocalsound} and if it if it was done yellow , which is a company colour .
Marketing: {vocalsound} And if it's yellow ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: It's it's yellow . It's curved .
Industrial Designer: I it's yellow .
Marketing: Grey buttons yeah .
Project Manager: It's sort of {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well so why not add a couple of grey stripes and make it look like a banana ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: couple of couple of grey stripes .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} We could put the grey stripes on the bottom so that that person could turn it over .
User Interface: On the the gr the rubbery grips could be grey .
Project Manager: It would look like a banana just sitting on their table .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: There you go .
Project Manager: Rather than {disfmarker} {vocalsound} rather th {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It could {disfmarker} and then you could actually h put the banana-shaped thing on the fruit bowl , on the coffee table ,
Marketing: Oh .
User Interface: and then people would always know where it was .
Project Manager: Maybe the holder , if we were to have a holder , it could be shaped like a fruit .
Marketing: Nice . Could look like a fruit bowl .
Industrial Designer: It could be an ape . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Could be ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: it could be an ape or a fruit bowl . we could have a variety of options here .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Do you have more to your presentation ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's pretty much it . I informed you about the materials , what the interior has to look like , and what the limitations to certain materials are on
Project Manager: Oh .
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} there you go .
Project Manager: Okay . I'm gonna plug in here real quick . If I could .
Industrial Designer: Sure . Hang on . There you go .
Project Manager: Like I said we have to make a decision on a couple of these items here . Um {disfmarker} ow . Ow .
Marketing: So is the two piece idea out ? Or have we not decided ?
User Interface: Well we sort of {disfmarker} {gap} rid of that because {gap} gonna use a battery . And the base station might not be necessary .
Marketing: Oh right okay .
Industrial Designer: Well we can still design a two-piece uh remote um without having a base , having one of them be a base station ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but just have it be an optional either big remote with lots of functions , or you take out the smaller piece .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: We can still do that . However {vocalsound} of course this would be like designing two remotes pretty much .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So um which then , as I understand it , would probably limit the , limit again the the the use of certain materials , because they would be too expensive . Say like have a scroll wheel and uh on both of them , or have an L_C_D_ screen and so on so on . You'd probably have to stick rather with a just traditional rubber button
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: design which we saw there .
Marketing: Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But could be done , of course .
Project Manager: Okay . Uh so these are the decisions that we do need to make by the end of this meeting . Um for our components concept we need to come up with the energy source , um the chip-on-print , and the case . Probably case um material . And probably a shape also . Um and then for the user interface concept we need to decide what the tape , what , what the type is . And what kind of supplements we'll have . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Energy source I think we've , I think we've decided batteries , although not exciting , are probably our best bet .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: And we have five minutes .
Industrial Designer: Okay when it comes to the chip-on-print , as I said , the the more advanced features you want , um the fancier the chip has to be and the more expensive . Uh if you want just a normal button version , the chip-on-print is gonna be
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: a cheap one .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Right ?
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Um I guess we should pick the case then . If we go with the plasticky case , or the the plastic case , um then the chip-on-print is still kind of , we could have either or . We could have a complex one or a a non-complex . But did we decide that the rubbery feel was important enough to us ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Well what about what you said , like putting the
User Interface: Just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} .
User Interface: just maybe {disfmarker}
Marketing: finger grips just on top of the plastic ?
User Interface: yeah . Just a little bit of {gap} .
Project Manager: Okay . So we would , we would have the L_C_D_ screen ?
Industrial Designer: {gap} as long as the pla uh the rubber is nowhere near the controls , yes .
Project Manager: 'Kay . So I guess the case would be plastic , with {disfmarker} Perhaps that's not even enough rubber to qualify as being part of it . It's more of a su it's more of a supplement maybe .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: M more of a l lamination perhaps . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So then for the scroll , are we going for the iPod type ?
User Interface: Yeah I think so . I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah ? Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Which will require a more expensive chip-on-print right ?
Industrial Designer: Yes . It does .
Project Manager: 'Kay . So {disfmarker} I guess that , is that , is that about it ? So we have a good idea of what we're gonna need to to do on this ?
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Um okay so we will have another meeting in thirty minutes . Um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Here's what's gonna be going on . Um {disfmarker} Um Ryan you'll be working on the user interface design . Um {disfmarker} Manuel you'll be working on the look-and-feel design .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Corrine we'll want a product evaluation . And the two of you get to play with the uh modelling components and uh
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: maybe and and get us a prototype . Which should go along well with your look-and-feel design and your interface .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So that {vocalsound} basically {gap} just be working on the prototype , {vocalsound} uh we'll accomplish your other two actions .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright . {vocalsound} Okay . Let's do it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
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doc_24
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User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Good morning everybody .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Good morning . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Good morning .
Marketing: Good morning .
Project Manager: So , we are asked to to make uh uh a new remote control for television . And the characteristics of this new remote control should be original and trendy and of course user user friendly . So people can {gap} can use it without any any problem .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't know .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well , I think we should set the the points to to drive the project and uh
User Interface: Mm . B did you send us an email about this ?
Project Manager: Uh , not yet ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but if you want {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , we we received an email about this uh d designs . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do you want do you want me to send you a mail ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Ah it's Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Or you can put it in the shared folder .
User Interface: Yeah , you see the email ? You {gap} email . The v very {disfmarker} no , no the first one .
Marketing: No , I didn't get it .
User Interface: It's inside .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: This one .
User Interface: No , no .
Marketing: No .
User Interface: The third one . Oh , you didn't get anything .
Marketing: No , {gap} .
User Interface: It's strange . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Mm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} .
User Interface: I got an email about the dis about the discussion . Yeah .
Project Manager: You get email , {gap} . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I dunno from who .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , from the account manager .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} From the account manager . You have received the same email , right ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I think it's for your guys to {vocalsound} how to design it all the aspects so you need that information .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I think so .
User Interface: Yeah , so each of us has a role to do .
Marketing: Yeah
Project Manager: S
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think {gap} assign your uh roles .
User Interface: In each {disfmarker}
Project Manager: For each for each one .
User Interface: We already have our role .
Marketing: For each person , yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} 'Kay , we can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So there are {disfmarker} so we have three {disfmarker}
User Interface: So there are three kinds of designs , that's all .
Project Manager: f yeah . We have functional design , conceptual design , and detail design .
User Interface: Okay , alright . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , who will be the the responsible for the functional design ? Any any volunteer ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think our uh responsibilities will be assigned when we {disfmarker} in our mail we received from the account manager .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh
User Interface: I'm doing the interface .
Project Manager: You are doing th
Industrial Designer: No , I'm doing the interface . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} .
User Interface: Are you using the {disfmarker} you are doing the in {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah I I'm I'm {disfmarker} Well , maybe we have {disfmarker} okay so I {gap} industrial design . It was a little confusion about my uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Ah {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but it's alright .
Project Manager: Okay , I'll for industrial design .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . And and you {disfmarker} Norman ?
User Interface: Mm ? Um working on i . {vocalsound} User interface . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: User .
Project Manager: And {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh , I'm into marketing .
Project Manager: {gap} doing the marketing .
Marketing: {gap} yeah nothing much in the project .
Project Manager: Nothing related here to the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Marketing in this design .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: A design is basically for industrial design and the user interface .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You see the second mail ? Yeah , it's inside . Go down . Appendix .
Marketing: Yeah , this is {gap} .
User Interface: See there's a role for everybody .
Marketing: Yeah , that's right ,
User Interface: Even for the marketing .
Marketing: first {gap} . {gap} us user define .
Project Manager: Next {gap} .
User Interface: But look at your role , your marketing role .
Marketing: There's a trend watching .
Project Manager: I don't know .
User Interface: Yeah , that's your role .
Project Manager: I {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Well , I think we can have a little discussion about what has to be done
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and what are your ideas about the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: About the design or {disfmarker} Maybe we'll discuss this later , no ?
Industrial Designer: Well , w we want to have a new re remote control for for T_V_ distribution I guess .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So we have to {vocalsound} plan how how it would be developed and uh
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: how we can make it work {vocalsound} .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: I mean working remotes we already have . This will be something different from the other remotes {disfmarker} remote controls .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What we we have to keep in mind the {disfmarker} these characteristics .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I dunno I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And of course it should not be very costly .
Marketing: Yeah , that's right .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well I I think that Norman and I would think about um the technical points and um we should discuss it in the next meeting , or
User Interface: Need to collect information . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: About the {disfmarker} about what ?
User Interface: Um . {vocalsound} I I'm part of design , perhaps . Uh , what is most important in a {disfmarker} in a remote control ? What is the most important function aspect ? Uh .
Project Manager: You mean the external {gap} or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well , you have to make it work .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah of g of course .
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's alright .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's the {vocalsound} that's the big thing .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , it should be easy to work with .
Project Manager: Yeah {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We can think about an interface with uh well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh . We {disfmarker} maybe you can have a speech uh recognition interface . You just tell the television I want {disfmarker} which channel .
Project Manager: You won't {disfmarker}
User Interface: Or or you can say for example , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I want uh to list all the programme tonight . Y you know {gap} , instead of {gap} uh remote control it's doing the {disfmarker} some searching for you , so you don't have to look for the channel you want . Just say maybe I just want to press {disfmarker} I wanna have a button for all the movies tonight . Or a button for all the magazines , all the information {disfmarker} documentary tonight . And then you list a few , and I will choose from the list . So instead of pressing the channel number , I am choosing the programmes directly . Yeah , that's one way of uh making it useful .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: I I think if we include a lot of technology on the remote control it will be very costly .
User Interface: No , because {disfmarker} no ,
Project Manager: S {vocalsound}
User Interface: it's not very {disfmarker} a lot . Th this information exists . For example you can get um {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Like s uh you you you say we can use speech .
User Interface: You can use uh {disfmarker} well for example {disfmarker} anything . {vocalsound} The {vocalsound} the idea of using speech to reduce the button , but uh and it's more natural . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} I think if you want t to choose uh from a list of programme or or something like that you you may have to to use uh w uh I dunno
Marketing: I'm a {disfmarker} okay .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: I mean the main uh function of remote control is to have something in the hand
Project Manager: In the hand .
Marketing: and we should be very careful about the size of the remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: If we are going to add a speech interface , I'm not sure with {gap} trendy slim size of the remote control it would be able to put a speech recog
User Interface: Yeah . Yes , possible .
Marketing: if you want to put a speech recognition system f interface for that I think the T_V_ itself could have it .
User Interface: Yeah . But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: And I could talk to the T_V_ {disfmarker} television itself .
Project Manager: Except if if you are far from the T_V_ .
Marketing: I need not have an {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean we have some {gap} or something , different technology but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: This is {vocalsound} it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , yeah . But th the main idea I wanted to s I wanted to say is that um {vocalsound} there should be a function , instead of choosing the ch T_V_ channel , there's a option you can choose , either T_V_ channels or or pr or the or the contain or the contents of the programme .
Industrial Designer: On the content .
Marketing: Mm-hmm , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah it's it's a good idea it's a good idea
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So it's more powerful . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but I I think that technically it would be um a little bit uh uh more tricky to to achieve this than just to {disfmarker}
User Interface: No . No , because you see now all the T_V_ programmes are available on the webs . They they are {disfmarker} they are {disfmarker} they are available in X_M_L_ format or whatever the format . We don't care . We just say that this are some content . We just want to retrieve the content and then classi sort them by the types of programmes . Some of the websites they already provide this service ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
User Interface: so we can just use the service available . Download it uh to the {disfmarker} to this remote control .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: And then there's {disfmarker} there are only six buttons for six categories , or sev seven . The most there are only seven buttons . So I just choose the category one and you reuse the same button , for example to to choose among the the sorted list the programme you want , so {vocalsound} you don't have to choose among hundred channels , if you have hundred channels , you just have six buttons , seven buttons .
Project Manager: Yeah we should also optimise the the number of buttons .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well I I I I think that j just by using navigation buttons and the user interface on the screen we are able to uh navigate uh through the {disfmarker} Well channel programme or contents or {disfmarker} in an easy way , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: This is {gap} good idea .
User Interface: Yeah . Ah , yes . So {gap} . Yeah . Yeah , so you don't have to display here , just display on the T_V_ screen , right ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah in the dis display on the T_V_ screen
User Interface: Good idea {vocalsound} . Okay .
Industrial Designer: and just uh with the with your remote control would just navigate through the f
User Interface: I think I think that will be revol revolutionary {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Because all the T_V_ uh the the remote control have all numbers , lots of buttons and then you dunno what to choose in the end . Yeah . {vocalsound} Alright . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah . So {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I think for for the technical points we have to to to check how to gather the data from programme or contents and all this stuff
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So we have five minutes to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Ah w w we have sometimes to use the white-board .
Project Manager: Ah you can y you can you can use it if you {disfmarker} so , can we
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Five minutes .
Marketing: And another interesting idea for this would be to have an light adaptation system depending upon the picture of {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay . Okay .
Marketing: So , I mean , if you're watching a movie and suddenly there is a dark uh {vocalsound} some dark scene , the lights adapt themself .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: S
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: The lighting in the room changes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , but we are designing just remote control .
Project Manager: You {disfmarker} it {gap} .
Marketing: I mean , we have a option in the remote control . If we want to have that option , you press that button in the remote .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Oh right so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay , do you want to have a conceptual remote control there , or you just want to put the function in ?
Project Manager: Yeah . If if you you you can if you want you can use th the {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Please , Norman , draw uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Go on , draw something {gap} . {vocalsound} Mm .
Marketing: Oh , I'm afraid you forgot to put your lapel .
User Interface: Where is it ?
Marketing: The lapel .
Project Manager: Or before the before the the design that says {gap} .
User Interface: Ah , okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Where where is it ? Here .
Marketing: Yeah , that one .
Project Manager: Norman .
Marketing: Just plug it .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah , that's right .
Project Manager: Be before before writing you can uh sit and that says {gap} what we what we said
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: then after that you can you can use the {gap} . Yeah .
User Interface: Okay , alright . So so the most functional des mm the most important function is to ch choo buttons to choose the content . Right ? We agree on that , right ?
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Uh , uh first one is to uh {vocalsound} buttons i or it could be anything with {gap} buttons . Uh to choose uh content s or channels .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: So we have both . The user can choose w which one they want , right ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , by content or by channel ,
User Interface: By content or by channel .
Industrial Designer: it's a good idea .
User Interface: Choose by contents or by channels . And then what did we say just now ? Other than this .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: And uh we we have to find a way how to gather information about the contents .
User Interface: Okay , so technically how {disfmarker} the problems that {disfmarker} how to do it is to {disfmarker} how to get the content .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Challenge .
Industrial Designer: I think i it's not very difficult to to browse by channel but it's a little bit tricky to browse by contents so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay . Content . Okay , so these we have to work it out . So this one of the problem . And uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think that's the {gap} the things to do
User Interface: The main thing .
Industrial Designer: and uh to uh reflect about it
User Interface: Okay . Alright . Alright , okay .
Industrial Designer: and uh discuss it in the next meeting .
User Interface: So we are {disfmarker} we'll discuss it {disfmarker} we will get some information in the next meeting , so for now we get uh the funct this is the functional designer {gap} ? That's the first aspect . Right . We will {gap} get information and then we'll come back in . {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Thank you everybody . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , we'll come .
Project Manager: So maybe we'll meet in maybe five minutes ? And we'll discuss the other other aspects .
User Interface: Alright . Alright , okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Well thank you all {gap} . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Thank you , mis {vocalsound}
| |
doc_25
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Postdoc A: OK .
Grad G: How about channel
Professor C: Yeah , go ahead .
Grad E: We 're recording .
Grad G: Alright .
Professor C: Alright , and no crash .
Postdoc A: Hmm .
Grad E: I pre - crashed it .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD F: Pre - crashed !
PhD D: It never crashes on me .
Grad E: I think it 's actually {disfmarker}
PhD D: What is {disfmarker} what is that ?
Grad E: it depends on if the temp files are there or not , that {disfmarker} at least that 's my current working hypothesis ,
PhD D: Ah .
Grad E: that I think what happens is it tries to clear the temp files and if they 're too big , it crashes .
PhD D: Ah .
PhD B: When the power went out the other day and I restarted it , it crashed the first time .
Grad E: Oh , that 's right .
PhD B: After the power out
PhD D: So then there would be no temp files .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: OK . {comment} Hmm .
Grad E: Uh , no , it doesn't {disfmarker} it doesn't clear those necessarily ,
PhD D: Oh wait {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it doesn't clear them , OK .
Grad E: so .
Professor C: Hmm , no connection .
Grad E: It 's {disfmarker} i they 're called temp files , but they 're not actually in the temp directory they 're in the scratch , so . They 're not backed up , but they 're not erased either on power failure .
PhD D: But that 's usually the meeting that I recorded , and it neve it doesn't crash on me .
PhD B: Well this wasn't {disfmarker} Actually , this wasn't a before your meeting , this was , um , Tuesday afternoon when , um , uh , Robert just wanted to do a little recording ,
Grad E: Oh well .
PhD D: Oh {disfmarker} Oh , right .
PhD B: and the power had gone out earlier in the day .
PhD D: OK . Huh , OK .
Professor C: I don't know when would be a good excuse for it , but I just can't wait to be giving a talk t and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and use the example from last week with everybody t doing the digits at once .
Grad E: Yeah .
Postdoc A: That was fun .
Professor C: I 'd love to play somebody that .
Postdoc A: That was fun .
PhD D: It was quick .
Professor C: It was . It was really efficient .
PhD B: Talk about a good noise shield . You know ? You wanted to pe keep people from listening in , you could like have that playing outside the room . Nobody could listen in .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: Well , I had this idea we could make our whole meeting faster that way .
Professor C: Yeah . Everybody give the reports about what they were doing at exactly the same time ,
PhD D: And we 'll just all leave ,
PhD B: And then we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll go back later and review the individual channels ,
Professor C: yeah .
PhD D: and {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yep , and then everyone can listen to it later .
PhD B: right ?
Grad E: Yes . Absolutely .
PhD B: If you wanna know what {disfmarker}
Professor C: Actually isn't that what we have been doing ?
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad E: It 's what it sounds like .
PhD B: Practically , huh . With all the overlaps .
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Professor C: What are we doing ?
Grad E: I {disfmarker} Since I 've been gone all week , I didn't send out a reminder for an agenda , so .
Professor C: Yeah , and I 'm just {disfmarker}
Grad E: Do we have anything to talk about or should we just read digits and go ?
PhD B: I wouldn't mind hearing how the conference was .
Professor C: What conference ?
PhD D: Uh , I had one question about {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah , really . It 's all a blur .
PhD D: Aren't the UW folks coming this weekend ?
Grad E: Yep .
PhD F: No . The next ,
PhD D: Next weekend ?
Grad E: Next weekend , week from {disfmarker}
PhD F: right ?
Professor C: That is right . The next weekend .
PhD D: Sorry , not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not the days coming up , but {disfmarker}
PhD F: It 's like the {disfmarker}
Grad E: A week from Saturday .
PhD D: Yeah ,
Professor C: That 's when they 're coming .
PhD D: within ten days .
Professor C: That 's correct .
PhD D: So , are we {disfmarker} do we have like an agenda or anything that we should be {disfmarker}
Professor C: No , but that would be a good idea .
PhD D: OK .
Professor C: Why don't we w
PhD F: So {disfmarker} so the deal is that I can , um , {vocalsound} uh , I can be available after , uh , like ten thirty or something . I don't know how s how early you wanted to {disfmarker}
Professor C: They 're not even gonna be here until eleven or so .
Grad E: That 's good .
PhD F: Oh , OK . So {disfmarker}
Professor C: Cuz they 're flying up that day .
PhD D: Wait , this is on {disfmarker} on Sunday ?
Professor C: Saturday .
PhD D: Or Saturday ?
Professor C: Saturday .
PhD F: Saturday .
Professor C: S Saturday .
PhD D: OK .
Grad E: Well , y
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Eurospeech is due on Friday and then I 'm going down to San {disfmarker} uh , San Jose Friday night , so , if {disfmarker} you know , if we start nice and late Saturday that 's a good thing .
Professor C: No , I mean , they 're flying up from {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}
Grad E: Seattle .
Professor C: down from Seattle .
Grad E: They 're flying from somewhere to somewhere ,
Professor C: Yeah , and they 'll end up here . So b and also Brian Kingsbury is actually flying from , uh , the east coast on that {disfmarker} that morning .
Postdoc A: Excellent .
Professor C: So , i I {disfmarker} I will be {disfmarker} I mean , he 's taking a very early flight
PhD F: Oh .
Professor C: and we do have the time work difference running the right way , but I still think that there 's no way we could start before eleven . It might end up really being twelve . So when we get closer we 'll find people 's plane schedules , and let everybody know . Uh , So . That 's good .
Grad E: But , uh , yeah maybe an agenda , or at least some things to talk about would be a good idea .
Professor C: Well we can start gathering those {disfmarker} those ideas , but then we {disfmarker} we should firm it up by next {disfmarker} next Thursday 's meeting .
Postdoc A: Will we have time to , um , to prepare something that we {disfmarker} in the format we were planning for the IBM transcribers by then , or {disfmarker} ?
Grad E: Oh yeah . Absolutely .
Postdoc A: OK .
Grad E: So have you heard back from Brian about that , Chuck ?
PhD B: Yes , um , he 's {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , I should have forwarded that along . Uh , {vocalsound} oh I {disfmarker} I think I mentioned at the last meeting , he said that , um , he talked to them and it was fine {disfmarker} with the beeps they would be {disfmarker} That 's easy for them to do .
Grad E: Great . OK . So , uh , oh , though Thi - Thilo isn't here , um , but , uh , I {disfmarker} I have the program to insert the beeps . What I don't have is something to parse the output of the channelized transcripts to find out where to put the beeps , but that should be really easy to do . So do we have a meeting that that 's been done with ,
Postdoc A: He 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker}
Grad E: that we 've tightened it up to the point where we can actually give it to IBM and have them try it out ?
Postdoc A: He generated , um , a channel - wise presegmented version of a meeting , but it was Robustness rather than EDU so I guess depends on whether we 're willing to use Robustness ?
PhD B: Well for this experiment I think we can use pre pretty much anything .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc A: OK .
PhD B: This experiment of just {disfmarker}
Grad E: Well we had {disfmarker} we had talked about doing maybe EDU as a good choice , though . Well , {vocalsound} whatever we have .
PhD B: Well we 've talked about that as being the next ones we wanted to transcribe .
Grad E: Right .
Postdoc A: OK .
PhD B: But for the purpose of sending him a sample one to {disfmarker} f
Grad E: Yeah , maybe it doesn't matter .
Postdoc A: Great .
PhD B: I {disfmarker} I don't think it matte
Postdoc A: I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll , um , get {disfmarker} make that available .
Grad E: OK , and has it been corrected ?
Postdoc A: Oh , well , wait . Um {disfmarker}
Grad E: Hand - checked ? Cuz that was one of the {vocalsound} processes we were talking about as well .
PhD B: Right , so we need to run Thilo 's thing on it ,
Postdoc A: That 's right .
PhD B: and then we go in and adjust the boundaries .
Postdoc A: Yeah that 's right . Yeah , we haven't done that . I {disfmarker} I could set someone on that tomorrow .
PhD B: Right .
Grad E: And time how long it takes .
PhD B: OK .
Postdoc A: I think they 're coming {disfmarker}
PhD B: And we probably don't have to do necessarily a whole meeting for that if we just wanna send them a sample to try .
Postdoc A: OK . What would be a good number of minutes ?
PhD B: I don't know , maybe we can figure out how long it 'll take @ @ to {disfmarker} to do .
Grad E: Um , I don't know , it seems to me w we probably should go ahead and do a whole meeting because we 'll have to transcribe the whole meeting anyway sometime .
Professor C: Yes except that if they had {disfmarker} if there was a choice between having fifteen minutes that was fully the way you wanted it , and having a whole meeting that didn't get at what you wanted for them {disfmarker} It 's just dependent of how much {disfmarker}
Grad E: Like I {disfmarker} I mean I guess if we have to do it again anyway , but , uh
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: I guess , the only thing I 'm not sure about is , um , how quickly can the transcribers scan over and fix the boundaries ,
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and {disfmarker} I mean , is it pretty easy ?
Grad E: I think it 's gonna be one or two times real time at {disfmarker} Wow , excuse me , two or more times real time , right ? Cuz they have to at least listen to it .
Professor C: Can we pipeline it so that say there 's , uh , the transcriber gets done with a quarter of the meeting and then we {disfmarker} you run it through this other {disfmarker} other stuff ? Uh ,
Grad E: Well the other stuff is I B I 'm just thinking that from a data {disfmarker} keeping - track - of - the - data point of view , it may be best to send them whole meetings at a time and not try to send them bits and pieces .
Professor C: OK , so . Oh , that 's right . So the first thing is the automatic thing , and then it 's {disfmarker} then it 's {disfmarker} then it 's the transcribers tightening stuff up ,
Grad E: Right .
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: and then it 's IBM .
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm , mm - hmm .
Grad E: Right .
Professor C: OK , so you might as well ha run the automatic thing over the entire meeting , and then {disfmarker} and then , uh , you would give IBM whatever was fixed .
Postdoc A: And have them fix it over the entire meeting too ?
Grad E: Right .
Professor C: Well , yeah , but start from the beginning and go to the end , right ? So if they were only half way through then that 's what you 'd give IBM .
Postdoc A: OK .
Professor C: Right ?
PhD B: As of what point ? I mean . The {disfmarker} I guess the question on my mind is do we wait for the transcribers to adjust the marks for the whole meeting before we give anything to IBM , or do we go ahead and send them a sample ? Let their {disfmarker}
Professor C: Why wouldn't we s @ @ w i if they were going sequentially through it , why wouldn't we give them {disfmarker} I mean i are we trying to get something done by the time Brian comes ?
PhD B: Well I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean , I don't know .
Grad E: That was the question . Though .
Professor C: So if we {disfmarker} if we were , then it seems like giving them something , whatever they had gotten up to , would be better than nothing .
PhD B: Yeah . Uh . That {disfmarker} I agree . I agree .
Grad E: Well , I don't think {disfmarker} I mean , h they {disfmarker} they typically work for what , four hours , something like that ?
Postdoc A: Hmm , I gue hmm .
Grad E: I think the they should be able to get through a whole meeting in one sitting . I would think , unless it 's a lot harder than we think it is , which it could be , certainly .
Postdoc A: If it 's got like for speakers then I guess {disfmarker} I mean if {disfmarker}
PhD B: We 're just doing the individual channels ,
Grad E: Or seven or eight .
PhD B: right ?
Postdoc A: Individual channels . Yeah .
PhD B: So it 's gonna be , depending on the number of people in the meeting , um ,
Postdoc A: I guess there is this issue of , you know , if {disfmarker} if the segmenter thought there was no speech on {disfmarker} on a particular stretch , on a particular channel ,
Grad E: Well {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: and there really was , then , if it didn't show up in a mixed signal to verify , then it might be overlooked , so , I mean , the question is " should {disfmarker} should a transcriber listen to the entire thing or can it g can it be based on the mixed signal ? " And I th eh so far as I 'm concerned it 's fine to base it on the mixed signal at this point , and {disfmarker}
Grad E: That 's what it seems to me too , in that if they need to , just like in the other cases , they can listen to the individual , if they need to .
Postdoc A: And that cuts down the time . Yeah .
Grad E: But they don't have to for most of it .
Postdoc A: Yeah , that 's good . So . Yeah . Good , good , good .
PhD B: I don't see how that will work , though .
Postdoc A: What {disfmarker} what aspect ?
Professor C: So you 're talking about tightening up time boundaries ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: So how do you {disfmarker}
Grad E: So , they have the normal channeltrans interface where they have each individual speaker has their own line ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad E: but you 're listening to the mixed signal and you 're tightening the boundaries , correcting the boundaries . You shouldn't have to tighten them too much because Thilo 's program does that .
Postdoc A: Should be pretty good , yeah .
PhD D: Except for {vocalsound} it doesn't do well on short things , remember .
Grad E: Right , so {disfmarker} so you 'll have to I {disfmarker}
PhD D: It will miss them . It will miss most of the really short things .
Grad E: Uh - huh .
PhD D: Like that .
Postdoc A: But those would be {disfmarker} those would be {disfmarker}
PhD D: Uh - huh . It will {disfmarker} it will miss {disfmarker}
Grad E: Uh - huh !
PhD D: Yeah , you have to say " uh - huh " more slowly to {disfmarker} to get c
Grad E: Sorry .
PhD D: No , I 'm s I 'm actually serious .
Grad E: I 'll work on that .
PhD D: So it will miss stuff like that which {disfmarker}
PhD B: I {disfmarker}
Grad E: Well , so {disfmarker} so that 's something that the transcribers will have to {disfmarker} have to do .
Postdoc A: Yeah , but presumably , most of those they should be able to hear from the mixed signal unless they 're embedded in the heavil heavy overlap section when {disfmarker} in which case they 'd be listening to the channels anyway .
PhD B: That 's {disfmarker} that 's what I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm concerned about the part .
PhD D: Right , and that 's what I 'm not sure about .
Postdoc A: Yeah , I am too . And I think it 's an empirical question .
PhD B: Can't we {disfmarker} uh couldn't we just have , um , I don't know , maybe this just doesn't fit with the software , but I guess if I didn't know anything about Transcriber and I was gonna make something to let them adjust boundaries , I would just show them one channel at a time , with the marks , and let them adju
Postdoc A: Oh they can {disfmarker}
Grad E: Well , but then they have to do {disfmarker} but then they {disfmarker} for this meeting they would have to do seven times real time , and it would probably be more than that .
Postdoc A: Yeah , that 's it . Yeah .
Grad E: Right ? Because they 'd have to at least listen to each channel all the way through .
Postdoc A: And if {disfmarker}
PhD B: But i but it 's very quick ,
Postdoc A: Uh - huh .
PhD B: right ? I mean , you scan {disfmarker} I mean , if you have a display of the waveform .
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Grad E: Oh , you 're talking about visually .
Postdoc A: w Well , the other problem is the breaths
Grad E: I just don't think {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: cuz you also see the breaths on the waveform . I 've {disfmarker} I 've looked at the int uh , s I 've tried to do that with a single channel , and {disfmarker} and you do see all sorts of other stuff besides just the voice .
PhD B: Uh - huh .
Grad E: Yeah , and I {disfmarker} I think that they 're going much more on acoustics than they are on visuals .
Postdoc A: Well that {disfmarker} that I 'm not sure .
Grad E: So .
Postdoc A: What you {disfmarker} the digital {disfmarker} what the digital task that you had your interface ? Um , I know for a fact that one of those {disfmarker} sh she could really well {disfmarker} she could judge what th what the number was based on the {disfmarker} on the waveform .
Grad E: Yeah , that 's actually true . Yeah , you 're right . You 're absolutely right . Yeah , I found the same thing that when I was scanning through the wave form {vocalsound} I could see when someone started to read digits just by the shapes .
Postdoc A: Yeah , she could tell which one was seven .
Grad E: Um , maybe .
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Professor C: So I don't {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm now entirely confused about what they do .
Grad E: But {disfmarker}
Professor C: So , they 're {disfmarker} they 're looking at a mixed signal , or they 're looking {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what are they looking at visually ?
Postdoc A: Well , they have a choice . They could choose any signal to look at . I 've tried lookin but usually they look at the mixed . But I 've {disfmarker} I 've tried looking at the single signal and {disfmarker} and in order to judge when it {disfmarker} when it was speech and when it wasn't ,
Grad E: Oh .
Postdoc A: but the problem is then you have breaths which {disfmarker} which show up on the signal .
Professor C: But the procedure that you 're imagining , I mean , people vary from this , is that they have the mixed signal wave form in front of them ,
Postdoc A: Yes .
PhD F:
Postdoc A: Yes .
Professor C: and they have multiple , uh , well , let 's see , there isn't {disfmarker} we don't have transcription yet . So {disfmarker} but there 's markers of some sort that have been happening automatically ,
Postdoc A: Yes .
Grad E: Right .
Professor C: and those show up on the mixed signal ?
Postdoc A: Oh ,
Professor C: There 's a @ @ clicks ?
Grad E: N the t
Postdoc A: they show up on the separate ribbons . So you have a separate ribbon for each channel ,
Professor C: There 're separate ribbons .
Grad E: Right .
Postdoc A: and {disfmarker} and i i it 'll be {disfmarker} because it 's being segmented as channel at a time with his {disfmarker} with Thilo 's new procedure , then you don't have the correspondence of the times across the bins {disfmarker} uh across the ribbons uh you could have {disfmarker}
Professor C: And is there a line moving across the waveform as it goes ?
Grad E: Yes .
Postdoc A: Yes .
Professor C: OK , so The way you 're imaging is they kind of play it , and they see oh this happened , then this happened , then {disfmarker} and if it 's about right , they just sort of let it slide ,
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Grad E: Right . Right .
Professor C: and if it {disfmarker} if it {disfmarker} there 's a question on something , they stop and maybe look at the individual wave form .
Postdoc A: Oh , well not {disfmarker} not " look " .
Grad E: Right . Well , they wouldn't look at it {pause} at this point . They would just listen .
Professor C: They {disfmarker} they might look at it , right ?
Grad E: Well , the problem is that the {disfmarker} the interface doesn't really allow you to switch visuals .
Postdoc A: Not very quickly .
Grad E: The problem is that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} the Tcl - TK interface with the visuals , it 's very slow to load waveforms .
Postdoc A: You can but it takes time . That 's it .
Professor C: Uh - huh .
Grad E: And so when I tried {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that was the first thing I tried when I first started it ,
Postdoc A: Oh , oh . Visually . You can {disfmarker} you can switch quickly between the audio ,
Grad E: right ?
Postdoc A: but you just can't get the visual display to show quickly . So you have to {disfmarker} It takes , I don't know , three , four minutes to {disfmarker} Well , I mean , it takes {disfmarker} it takes long enough {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah , it 's very slow to do that .
Postdoc A: It takes long enough cuz it has to reload the I {disfmarker} I don't know exactly what it 's doing frankly cuz {disfmarker} but it t it takes long enough that it 's just not a practical alternative .
PhD D: That w
Grad E: Well it {disfmarker} it does some sort of shape pre - computation so that it can then scroll it quickly ,
Grad G: But you can cancel that .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad E: yeah . But then you can't change the resolution or scroll quickly .
Grad G: Oh , really ?
Postdoc A: Now you could set up multiple windows , each one with a different signal showing , and then look between the windows .
Grad E: So .
Grad G: Huh !
Postdoc A: Maybe that 's the solution .
Grad E: I mean , we {disfmarker} we could do different interfaces ,
Grad G: What if you preload them all ?
Grad E: right ? I mean , so {disfmarker} so we could use like X Waves instead of Transcriber ,
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Grad E: and it loads faster , certainly .
Grad G: What if you were to preload all the channels or {disfmarker} or initially {disfmarker}
Grad E: Well that 's what I tried originally .
Grad G: like doesn't {disfmarker}
Grad E: So I {disfmarker} I actually before , uh , Dave Gelbart did this , I did an interface which showed each waveform and ea a ribbon for each waveform ,
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: but the problem with it is even with just three waveforms it was just painfully slow to scroll . So you just scroll a screen and it would , you know go " kur - chunk ! "
Grad G: Oh , OK .
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: And so it just was not doable with the current interface .
Postdoc A: You know , I am thinking if we have a meeting with only four speakers and , you know , you could fire up a Transcriber interface for , y you know , in different windows , multiple ones , one for each channel . And it 's sort of a {disfmarker} a hack but I mean it would be one way of seeing the visual form .
Grad E: I think that if we decide that we need {disfmarker} that they need to see the visuals , we need to change the interface so that they can do that .
Postdoc A: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor C: So {disfmarker}
PhD D: That 's actually what I thought of , loading the chopped up waveforms , I mean , you know , that {disfmarker} that would make it faster {disfmarker}
Grad E: An But isn't {disfmarker}
Grad G: Hmm .
Grad E: The chopped up waveforms .
PhD B: The problem is if {disfmarker} if anything 's cut off , you can't expand it from the chopped up {disfmarker}
PhD D: So .
Grad E: Isn't that {disfmarker}
Grad G: Right .
PhD D: Right , but if you a at some point {disfmarker}
Grad E: And wouldn't that be the same {comment} as the mixed signal ?
PhD D: No , I mean the individual channels that were chopped up that {disfmarker} it 'd be nice to be able to go back and forth between those short segments .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Cuz you don't really nee like nine tenths of the time you 're throwing most of them out , but what you need are tho that particular channel , or that particular location ,
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD D: and ,
Postdoc A: Yeah .
PhD D: um , might be nice , cuz we save those out already , {comment} um , to be able to do that . But it won't work for IBM of course , it only works here cuz they 're not saving out the individual channels .
Postdoc A: Well , I {disfmarker} I do think that this {disfmarker} this will be a doable procedure ,
Professor C: Yeah .
Postdoc A: and have them starting with mixed
Professor C: OK .
Postdoc A: and , um , then when they get into overlaps , just have them systematically check all the channels to be sure that there isn't something hidden from {disfmarker} from audio view .
Grad E: Yeah . Yeah , hopefully , I mean {disfmarker} The mixed signal , the overlaps are pretty audible because it is volume equalized . So I think they should be able to hear . The only problem is {disfmarker} is , you know , counting how many and if they 're really correct or not . So , I don't know .
PhD D: I don't know that you can locate them very well from the mixed signal ,
Grad E: Right but {disfmarker} but once {disfmarker} once you know that they happen , you can at least listen to the close talking ,
PhD D: but you would know that they were there , and then you would switch . Right . And then you would switch into the other {disfmarker}
Grad E: so .
Professor C: But right now , to do this limitation , the switching is going to be switching of the audio ? Is what she 's saying .
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Grad E: Right .
Professor C: So {disfmarker}
Grad E: Right , so {disfmarker} so
Professor C: so they 're using their ears to do these markings anyway .
Grad E: did Dave {disfmarker} Did Dave do that change where you can actually just click rather than having to go up to the menu to listen to the individual channels ?
Postdoc A: Yes . Yes .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc A: Click {disfmarker} Um ,
Grad E: I had suggested it before . I just don't know whether he did it or not .
Postdoc A: I 'm not sure what {disfmarker} click what {disfmarker} click on the ribbon ? Yeah , you can get that {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah .
Postdoc A: oh , oh , get {disfmarker} you can get the , uh {disfmarker} you can get it to switch audio ? Uh , not last I tried ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Postdoc A: but , um , maybe he 's changed it again .
Grad E: We should get him to do that because , uh , I think that would be much , much faster than going to the menu .
Postdoc A: I disagree . There 's a reason I disagree , and that is that , uh , you {disfmarker} it 's very good to have a dissociation between the visual and the audio . There 're times when I wanna hear the mixed signal , bu but I want to transcribe on the single channel . So right now {disfmarker}
Grad E: Then maybe just buttons down at the bottom next to it .
Postdoc A: Maybe , I just don't {disfmarker} I don't see that it 's a {disfmarker}
Grad E: Just something so that it 's not in the menu option so that you can do it much faster .
Postdoc A: Well , I mean , that 's the i I {disfmarker} I think that might be a personal style thing . I find it really convenient the way {disfmarker} the way it 's set up right now .
Grad E: Well it just seems to me that if you wanna quickly {disfmarker} " well was that Jane , no , was that Chuck , no , was that Morgan " , right now , you have to go up to the menu , and each time , go up to the menu , select it , listen to that channel then click below , and then go back to the menu , select the next one , and then click below .
Postdoc A: That 's fine . Yeah , it 's true .
Grad E: So you can definitely streamline that with the i with the interface .
Postdoc A: Yeah , it could be faster , but , you know , I mean , th in the ideal world {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad E: What ?
Postdoc A: No I {disfmarker} I agree that 'd be nice . Yeah . OK .
Grad E: OK .
Professor C: So , um , Done with that ? Does any {disfmarker} I forget , does anybody , uh , working on any {disfmarker} any Eurospeech submission related to this ?
Grad E: I would like to try to do something on digits but I just don't know if we have time . I mean , it 's due next Friday so we have to do the experiments and write the paper . So , I 'm gonna try , but , uh , we 'll just have to see . So actually I wanna get together with both Andreas and , uh , uh , Stephane with their respective systems .
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah there was that {disfmarker} we that 's right , we had that one conversation about , uh , what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what did it mean for , uh , one of those speakers to be pathological , was it a {disfmarker}
Grad E: Right , and I haven't had s chance to sit down and listen .
PhD F: Oh , I haven't {disfmarker} I haven't listened to them either ,
Grad E: I was going to do that this afternoon .
PhD F: but there must be something wrong , I mean ,
Grad E: Well , Morgan and I were {disfmarker} were having a debate {comment} about that .
PhD F: unless our {disfmarker}
Grad E: Whereas I think it it 's probably something pathologic and actually Stephane 's results , I think confirm that . He s he did the Aurora system also got very lousy average error , like fifteen or {disfmarker} or , uh , fifteen to twenty percent average ? But then he ran it just on the lapel , and got about five or six percent word error ? So that {disfmarker} that means to me that somewhere in the other recordings there are some pathological cases . But , you know , we {disfmarker} th that may not be true . It may be just some of the segments they 're just doing a lousy job on . So I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll listen to it and find out since you 'd actually split it up by segment .
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: So I can actually listen to it .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD B: Did you run the {disfmarker} Andreas {disfmarker} the r SRI recognizer on the digits ?
Grad E: Oh , I thought he had sent that around to everyone ,
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad E: did you just sent that to me ?
PhD F: No , I d I didn't .
Grad E: Oh .
PhD F: Since I considered those preliminary , I didn't .
PhD B: I it wasn't {disfmarker}
PhD F: But , yeah , if you take {disfmarker}
Grad E: It was bimodal .
PhD F: So if you {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's actually , um , it {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} it was trimodal , actually {disfmarker}
Grad E: Oh , was it trimodal , OK .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD F: trimodal , so
Professor C: There 's zero , a little bit , and a lot .
PhD F: there were {disfmarker} {vocalsound} t there was {disfmarker} there was one h one bump at ze around zero , which were the native speakers ,
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: Zero percent error ?
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD F: the non - pathological native speakers .
Professor C: Y yeah .
PhD F: Then there was another bump at , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} oh , like fifteen or something .
PhD B: This is error you 're talking about ?
Professor C: Oh was it fifteen ?
PhD F: whe
PhD B: OK .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah . Those were the non - natives . And then there was another distinct bump at , like , a hundred , {vocalsound} which must have been some problem .
Postdoc A: Oh , wow ! Oh , OK .
PhD F: I can't imagine that {disfmarker}
Grad G: What is patho what do you mean by pathological ?
Grad E: Just {disfmarker} just something really wrong with {disfmarker}
Grad G: I 'm sorry , I don't {disfmarker}
Grad E: A bug is what I mean ,
PhD F: In the recording
Grad G: Oh .
Grad E: so that it 's like {disfmarker}
Grad G: Oh , OK .
PhD F: And there was this one meeting , I forget which one it was , where like , uh , six out of the eight channels were all , like {disfmarker} had a hundred percent error .
Grad G: I see .
Grad E: Which probably means like there was a {disfmarker} th the recording interface crashed ,
Grad G: Right .
Grad E: or there was a short {disfmarker} you know , someone was jiggling with a cord
PhD F: But {disfmarker}
Grad E: or , uh , I extracted it incorrectly ,
PhD F: But {disfmarker}
Grad E: it was labeled {disfmarker}
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: it was transcribed incorrectly , something really bad happened , and I just haven't listened to it yet to find out what it was .
Grad G: OK .
PhD F: So , if I excluded the pathological ones , {vocalsound} by definition , those that had like over ninety - five percent error rate , {vocalsound} and the non - natives , then the average error rate was like one point four or something ,
Professor C: What we 're calling .
Postdoc A: Oh . Oh .
PhD F: which {disfmarker} which seemed reasonable given that , you know , the models weren't tuned for {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for it .
Grad G: Hmm !
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD F: And the grammar wasn't tuned either .
PhD B: And it didn't matter whether it was the lapel or whether it was the {disfmarker}
PhD F: It was just a @ @ . I haven't split it up that way ,
PhD D: But there 's no overlap during the digit readings , so it shouldn't really matter .
PhD F: but it would be {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD F: Right .
Grad G: Right .
Professor C: No , but there 's a little difference ,
PhD F: So it should {disfmarker}
Grad E: There 's a lot .
Professor C: and we haven't looked at it for digits ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: right ?
PhD B: Yeah , so I was curious about that .
Professor C: And so , cuz {disfmarker} because what he was {disfmarker} what I was saying when I looked at those things is it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} I was almost gonna call it quadrimodal because {vocalsound} {disfmarker} because there was a whole lot of cases where it was zero percent .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: They just plain got it all right . And then there {disfmarker} and then there was another bunch that were couple percent or something .
PhD F: Yeah . But if you p if you actually histogrammed it , and {disfmarker} it was a nice {disfmarker} uh , you know , it {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker} zero was the most of them ,
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: A normal . Yeah .
PhD F: but then there were {disfmarker} the others were sort of decaying from there .
Professor C: Yeah , yeah .
PhD F: And then there was the bump for the non - natives and then the pathological ones ,
Professor C: I see . I see .
PhD F: so .
Grad E: Yeah , cuz some of our non - natives are pretty non - native . So .
Postdoc A: You {disfmarker} did you have , uh , something in the report about , uh , {disfmarker} about , uh , for f uh , forced alignment ?
Professor C: Yeah .
Postdoc A: Have you {disfmarker} have you started on that ?
PhD F: Oh , well , yeah , so I 've been struggling with the forced alignments . Um . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So the scheme that I drew on the board last time where we tried to , um {vocalsound} allow reject models for the s speech from other speakers , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} most of the time it doesn't work very well . So , {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} and the {disfmarker} I haven't done {disfmarker} I mean , the only way to check this right now was for me to actually {vocalsound} load these into X Waves and , you know , plus the alignments , and s play them and see where the {disfmarker}
Professor C: Hmm .
PhD F: And it looks {disfmarker} And so I looked at all of the utterances from you , Chuck , in that one conversation , I don't know which {disfmarker} You probably know which one I mean , it 's where you were on the lapel {vocalsound} and Morgan was sitting next to you and we can hear everything Morgan says .
Postdoc A: Hmm .
PhD F: But {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and some of what you {disfmarker} I mean , you also appear quite a bit in that cross - talk . So , {vocalsound} I actually went through all of those , there were I think fifty - five segments , {vocalsound} um , in {disfmarker} in X Waves , and {disfmarker} and sort of did a crude check , and {vocalsound} more often than not , it {disfmarker} it gets it wrong . So there 's either the beginning , mostly the beginning word , {vocalsound} where th you , um , you know , Chuck talks somewhere into the segment , but the first , um , word of what he says , often " I " but it 's very reduced " I , " that 's just aligned {vocalsound} to the beginning of someone else 's speech , uh in that segment , which is cross - talk . So , {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} I 'm still tinkering with it , but it might well be that we can't get clean alignments out of this {disfmarker} out of those , uh , {vocalsound} channels , so .
Professor C: Unless maybe we do this , uh , um , cancellation business .
PhD D: Right , but that 's {disfmarker} I mean , that was our plan ,
PhD F: Yeah , right .
PhD D: but it 's clear from Dan that this is not something you can do in a short amount of time .
Professor C: Oh , the short amount of time thing , right .
PhD D: So {disfmarker} so we {disfmarker} you know , we had spent a lot of time , um , writing up the HLT paper and we wanted to use that , uh , kind of analysis ,
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: but the HLT paper has , you know , it 's a very crude measure of overlap . It 's not really something you could scientifically say is overlap , it 's just whether or not the , um , the segments that were all synchronized , whether there was some overlap somewhere .
Grad E: c High correlation .
PhD D: And , you know , that pointed out some differences , so he thought well if we can do something quick and dirty because Dan said the cross - cancellation , it 's not straight - forward . If it were straight - forward then we would try it , but {disfmarker} so , it 's sort of good to hear that it was not straight - forward , thinking if we can get decent forced alignments , then at least we can do sort of a overall report of what happens with actual overlap in time , but , um {disfmarker}
PhD B: I didn't think that his message said it wasn't straight - forward .
Grad E: Well if we 'd just {disfmarker}
Professor C: Well
PhD B: I thought he 's just saying you have to look over a longer time window when you do it .
Grad E: Um - hmm .
PhD D: and the {disfmarker} but there are some issues of this timing , um , in the recordings
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: Right .
PhD D: and {disfmarker}
PhD B: So you just have to look over longer time when you 're trying to align the things , you can't {disfmarker} you can't just look {disfmarker}
Grad E: Well . are you talking about the fact that the recording software doesn't do time - synchronous ? Is that what you 're referring to ?
Professor C:
Grad E: That seems to me you can do that over the entire file and get a very accurate {disfmarker}
PhD F: I don't thi I d I don't think that was the issue .
PhD D: I {disfmarker} yeah , that was sort of a side issue .
Grad E: I didn't think so either .
PhD F: The issue was that you have {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} you have have {disfmarker} you first have to have a pretty good speech detection on the individual channels .
PhD D: And it 's dynamic , so I guess it was more dynamic than some simple models would be able t to {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so there are some things available , and I don't know too much about this area where if people aren't moving around much than you could apply them , and it should work pretty well if you took care of this recording time difference .
Grad E: Right , which should be pretty straight forward .
PhD D: Which a at least is well defined , and
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD D: um , but then if you add the dynamic aspect of adapting distances , then it wasn't {disfmarker} I guess it just wasn't something that he could do quickly {pause} and not {disfmarker} in time for us to be able to do something by two weeks from now , so . Well less than a week . So {disfmarker} um , so I don't know what we can do if anything , that 's sort of worth , you know , a Eurospeech paper at this point .
PhD B: Well , Andreas , how well did it work on the non - lapel stuff ?
Grad E: Yeah . That 's what I was gonna say .
PhD F: I haven't checked those yet .
Grad E: C
PhD F: It 's very tedious to check these .
PhD B: Mmm .
PhD F: Um , we would really need , ideally , a transcriber {vocalsound} to time mark the {disfmarker} you know , the be at least the beginning and s ends {comment} of contiguous speech . Um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} and , you know , then with the time marks , you can do an automatic comparison of your {disfmarker} of your forced alignments .
PhD B: Because {disfmarker} really the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} at least in terms of how we were gonna use this in our system was to get an ideal {disfmarker} an idea , uh , for each channel about the start and end boundaries .
Grad E: Oh , MNCM .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: We don't really care about like intermediate word boundaries , so {disfmarker}
PhD F: No , that 's how I 've been looking at it .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD D: Right .
PhD F: I mean , I don't care that the individual words are aligned correctly ,
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD F: but {vocalsound} you don't wanna , uh , infer from the alignment that someone spoke who didn't .
PhD B: Right , exactly . So that 's why I was wondering if it {disfmarker}
PhD F: so , so {disfmarker}
PhD B: I mean , maybe if it doesn't work for lapel stuff , we can just not use that
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD B: and {disfmarker}
PhD F: I haven't {disfmarker} I ha just haven't had the time to , um , do the same procedure on one of the {disfmarker} so I would need a k I would need a channel that has {vocalsound} a speaker whose {disfmarker} who has a lot of overlap but s you know , is a non - lapel mike . And , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} where preferably , also there 's someone sitting next to them who talks a lot .
Grad E: Hmm !
PhD F: So , I {disfmarker}
Grad E: So a meeting with me in it .
PhD F: maybe someone can help me find a good candidate and then I would be willing to
PhD B: We c you know what ? Maybe the best way to find that would be to look through these .
PhD F: you know , hand
PhD B: Cuz you can see the seat numbers , and then you can see what type of mike they were using . And so we just look for , you know , somebody sitting next to Adam at one of the meetings {disfmarker}
PhD D: Actually y we can tell from the data that we have ,
PhD F: From the insertions , maybe ?
PhD D: um , yeah , there 's a way to tell .
PhD F: fr fr from the {disfmarker}
PhD D: It might not be a single person who 's always overlapping that person but any number of people ,
PhD F: Right .
PhD D: and , um , if you align the two hypothesis files across the channels , you know , just word alignment , you 'd be able to find that . So {disfmarker} so I guess that 's sort of a last {disfmarker} ther there 're sort of a few things we could do . One is just do like non - lapels if we can get good enough alignments . Another one was to try to get {disfmarker} somehow align Thilo 's energy segmentations with what we have . But then you have the problem of not knowing where the words are because these meetings were done before that segmentation . But maybe there 's something that could be done .
PhD B: What {disfmarker} what is {disfmarker} why do you need the , um , the forced alignment for the HLT {disfmarker} I mean for the Eurospeech paper ?
PhD D: Well , I guess I {disfmarker} I wanted to just do something not on recognition experiments because that 's ju way too early , but to be able to report , you know , actual numbers . Like if we {disfmarker} if we had hand - transcribed pe good alignments or hand - checked alignments , then we could do this paper . It 's not that we need it to be automatic . But without knowing where the real words are , in time {disfmarker}
PhD B: So it was to get {disfmarker} it was to get more data and better {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to squeeze the boundaries in .
PhD D: To {disfmarker} to know what an overlap really {disfmarker} if it 's really an overlap , or if it 's just a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a segment correlated with an overlap ,
PhD B: Ah , OK . Yeah .
PhD D: and I guess that 's the difference to me between like a real paper and a sort of , promissory paper . So , um , if we d it might be possible to take Thilo 's output and like if you have , um , like right now these meetings are all ,
Grad E: Ugh ! I forgot the digital camera again .
PhD D: um ,
Grad E: Every meeting !
PhD D: you know , they 're time - aligned , so if these are two different channels and somebody 's talking here and somebody else is talking here , just that word , if Thilo can tell us that there 're boundaries here , we should be able to figure that out
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: because the only thing transcribed in this channel is this word . But , um , you know , if there are things {disfmarker}
Grad E: Two words .
PhD D: Yeah , if you have two and they 're at the edges , it 's like here and here , and there 's speech here , then it doesn't really help you , so , um {disfmarker}
PhD B: Thilo 's won't put down two separate marks in that case {disfmarker}
PhD D: Well it w it would , but , um , we don't know exactly where the words are because the transcriber gave us two words in this time bin
Grad E: Thilo 's will . But .
PhD D: and we don't really know , I mean ,
Postdoc A: Well it 's a merging problem . If you had a {disfmarker} if you had a s if you had a script which would {disfmarker}
PhD D: yeah it 's {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: I 've thought about this , um , and I 've discussed {disfmarker} I 've discussed it with Thilo ,
PhD D: I mean , if you have any ideas . I would {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: um , the , I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} in principle I could imagine writing a script which would approximate it to some degree , but there is this problem of slippage ,
Grad E: Well maybe {disfmarker} Maybe that will get enough of the cases to be useful .
Postdoc A: yeah .
PhD D: Right . I mean , that {disfmarker} that would be really helpful . That was sort of another possibility .
Grad E: You know s cuz it seemed like most of the cases are in fact the single word sorts , or at least a single phrase
Postdoc A: Well they {disfmarker} they can be stretched .
Grad E: in most of the bins .
PhD F: Mmm .
Postdoc A: I wouldn't make that generalization cuz sometimes people will say , " And then I " and there 's a long pause
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc A: and finish the sentence and {disfmarker} and sometimes it looks coherent and {disfmarker} and the {disfmarker} I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's not a simple problem . But it 's really {disfmarker} And then it 's coupled with the problem that sometimes , you know , with {disfmarker} with a fricative you might get the beginning of the word cut off and so it 's coupled with the problem that Thilo 's isn't perfect either . I mean , we 've i th it 's like you have a merging problem plus {disfmarker} so merging plus this problem of , uh , not {disfmarker}
Grad E: Right . Hmm !
Postdoc A: y i i if the speech - nonspeech were perfect to begin with , the detector , that would already be an improvement , but that 's impossible , you know , i that 's too much to ask .
PhD D: Right .
Grad E: Yes .
Postdoc A: And so i and may you know , I mean , it 's {disfmarker} I think that there always {disfmarker} th there would have to be some hand - tweaking , but it 's possible that a script could be written to merge those two types of things . I 've {disfmarker} I 've discussed it with Thilo and I mean {disfmarker} in terms of not him doing it , but we {disfmarker} we discussed some of the parameters of that and how hard it would be to {disfmarker} in principle {disfmarker} to write something that would do that .
PhD D: I mean , I guess in the future it won't be as much as an issue if transcribers are using the tightened boundaries to start with , then we have a good idea of where the forced alignment is constrained to .
Postdoc A: Well , it 's just , you know , a matter of we had the revolution {disfmarker} we had the revolution of improved , uh , interface , um , one month too late ,
PhD D: So I 'm no I don't know if this
Grad E: Oh . Tools .
Postdoc A: but it 's like , you know , it 's wonderful to have the revolution ,
PhD D: Oh it 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: so it 's just a matter of {disfmarker} of , you know , from now on we 'll be able to have things channelized to begin with .
PhD D: yeah .
Grad E: Right . And we 'll just have to see how hard that is .
Postdoc A: Yeah , that 's right .
Grad E: So {disfmarker} so whether the corrections take too much time .
Postdoc A: That 's right .
Grad E: I was just thinking about the fact that if Thilo 's missed these short segments , that might be quite time - consuming for them to insert them .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc A: Good point .
PhD D: But he {disfmarker} he also can adjust this minimum time duration constraint and then what you get is noises mostly ,
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Grad E: Spurious .
PhD D: but that might be OK , an
Grad E: It might be easier to delete something that 's wrong than to insert something that 's missing .
PhD D: Right . And you can also see in the waveform {disfmarker} exac
Grad E: What do you think , Jane ?
PhD D: yeah .
Professor C: If you can feel confident that what the {disfmarker} yeah , that there 's actually something {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: that you 're not gonna miss something ,
Grad E: Yeah . Cuz then {disfmarker} then you just delete it , and you don't have to pick a time .
Professor C: yeah .
PhD D: I think it 's {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: Well the problem is I {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a really good question , and I really find it a pain in the neck to delete things because you have to get the mouse up there on the t on the text line and i and otherwise you just use an arrow to get down {disfmarker} I mean , i it depends on how lar th there 's so many extra things that would make it one of them harder than the other , or {disfmarker} or vice versa . It 's not a simple question . But , you know , I mean , in principle , like , you know , if one of them is easier then to bias it towards whichever one 's easier .
Grad E: Yeah , I guess the semantics aren't clear when you delete a segment , right ? Because you would say {disfmarker} You would have to determine what the surroundings were .
PhD D: You could just say it 's a noise , though , and write , you know , a post - processor will just {disfmarker} all you have to do is just {disfmarker}
Grad E: If it 's really a noise .
PhD D: or just say it 's {disfmarker} just put " X , " you know , like " not speech " or something ,
Postdoc A: I think it 's easier to add than delete , frankly ,
PhD D: and then you can get {disfmarker} Yeah , or
Postdoc A: because you have to , uh , maneuver around on the {disfmarker} on both windows then .
Grad E: To add or to delete ?
Postdoc A: To delete .
PhD D: Anyways , so I {disfmarker} I guess {disfmarker}
Grad E: OK . That {disfmarker} Maybe that 's an interface issue that might be addressable .
Postdoc A: It 's possible .
Grad E: But I think it 's the semantics that are {disfmarker} that are questionable to me , that you delete something {disfmarker} So let 's say someone is talking to here , and then you have a little segment here . Well , is that part of the speech ? Is it part of the nonspeech ? I mean , w what do you embed it in ?
PhD D: There 's something nice , though , about keeping , and this is probably another discussion , keeping the stuff that Thilo 's detector detected as possible speech and just marking it as not speech than deleting it . Because then when you align it , then the alignment can {disfmarker} you can put a reject model or whatever ,
Grad E: Oh , I see . So then they could just like put {disfmarker} Oh that 's what you meant by just put an " X " there .
PhD D: and you 're consistent with th the automatic system ,
Grad E: Uh , that 's an interesting idea .
PhD D: whereas if you delete it {disfmarker}
Grad E: So {disfmarker} so all they {disfmarker} So that all they would have to do is put like an " X " there .
PhD D: Yeah , or some , you know , dummy reject mod
Grad E: So blank for {disfmarker} blank for silence , " S " " S " for speech , " X " " X " for something else .
PhD D: whatever , yeah . That 's actually a better way to do it cuz the a the forced alignment will probably be more consistent than {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: Well , like , I think there 's a complication which is that {disfmarker} that you can have speech and noise in s
PhD D: I mean if it 's just as easy , but {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: uh , you know , on the same channel , the same speaker , so now sometimes you get a ni microphone pop and , uh , I mean , there 're these fuzzy hybrid cases , and then the problem with the boundaries that have to be shifted around . It 's not a simple {disfmarker} not a simple problem .
PhD D: Anyway , quick question , though , at a high level do people think , let 's just say that we 're moving to this new era of like using the , um , pre - segmented t you know , non - synchronous conversations , does it make sense to try to take what we have now , which are the ones that , you know , we have recognition on which are synchronous and not time - tightened , and try to get something out of those for sort of purposes of illustrating the structure and the nature of the meetings , or is it better to just , you know , forget that and tr I mean , it 's {disfmarker}
Grad E: Well , I think we 'll have to , eventually . And my hope was that we would be able to use the forced alignment to get it .
PhD D: Right . That was everybody 's hope .
Grad E: But if we can't {disfmarker}
PhD D: And maybe we can for the non - lapel , but
Grad E: But if we can't , then maybe we just have to {disfmarker}
PhD D: is it worth {disfmarker} if we can't then we can fake it even if we 're {disfmarker} we report , you know , we 're wrong twenty percent of the time or ten percent of the time .
Grad E: Well , I 'm thinking {disfmarker} are you talking about for a paper , or are talking about for the corpus .
PhD D: Uh {disfmarker} uh , that 's a good question actually .
Grad E: I mean cuz for the corpus it would be nice if everything were {disfmarker}
PhD D: Actually that 's a good question because we 'd have to completely redo those meetings , and we have like ten of them now .
Grad E: We wouldn't have to re - do them , we would just have to edit them .
Postdoc A: Well , and also , I mean , I still haven't {disfmarker} I still haven't given up on forced alignment .
PhD D: No , you 're right , actually {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: I think that when Brian comes , this 'll be uh an interesting aspect to ask him as well b
Grad E: When {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: when Brian Kingsbury comes .
Grad E: Oh , Brian . You s I thought you said Ryan . And it 's like , " Who 's Ryan ? "
Postdoc A: Yeah , good question .
Grad E: OK .
Postdoc A: Well , Ryan could come .
PhD D: Uh , no , that 's a good point , though , because for feature extraction like for prosody or something , I mean , the meetings we have now , it 's a good chunk of data {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yep .
PhD D: we need to get a decent f OK .
Postdoc A: That 's what my hope has been ,
PhD D: So we should at least try it even if we can't ,
Postdoc A: and that 's what {disfmarker} that 's what {disfmarker} you know , ever since the {disfmarker} the February meeting that I transcribed from last year , forced alignment has been on the {disfmarker} on the table as a way of cleaning them up later .
PhD D: right ?
Grad E: On the table , right ?
Postdoc A: And {disfmarker} and so I 'm hopeful that that 's possible . I know that there 's complication in the overlap sections and with the lapel mikes ,
PhD F: There 's {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: but {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD D: I mean , we might be able , at the very worst , we can get transcribers to correct the cases where {disfmarker} I mean , you sort of have a good estimate where these places are because the recognition 's so poor . Right ?
PhD B: Yeah , we were never just gonna go with these as the final alignments .
PhD D: And so you 're {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: I agree . I agree .
PhD B: We were always gonna run them past somebody .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc A: Absolutely .
PhD D: So we need some way to push these first chunk of meetings into a state where we get good alignments .
PhD F: I 'm probably going to spend another day or so trying to improve things by , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} by using , um , acoustic adaptation . Um , the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Right now I 'm using the unadapted models for the forced alignments , and it 's possible that you get considerably better results if you , uh , manage to adapt the , {vocalsound} uh , phone models to the speaker and the reject model to the {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to all the other speech . Um , so
PhD B: Could you {disfmarker} could you at the same time adapt the reject model to the speech from all the other channels ?
Professor C: That 's what he just said .
Grad E: That 's what he was saying .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD F: That 's what I just said .
PhD B: Oh , not just the speech from that {disfmarker} of the other people from that channel ,
PhD F: Right .
PhD B: but the speech from the a actual other channels .
PhD D: Right .
PhD F: Oh , oh , I see . Um ,
Professor C: Oh .
Grad E: I don't think so . I don't think that would work ,
PhD F: No , it {disfmarker}
Grad E: right ? Because you 'd {disfmarker} A lot of it 's dominated by channel properties .
PhD F: th Exactly .
PhD D: But what you do wanna do is take the , even if it 's klugey , take the segments {disfmarker} the synchronous segments , the ones from the HLT paper , where only that speaker was talking .
PhD F: So you want to u
PhD D: Use those for adaptation , cuz if you {disfmarker} if you use everything , then you get all the cross - talk in the adaptation , and it 's just sort of blurred .
PhD F: That 's a good point .
PhD B: If you {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yep .
PhD D: And that we know , I mean , we have that . And it 's about roughly two - thirds , I mean , very roughly averaged .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD D: That 's not completely negligible . Like a third of it is bad for adaptation or so .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Cool . I thought it was higher than that , that 's pr
PhD D: It really {disfmarker} it depends a lot . This is just sort of an overall {disfmarker}
PhD F: So .
Professor C: Well I know what we 're not turning in to Eurospeech , a redo of the HLT paper .
Grad E: Right .
Professor C: That {disfmarker} I don't wanna do that ,
Grad E: Yeah , I 'm doing that for AVIOS .
Professor C: but .
PhD D: Yeah . But I think we 're {disfmarker} oh , Morgan 's talk went very well , I think .
Professor C: Bleep .
Grad E: Uh , " bleep " . Yeah , really .
PhD D: I think Morgan 's talk went very well it woke {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: Excellent .
PhD D: you know , it was really a well presented {disfmarker} and got people laughing {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: Yeah .
PhD F: Some good jokes in it ?
Grad E: Especially the batteried meter popping up ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad E: that was hilarious . Right when you were talking about that .
Professor C: You know , that wa that was the battery meter saying that it was fully charged ,
Grad E: It 's full . Yeah .
Professor C: yeah .
Postdoc A: You said , " Speaking about energy " , or {vocalsound} something .
Grad E: But that was funny .
Postdoc A: That was very nice .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: He {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he was onto the bullet points about talking about the {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} the little hand - held , and trying to get lower power and so on ,
PhD F: Po - low power
Grad E: and Microsoft pops up a little window saying " Your batteries are now fully charged . "
Postdoc A: That 's great .
Professor C: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Grad E: I 'm thinking about scripting that for my talk , you know , put {disfmarker} put a little script in there to say " Your batteries are low " right when I 'm saying that .
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah . No I mean , i in {disfmarker} in your case , I mean , you were joking about it , but , I mean , your case the fact that your talking about similar things at a couple of conferences , it 's not {disfmarker} these are conferences that have d really different emphases . Whereas HLT and {disfmarker} and Eurospeech , pretty {disfmarker} pretty {disfmarker} pretty similar , so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I can't see really just putting in the same thing ,
Grad E: Are too close , yeah .
PhD D: No , I d I don't think that paper is really {disfmarker}
Professor C: but {disfmarker}
PhD D: the HLT paper is really more of a introduction - to - the - project paper , and , um {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah , for Eurospeech we want some results if we can get them .
PhD D: Well , yeah , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} probably wouldn't make sense ,
Professor C: Or some {disfmarker} or some {disfmarker} I mean , I would see Eurospeech {disfmarker} if we have some Eurospeech papers , these will be paper p p uh , submissions .
PhD D: but {disfmarker}
Professor C: These will be things that are particular things , aspects of it that we 're looking at , rather than , you know , attempt at a global paper about it .
PhD D: Right , right .
Grad E: Detail , yeah . Overall .
Postdoc A: I did go through one of these meetings . I had , uh , one of the transcribers go through and tighten up the bins on one of the , uh , NSA meetings , and then I went through afterwards and double - checked it so that one is really very {disfmarker} very accurate .
PhD D: Oh .
Postdoc A: I men I mentioned the link . I sent {disfmarker} You know that one ?
PhD D: Oh , so {disfmarker}
Grad G: The {disfmarker} which one ? I 'm sorry .
Postdoc A: Um , I 'm trying to remember {disfmarker} I don't remember the number off hand .
Grad E: Those are all {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: It 's one of the NSA 's . I sent email before the conference , before last week .
Grad G: Oh , OK .
Postdoc A: Bef - What I mean is Wednesday , Thursday .
PhD D: That might {disfmarker} might have been the one {disfmarker} one of the ones that we did .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc A: I 'm sure that that one 's accurate , I 've been through it {vocalsound} myself .
PhD D: So that might actually be useful but they 're all non - native speakers .
PhD F: So we could compare before and after
Grad G: OK .
PhD F: and see {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah . Yeah , that 's what I was gonna say . The problem with those , they 're all German .
PhD F: oh , Darn !
Grad G: Yeah , that 's the problem with the NSA speakers .
PhD D: And e and e and extremely hard to follow , like word - wise ,
Grad E: So .
PhD D: I bet the transcri I mean , I have no idea what they 're talking about ,
Grad G: Yeah .
Postdoc A: I corrected it for a number of the words .
PhD D: so ,
Postdoc A: I 'm sure that , um , they 're {disfmarker} they 're accurate now .
PhD D: um ,
PhD F: Uh , actually I have to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to go .
PhD D: I mean , this is tough for a language model probably {disfmarker}
Grad G: Right .
PhD D: but {disfmarker} but that might be useful just for speech .
Professor C: Well .
Grad E: OK , Andreas is leaving {disfmarker} leaving the building . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: See ya .
Professor C: See ya . I don't think we 'll go much longer .
Grad E: Um , oh , before you l go {disfmarker} I guess it 's alright for you to talk a little without the mike {disfmarker} I noticed you adjusting the mike a lot , did it not fit you well ? Oh .
Postdoc A: Well I won I noticed when you turned your head , it would {disfmarker} it would tilt .
Grad E: Maybe it wasn't just tightened enough , or {disfmarker}
PhD D: Maybe the {disfmarker} yeah , the s thing that you have tightened @ @ ,
PhD B: Actually if {disfmarker} if you have a larger head , that mike 's gotta go farther away which means the {disfmarker} the balance is gonna make it wanna tip down .
PhD D: oh .
Grad E: OK . Anyway .
Professor C: Yeah . OK , see ya .
Grad E: Cuz , I 'm just thinking , you know , we were {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 've been talking about changing the mikes , uh , for a while ,
Grad G:
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Grad E: and if these aren't {disfmarker} acoustically they seem really good , but if they 're not comfortable , we have the same problems we have with these stupid things .
Postdoc A: I think it 's com This is the first time I 've worn this , I find it very comfortable .
Grad E: I find it very comfortable too , but , uh , it looked like Andreas was having problems , and I think Morgan was saying it {disfmarker}
Professor C: Well , but I had it on {disfmarker} I had it on this morning and it was fine .
PhD B: Can I see that ?
Grad E: Oh , oh you did wear it this morning ?
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: OK , it 's off , so you can put it on .
PhD B: I {disfmarker} yeah , I don't want it on , I just {disfmarker} I just want to , um , say what I think is a problem with this . If you are wearing this over your ears and you 've got it all the way out here , then the balance is gonna want to pull it this way .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad E: Right .
PhD B: Where as if somebody with a smaller head has it back here ,
Grad E: It 's more balanced .
PhD B: right ? Yeah .
Postdoc A: Oh !
PhD B: Then it {disfmarker} then it falls back this way so it 's {disfmarker}
PhD D: So we have to
Grad E: Well wh what it 's supposed to do is the backstrap is supposed to be under your crown , and so that should be {disfmarker} should be {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: Ah .
Grad E: if it 's right against your head there , which is what it 's supposed to be , that balances it so it doesn't slide up .
PhD B: So this is supposed to be under that little protuberance .
Grad E: Yep , right {disfmarker} right below {disfmarker} if you feel the back of your head , you feel a little lump ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad E: um , and so it 's supposed to be right under that .
PhD B: So it 's really supposed to go more like this than like this .
Grad E: Yes , exactly .
PhD B: But then isn't that going to {disfmarker} Well , I guess you can control that .
Grad E: That {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that tilts , right ? In lots and lots of different ways .
PhD D: So I 'm not saying anything about bias towards small headsize ,
Grad E: About heads ?
PhD D: but does seem , uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: It would be an advantage .
Postdoc A: Well , wonder if it 's {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if he was wearing it over his hair instead of under his hair .
Professor C: Well , we should {disfmarker} We shou we should work on compressing the heads , and {disfmarker}
Grad E: I think probably it was {disfmarker} Yeah . It probably just wasn't tight enough to the back of his head . I mean , so the directions do talk about bending it to your size , which is not really what we want .
PhD B: The other thing that would do it would be to hang a five pound weight off the back .
Professor C: Yeah
PhD D: Right .
Professor C: that 's good !
Postdoc A: What did you say ?
PhD D: A little ,
Grad E: wh
Professor C: Hang a five pound weight off the {disfmarker} off the back .
PhD B: Hang a five pound weight off the back .
PhD D: um ,
Grad E: We did that {disfmarker}
Professor C: Weight .
Grad E: We {disfmarker} at Boeing I used {disfmarker} I was doing augmented reality so they had head - mounts on , and we {disfmarker} we had a little jury - rigged one with a welder 's helmet ,
PhD B: Counter - balance .
Grad E: and we had just a bag with a bunch of marbles in it {vocalsound} as a counter - balance .
Professor C: Or maybe this could be helpful just for evening the conversation between people . If people {disfmarker} those who talk a lot have to wear heavier weights or something , and {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah !
Professor C: and {disfmarker} um ,
Grad E: Anyway .
Professor C: um , so , uh , what was I gonna say ? Oh , yeah , I was gonna say , uh , I had these , uh , conversations with NIST folks also while I was there and {disfmarker} and , uh , um , so they {disfmarker} they have their {disfmarker} their plan for a room , uh , with , um , mikes in the middle of the table , and , uh , close - mounted mikes ,
Grad E: Yep .
Professor C: and they 're talking about close - mounted and lapels , just cuz
PhD D: And arrays ,
Professor C: sort of {disfmarker} and the array .
Grad E: And arrays ,
Professor C: Yeah , so they were {disfmarker}
PhD D: which is the i interesting {disfmarker}
Grad E: yep . And cameras .
Professor C: And yeah , like multiple {disfmarker} multiple video cameras coverin covering every {disfmarker} everybody {disfmarker} every place in the room ,
PhD D: and video , right .
Professor C: uh , the {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the mikes in the middle , the head - mounted mikes , the lapel mikes , the array , uh , with {disfmarker} well , there 's some discussion of fifty - nine ,
Grad E: Fifty - nine elements .
Professor C: they might go down to fifty - seven Because , uh , there is , uh , some pressure from a couple people at the meeting for them to use a KEMAR head . I forget what KEMAR , uh , stands for ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: but what it is is it 's dummy head that is very specially designed ,
Grad E: Oh , that 's right .
Professor C: and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , so what they 're actually doing is they 're really {disfmarker} there 's really two recording systems .
PhD D: Right .
Grad E: Yep .
PhD D: That 's a great idea .
Professor C: So they may not be precisely synchronous , but the but there 's two {disfmarker} two recording systems , one with , I think , twenty - four channels , and one with sixty - four channels . And the sixty - four channel one is for the array , but they 've got some empty channels there , and anyway they {disfmarker} like they 're saying they may give up a couple or something if {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for the KEMAR head if they go {disfmarker} go with that .
Grad E: Right . Yeah , it is a good idea .
Professor C: So .
Grad E: Yeah , h uh , J Jonathan Fiscus did say that , uh , they have lots of software for doing calibration for skew and offset between channels
PhD D: Mm - hmm
Grad E: and that they 've found that 's just not a big deal .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: So .
Professor C: Yeah , I 'm not {pause} too worried about that . I was thinking {disfmarker}
PhD D: But they 're still planning to do like fake {disfmarker}
Grad E: Scenario - based .
PhD D: they have to do something like that ,
Grad E: Y right .
PhD D: right .
Grad E: Their {disfmarker} their legal issues won't allow them to do otherwise .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: But it sounded like they were {pause} pretty well thought out
PhD D: Yeah , th that 's true .
Grad E: and they 're {disfmarker} they 're gonna be real meetings ,
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: it 's just that they 're with str with people who would not be meeting otherwise .
PhD B: Did {disfmarker} did they give a talk on this or was this informal ?
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: So .
PhD D: No .
Grad E: No .
Professor C: No , we just had some discussions , various discussions with them .
Grad E: It 's just informal .
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah , I also sat and chatted with several of the NIST folks . They seemed like a good group .
PhD B: What was the , um {disfmarker} the paper by , um , Lori Lamel that you mentioned ?
Professor C: Um , yeah , we sh we should just have you {disfmarker} have you read it , but , I mea ba i i uh , we 've all got these little proceedings ,
Postdoc A: Mmm , yeah .
Professor C: but , um , basically , it was about , um , uh , going to a new task where you have insufficient data and using {disfmarker} using data from something else , and adapting , and how well that works . Uh , so in {disfmarker} in fact it was pretty related to what Liz and Andreas did , uh , except that this was not with meeting stuff , it was with
Grad E: Right .
Professor C: uh , like I think they s didn't they start off with Broadcast News system ? And then they went to {disfmarker}
Grad E: The - their Broadcast News was their acoustic models and then all the other tasks were much simpler .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: So they were command and control and that sort of thing .
Professor C: TI - digits was one of them , and , uh , Wall Street Journal .
Grad E: Yep .
PhD B: What was their rough {disfmarker} what was their conclusion ?
Grad E: Yeah , read Wall Street Journal . It works .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: Well , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a good paper , I mean {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah , yeah .
Grad E: Yeah . Yeah , that was one of the ones that I liked .
PhD D: Bring the {disfmarker}
Grad E: That {disfmarker} It not only works , in some cases it was better , which I thought was pretty interesting , but that 's cuz they didn't control for parameters . So .
Professor C: Probably .
Grad E: You know , the Broadcast News nets were {disfmarker} not nets ,
PhD D: Right .
PhD B: Did they ever try going {disfmarker} going the other direction from simpler task to more complicated tasks ,
Grad E: acoustic models {comment} were a lot more complex .
PhD B: or {disfmarker} ?
Grad E: n Not in that paper .
Professor C: That might be hard .
Grad E: Yeah , well , one of the big problems with that is {disfmarker} is often the simpler task isn't fully {disfmarker} doesn't have all the phones in it ,
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: and that {disfmarker} that makes it very hard .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: But I 've done the same thing . I 've been using Broadcast News nets for digits ,
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: like for the spr speech proxy thing that I did ? That 's what I did .
Professor C: Yeah , sure .
Grad E: So . It works .
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah , and they have {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} they have better adaptation than we had than that {disfmarker} that system ,
Grad E: Yep .
Professor C: so they {disfmarker} um ,
Grad E: You mean they have some .
Professor C: yeah , we should probably what would {disfmarker} actually what we should do , uh , I haven't said anything about this , but probably the five of us should pick out a paper or two that {disfmarker} that , uh , you know , got our interest , and we should go around the room at one of the Tuesday lunch meetings and say , you know , what {disfmarker} what was good about the conference ,
Grad E: Present . Yep . Do a trip report .
Professor C: yeah .
PhD D: Well , the summarization stuff was interesting , I mean , I don't know anything about that field , but for this proposal on meeting summarization , um , I mean , it 's sort of a far cry because they weren't working with meeting type data , but he got sort of an overview on some of the different approaches ,
Grad E: Right .
PhD B: Do you remember who the groups were that we 're doing ?
PhD D: so . Well there 're {disfmarker} this was the last day ,
Grad E: A lot of different ones .
Postdoc A: R I think {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .
PhD D: but , I mean , there 's {disfmarker} that 's a huge field and probably the groups there may not be representative of the field , I {disfmarker} I don't know exactly that everyone submits to this particular conference ,
PhD B: Was {disfmarker} were there folks from BBN presenting ?
PhD D: but yet there was , let 's see , this was on the last day , Mitre , BBN , and , um , Prager {disfmarker}
Grad E: Mitre , BBN , IBM . Uh ,
Postdoc A: Maryland .
PhD D: um , I wo it was {disfmarker}
Professor C: Columbia have anything ? No .
PhD D: no it was {disfmarker}
Grad E: Wasn't {disfmarker} Who {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who did the order one ?
PhD D: this was Wednesday morning . The sentence ordering one , was that Barselou , and these guys ?
Grad E: Ugh ! {comment} I 'm just so bad at that .
Postdoc A: Oh .
PhD D: Anyway , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} it 's in the program , I should have read it to remind myself , but that 's sort of useful and I think like when Mari and Katrin and Jeff are here it 'd be good to figure out some kinds of things that we can start doing maybe just on the transcripts cuz we already have {disfmarker}
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Yeah , we do have word transcripts .
PhD D: you know , yeah .
Grad E: So .
Postdoc A: Well , I like the idea that Adam had of {disfmarker} of , um , z maybe generating minutes based on some of these things that we have because it would be easy to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to do that just , you know , and {disfmarker} and
PhD D: Right .
Postdoc A: it has to be , though , someone from this group because of the technical nature of the thing .
Grad E: Someone who actually does take notes , um , {vocalsound} I 'm very bad at note - taking .
PhD D: But I think what 's interesting is there 's all these different evaluations , like {disfmarker} just , you know , how do you evaluate whether the summary is good or not ,
Grad E: I always write down the wrong things .
Postdoc A: I do take notes .
PhD D: and that 's what 's {disfmarker} was sort of interesting to me is that there 's different ways to do it ,
Grad E: A judge .
PhD D: and {disfmarker}
PhD B: Was SRA one of the groups talking about summarization , no ?
Grad E: Yep .
PhD D: Hm - umm . No .
Postdoc A: It was an interesting session . One of those w
Grad E: And as I said , I like the Microsoft talk on {pause} scaling issues in , uh , word sense disambiguation ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad E: that was interesting .
Professor C: Yeah , that was an interesting discussion ,
Grad E: The {disfmarker}
Professor C: uh , I
Grad E: It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it was the only one {disfmarker} It was the only one that had any sort of real disagreement about .
PhD D: The data issue comes up all the ti
Professor C: Well , I didn't have as much disagreement as I would have liked ,
Grad E: So .
Professor C: but I didn't wanna {disfmarker} I wouldn I didn't wanna get into it because , uh , you know , it was the application was one I didn't know anything about ,
Grad E: Yep .
Professor C: uh , it just would have been , you know , me getting up to be argumentative , but {disfmarker} but , uh , I mean , the missing thi so {disfmarker} so what they were saying {disfmarker} it 's one of these things {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} you know , all you need is more data , sort of {disfmarker} But I mea i wh it {disfmarker} @ @ that 's {disfmarker} that 's dissing it , uh , improperly , I mean , it was a nice study . Uh , they were doing this {disfmarker} it wasn't word - sense disambiguation , it was {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker}
Grad E: Well , it sort of was .
Professor C: was it w was it word - sense ? Yes .
Grad E: But it was {disfmarker} it was a very simple case of " to " versus " too " versus " two " and " there " , " their " , " they 're " {disfmarker}
PhD D: And there and their and {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah , yeah . OK .
PhD D: and that you could do better with more data , I mean , that 's clearly statistically {disfmarker}
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: And so , what they did was they had these different kinds of learning machines , and they had different amounts of data , and so they did like , you know , eight different methods that everybody , you know , uh , argues about {disfmarker} about , " Oh my {disfmarker} my kind of learning machine is better than your kind of learning machine . " And , uh , they were {disfmarker} started off with a million words that they used , which was evidently a number that a lot of people doing that particular kind of task had been using . So they went up , being Microsoft , they went up to a billion . And then they had this log scale showing a {disfmarker} you know , and {disfmarker} and naturally everything gets {disfmarker}
Grad E: Them being beep , {comment} they went off to a billion .
Professor C: they {disfmarker} well , it 's a big company , I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't mean it as a ne anything negative ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: but i i i
PhD D: You mean the bigger the company the more words they use for training ?
Grad E: Well , I think the reason they can do that , is that they assumed that text that they get off the web , like from Wall Street Journal , is correct , and edit it .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: So that 's what they used as training data . It 's just saying if it 's in this corpus it 's correct .
Professor C: OK . But , I mean , yes . Of course there was the kind of effect that , you know , one would expect that {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} that you got better and better performance with more and more data . Um , but the {disfmarker} the real point was that the {disfmarker} the different learning machines are sort of all over the place , and {disfmarker} and by {disfmarker} by going up significantly in data you can have much bigger effect then by switching learning machines and furthermore which learning machine was on top kind of depended on where you were in this picture , so ,
PhD B: This was my concern about the recognizer in Aurora .
Professor C: uh , That {disfmarker}
PhD B: That the differences we 're seeing in the front - end is b
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: Are irrelevant .
PhD B: are irrelevant once you get a real recognizer at the back - end .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: If you add more data ? Or {disfmarker}
PhD B: You know ?
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: Huh .
Professor C: Yeah , could well be . So {disfmarker} so , I mean , that was {disfmarker} that was kind of , you know , it 's a good point , but the problem I had with it was that the implications out of this was that , uh , the kind of choices you make about learning machines were therefore irrelevant which is not at {disfmarker} n t as for as I know in {disfmarker} in tasks I 'm more familiar with @ @ is not at all true . What i what is {disfmarker} is true is that different learning machines have different properties , and you wanna know what those properties are . And someone else sort of implied that well we s you know , a all the study of learning machine we still don't know what those properties are . We don't know them perfectly , but we know that some kinds use more memory and {disfmarker} and some other kinds use more computation and some are {disfmarker} are hav have limited kind of discrimination , but are just easy to use , and others are {disfmarker}
PhD B: But doesn't their conclusion just sort of {disfmarker} you could have guessed that before they even started ? Because if you assume that these learning things get better and better and better ,
Professor C: You would guess {disfmarker}
PhD B: then as you approach {disfmarker} there 's a point where you can't get any better , right ? You get everything right .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: It 's just no {disfmarker}
Grad E: But {disfmarker}
PhD B: So they 're all approaching .
Grad E: No , but there was still a spread . They weren't all up They weren't converging .
PhD B: But what I 'm saying is that th they have to , as they all get better , they have to get closer together .
Professor C: It w
Grad E: They were all still spread . But they {disfmarker} Right , right . Sure . But they hadn't even come close to that point . All the tasks were still improving when they hit a billion .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: But they 're all going the same way , right ? So you have to get closer .
Professor C: Eventually . O one would
Grad E: But they didn't get closer .
PhD B: Oh they didn't ?
Professor C: Well {disfmarker}
Grad E: They just switched position .
Professor C: well that 's getting cl I mean , yeah , the spread was still pretty wide that 's th that 's true ,
Grad E: Yep .
Professor C: but {disfmarker} but , uh , I think it would be irntu intu intuition that this would be the case , but , uh , to really see it and to have the intuition is quite different , I mean , I think somebody w w let 's see who was talking about earlier that the effect of having a lot more data is quite different in Switchboard than it is in {disfmarker} in Broadcast News ,
PhD D: Well it 's different for different tasks .
Grad E: Yeah . It was Liz . Yeah .
Professor C: yeah .
PhD D: So it depends a lot on whether , you know , it {disfmarker} disambiguation is exactly the case where more data is better , right ? You 're {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you can assume similar distributions ,
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: but if you wanted to do disambiguation on a different type of , uh , test data then your training data , then that extra data wouldn't generalize ,
Grad E: Right .
PhD D: so .
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: But , I think one of their p They {disfmarker} they had a couple points . w {comment} Uh , I think one of them was that " Well , maybe simpler algorithms and more data are {disfmarker} is better " . Less memory , faster operation , simpler . Right ? Because their simplest , most brain - dead algorithm did pretty darn well
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: when you got {disfmarker} gave it a lot more data . And then also they were saying , " Well , m You have access to a lot more data . Why are you sticking with a million words ? " I mean , their point was that this million - word corpus that everyone uses is apparently ten or fifteen years old . And everyone is still using it , so .
Professor C: Yeah . But anyway , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's just the {disfmarker} the i it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not really the conclusion they came to so much , as the conclusion that some of the , uh , uh , commenters in the crowd {vocalsound} came up with
Grad E: But we could talk about this stuff , I think this would be fun to do . Right .
Professor C: that , uh , you know , this therefore is further evidence that , you know , more data is really all you should care about , and that I thought was just kind of going too far the other way ,
Grad E: Machine - learning .
Professor C: and {disfmarker} and the {disfmarker} the , uh , one {disfmarker} one person ga g g got up and made a {disfmarker} a brief defense , uh , but it was a different kind of grounds , it was that {disfmarker} that , uh , i w the reason people were not using so much data before was not because they were stupid or didn't realize data was important , but in fact th they didn't have it available . Um , but the other point to make a again is that , uh , machine learning still does matter , but it {disfmarker} it matters more in some situations than in others , and it {disfmarker} and also there 's {disfmarker} there 's not just mattering or not mattering , but there 's mattering in different ways . I mean , you might be in some situation where you care how much memory you 're using , or you care , you know , what recall time is ,
Grad E: Right .
Professor C: or you care , you know , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}
Grad E: Or you only have a million words {pause} for your {disfmarker} some new task .
Professor C: Yeah , or {disfmarker} or , uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: Or done another language , or {disfmarker} I mean , you {disfmarker} so there 's papers on portability and rapid prototyping and blah - blah - blah ,
Grad E: Yep .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: Right .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: and then there 's people saying , " Oh , just add more data . "
Professor C: And there 's cost !
PhD D: So , these are like two different religions , basically .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Cost .
Professor C: There 's just plain cost ,
Grad E: Yeah . That 's a big one .
Professor C: you know , so {disfmarker} so these , I mean th the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the speech side , the thing that @ @ always occurs to me is that if you {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} one person has a system that requires ten thousand hours to train on , and the other only requires a hundred , and they both do about the same because the hundred hour one was smarter , that 's {disfmarker} that 's gonna be better . because people , I mean , there isn't gonna be just one system that people train on
Grad E: Yep .
Professor C: and then that 's it for the r for all of time . I mean , people are gonna be doing other different things , and so it {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these things matters {disfmarker} matter .
Postdoc A: Yeah , that 's it .
Grad E: Yeah , so that 's one of the slides they put up .
Postdoc A: So , I mean , this was a very provocative slide . She put this up , and it was like this is {disfmarker} this p people kept saying , " Can I see that slide again ? "
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah ,
Postdoc A: and then they 'd make a comment , and one person said , well - known person said , um , you know , " Before you dismiss forty - five years including my work {disfmarker} "
PhD D: yeah .
Grad E: Forty - five years of research .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad G: Yeah .
PhD D: But th you know , the same thing has happened in computational linguistics , right ? You look at the ACL papers coming out , and now there 's sort of a turn back towards , OK we 've learned statistic {disfmarker} you know , we 're basically getting what we expect out of some statistical methods , and , you know , the there 's arguments on both sides ,
Grad E: Yep .
PhD D: so {disfmarker}
Grad E: I think the matters is the thing that {disfmarker} that was misleading .
Postdoc A: That was very offending , very offending .
PhD D: Yeah , yeah .
Grad E: Is that {disfmarker} all {disfmarker} all of them are based on all the others , right ? Just , you {disfmarker} you can't say {disfmarker}
PhD B: Maybe they should have said " focus " or something .
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: Yeah . I mean , so . {disfmarker} And I 'm saying the same thing happened with speech recognition , right ? For a long time people were hand - c coding linguistic rules and then they discovered machine - learning worked better . And now they 're throwing more and more data and worrying {disfmarker} perhaps worrying less and less about , uh , the exact details of the algorithms .
PhD D: And {disfmarker} and then you hit this {disfmarker}
Grad E: Except when they have a Eurospeech paper .
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: Anyway .
Professor C: Anyway , tea is {disfmarker} tea is , uh , starting .
Grad E: Shall we read some digits ? Are we gonna do one at a time ? Or should we read them all agai at once again .
Professor C: Let 's do it all at once .
Postdoc A: Yeah , that 's good .
Professor C: We {disfmarker} @ @ {disfmarker} let 's try that again .
PhD D: Yes ! So , and maybe we won't laugh this time also .
Grad E: OK . So remember to read the transcript number so that , uh , everyone knows that {disfmarker} what it is . And ready ?
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Grad E: Three , two , one .
Professor C: Boy , is that ever efficient .
Grad E: Yep . That 's really fast .
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah .
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Professor C: OK . So uh , he 's not here ,
PhD D: So .
Professor C: so you get to {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah , I will try to explain the thing that I did this {disfmarker} this week {disfmarker} during this week .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: Well eh you know that I work {disfmarker} I begin to work with a new feature to detect voice - unvoice .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: What I trying two MLP to {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker} with this new feature and the fifteen feature uh from the eh bus base system
PhD E: The {disfmarker} the mel cepstrum ?
PhD D: No , satly the mes the Mel Cepstrum , the new base system {disfmarker} the new base system .
PhD E: Oh the {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah , we {disfmarker}
PhD E: OK , the Aurora system .
PhD D: yeah the Aurora system with the new filter , VAD or something like that .
PhD E: OK .
PhD D: And I 'm trying two MLP , one one that only have t three output , voice , unvoice , and silence ,
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: and other one that have fifty - six output . The probabilities of the allophone . And I tried to do some experiment of recognition with that and only have result with {disfmarker} with the MLP with the three output . And I put together the fifteen features and the three MLP output . And , well , the result are li a little bit better , but more or less similar .
Professor C: Uh , I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm slightly confused .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor C: What {disfmarker} what feeds the uh {disfmarker} the three - output net ?
PhD D: Voice , unvoice , and si
Professor C: No no , what feeds it ? What features does it see ?
PhD D: The feature {disfmarker} the input ? The inputs are the fifteen {disfmarker} the fifteen uh bases feature .
Professor C: Uh - huh .
PhD D: the {disfmarker} with the new code . And the other three features are R , the variance of the difference between the two spectrum ,
Professor C: Uh - huh .
PhD D: the variance of the auto - correlation function , except the {disfmarker} the first point , because half the height value is R - zero
Professor C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD D: and also R - zero , the first coefficient of the auto - correlation function . That is like the energy with these three feature ,
Professor C: Right .
PhD D: also these three feature .
Professor C: You wouldn't do like R - one over R - zero or something like that ? I mean usually for voiced - unvoiced you 'd do {disfmarker} yeah , you 'd do something {disfmarker} you 'd do energy
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: but then you have something like spectral slope , which is you get like R - one ov over R - zero or something like that .
PhD D: Uh yeah .
PhD E: What are the R 's ?
Professor C: R correlations .
PhD E: I 'm sorry I missed it .
PhD D: No , R c No .
PhD E: Oh .
PhD D: Auto - correlation ? Yes , yes , the variance of the auto - correlation function that uses that
Professor C: Ye - Well that 's the variance , but if you just say " what is {disfmarker} " I mean , to first order , um yeah one of the differences between voiced , unvoiced and silence is energy . Another one is {disfmarker} but the other one is the spectral shape .
PhD D: Yeah , I I 'll {disfmarker} The spectral shape ,
Professor C: Yeah , and so R - one over R - zero is what you typically use for that .
PhD D: yeah . No , I don't use that {disfmarker} I can't use {disfmarker}
Professor C: No , I 'm saying that 's what people us typically use .
PhD D: Mmm .
Professor C: See , because it {disfmarker} because this is {disfmarker} this is just like a single number to tell you um " does the spectrum look like that or does it look like that " .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Oh . R {disfmarker} R {disfmarker} R - zero .
Professor C: Right ?
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's um {disfmarker} if it 's low energy uh but the {disfmarker} but the spectrum looks like that or like that , it 's probably silence .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Uh but if it 's low energy and the spectrum looks like that , it 's probably unvoiced .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: So if you just {disfmarker} if you just had to pick two features to determine voiced - unvoiced , you 'd pick something about the spectrum like uh R - one over R - zero , um and R - zero
PhD D: Mm - hmm , OK .
Professor C: or i i you know you 'd have some other energy measure and like in the old days people did like uh zero crossing counts .
PhD D: Yeah , yeah .
Professor C: Right . S S
PhD D: Well , I can also th use this .
Professor C: Yeah . Um ,
PhD D: Bec - because the result are a little bit better but we have in a point that everything is more or less the similar {disfmarker} more or less similar .
Professor C: Yeah . But um
PhD D: It 's not quite better .
Professor C: Right , but it seemed to me that what you were what you were getting at before was that there is something about the difference between the original signal or the original FFT and with the filter which is what {disfmarker} and the variance was one take uh on it .
PhD D: Yeah , I used this too .
Professor C: Right . But it {disfmarker} it could be something else . Suppose you didn't have anything like that . Then in that case , if you have two nets , Alright , and this one has three outputs , and this one has f
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: whatever , fifty - six , or something ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: if you were to sum up the probabilities for the voiced and for the unvoiced and for the silence here , we 've found in the past you 'll do better at voiced - unvoiced - silence than you do with this one . So just having the three output thing doesn't {disfmarker} doesn't really buy you anything . The issue is what you feed it .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah , I have {disfmarker} yeah .
Professor C: So uh
PhD D: No {disfmarker}
PhD E: So you 're saying take the features that go into the voiced - unvoiced - silence net and feed those into the other one , as additional inputs , rather than having a separate {disfmarker}
Professor C: w W well that 's another way .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: That wasn't what I was saying but yeah that 's certainly another thing to do . No I was just trying to say if you b if you bring this into the picture over this , what more does it buy you ?
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor C: And what I was saying is that the only thing I think that it buys you is um based on whether you feed it something different . And something different in some fundamental way . And so the kind of thing that {disfmarker} that she was talking about before , was looking at something uh ab um {disfmarker} something uh about the difference between the {disfmarker} the uh um log FFT uh log power uh and the log magnitude uh F F - spectrum uh and the um uh filter bank .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: And so the filter bank is chosen in fact to sort of integrate out the effects of pitch and she 's saying you know trying {disfmarker} So the particular measure that she chose was the variance of this m of this difference , but that might not be the right number .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Maybe .
Professor C: Right ? I mean maybe there 's something about the variance that 's {disfmarker} that 's not enough or maybe there 's something else that {disfmarker} that one could use , but I think that , for me , the thing that {disfmarker} that struck me was that uh you wanna get something back here , so here 's {disfmarker} here 's an idea . uh What about it you skip all the {disfmarker} all the really clever things , and just fed the log magnitude spectrum into this ?
PhD D: Ah {disfmarker} I 'm sorry .
Professor C: This is f You have the log magnitude spectrum , and you were looking at that and the difference between the filter bank and {disfmarker} and c c computing the variance .
PhD D: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: That 's a clever thing to do .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: What if you stopped being clever ? And you just took this thing in here because it 's a neural net and neural nets are wonderful
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: and figure out what they can {disfmarker} what they most need from things , and I mean that 's what they 're good at .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: So I mean you 're {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're trying to be clever and say what 's the statistic that should {disfmarker} we should get about this difference but uh in fact , you know maybe just feeding this in or {disfmarker} or feeding both of them in
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor C: you know , another way , saying let it figure out what 's the {disfmarker} what is the interaction , especially if you do this over multiple frames ?
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Then you have this over time , and {disfmarker} and both kinds of measures and uh you might get uh something better .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Um .
PhD E: So {disfmarker} so don't uh {disfmarker} don't do the division , but let the net have everything .
Professor C: That 's another thing you could do yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: Um . I mean , it seems to me , if you have exactly the right thing then it 's better to do it without the net because otherwise you 're asking the net to learn this {disfmarker} you know , say if you wanted to learn how to do multiplication .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: I mean you could feed it a bunch of s you could feed two numbers that you wanted to multiply into a net and have a bunch of nonlinearities in the middle and train it to get the product of the output and it would work . But , it 's kind of crazy , cuz we know how to multiply and you {disfmarker} you 'd be you know much lower error usually {vocalsound} if you just multiplied it out . But suppose you don't really know what the right thing is . And that 's what these sort of dumb machine learning methods are good at . So . Um . Anyway . It 's just a thought .
PhD E: How long does it take , Carmen , to train up one of these nets ?
PhD D: Oh , not too much .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: Mmm , one day or less .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor C: Yeah , it 's probably worth it .
Grad A: What are {disfmarker} what are your f uh frame error rates for {disfmarker} for this ?
PhD D: Eh fifty - f six uh no , the frame error rate ?
Grad A: O
PhD D: Fifty - six I think .
Professor C: Is that {disfmarker} maybe that 's accuracy ?
PhD D: Percent .
Grad A: Fif - fifty - six percent accurate for v voice - unvoice
PhD D: The accuracy . Mm - hmm . No for , yes f I don't remember for voice - unvoice ,
Grad A: Oh , OK .
PhD D: maybe for the other one .
Grad A: OK .
Professor C: Yeah , voiced - unvoiced hopefully would be a lot better .
PhD D: for voiced . I don't reme
Grad A: Should be in nineties somewhere .
PhD D: Better . Maybe for voice - unvoice .
Grad A: Right .
PhD D: This is for the other one . I should {disfmarker} I can't show that .
Grad A: OK .
PhD D: But I think that fifty - five was for the {disfmarker} when the output are the fifty - six phone .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: That I look in the {disfmarker} with the other {disfmarker} nnn the other MLP that we have are more or less the same number . Silence will be better but more or less the same .
Professor C: I think at the frame level for fifty - six that was the kind of number we were getting for {disfmarker} for uh um reduced band width uh stuff .
PhD D: I think that {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that for the other one , for the three output , is sixty sixty - two , sixty three more or less .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: That 's all ?
PhD D: It 's {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor C: That 's pretty bad .
PhD D: Yeah , because it 's noise also .
Grad A: Oh yeah .
Professor C: Aha !
PhD D: And we have
Professor C: Aha ! Yeah . Yeah . OK .
PhD D: I know .
Professor C: But even i in {disfmarker} Oh yeah , in training . Still , Uh . Well actually , so this is a test that you should do then . Um , if you 're getting fifty - six percent over here , uh that 's in noise also , right ?
PhD D: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Professor C: Oh OK . If you 're getting fifty - six here , try adding together the probabilities of all of the voiced phones here and all of the unvoiced phones
PhD D: will be {disfmarker}
Professor C: and see what you get then .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: I bet you get better than sixty - three .
PhD D: Well I don't know , but {disfmarker} I th I {disfmarker} I think that we {disfmarker} I have the result more or less . Maybe . I don't know . I don't {disfmarker} I 'm not sure but I remember @ @ that I can't show that .
Professor C: OK , but that 's a {disfmarker} That is a {disfmarker} a good check point , you should do that anyway ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: OK ? Given this {disfmarker} this uh regular old net that 's just for choosing for other purposes , uh add up the probabilities of the different subclasses and see {disfmarker} see how well you do . Uh and that {disfmarker} you know anything that you do over here should be at least as good as that .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: OK .
PhD D: I will do that . But {disfmarker}
PhD E: The targets for the neural net , uh , they come from forced alignments ?
PhD D: Uh , {comment} no .
Grad A: TIMIT canonical ma mappings .
PhD D: TIMIT .
Professor C: Oh . So , this is trained on TIMIT .
PhD E: Ah ! OK .
Grad A: Yeah , noisy TIMIT .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: OK .
PhD D: Yeah this for TIMIT .
Professor C: But noisy TIMIT ?
Grad A: Right .
PhD D: Noisy TIMIT . We have noisy TIMIT with the noise of the {disfmarker} the TI - digits . And now we have another noisy TIMIT also with the noise of uh Italian database .
Professor C: I see . Yeah . Well there 's gonna be {disfmarker} it looks like there 's gonna be a noisy uh {disfmarker} some large vocabulary noisy stuff too . Somebody 's preparing .
PhD E: Really ?
Professor C: Yeah . I forget what it 'll be , resource management , Wall Street Journal , something . Some {disfmarker} some read task actually , that they 're {disfmarker} preparing .
Grad A: Hmm !
PhD E: For what {disfmarker} For Aurora ?
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD E: Oh !
Professor C: Yeah , so the uh {disfmarker} Uh , the issue is whether people make a decision now based on what they 've already seen , or they make it later . And one of the arguments for making it later is let 's make sure that whatever techniques that we 're using work for something more than {disfmarker} than connected digits .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor C: So .
PhD E: When are they planning {disfmarker} When would they do that ?
Professor C: Mmm , I think late {disfmarker} uh I think in the summer sometime .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor C: So . OK , thanks .
PhD D: This is the work that I did during this date
Professor C: Uh - huh .
PhD D: and also mmm I {disfmarker} H Hynek last week say that if I have time I can to begin to {disfmarker} to study well seriously the France Telecom proposal
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: to look at the code and something like that to know exactly what they are doing because maybe that we can have some ideas
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: but not only to read the proposal . Look insi look i carefully what they are doing with the program @ @ and I begin to {disfmarker} to work also in that . But the first thing that I don't understand is that they are using R - the uh log energy that this quite {disfmarker} I don't know why they have some constant in the expression of the lower energy . I don't know what that means .
PhD E: They have a constant in there , you said ?
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: Oh , at the front it says uh " log energy is equal to the rounded version of sixteen over the log of two "
PhD D: This {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor C: Uh . uh times the {disfmarker}
PhD D: Then maybe I can understand .
Professor C: Well , this is natural log , and maybe it has something to do with the fact that this is {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I have no idea .
PhD E: Is that some kind of base conversion , or {disfmarker} ?
Professor C: Yeah , that 's what I was thinking , but {disfmarker} but um , then there 's the sixty - four , Uh , {vocalsound} I don't know .
PhD D: Because maybe they 're {disfmarker} the threshold that they are using on the basis of this value {disfmarker}
PhD E: Experimental results .
Grad A: Mc - McDonald 's constant .
PhD D: I don't know exactly , because well th I thought maybe they have a meaning . But I don't know what is the meaning of take exactly this value .
Professor C: Yeah , it 's pretty funny looking .
PhD E: So they 're taking the number inside the log and raising it to sixteen over log base two .
Professor C: I don't know . Yeah , I {disfmarker} um Right . Sixteen over {comment} two .
PhD E: Does it have to do with those sixty - fours , or {disfmarker} ?
Professor C: Um . If we ignore the sixteen , the natural log of t one over the natural log of two times the natu I don't know . Well , maybe somebody 'll think of something ,
PhD E:
Professor C: but this is uh {disfmarker} It may just be that they {disfmarker} they want to have {disfmarker} for very small energies , they want to have some kind of a {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah , the e The effect I don't {disfmarker} @ @ I can understand the effect of this , no ? because it 's to {disfmarker} to do something like that .
Professor C: Well , it says , since you 're taking a natural log , it says that when {disfmarker} when you get down to essentially zero energy , this is gonna be the natural log of one , which is zero .
PhD D: No ? Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So it 'll go down to uh to {nonvocalsound} the natural log being {disfmarker} So the lowest value for this would be zero . So y you 're restricted to being positive . And this sort of smooths it for very small energies . Uh , why they chose sixty - four and something else , that was probably just experimental . And the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the constant in front of it , I have no idea .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: um
PhD D: Well . I {disfmarker} I will look to try if I move this parameter in their code what happens , maybe everything is {disfmarker} Maybe they tres hole are on basis of this .
Professor C: uh {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they {disfmarker} they probably have some fi particular s fixed point arithmetic that they 're using ,
PhD D: I don't know .
Professor C: and then it just {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah , I was just gonna say maybe it has something to do with hardware ,
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD E: something they were doing .
Professor C: Yeah , I mean that {disfmarker} they 're s probably working with fixed point or integer or something . I think you 're supposed to on this stuff anyway , and {disfmarker} and so maybe that puts it in the right realm somewhere .
PhD E: Well it just , yeah , puts it in the right range , or {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah . I think , given at the level you 're doing things in floating point on the computer , I don't think it matters , would be my guess ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: but .
PhD D: I {disfmarker} this more or less anything
Professor C: Yeah . OK , and wh when did Stephane take off ? He took off {disfmarker}
PhD D: I think that Stephane will arrive today or tomorrow .
Professor C: Oh , he was gone these first few days , and then he 's here for a couple days before he goes to Salt Lake City .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: OK .
PhD D: He 's {disfmarker} I think that he is in Las Vegas or something like that .
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah . So he 's {disfmarker} he 's going to ICASSP which is good . I {disfmarker} I don't know if there are many people who are going to ICASSP
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: so {disfmarker} so I thought , make sure somebody go .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD E: Do {disfmarker} have {disfmarker} Have people sort of stopped going to ICASSP in recent years ?
Professor C: Um , people are less consistent about going to ICASSP and I think it 's still {disfmarker} it 's still a reasonable forum for students to {disfmarker} to present things . Uh , it 's {disfmarker} I think for engineering students of any kind , I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's if you haven't been there much , it 's good to go to , uh to get a feel for things , a range of things , not just speech . Uh . But I think for {disfmarker} for sort of dyed - in - the - wool speech people , um I think that ICSLP and Eurospeech are much more targeted .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Uh . And then there 's these other meetings , like HLT and {disfmarker} and uh ASRU {disfmarker}
PhD E:
Professor C: so there 's {disfmarker} there 's actually plenty of meetings that are really relevant to {disfmarker} to uh computational uh speech processing of one sort or another .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Um . So . I mean , I mostly just ignored it because I was too busy and {vocalsound} didn't get to it . So uh Wanna talk a little bit about what we were talking about this morning ?
Grad A: Oh ! um {pause} uh {pause} Yeah .
Professor C: Just briefly , or {pause} Or anything else ?
Grad A: So . I {disfmarker} I guess some of the progress , I {disfmarker} I 've been getting a {disfmarker} getting my committee members for the quals . And um so far I have Morgan and Hynek , {vocalsound} Mike Jordan , and I asked John Ohala and he agreed . Yeah . Yeah .
PhD E: Cool .
Grad A: So I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I just need to ask um Malek . One more . Um . Tsk . Then uh I talked a little bit about {vocalsound} um continuing with these dynamic ev um acoustic events , and um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} we 're {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're {vocalsound} thinking about a way to test the completeness of a {disfmarker} a set of um dynamic uh events . Uh , completeness in the {disfmarker} in the sense that {vocalsound} um if we {disfmarker} if we pick these X number of acoustic events , {vocalsound} do they provide sufficient coverage {vocalsound} for the phones that we 're trying to recognize {vocalsound} or {disfmarker} or the f the words that we 're gonna try to recognize later on . And so Morgan and I were uh discussing {vocalsound} um s uh s a form of a cheating experiment {vocalsound} where we get {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um we have uh {vocalsound} um a chosen set of features , or acoustic events , and we train up a hybrid {vocalsound} um system to do phone recognition on TIMIT . So i i the idea is if we get good phone recognition results , {vocalsound} using um these set of acoustic events , {vocalsound} then {vocalsound} um that {disfmarker} that says that these acoustic events are g sufficient to cover {vocalsound} a set of phones , at least found in TIMIT . Um so i it would be a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a measure of " are we on the right track with {disfmarker} with the {disfmarker} the choices of our acoustic events " . Um , {vocalsound} So that 's going on . And {vocalsound} also , just uh working on my {vocalsound} uh final project for Jordan 's class , uh which is {disfmarker}
Professor C: Actually , let me {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: Hold that thought .
Grad A: OK , sure .
Professor C: Let me back up while we 're still on it . The {disfmarker} the other thing I was suggesting , though , is that given that you 're talking about binary features , uh , maybe the first thing to do is just to count and uh count co - occurrences and get probabilities for a discrete HMM cuz that 'd be pretty simple because it 's just {disfmarker} Say , if you had ten {disfmarker} ten events , uh that you were counting , uh each frame would only have a thousand possible values for these ten bits , and uh so you could make a table that would {disfmarker} say , if you had thirty - nine phone categories , that would be a thousand by thirty - nine , and just count the co - occurrences and divide them by the {disfmarker} the uh {disfmarker} uh uh occ uh count the co - occurrences between the event and the phone and divide them by the number of occurrences of the phone , and that would give you the likelihood of the {disfmarker} of the event given the phone . And um then just use that in a very simple HMM and uh you could uh do phone recognition then and uh wouldn't have any of the issues of the uh training of the net or {disfmarker} I mean , it 'd be on the simple side , but
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: uh um you know , if {disfmarker} uh uh the example I was giving was that if {disfmarker} if you had um onset of voicing and {disfmarker} and end of voicing as being two kinds of events , then if you had those a all marked correctly , and you counted co - occurrences , you should get it completely right .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So . um {disfmarker} But you 'd get all the other distinctions , you know , randomly wrong . I mean there 'd be nothing to tell you that . So um {vocalsound} uh If you just do this by counting , then you should be able to find out in a pretty straightforward way whether you have a sufficient uh set of events to {disfmarker} to do the kind of level of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of uh classification of phones that you 'd like . So that was {disfmarker} that was the idea . And then the other thing that we were discussing was {disfmarker} was um {vocalsound} OK , how do you get the {disfmarker} your training data .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Cuz uh the {vocalsound} Switchboard transcription project uh uh you know was half a dozen people , or so working off and on over a couple years , and uh similar {disfmarker} {vocalsound} similar amount of data {vocalsound} to what you 're talking about with TIMIT training . So , it seems to me that the only reasonable starting point is uh to automatically translate the uh current TIMIT markings into the markings you want . And uh {vocalsound} it won't have the kind of characteristic that you 'd like , of catching funny kind of things that maybe aren't there from these automatic markings ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: but {disfmarker} but uh it 's uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: It 's probably a good place to start .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah and a short {disfmarker} short amount of time , just to {disfmarker} again , just to see if that information is sufficient to uh determine the phones .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Hmm .
Professor C: So .
PhD E: Yeah , you could even then {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to get an idea about how different it is , you could maybe take some subset and you know , go through a few sentences , mark them by hand and then see how different it is from you know , the canonical ones ,
Professor C: Right .
PhD E: just to get an idea {disfmarker} a rough idea of h if it really even makes a difference .
Professor C: You can get a little feeling for it that way , yeah that is probably right .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: I mean uh my {disfmarker} my guess would be that this is {disfmarker} since TIMIT 's read speech that this would be less of a big deal ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: if you went and looked at spontaneous speech it 'd be more {disfmarker} more of one .
PhD E: Right . Right .
Professor C: And the other thing would be , say , if you had these ten events , you 'd wanna see , well what if you took two events or four events or ten events or t and you know , and {disfmarker} and hopefully there should be some point at which {vocalsound} having more information doesn't tell you really all that much more about what the phones are .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . You could define other events as being sequences of these events too .
Professor C: Uh , you could , but the thing is , what he 's talking about here is a uh {disfmarker} a translation to a per - frame feature vector , so there 's no sequence in that , I think . I think it 's just a {disfmarker}
PhD E: Unless you did like a second pass over it or something after you 've got your {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah , but we 're just talking about something simple here , yeah , to see if {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah , yeah . Yeah . I 'm adding complexity .
Professor C: Yeah . Just {disfmarker} You know . The idea is with a {disfmarker} with a very simple statistical structure , could you {disfmarker} could you uh at least verify that you 've chosen features that {vocalsound} are sufficient .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: OK , and you were saying something {disfmarker} starting to say something else about your {disfmarker} your class project , or {disfmarker} ?
Grad A: Oh . Yeah th Um .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad A: So for my class project I 'm {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I 'm tinkering with uh support vector machines ? something that we learned in class , and uh um basically just another method for doing classification . And so I 'm gonna apply that to {vocalsound} um compare it with the results by um King and Taylor who did {vocalsound} um these um using recurrent neural nets , they recognized {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} a set of phonological features um and made a mapping from the MFCC 's to these phonological features , so I 'm gonna {vocalsound} do a similar thing with {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with support vector machines and see if {disfmarker}
PhD E: So what 's the advantage of support vector machines ? What {disfmarker}
Grad A: Um . So , support vector machines are {disfmarker} are good with dealing with a less amount of data
PhD E: Hmm .
Grad A: and um so if you {disfmarker} if you give it less data it still does a reasonable job {vocalsound} in learning the {disfmarker} the patterns .
PhD E: Hmm .
Grad A: Um and {vocalsound} um
Professor C: I guess it {disfmarker} yeah , they 're sort of succinct , and {disfmarker} and they {vocalsound} uh
Grad A: Yeah .
PhD E: Does there some kind of a distance metric that they use or how do they {disfmarker} for cla what do they do for classification ?
Grad A: Um . Right . So , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the simple idea behind a support vector machine is {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} you have {disfmarker} you have this feature space , right ? and then it finds the optimal separating plane , um between these two different um classes ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad A: and um {vocalsound} and so {vocalsound} um , what it {disfmarker} i at the end of the day , what it actually does is {vocalsound} it picks {vocalsound} those examples of the features that are closest to the separating boundary , and remembers those
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and uses them to recreate the boundary for the test set . So , given these {vocalsound} um these features , or {disfmarker} or these {disfmarker} these examples , {pause} um , {pause} critical examples , {vocalsound} which they call support f support vectors , {vocalsound} then um {vocalsound} given a new example , {vocalsound} if the new example falls {vocalsound} um away from the boundary in one direction then it 's classified as being a part of this particular class
PhD E: Oh .
Grad A: and otherwise it 's the other class .
PhD E: So why save the examples ? Why not just save what the boundary itself is ?
Grad A: Mm - hmm . Um . Hmm . Let 's see . Uh . Yeah , that 's a good question . I {disfmarker} yeah .
Professor C: That 's another way of doing it . Right ? So {disfmarker} so it {disfmarker} I mean I {disfmarker} I guess it 's {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mmm . Sort of an equivalent .
Professor C: You know , it {disfmarker} it goes back to nearest - neighbor {vocalsound} sort of thing ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: right ? Um , i i if {disfmarker} is it eh w When is nearest - neighbor good ? Well , nearest - neighbor good {disfmarker} is good if you have lots and lots of examples . Um but of course if you have lots and lots of examples , then it can take a while to {disfmarker} to use nearest - neighbor . There 's lots of look ups . So a long time ago people talked about things where you would have uh a condensed nearest - neighbor , where you would {disfmarker} you would {disfmarker} you would pick out uh some representative examples which would uh be sufficient to represent {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to correctly classify everything that came in .
PhD E: Oh . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: I {disfmarker} I think s I think support vector stuff sort of goes back to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to that kind of thing . Um .
PhD E: I see . So rather than doing nearest neighbor where you compare to every single one , you just pick a few critical ones , and {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor C: And th the You know , um neural net approach uh or Gaussian mixtures for that matter are sort of {disfmarker} fairly brute force kinds of things , where you sort of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you predefine that there is this big bunch of parameters and then you {disfmarker} you place them as you best can to define the boundaries , and in fact , as you know , {vocalsound} these things do take a lot of parameters and {disfmarker} and uh {vocalsound} if you have uh only a modest amount of data , you have trouble {vocalsound} uh learning them . Um , so I {disfmarker} I guess the idea to this is that it {disfmarker} it is reputed to uh be somewhat better in that regard .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Right . I it can be a {disfmarker} a reduced um {vocalsound} parameterization of {disfmarker} of the {disfmarker} the model by just keeping {vocalsound} certain selected examples .
PhD E: Hmm .
Grad A: Yeah . So .
Professor C: But I don't know if people have done sort of careful comparisons of this on large tasks or anything . Maybe {disfmarker} maybe they have . I don't know .
Grad A: Yeah , I don't know either .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad B: S do you get some kind of number between zero and one at the output ?
Grad A: Actually you don't get a {disfmarker} you don't get a nice number between zero and one . You get {disfmarker} you get either a zero or a one . Um , uh there are {disfmarker} there are pap Well , basically , it 's {disfmarker} it 's um {vocalsound} you {disfmarker} you get a distance measure at the end of the day , and then that distance measure is {disfmarker} is um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} is translated to a zero or one . Um .
Professor C: But that 's looking at it for {disfmarker} for classification {disfmarker} for binary classification ,
Grad A: That 's for classification , right .
Professor C: right ?
PhD E: And you get that for each class , you get a zero or a one .
Grad A: Right .
Professor C: But you have the distances to work with .
Grad A: You have the distances to work with ,
Professor C: Cuz actually Mississippi State people did use support vector machines for uh uh speech recognition and they were using it to estimate probabilities .
Grad A: yeah . Yeah . Yeah , they {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they had a {disfmarker} had a way to translate the distances into {disfmarker} into probabilities with the {disfmarker} with the simple {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} uh sigmoidal function .
Professor C: Yeah , and d did they use sigmoid or a softmax type thing ?
Grad A: Um {pause} {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Professor C: And didn't they like exponentiate or something
Grad A: there 's some {disfmarker} there 's like one over one plus the exponential or something like that .
Professor C: and then {vocalsound} divide by the sum of them , or {disfmarker} ? Oh it {disfmarker} i Oh , so it is a sigmoidal .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: OK . Alright .
PhD E: Did the {disfmarker} did they get good results with that ?
Professor C: I mean , they 're OK , I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} I don't think they were earth {disfmarker} earth shattering , but I think that {vocalsound} uh this was a couple years ago ,
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor C: I remember them doing it at some meeting , and {disfmarker} and um I don't think people were very critical because it was interesting just to {disfmarker} to try this and you know , it was the first time they tried it , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} so the {disfmarker} you know , the numbers were not incredibly good
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor C: but there 's you know , it was th reasonable .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: I {disfmarker} I don't remember anymore . I don't even remember what the task was , it {comment} was Broadcast News , or {vocalsound} something . I don't know .
PhD E: Hmm .
Grad A: Right .
Grad B: Uh s So Barry , if you just have zero and ones , how are you doing the speech recognition ?
Grad A: Oh I 'm not do I 'm not planning on doing speech recognition with it . I 'm just doing {vocalsound} detection of phonological features .
Grad B: Oh . OK .
Grad A: So uh for example , {vocalsound} this {disfmarker} this uh feature set called the uh sound patterns of English {vocalsound} um is just a bunch of {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} binary valued features . Let 's say , is this voicing , or is this not voicing , is this {vocalsound} sonorants , not sonorants , and {vocalsound} stuff like that .
Grad B: OK .
Grad A: So .
PhD E: Did you find any more mistakes in their tables ?
Grad A: Oh ! Uh I haven't gone through the entire table , {pause} yet . Yeah , yesterday I brought Chuck {vocalsound} the table and I was like , " wait , this {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} Is the mapping from N to {disfmarker} to this phonological feature called um " coronal " , is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} should it be {disfmarker} shouldn't it be a one ? or should it {disfmarker} should it be you know coronal instead of not coronal as it was labelled in the paper ? " So I ha haven't hunted down all the {disfmarker} all the mistakes yet ,
Professor C: Uh - huh .
Grad A: but {disfmarker}
Professor C: But a as I was saying , people do get probabilities from these things ,
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: and {disfmarker} and uh we were just trying to remember how they do , but people have used it for speech recognition , and they have gotten probabilities . So they have some conversion from these distances to probabilities .
Grad B: OK .
Grad A: Right , yeah .
Professor C: There 's {disfmarker} you have {disfmarker} you have the paper , right ? The Mississippi State paper ?
Grad A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Yeah , if you 're interested y you could look ,
Grad B: And {disfmarker} OK . OK .
Grad A: Yeah , I can {disfmarker} I can show you {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Professor C: yeah .
Grad A: yeah , our {disfmarker}
PhD E: So in your {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the thing that you 're doing , uh you have a vector of ones and zeros for each phone ?
Grad A: Mm - hmm . Uh , is this the class project , or {disfmarker} ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: OK . um
PhD E: Is that what you 're {disfmarker}
Grad A: Right , {comment} Right , right f so for every phone there is {disfmarker} there is a um {disfmarker} a vector of ones and zeros {vocalsound} f uh corresponding to whether it exhibits a particular phonological feature or not .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . And so when you do your wh I 'm {disfmarker} what is the task for the class project ? To come up with the phones ?
Grad A: Um
PhD E: or to come up with these vectors to see how closely they match the phones ,
Grad A: Oh . Right , um to come up with a mapping from um MFCC 's or s some feature set , {vocalsound} um to {vocalsound} uh w to whether there 's existence of a particular phonological feature .
PhD E: or {disfmarker} ? Mm - hmm .
Grad A: And um yeah , basically it 's to learn a mapping {vocalsound} from {disfmarker} {vocalsound} from the MFCC 's to {vocalsound} uh phonological features . Is it {disfmarker} did that answer your question ?
PhD E: I think so .
Grad A: OK . C
PhD E: I guess {disfmarker} I mean , uh {disfmarker} I 'm not sure what you {disfmarker} what you 're {disfmarker} what you get out of your system . Do you get out a uh {disfmarker} a vector of these ones and zeros and then try to find the closest matching phoneme to that vector ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm . Oh .
PhD E: or {disfmarker} ?
Grad A: No , no . I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not planning to do any {disfmarker} any phoneme mapping yet . Just {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} it 's basically {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's really simple , basically a detection {vocalsound} of phonological features .
PhD E: Uh - huh .
Grad A: Yeah ,
PhD E: I see .
Grad A: and um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} cuz the uh {disfmarker} So King and {disfmarker} and Taylor {vocalsound} um did this with uh recurrent neural nets ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: and this i their {disfmarker} their idea was to first find {vocalsound} a mapping from MFCC 's to {vocalsound} uh phonological features
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: and then later on , once you have these {vocalsound} phonological features , {vocalsound} then uh map that to phones .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: So I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sort of reproducing phase one of their stuff .
PhD E: Mmm . So they had one recurrent net for each particular feature ?
Grad A: Right . Right . Right . Right .
PhD E: I see . I wo did they compare that {disfmarker} I mean , what if you just did phone recognition and did the reverse lookup .
Grad A: Uh .
PhD E: So you recognize a phone and which ever phone was recognized , you spit out it 's vector of ones and zeros .
Grad A: Mm - hmm . Uh .
Professor C: I expect you could do that .
PhD E: I mean uh {disfmarker}
Professor C: That 's probably not what he 's going to do on his class project . Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah . No .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: So um have you had a chance to do this um thing we talked about yet with the uh {disfmarker} um
PhD E: Insertion penalty ?
Professor C: Uh . No actually I was going a different {disfmarker} That 's a good question , too , but I was gonna ask about the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the um {vocalsound} changes to the data in comparing PLP and mel cepstrum for the SRI system .
PhD E: Uh . Well what I 've been {disfmarker} " Changes to the data " , I 'm not sure I {disfmarker}
Professor C: Right . So we talked on the phone about this , that {disfmarker} that there was still a difference of a {disfmarker} of a few percent
PhD E: Yeah . Right .
Professor C: and {vocalsound} you told me that there was a difference in how the normalization was done . And I was asking if you were going to do {disfmarker} {vocalsound} redo it uh for PLP with the normalization done as it had been done for the mel cepstrum .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Uh right , no I haven't had a chance to do that .
Professor C: OK .
PhD E: What I 've been doing is {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} trying to figure out {disfmarker} it just seems to me like there 's a um {disfmarker} well it seems like there 's a bug , because the difference in performance is {disfmarker} it 's not gigantic but it 's big enough that it {disfmarker} it seems wrong .
Professor C: Yeah , I agree , but I thought that the normalization difference was one of the possibilities ,
PhD E: and {disfmarker} Yeah , but I don't {disfmarker} I 'm not {disfmarker}
Professor C: right ?
PhD E: Yeah , I guess I don't think that the normalization difference is gonna account for everything .
Professor C: OK .
PhD E: So what I was working on is um just going through and checking the headers of the wavefiles , to see if maybe there was a um {disfmarker} a certain type of compression or something that was done that my script wasn't catching . So that for some subset of the training data , uh the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the features I was computing were junk .
Professor C: OK .
PhD E: Which would you know cause it to perform OK , but uh , you know , the {disfmarker} the models would be all messed up . So I was going through and just double - checking that kind of think first , to see if there was just some kind of obvious bug in the way that I was computing the features .
Professor C: Mm - hmm . I see . OK .
PhD E: Looking at all the sampling rates to make sure all the sampling rates were what {disfmarker} eight K , what I was assuming they were ,
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD E: um {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah , that makes sense , to check all that .
PhD E: Yeah . So I was doing that first , before I did these other things , just to make sure there wasn't something {disfmarker}
Professor C: Although really , uh uh , a couple three percent uh difference in word error rate uh {comment} could easily come from some difference in normalization , I would think . But
PhD E: Yeah , and I think , hhh {disfmarker} {comment} I 'm trying to remember but I think I recall that Andreas was saying that he was gonna run sort of the reverse experiment . Uh which is to try to emulate the normalization that we did but with the mel cepstral features . Sort of , you know , back up from the system that he had . I thought he said he was gonna {disfmarker} I have to look back through my {disfmarker} my email from him .
Professor C: Yeah , he 's probably off at {disfmarker} at uh his meeting now ,
PhD E: Yeah , he 's gone now .
Professor C: yeah .
PhD E: Um .
Professor C: Yeah . But yeah
PhD E: But {disfmarker}
Professor C: the {disfmarker} I sh think they should be {vocalsound} roughly equivalent , um I mean again the Cambridge folk found the PLP actually to be a little better . Uh So it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um
PhD E: Right .
Professor C: I mean the other thing I wonder about was whether there was something just in the {disfmarker} the bootstrapping of their system which was based on {disfmarker} but maybe not , since they {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah see one thing that 's a little bit um {disfmarker} I was looking {disfmarker} I 've been studying and going through the logs for the system that um Andreas created . And um his uh {disfmarker} the way that the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {comment} S R I system looks like it works is that it reads the wavefiles directly , uh and does all of the cepstral computation stuff on the fly .
Professor C: Right . Right .
PhD E: And , so there 's no place where these {disfmarker} where the cepstral files are stored , anywhere that I can go look at and compare to the PLP ones , so whereas with our features , he 's actually storing the cepstrum on disk , and he reads those in .
Professor C: Right .
PhD E: But it looked like he had to give it {disfmarker} uh even though the cepstrum is already computed , he has to give it uh a front - end parameter file . Which talks about the kind of uh com computation that his mel cepstrum thing does ,
Professor C: Uh - huh .
PhD E: so i I {disfmarker} I don't know if that {disfmarker} it probably doesn't mess it up , it probably just ignores it if it determines that it 's already in the right format or something but {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the two processes that happen are a little different .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD E: So .
Professor C: So anyway , there 's stuff there to sort out .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor C: So , OK . Let 's go back to what you thought I was asking you .
PhD E: Yeah no and I didn't have a chance to do that .
Professor C: Ha ! Oh ! You had the sa same answer anyway .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah . I 've been um , {disfmarker} I 've been working with um Jeremy on his project and then I 've been trying to track down this bug in uh the ICSI front - end features .
Professor C: Uh - huh .
PhD E: So one thing that I did notice , yesterday I was studying the um {disfmarker} the uh RASTA code
Professor C: Uh - huh .
PhD E: and it looks like we don't have any way to um control the frequency range that we use in our analysis . We basically {disfmarker} it looks to me like we do the FFT , um and then we just take all the bins and we use everything . We don't have any set of parameters where we can say you know , " only process from you know a hundred and ten hertz to thirty - seven - fifty " .
Professor C: Um {disfmarker}
PhD E: At least I couldn't see any kind of control for that .
Professor C: Yeah , I don't think it 's in there , I think it 's in the uh uh uh the filters . So , the F F T is on everything , but the filters um , for instance , ignore the {disfmarker} the lowest bins and the highest bins . And what it does is it {disfmarker} it copies
PhD E: The {disfmarker} the filters ? Which filters ?
Professor C: um The filter bank which is created by integrating over F F T bins .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: um
PhD E: When you get the mel {disfmarker} When you go to the mel scale .
Professor C: Right . Yeah , it 's bark scale , and it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it um {disfmarker} it actually copies the uh um {disfmarker} the second filters over to the first . So the first filters are always {disfmarker} and you can s you can specify a different number of {vocalsound} uh features {disfmarker} different number of filters , I think , as I recall . So you can specify a different number of filters , and whatever {vocalsound} um uh you specify , the last ones are gonna be ignored . So that {disfmarker} that 's a way that you sort of change what the {disfmarker} what the bandwidth is . Y you can't do it without I think changing the number of filters , but {disfmarker}
PhD E: I saw something about uh {disfmarker} that looked like it was doing something like that , but I didn't quite understand it . So maybe {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah , so the idea is that the very lowest frequencies and {disfmarker} and typically the veriest {comment} highest frequencies are kind of junk .
PhD E: Uh - huh .
Professor C: And so um you just {disfmarker} for continuity you just approximate them by {disfmarker} {vocalsound} by the second to highest and second to lowest . It 's just a simple thing we put in .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And {disfmarker} and so if you h
PhD E: But {disfmarker} so the {disfmarker} but that 's a fixed uh thing ?
Professor C: Yeah , {comment} I think that 's a fixed thing .
PhD E: There 's nothing that lets you {disfmarker}
Professor C: But see {disfmarker} see my point ? If you had {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you had ten filters , {vocalsound} then you would be throwing away a lot at the two ends .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And if you had {disfmarker} if you had fifty filters , you 'd be throwing away hardly anything .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Um , I don't remember there being an independent way of saying " we 're just gonna make them from here to here " .
PhD E: Use this analysis bandwidth or something .
Professor C: But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know , it 's actually been awhile since I 've looked at it .
PhD E: Yeah , I went through the Feacalc code and then looked at you know just calling the RASTA libs {comment} and thing like that . And I didn't {disfmarker} I couldn't see any wh place where that kind of thing was done . But um I didn't quite understand everything that I saw ,
Professor C: Yeah , see I don't know Feacalc at all .
PhD E: so {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .
Professor C: But it calls RASTA with some options , and um
PhD E: Right .
Professor C: But I {disfmarker} I think in {disfmarker} I don't know . I guess for some particular database you might find that you could tune that and tweak that to get that a little better , but I think that {vocalsound} in general it 's not that critical . I mean there 's {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: You can {disfmarker} You can throw away stuff below a hundred hertz or so and it 's just not going to affect phonetic classification at all .
PhD E: Another thing I was thinking about was um is there a {disfmarker} I was wondering if there 's maybe um {vocalsound} certain settings of the parameters when you compute PLP which would basically cause it to output mel cepstrum . So that , in effect , what I could do is use our code but produce mel cepstrum and compare that directly to {disfmarker}
Professor C: Well , it 's not precisely . Yeah . I mean ,
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor C: um , {vocalsound} um what you can do is um you can definitely change the {disfmarker} the filter bank from being uh a uh trapezoidal integration to a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a triangular one ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: which is what the typical mel {disfmarker} mel cepstral uh filter bank does .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And some people have claimed that they got some better performance doing that , so you certainly could do that easily . But the fundamental difference , I mean , there 's other small differences {disfmarker}
PhD E: There 's a cubic root that happens , right ?
Professor C: Yeah , but , you know , as opposed to the log in the other case . I mean {vocalsound} the fundamental d d difference that we 've seen any kind of difference from before , which is actually an advantage for the P L P i uh , I think , is that the {disfmarker} the smoothing at the end is auto - regressive instead of being cepstral {disfmarker} uh , {comment} from cepstral truncation . So um it 's a little more noise robust .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor C: Um , and that 's {disfmarker} that 's why when people started getting databases that had a little more noise in it , like {disfmarker} like uh um Broadcast News and so on , that 's why c Cambridge switched to PLP I think .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So um That 's a difference that I don't {vocalsound} think we put any way to get around , since it was an advantage . um {vocalsound} uh
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: but we did {disfmarker} eh we did hear this comment from people at some point , that {vocalsound} um it uh they got some better results with the triangular filters rather than the trapezoidal . So that is an option in RASTA .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor C: Uh and you can certainly play with that . But I think you 're probably doing the right thing to look for bugs first . I don't know .
PhD E: Yeah just {disfmarker} it just seems like this kind of behavior could be caused by you know s some of the training data being messed up .
Professor C: Could be .
PhD E: You know , you 're sort of getting most of the way there , but there 's a {disfmarker} So I started going through and looking {disfmarker} One of the things that I did notice was that the um log likelihoods coming out of the log recognizer from the PLP data were much lower , much smaller , than for the mel cepstral stuff , and that the average amount of pruning that was happening was therefore a little bit higher for the PLP features .
Professor C: Oh - huh !
PhD E: So , since he used the same exact pruning thresholds for both , I was wondering if it could be that we 're getting more pruning .
Professor C: Oh ! He {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} {vocalsound} He used the identical pruning thresholds even though the s the range of p of the likeli
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: Oh well that 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That 's a pretty good {comment} point right there .
PhD E: Right . Right .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah ,
Professor C: I would think that you might wanna do something like uh you know , look at a few points to see where you are starting to get significant search errors .
PhD E: so {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker} Right . Well , what I was gonna do is I was gonna take um a couple of the utterances that he had run through , then run them through again but modify the pruning threshold and see if it you know , affects the score .
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah . But I mean you could {disfmarker} uh if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if that looks promising you could , you know , r uh run {vocalsound} the overall test set with a {disfmarker} with a few different uh pruning thresholds for both ,
PhD E: So . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: and presumably he 's running at some pruning threshold that 's {disfmarker} that 's uh , you know {disfmarker} gets very few search errors
PhD E: Right .
Professor C: but is {disfmarker} is relatively fast
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Right . I mean , yeah , generally in these things you {disfmarker} you turn back pruning really far ,
Professor C: and {disfmarker}
PhD E: so I {disfmarker} I didn't think it would be that big a deal because I was figuring well you have it turned back so far that you know it {disfmarker}
Professor C: But you may be in the wrong range for the P L P features for some reason .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . And the uh the {disfmarker} the run time of the recognizer on the PLP features is longer which sort of implies that the networks are bushier , you know , there 's more things it 's considering which goes along with the fact that the matches aren't as good . So uh , you know , it could be that we 're just pruning too much .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD E: So .
Professor C: Yeah , maybe just be different kind of distributions and {disfmarker} and
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: yeah so that 's another possible thing . They {disfmarker} they should {disfmarker} really shouldn't {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: There 's no particular reason why they would be exactly {disfmarker} behave exactly the same .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Right . Right .
Professor C: So .
PhD E: So . There 's lots of little differences .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD E: So . Uh .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD E: Trying to track it down .
Professor C: Yeah . I guess this was a little bit off topic , I guess , because I was {disfmarker} I was thinking in terms of th this as being a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a core {vocalsound} item that once we {disfmarker} once we had it going we would use for a number of the front - end things also .
PhD E: Yeah
Professor C: So .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: um Wanna {disfmarker}
Grad B: That 's {disfmarker} as far as my stuff goes ,
Professor C: What 's {disfmarker} what 's on {disfmarker}
Grad B: yeah , well I {vocalsound} tried this mean subtraction method .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad B: Um . Due to Avendano , {vocalsound} I 'm taking s um {vocalsound} six seconds of speech , um {vocalsound} I 'm using two second {vocalsound} FFT analysis frames , {vocalsound} stepped by a half second so it 's a quarter length step and I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I take that frame and four f the four {disfmarker} I take {disfmarker} Sorry , I take the current frame and the four past frames and the {vocalsound} four future frames and that adds up to six seconds of speech . And I calculate um {vocalsound} the spectral mean , {vocalsound} of the log magnitude spectrum {pause} over that N . I use that to normalize the s the current center frame {vocalsound} by mean subtraction . And I then {disfmarker} then I move to the next frame and I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I do it again . Well , actually I calculate all the means first and then I do the subtraction . And um {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} I tried that with HDK , the Aurora setup of HDK training on clean TI - digits , and um {vocalsound} it {disfmarker} it helped um in a phony reverberation case um {vocalsound} where I just used the simulated impulse response um {vocalsound} the error rate went from something like eighty it was from something like eighteen percent {vocalsound} to um four percent . And on meeting rec recorder far mike digits , mike {disfmarker} on channel F , it went from um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} forty - one percent error to eight percent error .
PhD E: On {disfmarker} on the real data , not with artificial reverb ?
Grad B: Right .
PhD E: Uh - huh .
Grad B: And that {disfmarker} that was um {vocalsound} trained on clean speech only , which I 'm guessing is the reason why the baseline was so bad . And {disfmarker}
Professor C: That 's ac actually a little side point is I think that 's the first results that we have uh uh uh of any sort on the far field uh {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on the far field data uh for {disfmarker} recorded in {disfmarker} in meetings .
Grad B: Oh um actually um Adam ran the SRI recognizer .
Professor C: Did he ? On the near field , on the ne
Grad B: On the far field also . He did one PZM channel and one PDA channel .
Professor C: Oh did he ? Oh ! I didn't recall that . What kind of numbers was he getting with that ?
Grad B: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I 'm not sure , I think it was about five percent error for the PZM channel .
Professor C: Five .
Grad B: f I think . Yeah .
Professor C: So why were you getting forty - one here ? Is this {disfmarker}
Grad B: Um . I {disfmarker} I 'm g I 'm guessing it was the {disfmarker} the training data . Uh , clean TI - digits is , like , pretty pristine {vocalsound} training data , and if they trained {vocalsound} the SRI system on this TV broadcast type stuff , I think it 's a much wider range of channels and it {disfmarker}
Professor C: No , but wait a minute . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I th {disfmarker} I think he {disfmarker} What am I saying here ? Yeah , so that was the SRI system . Maybe you 're right . Yeah . Cuz it was getting like one percent {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So it 's still this kind of ratio . It was {disfmarker} it was getting one percent or something on the near field . Wasn't it ?
PhD E: Mm - hmm , or it wa a it was around one .
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah . I think it was getting around one percent for the near {disfmarker} for the n for the close mike .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad B: Huh ? OK .
Professor C: So it was like one to five {disfmarker} So it 's still this kind of ratio . It 's just {disfmarker} yeah , it 's a lot more training data . So So probably it should be something we should try then is to {disfmarker} is to see if {disfmarker} is {vocalsound} at some point just to take {disfmarker} i to transform the data and then {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and then uh use th use it for the SRI system .
Grad B: b You me you mean um ta
Professor C: So you 're {disfmarker} so you have a system which for one reason or another is relatively poor ,
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: and {disfmarker} and uh you have something like forty - one percent error uh and then you transform it to eight by doing {disfmarker} doing this {disfmarker} this work . Um . So here 's this other system , which is a lot better , but there 's still this kind of ratio . It 's something like five percent error {vocalsound} with the {disfmarker} the distant mike , and one percent with the close mike .
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: So the question is {vocalsound} how close to that one can you get {vocalsound} if you transform the data using that system .
Grad B: r Right , so {disfmarker} so I guess this SRI system is trained on a lot of s Broadcast News or Switchboard data . Is that right ?
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad B: Do you know which one it is ?
PhD E: It 's trained on a lot of different things . Um . It 's trained on uh a lot of Switchboard , Call Home ,
Grad B: Uh - huh .
PhD E: um a bunch of different sources , some digits , there 's some digits training in there .
Grad B: OK .
Grad A: Hmm .
Grad B: O one thing I 'm wondering about is what this mean subtraction method {vocalsound} um will do if it 's faced with additive noise . Cuz I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} it 's cuz I don't know what log magnitude spectral subtraction is gonna do to additive noise .
Professor C: Yeah ,
Grad B: That 's {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker}
Professor C: well , it 's {disfmarker} it 's not exactly the right thing
Grad B: Uh - huh .
Professor C: but {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} but you 've already seen that cuz there is added noise here .
Grad B: That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} Yeah , that 's true . That 's a good point .
Professor C: Yeah . So um {disfmarker}
Grad B: OK , so it 's then {disfmarker} then it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's reasonable to expect it would be helpful if we used it with the SRI system and
Professor C: Yeah , I mean , as helpful {disfmarker} I mean , so that 's the question . Yeah , w we 're often asked this when we work with a system that {disfmarker} that isn't {disfmarker} isn't sort of industry {disfmarker} industry standard great ,
Grad B: Uh - huh .
Professor C: uh and we see some reduction in error using some clever method , then , you know , will it work on a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on a {disfmarker} on a good system . So uh you know , this other one 's {disfmarker} it was a pretty good system . I think , you know , one {disfmarker} one percent word error rate on digits is {disfmarker} uh digit strings is not {vocalsound} uh you know stellar , but {disfmarker} but given that this is real {vocalsound} digits , as opposed to uh sort of laboratory {disfmarker}
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Well .
PhD E: And it wasn't trained on this task either .
Professor C: And it wasn't trained on this task . Actually one percent is sort of {disfmarker} you know , sort of in a reasonable range .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: People would say " yeah , I could {disfmarker} I can imagine getting that " . And uh so the {disfmarker} the four or five percent or something is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is quite poor .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Uh , you know , if you 're doing a uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a sixteen digit uh credit card number you 'll basically get it wrong almost all the time .
Grad B: Hmm .
Professor C: So . So . Uh , {vocalsound} um a significant reduction in the error for that would be great .
Grad B: Huh , OK .
Professor C: And {disfmarker} and then , uh Yeah . So . Yeah . Cool .
Grad B: Sounds good .
Professor C: Yeah . Alright , um , I actually have to run . So I don't think I can do the digits , but um , {vocalsound} I guess I 'll leave my microphone on ?
PhD E: Uh , yeah .
Professor C: Yeah . Thank you .
PhD E: Yep . Yeah . That 'll work .
Professor C: I can be out of here quickly . {comment} {comment} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That 's I just have to run for another appointment . OK , I t Yeah . I left it on . OK .
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Project Manager: Okay . Hi Team . Hope you had a good lunch .
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay we're back for the conceptual design meeting . Um let's get started . 'Kay , here is the agenda for today's meeting . Um we're gonna open it and I'm gonna keep the minutes as Project Manager . We're gonna have three presentations , one from each of you again . And then we are going to come to decision on the remote control concepts and then we're gonna close it up . And we have forty minutes again . 'Kay , and just to reiterate um after this meeting the team will reach a decision on the concepts of the remote control . Okay . Let's go ahead and start off with your presentations . Who would like to go first ?
Industrial Designer: Just trying to move mine right now .
Project Manager: Okay . Um Courtney would you mind starting us off ?
Marketing: Yeah {gap} .
Project Manager: Okay . Trend watching ? 'Kay .
Marketing: Yeah . Okay , so trend watching . Uh since we do put the fashion in electronics , it is kind of important how our product looks . So I guess we can go ahead and go to the next . So what they want . Right now customers want fancy versus functional . Um basically about fifty eight percent of what they {disfmarker} like of the product that they want , describing like the {disfmarker} in order of how much they want , fifty eight per cent of the decision of what it should look like , fancy versus functional , and then it has to also be technologically innovative , and yet easy to use . So the customer basically is confused . They don't know exactly what they want . They want us to tell them . {gap}
Industrial Designer: They want everything , but simply .
Marketing: Yes . Exactly .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: So we can go to next .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
Marketing: Okay . So in Milan and Paris recently the trends have been showing that clothing , shoes and furniture are basically just covered with fruits and vegetable patterns .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So I don't know if we want to go with that um and also the spongy feel is in in contrast to last year . I don't know really , I mean I guess the spongy could relate to the buttons if we want to
Project Manager: Mm . Mm .
Marketing: rather than like a hard clicky button that you find on like some mobiles and stuff , you'd want like a softer touch . I mean do you guys know what I mean .
Project Manager: Right . Yes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah th
Marketing: Yeah . Um . But as for the fruits and vegetable patterns , I don't know if we really want to go with that , because it is just a trend ,
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: and our product we want to stay around for much longer than just a few months ,
Project Manager: Right . People don't buy a new remote every so often .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I can {disfmarker}
Marketing: because {disfmarker} Yeah . I mean that could just be a Spring thing right now .
Industrial Designer: I can address some of that issue , I think , with uh my presentation .
Marketing: Okay . Awesome .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Um so design preferences , um we need easy to read like large buttons , clearly labelled so that , I mean 'cause we talked about that being a problem . Um and then also buttons illuminating upon touch , you said that in your design , with the bulb . Um and that could also tie in with the colour scheme . Uh we need the Real Reaction logo and colour scheme obviously . That's one of our key goals , we wanna promote our product .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: And I was thinking about different types of designs and I came up with something . Actually right here . So what we could do is something like an old-fashioned telephone like this , where we put the buttons around , like we'd put a big on-off button or something else in the middle , I mean it could be the arrows or whatever for channel up and down , and then put the numbers around in like an old-fashioned dial shape . 'Cause then it'll appeal to older generation and like said retro's cool . So it's classically retro .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: So I mean that's just an idea if you guys like it .
Project Manager: Very good . I like it . {vocalsound} Okay , ready for the next slide ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} And , yep . And that's it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Op mm 'kay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: Great . Great presentation . Ready ?
User Interface: Okay hang on .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: See if it's there . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Which one is it ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't know . Hang on .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Interface concepts , no ?
Project Manager: Interface concepts new .
User Interface: Either refresh it , or it sh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Y
User Interface: Oh wait , maybe I didn't put it there . Hang on .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Mine will always read copy of something or other .
Project Manager: Sorry ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I I copied mine before I sent it over .
Project Manager: Oh okay .
User Interface: Sorry , hang on . Don't know {gap} .
Project Manager: Oh there we go .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Okay , um {vocalsound} looking at the interface concept , it's gonna be mostly examples of possibilities of where we can go with this . Uh if you wanna start the next slide .
Project Manager: Sure .
User Interface: Um uh can't really see , but there's two possible ways , on the r left , if you see on th on the sides of of the remote , you have the sort of scroll down , so you have that option right there . And then also there's the idea of the base . That's sort of like an idea there . And then on the right , we have what's really big trend right now , it's the iPod . It's becoming really {gap} and so you have this sort of very very simplistic menu section uh with the round buttons , and it's sort of like you have the both {gap} kind of trendy and hip , but also very sleek and um and very simple , but technologically advanced . So if you wanted to do that th if we could find a way of sort of like {vocalsound} using that idea in a remote control then sort of look into it , but {disfmarker} Anyway , next .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: Um there's the idea of like being able to do it by feel as well as by um by sight . You'd you know you're in the dark , you don't wanna be looking at the remote control . And the picture particularly is pointing out if you look at the top volume button it's a V_ , and so yo you're kind of feeling a V_ like volume up . What it really is is a V_ and what it you think it is is down , because the down arrow .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: And so it's like a sort of a criticism you'd probably turn that o the other way up . Um but then you have {disfmarker} you could either do it by raised type , which could be you know , iffy , um sort of old-fashioned in a way .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Either that or just have it by shape , for example you have a specific triangular shape that you know you're looking at the up and down arrow . And then the round ones you sort of feel by , you know , that's the second one down , that sort of thing . So it's sort of looking into how we wanted t to do it by feel .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Okay . Um this is sort of an example of going for a s certain demographic . Um this is particularly geared towards children .
Marketing: That's cute .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Um it's very cute , and we could probably change it to yellow , bright yellow for like a the for the company logo . Um and you have the shapes and it's very simplistic and friendly looking . Um and then the other thing that it would be able to do is just to pro be ab you program certain {disfmarker} {vocalsound} channels that only these children would watch , so it's like they ch watch , you know , the C_ Beebies or something like that ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: uh keep them away from other channels . So that's like another ar Um ,
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: I mean , these are three examples sort of looking at it . You have the wider section for the main controls there . Uh you could see how many buttons there are . And then on the left you have an example of the round buttons , and a simpler design . On the bottom we probably wouldn't need that , because it's more for like a D_V_D_ {vocalsound} function which we are not gonna be using . Um . So again it's sort of like just give you ideas and then down at the bottom you have the logos and that's where you could put the R_R_ , Real Reaction .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: And then finally these are like the sort of same examples , but also some more , just possibilities that we could go with . None of them I'm particularly keen on by the way . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} But it's sort of like just taking aspects out of that and saying , well out of this one we like , you know the round section of um , b or we'd like the the button size on this .
Project Manager: Mm . Or I like , you know , the black finish or the silver finish or whatever .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: I have four of those remotes .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good lord .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . Ready ? Oh , yeah . Okay .
User Interface: That's it .
Project Manager: Great job .
Industrial Designer: Okay , my turn .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Whoo .
Project Manager: What's the title ?
Industrial Designer: It'll be copy of component design .
Project Manager: Got it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Th that looks like it . 'Kay . So basic remote operation runs as follows , press button makes connection with the power source and the rest of the circuit , chip senses the connection , chip produces a morse code infra-red signal , specific to that button . So you press the button , it produces uh a signal that's encoded specifically for that button . Transistors amplify that signal and it goes to the T_V_'s centre , which interprets the signal response accordingly , changes channel etcetera . So that being said {disfmarker} Next slide , please . Findings oh which were the required materials for the basic internal construction , so all the really simplistic functions that we just discussed , we need rubber for buttons , aluminium for battery y contacts , integrated circuit which consists of a diode , transistor , resonator , resistors , and a capacitator , all those basic things that make a circuit function . Um fibreglass and thin copper wire to create the actual circuit board itself . An L_E_D_ , which is a light emitting diode , um contact discs for the buttons , plastic for the casing , and a power-source , whatever power-source we've actually determined we want . Next slide , please . Thank you . Uh personal preferences , uh to save money for the components , the remote should be mass-produced and basic materials should be bought en masse . Um if we find another company who can produce the required chips , casing , L_E_D_ , any additional materials we decide we require at a less expensive rate than we ourselves are producing , we should go for it . {vocalsound} Next slide , please . Um just talking to the um manufacturing division . They suggested power options , solar cells , hand dynamo , and kinetic power , so you shake it and it increases the power . Um I'm not sure how the hand dynamo works , they have yet to get back to me on that .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: So next slide , please .
Project Manager: Interesting .
Industrial Designer: Suggested casing options . Okay . We can offer options for casing such as straight , curved , double-curved , you know , very specific to the customer . Options for materials , plastic , rubber , titanium , wood .
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: I don't think anyone's gonna go for a wood one , because splinters {disfmarker}
Marketing: That would be amazing , though , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: No , splinters would {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um certain restrictions do apply here though . Uh latex , you can't do solar power with a latex one . So , if they want some a soft squishy rubber , they can't have the solar powered option . Double-curved , you can't do titanium .
Marketing: What is that ?
Industrial Designer: Um that would be two curvatures , so it would actually , if you {disfmarker} the shape of your hand , you curve here and you curve here , so you could have two curves that match the shape of your hand to make it more comfortable to hold .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Now if you wanted that , you can't do titanium . And uh so you {gap} functions what {disfmarker} for the buttons , scrolling function could be very beneficial to us instead of actual buttons themselves .
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: I think I have one more slide .
Project Manager: No , okay .
Industrial Designer: No , I didn't . Um the manufacturing division also has said that um {vocalsound} they have several types of chips and they've just developed a sample sensor or sample speaker chip , which we could utilise . Um push button requires a simple chip and scroll requires more complicated chip . So depends on what we decide we wanna do . In addition to that if we're offering all those different options to the customer for producing their remote , we're going to have to have multiples of each type , like a double-curved in rubber , um you know , each option should have a certain select number produced with all those options . So we'll have to mix it up , make sure we produce enough of everyone . But that could also drive up the price of the actual remote itself if they know that we only produced five thousand , you know , double-curved wooden remotes .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay . Alright ,
Industrial Designer: And that's all I got .
Project Manager: well thank you for those informative presentations . Let's go back to um {disfmarker} Now we have to make some decisions . Where were we ?
User Interface: Let me just add one more thing that I couldn't say before ,
Project Manager: Sure .
User Interface: and that's just that there's the new technology that they've developed on the voice recognition . Um .
Marketing: Oh this {disfmarker} the thing we were talking about earlier .
User Interface: Right except that it's sort of odd , and I'm no not exactly sure why they are explaining it in the way they are , um there's a sample sensor and there's a sample speaker unit for {disfmarker} So , you would say like , good morning , coffeemaker , and it would respond , good morning , Jill ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but I'm not sure exactly how it's gonna work , 'cause do you programme {disfmarker} do we program the responses and the questions . So does that mean that the user then has to ask the specific question , and can't change it in order for it to be recognised ,
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: or can it be altered in a certain way , or does the actually user program it , to say a channel means this .
Project Manager: Right . Right .
Marketing: Yeah , like using the menu to be like , enter your name into the screen like on the menu options .
User Interface: Right ,
Marketing: So that way the remote reads it .
User Interface: so it's got like a limited memory and {gap} programme it . So it's sort of iffy ,
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: but that's kind of what you'd say .
Marketing: I feel like voice recognition would be , I don't know , w it would be too hard to really {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm . Programme .
Marketing: I mean we could do it , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: If it's within our price to get that kind of chip that would , you know , technology {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well , we are making the chip .
Marketing: Technology .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: So , I mean {disfmarker} But , I guess , we have to look at w what {vocalsound} our production cost is for the chip itself anyway .
Marketing: And it is a growing trend , the higher technological , like
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: the , I mean just like the more advanced it is ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: the better it'll sell .
Industrial Designer: I I thought {vocalsound} offering some of those options for different materials that it could be made of different , you know {disfmarker} I think we'd have to decide on the power options , maybe .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: So that we could reduce cost .
Marketing: Yeah , 'cause we need to know how big it's gonna be and how heavy . {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , that kind of brings us to this , let's let's see if we can decide what kind of energy source we want to have first and foremost . Um .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Do we wanna go for batteries or a stand like the one that we saw illustrated earlier ?
Marketing: Oh the base , yeah .
Project Manager: The base , the charging base with rechargeable batteries ?
Industrial Designer: I think the p
User Interface: I always feel like first I wanna know what it looks like , before {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: 'Cause if it's something really really small , then it's sort of harder to imagine a base for it , that was p quite a s substantial size sort of standing up {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , and we don't have multiple things that it has to control , it just has to control the T_V_ .
Marketing: W
Project Manager: It's not gonna be a huge universal remote .
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: We need to decide , well so we can figure how big it's gonna be , like exactly what buttons we want
Project Manager: What size battery and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , the other thing is like even if it's got a few buttons , so we want it to be bigger than this ,
Marketing: and exactly {disfmarker} It could be like this . Yes .
User Interface: 'cause it still fits in your hand , so you still wanted something that's comfortable and substantial , but not necessarily full of buttons .
Marketing: I'd , well uh {disfmarker} This one is really comfortable , like I like the sides whatever ,
User Interface: Are you gonna lose it easier ?
Marketing: because {disfmarker} But if we have the um , the locator , then we don't have to worry about that .
Industrial Designer: That's true .
Marketing: So we can make it small if we have a l locating device .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: If we do a voice-activated locator , though , we're gonna be looking at a more substantial chip . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: So i That's the other thing ,
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: it's like {disfmarker} You know {gap} Are we gonna have certain chips that are gonna require bigger size {vocalsound} period ?
Marketing: Two double A_s , for this size .
User Interface: But like , you know , if we get more complicated then it's gonna v be {disfmarker} have to be bigger to just accommodate the chip size .
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: Honestly , I think the customer would be kind of irritated by the fact that it has a base if we did do a nice small , compact {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right . I agree , it's either gonna be bigger with a base or smaller with just {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: So we sh
Marketing: Smaller , without {disfmarker}
Project Manager: A battery like this guy .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Alright , so what direction do you want to go in ? You wanna vote ?
Marketing: I think if we had a a locating device with the small one , I think that seems way more advanced .
Project Manager: I'm kind of I'm kind of leaning in the direction of this kind of
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: I'm a away from the base .
Project Manager: bigger and the base .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: That just seems so clunky and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: 'Kay so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , because I mean if even looking at cellphones right now , those trends the smaller the hotter it is ,
User Interface: Smaller and smaller , yeah , yeah , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: yeah {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The only problem with that is if you forget to take it out of your pocket and it goes in wash .
User Interface: {vocalsound} You're kidding .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You know it happens .
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I've had three watches go that way too .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh watches I've {disfmarker} but I've never washed a cell phone . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ouch . A phone , whoa , that would {disfmarker} wow , that would hurt .
Project Manager: Okay , so what kind of material do we want to be made out of ?
Industrial Designer: Pieces everywhere . Well , we have lots of options . I don't think wood is a viable option .
Marketing: Yeah wood .
Project Manager: No . Oh what did you {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , titanium s
Project Manager: Oh sorry , go ahead .
User Interface: I was saying that titanium , if we're being restricted then I would probably {vocalsound} lean away from that .
Marketing: Yeah , 'cause if it's gonna cost us more to produce a chip , titanium will be more expensive .
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: However ,
Project Manager: What would you recommend ?
Industrial Designer: well , we only wanna sell it for twenty five Euro
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: right ? 'Cause I was thinking if we wanted to get the high in market then you could produce a few in titanium ,
User Interface: Yeah . That'll {disfmarker} Yeah , exactly .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: make them a rarity so to speak .
User Interface: The selling point , yeah .
Marketing: We could do that , because all our research shows that people are definitely willing to spend more if {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Are we restricted by this ?
Project Manager: I I think we should just focus on one design and one concept right now.I'm
Industrial Designer: Well the original {disfmarker}
User Interface: Twenty five Euros
Project Manager: not sure that we'll have the time and money to {vocalsound} produce a whole array of
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: remotes . If this was a successful remote , we might then produce a higher end version of it , I think .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Good plan .
Marketing: Good plan .
Project Manager: Okay , so we wanna go for plastic , or what would you recommend for materials ?
Industrial Designer: Honestly I'd recommend like um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: uh since we're going with batteries instead of solar power , I'd recommend maybe a uh soft like latex ,
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: because we could produce , you know how cellphones have those overlays that you can change the colour .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: We could do uh one that fits in with the trends of the year so ,
Marketing: Oh .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: because this year is all fruit , God only knows why ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , who knows .
Industrial Designer: um we could do f a cherry cover for this year and then i if next year is stripes or solids , you know {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: So you're talking about like when it leaves our salesroom then it's all gonna be cherry-coloured or is it gonna be the kinda thing where people come back and swap it ?
Marketing: O or we could like take off this .
Project Manager: They could buy cases , maybe ,
Industrial Designer: They could come back . And buy the extra case .
Project Manager: if they wanted .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: I think it's good to sell a basic thing and then sell options .
Industrial Designer: So we could do like a b a hard base plastic , and then we could {vocalsound} give two latex covers to start .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: The {disfmarker} what the top face , right ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Okay .
Marketing: Yeah , because the soft latex definitely is squishy . That's in . Well I mean squishier than like , yeah , just a hard plastic .
Project Manager: Right . Right . Okay , and what kind of chip would we need for this guy ?
Industrial Designer: How complicated {disfmarker} Are we gonna go with the voice activated {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I don't think we should do voice , I think we should just do um the recognition for when it's lost , you know . {gap} could we {disfmarker}
User Interface: A tracker , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: 'Cause that uh {disfmarker} what it type of , yeah , for voice activation would it be like a certain term what we would say like ,
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: because people could just be talking and we don't want it going off all the time .
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: Well , we could give it a specific code , you know , remote missing .
Marketing: So uh {disfmarker} Ooh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh see I'm uh I'm strangely attracted to it , because I know that's {disfmarker} it's definitely gonna be big , because it's , I don't know , it's just so high-tech .
User Interface: Well , my little sister got {disfmarker} for Christmas she got one of those key finders that's like a key-ring , and you have to whistle in a certain frequency for it to work .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , see that would just irritate me .
User Interface: And then she would laugh and it would start going off in her purse , and you couldn't turn it off .
Project Manager: Oh dear .
Marketing: Oh ,
User Interface: So it became highly irritating .
Marketing: then maybe voice
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So I think having a key-phrase is much better .
Marketing: maybe voice activation won't be good .
Project Manager: Okay . Alright . But it's not gonna be voice activated in the fact that you would say , channel up , and it would work , right ?
Marketing: Yeah , n n no , we just want it to be a finder .
Project Manager: Just a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: But then it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , alright .
User Interface: Hmm . Okay .
Marketing: But do {disfmarker} can your {disfmarker} can the department make {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That would be like a mid-class um {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Oh , brilliant then .
Industrial Designer: So we don't actually have to go for {disfmarker} Well , if they've just developed the sample sensor , sample speaker , it's a brand new chip .
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: Why not introduce it in this way ?
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
Marketing: Yeah , good point .
Project Manager: Uh and what size batteries , double A_ , triple A_ ?
Marketing: I think triple A_ , it'll be lighter .
Project Manager: Two ? Could it run off of two {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean more more come in a package .
User Interface: Well , that depends on what the energy is needed .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think , well , we could d r do two or we could do one small lithium , 'cause you know the lithium batteries are doing quite well in most other electronic products , right ? So they're more widely available now . And they also have a longer battery life than most batteries .
Project Manager: They're more expensive though , too .
Industrial Designer: But if you only have to replace it every five years .
Project Manager: Mm . Thoughts anybody ?
Marketing: That's a good point .
User Interface: As long as we sell it with it .
Industrial Designer: Well , how about a initial , you get one battery when you buy it ,
User Interface: Right , that's what I meant .
Industrial Designer: 'cause I'm pretty sure we can get them pretty cheap on bulk .
Marketing: We could think about it and come back to it next meeting .
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah . Alright .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: We still have one more meeting .
Project Manager: Okay . So we've covered that first category , User Interface Concept , meaning design .
User Interface: What's it gonna {disfmarker} Yeah , what's it gonna look like .
Project Manager: Okay . I ki I kind of {vocalsound} like your idea about the retro phone dial ,
User Interface: Um .
Project Manager: and that {disfmarker} the central button could have , maybe our logo on it ? It might be the four way scroll , too . I mean if {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , it could be whatever ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: as long as there's something big in the middle , because like the old phones , there's like that just like piece of metal or like a picture or something in the middle .
Project Manager: Yeah . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Well , my issue with that is if it got too big though , 'cause if you have the circle and the button in the middle , then is it gonna get wider than your your hands are ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Oh , that's true .
User Interface: because w And then would the buttons be too small if it was enough to fit on it ?
Marketing: Good point .
Industrial Designer: In the sample ones that you showed us there was one that had the scroll buttons on the side ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: which I think if we make it curved like a hand like a hand-shape like if we put the the scroll-button on the side ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Oh , I see what you mean .
Industrial Designer: that could be particularly useful .
Project Manager: I think so .
Marketing: So scroll buttons on the side and then buttons on top ?
Project Manager: Yeah , I like that . 'Kay .
Marketing: But we definitely {disfmarker} If we have scroll things on the side , we definitely have to have 'em labelled .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Well , if it's just up and down {disfmarker}
Marketing: like on the side of it . Oh if it's just up and down .
User Interface: But is that for {disfmarker} {gap}
Industrial Designer: Volume or channel .
User Interface: Which ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I don't know .
Marketing: Well , you could do some on both sides .
User Interface: Do we have both sides ?
Project Manager: Can we ?
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah . We should probably make it that you have to depress it to activate it then ,
Project Manager: So that you're just not holding it and it changes the chan
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: 'cause oth {vocalsound} otherwise you're not just holding it and going like this , you know .
Marketing: That's squishy . That's squishy .
User Interface: Well , the other option is in instead of a scroll you just have the buttons up on the side which are on the side .
Marketing: {gap} have buttons .
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah , {gap} that .
Project Manager: Hmm . 'Kay any other ideas ?
User Interface: Um what colour ?
Project Manager: Oh , yeah . Latex covers . W
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We have to make sure that logo always sticks out when we put the latex covers on , so we'll have to like have a little square or something , so that the our logo's available .
User Interface: Well I sort of like having the a yellow strip at the bottom with the R_R_ like that . And that's at the bottom of it .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think maybe we should do it on a b button itself though , because if people are able to change the covers ,
User Interface: Which button ?
Project Manager: I don't know , maybe the on-off button , something , some {disfmarker} the menu button , I don't know , but you know if we're gonna put our company logo on there and somebody could just get another one . Are they all gonna have our company logo on them ? Every cover ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I don't think we should do that , because that would just be icky .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So I think maybe putting it on a button is probably a good idea .
Project Manager: If we want it to be visible and {disfmarker} Um are all those {disfmarker} those one that you showed where they were um s met silver-metallic looking ? But those are plastic , right ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: They're not titanium .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I kind of like that look . Uh but , or if it was really {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: For our base one ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , for the base or if we're going for the retro look , I think , like a really shiny black would be cool .
Marketing: Yeah ,
Project Manager: What are your thoughts ?
Marketing: or like a gun-metal grey ,
Project Manager: Gun-metal gray .
Marketing: 'cause then it combines the silver and the black .
Project Manager: There you go , gun-metal gray .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm just really wary of the putting anything on a button .
Project Manager: Why ?
Industrial Designer: It'll wear off . {vocalsound}
User Interface: What's the button {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , buttons wear off .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Well , w w then what's the button do , and how do you know that that is what the button does ? I guess . Just looking at examples , y you just don't ever see the logo on a button , it's always on the actual casing .
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: There's nothing saying that we have to put the logo on the front of the actual {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: On the back ?
User Interface: But you don't {disfmarker}
Marketing: But we want it to be seen .
Project Manager: It d visible {disfmarker}
User Interface: But uh , yeah , you don't see it .
Project Manager: Visibility though {disfmarker}
Marketing: We need it to be seen .
Project Manager: 'Cause if it was only on the back really the only time you're gonna see it is when you drop it or when you're changing the battery .
User Interface: Well , hang on . The other option is {vocalsound} , I don't know if you can see it but it's like if {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I can find it again .
User Interface: Yeah , it's like the second to last slide .
Project Manager: Okay . And yours was called Interface Concept ?
User Interface: Interface , yeah .
Project Manager: This one ?
User Interface: Yeah . Um .
Project Manager: Well , for some reason I can't get it to just go to that slide directly .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay , it's the very right one . You see at the bottom , it's kind of difficult to see , but you have like a d sort of s division between the bottom like , where the logo is , and if we have the replaceable section , it's like the top . It doesn't necessarily replace the entire top .
Project Manager: Mm
User Interface: And so you have that one piece that stays and the rest just sort of clips in .
Project Manager: Okay , yes
User Interface: If c you envisioning it ?
Project Manager: yes .
User Interface: And so that stays the same when you have the logo , and then you have this s slip that kinda clips in and that's the bit that changes .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: The only problem is we're using a latex overlay so {gap} it actually would go over top of everything and have holes for the buttons ,
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: so I was thinking maybe instead of doing that what we could do is leave a space for where the logo should be .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Like a little cut-out kind of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: That's like , you know , {gap} a a cellphone it's like the the screen is always just left opened .
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: And so , what we are gonna do it like bright yellow with the R_R_ ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Anybody see anything that they liked in these ones ?
Marketing: Some of tho Well , some of those buttons though are blue-based .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Um well , a lot of those buttons are blue-based .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Well , kind of . Um and then if v we do have them illuminate upon contact , they could illuminate yellow .
User Interface: Yellow .
Project Manager: Yellow , I like that idea .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Like if we {vocalsound} like the one all the way on the left , uh you ca you can see it on your computer better .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Um where the button is actually blue , but the number itself is clear or white or whatever so if you pressed it would illuminate yellow .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: So we'd have blue and yellow for the touch buttons .
User Interface: Oh , that one .
Project Manager: I like the yellow illumination idea , very good .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Any other ideas or thoughts ? We all seem to be fairly in agreement about what we wanna do with this project so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um . Ha hang on {gap} {vocalsound} Let me catch up .
Marketing: Mm yeah .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: Did we finalise what buttons we're including or we {gap} just everything that we said before ?
Project Manager: I think there will be time for that later . I'm guessing . 'Kay , well we're gonna wrap this up . Um next meeting is gonna start in thirty minutes , and here's what we're each of us going to do . The I_D_ is going to do the look and feel design , the U_I_D_ the user interface design . I think you're going to get a lot of , I mean , the final say on what buttons get put {disfmarker} We'll all talk about it , but I think , that's pretty much what you're gonna do , right ?
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I guess . 'Kay . And you're gonna do some product evaluation . Okay , and right now , the I_D_ and U_I_D_ , you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Great . Play Doh .
User Interface: Fun . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , and you should all be getting an email pretty soon . Alright . Well , thank you for a very productive meeting .
Industrial Designer: Wonderful Ooh .
| |
doc_28
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Marketing: {vocalsound} Hello . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Dang it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And then you have to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot .
Marketing: Alright .
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: It's important to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot over here .
User Interface: Okay . No , that's okay . Joost , your mouse .
Marketing: What ?
User Interface: No mouse needed ?
Marketing: I've got a touch-pad .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Do you know how how I can wake it up ?
User Interface: A touch-pad ?
Marketing: No , my laptop .
User Interface: Slap it .
Marketing: {vocalsound} You with your brilliant ideas . I don't know if I can touch the power button . Do you know how how I can wake it up ?
User Interface: Is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No . Yeah . Try the power button .
Marketing: Oh .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Come on , move it .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Now , wake up , bitch .
Project Manager: Huh .
User Interface: F_ five . F_ five {gap} .
Industrial Designer: I've lost my screen . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , so did I .
User Interface: I don't .
Marketing: I closed it . That wasn that wasn't very smart , I guess .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Come on . Get back to me . Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I closed the {disfmarker}
Marketing: I closed it .
User Interface: You've got your name . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , my name is name .
Marketing: No , I didn't restart it , I just closed it . Yes .
User Interface: Hope it working .
Marketing: Alright .
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: Never close your laptop .
Project Manager: Yeah ? Everybody's ready ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Great . Thanks .
Project Manager: Great . Well , welcome to the kick-off meeting . I uh forgot to put my name over here , it's uh {vocalsound} it's Martin . Uh , so you all know .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , this is the agenda for today . Well , the opening is what I'm doing right now .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh , we gonna do some acquaintance acquaintance things . Uh give some um examples of the tool training , project plan discussion and the closing . We have twenty five minutes . Okay , the project aim is to design a new remote control .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Uh , some of the {vocalsound} oje objectives are that is has to be original , trendy , and user-friendly . So now we all know what our
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: goal is . Um , I {disfmarker} oh forget {disfmarker} I forget the whole acquaintance part , but we we all know each other . We all know each other's names . Joost , Guido , Antek .
User Interface: What is your name ?
Marketing: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yes . Antek .
User Interface: Antek Ahmet . And Joost . {gap}
Project Manager: Okay . I think we uh al already uh been through that part .
User Interface: Okay . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , it consists of uh three levels of design . Uh we begin with the functional design , then we go to the conceptual design and the detailed design . Every uh level of design consists of some individual work , and we uh close it with a meeting . You all received an email with a example of our explanation of what uh the particular level of design uh means to the different uh functions , and uh you p you probably read that already , so I don't have to tell you about that .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: Okay , first we're gonna um uh gonna try some different things with the tools we have over here , so you get acquainted with these uh um uh meeting tools . We have the smart-boards , uh the thes those two boards . This is the presentation boards , wh which one I'm using right now . You can uh um {disfmarker} there's a document folder called um the sh {vocalsound} shared document folder . You can upload your uh documents to that folder and then you can open them over here , so you can do your PowerPoint presentations on this screen . We also have the white-board . Uh , we're gonna skip through th
User Interface: Can we see the white-board on our laptops ?
Project Manager: No , no . Just on the on the screen over there .
User Interface: No , I saw I saw the file , the smart-board that X_B_K_ but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh , no . Probably is , but I don't know if the software is on the laptop {gap} . Is is {disfmarker} if it's mainly a thing for in the meeting , so I don't think it's {disfmarker} I don't know if it's important .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: This an explanation of the smart-boards . There is a tool-bar over here . It's quite simple . You have the the pen function , eraser function . It's like a very simple uh paint application . Uh , we {disfmarker} well , we use the same file during uh the whole day , and uh you can make new sheets by uh by pu puttin pressing on the blank button . It works like this . Oh . {vocalsound} If pen is selected , yes .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh , no no .
User Interface: With that pen ?
Project Manager: It's not {disfmarker} But it is pen . It's not working like a pen yet .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Huh . Huh .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: It's doing some stuff now . So you can use a pen .
User Interface: Little bit slower .
Project Manager: You can use an eraser . And you can make new uh fi uh new blanks , and you can change uh the line width and the colour of the pen by pressing on forward , which y you have to select pen format . And then select current colour or line width . So , it's quite easy . Uh well , now you're all uh acquainted with the different tools . Right , we're gonna try out the electronic white-boards . Uh , every participant should draw his favourite animal and some of its favourite characteristics ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: on blank sheets with different colours , with different pen widths . Uh , I'll start off then . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'll use this uh same sheet . Alright . Oh , let me think . Different colours . Oh .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , I'm gonna draw um a p piranha . Uh , a fish .
User Interface: {vocalsound} piranha . Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . I'm gonna use some different colour {gap} now .
User Interface: Oh .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Some {disfmarker} a little white . Looks like a fish . Think it is . Oh .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh . {vocalsound} Uh , colour . This is black ? I think so .
User Interface: Yellow {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh . Oh , this is just uh {vocalsound} useless uh drawings but {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh teeth . I need teeth . {vocalsound} Well , they're not supposed to be green , or whatever colour this is .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: Okay . What was uh {disfmarker} I have su to sum up its favourite characteris
User Interface: Different .
Project Manager: Well , I like its uh sharp {disfmarker} razor sharp teeth . {vocalsound} Plus , uh the the big uh forehead and uh a small uh , well a small actual face . And I like its overall uh aggressive look and {disfmarker} Well , that's what I like about uh piranha . I think that's kind of what uh the intention should be .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Well , who wants to be next ?
Marketing: Nobody , I guess . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I will try . Yeah . I will try . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You go , Guido ? Okay . Uh , make a new sheet . Uh , it's by pressing on blank .
User Interface: Blank ?
Project Manager: Yep .
User Interface: Okay . Then pen again ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yep .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: And uh {disfmarker} so in the format menu you can choose the different uh colours and uh pen widths .
User Interface: Okay , um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Format .
User Interface: {gap} control . Uh {disfmarker} Ah , purple . Um , I don't know what my uh favourite uh animal is ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but the easiest animal I can think is is a bird .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh I will {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You know , I thought of that actually .
User Interface: That's my bird . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah ?
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Isn't it quite {disfmarker} it's a little bit light .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh , another colour maybe . A red one .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: A small one . Uh , line width . Two ? Three . Oh that's okay . That's another one .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well , tell us something about uh your favourite characteristics of these uh particular birds .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Ano {vocalsound} Uh {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} it's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Its simplicity . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , it's uh the most simple uh animal I know , I think .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um , I don't know . Maybe because uh there's there's some s uh free uh maybe in the sky or something like that .
Project Manager: Oh , okay . Okay .
User Interface: Maybe a little bit . Yeah . I don't know .
Project Manager: Okay . No , uh it's clear .
User Interface: So {gap} more uh birds ?
Project Manager: N no {vocalsound} no .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We get your point . Okay . Who wants to be next ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} Okay , {vocalsound} okay , {vocalsound} okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , whatever . I'll go next .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Thanks .
User Interface: M
Marketing: I haven't got a favourite animal too , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Pictionary . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh . {vocalsound} What should I draw ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh .
User Interface: A cow .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: Thank you ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I'll draw a penguin . {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} I'll draw a penguin . Whatever . I can't draw , so you can start to laugh already .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I'll do so . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Whatever . Something like that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Come on .
User Interface: Yeah , it's little bit hard .
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm , orange .
User Interface: Orange , of course .
Marketing: Whatever .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh , {vocalsound} it's better than your bird .
User Interface: {gap} Uh yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Everything's better than your bird .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} True .
Marketing: Whatever .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hey , it's blue . No . Whatever . Um , I like its ugliness {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and uh {disfmarker} Yeah , whatever . The way it walks or whatever .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Your turn .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: 'Kay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Drawing . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'm going to draw a cat . I don't know why , but a cat is a very uh smart animal .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And you can have them at home .
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Which is not as the case with uh with bingwings and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well , you can have a piranha at home .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ye yes , {vocalsound} yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Huh .
Marketing: Or a line .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: A little bit . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean a bird . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} Don't mess with my birds , yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's not very uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} very good drawn , but you can see a cat from it . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm . It's a handicapped cat .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} cat .
Project Manager: I don't think uh I don't think uh Darwin would agree with that . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ah , it's not scared . He's crying but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} . Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} He's crying because it's ugl because of his ugliness .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} What do you like about it then ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh it's i most cats are small .
Project Manager: Oh , okay .
Industrial Designer: You can handle them . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . Okay . Okay ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and then we are uh through the tool training , I guess .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I wouldn't call it training , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , this is uh something about the project finance . The selling price of our remote control is gonna be twenty five Euros . And our profit aim is fifteen million Euros . We're very ambitious on this one . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The market range is international , so it's gonna be sold world-wide , and the production cost should be a maximum of twelve Euro fifty per remote control . So that's clear . {gap} {disfmarker} Yeah ?
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright .
Project Manager: Okay , we're now gonna discuss some stuff when {disfmarker} well , we're gonna brainstorm about uh what kind of kemoro romo remote control it's gonna be . Uh , well tell me about your experiences with the remote controls . Do you have uh {disfmarker} know what good experiences with remote controls ? Or do they annoy you sometimes ?
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Are they difficult to understand , or maybe they don't interact with different kind of uh equipment very well ?
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: I don't th I don't think the four of us got problems with remote controls ,
Project Manager: Yeah , okay .
Marketing: but if you see elderly people , all these buttons , and then they buy new T_V_ because their previous one was stolen or whatever .
User Interface: Different .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: And then a totally different remote control with with different functions on different places , and half of the functions a are removed , or whatever . Uh , so I think what we need is is a clear uh remote control with uh grouped buttons , you know . All th all the buttons which apply to the text functions in in one uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Different functions of of uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well , one area or whatever , not like the button to enter text on top of the remote control and the button to um , yeah , to minimise it to this this {vocalsound} {disfmarker} or whatever o o other functions {vocalsound} totally somewhere else .
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah .
Marketing: I think we should group them .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: And same for the for the volume buttons and the the t
Project Manager: And uh , is it gonna be a remote control that's um {disfmarker} what it can be used for different kind of equipment , like your T_V_ and your home stereo ?
Marketing: Well I was I was thinking uh since a T_V_ is uh mostly used together with a V_C_R_ or D_V_D_ player or recorder , and not with a stereo , I think it should be good to include functions for V_C_R_s and D_V_D_ players , recorders .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . But uh , the D_V_D_ players and home cinema sets often double as stereo hi-fi sets probably .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: It's what , from my experience .
User Interface: But isn't it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: I don't know . Hi-fi set is uh not often used uh as I know of in combination with television .
Project Manager: Okay . But we gonna {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's only for television , I thought . Not {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes .
Project Manager: Oh , it is only for televis
User Interface: {gap} I thought it was only for television . So so we probably don't have to have to uh have the functions for D_V_D_ player or V_C_R_ .
Marketing: Yes , it is only for television , but uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So wha what {disfmarker} What wha {vocalsound} what uh what document {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well {disfmarker} well we we're gonna brainstorm about that . If we think it's useful , we do it .
Project Manager: But , where where did it uh {disfmarker} Where did you find that ?
User Interface: Uh , in the email .
Project Manager: Oh , okay .
User Interface: I thought it said uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's right . It's a television remote control .
User Interface: Yeah , television remote control .
Industrial Designer: Yes , {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: But I was thinking since it is useful with D_V_D_ {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but most television remote controls support other functions as well . So we can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes , that's uh something extras .
Project Manager: No , we have to think about that .
User Interface: True . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , uh but uh we've gonna put some a uh is is it so user-friendliness , is a is a pri priority in this case , or {disfmarker}
User Interface: True .
Marketing: Yep .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , also no one's gonna buy it .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah . True .
Industrial Designer: Only the experts . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I guess .
Project Manager: Well , this the maybe is uh some aspect of the {disfmarker} uh , or or some point at at which we can excel by making it very useful .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: That w Well , then you're you're the usability uh man , so this uh gonna be a very important task for you then .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh my God . Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Well , other ideas ? How can we make it trendy or something ? Do uh by just sh shape and the look of it ?
Industrial Designer: Uh , to go with to go with fashion and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Maybe a can opener underneath it ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} For the bear . Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I don't know . Or someth something special , like uh M_P_ three player inside of it , or uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: I I uh , no I think it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh , well then the production costs are gonna be too high probably .
User Interface: Uh , I th I think yo we have to keep it simple , to get a whole market .
Marketing: Yeah , way too high . Yep .
Project Manager: Okay . Maybe with different type of fronts or uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's international , so we have to use a standard .
Project Manager: Well , m has to be something {vocalsound} spectacular or uh one which makes it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well that's an idea of course , yeah .
Project Manager: We gonna skip back to the goals probably . Uh ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: original , trendly , and user-friendly {disfmarker} Well , we al also already talked about user-friendliness .
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: No , well something trendy and original , well that that goes hand in hand I guess . When something is original , it tends to be trendy , probably ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: or we should make it combination of that . 'Kay , so you {vocalsound} {disfmarker} the um technical part of the process is something you're gonna look after for , so you have to think about what kind of uh equipment you want to uh , you know , you want to manage with it . Well , and that's an important part for you then , with gogors regards to the user-friendly part of it .
User Interface: Use friendly . Yep .
Project Manager: Well , and you uh should look out for what makes it trendy . {vocalsound} Well , you know , y like some special feature . Or some {disfmarker} {gap} Does it does it gets some gadgetness or something .
Marketing: Yeah . Yes , what the market wishes .
Project Manager: Okay . Well , the closing . Next meeting starts in thirty minutes . Individual , I think so . The the Industrial Designer will w or the working design , of course , we will uh {disfmarker} Already s said that . The User Interface Designer {vocalsound} {disfmarker} is it a User Inter User Interface {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah , yeah . Interface d
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: the technical functions design . And the Management Expert of uh {disfmarker} the Marketing Expert . User requirements specifi Well , this one was already clear to us . Specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach . I don't know how much time we have left .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh , not many I guess . We started at twelve .
Marketing: You just got a message .
Project Manager: Oh , and what does it said ?
Marketing: And it said uh five minutes , so we got four and a half .
User Interface: Oh , I don't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: W Okay , well um {disfmarker}
User Interface: I didn't get a message .
Marketing: No . He's the whatever .
User Interface: Oh , the Project Manager .
Industrial Designer: Team Leader . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No , we're uh ahead of schedule then .
Marketing: Team Leader . {vocalsound} He is the whatever . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , close it . I'm gonna make some minutes or take some minutes . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes .
Project Manager: And uh it's it's clear you can put the stuff in the project documents presentations .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: You can all {disfmarker} Or we're all uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Project joc project documents is for showing uh on the white-board .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah , but we're all familiar with uh uh Microsoft PowerPoint , are we ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: I'm gonna wri uh write some stuff down
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: and then we're ready .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Or we can leave already {gap} I guess .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: {gap} or uh or sh or should we uh {disfmarker} or is important that we leave at exact uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: No . I don't think so .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I don't think {disfmarker} Oh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes ?
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Marketing: Great .
Project Manager: We'll see each other in uh thirty minutes .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Good luck .
Project Manager: Yeah , good luck .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I will need it . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I will need it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
| |
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User Interface: Oops .
Project Manager: So , hello everyone . {vocalsound} We're here to have a kick-off meeting for the design of a {disfmarker} f for the beginning of new project um {vocalsound} uh remote control for the design for a new remote control {vocalsound} . I'm the Project Manager Christa Pavlov and {vocalsound} okay let's begin . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So I'm first going to do an opening then we get used to one anothers and we speak about this tool we're going to design and try to make a project plan , some discussion and then we talk of uh the next meeting . So um we want to to do a new remote control . It has to be original , trendy and user friendly .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um I think the important points we have to t talk about are uh it's functional design , it's conceptual design , and desail detailed design . {gap} and for that we're going um all to work individually and then have meeting during the whole day . Um , so {vocalsound} let's try the whiteboard {vocalsound} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Wow . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um so any of you who want to go .
User Interface: Yeah , for favourite animals .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's gonna be not my favourite one but the one I can draw .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} And it's gonna be {disfmarker} you'll try to guess .
Marketing: Wow . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Complex .
Project Manager: Wow . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Huh ? A cat .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No . Darn . {vocalsound} Uh .
Project Manager: A rabbit .
User Interface: Yes , that's a rabbit .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} A rabbit .
User Interface: That's my favourite one .
Marketing: A what ?
Industrial Designer: Rabbit .
Marketing: A r a rabbit , oh oh yeah , where is the carrot ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's it .
Marketing: Okay {vocalsound} mm-hmm .
Project Manager: You want to go ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I am not very good at uh {vocalsound} this kind of stuff .
User Interface: Hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: My favourite animal is {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You wa
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wow . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: A human
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Guess .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} ah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} A human , yay . It's a very complex animal {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No .
Marketing: and um {disfmarker} yeah . Characteristics of this this animal is {vocalsound} dangerous . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm I think you're supposed to , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Is the white {disfmarker} okay .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: I guess you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wow . That's cobra .
Marketing: Ah , a kind of uh snake ? Cobra ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah uh not really .
Marketing: Exactly {vocalsound} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Small cobra . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No , it just {disfmarker} small cobra , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Is that a worm ? Or {vocalsound} {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh-huh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's co c quite recognisable . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} What about you uh {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh yeah Christa Pavlov {vocalsound} Mm .
Marketing: Christa ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Christa {vocalsound} Christa .
Industrial Designer: Chris . {vocalsound}
Marketing: A fish . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: Smiling fish {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Smile fish . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: A smiling fish . {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So , w whiteboard is working ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Good . {vocalsound} Next . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Next . Let's talk about money .
User Interface: Just tr try to guess who is a User Interface Designer .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , well . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} According to the drawings .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , you're {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Not me . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So .
Marketing: So . Twenty five Euro for a remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah , mm that's the price we want to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: that's the aim for the price for the remote control .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: We aim to do {vocalsound} this profit . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} On the international market .
Marketing: {vocalsound} 'tis big number .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we're to sell two million then .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wow .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm {vocalsound} for a production cost of mm twelve fifty Euros maximum . {vocalsound} 'Kay {vocalsound} . So any of you have experience in remote controls ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah .
Marketing: Uh yes , we have plenty at home .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} In fact , my daughter likes l {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} remote controls .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm . To eat ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: To eat ? Yeah , mainly , and to break . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So that could be a great um {vocalsound} application .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Remote controls children proof . Mm mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
User Interface: Children proof .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Ye ye yeah .
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: So she likes uh buttons {vocalsound} which make click ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , pret
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: so {vocalsound} it has to click .
Project Manager: So they have to be waterproof maybe ?
Marketing: It has to be uh wha {vocalsound} baby proof {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Cause they eat {disfmarker} she ate it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: yeah {vocalsound} but mainly it has to be very robust
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: because even if she's not very tall she's uh {vocalsound} high enough so that uh when she throw it away it's uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ah .
Marketing: So it has to be very robust .
User Interface: Okay , unbreakable .
Marketing: Unbreakable , yeah .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we have some child lock or something , yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: And uh {vocalsound} it has to be nice looking ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: colourful , maybe {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Colourful , yeah mm .
User Interface: Colourful ? That's not practical .
Marketing: colourful , because uh nobody has colourful remote control
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: No , that's a good idea .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's always black or {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: , they're always black , yeah ,
Project Manager: Mm mm-mm .
User Interface: No .
Marketing: but this one could be I dunno , purple or b
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: But how gonna {disfmarker} okay , just uh but it's uh monochrome it's n it's not like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: No ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: because you think , why not .
User Interface: Otherwise you will never find it .
Marketing: One colour .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah even we can change colours , no ? Like the uh
Marketing: Oh like the phones ,
Industrial Designer: like the phones and these things we c yeah .
Marketing: yeah , it could change colours , yeah .
User Interface: Cool .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: At least for children like one colour and {gap} . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Ch
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Good idea .
Marketing: Good .
Industrial Designer: And it should be really {gap} small and {gap} .
Project Manager: Small also ? Don't you think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Huh not so big like {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: No uh , not too much buttons or {disfmarker} mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , not too much buttons and {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Should it be , y you know these uh remote controls where um they are what they call a universal ret remote control
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: so y you can decide that now it's the remote control for the television , then it's the remote control for the the sound system , or for your refrigerator
Industrial Designer: Uh . Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} whatever {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: I dunno if it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Or if we should have a targeted re remote control .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} So colour , robustness , easy to use , size ,
Project Manager: So , I think there's {disfmarker}
Marketing: yeah , size matters , yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Colour , {vocalsound} size , sh
Project Manager: So you you think it's better if small than bigger .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , maybe at least n not bigger than this I guess . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah , but without any extremes like n not of this size , not too large . Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No , not too small , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah , at least it should hold in your hand n properly , like {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah , like a palm sized .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Just to hold it .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: But uh what would be different from this , from the others ? I dunno if {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh maybe we can change the colours that {disfmarker} at least the frame . Mm . S so then it depends {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , at least the colour would be different .
Industrial Designer: you are to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm I mean you c you can easily remove the frame {gap} .
Marketing: I think one thing important for instance in this remote control if you remember when people use it they're {disfmarker} they never find a good button in the right place .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: For some reason they they they click the off button when they want to use the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: So there's a problem in the design of that kind of remote control somehow ,
Project Manager: Mm . So , some kind of idea uh with um um {vocalsound} cellular phone with a a screen that will tell you what {disfmarker}
Marketing: I dunno {gap} .
User Interface: No ,
Project Manager: no .
User Interface: no screens , it's too complex .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound} Too expensive , yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Too expensive for twelve Euro ?
User Interface: And n maybe not too expensive ,
Project Manager: And too expensive .
User Interface: well it's not my problem , but well okay .
Marketing: Ah .
User Interface: But no screens on remote controls .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . I thought it could be only a screen {vocalsound} which would change depending on uh uh the use or even the user .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So ma I prefer to have the off button at the top right ,
Industrial Designer: Ye yeah .
Marketing: so I would have my own design of the remote control because it's in fact just a a full touch screen remote control ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: if you {disfmarker} if you like .
Industrial Designer: I mean it it's like
Marketing: I don't know if it makes sense , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} it's like two types no ? {vocalsound} people are right handed or left handed so y because I am left handed I use like this , say if you're right handed you use like this
Marketing: Yeah , for instance , mm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm mm mm .
Industrial Designer: or {disfmarker} so tha your switch on and off should be on
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: So adaptable {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah something {disfmarker}
User Interface: Adaptable . Alright , good ,
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: Maybe , if if it's possible , yeah .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm {vocalsound}
User Interface: so how many actions do we need to implement in it ?
Industrial Designer: huh .
User Interface: On off ?
Industrial Designer: Maybe I think even we can keep two switches and then we can uh only make one working .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We can adapt only one switch , suppose here like we can make two switches and if I'm left-hander I use this switch to follow the main operations .
User Interface: I mean if it's less than three uh then we can make it uh like a
Industrial Designer: Two .
Marketing: Three buttons you mean ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} like three mental states ,
Project Manager: Three option .
User Interface: yeah you know what I mean ,
Marketing: Ah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: we can just make it uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Um .
User Interface: controlled by a brain , huh ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm , yeah , sure . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Maybe if it's more , if there is a software inside
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that ask you three {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} If it {disfmarker} if we want a r universal remote control that we sa like we say before it may may need more than three mm three button , three mm possibilities , ye yeah .
User Interface: Sh sure , sure .
Marketing: Yeah , more than three actions that you may want to do at a given time .
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: But for standard actions you usually what do you do , you change channels , you adjust volume , and nothing else .
Marketing: Yeah but for instance when you change channels you can have {disfmarker} you can just go to the next one or go to channel twenty five .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: And that's already more complex to go to channel twenty five . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You do this ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Uh no .
User Interface: I usually just change channels .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Because I'm only using three or four channels but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . But they keep generally their t slash slash uh this thing and then the dash dash and then you can put {disfmarker} yeah , you can only have one bit .
Project Manager: Yeah . I change channel like this , m uh I want to go to twenty five , and then to ten , uh-huh mm yeah .
Industrial Designer: Dash .
Marketing: And then back to the one I was before ,
Project Manager: Also we can be here {disfmarker}
Marketing: so there's {disfmarker} whichever it was .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Yeah you can
Project Manager: yeah , that would be cool .
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Go back button is good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Uh uh we had that in in other countries .
User Interface: I once had it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah , the previous button is {gap} .
Project Manager: Mm {vocalsound} yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah e even the history so you could like uh undo {vocalsound} previous of the previous . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh , okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: History . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Then you can watch what your {disfmarker} ah you could also record your {disfmarker} record your {vocalsound} sequence of actions ,
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} that becomes more complex ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but you could look at what uh the other people have used there or {disfmarker} {vocalsound} remote controls .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah , what the {disfmarker} which channels the viewer {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: maybe it's a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So I think we have full of idea .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Um we're going to meet again in thirty minutes and uh I want you to mm {vocalsound} work on these ideas and try to make a uh {vocalsound} the ones , {vocalsound} make um {disfmarker} to decide what what are the ones important and what are the one that we don't want . {vocalsound} And um m maybe more in the technical parts what uh do we want to do . Um . {vocalsound} So um your personal coach will send you some instruction for for this thirty minutes .
Marketing: So what does M_E_ means ? M_E_ the user requirements ? Or that's uh that's for us ?
User Interface: Market Expert .
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Marketing {disfmarker} yeah {vocalsound} {gap} .
Marketing: Uh that's me .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh , of course {vocalsound} yeah , the user requirement specifications , uh-huh , yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} I'll think of that .
Project Manager: Mm okay . So .
Marketing: So ?
Project Manager: I think that's all .
Marketing: Meeting's over ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Great .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
Marketing: Thank you .
Project Manager: See you in thirty minutes .
User Interface: Thank you everybody .
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User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay , almost there .
Project Manager: Okay . We'll sta I'll use the PowerPoint , I guess . How was that , was that fun ?
User Interface: Mm . Very fun .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . Uh oh I've forgotten to mail you the minutes , but I will do .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Upsidaisy . {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um we {disfmarker}
Marketing: E excuse me I forgot my
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: copy . {gap}
Project Manager: Alright , okay , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: He's gonna get his pen .
User Interface: Oh right . Okay .
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} Will you guys first with your prototype um before we get to the good news ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , there's good news ?
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: we have budget problems .
Industrial Designer: Oh . Cutbacks .
Project Manager: I'm afraid you're all sacked . Oops .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't even have this on . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay , have you got a presentation to make ?
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: No , not mine yet .
Project Manager: No . Okay
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Project Manager: so it's just your your show .
Industrial Designer: Um maybe we should bring {gap} so that the camera can see {gap} . Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay . Sure .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: We made three for you .
Project Manager: Three ? Oh .
User Interface: Um one's based on the banana , one's based on the tomato
Project Manager: Tomato ? What tomato ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: and the other one is st
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't recall a tomato . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Look . Oh yeah , well yeah , we had v some red left over .
Project Manager: Ah I see , okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: So . Okay , so this is the um non to non uh no buttons one , or as mm few buttons as possible ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: mainly speak recognition . The yellow there is the um
Project Manager: Logo .
User Interface: the slogan , yeah ,
Project Manager: Okay , brilliant .
User Interface: that we need to incorporate , it's very simple . If you do need buttons , you can flip it over , and there's some there ,
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: um but mainly it's speech recognition .
Project Manager: Okay , so the buttons would be like , you know individual users , or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah and {vocalsound} yeah they might project things onto the screen which you can do on there .
Project Manager: Alright , okay .
User Interface: Mm I'm not sure about that . Um and this one is the one w more like the one w that we looked at earlier .
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , you guys can have a look at that if you want .
Project Manager: That's groovy . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Uh can I have {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well I like the feel of it , I like the feel of it .
User Interface: Yeah , sure . Um that one is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh sorry s {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh no , it's delicate .
Project Manager: At Oh dear .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: That's that's already got its stand that one . That's it stand .
Project Manager: Alright , okay .
User Interface: It does also lie flat , but that's the that yellow stand there represents the the charging stand .
Project Manager: Okay , brilliant mm .
User Interface: Um the black on the back is the slogan .
Project Manager: Okay , nice and obvious there {vocalsound} ,
User Interface: Uh yeah , that {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well , we did think of that .
Project Manager: if it's standing up , I guess , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , if it's standing up it's it's on there , but also we're gonna have the company name on the front , which is the little black kind of line in the middle .
Project Manager: Oh right , okay , brilliant . Like that from its centre .
User Interface: So um and that's the um transmit the L_E_D_ thing . These are the s two scroll ones which we thought could be channel up and down and volume up and down . We n were weren't sure about putting them there , because um i it's it kind of could get bashed .
Project Manager: Where you're , yeah , uh were you're holding it kind of {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . Well , if you hold it , you can {disfmarker} you all can hold it , is {disfmarker} it does actually feel quite ergonomic ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: if you've got small hands .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um , obviously I don't think that's real sized {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay .
User Interface: It would have to be a bit bigger .
Project Manager: Yeah , scale model , yeah .
User Interface: Okay . Um that's a speaker at the top , so you can speak into it like a little walkie-talkie as well for speak recognition .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Um and {vocalsound} um then the buttons . Yeah kind of self-explanatory , just buttons whenever you need them . Tried to keep it simple . Oh that's the charging base prongs at the bottom .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright , excellent .
User Interface: {vocalsound} We used those {gap} . And um then the big red button in the middle is the on and off one .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: It's not in the traditional place ,
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: but um it's quite an obvious place .
Project Manager: It's out of the way as well , I suppose , so . Excellent .
User Interface: So {vocalsound} there we go and and um we have the banana-based one too .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Yep . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: This one is uh , I suppose for the younger audiences .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: A a more friendly type of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , {vocalsound} so so Barney the banana {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Right , right . It's to uh induce more television watching I suppose or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ah excellent , just what we need .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Say it for the camera .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Lo Sort of Loch Ness banana . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Right , right .
Project Manager: Cool {gap} yeah . Well , nice to have uh options at least .
Industrial Designer: Yep . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: 'Kay and {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So are there any um improvements or issues or {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It won't stand .
Project Manager: Oh there are issues , oh there are issues .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Just let it lie down , it wont stand . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um main problem that we have unfortunately being finance .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh .
Project Manager: Uh , let's just enter in the um evaluation criteria .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} unfortunately the unit we are currently going to produce minus the extra scroll buttons , uh it's gonna cost us fourteen point six Euros .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Oh .
Project Manager: So we have to
Industrial Designer: What's on the uh on the left ? {gap}
Project Manager: rea Sorry , I've accidentally highlighted somehow {disfmarker} Um . {vocalsound} There we go .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Oh god , why is it doing that ?
User Interface: Ooh .
Project Manager: There we go . {vocalsound} So basically , um in order to save our two Euros um I was thinking that we could have essentially the same shape , but just have it flattened .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um .
User Interface: More like a traditional remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah , I mean it's already got a kind of cool shape , so but it wouldn't have to be curved sort of in and out .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And by doing so {disfmarker} Oh no , hold on . Doesn't save us quite as much . I don't know what's going on with this again .
Industrial Designer: W why is the uh double curved two of them ?
Project Manager: Oh , good point .
Marketing: And double curve on both sides ?
Project Manager: Um .
Marketing: Curve {vocalsound} . Yeah , this is double-curve ,
Project Manager: That's {vocalsound} sort of curve in and out .
Marketing: no ?
Industrial Designer: Is i
Marketing: This is double-curve . It {disfmarker} This one is single curve .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: 'Cause this is single curve , this is curved on both sides . So double-curve .
Project Manager: No , I think it means double curved as in um
User Interface: Like an S_ shape .
Project Manager: like uh {gap} a single curve on that bottom half , and the double curved would be if it was that similar curve upward .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay , I might be wrong though .
Marketing: Like this , one curve on this side , one curve on that side .
Project Manager: I don't think that counts as a curve , I think that's just a shape .
Marketing: Hmm . Hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: A curvature is like the {disfmarker} this case .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Maybe .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} 'Cause that's the uh the biggest expense there , right .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {gap} got two of them {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , and why why I've got it two , I don't know , I can't seem to select any more however .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Well we can work around that um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Right . No .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Cut things out . But you think it should be one .
Project Manager: It's meant to be one , yeah , I don't know why I put two in there ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: but um {disfmarker} Hold on till I find it , I think this shift button might be stuck again . No maybe the shift button's stuck in .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um okay , so that would take away three , which would give us {disfmarker}
Marketing: Should {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh that's fine .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , so we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Eleven uh eleven Euros sixty .
User Interface: Cool . Cool .
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound}
User Interface: So we could even add something .
Project Manager: We cou Oh not quite , have the scroll-wheel , unfortunately .
Industrial Designer: We should fire the accountants .
Project Manager: What ?
Industrial Designer: Fire the accountants . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ah yeah , we could add things .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Maybe if you click back in that bottom right cell , where you're starting from , and then use the arrow keys .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Does that work ?
Project Manager: Yeah , I know , that just extends it as well .
Industrial Designer: No mm {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Uh you can do one thing {gap} .
Project Manager: I don't know .
Marketing: You just select one box outsi yeah , this box . Then move it with the help of this {disfmarker} Okay .
Project Manager: It {disfmarker} One of the buttons is sticking , I don't know {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Just uh just uh {disfmarker} Okay , just a minute . Okay . No input , like this . {vocalsound} Shift . No it's not .
Project Manager: No , it's 'cause the uh the shift button's stuck , or something .
Marketing: Yeah , it's not working .
Industrial Designer: Is it the other shift button maybe ?
Marketing: Should we ask Meli
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Should we ask our technical expert Melissa ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No that's fine . Um we've worked out what it would be anyway .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Did you try both shift buttons ? It could be the other side .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Cancel . Piss off .
Industrial Designer: That's too bad .
Project Manager: Oh well , never mind . Um {vocalsound} . Right , so that's finances and I dunno what we {disfmarker} what could we reckon we could add ? Um
User Interface: Well maybe we could add something , but maybe if {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I suppose that's our that's that's our design that we've got . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: What do you th We're trying to save money , so . Yeah , if we're happy with the design there's no point in spending money , if we don't have to .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: But if there is anything you think we've missed out there , then , you know , feel free to add it . Maybe {disfmarker} I mean obviously it would be bigger so there might be more space for the the slogan on the front ,
Project Manager: Yeah yeah .
User Interface: because it's not in an ideal place right now .
Project Manager: Well that's that's uh {disfmarker} Okay , so project evaluation . We have under twelve {vocalsound} Euros fifty . Project process , how do we think that went ? Are we happy ?
Industrial Designer: Oh .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah I think we have a a winning product .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Evaluation . Oh we've been writing this up for m months .
User Interface: I think it went quite smoothly .
Project Manager: Uh room for creativity , were we happy with that ?
User Interface: W I think we were very creative .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No , I mea I think it means sort of individually .
User Interface: Oh right , okay .
Project Manager: Yes , no , maybe ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay . Groovy . So uh we're just gonna . Uh yeah , okay . Teamwork ? Leadership , sorry .
Industrial Designer: Great leadership . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Excellent leadership . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Thank you very much . You're all get you're all getting a raise . Uh teamwork . I thought went well .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , everyone got enough input , I think .
Project Manager: Uh and well means , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , we {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The technical stuff was brilliant .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Let's buy more .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh Right . Um
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} These pens are are neat though .
Project Manager: I don't know what , new ideas found , means , to be honest .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , these are new ideas , like glow-in-the-dark or something like that . We discussed all the new ideas , but of course we couldn't reach any proper goals , we couldn't use these {gap} , but we h we are using these scroll buttons like this . These are new ideas we And new shapes , everything
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: . At le {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm 'kay . Groovy .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So just general thumbs up for all of us then .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: That kind of unfortunately is too quick .
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Well um .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {vocalsound} . I suppose yeah . Um .
Industrial Designer: Uh so let's talk about our bonuses and the raises we're getting for this , right . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's it , um I think another couple of days holiday pay might be well in order for all of you .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Right , right .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Let's see if I can get this bloody thing to work .
Industrial Designer: Uh maybe we should start cleaning up the clay .
Project Manager: Whoops . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , maybe .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Does it go back in , does it ? Reusable .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Something we should get {gap} .
Project Manager: I don't know what this is but it's really really annoying .
Marketing: So {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Uh Brian , have you have you finished ?
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: Uh mine needs also this .
Project Manager: Um I have , yes .
Marketing: At last mine is also the presentation .
Project Manager: Huh ? Oh right , okay , you've got more , okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Oh , you got a presentation ,
Project Manager: Sorry uh .
User Interface: sorry .
Industrial Designer: Oh ok
Project Manager: It didn't bother to tell me that on this
Marketing: S
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: thing . Is it ? Okay .
Marketing: Uh {vocalsound} is the project evaluated , that is mine .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Doesn't tell me . {vocalsound} Oh you're doing that . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: We evaluated ourselves , we thought we were great . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh .
User Interface: Mm , love to eat that now .
Industrial Designer: Anybody {vocalsound}
User Interface: Kind of a green banana now .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Clay covered banana .
User Interface: It's {disfmarker} this as well , sorry , we forgot to mention it'll be made out of kind of a rubbery latex , new material that we've got .
Project Manager: O okay , hold on .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I've got .
Industrial Designer: {gap} blue .
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I wonder w which cell do I want . {gap}
Industrial Designer: It's fun to touch .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} So . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , I didn't realise you had that bit . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So .
User Interface: Oh could you pass the tomato please .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Sorry . Thank you .
Marketing: So now is the final evaluation , final evaluation of the uh uh of our product . How we are going to {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: means uh at what standard what standard {disfmarker} whether it meets our standards or not . How mu What rating we will give to these products . So of course this is {disfmarker} will be a team work , w we together have to decide wha what rating we will give to this product and everything . So what methodology I will tell you on what basis we are going to discuss all this .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: We will give the rating to this product based on the user requirements , whether it meets the user requirements or not , this product . Then trends , whether it is as {gap} fashion trends or not ? Means {vocalsound} because we have already stated that people do prefer fashionable things nowadays .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So this is also an important factor for our evaluation also . Then marketing strategy of the company . As we have already discussed that our company is quite {gap} in the market , not only in terms of providing quality products , not only in pro providing latest technologies , but also in terms of providing environmental s
User Interface: Sorry {gap} . Sorry ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: carry on . {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {vocalsound} but also in terms of providing environmental safe products , uh yeah like uh keeping uh keeping in mind all the safety issues . So {disfmarker} Now comes the criteria rating with seven point scale . I'm having this scale this scale ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: so we have to do it on a board .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: {gap} the user requirem I think .
Project Manager: Alright , okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: The board working again , is it ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Do we have the uh the marker for the board ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh .
User Interface: Um .
Industrial Designer: There it is .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Thank you .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: So .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So these are the three crite criterias for our evaluation of our product . First of all uh comes user requirement .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So we will see whether this product meets all user requirements or not . I I will {disfmarker} first I would like to have your views , what do you think whether it meets all user requirements or not ?
User Interface: Um {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker} Yeah , it did .
Marketing: S
User Interface: It had all the basic buttons that they needed as well as the uh new technology that people said they wanted .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Um so .
Project Manager: When the user requirement is essentially just to operate the T_V_ ,
User Interface: Does it work ?
Project Manager: so yeah ,
User Interface: Yeah . So .
Marketing: {vocalsound} So what do you think you will personally give .
Project Manager: of course we haven't actually got a working model yet .
User Interface: I would say seven .
Marketing: Seven . Uh .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Seven is good , yeah , isn't it ? I can't {disfmarker} True or false ? No sorry tr one is true .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: One , yeah .
Marketing: Uh one is {disfmarker} means highest ranking , okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: But I think highest ranking is seven , or one ?
Project Manager: No it's it's like true is one end , and false is the oth
Industrial Designer: No that's false .
Marketing: Okay , right right . So it's one for from your point of view .
User Interface: Okay , so one .
Marketing: And what do you say our Industrial Expert ?
User Interface: Yep .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh . It's hard to know . I I give it a two . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh d you can you can tell on on the like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think she has given her views on the basis of design , because she was our i Interface Expert .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: But you can give your views based on technology , whether the technology meets the requirements of the customers or not ?
Industrial Designer: Um yeah , I think i it might even exceed it um . But I guess there is a kind of a shortage of buttons .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um {gap} I'm gonna give it a two .
Marketing: Two .
Industrial Designer: Two .
Marketing: And what about uh you , Brian ?
Project Manager: Oh , I'll go for a one . {vocalsound}
Marketing: You will go for one .
Project Manager: Basic requirements but of the pro of the project .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . Uh for me personally it is everything fine , it may be having good design , it may be uh meeting all the requirements of the customers like technology-wise , price-wise , but there is one thing which limits the customers , like we are having only two , three designs , like we are having one banana design and the other one is orange ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah th {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: and
User Interface: Mm {vocalsound} yellow .
Marketing: {disfmarker} Uh yeah , lower end . And the third one is what you ge uh that is not a f fruit look .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But if a person doesn't like banana , or orange , you are limiting him .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Project Manager: Come on that was the tha {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: No , don't buy our product , because we are l we like this only .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Kay .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Marketing: So we are showing our preference for particular fruits ,
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Being fruitist . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: two or three kinds rather , and {disfmarker} Yeah . {vocalsound} So .
User Interface: Is that no is that not trends ?
Marketing: Uh no , uh personally as a Marketing Expert I don't believe that ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: because whatever companies {disfmarker} they launch their products in the shape of fruits , they give a range of products , a range of shapes , like if we see , look at the smallest thing , toffee chocolates , they give a variety of different things .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Some children like to buy banana shape , some apple shape , some even pineapple shape , some orange shape .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So you can {gap} {disfmarker} what shape a person will like .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So in this case giving only one or two choices we are lim limiting our customers . And by limiting them , we are limiting our sales , limiting our profit also .
User Interface: Uh-huh . But in electronics , I think , it's not q always quite so um {disfmarker} you don't always have so many choices as with chocolates .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think , you know , if you're going to buy a T_V_ maybe a company'll have {disfmarker} That you're going to choose from , a company'll have two or three choices , but they're different designs . We were coming up with one product .
Marketing: Uh maybe . Okay but I will I will personally {disfmarker} won't give it {gap} beyond three .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No , I mean uh {vocalsound} obviously your opinion ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm just trying to {disfmarker} Okay .
Marketing: So we can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} He's a tough cookie .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , on an average we can think three , four sevenths , maybe . Three or four ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh , no sorry ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: it should be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Six . Five or six .
User Interface: What are we doing ?
Industrial Designer: What are we doing ?
Marketing: No sorry , sorry , sorry , sorry , we are doing a very wrong thing .
User Interface: Adding them up ?
Industrial Designer: We're gonna average them ?
Marketing: Yeah , yeah , we are taking everything ,
Industrial Designer: Okay . So seven fourths .
Marketing: and that's {disfmarker} I have taken it very wrongly .
User Interface: Oh .
Marketing: Yeah uh
Industrial Designer: About one point f one point eight .
Marketing: three four four two six seven seven sev Yeah one pe exactly . So we can say one or two .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: {gap} because it is one point eight uh {gap} two , so we will do two .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh I see .
Industrial Designer: Yeah round it up to two .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay , yeah .
Industrial Designer: So trends .
Marketing: So where were the trends .
Industrial Designer: Can you explain what you want us to write there ?
Marketing: Sorry ?
Industrial Designer: How it {disfmarker} how conforms to the current trends ?
Marketing: Yeah , again the the fashion trends , this also like whether it it will be fashionable to have these products in the {vocalsound} uh as a fruit shape or something .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Uh .
User Interface: Well um going on uh the specifications that we had , that fruit and vegetables are quite popular , and that people like something that is good to look at and not many buttons , I would give it um , well , because it's hard to make a fruit good to look at , that that looks cool , you know ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so I would actually give it a three .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Tha three or four , I'm not sure .
Marketing: Okay . Yeah .
User Interface: Three . Go for three . That's fine .
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: 'Kay . As far as the uh technology it its' got the latest trends in speech technology , but it's missing the screen , as we said , um but it does have the push-buttons , or the scroll-buttons , um but it doesn't have that fancy solar power or the the vibrating energy mechanism . So I give it a a four . I'd give it a kinda middle of the road for
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: for technology .
Project Manager: Yeah , I am sort of pret uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Just the fruit does me in , I mean uh it might
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it might be trendy to some , but I'm just not swallowing the fruit , so um {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh also uh I would have liked to have seen the L_C_D_ screen in it . Um so yeah I'd say about four as well .
Marketing: Okay . Uh personally I wi uh I think that in terms of trends , these products are quite good , like , these products are in fruit shape , because that wha people now {disfmarker} our fashion trend shows that people like everything {disfmarker} all f everything that is being advertised , like clothes , shoes , and everything is being advertised in the form of fruits and vegetables , or getting them {gap} or showing some association with them .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So and in this way our product is good . And the second thing , now people don't want any complicated or bulky products and ours is quite simple and quite handy .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So that is also ef that also {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Our product meets the f the fashion uh trends of the market . And yes . It is cus spongy also . So they can play with it , it's quite good .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So then I think , maybe I can give it two . So four five ten thirteen thirteen {gap} . So we can {disfmarker} Is it fine ? So what about company strategy ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: Um .
Industrial Designer: Well it was yellow . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , the company strategy , okay . Um {vocalsound} there was lot of discussing , that was good . Um I feel I got my say . Um so I'd give the company strategy a {vocalsound} two .
Industrial Designer: Well , I think it's the the remote control conforms to the the company strategy .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Is that the question ?
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Is it ? Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um .
User Interface: Okay , so {vocalsound} one or two .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: One . Okay , just leave it , it's fine .
Industrial Designer: I'll go with two .
Marketing: So what about you , Brian ?
Project Manager: Um yeah , a three . Pretty much kept to the company strategy , so I would go for a {disfmarker} a one , as we not only kept it , but we were limited by {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah , and me also , like , this product me uh me uh me uh this meets all company strategy like our product should be as per customers' requirement , as per latest technology , and it should be environmental safe . So since our product meets all these requirements , so I would also prefer to give it rank one . So four six six
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So one and a half .
Marketing: half .
User Interface: Yeah , one .
Marketing: So we can say two or one {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: A two . {gap}
Marketing: Okay . So th seven seven . Uh overall we are getting two {gap} something , but we can round it as two .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Yeah . So I think overall uh evaluation of our product is quite good .
Project Manager: Cool , groovy . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: S
Marketing: So we can launch it . Yeah .
Project Manager: Cool . Brilliant . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Woo-hoo .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} In which case we are done . 'Cause we've evaluated and we are within budget . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: Cool .
Marketing: So
Project Manager: Champagne lunch anyone ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: yeah . {vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh .
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Professor A: We 're going ? OK . Sh - Close your door on {disfmarker} door on the way out ?
Grad B: OK . Thanks .
Professor A: Thanks .
Grad B: Oh .
Professor A: Yeah . Probably wanna get this other door , too . OK . So . Um . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} What are we talking about today ?
PhD E: Uh , well , first there are perhaps these uh Meeting Recorder digits that we tested .
Professor A: Oh , yeah . That was kind of uh interesting .
PhD E: So .
Professor A: The {disfmarker} both the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the SRI System and the oth
PhD E: Um .
Professor A: And for one thing that {disfmarker} that sure shows the {vocalsound} difference between having a lot of uh training data {vocalsound} or not ,
PhD E: Of data ? Yeah .
Professor A: uh , the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The best kind of number we have on the English uh {disfmarker} on near microphone only is {disfmarker} is uh three or four percent .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And uh it 's significantly better than that , using fairly simple front - ends {vocalsound} on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , with the SRI system .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: So I th I think that the uh {disfmarker} But that 's {disfmarker} that 's using uh a {disfmarker} a pretty huge amount of data , mostly not digits , of course , but {disfmarker} but then again {disfmarker} Well , yeah . In fact , mostly not digits for the actual training the H M Ms whereas uh in this case we 're just using digits for training the H M
PhD E: Yeah . Right .
Professor A: Did anybody mention about whether the {disfmarker} the SRI system is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} is {disfmarker} is doing the digits um the wor as a word model or as uh a sub s sub - phone states ?
PhD E: I guess it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh allophone models ,
Professor A: Yeah . Probably .
PhD E: so , well {disfmarker}
Professor A: Huh ?
PhD E: Yeah . I think so , because it 's their very d huge , their huge system .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD E: And . But . So . There is one difference {disfmarker} Well , the SRI system {disfmarker} the result for the SRI system that are represented here are with adaptation . So there is {disfmarker} It 's their complete system and {disfmarker} including on - line uh unsupervised adaptation .
Professor A: That 's true .
PhD E: And if you don't use adaptation , the error rate is around fifty percent worse , I think , if I remember .
Professor A: OK .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: It 's tha it 's that much , huh ?
PhD E: Nnn . It 's {disfmarker} Yeah . It 's quite significant .
Professor A: Oh . OK .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: Still .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: But {disfmarker} but uh what {disfmarker} what I think I 'd be interested to do given that , is that we {disfmarker} we should uh {vocalsound} take {disfmarker} I guess that somebody 's gonna do this , right ? {disfmarker} is to take some of these tandem things and feed it into the SRI system , right ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD E: We can do something like that .
Professor A: Yeah . Because {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah . But {disfmarker} But I guess the main point is the data because uh {vocalsound} I am not sure . Our back - end is {disfmarker} is fairly simple but until now , well , the attempts to improve it or {disfmarker} have fail Ah , well , I mean uh what Chuck tried to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to do
Professor A: Yeah , but he 's doing it with the same data , right ? I mean so to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's two things being affected .
PhD E: Yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor A: I mean . One is that {disfmarker} that , you know , there 's something simple that 's wrong with the back - end . We 've been playing a number of states
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: uh I {disfmarker} I don't know if he got to the point of playing with the uh number of Gaussians yet
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: but {disfmarker} but uh , uh , you know . But , yeah , so far he hadn't gotten any big improvement ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: but that 's all with the same amount of data which is pretty small .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: And um .
PhD E: Mmm . So , yeah , we could retrain some of these tandem on {disfmarker} on huge {disfmarker}
Professor A: Well , you could do that , but I 'm saying even with it not {disfmarker} with that part not retrained , just {disfmarker} just using {disfmarker} having the H M Ms {disfmarker} much better H M
PhD E: Ah , yeah . Just {disfmarker} f for the HMM models .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Um . {vocalsound} But just train those H M Ms using different features , the features coming from our Aurora stuff .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: So .
PhD E: Yeah . But {vocalsound} what would be interesting to see also is what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} perhaps it 's not related , the amount of data but the um recording conditions . I don't know . Because {vocalsound} it 's probably not a problem of noise , because our features are supposed to be robust to noise .
Professor A: Well , yeah .
PhD E: It 's not a problem of channel , because there is um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} normalization with respect to the channel . So {disfmarker}
Professor A: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry . What {disfmarker} what is the problem that you 're trying to explain ?
PhD E: The {disfmarker} the fact that {disfmarker} the result with the tandem and Aurora system are {vocalsound} uh so much worse .
Professor A: That the {disfmarker} Oh . So much worse ? Oh .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: I uh but I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm almost certain that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean , that it has to do with the um amount of training data .
PhD E: It {disfmarker}
Professor A: It {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's orders of magnitude off .
PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah but we train only on digits and it 's {disfmarker} it 's a digit task , so . Well .
Professor A: But {disfmarker} but having a huge {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you look at what commercial places do , they use a huge amount of data .
PhD E: It {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .
Professor A: This is a modest amount of data .
PhD E: Alright . Yeah .
Professor A: So . {vocalsound} I mean , ordinarily you would say " well , given that you have enough occurrences of the digits , you can just train with digits rather than with , you know " {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor A: But the thing is , if you have a huge {disfmarker} in other words , do word models {disfmarker} But if you have a huge amount of data then you 're going to have many occurrences of similar uh allophones .
PhD E: Right . Mmm .
Professor A: And that 's just a huge amount of training for it .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: So it 's {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think it has to be that , because , as you say , this is , you know , this is near - microphone ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: it 's really pretty clean data .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Um . Now , some of it could be the fact that uh {disfmarker} let 's see , in the {disfmarker} in these multi - train things did we include noisy data in the training ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: I mean , that could be hurting us actually , for the clean case .
PhD E: Yeah . Well , actually we see that the clean train for the Aurora proposals are {disfmarker} are better than the multi - train ,
Professor A: It is if {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD E: yeah .
Professor A: Yeah . Cuz this is clean data , and so that 's not too surprising .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: But um . Uh . So .
PhD E: Well , o I guess what I meant is that well , let 's say if we {disfmarker} if we add enough data to train on the um on the Meeting Recorder digits , I guess we could have better results than this .
Professor A: Uh - huh . Mm - hmm .
PhD E: And . What I meant is that perhaps we can learn something uh from this , what 's {disfmarker} what 's wrong uh what {disfmarker} what is different between TI - digits and these digits and {disfmarker}
Professor A: What kind of numbers are we getting on TI - digits ?
PhD E: It 's point eight percent , so .
Professor A: Oh . I see .
PhD E: Four - Fourier .
Professor A: So in the actual TI - digits database we 're getting point eight percent ,
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor A: and here we 're getting three or four {disfmarker} three , let 's see , three for this ?
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Yeah . Sure , but I mean , um point eight percent is something like double uh or triple what people have gotten who 've worked very hard at doing that .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And {disfmarker} and also , as you point out , there 's adaptation in these numbers also . So if you , you know , put the ad adap take the adaptation off , then it {disfmarker} for the English - Near you get something like two percent .
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor A: And here you had , you know , something like three point four . And I could easily see that difference coming from this huge amount of data that it was trained on .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: So it 's {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: You know , I don't think there 's anything magical here .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: It 's , you know , we used a simple HTK system with a modest amount of data . And this is a {disfmarker} a , you know , modern {vocalsound} uh system uh has {disfmarker} has a lot of nice points to it .
PhD E: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Um . So . I mean , the HTK is an older HTK , even . So . Yeah it {disfmarker} it 's not that surprising .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: But to me it just {disfmarker} it just meant a practical {vocalsound} point that um if we want to {vocalsound} publish results on digits that {disfmarker} that people pay {vocalsound} attention to we probably should uh {disfmarker} Cuz we 've had the problem before that you get {disfmarker} show some {vocalsound} nice improvement on something that 's {disfmarker} that 's uh , uh {disfmarker} it seems like too large a number , and uh {vocalsound} uh people don't necessarily take it so seriously .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Um . Yeah . Yeah . So the three point four percent for this uh is {disfmarker} is uh {disfmarker} So why is it {disfmarker} It 's an interesting question though , still . Why is {disfmarker} why is it three point four percent for the d the digits recorded in this environment as opposed to {vocalsound} the uh point eight percent for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for the original TI - digits database ? Um .
PhD E: Yeah . th that 's {disfmarker} th that 's my point
Professor A: Given {disfmarker} given the same {disfmarker} Yeah . So ignore {disfmarker} ignoring the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the SRI system for a moment ,
PhD E: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't I {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .
Professor A: just looking at {vocalsound} the TI - di the uh tandem system , if we 're getting point eight percent , which , yes , it 's high . It 's , you know , it {disfmarker} it 's not awfully high ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: but it 's , you know {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's high . Um . {vocalsound} Why is it {vocalsound} uh four times as high , or more ?
PhD E: Yeah , I guess .
Professor A: Right ? I mean , there 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} even though it 's close - miked there 's still {disfmarker} there really is background noise .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Um . And {vocalsound} uh I suspect when the TI - digits were recorded if somebody fumbled or said something wrong or something that they probably made them take it over .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: It was not {disfmarker} I mean there was no attempt to have it be realistic in any {disfmarker} in any sense at all .
PhD E: Well . Yeah . And acoustically , it 's q it 's {disfmarker} I listened . It 's quite different . TI - digit is {disfmarker} it 's very , very clean and it 's like studio recording
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: whereas these Meeting Recorder digits sometimes you have breath noise and Mmm .
Professor A: Right . Yeah . So I think they were {disfmarker}
PhD E: It 's {nonvocalsound} not controlled at all , I mean .
Professor A: Bless you .
Grad B: Thanks .
Professor A: I {disfmarker} Yeah . I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} So . Yes .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . But
Professor A: It 's {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's the indication it 's harder .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: Uh . {vocalsound} Yeah and again , you know , i that 's true either way . I mean so take a look at the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um , the SRI results . I mean , they 're much much better , but still you 're getting something like one point three percent for uh things that are same data as in T {disfmarker} TI - digits the same {disfmarker} same text .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Uh . And uh , I 'm sure the same {disfmarker} same system would {disfmarker} would get , you know , point {disfmarker} point three or point four or something {vocalsound} on the actual TI - digits . So this {disfmarker} I think , on both systems the {vocalsound} these digits are showing up as harder .
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor A: Um .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Which I find sort of interesting cause I think this is closer to {disfmarker} uh I mean it 's still read . But I still think it 's much closer to {disfmarker} to what {disfmarker} what people actually face , {vocalsound} um when they 're {disfmarker} they 're dealing with people saying digits over the telephone . I mean . {vocalsound} I don't think uh {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm sure they wouldn't release the numbers , but I don't think that uh {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the companies that {disfmarker} that do telephone {vocalsound} speech get anything like point four percent on their {vocalsound} digits . I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sure they get {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , for one thing people do phone up who don't have uh uh Middle America accents and it 's a we we it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's US .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: it has {disfmarker} has many people {vocalsound} {vocalsound} who sound in many different ways . So . Um . I mean . OK . That was that topic . What else we got ?
PhD E: Um .
Professor A: Did we end up giving up on {disfmarker} on , any Eurospeech submissions ,
PhD E: But {disfmarker}
Professor A: or {disfmarker} ? I know Thilo and Dan Ellis are {disfmarker} are submitting something , but uh .
PhD E: Yeah . I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess e the only thing with these {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder and , well , {disfmarker} So , I think , yeah {disfmarker} I think we basically gave up .
Professor A: Um . {vocalsound} Now , actually for the {disfmarker} for the Aur - uh
PhD E: But {disfmarker}
Professor A: we do have stuff for Aurora , right ? Because {disfmarker} because we have ano an extra month or something .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . So . Yeah , for sure we will do something for the special session .
Professor A: Yeah . Well , that 's fine . So th so {disfmarker} so we have a couple {disfmarker} a couple little things on Meeting Recorder
PhD E: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor A: and we have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We don't {disfmarker} we don't have to flood it with papers . We 're not trying to prove anything to anybody . so . That 's fine . Um . Anything else ?
PhD E: Yeah . Well . So . Perhaps the point is that we 've been working on {vocalsound} is , yeah , we have put the um the good VAD in the system and {vocalsound} it really makes a huge difference . Um . So , yeah . I think , yeah , this is perhaps one of the reason why our system was not {disfmarker} {vocalsound} not the best , because with the new VAD , it 's very {disfmarker} the results are similar to the France Telecom results and perhaps even better sometimes .
Professor A: Hmm .
Grad B: Huh .
PhD E: Um . So there is this point . Uh . The problem is that it 's very big and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} we still have to think how to {disfmarker} where to put it and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um ,
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: because it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} well , this VAD uh either some delay and we {disfmarker} if we put it on the server side , it doesn't work , because on the server side features you already have LDA applied {vocalsound} from the f from the terminal side and {vocalsound} so you accumulate the delay so the VAD should be before the LDA which means perhaps on the terminal side and then smaller {vocalsound} and
Professor A: So wha where did this good VAD come from ?
PhD E: So . It 's um from OGI . So it 's the network trained {disfmarker} it 's the network with the huge amounts on hidden {disfmarker} of hidden units , and um nine input frames compared to the VAD that was in the proposal which has a very small amount of hidden units and fewer inputs .
Professor A: This is the one they had originally ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: Oh . Yeah , but they had to {pause} get rid of it because of the space , didn't they ?
PhD E: Yeah . So . Yeah . But the abso assumption is that we will be able to make a VAD that 's small and that works fine . And . So we can {disfmarker}
Professor A: Well . So that 's a problem . Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} nnn .
Professor A: But the other thing is uh to use a different VAD entirely . I mean , uh i if {disfmarker} if there 's a {vocalsound} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know what the thinking was amongst the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the ETSI folk but um if everybody agreed sure let 's use this VAD and take that out of there {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . They just want , apparently {disfmarker} they don't want to fix the VAD because they think there is some interaction between feature extraction and {disfmarker} and VAD or frame dropping But they still {vocalsound} want to {disfmarker} just to give some um {vocalsound} requirement for this VAD because it 's {disfmarker} it will not be part of {disfmarker} they don't want it to be part of the standard .
Professor A: OK .
PhD E: So . So it must be at least uh somewhat fixed but not completely . So there just will be some requirements that are still not {disfmarker} uh not yet uh ready I think .
Professor A: Determined . I see . But I was thinking that {disfmarker} that uh {vocalsound} s " Sure , there may be some interaction ,
PhD E: Nnn .
Professor A: but I don't think we need to be stuck on using our or OGI 's {pause} VAD . We could use somebody else 's if it 's smaller or {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: You know , as long as it did the job .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: So that 's good .
PhD E: Uh . So there is this thing . There is um {disfmarker} Yeah . Uh I designed a new {disfmarker} a new filter because when I designed other filters with shorter delay from the LDA filters , {vocalsound} there was one filter with fif sixty millisecond delay and the other with ten milliseconds
Professor A: Right .
PhD E: and {vocalsound} uh Hynek suggested that both could have sixty - five sixty - s I think it 's sixty - five .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah . Both should have sixty - five because {disfmarker}
Professor A: You didn't gain anything , right ?
PhD E: Yeah . And . So I did that and uh it 's running . So , {vocalsound} let 's see what will happen . Uh but the filter is of course closer to the reference filter .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Mmm . Um . Yeah . I think {disfmarker}
Professor A: So that means logically , in principle , it should be better . So probably it 'll be worse .
PhD E: Yeah
Professor A: Or in the basic perverse nature uh of reality . Yeah . OK .
PhD E: Yeah . Sure .
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor A: OK .
PhD E: Yeah , and then we 've started to work with this of um voiced - unvoiced stuff .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: And next week I think we will {vocalsound} perhaps try to have um a new system with uh uh MSG stream also see what {disfmarker} what happens . So , something that 's similar to the proposal too , but with MSG stream .
Professor A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor A: OK .
PhD D: No , I w {vocalsound} I begin to play {vocalsound} with Matlab and to found some parameter robust for voiced - unvoiced decision . But only to play . And we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they {disfmarker} we found that maybe w is a classical parameter , the {vocalsound} sq the variance {vocalsound} between the um FFT of the signal and the small spectrum of time {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} after the um mel filter bank .
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD D: And , well , is more or less robust . Is good for clean speech . Is quite good {vocalsound} for noisy speech .
Professor A: Huh ? Mm - hmm .
PhD D: but um we must to have bigger statistic with TIMIT ,
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: and is not ready yet to use on ,
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD D: well , I don't know .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah . So , basically we wa want to look at something like the ex the ex excitation signal and {disfmarker}
Professor A: Right .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: which are the variance of it and {disfmarker}
PhD D: I have here . I have here for one signal , for one frame .
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor A: Yeah . Uh - huh .
PhD D: The {disfmarker} the mix of the two , noise and unnoise , and the signal is this . Clean , and this noise .
Professor A: Uh .
PhD D: These are the two {disfmarker} the mixed , the big signal is for clean .
Professor A: Well , I 'm s uh {disfmarker} There 's {disfmarker} None of these axes are labeled , so I don't know what this {disfmarker} What 's this axis ?
PhD D: Uh this is uh {disfmarker} this axis is {vocalsound} nnn , " frame " .
Professor A: Frame .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And what 's th what this ?
PhD D: Uh , this is uh energy , log - energy of the spectrum . Of the this is the variance , the difference {nonvocalsound} between the spectrum of the signal and FFT of each frame of the signal and this mouth spectrum of time after the f may fit for the two ,
Professor A: For this one . For the noi
PhD D: this big , to here , they are to signal . This is for clean and this is for noise .
Professor A: Oh . There 's two things on the same graph .
PhD D: Yeah . I don't know . I {disfmarker} I think that I have d another graph , but I 'm not sure .
Professor A: So w which is clean and which is noise ?
PhD E: Yeah . I think the lower one is noise .
PhD D: The lower is noise and the height is clean .
Professor A: OK . So it 's harder to distinguish
PhD D: It 's height .
Professor A: but it {disfmarker} but it g
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: with noise of course but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}
PhD D: Oh . I must to have .
Professor A: Uh .
PhD D: Pity , but I don't have two different
Professor A: And presumably when there 's a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker}
PhD E: So this should the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the t voiced portions .
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD D: Yeah , it is the height is voiced portion .
PhD E: The p the peaks should be voiced portion .
PhD D: And this is the noise portion .
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD D: And this is more or less like this . But I meant to have see @ @ two {disfmarker} two the picture .
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: This is , for example , for one frame .
Professor A: Yeah
PhD D: the {disfmarker} the spectrum of the signal . And this is the small version of the spectrum after ML mel filter bank .
Professor A: Yeah . And this is the difference ?
PhD D: And this is I don't know . This is not the different . This is trying to obtain {vocalsound} with LPC model the spectrum but using Matlab without going factor and s
Professor A: No pre - emphasis ? Yeah .
PhD D: Not pre - emphasis . Nothing .
Professor A: Yeah so it 's {disfmarker} doesn't do too well there .
PhD D: And the {disfmarker} I think that this is good . This is quite similar . this is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} this is another frame . ho how I obtained the {vocalsound} envelope , {nonvocalsound} this envelope , with the mel filter bank .
Professor A: Right . So now I wonder {disfmarker} I mean , do you want to {disfmarker} I know you want to get at something orthogonal from what you get with the smooth spectrum Um . But if you were to really try and get a voiced - unvoiced , do you {disfmarker} do you want to totally ignore that ? I mean , do you {disfmarker} do you {disfmarker} I mean , clearly a {disfmarker} a very big {disfmarker} very big cues {vocalsound} for voiced - unvoiced come from uh spectral slope and so on , right ?
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Um .
PhD E: Yeah . Well , this would be {disfmarker} this would be perhaps an additional parameter ,
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD E: simply isn't {disfmarker}
Professor A: I see .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah because when did noise clear {nonvocalsound} in these section is clear
PhD E: Uh .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: if s @ @ {nonvocalsound} val value is indicative that is a voice frame and it 's low values
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah . Well , you probably want {disfmarker} I mean , {vocalsound} certainly if {vocalsound} you want to do good voiced - unvoiced detection , you need a few features . Each {disfmarker} each feature is {vocalsound} by itself not enough . But , you know , people look at {disfmarker} at slope and {vocalsound} uh first auto - correlation coefficient , divided by power .
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor A: Or {disfmarker} or uh um there 's uh {disfmarker} I guess we prob probably don't have enough computation to do a simple pitch detector or something ? I mean with a pitch detector you could have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} have a {disfmarker} an estimate of {disfmarker} of what the {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor A: Uh . Or maybe you could you just do it going through the P FFT 's figuring out some um probable {vocalsound} um harmonic structure . Right . And {disfmarker} and uh .
PhD E: Mmm .
PhD D: you have read up and {disfmarker} you have a paper , {vocalsound} the paper that you s give me yesterday . they say that yesterday {vocalsound} they are some {nonvocalsound} problem
PhD E: Oh , yeah . But {disfmarker} Yeah , but it 's not {disfmarker} it 's , yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's another problem .
PhD D: and the {disfmarker} Is another problem .
PhD E: Yeah Um . Yeah , there is th this fact actually . If you look at this um spectrum ,
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD E: What 's this again ? Is it {vocalsound} the mel - filters ?
PhD D: Yeah like this . Of kind like this .
PhD E: Yeah . OK . So the envelope here is the output of the mel - filters
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: and what we clearly see is that in some cases , and it clearly appears here , and the {disfmarker} the harmonics are resolved by the f Well , there are still appear after mel - filtering ,
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: and it happens {vocalsound} for high pitched voice because the width of the lower frequency mel - filters {vocalsound} is sometimes even smaller than the pitch .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD E: It 's around one hundred , one hundred and fifty hertz {vocalsound} Nnn .
Professor A: Right .
PhD E: And so what happens is that this uh , add additional variability to this envelope and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} um
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD E: so we were thinking to modify the mel - spectrum to have something that {disfmarker} that 's smoother on low frequencies .
Professor A: That 's as {disfmarker} as a separate thing .
PhD E: i
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah . This is a separate thing .
Professor A: Separate thing ?
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD E: And .
Professor A: Yeah . Maybe so . Um . Yeah . So , what {disfmarker} Yeah . What I was talking about was just , starting with the FFT you could {disfmarker} you could uh do a very rough thing to estimate {disfmarker} estimate uh pitch .
PhD E: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And uh uh , given {disfmarker} you know , given that , uh {vocalsound} you could uh uh come up with some kind of estimate of how much of the low frequency energy was {disfmarker} was explained by {disfmarker} {vocalsound} by uh uh those harmonics .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Uh . It 's uh a variant on what you 're s what you 're doing . The {disfmarker} I mean , the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the mel does give a smooth thing . But as you say it 's not that smooth here . And {disfmarker} and so if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you just you know subtracted off uh your guess of the harmonics then something like this would end up with {vocalsound} quite a bit lower energy in the first fifteen hundred hertz or so and {disfmarker} and our first kilohertz , even .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And um {vocalsound} if was uh noisy , the proportion that it would go down would be if it was {disfmarker} if it was unvoiced or something .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: So you oughta be able to {vocalsound} pick out voiced segments . At least it should be another {disfmarker} another cue . So . {vocalsound} Anyway .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: OK ? That 's what 's going on . Uh . What 's up with you ?
Grad B: Um {vocalsound} our t I went to {vocalsound} talk with uh Mike Jordan this {disfmarker} this week
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: um {nonvocalsound} and uh {vocalsound} shared with him the ideas about um {vocalsound} extending the Larry Saul work and um I asked him some questions about factorial H M so like later down the line when {vocalsound} we 've come up with these {disfmarker} these feature detectors , how do we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} how do we uh {vocalsound} you know , uh model the time series that {disfmarker} that happens um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} and {vocalsound} and we talked a little bit about {vocalsound} factorial H M Ms and how {vocalsound} um when you 're doing inference {disfmarker} or w when you 're doing recognition , there 's like simple Viterbi stuff that you can do for {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for these H M and {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the great advantages that um a lot of times the factorial H M Ms don't {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} don't over - alert the problem there they have a limited number of parameters and they focus directly on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on uh the sub - problems at hand so {vocalsound} you can imagine {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} five or so parallel {vocalsound} um features um transitioning independently and then {vocalsound} at the end you {disfmarker} you uh couple these factorial H M Ms with uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with uh undirected links um based on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} based on some more data .
Professor A: Hmm .
Grad B: So he {disfmarker} he seemed {disfmarker} he seemed like really interested in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} in um {disfmarker} in this and said {disfmarker} said this is {disfmarker} this is something very do - able and can learn a lot and um yeah , I 've just been {vocalsound} continue reading um about certain things .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: um thinking of maybe using um {vocalsound} um m modulation spectrum stuff to {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} as features um also in the {disfmarker} in the sub - bands
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: because {vocalsound} it seems like {vocalsound} the modulation um spectrum tells you a lot about the intelligibility of {disfmarker} of certain um words and stuff So , um . Yeah . Just that 's about it .
Professor A: OK .
Grad C: OK . And um so I 've been looking at Avendano 's work and um uh I 'll try to write up in my next stat status report a nice description of {vocalsound} what he 's doing , but it 's {disfmarker} it 's an approach to deal with {vocalsound} reverberation or that {disfmarker} the aspect of his work that I 'm interested in the idea is that um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} normally an analysis frames are um {vocalsound} too short to encompass reverberation effects um in full . You miss most of the reverberation tail in a ten millisecond window and so {vocalsound} {vocalsound} you {disfmarker} you 'd like it to be that {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} the reverberation responses um simply convolved um in , but it 's not really with these ten millisecond frames cuz you j But if you take , say , a two millisecond {vocalsound} um window {disfmarker} I 'm sorry a two second window then in a room like this , most of the reverberation response {vocalsound} is included in the window and the {disfmarker} then it um {vocalsound} then things are l more linear . It is {disfmarker} it is more like the reverberation response is simply c convolved and um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and you can use channel normalization techniques {vocalsound} like uh in his thesis he 's assuming that the reverberation response is fixed . He just does um {vocalsound} mean subtraction , which is like removing the DC component of the modulation spectrum and {vocalsound} that 's supposed to d um deal {disfmarker} uh deal pretty well with the um reverberation and um {vocalsound} the neat thing is you can't take these two second frames and feed them to a speech recognizer um {vocalsound} so he does this {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} method training trading the um {vocalsound} the spectral resolution for time resolution {vocalsound} and um {vocalsound} come ca uh synthesizes a new representation which is with say ten second frames but a lower s um {vocalsound} frequency resolution . So I don't really know the theory . I guess it 's {disfmarker} these are called " time frequency representations " and h he 's making the {disfmarker} the time sh um finer grained and the frequency resolution um less fine grained .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: s so I 'm {disfmarker} I guess my first stab actually in continuing {vocalsound} his work is to um {vocalsound} re - implement this {disfmarker} this thing which um {vocalsound} changes the time and frequency resolutions cuz he doesn't have code for me . So that that 'll take some reading about the theory . I don't really know the theory .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Oh , and um , {vocalsound} another f first step is um , so the {disfmarker} the way I want to extend his work is make it able to deal with a time varying reverberation response um {vocalsound} and um we don't really know {vocalsound} how fast the um {disfmarker} the reverberation response is varying the Meeting Recorder data um so um {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} we have this um block least squares um imp echo canceller implementation and um {vocalsound} I want to try {vocalsound} finding {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the response , say , between a near mike and the table mike for someone using the echo canceller and looking at the echo canceller taps and then {vocalsound} see how fast that varies {vocalsound} from block to block .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: That should give an idea of how fast the reverberation response is changing .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: OK . Um . I think we 're {vocalsound} sort of done .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: So let 's read our digits and go home .
Grad C: Um . S so um y you do {disfmarker} I think you read some of the {disfmarker} the zeros as O 's and some as zeros .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad C: Is there a particular way we 're supposed to read them ?
PhD E: There are only zeros here . Well .
Professor A: No . " O " {disfmarker} " O " {disfmarker} " O " " O " {disfmarker} " O " {disfmarker} " O " and " zero " are two ways that we say that digit .
PhD E: Eee . Yeah .
Professor A: So it 's {disfmarker}
Grad B: Ha !
PhD E: But {disfmarker}
Professor A: so it 's {disfmarker} i
PhD E: Perhaps in the sheets there should be another sign for the {disfmarker} if we want to {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the guy to say " O " or
Professor A: No . I mean . I think people will do what they say .
PhD E: It 's {disfmarker}
Professor A: It 's OK .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: I mean in digit recognition we 've done before , you have {disfmarker} you have two pronunciations for that value , " O " and " zero " .
Grad C: Alright .
PhD E: OK .
Grad C: OK .
PhD E: But it 's perhaps more difficult for the people to prepare the database then , if {disfmarker} because here you only have zeros
Professor A: No , they just write {disfmarker}
PhD E: and {disfmarker} and people pronounce " O " or zero {disfmarker}
Professor A: they {disfmarker} they write down OH . or they write down ZERO a and they {disfmarker} and they each have their own pronunciation .
PhD E: Yeah but if the sh the sheet was prepared with a different sign for the " O " .
Professor A: But people wouldn't know what that wa I mean {vocalsound} there is no convention for it .
PhD E: OK . Yeah .
Professor A: See . I mean , you 'd have to tell them {vocalsound} " OK when we write this , say it tha " ,
PhD E: OK .
Professor A: you know , and you just {disfmarker} They just want people to read the digits as you ordinarily would
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor A: and {disfmarker} and people say it different ways .
PhD E: Yep .
Grad C: OK . Is this a change from the last batch of {disfmarker} of um forms ? Because in the last batch it was spelled out which one you should read .
PhD E: Yeah , it was orthographic , so .
Professor A: Yes . That 's right . It was {disfmarker} it was spelled out , and they decided they wanted to get at more the way people would really say things .
Grad C: Oh . OK .
Professor A: That 's also why they 're {disfmarker} they 're bunched together in these different groups . So {disfmarker} so it 's {disfmarker}
Grad C: OK .
Professor A: Yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} Everything 's fine .
Grad C: OK .
Professor A: OK . Actually , let me just s since {disfmarker} since you brought it up , I was just {disfmarker} it was hard not to be self - conscious about that when it {vocalsound} after we {disfmarker} since we just discussed it . But I realized that {disfmarker} that um {vocalsound} when I 'm talking on the phone , certainly , and {disfmarker} and saying these numbers , {vocalsound} I almost always say zero . And uh {disfmarker} cuz {disfmarker} because uh i it 's two syllables . It 's {disfmarker} it 's more likely they 'll understand what I said . So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's the habit I 'm in , but some people say " O " and {disfmarker}
Grad B: Yeah I normally say " O " cuz it 's easier to say .
Professor A: Yeah it 's shorter . Yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} So . {vocalsound} So uh .
Grad B: " O "
Professor A: Now , don't think about it .
Grad B: Oh , no !
Professor A: OK . We 're done .
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doc_32
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User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm uh .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} We're the first .
User Interface: Mm . We're the first ones . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Marketing Expert , yes .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So you found your spots .
Marketing: Yes .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Move to the meeting room . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Bling bling . {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Right . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Uh {vocalsound} where has my screen gone ?
Industrial Designer: Hi .
User Interface: Hello , good day . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah , we have to talk in English ,
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: huh .
User Interface: Yep .
Marketing: Yeah . My screen is gone .
Project Manager: It's called black . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh .
User Interface: Kick-off meeting , wow . It's uh looks uh nice .
Industrial Designer: I'm afraid I'm a bit slow for this stuff uh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: Hmm ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'm afraid I'm a bit too slow . {vocalsound} I don't know how much preparation you guys did ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but not a lot .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: No , it's {disfmarker} it was uh not enough .
Project Manager: You see this beautiful presentation .
Marketing: Yeah . Very nice .
Project Manager: Okay let's get started .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh I sort of prepared this .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh opening acquaintance , tool training , uh how to use the things here . Uh project plan discussion , and yeah then the rest of the meeting .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um we're supposed to develop a new remote control , that's both original , trendy and user-friendly . So ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: hope you have good ideas . I don't . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I did my best .
Project Manager: Um we're work we're working uh from top to bottom . Uh functional design ,
Industrial Designer: Not yet .
Project Manager: then we do some in individual work , then we have a meeting to discuss the results , etcetera etcetera . And at the end of the day we should have a prototype drawn up . Uh we have available the smart board and the whiteboard . Um uh we should take some practice . I have some instructions now to do that .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh well you know how to {disfmarker} the documents work . So {disfmarker} Uh this for toolbar . You see it next . Um we have a pen . And we can use this pen to perform . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Operations .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It doesn't always work . Yes .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay so you can draw .
Marketing: Draw . Alright .
Project Manager: Okay and in the format menu you can select colour and line width , etcetera etcetera . Okay ?
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Okay . Each of you can uh take some practice and you should draw an animal . Uh you should explain {disfmarker} Uh with different colours and with different pen widths .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And you should explain why you draw that particular animal .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Don't take up too much space . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , Julian .
User Interface: Um yeah .
Industrial Designer: Different pen widths , how do you do that ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh with the format menu .
Industrial Designer: Oh okay .
Project Manager: And use different colours etcetera .
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a giraffe . Yeah .
Project Manager: And {vocalsound} what's that supposed to be ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Are you serious ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Should it be one {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh yeah . {vocalsound} Oh yeah
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: four legs . Uh-huh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Giraffe's yellow . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh it needs some uh some yellow uh {disfmarker} Oh format .
Marketing: Can you use one blank sheet per drawing ? Or
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: so y you must save it at the end
Project Manager: Yeah
Marketing: and then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: you can press the next button , which is uh {disfmarker} yeah . I'll show you .
User Interface: That's some spots .
Industrial Designer: I in the file option menu .
Project Manager: Yeah . In file menu .
Marketing: Okay ,
User Interface: No .
Marketing: then m make a new one .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: How much time do we have to draw anyway ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: 'Cause I can take forever on this .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Okay . Do I have to explain uh why I chose this uh this animal ?
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think it's a it's a great animal .
Project Manager: What is it ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a it's a giraffe .
Project Manager: A giraffe okay . Yeah I see a long neck
User Interface: Yeah , that's a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's more like a dinosaur . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Okay I'll will give it an uh an eye .
Project Manager: Okay . That's nice of you .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh .
User Interface: Hey . Come on .
Marketing: Some leaf to eat . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah pretty good . Uh could you press the next uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: The next ? Yes .
Project Manager: Okay . Then uh {disfmarker} {gap} .
User Interface: Here you go . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . Thanks .
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Is this part of our a acquai or introduction to each other ?
Project Manager: Yeah sorry , introduction and get acquainted
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: That's the idea , so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh . Your line broke .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Alright .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah it's a bit slow ,
Marketing: It's not that fast .
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I see . It misses the spot .
Project Manager: {gap} pressure .
Industrial Designer: I'm guessing a turtle . No . {vocalsound} I'm kidding .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I say good guess . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Why a turtle ?
Industrial Designer: Because of its shell .
Marketing: Because it's slow . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's slow .
User Interface: 'Cause it's so
Project Manager: You were slow too
User Interface: 'cause it's green . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah I was a bit slow too .
Industrial Designer: Dude you're a good drawer .
Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh some other line uh width uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Do you have a turtle pet ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh okay .
Marketing: I dunno . {vocalsound} Does it have legs ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah sure .
Marketing: Yeah ?
Project Manager: Yeah not exactly legs but {disfmarker} More like fins
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Stumpy stuff .
Project Manager: or {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's more like a tank . Yeah that's fins
Industrial Designer: They kind of l look like mole legs . With sharp nails on .
Marketing: but I don't know where . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Some spots . Ah some eye .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it's l looks very friendly . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah that's a fr {vocalsound} friendly turtle I guess .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah well I think it's uh fair enough .
Project Manager: Yeah okay .
Industrial Designer: A little tail maybe .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right . {vocalsound} I don't know what the position is . {vocalsound} Does it have ears ?
Industrial Designer: Uh no .
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: No .
Marketing: No . Oh okay .
Industrial Designer: The little holes maybe .
Marketing: Can you erase ears
Project Manager: Yeah yeah yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: There's a a gum ,
Marketing: Yeah ? Alright .
Project Manager: gum to {gap} .
Marketing: Eraser .
Industrial Designer: And why did you choose this animal ?
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: He said it was slow .
Marketing: I dunno . I it just came into my mind . So there's no particular reason
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: I {gap} pen .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I like it . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . Well I'm {disfmarker} guess I'm done .
Project Manager: Okay . {gap}
Marketing: That's my turtle .
Project Manager: Your turn Niels .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: How to select the next or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The next
Marketing: here .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: {gap} Colours were under format
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Makes new paper .
Marketing: Here you go .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: right ? Let's see .
Project Manager: Orange .
Industrial Designer: How am I gonna do this ? Um {disfmarker} Mm uh .
User Interface: A rabbit I think .
Project Manager: Kangaroo .
User Interface: Kangaroo . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Not quite actually .
User Interface: Fox .
Marketing: A fox yeah .
Project Manager: Dog .
Marketing: Firefox .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: Cat .
Industrial Designer: Aye . {vocalsound} It's a cat .
Project Manager: It's a cat .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Not quite yet through .
Marketing: A cat who had an accident or {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Why a cat ?
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah I dunno . They're my favourite pets .
Project Manager: You have some uh ?
Industrial Designer: Uh I have colour already . Yeah I'm not so good at drawing with this kind of
Project Manager: {vocalsound} The pen ,
Industrial Designer: st Oh shit . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Excuse my language .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Sure . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't know how to draw its face . But you get the idea .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} Alright .
Industrial Designer: It's a cat . It's my favourite uh pet animal , 'cause they're cute , they're independent and cuddly , I dunno . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: That's it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Or do I need to use more colours and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} I think it's okay . You get idea
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: right ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay um
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we have a financial aspect to this project . {vocalsound} Um we can sell them at twenty five Euros . Uh the aim is to reach {disfmarker} uh uh to sell as much as fifty million Euros . Uh that's quite a big amount of money . And the production cost should be the half of the selling price . Okay
Industrial Designer: So we have to s
Project Manager: now it's time for some discussion . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap}
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: What uh what uh do you want to discuss ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We should get started .
User Interface: Yep .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh I'm taking notes . Um
Marketing: Okay . Great .
Project Manager: we each have a specific task , as I saw in my mail . I didn't know if you received the same mail .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: I guess so . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay so the um {vocalsound} uh {gap} this industrati Industrial Designer should produce a working design . Am I correct ?
Industrial Designer: True .
Project Manager: Okay . Uh the User Interface Designer should specify the technical functions . Right ? Yeah ?
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And the Marketing uh Expert should come up with user requirements .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh did any of you already do some work on this part or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well I started making an overview for myself , um what I had to do , 'cause we have three design steps and in every step I have a s specific task to perform or whatever .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So I had to uh , {vocalsound} I dunno , make an overview for myself about what I have to do ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and kind of let it work in to get ideas about well how I have to fill it .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . And do you have any ideas about the product uh so far ?
Industrial Designer: Well I started I started with the first phase , I think was the functional .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And uh let's see I had to focus on the working design , which you said .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: How does the apparatus work ? And well I basically had two points . Uh {vocalsound} according to the coffee uh machine example , I have batteries to supply energy ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and we ye use button presses to activate or deactivate certain functions on the T_V_ .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: And that's basically all I have so far .
Project Manager: Yeah I got another point . It uses infrared light to communicate the signal to the T_V_ apparatus or stereo .
User Interface: Yeah . Wireless uh {disfmarker} huh .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So that's very common .
User Interface: Uh it's uh some buttons for for the on off function . You d you already told that . And for the changing up to the {disfmarker} to all the channels and changing the volume . That are the the basic options for a remote control .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah I kept it global 'cause {vocalsound} {disfmarker} that it activates or deactivates specific functions ,
User Interface: Okay , yeah .
Industrial Designer: 'cause I wasn't thinking yet about that . I mean , you wanna ch ch flip the channel
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but you might wanna use teletext also .
User Interface: Yep .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I dunno what the word is in English . Uh {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Same I believe {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh and what did the Marketing Expert do ?
Marketing: Uh well from a marketing uh {vocalsound} perspective , um well the function des design phase uh consists out of the user requirements .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um what needs and desires are to be fulfilled ? So there are a few means to reach that um by by doing research {vocalsound} uh to see what existing products are there out in the market .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: I mean , what functions do they have .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Um especially what are their shortcomings ? Are there any new functions uh which can be added to our product ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um therefore we have to to do some internet search . For example for um well what kind of applications do current remote controls support , and what are f featur features of uh current and future televisions ?
Project Manager: Yep . Yes .
Marketing: So we can see uh what needs to be supported . Um {vocalsound} and we can interview current users and future users . What w what would they like to see uh on a new remote control ? Um especially for future users ,
Project Manager: Okay . Okay .
Marketing: uh I'm thinking of early adopters , because they they use new technology first ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and they play with a lot of tools and stuff so maybe they have some good ideas to uh to add .
Project Manager: Okay . And you can get that information ?
Marketing: I think I can get that information , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . That would be very handy .
Marketing: So {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Um but have you any idea so far as what uh the user requirements are ?
Marketing: No n not specifically .
Project Manager: No ?
Marketing: More to how to get them
Project Manager: No okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I got some uh requirements
Marketing: and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah ?
User Interface: it has uh {gap} it has to be user-friendly .
Marketing: Yeah ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Of course .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Obviously .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Uh really easy to use buttons , not not uh very small buttons , but not the the also the big big buttons , but just normal buttons . It has to be a small unit . It has to be uh {disfmarker} yeah , you can take it with you uh everywhere in in your house . So it has n has not to be l yeah , gigantic uh machine .
Project Manager: Big , mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Uh and a and a good uh zapping range . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh what do you mean by that ?
User Interface: Uh the distance uh from your television to your uh remote control has to be , uh yeah um yeah , quite a big distance .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: It has to be capable for zapping uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . From the other end of the room or something ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay um {disfmarker} Well I don't think I have anything more to add at the moment . Um I think the best is to go to work .
Industrial Designer: Whoa . Is that you
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: or {disfmarker} alright .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Any more points to discuss ?
Project Manager: Yeah . I think we can go ahead with what we have . I will summarise the things we discussed and put it in the project folder . Uh the use of the Industrial Designer can work on the working design , etcetera etcetera . And it seems you get more information by email . So {vocalsound}
Marketing: Alright .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: that was it for me .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: 'Kay . Thanks .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Are you going to put the the notes on the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , in the project folder . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . The pro okay .
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm writing very fast . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . Okay .
Project Manager: Hope it's readable .
User Interface: Yep .
Marketing: Uh .
Project Manager: Okay {vocalsound} um anything more you want to add to the discussion ?
Marketing: I guess so .
Industrial Designer: Well no I'm just a bit wondering what we're gonna do the next uh session ?
User Interface: Yeah . Do we only have to to do uh phase one , the functional design uh ?
Project Manager: Yeah . Because then we have a {disfmarker}
User Interface: After that we are going to the conceptual uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Y you do some individual work ,
Marketing: We're just working the three phases .
Project Manager: we have meeting , individual work , meeting . And at the end of the day we have a final meeting . And then I have to prepare {disfmarker} uh I have to defend our design ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so make it good . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah okay . We'll do our best .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: I depend on you .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Better make it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I am gonna work on the conceptual design already 'cause yeah it's fairly important to know what kind of components we want to put in .
Project Manager: Yeah ? If you can mix it it's okay . Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Do we {disfmarker} I mean , is it gonna be a multimedia control centre ? Do we want to be able to use the video recorder with it ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} That is my question also
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: because like new new functions {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I think that is the user requirements part .
Marketing: Requirements . Yeah .
Project Manager: As to what they want . Uh do they want all those functions on that small {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . True .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But but we need good communication about this stuff ,
Marketing: Unit .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: 'cause I have to f put the components into the design .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I would first m
Industrial Designer: So if I don't know what components to put in , it's kind of hard .
Marketing: Yeah well
Project Manager: Yeah I understand .
Marketing: I I was {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . I I think we have first to start with the basic functions and we can uh expand them .
Marketing: Yeah
Project Manager: You can always add a few {disfmarker}
Marketing: well like l li like some like some some remotes who are out there , which I know , there's one button which is very easy to switch between devices .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So you can switch to your video
Project Manager: Hmm ,
Marketing: and then the same buttons control your video .
Project Manager: the C_D_ player . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: And another function I'll think of switch to your media centre , because that's getting very popular .
Industrial Designer: Yeah so {disfmarker}
Marketing: And then use your Windows media centre {vocalsound} under your T_V_ with the same remote control . So with the switch , one single switch {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah I I know what you mean , but you'll ne need several other buttons for a video player .
Marketing: S
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: You need a play and a forw fast forward and a stop function .
Marketing: Yeah
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And you you don't need that for a T_V_ .
Marketing: records and stuff like that .
Industrial Designer: And and for a t uh teletext you need additional buttons as well ,
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: You need additional {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so I kind of need to know what we uh need .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Whatever , I'll just put my ideas in uh in here
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and then we can discuss it with the next uh meeting .
Marketing: In the project uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: We could just start with the assumption that's only for T_V_ and video . And um reserve the possibility to add other features .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: So we have a basic starting point
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: and you can always extend that so make sure it's extendible . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah it it has yeah it has to be user-friendly .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: So it's hasn't {gap} {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Th the least amount of functions possible
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: so it's easier to get to know how it works etcetera .
User Interface: Okay . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I understand . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah ? Okay and uh I'll see you again uh when the computer tells us to .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , you're di dismissed .
User Interface: Can we leave now
Marketing: Half an hour .
User Interface: or {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Thanks . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You're fired . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Not yet .
Marketing: No .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: Alright let's move on .
Project Manager: Let's see what we got to do .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} See you later .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah see you later .
User Interface: Good luck . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . Thank you .
Marketing: Well good luck . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: What the {disfmarker}
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Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies, although Dawn Bowden is running late. I'll take this opportunity to welcome Dawn formally to the committee but also to place on record our thanks to John Griffiths for his service to the committee. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is a scrutiny session with a focus on higher and further education. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Cabinet Secretary for Education, Eluned Morgan, Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning, and Huw Morris, who is the group director of skills, higher education and lifelong learning. Thank you all for your attendance this morning. If you're okay with it, we'll go straight into questions. The first questions are from Suzy Davies.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. If we can just start with teacher training and teacher training for secondary school teachers in particular, obviously there's been what looks like a trend in recent years in filling the places for secondary school training. Obviously, this is at Welsh teacher training centres. Do you think there's still a problem recruiting teachers into the 300 priority places, or is there a trend where things are getting better?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. I think, for this year's intake, although we're in touch with our providers, we're not in a position to be able to give figures for this year's intake for a couple of months. But what we have seen over recent years is that we are only recruiting to about 65 per cent of those targets. So, there is still a job of work to do to understand and to respond to those needs. So, what we're doing is first of all making sure that our ITE provision is world class, so that, actually, Welsh centres are the place to go to train to be a teacher. You'll be aware that we've recently been through an accreditation process for new ITE provision that will start in the next academic year. We have looked at financial incentives. It's not the whole answer, I think, to these issues, but it's part of a mixture of things that we need to do. You'll be aware that, for priority subjects, with graduates with the very highest levels of qualifications, those financial incentives are now £20,000 a year. We're also embarking on our first ever national ITE recruitment marketing exercise. We have initially done some work in the last year specifically targeting Welsh students in studying for priority subject degrees, e-mailing them, sending them materials to ask them to consider (1) becoming a teacher, and (2) crucially coming to do that training here in Wales. We are now part of a full national programme of ITE recruitment, giving people that idea that you can serve your nation and your community by training to be a teacher. So, there's a whole package of things we need to do. In January of this year I set up an advisory board on the recruitment and retention of teaching staff, and we are awaiting some reports from that advisory group on what they feel that we should do next.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer. I can see there's a lot of activity, but what exactly is it responding to? Presumably, some research has been done about why people don't want to become teachers so that the answers you come up with are appropriate answers. I can't believe it's just about ITE, although this is very valuable, what you're talking about. Is there something that's running through our younger learners at the moment that makes them think that teaching isn't a profession they want to go into? Is that something that's happening just in Wales or is it happening elsewhere as well?
Kirsty Williams AM: No. I think what you will find is that this isn't a uniquely Welsh issue. I think they are suffering quite acute problems across the border, which proves to me that money isn't necessarily the entire answer, because, despite higher financial incentives to join ITE courses, they're not able to do that in England either. So, that proves to me—what the research does show—that it's not money alone that will get people onto these courses. Interestingly, I don't even think it's a UK problem. Recently, as you'll be aware via my written statement, I attended the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory, which is a system-to-system conference. If you talk to education systems in different parts of the world, the one common factor that we are all grappling with is teacher recruitment and retention. In the USA, they have seen a 40 per cent drop in the number of students training to be teachers. So, in the Californian system, significant teacher shortages, and in Oregon, Washington. I met with New York state—significant teacher recruitment and retention problems in New York state, and in Finland, Australia. So, this is a common issue across the globe, really. That's why we set up the advisory group under the chairmanship of Professor John Gardner—it's to understand what the issues are exactly that are preventing people or putting people off. One of the things that we have got strong performance in, and I think this is perhaps something that we're trying to follow up on, are employment-based routes into qualified teacher status—so, those are people who are training on the job. Those remain strong. There's high demand for those places, so much so that we've increased those places to 90 last year and 90 again this year, which says to me that—there's definitely a place for the traditional, 'Take a year off, do a postgraduate certificate in education in a university for a year'—actually, that type of course suits some students but it might be preventing other people from pursuing a qualification in teaching, which is why, of course, from next year, we will have our unique part-time PGCE route into qualification. So, that allows people to perhaps combine some of their employment opportunities, so they can earn while they learn, or maybe they've got caring responsibilities that prevent them from going to do a full-time course. I think that will give us an alternative route that people can take to gain qualified teacher status and work in our schools. So, there's no one thing, I think, that we can do that will solve this issue. But it is an international issue, I agree with that.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's what I was after finding out, and, actually, what you've just said about the part-time PGCE is pretty interesting as well, because if you can bring your outside world experience into teaching, that's got to help, hasn't it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Can I just agree with you? I think that is really, really important—that we have a diversity in our teaching workforce. I think the different dynamic that brings to a school and the experience that brings to children is really, really valuable. I was up in the Deeside Sixth just last week, talking to the A-level chemistry teacher. She had been a teacher for a while, she'd gone into industry, worked in industry, and now had come back into teaching. She said that she felt that that made her a better educator and she could talk with knowledge and experience about the opportunities outside of teaching that the students in front of her could pursue. I'm very keen to increase the diversity in our teaching workforce and I'm very keen in looking at career changers, who perhaps have different life experience and work experience, coming into our teaching profession.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that. Part of that diversity, of course—it would be great if you had more people interested in qualifying to teach through the medium of Welsh. Great aspirations; the trend's going the other way. No-one can solve this in 280 characters, I get that, but can you give us some indication about why you think this is proving still such an unattractive option when it's clear that there's a policy for this country to improve the number of Welsh speakers? You'd have thought there'd be a pretty good carrot for this.
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. Again, data for recruitment for the 2018-19 cohort is not yet available and we are, as I said, keeping in touch with our ITE centres to keep a close eye on them. I think an important thing to recognise is that there is a difference between the number of people who are on courses where there is a specific designation that enables them to teach through the medium of Welsh and those people who have linguistic ability and Welsh ability but don't necessarily do a course that allows them. So, there is a difference. We do think that, for the 2016-17 cohort, there were an additional 130 qualifiers that, actually, were fluent in Welsh and who could have gone on to teach in Welsh-medium schools, didn't necessarily do a course that gave them that designation. But, clearly, we've got three academic years now to get to the targets that we've set ourselves. The evaluation of Welsh-medium provision in ITE reported at the end of last month, and the Minister and officials are busy working now to implement the recommendations of the report that was published, I think, on 28 September, to be able to move this agenda forward. Again, we've got new incentives, this year, both for people starting their course and then for teachers who complete their QTS after a year. So, we've added in new financial incentives this year to try and address some of those issues. But, clearly, these are ambitious targets and we will need to have a step change over the next three years if we're to meet them.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. Thank you for that answer. We're now talking about cohorts of students coming into PGCE and teaching degrees. If they're from Wales, they will have had Welsh as part of their education from day one, and we'll accept there are varying qualities in different parts of Wales, different attitudes towards it as well. But there isn't a single a person now who's been through Welsh education who can say they have no Welsh at all, unless they've moved into the system from, say, England very, very recently. What is being done within the teaching qualifications, including the degrees, to ensure that, at least in Welsh universities, those nascent Welsh language skills are at least kept alive, even though we're not talking necessarily about being at a level where people can teach through the medium? It's the age-old question: once the school gate closes, is that the end of their Welsh use? So, is there something—it won't be Donaldson, but in the teacher training qualifications—that is keeping this going and, hopefully, increasing the usability of the Welsh skills they have?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, in terms of how we can encourage children who have got Welsh skills as a result of their education up to 16, how they can continue to use those skills and, potentially, use them in the workplace, I'm sure Eluned will want to talk about some of the work, for instance, in other, non-teaching sectors. But, with regard to ITE, you'll be aware that, in the evaluation report, as I said, that was published, the report comes forward with two options in how we could develop an intervention programme to support Welsh language skills amongst all primary and secondary ITE entrants. So, what we'll be doing now as a result of that report is that we'll be working very closely with our ITE centres to develop and agree upon minimum provision that constitutes those skill levels within ITE provision for all teachers.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: You have your targets for 2021, in terms of numbers of teachers coming through the system, which is positive, although, clearly, the report or the review itself said that, actually, we need to double the numbers, really. But it's not just the trends that are going down; it's a cataclysmic drop, really. We've lost 24 per cent in the number of people over the last four or five years who are going into teacher training to study subjects that they could teach through the medium of Welsh. So, it's a huge turnaround that we're looking for, and I'm not getting the feeling that the level of ambition and the answers that you're giving here this morning reflect the level of action that's needed, really.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, as I tried to illustrate to Suzy, the figures on their own tell one story, but there are additional people in the system with an ability to speak Welsh and to be able to use—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: I think it's 40 per cent of those who are currently in the system who don't—
Kirsty Williams AM: —the language and skills. And if we look at qualifiers of ITE courses in Wales by degree type, actually, we see a different trend—we see numbers going up. So, there are statistics and there are statistics. Depending on which ones you look at, it's quite a complex picture. And that's why we had the evaluation report. We understand and we know and acknowledge that there is more work to be done. That's why we have got the evaluation of provision in ITE and that's why we'll be taking that ambition forward. We know what we need to do. As I said, we're not sitting back and hoping that something miraculous will change things. We are pulling levers and putting in place plans to improve that situation.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you for that. Clearly, there are statistics and there are statistics, so could you just explain to us which statistics you've used for your targets for growth over the next three years?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that comes as a result of the work done for the 2050—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Upon which baseline are you basing the increases that you're projecting?
Kirsty Williams AM: We're using the baseline of 2012-13. There has been a decline since then.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's the one I was using when I said '24 per cent reduction'.
Kirsty Williams AM: There has been a decline in those numbers. That's why, as I said, we're doing the work that we need to do to reverse that decline. In using those numbers, we also know that there are additional people in the system who are not captured in those figures and who do have the linguistic ability to use their language positively in school settings. So, what I'm saying is that that doesn't tell us the whole story, but I will be the first to admit that there is a significant job of work with our ITE providers to ensure that we will have the skilled professionals that we need to deliver on our ambitions, and I'm not hiding from that.
Eluned Morgan AM: Also, I just think it's worth saying that a lot of this is about building the confidence of those people who actually can speak Welsh, who are not teaching through the medium of Welsh, and to give them that support. First of all, we need to identify who these people are, so there is a job of work being undertaken now in terms of registration in particular—when people register, let's just make sure that we collect that kind of data.
Kirsty Williams AM: We don't even do that consistently at the moment. One of the recommendations of the report is that there is no consistent approach to understanding this baseline data and there's no consistent competency test that people start at the beginning of their course, so we need a national approach rather than leaving it to individual institutions.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Have we missed any tricks, potentially, in terms of the reforms to accrediting ITE, for example, in terms of, maybe, strengthening aspects around the Welsh language and provision in that respect?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, I don't believe so. The accreditation process, which is independent of the Government—the accreditation process demands of our ITE providers that their provision will be able to meet the goals of our curriculum. Our curriculum is very clear about the equality of the language and the ability of our children, through all stages of their education journey, to be able to be bilingual children.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, that requirement, as far you're concerned, is there.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, okay. Diolch—thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Before I turn to Hefin, can I just clarify—? In answer to Suzy Davies, you said that 65 per cent of the places in Welsh training centres had been filled. Is that 65 per cent of the priority places?
Kirsty Williams AM: Priority places.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you very much.
Kirsty Williams AM: Sixty-five per cent of the priority courses are being met.
Lynne Neagle AM: Lovely, thank you for clarifying that. Hefin.
Hefin David AM: The decision by the Education Workforce Council not to accredit the University of South Wales with the ability to deliver teacher training—what are your views and concerns about that?
Kirsty Williams AM: The process is independent of Government, and it would not be appropriate for me to comment on that, especially as I understand that there is an appeals process that may be being undertaken. What I would say is that from the very outset of our ITE reforms we have made it very clear that I expect very high standards in our ITE system, but the process is independent of this Government. I have confidence in the people who have been appointed by the EWC to undertake that process, but it is independent of me, and it's not appropriate for me to comment on that further.
Hefin David AM: I fully understand that and the need for distance for the EWC, but there'll be an impact on students and staff. Students, first of all: are you concerned that the reduction in providers might have an impact on students, and those students going through the second year at USW? Would you have concerns about that issue?
Kirsty Williams AM: In terms of the overall numbers, we will be looking to commission from those institutions that have been accredited the number of training places that our planning tool says that we need. So, in terms of an overall number of places, we will commission from those accredited units. Clearly, there will be a responsibility upon the University of South Wales to ensure that those students already in the system are able to complete their studies and their course, with the appropriate level of support and tuition to enable them to achieve their career aspirations and to graduate from that programme.
Hefin David AM: And what about the uncertainty for staff, or would you say that's an issue for the university itself?
Kirsty Williams AM: These are autonomous bodies. They have to act accordingly, in compliance with any employment law or any statutory responsibilities that they would have as an employer. That's not a matter for me; that is a matter for the institution that is an autonomous body.
Hefin David AM: But I would be surprised if you weren't keeping an eye on this, given that it has been a key provider. Are you aware of when the appeal decision will be known?
Kirsty Williams AM: My understanding is that the appeals process is ongoing, and next month, perhaps. But as I said, this is a process that is independent of Government—
Hefin David AM: But it will have an impact for what you do.
Kirsty Williams AM: It will potentially change the nature of the people from whom we commission places, but as I said, I do not have any concerns that we will not be in a position to commission the appropriate number of training places that we will need as a result of our planning.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Suzy on this—mindful of what the Minister said about it being an independent decision.
Suzy Davies AM: It's not directly about USW; it's about the geographic spread of provision. I wonder if you could just give us a snapshot of what that looks like, and whether you think—certainly for PGCE or postgrad courses, anyway—that if they're not accessible geographically and we've got students who already have three years' worth of debt, they're not going to be looking to, necessarily, live away from home for a fourth year, and may want to study nearer home. Has there been any research done on the access to these postgrad courses, about where people are coming from and whether that's had an impact on the fact that some of these places haven't been filled?
Kirsty Williams AM: Currently, with our current providers, there is a significant geographical spread. There are centres here in the south-east, there are centres in the south-west, in mid Wales, and in north Wales. Obviously, accessibility is an issue for us. We do think that, for some students, accessibility is an issue, and of course that's why we are responding with our part-time PGCE route, which actually will be location neutral, because you will be able to study that as a distance learner, and so you will be able to remain in your community and undertake that course. So, that's part of the attractiveness, I believe, of offering that to people. So, if geographical disadvantage is stopping somebody from pursuing a career aspiration to qualify as a teacher, our new part-time PGCE, as I said, will allow them to do that.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thanks, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We're going to move on now to talk about reform and reconfiguration of the post-16 education sector. Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Good morning. There are some encouraging provisional signs regarding the demand for part-time undergraduate study for the first year of Diamond, but the £12.5 million reduction Higher Education Funding Council for Wales is having to make this academic year has potentially placed the funding for part-time provision under pressure. Is there a danger that, without maintaining and growing this funding, Welsh Government will undermine the Diamond reforms and increase the cost of part-time courses?
Kirsty Williams AM: Let's be absolutely clear what this Government has done for part-time students. We are unique, Janet: unique in the UK and, I believe, unique in Europe, in the parity of the support that is available for full-time and part-time students. So, Welsh part-timers have something that they do not get if they are in England or if they're in Scotland. It's too early to have definitive figures for the impact of Diamond on the number of people who are undertaking part-time study. I don't want to get into trouble by not having that verified data, and I know Members get testy with me for anecdotal evidence, but I can tell you this: there is one provider that is reporting at this moment a 40 per cent increase in the number of students that are registered to start part-time study with them this year, as compared to last year, and that reflects really, really well, compared to the onward downward trend that we see across the border for part-time. What this means, for us as a nation, is that people are able to take this opportunity to upskill themselves and to be able to develop their qualifications and to be able to move themselves up career ladders, and I think that's such an important economic factor for us. So, rather than feeling doom and gloom about the prospects for the part-time sector, the early indications, at least, show that the Diamond reforms are leading to an increase in demand and, more importantly, an increase in uptake—students taking advantage of that system to go away and study.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Is the Welsh Government able to reassure the committee that its ambitions for the post-compulsory education and training reforms are still in line with the original Hazelkorn recommendations, and go beyond the Labour manifesto commitment of simply replacing HEFCW with a new funding body for HE and FE?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. So, you will be aware, Janet, that the agreement between myself and the First Minister that brought me into the Government and the Government's programme state very clearly about our desire to pursue the recommendations of the Hazelkorn report. I hope, by the end of this week, we will have published the responses to the technical consultation, and we will continue to move forward. And I would argue, certainly, that the reforms that we are intending to implement do go beyond just simply a body that replaces HEFCW and joins in FE. It's a much wider remit to the potential new commission. And, as I said, I believe we've had in the region of about 450 responses to the technical consultation and I'm pleased to say that there remains a consensus—we will always have some arguments about the details—but there remains a consensus on the direction of travel that we are pursuing. A summary of the consultation responses will be available to Members and will be published by the end of the week.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Is the Welsh Government still committed to introducing the PCET Bill before the end of the fifth Assembly, and are you confident this will happen?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I'm absolutely determined that we will get the PCET legislation on the floor. It's a substantial piece of work, as you've just alluded to. This goes just beyond abolishing a single body. So, it is a substantial piece of work, but I believe that we are on track to be able to do that by the end of this term. But it's a big piece of work.
Lynne Neagle AM: Llyr, on this.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Can I just pick up on that? I mean, it is going to be a big job, and, clearly, there's a strong focus on creating the commission and putting the structures in place, but, of course, one of the drivers is that we want to effect a cultural change in the way that people perceive post-16 education. This thing about parity of esteem and all that kind of agenda. And a key part of this process, therefore, is the vision that people are waiting for. When are we going to see this coming forward? Because I think we're putting structures in place, so there's a big discussion about the technical stuff, but I feel there's a bit of a vacuum in terms of the vision.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would disagree with you, Llyr, because—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Right, okay. Well, maybe you should have come to the cross-party group on further education last night.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would disagree with you because, of course, the technical consultation has followed what we had last year, which was a consultation on the vision, on what we needed to do to bring the sector together beyond just HE and FE, to the inclusion of sixth forms; work-based learning providers; apprenticeships; and bringing all of that together under one body. I believe that that gives us an opportunity to have better strategic planning; to help us prevent duplication; to help us bridge gaps that are not available for learners at the moment. It will, hopefully—. My vision is that it will promote collaboration between institutions rather than simply having the market-based process that we see in other places where there's competition rather than collaboration. I want to see it strengthen links between schools, FE and HE, strengthen links between schools and employers and business, to make sure that we've got better information and advice services so that young people know what their pathways are and can make really informed choices about what's best for them, to help them make them. So, I think: we've done the vision, we're now doing the technical consultation, that will be published by the end of the week, and we'll move forward with our overarching vision that Hazelkorn elaborated and that we are now taking forward.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you would be very concerned if FE institutions were saying that we really need to see the vision, that that's the next step, that we really need to understand the vision.
Kirsty Williams AM: But, I've met—. As I said, I was with one of our excellent FE leaders just at the end of last week; it wasn't raised with me then. I do understand that there are concerns from the FE sector about will the vision be realised. I think there's a shared understanding of the vision, but I understand and I do see some nervousness about, actually, in the end, will this just be HEFCW by another name, and, the opportunity for FE, will this be realised in this new body? We need to keep ensuring that, as we go forward and develop the policy, and as we develop, eventually, the legislation, that that parity of esteem and that true equality across all parts of the sector is realised.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you very much. Our next questions are from Michelle Brown.
Michelle Brown AM: Good morning, Cabinet Secretary; good morning, Minister. Your paper to the committee says that there's a need for more analysis and research into the outcomes for learners from different backgrounds. At the same time, Welsh universities have declared £104 million towards equality and opportunity activity for 2018. If you don't have the analysis, how can you be sure that the investment that's being made by the Welsh universities is actually going to have a positive outcome in the right places and lead to better outcomes for underrepresented groups?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, of course, that would be one of the duties of the new commission set up as a result of our post-compulsory education and training reforms that I would anticipate. The universities are required, under the Higher Education (Wales) Act 2015, to produce fee and access statements, and the £104 million that they have to take off their fees to be able to promote this work—those fee and access plans have to be signed off by the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales as being robust and truly promoting equality of opportunity. They're also there to promote access and the opportunities for people to aspire to higher education. We are looking at—. It's quite early days, still, for that new regulatory regime to come through, so we ask HEFCW, when I meet with HEFCW, about the adequacy of those plans. Equity is an important part of my approach to higher education. That's why we're introducing the Diamond reforms—so that those from the poorest backgrounds can be adequately financially supported and are not put off from going to a university. And we're also looking—. I would envisage under PCET a better mechanism of tracking destinations for learners. So, for instance, in the FE sector, we're introducing new joint monitoring for outcomes for sixth-form learners and FE learners, because we've never tracked them in the same way. So, we're introducing that now so that we can see the destinations for those two sectors, but the PCET reforms give us an opportunity to do that right across the board. Huw, is there anything else I need to add?
Huw Morris: Well, I'd just reinforce the point the Cabinet Secretary made about the fee and access plans being the vehicle through which we get universities to specify what they're going to do, and the funding council tracks that. To make sure that we're doing that in a full and appropriate manner, periodically, we ask for that system to be reviewed. I think it was in 2017 that the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods—the research arm of Cardiff University—reviewed the system and looked at how widening access was being promoted by different institutions and whether that was working in all parts of Wales. The report from that group was considered by one of the sub-committees in HEFCW and they are revising the process as a consequence. So, I think we can be confident that there are ambitious targets that are monitored, and, periodically, the system as a whole is reviewed.
Michelle Brown AM: Can you tell us what sort of research and data the universities are basing those access plans on? I assume they'll all have slightly different methods—I appreciate that—but can you give us any idea of how they actually formulate these access plans?
Huw Morris: So, there are data collected across the UK by a body called the Higher Education Statistics Agency. They produce detailed breakdowns, along with UCAS, of where applicants come from, which institutions did they study at, what courses, what their particular characteristics are, including their socioeconomic status, and that data is then analysed at a UK level and in Wales, through HEFCW and its agents, to track what's happening at different institutions at different stages, not just in terms of who's applying and who gets access, but who progresses and what happens to people once they've graduated.
Michelle Brown AM: So, there is already data there. I'm just wondering how that data that's already there differs from the research and analysis that you were talking about in your paper. They must be different, then. What specific analysis and research were you referring to in your paper?
Kirsty Williams AM: We use the HESA—. It is HESA, isn't it?
Huw Morris: Yes.
Kirsty Williams AM: That's shorthand—the HESA data, and institutions use that. We also then use WISERD and other organisations to supplement that piece of work. I think there is a challenge to some of this going forward. So, the Office for Students in England now is having some discussions about access to HESA data. This is a source of real concern to me, that Welsh institutions may not be able to have the ready access to that data because of changes the OfS may be making. So, we supplement where we think that there's value to be added in additional breakdowns, or in additional slicing of data and understanding of what is motivating people to come forward.
Huw Morris: And to give you a specific example of that as it applies in north Wales—. So, take a university like Wrexham Glyndŵr University; they have quite a large intake of mature students. The data that's collected and analysed at a UK level tends to look at people who are going into university at a young age, not a mature profile. So, some of the analysis that we do in Wales—indeed, the deliberations of the sub-committee that I spoke about earlier—is about how do we make sure that those differences in Wales are reflected in the data and reflected in the targets that are set.
Michelle Brown AM: Okay.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: Cabinet Secretary, are you in favour of more university mergers?
Kirsty Williams AM: I wouldn't use the word 'agnostic', but what I'm in favour of is a healthy, strong and sustainable HE sector. If individual institutions wish to collaborate or, indeed, go further to a formal merger then, obviously, that is a matter for them. We're not pursuing or urging a policy of mergers, but, if individual institutions feel that is of benefit to them and their students, obviously, we would have an interest in that and making sure that they were robust plans, but that's a matter for individual institutions.
Hefin David AM: But HEFCW are pushing it.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, what HEFCW are interested in is a sustainable HE sector that is strong but, as I said, I do not have a burning desire or a set policy to try and pursue mergers.
Hefin David AM: Okay. That's a little bit of a contrast with your predecessors, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that's a matter for them.
Hefin David AM: Okay. The reason I say it is because I was kind of on the inside when Cardiff Metropolitan University was under pressure from the then Minister to merge with the University of Glamorgan and Newport. It was a very difficult time for staff and, indeed, for students. You had the University and College Union and the Minister pushing it; the vice-chancellor of Cardiff Met at the time very much against it. So, do you think that it's really—? You're agnostic, but do you think perhaps it's not worth the disruption that can occur to staff and students?
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, Hefin, I have no formal policy for reconfiguration or mergers. That's not to say I don't believe in collaboration between institutions. Going back to the issue of ITE, a very interesting programme came forward from Cardiff Met and Cardiff University for their ITE provision. So, I'm all for universities and institutions working together, but there's no formal policy. These are autonomous institutions. If they see that there is an advantage—I would hope for the student first, and, if we put the student at the front of this process, then we would obviously have an interest in that and making sure that that was the right thing to do. But, certainly, there is no pressure from us as a Government to pursue an agenda of mergers.
Hefin David AM: Just to be clear, then, that's likely to be a policy for the foreseeable future as well; you're not going to change that view.
Kirsty Williams AM: I have no intentions at this stage, but 'Events, dear boy'. [Laughter.] You know, sometimes there may be a situation that I cannot foresee at this moment that would necessitate, for the benefit of students, the benefit of Wales, a merger. So, never say never, but, at this point in time, I do not foresee us changing that policy.
Lynne Neagle AM: Julie on this.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, just looking back at that time, which I remember very vividly—
Hefin David AM: So do I.
Julie Morgan AM: I had many meetings with Cardiff Met. Do you feel there has been any disadvantage to Cardiff Met because that merger didn't go ahead?
Kirsty Williams AM: I, personally, am not aware of any disadvantage to Cardiff Met, but I would recognise—I would absolutely recognise—for staff and students caught up in those deliberations and those issues, then that would have had a personal impact on them. In terms of the institution going forward, I'm not aware that they are currently struggling with any disadvantage from that discussion. And, as I said, I'm really heartened by some of the really interesting collaborative work that Cardiff Met are interested in doing, and new partnerships and new collaborations between institutions, whether that be Cardiff Uni or local colleges, and I think that's to be welcomed.
Julie Morgan AM: So, following on from what Hefin said, was it worth all the fuss?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, look, as it's turned out, we have a strong institution in Cardiff Met, and I think, rather than looking at the past, we need to look at the future. But, of course, there was some reconfiguration and we need to understand any lessons that arose out of reconfiguration, and HEFCW are currently doing some work, actually, to look at reconfiguration, the experience of reconfiguration that did happen, and were benefits realised and what are the lessons that can be learned from that process. So, they are doing a piece of work to reflect, and that will, perhaps, help inform us as we go forward.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, Hefin.
Hefin David AM: I'd just say—Julie Morgan was one of our heroes at the time, I've got to say.
Eluned Morgan AM: She always is.
Hefin David AM: And still is. If I turn that on its head and have a look at University of South Wales, one of the concerns I'm getting from former colleagues and staff is that the Newport aspect—because it was a merger between Newport and the University of Glamorgan—has been somewhat denuded by the merger, and the amount of activity in the new Newport campus and elsewhere in Newport has been reduced by the merger. Are you aware of those concerns that staff may have?
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, it's not for me to second-guess the judgment of previous Ministers who pursued—
Hefin David AM: But it's happening now, I mean.
Kirsty Williams AM: —a particular policy agenda. With regard to Newport, we are aware of concerns. Obviously, one campus closed completely, and there are concerns about the level of activity at the new campus. And we continue to discuss with the University of South Wales and the local FE college what offer is available to the local population, but also the wider contribution that that institution can make to the rest of Wales, and we continue to have conversations with both the college and the university about utilisation of the facilities in Newport and opportunities that could be made available in Newport.
Hefin David AM: That's interesting, because that's the first time I've heard it confirmed from the Government that those concerns that have been raised by former staff and colleagues in Newport are actually echoed by yourself, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, we're aware of them. We take our time to listen to people. When people raise issues with us, we take them seriously. Clearly, going back to the point that I believe Suzy made about geographical coverage, we want to make sure that FE and HE opportunities are available for people throughout Wales, and we continue to work with providers in that area to explore what can be done to enhance the opportunities.
Hefin David AM: And, from a financial point of view, they had £25 million for the merger. Are you satisfied that's value for money, and, at this point in the 10-year plan, that things are going as they should, with incomes being squeezed across the sector?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. I mean, it's difficult, isn't it, to second-guess what would have happened, what might have happened, if the merger hadn't gone ahead, around the financial stability and sustainability of an institution. How do you prove that, if that hadn't happened, something worse or something better might have happened? It's difficult to do that and to second-guess those judgments, but, as I've said, what I am interested in—. And I can't change that decision that was made by a previous Minister—it wasn't my decision—but what I can do is to ensure that any lessons learnt, any evaluation of that particular set of circumstances, can be looked at and can help inform future policy, which is why HEFCW is doing the piece of work. When that's published, you and I will be in a better position to understand whether the aspirations of that particular merger were realised, not realised, and if we were in that situation again, could we do it better next time?
Hefin David AM: Okay, so you'll reflect on that later. At this point in time, you don't have any concerns about the long-term sustainability of the University of South Wales.
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at this point.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. The Welsh Government's draft outline budget for 2019 states that it will continue to provide £20 million to further and higher education in 2019-20. Can you outline how this will be allocated between HE and FE and if conditions will be attached to the funding?
Kirsty Williams AM: Janet, you will have to wait until the end of the month, when the detailed, main expenditure group by main expenditure group lines of the budget are published, otherwise I will be stealing the finance Minister's thunder. There is a process by which the Welsh Government's budget is dealt with, and those details will emerge later on this month.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you.
Kirsty Williams AM: But can I just say on conditions—? You will be aware that there are conditions attached to Government spend, both in the FE sector and in the HE sector. Those budgets will be subject to those existing arrangements; so, for instance, in the HE sector, the remit letter to HEFCW.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Can I just pick up on funding, generally? Sorry. Because, we did talk about HEFCW and part-time funding earlier, and I'm not sure that we addressed the issue of this £12.5 million cut in a specific budget line from HEFCW, because what they've done, if I understand correctly, is that they've put four priorities into one budget line, which includes part-time teaching, and cut that budget line by £12.5 million. Are you not concerned that that'll have an impact on part-time teaching, given that it's such a success story that you're proud of?
Kirsty Williams AM: HEFCW have to take cognisance of the remit letter, but then, ultimately, they are free to allocate resources as they see fit. What will drive part-time provision is the students taking it up, and universities responding to that desire and that need within their institutions. So, at this moment, I don't have any concerns.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We're going to move on now to look at the parity of esteem between academic and vocational post-16 education. The first question is from Michelle.
Michelle Brown AM: Thank you, Chair. Welsh Government wants to achieve parity of esteem between academic and vocational education, and I think that's a very laudable aim. Higher apprenticeships are a key part of this, but Estyn's recent inspection found that only four providers from 17 were achieving good outcomes for learners. What action do you propose to take about this, to make sure that those learners have much better outcomes across the board?
Eluned Morgan AM: First of all, just to make it clear that that is very much our intention. I think we have got work to do to make sure that we do reach that parity of esteem, but let's be clear that, in relation to these higher level apprenticeships, we were concerned that, actually, we weren't doing as well, perhaps, as we should be, which is why we commissioned Estyn to look at this specifically, and what it was that we were doing well, and what we needed to improve on. One of the things that we found is that we are doing very well in relation to foundation courses in terms of attainment—we've got 83 per cent attainment levels—but if you look at that at higher level apprenticeships, then we've got 77 per cent, so what is going wrong there? But, also, it's worth underlining the fact that, actually, we're still miles ahead of England, who are only reaching levels of about 61 per cent. So, we're already doing much better than England, but we're ambitious, and we want to make sure that if we are serious about this parity of esteem, how do we get there if we're not offering the kind of quality that we'd like to see in those higher level apprenticeships? So, some of the recommendations in that report, we'll be taking up. We want to increase the number of new employers and mentors within the system. I think we're also very keen to make sure that people don't repeat learning that they've already done. That's a danger and it takes up too much time. So, there are lots of these recommendations that now we'll set in motion, and I think the important thing for us then is to understand that, in relation to who's doing well and who's not doing well in the FE sector, the bulk of where that finance goes is actually doing quite well. It's pushing some of the private sector providers where we need to actually make sure that the quality is where we want it to be, and is, very importantly, matching the needs of employers. So, we've constantly got to be looking at the courses: are they responding to the needs of the market and what employers are looking for? And that means revising the offer sometimes in terms of the courses.
Michelle Brown AM: Where are the difficulties arising—? You refer to difficulties arising with the private providers. What are those difficulties?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, some of it is about, perhaps, not giving the kind of guidance that we'd like them to give in-house. So, they're perhaps not doing the kind of on-the-job work that we'd like them to do. So, I think it's making sure that, when they're in the workplace, they are still being pushed to attain those levels. But I think it's clear that what we need to do is to also listen to what the advisory board that we've set up in relation to apprenticeships is also asking us, and we've got the Confederation of British Industry advising us on that as well.
Michelle Brown AM: Do you have a service level agreement with the private providers?
Eluned Morgan AM: Yes. I mean, the whole thing is under a tender procedure, obviously, and we will be revising that soon. There'll be a new apprenticeship procurement process that we'll be undergoing and starting to look at that process next year. So, there's an opportunity there for us to drive change in the system.
Michelle Brown AM: Would you be willing to share the targets under the SLA with the committee?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, I think the—. I can't see that there'd be a problem with that, so I'm sure we could do that, but I think the way to make people move, quite often, is through making sure that you put the finances where they need to be, and then they're likely to shift. And, so, I think, in responding to this Estyn report, we can then build that into the next framework.
Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Julie.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, thank you. Right, I wanted to ask about the investment. If we're going to get parity of esteem, we've got to, probably, get more investment in. Could you say why there isn't more investment in degree, and there doesn't seem to be any investment in Master's-level apprenticeships at universities?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, I think we've got to be careful that what happens is that the state doesn't pick up what, currently, people are prepared to pay for themselves, and, so, we've got to just make sure that that balance is right. So, what's happened in England, for example, is lots of people who were previously sitting Master of business administration courses, for example, are now switching into apprenticeship programmes. So, the system—it means that, previously, they were prepared to pay and now the state is paying or the employer's playing it in a slightly different way. So, I think we've got to just be aware about how—making sure that we don't get employers passing that responsibility that, actually, they have to upskill and to uptrain their workers and pass it back on to the state, whereas, actually, they need to step up as well as employers.
Julie Morgan AM: So, how are you going to judge that? How are you going to tell when, maybe, you should start putting some money in?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, what we are doing is we're putting money into areas where we know there are skills shortages. So, we're focusing where we want those apprenticeships—and particularly at the higher level—to be. So, for example, we're looking at ICT; we're looking at construction. There are areas where we definitely need to be focusing our attention. So, that's where we'll be prioritising our funding, and that's what we're doing already.
Kirsty Williams AM: And that's for degree-level apprenticeships, not Master's. Just degree-level apprenticeships.
Julie Morgan AM: Right, thank you. And then, in terms of getting data, could you clarify the progress on developing outcome and destination data for higher apprenticeships? Your plan seems to suggest that data won't be available until 2020-21, at the end of the programme.
Eluned Morgan AM: And that's because we're only just starting on this, and it takes a long time for people to complete an apprenticeship. So, we won't have anybody going from the higher level apprenticeship into a destination until around 2021, so there's no point in measuring that until that point.
Julie Morgan AM: Right. And then, can you tell us when you'll publish Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol's new operational plan to develop post-16 Welsh-medium provision, which was presented during July, and clarify if the plan requires additional funding?
Eluned Morgan AM: So, there is a report that was published in July, and we are waiting for the operational actions from that report to be published, probably within the next month. In terms of the implementation of that programme, some of that journey has already begun, so they're not waiting for the report to—. We're not waiting for the actions to be very clearly set out; actually, some of that work has been done. For example, already, there's been a review of the governance. We're also looking at the kind of research that needs to be done in that area. I think what's clear, and something that's very much driving me as the Welsh language Minister, is this understanding that you reach 16 and you get this fall off a cliff in terms of the number of people who actually speak and use Welsh. So, that's the thing that we need to address, and that's why moving now into that area of further education is crucial. And the report, written by Delyth Evans, did suggest that we do need to move into this area but, actually, there wasn't necessarily a need for further funding in that area. But it may be something that we will consider, but it's something that we'll try and absorb, perhaps, from within the department.
Kirsty Williams AM: A relatively modest amount of money was being made available this year to be able to kick-start some of this work, but we are mindful of the recommendations from the Evans report. So, future allocations will have to reflect the priorities within the implementation plan, and that's not just money that goes directly to y coleg, but also trying to get better alignment between other budget lines that support the Welsh language, and making sure that all budget lines that could help on this agenda are aligned to the recommendations and the implementation report.
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, on this.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. Just on coleg cenedlaethol's extended remit, have you had—? I haven't read the Evans report, but is there anything in there about the role of increased use of Welsh in adult community learning, for example? That's a further education pot, isn't it?
Eluned Morgan AM: Yes, it is, and we are very much in touch with adult community learning, and they are aware of the responsibilities they have in relation to the Welsh language. The issue, of course, with adult education, is that they have undergone some quite dramatic cuts.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, yes, I don't mean the higher education sector that's taken over responsibility for this; I'm talking about community learning, low level, just having Welsh there. And, you know, as you mentioned yourself, post 16, people stop using it, so getting it in wherever you can as part of a strategy.
Eluned Morgan AM: Yes. They're aware of that responsibility and we—
Suzy Davies AM: They're free to choose partners, then, are they, to help them deliver that?
Eluned Morgan AM: And also to work with the new organisation that we've set up to promote the learning of Welsh, in particular, that is based in Carmarthen. So, that's something also that's being driven, and they're working closely, I think, on this.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, great, thanks.
Kirsty Williams AM: There's lots of innovative practice. So, for instance, up in Wrexham, if a student has gone into the college to do A-levels, then they may decide to do those A-levels through the medium of English. But if they were previously in a Welsh-medium school, they are actively encouraged—indeed, persuaded—to do their Welsh baccalaureate through the medium of Welsh. So, they may be doing their A-levels in English, but if they've come from a Welsh-medium school, the college proactively seeks them out and makes sure that there is provision for them to do their Welsh bac qualification through the medium of Welsh, or, for instance, they are working very hard to form tutor groups. So, the tutor group—you might be doing your qualifications in English, but your tutor group will be a Welsh-medium tutor group, so that you are placed with other students who have come from Welsh-medium schools, and your tutor does all that tutor work through the medium of Welsh. So, there are other ways in which we can continue to help support children's linguistic ability, even if they have made a decision not to formally study their A-levels, for instance, or a course, through the medium of Welsh, and we're constantly looking at new ways. I think one particular aspect of the market—if we call it that word—that we're interested in are those students who've been to Welsh-medium schools, but at 16, perhaps, as I say, decide to go to a college. So, for instance, here in Cardiff, looking at childcare, and the opportunity—you know, there's a sector where we know we need a Welsh-medium workforce.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, definitely.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, again, it's trying to target those children, and track them from a previous Welsh-medium education into a college, capturing their language skills, and finding ways in which they can use them. Merthyr college—there's a Welsh-medium champion in Merthyr college actively looking for children who have come from a Welsh-medium background, and they are allocated roles as Welsh-medium champions within the college, to promote. So, there are lots of innovative ways, especially in the FE sector, that they're looking to keep children's linguistic skills relevant, and they're using them, even if they make that decision to switch the language of their tuition.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, that's encouraging to hear. My question was about community learning, where it's essentially older people who perhaps are coming back to education in a way that wasn't as formal as it was before, if I can put it like that—so we don't lose sight of them as well. I've still got an abiding worry that there's a cohort in the middle here of people who we might lose, and maybe pass on bad attitudes towards the Welsh language to their children, despite the fact that those children now have huge opportunities to absorb Welsh language skills and make the most of them.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. The next questions are from Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair. I'd like to ask about the regional skills partnership—partnerships, I should say—because they are having a direct influence now on courses and provision in FE, and with degree apprenticeships in universities as well. You, I believe, received the Graystone review back in March, so could you tell us a bit about what was in it, and what the recommendations are?
Eluned Morgan AM: So, some of the recommendations—. So, we wanted to review it because it's still relatively new. They've only been up and running about two or three years. He brought out some positives—things that we, I think, are doing well. I think they found that the voluntary partnership approach was quite effective. He did suggest that, actually, what they need to be producing is much shorter, sharper, focused reports. There was a suggestion of a lack of transparency, in terms of reporting from those regional skills partnerships, and that's obviously something now that we've undertaken to review. And there, I think, is an understanding that what we need to do now is to put in place those changes. But, on the whole, what we've done is to reinforce our commitment to the regional skills partnerships, and in particular now, through allocating £10 million to further education colleges to respond directly to the wishes and the desires of the regional skills partnerships, you can see actually the status of the regional skills partnerships has just grown significantly. Because now there is an outcome as a result of their recommendations. So, you've seen quite a dramatic shift, I think, in the respect for regional skills partnerships over the past year.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, are there any recommendations in terms of governance as well—
Eluned Morgan AM: Yes.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: —because, clearly, there may have been concerns about the way that people ended up being members of the partnerships? You touched on transparency—clearly, that's an issue as well. So, just particularly on governance—.
Eluned Morgan AM: So, on governance, I think there was an understanding that that needs to be looked at again, and that we need to get the right people around the table. And what is interesting is, I think, because it was a voluntary approach, because now people can see an outcome, we're getting different people now really showing an interest in being a part of the regional skills partnerships. So, governance is something again we're going to be addressing and following up the recommendations on in that Graystone review. Is there anything to add to that?
Huw Morris: Well, I was just going to say, I don't see why we couldn't share the review with you.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: That was going to be my next question.
Huw Morris: That might be helpful. And we are actioning the recommendations from that review.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: The normal course of action would be, of course, to have published it and then to publish a Government response. Any reason why that wasn't done? I find it quite strange that you're saying that you're actually actioning the report and you still haven't published it. As a committee, we've not been party to any of that, really.
Eluned Morgan AM: I don't see why that can't be done. There's nothing to hide here, so why wouldn't we? We're the people who commissioned the report—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: I'm the one asking the questions. [Laughter.] No, but you're right. I just find it strange. I just find it odd that that hasn't been published.
Eluned Morgan AM: Okay. Well, we'll certainly get a copy of that to you.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, okay.
Huw Morris: May I just say: we ask a number of people periodically to comment on what we do, and agencies we work with do the same. The status of those reports varies. I don't suppose we'd anticipated there would be the interest in this issue that there is and so, as the Minister said, there's no problem that I can see with that.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: And do you have a timeline in terms of by when you want to introduce some of the reforms that you're looking at now, because of this report?
Eluned Morgan AM: Some of them have already been introduced, so we're not waiting. The transparency issue that I think there was a bit of concern about—that's already been introduced. So, it's just about making sure that people understand what is going on in these regional skills partnerships. I think that's really important—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, quite, given the influence that they have now. Yes, sure. Just another short one on the regional skills partnerships, really: how effective are they in supporting the planning and delivery of Welsh-medium provision in post-16?
Eluned Morgan AM: I think there's more we can do in relation to that. But I think there are aspects where we're already changing in respect of specific sectors. So, if you think about the care sector, for example, what we do need is more people who have those skills to speak through the medium of Welsh in the care sector. And, coming back to the point that was made earlier, what we're doing now is looking at the curriculum: to what extent can we include—? You don't have to do your whole course through the medium of Welsh, but there are aspects that would be very useful. So, those kind of things are being taken on board now in terms of the courses. One of the things that the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol are looking at is building the resources that will be needed in order to mainstream those into, in particular, those front-line service areas where we have a skills shortage.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. Diolch.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Cabinet Secretary, you know that this committee has taken a very keen interest in the emotional and mental health of our young people. In the summer, the English universities Minister made an announcement about the development of a new mental health charter. That followed some concerns about young people dying by suicide across the UK. Is Welsh Government expecting Welsh universities to sign up to that charter or are you planning to work on your own?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you for raising this. I think it's really important that whilst for many, many, many young people moving away from home and starting their degree course is an incredibly exciting time and something they look forward to hugely, it can bring significant stresses with it, especially for first-year students, who, as I said, are moving away, perhaps are suddenly responsible for finances in a way they've never been responsible for, for all the day-to-day living that perhaps they've relied on other people to assist them with. So, it can be quite a stressful time. So, it is right that we look at how we can support health and well-being for students, especially mental health and mental resilience. So, I very much welcome the work on the mental health charter, and HEFCW are engaged and keeping a very close eye on what's going on to see the opportunities for Welsh universities to participate in that. But this was on a recent agenda item that I had with HEFCW, and indeed with the vice-chancellors, when I met them last week, or the week before last. So, they are developing their own strategic approach to well-being and health for students, which will be underpinned by a co-created action plan with the universities themselves on supporting students with mental health problems in particular. So, the strategic approach and the action plan are being developed by HEFCW at the moment and HEFCW are also meeting with colleagues from England and Scotland to see the opportunities for a universal approach across the UK to supporting students. The universities, when I met with them recently, all shared a commitment to do better in this particular area. One, because it's the right thing to do, but, actually, stopping people from dropping out and not completing their courses obviously is of a financial benefit to the institution. So, it's actually the right thing to do for their students, they want to do it for that reason, but, actually, there is a strong financial underpinning to ensure that students complete their studies. So, it's looking at, again, each university looking at individual approaches of how better they can do that. But it's not just responding to students who become unwell, it's actually, 'What can we do to in the campus to maintain good mental health?' So, rather than just trying to fix a problem once it's occurred, it's 'What can we do?' And you'll be aware of individual institutions taking different approaches. It's not something that we dictate, but individual institutions—when they do exams, how work is assessed and marked and graded—are taking different steps to promote well-being, as well as then responding to situations where students become unwell. We do know that financial pressures can be a source of huge stress for students, so we are constantly working with the Student Loans Company to make sure that the services that they offer to people are as good as they can be, and that there are no unnecessary delays that, perhaps, put a student under pressure or give students worries about their financial situation. And I would argue our Diamond reforms, which allow students access to a living wage—for some students, completely by a grant, for some students, a combination of grant and loan, with no expectation at all that your parents will contribute, which is not the case in other places where there is an expectation of parental contribution—that actually, hopefully, addresses some of those financial worries that some students may have. But I am aware that if people are waiting for their grant or people are waiting for their payments, that can be a source of stress. So, ensuring that we have good performance by the Student Loans Company is crucial.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And I'm sure the committee's very interested to hear the update on that. Are you able to give us any indication of timescale by which you'd expect HEFCW and the individual universities to actually have this work in place?
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not sure, but I will write to the committee and let you know. In fact, we can probably provide, from Universities Wales and from the work that's going on centrally, a list of proposals that are being undertaken.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. The next question is from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. I wanted to ask you about the pay dispute, and I know that you're not the employer, because I know that's going to be the first answer—
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right, that is the first answer. [Laughter.] Well anticipated.
Dawn Bowden AM: But we are in a stalemate here and you clearly have an interest in making sure that this dispute is resolved quickly in the interest of the students and the reputation of the colleges et cetera, et cetera. I can see how this dispute has arisen. When we've seen the teachers' pay settlement, we've seen FE settlements in England and Scotland higher than what's on the table here. And I am concerned, and I do think this is where the Welsh Government does have a role, because I am concerned that the employers seem to be using the funding issue as the reason not to have a reasonable settlement with staff. So, they've walked away from the table, they've said, 'One per cent, take it or leave it. Unless Welsh Government gives us any more money, that's the end of that.' And I'm really concerned about that, because this is potentially going to have a major impact on whether we can recruit and retain staff in FE colleges. And I look at the college in my constituency, Merthyr college—it's a tertiary college, they're providing A-level education across Merthyr and they're astounding results they've been getting as well. I'm coming round to the question in a moment. It's really: what more do you think you can do as a Government to try to get these parties back round the table and not allow the dispute to become a political football?
Eluned Morgan AM: Thanks very much for that. I think, first of all, you're absolutely right—this is about ColegauCymru's negotiation, but we are keeping a close eye on the situation. I think it's probably worth emphasising that the reason this has come about, or part of the reason, is because you've seen that pay settlement in relation to teachers' pay and we've had the consequential. So, sixth-form teachers are happy. The people actually providing the same teaching course in a different institution, you can understand why they may say, 'Something needs to change here.' The problem here is that it's about that, actually, that falls to the Welsh Government. We don't have that. Or at least it falls to FE colleges to fund that, and it's up to them to come up with that proposal. We are keeping a close eye on things. I think it's fair to say that we'll wait until they get further along down the line, but we are extremely aware of the sensitivities of the situation.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you for that, Minister. When you say you're keeping a close eye on it, have you actually had conversations with ColegauCymru? Because I note what you just said there: 'We'll keep an eye on it and wait and see what's happening.' Well, all the unions are currently consulting. One has already balloted for industrial action. We could have the other unions also balloting for industrial action. I mean, this isn't something we want in the FE sector, clearly, so is there anything more proactive that Government could actually be doing to try to bring a resolution to this dispute?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, we are listening and speaking to ColegauCymru, and also we're aware of what the unions are saying as well. So, I think that's probably as far as we can go at this point. When they come to a conclusion, and when they come to us and say, 'Look, this is the consequence and this will finish'—at this point, we have no idea where that settlement is likely to fall.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, thank you. Yes, we wouldn't expect you to make an announcement on this, because it's happening outside of Government, but there is a principle here, isn't there, in terms of pay equality between schoolteachers and FE? So, would you not wish to see a situation where we do have greater equality in that respect?
Eluned Morgan AM: In relation to teaching, I think it's fair to say that we would wish to see pay equality in relation to teaching, yes.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay, thank you. You emphasise 'in relation to teaching'—my next question is that, of course, within FE establishments you have teaching staff and non-teaching staff, and if there was to be some sort of increase, then would you not expect all staff to have that?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, let's see—that's up to ColegauCymru to negotiate and to discuss, so let's see what the outcomes are.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because some of the non-teaching staff are the lowest paid, as well, aren't they? So, you know—.
Eluned Morgan AM: Let's wait for the outcome of the negotiations. I think we are very aware of the situation. ColegauCymru are in that negotiation. We're aware of what the requests are from the trade union members, and we'll wait to see what they come up with before responding formally.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Could I just briefly as well ask about pensions, because that's coming down the line, potentially, isn't it, and the impact that's going to have on FE? One college was saying it will cost them £1 million if it happens next year. Are you thinking about any steps that you could take to support them, potentially, because obviously this is coming down the line, really, isn't it?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, I think, already, we've got the situation in relation to teachers, and again what we've seen is the consequential and the UK Government honouring that. Again, what we don't have, necessarily, is that money coming down from the UK Government for us to be able to support it in the way that we might like to. It's early days on this, but it's something, again, we're keeping an eye on.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: The fundamental question, really, is: if the money doesn't come down the line from Westminster, are you in a position to underwrite that?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, we'll wait until we see that situation arising, but we're aware that that is an issue that we're going to have to deal with in future.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Diolch.
Lynne Neagle AM: In relation to the pay dispute, it's the committee's understanding that ColegauCymru's position is that, in order to meet a pay award that is commensurate with schoolteachers, an additional 3.5 per cent or £10.1 million is needed. Are you aware of that being their position?
Eluned Morgan AM: We are aware of their position, yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The final question is from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: You will have had, Cabinet Secretary, a letter from Professor Colin Riordan on 26 September regarding essay mills, in which he refers to the other letter that was sent by him and 39 vice-chancellors regarding essay mills and the fact that it's legalised cheating. In the letter—it was actually to me—that was copied to you, he says: 'We have requested the UK Government commission the QAA to publish a draft Bill by or before the beginning of the next parliamentary session. We've also requested the Department for Education give support to the establishment of a UK centre for academic integrity, which would research, analyse and combat academic misconduct. Any support that the Welsh Government can provide in this regard will also be appreciated, so I'm copying this letter to the Cabinet Secretary for Education.' Can you just give me your opinions on that, please?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think 'legalised cheating' is a polite way of describing what goes on. My officials have been in touch with their counterparts in the UK Government to see if we can co-ordinate a UK approach, which I think is necessary. I don't think there's any merit in us trying to do this on our own; it would be pointless. I hope that we can agree a formal approach as quickly as possible, and I will take every opportunity—. We're trying to establish a meeting with the UK Minister for HE before Christmas, and I will take every opportunity that I can to ensure that we can take some very, very strong action in this regard. But it does have to be done at a UK level. I want people who attend our universities and who work hard to achieve the grades that they get not to be disadvantaged by people who look to find an easy way out and are not willing to put—. I think it undermines the individual effort of individual students who are doing the right things, as well as the integrity of our system. I'm proud of the quality of the system that we have in the Welsh HE sector, and I want that maintained. I hope that we can agree a UK approach to ending this practice.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And in addition to the specifics regarding the quality assurance agency and the proposed centre for academic integrity, let's be clear: what we're talking about it outlawing those websites that offer to write essays for cash.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And quite often, very bad ones as well. [Laughter.] My understanding is—
Hefin David AM: Well, they get through the system and they guarantee—. The websites, and I've experienced this, and I mentioned it in First Minister's questions—
Kirsty Williams AM: You did.
Hefin David AM: The websites say to you, 'Unless you tell anyone, you won't get caught', and students are believing that. The new student grant system—some of that money will go to these websites.
Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely, and, unlike you, I have no experience of this myself—
Hefin David AM: Well, I have experience of it. I've not done it, but I've experienced it. [Laughter.]
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm so old, Hefin, that such internet sites didn't exist when I was a student. [Laughter.] But, you know, I'm sure you listened to it too: a recent article, on a radio station, where, actually, it was an experiment just like you did—a student deliberately went through this process to expose, but, actually, what they got in return wasn't even very good. It was a particularly poor essay on the portrayal of women in Victorian literature, so they weren't even getting very good value for their money. [Laughter.] But, clearly, this is a terrible and abhorrent practice in our system, and, as I said, I will do everything that I can to work with colleagues across the United Kingdom to find a solution to this. If I thought it would help if we did it on our own, we could do that, but it won't help if we act unilaterally. It has to be a UK approach.
Hefin David AM: And just—final question—with regard to the representations you've made, do you feel that the UK Government is open to this course of action?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, officials are the ones who have had those direct, face-to-face conversations, rather than me. I hope to do that when I meet the Minister, hopefully before Christmas. Huw, would you like to comment?
Huw Morris: We haven't had anything formally, but I understand from what I've heard in England that there is an interest to do something. Whether that will take the form of a Bill in the timescale you've outlined, I'm not sure, but as the Minister said, we'll be exploring that with officials through the ministerial meetings.
Hefin David AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering all our questions? As usual, you'll have a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much for your time. Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education regarding eligibility criteria for free school meals. I'd like to return briefly to that when we go into private. Paper to note 2: a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill. Paper to note 3: also from that Minister, which is his response to the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee on the Bill. And paper to note 4: also a letter from that Minister to the Finance Committee on the Bill. And the final paper to note is from Mind Cymru regarding the task and finish group on a whole-school approach to mental health, and I will update Members on that when we go into private. Happy to note those? Item 4, then: can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.
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Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good to see you all again . Let's see if that comes up . This is our functional design meeting . Um . Just a sec while my PowerPoint comes up . Et voila . Okay . Mm um we put the fashion in electronics . Let's start . Okay , our agenda today um {disfmarker} just check the time , it's twelve thirteen . Um . I'm gonna do an opening , talk about um {disfmarker} did you all get the minutes ? I e-mailed them to you . I'm also putting 'em {disfmarker} them in the shared folder .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: So um then I {disfmarker} we'll talk about our general objectives
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: and have your three presentations . Um I'll talk about the new project requirements I've just received , and then we have to make a decision on our remote control functions . Finally we'll just close . We're starting this meeting at approximately twelve thirteen and we have forty minutes . So {disfmarker} First of all the functional design objectives . Uh we need to keep in mind the user requirement specification , what needs and desires are to be fulfilled , the {gap} functions design , what effects the apparatus should have , and the working design , how the apparatus actually works to fulfil its function . Okay , three presentations , um you can go in any order you choose um .
Marketing: {gap} Mm shall we go in the order that you just did it ?
Project Manager: Sure , please do .
Marketing: I dunno . How do I hook my screen up ?
Industrial Designer: I think , you might have to disconnect Rose .
Project Manager: Yes I do . Yeah .
User Interface: Well there's a wee a wee plug just just that one there
Marketing: Where does it go ? Mm-hmm . Hmm , I'm not supposed to move this ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Ah that's it , yep .
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: And then you have to press function F_ eight
Project Manager: Function , F_ eight , yeah .
User Interface: I think it is on your laptop .
Project Manager: The blue one , F_N_ .
Marketing: Where's function ? No signal .
Project Manager: Is it plugged in all the way and you screwed it in and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Ah , wait , 's screw in .
Industrial Designer: I I think you just have to push it in really hard .
Marketing: Push the screw .
User Interface: That's it .
Industrial Designer: Oh , got it .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
Marketing: Mm alright
Project Manager: It's taking it a little bit {disfmarker}
Marketing: I've never attached to anything .
Industrial Designer: Mm , neither have I .
Project Manager: 'Kay there you go .
Marketing: Alright , so ,
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: I don't know if you guys are able to get access to um the report that was online or if I'm the only one who is . But , I don't even know how to play this . No .
Project Manager: Press the little presentation . It's the um {disfmarker} it looks like a Y_ kind of {disfmarker} over there above Draw . There , that one , there you go .
Marketing: Alright . So we're just gonna talk a little bit about the functional requirements that people specified when they were asked . Um I guess Real Reaction did some market research . They had a hundred subjects and their usability lab and they watched them watch T_V_ and recorded the frequency that they used particular buttons and the relevance that those buttons had . What they found was they analysed people's desires and needs . Focusing on their desires , um people specifically said that they thought remotes were ugly {vocalsound} , seventy five per cent of the a hundred subjects noted that and that they {disfmarker} more importantly though , eighty per cent said that they would be willing to pay more for a fancier looking remote . I don't know anything beyond what fancy means ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: but that's particularly of use to us , I think . Um also they did some questions on voice recognition and found that the desire for voice recognition was inversely related to age , so younger people were more inclined to want something with voice recognition , whereas the older people in the like sixty and above segment or so did not really think that they would pay more money for voice recognitions .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: Um people also had certain frustrations , that I think that we could try to take into consideration with our design . That being people k um frustrated with losing their remotes . I think , over fifty percent of the people mentioned that that was their biggest frustration . People are also frustrated with the difficulty it is to learn how to use a remote and I think that ties back to what you were saying before
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: just that there's too many buttons , it just needs to be easy to use . It also mentioned something called R_S_I_ and I was hoping someone might be able to inform me as to what R_S_I_ is ,
User Interface: Repetitive strain injury .
Marketing: because I don't know .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Repetitive strain injury .
Marketing: What ? Ah . There we go .
User Interface: So if you {disfmarker}
Marketing: Wow . People do not like that . So I guess sort of the carpal tunnel type thing , people do not like that , um the repetitive use , I guess , caused a strain . Um looking at the needs people specified , the problem right now is that people's remotes are not matching their operating behaviour . People are only using ten per cent of the buttons that they have offered to them on their remote . And what people do most often is changing the channel and changing the volume . People also zap like to change the channel , about um sixty five per cent during an hour of use . So we really just need to focus in on those volumes and channel changers rather than things like the audio settings , the screen settings and the channel settings , because they're used much more infrequently and probably just complicate what's going on . So I think that some things that we might wanna think about , the idea of an L_C_D_ screen was brought up although they didn't have any details on what people's preferences on that were , so I dunno know if that's coming to me later , or something like that . But something for us to consider also just the phenomenon that less is more when it comes to the buttons on the remote or what we wanna make easiest to use , make sure that , you know , something like an audio setting isn't given as much importance and visibility on the remote as something like channel changing that's used a lot more often . And basically in order for us to win over to the consumer we just need to focus on what it looks like , that it has a fancy appeal and that it's not ugly {vocalsound} and that it feels like the way they're gonna use it , so it doesn't give them any hand injuries or things like that .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: Thank you very much . That was that was great .
Industrial Designer: Mm 'kay .
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} 's move on to the next presentation um on effects . Was that you ?
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: Great .
Marketing: Yeah , have I unscrewed it ?
Project Manager: Push . User interface , right . Interface .
Marketing: Here we go .
User Interface: Cheers .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . And I think that's in the shared , if I did it right , if anyone wants to look at it .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay , thank you .
Industrial Designer: Okay , great .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Here we go . Right so I'm gonna talk about the technical technical functions design of the remote control um . We need to start by considering what a remote control actually is . It's a device that allows us to produce certain effects on our television , so i it's basically a communication device . We we tell the remote control what we want to do , it sends a message to the television saying change the channel , change the volume , uh yeah , adjust these settings , adjust the brightness . Um how do we actually go about designing a new television remote control ? First thing to do is to come up with the design specifications . We need to know what our final product is gonna be like , so we need a a clear idea of exactly what this product does , uh how it works , and what the end-user is gonna want from this product . Um . Oh , a way I'd suggest that we could go about this is by designing uh several different prototypes of user interfaces for this product , um and then uh trying to get some feedback uh about
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: h how well these particular prototypes work , uh sorta find out what people think of 'em . Um using a remote control is is quite a subjective experience . Um ,
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: and different different people sort of prefer different things . Um we should remember that remote controls are a a fairly standard piece of equipment . When a users using a remote control , he or she expects the buttons to be in certain places . So in some sense we're gonna we're gonna have to aim for a device which is fairly conventional in design uh so that we're not completely shocking people . But I think within that there is also room for us to introduce novel ideas uh and to make something that's that's perhaps a little bit different , something that stands out . Um also in in designing the user interface we need to consider practicalities . Uh the first of these is is technological ye uh what can we do with the current state of technology as it is . The second is is economic , uh we need to find a balance between features and price . So as you mentioned things like voice recognition would would add to the price uh but it would also im improve the design of the product .
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: So I had a look on the {disfmarker} on the web uh to see if I could find a few examples of existing television remote controls . In analysing these we can consider what what things {disfmarker} what's good about them , uh what things do they get right , what's bad about them , what's wrong with 'em , um how we can improve on the designs that that that I found and what can we do to make our product stand out from from the large majority of remote controls . Here's two examples uh probably at the extreme ends of the spectrum .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um on the left here we've got uh an engineering-based design for a remote control ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so it's one that's got lots of buttons , it's it's fully featured , everything you might possibly want to do is there , you know , it's got forward , backwards , up , down , channel numbers , volume , uh freeze frame . Yeah , it's it's fully featured and it might take a while to get to learn to use it , but once you've learned it you can {disfmarker} you can do whatever you want with your T_V_ . The one on the right is a lot more basic . It's just got the essential functions of the T_V_ changing the channel , play , stop , volume . It would be a lot quicker to learn to use it , but again th it's it's swings and roundabouts . There are disadvantages , you can't use it say to to freeze the television picture . Uh there's a lot of features that are missing from that remote control . So we've got to to find our {disfmarker} find a way of striking a balance between the two . Um as I said before , remote controls are subjective , different people want want different things . Um personally wa what I want from a remote control is a device that's simple , it it's easy to use , uh it's got big buttons for doing the things I do most often , changing the volume , changing the channel . It it does everything that I need it to uh , as I said before , I'm quite lazy , I don't wanna walk across the room just to adjust my television . I also want something that that looks cool , um and that that feels good , that's ergonomically designed .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay . Thank you very much . That was very useful . {vocalsound} It's funny to see the {vocalsound} drastic difference between those two remotes . {vocalsound} Um .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: And neither of them were very pretty , you know ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: I think that could be our selling point .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: A fashion fashion remote .
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: I think there's there's certainly a market for technology that looks cool .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: And I think that's that's why companies like Apple've 've 've made a lot of progress .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right , I really can't see what I'm doing , so does anyone have a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You {disfmarker} there it is .
Industrial Designer: Ah-ha , look at that , showing up already .
Project Manager: Lovely .
Marketing: So wait , did it let you go on the Internet or was that just what it let you see ?
User Interface: Uh that was just on the d on the company web site , yeah .
Marketing: Okay . 'Cause I was like googling
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and then I'm like wait {vocalsound} it won't let me google . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright um {disfmarker} No , how do I play again ?
Project Manager: Um the {disfmarker} it's right above Draw . There are three thingy if {disfmarker} it's way at the bottom . Under three icons
Industrial Designer: Ah .
Project Manager: and it's the one that looks like a desk . Yeah , that one . There are Y_s {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Okay . So this is our working design presentation . Um I had a bit of {disfmarker} some issues with this , because I wasn't able to find everything I needed , but I guess that's {disfmarker} we're still in early stages . Um so , yeah , this is this . Though th the thing about working design is the {disfmarker} what we're trying to do as a working design is figure out how the aparata apparatus can fulfil its function . Um one of the examples that kept coming up for me is that a coffee grinder . It works because it converts electrical energy to grinding the beans and then you put the bean through a filter and that filters out , and then you get coffee at the end that's nice and hot because of the combination of electrical energy and then the other things that are brought in to make it work . Don't know if I'm explaining that very well , but {disfmarker} how do I get to the next s ah . So h the method as um working designers figure out what you need to make it fulfil this practical function , what what needs to be done and how do we convert all the elements to make that done .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So wha the easiest thing to do is to break down all the points at which you need something to happen . So you make a schematic of the way that the the energy is converted tsh towards this practical function . And then I think the easiest thing to do is gonna be work on each task separately . So um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You just press {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh . Uh .
Project Manager: yeah , just click . That'll be fine .
Industrial Designer: So the findings that I got uh very {disfmarker} just very briefly is that you have a choice of the way that the information is projected to the receiver and in my opinion infra-red is the best way to do that 'cause you don't need a sight line . So that's one thing we're gonna work on . Um the user interface is critical here , because a lot of the things that happen in a remote control happen through the chip that controls {disfmarker} that converts the electrical energy into data , which then goes through the infra-red , so the the chip that uh I think Ian is designing , is gonna be crucial . And really it all comes down to the to the user , because they're the one that's controlling most of the working design . So the components that we find here are the energy source , you know the battery or whatever that's gonna m make it work , then the chip , which converts the data , the user that's controlling the chip , and the infra-red bulb that's gonna let us move the data to the receiver . So you have four main components and they are designed sort of like this . You have your energy source right there which then um brings uh energy or information to the chip , which is also controlled by the users . You have energy going to the user who's controlling the chip {disfmarker} ooh 's not what I wanted to do uh uh .
Project Manager: Um yeah use that thing {gap} you can go back , previous .
Industrial Designer: Previous . Sorry about that , guys .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Pardon .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Project Manager: Oh , well .
Industrial Designer: No , no , no , no , no .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay , let's just get back to my schematic here .
Project Manager: Ye Double click on it . With the right {disfmarker} with the left hand one .
Industrial Designer: W yeah , yeah . I think it's frozen . Here . Don't show me that tip again .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} There we are .
Industrial Designer: There we are . Sorry about this , guys .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'm kind of pathetic with things like this . Um alright . So you have your energy source , your user interface who's controlling the chip , the chip also uses the energy , and the chip through the use of the user interface is gonna control the switch which will work your infra-red bulb , which will then bring the data to the receiver . So hopefully that makes sense for everyone in my kind of garbled way .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: This is the the parts of the working design that need to be figured out . And {vocalsound} personal preferences , besides the fact that I can't spell , we need a long-lasting energy source , people don't wanna be changing it a lot . We need a chip that works well with the user interface , that isn't too complicated . We need a straightforward interface , like Ian was saying , simple , not overwhelming it with information and we need a reliable and clear infra-red signal , so that you're not waving your remote around
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and having to get frustrated and go do it by hands . So that's pretty much it for the working design .
Project Manager: Excellent . {gap} So , um .
Industrial Designer: Rose , do you think you can give me a hand with this ?
Project Manager: Yes , absolutely . Ah I can never tell which way to turn these things .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Lefty loosey , righty tighty , right ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: What's up ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Lefty loosey , righty tighty .
User Interface: Lefty loosey . Uh .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Never heard that before ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh yes .
User Interface: that's good . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'll think of that every time now .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's gonna stick in your head .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , that's a good one it'll stick with you .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay . Um I have nothing on my screen . Just a sec . Here we are .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Ooh ,
Project Manager: Okay , yeah , it's fine .
Industrial Designer: no signal .
Project Manager: Okay , requirements . We have a couple new requirements that I was just e-mailed right before the meeting and that we have to keep in in um in mind as we're creating this .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: We didn't bring it up yet , or at all in the meetings so far , but we're not gonna work with teletext because um {disfmarker} well it {disfmarker} that's been taken over by the internet , so we're not gonna worry about um {disfmarker} we're not gonna worry about that .
Marketing: What's teletext ?
Project Manager: Um .
Industrial Designer: Uh , it's a British thing .
Marketing: Oh . Oh ,
User Interface: You don't have it in the States ?
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: no . W d could {disfmarker} would you care to explain it ?
User Interface: Oh , I didn't realise . Um yeah , it's like a {disfmarker} I suppose it's kind of similar to a very very basic web browser . Um you have like you have uh numbers on your remote control , uh y and you type in the page number you want ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: so like you type a hundred on your remote control and this this kind of index appears on the television screen with just some some text and some very blocky looking graphics on it . And you just type numbers to go to different pages and it gives you information , mostly rather boring stuff like what's on T_V_ next and share prices and that kind of thing .
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: S {vocalsound} Lottery numbers and sport scores .
User Interface: Yep , news headlines .
Industrial Designer: But if you ever see the T_V_ saying like go to page one sixty on Ceefax now , that's what they're talking about .
Project Manager: How ?
User Interface: It's earl it's pretty old technology .
Marketing: Oh .
User Interface: It's like nineteen eighties .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: That explains a lot .
Industrial Designer: I have no idea why we don't have it , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's good .
Project Manager: Interesting . Okay um , well , we're not gonna {disfmarker} the management has decided we're not gonna work with that . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay um and we're also gonna w like your question earlier um whether this is going to be t for television , video , or etcetera . Just for television . That's what we're focused on .
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: Um otherwise becomes to complex , we wanna get this out um very quickly . We only have a a short amount of time .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Um and finally there's more marketing , I think , um , our corporate image has to be recognisable . So while we're gonna make it look pretty we need to use our colour and our slogan i in the new design .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: So what's our corporate image like ? It's {disfmarker} It's kind of yellow colour with uh we put fashion in electronics .
Project Manager: Looks like , yeah , kind of a yellow and black and we have that {disfmarker} the emphasis on the R_s in um {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's like double R_ .
Project Manager: mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: But it's , yeah , we put the um fashion in electronics . So we gotta keep that in that in mind .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay , so we want something that looks good
Project Manager: Yep . Yep .
Industrial Designer: and is yellow .
Project Manager: Yeah , or {vocalsound} ha maybe some buttons could be yellow . Like , we can we can play around with it a little bit .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Um . Okay , we need to talk about our functions and our target group . We need to decide who our target group is . You um in your analysis of different market um {disfmarker} of the marketing , you identified that different groups wanted different things
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: or had certain preferences , for example that um that older people didn't really care for um voice recognition , but younger people did .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um and so who are we aiming this at ?
Industrial Designer: Well if we're gonna say that function um fashion {disfmarker} we put the fashion in in electronics then you {disfmarker} automatically , I think , a sort of younger group that {disfmarker} that's {disfmarker} who's gonna be attracted to this .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes , I do think , who's gonna have the money to buy that also , that one ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . It's gonna be twenty five Euro remember , so um it has to be avai marketable to um whomever it is .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Is it {disfmarker} is it something that's gonna be sold separately from the television or is it something that comes w with a television ? 'Cause that would affect the way that we market it .
Project Manager: Well at least right now what we're doing is um deciding on just the remote itself , so it will probably be sold separately , twenty five Euro by itself .
User Interface: Right . Right , okay .
Marketing: The only break-down that I was given in terms of age was the voice activation and basically there's a big jump , after thirty five people don't really care if it has voice , so it's like basically fifteen to thirty five that think that that's a good idea .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: I dunno I'm gonna be given any other numbers broken down in terms of age later , but if that's sort of the only quality that we have that is divided into age then we would wanna stick between the fifteen and thirty five range .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's probably uh a population w quite a little bit of disposable income for use on technology anyway , so that might be a fairly good target group for us .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now , those are {disfmarker} that's all specific for speech recognition . Are we gonna use that as one of our functions ?
User Interface: Um .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: I I would say no , because it's gonna add too much to the price . Especially if we are marketing it as a separate product , people are gonna be paying
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: uh , well , uh we've got a price limit of {disfmarker} was it twelve twelve and a half Euros for {disfmarker} to produce it ?
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: To produce it , yeah .
Project Manager: To produce it , yes .
User Interface: And I wonder if we can get voice recognition into that twelve and a half Euros without having to make too many other compromises .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: But what else are we gonna put , I mean not that I'm really gung-ho about it , I don't know what else you can put in a remote to make it technologically advanced though . So like other than just making it look good , how is it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: I mean it can look really great and still have the same up-n-down buttons
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} right .
Marketing: and why's anyone gonna buy a new remote ?
Industrial Designer: Well but why are we why are we aiming for a technological advancement ? Everything we're talking about is ease of use and simple and that doesn't necessarily mean more technology ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: That's a good thing to keep in mind .
Industrial Designer: in fact it could use {disfmarker} it could mean , not . If {vocalsound} {disfmarker} they might be overwhelmed with with remotes that have too many buttons and too much technology .
Marketing: If someone's looking to buy a new remote , don't they want like an upgrade ? I dunno .
Project Manager: Upgrade ? Well , we can look for {disfmarker} we can look at upgrade or we can look at um user-friendly .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , simplification .
Project Manager: Simplification ,
Industrial Designer: They could have a crap remote
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: that came with their T_V_ that's just impossible to use , or maybe it broke , or maybe they're just missing it .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Uh-huh , mm . And we also need to talk about if we're only gonna have the very simple ones or also have the other ones just separate somehow or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Can you like {disfmarker} I mean this may be too complicated , but , I wish I had something to explain it , like if it was just a simple , either this way or this way , that had like the main buttons and then you could like pull something out , kind of and like you got the rest the buttons ,
Industrial Designer: Ooh .
Marketing: but the rest of them like went in .
User Interface: The remote {disfmarker}
Marketing: Do you know what I'm saying ?
Project Manager: Kind of pull out of the side .
User Interface: There are remote controls like that , yeah . Like some T_V_s they have a sort of uh a sliding screen on the remote control of it
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: that hides all the complicated buttons .
Industrial Designer: Ooh .
User Interface: So if you wanna do something complicated like programme your television or re-tune it , then you you open up this little hatch or or slide the screen down
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and there's all the {disfmarker} all the special buttons .
Marketing: 'Cause then 's like people who don't wanna ever look at them , never even have to see them
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and if you like get the instruction manual that comes with it and you just don't even read it then you'll never even know that those things can pull out .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: And you're a happy person and everyone else doesn't have to have like two remotes , one that has the easy ones and one that has
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's a good idea .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: more complicated ones ,
User Interface: I think that's a good idea , yeah .
Marketing: but 's all still in one .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Um we have to be careful that that that doesn't impede um the chip transmitting information , but um that's gonna be mostly technological thing . Um .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Good point .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay um , so what are we emphasising ? I {disfmarker} what in this project ?
User Interface: Si simplicity and fashion .
Project Manager: Simplicity and fashion .
Marketing: I think simplicity , fashion .
Industrial Designer: Yeah mm .
Project Manager: Okay , those are very good goals , I think , um that we have to keep in mind in {disfmarker} with everything we do . Simplicity and fashion and , yeah , {disfmarker} or usability speci however you wanna say that , which includes um an emphasis on making the infra-red very functional , so that you don't have to travel around a lot .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um .
Marketing: What can you do to like make the infra-red more functional , like why would it not be ? I'm just wondering .
Project Manager: I think it's a lot {vocalsound} to do with battery , but that's just my {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: The battery and that {disfmarker} I think that the chip takes the data and presents it well , without sort of scattering .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So 's just the quality of the chip .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I think so .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: The quality {vocalsound} uh quality of all the components really , I mean , we can't really do anything {disfmarker} shoddy work , 'cause it's
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: gonna be visible down the line .
Project Manager: So our target group , we're saying , fifteen to thirty five ?
Marketing: Well , I dunno how useful that number is if we're not doing {disfmarker}
Project Manager: S voice recognition , which I kind of I kind of feel like voice recognition is not necessary in a remote control ,
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah . I don't .
Project Manager: like it might be necessary for a T_V_ but not for the remote c , you know .
User Interface: It's , yeah , it's pretty it's pretty high-tech .
Industrial Designer: Mm-mm .
Project Manager: Seems a little bit {disfmarker} Mm-hmm . Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: and it might be too expensive .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: And if the whole idea is you're using a remote then why would you have voice ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: like you know what I mean and then it's like you wouldn't need a remote you'd just talk to your T_V_ .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ooh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's for , like , the ultimately lazy people ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: who can't even be bothered to pick up the remote .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm yeah .
Industrial Designer: I
Marketing: Maybe {disfmarker} I mean if I get m more numbers , I'll e-mail you before the next meeting in terms of ages . But this doesn't divide up anything and there was only a hundred subjects also ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: which isn't , I mean , really isn't that representative , especially if it's a hundred subjects that th they then can subdivide into age groups that means there's very few in each age group , so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but I th I think regardless we're we're aiming for the under sixty five or something .
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Under sixty five , okay ,
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: that's a good start . Um . I'd say we're {disfmarker} uh can we narrow it down to maybe um teenagers and families ? 'Cause that would go up to like fifty ?
Industrial Designer: Or like single professionals or something .
Project Manager: Okay , single {disfmarker}
Marketing: Twenty to like fifty five .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: I dunno .
Project Manager: It's it's hard to narrow it down .
Industrial Designer: It's really hard to figure out right now .
User Interface: I think the product appeals across a quite a broad range of ages .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I mean , we we said simplicity is is one of the features , so it's going to appeal to people , maybe people who have problems with technology , you know , people who get scared by having lots of buttons ,
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: and that might be older people ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: but then we've also got fashion , which is something that definitely appeals to younger people .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Well maybe we don't have to defi define the target group by the demographic of age ,
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: maybe we can define it by like the demographic of like h t how much money they have to spend or something like that ,
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah aim for a {disfmarker} an income group .
Industrial Designer: That's a good point .
Marketing: like , well
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: obviously it has to be someone who owns a television ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and like how recently have they bought their television like that sort of thing .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: So maybe it's more useful to d d to define objectives like fashion and simplicity than to find specific target group as far as age is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , t probably .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: because , yeah , things so different will appeal to different people , but {disfmarker} Okay . Um oh , there're a couple functions {disfmarker} do we want something so that {disfmarker} do we want some kind of thing to find it if it's lost ? Like a button on a T_V_ you can press
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: and it'll ring or something , I don't know like {disfmarker} or beep ?
Marketing: H I mean , like I said before , fifty per cent of of the fru f like frustration someone can have that was the biggest one and half the people said that happened and we all mentioned it before we knew about it .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: And if we're talking about making something easy that sort of goes along with it so it wouldn't be like a random thing to sort of add in .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: It would be relevant to like the overall goal I think ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that'll probably be good .
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , we have to {disfmarker} we have about four minutes left to define our functions . So let's do that quickly . Um so we want something to keep it from getting lost .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: And {vocalsound} we want um we want large buttons for the essential things . Large , accessible buttons for the essentials .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: We want a possibility to um to get um a possibility to get the extra functions .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Which are kind of hidden away in some way or well not hidden but they're uh they're not as prominent as the main features .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: Um , yeah , hidden way . And we also want it to be fashionable , which I'm not sure if that's a function so much as a um yeah {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} on your coffee table , it's not like an eye sore , that kind of thing .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Alright .
Project Manager: Okay , do it . Any other essential functions that we need ? Battery ? Do we need a long-life battery ?
Industrial Designer: Battery battery use . Yeah , but I think that goes in with simplicity and ease of use really .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: But we might as well .
Marketing: So you never have to change the battery .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: We should maybe investigate whether it needs a battery at all . I suspect the remote control does need a battery ,
Project Manager: Yeah , I would imagine .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: but I dunno if you can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just 'cause it is an electronic device , the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} I think it does . I don't I don't think of a way you can operate a chip and convert that much data without without one .
User Interface: Yeah , without the energy , yeah .
Industrial Designer: But you could maybe have it in a little charging station like a mobile phone , or like a little cradle for your iPod .
User Interface: Yeah , that's that's possible . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You could {disfmarker} we could maybe do that instead .
Project Manager: Charging .
Industrial Designer: So you don't ha you got like a rechargeable battery .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I dunno , that might contribute to less people losing it too if it {vocalsound} it stays in one place .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: We have to think about um space in living-rooms , too , like 'cause they're {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: I mean , would you put it on top of the T_V_ ? I don't know , just think {disfmarker} okay , that's {vocalsound} that's a good idea , we'll keep it . Think it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . That's just off the top of my head .
Project Manager: And maybe fun . Okay . Um 'kay we're gonna conclude now , has everyone said their functions and {disfmarker} 'kay .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: Um after the meeting we're gonna each complete a sks um a questionnaire and a summaries {disfmarker} summary . I don't know what summarisation . Um and then we'll have our lunch break . After that we have thirty minutes of individual work . Um I'll make sure to put up um the minutes and the project documentation and including these PowerPoint slides . If everyone could do that as well , that'd be great . Um you each have individual actions , I_ um I_D_ Industrial Design you've your components concept , User Interface , the user interface concept , market trend wa watching .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And as as per last time you'll get specific incrat instructions from your personal coach e-mailed to you . And hopefully , I hope , next time you'll be able to access more of the web site that they they seem to tell you that you could . It's kinda frustrating ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , who knows .
Project Manager: but um {disfmarker} Be sure to note any frustrations or any um issues that come up in your um in your um summary .
Industrial Designer: Okay
Project Manager: Mm 'kay ?
Industrial Designer: Sounds good .
Project Manager: Great seeing y'all . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's good .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Did you um {disfmarker} were you able to like put yours in the group folder ?
Industrial Designer: Yes , I just did that .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Hopefully it is there for people .
Marketing: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ?
Project Manager: Looks like there are um {disfmarker} looks like there's a second one kind of of mine that's {disfmarker} that I didn't do ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: it's from like an earlier project , I think so um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Where is that ? Yours is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Under the shared folder , I don't know it might not even be under yours as well .
Industrial Designer: Technical . So
Project Manager: Projects .
Industrial Designer: in there we have technical functions presentation , working design presentation and the functional requirements . At least that's what I have in .
Marketing: I only have three , I just have like our three . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's what I have as well , R Rose {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . You don't have mine ?
Industrial Designer: So .
Marketing: No , but that's 'cause I think yours is in the e-mail separate , like it's not on the server .
Project Manager: S
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: But if I open it and then save it , probably will be there . Oh wait , never mind you can't save it to the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . Well I'll figure that out in the meantime .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
| |
doc_35
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Professor B: Are we on ? We 're on . OK .
PhD E: Is it on ?
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah . OK ,
PhD D: One , two {disfmarker} u OK .
PhD A: Why is it so cold in here ?
Professor B: so , uh , we haven't sent around the agenda . So , i uh , any agenda items anybody has , wants to talk about , what 's going on ?
Postdoc G: I c I could talk about the meeting .
Grad H: Does everyone {disfmarker} has everyone met Don ?
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Professor B: It 's on ?
PhD C: Now , yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad H: Yeah ? OK .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad F: Hello .
Professor B: OK , agenda item one ,
PhD D: We went {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yeah .
Professor B: introduce Don . OK , we did that . Uh {disfmarker}
PhD A: Well , I had a {disfmarker} just a quick question but I know there was discussion of it at a previous meeting that I missed , but just about the {disfmarker} the wish list item of getting good quality close - talking mikes on every speaker .
Professor B: OK , so let 's {disfmarker} let 's {disfmarker} So let 's just do agenda {pause} building right now . OK , so let 's talk about that a bit .
PhD A: I mean , that was {disfmarker}
Professor B: Uh , @ @ tuss close talking mikes , better quality . OK , {vocalsound} uh , we can talk about that . You were gonna {disfmarker} starting to say something ?
Postdoc G: Well , you {disfmarker} you , um , already know about the meeting {comment} that 's coming up and I don't know if {disfmarker} if this is appropriate for this . I don't know . I mean , maybe {disfmarker} maybe it 's something we should handle outside of the meeting .
Professor B: No , no , that 's OK .
PhD E: What meeting ?
Professor B: We can {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} we can ta so n NIST is {disfmarker} NIST folks are coming by next week
Postdoc G: OK .
Professor B: and so we can talk about that .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Professor B: I think
PhD E: Who 's coming ?
Professor B: Uh , uh , John Fiscus
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and , uh , I think George Doddington will be around as well . Uh , OK , so we can talk about that . Uh , I guess just hear about how things are going with , uh , uh , the transcriptions . That 's right .
Postdoc G: Sure . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: That would sorta be an obvious thing to discuss . Um , An - anything else , uh , strike anybody ?
PhD A: Uh , we started {pause} running recognition on {pause} one conversation but it 's the r {pause} isn't working yet . So , But if anyone has {disfmarker}
Professor B: OK .
PhD E: Wha
PhD A: uh , the main thing would be if anyone has , um , knowledge about ways to , uh , post - process the wave forms that would give us better recognition , that would be helpful to know about .
Professor B: Um ,
Grad H: Dome yeah , it sounds like a topic of conversation .
Professor B: Yeah , so , uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: What about , uh , is there anything new with the speech , nonspeech stuff ?
PhD C: Yeah , we 're working more on it but , {vocalsound} it 's not finished .
Professor B: OK . Alright , that seems like a {disfmarker} a good collection of things . And we 'll undoubtedly think of {pause} other things .
Postdoc G: I had thought under my topic that I would mention the , uh , four items that I {disfmarker} I , uh , put out for being on the agenda f on that meeting , which includes like the pre - segmentation and the {disfmarker} and the developments in multitrans .
Professor B: Oh , under the NIST meeting .
Postdoc G: Yeah , under the NIST thing .
Professor B: OK .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Professor B: Alright , why don't we start off with this , u u I guess the order we brought them up seems fine .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Professor B: Um , so , better quality close talking mikes . So the one issue was that the {disfmarker} the , uh , lapel mike , uh , isn't as good as you would like . And so , uh , it {disfmarker} it 'd be better if we had close talking mikes for everybody . Right ?
PhD A: Ri - um ,
Professor B: Is that {disfmarker} is that basically the point ?
PhD A: yeah , the {disfmarker} And actually in addition to that , that the {disfmarker} the close talking mikes are worn in such a way as to best capture the signal . And the reason here is just that for the people doing work not on microphones but on sort of like dialogue and so forth , uh {disfmarker} or and even on prosody , which Don is gonna be working on soon , it adds this extra , you know , vari variable for each speaker to {disfmarker} to deal with when the microphones aren't similar .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad H: Right .
PhD A: So {disfmarker} And I also talked to Mari this morning and she also had a strong preference for doing that . And in fact she said that that 's useful for them to know in starting to collect their data too .
Professor B: Mm - hmm . Right , so one th
Grad H: Well , so {disfmarker}
Professor B: uh , well one thing I was gonna say was that , um , i we could get more , uh , of the head mounted microphones even beyond the number of radio channels we have because I think whether it 's radio or wire is probably second - order . And the main thing is having the microphone close to you ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: u although , not too close .
Grad H: Right , so , uh , actually the way Jose is wearing his is {disfmarker} is c {pause} correct .
PhD D: Yeah . Is {disfmarker}
Grad H: The good way . So you want to {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: I it 's not cor it 's correct ?
Professor B: Is .
Grad H: Yeah , th that 's good .
Professor B: Yes .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad H: So it 's towards the corner of your mouth so that breath sounds don't get on it .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad H: And then just sort of about , uh , a thumb or {disfmarker} a thumb and a half away from your {disfmarker} from your mouth .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah . Uh , yeah .
Professor B: Right .
PhD A: But we have more than one type of {disfmarker}
Professor B: How am I d
PhD A: I mean , for instance , you 're {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad H: And this one isn't very adjustable ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad H: so this about as good as I can get
PhD A: Right .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad H: cuz it 's a fixed boom .
PhD D: Is fixed . Yeah .
PhD A: But if we could actually standardize , you know , the {disfmarker} the microphones , uh , as much as possible that would be really helpful .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad H: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Well , I mean it doesn't hurt to have a few extra microphones around ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: so why don't we just go out and {disfmarker} and get an order of {disfmarker} of if this microphone seems OK to people , uh , I 'd just get a half dozen of these things .
Grad H: Well the onl the only problem with that is right now , um , some of the Jimlets aren't working . The little {disfmarker} the boxes under the table .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad H: And so , w Uh , I 've only been able to find three jacks that are working .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: Can we get these , wireless ?
Grad H: So {disfmarker}
Professor B: No , but my point is {disfmarker}
PhD A: But y we could just record these signals separately and time align them with the start of the meeting .
Professor B: R r right {disfmarker}
Grad H: I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure I 'm follow . Say that again ?
Professor B: Right now , we 've got , uh , two microphones in the room , that are not quote - unquote standard . So why don't we replace those {disfmarker}
Grad H: OK , just two .
Professor B: Well , however many we can plug in . You know , if we can plug in three , let 's plug in three .
Grad H: OK .
PhD D: Mm - yeah .
Professor B: Also what we 've talked before about getting another , uh , radio ,
Grad H: Right .
Professor B: and so then that would be , you know , three {pause} more .
Grad H: Right . OK .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , uh {disfmarker} so we should go out to our full complement of whatever we can do , but have them all be the same mike . I think the original reason that it was done the other way was because , it w it was sort of an experimental thing and I don't think anybody knew whether people would rather have more variety or {disfmarker} {vocalsound} or , uh , more uniformity ,
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: but {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} but uh , sounds {disfmarker} sounds fine .
Grad H: Sounds like uniformity wins .
PhD D: Right .
PhD A: Well , for short term research it 's just {disfmarker} there 's just so much effort that would have to be done up front n uh ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad H: Well {disfmarker}
PhD A: so {disfmarker} yeah , uniformity would be great .
Grad H: Yeah .
PhD E: Is it because {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you 're saying the {disfmarker} for dialogue purposes , so that means that the transcribers are having trouble with those mikes ? Is that what you mean ?
PhD A: Well Jane would know more about the transcribers .
PhD E: Or {disfmarker} ?
Postdoc G: And that 's true . I mean , I {disfmarker} we did discuss this . Uh , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}
Grad H: Yep . Couple times .
Postdoc G: a couple times , so , um , yeah , the transcribers notice {disfmarker} And in fact there 're some where , um {disfmarker} ugh well , I mean there 's {disfmarker} it 's the double thing . It 's the equipment and also how it 's worn .
PhD A: Right .
Postdoc G: And he 's always {disfmarker} they always {disfmarker} they just rave about how wonderful Adam 's {disfmarker} Adam 's channel is .
Grad H: What can I say .
Postdoc G: And then ,
PhD A: So does the recognizer .
Professor B: Yeah .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Grad H: Oh , really ? Yeah , I 'm not surprised . I mean , " Baaah ! "
PhD A: Even if {disfmarker} if you 're talking on someone else 's mike it 's still {pause} you w
Postdoc G: Yeah , but I mean it 's not just that , it 's also you know you
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc G: It 's also like n no breathing , no {disfmarker} You know , it 's like it 's {disfmarker} it 's um ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Postdoc G: it 's really {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} it makes a big difference from the transcribers ' point of view
Grad H: Yeah , it 's an advantage when you don't breath .
Postdoc G: and also from the research s point of view .
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: When we 're doing {disfmarker}
Grad H: Yeah , I think that the point of doing the close talking mike is to get a good quality signal . We 're not doing research on close talking mikes .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad H: So we might as well get it as uniform as we can .
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: Now , this is locking the barn door after the horse was stolen . We do have thirty hours , of {disfmarker} of speech , which is done this way .
Grad H: Yeah .
PhD A: That 's OK .
Professor B: But {disfmarker} but , uh , yeah , for future ones we can get it a bit more uniform .
PhD A: Great , great .
Grad H: So I think just do a field trip at some point .
Professor B: Yeah , probably {disfmarker} yeah , to the store we talked about and that {disfmarker}
Grad H: Yep .
Postdoc G: And there was some talk about , uh , maybe the h headphones that are uncomfortable for people , to {disfmarker}
Grad H: Yep . So , as {disfmarker} as I said , we 'll do a field trip and see if we can get all of the same mike that 's more comfortable than {disfmarker} than these things , which I think are horrible .
Postdoc G: OK . Good .
Grad H: So .
PhD A: Great , thank you very much .
PhD E: Especially for people with big heads .
PhD A: It 's makes our job a lot easier .
Professor B: OK . OK .
Grad H: And , you know , we 're researchers , so we all have big heads .
Professor B: OK .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah . Uh , OK , second item was the , uh , NIST visit , and what 's going on there .
Postdoc G: Yeah . OK , so , um , uh , Jonathan Fiscus is coming on the second of February and I 've spoken with , uh , {pause} u u a lot of people here , not everyone . Um , and , um , he expressed an interest in seeing the room and in , um , seeing a demonstration of the modified multitrans , which I 'll mention in a second , and also , um , he was interested in the pre - segmentation and then he 's also interested in the transcription conventions .
Grad H: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc G: And , um {disfmarker} So , um , it seems to me in terms of like , um , i i it wou You know , OK . So the room , it 's things like the audio and c and audi audio and acoustic {disfmarker} acoustic properties of the room and how it {disfmarker} how the recordings are done , and that kind of thing . And , um . OK , in terms of the multi - trans , well that {disfmarker} that 's being modified by Dave Gelbart to , uh , handle multi - channel recording .
Grad H: Oh , I should 've {disfmarker} I was just thinking I should have invited him to this meeting . I forgot to do it .
Postdoc G: Yeah , OK .
Grad H: So .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc G: Yeah . Well that 's OK , I mean we 'll {disfmarker}
Grad H: Sorry .
Postdoc G: Yeah , and it 's t and it looks really great . He {disfmarker} he has a prototype . I {disfmarker} I , uh , @ @ {comment} didn't {disfmarker} didn't see it , uh , yesterday but I 'm going to see it today . And , uh , that 's {disfmarker} that will enable us to do {pause} nice um , tight time marking of the beginning and ending of overlapping segments . At present it 's not possible with limitations of {disfmarker} of the , uh , original {pause} design of the software . And um . So , I don't know . In terms of , like , pre - segmentation , that {disfmarker} that continues to be , um , a terrific asset to the {disfmarker} to the transcribers . Do you {disfmarker} I know that you 're al also supplementing it further . Do you want to mention something about that c Thilo , or {disfmarker} ?
PhD C: Um , yeah . What {disfmarker} what I 'm doing right now is I 'm trying to include some information about which channel , uh , there 's some speech in . But that 's not working at the moment . I 'm just trying to do this by comparing energies , uh {disfmarker} normalizing energies and comparing energies of the different channels .
Postdoc G: OK .
PhD C: And so to {disfmarker} to give the transcribers some information in which channel there 's {disfmarker} there 's speech in addition to {disfmarker} to the thing we {disfmarker} we did now which is just , uh , speech - nonspeech detection on the mixed file . So I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm relying on {disfmarker} on the segmentation of the mixed file
Postdoc G: This is good . Mm - hmm .
PhD C: but I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm trying to subdivide the speech portions into different portions if there is some activity in {disfmarker} in different channels .
Postdoc G: Excellent , so this 'd be like w e providing also speaker ID {pause} potentially .
PhD C: But {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc G: Wonderful . Wonderful .
Professor B: Um , something I guess I didn't put in the list but , uh , on that , uh , same day later on in {disfmarker} or maybe it 's {disfmarker} No , actually {pause} it 's this week , uh , Dave Gelbart and I will be , uh , visiting with John Canny who i you know , is a CS professor ,
Postdoc G: Oh .
Professor B: who 's interested in ar in array microphones .
Grad H: HCC . Oh , he 's doing array mikes .
Professor B: Yeah . And so we wanna see what commonality there is here . You know , maybe they 'd wanna stick an array mike here when we 're doing things
PhD E: That would be cool .
Grad H: Yeah , that would be neat .
Professor B: or {disfmarker} or maybe it 's {disfmarker} it 's not a specific array microphone they want
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD E: That would be really neat .
Professor B: but they might wanna just , {disfmarker} uh , you know , you could imagine them taking the four signals from these {disfmarker} these table mikes and trying to do something with them {disfmarker} Um , I also had a discussion {disfmarker} So , w uh , we 'll be over {disfmarker} over there talking with him , um , after class on Friday . Um , we 'll let you know what {disfmarker} what goes with that . Also had a completely unrelated thing . I had a , uh , discussion today with , uh , Birger Kollmeier who 's a , uh , a German , uh , scientist who 's got a fair sized group {vocalsound} doing a range of things . It 's sort of auditory related , largely for hearing aids and so on . But {disfmarker} but , uh , he does stuff with auditory models and he 's very interested in directionality , and location , and {disfmarker} and , uh , head models and {pause} microphone things . And so , uh , he 's {disfmarker} he and possibly a student , there w there 's , uh , a student of his who gave a talk here last year , uh , may come here , uh , in the fall for , uh , sort of a five month , uh , sabbatical . So he might be around . Get him to give some talks and so on . But anyway , he might be interested in {pause} this stuff .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: That {disfmarker} that reminds me , I had a {disfmarker} a thought of an interesting project that somebody could try to do with {pause} the data from here , either using , you know , the {disfmarker} the mikes on the table or using signal energies from the head worn mikes ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: and that is to try to construct a map of where people were sitting ,
Professor B: Right .
PhD D: Uh - huh .
PhD E: uh , based on {disfmarker}
Grad H: Well Dan {disfmarker} Dan had worked on that . Dan Ellis ,
PhD D: Uh - huh .
PhD E: Oh , did he ? Oh , that 's interesting .
Grad H: yeah . So that {disfmarker} that 's the cross - correlation stuff , was {disfmarker} was doing b beam - forming .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD E: And so you could plot out who was sitting next to who
Professor B: A little bit ,
PhD E: and {disfmarker}
Professor B: I mean , he didn't do a very extreme thing but just {disfmarker} it was just sort of
PhD D: Yeah , yeah .
Grad H: No , he did start on it .
Professor B: e e given that , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the block of wood with the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the two mikes {comment} on either side ,
Grad H: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: if I 'm speaking , or if you 're speaking , or someone over there is speaking , it {disfmarker} if you look at cross - correlation functions , you end up with a {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: if {disfmarker} if someone who was on the axis between the two is talking , then you {disfmarker} you get a big peak there . And if {disfmarker} if someone 's talking on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on , uh , one side or the other , it goes the other way .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And then , uh , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it even looks different if th t if the two {disfmarker} two people on either side are talking than if one in the middle . It {disfmarker} it actually looks somewhat different , so .
PhD E: Hmm . Well I was just thinking , you know , as I was sitting here next to Thilo that um , when he 's talking , my mike probably picks it up better than {pause} your guys 's mikes .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD E: So if you just looked at {disfmarker}
Grad H: Oh , that 's another cl cue ,
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD E: yeah , {comment} looked at {comment} the energy on my mike and you could get an idea about who 's closest to who .
Grad H: that 's true .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: Right .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD E: And {disfmarker}
Grad H: Or who talks the loudest .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah , well you have to {disfmarker} the appropriate normalizations are tricky , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and are probably the key .
Grad H: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD A: You just search for Adam 's voice on each individual microphone , you pretty much know where everybody 's sitting .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah . We 've switched positions recently so you can't {disfmarker} Anyway . OK . So those are just a little couple of news items .
Postdoc G: Can I ask one thing ? Uh , so , um , Jonathan Fiscus expressed an interest in , uh , microphone arrays .
Professor B: Yes .
Postdoc G: Um , is there {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} b And I also want to say , his {disfmarker} he can't stay all day . He needs to uh , leave for {disfmarker} uh , from here to make a two forty - five flight
Grad H: Oh , so just morning .
Postdoc G: from {disfmarker} from Oakland .
Professor B: Right .
Postdoc G: So it makes the scheduling a little bit tight but do you think that , um {disfmarker} that , uh , i John Canny should be involved in this somehow or not . I have no idea .
Professor B: Probably not but I {disfmarker} I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll know better after I see him this Friday what {disfmarker} what kind of level he wants to get involved .
Postdoc G: It 's premature . Fine . Good .
Professor B: Uh , he might be excited to and it might be very appropriate for him to , uh , or he might have no interest whatsoever . I {disfmarker} I just really don't know .
Postdoc G: OK .
Grad H: Is he involved in {disfmarker} Ach ! {comment} I 'm blanking on the name of the project . NIST has {disfmarker} has done a big meeting room {disfmarker} instrumented meeting room with video and microphone arrays , and very elaborate software . Is {disfmarker} is he the one working on that ?
Professor B: Well that 's what they 're starting up .
Grad H: OK .
Professor B: Yeah . No , I mean , that 's what all this is about . They {disfmarker} they haven't done it yet . They wanted to do it {disfmarker}
Grad H: OK . I had read some papers that looked like they had already done some work .
Professor B: Uh , well I think they 've instrumented a room but I don't {pause} think they {disfmarker} they haven't started recordings yet . They don't have the t the transcription standards . They don't have the {disfmarker}
PhD E: Are they going to do video as well ?
Grad H: Hmm .
Professor B: Yeah . I think .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: I think they are .
Grad H: Oh , cuz what {disfmarker} what I had read was , uh , they had a uh very large amount of software infrastructure for coordinating all this , both in terms of recording and also live room where you 're interacting {disfmarker} the participants are interacting with the computer , and with the video , and lots of other stuff .
Professor B: Well , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm not sure .
Grad H: So .
Professor B: All {disfmarker} all I know is that they 've been talking to me about a project that they 're going to start up recording people meet in meetings .
Grad H: OK . Well {disfmarker}
Professor B: And , uh , it is related to ours . They were interested in ours . They wanted to get some uniformity with us , uh , about the transcriptions and so on .
Grad H: Alright .
Professor B: And one {disfmarker} one notable difference {disfmarker} u u actually I can't remember whether they were going to routinely collect video or not , but one {disfmarker} one , uh , difference from the audio side was that they are interested in using array mikes . So , um , I mean , I 'll just tell you the party line on that . The reason I didn't go for that here was because , uh , the focus , uh , both of my interest and of Adam 's interest was uh , in impromptu situations . And we 're not recording a bunch of impromptu situations but that 's because it 's different to get data for research than to actually apply it .
PhD D: Hmm .
Professor B: And so , uh , for scientific reasons we thought it was good to instrument this room as we wanted it . But the thing we ultimately wanted to aim at was a situation where you were talking with , uh , one or more other people i uh , in {disfmarker} in an p impromptu way , where you didn't {disfmarker} didn't actually know what the situation was going to be . And therefore it would not {disfmarker} it 'd be highly unlikely that room would be outfitted with {disfmarker} with some very carefully designed array of microphones . Um , so it was only for that reason . It was just , you know , yet another piece of research and it seemed like we had enough troubles just {disfmarker}
PhD E: So there 's no like portable array of mikes ?
Professor B: No . So there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} uh , there 's a whole range of things {disfmarker} there 's a whole array of things , {vocalsound} that people do on this .
PhD D: Hmm .
Professor B: So , um , the , uh {disfmarker} the big arrays , uh , places , uh , like uh , Rutgers , and Brown , and other {disfmarker} other places , uh , they have , uh , big arrays with , I don't know , a hundred {disfmarker} hundred mikes or something .
Grad H: Xerox .
Professor B: And so there 's a wall of mikes . And you get really , really good beam - forming {comment} with that sort of thing .
PhD E: Wow .
Professor B: And it 's {disfmarker} and , um , in fact at one point we had a {disfmarker} a proposal in with Rutgers where we were gonna do some of the sort of per channel signal - processing and they were gonna do the multi - channel stuff , but {pause} it d it d we ended up not doing it . But {disfmarker}
PhD E: I 've seen demonstrations of the microphone arrays . It 's amazing how {disfmarker} how they can cut out noise .
Professor B: Yeah , it 's r It 's really neat stuff .
Grad H: And then they have little ones too
Professor B: And then they had the little ones , yeah .
Grad H: but I mean {disfmarker} but they don't have our block of wood , right ?
Professor B: Yeah , our block of wood is unique .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: But the {vocalsound} But the No , there are these commercial things now you can buy that have four mikes or something
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} and , uh , um {disfmarker} So , yeah , there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's a range of things that people do .
PhD E: Huh .
Professor B: Um , so if we connected up with somebody who was interested in doing that sort of thing that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good thing to do . I mean , whenever I 've described this to other people who are interested on the {disfmarker} with the acoustic side that 's invariably the question they ask . Just like someone who is interested in the general dialogue thing will always ask {vocalsound} " um , are you recording video ? "
PhD A: Right ,
Professor B: Um , right ?
PhD A: right .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} and the acoustic people will always say , " well are you doing , uh , uh , array microphones ? " So it 's {disfmarker} it 's a good thing to do , but it doesn't solve the problem of how do you solve things when there 's one mike or at best two mikes in {disfmarker} in this imagined PDA that we have . So maybe {disfmarker} maybe we 'll do some more of it .
Postdoc G: Well one thing I {disfmarker} I mean , I don't know . I mean , I know that having an array of {disfmarker} I mean , I would imagine it would be more expensive to have a {disfmarker} an array of microphones . But couldn't you kind of approximate the natural sis situation by just shutting off uh , channels when you 're {disfmarker} later on ? I mean , it seems like if the microphones don't effect each other then couldn't you just , you know , record them with an array and then just not use all the data ?
Grad H: It 's {disfmarker} it 's just a lot of infrastructure that for our particular purpose we felt we didn't need to set up .
Postdoc G: I see .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc G: Fine .
Professor B: Yeah , if ninety - nine percent of what you 're doing is c is shutting off most of the mikes , then going through the {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: OK .
Professor B: But if you get somebody who 's {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who has that as a primary interest then that put {disfmarker} then that drives it in that direction .
Grad H: That 's right , I mean if someone {disfmarker} if someone came in and said we really want to do it ,
PhD A: Right .
Grad H: I mean , we don't care . That would be fine ,
PhD E: So to save that data you {disfmarker} You have to have one channel recording per mike in the array ?
Grad H: Buy more disk space .
Professor B: Well , uh , at some level {disfmarker} at some level .
PhD E: Is that {disfmarker}
Grad H: I usually do a mix .
Professor B: But then , you know , there 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker}
PhD E: What you save , I mean , if you 're going to do research with it . yeah
Professor B: There 's {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know what they 're going to do and I don't know how big their array is . Obviously if you were gonna save all of those channels for later research you 'd use up a lot of space .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: And , th
PhD E: Hmm .
Grad H: Well their software infrastructure had a very elaborate design for plugging in filters , and mixers , and all sorts of processing . So that they can do stuff in real time and not save out each channel individually .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD E: Mmm .
Grad H: So it was , uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: But I mean , uh , for optimum flexibility later you 'd want to save each channel . But I think in practical situations you would have some engine of some sort doing some processing to reduce this to some {disfmarker} to the equivalent of a single microphone that was very directional .
PhD E: Uh , oh , OK , I see .
Professor B: Right ?
PhD A: I mean , it seems {disfmarker}
Professor B: So {disfmarker}
PhD E: Sort of saving the result of the beam - forming .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: it seems to me that there 's {disfmarker} you know , there are good political reasons for {disfmarker} for doing this , just getting the data , because there 's a number of sites {disfmarker} like right now SRI is probably gonna invest a lot of internal funding into recording meetings also , which is good , um , but they 'll be recording with video and they 'll be {disfmarker} You know , it 'd be nice if we can have at least , uh , make use of the data that we 're recording as we go since it 's sort of {disfmarker} this is the first site that has really collected these really impromptu meetings , um , and just have this other information available . So , if we can get the investment in just for the infra infrastructure and then , I don't know , save it out or have whoever 's interested save that data out , transfer it there , it 'd be g it 'd be good to have {disfmarker} have the recording . I think .
Grad H: You mean to {disfmarker} to actually get a microphone array and do that ?
PhD A: Well , if {disfmarker} Even if we 're not {disfmarker}
Grad H: And video and {disfmarker}
PhD A: I 'm not sure about video . That 's sort of an {disfmarker} video has a little different nature since right n right now we 're all being recorded but we 're not being taped . Um , but it {disfmarker} definitely in the case of microphone arrays , since if there was a community interested in this , then {disfmarker}
Grad H: Well , but I think we need a researcher here who 's interested in it . To push it along .
Professor B: See the problem is it {disfmarker} it took , uh , uh , it took at least six months for Dan to get together the hardware and the software , and debug stuff in {disfmarker} in the microphones , and in the boxes . And it was a really big deal . And so I think we could get a microphone array in here pretty easily and , uh , have it mixed to {disfmarker} to one channel of some sort .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But , e I think for I mean , how we 're gonna decide {disfmarker} For {disfmarker} for maximum flexibility later you really don't want to end up with just one channel that 's pointed in the direction of the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the p the person with the maximum energy or something like that . I mean , you {disfmarker} you want actually to {disfmarker} you want actually to have multiple channels being recorded so that you can {disfmarker} And to do that , it {disfmarker} we 're going to end up greatly increasing the disk space that we use up , we also only have boards that will take up to sixteen channels and in {pause} this meeting , we 've got eight people and {disfmarker} and six mikes . And there we 're already using fourteen .
Grad H: And we actually only have fifteen .
Professor B: E
Grad H: One of them 's {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad H: Details .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad H: But fifteen , not sixteen .
PhD A: Well if there 's a way to say time {disfmarker} to sort of solve each of these f those {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: So suppose you can get an array in because there 's some person at Berkeley who 's interested and has some {pause} equipment , uh , and suppose we can {disfmarker} as we save it we can , you know , transfer it off to some other place that {disfmarker} that holds this {disfmarker} this data , who 's interested , and even if ICSI it itself isn't . Um , and it {disfmarker} it seems like as long as we can time align the beginning , do we need to mix it with the rest ? I don't know . You know ? The
Professor B: Yeah . So I think you 'd need a separate {disfmarker} a separate set up
PhD A: So {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor B: and the assumption that you could time align the two .
PhD A: I mean it 's just {disfmarker} it 's worth considering as sort of
Grad H: And y it 'd certainly gets skew .
PhD A: once you make the up front investment {comment} and can sort of save it out each time , and {disfmarker} and not have to worry about the disk space factor , then it mi it might be worth having the data .
Professor B: I 'm not so much worried about disk space actually . I mentioned that , b as a practical matter ,
Grad H: Just {disfmarker}
Professor B: but the real issue is that , uh , there is no way to do a recording extended to what we have now with low skew . So {pause} you would have a t completely separate set up ,
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: which would mean that the sampling times and so forth would be all over the place compared to this . So it would depend on the level of pr processing you were doing later , but if you 're d i the kind of person who 's doing array processing you actually care about funny little times . And {disfmarker} and so you actually wou would want to have a completely different set up than we have ,
PhD A: I see .
Professor B: one that would go up to thirty - two channels or something .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor B: So basically {disfmarker}
Grad H: Or a hundred thirty - two .
Professor B: or a hun Yeah . So , I 'm kinda skeptical , but um I think that {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor B: So , uh , I don't think we can share the resource in that way . But what we could do is if there was someone else who 's interested they could have a separate set up which they wouldn't be trying to synch with ours which might be useful for {disfmarker} for them .
PhD A: Right , I mean at least they 'd have the data and the transcripts ,
Professor B: And then we can offer up the room ,
PhD A: and {disfmarker} Right .
Professor B: Yeah , we can o offer the meetings , and the physical space , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} yeah , the transcripts , and so on .
PhD A: OK . Right , I mean , just {disfmarker} it 'd be nice if we have more information on the same data . You know , and {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: But it 's {disfmarker} if it 's impossible or if it 's a lot of effort then you have to just balance the two ,
Professor B: Well I thi
PhD A: so {disfmarker}
Professor B: yeah , the thing will be , u u in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} again , in talking to these other people to see what {disfmarker} you know , what {disfmarker} what we can do .
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: Uh , we 'll see .
PhD E: Is there an interest in getting video recordings for these meetings ?
Professor B: Right , so we have {disfmarker} we {disfmarker}
PhD E: I mean
Grad H: Yes , absolutely . But it 's exactly the same problem , that you have an infrastructure problem , you have a problem with people not wanting to be video taped , and you have the problem that no one who 's currently involved in the project is really hot to do it .
PhD E: Hmm . So there 's not enough interest to overcome all of {disfmarker}
Grad H: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Right . Internally , but I know there is interest from other places that are interested in looking at meeting data and having the video . So it 's just {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Yeah , w although I {disfmarker} m {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I have to u u mention the human subjects problems , {pause} that i increase with video .
PhD A: Right , that 's true .
Professor B: Yeah , so it 's , uh , people {disfmarker} people getting shy about it .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Professor B: There 's this human subjects problem . There 's the fact that then um , if {disfmarker} i I I 've heard comments about this before , " why don't you just put on a video camera ? " But you know , it 's sort of like saying , " uh , well we 're primarily interested in {disfmarker} in some dialogue things , uh , but , uh , why don't we just throw a microphone out there . " I mean , the thing is , once you actually have serious interest in any of these things then you actually have to put a lot of effort in .
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor B: And , uh , you really want to do it right .
Grad H: I know . Yep .
Professor B: So I think NIST or LDC , or somebody like that I think is much better shape to do all that . We {disfmarker} there will be other meeting recordings . We won't be the only place doing meeting recordings . We are doing what we 're doing .
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And , uh , hopefully it 'll be useful .
Postdoc G: I {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it occurred to me , has Don signed a human subject 's form ?
Grad H: Oh ! Probably not .
Postdoc G: A permission form ?
Grad H: Has Don {disfmarker} have you s did you si I thought you did actually .
Grad F: I was {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , I was {disfmarker} I was here {disfmarker} I was here before once .
Grad H: Didn't you read a digit string ?
PhD E: You were here at a meeting before .
Postdoc G: You were here at a meeting before .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad F: So .
Grad H: Yeah , and you {disfmarker} and you signed a form .
Grad F: Oh , I think so .
Postdoc G: Did you sign a form ?
Grad F: Did I ? I don't know .
Grad H: I 'm pretty sure . Well I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll get another one before the end of the meeting .
Postdoc G: OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad H: Thank you .
Grad F: Yeah .
Postdoc G: OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
Postdoc G: You don't {disfmarker} you don't have to leave for it .
Professor B: Yeah , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: But I just {disfmarker}
Grad F: Can I verbally consent ?
Postdoc G: you know .
Grad H: Well I can't , I 'm wired in .
Professor B: We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we don't , uh {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah . You 're on recor you 're being recorded
Postdoc G: o
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD A: and {disfmarker}
Professor B: we don't {disfmarker} we don't perform electro - shock during these meetings ,
Grad F: I don't care . You can do whatever you want with it .
Professor B: and {disfmarker}
PhD E: Usually .
Grad F: That 's fine .
Professor B: Yeah . OK . Uh , transcriptions .
Postdoc G: Transcriptions , OK . Um , I thought about {disfmarker} there are maybe three aspects of this . So first of all , um , I 've got eight transcribers . Uh , seven of them are linguists . One of them is a graduate student in psychology . Um , Each {disfmarker} I gave each of them , uh , their own data set . Two of them have already finished the data sets . And {pause} the meetings run , you know , let 's say an hour . Sometimes as man much as an hour and a half .
PhD E: How big is the data set ?
Postdoc G: Oh , it 's {disfmarker} what I mean is one meeting .
PhD E: Ah , OK .
Postdoc G: Each {disfmarker} each person got their own meeting . I didn't want to have any conflicts of , you know , of {disfmarker} of when to stop transcribing this one or {disfmarker} So I wanted to keep it clear whose data were whose , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and so {disfmarker}
PhD E: Uh - huh .
Postdoc G: And , uh , meetings , you know , I think that they 're {disfmarker} they go as long as a {disfmarker} almost two hours in some {disfmarker} in some cases . So , you know , that means {disfmarker} you know , if we 've got two already finished and they 're working on {disfmarker} Uh , right now all eight of them have differe uh , uh , additional data sets . That means potentially as many as ten might be finished by the end of the month .
PhD E: Wow .
Postdoc G: Hope so . But the pre - segmentation really helps a huge amount .
PhD C: OK .
Postdoc G: And , uh , also Dan Ellis 's innovation of the , uh {disfmarker} the multi - channel to here really helped a r a lot in terms of clearing {disfmarker} clearing up h hearings that involve overlaps . But , um , just out of curiosity I asked one of them how long {pause} it was taking her , one of these two who has already finished her data set . She said it takes about , uh , sixty minutes transcription for every five minutes of real time . So it 's about twelve to one , which is what we were thinking .
Grad H: or Yep .
Postdoc G: It 's well in the range .
Grad H: It 's pretty good .
Postdoc G: OK . Uh , these still , when they 're finished , um , that means that they 're finished with their pass through . They still need to be edited and all but {disfmarker} But it 's word level , speaker change , the things that were mentioned . OK , now I wanted to mention the , um , teleconference I had with , uh , Jonathan Fiscus . We spoke for an hour and a half and , um , had an awful lot of things in common .
Grad H: Hmm .
Postdoc G: He , um , um , he in indicated to me that they 've {disfmarker} that he 's been , uh , looking , uh , uh , spending a lot of time with {disfmarker} I 'm not quite sure the connection , but spending a lot of time with the ATLAS system . And I guess that {disfmarker} I mean , I {disfmarker} I need to read up on that . And there 's a web site that has lots of papers . But it looks to me like that 's the name that has developed for the system that Bird and Liberman developed {comment} for the annotated {pause} graphs approach .
Grad H: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc G: So what he wants me to do and what we {disfmarker} what we will do and {disfmarker} uh , is to provide them with the u already transcribed meeting for him to be able to experiment with in this ATLAS System . And they do have some sort of software , at least that 's my impression , related to ATLAS and that he wants to experiment with taking our data and putting them in that format , and see how that works out . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I explained to him in {disfmarker} in detail the , uh , conventions that we 're using here in this {disfmarker} in this word level transcript . And , um , you know , I {disfmarker} I explained , you know , the reasons that {disfmarker} that we were not coding more elaborately and {disfmarker} and the focus on reliability . He expressed a lot of interest in reliability . It 's like he 's {disfmarker} he 's really up on these things . He 's {disfmarker} he 's very {disfmarker} Um , independently he asked , " well what about reliability ? " So , {vocalsound} he 's interested in the consistency of the encoding and that sort of thing . OK , um {disfmarker}
PhD A: Sorry , can you explain what the ATLAS {disfmarker} I 'm not familiar with this ATLAS system .
Postdoc G: Well , you know , at this point I think {disfmarker} Uh , well Adam 's read more {disfmarker} in more detail than I have on this . I need to acquaint myself more with it . But , um , there {disfmarker} there is a way of viewing {disfmarker} Uh , whenever you have coding categories , um , and you 're dealing with uh , a taxonomy , then you can have branches that {disfmarker} that have alternative , uh , choices that you could use for each {disfmarker} each of them . And it just ends up looking like a graphical representation .
Grad H: Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} Is ATLAS the {disfmarker} his annotated transcription graph stuff ? I don't remember the acronym . The {disfmarker} the one {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} what I think you 're referring to , they {disfmarker} they have this concept of an an annotated transcription graph representation .
PhD A: Oh . Oh .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Grad H: And that 's basically what I based the format that I did {disfmarker} I based it on their work almost directly , in combination with the TEI stuff . And so it 's very , very similar . And so it 's {disfmarker} it 's a data representation and a set of tools for manipulating transcription graphs of various types .
PhD E: Is this the project that 's sort of , uh , between , uh , NIST and {disfmarker} and , uh , a couple of other places ?
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Including LDC .
PhD E: Yeah ,
Postdoc G: I think so .
Grad H: Yep .
PhD E: y right , OK .
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm . Then there 's their web site that has lots of papers . And I looked through them and they mainly had to do with this , um , this , uh , tree structure , uh , annotated tree diagram thing .
PhD A: Mmm .
Postdoc G: So , um , um {disfmarker} and , you know , in terms of like the conventions that I 'm a that I 've adopted , it {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there 's no conflict at all .
Grad H: Right .
Postdoc G: And he was , you know , very interested . And , " oh , and how 'd you handle this ? " And I said , " well , you know , this way " and {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} and we had a really nice conversation . Um , OK , now I also wanted to say in a different {disfmarker} a different direction is , Brian Kingsbury . So , um , I corresponded briefly with him . I , uh , c I {disfmarker} He still has an account here . I told him he could SSH on and use multi - trans , and have a look at the already done , uh , transcription . And he {disfmarker} and he did . And what he said was that , um , what they 'll be providing is {disfmarker} will not be as fine grained in terms of the time information . And , um , that 's , uh {disfmarker} You know , I need to get back to him and {disfmarker} and , uh , you know , explore that a little bit more and see what they 'll be giving us in specific ,
PhD A: Hmm .
PhD E: The p the people {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: but I just haven't had time yet .
PhD E: The {disfmarker} the folks that they 're , uh , subcontracting out the transcription to , are they like court reporters
Postdoc G: Sorry , what ? Yes .
PhD E: or {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Apparently {disfmarker} Well , I get the sense they 're kind of like that . Like it 's like a pool of {disfmarker} of somewhat uh , secretarial {disfmarker} I don't think that they 're court reporters . I don't think they have the special keyboards and that {disfmarker} and that type of training .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc G: I {disfmarker} I get the sense they 're more secretarial . And that , um , uh , what they 're doing is giving them {disfmarker}
PhD E: Hmm . Like medical transcriptionist type people {disfmarker}
Grad H: Nu - it 's mostly {disfmarker} it 's for their speech recognition products ,
PhD E: But aren't {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Yep .
Grad H: that they 've hired these people to do .
PhD E: Oh , so they 're hiring them , they 're coming . It 's not a service they send the tapes out to .
Grad H: Well they {disfmarker} they do send it out but my understanding is that that 's all this company does is transcriptions for IBM for their speech product .
PhD E: Ah ! Oh . OK . I gotcha .
Grad H: So most of it 's ViaVoice , people reading their training material for that .
PhD E: I see .
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: I see .
Postdoc G: Up to now it 's been monologues , uh , as far my understood .
Grad H: Yep , exactly .
Postdoc G: And {disfmarker} and what they 're doing is
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Grad H: Yep .
Postdoc G: Brian himself downloaded {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} So , um , Adam sent them a CD and Brian himself downloaded {disfmarker} uh , cuz , you know , I mean , we wanted to have it so that they were in familiar f terms with what they wanted to do . He downloaded {pause} from the CD onto audio tapes . And apparently he did it one channel per audio tape . So each of these people is {pause} transcribing from one channel .
Grad H: Right .
PhD E: Oh .
Postdoc G: And then what he 's going to do is check it , a before they go be beyond the first one . Check it and , you know , adjust it , and all that .
PhD E: So each person gets one of these channels {disfmarker}
Grad H: Right .
Professor B: So if they hear something off in the distance they don't {disfmarker} they just go {disfmarker}
PhD E: OK .
Postdoc G: I {disfmarker} I don't know .
Grad H: Well , but that 's OK , because , you know , you 'll do all them and then combine them .
PhD E: But there could be problems , right ? with that .
Postdoc G: I have t I , you know I {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yep .
Postdoc G: I think it would be difficult to do it that way . I really
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD E: Well if you 're tran if you got that channel right there {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: d uh , in my case {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad H: No , no . We 're talking about close talking , not the {disfmarker} not the desktop .
PhD D: No , close talk .
Professor B: Are you ?
Postdoc G: Yes . Well I th I think so .
Grad H: I sure hope so . It 'd be really foolish to do otherwise .
Postdoc G: Yeah , I {disfmarker} I would think that it would be kind of hard to come out with {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD A: I {disfmarker} I think it 's sort of hard just playing the {disfmarker} you know , just having played the individual files . And I {disfmarker} I mean , I know you . I know what your voice sounds like . I 'm sort of familiar with {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD A: Uh , it 's pretty hard to follow , especially
Grad H: One side .
PhD A: there are a lot of words that are so reduced phonetically that make sense when you know what the person was saying before .
Postdoc G: I agree .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah , that 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Uh , it sort of depends where you are in {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: And especially since a lot of these {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad H: But I mean we had this {disfmarker} we 've had this discussion many times .
Postdoc G: Yeah , we have .
Grad H: And the answer is we don't actually know the answer because we haven't tried both ways .
Postdoc G: Well , except I can say that my transcribers use the mixed signal mostly
Grad H: So . Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Right .
Postdoc G: unless there 's a huge disparity in terms of the volume on {disfmarker} on the mix . In which case , you know , they {disfmarker} they wouldn't be able to catch anything except the prominent {comment} channel ,
Grad H: Right .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc G: then they 'll switch between .
Grad H: Well I think that {disfmarker} that might change if you wanted really fine time markings .
Postdoc G: But {disfmarker} but really {disfmarker} Well , OK .
Grad H: So .
Professor B: But they 're not giving f really fine time markings .
Postdoc G: Yeah , well {disfmarker}
PhD A: Actually , are th so {vocalsound} are they giving any time markings ?
Grad H: Right .
PhD A: In other words , if {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Well , I have to ask him .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc G: And that 's {disfmarker} that 's my email to him . That needs to be forthcoming .
PhD A: Cuz {disfmarker} OK .
Postdoc G: But {disfmarker} but the , uh {disfmarker} I did want to say that it 's hard to follow one channel of a conversation even if you know the people , and if you 're dealing furthermore with highly abstract network concepts you 've never heard of {disfmarker} So , you know , one of these people was {disfmarker} was transcribing the , uh , networks group talk and she said , " I don't really know what a lot of these abbreviations are , " " but I just put them in parentheses cuz that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the convention and I just " {disfmarker} Cuz you know , if you don't know {disfmarker}
Grad H: Oh , I 'd be curious to {disfmarker} to look at that .
PhD E: Just out of curiosity , I mean {disfmarker}
Grad H: They also all have h heavy accents .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Grad H: The networks group meetings are all {disfmarker}
PhD E: Given all of the effort that is going on here in transcribing why do we have I B M doing it ? Why not just do it all ourselves ?
Professor B: Um , it 's historical . I mean , uh , some point ago we thought that uh , it {disfmarker} " boy , we 'd really have to ramp up to do that " ,
PhD C: Uh - huh .
PhD D: No , just {disfmarker}
Professor B: you know , like we just did , and , um , here 's , uh , a {disfmarker} a , uh , collaborating institution that 's volunteered to do it .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , that was a contribution they could make . Uh in terms of time , money , you know ?
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And it still might be a good thing
PhD E: I 'm just wondering now {disfmarker}
PhD A: Actu yeah , Mar - Mari asked me the same question as sort of {disfmarker}
Professor B: but {disfmarker}
PhD E: Well , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm wondering now if it 's {disfmarker}
Grad H: Well we can talk about more details later .
PhD A: um , you know , yeah , whether to {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , so .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: We 'll see . I mean , I think , th you know , they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they 've proceeded along a bit . Let 's see what comes out of it , and {disfmarker} and , uh , you know , have some more discussions with them .
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm . It 's very {disfmarker} a real benefit having Brian involved because of his knowledge of what the {disfmarker} how the data need to be used and so what 's useful to have in the format .
Grad H: Yeah .
Professor B: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Grad H: So , um , Liz , with {disfmarker} with the SRI recognizer , {comment} can it make use of some time marks ?
PhD A: OK , so this is a , um ,
Grad H: I {disfmarker} I guess I don't know what that means .
PhD A: and actually I should say this is what Don has b uh , he 's already been really helpful in , uh , chopping up these {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so first of all you {disfmarker} um , I mean , for the SRI front - end , we really need to chop things up into pieces that are f not too huge . Um , but second of all , uh {disfmarker} in general because some of these channels , I 'd say , like , I don't know , at least half of them probably {comment} on average are g are ha are {disfmarker} have a lot of cross - ta sorry , some of the segments have a lot of cross - talk . Um , it 's good to get sort of short segments if you 're gonna do recognition , especially forced alignment . So , uh , Don has been taking a first stab actually using Jane 's first {disfmarker} the fir the meeting that Jane transcribed which we did have some problems with , and Thilo , uh , I think told me why this was , but that people were switching microphones around {comment} in the very beginning , so {disfmarker} the SRI re
PhD C: No , th Yeah . No . They {disfmarker} they were not switching them but what they were {disfmarker} they were adjusting them ,
PhD A: and they {disfmarker} They were not {disfmarker}
PhD C: so .
Grad F: Mmm .
Grad H: Adjusting . Oh .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: And aft after a minute or so it 's {disfmarker} it 's way better .
PhD A: So we have to sort of normalize {comment} the front - end and so forth , and have these small segments .
PhD C: So {disfmarker} Yep .
PhD A: So we 've taken that and chopped it into pieces based always on your {disfmarker} your , um , cuts that you made on the mixed signal . And so that every {disfmarker} every speaker has the same cuts . And if they have speech in it we run it through . And if they don't have speech in it we don't run it through . And we base that knowledge on the transcription .
Grad H: On {disfmarker} Just on the marks . Right ?
PhD A: Um , the problem is if we have no time marks , then for forced alignment we actually don't know where {disfmarker} you know , in the signal the transcriber heard that word . And so {disfmarker}
Grad H: Oh , I see ,
PhD A: I mean , if {disfmarker} if it 's a whole conversation and we get a long , uh , you know , par paragraph of {disfmarker} of talk ,
Grad H: it 's for the length . I see .
PhD A: uh , I don't know how they do this . Um , we actually don't know which piece goes where .
Grad H: I understand .
PhD A: And , um , I think with {disfmarker}
PhD E: Well you would need to {disfmarker} like a forced alignment before you did the chopping , right ?
PhD A: No , we used the fact that {disfmarker} So when Jane transcribes them the way she has transcribers doing this , whether it 's with the pre - segmentation or not ,
Grad H: It 's already chunked .
PhD A: they have a chunk and then they transcribes {comment} the words in the chunk . And maybe they choose the chunk or now they use a pre - segmentation and then correct it if necessary . But there 's first a chunk and then a transcription .
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Then a chunk , then a transcription . That 's great , cuz the recognizer can {disfmarker}
Grad H: Uh , it 's all pretty good sized for the recognizer also .
PhD A: Right , and it {disfmarker} it helps that it 's made based on sort of heuristics and human ear I think .
Postdoc G: Good . Oh good .
PhD A: Th - but there 's going to be a real problem , uh , even if we chop up based on speech silence these , uh , the transcripts from I B M , we don't actually know where the words were , which segment they belonged to .
Grad H: Right .
PhD A: So that 's sort of what I 'm {pause} worried about right now .
PhD E: Why not do a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a forced alignment ?
Grad H: That 's what she 's saying , is that you can't .
PhD A: If you do a forced alignment on something really {disfmarker}
Grad H: Got uh six sixty minutes of {disfmarker}
PhD A: well even if you do it on something really long you need to know {disfmarker} you can always chop it up but you need to have a reference of which words went with which , uh , chop .
Postdoc G: Now wasn't {disfmarker} I thought that one of the proposals was that IBM was going to do an initial forced alignment ,
PhD A: So {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: after they {disfmarker}
Grad H: Yeah , but {disfmarker}
Professor B: I {disfmarker} I think that they are ,
Grad H: We 'll have to talk to Brian .
Professor B: um , yeah , I 'm sure they will and so we {disfmarker} we have to have a dialogue with them about it .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: I mean , it sounds like Liz has some concerns
PhD A: Maybe they have some {disfmarker} you know , maybe actually there is some , even if they 're not fine grained , maybe the transcribers {disfmarker}
Professor B: and {disfmarker}
PhD A: uh , I don't know , maybe it 's saved out in pieces or {disfmarker} or something . That would help .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
PhD A: But , uh , it 's just an unknown right now .
Postdoc G: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I need to {disfmarker} to write to him .
PhD A: So .
Postdoc G: I just {disfmarker} you know , it 's like I got over - taxed with the timing .
PhD A: Right . But the {disfmarker} it is true that the segments {disfmarker} I haven't tried the segments that Thilo gave you but the segments that in your first meeting are great .
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: I mean , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good length .
Postdoc G: A good size . Good .
PhD A: Right , cuz {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Well , I {disfmarker} I was thinking it would be fun to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} uh , uh , if {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} wouldn't mind , {comment} {vocalsound} to give us a pre - segmentation .
PhD A: y yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc G: Uh , maybe you have one already of that first m of the meeting that uh , the first transcribed meeting , the one that I transcribed .
PhD C: Um , I 'm sure I have some
Postdoc G: Do you have a {disfmarker} could you generate a pre - segmentation ?
Grad H: February sixteenth I think .
PhD C: but {disfmarker} but that 's the one where we 're , um , trai training on , so that 's a little bit {disfmarker}
Grad H: Oh .
Postdoc G: Oh , I see .
PhD C: It 's a little bit at odd to {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Oh , darn . Of course , of course , of course . Yeah , OK .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD A: And actually as you get transcripts just , um , for new meetings , {comment} um , we can try {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Uh - huh .
PhD A: I mean , the {disfmarker} the more data we have to try the {disfmarker} the alignments on , um , the better . So it 'd be good for {disfmarker} just to know as transcriptions are coming through the pipeline from the transcribers , just to sort of {disfmarker} we 're playing around with sort of uh , parameters f on the recognizer ,
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: cuz that would be helpful . Especially as you get , en more voices .
Postdoc G: Excellent , good .
PhD A: The first meeting had I think just four people ,
PhD C: Four speakers , yeah .
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: yeah .
Postdoc G: Yeah , Liz and I spoke d w at some length on Tuesday and {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} and I was planning to do just a {disfmarker} a preliminary look over of the two that are finished and then give them to you .
PhD A: Oh , great , great .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
PhD A: So .
Professor B: That 's great . I guess the other thing , I {disfmarker} I can't remember if we discussed this in the meeting but , uh , I know you and I talked about this a little bit , there was an issue of , uh , suppose we get in the , uh , I guess it 's enviable position although maybe it 's just saying where the weak link is in the chain , uh , where we {disfmarker} we , uh {disfmarker} uh , we have all the data transcribed and we have these transcribers and we were {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} we 're still a bit slow on feeding {disfmarker} at that point we 've caught up and the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the , uh , the weak link is {disfmarker} is recording meetings . OK , um , two questions come , is you know what {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} how do we {disfmarker} uh , it 's not really a problem at the moment cuz we haven't reached that point but how do we step out the recorded meetings ? And the other one is , um , uh , is there some good use that we can make of the transcribers to do other things ? So , um , I {disfmarker} I can't remember how much we talked about this in this meeting but there was {disfmarker}
Grad H: We had spoken with them about it .
Postdoc G: And there is one use that {disfmarker} that also we discussed which was when , uh , Dave finishes the {disfmarker} and maybe it 's already finished {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the modification to multi - trans which will allow fine grained encoding of overlaps . Uh , then it would be very {disfmarker} these people would be very good to shift over to finer grain encoding of overlaps . It 's just a matter of , you know , providing {disfmarker} So if right now you have two overlapping segments in the same time bin , well with {disfmarker} with the improvement in the database {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the , uh , sorry , in the interface , it 'd be possible to , um , you know , just do a click and drag thing , and get the {disfmarker} uh , the specific place of each of those , the time tag associated with the beginning and end of {disfmarker} of each segment .
Professor B: Right , so I think we talking about three level {disfmarker} three things .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: One {disfmarker} one was uh , we had s had some discussion in the past about some very high level labelings ,
Postdoc G: Yeah . The types of overlaps {disfmarker}
Professor B: types of overlaps , and so forth that {disfmarker} that someone could do . Second was , uh , somewhat lower level
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: just doing these more precise timings . And the third one is {disfmarker} is , uh , just a completely wild hair brained idea that I have which is that , um , if , uh {disfmarker} if we have time and people are able to do it , to take some subset of the data and do some very fine grained analysis of the speech . For instance , uh , marking in some overlapping {disfmarker} potentially overlapping fashion , uh , the value of , uh , ar articulatory features .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Professor B: You know , just sort of say , OK , it 's voiced from here to here , there 's {disfmarker} it 's nasal from here to here , and so forth . Um , as opposed to doing phonetic {disfmarker} uh , you know , phonemic and the phonetic analysis ,
Grad H:
Professor B: and , uh , assuming , uh , articulatory feature values for those {disfmarker} those things . Um , obviously that 's extremely time - consuming . Uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: That would be really valuable I think .
Professor B: but , uh , we could do it on some small subset .
Postdoc G: Also if you 're dealing with consonants that would be easier than vowels , wouldn't it ? I mean , I would think that {disfmarker} that , uh , being able to code that there 's a {disfmarker} a fricative extending from here to here would be a lot easier than classifying precisely which vowel that was .
Grad H: Which one .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc G: I think vowels {disfmarker} vowels are I think harder .
Professor B: Well , yeah ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: but I think also it 's just the issue that {disfmarker} that when you look at the {disfmarker} u w u u when you look at Switchboard for instance very close up there are places where whether it 's a consonant or a vowel you still have trouble calling it a particular phone
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: at that point
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm , OK .
Grad H: Yeah , but {disfmarker} but just saying what the {disfmarker}
Professor B: because it 's {disfmarker} you know , there 's this movement from here to here
Postdoc G: Yeah , I 'm sure . Uh , yeah , I {disfmarker} I know .
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and it 's {disfmarker} so I
PhD E: You 're saying r sort of remove the high level constraints and go bottom - up .
Professor B: Yeah , describe {disfmarker} describe it .
PhD E: Then just say {disfmarker}
Grad H: Yep , just features .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor B: Now I 'm suggesting articulatory features . Maybe there 's {disfmarker} there 's even a better way to do it but it {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but that 's , you know , sort of a traditional way of describing these things ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: um , and {disfmarker} uh , I mean , actually this might be a g neat thing to talk to {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: That 's nice .
PhD E: Acoustic features versus psychological categories .
Professor B: Sort of . I mean , it 's still {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Professor B: some sort of categories but {disfmarker} but something that allows for overlapping change of these things and then this would give some more ground work for people who were building statistical models that allowed for overlapping changes , different timing changes as opposed to just " click , you 're now in this state , which corresponds to this speech sound " and so on .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD A: So this is like gestural {disfmarker} uh , these g
Professor B: Yeah , something like that .
PhD A: Right . OK .
Professor B: I mean , actually if we get into that it might be good to , uh , uh , haul John Ohala into this
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: and ask his {disfmarker} his views on it I think .
Grad H: Yeah .
PhD A: But is {disfmarker} is the goal there to have this on meeting data ,
Postdoc G: Excellent .
PhD A: like so that you can do far field studies {comment} of those gestures or {disfmarker} um , or is it because you think there 's a different kind of actual production in meetings {comment} that people use ? Or {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: No , I think {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for that purpose I 'm just viewing meetings as being a {disfmarker} a neat way to get people talking naturally . And then you have i and then {disfmarker} and then it 's natural in all senses ,
PhD E: Just a source of data ?
PhD A: I see .
Professor B: in the sense that you have microphones that are at a distance that you know , one might have , and you have the close mikes , and you have people talking naturally . And the overlap is just indicative of the fact that people are talking naturally ,
PhD A: Uh - huh .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: right ? So {disfmarker} so I think that given that it 's that kind of corpus ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: if it 's gonna be a very useful corpus um , if you say w OK , we 've limited the use by some of our , uh , uh , censored choices , we don't have the video , we don't {disfmarker} and so forth , but there 's a lot of use that we could make of it by expanding the annotation choices .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And , uh , most of the things we 've talked about have been fairly high level , and being kind of a bottom - up person I thought maybe we 'd , {vocalsound} do some of the others .
Grad H: Hmm .
PhD A: Right . Yeah , that would be good .
Postdoc G: It 's a nice balance .
Professor B: Yeah .
Postdoc G: That would be really nice to offer those things with that wide range .
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: Yeah and hopefully someone would make use of it .
Postdoc G: Really nice .
Professor B: I mean , people didn't {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Professor B: uh , I mean , people have made a lot of use of {disfmarker} of TIMIT and , uh w due to its markings , and then {pause} the Switchboard transcription thing , well I think has been very useful for a lot of people .
Grad H: Right .
PhD A: That 's true .
Professor B: So {disfmarker}
PhD A: I guess I wanted to , um , sort of make a pitch for trying to collect more meetings .
Postdoc G: Cool .
PhD A: Um ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: I actually I talked to Chuck Fillmore and I think they 've what , vehemently said no before but this time he wasn't vehement and he said you know , " well , Liz , come to the meeting tomorrow
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: and try to convince people " . So I 'm gonna {pause} try . Go to their meeting tomorrow and see if we can try , uh , to convince them
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm . Good .
Professor B: Cuz they have something like three or four different meetings ,
PhD A: because they have {disfmarker} And they have very interesting meetings from the point of view of a very different type of {disfmarker} of talk than we have here
Professor B: right ?
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Talk {disfmarker}
PhD A: and definitely than the front end meeting , probably . Um {disfmarker}
PhD E: You mean in terms of the topic {disfmarker} topics ?
PhD A: Well , yes and in terms of the {disfmarker} the fact that they 're describing abstract things and , uh , just dialogue - wise ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: right .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Um , so I 'll try . And then the other thing is , I don't know if this is at all useful , but I asked Lila if I can maybe go around and talk to the different departments in this building to see if there 's any groups that , for a free lunch ,
Professor B: Yes .
PhD A: if we can still offer that , might be willing {disfmarker}
Professor B: Great .
Grad H: You mean non - ICSI ?
PhD A: non - ICSI , non - academic ,
Grad H: Yeah , I guess you {disfmarker} you can try
PhD A: you know , like government people ,
Grad H: but {disfmarker}
PhD A: I don't know .
Grad H: The problem is so much of their stuff is confidential .
PhD A: So .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Grad H: It would be very hard for them .
PhD A: Is {disfmarker} is it in these departments ?
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc G: Also it does seem like it takes us way out of the demographic . I mean , it seems like we {disfmarker} we had this idea before of having like linguistics students brought down for free lunches
Grad H: Well , tha I think that 's her point .
Postdoc G: and that 's a nice idea .
PhD A: Right , and then we could also {disfmarker} we might try advertising again because I think it 'd be good if {disfmarker} if we can get a few different sort of non - internal types of meetings
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: and just also more data . So .
PhD E: Does {disfmarker} does John Ohala have weekly phonetics lab meetings ?
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
Grad H: And I think , uh , if we could get {disfmarker}
PhD A: So I actually wrote to him and he answered , " great , that sounds really interesting " . But I never heard back because we didn't actually advertise openly . We a I mean w I told {disfmarker} I d asked him privately . Um , and it is a little bit of a trek for campus {pause} folks .
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
Grad H: Yeah . You might give them a free lunch .
PhD A: Um , so it 's still worthwhile .
Grad H: But , um , it would be nice if we got someone other than me who knew how to set it up and could do the recording
PhD A: So {disfmarker}
Grad H: so u I didn't have to do it each time .
PhD A: Exactly , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Yeah . That 's right .
PhD A: and I was thinking {disfmarker}
Professor B: He - he 's supposed {disfmarker} he 's supposed to be trained {vocalsound} to do it .
PhD A: Yeah . Plus we could also get you know , a s a student .
Grad H: OK , next week {pause} you 're going to do it all .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: And I 'm willing to try to learn . I mean , I 'm {disfmarker} I would do my best . Um , the other thing is that {disfmarker} there was a number of things at the transcription side that , um , transcribers can do , like dialogue act tagging ,
Grad H: It 's not that hard .
PhD A: disfluency tagging , um , things that are in the speech that are actually something we 're y {comment} working on for language modeling . And Mari 's also interested in it , Andreas as well . So if you wanna process a utterance and the first thing they say is , " well " , and that " well " is coded as some kind of interrupt u tag . Uh , and things like that , um , th
Postdoc G: Of course some of that can be li done lexically .
PhD A: A lot of it can be done {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: And I also {disfmarker} they are doing disfluency tagging to some degree already .
PhD A: Great . So a {disfmarker} a lot of this kind of {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Yeah .
PhD A: I think there 's a second pass and I don't really know what would exist in it . But there 's definitely a second pass worth doing to maybe encode some kinds of , you know , is it a question or not ,
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: or {disfmarker} um , that maybe these transcribers could do . So {disfmarker} Yeah .
Postdoc G: They 'd be really good . They 're {disfmarker} they 're very {disfmarker} they 're very consistent .
PhD A: That 'd be great .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc G: Uh , I wanted to {disfmarker} whi while we 're {disfmarker} Uh , so , to return just briefly to this question of more meeting data , um {disfmarker} I have two questions . One of them is , um , Jerry Feldman 's group , they {disfmarker} they , uh , are they {disfmarker} I know that they recorded one meeting . Are they willing ?
Professor B: I think they 're open to it . I think , you know , all these things are {disfmarker}
PhD A: Oh , yeah .
Professor B: I think there 's {disfmarker} we should go beyond , uh , ICSI but , I mean , there 's a lot of stuff happening at ICSI that we 're not getting now that we could .
PhD A: Oh , that we could .
Professor B: So it 's just {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: OK . I thought that all these people had sort of said " no " twice already .
Professor B: Yeah . So the {disfmarker}
PhD A: If that 's not the case then {disfmarker}
Professor B: No , no . No . So th there was the thing in Fillmore 's group but even there he hadn't {disfmarker} What he 'd said " no " to was for the main meeting . But they have several smaller meetings a week ,
Grad H: So .
Professor B: and , uh , the notion was raised before that that could happen . And it just , you know {disfmarker} it just didn't come together
PhD A: Just {disfmarker} OK .
PhD E: Well , and {disfmarker} and the other thing too is when they originally said " no " they didn't know about this post - editing capability thing .
Professor B: but {disfmarker}
PhD A: Right .
Postdoc G: Oh .
Professor B: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .
PhD A: Right . That was a big fear .
PhD E: So .
Postdoc G: That 's important .
Professor B: Yeah , so I mean there 's possibilities there . I think Jerry 's group , yes .
PhD A: OK .
Professor B: Uh , there 's {disfmarker} there 's , uh , the networks group , uh , I don't {disfmarker} Do they still meeting regularly or {disfmarker} ?
Grad H: Well , I don't know if they meet regularly or not but they are no longer recording .
Professor B: But I mean , ha ha have they said they don't want to anymore or {disfmarker} ?
Grad H: Um , ugh , what was his name ?
Professor B: Uh , i i
Postdoc G: Joe Sokol ?
Grad H: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad H: When {disfmarker} with him gone , it sorta trickled off .
Professor B: OK , so they 're down to three or four people
Grad H: They {disfmarker} and they stopped {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: but the thing is three or four people is OK .
Grad H: Yep .
Postdoc G: We might be able to get the administration {disfmarker}
Grad H: Well he was sort of my contact , so I just need to find out who 's running it now .
Professor B: OK .
Grad H: So .
Postdoc G: I see that Lila has a luncheon meeting in here periodically .
PhD A: Yeah , I mean , it {disfmarker} One thing that would be nice
Postdoc G: I don't know {disfmarker}
PhD A: and this {disfmarker} it sounds bizarre but , I 'd really like to look at {disfmarker} to get some meetings where there 's a little bit of heated discussion , like ar arguments and {disfmarker} or emotion , and things like that . And so I was thinking if there 's any like Berkeley political groups or something . I mean , that 'd be perfect . Some group , " yes , we must {disfmarker} "
Grad H: Who 's willing to get recorded and distributed ?
PhD A: Well , you know , something {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah , I don't think the more political argumentative ones would be willing to {disfmarker}
PhD A: Um {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah , with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with potential use from the defense department .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: Well , OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: No , but maybe stu student , uh , groups or , um , film - makers , or som Something a little bit colorful .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah . {vocalsound} Exactly .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Grad H: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , th there 's a problem there in terms of , uh , the um commercial value of {disfmarker} of st uh ,
Postdoc G: Yeah , of course there is this problem though , that if we give them the chance to excise later we e {vocalsound} might end up with like five minutes out of a f {comment} {pause} of m one hour
PhD D: Film - maker .
Grad H: Of beeps ,
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad H: yeah .
PhD A: And I don't mean that they 're angry
PhD D: Is {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: of {disfmarker} {comment} Yes . Really .
PhD A: but just something with some more variation in prosodic contours and so forth would be neat . So if anyone has ideas , I 'm willing to do the leg work to go try to talk to people but I don't really know which groups are worth pursuing .
Postdoc G: Well there was this K P F A
Grad H: No that 's {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: but {disfmarker} OK .
Grad H: Legal .
Postdoc G: OK , OK .
Professor B: it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it turned out to be a bit of a problem .
PhD A: Or {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: And I had one other {disfmarker} one other aspect of this which is , um , uh , uh , Jonathan Fiscus expressed primar uh y a major interest in having meetings which were all English speakers . Now he wasn't trying to shape us in terms of what we gather
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc G: but that 's what he wanted me to show him . So I 'm giving him our , um {disfmarker} our initial meeting because he asked for all English . And I think we don't have a lot of all English meetings right now .
Professor B: Of all {disfmarker} all nat all native speakers .
PhD E: Did he mean , uh {disfmarker} did he mean and non - British ?
Grad H: Well {disfmarker}
PhD C: The all native .
Postdoc G: That 's what I mean , yeah .
Grad H: Well if he meant and non - British I think we have zero .
Postdoc G: He doesn't care . No . Eh , well , British is OK .
PhD E: He said British was OK ?
Postdoc G: But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} Sure , sure , sure .
Professor B: Why ?
Grad H: British is English ?
PhD C:
Postdoc G: Yeah . Different varieties of English .
PhD C: Ooo , ooo .
Professor B: Well , I don't {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} I don't think {disfmarker} if he didn't say that {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Native speaking . Native speaking English .
Grad H: I bet he meant native speaking American .
Postdoc G: Yes .
Professor B: I bet he did .
PhD C: American English ?
Postdoc G: Oh , really .
Grad H: So , why would he care ?
PhD E: Knowing the application {disfmarker}
PhD A: That 's {disfmarker}
Professor B: I remember wh I I remember a study {disfmarker}
PhD A: I was thinking , knowing the , uh , n National Institute of Standards , it is all {disfmarker}
Professor B: I remember a study that BBN did where they trained on {disfmarker} this was in Wall Street Journal days or something , they trained on American English and then they tested on , uh , different native speakers from different areas . And , uh , uh , the worst match was people whose native tongue was Mandarin Chinese . The second worst was British English .
Postdoc G: That 's funny .
Professor B: So h it 's , you know , t
Postdoc G: Alright . And so that would make sense .
Professor B: the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} German was much better ,
PhD C: Ooo , ooo .
Postdoc G: I didn't have the context of that .
Professor B: it was Swiss w Yeah , so it 's {disfmarker} so I think , you know , if he 's {disfmarker} if he 's thinking in terms of recognition kind of technology I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think he would probably want , uh {vocalsound} American English ,
Postdoc G: All America , OK .
Grad H: I wonder if we have any .
Professor B: yeah . It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} yeah , unless we 're gonna train with a whole bunch of {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: I think that the {disfmarker} Feldman 's meetings tend to be more that way , aren't they ? I mean , I sort of feel like they have {disfmarker}
Professor B: I think so ,
Grad H: Maybe .
PhD A: Yeah ,
Professor B: yeah .
Grad H: Maybe .
PhD A: mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: Mmm .
Grad H: And maybe there are a few of {disfmarker} with us where it was {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad H: you know , Dan wasn't there and before Jose started coming ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad H: and {disfmarker}
Professor B: It 's pretty tough , uh , this group . Yeah .
Grad H: Yeah .
PhD C: Mmm .
Professor B: So , uh , what about {disfmarker} what about people who involved in some artistic endeavor ?
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: I mean , film - making or something like that .
PhD A: Exactly , that 's what I was {disfmarker}
Professor B: You 'd think like they would be {disfmarker}
PhD D: A film - maker .
PhD A: something where there {disfmarker} there is actually discussion where there 's no right or wrong answer but {disfmarker} but it 's a matter of opinion kind of thing . Uh , anyway , if you {disfmarker} if you have ideas {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: It 's be fun .
Grad H: RASTA . PLP . RASTA . PLP .
PhD D: Yes .
Grad F: We can just discu we can just have a political discussion one day .
PhD A: Yeah , we could {disfmarker}
PhD E: A any department that calls itself science
PhD D: Department .
Grad F: Uh , I could make that pretty {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad H: Well , like computer science .
PhD D: Computer sci
Grad H: That {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: We could get Julia Child . I know .
PhD A: I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm actually serious
Grad H: That 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: because , uh , you know , we have the set up here
Grad H: Got a ticket .
Professor B: Yeah , I know you are .
PhD A: and {disfmarker} and that {disfmarker} that has a chance to give us some very interesting fun data . So if anyone has ideas ,
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: if you know any groups that are m you know ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad H: Well I had asked some {disfmarker} some of the students at the business school .
PhD A: student groups c like clubs , things like that .
Grad F: I know {disfmarker}
Grad H: I could {disfmarker}
PhD A: Not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker}
Professor B: Put a little ad up saying , " come here and argue " .
PhD A: Yeah . " If you 're really angry at someone use our conference room . "
Grad H: The Business school . Uh , the business school might be good . I actually spoke with some students up there
PhD A: Oh , OK .
Grad H: and they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they expressed willingness back when they thought they would be doing more stuff with speech .
PhD A: Really .
Grad H: But when they lost interest in speech they also {pause} stopped answering my email about other stuff , so .
PhD D: Hmm .
PhD A: Or people who are really h
Professor B: They could have a discussion about te
Grad F: I {disfmarker}
Grad H: We should probably bleep that out .
Professor B: about {disfmarker} about tax cuts or something .
Grad F: I heard that at Cal Tech they have a special room {disfmarker} someone said that they had a special room to get all your frustrations out that you can go to and like throw things and break things .
Professor B: Yeah , now that is not actually what we {disfmarker}
Grad F: So we can like post a {disfmarker}
Grad H: Th - that 's not what we want .
Grad F: No , not to that extent
PhD A: Well , far field mikes can pick up where they threw stuff on the wall .
Grad F: but , um . Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah , but we don't want them to throw the far field mikes is the thing .
PhD A: Oh . {vocalsound} Yeah , right .
Grad H: That 's right .
PhD D: The fa
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD D:
Grad H: " Please throw everything in that direction . "
Professor B: Yeah . Anyway .
Grad H: Padded cell .
Postdoc G: It 'd be fun to get like a {disfmarker} a p visit from the {disfmarker}
Grad H: There was a dorm room at Tech that , uh , someone had coated the walls and the ceiling , and , uh , the floor with mattresses .
Grad F: Mmm .
Grad H: The entire room .
Professor B: I had as my fourth thing here processing of wave forms .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Professor B: What did we mean by that ? Remember @ @ ?
Grad H: Uh , Liz wanted to talk about methods of improving accuracy by doing pre - processing .
Postdoc G: Pre - processing .
PhD A: Well I think that {disfmarker} that was just sort of {disfmarker} I I already asked Thilo
Professor B: Oh , you already did that .
PhD A: but that , um , it would be helpful if I can stay in the loop somehow with , um , people who are doing any kind of post - processing , whether it 's to separate speakers or to improve the signal - to - noise ratio , or both , um , that we can sort of try out as we 're running recognition . Um , so , i is that {disfmarker} Who else is work I guess Dan Ellis and you
PhD C: Dan , yeah .
Professor B: Yeah , and Dave uh {pause} Gel - Gelbart again ,
Grad H: Yep .
PhD A: and Dave .
PhD C: Yep .
PhD A: OK .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: he 's {disfmarker} he 's interested in {disfmarker} in fact we 're look starting to look at some echo cancellation kind of things .
PhD A: OK .
Professor B: Which uh {disfmarker}
Grad H: I am not sure how much that 's an issue with the close talking mikes ,
Professor B: Hmm ?
Grad H: but who knows ?
Professor B: Well , let 's {disfmarker} w i isn't that what {disfmarker} what you want {disfmarker}
PhD A: I don't know . I 'm bad {disfmarker}
Professor B: t No , so {disfmarker} No , i w wha what you {disfmarker} what you want {disfmarker} when you 're saying improving the wave form you want the close talking microphone to be better .
PhD A: It 's like {disfmarker} {comment} {vocalsound} like {disfmarker}
Professor B: Right ?
Grad H: Right .
Professor B: And the question is to w to what extent is it getting hurt by , uh {disfmarker} by any room acoustics or is it just {disfmarker} uh , given that it 's close it 's not a problem ?
PhD A: It doesn't seem like big room acoustics problems to my ear
Professor B: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD A: but I 'm not an expert . It seems like a problem with cross - talk .
Professor B: OK , so it 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad H: e I bet with the lapel mike there 's plenty , uh , room acoustic
PhD A: That {disfmarker} that may be true .
Grad H: but I I think the rest is cross - talk .
PhD A: But I don't know how good it can get either by those {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} those methods {disfmarker}
Grad H: Yeah .
PhD A: That 's true .
Professor B: OK .
Grad H: So I {disfmarker} I think it 's just ,
PhD A: Oh , I don't know .
Grad H: yeah , what you said , cross - talk .
PhD A: All I meant is just that as sort of {disfmarker} as this pipeline of research is going on we 're also experimenting with different ASR , uh , techniques .
Grad H: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: And so it 'd be w good to know about it .
PhD E: So the problem is like , uh , on the microphone of somebody who 's not talking they 're picking up signals from other people {comment} and that 's {vocalsound} causing problems ?
PhD A: R right , although if they 're not talking , using the {disfmarker} the inhouse transcriptions , were sort of O K because the t no one transcribed any words there and we throw it out .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: But if they 're talking at all and they 're not talking the whole time , so you get some speech and then a " mm - hmm " , and some more speech , so that whole thing is one chunk . And the person in the middle who said only a little bit is picking up the speech around it , that 's where it 's a big problem .
Postdoc G: You know , this does like seem like it would relate to some of what Jose 's been working on as well , the encoding of the {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc G: And {disfmarker} and he also , he was {disfmarker}
PhD A: The energy ,
PhD D: Yeah ,
PhD A: right . Exactly .
PhD D: energy .
Postdoc G: I was t I was trying to remember , you have this interface where you {disfmarker} i you ha you showed us one time on your laptop that you {disfmarker} you had different visual displays as speech and nonspeech events .
PhD D: Yeah , c Yeah . May {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I only display the different colors for the different situation . But , eh , for me and for my problems , is uh {disfmarker} is enough . Because , eh , it 's possible , eh , eh , in a simp sample view , uh , to , nnn , to compare with c with the segment , the {disfmarker} the kind of assessment what happened with the {disfmarker} the different parameters . And only with a different bands of color for the , uh , few situation , eh , I consider for acoustic event is enough to @ @ .
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I see that , eh , you are considering now , eh , a very sophisticated , eh , ehm , eh , @ @ {comment} set of , eh , graphic s eh , eh , ehm , si symbols to {disfmarker} to transcribe . No ? Because , uh , before , you {disfmarker} you are talking about the {disfmarker} the possibility to include in the Transcriber program eh , um , a set of symbols , of graphic symbol to {disfmarker} t to mark the different situations during the transcription
Postdoc G: Oh , I w Uh - huh .
PhD D: during the transcription . No ?
Postdoc G: Well , you 're saying {disfmarker} So , uh , symbols for differences between laugh , and sigh , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and slam the door and stuff ?
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah , yeah . The s the symbols , you {disfmarker} you talk of before .
Postdoc G: Or some other kind of thing ?
PhD D: No ? To {disfmarker} to mark {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Well , I wouldn't say {vocalsound} symbols so much . The {disfmarker} the main change that I {disfmarker} that I see in the interface is {disfmarker} is just that we 'll be able to more finely c uh , time things .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc G: But I {disfmarker} I also st there was another aspect of your work that I was thinking about when I was talking to you
PhD A: Hmm .
Postdoc G: which is that it sounded to me , Liz , as though you {disfmarker} and , uh , maybe I didn't q understand this , but it sounded to me as though part of the analysis that you 're doing involves taking segments which are of a particular type and putting them together .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc G: And th so if you have like a p a s you know , speech from one speaker , {pause} then you cut out the part that 's not that speaker ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc G: and you combine segments from {pause} that same speaker to {disfmarker} {comment} and run them through the recognizer . Is that {pause} right ?
PhD A: Well we try to find as close of start and end time of {disfmarker} as we can to the speech from an individual speaker ,
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: because then we {disfmarker} we 're more guaranteed that the recognizer will {disfmarker} for the forced alignment which is just to give us the time boundaries , because from those time boundaries then the plan is to compute prosodic features .
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: And the sort of more space you have that isn't the thing you 're trying to align the more errors we have . Um , so , you know , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} it would help to have either pre - processing of a signal that creates very good signal - to - noise ratio ,
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm . Cuz i OK .
PhD A: which I don't know how possible this is for the lapel , um , or to have very {disfmarker} to have closer , {vocalsound} um , time {disfmarker} you know , synch times , basically , around the speech that gets transcribed in it , or both . And it 's just sort of a open world right now of exploring that . So I just wanted to {pause} see , you know , on the transcribing end from here things look good . Uh , the IBM one is more {disfmarker} it 's an open question right now . And then the issue of like global processing of some signal and then , you know , before we chop it up is {disfmarker} is yet another way we can improve things in that .
PhD E: What about increasing the flexibility of the alignment ?
Postdoc G: OK .
PhD E: Do you remember that thing that Michael Finka did ?
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: that experiment he did a while back ?
PhD A: Right . You can , um {disfmarker} The problem is just that the acoustic {disfmarker} when the signal - to - noise ratio is too low , um , you {disfmarker} you 'll get , a uh {disfmarker} an alignment with the wrong duration pattern or it {disfmarker}
PhD E: Oh , so that 's the problem , is the {disfmarker} the signal - to - noise ratio .
PhD A: Yeah . It 's not the fact that you have like {disfmarker} I mean , what he did is allow you to have , uh , words that were in another segment move over to the {disfmarker} at the edges of {disfmarker} of segmentations .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Or even words inserted that weren't {disfmarker} weren't there .
PhD A: Right , things {disfmarker} things near the boundaries where if you got your alignment wrong {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: cuz what they had done there is align and then chop .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Um , and this problem is a little bit j more global . It 's that there are problems even in inside the alignments , uh , because of the fact that there 's enough acoustic signal there t for the recognizer to {disfmarker} to eat , {vocalsound} as part of a word . And it tends to do that . S So , uh ,
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: but we probably will have to do something like that in addition . Anyway . So , yeah , bottom {disfmarker} bottom line is just I wanted to make sure I can be aware of whoever 's working on these signal - processing techniques for , uh , detecting energies ,
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: because that {disfmarker} that 'll really help us .
Professor B: O K , uh tea has started out there I suggest we c run through our digits and ,
Postdoc G: OK .
Professor B: Uh , So , OK , we 're done .
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PhD A: OK , we 're on .
Professor C: OK , what are we talking about today ?
PhD B: I don't know . Do you have news from the conference talk ? Uh , that was programmed for yesterday {disfmarker} I guess .
Professor C: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yesterday
Professor C: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yesterday morning on video conference .
Professor C: Uh ,
PhD B: Well
Professor C: oh , I 'm sorry .
Grad E: Oh . Conference call .
Professor C: I know {disfmarker} now I know what you 're talking about . No , nobody 's told me anything .
PhD B: Alright .
PhD A: Oh , this was the , uh , talk where they were supposed to try to decide {disfmarker}
PhD B: To {disfmarker} to decide what to do ,
PhD A: Ah , right .
PhD B: yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah . No , that would have been a good thing to find out before this meeting , that 's . No , I have no {disfmarker} I have no idea . Um , Uh , so I mean , let 's {disfmarker} let 's assume for right now that we 're just kind of plugging on ahead ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: because even if they tell us that , uh , the rules are different , uh , we 're still interested in doing what we 're doing . So what are you doing ?
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Uh , well , we 've {disfmarker} a little bit worked on trying to see , uh , what were the bugs and the problem with the latencies .
PhD D: To improve {disfmarker}
PhD B: So , We took {disfmarker} first we took the LDA filters and , {vocalsound} uh , we designed new filters , using uh recursive filters actually .
Professor C: So when you say " we " , is that something Sunil is doing or is that {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: I 'm sorry ?
Professor C: Who is doing that ?
PhD B: Uh , us . Yeah .
Professor C: Oh , oh . Oh , OK .
PhD B: So we took the filters {disfmarker} the FIR filters {vocalsound} and we {comment} designed , uh , IIR filters that have the same frequency response .
PhD D: But {disfmarker}
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Well , similar , but that have shorter delays .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So they had two filters , one for the low frequency bands and another for the high frequency bands . And so we redesigned two filters . And the low frequency band has sixty - four milliseconds of delay , and the high frequency band filter has something like eleven milliseconds compared to the two hundred milliseconds of the IIR filters . But it 's not yet test . So we have the filters but we still have to implement a routine that does recursive filtering
Professor C: OK .
PhD B: and {disfmarker}
Professor C: You {disfmarker} you had a discussion with Sunil about this though ?
PhD B: No . No .
Professor C: Uh - huh . Yeah , you should talk with him .
PhD B: Yeah , yeah .
Professor C: Yeah . No , I mean , because the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the whole problem that happened before was coordination ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: right ? So {disfmarker} so you need to discuss with him what we 're doing ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: uh , cuz they could be doing the same thing and {disfmarker} or something .
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Uh , I {disfmarker} yeah , I don't know if th that 's what they were trying to {disfmarker} They were trying to do something different like taking , uh {disfmarker} well , using filter that takes only a past
Professor C: Right .
PhD B: and this is just a little bit different . But I will I will send him an email and tell him exactly what we are doing , so .
Professor C: Yeah , yeah . Um ,
PhD B: Um ,
Professor C: I mean {disfmarker} We just {disfmarker} we just have to be in contact more . I think that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the fact that we {disfmarker} we did that with {disfmarker} had that thing with the latencies was indicative of the fact that there wasn't enough communication .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So .
PhD B: Alright .
Professor C: OK .
PhD B: Um , Yeah . Well , there is w one , um , remark about these filters , that they don't have a linear phase . So ,
Professor C: Right .
PhD B: Well , I don't know , perhaps it {disfmarker} perhaps it doesn't hurt because the phase is almost linear but . Um , and so , yeah , for the delay I gave you here , it 's {disfmarker} it 's , uh , computed on the five hertz modulation frequency , which is the {disfmarker} mmm , well , the most important for speech so . Uh , this is the first thing .
Professor C: So that would be , uh , a reduction of a hundred and thirty - six milliseconds ,
PhD D: The low f f
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: which , uh {disfmarker} What was the total we ended up with through the whole system ?
PhD B: Three hundred and thirty .
Professor C: So that would be within {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: Yeah , but there are other points actually , uh , which will perhaps add some more delay . Is that some other {disfmarker} other stuff in the process were perhaps not very {disfmarker} um perf well , not very correct , like the downsampling which w was simply dropping frames .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: Um , so we will try also to add a nice downsampling having a filter that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}
Professor C: Uh - huh .
PhD B: well , a low - pass filter at {disfmarker} at twenty - five hertz . Uh , because wh when {disfmarker} when we look at the LDA filters , well , they are basically low - pass but they leave a lot of what 's above twenty - five hertz .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: Um , and so , yeah , this will be another filter which would add ten milliseconds again .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: Um , yeah , and then there 's a third thing , is that , um , basically the way on - line normalization was done uh , is just using this recursion on {disfmarker} on the um , um , on the feature stream ,
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: and {disfmarker} but this is a filter , so it has also a delay . Uh , and when we look at this filter actually it has a delay of eighty - five milliseconds . So if we {disfmarker}
Professor C: Eighty - five .
PhD B: Yeah . If we want to be very correct , so if we want to {disfmarker} the estimation of the mean t t to {disfmarker} to be {disfmarker} well , the right estimation of the mean , we have to t to take eighty - five milliseconds in the future . Mmm .
Professor C: Hmm ! That 's a little bit of a problem .
PhD B: Yeah . Um , But , well , when we add up everything it 's {disfmarker} it will be alright . We would be at six so , sixty - five , plus ten , plus {disfmarker} for the downsampling , plus eighty - five for the on - line normalization . So it 's
Professor C: Uh ,
PhD B: plus {disfmarker} plus eighty for the neural net and PCA .
Professor C: yeah , but then there 's {disfmarker} Oh .
PhD B: So it would be around two hundred and forty {disfmarker} so , well ,
Professor C: Just {disfmarker} just barely in there .
PhD B: plus {disfmarker} plus the frames , but it 's OK .
PhD A: What 's the allowable ?
Professor C: Two - fifty , unless they changed the rules .
PhD B: Hmm .
Professor C: Which there is {disfmarker} there 's some discussion of .
PhD A: What were they thinking of changing it to ?
Professor C: But {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: Uh , well the people who had very low latency want it to be low {disfmarker} uh , very {disfmarker} {vocalsound} very very narrow , uh , latency bound . And the people who have longer latency don't . So .
PhD A: Huh .
PhD B: So , yeah .
Professor C: Unfortunately we 're the main ones with long latency , but
PhD A: Ah !
Professor C: But , uh ,
PhD B: Yeah , and basically the best proposal had something like thirty or forty milliseconds of latency .
Professor C: you know , it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD B: So . Well .
Professor C: Yeah , so they were basically {disfmarker} I mean , they were more or less trading computation for performance and we were , uh , trading latency for performance . And they were dealing with noise explicitly and we weren't , and so I think of it as complementary , that if we can put the {disfmarker}
PhD A: Think of it as what ?
Professor C: Complementary .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor C: I think the best systems {disfmarker} so , uh , everything that we did in in a way it was {disfmarker} it was just adamantly insisting on going in with a brain damaged system , which is something {disfmarker} actually , we 've done a lot over the last thirteen years . Uh , {vocalsound} which is we say , well this is the way we should do it . And then we do it . And then someone else does something that 's straight forward . So , w th w this was a test that largely had additive noise and we did {disfmarker} we adde did absolutely nothing explicitly to handle ad additive noise .
PhD A: Right .
Professor C: We just , uh , you know , trained up systems to be more discriminant . And , uh , we did this , uh , RASTA - like filtering which was done in the log domain and was tending to handle convolutional noise . We did {disfmarker} we actually did nothing about additive noise . So , um , the , uh , spectral sub subtraction schemes a couple places did seem to seem to do a nice job . And so , uh , we 're talking about putting {disfmarker} putting some of that in while still keeping some of our stuff . I think you should be able to end up with a system that 's better than both but clearly the way that we 're operating for this other stuff does involved some latency to {disfmarker} to get rid of most of that latency . To get down to forty or fifty milliseconds we 'd have to throw out most of what we 're doing . And {disfmarker} and , uh , I don't think there 's any good reason for it in the application actually . I mean , you 're {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're speaking to a recognizer on a remote server and , uh , having a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a quarter second for some processing to clean it up . It doesn't seem like it 's that big a deal .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: These aren't large vocabulary things so the decoder shouldn't take a really long time , and .
PhD A: And I don't think anybody 's gonna notice the difference between a quarter of a second of latency and thirty milliseconds of latency .
Professor C: So . No . What {disfmarker} what does {disfmarker} wa was your experience when you were doing this stuff with , uh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the surgical , uh , uh , microscopes and so forth . Um , how long was it from when somebody , uh , finished an utterance to when , uh , something started happening ?
PhD A: Um , we had a silence detector , so we would look for the end of an utterance based on the silence detector .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: And I {disfmarker} I can't remember now off the top of my head how many frames of silence we had to detect before we would declare it to be the end of an utterance .
Professor C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Um , but it was , uh , I would say it was probably around the order of two hundred and fifty milliseconds .
Professor C: Yeah , and that 's when you 'd start doing things .
PhD A: Yeah , we did the back trace at that point to get the answer .
Professor C: Yeah . Of course that didn't take too long at that point .
PhD A: No , no it was pretty quick .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD A: So {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah , so you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} so you had a
PhD A: this w
Professor C: so you had a {disfmarker} a quarter second delay before , uh , plus some little processing time ,
PhD A: Right .
Professor C: and then the {disfmarker} the microscope would start moving or something .
PhD A: Right .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD A: Right .
Professor C: And there 's physical inertia there , so probably the {disfmarker} the motion itself was all {disfmarker}
PhD A: And it felt to , uh , the users that it was instantaneous . I mean , as fast as talking to a person . It {disfmarker} th I don't think anybody ever complained about the delay .
Professor C: Yeah , so you would think as long as it 's under half a second or something .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor C: Uh , I 'm not an expert on that
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor C: but .
PhD A: I don't remember the exact numbers but it was something like that .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD A: I don't think you can really tell . A person {disfmarker} I don't think a person can tell the difference between , uh , you know , a quarter of a second and a hundred milliseconds , and {disfmarker} I 'm not even sure if we can tell the difference between a quarter of a second and half a second .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD A: I mean it just {disfmarker} it feels so quick .
Professor C: Yeah . I mean , basically if you {disfmarker} yeah , if you said , uh , um , " what 's the , uh , uh {disfmarker} what 's the shortest route to the opera ? " and it took half a second to get back to you ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor C: I mean , {vocalsound} it would be f I mean , it might even be too abrupt . You might have to put in a s a s {vocalsound} a delay .
PhD A: Yeah . I mean , it may feel different than talking to a person
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD A: because when we talk to each other we tend to step on each other 's utterances . So like if I 'm asking you a question , you may start answering before I 'm even done .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD A: So it {disfmarker} it would probably feel different
Professor C: Right .
PhD A: but I don't think it would feel slow .
Professor C: Right . Well , anyway , I mean , I think {disfmarker} we could cut {disfmarker} we know what else , we could cut down on the neural net time by {disfmarker} by , uh , playing around a little bit , going more into the past , or something like that . We t we talked about that .
PhD A: So is the latency from the neural net caused by how far ahead you 're looking ?
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And there 's also {disfmarker} well , there 's the neural net and there 's also this , uh , uh , multi - frame , uh , uh , KLT .
PhD A: Wasn't there {disfmarker} Was it in the , uh , recurrent neural nets where they weren't looking ahead at all ?
Professor C: They weren't looking ahead much . They p they looked ahead a little bit .
PhD A: A little bit . OK .
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah , I mean , you could do this with a recurrent net . And {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} But you also could just , um , I mean , we haven't experimented with this but I imagine you could , um , uh , predict a , uh {disfmarker} um , a label , uh , from more in the past than in {disfmarker} than {disfmarker} than in the future . I mean , we 've d we 've done some stuff with that before . I think it {disfmarker} it works OK .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: We 've always had {disfmarker} usually we used the symmetric windows
Professor C: So .
PhD A: but I don't think {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah , but we 've {disfmarker} but we played a little bit with {disfmarker} with asymmetric , guys .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor C: You can do it . So . So , that 's what {disfmarker} that 's what you 're busy with , s messing around with this ,
PhD B: Uh , yeah .
Professor C: yeah . And , uh ,
PhD D: Also we were thinking to {disfmarker} to , uh , apply the eh , spectral subtraction from Ericsson
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: Uh - huh .
PhD D: and to {disfmarker} to change the contextual KLT for LDA .
PhD A: Change the what ?
PhD D: The contextual KLT .
PhD A: I 'm missing that last word . Context
Professor C: K {disfmarker} KLT .
PhD A: KLT .
PhD D: KLT {disfmarker}
Grad E: Oh . KLT .
PhD A: Oh , KLT .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Uh - huh .
PhD D: KLT , I 'm sorry . Uh , to change and use LDA discriminative .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: Uh - huh .
PhD D: But {disfmarker} I don't know .
Professor C: Uh ,
PhD A: What is the advantage of that ?
PhD D: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: Well , it 's that by the for the moment we have , uh , something that 's discriminant and nonlinear . And the other is linear but it 's not discriminant at all . Well , it 's it 's a linear transformation , that {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}
Professor C: So at least just to understand maybe what the difference was between how much you were getting from just putting the frames together and how much you 're getting from the discriminative , what the nonlinearity does for you or doesn't do for you . Just to understand it a little better I guess .
PhD B: Mmm . Well {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} yeah . Actually what we want to do , perhaps it 's to replace {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to have something that 's discriminant but linear , also . And to see if it {disfmarker} if it improves ov over {disfmarker} over the non - discriminant linear transformation .
PhD A: Hmm .
PhD B: And if the neural net is better than this or , well . So .
Professor C: Yeah , well , that 's what I meant , is to see whether {disfmarker} whether it {disfmarker} having the neural net really buys you anything .
PhD B: Ye Mmm .
Professor C: Uh , I mean , it doe did look like it buys you something over just the KLT .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: But maybe it 's just the discrimination and {disfmarker} and maybe {disfmarker} yeah , maybe the nonlinear discrimination isn't necessary .
PhD D: S maybe .
PhD B: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Could be .
PhD D: Maybe .
Professor C: Good {disfmarker} good to know . But the other part you were saying was the spectral subtraction , so you just kind of , uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: At what stage do you do that ? Do you {disfmarker} you 're doing that , um {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: So it would be on the um {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on the mel frequency bands ,
PhD D: We was think
PhD B: so . Yeah , be before everything .
Professor C: OK ,
PhD D: Yeah ,
Professor C: so just do that on the mel f
PhD D: we {disfmarker} no {disfmarker} nnn We {disfmarker} we was thinking to do before after VAD or
PhD B: Yeah ,
PhD D: Oh , {comment} we don't know exactly when it 's better .
PhD B: um {disfmarker}
PhD D: Before after VAD or {disfmarker}
Professor C: So {disfmarker} so you know that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that the way that they 're {disfmarker}
PhD D: and then
PhD B: Um .
Professor C: uh , one thing that would be no {disfmarker} good to find out about from this conference call is that what they were talking about , what they 're proposing doing , was having a third party , um , run a good VAD , and {disfmarker} and determine boundaries .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: And then given those boundaries , then have everybody do the recognition .
PhD D: Begin to work .
Professor C: The reason for that was that , um , uh {disfmarker} if some one p one group put in the VAD and another didn't , uh , or one had a better VAD than the other since that {disfmarker} they 're not viewing that as being part of the {disfmarker} the task , and that any {disfmarker} any manufacturer would put a bunch of effort into having some s kind of good speech - silence detection . It still wouldn't be perfect but I mean , e the argument was " let 's not have that be part of this test . " " Let 's {disfmarker} let 's separate that out . " And so , uh , I guess they argued about that yesterday and , yeah , I 'm sorry , I don't {disfmarker} don't know the answer but we should find out . I 'm sure we 'll find out soon what they , uh {disfmarker} what they decided . So , uh {disfmarker} Yeah , so there 's the question of the VAD but otherwise it 's {disfmarker} it 's on the {disfmarker} the , uh {disfmarker} the mel fil filter bank , uh , energies I guess ?
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Mmm , yeah .
Professor C: You do {disfmarker} doing the {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And you 're {disfmarker} you 're subtracting in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} I guess it 's power {disfmarker} power domain , uh , or {disfmarker} or magnitude domain . Probably power domain , right ?
PhD B: I guess it 's power domain , yeah .
Professor C: why
PhD B: I don't remember exactly .
Professor C: Yeah ,
PhD D: I don't remember .
PhD B: But {disfmarker} yeah , so it 's before everything else ,
Professor C: yep .
PhD B: and {disfmarker}
Professor C: I mean , if you look at the theory , it 's {disfmarker} it should be in the power domain but {disfmarker} but , uh , I 've seen implementations where people do it in the magnitude domain
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: and {disfmarker}
PhD B: Mmm .
Professor C: I have asked people why and they shrug their shoulders and say , " oh , it works . " So .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: Uh , and there 's this {disfmarker} I guess there 's this mysterious {disfmarker} I mean people who do this a lot I guess have developed little tricks of the trade . I mean , there 's {disfmarker} there 's this , um {disfmarker} you don't just subtract the {disfmarker} the estimate of the noise spectrum . You subtract th that times {disfmarker}
PhD B: A little bit more and {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor C: Or {disfmarker} or less , or {disfmarker}
PhD A: Really ?
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD A: Huh !
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: And generated this {disfmarker} this ,
Professor C: Uh .
PhD B: um , so you have the estimation of the power spectra of the noise , and you multiply this by a factor which is depend dependent on the SNR . So . Well .
PhD D: Hmm , maybe .
PhD A: Hmm !
PhD B: When the speech lev when the signal level is more important , compared to this noise level , the coefficient is small , and around one . But when the power le the s signal level is uh small compared to the noise level , the coefficient is more important . And this reduce actually the music musical noise ,
PhD A: Oh !
PhD B: uh which is more important during silence portions ,
PhD A: Uh - huh .
PhD B: when the s the energy 's small .
PhD A: Hmm !
PhD B: So there are tricks like this but , mmm .
PhD A: Hmm !
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: So .
PhD A: Is the estimate of the noise spectrum a running estimate ? Or {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: Well , that 's {disfmarker} I mean , that 's what differs from different {disfmarker} different tasks and different s uh , spectral subtraction methods .
PhD A: Hmm !
Professor C: I mean , if {disfmarker} if you have , uh , fair assurance that , uh , the noise is {disfmarker} is quite stationary , then the smartest thing to do is use as much data as possible to estimate the noise , get a much better estimate , and subtract it off .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: But if it 's varying at all , which is gonna be the case for almost any real situation , you have to do it on - line , uh , with some forgetting factor or something .
PhD A: So do you {disfmarker} is there some long window that extends into the past over which you calculate the average ?
Professor C: Well , there 's a lot of different ways of computing the noise spectrum . So one of the things that , uh , Hans - Guenter Hirsch did , uh {disfmarker} and pas and other people {disfmarker} actually , he 's {disfmarker} he wasn't the only one I guess , was to , uh , take some period of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of speech and in each band , uh , develop a histogram . So , to get a decent histogram of these energies takes at least a few seconds really . But , uh {disfmarker} I mean you can do it with a smaller amount but it 's pretty rough . And , um , in fact I think the NIST standard method of determining signal - to - noise ratio is based on this .
PhD A: A couple seconds ?
Professor C: So {disfmarker} No , no , it 's based on this kind of method ,
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor C: this histogram method . So you have a histogram . Now , if you have signal and you have noise , you basically have these two bumps in the histogram , which you could approximate as two Gaussians .
PhD A: But wh don't they overlap sometimes ?
Professor C: Oh , yeah .
PhD A: OK .
Professor C: So you have a mixture of two Gaussians .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor C: Right ? And you can use EM to figure out what it is . You know .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor C: So {disfmarker} so basically now you have this mixture of two Gaussians , you {disfmarker} you n know what they are , and , uh {disfmarker} I mean , sorry , you estimate what they are , and , uh , so this gives you what the signal is and what the noise e energy is in that band in the spectrum . And then you look over the whole thing and now you have a noise spectrum . So , uh , Hans - Guenter Hirsch and others have used that kind of method . And the other thing to do is {disfmarker} which is sort of more trivial and obvious {comment} {disfmarker} is to , uh , uh , determine through magical means that {disfmarker} that , uh , there 's no speech in some period , and then see what the spectrum is .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Uh , but , you know , it 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's tricky to do . It has mistakes . Uh , and if you 've got enough time , uh , this other method appears to be somewhat more reliable . Uh , a variant on that for just determining signal - to - noise ratio is to just , uh {disfmarker} you can do a w a uh {disfmarker} an iterative thing , EM - like thing , to determine means only . I guess it is EM still , but just {disfmarker} just determine the means only . Don't worry about the variances .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And then you just use those mean values as being the {disfmarker} the , uh uh signal - to - noise ratio in that band .
PhD A: But what is the {disfmarker} it seems like this kind of thing could add to the latency . I mean , depending on where the window was that you used to calculate {pause} the signal - to - noise ratio .
PhD B: Yeah , sure . But {disfmarker} Mmm .
Professor C: Not necessarily . Cuz if you don't look into the future , right ?
PhD A: OK , well that {disfmarker} I guess that was my question ,
Professor C: if you just {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker}
PhD A: yeah .
Professor C: I mean , if you just {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} you , uh {disfmarker} a at the beginning you have some {disfmarker}
PhD A: Guess .
Professor C: esti some guess and {disfmarker} and , uh , uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah , but it {disfmarker}
Professor C: It 's an interesting question . I wonder how they did do it ?
PhD B: Actually , it 's a mmm {disfmarker} If - if you want to have a good estimation on non - stationary noise you have to look in the {disfmarker} in the future . I mean , if you take your window and build your histogram in this window , um , what you can expect is to have an estimation of th of the noise in {disfmarker} in the middle of the window , not at the end . So {disfmarker}
Professor C: Well , yeah ,
PhD B: the {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but people {disfmarker}
Professor C: but what does {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what does Alcatel do ?
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And {disfmarker} and France Telecom .
PhD B: The They just look in the past . I guess it works because the noise are , uh pret uh , almost stationary
Professor C: Pretty stationary .
Grad E: Pretty stationary ,
PhD B: but , um {disfmarker}
Professor C: Well , the thing , e e e e
Grad E: yeah .
Professor C: Yeah , y I mean , you 're talking about non - stationary noise but I think that spectral subtraction is rarely {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is not gonna work really well for {disfmarker} for non - stationary noise ,
PhD B: Well , if y if you have a good estimation of the noise ,
Professor C: you know ?
PhD B: yeah , because well it it has to work .
Professor C: But it 's hard to {disfmarker}
PhD B: i
Professor C: but that 's hard to do .
PhD B: Yeah , that 's hard to do . Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah . So {disfmarker} so I think that {disfmarker} that what {disfmarker} what is {disfmarker} wh what 's more common is that you 're going to be helped with r slowly varying or stationary noise .
PhD B: But {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .
Professor C: That 's what spectral subtraction will help with , practically speaking .
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: If it varies a lot , to get a If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} to get a good estimate you need a few seconds of speech , even if it 's centered , right ?
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: if you need a few seconds to get a decent estimate but it 's changed a lot in a few seconds , then it , you know , i it 's kind of a problem .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: I mean , imagine e five hertz is the middle of the {disfmarker} of the speech modulation spectrum ,
PhD B: Mmm .
Professor C: right ? So imagine a jack hammer going at five hertz .
PhD B: Yeah , that 's {disfmarker}
Professor C: I mean , good {disfmarker} good luck . So ,
PhD B: So in this case , yeah , sure , you cannot {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: But I think y um , Hirsch does experiment with windows of like between five hundred milliseconds and one second . And well , five hundred wa was not so bad . I mean and he worked on non - stationary noises , like noise modulated with well , wi with amplitude modulations and things like that ,
PhD A: Were his , uh , windows centered around the {disfmarker}
PhD B: and {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} Um , yeah . Well , I think {disfmarker} Yeah . Well , in {disfmarker} in the paper he showed that actually the estimation of the noise is {disfmarker} is delayed . Well , it 's {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you have to center the window , yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: Mmm .
Professor C: No , I understand it 's better to do but I just think that {disfmarker} that , uh , for real noises wh what {disfmarker} what 's most likely to happen is that there 'll be some things that are relatively stationary
PhD B: Mmm .
Professor C: where you can use one or another spectral subtraction thing
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: and other things where it 's not so stationary and {disfmarker} I mean , you can always pick something that {disfmarker} that falls between your methods ,
PhD B: Hmm .
Professor C: uh , uh , but I don't know if , you know , if sinusoidally , uh , modul amplitude modulated noise is {disfmarker} is sort of a big problem in {disfmarker} in in {disfmarker} practice .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: I think that {vocalsound} it 's uh {disfmarker}
PhD A: We could probably get a really good estimate of the noise if we just went to the noise files , and built the averages from them .
Professor C: Yeah . Well .
PhD B: What {disfmarker} What do you mean ?
Professor C: Just cheat {disfmarker} You 're saying , cheat .
PhD B: But if the {disfmarker} if the noise is stationary perhaps you don't even need some kind of noise estimation algorithm .
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD B: We just take th th th the beginning of the utterance and
Professor C: Oh , yeah , sure .
PhD B: I I know p I don't know if people tried this for Aurora .
PhD D: It 's the same .
PhD B: Well , everybody seems to use some kind of adaptive , well , scheme
Professor C: But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD B: but ,
PhD D: A dictionary .
PhD B: is it very useful
Professor C: you know , stationary {disfmarker}
PhD A: Very slow adaptation .
PhD B: and is the c
PhD A: th
Professor C: Right , the word " stationary " is {disfmarker} has a very precise statistical meaning . But , you know , in {disfmarker} in signal - processing really what we 're talking about I think is things that change slowly , uh , compared with our {disfmarker} our processing techniques .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So if you 're driving along in a car I {disfmarker} I would think that most of the time the nature of the noise is going to change relatively slowly . It 's not gonna stay absolute the same . If you {disfmarker} if you check it out , uh , five minutes later you may be in a different part of the road
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: or whatever . But it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} i i i using the local characteristics in time , is probably going to work pretty well .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: But you could get hurt a lot if you just took some something from the beginning of all the speech , of , you know , an hour of speech and then later {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: Uh , so they may be {disfmarker} you know , may be overly , uh , complicated for {disfmarker} for this test but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but , uh , I don't know . But what you 're saying , you know , makes sense , though . I mean , if possible you shouldn't {disfmarker} you should {disfmarker} you should make it , uh , the center of the {disfmarker} center of the window . But {disfmarker} uh , we 're already having problems with these delay , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} delay issues .
PhD B: Yeah , so .
Professor C: So , uh , we 'll have to figure ways without it . Um ,
PhD A: If they 're going to provide a , uh , voice activity detector that will tell you the boundaries of the speech , then , couldn't you just go outside those boundaries and do your estimate there ?
Professor C: Oh , yeah . You bet . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I imagine that 's what they 're doing , right ? Is they 're {disfmarker} they 're probably looking in nonspeech sections and getting some , uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah , they have some kind of threshold on {disfmarker} on the previous estimate , and {disfmarker} So . Yeah . I think . Yeah , I think Ericsson used this kind of threshold . Yeah , so , they h they have an estimate of the noise level and they put a threshold like six or ten DB above , and what 's under this threshold is used to update the estimate . Is {disfmarker} is that right
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD B: or {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: I think so .
PhD B: So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}
PhD D: I have not here the proposal .
PhD B: Yeah . It 's like saying what 's under the threshold is silence ,
Professor C: Does France Telecom do this {disfmarker}
PhD B: and {disfmarker}
Grad E: Hmm .
Professor C: Does France Telecom do th do the same thing ? More or less ?
PhD B: I d I {disfmarker} Y you know , perhaps ?
PhD D: No . I do I have not here the proposal .
Professor C: OK . Um , OK , if we 're {disfmarker} we 're done {disfmarker} done with that , uh , let 's see . Uh , maybe we can talk about a couple other things briefly , just , uh , things that {disfmarker} that we 've been chatting about but haven't made it into these meetings yet . So you 're coming up with your quals proposal , and , uh {disfmarker} Wanna just give a two three minute summary of what you 're planning on doing ?
Grad E: Oh , um , two , three , it can be shorter than that .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: Um . Well , I 've {disfmarker} I 've talked to some of you already . Um , but I 'm , uh , looking into extending the work done by Larry Saul and John Allen and uh Mazin Rahim . Um , they {disfmarker} they have a system that 's , uh , a multi - band , um , system but their multi - band is {disfmarker} is a little different than the way that we 've been doing multi - band in the past , where um {disfmarker} Where we 've been @ @ {comment} uh taking {pause} um {pause} {vocalsound} sub - band features and i training up these neural nets and {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on phonetic targets , and then combining them some somehow down the line , um , they 're {disfmarker} they 're taking sub - band features and , um , training up a detector that detects for , um , these phonetic features for example , um , he presents um , uh , a detector to detect sonorance . And so what {disfmarker} what it basically is {disfmarker} is , um {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} at the lowest level , there {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's an OR ga I mean , it 's an AND gate . So , uh , on each sub - band you have several independent tests , to test whether um , there 's the existence of sonorance in a sub - band . And then , um , it c it 's combined by a soft AND gate . And at the {disfmarker} at the higher level , for every {disfmarker} if , um {disfmarker} The higher level there 's a soft OR gate . Uh , so if {disfmarker} if this detector detects um , the presence of {disfmarker} of sonorance in any of the sub - bands , then the detect uh , the OR gate at the top says , " OK , well this frame has evidence of sonorance . "
PhD A: What are {disfmarker} what are some of the low level detectors that they use ?
Grad E: And these are all {disfmarker} Oh , OK . Well , the low level detectors are logistic regressions . Um , and the , uh {disfmarker}
Professor C: So that , by the way , basically is a {disfmarker} is one of the units in our {disfmarker} in our {disfmarker} our neural network .
Grad E: the one o
Professor C: So that 's all it is . It 's a sig it 's a sigmoid ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: uh , with weighted sum at the input ,
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor C: which you train by gradient {pause} descent .
Grad E: Right . Yeah , so he uses , um , an EM algorithm to {disfmarker} to um train up these um parameters for the logistic regression .
Professor C: Well , actually , yeah ,
Grad E: The {disfmarker}
Professor C: so I was using EM to get the targets . So {disfmarker} so you have this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this AND gate {disfmarker} what we were calling an AND gate , but it 's a product {disfmarker} product rule thing at the output . And then he uses , uh , i u and then feeding into that are {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , there 's {disfmarker} it 's an OR at the output , isn't it ? Yeah ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: so that 's the product . And then , um , then he has each of these AND things . And , um , but {disfmarker} so they 're little neural {disfmarker} neural units . Um , and , um , they have to have targets . And so the targets come from EM .
PhD A: And so are each of these , low level detectors {comment} {disfmarker} are they , uh {disfmarker} are these something that you decide ahead of time , like " I 'm going to look for this particular feature or I 'm going to look at this frequency , " or {disfmarker} What {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what are they looking at ?
Grad E: Um {disfmarker}
PhD A: What are their inputs ?
Grad E: Uh Right , so the {disfmarker} OK , so at each for each sub - band {comment} there are basically , uh , several measures of SNR and {disfmarker} and correlation .
PhD A: Ah , OK , OK .
Grad E: Um , um and he said there 's like twenty of these per {disfmarker} per sub - band . Um , and for {disfmarker} for every s every sub - band , e you {disfmarker} you just pick ahead of time , um , " I 'm going to have like five {pause} i independent logistic tests . "
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: And you initialize these parameters , um , in some {disfmarker} some way and use EM to come up with your training targets for a {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} the low - level detectors .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: And then , once you get that done , you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you train the whole {disfmarker} whole thing on maximum likelihood . Um , and h he shows that using this {disfmarker} this method to detect sonorance is it 's very robust compared to , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to typical , uh , full - band Gaussian mixtures um estimations of {disfmarker} of sonorance .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad E: And , uh so {disfmarker} so that 's just {disfmarker} that 's just one detector . So you can imagine building many of these detectors on different features . You get enough of these detectors together , um , then you have enough information to do , um , higher level discrimination , for example , discriminating between phones
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: and then you keep working your way up until you {disfmarker} you build a full recognizer .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: So , um , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the direction which I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking about going in my quals .
PhD A: Cool .
Professor C: You know , it has a number of properties that I really liked . I mean , one is the going towards , um , using narrow band information for , uh , ph phonetic features of some sort rather than just , uh , immediately going for the {disfmarker} the typical sound units .
PhD A: Right .
Professor C: Another thing I like about it is that you t this thing is going to be trained {disfmarker} explicitly trained for a product of errors rule , which is what , uh , Allen keeps pointing out that Fletcher observed in the twenties ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: uh , for people listening to narrow band stuff . That 's Friday 's talk , by the way . And then , um , Uh , the third thing I like about it is , uh , and we 've played around with this in a different kind of way a little bit but it hasn't been our dominant way of {disfmarker} of operating anything , um , this issue of where the targets come from . So in our case when we 've been training it multi - band things , the way we get the targets for the individual bands is , uh , that we get the phonetic label {disfmarker} for the sound there
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: and we say , " OK , we train every {disfmarker} " What this is saying is , OK , that 's maybe what our ultimate goal is {disfmarker} or not ultimate but penultimate {vocalsound} goal is getting these {disfmarker} these small sound units . But {disfmarker} but , um , along the way how much should we , uh {disfmarker} uh , what should we be training these intermediate things for ? I mean , because , uh , we don't know uh , that this is a particularly good feature . I mean , there 's no way , uh {disfmarker} someone in the audience yesterday was asking , " well couldn't you have people go through and mark the individual bands and say where the {disfmarker} where it was sonorant or not ? "
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: But , you know , I think having a bunch of people listening to critical band wide , {vocalsound} uh , chunks of speech trying to determine whether {disfmarker} {comment} I think it 'd be impossible .
Grad E: Ouch .
Professor C: It 's all gonna sound like {disfmarker} like sine waves to you , more or less .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: I mean {disfmarker} Well not I mean , it 's g all g narrow band uh , i I m I think it 's very hard for someone to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} a person to make that determination . So , um , um , we don't really know how those should be labeled . It could sh be that you should , um , not be paying that much attention to , uh , certain bands for certain sounds , uh , in order to get the best result .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So , um , what we have been doing there , just sort of mixing it all together , is certainly much {disfmarker} much cruder than that . We trained these things up on the {disfmarker} on the , uh the final label . Now we have I guess done experiments {disfmarker} you 've probably done stuff where you have , um , done separate , uh , Viterbis on the different {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah . Forced alignment on the sub - band labels ?
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: You 've done that . Did {disfmarker} did that help at all ?
Grad E: Um , it helps for one or t one iteration but um , anything after that it doesn't help .
Professor C: So {disfmarker} so that may or may t it {disfmarker} that aspect of what he 's doing may or may not be helpful because in a sense that 's the same sort of thing . You 're taking global information and determining what you {disfmarker} how you should {disfmarker} But this is {disfmarker} this is , uh , I th I think a little more direct .
PhD A: How did they measure the performance of their detector ?
Professor C: And {disfmarker} Well , he 's look he 's just actually looking at , uh , the confusions between sonorant and non - sonorant .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So he hasn't applied it to recognition or if he did he didn't talk about it . It 's {disfmarker} it 's just {disfmarker} And one of the concerns in the audience , actually , was that {disfmarker} that , um , the , uh , uh {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he did a comparison to , uh , you know , our old foil , the {disfmarker} the nasty old standard recognizer with {vocalsound} mel {disfmarker} mel filter bank at the front , and H M Ms , and {disfmarker} and so forth . And , um , it didn't do nearly as well , especially in {disfmarker} in noise . But the {disfmarker} one of the good questions in the audience was , well , yeah , but that wasn't trained for that . I mean , this use of a very smooth , uh , spectral envelope is something that , you know , has evolved as being generally a good thing for speech recognition but if you knew that what you were gonna do is detect sonorants or not {disfmarker} So sonorants and non - sonorants is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is almost like voiced - unvoiced , except I guess that the voiced stops are {disfmarker} are also called " obstruents " . Uh , so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} uh , but with the exception of the stops I guess it 's pretty much the same as voiced - unvoiced ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: right ? So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} Um . So , um , if you knew you were doing that , if you were doing something say for a {disfmarker} a , uh {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a Vocoder , you wouldn't use the same kind of features . You would use something that was sensitive to the periodicity and {disfmarker} and not just the envelope . Uh , and so in that sense it was an unfair test . Um , so I think that the questioner was right . It {disfmarker} it was in that sense an unfair test . Nonetheless , it was one that was interesting because , uh , this is what we are actually using for speech recognition , these smooth envelopes . And this says that perhaps even , you know , trying to use them in the best way that we can , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that we ordinarily do , with , you know , Gaussian mixtures and H M Ms {comment} and so forth , you {disfmarker} you don't , uh , actually do that well on determining whether something is sonorant or not .
PhD A: Didn't they {disfmarker}
Professor C: Which means you 're gonna make errors between similar sounds that are son sonorant or obstruent .
PhD A: Didn't they also do some kind of an oracle experiment where they said " if we {pause} could detect the sonorants perfectly {pause} and then show how it would improve speech recognition ? I thought I remember hearing about an experiment like that .
Professor C: The - these same people ?
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: I don't remember that .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor C: That would {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} you 're right , that 's exactly the question to follow up this discussion , is suppose you did that , uh , got that right . Um , Yeah .
PhD A: Hmm .
PhD B: What could be the other low level detectors , I mean , for {disfmarker} {comment} Other kind of features , or {disfmarker} ? in addition to detecting sonorants or {disfmarker} ? Th - that 's what you want to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to go for also
Grad E: Um {disfmarker}
PhD B: or {disfmarker} ?
Grad E: What t Oh , build other {disfmarker} other detectors on different {pause} phonetic features ?
PhD B: Other low level detectors ? Yeah .
Grad E: Um , uh Let 's see , um , Yeah , I d I don't know . e Um , um , I mean , w easiest thing would be to go {disfmarker} go do some voicing stuff but that 's very similar to sonorance .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Um ,
PhD A: When we {disfmarker} when we talked with John Ohala the other day we made a list of some of the things that w
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD A: like frication ,
Grad E: Oh ! OK .
PhD A: abrupt closure ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD A: R - coloring , nasality , voicing {disfmarker} Uh .
Professor C: Yeah , so there 's a half dozen like that that are {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah , nasality .
Professor C: Now this was coming at it from a different angle but maybe it 's a good way to start . Uh , these are things which , uh , John felt that a {disfmarker} a , uh {disfmarker} a human annotator would be able to reliably mark . So the sort of things he felt would be difficult for a human annotator to reliably mark would be tongue position kinds of things .
Grad E: Oh , OK . Placing stuff ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: yeah .
PhD A: There 's also things like stress .
Professor C: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD A: You can look at stress .
Professor C: But stress doesn't , uh , fit in this thing of coming up with features that will distinguish words from one another ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: right ? It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a good thing to mark and will probably help us ultimate with recognition
PhD A: Yeah , there 's a few cases where it can like permit {comment} and permit .
Professor C: but {disfmarker}
PhD A: But {disfmarker} that 's not very common in English . In other languages it 's more uh , important .
Professor C: Well , yeah , but i either case you 'd write PERMIT , right ? So you 'd get the word right .
PhD A: No , I 'm saying , i i e I thought you were saying that stress doesn't help you distinguish between words .
Professor C: Um ,
PhD A: Oh , I see what you 're saying . As long as you get {disfmarker} The sequence ,
Professor C: We 're g if we 're doing {disfmarker} if we 're talking about transcription as opposed to something else {disfmarker}
PhD A: right ? Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah . Right .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD A: So where it could help is maybe at a higher level . Yeah .
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: Like a understanding application .
PhD A: Understanding , yeah . Exactly .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: But that 's this afternoon 's meeting . Yeah . We don't understand anything in this meeting . Yeah , so that 's {disfmarker} yeah , that 's , you know , a neat {disfmarker} neat thing and {disfmarker} and , uh {disfmarker} So .
Grad E: S so , um , Ohala 's going to help do these , uh {pause} transcriptions of the meeting data ?
PhD A: Uh , well I don't know . We d we sort of didn't get that far . Um , we just talked about some possible features that could be marked by humans and , um ,
Grad E: Hmm .
PhD A: because of having maybe some extra transcriber time we thought we could go through and mark some portion of the data for that . And , uh {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah ,
Grad E: Hmm .
Professor C: I mean , that 's not an immediate problem , that we don't immediately have a lot of extra transcriber time .
PhD A: Yeah , right .
Professor C: But {disfmarker} but , uh , in the long term I guess Chuck is gonna continue the dialogue with John and {disfmarker} and , uh , and , we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll end up doing some I think .
PhD A: I 'm definitely interested in this area , too , f uh , acoustic feature stuff .
Professor C: Uh - huh .
Grad E: OK .
PhD A: So .
Professor C: Yeah , I think it 's an interesting {disfmarker} interesting way to go .
Grad E: Cool .
Professor C: Um , I say it like " said - int " . I think it has a number of good things . Um , so , uh , y you want to talk maybe a c two or three minutes about what we 've been talking about today and other days ?
Grad F: Ri Yeah , OK , so , um , we 're interested in , um , methods for far mike speech recognition , um , {pause} mainly , uh , methods that deal with the reverberation {pause} in the far mike signal . So , um , one approach would be , um , say MSG and PLP , like was used in Aurora one and , um , there are other approaches which actually attempt to {pause} remove the reverberation , instead of being robust to it like MSG . And so we 're interested in , um , comparing the performance of {pause} um , a robust approach like MSG with these , um , speech enhancement or de - reverber de - reverberation approaches .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: And , um , {vocalsound} it looks like we 're gonna use the Meeting Recorder digits data for that .
PhD B: And the de - reverberation algorithm , do you have {disfmarker} can you give some more details on this or {disfmarker} ? Does it use one microphone ?
Grad F: o o
PhD B: Several microphones ? Does it {disfmarker} ?
Grad F: OK , well , um , there was something that was done by , um , a guy named Carlos , I forget his last name , {comment} who worked with Hynek , who , um ,
Professor C: Avendano .
Grad F: OK .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: Who , um ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: um , it was like RASTA in the sense that of it was , um , de - convolution by filtering um , except he used a longer time window ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: like a second maybe . And the reason for that is RASTA 's time window is too short to , um include the whole , um , reverberation {disfmarker} um , I don't know what you call it the reverberation response . I if you see wh if you see what I mean . The reverberation filter from my mouth to that mike is like {disfmarker} it 's t got it 's too long in the {disfmarker} in the time domain for the um {disfmarker} for the RASTA filtering to take care of it . And , um , then there are a couple of other speech enhancement approaches which haven't been tried for speech recognition yet but have just been tried for enhancement , which , um , have the assumption that um , you can do LPC um analysis of th of the signal you get at the far microphone and the , um , all pole filter that you get out of that should be good . It 's just the , um , excitation signal {comment} that is going to be distorted by the reverberation and so you can try and reconstruct a better excitation signal and , um , feed that through the i um , all pole filter and get enhanced speech with reverberation reduced .
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: There 's also this , uh , um , uh , echo cancellation stuff that we 've sort of been chasing , so , uh we have , uh {disfmarker} and when we 're saying these digits now we do have a close microphone signal and then there 's the distant microphone signal . And you could as a kind of baseline say , " OK , given that we have both of these , uh , we should be able to do , uh , a cancellation . " So that , uh , um , we {disfmarker} we , uh , essentially identify the system in between {disfmarker} the linear time invariant system between the microphones and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and re and invert it , uh , or {disfmarker} or cancel it out to {disfmarker} to some {disfmarker} some reasonable approximation
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: through one method or another . Uh , that 's not a practical thing , uh , if you have a distant mike , you don't have a close mike ordinarily , but we thought that might make {disfmarker} also might make a good baseline . Uh , it still won't be perfect because there 's noise . Uh , but {disfmarker} And then there are s uh , there are single microphone methods that I think people have done for , uh {disfmarker} for this kind of de - reverberation . Do y do you know any references to any ? Cuz I {disfmarker} I w I was {disfmarker} w w I {disfmarker} I lead him down a {disfmarker} a bad path on that .
PhD B: Uh , I g I guess {disfmarker} I guess when people are working with single microphones , they are more trying to do {disfmarker}
Professor C: But .
PhD B: well , not {disfmarker} not very {disfmarker} Well , there is the Avendano work ,
Professor C: Right .
PhD B: but also trying to mmm , uh {disfmarker} trying to f t find the de - convolution filter but in the um {disfmarker} not in the time domain but in the uh the stream of features uh I guess . Well , @ @ {comment} there {disfmarker} there 's someone working on this on i in Mons
Professor C: Yeah , OK .
PhD B: So perhaps , yeah , we should try t to {disfmarker} He 's working on this , on trying to {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: on re reverberation , um {disfmarker}
Professor C: The first paper on this is gonna have great references , I can tell already .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: It 's always good to have references , especially when reviewers read it or {disfmarker} or one of the authors and , {vocalsound} feel they 'll " You 're OK , you 've r You cited me . "
PhD B: So , yeah . Well , he did echo cancellation and he did some fancier things like , uh , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh , training different network on different reverberation conditions and then trying to find the best one , but . Well .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: The oth the other thing , uh , that Dave was talking about earlier was , uh , uh , multiple mike things , uh , where they 're all distant . So , um , I mean , there 's {disfmarker} there 's all this work on arrays , but the other thing is , uh , {pause} what can we do that 's cleverer that can take some advantage of only two mikes , uh , particularly if there 's an obstruction between them , as we {disfmarker} as we have over there .
PhD B: If there is {disfmarker} ?
Professor C: An obstruction between them .
PhD B: Ah , yeah .
Professor C: It creates a shadow which is {disfmarker} is helpful . It 's part of why you have such good directionality with , {vocalsound} with two ears
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: even though they 're not several feet apart . For most {disfmarker} for most people 's heads .
PhD A: That could help though .
Professor C: So that {disfmarker} Yeah , the {disfmarker} the head , in the way , is really {disfmarker} that 's what it 's for . It 's basically ,
PhD A: That 's what the head 's for ? To separate the ears ?
Professor C: Yeah , it 's to separate the ears . That 's right , yeah . Yeah . Uh , so . Anyway , O K . Uh , I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's all we have this week .
Grad E: Oh .
Professor C: And , uh , I think it 's digit time .
PhD A: Actually the , um {disfmarker} For some reason the digit forms are blank .
Professor C: Yeah ?
PhD A: Uh , I think th that may be due to the fact that {comment} Adam ran out of digits , {comment} uh , and didn't have time to regenerate any .
Professor C: Oh ! Oh ! I guess it 's {disfmarker} Well there 's no real reason to write our names on here then ,
PhD A: Yeah , if you want to put your credit card numbers and , uh {disfmarker}
Professor C: is there ?
Grad E: Oh , no {disfmarker} ?
Professor C: Or do {disfmarker} did any {disfmarker} do we need the names for the other stuff ,
PhD A: Uh , yeah , I do need your names and {disfmarker} and the time , and all that ,
Professor C: or {disfmarker} ? Oh , OK .
PhD A: cuz we put that into the " key " files .
Professor C: Oh , OK .
PhD A: Um . But w
Professor C: OK .
PhD A: That 's why we have the forms , uh , even if there are no digits .
Professor C: OK , yeah , I didn't notice this . I 'm sitting here and I was {disfmarker} I was about to read them too . It 's a , uh , blank sheet of paper .
PhD A: So I guess we 're {disfmarker} we 're done .
Professor C: Yeah , yeah , I 'll do my credit card number later . OK .
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Project Manager: Think we can first {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Right it was function F_ eight or something .
Industrial Designer: Tha
User Interface: This one right there .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Who is gonna do a PowerPoint presentation ?
User Interface: Think we all {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You will as well ?
User Interface: Huh . Oh I thought we all were .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah , I have one too , okay .
Project Manager: {gap} .
User Interface: S
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: {gap} .
User Interface: Whoops I forgot to put the thing on {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right . I just wanna {disfmarker} 'cause basically I can't re I've {disfmarker} really crap at remembering everyone's name so I just wanna {disfmarker} rather than going uh Miss Marketing and Miss this and Miss that {vocalsound} wanted to know your names again .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay I'm {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} just gonna leave this up here 'cause I'll {vocalsound} you know . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah . Sure , that's a good idea .
Industrial Designer: I'm Catherine with a C_ . C_A_T_H_ E_R_ I_N_E_ .
Project Manager: Okay , and
User Interface: Uh Gabriel .
Project Manager: Gabriel . E_L_ is it ?
User Interface: E_L_ .
Project Manager: 'Kay . And you're s r R_E_I_S_S_ {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: I am Reissa . R_E_I_S_S_A_ . Double S_ A_ , yeah {vocalsound} yeah . Sorry .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'S just a bit nicer calling people by their names I think .
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: True .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh , right .
Marketing: Mm 'kay .
Project Manager: Okay , right , welcome to meeting B_ . Um this is gonna go a lot better than the last meeting , basically ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: uh 'cause I know what I'm supposed to be doing now .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I am your Project Manager , and , uh yeah , I'm just here to
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} sort of liaise between the three of you and get things going , get people talking and and I'm gonna be making notes and sending them off to the powers that be and stuff basically . Um right , this {disfmarker} for the purposes of this meeting {disfmarker} what this meeting is all about is um I'm gonna have some presentations from all three of you , what you've been working on for the last wee while , when you haven't been getting hit with spam on your computers and and , you know , filling out silly questionnaires and things .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But hopefully you've been {disfmarker} actually been doing something productive . So we're gonna {disfmarker} each of you gonna give us a litt a little presentation . {vocalsound} Um .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Then we're gonna {vocalsound} work , you know , from each of your presentations . We'll we'll uh talk about what we actually need as a final coming together of it all . Um and then we'll , yeah , we'll {gap} sort of conclude {gap} anything else comes up at the end of it .
Industrial Designer: How long is the meeting ?
Project Manager: This meeting it's not very long . It's uh probably down to about thirty five minutes now . So I want each of your presentations to not be too long , five five minutes , something like that .
Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound} No problem . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um if you haven't done a PowerPoint thingy , it doesn't matter , it it just it just says that you {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} that's just one particular medium . If you haven't had time to prepare one , you can draw stuff on the noteboard , you can talk to us , you can {disfmarker} you know however you want to do your little presentation , basically , you can . Don't feel pressurised into using this thing . 'Cause I don't .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh okay . So um . You okay over there ? Reissa ,
Marketing: I'm fine . Yeah .
Project Manager: are you uh b are you joining in with this meeting here
Marketing: I uh yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: or are y or are y or are you are you just are you just uh doing some Internet shopping there ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Think she's finishing up her presentation .
Marketing: D I mean , I I'm finishing off my presentation .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No no . {vocalsound} Uh I'm done . Okay .
Project Manager: Okay , jolly good . Alright , let's have um {disfmarker} well , we all know that it's it's a remote control that we're gonna be dealing with .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: I think the first thing we should look at is um {vocalsound} probably the um what it is that it is actually supposed to be . So that's gonna be you Catherine ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: if we wanna hear from you first .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Um just connecting this .
Project Manager: You don't have to worry about screwing it in just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Are we getting i Really ?
Project Manager: there you go .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Cool . Okay . So I've got a very quick uh {disfmarker} Uh . Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So the working design , I've got a very quick presentation on this , so um I've {disfmarker} oh no , you can't see a thing . {vocalsound} Oh well , I'm gonna draw it on the board then . It's in blue uh , and I couldn't change it .
User Interface: Oh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ah .
Industrial Designer: We it's fine on my screen , but never mind . So um {vocalsound} the idea is that we've got the energy source um , which in our case will pr , oh well {disfmarker} okay , never mind . So um I think maybe uh two batteries , I dunno what they're called {gap} six , or something like that .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh and then {vocalsound} um then on the uh remote control itself will have um the sender for the signal , which could be uh an infra-red signal , um which will be sent by an electronic chip . And uh the chip will be controlled by the user interface . So we'll hear about that later from Gabriel .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And uh the sender will send to the telly itself an infra-red signal to tell it to switch on or switch channels . Um and that's it really for the working design .
Project Manager: Great . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Sorry the presentation wasn't very uh clear but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I prefer the pe I prefer the human touch personally .
Industrial Designer: Really ? Cool .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um , should I erase this or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you wanna just give us a moment , I just wanna copy this down .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Um I dunno if you guys have got any questions for Catherine on any of this ?
Industrial Designer: Fine . {vocalsound} Or suggestions ?
Marketing: Is a battery like the only way of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well , it's just , you don't want it plugged in really , s
User Interface: Yeah , alternate energy source , like win wind power or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , you blow on it and i {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: In indoors . {vocalsound}
Marketing: No , no {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Bicycle power .
Marketing: No I meant like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No 'cause like cha 'cause {disfmarker} always changing um um batteries can get like annoying .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: The battery's down and {disfmarker} maybe {vocalsound} , I dunno , solar charged ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I dunno , swi I th I th I think changing your batteries once every six months is not really a pain , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , it's worked for the last fifty years you know .
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
User Interface: One question I have , and I don't know how much control we have over this is um , as far as the infra-red signal , do we have control over , you know , how far away you can be from the receiving unit , the the T_V_ , and still have it be operational ? I mean , maybe we want one with a strong signal stream .
Project Manager: How far away is your television ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: It's never gonna be more than it's never gonna be , you kno unless you've got a T_V_ the size of a football pitch , it's not {disfmarker} doesn't have to go that far ,
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well , the thing is uh you you don't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: does it ? Doesn't have to go through a wall , because you're not gonna be looking through a wall .
User Interface: That's true .
Marketing: Yeah , but if like you're on the phone in the other room and you need turn television off or something and you don't really want to go into the {disfmarker} put the telephone down , and go into the other room . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well , we can make the the signal strong enough to go through walls if if you fancy it . I didn't think about that but {disfmarker}
Marketing: How about Bluetooth ? {gap} Instead of using infra-red , use Bluetooth .
Industrial Designer: Why not ? I just think that it's it's gonna cost more
Marketing: Isn't that a better signal ?
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah I d it sounds like you {gap} you w don't wanna overcomplicate things .
Industrial Designer: and I'm I'm not sure it's {disfmarker} you're gonna use it .
Marketing: Mm {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: You know we don't need it .
Industrial Designer: It's a fancy idea uh it's quite nice , but then I don't th I dunno , either you {disfmarker} if you wanna watch the telly you're in the room ,
Project Manager: Yeah , exactly .
Industrial Designer: you are gonna {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Basically , we're we're desi we're designing and marketing a television remote control unit .
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We're not w w w w designing something that you can plug in a headset to and and you know connect to your laptop computer and stuff . It's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Oh , we can we can keep the idea if you i We can see at a later stage , maybe , I don't {disfmarker}
Marketing: 'S just an idea .
Project Manager: Okay . Right , well done , Catherine . Um Gab Gabriel let's uh let's hear from you on on on such things .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Do you need the border ?
User Interface: Uh I'm just gonna use the PowerPoint uh .
Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound} Sorry .
User Interface: Technical {gap} . Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay , so , while this is warming up ,
Marketing: Adjusting .
User Interface: there it is uh .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: So I'm doing the user interface design .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah , and basically uh , as far as methods , I was I was looking looking at looking at uh already existing remotes , trying to find some inspiration from designs that are already out there . Thinking of what we can retain , what we can do away with , uh what we what we can perfect a little bit as far as design um . {gap} we don't want to do something that's too radical of a change , I guess , I mean people want a remote that's familiar , that has their favourite functionalities um and and does the basics , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm yeah .
User Interface: Um so we can improve what's out there and maintain that , the basic functionality that people want . Um so things that {vocalsound} seem like absolute must-haves uh would be a volume control , um so up-down keys for that , uh channel keys up-down , but then also a numerical key pad so that they can just key directly to the channel that they want , rather than doing up-down , and uh a mute button . Uh one thing that I didn't include here , that I forgot that we talked about last time , was doing um some sort of lock uh function .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Uh , I don't I dunno , uh that's one possibility . And so in the research that I was doing there's basically two types of remotes , ones that are engineering centred and ones that are more user centred , which I don't know if I can access the web page from here , but I can show you {disfmarker} uh . Yeah . So this is a engineer centred one , so you see it's rather busy , but it also lets you play your movie , stop your movie , fast-forward , all this , um {vocalsound} freeze frame .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Uh and this is a user centred one . Uh it's it's easier to g just glance at this and see {vocalsound} what's possible to do ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: you're not gonna be staring at it for five minutes .
Project Manager: Great .
User Interface: And I {disfmarker} judging from what what we all talked about during our last meeting I kind of gathered that that's what we were going after , uh or the direction we were going in at least . Um . So , the engineering centred ones uh provide a lot of functionality , but it can be a little bit overwhelming , so the user centred ones just focus on ease of use . Uh and this sort of overlaps with what the marketing person uh , Reissa ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: because uh we we need to find out what what people want before we make firm decisions on this .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {gap} . {vocalsound}
User Interface: So uh , yeah , that's me .
Project Manager: Great . Okay . Now that's I just have a q a q question for you . This w um research that you've been doing looki looking at other , you know , existing units {gap} stuff . Um have you found that anyone else has do has looked into the locking function or {disfmarker}
User Interface: No that that that seemed like a novel idea as f as far as I know . I mean obviously another {disfmarker} {gap} exists {gap} like you like you said in in mobile phones .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: That was sort of the inspiration for it . Um I've never seen that with {disfmarker} in in all my years in in the remote business .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: I've , haven't I've never seen a locking functionality . I dunno , what uh do you guys have a a yea or nay on that {gap} a feeling about whether that's really necessary ?
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} I would say it's {disfmarker} If it's simple to do , which I think it probably should be ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: even if it's a physical , you know , a f a like a f a physical switch or a physical cover for the remote , even something like that , um then yes ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm . 'Kay .
Project Manager: it's {gap} like , you know , like s you said earlier on ab ab ab a flip thing , something like that ,
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: but you know being physical . Look into . Um I've had word down from head office that something that we should be centred {vocalsound} well , something we should take into account is um we've gotta keep the corporate image within this remote control unit . It's gotta d look like it's in the R_ and R_ .
User Interface: Mm {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: You know , the the company it's it's , from what I can see from our other products , are yellow with blue writing on them . Um .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Mm .
User Interface: Right . And our motto is is we put the fashion in electronics .
Project Manager: We put the fashion in electronics . There you go .
User Interface: I think I think we have to carry that mental .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: So it's kinda gotta look it's gotta look new and s you know something fashionable . If if remote control {disfmarker} well , if telephones can be fashionable , then maybe remote control units can be .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Well yeah these , I think , we can {disfmarker} so we talked about the layout in my presentation and what I didn't mention yet really is is the sort of like the ergonomic design .
Project Manager: Yeah . Because we need {disfmarker}
User Interface: I t I think we can make big improvements over these two that you see here , I mean .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Great .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh , everything is going t ergonomic , you know , there's you know mice for your computers that are very ergonomic and keyboards and that could be one of our niches p sort of uh uh in the market , I guess . Um .
Project Manager: Okay , fantastic .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Right , well done , Gabriel .
Marketing: {gap} .
Project Manager: Um Reissa . Let's plug you in , baby .
Marketing: Where does it go into ?
User Interface: {gap} .
Marketing: Here ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: The blue thing .
User Interface: Uh , yeah , this is getting all {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah , then you just have to do function F_ eight and it should come up .
Marketing: Well , function F_ eight . No {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , w it it just takes a wee while .
User Interface: Yeah , it just takes a second uh .
Marketing: oh . {vocalsound} Come on . Right . Okay . {gap} . Okay . Well , for our marketing report uh we observed remote control users in a usability lab , and also gave {disfmarker} so this is research {disfmarker} and we also gave participants um questionnaires to fill out . Um total number of people tested were a hundred just so you know , so that hundred people were tested and these were the findings . So seventy five per cent of users find the remote control ugly . Okay , so they don't like the look of the remote control . Um eighty f eighty per cent of them would spend more money if the rem remote control looked really cool and fancy . So I think we all agree with that . Um {vocalsound} current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user . So , they don't like {disfmarker} like the way they operate it doesn't like match how people behave . Um {gap} per cent of the users say that they only use ten per cent of the buttons on a remote , so probably if you have like one , two , three , four , five , the whole up to z ten , they probably don't use those , they only use the up and down channel .
Project Manager: 'Cause we've only got five channels . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound} exactly .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's another thing . {vocalsound} Um seventy five per cent of users say they zap . Not quite sure what they mean , zap , goes like {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: I think that's k flicking quickly between channels .
User Interface: Yeah , you wanna navigate the channels quickly I guess .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm . Um takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote . I think especially for uh the older generation . I know my grandmother doesn't like mobile phones , takes ages to work how to use . Anyway um and they also {disfmarker} remotes often get lost in the room , so nobody can find them .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} So maybe tracking devices is a good idea .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wow .
Marketing: Um personal preferences . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You are a child of technology , aren't you ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um so yeah um {vocalsound} I was thinking something easy to use , especially for older people . Um {vocalsound} has to look really cool , flashy groovy for people to buy it . And it's easy to find {vocalsound} , so I don't know whether maybe {disfmarker} and also we asked them whether they wanted {vocalsound} {disfmarker} whether they'd be interested in um {vocalsound} voice activating .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So voice activation . So and this was what we came up with . Then if you look fifteen to twenty five {disfmarker} this is age , sorry , {gap} age groups . So fifteen to twenty five said like ninety two {disfmarker} ninety one per cent of them said yes .
Project Manager: So there you go , yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} so basically the majority except for the forty five to fifty five year olds for some reason didn't want a voice activated one . And neither did the older generation , but the younger generation who we are catering for , like who have most of the money nowadays , do want a voice act speech recognition in a remote .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh but do the younger generation have the money ? They they don't .
User Interface: No I would I would say the older the older people , yeah .
Project Manager: It's older generation , they're the ones that have gone out and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well the twenty five to thirty five year old , and thirty five , and the thirty five to forty five , forty five point seven per cent {gap} say no , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: People people from the age of thirty f there's a big drop off there .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: For people up to the age of thirty five , you're kinda saying , yeah , they want it . Um but no they're not {gap} sort of {disfmarker} most people that have the money are people from the age of thirty five to fifty five ,
User Interface: Yeah , that would be my guess as well .
Project Manager: uh 'cause they're the ones that have been working for twenty years .
Marketing: So they don't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} d and tha
Marketing: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and that's a {vocalsound} that's quite a minority there , so yeah , it's not even like fifty fifty that's th thirty five per cent .
Marketing: These guys are growing up . {vocalsound}
User Interface: What about just from the the prospective of our manufacturing cost ? I mean if if it's twelve fifty per unit .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: I mean , okay , there's {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Voice activation might not be the best .
Project Manager: I would say scra I'd say scrap that straight off .
User Interface: Uh .
Marketing: Um also with um with buttons , {vocalsound} a thing called R_S_I_ , so wrist sense {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Repetitive strain uh rep repetitive strain injury
Marketing: Huh ?
User Interface: or like from doing {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , repetitive strains injury , so they don't {disfmarker} I think people who watch T_V_ maybe too often , keep changing channel hurts their wrist .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well {vocalsound} maybe they shouldn't watch so much T_V_ then . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I don't think so . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So y so it's so it's so you got {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so that's something we should have a look into then i when desi when designing the ergonomics of {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: maybe not so hard .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: see {vocalsound} have a look if um there's any w any medical background we can find out about this .
Industrial Designer: Maybe it could be , instead of pressing button it could be just touching a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Let's jus {gap}
Marketing: Maybe {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we just want {disfmarker} need to cover our arses so that people aren't gonna sue us in ten years' time , say your remote control gave me repetitive strain injury .
User Interface: Yeah , we should probably consult with our legal department uh .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} They're having a lunch break at the moment , but {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: I'll see if I can get {disfmarker} see if I can get hold of them for the next meeting .
User Interface: Yeah . I think we can do some really {disfmarker} in in that department , the the ergonomic department , we can make some some really good improvements .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm . Maybe th the buttons not so high up so you don't have to press so much ,
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: or we just like flat buttons , something . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So that is me .
Project Manager: That's great , thank you very much for that , Reissa . {vocalsound} Um okay , so we've basically we've decide we've d we've decided that it's gonna be , you know uh , we're going for a basic television remote . It's gotta be safe to use , it's gotta look cool .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: It's gotta be cheap . S um .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Now going back to the uh industrial design of it , you know , we were looking at whether to use maybe infra-red or Bluetooth . I think , we should just go with the simplest option on everything , uh and that would be infra-red , energy source , that would be batteries . Uh mean we we can look into using the s , you know , the little tiny weeny batteries , all like special long-lasting batteries . Um . {vocalsound} But a in {disfmarker} there's no I don't think there's any point in making a remote control unit that's gonna last for fifty years , because technology will have changed and , you know , we won't have televisions in ten years' time . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: I think we're all um pretty sussed on that . Um anyone have any questions ? Everybody happy in their work ?
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah , it seems like we're all on the {disfmarker} pretty much on the same page .
Project Manager: Now {gap} this is good , we've got a good structure going on . We all know where we're going to . {vocalsound} Have you been ge has {disfmarker} have any of you lot been getting loads of crap spam on your computers ?
User Interface: Oh it's probably just you , 'cause you're the project manager . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well , just questionnaires .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Sell {disfmarker} trying to sell your things {gap} . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , {gap} stuff .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um okay . Do {disfmarker} oh {gap} have you guys found out if we can if we can e-mail stuff to each other ?
Marketing: Yeah , you can .
Project Manager: Right . Do all you all know my e-mail address ?
User Interface: Okay . No I don't . I {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well , in the project announcement , you've got the addresses , I think .
Marketing: I think he's participant one , aren't you ?
Industrial Designer: So Project Manager , it's participant one at A_M_I_ . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Oh , it's just participant one oh okay . Yeah .
Project Manager: Can you all d e-mail me your e-mail addresses ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} .
Industrial Designer: You have them i you have them ,
User Interface: Well it's just w it's just it's just par participant one , participant two . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but we'll send you an e-mail .
Project Manager: Send me , yeah
Industrial Designer: You want to have friends , don't you ?
Project Manager: {disfmarker} yeah , okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So are we headed towards like a b a big yellow and black remote as far as {gap} maybe that's our next meeting that we discuss that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Is it yellow and black or is it yellow and blue ? I I kind of thought it was blue writing on a yellow background , but I might be just going a bit {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , it's like white on i white and blue on a black background with white {disfmarker} with yellow borders .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Maybe that's {vocalsound} like getting ahead of ourselves .
Project Manager: Well , maybe you can come up with a few {disfmarker} with a couple of different ideas ?
Industrial Designer: It wouldn't be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Can't we have different colours in the remotes , so somebody can choose different col
Project Manager: Well , see the thing is is we've gotta keep the company image .
Marketing: like does it have to be of a certain ?
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: It's gotta say {disfmarker} people have gotta look at this remote control and instantly recognise that it's a Real Reaction i product .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: But if it's a R_R_ , it would be Real Reaction ,
Project Manager: There's loads of companies that called R_R_ .
Marketing: like if it had a symbol on it .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: This is slog {gap} but this is the slogan , this is the the the the type .
Marketing: Whoa .
User Interface: And this is something that came on down from from the higher ups ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: so , I mean , we are sort of beholden to them .
Marketing: So we have to have it one colour .
Project Manager: Well , not necessarily . But we have to incorporate it .
User Interface: Not one colour , but the pattern needs to be recognisable .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Not necessarily even if i it just has to {disfmarker} ye but you have to look at the product and instantly know that it's one of our products
Industrial Designer: Well you could {disfmarker}
Project Manager: as opposed to a Sony product or a , you know , a Panasonic product .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: It's got to {disfmarker} so maybe , so you can have a look at our our other products and see if they all follow a s similar vein , perhaps .
Industrial Designer: It could come {disfmarker} But it could come in different colours and have the R_R_ colours just somewhere
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} like just around the lock button could be the R_R_ logo or colours and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: If {gap} .
Project Manager: Quite poss yeah . Well this is all your department . Mm okay . Well , well done everybody .
User Interface: {gap} .
Project Manager: And um , I think we uh stop for lunch now .
User Interface: Yeah , pretty soon I think , I guess that's now .
Marketing: Are we are we finished ahead of schedule ?
Project Manager: We might possibly have done .
Industrial Designer: Cool .
User Interface: Alright , see you all soon .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} If we've if we've finished at five minutes before the meeting's supposed to finish , then that means we get an extra five minutes for lunch .
Marketing: {vocalsound} 'Kay uh .
Project Manager: Yeah , there you go . Right . I just have to {disfmarker} there's a few little bits and pieces I have to write down , but {disfmarker} Take your headsets off , kick back , smoke 'em if you got 'em . {vocalsound}
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doc_38
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Grad B: Sorry . Mental {disfmarker} mental Palm Pilot . Right . Hence {pause} no problem .
Grad F: Let 's see . So . What ? I 'm supposed to be on channel five ? Her . Nope . Doesn't seem to be ,
Grad B: Hello {pause} I 'm channel one .
Grad F: yeah .
Grad D:
Grad E: What does your thing say on the back ?
Grad D: Testing .
Grad F: Nnn , five . Alright , I 'm five .
Grad D: Sibilance . Sibilance . {comment} {pause} Three , three . I am three .
Grad B: Eh .
Grad D: See , that matches the seat up there . So .
Grad F: Yeah , well , I g guess {pause} it 's coming up then , or {disfmarker}
Grad D: Cuz it 's {disfmarker} That starts counting from zero and these start counting from one . Ergo , the classic off - by - one error .
Grad B: But mine is correct .
Grad D: Is it ?
Grad E: No .
Grad B: It 's one . Channel one .
Grad D: Your mike {pause} number {pause} is what we 're t
Grad E: Look at the back .
Grad B: Oh , oh , oh ! Oh .
Grad D: Ho !
Grad B: So {disfmarker}
Grad D: I 've bested you again , Nancy .
Grad B: But your p No , but the paper 's correct .
Grad D: The paper is correct .
Grad B: Look at the paper .
Grad D: I didn't det I was saying the microphone , not the paper .
Professor C: Nnn ,
Grad B: Oh .
Professor C: it 's n
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: It 's always offset . Yeah .
Grad B: Yes , you 've bested me again . That 's how I think of our continuing interaction . Damn ! Foiled again !
Grad D: So is Keith showing up ? He 's talking with George right now . Uh , is he gonna get a rip {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} rip himself away from {disfmarker} from that ?
Grad B: He 'll probably come later .
Professor C: What {disfmarker} He - he he 's probably not , is my guess .
Grad D: Oh , then it 's just gonna be the five of us ?
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: Well , he {disfmarker} he was very affirmative in his way of saying he will be here at four . But {pause} you know , that was before he knew about that George lecture probably .
Professor C: Right . This {disfmarker} this is not {disfmarker} It 's not bad for the project if Keith is talking to George . OK . So my suggestion is we just
Grad B: Forge ahead .
Professor C: Forge ahead , yeah .
Grad E: Cool .
Grad B: Are you in charge ?
Grad E: Sure . Um . Well , I sort of had informal talks with most of you . So , Eva just reported she 's really happy about the {pause} CBT 's being in the same order in the XML as in the um {disfmarker} be Java declaration format
Grad F: Yeah . The e
Grad E: so you don't have to do too much in the style sheet transversion .
Grad F: Uh , yeah . Yeah , so .
Grad E: The {disfmarker} uh , Java {disfmarker} the embedded Bayes {pause} wants to take input {disfmarker} uh , uh , a Bayes - net {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some Java notation and Eva is using the Xalan style sheet processor to convert the XML that 's output by the Java Bayes for the {disfmarker} into the , uh , E Bayes input .
Grad D: Mmm .
Grad F: Actually , maybe I could try , like , emailing the guy and see if he has any something already .
Professor C: Sure .
Grad E: Hmm .
Grad F: That 'd be weird , that he has both the Java Bayes and the embedded Bayes in {disfmarker}
Grad D: But that 's some sort of conversion program ?
Grad F: Yeah . Yeah . And put them into different {pause} formats . Oh {disfmarker}
Grad D: I think you should demand things from him .
Grad F: Yep , he could do that , too .
Professor C: He charges so much . Right .
Grad D: Yeah .
Professor C: No , I think it 's a good idea that you may as well ask . Sure .
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad E: And , um , well {pause} pretty mu pretty much on t on the top of my list , I would have asked Keith how the " where is X ? " {pause} hand parse is standing . Um . {pause} But we 'll skip that . Uh , there 's good news from Johno . The generation templates are done .
Grad D: So the trees {pause} for {disfmarker} the XML trees for the {disfmarker} for the gene for the synthesizer are written . So I just need to {pause} do the , uh {disfmarker} write a new set of {pause} tree combining rules . But I think those 'll be pretty similar to the old ones . So . Just gonna be {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker}
Professor C: Oh ! You were gonna send me a note about hiring {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yes .
Professor C: I didn't finish the sentence but he understood it .
Grad D: I know what he 's talking about .
Professor C: OK . But Nancy doesn't .
Grad B: Hiring somebody .
Grad E: We {disfmarker} w um {disfmarker}
Grad D: The guy .
Grad E: OK , so {pause} natural language generation {pause} produces not a {disfmarker} just a surface string that is fed into a text - to - speech but , a {pause} surface string with a syntax tree that 's fed into a concept - to - speech .
Professor C: No .
Grad B: Yeah . Mm - hmm . Better .
Grad E: Now and this concept - to - speech module has {pause} certain rules on how {pause} if you get the following syntactic structure , how to map this onto prosodic rules .
Grad B: Mm - hmm . Sure . Mm - hmm .
Grad E: And Fey has foolheartedly agreed to rewrite uh , the German concept uh syntax - to - prosody rules {disfmarker}
Grad B: I didn't know she spoke German .
Grad E: No , she doesn't .
Grad B: Oh , OK .
Grad E: But she speaks English .
Grad B: Oh . Rewrite the German ones into English . OK , got it .
Grad E: Into English . And um therefore {pause} the , uh {disfmarker} if it 's OK that we give her a couple of more hours per week , then {pause} she 'll do that .
Grad B: OK , got it .
Grad D: What {pause} language is that {pause} written i Is that that Scheme thing that you showed me ?
Grad E: Yeah . That 's the LISP - type scheme .
Grad D: She knows how to program in Scheme ? I hope ?
Grad E: No , I {disfmarker} My guess is {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I asked for a commented version of that file ? If we get that , then it 's {pause} doable , even without getting into it , even though the Scheme li uh , stuff is really well documented in the {pause} Festival .
Grad D: Well , I guess if you 're not used to functional programming , Scheme can be completely incomprehensible . Cuz , there 's no {disfmarker} Like {pause} there 's lots of unnamed functions
Professor C: Syntax . Yeah .
Grad D: and {disfmarker}
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: You know ?
Professor C: Anyway , it {disfmarker} We 'll sort this out . Um . But anyway , send me the note and then I 'll - I 'll check with , uh , Morgan on the money . I {disfmarker} I don't anticipate any problem but we have to {pause} ask . Oh , so this was {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} You know , on the generation thing , um if {comment} sh y she 's really going to do that , then we should be able to get prosody as well . So it 'll say it 's nonsense with perfect intonation .
Grad D: Are we gonna {disfmarker} Can we change the voice of the {disfmarker} of the thing , because right now the voice sounds like a murderer .
Grad E: Yep . We ha we have to change the voice .
Grad B: Wh - Which one ?
Grad D: The {disfmarker} the little Smarticus {disfmarker} Smarticus sounds like a murderer .
Grad B: Oh .
Grad A: That 's good to know .
Grad D: " I have your reservations . "
Grad A: But I will not give them to you unless you come into my lair .
Grad E: It is {disfmarker} Uh , we have the choice between the , uh , usual Festival voices , which I already told the SmartKom people we aren't gonna use because they 're really bad .
Grad B: Festival ?
Professor C: It 's the name of some program ,
Grad B: Oh , oh . Got it . OK .
Professor C: the {disfmarker} the synthesizer .
Grad A: You know , the usual party voices .
Grad E: But , um
Grad B: Yeah , I know . That doesn't sound , {vocalsound} exactly right either .
Grad E: OGI has , uh , crafted a couple of diphone type voices that are really nice and we 're going to use {pause} that . We can still , um , d agree on a gender , if we want . So we still have male or female .
Grad B: I think {disfmarker} Well , let 's just pick whatever sounds best .
Grad E: Hmm ?
Grad B: Whatever sounds best .
Grad E: Uh .
Grad B: Unfortunately , probably male voices , a bit more research on .
Grad D: Does OGI stand for {disfmarker} ? {comment} Original German Institute ?
Professor C: Orego
Grad B: So .
Professor C: Or
Grad E: Oregon .
Grad B: Oregon Graduate Insti
Professor C: Oregon @ @ {comment} Graduate Institute
Grad D: Oh .
Grad E: Try Oregon .
Grad D: Ah .
Professor C: It turns out there 's the long - standing links with these guys in the speech group .
Grad B: Hmm !
Professor C: Very long .
Grad D: Hmm !
Grad E: Hmm .
Professor C: In fact , there 's this guy who 's basically got a joint appointment , Hynek {pause} Hermansky . He 's - spends a fair amount of time here . Anyway . Leave it . Won't be a problem .
Grad E: OK . And it 's probably also absolutely uninteresting for all of you to , um learn that as of twenty minutes ago , David and I , per accident , uh managed to get the whole SmartKom system running on the {disfmarker} uh , ICSI Linux machines with the ICSI NT machines thereby increasing the number of running SmartKom systems in this house from {pause} one on my laptop to three .
Grad B: Mmm , that 's good .
Grad D: How was this by accident ?
Grad B: Yeah , I know . Tha - that 's the part I didn't understand .
Grad E: Um , I suggested to try something that was really kind of {disfmarker} even though against better knowledge shouldn't have worked , but it worked .
Grad B: Hmm !
Grad E: Intuition .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: Will it work again ,
Grad E: Maybe {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} maybe a bit for the AI i intuition thing .
Grad B: or {disfmarker} ?
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad E: OK . And , um , we 'll never found out why . It - it 's just like why {disfmarker} why the generation ma the presentation manager is now working ?
Grad A: Hmm ! This is something you ha you get used to as a programmer , right ?
Grad E: Which
Grad A: You know , {comment} and it 's cool , it works out that way .
Grad E: Hmm . So , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the people at Saarbruecken and I decided not to touch it ever again . Yeah , that would work . OK . Um {disfmarker} I was gonna ask you where something is and what we know about that .
Grad A: Where {disfmarker} OK .
Grad B: Where the " where is " construction is .
Grad A: What {disfmarker} what thing is this ?
Grad E: Where is X ?
Grad A: OK .
Grad E: Oh , but by {disfmarker} Uh , we can ask , uh , did you get to read all four hundred words ?
Professor C: I did .
Grad E: Was it OK ? Was it ?
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad D: I {disfmarker} I wa I was looking at it . It doesn't follow logically . It doesn't {disfmarker} The first paragraph doesn't seem to have any link to the second paragraph .
Grad A: And so on .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad E: Hmm . That {disfmarker}
Professor C: You know , i Yeah , it {disfmarker}
Grad D: Each paragraph is good , though . I li
Professor C: I i Yeah . Well , it it 's fine .
Grad A: It was written by committee .
Professor C: Anyway . Um . But c the meeting looks like it 's , it 's gonna be good . So . I think it 's uh {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad B: Yeah , I didn't know about it until {pause} Robert told me , like ,
Professor C: Yeah , I {disfmarker} I ra I ran across it in {disfmarker} I don't even know where , you know {disfmarker} some just {disfmarker} some weird place . And , uh , yeah , I I 'm surprised I didn't know about it
Grad B: Y yeah . Well , yeah . I was like , why didn't Dan tell me ?
Professor C: since we know all the invited speakers , an
Grad A: Right .
Professor C: Right , or some Anyway . So {disfmarker} But anyway , yeah . I so I {disfmarker} I did see that . Oh wha Yeah . Before we get started on this st so I also had a nice email correspondence with Daphne Kohler , who said yes indeed she would love to work with us on the , um , {disfmarker} you know , using these structured belief - nets and stuff but {pause} starting in August , that she 's also got a new student working on this and that we should get in touch with them again in August and then we 'll figure out a way for you {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} you to get seriously connected with , um their group . So that 's , uh {disfmarker} looks pretty good . And um {disfmarker} Yeah , I 'll say it now . So , um {disfmarker} And it looks to me like {comment} we 're now at a good point to do something {disfmarker} start working on something really hard . We 've been so far working on things that are easy .
Grad A: Oh !
Professor C: Uh , w Which is {comment} mental spaces and uh {disfmarker} and - or {disfmarker}
Grad A: Hmm !
Grad B: It 's hard . Yeah , it 's hard .
Professor C: Huh ?
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: It 's a hard puzzle . But the other part of it is the way they connect to these , uh , probabilistic relational models . So {pause} there 's all the problems that the linguists know about , about mental spaces , and the cognitive linguists know about , but then there 's this problem of the belief - net people have only done a moderately good job of dealing with temporal belief - nets . Uh , which they call dynamic {disfmarker} they incorrectly call dynamic belief - nets .
Grad B: Mmm .
Professor C: So there 's a term " dynamic belief - net " , doesn't mean that . It means time slices . And Srini used those and people use them . Uh . But one of the things I w would like to do over the next , uh , month , it may take more , {comment} is to st understand to what extent we can not only figure out the constructions for them for multiple worlds and uh sort of what the formalism will look like and where the slots and fillers will be , but also what that would translate into in terms of belief - net and the inferences . So the story is that if you have these probabilistic relational models , they 're set up , in principle , so that you can make new instances and instances connect to each other , and all that sort of stuff , so it should be feasible to set them up in such a way that if you 've got the past tense and the present tense and each of those is a separate {pause} uh , belief structure that they do their inferences with just the couplings that are appropriate . But that 's g that 's , as far as I can tell , it 's {disfmarker} it 's putting together two real hard problems . One is the linguistic part of what are the couplings and {disfmarker} and when you have a certain , uh , construction , that implies certain couplings and other couplings , you know , between let 's say between the past and the present , or any other one of these things and then we have this inference problem of exactly technically how does the belief - net work if it 's got um , let 's say one in {disfmarker} in , you know , different tenses or my beliefs and your beliefs , or any of these other ones of {disfmarker} of multiple models . So um you know , in the long run we need to solve both of those and my suggestion is that we start digging into them both , uh , in a way we that , you know , th hopefully turns out to be consistent , so that the {disfmarker} Um . And sometimes it 's actually easier to solve two hard problems than one
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: because they constrain each other . I mean if you 've got huge ra huge range of possible choices um {disfmarker} We 'll see . But anyway , so that 's , um {disfmarker}
Grad A: Oh yeah , like uh , I solved the {disfmarker} the problem of um {disfmarker} we were talking about how do you {disfmarker} various issues of how come a plural noun gets to quote " count as a noun phrase " , you know , occur as an argument of a higher construction , but a bare singular stem doesn't get to act that way .
Professor C: Right .
Grad A: Um , and it would take a really long time to explain it now , but I 'm about to write it up this evening . I solved that at the same time as " how do we keep adjectives from floating to the left of determiners and how do we keep all of that from floating outside the noun phrase " to get something like " I the kicked dog " . Um . Did it {disfmarker} did it at once .
Professor C: That 's great .
Grad A: So maybe {disfmarker} maybe it 'll be a similar thing .
Grad B: Cool .
Professor C: Yeah . No , I know , I th I I think that is gonna be sort of the key to this wh to th the big project of the summer of {disfmarker} of getting the constructions right is that people do manage to do this so there probably are some , uh , relatively clean rules , they 're just not context - free trees .
Grad A: Right .
Professor C: And if we {disfmarker} if the formalism is {disfmarker} is good , then we should be able to have , you know , sort of moderate scale thing . And that by the way is {disfmarker} is , Keith , what I encouraged George to be talking with you about . Not the formalism yet
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: but the phenomena .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: The p And {disfmarker} Oh , another thing , um there was this , uh thing that Nancy agreed to in a {disfmarker} in a weak moment this morning that
Grad A: Hmm !
Grad B: I was really strong .
Grad A: Hmm !
Grad F: Hmm .
Professor C: Uh , sorry . In a {disfmarker} in a friendly moment .
Grad A: Same thing .
Professor C: Anyway , uh , that we were {disfmarker} that we 're gonna try to get a uh , first cut at the revised formalism by the end of next week .
Grad A: Alright .
Professor C: OK ? Probably skipping the mental spaces part .
Grad B: Seems {disfmarker}
Grad A: Right . I do .
Professor C: Uh , just trying to write up essentially what {disfmarker} what you guys have worked out so that everybody has something to look at . We 've talked about it , but only the innermost inner group currently , uh ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm . Knows .
Professor C: knows , uh
Grad A: OK .
Grad B: Yeah , and {disfmarker} and not even all of them really do .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: But like {disfmarker}
Professor C: Right .
Grad A: There 's {disfmarker} The group as a whole knows but no individual member kno
Professor C: Well that that {disfmarker} yeah th there 's one of the advantages of a document , right ? ,
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: is {disfmarker} is that it actually transfers from head to head .
Grad B: Right .
Grad A: OK .
Professor C: So anyway . So um {disfmarker}
Grad B: Ah , communication !
Professor C: Huh ?
Grad B: Communication .
Grad A: Hunh !
Professor C: Communication , documentation and stuff . Anyway , so , uh , with a little luck {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} l let 's , let 's have that as a goal anyway .
Grad A: So , uh , what was the date there ?
Professor C: And {disfmarker}
Grad A: Monday or {disfmarker} ? It 's a Friday .
Professor C: No , no , no . No , w uh {disfmarker} we 're talking about a week fr e end of next week .
Grad A: End of next week .
Grad B: But , uh , but {disfmarker} but the two of us will probably talk to you at well before th
Grad A: I thought you said beginning of n Yeah .
Grad B: I mean . Anyway , w let 's talk separately about how t
Grad A: Yeah , I have a busy weekend but after that {disfmarker} {comment} {vocalsound} Yeah , gung - ho .
Professor C: OK . Yeah , so {disfmarker} so someti sometime next week .
Grad A: Great ,
Professor C: Now if it turns out that that effort leads us into some big hole that 's fine .
Grad A: Mm - hmm . OK .
Professor C: You know , if you say we 're {disfmarker} we 're dump {disfmarker} dump {disfmarker} dump . There 's a really hard problem we haven't solved yet {disfmarker} that , that 's just fine .
Grad A: OK .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: But at {disfmarker} at least sort of try and work out what the state of the art is right now .
Professor C: Right , t t if {disfmarker} to the extent that we have it , let 's write it
Grad A: OK .
Professor C: and to the extent we don't , let 's find out what we need to do .
Grad A: OK .
Professor C: So , uh
Grad E: Can we {disfmarker} ? {vocalsound} Is it worth {pause} thinking of an example out of our tourism thing domain , that involves a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a decent mental {pause} space shift {pause} or setting up {disfmarker}
Professor C: I think it is , but {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} but I interrupted before Keith got to tell us what happened with " where is the Powder - Tower ? " or whatever
Grad B: Right .
Grad A: Well . Uh , what was supposed to happen ? I 've sort of been actually caught up in some other ones , so , um , you know , I don't have a write - up of {disfmarker} or I haven't elaborated on the ideas that we were already talking about which were {disfmarker}
Grad E: Hmm , yeah . I think {disfmarker} I think we already came to the conclusion that we have two alternative {pause} paths that we {disfmarker} two alternative ways of representing it . One is sort of a {disfmarker} has a um
Grad A: It 's gone .
Grad E: um
Grad A: The question of whether the polysemy is sort of like in the construction or pragmatic .
Grad B: One of them was th Right .
Grad E: or comes {disfmarker}
Grad B: Right .
Grad E: is resolved later . Yeah .
Grad A: I think it has to be the {disfmarker} the second case .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad A: Um , so d ' you {disfmarker} Is it clear what we 're talking about here ?
Grad B: I agree .
Grad A: The question is whether the construction is semantic or like ambiguous between asking for location and asking for path .
Professor C: Uh {disfmarker}
Grad B: So you might be {disfmarker} yeah , y And asking for directions .
Grad E: It 's {disfmarker}
Grad A: Um or {disfmarker} or whether the construction semantically , uh , is clearly only asking for location
Grad E: Should we have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker}
Grad B: Uh {disfmarker}
Grad A: but pragmatically that 's construed as meaning " tell me how to get there " .
Professor C: Mm - hmm . Yep .
Grad E: So {pause} assume these are two , uh , nodes we can observe in the Bayes - net .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: So these are either true or false and it 's also just true {pause} or false . If we encounter a phrase such as " where is X ? " , should that set this to true and this to true , and the Bayes - net figures out which under the c situation in general is more likely ? Um , or should it just activate this , have this be false , and the Bayes - net figures out whether this actually now means {disfmarker} ?
Professor C: Uh w that 's a s
Grad B: Slightly different .
Professor C: OK , so that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a separate issue .
Grad A: OK .
Professor C: So I a I I th I agree with you that , um , it 's a disaster to try to make separate constructions for every uh , pragmatic reading ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: although there are some that will need to be there .
Grad B: Good . Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Right .
Grad B: Right .
Professor C: I mean , there there 's some that {disfmarker}
Grad B: Or have every construction list all the possible pragmatic implications of the same one .
Professor C: You can't do that either .
Grad B: Right . Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah . But , you know , c um {disfmarker} almost certainly " can you pass the salt " is a construction worth noting that there is this th this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} uh
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: Request .
Grad A: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Grad B: Very yeah .
Grad A: So right , this one is maybe in the gray area . Is it {disfmarker} is it like that or is it just sort of obvious from world knowledge that no one {disfmarker} you wouldn't want to know the location without wanting to know how to get there or whatever .
Grad B: Mmm .
Professor C: Ri Yeah .
Grad E: One Or in some cases , it 's {disfmarker} it 's quite definitely
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: s so that you just know {disfmarker} wanna know where it is .
Grad A: Yeah . Well the question is basically , is this conventional or conversational implicature ?
Professor C: Exactly . Yeah .
Grad B: Might be , yeah .
Professor C: And I guess , see , the more important thing at this stage is that we should be able to know how we would handle it in ei f in the short run it 's more important to know how we would treat {disfmarker} technically what we would do if we decided A and what we would do if we decided B , than it is t to decide A or B r right now .
Grad A: OK , right .
Grad B: Right . Right .
Grad A: Which of that is . {comment} Yeah , OK
Grad B: Which one it is .
Grad E: Hmm .
Grad B: Cuz there will be other k examples that are one way or the other . Right .
Professor C: W we know for sure that we have to be able to do both .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: So I guess {vocalsound} In the short run , let 's {disfmarker} let 's be real clear on h what the two alternatives would be .
Grad A: OK .
Grad E: And then the {vocalsound} we had another idea floating around um , which we wanted to , uh , get your input on , and that concerns the {disfmarker} But the nice thing is w we would have a person that would like to work on it , and that 's Ir - Irina Gurevich from EML {pause} who is going to be visiting us , uh , the week before , uh , August and a little bit into August . And she would like to {vocalsound} apply the {pause} ontology that is , um {vocalsound} being crafted at EML . That 's not the one I sent you . The one I sent you was from GMD , out of a European CRUMPET .
Professor C: It was terrible .
Grad E: Agreed . Um , and one of the reas one of the {disfmarker} those ideas was , so , back to the old Johno observation that if y if you have a dialogue history {pause} and it said the word " admission fee " was uh , mentioned um , it 's more likely that the person actually wants to enter {pause} than just take a picture of it from the outside . Now what could imagine {disfmarker} to , you know , have a list for each construction of things that one should look up in the discourse history , yeah ? That 's the really stupid way . Then there is the {pause} really clever way that was suggested by Keith and then there is the , uh , middle way that I 'm suggesting and that is you {disfmarker} you get X , which is whatever , the castle . The ontology will tell us that castles have opening hours , that they have admission fees , they have whatever . And then , this is {disfmarker} We go via a thesaurus and look up {pause} certain linguistic surface structures {pause} that are related to these concepts and feed those through the dialogue history and check dynamically for each e entity . We look it up check whether any of these were mentioned and then activate the corresponding nodes on the discourse side . But Keith suggested that a {disfmarker} a much cleaner way would be {disfmarker} is , you know , to keep track of the discourse in such a way that you {disfmarker} if you know that something like that ha has been mentioned before , this just a continues to add up , you know , in th in a {disfmarker}
Grad A: So if someone mentions admission f fees , that activates an Enter schema which sticks around for a little while in your rep in the representation of what 's being talked about . And then when someone asks " where is X ? " you 've already got the {disfmarker} the Enter schema activated
Grad B: Kind of a priming
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: and you 're able to {disfmarker} to conclude on it .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad B: priming a spreading activation
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: Right . Yeah . So that 's certainly {pause} more {pause} realistic .
Grad A: Right .
Professor C: I m I mean psychologically . Now technically
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: Um
Grad D: Well , uh , is it {disfmarker} doesn't it seem like if you just managed the dialogue history with a {disfmarker} a thread , that you know , kept track of ho of the activity of {disfmarker} I mean , cuz it would {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thread would know what nodes {pause} like , needed to be activated , so it could just keep track of {pause} how long it 's been since {pause} something 's been mentioned , and {pause} automatically load it in .
Professor C: Yeah . You could do that . Um . But here 's {disfmarker} here 's a way {disfmarker} in th in the bl Bayes - net you could {disfmarker} you could think about it this way , that if um {pause} at the time " admissions fee " was mentioned {pause} you could increase the probability {pause} that someone wanted to enter .
Grad B: Turn prior on .
Grad D: We - yeah {disfmarker} th th that 's what I wa I wasn't {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I wasn't thinking in terms of Enter schemas . I was just {disfmarker}
Professor C: Fair enough , OK , but , but , in terms of the c c the current implementation {disfmarker} right ? so that um
Grad B: It would already be higher in the {pause} context .
Professor C: th that th the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the conditional probability that someone {disfmarker} So at the time you mentioned it {disfmarker} This is {disfmarker} this is essentially the Bayes - net equivalent of the spreading activation .
Grad A: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor C: It 's {disfmarker} In some ways it 's not as good but it 's {pause} the implementation we got .
Grad A: Yeah , sure . No , I mean
Professor C: We don't have a connectionist implementation . Now {disfmarker} Now my guess is that it 's not a question of time but it is a question of whether another {pause} intervening object has been mentioned .
Grad B: Yeah , relevance .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: I mean , we could look at dialo this is {disfmarker} Of course the other thing we ha we do is , is we have this data coming
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: which probably will blow all our theories ,
Grad A: Yeah , right .
Professor C: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but skipping that {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but my guess is what {disfmarker} what 'll probably will happen , Here 's a {disfmarker} here 's a proposed design . {comment} is that there 're certain constructions which , uh , for our purposes do change the probabilities of EVA decisions and various other kinds and th that the , uh , standard way that {disfmarker} that the these contexts work is sort of stack - like or whatever , but that 's sort of the most recent thing . And so it could be that {pause} when another uh , en tourist entity gets mentioned , you
Grad B: Renew
Professor C: re re essentially re - initiali you know , re - i essentially re - initialize the {pause} state .
Grad D: Mmm .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And of course i if we had a fancier one with multiple worlds you could have {disfmarker} uh , you could keep track of what someone was {pause} uh saying about this and that .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: You know , " I wanna go {disfmarker} in the morning
Grad A: " Here 's my plan for today .
Professor C: I wanna {disfmarker} "
Grad A: Here 's my plan for tomorrow . "
Professor C: Yeah , or {disfmarker} Yeah , in the morning morning I I 'm planning t to go shopping ,
Grad A: hypothetically .
Professor C: in the afternoon to the Powder - Tower {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: Uh , tal so I 'm talking about shopping and then you say , uh , you know , well , um " What 's it cost ? " or something .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Or {disfmarker} Anyway . So one could well imagine , but not yet .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: But I do th think that the {disfmarker} {comment} It 'll turn out that it 's gonna be {disfmarker} depend pretty much on whether there 's been an override .
Grad E: Yeah , I mean , if {disfmarker} if you ask " how much does a train ride and {disfmarker} and cinema around the vineyards cost ? " and then somebody tells you it 's sixty dollars and then you say " OK How much is , uh {disfmarker} I would like to {pause} visit the {disfmarker} " {vocalsound} whatever , something completely different , " then I go to , you know , Point Reyes " ,
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: it {disfmarker} it 's not more likely that you want to enter anything , but it 's , as a matter of fact , a complete rejection of entering by doing that .
Professor C: Right .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: Right .
Professor C: Right .
Grad B: So when you admit have admission fee and it changes something , it 's only for that particular {disfmarker} It 's relational , right ? It 's only for that particular object .
Professor C: Yeah , I th th Yeah . Well , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and the simple idea is that it 's on it 's only for m for the current uh , tourist e entity of instre interest .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: Right .
Grad E: Yeah . But that 's {disfmarker} I mean this {disfmarker} this function , so , has the current object been mentioned in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} with a question about {disfmarker} concerning its {disfmarker}
Professor C: No , no . It 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} It goes the other d it goes in the other direction . Is {disfmarker} When th When the {disfmarker} this is mentioned , {pause} the uh probability of {disfmarker} of , let 's say , entering changes
Grad B: Of that object . For {disfmarker} But {disfmarker}
Professor C: changes .
Grad B: Right .
Grad D: You could just hav uh , just basically , ob it {disfmarker} It observes an {disfmarker} er , it sets the {disfmarker} a node for " entered " or " true " or something ,
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah . Now , uh {disfmarker} But I think Ro - Robert 's right , that to determine that , OK ? you may well want to go through a th thesaurus
Grad D: " discourse enter " .
Professor C: and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} So , if the issue is , if {disfmarker} so now th this construction has been matched and you say " OK . Does this actually have any implications for our decisions ? " Then there 's another piece of code {vocalsound} that presumably {pause} does that computation .
Grad B: So , sort of forward chaining in a way , rather than {pause} backward .
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: But {disfmarker} but what 's Robert 's saying is {disfmarker} is , and I think he 's right , {comment} is you don't want to try to build into the construction itself all the synonyms and all {disfmarker} you know , all the wo Uh maybe . I 'll have to think about that .
Grad B: Hmm .
Professor C: I don't know . I mean it {disfmarker} th {vocalsound} I can thi I can think of arguments in either direction on that . But somehow you want to do it .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Well , it 's just another , sort of , construction side is how to get at the possible inferences we can draw from the discourse history or changing of the {pause} probabilities , and - or {disfmarker}
Grad B: Guess it 's like {disfmarker} I g The other thing is , whether you have a m m user model that has , you know , whatever , a current plan , whatever , plans that had been discussed , and I don't know , I mean {disfmarker}
Grad D: What {disfmarker} uh , what 's the argument for putting it in the construction ? Is it just that {pause} the s synonym selection is better , or {disfmarker} ?
Professor C: Oh , wel Well , the ar the {disfmarker} The argument is that you 're gonna have the {disfmarker} If you 've recognized the word , you 've recognized the word , which means you have a lexical construction for it , so you could just as well tag the lexical construction with the fact that it 's a uh , you know , thirty percent increase in probability of entering . You {disfmarker} So you could {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} you could invert {disfmarker} invert the whole thing , so you s you tag that information on to {pause} the lexicon
Grad D: Mmm . Oh , I see .
Professor C: since you had to recognize it anyway . That {disfmarker} that 's the argument in the other direction . at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} Yeah , and this is {disfmarker}
Grad E: Even though uh the lexical construction itself {disfmarker} out {disfmarker} out of context , uh , won't do it . I mean , y you have to keep track whether the person says
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad E: " But I but I 'm not interested in the opening times " is sort of a more a V type .
Professor C: Yeah there 's , yeah ther there 's that as well .
Grad E: Yep . Hmm . So . But , we 'll {disfmarker} uh , we have time to {disfmarker} This is a s just a sidetrack , but uh I think it 's also something that people have not done before , is um , sort of abuse an ontology for these kinds of , uh , inferences , on whether anything relevant to the current something has been {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , has crept up in the dialogue history already , or not . And , um I have the , uh {disfmarker} If we wanted to have that function in the dialogue hi dialogue module of SmartKom , I have the written consent of Jan to put it in there .
Professor C: Good . OK . {comment} {vocalsound} Well , this {disfmarker} this is highly relevant to someone 's thesis .
Grad E: Yes , um . That 's {disfmarker} uh , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm keeping on good terms with Jan .
Professor C: You 've noticed that . OK .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: So the point is , it 's very likely that Robert 's thesis is going to be along these lines ,
Grad B: Oh , s
Professor C: and the local rules are if it 's your thesis , you get to decide how it 's done . OK . So if , you know {disfmarker} if this is {disfmarker} seriously , if this becomes part of your thesis , you can say , hey we 're gonna do it this way , that 's the way it 's done .
Grad E: Mmm .
Grad B: Yay , it 's not me . It 's always me when it 's someone 's thesis .
Professor C: No , no , no ! No , no . We 've got a lot {disfmarker} we 've got a lot of theses going .
Grad A: There 's a few of us around now .
Grad B: Now it 's not . Yay ! I know it is .
Professor C: Yeah . Right .
Grad E: Well , let 's {disfmarker} let 's talk after Friday the twenty - ninth . Then we 'll see how f f
Professor C: Right . So h he 's got a th he 's got a meet meeting in Germany with his thesis advisor .
Grad B: Yeah , he said he 's gonna f finish his thesis by then .
Grad A: Oh yeah .
Grad E: Yeah . I should try to finish it by then . Yeah .
Professor C: Oh , right .
Grad E: So .
Professor C: Um . Yeah . So I think {pause} in fact , That 's the other thing . uh , this is {disfmarker} this is , speaking of hard problems , {comment} this is a very good time um , to start trying to make explicit where construal comes in and {disfmarker} you know , where c where the construction per - se ends {pause} and where construal comes in ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: Yeah , we 've {disfmarker} we 've done quite a bit of that .
Professor C: cuz this is clearly part of th
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: We 've been doing quite a bit of that .
Professor C: Huh ?
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: Well I said . But that 's part of what the f
Grad B: We have many jobs for you , Ro - Robert .
Professor C: Yeah . Well , he 's gonna need this .
Grad A: Yeah , it seems to always land in your category .
Grad B: The conclusion .
Grad A: You 're lucky .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: Right . So . {vocalsound} Right . So thing {disfmarker} That 's part of why we want the formalism ,
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: is {disfmarker} is because th it is gonna have implicit in it
Grad E: Was I ? In the room ?
Grad B: No , you weren't there {pause} on purpose . Like {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad A: Made it much easier to make these decisions .
Grad B: Obviously .
Grad A: Uh .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: Right . Well I {disfmarker} That 's tentative .
Grad A: Yeah . Right , right , right .
Professor C: They aren't decisions , they 're ju they 're just proposals .
Grad A: Yes . {vocalsound} Excuse me .
Grad B: No , they 're decisions . OK .
Professor C: Yeah , that {disfmarker} That 's the point , is {disfmarker} is th
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad E: Constraints . Let 's call them constraints , around which one has to {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad B: Actually , yeah . {vocalsound} There 's a problem with that word , too , though .
Professor C: Yeah . {comment} {pause} Anyway . But so that 's that 's w Yeah .
Grad D: Yeah , but it {disfmarker} he the decisions I made wer had to do with my thesis . So consequently don't I get to decide then that it 's Robert 's job ?
Professor C: No .
Grad A: Anyhow .
Professor C: Uh .
Grad B: Well , I 'll just pick a piece of the problem and then just push the hard stuff into the center {pause} and say it 's Robert 's . Like .
Grad E: I 've always been {pause} completely in favor of consensus decisions ,
Grad B: I can {disfmarker}
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: so we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll find a way .
Professor C: Well , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we will , but um
Grad B: I haven't . {comment} OK .
Professor C: not {disfmarker}
Grad E: It {disfmarker} it might even be {pause} interesting then to {pause} say that I should be forced to um , sort of pull some of the ideas that have been floating in my head out of the , uh {disfmarker} out of the top hat
Professor C: Yes .
Grad E: and , um {disfmarker}
Grad A: Always good .
Professor C: Right . So
Grad E: That metaphor is not going anywhere , you know .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: Ri - No . Absolutely . So , uh , wh you had {disfmarker} you know you ha You had done one draft .
Grad E: Yes , and , um , it 's {disfmarker} Ha - None of that is basically still around ,
Grad B: I didn't get
Professor C: And a another draft OK .
Grad E: but it 's {disfmarker}
Professor C: D i
Grad A: That 's normal .
Professor C: I i
Grad B: Oh , I guess it 's good I didn't read it .
Professor C: I {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} I 'm shocked . This is the first time I 've seen a thesis proposal change . Right . Anyway , uh . {vocalsound} So .
Grad B: Really ?
Professor C: But , yeah , a second {disfmarker} that would be great . So , uh , a sec I mean you 're gonna need it anyway .
Grad E: Hmm .
Professor C: and
Grad E: Yeah , and I would like to d discuss it and , you know , get you guys 's input
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: and make it sort of bomb - proof .
Grad B: Bomb proof !
Professor C: Yep .
Grad A: Good .
Grad E: Bullet - proof .
Grad B: Oh ! Oh , OK .
Grad E: That 's the word I was looking for .
Professor C: Both proof .
Grad A: Either way .
Grad B: Both .
Professor C: Right .
Grad B: Good luck . {vocalsound} Really .
Professor C: Uh So that , so th thi this {disfmarker} I mean , so this is the point , is we {disfmarker} we 're going to have to cycle through this ,
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: but th the draft of the p proposal on the constructions is {disfmarker} is going to tell us a lot about {pause} what {pause} we think needs to be done by construal . And , um , we oughta be doing it .
Grad E: OK . Yeah , we need {disfmarker} we need some {disfmarker} Then we need to make some dates . Um .
Grad B:
Grad E: Meeting {disfmarker} regular meeting time for the summer , we really haven't found one . We did {pause} Thursdays one for a while . I just talked to Ami . It 's - it 's a coincidence that he can't do {disfmarker} couldn't do it today {pause} here .
Grad B: Usually , he can .
Grad E: Usually he has no real constraints .
Professor C: And the NTL meeting moved to Wednesday ,
Grad E: So {disfmarker}
Professor C: cuz of {disfmarker} of , uh
Grad E: Yeah , it was just an exception .
Professor C: Yeah , you weren't here , but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} s uh , {disfmarker} And so , if that 's OK with you ,
Grad A: It 's i Is it staying basically at the Wednesday noon ?
Professor C: you would {disfmarker}
Grad A: OK . It was th off this week ,
Grad B: Yeah . I always thought it was staying .
Professor C: Yeah , it was th
Grad A: yeah .
Grad B: Yeah , I thought it was just this week that we were changing it .
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: Mmm . {pause} Yeah .
Professor C: OK .
Grad E: And , um . How do we feel about doing it Wednesdays ? Because it seems to me that this is sort of a time where when we {pause} have things to discuss with other people , there {disfmarker} they seem to be s tons of people around .
Professor C: The only disadvantage {pause} is that it may interfere with other
Grad E: Or {disfmarker} subgroup meetings
Professor C: s you know , other {disfmarker} other {disfmarker} No , you {disfmarker} Uh , people in this group connecting with {disfmarker} with
Grad B: Those people who {pause} happen to be around .
Professor C: those people {pause} who {disfmarker} who might not be around so much . Uh , I don't care . I I uh you know I have no fixed {disfmarker}
Grad A: To tell you the truth , I 'd rath I 'd , I 'd {disfmarker} would like to avoid more than one ICSI meeting per day , if possible . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean . I don't know .
Professor C: OK .
Grad A: Whatever .
Professor C: No , that 's fine . I mean that {disfmarker}
Grad E: The {disfmarker} I 'd like to have them all in one day ,
Grad A: Yeah , I can understand that .
Professor C: Well p
Grad E: so package them up and then {disfmarker}
Professor C: people {disfmarker} people differ in their tastes in this matter .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: I {disfmarker} I 'm neutral .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: Yeah . {pause} I 'm always here anyway ,
Grad E: It 's OK , that {disfmarker}
Grad B: so {disfmarker} It doesn't matter .
Professor C: Yeah . @ @ That 's {disfmarker} Me too . I 'm basically {disfmarker} I 'm here . So .
Grad E: Well , if {disfmarker} one {pause} sort of thing is , this room is taken at {disfmarker} after three - thirty pr pretty much every day by the data collection .
Grad B: Oh .
Grad E: So we have subjects anyway {disfmarker} Except for this week , we have subjects in here .
Grad B: Oh .
Grad E: That 's why it was one .
Professor C: OK .
Grad E: So we just knew i
Grad B: So did you just say that Ami can't make one o '
Grad E: No , he can .
Grad A: Oh .
Grad B: Oh , OK .
Grad E: So let 's say Thursday one . But for next week , this is a bit late . So {pause} I would suggest that we need to {disfmarker} to talk {disfmarker}
Grad B: Oh , oh , OK .
Grad E: OK . About the c the {disfmarker} th
Grad B: Could we do Thursday at one - thirty ? Would that {disfmarker} that be horrible ?
Grad E: No . Yes .
Grad B: Oh really ?
Grad E: Because , uh , this room is again taken at two - thirty by Morgan .
Grad B: Oh , OK . OK . You didn't tell me that . OK , that 's fine .
Grad E: And the {disfmarker} s meeting recorder meeting meeting meeting recording on meeting meetings {disfmarker}
Grad B: OK , OK , OK . OK . {pause} Yeah .
Grad E: So .
Grad A: Ah , yeah .
Professor C: Interesting . So you 're proposing that we meet Tuesday .
Grad E: How about that ?
Grad A: Next week .
Grad B: Well , we 're meeting Tuesday .
Professor C: I {disfmarker} I could
Grad B: I mean we usually meet Tuesday {disfmarker} or l like , linguists {pause} um , at two .
Grad D: Would it {disfmarker}
Grad A: That 's right .
Grad B: So . Do you want to meet again here bef
Grad D: And the s Is the Speech - Gen meeting still at {disfmarker} on Tuesdays ?
Grad E: I mean w Well , actually we w we we did scrap our Monday time just because Bhaskara couldn't come Monday .
Grad B: Hhh . {comment} Maybe I do need a Palm Pilot .
Grad E: So there 's {disfmarker} Nothing 's impeding Monday anymore {pause} either .
Grad A: That doesn't apply to a {disfmarker}
Grad D: Although I thought you wanted to go camping on Monday {disfmarker} er , take off Mondays a lot so you could go camping .
Grad E: Get a fresh start {disfmarker} Yeah , that 's another s thing . Yeah . But , um . I mean , there are also usually then holidays anyways . I mean {pause} like {disfmarker} {comment} Sometimes {pause} it works out that way .
Grad B: Usually ?
Grad E: So . Hmm !
Grad B: Well , I mean , the linguists ' meeting {pause} i happens to be at two , but I think that 's {disfmarker} I mean .
Grad A: That should be relatively flexible be
Grad B: pretty flexible , I think .
Grad A: Yeah . There 's just {pause} sort of the two to four of us .
Grad B: So . The multiple meetings
Grad A: Right ? Yeah . So .
Grad B: yeah .
Grad A: And , you know , of course Nancy and I are just sort of always talking anyway and sometimes we do it in that room .
Grad B: Right . Yeah .
Grad A: So , you know , I mean .
Grad E: OK , so {pause} l forget about the b the camping thing . So let 's {disfmarker} eh , any other problems w w w ? But , I suggested Monday . If that 's a problem for me then I shouldn't {pause} suggest it .
Grad D: Ha - ha - ha .
Professor C: OK .
Grad E: So .
Grad A: Um , all of the proposed times sound fine with me .
Grad B: Same here .
Grad E: Monday ?
Professor C: OK , whate I mean {disfmarker} What I think Robert 's saying is that
Grad A: Earlier in the week
Professor C: earlier we {disfmarker} At least for next week , there 's a lot of stuff we want to get done ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor C: so why don't we plan to meet Monday
Grad E: Mmm .
Professor C: and {pause} we 'll see if we want to meet any more than that .
Grad A: OK .
Grad B: What time ?
Grad E: OK .
Grad B: At o o o o one , two , three {disfmarker} ?
Grad E: One , two , three ? Three 's too late .
Professor C: Oh , I i {pause} Yeah , I actually {disfmarker} Two is the earliest I can meet on Monday .
Grad E: Two - thirty ? OK , two .
Professor C: Here I 'm blissfully agreeing to things and realizing that I actually do have some stuff scheduled on Monday .
Grad A: Sure . Sounds great . Uh , so that 's the eighteenth .
Grad B: You guys will still remind me , right ?
Grad D: No way !
Grad B: Y you 'll come and take all the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the headph the good headphones first and then remind me .
Grad E: W why do you {disfmarker} ?
Grad A: Yeah , exactly . Sorry , two PM .
Grad E: And
Grad B: Why do I have this unless I 'm gonna write ?
Grad E: do I get to see th uh , your formalism before {pause} that ?
Grad B: Fine . Yes . Uh . Would you like to ?
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: OK . I was actually gonna work on it for tomorrow {disfmarker} like this {disfmarker} this weekend .
Grad E: I wo I would like {disfmarker} I would sort of {pause} get a {disfmarker} get a notion of what {disfmarker} what you guys have in store for me .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: Well m @ @ you know , w maybe Mond - Maybe we can put {disfmarker} This is part of what we can do Monday , if we want .
Grad B: Yeah . I OK .
Grad A: Alright .
Grad B: I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Professor C: Is some {disfmarker} some version
Grad E: OK .
Grad B: Yeah , so there was like , you know , m m in my head the goal to have like an intermediate version , like , everything I know .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: And then , w I would talk to you and figure out everything you know , that {disfmarker} you know , see if they 're consistent .
Grad A: Yeah . OK . Why don't w Maybe you and I should meet sort of more or less first thing Monday morning and then we can work on this .
Grad B: Yes . Yeah . That 's f fine with me .
Grad A: OK .
Grad B: So . I might {disfmarker} I might {disfmarker} um ,
Grad E: You - y
Grad B: s You said you 're busy {pause} over th until the weekend , right ?
Grad A: Yeah , sort of through the weekend because Kate has a photography show .
Grad B: That 's fine . So we might continue our email thing
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: and that might be fine , too . So , maybe I 'll send you some {disfmarker}
Grad A: Um , if you have time after this I 'll show you the noun phrase thing .
Grad B: OK . That would be cool . So . OK , and we 'll {disfmarker} You wanna m
Grad E: So the idea is on Monday at two we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll see an intermediate version of the formalism for the constructions ,
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: So that 's OK for you {disfmarker}
Grad E: and do an on - line merging with my construal {pause} ideas .
Grad B: Sure , sure .
Grad A: Alright .
Professor C: OK .
Grad B: That 's OK .
Grad E: So it won't be , like , a for semi - formal presentation of my {pause} proposal . It 'll be more like towards {pause} finalizing that proposal .
Grad A: OK .
Grad B: Cuz then you 'll find out more of what we 're making you do .
Grad E: OK , that 's fine . Yep , and then {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad D: Hmm , hmm .
Grad E: Yikes .
Grad A: Oy , {comment} deadlines .
Grad B: We 'll make a presentation of your propo {comment} of your proposal .
Grad E: Perfect . Can you also write it up ?
Grad B: It 's like , " this is what we 're doing .
Professor C: Abso
Grad B: And the complement is Robert . "
Grad E: I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll send you {disfmarker} I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll send you a style file , right ?
Grad B: OK .
Grad E: You just {disfmarker}
Grad B: I already sent you my fi {comment} my bib file . So .
Grad E: OK . And , um . Sounds good .
Grad A: Someday we also have to {disfmarker} we should probably talk about the other side of the " where is X " construction , which is the issue of , um , how do you simulate questions ? What does the simspec look like for a question ?
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad A: Because {pause} it 's a little different .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah , now , we we w
Grad A: We had to {disfmarker} we had an idea for this which seemed like it would probably work .
Professor C: Great . OK . Yeah . Simspec may need {disfmarker} we may n need to re - name that .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: I {disfmarker} Yeah . I {disfmarker}
Professor C: OK ? So let 's think of a name for {disfmarker} for whatever the {disfmarker} this intermediate structure is . Oh , we talked about semspec , for " semantic spec specification "
Grad A: Mmm .
Professor C: and that seems {disfmarker} Um .
Grad A: It 's more general
Professor C: You know , so it 's a m minimal change .
Grad B: Only have to change one vowel . That 's great .
Professor C: Yeah . Just {disfmarker}
Grad B: All the old like {vocalsound} graphs ,
Professor C: Right .
Grad B: just change the {disfmarker} just , like , mark out the {disfmarker}
Grad A: Cool .
Professor C: Right , a little substi substi You know , that 's what text substitution uh macros are for .
Grad A: Yeah . It 's good for you .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: Anyway , uh , so let 's {disfmarker} let 's for the moment call it that until we think of something better .
Grad A: OK .
Professor C: And , yeah , we absolutely need to find {disfmarker} Part of what was missing were markings of all sorts that weren't in there , incl including the questions {disfmarker}
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: We didn't {disfmarker} we never did figure out how we were gonna do emphasis in {disfmarker} in uh , the semspec .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: Yeah , we 've talked a little bit about {pause} that , too , which {disfmarker} uh , uh , it 's hard for me to figure out with sort of our general linguistic issues , how they map onto this particular one ,
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: but {disfmarker} OK , yeah , understood .
Professor C: But that 's part of the formalism {disfmarker} is got to be uh , how things like that get marked .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: W do you have data , like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} You have preliminary {pause} data ? Cuz I know , you know , we 've been using this one easy sentence and I 'm sure you guys have {disfmarker} uh , maybe you are the one who 've been looking at {pause} the rest of it {disfmarker}
Grad A: Um , I
Grad B: it 'd {disfmarker} it 'd be useful for me , if we want to {pause} have it a little bit more data oriented .
Grad A: To tell you the truth , what I 've been looking at has not been the data so far ,
Grad B: Yeah . Mm - hmm {pause} mm - hmm .
Grad A: I just sort of said " alright let 's see if I can get noun phrases and , uh , major verb co uh , constructions out of the way first . " And I have not gotten them out of the way yet .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Surprise . So , um .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad A: So , I have not really approached a lot of the data , but I mean obviously like these {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the question one , since we have this idea about the indefinite pronoun thing and all that , you know , I ca can try and , um run with that , you know , try and do some of the sentence constructions now . It would make sense .
Grad E: OK . Do you wanna run the indefinite pronoun idea past Jerry ?
Grad B: OK .
Grad A: Oh yeah , the basic idea is that um , uh {pause} you know {disfmarker} Uh , {vocalsound} let 's see {pause} if I can {pause} formulate this .
Grad E: So {pause} Mary fixed the car with a wrench .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad E: So you perform the mental sum and then , you know , " who fixed the car with a wrench ? " You {pause} basically are told , to {disfmarker} to do this In the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} analogously to the way you would do " someone fixed the car with a wrench " . And then you hand it back to your hippocampus and find out {pause} what that , you know ,
Grad A: Means .
Grad E: means , and then {pause} come up with that {disfmarker} so who that someone was .
Grad A: The WH question has this as sort of extra thing which says " and when you 're done , tell me who fills that slot " or w you know .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: So , um . And , you know , this is sort of a nice way to do it , the idea of sort of saying that you treat {disfmarker} from the simulation point of view or whatever {disfmarker} you treat , uh , WH constructions similarly to uh , indefinite pronouns like " someone fixed the car " because {pause} lots of languages , um , have WH questions with an indefinite pronoun in situ or whatever ,
Grad B: Use actually the same one .
Grad A: and you just get intonation to tell you that it 's a question . So it makes sense
Professor C: Alright , which is
Grad A: um
Professor C: Skolemization .
Grad A: Hmm ?
Grad B: Mmm .
Professor C: In {disfmarker} in logic , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} it 's actual Huh ?
Grad B: Right . {vocalsound} Let 's put a Skolem {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Skolem constant in ,
Grad A: Yeah . shko
Professor C: What ?
Grad A: Sure .
Grad B: yeah . Yeah . {pause} Right .
Grad A: OK .
Professor C: That - that 's not {disfmarker} that 's not saying it 's bad ,
Grad A: Right . Right . No . Of course .
Professor C: it 's just that {disfmarker}
Grad B: Mmm .
Professor C: that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} the logicians have {disfmarker} have , uh {disfmarker}
Grad A: That 's right . It makes sense from that point of view , too , which is actually better .
Grad E: come up with this
Grad A: So yeah , um . Anyway , but just that kind of thing and we 'll figure out exactly how to write that up and so on , but
Professor C: Good .
Grad A: Uh , no , all the focus stuff . We sort of just dropped that cuz it was too weird and we didn't even know , like , what we were talking about {comment} exactly , what the object of study was .
Grad B: Um - mmm .
Grad A: So .
Professor C: Yeah . Well , if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} I mean , i part of {disfmarker} of what the exercise is , t by the end of next week , is to say what are the things that we just don't have answers for yet .
Grad A: Yeah . Yep .
Professor C: That 's fine . I mean
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Well , if you {disfmarker} if you do wanna discuss focus {pause} background and then get me into that because {disfmarker} I mean , I wo I w scientifically worked on that for {disfmarker} for almost two years .
Grad A: Yeah . OK , then certainly we will . Good .
Grad B: Yeah , you should definitely , um be on on that {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} maybe by {disfmarker} after Monday we 'll {disfmarker} y you can see what things we are and aren't {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah . w We should figure out what our questions are , for example , {vocalsound} to ask you .
Grad B: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad A: So .
Grad B: OK .
Grad A: OK .
Professor C: Wel - then t Hans . Has {disfmarker} I haven't seen Hans Boas ?
Grad B: He 's been around .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: Just maybe not today .
Professor C: OK . So has he been {disfmarker} been involved with this , or {disfmarker} ?
Grad B: Eh . with us ?
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad B: I would say that tha that those discussions have been primarily , um , Keith and {disfmarker} Keith and me , but um like in th the meeting {disfmarker} I mean , he sort of {disfmarker} I thin like the last meeting we had , I think we were all very much part of it
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: but {pause} um
Grad A: Sometimes Hans has been sort of coming in there as sort of like a {pause} devil 's advocate type role or something ,
Grad B: but different perspec Yeah .
Grad A: like {pause} " This make {disfmarker} you know , I 'm going to pretend I 'm a linguist who has nothing to do with this . This makes no sense . " And he 'll just go off on parts of it which {pause} definitely need fixing
Grad B: Right .
Grad A: but aren't where we 're at right now , so it 's
Grad B: Like {disfmarker} like what you call certain things ,
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: which we decided long ago we don't care that much right now .
Professor C: Right .
Grad B: But in a sense , it 's good to know that he {pause} of all people {disfmarker}
Professor C: OK .
Grad B: you know , like maybe a lot of people would have m much stronger reactions , so , you know , he 's like a relatively friendly linguist
Grad A: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad B: and yet a word like " constraint " causes a lot of problems . And , so . {pause} Right . So .
Professor C: OK . This is consistent with um the role I had suggested that he {disfmarker} he play ,
Grad B: Ah .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: OK , which was {pause} that o one of the things I would like to see happen is a paper that was tentatively called " Towards a formal cognitive semantics " which was addressed to these linguists {pause} uh {pause} who haven't been following {pause} this stuff at all .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: So {pause} it could be that he 's actually , at some level , thinking about how am I going to {pause} communicate this story {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor C: So , internally , we should just do {pause} whatever works ,
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: cuz it 's hard enough .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: But {pause} if he g if he turns {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is really gonna turn around and help t to write this version that does {pause} connect with as many as possible of the {pause} other linguists in the world um {comment} then {disfmarker} then it becomes important to {pause} use terminology that doesn't make it hard {disfmarker}
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad B: Mm - hmm . {pause} Sure .
Professor C: I mean , it 's gonna be plenty hard for {disfmarker} for people to understand it as it is ,
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: but y y you don't want to make it worse .
Grad A: Yeah . No , right . I mean , tha that role is {disfmarker} is , uh , indispensable
Professor C: So .
Grad A: but that 's not where sort of our heads were at in these meetings .
Professor C: Right .
Grad A: It was a little strange .
Professor C: Yeah , yeah . {disfmarker} No , that 's fine . I just wanted t to I have to catch up with him , and I wanted t to get a feeling for that . OK .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: So I don't know what his take will be on these meetings exactly , you know .
Professor C: OK . Good .
Grad A: Cuz sometimes he sort of sounds like we 're talking a bunch of goobledy - gook from his point of view .
Grad B: I think it 's good when we 're {disfmarker} when we 're into data and looking at the {disfmarker} some specific linguistic phenomenon {pause} in {disfmarker} in English or in German , in particular , whatever , that 's great ,
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: and Ben and {disfmarker} and Hans are , if {disfmarker} if anything , more {disfmarker} you know , they have more to say than , let 's say , I would about some of these things .
Professor C: Right .
Grad B: But when it 's like , well , w how do we capture these things , you know , I think it 's definitely been Keith and I who have d you know , who have worried more about the {disfmarker}
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Well , that 's good . That 's {disfmarker} I I I think that should be the {disfmarker} the core group
Grad B: s Which is fine .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: and {pause} um that 's , you know , I think {pause} very close to the maximum number of people working together that can get something done .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: Yes . Yeah . We actually have {disfmarker} I think we have been making progress ,
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: and its sort of surprising .
Professor C: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I definitely get that impression . Yeah .
Grad B: You know , like {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yep .
Professor C: That 's great .
Grad B: Yeah . So anyone else would like uh {comment} ruin the balance of {disfmarker} Anyway .
Professor C: Well , but {disfmarker} Well . But th th then w then we have to come back to the bigger group .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: Right .
Professor C: Yeah . {comment} {pause} Great . And then we 're gon we 're gonna {disfmarker} because of this other big thing we haven't talked about is {pause} actually implementing this stuff ? So that I guess the three of us are gonna connect tomorrow about that .
Grad B: Yeah , we could talk tomorrow . I was just gonna say , though , that , for instance , there was {disfmarker} you know , out of a meeting with Johno {pause} came the suggestion that " oh , could it be that the {pause} meaning {pause} constraints really aren't used for selection ? " which has sort of been implicit {pause} in the parsing {pause} strategy we talked about .
Professor C: Right .
Grad B: In which case we w we can just say that they 're the effects or the bindings . Which {pause} uh , so far , in terms of like putting up all the constraints as , you know , pushing them into type constraints , the {disfmarker} when I 've , you know , propo then proposed it to linguists who haven't yet given me {disfmarker} you know , we haven't yet thought of a reason that that wouldn't work . Right ? As long as we allow our type constraints to be reasonably {pause} complex .
Professor C: Well , it {disfmarker}
Grad B: So {disfmarker} Anyway , to be {disfmarker} to talk about later .
Professor C: Yeah , it has to in the sense that you 're gonna use them eventu it 's {disfmarker} you know , it 's sort of a , um , generate and test kind of thing ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm . {pause} Mm - hmm .
Professor C: and if you over - generate then you 'll have to do more . I mean , if there are some constraints that you hold back and don't use uh , in your initial matching then you 'll match some things {disfmarker}
Grad B: Mm - hmm . {pause} Mm - hmm .
Professor C: I mean , I {disfmarker} I d I don't think there 's any way that it could completely fail . It {disfmarker} it could be that uh , you wind up {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} The original bad idea of purely context - free grammars died because {pause} there were just vastly too many parses . You know , exponentially num num many parses . And so th the concern might be that {disfmarker} not that it would totally fail , but that {disfmarker}
Grad B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . That it would still generate too many . {comment} Right ? So by just having semantic even bringing semantics in for matching just in the form of j semantic types , right ?
Professor C: it would still genera
Grad B: Like " conceptually these have to be construed as this , this , and this " might still give us quite a few possibilities
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad B: that , you know {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} and it certainly helps a lot .
Professor C: We don't know , but , yeah .
Grad B: I mean , le let 's put it that way . So .
Professor C: No question . Yeah . And I think it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a perfectly fine place to start . You know , and say , let let 's see how far we can go this way .
Grad B: Mm - hmm . {pause} Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And , uh {disfmarker}
Grad D: Well it definitely makes the problem easier .
Professor C: I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm in favor of that . Uh , cuz I think i I think it 's {disfmarker} As you know , I think it 's real hard and if w if we {disfmarker} Right .
Grad B: So {pause} Friday , Monday
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: Monday .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: So . OK , that 's {disfmarker} Tuesday .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: Like {disfmarker} {comment} th that 's the conclusion . OK .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: So , you your dance card is {pause} completely filled now ?
Grad A: Shoot .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: Yeah , and I have nothing to do this weekend but work .
Grad E: Why don't {disfmarker}
Grad B: No , that 's not really true ,
Grad A: Bummer .
Grad B: but like {disfmarker}
Grad D: What about {disfmarker} What about DDR ?
Grad B: It 's almost true .
Grad F:
Grad B: Oh , I don't have it this weekend , so , tsk {comment} don't have to worry about that .
Grad D: Mmm .
Professor C: DDR , he asked ?
Grad B: Speaking of dance , Dance Dance Revolution I can't believe I 'm {disfmarker} It 's a {disfmarker} it 's like a game , but it 's for , like , dancing . Hard to {disfmarker} It 's like karaoke , but for dancing , and they tell you what {disfmarker} It 's amazing . It 's so much fun . Yeah , it 's so good . My friend has a home version and he brought it over , and we are so into it . It 's so amazing . Well , y you know of it ? I i i it 's one of your hobbies ? It 's great exercise , I must say . I can't wait to hear this . Uh - huh . Oh , definitely . They have , like , places {disfmarker} instead of like {disfmarker} Yeah , instead of karaoke bars now that have , like , DDR , like {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah , I didn't until I started hanging out with this friend , who 's like " Oh , well , I can bring over the DDR if you want . " Oh , oh , Dance Dance Revolution {disfmarker} OK . He actually brought a clone called Stepping Selection , but it 's just as good . So . Anyw
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Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay ? Good afternoon . Hope you have good lunch .
User Interface: Hi .
Industrial Designer: Afternoon . Yeah , we had falafel .
Project Manager: Oh . Nice . And you ?
User Interface: Uh , yes , I had something similar but non-vegetarian .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . So today is um our third meeting . It will be about the conceptual design {vocalsound} uh . If I come back to uh the minutes of the last meetings um . We decided not to go for speech recognition technologies because of some reasons and we are not decided about u the use of L_C_D_ screen on on the remote control because of costs . So maybe we cou wi will be able to clarify this this question to today . Uh at the end of the meeting we should take decision on that point . So I hope uh that your respective pr presentations uh will help us . So each of you have some presentatio presentation to perform um who starts ?
Marketing: Okay , {gap} .
Project Manager: So marketing .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So you are {disfmarker} you saved your y your presentation somewhere ?
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: So you're four ?
Marketing: Four , yeah .
Project Manager: Which is trend watch . {vocalsound} Okay . Mr Marketing Experts .
Marketing: Yeah that's me .
Project Manager: So {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh . Well I investigate the preference more d I investigate deeper the preference of the users . Uh so the the current investigation th uh th uh sorry the current the n current trends ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah ? Okay . {vocalsound} {gap} Okay . {vocalsound} Well wha {vocalsound} what I found {disfmarker} um can you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Next slide ? Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Thank you . What I found in order of importance from less to more important is that people want an easy to use device . After they they want something new technologic technologically speaking , but the most {disfmarker} what they what they find more more interesting , more {disfmarker} or more important it's uh a fancy look and feel instead of uh instead of the current the current trend which was f the functional look and feel .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So now more more cool aspect , ma more {disfmarker} a cooler aspect uh rather than a device with many functions and many buttons with {disfmarker} instead of i instead of ha of a device which can do many things , a device which is pleasant to to watch , to see .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Uh also {disfmarker} Well {vocalsound} in in Euro in in Paris and and {vocalsound} Milan the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: in Paris and in Paris and Milan the the current trend of {gap} uh of clothes , furniture and all this all this fashion it's {vocalsound} it's fruit and the the the theme is fruit and vegetables .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: And also {vocalsound} in the in the U_S_A_ the the current {disfmarker} the mor the most popular feeling it's it's a spongy . Spongy means eponge ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So maybe we should we should think in in this direction , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: What what do you mean by {vocalsound} fruit and vegetables and spongy ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: What {disfmarker} you mean clothe
Industrial Designer: Spongy means it it's like sp
Marketing: Fruit vegetables is the the new {disfmarker} have you seen the last exposition of clothes in Milan ?
User Interface: No , I missed that one .
Marketing: Yeah , I I didn't miss an {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I didn't miss and I saw that the fruit , there are many fr pictures of fruits and vegetables in the clothes .
User Interface: Oh , they're {disfmarker} okay so they're not like dressed as a carrot they just have like pictures of fruit on , okay .
Marketing: No no , not not yet , not yet .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: So we're not gonna have a remote control in the shape of of a banana ,
Marketing: So te textu textures , yeah .
User Interface: just maybe {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Vegetable textures and all this kind .
Project Manager: Drawings of bananas .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay and {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: But what's your suggestion how we can have some shape like that on the remote ?
Project Manager: Well so this is in the next slide certainly .
Marketing: Uh no no , it's not .
Project Manager: It's not ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: So which fruit are you thinking of ?
Marketing: And {disfmarker} Um .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} I ha I haven't thought of any particular fruit , but the general aspect of the of the remote control may may {disfmarker} could remind some kind of vegetable , some kind of instead of vegetable , some natur mm uh natural object or something .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: But yeah it it depends on the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So maybe you maybe you can display a banana on the L_C_D_ . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh , so you want the remote control to be the shape of a fruit ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: or you want just some kind of like fruit logo on the {disfmarker} {gap}
Industrial Designer: Means buttons are in the shape of fruits ,
Marketing: Yeah maybe the shape the shape {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: buttons are in the frape {disfmarker} shape of fruits or something , apple , banana , something like that .
Marketing: No , not n not not too much focus , not too much focu not n not too s not too similar to a fruit because next year the ten the trend the trend will be different .
Project Manager: Apple for channel one . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So we shouldn't be at re really attached to to the trend
User Interface: So something that looks half like a fruit and half like an elephant . {vocalsound}
Marketing: but {disfmarker} For instance , yeah . African or as an elephant ?
Industrial Designer: That we can discuss afterwards {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: But {disfmarker} okay ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm not , I'm not really sure if uh that would really appeal to everyone though , maybe just to fashion gurus , like maybe just like a little bit n a little fruit picture somewhere in the corner , but I don't know about uh I dunno how ergonomic a , an orange is .
Marketing: Well ma maybe we we should further specify what target are we focusing . I think in my opinion we should focus on on young people because they are more open to new devi new devices
User Interface: To fruit ?
Marketing: and also yeah according to the marketing report ninety p ninety five percent of young people was {vocalsound} was was able to to buy a a n a cooler remote control .
User Interface: But is it uh is fruit cool ?
Marketing: What ?
Project Manager: That's a question .
Marketing: What ?
User Interface: Is fruit cool ?
Marketing: Yeah ? Uh {disfmarker} Is the new trend of the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well I guess , you know , Apple has the iPod so , {vocalsound} imagi {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: just 'cause they have an apple on their on their product , doesn't mean fruit is cool . {vocalsound}
Marketing: No I think we we should think about a a shape with it {disfmarker} a device with a shape of some {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay , but it has to be easy to uh to use though and to hold you know , you don't wanna pear or a watermelon . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . Don don't you think we can find uh the shape of a fruit which is handy to use ?
User Interface: Well , probably the only thing is a banana that I can think of ,
Industrial Designer: Banana .
User Interface: a cucumber .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Maybe too long .
User Interface: I dunno .
Marketing: Or m
User Interface: Maybe . Too green .
Marketing: Maybe . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So , but I mean you also have to {disfmarker} you have to also have , fit r all the buttons and {disfmarker} you know .
Project Manager: A banana .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's , it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: The thing is you have t normally with um with buttons , they have to be at some point attached to a circuit board so if you're gonna have things like {gap} on a cylindrical kind of device it may be difficult to kind of to build .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't th it will be rolling a lot .
Marketing: Yeah but I li I like your idea that we shouldn't have a lot of buttons b buttons so
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah and you you you will not have pla enough {disfmarker} a lot of place to put a L_C_D_ on a banana also .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Uh do you want a an L_C_D_ with twenty five Euros ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well , you're the Marketing Expert you should tell us if it is too much or not .
User Interface: Well , this is {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think {disfmarker} Well , according to the to the report people are more interested in in a fa fancy look and feel and in a technological inno in innovation ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: so , I will give more importance to the look and feel than {disfmarker} rather than the
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} So you you you suggest to go f
Marketing: new inputs and also it's {disfmarker} I'm not convinced about this L_C_D_ because you need uh internet connection , you need more things , it's not just buying a new control re remote , you need {disfmarker} buying control remote , buying uh
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} S so you're simply
Marketing: more things . It's not so simple .
Project Manager: you're simply looking s to a remote control that looks like a banana with few buttons {disfmarker} with only a few buttons .
Marketing: For instance , yeah . Yeah for for for {disfmarker} given an an example yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay good . So maybe you can go ahead ?
Marketing: Yeah no , it's what I already said .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Thanks . Um . Okay , I'll give the floor . So you are User Interface guy . So you're three ?
User Interface: Okay . Yeah .
Project Manager: And it's this one .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: Go for it .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yep . Okay . So . S next uh slide . Okay . So I received an email um around lunchtime letting me know that the brilliant minds at our technology division had developed an integrated programmable sample sensor sample speaker unit , um which is a way for you to have a conversation with your coffee machine and or remote control {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: But it's just a speaker right ?
User Interface: It's {disfmarker} no , what it is , it's it's very {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's not a microphone .
User Interface: It has a has a microphone , has a speaker , it's got a little chip and it allows you t
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Actually I'm not reading microphone there , so that's why you can all have conversation , it {gap} just to speak to you .
User Interface: Well , it's a sample sensor sample speaker . Sample sensor sample speaker . It means that it can recognize , it can do like a match on a on a certain phrase that you speak and then can play back a phrase in response to that .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
User Interface: But uh there's no kind of um understanding of the phrase . So , I mean , you know ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: I guess you could build that in , you could you could link the the recognition of a certain phrase to some function on on the remote control .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
User Interface: But basically the thing is , we have this technology available
Industrial Designer: In-house .
User Interface: in-house . So , um
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: but the thing is obviously there's still gonna be a cost if you decided to integrate that because you still have to pay for the c production of the components ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
User Interface: so um it it {disfmarker} but it basically means we c we can kind of consider this from uh you know uh a theoretical or usability kind of viewpoint without worrying too much about you know how to develop it because we have this already done .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
User Interface: Whilst you know , some people might get annoyed if we uh if we just dump it , {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} there's something that I {disfmarker} unclear really understanding . Is this a technology that recognize keywords {disfmarker} speech keywords ?
User Interface: It's it it's no , well , it's it'll recognize uh I guess keywords , but you know keywords in a certain order like a phrase . You train it for a certain uh , for a certain phrase , you say {disfmarker} the the example they said that they have uh up and running with their prototype is um {disfmarker} well they've actually integrated into the into the the coffee machine that uh that we're producing is , you can say good morning to the coffee machine and it can recognize that phrase and it'll playback good morning , how would you like your coffee ?
Project Manager: And it's just to , it's just to playback something ?
User Interface: Yeah . So actually that was a bad example , 'cause it doesn't actually ask how do you want your coffee because it can't really understand the response , so .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah . So this is not s really to do to to do control .
User Interface: Only , like , only in the sense that it it can recognize a set a set target kind of word an
Project Manager: Yeah . This is just more like a poi pois yeah .
User Interface: It's designed it's designed as a fun kind of thing ,
Project Manager: Yeah yeah .
User Interface: but I guess you could use it as uh as a way to implement uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So it it's c uh it it
Marketing: Yeah but you can u
Project Manager: it is a uh uh easy uh a fancy thing that you you can bring to {disfmarker} we can bring to the remote control that will not have any uh
User Interface: Completely pointless yeah .
Project Manager: {disfmarker} yeah comp {vocalsound} completely pointless {vocalsound} for the inter for {disfmarker} from the interaction point of v point of view {gap} .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah , unless you know , you like having conversation with your remote control .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah but the {disfmarker} can we use it for saying okay , channel fifty , channel twenty ?
User Interface: Well yeah , that's the thing , if {disfmarker} you can but {vocalsound} you have to pro though I think it's a fairly simple design so you would have to record into the device every possible combination , you have to s tr train it to l to learn channel fifteen , that whole thing , not just the word channel and the word fifteen , it doesn't have that kind of logic in it .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah . So this is so this is this is much more than tak taking this technology , bringing it to the remote control and using it .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah , that would be some development work .
Project Manager: So this is out of discussion . So if if if it is something that you can {disfmarker} we can bring easily and to put it into the banana remote control {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: M Mando .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Banana-mando .
Project Manager: No this is mm banana-bando , yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Banana-man {vocalsound}
Marketing: Banana-mando yeah .
Project Manager: Uh then it could be cool yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah okay , let's go ahead .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: I uh I I I don't think it's worth it though , I think it doesn't really add much to the functional design and it's it's it's not mature enough to use as a speech recognition engine , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Um , yeah . So if we can just move on to the next slide , I've just done a quick mock-up of uh uh some of the features of our {vocalsound} potential funky-looking uh remote control {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It doesn't look like a banana at all .
User Interface: Well , you see , I was I was unaware at this point of th of the fruit focus ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: um , so at the moment it's more of a box focus .
Project Manager: But you you can fit i you're saying now you can fit it to {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Looks like a tr look likes a a tro a tropical fruit .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , well , this is actu this could be a genetically engineered fruit that's designed to be you know square so that it packs tighter in the boxes .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: But um , I've just indicated here , we could have actually two scroll wheels , 'cause I think the scroll wheel is a fairly um key part of , you know ,
Industrial Designer: Stable thing , that's right . To have {gap} ,
User Interface: I think everyone has has agreed that it's {disfmarker} that it could be quite a useful um thing , so .
Industrial Designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} But I think it's important , you know , to have two scroll wheels because , you know , you want one for for the channel , but you also want one for for the volume ,
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: because it's it's {disfmarker} the volume i it's , you know it's very handy for it to have uh instant kind of uh feedback uh and response , so .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} But um , I've also included this turbo button because I think , you know , every design should have a turbo button , and {disfmarker} well {vocalsound}
Marketing: What's a turbo button ?
User Interface: so this is you know , a unique problem with with televisions is that if you have this scro this scroll wheel for the television , the uh the tuner on the T_V_ is not gonna be able to to switch between stations as fast as you can scroll , so you know , the th the person might want to have a uh {disfmarker} Might want to be able to scroll past television stations without seeing what's on them , in which case it just waits until you stop scrolling and then , you know , displays that station . Or they might want to scroll and and have a quick glimpse of it , even if it lags behind what they're doing {gap} .
Marketing: It con it controls the speed ?
User Interface: Yeah , so with this turbo button you can , say , skip over t channels if uh , you know , if I'm if I'm going {disfmarker} if I'm scrolling past them and you know , it's um , you could have a little red light that comes up when they press it so they feel you know it's really going fast or whatever .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: So yeah , that's um , those are the two important uh features I think we need on the remote ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: but I mean we can discuss about what other kind of buttons we need , um . You know , i it could be , you know , if we if we wanna have like a very cheap kind of device , I mean , we could either consider that maybe we want to sell this as a very , if it's gonna be a banana , you know that's a pretty gimmicky kind of thing that doesn't have that much functionality , it's just you know a couple of scroll wheels and a button cause it's hard to get so many buttons on a banana
Project Manager: It's enough .
User Interface: and it's still very {disfmarker} it may even be for most {disfmarker} for some people more functional than their current remote , but if they have these scroll wheels , so , um {vocalsound} you know , what other buttons do we want ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I mean we could have {disfmarker} well , I guess you need an on and off switch ,
Project Manager: Switch on . Yeah .
User Interface: but you could you could o you could turn it turn it on by taking the top off the banana maybe , you know , it's kind of like a spy kind of flick thing .
Marketing: Yeah . So sounds crazy . I like crazy ideas .
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's why you're a marketing guru . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah , of course . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So i it looks like we're going completely to forget about the L_C_D_ thing .
User Interface: Well , that's the thing , as {disfmarker} have we decided that we can only spend , uh , twenty five Euro ?
Project Manager: I think that {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well not spend , but you know , charge twenty five Euro .
Marketing: I I think we could use somehow the s coffee machine dialogue interface or so .
Project Manager: No we can we can't use that .
Marketing: You {disfmarker} we can ? We can't .
Project Manager: We can't use that to to comman co communicate ,
Industrial Designer: Communicate .
Project Manager: it's just a thing {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , but we can say channel twenty five .
Industrial Designer: It's one way .
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: No ?
User Interface: But then you have to have a template for every channel , for a hundred channels , you have to be able to to recognize {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: It's not a lot one hundred templates ,
User Interface: Mm . Well , I f I think it's probably more than , than our {gap} can handle because it's designed for a coffee machine , you know , to say hello in the morning .
Marketing: it's not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Ah , it's designed for a cof {vocalsound} okay . Is it design for a coffee machine ?
User Interface: Well that's its current application , I would presume that it's kind of , they wouldn't design it to handle a hundred things th so .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe you could ask your {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} you could ask the engineering department if we can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . A good good good thing .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: You want to g to move to your slides ?
User Interface: But uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's right , yeah .
Project Manager: You're finished ?
User Interface: Well I just I just made the point , I don't I don't know if that speech recognition is , you know , even if we can do it , I think it's not really appropriate for uh television environment .
Project Manager: Yeah I think so .
User Interface: But um I did have one thing from a previous meeting , you were talking about um being able to find the remote control
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: and I was talking about extendin being able to extend the remote control by having you know , a base station that can control other things as well .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: It might be useful to have some kind of base station , even if it's just you press on a button on it and uh and the remote control starts beeping , you know , this is a way of finding the remote .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Y in that case maybe the maybe the speech recognition {disfmarker} the speech thing could be useful just to say I'm here
Project Manager: Exactly yeah .
User Interface: but uh it's probably a bit of overkill if you could just have a a beeping {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So it's a speech synthesis kind of thing ,
User Interface: It's speech {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: something has been uh stored and it's just uh spoken out .
User Interface: It's it's speech synthesis and s it's speech kind of , not really speech recognition , but kind of pattern matching , yeah
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh , good idea .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . That's right .
Project Manager: Very good .
User Interface: yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , let's move on . So you're two ?
Industrial Designer: That's right .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So this is going to be about the component design .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So first thing is we need power source for the remote control . So I was of the idea that we can have two kind of power supplies , one is the usual batteries which are there , they could be chargeable batteries if there's a basis station kind of thing and on top of that we can have solar cells , when the lighting conditions are good they can be used so it'll be pretty uh innovative kind . Then uh we need plastic with some elasticity so that if your {disfmarker} if the remote control falls it's not broken directly into pieces , there should be some flexibility in t
User Interface: I guess that fits in with the spongy kind of design philosophy .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So there should {disfmarker} we should think of something like that and then it should be double curve . The s science for the ease of handling and there are some other issues why we need double curve . Then controls for the traditionals u traditional users we can have the push buttons so that they don't feel that it's an alien thing for them .
User Interface: So , just one second , when you say double curve , what do you actually mean ? You reckon you could like draw us a thing on the , on the whiteboard 'cause I'm not sure {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Double curve is , you have curves on both the sides if I'm right . So it's symmetrical kind of thing , whatever it is .
User Interface: Okay , but like , kind of convex or concave ?
Industrial Designer: So , it could be curve , so it could be convex , conve concave , depending on what what we want .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So there are flats , there are single curve and there are double curves .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: These are the three things , and there are different materials , with plastic you can have double curve but with uh certain other materials we cannot have double curve . So there there was uh there were many other materials like wood , titanium and all those things , but plastic is I think is the most appropriate one ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: it'll bring the cost down
User Interface: Although , you know , wood could be uh quite a stylish uh option ,
Industrial Designer: and anyway it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: if you take like , nice quality kind of wood that's got a nice grain and you kind of put some , some varnish on .
Project Manager: Mm but i but there is no elasticity which could be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Wooden cases {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well it depends , I mean , you have the outs the wood itself is not gonna break so you don't have to worry too much about the case being broken ,
Project Manager: Yeah but the components inside .
User Interface: it's the inside . Yeah but inside you know you could have {disfmarker} you can still have some kind of cushioning that's not visible to the to the user .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Very {disfmarker} too expensive to do .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: And also uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: And I mean you could also , you can have just a very thin veneer of wood as well .
Project Manager: Yeah but it's more easier to do a banana in plastic than uh in wood .
User Interface: That's true , but are we set on the banana idea ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well it look like {disfmarker}
Marketing: Actually
Project Manager: it looks like you are all targeting that
Marketing: I was thinking that the
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah ?
Marketing: the shape of a banana is not it's not really handy .
Project Manager: Yes it is .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh I don't know the name o o in English uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} This {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Is it an e apple which has {disfmarker}
Marketing: it's not a fruit it's a vegetable .
User Interface: It's like a pumpkin or {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah ? Pumpkin .
Marketing: Green .
Project Manager: Green .
User Interface: Green .
Project Manager: Um um um , yes I see .
User Interface: What does it taste like ?
Marketing: And you put in the salad .
Project Manager: Pep pepperoni .
User Interface: Ah yeah ,
Marketing: Um
User Interface: is it {disfmarker} what's it in French ?
Project Manager: Poivron .
Marketing: Oui c'est ca
User Interface: Yeah , okay , so capsicum or pepper . Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh pepper .
Marketing: Pepper .
Project Manager: But um they do d
Marketing: And it's al it also suits with the double curve for easy of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't know , it seems a little bit kind of bulky to me , like
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: No , I mean in a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's not re it {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} like with a banana you can have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: you you think it's really fancy and fun ? You think that young people that are {disfmarker}
Marketing: I'm sure it's fun . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . More than a banana ?
Marketing: But banana is not so handy ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Banana is more handier as compared to this I think , and to capsicum .
Marketing: I think that's handier .
User Interface: But {gap} like a banana you can you can be holding like this and have the scroll wheel kind of on top
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: and just roll it back and forth like that ,
Project Manager: It's kind it's kind of {disfmarker} it's more uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: but with uh {disfmarker} I don't know how you would hold a capsicum and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it's really ergonomic , it's fit in the hand and you've a lot of surface to {vocalsound} to put the controls .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay let's move on .
Marketing: Yeah you're right .
Project Manager: So time is running , let's move on .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so push buttons for the traditional users so that they don't feel they are alienated , just {disfmarker} and a scroll button with push technology for channel selection , volume control and teletext browsing . These are the three scroll buttons which are already available with us in the company and we we can go ahead with that .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we can go to the next slide . Then uh there are different kind of chips , one one is the basic chip and the regular chip and one an adva advanced chip . So we can have regular chip for control . Pricing is a factor for us , that's why we'll go for the regular chip . And uh regular chip supports speaker support , so this functionality could be used for tracing the mobile phone which has been misplaced .
User Interface: So is that , when you say speaker support , you mean it just has some output pinned which which which kind of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It could be a beep kind of thing .
User Interface: Okay , but the speaker is actually attached to the to the chip in some way , or is just the the signal ?
Industrial Designer: Yes , yes , that's right , it's it's onto the chip ,
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: most most probably , not not hundred per cent sure about that .
User Interface: Okay . So are there any issues where we place this this chip to make sure you can actually hear the the speaker from the outside of the banana ?
Industrial Designer: That will be the volume control I think which which a user shou it it should be already pre-defined . It should be {disfmarker} whatever will be the case , the chip is always going to be sitting inside .
User Interface: Okay . Yeah , but the speaker , if the speaker is actually on the chip , then if it's too far away from the the casing , or if the casing is too thick , then you may not hear the the speaker .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Uh , so we can have it at one of the boundaries so that things are slightly better .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: As {disfmarker} or as hearing is concerned , we can have some gap at some place ,
User Interface: Yeah . So that's something we have to keep in mind with the actual physical design is to keep the the speaker close enough to the outside .
Industrial Designer: so that {disfmarker} That's right . Okay . Yeah . So these these were the component selection and these things . We can go to the next slide . And uh these were the findings which I I saw with the web web , that user wants to have control more than one device {disfmarker} wants to control more than one device from the same remote control , so our T_V_ remote can have little extra things to support additional devices like V_C_R_ D_V_D_ players which are usually attached with the T_V_ , because users are like this and they don't want to have one remote control for everything , so with this additional little , we might be having slightly better market for us .
User Interface: Although , if {disfmarker} It depends , if we like , if we are concentrating on like a fruit design , then maybe maybe we wanna sell a collection of fruit , you know , like a different fruit for each device .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Of fruits .
User Interface: Cause that , you know , that {disfmarker} sometimes people like to collect um you know things that {disfmarker} of a similar type .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: S objects .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Remotes {disfmarker} objects , okay .
Project Manager: Crazy objects .
Marketing: I think that would be funny at the beginning but after one month you will be tired of be surrounded of fruits .
User Interface: Well , {vocalsound} you're the one who wanted to do fruit in the first place .
Marketing: No but I think just one fruit to control everything .
User Interface: Like a power fruit .
Marketing: A power fr a power M a Mando , a Supermando fruit {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And uh as well as I could see on the web the scroll button is becoming really uh hot thing s
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and we should have it on the remote .
Project Manager: Okay , good .
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Actually I I didn't understand very well this trace speaker lost control .
Industrial Designer: So you're having a basis station . Okay . Your {disfmarker} usually your remote sits on that . So you {disfmarker} and it's {disfmarker} that's why it can have chargeable batteries . Now let's say {disfmarker}
Marketing: So you you have to buy two things , the banana and the basis station .
Project Manager: Bu it's it's {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Basis station is with the thing .
Project Manager: You s you you {gap} thing .
Industrial Designer: It's like a telephone handset is there and the basis station for the telephone hand set is there . So now what user gets additionally he doesn't have to buy batteries , they're rechargeable batteries , so over the period of cor time he'll recover the cost . So you're having the basis station and there is a button , if you press that button wherever the remote it'll start beeping so you know where the remote is . Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think that's a pretty handy feature .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: I think it's kind of {disfmarker} people would find that worth it even if it wasn't uh a recharging station , even if they didn't have to buy extra batteries , you know .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah but I'm a bit worried about the budget . {gap}
Industrial Designer: Uh this is {disfmarker} basis station is nothing more , just it's a wire which is coming from the main cable and uh you're having one socket on which the thing sits .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Although you do need to include R_F_ kind of circuitry in the remote .
Industrial Designer: That's right . But all these things are usually in-house so we don't have much problems .
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: So component cost is going to be the least . Anyway , we are not using really advanced technology , L_C_D_ has already been ruled out , A_S_R_ has been ruled out . So it's the basic thing but very trendy and very user-friendly .
User Interface: Okay . I'm just wondering actually , 'cause , you know , I {disfmarker} this whole fruit thing with the banana , it's um it seemed like {disfmarker} it first seems a bit kind of uh niche , like only a few people would really want a banana ,
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker}
User Interface: but what if it was kind of uh a stylised banana ? You know , rather than having it kind of you know yellow and really looking exactly like a banana , you could make it kind of silver . And um , you know to give you kind of the idea of a banana but without it looking you know completely kitsch . {vocalsound} For better {disfmarker} want of a better word
Project Manager: You think that yellow it's kitsch .
User Interface: you know ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well , you know , I don I don't know how many peop
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: If you make something that looks like a banana it should have the colour of a banana .
Marketing: Yeah . No , I I {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: A {disfmarker} yeah , otherwise it'll be mis means you don't get b any feeling then .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well they {disfmarker}
Project Manager: O otherwise {disfmarker}
Marketing: Maybe li like that .
Industrial Designer: It's neither a banana nor a {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , like this colour this colour {disfmarker} Maybe , you know , maybe {disfmarker} like still in the shape of a banana .
Project Manager: Roughly .
User Interface: {vocalsound} No , exactly .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Exactly . Um , but you know , just maybe maybe not exactly the same texture as a banana and just kind of , you know {disfmarker} because the thing is it's gonna be a little bit difficult to make {disfmarker} um to give like the texture of a banana anyway and to k to have the exact shape . I think if you're gonna not be able to do it properly you may as well do it in a stylised way that just looks a bit more kind of , you know , twenty first century rather than sixties or seventies .
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay . Let's move on .
Industrial Designer: And uh going to the last slide .
Project Manager: Uh uh {disfmarker} yeah . Before before st before ending the meeting I'd like to to draw some sketch about the pro future prot prototype .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Go for it .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Well no , not not you , you can finish your slides before {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay . Okay , so . Anyway , users'll be {disfmarker} so the findings is users'll be very interested in our locator device to find their misplaced remotes .
Project Manager: Mm {vocalsound} okay .
Industrial Designer: So that was very {disfmarker} I thought it's a very good suggestion by everybody .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: That's it .
Project Manager: That's all ?
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: Okay , so mm {vocalsound} so well done for the presentations . So we need to take some de decisions about um {vocalsound} about what we're going to do .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So I I propose that you go to the whiteboard
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: and we're going to report all the ideas we had we had during this these presentations just to draw some sketch about what will be the prod final product
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: and uh where Superman go banana and uh {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: uh extra func functionalities such as wheels , um the speaker unit um well not in order {disfmarker} not to lost the um the device ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: I do I don't remember you call it ?
Industrial Designer: That's right . The basis station . That's right .
Project Manager: Basis station , yeah . Uh so um {vocalsound} so we're going for a stylish banana shape .
User Interface: Yeah , so , I guess you wanna hold {disfmarker} like the way {disfmarker} the end of the banana you wanna kind of hold as ma you maybe wanna kinda hold like a gun rather than {disfmarker} 'cause you don't want it to point kind of towards the floor .
Project Manager: Yeah , right .
User Interface: So you know , so if you have like {disfmarker}
Marketing: What about what about this shape ? More or less .
Project Manager: We
Industrial Designer: There's less space on this to put with the buttons .
Project Manager: I if it i if it has really the model shape of a bana you could {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , but how many buttons do we need ?
Project Manager: the the starting is good but it could {disfmarker} it should have more the shape of a banana if you want to point really a at the thing . If you don't want to to to do that movement which is which is difficult {disfmarker} if you don't have to do it in fact , it's better . So ti time is running ,
Industrial Designer: Uh what about a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we have to we have to we have to to move forward . So let's skip to uh this uh this this this idea . Yeah .
User Interface: Okay , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So we have this .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We have a a basis um , how do you call it {gap} ?
Industrial Designer: The base station .
Project Manager: A base station .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We'll have a base station extra uh on the side .
User Interface: {gap} okay , so I guess we need , you know , something that can fit a banana shaped object .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh , we have a R_F_ for um for beeping for beeping .
Industrial Designer: That's right , yeah , we need that , yeah .
Project Manager: We need b R_F_ to beep .
User Interface: Okay , so it's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So we {disfmarker} that means we need a button on th on the on the basis .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Basis station .
Project Manager: Basis station , thank you . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Alright , so we need uh {disfmarker} okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Can you go quickly please ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} So we are going to add uh also um you {disfmarker} as you suggested the whee some wheels to control the volumes and channels and your tur turbo turbo uh button .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah , which {disfmarker} I think it's it's probably best actually on the on the underneath of the the device ,
Industrial Designer: Turbo button .
Project Manager: Yeah , on the th yeah , maybe here .
User Interface: so you have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And the and the wheel a a at the level of the thumb for instance .
User Interface: Yes . Yeah , so you have the thumb kind of here .
Project Manager: And and you have two wheels .
User Interface: So yeah , you need one one here and one on on the other side , so you got volume an and channel .
Project Manager: Okay right . Good . So no L_C_D_ .
User Interface: And , uh {disfmarker} No L_C_D_ .
Project Manager: Okay great . {vocalsound} Um . {vocalsound} Very good .
User Interface: Oh we need a we need a power um on off switch as well .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh for the remote ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Oh , just the switch ,
Industrial Designer: Remotes don't have power on off switch .
Project Manager: no f not for the T_V_ for the T_V_ . Uh so you {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay . S no , that'll be controlled by the {disfmarker} those buttons'll be there already , yeah .
Marketing: What a
User Interface: Where ?
Industrial Designer: Means on the remote .
Project Manager: On the side .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Because remote is going to have both the interfaces , scroll as well as buttons . They are not going to cost you much , everything is in-house and now you don't want the traditional users to be apprehensive of this .
User Interface: Well , I dunno if the traditional user is gonna buy a a banana remote in the first place , you know .
Industrial Designer: Oh , yeah . That's that's another issue which I didn't think of .
User Interface: Y I mean you need to kind of keep it um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But you know our targets are very high , means fifty million Euros is the profit which we want make .
Marketing: What about {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , how many of these did we wanna sell ? I can't remember ,
Industrial Designer: Twenty five .
Project Manager: Twenty five .
Industrial Designer: Twelve point five is the profit on one .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , but how many units did we need to to sell {gap} ?
Industrial Designer: Uh forty th four . Point point four million ?
Marketing: Four millions ?
User Interface: Four point four million .
Industrial Designer: Point four million .
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's a lot of fruit .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} In the market .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} What about a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . So . Well . No . Time is running , we have to close the meeting in a few minutes .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So , okay , the next step , you can come back to your seat .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: The next step is to go for {vocalsound} {disfmarker} to f is to go to uh to building a prototype , based on this , okay ?
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So next meeting you guys have to prepare the followi things . You have to uh work on the look and feel uh design and you have to work on the user interface , in fact you two you have to work together to model the first uh f first prototype .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Uh Marketing Expert uh have to go to product evaluation .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay ?
Marketing: I wo what about adding the {disfmarker} this word spotting , keyword spotting recognition saying {gap} volume up volume down ?
Project Manager: It's too difficult .
Marketing: It's too difficult but people like innovation and that's really uh innovative and I don't know if it would cost a lot , just a few {disfmarker} five words .
Project Manager: It's not a possi it will not be possible to implement it for the next prototype , so t it's {disfmarker} in the next prototype so let's skip it .
User Interface: Uh .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: For the future prototypes . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , maybe , for the n if if if it it works well , we'll go for uh an orange one .
User Interface: That can be the t That can be like the turbo banana plus plus commando .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah yeah , honour the fruit .
Marketing: Plus plus , okay . Maybe objective banana ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Thanks very much . We'll see n next meeting . Bye .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So meeting's over ?
User Interface: Yep . We have to go design the prototype .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Okay . Okay . Thank you .
Project Manager: Thank you .
Marketing: Thank you .
Industrial Designer: The problem is after all this meeting there is {gap} {vocalsound} {gap}
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doc_40
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Project Manager: So we are here to talk about functional design . Now hopefully we've all got a better idea from {vocalsound} {disfmarker} than we did f leaving the last meeting as to what it is we are up to now . So here's an agenda . Uh I'll open . Um you should know that I'll be taking minutes during all the meetings , as I was struggling to our last time uh and that'll be easier for me now because I'm not actually giving the whole presentation . Uh the additional points are just the stuff that we sent and that I forwarded on from upper management having a few bright ideas to make our lives painful .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} now {vocalsound} you can all give your presentations . We can talk about the requirements and hopefully come to some decisions . {vocalsound} Right , forty minutes for this meeting , so a bit more time than the last one . Here's the additional points I just wanted to put those in there to see if you guys had any comments on them . Uh did you all receive that email ?
User Interface: Yep .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So does anyone have any overall {gap}
Marketing: Well {vocalsound} uh what comes up for me is that if we're gonna if we're gonna be marketing a product that is going to be uh having {vocalsound} no teletext , people are very comfortable {vocalsound} with {vocalsound} the idea of having teletext and using teletext , and so we're not {disfmarker} we're gonna be a new product without something that people are very comfortable having right now .
Project Manager: Mm . Mm . Yep .
Marketing: So that's , from a marketing perspective I I see I see a lack .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: And so we have to go , I think , in the other direction . What are we gonna have that makes this thing better than {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well tha that first point could uh also be an op opportunity because in seeing that teletext is becoming outdated , some sort remote control that can work with the Internet {disfmarker} {vocalsound} there is the opportunity that's presented , I guess .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Right . Yeah . No , I I agree with you .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So what I'm talking about is I see that one side we're eliminating something so we have to come up with another side which is , what are we gonna be targeting our market uh that {vocalsound} identifies our product as better than {disfmarker} because it doesn't have teletext it has ta-ta-ta-ta-ta .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So that's that's that was my reactions .
Project Manager: Yeah . but but we are sort of being dictated that this should only be for the television .
Marketing: Yeah yeah .
Project Manager: So we're quite fixed . So we're really probably , in terms of marketing , are looking for that's uh that's a cost winner rather than a fantastic new feature product .
Marketing: Yep .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah bu but we we're designing only the remote ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: we not design the T_V_ .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: So uh we're gonna be removing the teletext out of any T_V_ that we {disfmarker} people use our remote with .
Marketing: Yeah . 'Kay .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: That's right .
Industrial Designer: So it's kind of a stupid decision .
Marketing: I think we take with you .
Project Manager: But there's also the potential for mark there's a market here for our lost teletext .
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: For example someone that just goes to the shop that wants a replacement {disfmarker} wants it as {vocalsound} cheap as possible . Twenty-five Euros is the selling price , we really have to innovate here I guess .
Marketing: That's what I'm that's what I'm talking about is is that we have to find something that is gonna be very attractive about this product 'cause somebody , some people are gonna be hap unhappy 'cause it took {disfmarker} they can't ac access their teletext .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Okay . 'Cause we're talking about {vocalsound} eighty percent or ninety percent or ninety-five percent of the televisions out there are are teletext .
Project Manager: K yeah .
Marketing: So so it's it's not that I'm criticizing the product at all . It's just when we eliminate that then what do we bring ? What are we bringing in to take the place of this ,
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
Marketing: and we have to d {disfmarker} in my opinion we have to double up .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: If we lose one we need to bring two or three .
Project Manager: Okay . Okay I think that the {vocalsound} last point is probably quite uh straightforward . Obviously the the {disfmarker} w it has to be branded . 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: So then the double R_ will be our our {disfmarker}
Project Manager: On the product yeah . Can you handle that black and yellow ?
User Interface: I think one of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I tho I tho I thou I think Rol Ro Rolls-Royce might mind , but don't worry .
User Interface: I think w , yeah , one of the things that we should also keep in mind um when we're doing this {disfmarker} I mean our company's slogan is we put the fashion in electronics , right . So I think our kind of {disfmarker} our target here is to {vocalsound} have some kind of very like sleek {vocalsound} nice look remote and we want it to be functional as well , but I think one of the main selling points is that we don't want it to be clunky like like this thing here .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: You know we don't wanna a big clunker . We want something that looks nice and it's fashionable and so {disfmarker}
Marketing: So you have this ?
Project Manager: Nah . So we have three presentations , and I think we'll go in order of participant number here . So we can have a look at the working design first from participant two . That's {disfmarker} {gap} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: That's fine . Okay so
Project Manager: Mm it's enough . But uh click it on off ?
User Interface: so you all know me , I'm the Industrial Designer . And we've some basic components that um our remote is gonna need , just basically every remote'll need 'em .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: We need some kinda of power d power source . Um we have to decide on our our user interface , which is his department , but the in user interface is also a major component . Um we need a programmable digital signal processor to um to take the input from the user and translate that into uh into electronic signal , which we pass to the infra-red L_E_D_ , which you aim at the television uh which {disfmarker} and it receives that signal . You need a on-off switch um I don't know how that got in there . And uh we also need to um have the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if we want a universal remote we need to have encryption codes for the different makes of T_V_s . So we need to know all the different you know all the different signals and so that'll require some memory as well . Um so here's just a basic layout of how how the remote would work . You ha the v the power source is in the upper right-hand corner there , and you can see that uh we have the user interface here which is connected to the chip which does all our signal processing , and then passes that signal on to the infra-red L_E_D_ and that signal is then emitted and received by the television at the photo-transistor . So {vocalsound} those are the basic components that need to go into this and everything else is pretty much uh open to move around .
Marketing: Now is {disfmarker} would this be {vocalsound} considered just a standard uh um {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think any des
Marketing: This is not this is not cutting edge technology we're talking here .
User Interface: No .
Marketing: We're talking about existing technology .
User Interface: Right I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: Nothing is being modified or upgraded or new discoveries .
User Interface: Yeah this is just {disfmarker} this is just a basic layout of ev {vocalsound} of all the components that w w are gonna be absolutely necessary f to have a working remote . We can add things in like if we wanted some voice recognition , I mean that {vocalsound} I mean {vocalsound} that you can kinda say would {vocalsound} would fall under the user interface and the digital signal processing chip .
Marketing: Okay . Okay .
Project Manager: Do we have an idea of costs of different components ?
User Interface: Um well the most the most costly components are gonna be the chip and the uh th it could als basically the user interface and the casing are gonna be expensive as well .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: Um the L_E_D_ and the the transistors and everything else are you know they're they're pretty cheap . So depending on what we want our functionality to be , um the chip could be expensive or it could be cheap .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: Um depending on the n amount of memory we need in there and stuff like that and h and h {vocalsound} you know how much power .
Project Manager: Do we have any ballpark figures for that yet ? No .
User Interface: Uh I don't have any figures right now .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: We uh we have to wait until we get to a more specific design phase for that .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Um but {disfmarker} and I think a significant part of the cost could be the actual the actual casing itself and and you know the the b the buttons and things like that , I think .
Marketing: N okay . Mm . Mm the shell ?
User Interface: Yeah . Basically yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: So yeah . That's all I have really .
Project Manager: Okay . Thanks . And we have participant three , which I believe is Pedro .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I can give you that to click on .
Industrial Designer: Hey mouse .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Open . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And you wanna get {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: When we're fighting over it's also more {disfmarker} lot more fun . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: View a slide show , that's what you wanna do , yeah ? Just go up to view .
User Interface: Click , don't {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay
Industrial Designer: This doesn't work . {vocalsound} So yeah function design . Um you guys know me , Pedro , and um what I found is we want to do fashion and I think , honestly , we should keep technology low and just simple basically and try to aim for design . If basically a case will will cost the same if it looks good or bad so we ma we have to make it look good . Um something cute and small . The big chunky remotes are died in the eighties . So we should just go for something that people will like to actually look at .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And um although mo most people will buy s televisions and everything for uh {disfmarker} that have loads of loads of little functions and everything and they mostly end up using simple functions and little things and most the people won't won't get too mad of actually having to go the {disfmarker} to the s to the television to , for instance , tune in their {disfmarker} the stations . There's no need to have that in the remote . So um um as for what I would recommend for uh the the interface design , and uh I will change the colours on the on the logo , but {vocalsound} um we should go for the user-oriented device , so simple controls and good ergonomics . Um and uh although I th I th I'm still here recommending the teletext so I'll remove that , I guess , but um we should go for the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But I t I think what the {vocalsound} the management recommendation was less that there's a worry that teletext will become outdated rather than we shouldn't have it . So I I still think if it's cheap enough functionality-wise to include , it really should be in there .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Because otherwise we're just going to {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} even if it's necessary or not , if you {disfmarker} if you're given the choice between a t a remote with teletext or without uh when it really {disfmarker} if it i {vocalsound} if it isn't more expensive for us to k make {disfmarker} because as far as I understand it , {vocalsound} it can be operated with the same set of buttons , yeah ? So it should be in there .
User Interface: Right as far as {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: i it's just uh {vocalsound} the cost of an extra button . I mean software-wise there's really no difference .
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay . Isn't {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I have maybe a silly question . I {disfmarker} in the very beginning it said with the with the advent of computers there's gonna be the {disfmarker} it's gonna be out-moded teletext . I I don't understand how those two things are connected . How does how does computers and teletext {disfmarker} h how {disfmarker} why is one eliminating the need of the other ? I don't understand that .
Project Manager: Well maybe what we're getting into here is the the idea of uh Internet through the T_V_ for example . So that might play on what we can do .
Industrial Designer: Yeah the they're basically aiming at saying that {vocalsound} you would use {disfmarker} you know a couple of years ago teletext to be the easiest way to check like for uh uh the scheduling and the next programme and stuff like that
User Interface: Scheduling . Um to find out what what you're watching even if there's commercials you know .
Industrial Designer: and now {disfmarker} Yeah
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: and now you can c look it over Internet . But I still think teletext is way more convenient until until we have the same commodities .
User Interface: I think I ha I agree .
Marketing: Yeah 'cause , yeah , I just {disfmarker} I don't see the cross-over between computers and television . I mean I do see the cross-over in some sense ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but it's not happen yet . Yeah .
Marketing: but but but but with the {disfmarker} the remote is is used for television , okay .
User Interface: Well for me {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well you have digital T_V_ still already .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So so if we make the cross-over and we're gonna view television on computers then we're then we're losing the the necessity of the remote . S
User Interface: Unless you have a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well there there is a {disfmarker} for example on digital T_V_ systems you have {disfmarker} you can press a button and you can buy things in adverts ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: and you can uh you can view through a catalogue for example .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: A a family member of mine has got a system where you just um you can {disfmarker} Yeah , and there's other features for example on other systems where you can pause live T_V_ and things like that . They're just features from the Internet uh from computers are are coming into the T_V_ sort of under the covers , but you still use it through a teletext .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: So now the things to think here are that that there's gonna be more functionality , potentially that we can handle .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but we we don't we're not aiming a command for that . That's the thing . And all of those require the other commands with more complexity and more software and {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap} I think a lot of that's proprietary anyways . You're not gonna be able to , you , like command a TiVo with our remote . I don't think .
Project Manager: Mm . But still there there's an opportunity . If if it's {vocalsound} , for example , a trainable one then we're {vocalsound} just simply having like an up , down , left , right , an okay button or something like that might might do as well in future proofing it . {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but we would increase the price to try to make it a trainable one , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Well I dunno . One way the other teletext was there but I guess we can remove it or , you know , make two separate interface designs .
User Interface: I think if it's possible you should try to you know have a talk with management about that . Just you know {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah I don't I don't see the logic .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: I I don't see the logic in elimination of teletext , I just I I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , and neither do I in fact .
Marketing: but I'm not a tech-mind either . I just don't see the cross-over between computers and and and
Project Manager: Bu uh .
Marketing: {disfmarker} 'Cause we are designing something for a television , okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'll communicate that back to those guys there a a and th the message really we wanna be sending to them is that , although teletext may become outdated w there's no l logic in not having it in there anyway i if it doesn't affect the price .
User Interface: Right it's just not
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um but I I think what they're pushing us towards here is in terms of thinking of ways to future-proof our system for future systems that have something else other than teletext maybe .
User Interface: {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: We are selling it to an existing market .
Project Manager: I dunno I'm {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but we're not putting some {disfmarker} there's no no putting anything in in the place of teletext .
Marketing: That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
Marketing: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: That's the problem .
Marketing: and and , yeah , and and we're also {vocalsound} marketing a product . It's {disfmarker} what I'm seeing is a is a mid-range cost product .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: So so w we can't go and pump a whole bunch of technology into this thing
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: because all of a sudden we are gonna have cost overruns . So if we drop {disfmarker} if we are gonna choose to drop teletext , again what are we adding to the product that makes it marketable ?
Project Manager: Hmm . So if we're keeping it basic we're loo loo what we're looking to sell it basically is it's uh just being very easy to use , looking exceptionally good , that sort of thing . 'Cause we really don't have anything else there , do we ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: I don't I don't see it , and to me if I'm gonna market a product for b for beauty for for design I'm gonna I'm gonna try to market it at a much higher price . I need to make it special with a high price tag . I don't want to make it economically uh g uh competitive .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: I want I want to market it as exclusive . So I would market this product it {disfmarker} at eighty-nine Euros and come up with some really {vocalsound} beautiful exterior design or something th but but I don't think we have that flexibility .
Project Manager: But i if design if design is cheap and functionality is basic , then twenty-five Euros is probably a high price for a commoner garden {disfmarker} stan standard T_V_ so the place {disfmarker} uh remote the then the place we're going to justify that cost is through through design through making it a a sleek elegant {vocalsound} high-priced basic remote . Does that make sense , huh ?
Marketing: No I no I I understand what you say ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: but what I'm what I'm , okay {disfmarker} we probably need to move along ,
Project Manager: Yeah we probably should .
Marketing: but my my concern is trying to find a marketing niche for this product ,
Project Manager: We we're doing alright for time .
Marketing: and if I'm coming in with a with with twenty-five Euros , which is mid-market price , um then what am I going to give these people for this ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So that's just my question , but we can keep talking .
Project Manager: Okay . Sorry that kinda cut into you there .
Industrial Designer: No just I I would I would advocate for continuing teletext and those would be the basic commands . Um as for , you know , the the case design uh maybe I'll come up with more concrete ideas . Right now it's just the idea of simplicity and slickness , cute and small um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Right . I'm just thinking you know with all these universal remotes that are out there , how many people {vocalsound} how many people actually use every feature that ar you know i like these trainable remotes and things like that , where , you know , it's just so confusing to do {vocalsound} to use all these functions . Where I think the largest portion of the market is just gonna {disfmarker} you know they lost their T_V_ remote , they need another one that'll work with their T_V_ . They want something that looks nice , that that that isn't gonna break when they drop it , that you know that maybe it's it's ergonomic , it feels good in your hand , something like that .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: I think that's gonna be where you're gonna find the biggest , you know , market share .
Project Manager: So we are looking for something that looks good and just works , rather than looking for any special features . Is that {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think the more bells and whistles we add , it's just gonna cut into our into our profits .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Because I think as we as we add costs for things like uh {disfmarker} for like if we add the voice recognition and things like that , I think {vocalsound} you know what percentage of the of the um of the market is actually gonna use that ?
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Maybe five percent , you know ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah mm .
Project Manager: But we can talk a little bit more potentially in the marketing marketing presentation about this .
User Interface: and how much {disfmarker} Right . Yeah okay .
Project Manager: Be a good idea .
User Interface: I'm sorry .
Project Manager: Uh sorry , I didn't mean to cut in {vocalsound} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Sorry boss {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: I'm not the boss {vocalsound} . Okay .
Marketing: Oh P Pedro , I just want to say quickly I I would really like it when you can come up with some more bells and whistles , eh .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You know sell uh {disfmarker} things come to my mind is uh uh something that's uh {vocalsound} um voice-activated . I know we're getting into some , I hope , some big money on this thing , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think that's probably a question more for for this guy here , yeah .
Marketing: Is that for over here ?
User Interface: Yeah . Well it's kinda both of us .
Marketing: Okay , alright .
Project Manager: Is it ?
User Interface: Us us user interface .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: That's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: 'Cause uh and I think of voice-activated I think of of {vocalsound} how many times I've I've lost my my remote and I can't find it . So some way that I can I can find my remote by clapping my hands or something
User Interface: Mm-hmm . I was thinking about that . Then your lights would go off , though . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: uh and and so so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But this 's just something . I'm trying to find some bells and whistles 'cause when they talk about tel taking out teletext , it's like , what are we gonna put in ? What makes this thing attractive ? And it's only for televisions . So we {disfmarker} everyth our our competition out there has got these these multiple adaptors where they can use 'em for their V_C_R_s , their D_V_D_s , their {vocalsound} their televisions and we're coming out with one remote for television only . And so to me we have to make this a really special product
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I I I don't s I really have to say I don't see the market niche for this product . At this price I don't see it yet . I'm {disfmarker} I I go along with this , because this is what we're given to try to market , but I I don't see the market niche for this product without without some really sort of something really special to identify it as as unique in the market .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: But we th that should be design .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: That should be the design basically .
User Interface: Right .
Industrial Designer: I think technology we'd we {disfmarker} we're not in the price range to do it . We don't have the money to do it towards t f technology so we should we should aim at design .
Marketing: Okay . Have to do {disfmarker} you have to do it in the box ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Okay well , so so that's up to you then to {vocalsound} to make this box in something that's absolutely extraordinary .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Maybe make it in the form of a gun . We can sell it in United States .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I have a question uh for you . Does any of the um the features that Pedro's spoken about here have any implications we might not have thought about on in terms of just pure functionality ? In terms of making it work or the cost of that or {disfmarker}
User Interface: I don't {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I think all these things are pretty standard . I think we'll be okay .
Project Manager: Okay . 'Kay . Cheers . Onto participant {vocalsound} four . {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well {vocalsound} you know for marketing f {vocalsound} marketing for me is uh {disfmarker} and uh how do I go here ? Okay .
User Interface: Mm you can just click .
Marketing: Go go .
User Interface: No no no
Marketing: Is that right ?
User Interface: you just get off that . You just click anywhere .
Marketing: Ah-ha . Yeah , what for me is it um {disfmarker} I d I don't know what I'm marketing right now , okay , 'til you spoke and when I wrote this , I don't know what I'm marketing . I just know that I I was identified as a a {disfmarker} we identified ourselves as a as a developer , as a manufacturer , and as a as a um distributor t to other wholesalers . And so the th the twenty-five Euros that we've identified as the sale price is a wholesale price rather than a retail price .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: That's what we decided here . Um so what I did is I I decided that {vocalsound} that this this needs to be a product in a in a sense can market itself . So what we've identified here as our main marketing stratagem is is in design . We're making the most beautiful attractive uh whatever we decide it is . So that means we have about seven more minutes or ten minutes left .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um {vocalsound} so I would like to have a product that that we can sell easily . So I say inspiration , so having something beauty , something attractive , uh something that in a sense will sell itself .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Uh innovation I think fits into what we're talking about here with design . Uh cutting edge technology , I don't think we're gonna have that , these were ideas I was putting together , um unless we come up with some New Age product a as far as the casing is concerned . I I wanna make this thing something that I can identify as special in some way , so maybe we can have some {disfmarker} I I talked about environmentally sensitive , uh maybe we have a product that can be identified in some way as advantageous in a home . I don't know . These are just thoughts . Uh I wanted to talk about uh who we are as a as a corporation , that we're new , we're aggressive , we're competitive , we're we're trying to provide a product from a new perspective rather than from an old corporate line . So to me it's about selling d uh our identity {disfmarker} our corporate identity along with the product . {vocalsound} Um what I found is that the projected costs are competitive .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Uh we're kind of in the middle of the market , but what I'm seeing is that the market is ready for {disfmarker} I I identified new technology , but again , because what I see is budget restrictions and limitations , I don't know that we can bring any new technology into this thing . If if we could have a technological something {disfmarker}
User Interface: I have an idea .
Marketing: Mm p please .
User Interface: And it's kind of {vocalsound} along the s lines of environmentally sensitive , and it may even fit into ergonomics , and even kind of address the issue of losing losing the remote , what we were saying it's a common issue .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Um what we can do is , well you know that batteries {disfmarker} throwing a aw remotes run through batteries like crazy . Right ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Solar . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: And {vocalsound} s for some people {disfmarker} Yeah {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Well maybe not a solar remote but instead what about if we had like a power cradle ?
Marketing: But solar {disfmarker}
User Interface: Like a a cradle that is is there to hold the remote when you're not using it , so you'll always know where the remote is 'cause you have to put it back there to charge the remote , and we can , instead of having instead of having , you know , replaceable batteries we'll just have a power cell that stays there for the life of the remote . You never have to get {disfmarker} go through the {disfmarker} go through {vocalsound} uh all these different batteries . And also you can {disfmarker} I I think it's a good opportunity for the user design {disfmarker} or for {disfmarker} not just for the user design , but also for the {disfmarker} just for the look and feel of the remote as as a whole . You know you could have some kind of neat little , you know , {vocalsound} a sexy design for d a cradle and the remote itself .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Blah , I like it . I like the idea , but we're talking about {disfmarker} in cost is gonna probably double .
User Interface: It w it would increase the cost .
Marketing: But boy , we can sell this thing , because there's no batteries , it's environmentally sensitive , i we can identify it as a safer product in some form .
User Interface: And you could page the remote if you lose it . Maybe there's a button on the cradle .
Marketing: Yep , that's right . I really see
Project Manager: Now the the question is can we make this for less than twelve-fifty per ?
Marketing: But the cost i No no . No no , we have t we have to change the end cost .
Project Manager: We we well do we necessarily have to change the end cost because uh {vocalsound} Can we dl can we do that without {vocalsound} uh changing it twelve-fifty per product , if we basically can sell more based on this ?
Marketing: There's uh {disfmarker} I mean I don't see it anyway . Yeah , that's gonna be up to these guys .
User Interface: Well
Marketing: I {vocalsound} {disfmarker} my reaction is no , but
User Interface: {vocalsound} what I can do is I can d look into ho well Pedro and I can look into how much this might increase our our costs
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and you can look into what kind of effect an increased cost is gonna have on our on our final numbers .
Project Manager: Yeah we we can certainly push for a more expensive product if that's gonna be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well , see I I {disfmarker} see I I'm an advocate to make this an exclusive product . You know , let's let's sell this wholesale for for fifty Euros , sixty Euros . Let's make this thing really exclusive , environmentally sensitive , uh high-tech design , uh ergonomics , all of this . Just make this thing uh , yeah , the the the Rolls Royce of of remote controls .
User Interface: I {vocalsound} I {disfmarker}
Marketing: Every home's got to have it . If you don't have one , hey what kind of remote do you have ? Oh you've got one of those , oh fantastic , I want one of those too .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I just don't have enough money right now .
User Interface: I just don't know about that , because in order to do that {vocalsound} {disfmarker} in order to price it at that kind of level I think we'd need to have every functionality that all the other competitors are offering like being able to operate , you know , the D_V_D_ player and , you know , the stereo system and all that . Which is a pretty basic function that w we've opted out of . And additionally we're m maybe not supporting teletext um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Nah , I think we can say with certainty now that we are supporting teletext .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But I do think there are some basic features that we don't have that a lot of other remotes are going to have .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yep , one one thing I don't understand is h they've they've given us this package , okay .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Now uh in my opinion we need to give them a package back , okay . They say they say okay here you go . They gave us a fundament a foundation of of what they want ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and and w it's our place to kinda analyse and evaluate . I don't think it's our place to create their product for them , maybe it is . I don't know what kind of role we have in this {disfmarker} in the corporate ladder uh , but to me it's like , okay , you have got your {disfmarker} here's our ideas , okay .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: And then let them look at those ideas and they say , yeah well , we can we can raise the price twenty percent , you know we like this idea , this idea no , but {vocalsound} to me it's it's about a choice , do we follow their directives or do we make uh presentations back and and then and then discuss ? beca I I do not {disfmarker} I do not see the market niche for the product that they're handing f handing us right now .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: I don I I d
Marketing: I don't see it .
User Interface: I have to disagree though . I think our market niche is basically people who need {vocalsound} {disfmarker} who have lost their remote or uh who've broken their remote and don't wanna send back to the manufacturer , they just wanna run out to the store and get a remote , and then they're gonna look on the shelf and they're gonna see ours is the nicest looking remote . It does what they need . These aren't {disfmarker} I I think that it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And and th to get to back to another point , sorry uh uh {vocalsound} for cutting in but , I th I think it's important to remember that that this remote has to work with multiple T_V_s , yeah , 'cause it's selling on its own .
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: It's not going to be specifically for Hitachi T_V_s or or whatever .
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: No I understand that .
Project Manager: So technologically , if I understand it , uh T_V_s {vocalsound} T_V_ remote's working exactly the same way as video remotes and D_V_D_ remotes . All you need to do is train them to the individual one , all you need to do is is know the the f like some four-digit code .
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: So saying that it works with all T_V_s is equivalent to saying that it'll work with D_V_D_s and other things .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Nope , they've identified the product as not working for anything but televisions .
Project Manager: Oh okay okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah y y you you wouldn't {disfmarker}
Marketing: They've identified this product limita
Project Manager: We have done this .
Marketing: That's why I say I don't I don't see the market niche for this .
Industrial Designer: The interface will be different .
Project Manager: I see .
Marketing: If we if w if we were going to have a product that worked for D_V_D_s , V_C_R_s and everything , then I can see the market niche ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: but we we're only identified as going for televisions without teletext .
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: And it's like whoa we ha in my opinion we have to go with something that's extremely exclusive to make this thing marketable ,
User Interface: Well here's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And I I'd {disfmarker}
Marketing: because who wants just a television remote ?
Project Manager: Mm sorry .
User Interface: Right . We he well here's my thing about that .
Marketing: I don't . {vocalsound}
User Interface: If you're in the market for this ultimate remote , you're not gonna go for just a television remote . If it can't control {disfmarker} if it can't control your your D_V_D_ player and a al if y if you can't get that all-in-one ultimate remote , that just {disfmarker} you can throw all your other remotes away . I'm not gonna buy a d seventy-five Euro remote .
Marketing: That's right . {vocalsound} I I I have a tendency to agree with you . I really do .
Project Manager: So we really can't chase that .
Marketing: That's why I say I quest I q I question the marketability of the product . I really question where we create the demand .
User Interface: So I think what we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We're really looking for something basic .
User Interface: So that's what I'm saying {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The the one thing that that that you said really struck a chord with me here in that we're we're carrying the corporate identity with the product , but we're actually looking for a large profit at the same time where I'd be inclined to go back to upper-level management and say like let's just cut down our profit expected on this product because we are actually branding our company here . We're selling more than just the product . We're trying to get mind-share about uh Real Reaction to to the people who are gonna buy consumer electronics . We want people to eventually say , oh that's that's Real Reaction that's a good m make . It's reliable . And and we're gonna make it {disfmarker} we're gonna win mind-share by uh either being a fantastic product
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: or for it working , it just being good , reasonable-priced , {vocalsound} and solid . So if we can make {disfmarker} if we can put an emphasis here on it not breaking I think that's in itself an extremely {vocalsound} big thing .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . I think that's big .
Marketing: W {vocalsound} okay if you if you drop the cost , now if you make if you make {disfmarker} go to the other side of the cost scale , and you make it less expensive , then all of a sudden now we're going into an a a new market area . So we can say low-cost uh uh um uh good design , beautiful , wa-da-da-da-da-da .
Industrial Designer: Good design .
Project Manager: We only have a few minutes left .
Marketing: But what I'm saying is right now we're middle market .
Project Manager: Is twenty-five Euros a mid-market price for a remote ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah
User Interface: I think so , yeah .
Marketing: for for multi for a multi-function remote , that's a mid-market price . In a discount right now you can buy 'em on sale sometimes for about about uh eighteen , nineteen Euro ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: and that's for the multi-functions , uh D_V_D_ , V_C_R_ , uh catch-alls . And and they have 'em in a little box in the middle , and and this is the consciousness that most people have about replacement remote controls . So to me {vocalsound} , to market this a t only a television remote control we have to change consciousness . We have to have something that will change people's thinking to identify this as advantageous , and I don't know what that is . It's gotta be low-cost or high-cost with with special design features .
Project Manager: Well I'd be inclined to say , if we can make the design better than any comparable remote while reducing the cost , then that's the way we really should play it . If we can take it down to you know fifteen rather than twenty-five and make a low profit-margin on it ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: but we're really doing that to sell the brand . Yep we have five minutes left . Uh rather th uh to to to sell for Real Reactions .
Marketing: Or my d {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And I can communicate this to to the more senior {vocalsound} uh mm people within the company here to to get a reaction . {vocalsound}
User Interface: What about um the idea that I had with the cradle ? How do you feel about that ?
Project Manager: Well how does everybody feel ?
User Interface: Or how does everybody feel ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} I mean I I {vocalsound} well we g we're talking about the other end now .
Project Manager: {gap} I I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: I like it .
User Interface: No , but I {disfmarker} that's the thing I I don't think it's necessarily the other end .
Marketing: I like the idea , but we have t we have to find out {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The other the o the problem with that in my mind I just think off-hand as a as a consumer , would I wanna buy that ? And I think maybe not because I've got a remote and I'll take it to different chairs , I'll take it to different {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: I w I don't wanna go over somewhere and put it down . It {disfmarker} i if it is gonna be somewhere that you put it down then it needs to be at the side of your armchair ,
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: and that implies that there's only one T_V_ user . So it's very good for some people but it's not a like {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well it lasts {disfmarker} it would last for several hours on its own power , but when you're done with it you put it back in the cradle .
Project Manager: But it it takes away the ease of use of the remote to a certain extent .
User Interface: Yeah
Project Manager: You have to l sort of remember .
User Interface: well it {disfmarker} Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: You have to d shift down the side of the couch to find it and put it back and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I d I d I d I think it it {disfmarker} in my mind it doesn't seem like something that oh I'd really want uh because of that fact .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: But I I don't know , that's just my opinion .
Marketing: Well , I think again it's it {disfmarker} we have a cost issue here . You know if we're gonna go in this direction , to me we're going to the other side of the cost range .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Are we gonna make this {disfmarker} selling selling the cost as a high high-tech uh um environmentally sensitive whatever , or are we gonna go to the lower side of the range ? {vocalsound} Again I don't see our market niche in the middle for our product yet .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Marketing: I don't see it yet .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So what do we think maybe we should {disfmarker} Pedro , do you have any opinion on it ?
Industrial Designer: Uh we should keep it simple , mm medium-low cost mar um cost area and uh make it look good .
Marketing: W {vocalsound} a question I have in in a {vocalsound} {disfmarker} 'cause I I I think I agree with you on , we gotta make it a box . The box is gonna sell it I think , the outside , the casing .
Project Manager: Really need to wrap up now .
Marketing: Can can can we have multiple designs ? Have a modern , have a traditional , have a {disfmarker} you know , and so so instead of them all looking the same , people can have maybe four or five different designs they can choose from . I don't know what that creates cost , or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well the the problem with that is we may end up with a whole bunch of inventory of a of a poor design you know . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yep one over another . Yeah , okay , I hear that .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , complicated but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um but what we could do is some kind of {vocalsound} well I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah we we need to , I mean , have a few designs to look at and then come up with something that I think we all agree is , you know , the best fit . I think w what's really important is it has to look good , it has to feel {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it has to feel good in your hand ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: it has to be durable , it has to a and I think it's really important that it doesn't look cheap . I think I think we have to make sure people look at it an and feel like it its like a quality remote . Even though the cost may be low .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: What ab what ab {disfmarker} what about a a remote that's {vocalsound} that {vocalsound} doesn't maybe look like a remote ? Just an idea .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Just just okay 'cause I mean we all know what a remote looks like on the outside . They're selling these things everywhere . Maybe that could be part of our design exclusivity , is we make a remote that doesn't even look like a remote it it opens like a telephone .
User Interface: Or what if it looks like a pen ?
Marketing: Doesn't matter , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I'm just jus I talking about some {disfmarker} something to make this thing unique .
User Interface: A pointer ?
Marketing: It {disfmarker} That's the thing , I'm gonna keep thumping on .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I'll sell whatever you guys design .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I don't have a problem selling a product , that's not the issue . I give you ideas , you guys create the product . Once you have the finished product I'll find a way to sell it . Don't worry about it . I just give you these things now , because these are my thoughts and feelings .
User Interface: So
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: just {vocalsound} to touch on m my point one last time that I had brought up . Um I really {vocalsound} {disfmarker} un unless you guys are die-hard against the fact that um it's possible like it reduces the usability of the remote b and the fact that you can't lose it on your own , I think it still might be a good idea to investigate having like a power cradle .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Yeah .
User Interface: Because I really think i in a certain sense it almost like {disfmarker} for me I would want to have that just , because I know at the end of when I'm done watching T_V_ that when I'm done , oh I better go find the remote and put it back where it belongs . Maybe th th th that's just some people that like that .
Project Manager: I mean there's al there's also remote controls I remember that that worked uh , this hasn't been done in a while I think , but th as a as a watch .
User Interface: A lot of people {disfmarker}
Marketing: No no .
User Interface: As a watch ?
Project Manager: Yeah , there is remote control watches um ,
User Interface: Mm 'kay .
Project Manager: but I think they're a sorta eighties thing , so it might not be easy to market in it {disfmarker} uh but the the technologies came along and it might be cheaper to make now .
Industrial Designer: Yeah they are not simple .
Project Manager: Those things may have been inexpensive for all I know .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: One thing I just thought about when you were saying that , is that the p our target market is gonna be someone who has lost or broken {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: That's what I was saying .
Marketing: We gotta stop ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Gotta cut up .
Marketing: Who's lost or broken their their remote . So {vocalsound} how many remotes do they wanna buy ? Can we p can we sell them a remote that can maybe guarantee they will not need to buy another one ?
User Interface: Exactly .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: And so with with with this kind of system or locator or something , to to think about , how have people been been losing or breaking their remote ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: How does this happen ?
Project Manager: The last remote you'll ever buy .
User Interface: And also presumably they've {disfmarker}
Marketing: And and then and then design the product , maybe some component of the product that can identify this as the last one you'll ever need to buy .
Project Manager: Well if if we're going down that then we can {disfmarker} we don't need to go the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Exactly .
Project Manager: it it strikes me that the locator feature might actually be uh quite expensive to make .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Whereas actually just putting it in a power cradle might not be too expensive at all because that's just done with mobile phones
User Interface: True .
Project Manager: you can just n we we have said we have actually similar products that we can take from and potentially cut costs there .
User Interface: Right . Yeah . The locator'll definitely be more expensive . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um need to look into whether we can do that but uh I think we we have some m mobile phone-based products uh checking quickly our Internet . We really need to finish up here . But uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} uh {disfmarker} we can make it in the shape of a coffee pot . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah we have the {gap} the power-adaptor products . We sell power-adaptor products . So for example there's nothing stopping us using that technology .
Marketing: It's uh just it's that I think it's telling us to stop our meeting .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So we have the c we probably have have on-line in our in our system , we have the ability to create this , we're talking about .
Project Manager: Yeah I think so ,
Marketing: A charging system .
Project Manager: without it being too {disfmarker} In fact we can cut costs through using the manufacturing that's already gonna be in place here .
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: If if we can create this we have probably five or six or seven really strong marketing characteristics .
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: I think one of the things that we can put right on the box is , never buy another battery .
Project Manager: Yep .
User Interface: You know , something like that .
Project Manager: 'Kay . Thanks guys .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: No that's not what I want , I want {disfmarker} Oh look it here .
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Grad E: As usual .
Grad B: Yes . Whew ! I almost forgot {pause} about the meeting . I woke up twenty minutes ago , thinking , what did I forget ?
Grad D: It 's great how the br brain sort of does that .
Grad E: Something 's not right here .
Grad B: Internal alarms .
Grad D: OK . So the news for me is A , my forthcoming travel plans
Grad B: Yes .
Grad D: in two weeks from today ? Yeah ? More or less ? I 'll be off to Sicily and Germany for a couple , three days .
Grad B: Now what are y what are you doing there ? I forgot ?
Grad D: OK , I 'm flying to Sicily basically to drop off Simon there with his grandparents . And then I 'm flying to Germany t to go to a MOKU - Treffen which is the meeting of all the module - responsible people in SmartKom ,
Grad B: Mmm .
Grad D: and , represent ICI and myself I guess there . And um . That 's the mmm actual reason . And then I 'm also going up to EML for a day , and then I 'm going to {vocalsound} meet the very big boss , Wolfgang Walster , in Saarbruecken and the System system integration people in Kaiserslautern and then I 'm flying back via Sicily pick up my son come back here on the fourth of July . And uh .
Grad E: What a great time to be coming back to the
Grad B: God bless America .
Grad E: You 'll see maybe {disfmarker} see the fireworks from your plane coming in .
Grad D: And I 'm sure all the {disfmarker} the people at the airport will be happy to work on that day .
Grad E: Yeah . You 'll get even better service than usual .
Grad B: Wait , aren't you flying on Lufthansa though ?
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Alitalia .
Grad B: Oh . Well then the {disfmarker} you know , it 's not a big deal . Once you get to the United States it 'll be a problem , but
Grad D: Yeah . And um , that 's that bit of news , and the other bit of news is we had {disfmarker} you know , uh , I was visited by my German project manager who A , did like what we did {disfmarker} what we 're doing here , and B , is planning to come here either three weeks in July or three weeks in August , to actually work .
Grad B: On {disfmarker} ?
Grad D: With us .
Grad B: Oh .
Grad D: And we sat around and we talked and he came up {disfmarker} we came up {disfmarker} with a pretty strange idea . And that 's what I 'm gonna lay on you now . And um , maybe it might be ultimately the most interesting thing for Eva because she has been known to complain about the fact that the stuff we do here is not weird enough .
Grad C: OK .
Grad D: So this is so weird it should even make you happy .
Grad C: Uh . {comment} OK .
Grad E: Oh great .
Grad D: Imagine if you will , {vocalsound} that we have a system that does all that understanding that we want it to do based on utterances .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: It should be possible to make that system produce questions . So if you have the knowledge of how to interpret " where is X ? " under given conditions , situational , user , discourse and ontological {vocalsound} conditions , you should also be able to make that same system ask " where is X ? "
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: in a sper certain way , based on certain intentions . So in instead of just being able to observe phenomenon , um , and , guess the intention we might be able just to sort of give it an intention , and make it produce an utterance .
Grad E: Hmm .
Grad B: Well , like in AI they generally do the take in , and then they also do the generation phase , like Nancy 's thing . Or uh , you remember , in the {disfmarker} the hand thing in one - eighty - two , like not only was it able to recognize but it was also to generate based upon situations . You mean that sort of thing ?
Grad D: Absolutely .
Grad B: OK .
Grad D: And once you 've done that what we can do is have the system ask itself . And answer , understand the answer , ask something else , and enter a dialogue with itself . So the {disfmarker} the ba basic {disfmarker} the same idea as having two chess computers play against each other .
Grad E: Except this smacks a little bit more of a schizophrenic computer than AI .
Grad D: Yeah you c if you want , you can have two parallel {vocalsound} machines um , asking each other . What would that give us ? Would A be something completely weird and strange , and B , i if you look at all the factors , we will never observe people let 's say , in wheelchairs under {disfmarker} you know , in {disfmarker} under all conditions ,
Grad E: That 's good .
Grad D: you know , when they say " X " , and there is a ride at the goal , and the parking is good , we can never collect enough data . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not possible .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Right , right .
Grad D: But maybe one could do some learning . If you get the system to speak to itself , you may find n break downs and errors and you may be able to learn . And make it more robust , maybe learn new things . And um , so there 's no {disfmarker} no end of potential things one could get out of it , if that works . And he would like to actually work on that with us .
Grad B: Well then , he probably should be coming back a year {pause} from now .
Grad D: So Yeah , I w See the {disfmarker} the generation bit , making the system generate {disfmarker} generate something , {comment} is {disfmarker} shouldn't be too hard .
Grad B: Well , once the system understands things .
Grad E: Yeah . No problem .
Grad B: I just don't think {disfmarker} I think we 're probably a year away from getting the system to understand things .
Grad D: Yeah . Well , if we can get it to understand one thing , like our " where is " run through we can also , maybe , e make it say , or ask " where is X ? " Or not .
Grad E: Mmm , I don't know . e I 'm sort of {disfmarker} have the impression that getting it to say the right thing in the right circumstances is much more difficult than getting it to understand something given the circumstances and so on , you know , I mean just cuz it 's sort of harder to learn to speak correctly in a foreign language , rather than learning to understand it . Right ? I mean
Grad D:
Grad E: just the fact that we 'll get {disfmarker} The point is that getting it to understand one construction doesn't mean that it will n always know exactly when it 's correct to use that construction . Right ?
Grad D: It 's {disfmarker} it 's uh {disfmarker} Well , I 've {disfmarker} I 've done generation and language production research for fo four {disfmarker} four and a half years . And so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} you 're right , it 's not the same as the understanding . It 's in some ways easier and some ways harder . nuh ?
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad D: But , um , I think it 'd be fun to look at it , or into that question .
Grad E: Nnn , yeah .
Grad D: It 's a pretty strange idea . And so that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} But {disfmarker}
Grad B: The basic idea I guess would be to give {disfmarker} allow the system to have intentions , basically ? Cuz that 's basically what needs to be added to the system for it .
Grad D: Well , look at th eee , I think even {disfmarker} think even {disfmarker} What it {disfmarker} would be the {disfmarker} the prior intention . So let 's uh {disfmarker} uh , let 's say we have this {disfmarker}
Grad B: Well we 'd have to seed that , I mean .
Grad D: No . Let 's {disfmarker} we have to {disfmarker} we have some {disfmarker} some top - down processing , given certain setting . OK , now we change nothing , and just say ask something . Right ?
Grad B:
Grad D: What would it ask ?
Grad B: It wouldn't know what to ask . I mean .
Grad D: It shur
Grad B: Unless it was in a situation . We 'd have to set up a situation where , it didn't know where something was and it wanted to go there .
Grad D: Yeah !
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad B: Which means that we 'd need to set up an intention inside of the system . Right ? Which is basically , " I don't know where something is and I need to go there " .
Grad D: Eh , n
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad D: Ooh , do we really need to do that ? Because ,
Grad B: Well , no I guess not . Excel
Grad D: s It 's {disfmarker} i I know it 's {disfmarker} it 's strange , but look at it {disfmarker} look at our Bayes - net . If we don't have {disfmarker} Let 's assume we don't have any input from the language . Right ? So there 's also nothing we could query the ontology , but we have a certain user setting . If you just ask , what is the likelihood of that person wanting to enter some {disfmarker} something , it 'll give you an answer .
Grad B: Sure .
Grad D: Right ? That 's just how they are . And so , @ @ whatever that is , it 's the generic default intention . That it would find out . Which is , wanting to know where something is , maybe nnn {disfmarker} and wanting {disfmarker} I don't know what it 's gonna be , but there 's gonna be something that
Grad E: Well you 're not gonna {disfmarker} are you gonna get a variety of intentions out of that then ? I mean , you 're just talking about like given this user , what 's the th what is it {disfmarker} what is that user most likely to want to do ?
Grad D: Well you can observe some user and context stuff and ask , what 's the posterior probabilities of all of our decision nodes .
Grad E: And , have it talk about {disfmarker} OK .
Grad D: You could even say , " let 's take all the priors , let 's observe nothing " , and query all the posterior probabilities . It - it 's gonna tell us something . Right ?
Grad B: Well , it will d r assign values to all the nodes . Yes .
Grad D: And {disfmarker} Yes . And come up with posterior probabilities for all the values of the decision nodes . Which , if we have an algorithm that filters out whatever the {disfmarker} the best or the most consistent answer out of that , will give us the intention ex nihilo . And that is exactly what would happen if we ask it to produce an utterance , it would be b based on that extension , ex nihilo , which we don't know what it is , but it 's there . So we wouldn't even have to {disfmarker} t to kick start it by giving it a certain intention or observing anything on the decision node . And whatever that {disfmarker} maybe that would lead to " what is the castle ? " ,
Grad B: I 'm just {disfmarker}
Grad D: or " what is that whatever " .
Grad B: I guess what I 'm afraid of is if we don't , you know , set up a {pause} situation , {comment} we 'll just get a bunch of garbage out , like you know , everything 's exactly thirty percent .
Grad D: No {disfmarker}
Grad C: Mmm .
Grad D: Yeah . So what we actually then need to do is {disfmarker} is write a little script that changes all the settings , you know , go goes through all the permutations , which is {disfmarker} we did a {disfmarker} didn't we calculate that once ?
Grad B: Well that was {disfmarker} that was absurdly low , in the last meeting ,
Grad D: It 's a {disfmarker}
Grad C: Uh ,
Grad B: cuz I went and looked at it cuz I was thinking , that could not be right , and it would {disfmarker} it was on the order of twenty output nodes and something like twenty {disfmarker}
Grad C: And like thirty input nodes
Grad B: thirty input nodes .
Grad C: or some {disfmarker}
Grad B: So to test every output node , uh , would at least {disfmarker} Let 's see , so it would be two to the thirty for every output node ? Which is very th very large .
Grad D: Oh ! That 's n
Grad E: Oh .
Grad D: that 's {disfmarker} that 's nothing for those neural guys . I mean , they train for millions and millions of epochs .
Grad B: Well , I 'm talking about
Grad D: So .
Grad B: Oh , I was gonna take a drink of my water . I 'm talking about billions and billions and billions and a number {disfmarker} two to the thirty is like a Bhaskara said , we had calculated out and Bhaskara believes that it 's larger than the number of particles in the universe . And if i
Grad E: I don't know if that 's right or not . Th - that 's big . That 's just {disfmarker} That 's uh {disfmarker} It 's a billion , right ?
Grad B: Two to the thirty ? Well , two to the thirty is a billion , but if we have to do it two to the twenty times , then that 's a very very large number .
Grad E: Right . Argh . Oh , OK . Yeah . Yeah , that 's big .
Grad B: Cuz you have to query the node , for every a uh , or query the net two to the twenty times .
Grad E: Sure . Alright .
Grad B: Or not two to th excuse me , twenty times .
Grad E: OK . So , is it t comes to twenty billion or something ?
Grad B: Yes . As far as {disfmarker}
Grad E: That 's pretty big , though .
Grad B: That 's @ @ {disfmarker} That 's big . Actually {disfmarker} Oh ! We calculated a different number before . How did we do that ?
Grad C: Hmm .
Grad E: I remember there being some other one floating around . But anyway , uh .
Grad C: I don't really know .
Grad E: Yeah , it 's g Anyway , the point is that given all of these different factors , it 's uh e it 's {disfmarker} it 's still going to be impossible to run through all of the possible situations or whatever .
Grad C: Ooo , it 's just big .
Grad E: But I mean , this 'll get us a bit closer at least , right ? I mean .
Grad B: If it takes us a second to do , for each one , and let 's say it 's twenty billion , {comment} then that 's twenty billion seconds , which is {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad B: Eva , do the math .
Grad C: Can't .
Grad E: Long !
Grad C:
Grad B: Hours and hours and hours and hours . But we can do randomized testing .
Grad E: Tah - dah !
Grad B: Which probabilistically will be good enough .
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Yeah . So , it be it it 's an idea that one could n for {disfmarker} for example run {disfmarker} run past , um , what 's that guy 's name ? You know ? He - he 's usually here . Tsk . J J Jer - Jerj
Grad E: Here in the group ? Jerry Feldman .
Grad D: Oh , yeah . That 's the guy . We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we g
Grad B: Wait , who ?
Grad E: Yeah , i that would the g the bald guy .
Grad B: Oh ! My advisor !
Grad D: And um . so this is just an idea that 's floating around and we 'll see what happens . And um , hmm , what other news do I have ? Well we fixed some more things from the SmartKom system , but that 's not really of general interest , Um , Oh ! Questions , yeah . I 'll ask Eva about the E Bayes and she 's working on that . How is the generation XML thing ?
Grad B: I 'm gonna work on that today and tomorrow .
Grad D: OK . No need to do it today or tomorrow even . Do it next week or {disfmarker}
Grad B: I 'm gonna finish it today , uh hopefully .
Grad D: OK .
Grad B: I wanna do one of those things where I stay here . Cuz uh , if I go home , I can't finish it . I 've tried about five times so far , where I work for a while and then I 'm like , I 'm hungry . So I go home , and then I think {disfmarker}
Grad E: I 'm not going back .
Grad B: Yeah . Either that or I think to myself , I can work at home . And then I try to work at home , but I fail miserably .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad B: Like I ended up at Blakes last night .
Grad E: Non - conducive .
Grad B: No . I almost got into a brawl . But I did not finish the uh , But I 've been looking into it . I th @ @ It 's not like it 's a blank slate . I found everything that I need and stu and uh ,
Grad D: But st
Grad B: At the b uh furthermore , I told Jerry that I was gonna finish it before he got back . So .
Grad D: OK .
Grad E: That 's approaching . He 's coming back when ? Uh next {disfmarker}
Grad B: Well , I think {disfmarker} we think we 'll see him definitely on Tuesday for the next {disfmarker} Or , no , wait . The meetings are on Thursday .
Grad D: Maybe .
Grad B: Maybe .
Grad D: Who knows .
Grad E: OK .
Grad B: Well , we 'll see him next week .
Grad E: Alright .
Grad D: That 's good . Yeah . The paper .
Grad E: Hmm .
Grad B: I was thinking about that .
Grad D: Hmm .
Grad B: I think I will try to work on the SmartKom stuff and I 'll {disfmarker} if I can finish it today , I 'll help you with that tomorrow , if you work on it ? I don't have a problem with us working on it though ? So .
Grad D: OK .
Grad B: And it {disfmarker}
Grad D: So you would say it 's funky cool .
Grad B: I mean we just {disfmarker} I mean it wouldn't hurt to write up a paper , cuz then , I mean , yeah {disfmarker} I was talking with Nancy and Nancy said , you don't know whether you have a paper to {pause} write up until you write it up . So .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad D: Well
Grad B: And since Jerry 's coming back , we can run it by him too . So .
Grad D: Yep . Um , what 's your input ?
Grad E: Well , um , I don't have much experience with uh , conference papers for compu in the computer science realm , and so when I looked at what you had , which was apparently a complete submission , I just sort of said what {disfmarker} just {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I didn't really know what to do with it , like , this is the sort of the basic outline of the system or whatever , or {disfmarker} or " here 's an idea " , right ? That 's what that paper was , " here 's {disfmarker} here 's one possible thing you could do " ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: short , eight pages , and I just don't know what you have in mind for expanding . Like I 'd {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I didn't do is go to the web site of the conference and look at what they 're looking for or whatever .
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Well , it seems to me that um {disfmarker}
Grad B: Wait , is this a computer science conference or is it a {disfmarker}
Grad D: Um , well it 's more {disfmarker} It 's both , right ? It 's {disfmarker} it 's sort of t cognitive , neural , psycho , linguistic , but all for the sake of doing computer science . So it 's sort of cognitive , psycho , neural , plausibly motivated , architectures of natural language processing . So it seems pretty interdisciplinary , and I mean , w w the keynote speaker is Tomasello and blah - blah - blah ,
Grad E: Right . Oh , yeah .
Grad D: so , W the {disfmarker} the question is what could we actually do and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and keep a straight face while doing it .
Grad B: Well , I really can't keep a straight face doing anything .
Grad D: And i My idea is ,
Grad E: Setting that aside .
Grad D: well , you can say we have done a little bit and that 's this , and uh sort of the rest is position paper , " we wanna also do that " . Which is not too good . Might be more interesting to do something like let 's assume um , we 're right , we have as Jerry calls it , a delusion of adequacy , and take a " where is X " sentence ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: and say , " we will just talk about this , and how we cognitively , neurally , psycho - linguistically , construction grammar - ally , motivated , envision uh , understanding that " .
Grad E: Mmm .
Grad D: So we can actually show how we parse it . That should be able to {disfmarker} we should be able to come up with , you know , a sort of a {disfmarker} a parse .
Grad E: Right .
Grad D: It 's on , just {disfmarker} just put it on .
Grad A: I 'm OK .
Grad B: Did Ben harass you ?
Grad A: Yes .
Grad B: Good .
Grad A: Was he supposed to harass me ?
Grad B: Yes .
Grad A: Well , he just told me that you came looking for me .
Grad D: You don
Grad B: Oh .
Grad D:
Grad A: figure this out .
Grad D: You will suffer in hell , you know that .
Grad E: Backwards . There 's a s diagram somewhere which tells you how to put that {disfmarker}
Grad A: I know , I didn't understand that either !
Grad B: No wait . You have to put it on exactly like that ,
Grad D: This is it . Yeah .
Grad B: so put that {disfmarker} those things over your ears like that .
Grad A: OK .
Grad B: See the p how the plastic things ar arch out like that ? There we go .
Grad A: OK . It hurts .
Grad B: It hurts . It hurts real bad .
Grad A: It does ! I 'm sorry I didn't mean to {disfmarker}
Grad E: But that 's what you get for coming late to the meeting .
Grad A: I 'm sorry . I 'm sorry , oh these are all the same . OK ! th this is not very {pause} on target .
Grad B: Is your mike on ?
Grad C: An
Grad A: Shoot .
Grad D: Yeah , it is .
Grad B: OK .
Grad A: Alright , you guys can continue talking about whatever you were talking about before .
Grad E: Um ,
Grad D: We 're talking about this um , alleged paper that we may , just , sort of w
Grad A: Oh ! Which Johno mentioned to me . Uh - huh .
Grad D: Yeah . And I just sort of brought forth the idea that we take a sentence , " Where is the Powder - Tower " ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: and we {disfmarker} we p pretend to parse it , we pretend to understand it , and we write about it .
Grad E: Hmm . About how {vocalsound} all of these things {disfmarker}
Grad A: What 's the part that 's not pretend ? The writing ?
Grad D: OK , then we pretend to write about .
Grad E: The submitting to a major international conference . {comment} {comment} Yeah .
Grad A: Tha - {vocalsound} Which conference is it for ?
Grad D: It 's the whatever , architectures , eh you know , where {disfmarker} There is this conference , it 's the seventh already international conference , on neu neurally , cognitively , motivated , architectures of natural language processing .
Grad A: Oh . Wow . Interesting .
Grad D: And the keynote speakers are Tomasello , MacWhinney ?
Grad A: Whinney . {comment} MacWhinney. Uh - huh .
Grad D: We - MacWhinney , I think .
Grad E:
Grad A: So , interesting , both , like , child language people .
Grad D: Yeah . Yep .
Grad A: OK .
Grad D: So maybe you wanna write something too .
Grad A: Yeah , maybe I wanna go . Um , why are they speaking at it if it {disfmarker}
Grad E: Mmm . {vocalsound} Mmm .
Grad A: is {disfmarker} is it normally like {disfmarker} like , dialogue systems , or , you know , other NLP - ish things ?
Grad D: No no no no no no no no . It 's {disfmarker} it 's like a {disfmarker}
Grad A: Oh , it 's cognitive . OK .
Grad D: Yeah . Yeah . Even neuro .
Grad A: And uh , both learning and like , comprehension , production , that kinda stuff .
Grad D: Psycho . You could look at the web site .
Grad A: OK .
Grad D: I 'll {disfmarker}
Grad A: OK . I don't know about it .
Grad D: And the ad and {disfmarker} and the deadline is the fifteenth of June .
Grad A: Yeah that 's pretty soon .
Grad E: Mmm .
Grad D: Hey . Plenty of time .
Grad E: Why , we 've got over a week !
Grad D: It would be nice to go write two papers actually . Yeah . And one {disfmarker} one from your perspective , and one from our peve per per
Grad A: Mm - hmm . I mean , th that 's the kinda thing that maybe like , um , the general uh con sort of like NTL - ish like , whatever , the previous simulation based pers {comment} maybe you 're talking about the same kind of thing . A general paper about the approach here would probably be appropriate . And good to do at some point anyway .
Grad D: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad A: Um .
Grad D: Well , I {disfmarker} I also think that if we sort of write about what we have done in the past six months , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we could sort of craft a nice little paper that {pause} if it gets rejected , which could happen , doesn't hurt
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: because it 's something we eh {disfmarker}
Grad A: Having it is still a good thing .
Grad D: having it is a good {disfmarker} good thing .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad D: It 's a nice exercise , it 's {disfmarker} I usually enjoy writing papers . It 's not {disfmarker} I don't re regard it as a painful thing .
Grad A: Mm - hmm . It 's fun .
Grad D: And um , we should all do more for our publication lists . And . It just never hurts . And Keith and - or Johno will go , probably .
Grad B: Will I ?
Grad A: When is it and where ?
Grad D: In case of {disfmarker}
Grad E: Hmm !
Grad D: It 's on the twenty second of September , in Saarbruecken Germany .
Grad A: Ah , it 's in Germany . Ah , OK . I s I see . Tomasello 's already in Germany anyway , so makes sense . OK .
Grad E: Just {disfmarker}
Grad A: Um . OK . So , is the {disfmarker} What {disfmarker} Are you just talking about you know , the details of how to do it , or whether to do it , or what it would be ?
Grad E: What would one possibly put in such a paper ?
Grad D: What to write about .
Grad A: Or what to write about ?
Grad D: What is our {disfmarker} what 's our take home message . What {disfmarker} what do we actually {disfmarker} Because I mean , it {disfmarker} I don't like papers where you just talk about what you plan to do . I mean , it 's obvious that we can't do any kind of evaluation , and have no {disfmarker} you know , we can't write an ACL type paper where we say , " OK , we 've done this
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: and now we 're whatever percentage better than everybody else " . You know .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: It 's far too early for that . But uh , we {disfmarker} we can tell them what we think . I mean that 's {disfmarker} never hurts to try . And um , maybe even {disfmarker} That 's maybe the time to introduce the {disfmarker} the new formalism that you guys have cooked up .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: But that {disfmarker}
Grad E: Are in the process of {disfmarker}
Grad A: How many pages ?
Grad B: don't they need to finish the formalism ?
Grad D: It 's just like four pages .
Grad A: Four pages ?
Grad D: I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's not even a h
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad A: OK , so it 's a little thing .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Oh .
Grad B: Well , you said it was four thousand lines ?
Grad E: Oh .
Grad B: Is that what you s
Grad A: OK . Four pages is , like , really not very much space .
Grad D: I don't know w Did you look at it ? Yeah , it depends on the format .
Grad E: Oh my gosh . Oh , I thought you were {disfmarker} I thought we were talking about something which was much more like ten or something .
Grad D: No that 's {disfmarker} I mean that 's actually a problem . It 's difficu it 's more difficult to write on four pages than on eight .
Grad A: It 's {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad A: And it 's also difficult to {disfmarker} even if you had a lot of substance , it 's hard to demonstrate that in four pages , basically .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad A: Um .
Grad E: That would be hard .
Grad A: I mean it 's still {disfmarker} it 's still {disfmarker}
Grad D: Well I uh maybe it 's just four thousand lines . I do I don't {disfmarker} They don't want any {disfmarker} They don't have a TeX f style @ @ guide .
Grad A: Uh - huh , uh - huh .
Grad D: They just want ASCII . Pure ASCII lines ,
Grad A: OK .
Grad D: whatever . Why , for whatever reason ,
Grad A: Not including figures and such ?
Grad D: I don't know . I don't know . Very unspecific unfortunately .
Grad A: OK . Well ,
Grad D: We 'll just uh {disfmarker}
Grad B: I would say that 's closer to six pages actually . Four thousand lines of ASCII ?
Grad D: OK then . It 's {disfmarker}
Grad E: Four thousand lines . I mean . Isn't a isn't it about fifty s fifty five , sixty lines to a page ?
Grad D: I d don't quote me on this . This is numbers I {disfmarker} I have from looking o
Grad B: How many characters are on a line ?
Grad D: OK .
Grad A: ASCII ?
Grad D: Let 's {disfmarker} let 's {disfmarker} wh wh what should we {disfmarker} should {disfmarker} should we uh , um , discuss this over tea and all of us look at the web ? Oh , I can't . I 'm wizarding today .
Grad A: OK , look at the web page ?
Grad D: Um .
Grad A: Wha - w
Grad D: Look at the web page and let 's talk about it maybe tomorrow afternoon ?
Grad A: More cues for us to find it are like , neural cons
Grad D: Johno will send you a link .
Grad A: Oh , you have a link . OK . OK .
Grad B: I got an email .
Grad A: OK .
Grad B: By the way , Keith is comfortable with us calling him " cool Keith " .
Grad A: Oh . Cool . Keith .
Grad E: He {disfmarker} he decided {vocalsound} I 'm chilling in the five - one - O .
Grad A: Cool , " cool Keith " .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad A: Excellent .
Grad D: OK .
Grad A: That 's a very cool T - shirt .
Grad E: Thank you .
Grad D: And I 'm also flying {disfmarker}
Grad E: I got this from the two one two .
Grad A: New York ? Excellent .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad A: Sorry . Yes ?
Grad D: I 'm flying to Sicily next {disfmarker} in a w two weeks from now ,
Grad A: Oh , lucky you .
Grad D: w and a week of business in Germany . I should mention that for you . And otherwise you haven't missed much , except for a really weird idea , but you 'll hear about that soon enough .
Grad A: The idea that you and I already know about ? That you already told me ? Not that {disfmarker} OK .
Grad D: No , no , no . Yeah , that is something for the rest of the gang to {disfmarker} to g
Grad E: The thing with the goats and the helicopters ?
Grad D: Change the watchband . It 's time to walk the sheep .
Grad C: like
Grad A: OK .
Grad D: Um . Did you catch that allusion ? It 's time to walk the sheep ?
Grad E: No .
Grad D: It 's a a uh presumably one of the Watergate codes they uh {disfmarker}
Grad E: Oh .
Grad D: Anyways , th um , um , don't make any plans for spring break next year . That 's {disfmarker}
Grad E: Oh , shoot .
Grad D: That 's the other thing . We 're gonna do an int EDU internal workshop in Sicily .
Grad A: That 's what {disfmarker} That 's what he says .
Grad D: I 've already got the funding .
Grad A: I kn That 's great !
Grad D: So , I mean .
Grad A: Does that mean {disfmarker} Does that mean you 'll get {disfmarker} you 'll fly us there ?
Grad E: We 'll see .
Grad D: No , that 's {disfmarker} Yeah , that 's what it means .
Grad A: Hhh ! OK , cool . Uh - a a
Grad B: And he 'll put us up , too .
Grad E: Huh .
Grad A: I know {disfmarker} I know about that part . I know about the {disfmarker} the almond trees and stuff . Not joking .
Grad D: OK .
Grad A: Name a vegetable , OK . {vocalsound} Oh , um , kiwi ?
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad D: Mmm , too easy .
Grad A: Coconut .
Grad D: Ki
Grad A: Pineapple . See ? Mango ? OK . OK . Too easy ?
Grad D: Too easy . Yeah , mangos go everywhere .
Grad A: Really ?
Grad D: So do kiwi .
Grad A: Oh . OK , but I was trying to find something that he didn't grow on his farm .
Grad D: But coconut anana pineapple , that 's {disfmarker} that 's tricky , yeah .
Grad A: Sorry . Anyway . Cantaloupe .
Grad E: So , but we have to decide what , like , sort of the general idea of {disfmarker}
Grad B: Potatoes . So . Sorry !
Grad E: Um , I mean , we 're gonna have an example case um , right ? I m the {disfmarker} the point is to {disfmarker} like this " where is " case , or something .
Grad D: Yeah , maybe you have {disfmarker} It would be kind of {disfmarker} The paper ha would have , in my vision , a nice flow if we could say , well here is th the {disfmarker} th here is parsing if you wanna do it c right , here is understanding if you wanna do it right , and you know {disfmarker} without going into technical {disfmarker}
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: But then in the end we 're not doing like those things right yet , right ? Would that be clear in the paper or not ?
Grad D: That would be clear , we would {disfmarker}
Grad A: OK .
Grad D: I {disfmarker} I mailed around a little paper that I have {disfmarker}
Grad A: It would be like , this is the idea . Oh , I didn't get that ,
Grad D: w we could sort of say , this is {disfmarker}
Grad A: did I ? Oops . Did I ?
Grad D: No ,
Grad A: Oops . {comment} Sorry .
Grad B: No , y I don't think you got it .
Grad D: See this , if you if you 're not around , and don't partake in the discussions , and you don't get any email ,
Grad A: I 'm sorry . I 'm sorry , I 'm sorry . Sorry .
Grad D: and
Grad A: OK , go on . So parsing done right {vocalsound} is like chicken done right .
Grad D: Su So we could {disfmarker} we could say this is what {disfmarker} what 's sort of state of the art today . Nuh ?
Grad A: OK .
Grad D: And say , this is bad . Nuh ?
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad D: And then we can say , uh well what we do is this .
Grad A: OK .
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad A: Parsing done right , interpretation done right , example .
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Yeah . And
Grad A: And how much to get into the cognitive neural part ?
Grad B: That 's the only {disfmarker} That 's the question mark .
Grad D: We
Grad B: Don't you need to reduce it if it 's a {disfmarker} or reduce it , if it 's a cognitive neuro {disfmarker}
Grad A: Well , you don't have t I mean the conference may be cognitive neural , doesn't mean that every paper has to be both . Like , NLP cognitive neural .
Grad D: Yeah , and you can {disfmarker} you can just point to the {disfmarker} to the literature ,
Grad E: Mmm .
Grad D: you can say that construction - based You know {disfmarker}
Grad A: So i so this paper wouldn't particularly deal with that side although it could reference the NTL - ish sort of , like , um , approach .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad A: The fact that the methods here are all compatible with or designed to be compatible with whatever , neurological {disfmarker} neuro neuro - biol su stuff .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Yeah , I guess four pages you could {disfmarker} I mean you could definitely {disfmarker} it 's definitely possible to do it . It 's just {disfmarker} It 'd just be small . Like introducing the formalism might be not really possible in detail , but you can use an example of it .
Grad E: Well , l looking at {disfmarker} yeah , looking at that paper that {disfmarker} that you had , I mean you know , like , you didn't really explain in detail what was going on in the XML cases or whatever you just sorta said well , you know , here 's the general idea , some stuff gets put in there . You know , hopefully you can {disfmarker} you can say something like constituents tells you what the construction is made out of , you know , without going into this intense detail .
Grad A: Yeah , yeah . So it be like using the formalism rather than you know , introducing it per se .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad A: So .
Grad E: Give them the one paragraph whirlwind tour of w w what this is for ,
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad E: and {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: And people will sort of figure out or ask about the bits that are implicit .
Grad D: Yeah . So this will be sort of documenting what we think , and documenting what we have in terms of the Bayes - net stuff .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: And since there 's never a bad idea to document things , no ?
Grad A: That 's th that 's definitely a good idea .
Grad D: That would be my , uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} we should sketch out the details maybe tomorrow afternoon - ish , if everyone is around . I don't know . You probably wouldn't be part of it .
Grad E: I think so .
Grad D: Maybe you want ? Think about it . Um , You may {disfmarker} may ruin your career forever , if you appear .
Grad B: Yeah , you might get blacklisted .
Grad D: And um , the uh , other thing , yeah we actually {disfmarker} Have we made any progress on what we decided , uh , last week ? I 'm sure you read the transcript of last week 's meeting in red so sh so you 're up to dated {disfmarker} caught up .
Grad A: No . Sorry .
Grad D: We decided t that we 're gonna take a " where is something " question , and pretend we have parsed it , and see what we could possibly hope to observe on the discourse side .
Grad B: Remember I came in and I started asking you about how we were sor going to sort out the uh , decision nodes ?
Grad A: Yes ! What 'd you say ?
Grad B: I remember you talking to me , just not what you said .
Grad A: I do remember you talking to me . Um , a few more bits .
Grad B: Well , there was like we needed to {disfmarker} or uh , in my opinion we need to design a Bayes {disfmarker} another sub - Bayes - net {disfmarker} You know , it was whether {disfmarker} it was whether we would have a Bayes - net on the output and on the input ,
Grad A: Oh .
Grad B: or whether the construction was gonna be in the Bayes - net ,
Grad A: Oh , yeah . OK .
Grad B: a and outside of it ,
Grad A: OK .
Grad B: and {disfmarker}
Grad A: So that was {disfmarker} was that the question ? Was that what {disfmarker}
Grad B: Well that was related to what we were talking about .
Grad D: Should I introduce it as SUDO - square ?
Grad B: Yeah sure .
Grad D: We have to put this in the paper . If we write it . This is {disfmarker} this is my only constraint . The {disfmarker} th So . The SUDO - square {nonvocalsound} is , {vocalsound} " Situation " , " User " , " Discourse " , right ? " Ontology " .
Grad E: Oh I saw the diagram in the office ,
Grad A: Oh my god , that 's amazing !
Grad D: Mmm . Yeah . Whatever .
Grad A: No way .
Grad E: Way !
Grad D: Is it ?
Grad A: Someone 's gonna start making Phil Collins jokes .
Grad D: Yeah . Hmm ?
Grad A: Sorry .
Grad B: What ?
Grad E: Oh , god , I hope not .
Grad A: You guys are too young .
Grad E: You know like " Sussudio " ,
Grad A: Yeah , come on .
Grad E: that horrible , horrible song that should never have been created .
Grad B: Oh , oh , oh , oh .
Grad A: I know , that was horrible . Sussudio .
Grad B: I 've blocked every aspect of Phil Collins out of my mind .
Grad C: What ?
Grad A: I 'm sorry , I haven't . Not on purpose .
Grad E: in here
Grad D: Oh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well , also he 's talking about suicide , and that 's {disfmarker} that 's not a notion I wanna have evoked .
Grad A: No , he 's not . Really ?
Grad D: He is .
Grad A: Oops . {comment} I didn't really listen to it ,
Grad D: The {disfmarker}
Grad A: I was too young .
Grad E: Hmm .
Grad A: Anyway .
Grad E: It sounds too rocking for that .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad E: Anyway . So , what 's going on here ? So what are {disfmarker} what {disfmarker}
Grad D: So ,
Grad E: Was wollte der Kuenstler uns damit sagen ?
Grad A: Stop excluding me .
Grad D: OK , so we have tons of little things here ,
Grad A: I can't believe that that 's never been thought of before .
Grad D: and we 've
Grad B: Wait , what are the dots ? I don't remember what the dots were .
Grad E: Those are little bugs .
Grad A: Cool Keith .
Grad D: OK .
Grad A:
Grad D: You know , these are our , whatever , belief - net decision nodes , and they all contribute to these {pause} {nonvocalsound} things down here .
Grad B: Oh , oh .
Grad A: Wait , wait , what 's the middle thing ?
Grad D: That 's EDU .
Grad E: That 's a c
Grad D: e e Our e e e
Grad A: But wh I mean {disfmarker}
Grad E: That 's {disfmarker}
Grad D: You . We . Us .
Grad A: But what is it ?
Grad D: Well , in the moment it 's a Bayes - net . And it has sort of fifty not - yet - specified interfaces . OK . Eh {pause} I have taken care that we actually can build little interfaces , {nonvocalsound} to other modules that will tell us whether the user likes these things and , n the {disfmarker} or these things , and he {disfmarker} whether he 's in a wheelchair or not ,
Grad A: OK . Is that supposed to be the international sign for interface ?
Grad D: I think so , yeah .
Grad A: Mmm . OK .
Grad B: I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd never seen it before either .
Grad A: OK . Just t Cool .
Grad D: Mmm . So .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad E: Cuz things fit onto that , see ?
Grad A: Cool .
Grad E: In a vaguely obscene fashion .
Grad D: No , this is a RME core by agent design , I don't know .
Grad A: That 's so great .
Grad D: There 's maybe a different
Grad E: So wait , what a what are these letters again , Situr - {comment} Situation , User , Discourse and
Grad D: Situation , user , d ontology .
Grad A: User ?
Grad E: Ontology .
Grad A: What about the utterance ?
Grad C: Discourse .
Grad D: That 's here .
Grad E: It 's {disfmarker}
Grad A: Oh , discourse . So that 's not like context , OK .
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad E: Discourse is all things linguistic , yeah .
Grad D: So this {disfmarker} this includes the {disfmarker} the current utterance plus all the previous utterances .
Grad A: Interesting , uh - huh . User .
Grad D: And for example w i s I Irena Gurevich is going to be here eh , end of July .
Grad A: User .
Grad D: She 's a new linguist working for EML . And what she would like to do for example is great for us . She would like to take the ent ontolog
Grad C: Ouch .
Grad D: So , we have discussed in terms of the EVA {disfmarker}
Grad A: Grateful for us ?
Grad D: uh {disfmarker}
Grad A: Did you just say grateful for us ? OK , sorry . Anyway .
Grad D: Think of {disfmarker} back at the EVA vector , and Johno coming up with the idea that if the person discussed the {disfmarker} discussed the admission fee , in {disfmarker} eh previously , that might be a good indication that , " how do I get to the castle ? " , actually he wants to enter .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Or , you know , " how do I get to X ? " discussing the admission fee in the previous utterance , is a good indication .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad A:
Grad D: So we don't want a hard code , a set of lexemes , or things , that person 's you know , sort of filter , or uh search the discourse history .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: So what would be kind of cool is that if we encounter concepts that are castle , tower , bank , hotel , we run it through the ontology , and the ontology tells us it has um , admission , opening times , it has admission fees , it has this , it has that , and then we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we make a thesaurus lexicon , look up , and then search dynamically through the uh , discourse history for {pause} occurrences of these things in a given window of utterances .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: And that might , you know , give us additional input to belief A versus B . Or E versus A .
Grad A: So it 's not just a particular word 's {disfmarker} OK , so the {disfmarker} you 're looking for a few keys that you know are cues to {disfmarker} sorry , a few specific cues to some intention .
Grad B: You can dynamically look up keys , yeah .
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad A: OK .
Grad E: Uh , so , wait {disfmarker} so um , since this {disfmarker} since this sort of technical stuff is going over my head ,
Grad B: And then grep , basically .
Grad E: the {disfmarker} the point is that you uh {disfmarker} that when someone 's talking about a castle , you know that it 's the sort of thing that people are likely to wanna go into ? Or , is it the fact that if there 's an admission fee , then one of the things we know about admission fees is that you pay them in order to go in ? And then the idea of entering is active in the discourse or something ? And then
Grad D: Well
Grad E: blah - blah - blah ?
Grad D: the {disfmarker} the idea is even more general .
Grad E: I mean .
Grad D: The idea is to say , we encounter a certain entity in a {disfmarker} in a in a utterance . So le let 's look up everything we {disfmarker} the ontology gives us about that entity , what stuff it does , what roles it has , what parts , whatever it has . Functions . And , then we look in the discourse , whether any of that , or any surface structure corresponding to these roles , functions aaa {comment} has ever occurred .
Grad E: Oh , OK .
Grad D: And then , the discourse history can t tell us , " yeah " , or " no " .
Grad E: OK .
Grad D: And then it 's up for us to decide what to do with it . t So i
Grad E: OK . So {disfmarker} No , go ahead .
Grad D: So , we may think that if you say um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} " where is the theater " , um , whether or not he has talked about tickets before , then we {disfmarker} he 's probably wanna go there to see something .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Or " where is the opera in Par - Paris ? ,
Grad E: OK .
Grad D: yeah ? Lots of people go to the opera to take pictures of it and to look at it ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm . OK .
Grad D: and lots of people go to attend a performance .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: And , the discourse can maybe tell us w what 's more likely if we know what to look for in previous statements . And so we can hard code " for opera , look for tickets , look for this , look for that ,
Grad E: OK . OK .
Grad D: or look for Mozart , look for thi " but the smarter way is to go via the ontology and dynamically , then look up u stuff .
Grad E: OK . But you 're still doing look up so that when the person {disfmarker} So the point is that when the person says , " where is it ? " then you sort of say , let 's go back and look at other things and then decide , rather than the other possibility which is that {pause} all through discourse as they talk about different things {disfmarker} You know like w prior to the " where is it " question they say , you know , " how much does it cost to get in , you know , to {disfmarker} to see a movie around here " , um , {vocalsound} " where is the closest theater " {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the point is that by mentioning admission fees , that just sort of stays active now .
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad E: You know . That becomes part of like , their sort of current ongoing active conceptual structure .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: And then , um , over in your Bayes - net or whatever , when {disfmarker} when the person says " where is it " , you 've already got , you know since they were talking about admission , and that evokes the idea of entering , um , then when they go and ask " where is it " , then you 're Enter node is already active
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: because that 's what the person is thinking about .
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad E: I mean that 's the sort of cognitive linguistic - y way ,
Grad D: Yeah , e ultimately that 's also what we wanna get at .
Grad E: and probably not practical .
Grad D: I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's the correct way . So , of course we have to keep memory of what was the last intention , and how does it fit to this , and what does it tell us , in terms of {disfmarker} of the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} what we 're examining .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Mmm , yeah .
Grad D: And furthermore , I mean we can idealize that , you know , people don't change topics ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: but they do . But , even th for that , there is a student of ours who 's doing a dialogue act um , recognition module .
Grad E: Right . Mm - hmm .
Grad D: So , maybe , we 're even in a position where we can take your approach , which is of course much better , as to say how {disfmarker} how do these pieces {disfmarker}
Grad E: Mmm . And much harder to r program .
Grad D: Hmm ?
Grad E: And much harder to p to program .
Grad D: Yeah . How {disfmarker} how do these pieces fit together ? Uh - huh . And um . But , OK , nevertheless . So these are issues but we {disfmarker} what we actually decided last week , is to , and this is , again , for your benefit {disfmarker} is to um , pretend we have observed and parsed an utterance such as " where is the Powder - Tower " , or " where is the zoo " , and specify um , what {disfmarker} what we think the {disfmarker} the output uh , observe , out {disfmarker} i input nodes for our Bayes - nets for the sub sub - D , for the discourse bit , should be . So that {disfmarker} And I will {disfmarker} I will then {comment} {vocalsound} come up with the ontology side uh , bits and pieces , so that we can say , OK we {disfmarker} we always just look at this utterance . That 's the only utterance we can do , it 's hard coded , like Srini , sort of hand parsed , hand crafted , but this is what we hope to be able to observe in general from utterances , and from ontologies , and then we can sort of fiddle with these things to see what it actually produces , in terms of output .
Grad E: Uh
Grad D: So we need to find out what the " where is X " construction will give us in terms of semantics and {vocalsound} Simspec type things .
Grad A: Just {disfmarker} OK . Just " where is X " ?
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Or any variants of that .
Grad D: Yeah . No ! Um , look at it this way , i Yeah . What did we decide . We decided sort of the {disfmarker} the prototypical " where is X " , where you know , we don't really know , does he wanna go there , or just wanna know where it is .
Grad E: Well we were
Grad D: So the difference of " where is the railway station " , versus where {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} " where is Greenland " . Nuh ?
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: Uh s I was just dancing , sorry .
Grad D: We 're not videotaping any of this . So .
Grad B: Uh {disfmarker} ah {disfmarker}
Grad E: So , um , we 're supposed to {disfmarker} I mean we 're talking about sort of anything that has the semantics of request for location , right ? actually ? Or , I mean , anyway , the node in the uh {disfmarker} the ultimate , uh , in {disfmarker} in the Bayes - net thing when you 're done , the {disfmarker} the node that we 're talking about um , is one that says " request for location , true " , or something like that , right ? Um , and {disfmarker} and exactly how that gets activated , you know , like whether we want the sentence " how do I get there ? " to activate that node or not , you know , that 's {disfmarker} that 's sort of the issue that sort of the linguistic - y side has to deal with , right ?
Grad D: Yeah , but it {disfmarker} Yea - Nnn Well actually more {disfmarker} m more the other way around . We wanted something that represents uncertainty uh we in terms of going there or just wanting to know where it is , for example . Some generic information .
Grad E: OK .
Grad D: And so this is prototypically @ @ found in the " where is something " question , surface structure ,
Grad E: OK .
Grad B: We
Grad D: which can be p you know , should be maps to something that activates both . I mean the idea is to {disfmarker}
Grad B: I don't {disfmarker}
Grad E: Alright , OK .
Grad B: Hhh . I guess . I don't {disfmarker}
Grad D: let 's have it fit nicely with the paper .
Grad B: I don't see unde how we would be able to distinguish between the two intentions just from the g utterance , though .
Grad D: The {disfmarker}
Grad B: I mean , uh bef or , before we don't {disfmarker} before we cranked it through the Bayes - net . I mean .
Grad D: Yeah , we {disfmarker} we wouldn't . That 's exactly what we want .
Grad B: We would ?
Grad D: We want to get {disfmarker} No . We wouldn't .
Grad B: OK , but then so basically it 's just a {disfmarker} for every construction we have a node in the net , right ? And we turn on that node .
Grad D: Yeah . What {disfmarker} what is this gonna {disfmarker}
Grad E: Oy .
Grad D: Exactly . What is the uh {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}
Grad B: And then given that we know that {pause} the construction {pause} has these two things , we can set up probabilities {disfmarker} we can s basically define all the tables for ev for those {disfmarker}
Grad D: Yeah , it should be {disfmarker} So we have um , i let 's assume we {disfmarker} we call something like a loc - X node and a path - X node . And what we actually get if we just look at the discourse , " where is X " should activate or should {disfmarker}
Grad E: Mmm .
Grad D: Hmm . Should be both , whereas maybe " where is X located " , we find from the data , is always just asked when the person wants to know where it is , and " how do I get to " is always asked when the person just wants to know how to get there . Right ? So we want to sort of come up with what gets uh , input , and how inter in case of a " where is " question . So what {disfmarker} what would the outcome of {disfmarker} of your parser look like ? And , what other discourse information from the discourse history could we hope to get , squeeze out of that utterance ? So define the {disfmarker} the input into the Bayes - net {vocalsound} based on what the utterance , " where is X " , gives us . So definitely have an Entity node here which is activated via the ontology ,
Grad A: s
Grad D: so " where is X " produces something that is s stands for X , whether it 's castle , bank , restroom , toilet , whatever . And then the ontology will tell us {disfmarker}
Grad A: That it has a location or something like that ? {disfmarker} or th the ontology will tell us where actually it is located ?
Grad D: No . Not at all .
Grad A: OK .
Grad D: Where it is located , we have , a user proximity node here somewhere ,
Grad A: OK . OK .
Grad D: e which tells us how far the user {disfmarker} how far away the user is in respect to that uh entity .
Grad A: OK . So you 're talking about , for instance , the construction obviously involves this entity or refers {disfmarker} refers to this entity ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: and from the construction also you know that it is a location {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} or a thing {disfmarker} thing that can be located . Right ? Ontology says this thing has a location slot . Sh - and that 's the thing that is being {disfmarker} that is the content of the question that 's being queried by one interpretation of " where is X " . And another one is , um , path from current {disfmarker} user current location to {comment} that location .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: So . So is the question {disfmarker} I mean it 's just that I 'm not sure what the {disfmarker} Is the question , for this particular construction how we specify that that 's the information it provides ? Or {disfmarker} or asked for ? b Both sides , right ?
Grad D: Yeah , you don't need to even do that . It 's just sort of what {vocalsound} what would be @ @ {comment} observed in uh {disfmarker} in that case .
Grad A: Observed when you heard the speaker say " where is X " , or when {disfmarker} when that 's been parsed ?
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: So these little circles you have by the D ? Is that {disfmarker} ? OK . OK .
Grad D: That 's exactly what we 're looking for .
Grad B: I d I just {disfmarker} I don't like having {disfmarker} characterizing the constructions with location and path , or li characterizing them like that . Cuz you don't {disfmarker} It seems like in the general case you wouldn't know how {disfmarker} how to characterize them .
Grad D: You wouldn't .
Grad B: I mean {disfmarker} or , for when . There could be an interpretation that we don't have a node for in the {disfmarker} I mean it just seems like @ @ has to have uh {disfmarker} a node for the construction and then let the chips fall where they may . Versus uh , saying , this construction either can mean location or path . And , in this cas and since {disfmarker} since it can mean either of those things , it would light both of those up .
Grad D: It 's the same .
Grad B: Thoughts ? Questions ?
Grad E: I 'm thinking about it .
Grad D: It will be the same .
Grad E: Um {disfmarker}
Grad D: So I think r in here we have " I 'll go there " , right ?
Grad B: Answers ?
Grad D: And we have our Info - on . So in my c my case , this would sort of make this {pause} happy , and this would make the Go - there happy . What you 're saying is we have a Where - X question , Where - X node , that makes both happy . Right ? That 's what you 're proposing , which is , in my mind just as fine . So w if we have a construction {pause} node , " where is X " , it 's gonna both get the po posterior probability that {disfmarker} it 's Info - on up ,
Grad B: Mmm , yeah .
Grad D: Info - on is True - up , and that Go - there is True - up , as well . Which would be exactly analogous to what I 'm proposing is , this makes {disfmarker} uh makes something here true , and this makes something {disfmarker} also something here true , and this makes this True - up , and this makes this True - up as well .
Grad E: I kinda like it better without that extra level of indirection too . You know with {disfmarker} with this points to this points to that , and so on because {vocalsound} I don't know , it {disfmarker}
Grad A: Is - uh ,
Grad D: Yeah , because we get {disfmarker} we get tons of constructions I think . Because , you know , mmm people have many ways of asking for the same thing ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad B: Yeah , sure .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad D: and {disfmarker}
Grad A: So un
Grad B: I change I changed my mind actually .
Grad A: So I agree with that .
Grad E: OK .
Grad A: I have a different kinda question , might be related , which is , OK so implicitly everything in EDU , we 're always inferring the speaker intent , right ? Like , what they want either , the information that they want , or {disfmarker} It 's always information that they want probably , of some kind . Right ? Or I {disfmarker} I don't know , or what 's something that they {disfmarker}
Grad D: The system doesn't massage you , no . No .
Grad A: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} OK . So , um , let 's see . So I don't know if the {disfmarker} I mean i if th just there 's more s here that 's not shown that you {disfmarker} it 's already like part of the system whatever , but , " where is X " , like , the fact that it is , you know , a speech - act , whatever , it is a question . It 's a question that , um , queries on some particular thing X , and X is that location . There 's , like , a lot of structure in representing that .
Grad D: Yep . Yeah .
Grad A: So that seems different from just having the node " location - X " and that goes into EDU , right ?
Grad D: Yeah . {vocalsound} Precisely . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker}
Grad A: So tha is that what you 're t talking about ?
Grad D: So , w Exactly . We have su we have specified two .
Grad A: wh what kinds of structure we want .
Grad D: OK , the next one would be here , just for mood .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: The next one would be what we can squeeze out of the uh I don't know , maybe we wanna observe the uh , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh the length of {disfmarker} of the words used , and , or the prosody
Grad A: Mmm .
Grad D: and g a and t make conclusions about the user 's intelligence .
Grad A: OK . So in some ways {disfmarker}
Grad D: I don't know ,
Grad A: um , so in some ways in the other sort of parallel set of mo more linguistic meetings we 've been talking about possible semantics of some construction .
Grad D: yeah .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Right ? Where it was the simulation that 's , according to it {disfmarker} you know , that {disfmarker} that corresponds to it , and as well the {disfmarker} as discourse , whatever , conte infor in discourse information ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: such as the mood , and , you know , other stuff . So , are we looking for a sort of abbreviation of that , that 's tailored to this problem ? Cuz that {disfmarker} that has , you know , basically , you know , s it 's in progress still it 's in development still , but it definitely has various feature slots , attributes , um , bindings between things {disfmarker}
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Yeah . U that 's exactly r um , why I 'm proposing {disfmarker} It 's too early to have {disfmarker} to think of them {disfmarker} of all of these discourse things that one could possibly observe ,
Grad A: Uh - huh . Mm - hmm .
Grad D: so let 's just assume
Grad A: For the subset of {disfmarker}
Grad D: human beings are not allowed to ask anything but " where is X " .
Grad A: OK .
Grad D: This is the only utterance in the world . What could we observe from that ?
Grad A: OK . That exactly " where is X " ,
Grad D: In ter
Grad A: not the {disfmarker} the choices of " where is X " or " how do I get to X " . Just " where is X " .
Grad D: Just {disfmarker} just " where is X " .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad A: OK .
Grad D: And , but you know , do it {disfmarker} do it in such a way that we know that people can also say , " is the town hall in front of the bank " , so that we need something like a w WH focus . Nuh ? Should be {disfmarker} should be there , that , you know , this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} whatever we get from the {disfmarker}
Grad A: Wait , so do , or do not take other kinds of constructions into account ?
Grad D: Well , if you {disfmarker} if you can , oh definitely do ,
Grad A: OK . Where possible . OK .
Grad D: where possible . Right ? If i if {disfmarker} if it 's not at all triggered by our thing , then it 's irrelevant ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: and it doesn't hurt to leave it out for the moment . Um , but {disfmarker}
Grad A: OK . Um , it seems like for instance , " where is X " , the fact that it might mean um , " tell me how to get to X " , like {disfmarker} Do y So , would you wanna say that those two are both , like {disfmarker} Those are the two interpretations , right ? the {disfmarker} the ones that are location or path . So , you could say that the s construction is a question asking about this location , and then you can additionally infer , if they 're asking about the location , it 's because they wanna go to that place , in which case , the {disfmarker} you 're jumping a step {disfmarker} step and saying , " oh , I know where it is
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad A: but I also know how to get {disfmarker} they wanna seem {disfmarker} they seem to wanna get there so I 'm gonna tell them " . So there 's like structure
Grad E: Right , th this {disfmarker} it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not that this is sort of like semantically ambiguous between these two .
Grad A: i do you kn sort of uh , that {disfmarker}
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: It 's really about this but why would you care about this ? Well , it 's because you also want to know this , or something like that right ?
Grad A: So it 's like you infer the speaker intent ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: and then infer a plan , a larger plan from that , for which you have the additional information ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: you 're just being extra helpful .
Grad D: Yep .
Grad A: Um .
Grad D: Think {disfmarker} Uh , well this is just a mental exercise .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad D: If you think about , focus on this question , how would you design {pause} that ?
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Is it {disfmarker} do you feel confident about saying this is part of the language already to {disfmarker} to detect those plans , and why would anyone care about location , if not , you know and so forth .
Grad E: Mmm .
Grad D: Or do you actually , I mean this is perfectly legitimate , and I {disfmarker} I would not have any problems with erasing this and say , that 's all we can activate , based on the utterance out of context .
Grad A: Mm - hmm . And just by an additional link {disfmarker} Oh .
Grad D: What ?
Grad A: Right ,
Grad E: Right .
Grad A: like ,
Grad D: And then the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the miracle that we get out the intention , Go - there , happens , based on what we know about that entity , about the user , about his various beliefs , goals , desires , blah - blah - blah .
Grad A: with context and enough user information , yeah .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad D: Absolutely fine . But this is the sort of thing , I {disfmarker} I propose that we think about ,
Grad A: OK .
Grad D: so that we actually end up with um , um , nodes for the discourse and ontology so that we can put them into our Bayes - net , never change them , so we {disfmarker} all there is is " where is X " , and , Eva can play around with the observed things , and we can run our better JavaBayes , and have it produce some output . And for the first time in th in {disfmarker} in the world , we look at our output , and um {disfmarker} and see uh whether it {disfmarker} it 's any good .
Grad A: OK .
Grad D: You know ? I mean ,
Grad E: Here 's hoping .
Grad D: Hmm ?
Grad E: Here 's hoping . Right ? Now cross your fingers .
Grad D: Yeah , I {disfmarker} I mean , for me this is just a ba matter of curiosity , I wanna {disfmarker} would like to look at uh , what this ad - hoc process of designing a belief - net would actually produce .
Grad E: Yeah . {comment} Yeah .
Grad A: Mmm .
Grad D: If {disfmarker} if we ask it where is something . And , maybe it also h enables you to think about certain things more specifically , um , come up with interesting questions , to which you can find interesting answers . And , additionally it might fit in really nicely with the paper . Because if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if we want an example for the paper , I suggest there it is .
Grad E: Um - hmm . Yeah .
Grad D: So th this might be a nice opening paragraph for the paper as saying , " you know people look at kinds of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} at ambiguities " , and um , in the literature there 's " bank " and whatever kinds of garden path phenomenon .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: And we can say , well , that 's all nonsense . A , A , uh these things are never really ambiguous in discourse , B , B , don't ever occur really in discourse , but normal statements that seem completely unambiguous , such as " where is the blah - blah " , actually are terribly complex , and completely ambiguous .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad D: And so , what every everybody else has been doing so far in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} you know , has been completely nonsensical , and can all go into the wastepaper bin , and the only {disfmarker}
Grad E: That 's always a good way to begin . Yeah . Yeah .
Grad D: Yeah . And the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the only {disfmarker}
Grad B: I am great .
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad E: All others are useless .
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad E: That 's good .
Grad D: Nice overture , but , you know , just not really {disfmarker} OK , I 'm eja exaggerating , but that might be , you know , saying " hey " , you know , some stuff is {disfmarker} is actually complex , if you look at it in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the vacuum
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: and {disfmarker} and ceases to be complex in reality . And some stuff that 's as {disfmarker} that 's absolutely straightforward in the vacuum , is actually terribly complex in reality . Would be nice sort of , uh , also , nice , um bottom - up linguistics , um , type message .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . True .
Grad D: Versus the old top - down school . I 'm running out of time . OK .
Grad B: When do you need to start wizarding ?
Grad D: At four ten . OK , this is the other bit of news . The subjects today know Fey , so she can't be here , and do the wizarding . So I 'm gonna do the wizarding
Grad E: Huh .
Grad D: and Thilo 's gonna do the instructing .
Grad B: Mmm .
Grad D: Also we 're getting a {disfmarker} a person who just got fired uh , from her job . Uh a person from Oakland who is interested in maybe continuing the wizard bit once Fey leaves in August . And um , she 's gonna look at it today . Which is good news in the sense that if we want to continue , after the thir thir after July , we can . We could . And , um {disfmarker} and that 's also maybe interesting for Keith and whoever , if you wanna get some more stuff into the data collection . Remember this , we can completely change the set - up any time we want .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . OK .
Grad D: Look at the results we 've gotten so far for the first , whatever , fifty some subjects ?
Grad A: Fifty ? You 've had fifty so far , or {disfmarker} ?
Grad D: No , we 're approaching twenty now .
Grad A: OK .
Grad D: But , until Fey is leaving , we surely will hit the {disfmarker} some of the higher numbers .
Grad A: Yeah . Hmm .
Grad D: And um , so that 's cool . Can a do more funky stuff .
Grad E: Sure . Yeah , I 'll have to look more into that data . Is that around ? Like , cuz that 's pretty much getting posted or something right away when you get it ?
Grad D: Um .
Grad E: Or {disfmarker} ? I guess it has to be transcribed , huh ?
Grad D: We have uh , eh found someone here who 's hand st hand transcribing the first twelve .
Grad E: OK .
Grad D: First dozen subjects
Grad E: Uh - huh .
Grad D: just so we can build a {disfmarker} a language model for the recognizer .
Grad E: OK .
Grad D: But , um {disfmarker} So those should be available soon .
Grad E: OK .
Grad D: The first twelve . And I can ch ch st e
Grad E: You know {disfmarker} I mean you know that I {disfmarker} that I looked at the first {disfmarker} the first one and got enough data to keep me going for , you know , probably most of July . So . {vocalsound} But , um . Yeah , a probably not the right way to do it actually .
Grad D: But you can listen to {disfmarker} a y y y You can listen to all of them from your Solaris box .
Grad E: OK .
Grad D: If you want .
Grad E: Right .
Grad D: It 's always fun .
| |
doc_42
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Project Manager: Wait for the marketing director actually , so . Anyways . Uh . See , shall we wait ? I'm not sure if he's late or delayed or whatever , so I'm gonna start soon , we have now {disfmarker} don't have much time anyway .
User Interface: Oh , there he is .
Industrial Designer: Okay ,
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: There you are ,
Industrial Designer: we {disfmarker}
Marketing: Sorry ,
Project Manager: okay .
Marketing: a little bit of pl little problem with computer .
Project Manager: Uh no problem . We're about to start , so have a seat . Okay , welcome again .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} .
Project Manager: Today , functional design phase . I'll take you over the minutes of last last meeting . Okay , that was just to get to know each other ,
Marketing: Uh .
Project Manager: have a little thoughts on what your vision is and {disfmarker} on this project , so {disfmarker} I put the minutes on the {disfmarker} I made on the on the p the the project share , so if you wanna review them , they're there . I will do so after every meeting , so if you have some information you wanna take back you can find it there . Anyways , um today three presentations , from every one of you . Um after that I got some new project requirements from project board , so we're gonna go af go after {disfmarker} over this later . But I wanna start with uh stuff you did first , so we can see what everybody came up with . And after that we can have the new requirements and share some thoughts , so . Who would like {disfmarker} wanna go first ?
Marketing: Yeah , sure , no problem .
Project Manager: Take it .
User Interface: Go ahead .
Marketing: Um there was a little problem with my computer so not uh the whole uh presentation uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Anyway , let's see what you have .
Marketing: Yeah . Um {disfmarker} Okay ,
Project Manager: Uh it's still a bit open .
Marketing: I want to open the my s oh no .
Project Manager: You should close it on your own notebook , I guess . Yeah . So there ?
Marketing: Oh no ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: that's okay . Uh slide show . Yes . The functional requirements , it's uh {vocalsound} uh very important for uh the user , he he wants to {disfmarker} yeah . The the method we used uh it it's not m not a slide , because it went wrong , but the method we use uh , um {vocalsound} we tested it w uh with uh a hundred uh men , and we asked them to w uh what the remote uh f feel uh like and uh what what's uh important . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: If I can cut in , is it people or men ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: People ,
Project Manager: Is it people , okay .
Marketing: sorry .
Project Manager: 'Cause I thought it was only men ,
Marketing: Both women and men ,
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
Marketing: yeah .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Marketing: Okay . Uh the findings um uh {vocalsound} seventy five percent of the users find most remote controls ugly . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's pretty shocking uh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So we have to s we have to do something about that .
Marketing: Yeah , and {disfmarker} yeah , most th th they want to spend money for a better system , for better remote control , so we can do uh a l a little uh nice things with it , and um they use {disfmarker} yeah , they use zap a lot , um uh fifty percent say they only {disfmarker} So that's the most important things .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} oh yeah , not all of it is it on mine on my PowerPoint presentation ,
Project Manager: Okay , just talk ahead .
Marketing: but um uh the relevant buttons are the power , the channel selection and the volume selection .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: It's uh the most basic buttons that a user wants uh {vocalsound} to use . Uh less important is tel teletext ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: uh um they use it , but it's not uh very uh important uh on the scale of zero to ten they six and a half uh
Project Manager: Okay , that's okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and {disfmarker} but not important is the channel selection , the the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} hmm ?
Project Manager: That's a little weird .
Marketing: Oh , {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Which channel selection ?
Marketing: the the {disfmarker} no no no no no , that's very important , but uh w and not important in the audio settings , display settings
Project Manager: Okay ,
Marketing: and uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we can we can hide those under a menu or something ,
User Interface: Oh , okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um new preferences preferences . Uh um um beep to find your control , was {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's like a button on your T_V_ ?
Marketing: that was {gap} in the test , the the most people uh f find it uh irritating uh when they cannot find a rem their remote control ,
Project Manager: Remote , okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: so uh I think it's a bee beep to sound it and uh you can find it . And another thing uh they want was uh speech recognition um so they can say uh what they want to {disfmarker} let's go to channel one and uh that's uh kind of things .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: And they want maybe an uh L_C_D_ screen um to to look it um wh what's on every channel uh and uh what do I want with it ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We wanna have a little preview on the remote control . Preview what's on the channel .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Is that manageable ? 'Cause it sounds pretty expensive too .
Project Manager: That sounds too {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: It's possible , but uh I think it's expensive , but do continue .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah . Um {disfmarker} Uh my personal preferences is uh a button for my favourite channel , so I can uh I dunno , so I can zap to my uh f uh quick uh to my favourite channel wh what I uh {disfmarker} so , the remote mu must see or um must um {vocalsound} see wha what mine preferences are for which channel ,
Project Manager: Okay , you don't set it yourself ,
Marketing: so I can zap t to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: it just remembers the channel that you are on most , for example .
Marketing: What ?
Project Manager: You want the {disfmarker} you want it to be programmed , for example y programmed f
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: or you want it to recognise your favourite channel ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Let's see , you you spend twenty minutes each day on that channel ,
Marketing: Recognise {disfmarker}
Project Manager: so it recognises your favourite channel .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah , that's uh what my personal preference like .
Project Manager: Okay , so it's it it does {disfmarker} it recognise itself , you don't have to set it {disfmarker}
Marketing: No ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: itself . Maybe it's easier to {vocalsound} to sell it , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: I don't know it's manageable , but we will uh we will see .
Project Manager: I see .
Marketing: Yeah , it's a little bit uh it's the end of it .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: It's a little bit uh I lost it ,
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: the computer uh crashed ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No problem , it's it's okay ,
Marketing: so .
Project Manager: that's {disfmarker} Yeah , go ahead .
User Interface: Shall I go ? Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: So , some technical functions .
Marketing: Darn computer .
User Interface: Basically I have some issues which you discussed earlier . Uh let's just start with the method .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} It sounds really easy , what does the user do , what does the th remote control do , but there are quite some issues . So the things I'm going to concentrate on are the user aspect , because the technical aspect , that's pretty much covered . We can do that . What goes wrong {vocalsound} at the user . Gets the remote control . Where is the remote control ? We've all had it once , I want to watch some television ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: where's the remote control ? That was one of your ideas which you posted in the network folder ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: That seems very good .
User Interface: a really good idea . Uh these are just the issues . I come to some uh personal experience , findings , possible solutions later . Searches for the button . There are many buttons on a remote control which are not clear . Uh so either we lose those or we try to make it a little bit more clear .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Uh also symbols tend to fade after a while .
Marketing: Mm uh .
User Interface: There's nothing more annoying than faded symbols , because you don't know which channel is this button , so possibly we could find uh something for that ,
Project Manager: Okay , so have it more {disfmarker} make it more durable actually . Okay .
User Interface: yes . Uh covered that . Oh yes , user presses the button . Um usually when you have a lot of buttons , buttons are small . So you press more once remote control goes kablouey or something like that ,
Project Manager: Okay , so the buttons should be {disfmarker}
User Interface: so we have to pay attention not to put too mun too many buttons on uh the remote control . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
User Interface: And possibly also the size , so more important buttons , bigger
Project Manager: Wow . The s Yeah . Make it {disfmarker} make them bigger .
User Interface: si
Project Manager: Even more durable uh .
User Interface: So this is basically what I h had in mind in the {disfmarker} fade-proof symbols , locator , a sound , uh so clear we should stick to existing symbols , but maybe we could do a little uh investigation to see whether some symbols are uh {disfmarker} need to be replaced by others . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: This I pretty much covered . {vocalsound} So what we want to go to is not this one ,
Project Manager: Yeah , it's true .
User Interface: but more {disfmarker} less buttons , easy , some bigger buttons .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: that's basically uh what I had in mind . So
Project Manager: Yeah , that's clear .
User Interface: This is not the final design ,
Project Manager: No , of course uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: this is just a general idea of how I'd like to see uh basically the general idea .
Project Manager: Yeah . I must say that it {disfmarker} Hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So that was it .
Project Manager: That was it . Okay , that was good . So we agree on the the part that we need to get something on the on the remote to find it somewhere and increase it {disfmarker} the durability of of the thing ,
User Interface: Yeah , I think it's a really good idea .
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: The other aspects , we'll just see how {disfmarker} what you came up with and what's possible for that budget .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay , that's fine . Um . Okay , now work a little with me . Okay . Well ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: let's start it as it is . Okay , uh the method . There are a few questions that need to be answered , uh you already uh talked about it a little bit . Which buttons are wanted , uh is our remote control universal or should it be programmable . Uh if it should be programmeab grammeale then we need um something like a mode that you can switch it . Because then the buttons have to send out a different signal then they would normally do .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And uh how big is the remote control uh going to be ? I'll tell you why that's important to me . Um there are a lot of technical parts in the remote control , so uh uh that's {vocalsound} why I also would like to say uh go a little bit easy on the designs , uh I heard ab uh you talking about beeps and about uh video screens , but uh the material inside and the technical aspects are quite complex already .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So keep in mind that everything that you keep uh {disfmarker} think of , it has to b to be built .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} Of course , hmm .
Industrial Designer: So it's {disfmarker} that's not as easy as it s might look like .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh material study , I'm working on that um for the the costs . I have to check out how far I can go with that . Normally , a circuit board is made of fibreglass uh and the wires are made of copper . Uh that is how it is done and all the remote controls work that way , I think we can just go on with that . Um then I've read more integration of materials means less cost for the production . The more we can make uh at once uh in one piece , uh that is cheaper .
Project Manager: You mean integrate them all into the circuit board . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Exactly , so if we make a circuit board with the the connections already on it , then that's cheaper .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , okay .
Industrial Designer: So we have to {vocalsound} make something that's not too difficult in design again .
Project Manager: So you have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: This is what look like uh looks like if you press one button , so this is not the entire thing . You have the the power coming in , then you have like a switch . The switch uh uh {vocalsound} uh if you p press it then some electrical charge goes into the processor , that thinks over a Morse code , that's how you should see it . The Morse code goes to the amplifier , then uh the signal is sent to two uh light bulbs . You have infrared and an interv um {vocalsound} uh how to say it ? Uh a light in indication , light that you know that it's functioning .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh here again , that's my story about the different modes , if you do want to make remote uh universal , then the processor has to uh make up a different Morse code when some button is pressed . That makes it much more complex , so we really need to have a look , do we want that or not . Uh I don't have any personal p uh preferences uh so far , except for uh the materials to be used uh light , that they are light .
Project Manager: Okay . Okay . That was it ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That was it .
Project Manager: I'll get back to my thing then . Uh {disfmarker} Okay , back this up {disfmarker} to the screen . So I got some new information on the project specifications are changing a little . Like you said uh teletext is not not very popular anymore because the uh the internet , nowadays people don't use the teletext anymore or hardly , so it can either {disfmarker} Well , I don't think we should remove the button , because there are always people who are using it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: But I don't think it should be {vocalsound} very {disfmarker} it should be one of the big buttons for example . Just put it somewhere or under second option or whatever . It's not important anymore . Um we're targeting young people now , because our um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} This is a new product and with this new product we want to appeal to younger people ,
Marketing: Uh .
Project Manager: which are {disfmarker} um the younger people were defined under forty .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I so I think it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: that's also good with the fashion and everything ,
Marketing: B
Project Manager: so yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , and they want to pay for it
Project Manager: They want to pay for it , people are willing to spend money actually to buy a um remote that they like .
Marketing: and uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: If they like the way it looks , the way it functions , so they're actually gonna spend uh spend money on it .
Marketing: With more {disfmarker} Where {disfmarker} with more technical specifications
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: in the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound} see how far we can go with it anyway , so
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {disfmarker} And one thing that should be important is that the corporate l colour and slogan are recognisable , which is apparently {vocalsound} black and yellow , but {disfmarker} I'm not sure if we {disfmarker} I think we should keep the the logo in mind , because with colours you can uh have a lot of uh fashionable colours and everything on it , which suits everybody's taste . So {disfmarker} With that concept I started thinking , so why not just steal Nokia's idea and just make changeable covers for your {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh .
Project Manager: I mean those cost hardly anything I think , and people could even spend extra money on buying a cover
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: and so have an entire new remote control that they like to see . Or we can sh for example we can make a different {vocalsound} {disfmarker} a basic design . And sell the covers separately , for example . That's just a little marketing idea that could be applied , so you can p it appeals to really everyone . So you don't have to {disfmarker} I think you don't have to make entire remote controls . We make a basic one and manufacture this cover separately .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So that was that was my idea on what we could do to appeal this product to everyone . So
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: just {disfmarker} I'm not sure if you came up with anything in the meantime , after making a presentation . Would you like to share ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: No , I think this is a good idea .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
Marketing: But {disfmarker} oh ?
User Interface: Is it manageable ? Is it easy ?
Industrial Designer: Go ahead .
Marketing: Yeah , with with an L_C_D_ screen you can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh yeah . I think we should lose the L_C_D_ screen ,
Industrial Designer: Y Yes , I think so too .
Project Manager: like you said . I think for example it's it's huge {disfmarker} I think the L_C_D_ is huge ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Why ? Nokia w
Project Manager: it consumes batteries like hell .
Marketing: Uh .
Project Manager: I think it takes up a lot of a lot of power .
User Interface: And it costs too much to fabricate ,
Project Manager: It costs a lot , I think .
User Interface: so we're on a tight budget here .
Industrial Designer: Okay , uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What we could do , what could be possible , is maybe not an L_C_D_ screen but with a preview ,
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: but y I'm not sure if it's even possible {vocalsound} . For example , a little T_V_ guide .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Like you have a little {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: just just a text only , not colour , just a little text thing
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: so you can use your remote as a T_V_ guide . I'm not sure it's even possible ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm . I have to check that out ,
Project Manager: but maybe okay , make it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I'm not sure .
Project Manager: Yeah , find a little compromise in that , but {disfmarker} What did I write down ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think the p yeah , the beep is a very simple thing to imple implement , just make a button on your T_V_
Industrial Designer: That must be possible .
Project Manager: and just hit the button , it beeps somewhere . I think it's easy to implement ,
Industrial Designer: Ja .
Project Manager: we should go for that .
Industrial Designer: I'm sorry ,
Project Manager: Uh speech recognition .
User Interface: And it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: whe where do you wanna hit the T_ {disfmarker} you wanna {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we want a button on the television . {gap}
Project Manager: I thin {vocalsound} Yeah , I mean where else should you put it ?
Industrial Designer: In th okay , but that rules out a universal remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Because that's not possible uh .
Project Manager: but {vocalsound} how are you gonna use that if your {disfmarker} I mean if your remote control is lost , how are you gonna press {disfmarker} where are you gonna press the button ?
Industrial Designer: Uh . Yeah . Exactly .
User Interface: Maybe just a slap-on sticker with a button which sends out a small signal .
Project Manager: A slap-on sticker . Oh , you mean as like a separate thing you can attach to your T_V_ .
Marketing: Mm uh .
Project Manager: Yeah , that could be possible .
User Interface: Yeah , exactly .
Project Manager: A little little box you can attach to your T_V_ is fine then , okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay , then uh I'd I'd like to know now if we want the uh universal remote control or not , because that's uh determines everything I'm gonna do .
Project Manager: I think it's universal . I think we should go for universal ,
Industrial Designer: If not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: because apparently we're a separate company making separate c remote controls to sell to a lot of diverse people .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: I think universal remote control should be possible .
Marketing: Yeah . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay , then I go for that .
Marketing: Everyone uh wants to buy it , so we w
Project Manager: Yeah , I think we're targeting everyone ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: so remote {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay . No ,
Marketing: yeah .
Industrial Designer: it's fine with me , but then I know what to look for .
Project Manager: Okay , universal is good . Speech recognition , I think it's very hard , because we're selling across multiple countries . So I think implementing speech recognition is such a small um apparatus , it's very hard to do .
Marketing: Yeah . Or one .
User Interface: And it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Or when you say one two uh i it uh it's enough ,
Project Manager: Yeah , but I don't see Arabian people speaking one , two uh whatever .
Marketing: right ? But {disfmarker} Oh yeah .
User Interface: Besides that , the technology isn't really super yet , so that {vocalsound} is a problem in implementing this .
Project Manager: It's {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: It's not a mature technology , I think it takes a lot of memory and everything in in a remote control ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's a good idea , but it's just not {disfmarker} I don't think the market's ripe for that yet .
Project Manager: I don't think it should be implemented in a remote control yet uh .
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh .
Project Manager: What else do we have ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um well you should you should look into the in into the materials that are real durable . So the the the symbols won't fade ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: maybe a little harder plastic
Industrial Designer: Exactly .
Project Manager: or especially li we don't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I already noted that .
Project Manager: maybe we don't have have to do all the buttons , but especially the ones that are um the popular buttons , so those always fade first .
Industrial Designer: Mm , okay . Okay .
Project Manager: Mm the thing is the most important things that we have now .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: Let's see .
Industrial Designer: If we uh make a remote control with changeable covers , then we can also make uh a cover for every language area .
Project Manager: For example ?
Industrial Designer: That's fo {vocalsound} is uh especially for older people , that they can read it read it in their own language .
Project Manager: Well , we're not we're not targeting older people ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: we should remember that . Everything we target is under forty ,
Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: so .
Industrial Designer: okay , okay .
Project Manager: You assume that that they read correctly and I think they're {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Huh .
Project Manager: The most important thing about young people is that they're really sensitive to to trends that are passing through the world ,
Marketing: But b
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh okay .
User Interface: But should the exchangeable covers include the buttons themselves or just the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No , of course . No , I think it's just something you you put over them , because {disfmarker} Yeah we c Yeah , you ca Well ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: tha that's not a that's not a bad {disfmarker} that's not even {disfmarker}
User Interface: C
Marketing: But every {disfmarker}
User Interface: that's a problem with the with the text then .
Project Manager: it's not even a bad idea . I mean , for example , if you're if you're into the durability issue you could {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: For example , if your buttons are faded , after {disfmarker} I mean if you make a durable remote , they are faded , you can just buy a new cover .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Uh I'm not sure it's it's hard to make .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: So it's a good and a bad idea .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh but I know that the buttons are like a Nokia telephone on uh one sleeve ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so you don't have to change your whole cover . Uh we can make something that you can only remove the sleeve .
User Interface: Oh yeah , I know what you mean .
Industrial Designer: Know what I mean ?
Marketing: Oh .
Industrial Designer: It works the same as a Nokia telephone , it's it's in my uh {disfmarker} 'kay .
Project Manager: Yeah , I know , it's just just a one one piece of rubber for example ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: okay . Yeah ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Exactly .
Project Manager: that's what I {disfmarker} something I have to look into . Either either change both the buttons and and the cover or just the cover , I'm not sure which which is easier ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um anyway , yeah , this is what we're gonna do afterwards , just lunch break and have more individual work after that , so let's see what we {disfmarker} let's see we {disfmarker} So you have to come up with a components concept , yeah . I want some {disfmarker} you should do some trend-watching , because even if we're if we're gonna do those covers and everything , what people really want , that's what we need to know in this phase ,
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: because that's gonna be the essential final design that we're gonna come up with .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Yeah , I think user interface is fairly obvious . I mean it should be very intuitive ,
User Interface: Pretty straightforward .
Project Manager: s Yeah , it should speak for itself . Uh for example I bought a remote control last week with a new T_V_ , it was it l it's like all buttons and you have no idea what it does at first ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and I'm {gap} total T_V_ new , anyway . So I think it should be {disfmarker} have less or l very little buttons and maybe a second {vocalsound} second level menu for the advanced things . Or maybe just stick 'em under a menu , like you said the um {vocalsound} the sound options and the surround and whatever , they're more complicated , just stick 'em under one menu and uh give it a {disfmarker} just put it in in s in a software piece , you can menu and you can uh select everything you want to to set on your T_V_ .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Is it techni technically possible to uh {vocalsound} send a signal to a television and then pops up a menu ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: because we're working with different types of television , so we're going to work with that ?
Project Manager: That is true .
Industrial Designer: I don't think so .
Project Manager: No , that's true .
Industrial Designer: No , I don't think so . Because the television needs to respond to the signal ,
Project Manager: Yeah , that's true .
User Interface: It's an in-built menu ,
Industrial Designer: and if it doesn't know how , it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: isn't it ? Yes .
Industrial Designer: Exactly , that's not possible .
User Interface: So basically
Project Manager: I'm not sure if it's impossible ,
User Interface: we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but uh there's a chance it's not , so .
User Interface: Or we could use a double-sided {disfmarker} for {vocalsound} less used functions
Project Manager: A double-sided remote control ?
User Interface: you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I don't think that's useful .
User Interface: Yeah , with the cover . {vocalsound} I it's basically an idea to overcome these issues ,
Project Manager: Yeah , but then you're gonna have a lot of wasted buttons .
User Interface: because {disfmarker}
Project Manager: For example you have a Sony T_V_ and the half of the buttons won't function if you have a {disfmarker} for a Sony that won't {disfmarker} for a Philips T_V_ .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: No , but basic functions {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: but functions which are not frequently used .
Project Manager: I don't think we should {disfmarker}
User Interface: Because if we use a universal remote control , we're going to have to have most buttons on it ,
Project Manager: Yeah , for exam
User Interface: so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I'm not s
Marketing: Mm yeah .
Project Manager: yeah , for ex you have to make it a little decision between the part if you want a universal remote control that {disfmarker} it should do what people usually do with their T_V_s , not not the very complicated settings
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: that you can usually do that with uh either a old old remote control if they really hate that thing ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: but you can't you cannot take into consideration all the different brands of T_V_s .
Industrial Designer: But that might be broken .
Project Manager: I think there's I think there is a standard for example between uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} Hmm .
Project Manager: because usually the the menu is {disfmarker} the menu button is is usable between different brands . Especially the big ones , the big brands ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Hmm .
Project Manager: so . 'Cause everybody {disfmarker} I have a universal remote control and it can use the menu button , so I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: I'm not sure , if you can put some research into that , if it's possible . Uh I think just a b
Industrial Designer: Mm okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and the navigation is very basic , it's usually the same thing .
Industrial Designer: Mm . But I think there must be a way uh to invoke the more complicated functions of a television . For instance , if your old remote control is broken and you buy ours , then uh you should be able to get everything out of the television that's in it .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah , that's true . I think so
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Because otherwise you'll lose functions by buying our {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: uh we need to put some research into that if if we can open the menu , I think it's possible , just the way how to .
Industrial Designer: Okay , I thi I think so too .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , then then you could do everything I suppose , because usually the T_V_s have tha that inside in this other little piece of software , so it's okay .
Industrial Designer: And I think that our r remote control should not look like uh any other . For instance uh Sony makes all their remote controls exactly the same for all their devices ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and you always grab the wrong one because formatting of the buttons is exactly the same , only the labels are different .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah I think it should be a little distinct from everything else ,
Industrial Designer: We should not do that .
Project Manager: because it's {disfmarker} either it's both {gap} mayb
Industrial Designer: Exactly .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah ,
Project Manager: maybe the shape can be a little different .
User Interface: I have some ideas . I have some ideas .
Project Manager: Maybe it's a little more curves or whatever .
Industrial Designer: Mm that's your uh division . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} yeah . And uh with different colours uh .
Project Manager: So um {disfmarker}
User Interface: I'll put some on paper and present them next time uh the ideas that I have .
Project Manager: Yeah , this {gap} . Not sure what {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: because we have forty minutes , I'm not sure how much time we have left for the meeting anyway , so .
User Interface: I heard a beep go .
Project Manager: Yeah , but it wasn't me , it was him closing something .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So anyway , yeah , we could do some i do some work now on on the design for example . I mean what do you want , do you want {gap} , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , but we like some some curves or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , may maybe something like this . But though smooth inside . So you have the transmitter here for example .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Let's see that you {disfmarker} what would be handy . I think that the {vocalsound} the buttons should be {disfmarker} the channel buttons should be {vocalsound} uh on their own .
Marketing: Uh . And a light uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Let's see one , two {disfmarker} God damn it .
User Interface: Oh , we get the general ideas , yes .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay . {vocalsound} Another one here . Let's see what {disfmarker} I think this should {disfmarker} these are always on top of the of the control , so they should be here .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah , and since you're holding it like this , I suggest you put the channel up channel down and volume {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Think it's like this . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Volume .
Project Manager: Withi within the {disfmarker} Yeah , just take it .
User Interface: yeah yeah . So you have the up channel {vocalsound} the down channel {disfmarker} the volume , do we want that horizontal or vertical ?
Project Manager: Do you take triangles or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh it's it's fine , I think .
Project Manager: Um I think it should be I think it {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: This is basically what people are accustomed to ,
Project Manager: Maybe we should make 'em bigger or whatever .
User Interface: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , but this is just a g general idea .
Marketing: Oh d {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Uh maybe the menu button can go i in the middle .
Project Manager: Yeah , in the middle . It's it's usually uh there , but {disfmarker} Mm .
User Interface: Whoa .
Industrial Designer: Perhaps we should also make uh something like a flash on it , if you {disfmarker} if it's lost , for people that are deaf . They they won't hear the the beep .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , but for example if it's lost in your armchair , we'll not see the flash .
User Interface: You won't be able to find it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: And flash takes up a lot of batteries again .
Industrial Designer: Uh . Yeah , it's true , but it's it's only has to do so when you press the button that it's lost .
Marketing: Just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: We could make a combination that it goes beep and that you {disfmarker} that some light lights up .
Industrial Designer: So . {gap} deaf people ?
Marketing: And L_E_D_ uh on it .
Project Manager: Yeah , I thought about for deaf people for example , so . We could do that . Uh let's see .
Marketing: Just a light on it or {disfmarker}
User Interface: So we have the basic channels we've got here , uh the power button somewhere over here ?
Project Manager: Oh yeah , it's true . Um that thing should be central .
Marketing: Very important .
Project Manager: You shouldn't be {disfmarker} you uh shouldn't press it by accident , but it shouldn't be stacked away somewhere .
Marketing: Oh ,
User Interface: I usually press it on top .
Marketing: that's {disfmarker} It's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: At least that's what I'm accustomed to .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I have another idea ,
Project Manager: Yeah , like that's gonna work . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'm not sure if it's possible .
Marketing: And {disfmarker}
User Interface: What would you like to {gap} ?
Project Manager: Yeah , I thought maybe we should move the buttons down
Marketing: But you r
Project Manager: and put it here for example
Marketing: And you are reading from the t
Project Manager: to {disfmarker}
Marketing: you always read from the top to the the bottom of it .
Project Manager: From top to bottom . Yeah , that's true ,
Marketing: Yeah ,
Project Manager: you should {disfmarker}
Marketing: so it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think the bu the power button should be on top ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: 'cause it's the first thing you do {vocalsound} , turn it on . So power button on top . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay , mute button . Is that somewhere here ?
Project Manager: Mute . Do we hardly {disfmarker} I think it should be at the bottom somewhere .
User Interface: Is that used often ?
Marketing: So i it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: The mute button ? Do people use that often ?
Marketing: sorry ?
Project Manager: Mute . Turn the sound off .
Marketing: No , it's {disfmarker} no . {vocalsound}
User Interface: 'Cause uh I'm pretty much accustomed to it {vocalsound} right over here , at least in general ,
Marketing: Uh . Hmm .
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I don't think it's important , {gap} but I think it I think it should be {disfmarker} you c
User Interface: It's not that important , no .
Project Manager: you could put it somewhere here .
Marketing: Or or with the volume selection . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No , because it {disfmarker} Yeah , people are accustomed to that ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Around uh not uh not at top at the {disfmarker} around the volume selection .
Project Manager: it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Can I have that ? That's j
User Interface: Sure .
Marketing: I don't know where exactly ,
Project Manager: Take this out and here see {disfmarker}
Marketing: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh are we gonna take triangles anyway ? I'm drawing triangles , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: That's pretty much what people are accustomed to ,
Project Manager: Yeah ,
User Interface: aren't they ?
Project Manager: it's maybe a bigger lesser than thing . So anyway , I think this is {disfmarker} should be the channels and {disfmarker} or sh
User Interface: Well ,
Marketing: Wha
User Interface: I'm accustomed to the channels being on top .
Marketing: No . Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Here ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , me too .
Project Manager: okay . Okay ,
Marketing: Yeah , that's better .
Project Manager: should we chan
Marketing: On the right .
Project Manager: okay , {vocalsound} this two , channel up and down .
Industrial Designer: Shall we uh also look if it's possible to make a rechargeable remote ? That you don't have to buy new batteries if every {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: for {disfmarker} that is it's on one part it's um it's a good thing to recharge it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Maybe it's more ex expensive .
Industrial Designer: Mm , yeah .
Project Manager: Maybe we should {disfmarker} what what could be possible is one with rechargeable batteries for example .
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: You have {disfmarker} just put Penlite batteries that are rechargeable , because it's an it's it's it's very annoying .
User Interface: But isn't that expensive in the entire package ?
Industrial Designer: But that's already possible .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I'm not sure y {vocalsound} I'm not sure it's {disfmarker} if it's expensive , but just take a look at it , because it might be a very good idea . Because if {disfmarker} it's it's uh useful to have it rechargeable ,
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: but at the same time , if you don't want recha if you forgot to recharge it and you wanna watch T_V_ now , you wanna be able to put different batteries in it , use it now and not in half an hour .
Industrial Designer: Yes . Yes . Okay . Uh you could make a device , but I'm not sure how that uh is possible with the costs , that you can put in normal batteries , rechargeable ,
Project Manager: I think I have a nice idea .
Industrial Designer: but it {disfmarker} you're {disfmarker} the remote also can act as a recharger . So then you can choose , you have every decision . Know what I mean ?
Project Manager: Not exactly uh .
Industrial Designer: You can uh put in normal Penlites , rechargeable Penlites , but they can also be recharged with the remote , with a wire .
Marketing: Hmm . Yeah yeah .
Project Manager: I think it's uh it's a pretty good idea to have uh like sort of a {disfmarker} maybe a base station that you put on the T_V_ . Could be flat , you could insert your uh remote into it .
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , that's g
Industrial Designer: But I think that will cost a lot .
Project Manager: I'm not sure .
Industrial Designer: Uh a normal wire would be better .
Project Manager: A what ?
Industrial Designer: Like a like a P_D_A_ , a hand-held . You can uh just put it in the electricity and it charges itself ,
Project Manager: Well , we were talking about the fact that we wanted to insert either a beep or a flash into the thing with a little separate signal
Industrial Designer: you don't need basic station . Yes .
Project Manager: or {disfmarker} So you could put that on a T_V_ for example .
Industrial Designer: That is possible , that's true .
Project Manager: It could be very flat , could be very small .
Marketing: But {disfmarker} Which {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's a very small {disfmarker} Yeah , I'm drawing it big now , but {disfmarker} So you can put your remote on flat for example .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: And at the backside of remote just just just a little hole
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: for example um you just {vocalsound} put it down , it recharges for example .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: I don't think it's very expensive .
User Interface: But again , isn't that too expensive ?
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: 'Cause that means that we have to implement rechargeable batteries , a docking station {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm not sure if it costs a lot , that that's what he r
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: That's that you {disfmarker} that's what you buy yourself .
Industrial Designer: Yes . I'm going to try to find that out . I'm not sure if there's information available on this ,
Project Manager: It's just an idea , we have to find out if it's possible .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: And do people actually want that ? To pay extra {disfmarker} they want to pay for rechargeable ?
Marketing: Yeah , they want to pay for it .
Project Manager: Do they want {disfmarker} but they want a rechargeable one ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I'm not sure , you should find out if it's {disfmarker} if rechargeable is important .
Marketing: Th uh there was not a el ask esque {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . These are uh comfort issues . So I think people will pay {disfmarker} they wanted to pay for comfort .
Marketing: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: They want to pay for comfort ,
Industrial Designer: Well , this is comfort .
Project Manager: we just assu we we could either make a separate station which just sends a signal to the remote control to either beep or flash to find it ,
Marketing: But f hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: um and {disfmarker} Yeah , we have to {disfmarker} either that or make it integrated with a with a docking station .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Yeah . Exactly . I think this is a brilliant product .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think it would be good actually .
Industrial Designer: I would buy it myself .
Project Manager: I like the beep part {vocalsound} anyway .
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So um
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: let's go through the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I like the covers . That's a brilliant idea .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Can can we save this or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Covers is covers is good .
Industrial Designer: I never thought {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , it's {disfmarker} Oh we can save this . Up and saved . We even saved the ant . {gap} Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay . So
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: what we have is {disfmarker} you have {disfmarker} I think you have {vocalsound} to do a lot of work on if it's possible for the cost .
Industrial Designer: I hope if I have information about that ,
Project Manager: Maybe {disfmarker} yeah ,
Industrial Designer: I'm gonna {disfmarker}
Project Manager: or {vocalsound} maybe you can find out i what people are willing to pay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: We are going for twenty five Euros sales price ,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah , okay .
Project Manager: but just try to find out what they're willing to pay for it , because if they're willing to pay more , we could lose a little profit and maybe attract more customers ,
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: uh we just have to see what it looks like .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I would like to make a decision {gap} . What it costs and what kind of materials that we can uh choose what we want in it
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , if you have some financial information that that'd be nice ,
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} exactly , I need it .
Project Manager: so . Hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Could you post some {vocalsound} other essentials of what people want , so that I can work with some buttons , where to put it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: You seem to have information on that , I'd like to uh see some of it .
Industrial Designer: Was it not possible to uh send emails around the office ?
Project Manager: No , it wasn't wasn't allo
User Interface: No , it's not . No .
Project Manager: it was possible ,
Industrial Designer: Not {gap} .
Project Manager: not allowed , so . So that's um why I'm not sure that {vocalsound} you're allowed to share documents on the on the draft .
Marketing: Yeah . My computer crashed ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , okay .
Marketing: so uh
Project Manager: I don't care . I haven't heard any complaints yet ,
User Interface: Oh , your computer . Okay .
Marketing: I lost my uh presentation ,
Project Manager: so . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: but I have the uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , I have your PowerPoint presentation , I can get some inf information out of that .
Marketing: Yeah , but I Here I have the the s the homepage of uh our internet ,
User Interface: Let's see .
Project Manager: Yeah , the oh , they inc uh
Marketing: and here is my
Project Manager: they include the new one . {vocalsound} Or just for you .
User Interface: Oh , where would we {disfmarker}
Marketing: here is my marketing report ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh
Marketing: maybe you ca you can look at uh {vocalsound} that
Project Manager: no , I didn't have that .
Marketing: and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Where would we want the uh teletext button ?
Marketing: Ah yeah .
User Interface: Because we decided that it's n not that important .
Project Manager: All it tells {gap} just {disfmarker} let's make make a new {disfmarker}
Marketing: And one {disfmarker}
User Interface: Do we put it somewhere over here ?
Project Manager: tick the new one . {vocalsound} Um other side . Yeah , let's increase it a little because {disfmarker}
Marketing: And uh wha what people want , I've uh
User Interface: Or maybe this is something for the next meeting , I can draw out some ideas .
Project Manager: Yeah , draw us up some some designs of of possible {disfmarker}
Marketing: I have another thing uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: just keep in mind that the important buttons should be on top and either big ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: so the more {disfmarker} less important {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , we have decided {vocalsound} more or less the basic structure .
Project Manager: More or less .
User Interface: I can put the other buttons in {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just play a little with this , put l shift a little up or down and we'll see what looks best .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: What uh what did you wanna say ?
Project Manager: Or just po post your designs from time to time on the product share .
Marketing: Yeah . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh what I al already said is the the uh the remote controls are always lost ,
User Interface: Maybe another idea uh .
Marketing: but it it's also for people , {vocalsound} they want to learn it fast ,
Industrial Designer: Mm . Mm .
Marketing: not uh {disfmarker} they want to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , so we don't want {gap} we want very little buttons , just the buttons you use a lot .
Marketing: No
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: It's {disfmarker} yeah , it's easy to learn
User Interface: Yes , but it should cover all the functions ,
Marketing: wi and uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well
User Interface: so possibly , just an idea that popped in {disfmarker}
Project Manager: what {disfmarker} we had function that what people do ,
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: so . People change channels , people {vocalsound} {disfmarker} they change the volume and they they change channel , they turn T_V_ off and on , for example . That's the basic fu that's what you do {disfmarker} I'm not sure who present that again , but those are the basic function that people use it for , so those should be very well represented .
User Interface: Yeah , but we could go a step further ,
Marketing: And {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} If {disfmarker}
User Interface: because some T_V_s have the uh possibility to adjust brightness , that kind of menus .
Project Manager: That's true , but that's what we stick under the menu button . Everything is {disfmarker} you say in every T_V_ that's configured under the menu .
User Interface: Yes , but it {disfmarker} Because we're making {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But that's the question , is it ?
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Because it needs to be configured in the television under the menu .
Project Manager: Yeah , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: If it isn't , then we cannot reach it .
User Interface: We need to adjust to the {vocalsound} technology .
Project Manager: But I think most modern T_V_s have it in their menu .
Industrial Designer: I think so too . I think so too .
User Interface: True .
Industrial Designer: Uh isn't there a possibility to do research on that , so we know that for sure ? If you rule out functions , then uh {disfmarker} and that gets known , then people are not gonna buy it .
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound} No , I thi
Industrial Designer: Then the consumer bond or something says uh you cannot do this and that with it . That's a bad bad com {vocalsound} commercial
Marketing: If um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh we'll we'll see what we can come up with .
Industrial Designer: for {vocalsound} {disfmarker} okay .
Marketing: Another thing I want to say is that uh we are looking at the market for the age uh {vocalsound} younger than forty .
Project Manager: Under forty . Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: That's true .
Marketing: Um on my report , {vocalsound} I didn't uh {vocalsound} ish I didn't show it in my uh presentation ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: because my computer crashed .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah .
Marketing: Um they want to pay for an L_C_D_ screen and speech recognition .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Hmm .
Project Manager: The want to pay for {disfmarker}
Marketing: So
Project Manager: Oh .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Did they really said it like that ? Those two things .
Marketing: i yeah . Yeah ,
Project Manager: Uh shall we ?
Industrial Designer: Do they realise how much that costs ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's almost undoable .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Younger , age sixteen and forty five .
User Interface: Oh , we're not going to be able to sell it for twenty-five then , with an L_C_D_ screen .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's all here , here it says {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No , that's that's {gap} . Even if i if we have this lost unit , then we cannot do it for that price .
Project Manager: Yeah , age sixteen forty fi interest in main features more critical .
Marketing: If if they {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , so we're not focusing on this . Um {disfmarker} All the interest in features , not really the L_C_ {disfmarker} oh here . Would you pay for uh speech recognition in a remote control . Hmm , okay ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , that's true .
Marketing: So uh
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: we can
Project Manager: Speech recognition is quite {disfmarker}
Marketing: We can look at the possibilities for an uh L_C_D_ and uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , just look at the possibilities then ,
Marketing: I dunno .
Project Manager: because if {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: apparently it's what people want ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: it's supposed to be a luxurious remote ,
Marketing: How much it will cost
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Marketing: and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: maybe it's not even that expensive . Or find a compromise , maybe just a black and white or {disfmarker} for some extra information on it , on your programmes .
Industrial Designer: Uh I {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: I doubt it , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But I really need finance information .
Project Manager: Me too . {vocalsound} I mean we all do . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It will come uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We all do . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right . I think it's something we should put into consideration . Apparently it's what people want , so . We should see if {disfmarker} what it costs , if it's possible .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Uh .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah , we should do a little thing about design , because it looks boring really to me . Even if you put it {disfmarker} even if you put a different cover on it , it looks {disfmarker} still looks boring ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Different colours maybe .
Project Manager: so .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . And the design , it should differ .
Marketing: But all {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: This is Philips , huh ?
Project Manager: I have no clue .
Industrial Designer: Philips has this .
Project Manager: I just drew something what {disfmarker} which would fit into your hand easily .
User Interface: Well , I had basically {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay . Hmm . Uh .
User Interface: Something like this . To make it kind of futuristic .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Oh , I realise if we make it small , then it needs to be a little thicker ,
Project Manager: I think it's a very {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: because I need to put all the electronics in it .
Project Manager: Sorry ?
Industrial Designer: If we make it s uh smaller , uh less wide , then we need to m make it a little thicker ,
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: because I have to put all the electronics in it .
Project Manager: Okay . Mm-hmm . Yeah , but you have to j just keep in mind it shouldn't be too heavy .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: I mean we can stick it in in there , I think .
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: Huh even if {disfmarker}
User Interface: So
Project Manager: in the worst case we can even {disfmarker}
User Interface: what kind of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Could you give me the pen back ?
User Interface: Yeah , sure .
Project Manager: So let's say that people would want an L_C_D_ thing . Let's take take the basic design again , what we {disfmarker} oh , crap {disfmarker} uh came up with . I'll just make it a little bigger now . So a transmitter here . Anyway . We could {disfmarker} let's say we have an L_C_D_ screen , people want an L_C_D_ screen . So then we should probably put it here .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It doesn't have to be really big , but just just have to be {disfmarker} has to be there .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: Think it's a good place , people don't {disfmarker}
Marketing: If you're reading from top to bottom , I think it's better to put it uh at the top .
Project Manager: No ? It's not that uh {disfmarker} it's not the most important function ,
Industrial Designer: Me too .
Marketing: It's j {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it's just an extra thing ,
Industrial Designer: Ah
Project Manager: it just {disfmarker} you press the buttons on top ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh . But i if you if you are going to uh put the L_C_D_ on it , {vocalsound} I think it's very important to use it ,
Industrial Designer: but {gap} .
Project Manager: because your finger is on top .
Marketing: uh because it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker} use it uh
Project Manager: How can you use an L_C_D_ screen ?
Marketing: But nee the function of it . {vocalsound} So you can use it maximum , because uh it's a lot {disfmarker} it costs a lot .
Project Manager: Yeah , but why
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} I'm not sure .
User Interface: Now it's pretty much tucked away in your hand .
Project Manager: Uh if you t if you press a button , you can see it ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm . No .
Project Manager: ri I'm not sure wha I'm trying to imagine myself what it would look like .
User Interface: I'm {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: M I personally would prefer it on the top .
Project Manager: You would prefer it n Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So we have three people saying it should be on top .
Industrial Designer: Huh .
Project Manager: Okay , but then you would would s have to stack away your buttons somewhere else .
Industrial Designer: But it {disfmarker} Hmm .
Project Manager: Anyways .
Marketing: It's expensive to build it ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: so
Project Manager: Uh this looks a little {disfmarker}
User Interface: I'm still not convinced of the {disfmarker}
Marketing: you must use the maximum of it .
Project Manager: About the L_C_D_s thing .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well if it if it's
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: if it's possible wi if it's not too expensive , we should include it ,
Industrial Designer: They want it uh .
Project Manager: because it's it's cool . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We should just try to make that if it's possible . If it is possible we should really do it , but we need that information .
Marketing: Huh . Uh . But uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Also keep in mind again , the L_C_D_ screen is very flat , but it needs transistors , resistors , I don't know what more and that needs space . So I have to look if that's possible .
Marketing: Yeah , I know uh .
User Interface: So basically
Industrial Designer: But if we {disfmarker}
User Interface: {disfmarker} can I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh we have green now uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: what we have to decide now is uh what goes on top . Do we put the volume control and the channel control here , or do we put it on he Would we like to press it in the middle ?
Project Manager: Or maybe we should m we could uh draw draw something a bit {disfmarker} that has it on on on the bottom .
Marketing: In middle of it . In the middle .
Project Manager: Maybe in a circle for example , like we {disfmarker} like in this example . I think this is not good , but for {disfmarker} we could make circular buttons for example . For up and down , ma make it a circle on it ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: Yes , but we do agree that we {vocalsound} keep this at the centre ,
Project Manager: because it {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: because it's basically the most important function .
Project Manager: I think the channel button should be in the centre .
Marketing: It's the most import yeah .
Project Manager: Channel button should be st stick together , for example here in this section . Because it's uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , that would make them quite small .
Project Manager: We're not sure about the size anyway ,
User Interface: So maybe you'd put them here .
Project Manager: just a general design . You can make it as big as you want . For example if you take uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes , but a big remote control probably not something which people would like .
Project Manager: No ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: let's see . For example just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: If we have a a space issue , we can also lose one battery . It is rechargeable , so we can stick with one instead of two .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {gap} .
Project Manager: I don't think if we if we even use an L_C_D_ screen , we need to , definitely .
Industrial Designer: That might be an option . Yeah , but if we need two batteries and an L_C_D_ screen , that means a lot of space that we need .
Project Manager: Yeah , but we have to see what the si what the size is .
Industrial Designer: But it has to be a little bit heavier .
Project Manager: The L_C_D_ doesn't have to nee doesn't need to be very big .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No , but the things behind it . {gap} space .
Project Manager: Mm let's see .
Industrial Designer: Like a process uh .
Marketing: Finish meeting now .
Project Manager: Finish meeting now .
Marketing: It's on your computer .
Project Manager: Okay , we will . So either {disfmarker}
User Interface: So would we like this or would we like the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We either we have to decide what what people want .
Industrial Designer: I like this one more .
Project Manager: Either this one , this this could be the luxurious one . So we have channel buttons here . I'm just drawing something uh . Uh {disfmarker} I think this would this would look cool . You could have it for example {disfmarker} small buttons here for some extra functions ,
Marketing: Uh .
Project Manager: so if your basic function's here , we should {disfmarker} like we decided before , programmes up and down , and volume here .
User Interface: Let's see what we have here .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Or {disfmarker} And uh what about speech recognition uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well you can just {disfmarker} no , I'm not sure if we can do that ,
Marketing: Yeah , yeah ,
Project Manager: but we could put a microphone in here for example .
Marketing: but {disfmarker} or or an L_C_D_ or an uh speech .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: I think it's {disfmarker} L_C_D_ is better now .
Project Manager: Just to do research into both , w what it costs and what it takes for space .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I'll try to .
Project Manager: But let's cut the meeting for now yes .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: One more uh thing I'd like to say , uh let's give this uh a name , and not like some vague serial number that no one understands , like with cars .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah , okay , yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Shall we all try uh to think about a name ?
User Interface: So I think of a name .
Marketing: that's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , let's think of a name , okay .
Marketing: yeah , that's okay .
Project Manager: Uh okay .
Marketing: Oh , good .
Project Manager: Okay , at anyways , the the minutes will be on the on the web shortly ,
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: so there we go uh .
User Interface: Yes , go and finish up and I'll see you at lunch .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Good luck .
Project Manager: Yeah , to all .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Same .
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I've {disfmarker} Do we uh save the {gap} ?
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: {gap} . {gap} .
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Marketing: Did you get my email with the slides ? Ah . Tricky .
Industrial Designer: I guess I have to change the pen otherwise . Will be completely different .
Marketing: Dunno . Maybe they're supposed {disfmarker} the pen's supposed to go over the seats . Might be seat floor rather than person . Yeah , put it back .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . And do you think {vocalsound} it's {gap} .
Marketing: Yep {vocalsound} . Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: Jo's making faces at me . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So . Matthew is uh late again .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Probably an important man . Um . So well it is important for him to be here uh .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: He he he {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So what can you {disfmarker} {gap} ?
Project Manager: You did work together didn't you ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah we will {disfmarker} yeah , so I will be able to to summarize uh our meeting ,
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: but still I think uh it would be in very important if the uh as um main designer . I think we can put on the {gap} here .
Project Manager: Yes . Yes .
Industrial Designer: Uh basically w yeah we we designed the two uh items .
Project Manager: Mm . Um yes
Industrial Designer: Um , can we have a phone ,
Project Manager: but w we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: can someone {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes , maybe we should phone him . Um well {disfmarker} Um ,
Industrial Designer: it's really w well designed {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Mm . Mm , object tracking . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: when he is not here we will just we just have to continue . Um so just for record I I will take uh notes again .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: And um well {vocalsound} first thing uh I was uh uh I got an email from uh from my superior again that we really should stay within the budget of the uh twelve Euro and fifty cents .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Project Manager: when you stay in it's good , when you don't stay in you have to redesign . There is no {vocalsound} uh no negotiation uh {vocalsound} possible in this matter . So we have to consider that . {vocalsound} Good .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: Um so maybe Anna , you can have your presentation .
Marketing: Well we can't {disfmarker} no {disfmarker} we can't do evaluation 'til we have a design .
Project Manager: Okay Matthew . Nice uh you are here .
Industrial Designer: Great .
Project Manager: Great . Great . Oh ma maybe then you can start now with mm presenting your uh your designs .
Industrial Designer: Yep . So I will start by the the basic one that uh fits into uh eight Euros actually , right , seven eight Euros ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and uh well first for both they have um a special shape , maybe the designer can uh explain better than me , but uh it's like a surf board .
Marketing: Mm 'kay .
Industrial Designer: And you you are supposed to surf to browse to surf T_V_ , maybe the web , and uh it's kind of interesting shape because um unconsciously people want to s to surf {vocalsound} when they see this stuff .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Or browse .
Industrial Designer: And also it's not too far from um a mobile .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: So people are used to that kind of shape ,
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: right . Don't take care too much about the colour because w yeah we don't take {disfmarker}
User Interface: Now we are supposed to give some oper offers right now .
Industrial Designer: yeah . So here would be basically the the the infrared uh uh led
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Eye .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah L_A_ L_A_ L_E_D_ ,
User Interface: L_E_D_ .
Industrial Designer: the on-off button , in red .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Here would be the volume . On the on the left ,
Marketing: Oh yeah .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: okay , so {gap}
User Interface: Mm-hmm , hmm .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: easy to turn on t and off . And um so this is a very cheap version so there are {disfmarker} maybe you can carry on uh Matthew .
User Interface: Also {vocalsound} so you have uh uh browsing the channels , actually
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: so you can go up and down the channels ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: uh , if you have a video or something you can forward , back .
Industrial Designer: How can you change from V_C_R_ to uh T_V_ , by the way ?
User Interface: Oh {gap} no no no , this is a single {disfmarker} this this is a model with just the T_V_ one .
Industrial Designer: Okay yeah . Yeah yeah .
Project Manager: Ah , okay .
User Interface: No no just sorry , this is a standard T_V_ one , we are not talking about that . So and then we have usually there twelve keys but we know that we rel that we have only ten digits .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: The extra two are for uh having or giving an option for uh having more than one channel . And the other one is for the teletext or something you want to browse through from that . Actually .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay so
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: it's it's t a very basic remote then , it's only {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's a very basic minimal thing
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: which you can {disfmarker} which is which is also available in the market , actually that's what it {gap} {disfmarker} that it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and would cost us to build it about eight Euros .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Seven , eight , ei eight Euros .
Project Manager: Exce except for the for the special shape , the surfing board , it has a quite a a conventional layout of buttons uh .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: So this one model
Marketing: Can I see ?
User Interface: and uh {disfmarker} yeah . Sure .
Marketing: Thanks . Okay I like the volume control , that's good .
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Th {vocalsound} this is a magic one but I know we don't want to talk about that ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: you know like {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: uh i i i it is a very futuristic , it's like uh it's like a brain machine interface and all this stuff we are thinking about in the future , it can come .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So it doesn't actually have buttons .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So that uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} then what we look t
Marketing: Did you wanna see ?
User Interface: yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Yeah no you can carry on ,
User Interface: This is a model ,
Project Manager: I just look how it feels all .
User Interface: yeah .
Project Manager: Yes it really feels like like like a mobile phone .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: Just I'm {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah actually , yeah .
Project Manager: I really want to talk to it .
Marketing: {vocalsound} It won't talk back . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So but but continue with your uh
User Interface: Uh so well
Project Manager: mm-hmm .
User Interface: then the this is the {vocalsound} a more a little uh smooth
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: and it gives a lot of functionality , uh in this way , so all we have uh th you see there are only six keys , but don't worry they are ma they are doing the job of twelve keys actually here .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: And so they have more space actually
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and uh it's easy to uh use this and uh you have um so this is a standard uh {gap} uh infrared eye , and then you have a power button , which l volume , what you have ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and then other than that you have uh channel up and down and uh f slow pause or s slow lo
Industrial Designer: Play , pause .
User Interface: yeah s pause or stop , and uh then uh you can uh you have a L_C_D_ display , here
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and uh y this is a functional thing which can change like it's a toggle switch which could change the function say , y you press it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: From D_V_D_ player to television or something .
Industrial Designer: Exactly yeah . To audio and to video on demand .
User Interface: Yeah . I really can change it ,
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Instead of having many switches , y {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yes and and and then you get feedback via the L_C_D_ yeah .
User Interface: The L_C_D_ can display what is that on that ,
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and uh well you can have a integrated microphone over here ,
Industrial Designer: This is the orange button , the {vocalsound} microphone .
User Interface: or in the button th here ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: so which can uh basically you want to do a speech recognition and uh that channel a lot of information can be di displayed here directly on the um on your on your display .
Industrial Designer: An yeah .
User Interface: And here is a small L_E_D_ which is like blinking one ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: which tells you like uh are you running out of the battery , and which is can be useful for the locating as I was talking earlier
Project Manager: Mm-hmm {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: okay . And uh well then we have a cover basically , basically you don't need much of the time this ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} when you need you can use it , and this gives additional functionality that tomorrow you want you can add a tactile thing to this cover
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Crazy dis designer ,
User Interface: you know .
Industrial Designer: okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Design enter {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: but but but but uh i in there uh when this is closed , will it also uh cover up the L_C_D_ screen ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . It's basically to do that .
Project Manager: But but the L_C_D_ screen I mean is a very uh well an eye-attracting feature
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: which shouldn't be shouldn't be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Actually when you are watching the T_V_ , {vocalsound} when you are watching anything or listening to them , you hardly care about what is getting displayed here ,
Industrial Designer: Oh actually {disfmarker} well .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That th that's true .
User Interface: you know , uh you want to uh {disfmarker} and this gives a protection to the L_C_D_ actually , giving a cover to that actually . Gives a protection
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: because when it falls down or something it it is it is is is it gives a protec
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Yes . Yes , more robust .
User Interface: it's more robust that way . Uh yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Yes okay .
User Interface: And you have very good chances {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's low weight . You have to see yeah yeah the the components we put inside is very low weight .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So the the cost is actually a bit more , it's uh {vocalsound} it's it's sixteen Francs .
User Interface: It {disfmarker} Sixteen Euros .
Project Manager: {gap} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Sixteen Euros sorry .
Marketing: So it's well outside the budget then .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Then it's out of budget .
Project Manager: But w
Industrial Designer: But the the main point we we talk about that with our uh manufacturer . And they say basically that the S_R_ system would be uh something like three Francs per item {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so
User Interface: Three Euros .
Industrial Designer: three Euros sorry . And um {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's on top of the sixteen , or is it part of that ?
Industrial Designer: No no no , part of that , yeah .
User Interface: Part of that {gap} .
Marketing: So that takes it down to thirteen Euros without the speech recognition .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm 'kay . Hmm . {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Well uh if you {disfmarker} we can have {disfmarker} if you have new more ideas we can add new more uh some more keys if you want to you know {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Well I think th th yeah we should {vocalsound} stick with uh a number of keys
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: because if we add too much then
User Interface: Yeah
Project Manager: Mm-hmm {gap} .
Industrial Designer: it's too {disfmarker}
User Interface: it it should not be cluttering up everything .
Marketing: What's this one on the side ?
User Interface: Ah that's for the {disfmarker} it's kind of a L_E_D_ for indicating your battery
Industrial Designer: Locati . Location .
Marketing: Ah okay .
User Interface: and as well as it's like a blinking one
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm 'kay .
User Interface: you know
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: you can keep it aside .
Marketing: I like the shape of them , I do like the the size and the the shape .
Project Manager: Well well {disfmarker} Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Be before ta talking about the money and what's possible and what is not possible , maybe Anna you can uh give our uh give us your um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Okay . And maybe we run the evaluation on both of the products , both of these two .
Project Manager: Yes . Evalua evaluation and also the evaluation criteria , so what what is important to look at .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} Basically this is what we've talked about already , um , from the marketing point of view .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: We just wanna make sure that we've taken into account {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: just do it quickly if if we al already {gap} .
Marketing: So it's just a shortlist of criteria on um the things that we've identified as being important to selling the product .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um we just go through these and rate them as a group and then at the end we'll make an evaluation based on that , so just average the score of those items , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} These are the things we identified as being important . Um {gap} the three things were look and feel , innovation and ease of use , were the three important components
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: um appealing to the correct demographic so using those things in the right way to appeal to our demographic . And then goin following the company motto , following the fashion trends and putting that into the product as well . So well do you wanna go through and put through those on the the two products now or do we wanna discuss them further and then evaluate them ?
Project Manager: Um , n no why not why not discuss uh discuss it now , {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . So f just go through onto the whiteboard I guess . Not sure how this is gonna come out . So the first one was really {vocalsound} very far below budget , would you want to take the price down of the end product according to that or just have the high profit on it ? 'Cause if we're only going to make it for eight Euros then we have a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm , well my my personal view is uh w when when this one is eight Euros we must think how can we improve it .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And then {disfmarker} I mean w w w you must just see it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we can still spend this four and a half Euro
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yep .
Project Manager: and to r because th th th the the selling price is already prite fik uh uh quite fixed on twenty five Euros
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: so we just have to offer as much as as {disfmarker} well value for the for the customer uh he can have for twenty five Euro .
Industrial Designer: Functionality .
Marketing: Okay so look and feel , innovation {disfmarker} {gap}
User Interface: And now it {gap} easy to use .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Easy to use .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {gap} target .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . And trends . Oh , you following the idea of using the um removable covers on these ? Is that part of both of them or ?
Project Manager: Um well w w we can still discuss that .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: So um , and together with evaluating this uh we we might come with new ideas
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: I mean adding things or uh removing uh of options because they are too expensive ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: but um I've received uh a framework which we can do this . I mean did you have this this Excel sheet ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: No .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: No okay , this is these are the the the latest prices of our production uh uh production unit for several components ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so we can uh see whether the the price is is within the twelve Euro uh fifty cents uh .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Okay .
Project Manager: So maybe we can start with this , uh , calling this one . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . Yep . So it's the pink .
Project Manager: Th th this is the first design .
Marketing: And the other one's green . Okay , so
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: look and feel ? Where um one is {vocalsound} I've broken the pen again . S
Project Manager: Uh there is another pen .
Marketing: yeah . Get that one . Um w {vocalsound} one's bad and seven's the best . Sorry , one's true and seven's false . One's the best .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So on a scale of one to seven ?
Project Manager: 'Kay . Okay . So . Look and feel . Well you already feel that uh pretty much I think {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap}
Project Manager: In i in my opinion purely feel is is is very good , is very good in your hand ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm , yeah . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: so I I I would consider two or or may maybe even one for feel .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: But that's just half , we should also consider look ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and then i it looks quite conventional .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Don't you agree ?
User Interface: Mm yeah .
Marketing: On the scale u it's between functional and fancy basically we're looking at ,
Project Manager: So maybe two . Hmm . Hmm . Ma ma ma ma maybe say say five
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} It's my opinion , but I don't know what what
User Interface: Well I will give it maybe {disfmarker} we have anyways {disfmarker} the way we have designed it's like the surf as you say {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: you know . It {disfmarker} though the look is fine but uh still I will give four in that case
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Four maybe .
User Interface: you know .
Marketing: Four ? Okay .
Project Manager: Four , four .
User Interface: Four yeah
Project Manager: Now we th th
User Interface: that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: then we settle on four .
User Interface: Yeah . I will gi yeah .
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: 'Kay . Can you maybe fix the other {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh . Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: If you press like this not like this {gap} then you {disfmarker}
Marketing: No that's the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: No .
Marketing: ink's dried .
User Interface: C can you get the batteries ? No no the battery has fallen down ,
Marketing: Battery's low , isn't it the ink ?
User Interface: that's i
Marketing: The b that's the that that one ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {gap} battery there .
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: No no it's not that , it's how to close a battery .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Okay ? Now it should be {gap} .
Marketing: Mm . No I think it's lost a battery .
Project Manager: Mm , try it , just try it .
Marketing: No it's {disfmarker} It would still write
Project Manager: Oh it will not
Marketing: but it wouldn't pick it up with the sensors .
Project Manager: ri mm , mm .
User Interface: Is there another battery there ? Oh yeah .
Marketing: You got a second ?
Industrial Designer: Try a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well we won't be able to tell .
Project Manager: Yes , it it has a {disfmarker} mm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Perfect .
Marketing: Is that working ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Did it come out ? Good . Okay .
Project Manager: Good . Good .
Marketing: Because we'll be able to see it still even if it wasn't working , it's just a normal whiteboard marker
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: but it wouldn't be picked up on the the actual whiteboard .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: Okay . So then then {disfmarker}
Marketing: And the other one ?
Industrial Designer: Wow .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think it's slightly better , um ,
Project Manager: Ah . Mm .
Marketing: it's hard to tell from just the plasticine ,
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Marketing: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: When we want to include {disfmarker} I I I'm doubting about this this component .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: It it it it breaks in your {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: 'Kay
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: maybe {disfmarker}
User Interface: No actually this is this is not going to protrude actually ,
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: it it's n i it is jus
Industrial Designer: It's not a button it's a led , it's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's a led actually which which 'll be covering in a curve {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ac actually yeah it should be embedded .
Project Manager: Mm , yes I see , mm okay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
User Interface: It's {disfmarker} will be embedded there
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Oh
User Interface: so it won't be really you know protruding or something .
Industrial Designer: you can push push it again , you can push it .
Marketing: Yeah . The other thing is , is the left hand one protruding ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: 'Cause if people are left handed they want to use the other hand ,
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: maybe it won't work so well .
User Interface: No you {disfmarker} it it not protruding actually , it will go in better into that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Well r r
Marketing: I'd say two or three for that one , personally .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Probably more towards three than two .
Project Manager: I think the look is better
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but the feel is is is worse . So so {vocalsound} I would also say this is four .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: But w w do you {disfmarker} what do you think ?
User Interface: Uh it's fine I think . My {disfmarker} just that um the feel is that um you {disfmarker} right now you you don't see the feel because right uh for example if you press it quite inside now like this , now it's embedded one .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm . Mm . Yes .
User Interface: This is how embedded one will {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes , it basically is the same shape .
User Interface: Yeah . It's a bas basically the same thing actually .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm .
User Interface: You will be {disfmarker} Except that in this c
Industrial Designer: And the L_C_D_ makes it better . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: And {vocalsound} you might have a slight thing for to forward and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm , okay . Yeah
Industrial Designer: So I will say two .
Marketing: it's d it's definitely more fancier than that one .
Project Manager: Yes , okay {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: I would say two , three .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So , consensus ? Two or three ?
Project Manager: Two ?
Marketing: Two ?
Project Manager: Mm . Two's good
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: yes .
User Interface: {gap} looking like {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um , 'kay . Innovation . The first one , not really muc
Industrial Designer: Basically there is no innovation in the first one compared to what exists in the market ,
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: right ?
Marketing: Do we {disfmarker}
User Interface: No but except for the design of the surf {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . The surf uh design {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: What {disfmarker} What features are we actually including ?
User Interface: You should be rea {vocalsound}
Marketing: Are we including like a location kind of thing like trying to find it ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh no
Marketing: There's nothing like that ?
User Interface: I think it's more of the feel .
Marketing: But th is there any there's no actual innovation in that at all , it's just a straight-out remote control .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: The only innova innovation is the shape .
Industrial Designer: Yeah {gap} .
User Interface: Say about that .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: S so that {disfmarker}
Marketing: So there's no {disfmarker} this uh look and feel thing , though that's not a technological innovation .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . You're right {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So I'd be up for seven for innovation .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . And the {disfmarker} And the second one is really uh state of the art , uh in terms of innovation .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: And um with many more functionalities , and can open and close the the bottom part .
User Interface: Yeah , it gives it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes . A and the L_C_D_ screen is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: That's that's that's well it's quite innovative .
Industrial Designer: And all the scrolling uh buttons and menu and pro programmable device behind this .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Uh could put it at one or two I would say . Personally .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah . Mm . Mm . Mm . Mm .
User Interface: Yep .
Marketing: So what is it , what are the innovations with this ? Got the L_C_D_ screen .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} Yeah automatic speech recognition .
Marketing: Is that in this one though ? Is this {disfmarker} 'cause this is the {disfmarker} Th th there were different options we discussed then ,
User Interface: No , we ha
Marketing: we discussed the one that was in budget and the one that was out of budget .
Project Manager: We just diske discuss it as you designed it
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: and then we will will try to get it in the budget .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So the cost for these were {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: what was the cost for the first one ? Eight Euros ?
Project Manager: Eight .
Industrial Designer: Eight . Well actually we have yeah to check again yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , eight Euros yeah .
Marketing: And this one was sixteen Euros .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Sixteen .
User Interface: Sixteen Euros .
Marketing: Okay . So . Innovation for this one is two ? One ?
User Interface: It's a two , I would say two {gap} .
Marketing: Two ?
Project Manager: Two .
Industrial Designer: W W un to be one what would do we nee actually , yeah , I don't see {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Why it is one .
Industrial Designer: okay , one would would be without buttons , {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: A man {disfmarker} w w
Marketing: Mm . Well
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: the speech recognition is a very good innovation I believe it ,
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Bu
Marketing: so {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So maybe we can put one .
Project Manager: This this is it w with the speech recognition ?
Industrial Designer: It's using speech recognition , yeah .
Project Manager: Well .
User Interface: Okay yeah .
Project Manager: Gi given that {vocalsound} that it works ,
Marketing: Give it a one ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , one , yeah .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} then it's I think one .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: Ease of use ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So the first one is really standard ,
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: so everybody i including our grandmothers can use it ,
User Interface: He is used to it act
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: right ?
User Interface: They are used to it actually .
Marketing: Yep . So that's maybe a a two for ease of use .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Here there may {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um , the other one is quite easy , tho though .
User Interface: Uh , though it has more functionality I think it shouldn't be for the user to learn it actually . It shouldn't be diffi
Marketing: Okay . So maybe a three or a four .
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: Uh yeah , actually in fact I think it will be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: One me um we hope {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: maybe sometimes people get uh scared with the number of buttons .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah but {vocalsound} y
Industrial Designer: And there is a {disfmarker} like I would say three . Or maybe four {gap} .
Marketing: Okay . Consensus ? Three or four ?
User Interface: Well we have reduced the keys actually you see .
Project Manager: Three , I would . Three .
Marketing: Three ? Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah
User Interface: Three is fine with me .
Industrial Designer: because it's n uh it's not like a big one with uh one hundred buttons or so , {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah it's a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: actually the user has to put some effort to do {disfmarker} use that actually ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: it's not so easy , like this one the normal .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yes but then when when he is used to it , i i it is quite easy .
User Interface: Is quite easy yeah .
Project Manager: So so I think th three is good . Yeah .
User Interface: Initially there there is a lot of effort , yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Good .
Marketing: So three's
Project Manager: What's the next ?
Marketing: uh how well it goes to the target demographic . So we're d we're still thinking twenty to forty year olds ?
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Twe twenty to forty , yes that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: This one would be uh for grandmothers {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh no , this would I
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: I would I would give this model to the old people actually .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , grandmothers , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So sh completely changed our demographic there ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And {disfmarker}
Marketing: it's not part of the the funky young thing .
Project Manager: Well exce except for the surfing shape . I mean that's that's something which which has an appeal on this group I think ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah that's true . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . If it was the very bottom price range or it was like between this and another one we did the same thing then I can imagine it being {disfmarker} applying to the the demographic
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: yeah . That's {disfmarker} it's still {disfmarker} Ye
Project Manager: Mm w w w we {disfmarker} after this we can can consider uh for instance , making this more attractive to to the demographic
Marketing: Mm . 'Cause we have got room , we've got some budget there to add a few things to it ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: that's right .
Project Manager: But as it is now , I w would say mm , six , something .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Oh yeah , {gap} .
Marketing: And {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you agree ?
User Interface: I {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah because it's so important {disfmarker} it's i it was written that it really so important , the um the the look and uh taking care of its {disfmarker} it targets , the right range of people ,
User Interface: Well I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: right ?
User Interface: Yeah . Uh yeah but but if you sell it in the market it's going to be cheap , actually .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: But it's going to be cheap whatever though ,
Industrial Designer: But w
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: it was set with i we've got a set price .
User Interface: And people can still decide to use the cheaper one
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: instead of a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But for us it's {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound} we have a constraint that we need to sell at twenty five Euros .
Project Manager: Mm , yeah , indeed .
Marketing: Yeah . There's nothing that would make me spend an extra k few Euros on that one rather than another one .
Industrial Designer: {gap} Yeah .
Project Manager: Ju just think , twenty five Euros , I mean it's not going to be cheaper .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay . So in that case well it's fine then .
Marketing: Okay . Um
Project Manager: Mm . Mm . Okay .
User Interface: We can {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: and the demokraphi demographic of the second one ?
User Interface: And the demographics of {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's got the got the the toys in it , it's got the L_C_D_ screen
Project Manager: Yeah tha tha tha tha tha that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it's better ,
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: because of the L_C_D_ screen which is really an appeal on the on the on the
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: on the {gap} and on the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . And if you want to target {disfmarker} yeah if we we wish to to sell four millions of this , I think for this audience we need absolutely the L_C_D_ screen .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm . So , the L_C_D_ screen uh attracts ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: yes .
Marketing: I think especially if we're gonna n have an L_C_D_ screen on a low range product then that's good .
Project Manager: Because it {disfmarker} Mm , ma maybe that's something to consider , yes {vocalsound} ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm . Okay .
Project Manager: so . Wh what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker}
Marketing: I'd probably go with three again for that one .
User Interface: Yeah I think it's uh {disfmarker} it has more market actually .
Industrial Designer: Or even {disfmarker} Even one and two . Or two .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: No s say t two .
User Interface: Y yeah , you know {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . So , two , yeah ?
User Interface: two .
Project Manager: Two ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Two yeah .
User Interface: Yeah two yeah . Because tomorrow this will be more appealing because you can add {vocalsound} lot of sophistication on that .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Because then you you have it uh d you have lot of things which you can include
Marketing: Yeah . Yep . And especially I guess 'cause this has the speech recognition as well ,
User Interface: for the people to {disfmarker}
Marketing: and that makes it more appealing , it's more of a a new fun toy .
User Interface: We have to practically test it .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: The field test will tell you how good . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay , the final point , trends .
Marketing: And following the trends .
User Interface: The trends .
Marketing: So the trends were the fruit and vegetables and the spongy feel .
Project Manager: Mm . Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: So as it is , not really doing either of them .
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Spongy , uh , that means that it goes in in the water . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: the spongy could be part of the the feel of the buttons as well ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: I know some {disfmarker} have you tried the mobile phones that have got the kinda spongy buttons and {disfmarker} not not exactly spongy but I'm thinking one of the Nokias that's got like you ca it hasn't got individual buttons
Industrial Designer: Uh okay .
Marketing: it's got just a one bit on it
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah I know .
Marketing: and so you can {disfmarker} that feels kinda spongy .
Industrial Designer: But this one includes this feature , right ? Spongy buttons .
Marketing: So it's sort of , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . We we we we we yeah , it's the way they are going to be , actually .
Marketing: Mm . Okay .
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} Uh
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: the maybe in the colour we can make it uh fruit and and veggie .
Marketing: But that's if you're using the covers .
Project Manager: And the then we can al
Marketing: Or is it just one {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: yes . We can {disfmarker} we can consider uh uh is it possible do you think , to to make a cover for s such a phone ? I mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well they make it for mobiles , it can't be that much more complicated .
User Interface: But why do you want to cover that actually ? In that uh w in the mod
Project Manager: Well just with the with the flexible plastic uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: So you got the option of having different colours or different textures .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . This is possible .
Project Manager: I th I th I think {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh uh y are you sure ? Yeah I think yeah it should be possible like what we do with the mobile phone , yeah .
Project Manager: O o or just two things which can be put on each other .
Marketing: Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah exactly like Nokia phones {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes , exactly like it .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: Uh , so Maybe we can {vocalsound} but we have to decide it , we can put the the {vocalsound} the fancy f look of vegetables for instance , to to these covers
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and s now try to invest in the in in the features .
Marketing: I think the {disfmarker} if we do the cover that's really going with the company's philosophy of having the fashion in in electronics , it lets people have the latest fashion
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: even next year when fruit and vegetables might be out , you'll still be able to put a new cover on it and then it'll still be in fashion .
Project Manager: Mm mm mm mm mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . 'Cause sometimes look at this computer , th this laptop , it's all black ,
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: and uh it's quite conventional , and sometimes people don't like too much flashy colours like this one presented here .
Marketing: Mm . Mm .
Industrial Designer: So maybe we could do like in the range the set of what we propose a black one , very standard one , that meets the the requirements of th such people that want really standard uh things .
Marketing: Mm . Yep .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yep . Mm .
Project Manager: Mm . Mm .
Marketing: And then you have the option of having the different colours , different covers .
Project Manager: Yes . So so so that that would make the trends equal ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: so we we we really have {disfmarker} don't have ,
Marketing: Mm . There's n yeah . 'Cause that's the that's the feature that could be included in either of them .
Project Manager: I mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: Although it is more with the spongy buttons on the um on the other one .
Project Manager: Yes , indeed .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , so a a point better for the for the number two {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Okay . So . Two and three , or one and two ?
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: Yeah , it's one .
Project Manager: Say , say one and two . One and two .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: So le le let's see . So d
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: this one has spongy but buttons ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , the blue one uh spongy .
User Interface: Yeah , it says a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm , I see , yes okay . Good .
Marketing: Okay so the average of that is three six nine divided by five , so five {disfmarker} mm nine by five , one point s eight ?
Project Manager: Just add it .
Industrial Designer: Nine .
Project Manager: You know . Three , six , seven .
User Interface: One point six , one point {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: One point eight yeah .
Marketing: This one , eleven thirteen nineteen twenty one , divided by five is four point two
User Interface: Four point {disfmarker} Uh four point two .
Marketing: yep .
Industrial Designer: Very good .
Marketing: Okay . But we still got a very different price for those two so they're not really comparable yet anyway .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . We {disfmarker} we must try to get them closer .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's right , yeah that's right .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yep .
Project Manager: Both in i i
User Interface: Wow .
Project Manager: or we just have to choose . And adapt .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: Because , when we choose for this one we have to {vocalsound} we have to make it more attractive
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and w when we {gap} to d for this one we have to make it more cheap .
Marketing: Well it's easier to just make that one cheaper by just taking the speech recognition out .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: That'll basically take us down to the budget .
Project Manager: But I'm {vocalsound} now {disfmarker} did y did you work with the same prices that I have here ?
Industrial Designer: So I I give yeah I just give a call with the manufacturer uh and uh I explained them and they told me this could be possible for sixteen Fr Euros .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Uh unfortunately we didn't see this chip , uh Matthew ,
User Interface: Yeah . Yep .
Project Manager: Mm , tha
Industrial Designer: so maybe we have to recap with this one .
User Interface: Maybe we ought to reconsider everything with this , yeah .
Project Manager: Well yes , well uh re reconsider it . So {vocalsound} let's let's try to to model this this phone in this sheet ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: uh what kind of energy source uh I I {disfmarker} we didn't speak about that . It's a {disfmarker} it's a normal battery , or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , it migh It {disfmarker} it'll need uh more than a conventional one , it won't be uh just {disfmarker} maybe you might use a A_A_ battery actually . What do you say , Mael ?
Industrial Designer: For this one it's a normal battery {gap} .
Project Manager: Yes . Just so one battery . 'Kay . Electronics . {gap} given speech recognition I think w you should go for the less fancy chip .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh sample speaker , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , yes , or sample sensor , yes .
Industrial Designer: Sample , yeah , this one .
Project Manager: Yes , this one . Okay . Case ? Um ,
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Curved . Double curved yeah right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I see {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I
User Interface: It's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Double curve .
Marketing: Yeah , it's gonna be more than just the biggest case , definitely .
Project Manager: {gap} Mm .
Industrial Designer: So which one are we talking to ?
User Interface: Are you talking about this or that ?
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Either of them .
Project Manager: Oh yes , we are talking about , but they have the same shape ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm . They're both going to be not basic cases .
Project Manager: but , actually bu
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So th th this would be double curves ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: 'Kay . Uh , plastic would be the material .
Marketing: Yeah . The basic one , yep .
Industrial Designer: Is it zero Franc ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: A special colour ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh special colour , now we leave it to the covers .
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: So now we're either going button or L_C_D_s , L_C_D_ display .
Project Manager: Push . Mm , yes , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: L_C_D_ is {gap} . It's okay . Just say L_C_D_ {gap} .
Marketing: Is that price per unit , or for the whole thing ?
Project Manager: Yeah th now this is per per unit , this number of components .
User Interface: Ah good .
Marketing: So it would need twelve buttons .
User Interface: Yeah , we might need a scroll wheel , right , for that ?
Industrial Designer: No but for this one it's twelve Euro .
User Interface: No , for that one also .
Industrial Designer: There are twelve ?
Project Manager: So , one , two , three , four , five , six , seven , eight , nine ,
User Interface: Yeah that's a scroll .
Project Manager: t Yes . Twelve I believe . So this comes to eighteen .
Marketing: Mm . And that's without any special button supplements .
User Interface: Yeah , one scroll wheel you might need .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: So we'd have a special colour , special form and special material on all of them . They're not just standard buttons .
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So I think {disfmarker} but th do you agree th that thi
Industrial Designer: Wait a minute , it's not it's not double curved , it's single curved , right ? Because it's {disfmarker} there is no like {vocalsound} .
Marketing: But I thought it would be curved on two {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes I
Marketing: it's like it's curved on the sides and curved on the top and bottom as well , that's what I thought .
Project Manager: Yes I'm I'm no I'm no I'm not sh sure .
Industrial Designer: Well
Project Manager: Yes I kno undes I understand what you mean , yes .
Industrial Designer: it's {gap} you know this curve like this so , it's w there is only is is is there is nothing like y you know in the other stuff there are {disfmarker}
Marketing: You talking about concave curves ?
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: yeah concave .
Project Manager: Both .
Industrial Designer: So I think we can put um {disfmarker}
Marketing: You think a single curved ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} the single curved in the sixteen . That makes uh seventeen . And what are just {disfmarker} The bt buttons , we have twelve buttons , are you sure ? Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Yes . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: We have more , we've got those {disfmarker} the scroll wheel on the side
Industrial Designer: So
Marketing: and yeah {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I had a bad uh bad estimation .
User Interface: Bad estimate ,
Marketing: The sc
Project Manager: W {vocalsound} d {vocalsound}
User Interface: right ?
Project Manager: we have {disfmarker} we haven't talk about a {gap} , but that's no a {gap} is very exp inexpensive I believe
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: but it is not in the list .
Marketing: We've got a scroll wheel for the volume don't we , or is it some other thing that's not on there .
Project Manager: W ho h is this a scroll wheel or is this a a a sort of button which can be pressed on two sides uh so for higher and lower ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No no no .
Marketing: 'Kay we've only got five minutes left guys so we need to wrap it up pretty fast .
Industrial Designer: Yes , a kind of scroll wheel .
Marketing: So this is even more than the um than the cost you gave , the sixteen Euros .
Project Manager: Mm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Okay ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so based on that , yeah , um where is the es okay sample speaker {disfmarker}
User Interface: That is the sample sensor and sample speaker .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But still , yeah it {gap}
User Interface: We just need that actually . We need one .
Project Manager: We're {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} We could go for the for the for the for the for a simple chip , but then we can't have the the speech recognition , yes ? Yes ?
Industrial Designer: No we cannot , yeah .
Project Manager: So so w when we w a
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: S
Project Manager: this would this would be cutting the speech recognition .
Industrial Designer: But the um {disfmarker} Yeah but if you have the {disfmarker} near the L_C_D_ you can um {vocalsound} choose {disfmarker} select between um you know like uni universal between audio , T_V_ and V_C_R_ , and this needs a needs a advanced chip .
Project Manager: Transti
Industrial Designer: Right , Matthew ?
User Interface: Oh I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Or regular chip ?
User Interface: I think it's going to be {disfmarker} y y
Industrial Designer: I think yeah regular , today we you can do that with regular chip .
User Interface: yeah it's th with the regular chip , yeah .
Project Manager: Say {gap} say it's regular , regular chip ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Okay . Okay .
Project Manager: and we still on fifteen ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So . And what about the number of buttons buttons uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} my Matthew ?
Project Manager: Yes but that {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} Well we can just say
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: one .
Industrial Designer: When you look at this w , this u uh item , {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Ca l we are just {disfmarker} when we just want to uh to cut the number of buttons we have to make seven to to fit in in twelve twelve fifty .
Industrial Designer: But {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So is it possible ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} But that's seven basic buttons right , seven buttons without any adds-on , without special colours or form or material .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: That'll be {disfmarker} then we have uh have to ask the user to press it several times .
Industrial Designer: You cannot make a phone to your boss saying twelve fifty is really {vocalsound} really low ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No no ,
Marketing: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: he he he I I
Industrial Designer: no ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {gap} the L_C_D_ display is is three Francs , sorry three Euros , by itself .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And uh we don't want to to change that right ? We we really want a L_C_D_
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: other otherwise we w wouldn not get the market .
Project Manager: Otherwise y you ha you have a s ve very normal uh thing like this .
Industrial Designer: It's evident .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So twelve Euro fifty , we got two off of the battery ,
Industrial Designer: And I dunno {disfmarker}
Marketing: we can't do anything about that , so ten fifty , if we want an L_C_D_ dispra display , that's seven fifty um , so we've got seven fifty to use for the case and for the buttons . And the chip .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Sorry the chip's up there already .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
Marketing: So we're gonna have to scale this down to get within budget , there's no doubt about that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} A
Industrial Designer: So wha what what each of us think about the {disfmarker} because it's measure point the L_C_D_ , um {disfmarker} Do you think it's important ?
User Interface: Or we could even replace them by buttons actually .
Industrial Designer: Because sometimes whe when you watch the T_V_ in fact , you have a big display and maybe you don't need one more in your hands ? I dunno , I'm just asking .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm {disfmarker}
User Interface: A actually it depends , it depends what kind of functionalities you want to add into it ,
Marketing: Yep .
User Interface: for example if you add two more functionalities then better you add two more buttons , or {disfmarker} and you'll have L_C_D_ display which is {disfmarker} that is going to bring the cost by two two Euros at least .
Marketing: Mm . Yeah . I think , unless we can really drive these prices down we need to get rid of the L_C_D_ display .
User Interface: Okay so we can get rid of it
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's true yeah .
User Interface: and then add a couple of buttons .
Industrial Designer: But uh , do we want that ? On the market point of view , yeah . What do you think uh , L_C_D_ is a major feature , or ?
Project Manager: Mm . I
Marketing: For the price , it's gonna be what we can afford , and it's looking like we can't afford the L_C_D_ display , there's no way we can get it in there . {vocalsound} Mm .
Project Manager: I {gap} think we have to come to a decision now , just I I think we we what we just do i is vote about the uh the L_C_D_ uh display
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You assume , you want a democratic voyt vote ,
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: right ? Okay .
Project Manager: Yes . Yes . {vocalsound} One man one vote .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} S so who thinks the the L_C_D_ disply display should be i should be in it ?
Marketing: I th I'd like t it to be in but I can't see it happening . I can't see it fitting in .
Project Manager: Mm . Mm-hmm mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We need to be . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Bu y you're a power voter {disfmarker} uh veto anyway as Project Manager .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , I know , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah but the only thing is that what is the multiple functionalities you want to include with that .
Marketing: {gap} well we have to make a decision now , that's it .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So uh uh having an L_C_D_ s display is just uh uh have very very limited amount of buttons . Is that acceptable ? Ca can I have {disfmarker} can the functions be implement in an {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: You've {disfmarker} you you agree .
User Interface: W I I I just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So hav hav having seven buttons , instead of twelve .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So that wou would be cutting cutting suh say about these buttons {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Because one yeah th show me that uh actually we could in fact we move these three buttons and have three uh possibilities for each of the three here . Here one , at the middle , and at the bottom .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Mm . I think then we we're really losing ease of use .
Industrial Designer: Okay , {gap} .
User Interface: That will create another problem . For the people to use it . It's not going to be easy . Doing that .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Mm . So um
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: I I think we should we should cut the L_C_D_ screen . That that's that's my opinion .
User Interface: No , it's okay , you uh cut the L_C_D_ screen
Project Manager: Just {disfmarker}
User Interface: and introduce two more buttons .
Marketing: Okay . So L_C_D_'s out , is speech rec out now ? We've {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The speech recognition is out . Because of the budget , yeah .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: Uh where , L_C_ {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: Okay w we now we can just uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: So are we basically back to the original one now , back to the first version ? Which turns out to be on budget exactly , pretty much . With these new costings .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: So {gap} just look at {disfmarker} forget that one and look at that one now .
Project Manager: Yes . Yes . I th I th I think w we just go for this one
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: and that that now twelve Euros is the is is the price ,
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: okay .
Marketing: Okay . Well that's that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: My m my supervisor will be glad that it's fifty cents cheaper than he expected .
Marketing: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Actually yeah ,
Marketing: So .
Industrial Designer: we we we will not need the really uh expert designers um because the amount , yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yep . So w we can go back and l talk to the suppliers maybe
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: and see if we can drive the prices down to add a few more things in but that's all we can do with the restrictions we have at the moment .
Project Manager: Okay , good . Then we {gap} the same . Thank you .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: That was it . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Thanks .
User Interface: That's it . Cool .
Marketing: Okay .
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The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call the meeting to order. Welcome to the seventh meeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. We will proceed to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements. That's confirmed. We will now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. Once the petition is presented, the member is asked to bring it here to the Table. Mr.Manly is the first one to be allowed to present a petition.
Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I rise today to present a petition that has many signatures from constituents in NanaimoLadysmith. They're calling for a ban on cosmetic testing using animals. They want us to follow the European Union model, under which the use of animals in cosmetic testing has been banned. Moving forward, they're calling for a ban on the sale and manufacture of animal-tested cosmetics and their ingredients in Canada.
The Chair: Mr. Poilievre is next.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre (Carleton, CPC): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I rise today to table e-petition 2466, initiated by a constituent of mine in Stittsville, a beautiful west Ottawa community. The petition has collected 827 signatures from every province and territory. It was collected by Cara, a mother from my riding who suffered an unthinkable tragedy. Her 11-year-old son Joshua drowned in a boating accident on the St. Lawrence River at Rockport, Ontario. Joshua was not wearing a life jacket. Worse, Cara's family had to wait 48 days to recover Joshua's body. Cara is now working tirelessly to amend the small vessel regulations to make it mandatory for children under the age of 14 to wear a life jacket or PFD while they are passengers in or drivers of small vessels covered under parts 2, 3, and 4 of the regulations. I support Cara's efforts, and I'm honoured to table this petition on her behalf.
The Chair: Seeing no further petitions to be presented, we'll continue, and we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely. Go ahead, Mr. Scheer.
Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition): It was revealed yesterday that this government's policy was to ignore fraud. The Prime Minister's reaction was to act as if everything was normal. In fact, we've learned that over 200,000cases of suspected fraud have been identified in the benefit applications. The Prime Minister is failing our future generations. Our children and grandchildren are going to pay back billions of dollars that he's borrowing to pay tax cheats. Will the Prime Minister protect taxpayers and immediately begin a review of these 200,000cases of suspected fraud?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister): Our priority was to get money out quickly to all Canadians who needed it, and that's exactly what we've done. Millions of Canadians have received the money they so desperately needed. Having said that, I want to make it very clear, Mr.Chair: Fraud is unacceptable. We have measures in place to detect fraud. All fraudsters will be required to pay back the money they fraudulently received from the government. We're going to make sure that this is done in the coming months.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, Conservatives agree that those who need help should get it, and no one is arguing that they shouldn't, but reports indicate that the Liberals have ordered public servants to turn a blind eye to 200,000 cases of suspected fraud. It's a simple question: Yes or no, did the government instruct any government department to ignore red flags or warnings of fraudulent cases?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, the priority in this situation was getting money out to the millions of Canadians who needed it as quickly as possible, but of course fraud is unacceptable. That's why we have put safeguards in place to ensure that anyone who received that money fraudulently will have to repay it.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: It's a yes-or-no question, Mr. Chair. Did the government give any kind of instruction to public servants in any department to ignore red flags or warnings of fraudulent cases, yes or no?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: The instruction to government officials was to get money out to those who needed it as quickly as possible. We have put measures in place to detect fraud. People who got this money fraudulently will have to repay.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, it is clear that he can't answer a yes-or-no question, so we can all assume what the answer must be. In other situations, the government is saying no to people. It's letting so many Canadians down. Small business owners who don't happen to have a CRA payroll number or a business account are ineligible for the government supports. Individuals, owner-operators, and those who are earning $1 more than $1,000 are being told that they don't qualify for the emergency response benefits. Meanwhile, fraudsters are getting them. Does the Prime Minister think it's fair to tell people who are following all the rules no, while telling government officials to allow fraudulent cases to be processed?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, Canadians well know that this is an unprecedented situation, one in which we had to get help to as many Canadians as possible as quickly as possible. That is exactly what we did. We continue to work very hard to fill gaps for people who should get money but haven't been able to, and, as I said, we have strong measures to counter fraud. Anyone who got this money fraudulently will have to repay it.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, when these programs were first designed, the Prime Minister said that he acknowledged that there were problems and that they would be fixed later. Well, here we are in May, and hundreds of thousands of Canadians are being told no for purely technical and bureaucratic reasons. Will the Prime Minister make the simple changes to allow business owners who don't happen to have a business bank account, who don't happen to have a CRA payroll number and individuals who are ineligible for the emergency response benefit because they've been paid by family members through dividends to qualify, or is he going to continue to let hundreds of thousands of Canadians down during this pandemic?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, from the beginning of this pandemic, we moved extremely rapidly to get help and support to millions of Canadians. That was the priority, and that's what we've been doing for the past two months. As we've said, we will continue to tweak and improve the programs to make sure that more people who need help will get it. We are working the best we can, as fast as we can, to help those millions of Canadians who need support.
The Chair: You have time for about a 15-second question, Mr. Scheer.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister indicated that he would support Taiwan's inclusion in the WHO only as a non-state observer. Of course, that designation does not exist. Participants of the WHO are either states or NGOs. Will the Prime Minister support Taiwan's participation as a state observer?
The Chair: The Right Honourable Prime Minister has 15 seconds or less, please.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, we will continue with our one China policy, but we have always advocated Taiwan's meaningful inclusion in international bodies where it makes sense to do so, and that includes at the WHO.
The Chair: Mr.Blanchet now has the floor.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ): Thank you very much, Mr.Chair. On Friday, students in Quebec and Canada will be able to apply for the Canada emergency student benefit, which is a good thing. This program was necessary, particularly because the number of students who won't be able to get back their jobs from last year is much higher than the number of jobs that might be available to these young people. There are also issues of duration. We don't know how long these jobs will remain unavailable. People talked about a risk to being in the labour market and meeting the needs of the labour market. On April29, the Deputy Prime Minister made a formal commitment to ensure that these programs are accompanied by work incentives for youth and all CESB recipients. So that everyone knows what they're getting into, I'd like to know whether the employment incentives that will accompany the Canada emergency response benefit will be known by Friday.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: I thank the hon. member for understanding the importance of supporting students who, for the most part, won't be able to get the summer jobs they were counting on. Young people don't just want to earn money; they also want to gain work experience. That's why we're setting up programs, including Canada summer jobs, but also another program with 76,000new jobs for young people in important sectors, so that young people can also get jobs. We will continue to work with youth and employers to ensure that gaps in the labour market are addressed, while ensuring that youth are well-supported.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: That's very interesting, but it doesn't answer my question at all. People in the fishing, tourism and agricultural sectors, as well as municipalities and, from the very beginning, of course, the Government of Quebec, more generally, have expressed fears that job gains will cause people to lose their benefits and discourage them from going to work. The only way to avoid that is to ensure that people keep more money as they work more. That is the principle. In fact, we propose that over the $1,000no-penalty limit, half of the earnings be exempt from penalty. Is this something that could be considered? Since it's been two weeks since the commitment was made and it's urgent, can we act now? The emergency shouldn't last eight months.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, young people need money, but they also need work experience. This is an unprecedented situation, which is why we're working with seasonal industries and the different regions to make sure they have a sufficient workforce in their situation. Students can be part of it, but at the same time we must provide the necessary support for those who can't find a job. That's why we continue to work with the industries involved to ensure that they have a sufficient workforce while we support students.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Unfortunately, the spirit of it doesn't seem to have been understood. I doubt that, even in the best-case scenario, the government will be able to get all the jobs needed in a timely manner for all these young people to decide to go ahead. So, first of all, there will be a shortage of jobs. Second, people aren't crazy. If they earn less by working than they earn by not working, all the good faith in the world won't solve the problem. Can we make sure that people keep more money in their pockets as they work more? I think we can have a clear answer, given the timeframe. People are going to start registering for the program on Friday. The principles are good, but a clear answer would be good too.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Beginning Friday, students will be able to apply for the Canada emergency student benefit. When they apply, they'll all be directed to a job bank that we've set up to make sure they know what jobs are available to get not only the money they need, but also the experience they need for their future, while helping our society in this crisis. I know we're going to be able to count on young people.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, one of the most devastating outcomes of this COVID-19 crisis has been the impact on seniors. Eighty per cent or more of the deaths during COVID-19 have been seniors living in long-term care homes. The military had to be called in. Out of 14 countries, Canada has been deemed the worst in its care of seniors. Despite all this, the Prime Minister has said recently that he doesn't feel it's the federal government's responsibility to find a solution. How can he say to families reeling with loss that it's not the federal government's responsibility to play a role in solving this problem?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, perhaps the fact that the NDP no longer has many seats in Quebec has caused it to forget the importance of respecting the Constitution and the areas of jurisdiction of provincial versus federal governments. We will be there to work with the provinces as they deal with challenges in their long-term care facilities. We are there as a partner, but we, on this side of the House, will always respect the jurisdiction of the provinces and be there to support them in fulfilling those responsibilities.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Everyone across Canada has just heard this Prime Minister double down on the idea that he doesn't feel it's his responsibility, despite the fact that the Canadian military had to go into long-term care homes. There is a role that the federal government can play. Both Liberal and Conservative federal governments have been consistently, for decades, cutting transfers to health care. They can increase those transfers to ensure long-term care is adequately funded. We could also ensure that there's a national care guarantee, working with provinces to ensure that we are meeting the best standards. We could increase workers' pay. We could ensure that there's no more profiting off the backs of seniors when it comes to long-term care. Will the Prime Minister commit to some of these care guarantees?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: It will come as exactly no surprise to the vast majority of Canadians that the Liberal Party will always stand up for the Constitution of Canada. We respect the Constitution. We respect areas of provincial jurisdiction. As I have said from the very beginning of this crisis, we will be there to help the provinces as they manage the challenges they're facing. The federal government does have a role to play, and it is a role to support the provinces in doing the things they need to do during this unprecedented time. We will continue to be there.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: I am glad to hear the Prime Minister is no longer trying to hide behind jurisdiction. We know that in long-term care homes, the for-profit long-term care homes have been the site of the worst conditions, where the greatest number of seniors have died. Will the Prime Minister join us in committing to remove profit from the long-term care system? Vulnerable seniors should not be subject to the profits of a company willing to cut services, staffing and quality of care instead of ensuring that seniors get the best care possible.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: I think it has become clear for all Canadians that we need to improve the care offered to our seniors right across the country. We cannot look at these numbers we are seeing and these tragedies hitting so many families and not want to see us as a country do better. That is why we of course recognize that we will work with other orders of government, particularly the provinces in whose jurisdiction this area rests primarily, to support answering these questions for the long term on how we improve the way Canada supports our elders. This is something really important that we will be there for.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: At the CHSLD Herron in Dorval, 31seniors died in one month. The residents were left without food, dehydrated and without care, and those with COVID-19 symptoms were not isolated from the others. Families pay between $3,000 and $10,000 a month for their loved ones to be at the centre. How can the Prime Minister think that he doesn't have a role to play in finding a solution to this devastating problem?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, all Quebeckers and even all Canadians were stunned to learn of the tragedy at the Dorval CHSLD. We were very happy, as citizens, when the Government of Quebec reacted firmly and asked many questions in connection with this situation. We will support the Government of Quebec in its efforts to find answers and, most importantly, to ensure that, in the long term, the country will better support seniors in all regions.
The Chair: We'll continue with Mr.Poilievre.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Mr. Chair, how many emergency response benefit cheques have been sent to people whose applications have been flagged as fraudulent?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I'd like to start by quickly saying that a total of 7.7million Canadians have received the Canada emergency response benefit, which is absolutely essential for
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: How many emergency response benefits have been sent out to people whose applications have been flagged as fraudulent?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr.Chair, I see that the pace will allow me to give a little bit of information for each question. As we said at the outset, there will be mechanisms
The Chair: Mr.Poilievre has the floor.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: How many?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: We're working very hard.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: How many?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: We're working very hard to ensure the integrity of the mechanism while at the same time taking important steps to help Canadians.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: How many emergency response benefit cheques have been sent to people whose applications have been flagged as fraudulent?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: A total of 7.7million Canadians have received the Canada emergency response benefit, and the agency is ensuring the integrity of the system.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: He's now claiming that it's all 7.7 million? That's crazy. The department is reported to have given out 200,000. Is 200,000 the correct number of cheques that have been sent out to people whose applications have been red-flagged as fraudulent, yes or no?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr.Chair, I'm pleased to use the opportunity given to me by the hon. member to make the following clarifications. I thank him for it. First, approximately 7.7million Canadians have received at least one payment. Second, almost 11million payments have been made.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: How many prisoners have received a Canada emergency response benefit cheque?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: This allows me to go even further and thank the hon. member again. Some 7.7million Canadians have received emergency assistance in an emergency situation
The Chair: Mr.Poilievre has the floor.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: So now he's claiming that 7 million Canadians are in jail? The question was this: How many prisoners have received a benefit cheque?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr.Chair, jokes can be made about the plight of Canadians who are suffering tremendously in this crisis, but I'm not here to make
The Chair: Mr.Poilievre has the floor.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Even the CBC is saying that prisoners are receiving the cheque. They can't have lost their jobs. They were already in prison. It's a simple question: How many prisoners have received the cheques?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I'd like to remind hon. members that we're talking about an extremely serious situation, a situation that has called into question people's ability to make ends meet, a situation that required emergency measures. We're going to continue to do the job that Canadians expect.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: The question was, how many prisoners have received the cheques?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I've already explained to the hon. memberand I'm pleased to remind himthat this benefit is an emergency measure.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: The Auditor General says that he's dropping half of his audits because the government refuses to provide him with funding. If the government has enough money to send 200,000 fraudulent applicants emergency cheques, why won't the government give the Auditor General the funding he requested?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I thank the hon. member. It gives me the opportunity, in this emergency situation, to talk about the role of institutions, including that of the Auditor General, which we will continue to support because it helps us do things right.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Then what does the Auditor General have to do to get the money to do his audits? Does he have to file a bunch of fraudulent applications for an emergency response benefit?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr.Chair, because I know the hon. member well enough, I'm sure that he isn't givingand doesn't want to givethe impression that the Auditor General wants to commit fraud to do his job properly.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: I agree, and that's why he should get the money he needs to do his job. He did twice as many audits under the previous government as he is doing now, but he doesn't have the money to do the audits he needs to do to keep an eye on this government's extraordinary spending. Yes or no, will the government give the Auditor General the funding he has requested so he can get back to doing the same number of audits he did under the much more robust funding of the previous Harper government?
The Chair: The hon. Prime Minister.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, the previous government cut funding to the Auditor General and caused the office to lay off dozens of employees. We increased the funding for the Auditor General. We recognize the important work the Auditor General needs to do, and that's why we increased the funding for the Auditor General. The party of the member opposite cut this funding.
The Chair: I appreciate the help from some of the members in keeping time. I do have my own chronograph here, so I'll take care of it from this end, but I appreciate the help. Thank you. I now give the floor to Mr.Deltell.
Mr. Grard Deltell (Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC): Mr.Chair, I fully agree with the Treasury Board President that we aren't here to make jokes, but to set the record straight for Canadians. Yesterday, the National Post reported on the front page that 200,000people had fraudulently used emergency assistance. Is that statement accurate, yes or no?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr.Chair, I thank the hon. member from my region. A few minutes ago, I was reminding people in my region that, in the greater Quebec City area, about 200,000people had received this emergency benefit and that it was not for fraudulent reasons, but because they really needed it.
Mr. Grard Deltell: The question is about fraudsters, and I know that there aren't many of them in Quebec City. That said, my question is very simple. I want to know whether or not 200,000people fraudulently used emergency assistance.
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I know my colleague already knows this, but we announced at the outset that strong and rigorous mechanisms would be put in place quickly to ensure that this delivery would respect the importance of integrity in government.
Mr. Grard Deltell: The integrity of the government must be upheld, and this must be done by telling the truth. Yesterday, the National Post reported on the front page about 200,000fraudsters. Is that correct, yes or no?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: To set the record straight, the Minister of National Revenue, Ms.Lebouthillier, made it very clear that there was no tolerance for fraud in this system, that all mechanisms would be put in place to ensure that integrity would be respected.
Mr. Grard Deltell: The Treasury Board President is one of the few Canadians to find that Ms.Lebouthillier was very clear yesterday. With respect to the Minister of National Revenue, I would point out that the member for RichmondArthabaska asked her a very clear question yesterday, which she was unable to answer. What does a person who has received the full CERB, $2,000, and returns to work this week have to do? Do they have to pay back the amount they aren't entitled to? Do they keep the$2,000? Do they have to wait and include it on their next year's tax return? Which of these three options should the person choose?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I thank the hon. member for his question, which is very relevant. In fact, that person must contact Service Canada or the Canada Revenue Agency, depending on the system under which he or she received this benefit, and ensure that, in the circumstances that apply to him or her, the decisions and actions taken are appropriate.
Mr. Grard Deltell: It's too bad, Mr.Chair, because it's the boss who is in front of me, here in committee. It's good that the citizen calls the public servant, but the public servant's boss is the Treasury Board President. Can he give a clear indication to citizens? What should they do now with the emergency assistance they received with this month's benefit? Should they keep it in full or pay it back now? I'd like a clear answer, please.
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Again, I recognize the importance of insisting on clarity. What's clear here is that each person must make decisions based on his or her own circumstances, and the responsible way to act is to interact with public servants at Service Canada or the Canada Revenue Agency.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Service Canada employees must have clear instructions from their boss. The boss is here. This is the President of the Treasury Board. Could the President of the Treasury Board, in very clear terms, tell the employees answering questions from Canadians what they have to say to those currently receiving the Canada emergency response benefit, but who are actually at work? These are honest people. They are not fraudsters. They want to comply with the law. Can the President of the Treasury Board give them clear instructions?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: That is extraordinary, because my colleague focused on two key terms: honesty and hard work. In terms of the honesty of Canadians, in all cases, I am convinced that they will contact the appropriate officials. As for the hard work of those officials, they know what they have to do and they have been doing it in an exemplary way since the crisis began.
Mr. Grard Deltell: And yet those good officials, whom I frequently commend on social media for their excellent work, have no clear instructions from their boss. Mr.President, let me go back to the basic question. The National Post said that 200,000Canadians have used the emergency assistance fraudulently, to the tune of $1.6billion. Is that the case, yes or no?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I am sure that the honourable member is not questioning the ability of Canada Revenue Agency officers to follow the very clear directive of ensuring that the mechanisms reflect the importance of maintaining the integrity of the Government of Canada during the exceptional circumstances we are experiencing.
The Chair: We'll now go on to Ms. Gray.
Mrs. Tracy Gray (KelownaLake Country, CPC): Mr. Chair, last week British Columbia unveiled its plan to begin reopening its economy. I've been speaking with many business owners and business associations in my riding, and I'm hearing that they're not getting their orders for cleaning supplies. Some businesses have said their back orders go back to March. They do not know how they can possibly reopen if they are not meeting health cleaning standards or accessing PPE for their employees and customers. They are well aware of the issues arising from this government's reliance on Chinese manufacturing rather than building capacity here. What is the government doing to address these issues and ensure wholesale supply companies get products now so that they can distribute them to the businesses that need them?
Hon. Anita Anand (Oakville, Lib.): Mr. Chair, our government is rapidly and aggressively buying life-saving equipment that Canada needs from a diverse range of suppliers. We are building up domestic capacity as well as procuring internationally. Our priority is to make sure front-line health care workers have the support they need. In terms of other areas of the economy, we are working with our federal and provincial counterparts to make sure that we can do so in collaboration with them.
Mrs. Tracy Gray: Mr. Chair, an ongoing concern I've heard from small business owners is that they are ineligible for CEBA because they don't have a business account. When I brought up this point to small business minister Ng at committee, she said it was the first time that she had heard of this issue and that she would follow up. I asked this question on April 23, and it's now been almost three weeks. Small business has been let down. Can the government confirm that they're going to fix this issue?
Hon. Navdeep Bains (MississaugaMalton, Lib.): Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for her question. It is really important that this program that we've established help small businesses. We have shown in the past that we're very flexible and nimble in accommodating the needs of businesses. I assure the member opposite that we are looking into this matter and will come forward with a resolution in a timely manner.
Mrs. Tracy Gray: Mr. Chair, I just read another email from a small business owner this morning who has been let down by the government. He chose to pay off debts instead of paying himself a wage; therefore, he's ineligible for CEBA, for that loan. Owner-operators have been eliminated from participating in government programs because they did not put themselves on the payroll. This shows a true lack of understanding of small businesses and especially of owner-operators. Will the government commit to fixing this issue?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Thank you very much. Again, I want to thank the honourable member for her question. We have focused particularly on small businesses to make sure they have the appropriate support they need. With regard to the program that she highlighted, we have shown flexibility in the eligibility criteria by decreasing the payroll threshold for individual companies that want to apply for this loan to $20,000 versus $50,000, and the upper limit has gone to $1.5 million versus $1 million. We will continue to bring forward the changes necessary to have more businesses
Mrs. Tracy Gray: This government has left Canadian craft breweries out to dry, like the hops in their beer. On April 24, the Canadian Craft Brewers Association released a report on the effects of COVID-19 on the Canadian craft brewing industry. The report states that 38% of craft brewers did not qualify for the Canadian emergency wage subsidy in March, and 53% were either not sure or predicted that they would not qualify in April. Many a brew pub, like BNA in my riding, due to higher payrolls are also not eligible for the CEBA loan. They have been left out and let down. Five per cent of these breweries have already closed permanently, and others are on the verge of doing so. A portion have stepped up and are making PPE. Will this government take the initiative to support this industry by amending program requirements?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: When it comes to the Canada emergency wage subsidy, we have demonstrated flexibility and nimbleness. The program requirement changed in terms of revenue threshold. We originally had 30% for the month of March. We changed that to 15%. The eligibility criteria to compare to the first two months of this year now also compare to the previous year as well. We're going to continue to make changes to make sure more businesses can access this program.
The Chair: Ms. Gray, you have 33 seconds.
Mrs. Tracy Gray: In my constituency, Okanagan fruit production is a huge industry, and many apple orchardists have brought concerns to me regarding high costs, apples from last season selling below cost, the CUSMA agreement not helping the industy, and low-priced Washington apples flooding our market. COVID-19 has exacerbated their dire financial situation. The BC Fruit Growers' Association has called the government announcements of measures for agriculture underwhelming. I questioned Minister Bibeau in the House a couple of months ago, and at the time she did not have an answer. What is the plan to help our orchardists?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (ComptonStanstead, Lib.): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Since this crisis began, we have been helping entrepreneurs in all sectors. We began with measures to assist small, medium and large companies, and we are now going progressively sector by sector. Last week, we announced additional funding for agriculture
The Chair: We'll now go on to Mr. Barlow.
Mr. John Barlow (Foothills, CPC): Mr. Chair, in my riding of Foothills, we've established a Foothills business recovery task force. We surveyed hundreds of small business owners about the effectiveness of the emergency programs put forward by the government. The results of that survey were quite alarming. More than half of the respondents have not qualified for any of the programs, and the vast majority of them have said their businesses will not last more than another month. Will the government expand the eligibility for some of these programs to include sole proprietorships, or is the government still looking at refunding the GST paid by some of the businesses over the last year?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, I want to highlight the fact that we have issued 590,000 loans through the CEBA account. This demonstrates that this particular program is working and that businesses are taking advantage of it. We recognize that we want to be more generous and more thoughtful about these programs. We've demonstrated flexibility in the past and we will continue to be nimble going forward.
Mr. John Barlow: Mr. Chair, to the Minister of Agriculture, Dr. Charlebois said that we are on the precipice of losing 15% of our farms and that 30,000 farm families are at risk of bankruptcy. This will have a devastating effect on our rural economies. Does the minister know the impact that losing 30,000 family farms will have on our food security and the price of groceries on the store shelves?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, the agriculture and agri-food sector is extremely important. We have clearly stated that it is an essential service. That is why we have risk management programs that are already well established. I understand that producers would like the programs to be more generous, and we are ready to do more, but they first need to use those programs. They have $1.6billion available
Mr. John Barlow: Mr. Chair, business risk management programs don't apply to every single stakeholder and the programs are not working for the producers. There is a bottleneck right now in our processing capacity. When the minister renounced the AgriRecovery program, funds were set aside for cattle and pork producers. When is that money going to be available, and how long will it last?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: We are talking about two different programs here. We added $77.5million to the program helping the processing sector and $50million on two occasions for our pork and beef producers under the AgriRecovery program. Once again, that is additional money. In recent years, an average of $15million have gone out of this program, whereas this year
The Chair: Mr. Barlow.
Mr. John Barlow: Mr. Chair, it is not new money; it has been budgeted year after year and it's budgeted again for next year. The cattlemen said that the set-aside funds that the minister is talking about are already gone and did not last even two weeks. If this government isn't assisting Canadian farmers, is the government's food policy to rely on food imported from foreign countries to feed Canadian families ?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, the fund to assist our beef producers cannot have already disappeared because the criteria will be unveiled in the coming days. I can assure you that we are working as efficiently as possible so that the program can be rolled out and the money can be channelled to our beef and pork producers.
Mr. John Barlow: Mr. Chair, producers across this country have said that an exemption from the carbon tax would help them greatly during this pandemic. When I asked the minister about any data that was available for the impact the carbon tax had on agriculture, the answer I got was that this information was secret. Yesterday at committee, the minister said that this was a mistake and that this information has been public. My staff and I looked everywhere last night, as did journalists, and that information could not be found. Is that information actually available?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Yes, Mr.Chair, that information is available and public. I will happily pass the information on to my colleague.
Mr. John Barlow: If that data is available, then the minister must know the financial impacts that the carbon tax has on Canadian farmers. With the information that the minister apparently has, does she agree with the Prime Minister that Canadian farmers are much better off financially by paying the carbon tax?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Each organization analyzes different assumptions, methodologies and geographic areas, so the results give a broad range of estimated impacts. According to the organization that has provided information, in 2019, the estimated impacts of a $20-per-tonne price on pollution due to grain drying ranged
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Barlow. You have 30 seconds, please.
Mr. John Barlow: Does the minister agree with the Prime Minister that farmers are financially better off paying the carbon tax?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, the price on pollution is an extremely important measure for our economy in general and for our transition to a greener economy. We have already provided various exemptions to the agriculture sector: for gasoline, for the access card and for the greenhouse sector.
The Chair: The next question goes to Mr. Kelly.
Mr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC): Will the government fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The answer is that we have done that in 2018 and 2019, and the Prime Minister
Mr. Pat Kelly: Mr. Chair, I hope the minister would not want to mislead the House. The office is certainly not fully funded, as per the testimony we heard yesterday at the finance committee. This government has expanded the Auditor General's responsibilities without adequate resources. When will the government fully fund the Auditor General?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: To continue my answer, and as the Prime Minister said just a moment ago, that has led to the hiring of 38 new staff members. That's great to hear, because they are doing even better than they used to before we came into power.
Mr. Pat Kelly: No previous auditor general in Canadian history has ever had to tell a parliamentary committee that they had insufficient funds to do their job. That is what in fact this Auditor General has done. When will the government fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I'm glad again to be given the ability to say how important the work of the Auditor General is. We believe very much in that role. That's why we increased the funding that is necessary for that office to do its important job. We will keep working hard with the Auditor General.
Mr. Pat Kelly: Sadly, Michael Ferguson passed away in 2019, yet the government has refused to name a permanent replacement. Why?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr. Chair, this is another wonderful opportunity to remind all members of this House of the importance of these institutions. When we face these tragic deaths, we of course are very sad of the passing of the people, and we work
The Chair: Go ahead, Mr. Kelly.
Mr. Pat Kelly: Yesterday the Parliamentary Budget Officer said that Canada's debt could reach $1 trillion this year. What will it cost to service a $1-trillion debt?
Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, we remain committed to doing, as we've said, whatever it takes to support Canadians through this challenging time. We think this is extremely important, and we will continue to focus on the well-being of all Canadians.
Mr. Pat Kelly: What is the estimated annual debt servicing cost of the aid measures announced so far?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, there will be an opportunity for us to give a full outline of the costs and benefits of our measures, and we will do that when we have the ability to have
The Chair: Mr. Kelly.
Mr. Pat Kelly: is Canada's AAA credit rating.
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Speaker, Canada came into this crisis with a very strong fiscal position, and of course we will experience challenges as we move forward, but we believe that we should experience those challenges as we support Canadians.
Mr. Pat Kelly: What would the effect of a downgrade be on Canada's debt servicing costs?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we will continue to focus on how we can support Canadians and Canadian businesses as we get through this challenge.
Mr. Pat Kelly: How many private sector bank loans have been funded for small and medium-sized businesses under the business credit availability program?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, as the information on the business credit availability program becomes available, we are being fully transparent with the finance committee and with this House.
Mr. Pat Kelly: Does the minister know how many loans have been funded under that program?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I'm not in the habit of memorizing every single number available to us, but what I can confirm is that we will be transparent with this House on the numbers as they become available.
Mr. Pat Kelly: Does the minister know the dollar amount or the approximate dollar amount so far lent and guaranteed by Export Development Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, one number that would probably be helpful for people to understand is that we've now had over 550,000 approved loans under the CEBA program, representing over 20 billion dollars' worth of money that's actually
The Chair: Mr. Kelly.
Mr. Pat Kelly: Will the government fix the CEBA program to include businesses that pay owner-operators through dividends?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I think the language fix is incorrect, for more than 500,000 businesses have received this loan. Of course, we are always endeavouring to make sure it works for as many businesses as possible.
Mr. Pat Kelly: Will the government fix CEBA to cover small businesses that hire day labourers or subcontractors?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, again we've demonstrated flexibility and nimbleness when it comes to this program. We changed the eligibility criteria to make sure that more businesses can apply and be eligible for this program. We will endeavour to make sure that more Canadians have access to this program, particularly small businesses in rural and remote communities.
Mr. Pat Kelly: Will the government fix CEBA to cover business owners who use personal instead of business chequing accounts to operate their business?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Again, Mr. Chair, I want to highlight the fact that this has been a very positive program and well received by many small businesses. Over 590,000 small business loans have been issued, and that's a testament to the design of the program. We're going to make sure we continue to engage with small businesses.
The Chair: The next question goes to Mr. Chong.
Hon. Michael Chong (WellingtonHalton Hills, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Last week, on Friday, Statistics Canada was to release labour force survey data at 8:30 a.m. eastern time, one of the most important and market-moving indicators of the month, but someone in the government leaked that information ahead of time, almost 45 minutes ahead of time, and exclusively to Bloomberg terminal users on Wall Street and on Bay Street, who pay thousands of dollars a month for those terminals. Moving markets, the Canadian dollar moved eight basis points in that short period of time and billions were made or lost on the market. Section 34 of the Statistics Act makes it a criminal offence for someone to leak information that might influence stock, bond or currency markets. Has the government notified the RCMP about what appears to be a criminal breach of the Statistics Act?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. I, too, share the same concerns that he's highlighted with regard to this leak. This is completely unacceptable. That is why we're going to make sure that a proper and thorough examination is done, and going forward we want to make sure that no such breach or leak occurs.
Hon. Michael Chong: Mr. Chair, Statistics Canada said that staffers and ministers' offices, including the Prime Minister's office, the finance minister's office, the employment minister's office and the industry minister's office, would have received this secret information no earlier than 2 p.m. the previous day. Statistics Canada has also indicated that it has begun an internal investigation. Will the minister commit to fully co-operating with this investigation?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: I'd like to remind the honourable colleague that our government has supported Statistics Canada. We're the ones who reintroduced the mandatory long-form census. We're the ones who funded more money for Statistics Canada. The member opposite knows that we'll be fully co-operative in any such investigation into any leak.
Hon. Michael Chong: Will the minister commit to making the results of this investigation public?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, the member opposite knows full well that there are proper processes and protocols in place when it comes to such sensitive matters, and we will ensure that those processes and protocols
The Chair: Mr. Chong.
Hon. Michael Chong: Mr. Chair, I hope there is no double standard for ministers' offices and the public service, because it was only about 13 years ago that a public servant was criminally charged and convicted for using top secret information in the markets. I hope that in this investigation, and in the release of the information concerning this investigation, ministers' staffers aren't held to a different standard than the public service has been held to. This leak speaks to the integrity of the government. Intelligence at the Five Eyes.... Our four allies have been telling us for years that one of the top two or three threats that democracies are facing is declining public confidence in our key institutions. Democracies have been blindsided by misinformation, disinformation and cyber-attacks, and now we are being blindsided by the misuse of information by this very government. That doesn't even.... The government's own national statistics-gathering agency doesn't trust this cabinet or this government, and that's why they announced several days ago that they would suspend the pre-release of information to the cabinet. What is the government going to do to restore public confidence in our institutions?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, our government has remained steadfast in its support for Statistics Canada. I'd like to remind my honourable colleague that we are the government that brought forward legislation to strengthen the independence of Statistics Canada. We're the government that brought forward measures to make sure they have additional monies for conducting the proper mandatory long-form census as well. When it comes to the leak that the member opposite is talking about, we're not going to prejudge the outcome. We have been very clear that the proper processes and protocols that are in place will be followed.
The Chair: You have time for a very brief question, Mr. Chong.
Hon. Michael Chong: Mr. Chair, I hope the government will call the RCMP and notify them about what appears to be a criminal breach of the Statistics Act, because it was a previous Liberal minister who himself was subject to a lot of misinformation and was a target of improper allegations about his office's use of information that leaked about the income trust changes that the previous Liberal government had brought in. The RCMP began an investigation and, in the course of the investigation, they charged a public servant who was ultimately convicted of breaching that secret information. I hope the minister holds his office and the offices of his cabinet colleagues to the same standard, calls in the RCMP and makes them aware of what appears to be a criminal breach of the Statistics Act.
The Chair: The honourable minister, in 30 seconds or less, please.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: I'm sorry. How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?
The Chair: We're over the time, but I'm allowing 30 seconds so we can get a full
Hon. Navdeep Bains: I appreciate that very much. Again, I want to take this opportunity to say that leaks of this nature are completely unacceptable. We've been very clear that we are going to take the appropriate steps. Statistics Canada is taking the appropriate steps. I want to remind the member opposite that we're not going to prejudge any outcome at this stage. Again, it is our government that has been consistently supporting Statistics Canada in its work through the previous years.
The Chair: Thank you. We'll take a short break to allow our console operators to switch in a healthy way. While we're doing that, I'm going to mention something. It happens at the end of a question. When there's less than a minute left and the question goes over half the time left over, I'll just indicate to the person asking the question that we've reached the limit so that the other side can answer with the same amount of time and we have a fair playing field. We're ready to go again. The Honourable Member for BeloeilChambly has the floor.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Thank you, Mr.Chair. We are making progress, but unfortunately, I'd like to hear it in French as well. I will address my question to the Prime Minister. First, let me remind you that, on March12, the government announced a first series of measures of about $1billion to adapt to what was at the time the beginning of the coronavirus crisis, including $500million in transfers to the provinces, with about $100million going to Quebec. Since that time, the commitments from the government have reached very probably around $300billion, making those first $500 million pale by comparison. Of course, the crisis became longer and it is not over yet. In that context, and given what I heard the Prime Minister say a little earlier about respecting the areas of jurisdiction of the provinces, and of Quebec, can we expect a speedy increase in health transfers to Quebec and the provinces, an increase that would be permanent, and, of course, without conditions?
The Chair: The honourable minister has the floor.
Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Thank you, Mr.Chair. We've increased health transfers to provinces and territories significantly since we first came into government in 2015. We continue to work with provinces and territories on a regular basis to make sure they're supported not just in the outbreak of this pandemic, but in the increased cost overall to health care across the country. Our investments have included investments for mental health, for home care and for the additional expenses that provinces and territories face as a result of an aging population. We'll continue to work with provinces and territories to ensure those health care needs are met.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: With all respect, Mr.Chair, that is a little disappointing. While the leader of the NDP wants the federal government to interfere massively in provincial jurisdiction over health, the Prime Minister replies in English. That is perfectly legitimate in this Parliament, but his reply in English is, no, the government absolutely respects provincial jurisdiction. That made me happy for a brief moment, and I am asking the Prime Minister, without wanting to interrupt his precious reading, to please repeat in French was he said just now in English, that he absolutely respects provincial jurisdiction over health, which is exclusive. So could you please provide that music to my ears?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, just as I respect the member opposite's right to speak in his first language, I hope that he understands that I am trying to learn our second official language in a high-pressure situation, and it often creates anxiety. I will tell him, though, that we fully respect the jurisdiction of provinces and territories to address the needs of their constituents and their members, and we work very closely with Quebec and with all provinces and territories to make sure that the funds we transfer from the federal government can be utilized in a way that best meets the needs of their constituents.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Let's not get into that. It says to me that French is the second official language. Well, it's my first official language and it's the first one in Quebec. I would like to have heard that in French. I would like to have heard it from the Prime Minister, because it's a constitutional issue. Basically, you could say that it's our heritage. So that is what I would like to have heard. Let me proceed with a short and simple question: is health in the exclusive jurisdiction of the provinces in the current crisis management situation?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): Mr.Chair, I would like to tell my colleague that we have no first or second official language. We have two official languages. They have the same value and the same importance. They deserve the same respect in the House and in the institutions of the government. We are always happy to collaborate with the provinces and to respect their jurisdictions.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Hearing that we have no first or second official language is better already. Between friends, let's say that they are equal. Let us take it one step further: is health in the jurisdiction of Quebec and the provinces?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, we live in a federation where we work closely together with provinces and territories so that we can reach our mutually important goals, one of which is that all citizens of Canada, all members of Canada, have access to a public health care system that meets their needs. We continue to work within the constitutional framework
The Chair: Excuse me, but I have to interrupt you. Mr.Blanchet, you have 21seconds left.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: The answer could be even shorter than the question. Is health in provincial jurisdiction? Will there be an increase in the health transfers and will they come without conditions?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, I am sure the member would argue that it is important to work together. The federal government transfers money to the provinces, as he is well aware, to deliver health care, which is within each province's and territory's jurisdiction.
The Chair: We now move to Mrs.Gill.
Mrs. Marilne Gill (Manicouagan, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. As the member for Manicouagan, I would like to address the House today on a matter that is very important in my constituency. At 350,000square kilometres, it borders the Gulf of St.Lawrence. Regionally, I am also in eastern Quebec, which includes the Gasp, the Magdalen Islands, and the Lower St.Lawrence. These are regions whose economy rests basically on two very important seasonal industries: tourism and fishing. Make no mistake, it is not the workers who are seasonal, it is the industry itself, as our former leader Gilles Duceppe so rightly used to say. Those industries are very important for that region of Quebec, but I see no measures to support them that accommodate all their uniqueness. These are cyclical industries, meaning that they operate at a very specific period during the year. A few minutes ago, I heard the Prime Minister say that he had intervened to help the companies and the workers in those seasonal industries. I would like to know what the specific assistance is and how it is tailored to the companies and the workers in the seasonal industries he mentions.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr.Chair, I would like to thank my colleague for her question. We know that the current situation is causing upheaval in the lives of Canadians from one end of the country to the other and that it is having a major impact on our small and medium businesses. Since this crisis began, we have not hesitated to implement strong and speedy measures to support more Canadians. That is what we will continue to do. We know that the tourism sector is key to a number of communities in the country. We must help them to get through this crisis as best we can. We are continuing to have discussions and to tailor our measures so that as many Canadians as possible can take advantage of them.
Mrs. Marilne Gill: Mr.Chair, with all respect, I am hearing that nothing has been done. Measures have been proposed, but, as I understand it, they are not specific to the seasonal sectors. Let us take the seasonal fishing industry. The fishers are currently going out, but right in the middle of the COVID-19 crisis. One fishing season has been pushed back. The same thing applies to tourism. The season will be pushed back, and it is possible that there may even not be one. The people and the companies in this sector have no second chances. They cannot start again in the fall. It's a bit like agriculture. They can't start a fishing season or a tourist season in the fall. So they need assistance. We have some proposals. For example, would the government be prepared to let the Canada emergency response benefit provide workers with eligibility to employment insurance benefits? They could then get through the coming year and make it to next season.
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr.Chair, I want to thank the member for speaking about the situation in all regions of Canada, particularly in Quebec. From the start, we've been implementing significant measures to support the millions of workers who are currently struggling. We've taken significant measures with respect to tourism, agriculture and regional development. We're providing broader investments, such as the wage subsidy and emergency loans for small businesses, of which there are many in my colleague's constituency. We'll continue to work very hard so that the workers and businesses in her constituency can get through this crisis and emerge stronger and more united.
Mrs. Marilne Gill: Mr.Chair, that's strike two. This is the second time that I've asked a question about targeted assistance for the seasonal industry. My honourable colleague's response doesn't make me feel any better. The workers in the industry also don't feel any better when they see that, at the end of the summer, they'll have no job and no money to put food on the table. Will these workers receive assistance adapted to their needs? It's the same thing for businesses. We're currently talking about the businesses in my constituency, but there are also businesses in the East. Quebec and Canada as a whole, both in terms of fishing and tourism
The Chair: The honourable President of the Treasury Board has the floor.
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Thank you, Mr.Chair. My colleague probably knows the information that I'll be giving. The Canada Emergency Response Benefit is available to all individuals who haven't been receiving employment insurance benefits since December2019. A number of stakeholders in Canada and Quebec called for this, particularly in the places
The Chair: The next question goes to Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. The Prime Minister announced the business bailout, and in that proposal, he said that there would be limits on CEO bonuses and share buybacks. By saying limits, the Prime Minister is suggesting that there would be some amount of bonuses or share buybacks that could be paid for with public dollars. If that's the case, how much?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we believe that it's very important that we support jobs. In that regard, we're trying to make sure that businesses can get through this time. As we provide that support, we've been very clear for large enterprises that share buybacks will not be allowed, period, and that there will, of course, be limitations on total compensation for senior executives in order to give Canadians confidence that we're doing the things we need to do to support them, but that we're not supporting executives.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, Germany has actually taken the lead and said that if a company wants public money, then its executives must commit to reducing their pay. Will Canada follow Germany to ensure that public dollars go to workers and not to enrich the executive suite, and commit that no public money will go to bonuses or increasing salaries for executives?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we are looking forward to releasing the complete details of the large employer emergency financing facility, and I think the member opposite will be quite pleased to see that we will be leading on behalf of Canada in advance of what Germany is doing.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, we know the PBO has said that $25 billion, at least, is being lost to our revenues because corporations are avoiding paying their fair share. Will the Prime Minister commit today very clearly that if a company is hiding its money by putting it in an offshore tax haven, that company will not receive public help, yes or no?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, again with regard to this program, we want to be very clear that the support that goes to large businesses actually supports their Canadian enterprises and their Canadian employees. In that regard, we will not allow any company that has been convicted of tax evasion to have access to these funds, and we will carefully evaluate on an ongoing basis to make sure that companies remain eligible for this support based on their continuing investment in Canada.
The Chair: Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, how many companies can the Minister of Finance name that have been convicted of tax evasion that would be denied help under this program?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I think what's most important is that we focus on Canadians. We're trying to support Canadians, whether they're working for small or large businesses, so they can get through this, can support their families during this time, and come out with a job at the end of it. That is exactly where our focus lies in this regard.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, not a single company. We are four years past the Panama papers and there hasn't been a single conviction. Those are simply fancy Liberal words saying that a company that has been convicted of tax evasion.... There are simply no companies that this government can give as an example. Why don't we follow what France has done and commit very clearly, not in Liberal fancy words but straight up, if a company is hiding its money by using offshore tax havens, it will not get public help. Will the minister commit to that right now?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we've been working with France and other countries to make these rules stricter for businesses. The process around the common reporting standard and the base erosion profit shifting has made it more difficult for firms to move money into tax havens, and it has ensured that we have transparency in seeing when they do so. We'll continue to do that hard work to make sure that businesses abide by the rules and pay their appropriate part of taxes in our country.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, let's talk about hard work. If a company is not convicted of tax evasion, but is putting its money in Barbados or Bermuda, for example, specifically to avoid paying taxesand we have a similar example of Loblaws doing something like thiswill that company, despite not having a conviction, but clearly having avoided paying their fair share by putting their money in an offshore tax haven, receive help, yes or no?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I'd suggest that the member be very careful in accusing companies of wrongdoing. We have a country that respects international rules. We allow our companies to trade and do business around the world. That continues to be important, and that supports Canadian jobs. At the same time, we're trying to make sure those international rules work and get tighter. That's what we've been working on. We'll continue to do that because we know it's important that we can work internationally. It's important that companies pay their fair share here in Canada.
The Chair: The next question goes to Mr. Hoback.
Mr. Randy Hoback (Prince Albert, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Liberals hand-picked ambassador to China, Dominic Barton, stated that China's conduct during the pandemic is damaging to its own soft power. However, when asked if there should be an investigation into China's behaviour during the crisis, the health minister stated that's not for her to say because she doesn't have all the evidence about what China did or didn't do. Why is Canada's ambassador to China criticizing China's actions during the pandemic while this Liberal government is defending it?
The Chair: The honourable Deputy Prime Minister.
Hon. Chrystia Freeland (UniversityRosedale, Lib.): Mr. Chair, Ambassador Barton is an excellent representative of Canada in China, and he is a member of our government and very much shares and helps to formulate our government's policy when it comes to China. Ambassador Barton, of course, shares our government's view that a post-crisis review is absolutely necessary.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, the government's March 27 duty deferral announcement has caused tension within the trade community. Customs brokers are being asked to shoulder tremendous liability as importers are not required to make duty payments until the end of June, when there is a real possibility that some of them may find themselves insolvent. Will the government commit to a liability exemption for customs brokers whose clients are unable to pay the duties at the end of June?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we have worked hard to determine programs that we think can be supportive of individuals and businesses, including allowing for deferral of taxes through this period. That we believe is important with respect to the GST, which we've allowed to be deferred until July 1, and in terms of taxes for businesses, until the end of August. We think this helps businesses to get through this challenging time, and we'll continue to support businesses and individuals so we can have a strong economy when we get through this crisis.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, the following three questions are from constituents in my riding, so hopefully, I'll get some good answers for them. The first one I'll talk about is Rick. He owns a small business, a local bowling alley, in Melfort. It's a family-owned operation, so he doesn't meet the payroll threshold for the wage subsidy benefit, nor does he qualify for any other announced loans or grants. There are businesses right across Canada that are in similar situations. Is the minister suggesting that they lie to get the funds, or will they make some changes so they qualify?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: I want to highlight some of the initiatives we have put forward to assist small businesses. The Canada emergency wage subsidy covers 75% of the wages of employees, and that way they can maintain their jobs. We've also put forward the enhanced work-sharing program. It's an option for businesses to pay their employees. On top of that, I want to highlight the Canada emergency business account, which has issued 590,000 loans. As the Minister of Finance recently mentioned, we've deferred GST and HST and customs duty payments for businesses for the next three months.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, Robert owns a cleaning products company in Prince Albert. He tells me that Canadian custodians and building service contractors are not purchasing Canadian-made disinfectants because very few are included in the federal approval list for COVID-19, even though Canada produces many products that Health Canada has certified as disinfectants. Why is the Liberal government not prioritizing the approval of Canadian-made products?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, that assertion is not correct. In fact, we have been working very closely with producers of Canadian products as well as with our colleagues at Innovation, Science and Economic Development to make sure that Canadian companies have what they need to very quickly move through the approval process. Health Canada has accelerated this process, and most companies can get approved in one to seven days. Of course, there is an iterative process that requires companies to ensure that a product is safe for use in Canada.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, last week the government announced $252 million in assistance for Canadian farmers, which was largely seen as an insult, especially given that a good amount of this money was already budgeted. A constituent of mine, Tracy, from Melfort, wrote to me asking me to advocate for farmers and ranchers so they can get the support they need to continue to produce our food. When will the government start to prioritize farmers and ranchers? Will they continue to reform the business risk management program?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Absolutely, Mr.Chair. We're working very hard with our provincial colleagues to improve the risk management programs. We did announce programs last week, and some of these new programs are designed specifically for the meat sector. A total of $77.5million is earmarked for processors and $50million for beef producers.
The Chair: The next question goes to Mr. Calkins.
Mr. Blaine Calkins (Red DeerLacombe, CPC): Mr. Chair, provinces are reopening at different speeds, and that includes opening their provincial parks before the May long weekend. It no longer makes sense for fully staffed national parks across the country to be uniformly closed. Will the Minister of Environment commit to opening national parks in harmony with provincial and territorial parks across Canada?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, we are working very closely with our provincial partners on the reopening. I am pleased that we were able to publish, on Tuesday, April 28, shared guidelines on the reopening, which were supported by the Prime Minister and all of the premiers of the provinces and territories
The Chair: Mr. Calkins.
Mr. Blaine Calkins: Mr. Chair, boating is a safe way to enjoy the outdoors while maintaining physical distancing. Why is Parks Canada postponing the opening of lock operations and similar functions along our heritage waterways?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, as I was saying in my answer to the first question, the question of coordinating national and provincial parks is a very good one. That is something we are definitely working on.
Mr. Blaine Calkins: Mr. Chair, since the beginning of this pandemic, the minority Liberal government has been actively trying to push our democracy aside. It severely limited parliamentary sittings, attempted to take executive control of tax rates and used an order in council to ban lawfully acquired and responsibly owned firearms. When will the government stop using this pandemic as an excuse to run roughshod over our cherished democratic values?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: I don't understand this question at all, since we're meeting here to ask questions for twohours and 15minutes. That's the equivalent of three question periods. Yesterday, there was the equivalent of two question periods, and tomorrow there will be the equivalent of two more question periods. We're talking about seven question periods. That's more than normal.
Mr. Blaine Calkins: Mr. Chair, the inconsistency in support for various sectors in our economy is baffling. There is more money made available to forcibly confiscate lawfully owned property than in emergency support for our hard-working farmers or our prosperity-creating oil and gas sector. The only consistent theme appears to be that sectors that do not traditionally vote Liberal are finding themselves left out in the cold. If that is not the case, why is there such an obvious discrepancy?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, those comments are completely unjustified. We're fully committed to our sectors, including the energy sector and the agriculture and agrifood sector. This is particularly important. These sectors are critical. That's why we're working to improve our risk management programs. We want to ensure that the criteria are broader and that more producers can benefit from these programs.
Mr. Blaine Calkins: Mr. Chair, during the misinformation briefing, the public safety minister used Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom as examples for firearms policy. Does the public safety minister realize that these countries are islands and none share a border with anyone, least of which with the United States of America? Is my bringing this new-found evidence to the minister's attention going to change his focus to smugglers, gangs and criminals, instead of wrongfully blaming lawful gun owners?
Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): Mr. Chair, I would like to assure the member that I have actually seen an atlas. I want to be very clear that those countries have recognized, like Canada has, that these weapons have no place in a civil society. They were designed for soldiers to engage in combat with other soldiers. They were not designed for hunting and sporting purposes, which are the lawful uses of a firearm in Canada, but rather for individuals to kill other individuals. Tragically, in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom, that is precisely what they have been used for, and we have prohibited
The Chair: Mr. Calkins.
Mr. Blaine Calkins: Mr. Chair, the nine o'clock gun is an iconic 12-pound cannon that has been fired daily in Vancouver in Stanley Park since the 1800s. It's now a prohibited firearm as of May 1, 2020. Can the minister advise the public of the safety risks that this cannon, which was manufactured in 1816, poses to the public?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, I assume the member opposite is referring to the prohibition of grenade launchers. There are about 34 in Canada and we have brought in regulations that now prohibit grenade launchers. It does not apply to some of the other things that have been suggested by the member opposite.
Mr. Blaine Calkins: Mr. Chair, I was referring to the iconic, heritage 12-pound cannon that is mounted on a pedestal in Stanley Park. It was manufactured in 1816. Any cannon that can be fired can be loaded with a projectile, so it meets the definition of a firearm, which means that every cannon in Canada, every heritage piece that might be in a museum, every heritage piece that might be in a collection, is now a prohibited firearm. Was the minister not aware of this when he announced this policy?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, just to help the member opposite, let us be very clear. We have prohibited weapons that were unfortunately widely available in Canada and were being used for purposes other than sporting activities, which is the only use of a firearm in Canada, for either hunting or target shooting sporting activities. Rather, they were being used to harm individual Canadians and, in some tragic cases, many individual Canadians. We've done the right thing, Mr. Chair, and we
The Chair: We'll go to Mr. Nater next.
Mr. John Nater (PerthWellington, CPC): Mr. Chair, agricultural societies across rural Ontario are making the difficult decision to cancel their fall fairs this year. Some of these fall fairs have been around since before Confederation. Not only is this a terrible loss for these communities of important community events, but it's also putting a significant financial strain on these agricultural societies. What action is the government taking to support agricultural societies in Canada?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, what we've done is we've put forward monies to support our regional development agencies. These agencies have the mandate and the ability to support local initiatives, including the events the member has highlighted. This is more than doubling the budget that currently exists, so that we have sufficient resources to support communities and these very important local events.
Mr. John Nater: Mr. Chair, the arts and culture industry has a massive impact on local economies. In my riding alone we have the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, the Stratford Festival, Drayton Entertainment and Stratford Summer Music. The postponement and cancellation of the seasons of these important cultural institutions is having a massive impact on the hospitality industry, including local restaurants, hotels and bed and breakfasts. Many of these businesses are small businesses and owner-operated businesses that are falling through the cracks in the government's programs that have been introduced. How will the government address the blind spot in their programs for small businesses in communities like this, which rely on the tourism and the arts and culture industries?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, clearly, we understand how important these organizations are to these communities. That is why we allocated $500 million to respond to the specific financial needs of arts, heritage and sports organizations, to help them be more resilient through this difficult time. Last week we rolled out the funding of this announcement, and we look forward to engaging with communities across the country.
Mr. John Nater: Mr. Chair, 1.8 million jobs are attributed to the tourism industry in Canada. Among these, 740,000 are related to international travelling. No one wants to see the borders reopen until it's safe to do so, but can the government provide clarity on what criteria will be used to provide some information to these tourism operators of how, when and under what criteria international borders will be reopened?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the member opposite for his view that we need to be cautious and prudent and put the health and safety of Canadians first. That is very much the view of our government as well. When it comes to international borders, the health and safety of Canadians is absolutely the first criterion we are going to look at. Of course, we will be looking at the situation with coronavirus
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Nater.
Mr. John Nater: Mr. Chair, many Canadians continue to fall through the cracks of programs announced by this government. One of my constituents only recently returned to the workforce after spending many years out of the workforce raising her children. As such, she doesn't qualify under the $5,000 minimum requirement for income over the past 12 months. How will the government address these people who are falling through the cracks?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr. Chair, we are mindful of the very difficult circumstances in which many Canadians who have a foot in two places find themselves. We have a number of different measures to help them and we're going to continue to do so.
Mr. John Nater: Mr. Chair, it has been reported that as many as 15% of farmers and farm families in Canada could face going out of business and bankruptcy because of the massive impact that COVID-19 is having on agriculture in Canada. Business risk management programs are not working for these farm families, and the processing capacity is simply not there for farmers and for farm families, especially in the beef and pork industries. How will the government immediately address the short-term processing capacity issues found in the beef and pork sectors? When will they finally live up to the commitment of a complete review of the business risk management programs?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, I've been holding discussions with my provincial counterparts to review the risk management programs. With respect to the AgriStability program, we've offered producers some accommodations and pushed back the enrolment date to July3. We've also increased, from 50% to 75%, the advance payment that they can obtain quickly, in provinces where this is possible. We've also posted a calculator online. So before they say that the program isn't working, I encourage them to use this calculator to find out how much they can receive.
Mr. John Nater: Mr. Chair, this government continues to show a blind spot for small businesses in Canada. Many don't qualify for the CEBA because they don't have a high enough payroll or because they don't have a business account. So many small businesses are falling through the cracks. Will the government expand the criteria so that small businesses in my community and across Canada can qualify for the important assistance they need at this time?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, I would like to remind my honourable colleague that we did expand the eligibility criteria threshold from $50,000 down to $20,000 so that more businesses could be eligible, and on the top end, for salaries, from $1 million to $1.5 million. That is why we have seen 590,000 small business loans issued. That's a testament to the program.
The Chair: The next question will go to Mr. Maguire.
Mr. Larry Maguire (BrandonSouris, CPC): Mr. Chair, hog and beef producers have seen drastic price drops. Producers are telling me that they would use the western livestock price insurance program if the premiums were affordable, which they are not. Will the Minister of Agriculture work with the industry to make the premiums affordable so that producers can have price protection against these market fluctuations?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr. Chair, we're working closely with the industry and my provincial counterparts to identify the best programs to help producers in this difficult time. Last week, we announced specific programs for the meat sector: $77.5million for processors, $50million for beef producers and $50million for pork producers.
Mr. Larry Maguire: Mr. Chair, Chez Angela Bakery in Brandon has seen tremendous success since it opened two years ago. Due to this growth and the eligibility criteria for the wage subsidy program, their revenues would have to decline much further than 30% in order for them to receive help. Will the Minister of Finance amend the eligibility for the wage subsidy program so that Chez Angela and similar businesses can apply?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC)): The honourable Minister of Industry.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. I want to highlight the fact that we did make an amendment. When we originally proposed this initiative, the threshold was 30% for the month of March. Now businesses will only need to show a 15% decline in revenue, and businesses will have the option of using January and February as a reference period to show revenue losses, or of using the same time last year. This reflects, again, our ability to understand the needs of businesses, to act quickly and to make sure that they benefit from this very important initiative.
Mr. Larry Maguire: They still don't qualify, Mr. Chair. The Blarney Stone restaurant in Killarney has repeatedly asked the Minister of Finance if they could refinance their loans through the Canada small business financing program. Will the Minister of Finance give small business owners the ability to refinance their existing loans through the program, yes or no?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, again, we've demonstrated flexibility and nimbleness when it comes to these financing options. I'd also like to highlight another very important initiative that was mentioned earlier, the deferring of GST/HST and customs duty payments for businesses for the next three months. This will help 3.2 million business owners and entrepreneurs across the country. Again, it's another initiative to put more money in the pockets of businesses as they deal with this unprecedented health care crisis.
Mr. Larry Maguire: Mr. Chair, the Liberals still haven't fixed the payroll eligibility problems for many small business owners who need to access the zero-interest loans available in CEBA. Can the minister provide any rationale for why countless small businesses are not being allowed to access these loans?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, as of today, 590,000 small business loans have been issued. I think that's contrary to the point the member opposite is making. Clearly we recognize that we need to be agile and that we need to understand the needs of businesses. That's why we made changes to this particular program. We'll continue to listen to businesses. I can assure the member opposite that 590,000 small business loans is no small feat.
Mr. Larry Maguire: Mr. Chair, Canada has some of the best competitive sport shooters in the world. The Liberals' order in council on firearms will put an end to many Canadians being able to represent our country. Can the Minister of Public Safety list even one of these sport shooting competitions, which will now be illegal due to his order in council?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable Minister of Public Safety.
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, it's an important question because sport shooting is a very important tradition for many Canadian sport shooters. I want to assure the member opposite that the weapons we have prohibited by this order in council were not designed for sport shooting and are not used in the Olympics or Paralympic Games. They are not included in this and therefore have no impact on that activity of legitimate sport shooting.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): You have time for one more short question, Mr. Maguire.
Mr. Larry Maguire: Mr. Chair, statistics show that women are more likely to live paycheque to paycheque, so women continue to be disproportionately impacted by this pandemic in a negative way. Many are worried they won't have a job to go back to. Will the government commit to helping women who are bearing this financial burden return to the workforce?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr. Chair, this is a very good question. I would love to have a lot of time to answer it. The answer is yes, of course. We are making sure that many of our measures do not disproportionately impact women, because when women succeed, all Canadians succeed.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now continue with Mr.Blanchette-Joncas.
Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLes Basques, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. It's a privilege to be here in the House today to represent the people of Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLesBasques, but also to serve as the BlocQubcois tourism critic. Tourism in Quebec is a significant economic engine and wealth creator. This industry is vital to the regions of Quebec, as I'll demonstrate. The tourism industry in Quebec generates over $15billion in economic spinoffs and employs more than 400,000workers. In Quebec, one in tenjobs is connected to the tourism industry. Every dollar spent on tourism generates about 70cents in the Quebec economy. The tourism industry consists of over 30,000businesses, and two-thirds of these businesses are outside the major centres in the Quebec City and Montreal regions. In the tourism industry, 82% of businesses have fewer than 20employees. This shows once again the need to support this industry. I heard my honourable colleague on the other side of the House say that a plan was in place for the tourism industry. I want to hear what he has to say about this plan. To date, what specific measures has the government taken to support the tourism industry?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr.Chair, I want to thank my colleague for his question. He's right. The situation is very difficult for all regions of our country and for Quebec. That's why we've invested in regional development. These investments will improve the situation in the tourism sector. These investments will provide assistance for festivals, programs and other initiatives. We'll continue to work with my colleague and the other members to find solutions that will improve the situation.
Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas: Mr.Chair, I'm not sure that I fully understood the plan. However, I can say that the people in the tourism industry don't understand the plan, because they're still waiting for it. One issue in the tourism industry involves fixed costs. Initially, we asked that part of the wage subsidy be set aside to cover fixed costs. The government implemented the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance. The assistance covers 75% of commercial rental payments under $50,000, and property owners pay the remaining 25%. To date, how many applications have been submitted under this program?
Hon. Bill Morneau: The wage subsidy is very significant. However, we know that there are other fixed costs. That's why we've taken other measures, such as the measures related to credit and rent. We've combined several measures that will help companies bridge the gap until the end of the crisis.
Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas: We expect to hear a figure and not necessarily words. We could see that the program was ineffective, particularly for seasonal businesses, including businesses in the tourism industry. Businesses need to have suspended operations or to show a decline of at least 70% in operations since the start of the public health crisis. How can a tourism business that hasn't yet launched operations show a decline of 70%? It doesn't make sense. A recent survey conducted by the Canadian Federation of Independent Business shows that only one in ten businesses can benefit from this assistance. Yet these businesses need the assistance. Does the government believe that commercial rent assistance is effective even though only one in ten businesses can benefit from it?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr.Chair, I know that the situation is very difficult. That's why we've introduced another option. Through the community futures development corporations and business development centres, we're providing $71million to businesses and organizations in rural communities by giving them much-needed access to capital. This investment will help many businesses in Quebec, particularly in the tourism sector.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr.Blanchette-Joncas, you have one minute left.
Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas: Mr.Chair, in my humble opinion, one out of ten businesses amounts to 10%. This figure isn't very high and is far from a passing grade. What does the government plan to do? Does it plan to implement an expanded program to support businesses in the tourism and seasonal industries to ensure that fixed costs are more fully covered?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr.Chair, we have a strategy. We've invested in regional development and in small and medium-sized businesses. We've helped the workers and we'll continue to work with the provincial governments to find solutions. We must work together, particularly in the tourism sector, because the situation in the sector is very serious. I'm sure that we can find solutions to help improve the situation for people in the tourism sector.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now continue with Mr. Van Bynen.
Mr. Tony Van Bynen (NewmarketAurora, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I would like to inform you that I will be splitting my time with the member for Kingston and the Islands. Mr. Chair, last week was Mental Health Week. We know that the COVID-19 pandemic has caused a great deal of stress and uncertainty for all Canadians and that during this uncertain time, it is normal for many people to feel increased anxiety, depression and mental health issues. In fact, a poll by the Canadian Mental Health Association's Ontario branch showed that 61% of respondents were worried about the mental health of a loved one and more than half of the respondents were worried about their own mental health. In the Standing Committee on Health, we've also heard from many witnesses that our front-line heroes, working around the clock to protect us from the virus and to help others recover, are at great risk of physical and mental burnout. This shows how seriously Canadians need supports for their mental health and well-being during this most trying time. Can the Minister of Health tell my constituents what the government is doing to support Canadians during this uncertain time?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, I thank the member for NewmarketAurora for that very insightful question. In fact, we've been very worried about Canadians' mental health as resulting from the pandemic, but even prior to that we knew that we needed to create rapidly more tools for Canadians across the country, no matter where they lived. We've worked very closely with our provincial and territorial partners, for example, to amplify the work that they're doing through increased supports, financial supports. We also launched Wellness Together Canada, which is a digital portal, where all Canadians can get access to tools they can use to help with the circumstances they find themselves in and to get the information they need during COVID-19. It also allows Canadians to connect to paid professionals who can provide support in a variety of different ways, whether it's over the telephone, through email or by text, understanding that Canadians have different ways of connecting that work for them. We've also partnered with a number of organizations that provide supports to Canadians, many of the crisis hotlines, for example, that are working double-time or triple-time to try to keep up with the volume of demand. This is a difficult time for all Canadians and we will continue to work to ensure Canadians have the supports they need.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll go to Mr. Gerretsen, from Kingston and the Islands.
Mr. Mark Gerretsen (Kingston and the Islands, Lib.): Mr. Chair, students from across the country have been significantly impacted by the effects of COVID-19. As we know, thousands of post-secondary students depend on employment throughout the summer in order to pay for expenses throughout their academic year. Unfortunately the pandemic has resulted in the closure of many businesses and organizations that would normally employ students who work during the summer. Thousands of students are now left without the financial means they were depending on to pay for their post-secondary educational expenses. In response to the concerns raised by students, the government announced the creation of the Canada emergency student benefit, which will provide students with the assistance they need to make it through these uncertain financial times. I represent a riding that has multiple post-secondary institutions, and my constituents have been asking when they should expect to apply for the Canada emergency student benefit. Can the President of the Treasury Board please give us an update on the status of the Canada emergency student benefit, and in particular, when students will be able to start accessing this benefit, and also confirm if and how it may be retroactive?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr. Chair, I would first like to thank the member for Kingston and the Islands for his strong advocacy in favour of young Canadians in his riding and across Canada. Mr. Chair, our government is committed to ensuring that young Canadians have the support that they need during this very difficult time. That's why we are investing $9 billion to support students and recent graduates affected by COVID-19. The measures include doubling the Canada student grants, raising the cap on student loans, creating new employment opportunities for students and launching the Canada emergency student benefit. I'm pleased to share with the House that the application period for the Canada emergency student benefit will commence on May 15. That is this Friday. This benefit will provide $1,250 a month to eligible students or $2,000 for students who have disabilities or dependants. Mr. Chair, when Canada emerges from this pandemic, we want to make sure that students are in a financial position to continue their studies so that they can pursue fruitful careers and help build a strong Canada.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll wait a few seconds before moving on to the next five-minute period to allow the console operator to switch with someone else. We'll next go to the honourable member for Calgary Skyview, Ms. Sahota.
Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Victims of human trafficking continue to suffer during this crisis. Many are facing worse conditions and additional barriers to escaping human trafficking than before the pandemic. The government has been completely silent on this issue, and now funding to fight human trafficking is being taken away from front-line organizations. Why would the government choose to do this at this vulnerable time?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, human trafficking is, as we all know, one of the most heinous crimes imaginable. Our government is working to eliminate all instances of it. To combat human trafficking, we've launched a comprehensive national strategy that brings together federal efforts under one strategic framework. We have backed that new move with $75 million in additional investments, and the new strategy now strengthens Canada's ability to fight this abhorrent attack on human rights and human dignity.
Ms. Jag Sahota: Mr. Chair, this simply isn't good enough. The government is letting down our most vulnerable Canadians. We know that human trafficking hasn't stopped during this pandemic, and these front-line organizations have received the message that supporting them in fighting these heinous crimes is not a priority. What is the minister going to do to rectify this situation?
Hon. Bill Blair: As I said, we have developed a national strategy to combat human trafficking. We've made $75 million in additional investments, and this new strategy takes a whole-of-government approach. It empowers victims and survivors to regain their self-confidence and control over their lives, and it will prevent more of these crimes from taking place. It provides better protection and support for those most vulnerable to human trafficking, and it will ensure that police and prosecutors have the resources to prosecute these traffickers for their heinous crimes. Mr. Chair, we'll continue to work collaboratively with victims groups and to provide the supports that are required.
Ms. Jag Sahota: Mr. Chair, more vulnerable Canadians continue to be let down. There are effective medications that have been developed for those living with cystic fibrosis, yet this medication is not available here. We know that the pharmaceutical company has not been able to apply to market this drug in Canada because of the changes to the PMPRB, which have been heavily criticized by stakeholders and patients. Will the minister delay the July 1 implementation date and review the regulations so that drugs like Trikafta are made available in Canada?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, there are two separate issues in that question, so I will talk about the PMPRB. As a government, we are committed, as you know, to increasing affordability of and accessibility to Canadian medications, to medications across Canada, and the PMPRB regulatory amendments will help Canadians to be able to afford their prescriptions. Canada will continue to be an important market for new medicines. In fact, many countries with much lower prices for medicine gain access to new medicines in the same time frame as Canada, or even faster.
Ms. Jag Sahota: Mr. Chair, for those living with a rare disease, every single day can be a struggle. We know the importance of lowering drug costs, but not at the cost of life-saving drugs not being available here in Canada. Waiting years for the government to reduce regulations is not an option. We also know that the nature of the disease makes those people more susceptible to contracting COVID-19, and they are at a higher risk of its being lethal. Why is this government continuing to let those with CF struggle and suffer needlessly?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: I believe the member opposite is talking about the drug Trikafta, and many cystic fibrosis patient groups have been advocating having access to it in Canada. In fact, the manufacturer of Trikafta has not submitted an application to market this product in Canada. However, that said, we do have a special access program for drugs that are not marketed in Canada. As of May 6, Health Canada approved 95 applications for 98 patients to access Trikafta through the special access program. I would encourage all patients with cystic fibrosis to speak to their doctor to ensure that they too can apply through the special access program.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): You have time for one short question of 45 seconds.
Ms. Jag Sahota: We know the importance of lowering drug costs. As you know, 4,300 people suffer from this rare genetic disease. Most of them are children and young adults. One young woman from Calgary is a CF champion, fighting for her passion to be a famous opera singer. She's very talented. Her reality of living with CF has meant that she has had many visits to the hospital and had many health crises that have made singing impossible for a time. CF patients are waiting for this drug, which was fast-tracked in other countries. Now it seems that the changes to the PMPRB will cause further delays or complications. Will the minister delay the implementation and review the PMPRB?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Honourable Minister, please provide a short response.
Hon. Patty Hajdu: I will just repeat that the manufacturer has not applied to sell this drug in Canada.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Now we will go to Mr. Lobb of HuronBruce.
Mr. Ben Lobb (HuronBruce, CPC): Thank you very much. On July 25, 2019, after the federal-provincial-territorial agriculture meeting, the agriculture minister promised big changes in 2020 for programs like AgriStability and AgriRecovery. Besides a pilot program in a couple of provinces and an application deadline, is there anything else you would like to report?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Yes, Mr.Chair. Since the July meeting in QuebecCity with the provincial and territorial ministers of agriculture, we've been working to improve the AgriStability program. This issue remains a priority, and it's included in my mandate letter. However, at this time, we're responding to emergencies that go beyond what the various risk management programs can provide to our producers.
Mr. Ben Lobb: You can appreciate, Minister, the issue we're dealing with here. The United States Department of Agriculture has allocated $19 billion to farmers, $16 billion of that in direct support. The program that was offered last week, $252 million, was a mere fraction of what the United States is getting. If the minister is telling farmers to bank on the existing business risk management program, it's not going to work. Countless numbers of pork farmers, just in my riding alone, have one thousand, two thousand, three thousand head of hogs ready to be shipped within the near future. They will lose $70 a head. AgriStability isn't going to cut it. We need an immediate program to help out these hard-working pork farmers.
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: I fully understand my colleague's comments. That's why we announced specific programs for the meat sector: $77.5million for processors, $50million for beef producers and $50million for pork producers. We've also increased, improved and facilitated access to AgriStability. One pork producer tried the calculator and told me that he could quickly receive $11 per head of hog. Alberta's agriculture minister even publicly stated that some producers could obtain the desired amount of $20 per head using the AgriStability program.
Mr. Ben Lobb: Mr. Chair, you can see the problem right there with the math. The minister just said that one of her pork producers is going to get $11. They are losing $70. There's a $59-per-head gap, times likely several thousand head of hogs in their barns. Let's go to another trying issue with agriculture. It's the carbon tax. I know that the government has their position on the carbon tax, and I know that I'm not going to change it, but I want to give the members of Parliament across the way, the government, an idea of what a pork farmer might go through. A pork farmer sent me their bill for February 26 to March 24. Their natural gas bill was about $2,400. In there was close to $500 in federal carbon tax. Farmers manage their woodlots ethically. They have environmental farm plans. They have nutrient management plans. They get no credit for any of the carbon sequestration and ethical environmental management on their farm, yet every month they are asked to pay a carbon tax. It just doesn't seem fair. I want the minister's opinion on that.
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: As you know, our pollution pricing policy is designed to build a clean economy. We've introduced exemptions for agriculture. On one hand, emissions from animal and vegetable production are not subject to carbon pricing, and on the other hand, farm fuels and other fuels delivered to off-farm points-of-sale are exempt. We've also provided partial reimbursements for propane and natural gas used in commercial greenhouses. We have already done a lot. We encourage producers to take advantage of the business risk management programs, and we are ready to do more. We've already shown that, and we will continue to do so.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): There is time for one short question and response. Go ahead, Mr. Lobb.
Mr. Ben Lobb: Mr. Chair, I know the Minister of Agriculture has toured my riding. She knows very well what the lay of the land is here. What about pork farmers? What about chicken farmers? What about hens? What about drying in the fall? All those farmers pay a carbon tax, and there is no program for them. They pay and they pay and they pay, and what makes it worse is that they are given no credit for the environmental work they do on their farms.
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: It's true that our producers work incredibly hard to protect the environment and ensure the well-being of their animals. That's important, to be sure, but I'd like to put the impact of pollution pricing into perspective. To put these estimates into context, AAFC used data from agricultural tax data programs to show the impact on a per-farm basis as a percentage of total operating costs. The estimates ranged from $210 to $819 per farm and 0.05% to 0.42% of total farm operating expenses.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We now move on to Mr.Lehoux.
Mr. Richard Lehoux (Beauce, CPC): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Being from a rural area, myself, I can assure you that people who live in rural communities are resourceful and resilient. Instead of staying cooped up in their homes, they are doing their best to retool and save the companies they work for. One of the only options they have is to work from home. Unfortunately, though, they don't have access to the tools they need. Cellular and Internet networks are inadequate, even non-existent in some cases. I want to know, not whether the government is going to help these Canadians join the 21st century, but when. Can you give us any assurances and, above all, a timetable for a real plan?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: I agree with the member. The situation is very serious. High-speed Internet is not a luxury; it's a necessity. That's why we launched the connect to innovate program. My fellow minister Ms. Monsef will be introducing the next strategy to improve the situation in all regions, especially rural areas. Finding a solution is absolutely imperative.
Mr. Richard Lehoux: I don't think the minister understood my question. In the 2019 budget, the government promised to connect all Canadians to the Internet by 2030. This is 2020. That's 10years away. People don't need reliable Internet service 10years down the road. The pandemic has made the need even more acute right now. When, then, will people have Internet access? I'm simply asking you for a date now.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr.Chair, under the last budget, we launched a $1.7-billion program to support broadband infrastructure. That's a lot of money for high-speed Internet. My fellow minister Ms.Monsef is in charge of the program. We also introduced the connect to innovate program, which has helped 900communities all over the country. We will keep working to make the lives of people who live in rural areas better, and we will find solutions to provide high-speed Internet access.
Mr. Richard Lehoux: Mr.Chair, you no doubt know that Beauce is the cradle of small and medium-sized businesses. On March27, the Prime Minister introduced the emergency wage subsidy to help businesses cope with the pandemic. Unfortunately, general partnerships were overlooked. Of the many constituents in my riding who have reached out to me on the subject, one, in particular, has contacted me three times since mid-April. I still don't have anything to tell him because the government is dragging its feet. We'd like to get a clear and specific answer. The same goes for sole proprietors, who were also overlooked. When is the government going to include these businesses in the current programs?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr.Chair, we announced in financial support for vulnerable small and medium-sized businesses that are not eligible for the measures already in place and that are struggling with cash flow issues. We've also invested $71million to support businesses and organizations by giving them access to capital in rural communities. As well, we've invested in programs for rural areas, and we will continue to make investments to help small and medium-sized businesses.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr.Lehoux, please keep it brief.
Mr. Richard Lehoux: All right, Mr.Chair. The Canadian Federation of Agriculture asked the federal government for an agriculture and agri-food emergency fund of $2.6billion to help maintain food security in Canada in response to COVID-19. Will the minister address the federation's request? Minister, I'd like you to give us a date.
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: We already have a host of business risk management programs, through which, $1.6billion is available to producers annually. More support is actually available, even through those programs, since they meet the demand. We are prepared to do more, and we will. I urge producers to apply for the AgriStability program and to use the funds in their AgriInvest accounts. Some $2.3billion is available through that program.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to the honourable member for LangleyAldergrove, Mr. Van Popta.
Mr. Tako Van Popta (LangleyAldergrove, CPC): Mr. Chair, the government's wage subsidy program is designed to help traditional companies, not high-growth companies. For example, I was talking to Ron, who operates an engineering firm in my riding that specializes in designing and building very expensive machines for their ever-expanding overseas markets. Business is down, but not by the requisite 30%. Of course not, since they're in high-growth mode, but just recently they had to lay off some very talented staff. Can the minister confirm that the wage subsidy program can be expanded or adapted to deal with high-growth companies that will play such a key role in Canada's economic relaunch?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, my honourable colleague is absolutely correct. We, the government, take enormous pride in our small businesses, particularly the start-ups and the high-growth firms. They're going to be absolutely essential for our economic recovery, and we know that some of them are ineligible for the wage subsidy. That is why we introduced a $250-million program in the industrial research assistance program through the National Research Council, strictly targeting and focusing on those high-growth firms that were ineligible for the wage subsidy, so that they can provide the wage support to keep those highly skilled individuals in Canada.
Mr. Tako Van Popta: Mr. Chair, there is another category of businesses that are falling through the cracks and feel they are being left behind by the wage subsidy program. Those are recently merged companies. For example, there is a trucking company in my riding that is significantly bigger this year than it was last year as a result of some key acquisitions and mergers late last year. All of the legacy companies by themselves would qualify individually for the wage subsidy, but the merged company does not. Can the minister confirm that the wage subsidy program is sufficiently flexible to accommodate recently merged companies?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, again I want to thank my honourable colleague for his question. He is identifying unique pain points that exist within the overall economy with specific examples of companies that are not able to access some of the programming we have provided. I do want to highlight, when it comes to the wage subsidy, that we have made changes to the revenue thresholds to make more companies eligible. The specific example that the member opposite raises is something that is under consideration.
Mr. Tako Van Popta: Mr. Chair, the government's commercial rent assistance program discriminates against certain tenants based solely on whether their landlord has a mortgage on the subject building. I was talking to Leslie the other day. She manages a number of commercial office buildings in my riding. Some of these buildings have mortgages and some don't, and it all depends on what they were able to negotiate with their banker. Leslie is having a very hard time explaining to her tenants why some will qualify for the rental subsidy and some won't, depending on which building they are in. Can the government confirm that the nonsensical mortgage requirement in the rent subsidy program is gone?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, the approach that was taken on trying to assist small businesses with rent is very much based on the fact that this is a provincial jurisdiction, so we have used the mortgage system as a way to do it. It is, in fact, not nonsensical. That said, we are looking at this particular issue. It's something that is under consideration. We expect that we will find a way to ensure that those landlords who don't have mortgages can work with the CMHC to have the appropriate approach to be eligible for this program.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): You have about one minute left, Mr. Van Popta. Go ahead with a short question.
Mr. Tako Van Popta: Many people in my riding have reached out to me to say they are quite disturbed that their favourite hunting and sport shooting firearms are now on the banned list. Can the minister inform Canadians how many Canadian taxpayer dollars are going to go to the buyback program for legal gun owners and how far that money would go if it were to be diverted to something useful, such as more border controls to stop the illegal importation of firearms?
Hon. Bill Blair: Our first priority is the protection and safety of Canadians. We've seen an unacceptable rise in gun violence right across our community. All weapons are being regulated in our country. Some, such as handguns, represent such a significant risk that we strongly restrict them. Some weapons, quite frankly, are completely unsuitable for any sporting or hunting activity, such as weapons designed for soldiers to engage in combat with other soldiers. We have now prohibited those weapons. The saving of lives is worth an investment in public safety. I want to assure the member we will bring forward legislation that will facilitate an appropriate buyback program. I look forward to a discussion in this House with the member opposite on how that can be done to ensure public safety and to ensure that we do it in as effective a way as possible.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to Mr. Manly.
Mr. Paul Manly: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to thank the government and ministers present for the rapid relief that they've provided to Canadians. I know the constituents in my riding really appreciate that. I'd like to thank them also for being responsive to the MPs who have brought forward gaps in the program. The CERB requirements recognize dividend income for eligibility for the Canada emergency business account, CEBA, but the Canada emergency business account does not recognize dividends or contract payments. I've been contacted by many small business owners who have been legally paying themselves with dividends for years, but these companies cannot apply for the CEBA even though this might save them from bankruptcy during this crisis. Will the government make the necessary changes to allow dividend income to be admissible for CEBA eligibility?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: I'd like to thank the honourable colleague for his very thoughtful question and his advocacy in looking for different solutions and in working with us to help small businesses, not only in his riding but across the country as well. He's absolutely correct that the Canada emergency business account has been successful, as 590,000 loans have been issued. That's a reflection of some of the changes that we introduced, which made the criteria more generous so that more businesses could obtain assistance. He has raised the issue of dividends. As I said before, we continue to work with Canadians and Canadian businesses and colleagues in this House to see how we can assist more Canadians, not less of them, and we'll continue to endeavour to do that.
Mr. Paul Manly: Mr. Chair, there are still many Canadians stranded overseas who are trying to return to Canada. Some have no assurance that their non-Canadian spouse will be allowed into Canada with them. Many are being forced to make an impossible choice between sheltering in place overseas or separating from their spouse in order to return home. Will the government remove unnecessary barriers and allow these Canadians to return to Canada immediately with their spouses?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, in an effort to flatten the curve and to protect Canadians, we've taken a number of extraordinary measures at the border and we have restricted non-essential travel of people coming into Canada. While Canadian citizens and permanent residents will always be admissiblesubject, of course, to a 14-day quarantine upon entry foreign nationals are subject to travel restrictions. For individuals to be eligible to travel to Canada, their travel must be considered essential travel, consistent with the emergency order put in place. I recognize and very much respect the spirit of the member's question. We recognize these are difficult situations. It is not our desire to keep families apart. I want to assure that each situation will be decided on a case-by-case basis based on the information made available to border service officers. I welcome any inquiries he may have. If he reaches out to my office, we'll help in any way we can.
Mr. Paul Manly: Mr. Chair, the Alberta energy regulator has suspended a wide range of environmental monitoring requirements for oil sands companies during this pandemic. This includes environmental reporting. It includes wetland wildlife and bird monitoring, even though Canada is a signatory to the international migratory bird treaty. Water that escapes from storm ponds doesn't need to be tested. Air quality programs, including for first nations communities, have been reduced. Testing for leaks of methane, a powerful greenhouse gas, has been suspended. This is after the federal government has provided $750 million in funding for methane emission reductions. The federal government has also just committed $1.7 billion to clean up orphaned oil wells. That message, clearly, is about the negligence of the Alberta government. It is something corporations should be paying for. Will the federal government hold the Alberta government to account and withhold energy sector relief funding until these environmental regulations are reinstated?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question and for his very collaborative approach with our government on a number of issues. I would like to thank him for this particular question and his particular reference to methane, because it gives me an opportunity to highlight some very important progress that the federal government made this week in working with the Province of Alberta. Just yesterday Alberta joined B.C. and Saskatchewan and published its own draft regulations on methane. This will allow us, in working with Alberta, to work on equivalency on methane, which will allow us to work towards standing down the federal system in those jurisdictions. This is tremendously important, because it will allow us to cut methane emissions by 45% by 2025. It's hugely important for fighting climate change together.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Now we'll go to the honourable member for Hamilton Mountain, Mr. Duvall.
Mr. Scott Duvall (Hamilton Mountain, NDP): Mr. Chair, I was pleased to hear about extending the tax deadline to October 1 in yesterday's announcement for seniors. After many discussions with the Minister of Seniors, I was glad to hear that she was listening to the NDP and many others on making this happen. It stops a lot of interruptions for people who couldn't get their taxes done. Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has been showing us in stark terms that Canadian seniors are struggling to make ends meet in Canada. Before enduring the crisis, it was clear that OAS and GIS benefits levels were just not enough for seniors to keep up with the cost of living, so we need to fix this now. Why is the government refusing to increase OAS and GIS benefits to lift seniors out of poverty on a permanent basis?
Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors): Mr. Chair, I want to thank my honourable colleague for giving me this opportunity to rise today and talk about how we are supporting Canadian seniors during this pandemic. Many Canadian seniors are facing significant health, economic and social challenges as a result of the pandemic. They built this country and now they need our help. Our government is taking significant action to provide Canadian seniors with greater financial security and give them the help they need during this crisis. We're building on past measures by introducing a one-time tax-free payment of $300 for those who receive OAS and of $200 for those receiving GIS, totalling $500 to seniors who receive both. We are also supporting community-based projects to improve the quality of life for seniors through the New Horizons for Seniors program, and investing in other charities. Seniors need our help, and we are delivering for them.
Mr. Scott Duvall: Mr. Chair, I was glad to hear that the Minister of Seniors is acknowledging the financial burden that our seniors are taking on. She mentioned the prescription dispensing fees, the added costs of their groceries and the delivery charges. I was glad that the Prime Minister acknowledged the heavy toll seniors are facing, and that they helped to shape this country and now they need our help. A surprising statement that I heard yesterday was the Treasury Board and the seniors minister's admission in their press briefing that the level of assistance being provided to Canadian seniors is quite low. Why is the seniors minister acknowledging all the burdens they're trying to help the seniors with, but the response they're giving is just a very low way of handling it?
Hon. Deb Schulte: I really do want to acknowledge my honourable colleague for his advocacy. I just want to assure him that while the government remains committed to implementing policies in our platform, we are focused on this health crisis right now. We have provided financial support to seniors sooner through the GST credit top-up, and now with additional payments to OAS and GIS recipients. This year we are investing over twice as much on financial assistance for seniors as we committed to in our platform, which is $3.8 billion compared to $1.56 billion in the platform. Seniors need our help and we're delivering. These payments have provided greater support for the most vulnerable seniors. Just to give some details, for those on OAS and GIS, they will get, in conjunction with the GST credit top-up, $875 per adult, and over $1,500 per couple. This is not an insignificant amount. This is a significant amount to support our seniors during this pandemic.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): You have about one minute left for both a question and a response. Go ahead, Mr. Duvall.
Mr. Scott Duvall: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The minister was talking about there being a maximum payment, if it's possible. What I've heard from seniors is this is a one-shot deal and it's an insult to them. They want some stability on an ongoing basis. We did make an agreement about two weeks ago that help would be implemented without delay on the seniors issue and for people with disabilities. Why did yesterday's announcement include only the people who are seniors, but not people with disabilities? Why have they been omitted? When can they expect help to come?
Hon. Deb Schulte: I just want to touch on the two points raised. On the one-time payment, we know that seniors need help now, and that's why it's important to get that money into seniors' accounts as soon as possible. That is why we're providing the one payment right away, instead of small amounts spread over months. In the coming weeks we will look at additional supports for other vulnerable Canadians. I just want to let him know we are working on additional measures.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll go now
Mr. Scott Duvall: I didn't hear anything about the disability
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The five minutes are finished. It is now over to Mrs.Gill, the member for Manicouagan.
Mrs. Marilne Gill: Thank you, Mr.Chair. I'll be sharing my time with the member for Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLesBasques. I have just one question. It's for the government, and this will be the fourth time I've asked today. When I go back home, what am I going to tell the people of Chandler, Amqui, Bic, Saint-Simon, Tadoussac and Harrington Harbour? Am I going to tell them that the government supports the Bloc Qubcois's proposal? We propose giving seasonal workers access to employment insurance benefits until next season, regardless of whether they received the CERB, how many hours they worked or how many they accumulated. Should I instead tell them that the Liberal government has nothing in store for them as they suffer through the crisis? The government hasn't managed to bridge the employment insurance gap, and is even planning to bring it to six, if not eight, months. That means they'll have nothing to put on the dinner table for the next year. I'd like an answer, Mr.Chair.
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr.Chair, I have three things to say in response to the member's important question. First, we obviously understand what she's saying. The work is seasonal, not the workers. The work they do is fundamental so they can support their families and their communities in eastern Quebec and other regions. Second, the CERB delivers significant assistance to those often vulnerable workers, the majority of whom would be able or certainly eager to find another job. Third, and finally, before any longer-term investments are made, it's important to keep in mind that those who may have received employment insurance benefits but who lost them in recent weeks or who do seasonal work are eligible for the CERB. That said, we are also looking ahead. We've already announced some very important measuresand we'll continue to do soin support of tourism, culture, agriculture, fisheries, forestry and many other key contributors to regional development in Quebec and elsewhere.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The member for Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLesBasques, Mr.Blanchette-Joncas, has the floor.
Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas: Mr.Chair, the situation my fellow member just described is of little comfort to those in Quebec's regions. To be frank, the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance program is a flop. According to the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, one in three businesses doesn't qualify for rent relief because it doesn't meet the 70% drop in revenues requirement. Half of businesses have indicated that their landlords won't be applying for the program because it's optional. Commercial landlords can choose to participate in the program or not. How is that going to help businesses, Mr.Chair? We are still trying to figure that out. Businesses, especially seasonal ones, need more support to cover their fixed costs. Will the government commit to reviewing the program, which is too restrictive for businesses and optional for landlords? The program must do more to help businesses, particularly seasonal ones, cover their fixed costs.
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, we know that businesses are, of course, very concerned about fixed costs. Our rent relief program is very significant. We haven't yet announced all the details, so it's much too soon to say that it's flawed. More information will be available in the next few days. At that point, we hope to be on the right track when it comes to fixed costs and rent.
Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas: I hope you're making adjustments. It's totally unacceptable that only 10% of businesses who need the relief can get it. What's more, the public health crisis has brought its share of change for businesses, particularly with the new health measures. They have to plan, implement preventative measures, have response plans, train staff and acquire the necessary equipment. In order to do those things, protect the public and reopen their doors, businesses have to assume the costs. Will the government commit to providing financial assistance to businesses, especially those in the tourism industry, so they can cover the costs of putting the new health measures in place?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: I know the situation is very serious in rural communities. That's why we've invested $71million in community futures development corporations, or CFDCs, and business development centres. Both of those will go a long way towards helping businesses in rural communities, and I have no doubt that we will continue working together to find other solutions.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Now we'll move on to the honourable member for Calgary Centre, Mr. McLean.
Mr. Greg McLean (Calgary Centre, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. One of the terms for accessing the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance, CECRA, is that you must have a mortgage on the property. One of the key terms of eligibility for this support is that the landlord owes money to a bank. Will the Minister of Finance tell us if this program was designed for the benefit of landlords and tenants or for the benefit of banks?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I appreciate the question from the member opposite. I think that it's important to know that commercial rent and landlord-tenant relationships are provincial jurisdictions. Therefore, as we embarked on an approach that could enable landlords and tenants to get to an agreement that would help both, we used the CMHC as a vehicle from which we could do that. We think that we've come up with a program that provides advantages for the landlords and advantages for the tenants, and we will be announcing details that will include how mortgages can be put in place for those landlords who don't currently have them.
Mr. Greg McLean: Brookfield Properties, a large Canadian firm, announced that its rent collections on commercial properties for April were 15% of the lease terms. Luckily, Brookfield has another company, Brookfield Business Partners, poised to help by buying up the distressed equity of the firms that owe them money. Did the Minister of Finance design CECRA with this outcome in mind, washing out individual investors and small companies and transferring that value into the hands of vulture financiers who hold all the cards?
Hon. Bill Morneau: In fact, Mr. Chair, we designed this program exactly with the idea in mind of the challenge that we're seeing. We're seeing that in many cases commercial tenants are not actually able to pay their rent, so landlords are not getting the rent that's due. Therefore, there's a mutual interest from tenants and from landlords in coming to an agreement. By providing funding through the mortgage system to those landlords, we recognize that we'll enable both of those two parts of the equation to come to an agreement that we think will be advantageous for the sector over the long term.
Mr. Greg McLean: In the past two months, the Bank of Canada has tripled the size of its balance sheet to almost $400 billion, with more to come, Mr. Chair. In the 2008 recession, the world's major economies endured quantitative easing on a previously unknown scale, most of which has not since been unwound. Canada endured a then-record $50-billion deficit, but we did not need to enter the uncertain world of QE, quantitative easing, as a result of the strength of Canada's oil and gas industry. Will the minister acknowledge that this government's oil and gas policy mismanagement has led to economic decline, necessitating hundreds of billions of dollars of quantitative easing?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, let me challenge one assumption implicit in the honourable member's question, the assumption that our government fails to understand the importance of the oil and gas sector to our economy. Let me quote some leaders from Alberta and their response to the lease program. Tim McMillan, CEO of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, said, I think this is essential. Not all companies are going to need to tap into this sort of liquidity...but some that are normally high-quality, stable companies likely will be looking for this program to provide a certain amount of liquidity for them. CAPP understands that we are supporting Canadian companies, including in the oil and gas sector, and I would urge the members opposite to understand that as well.
Mr. Greg McLean: BlackRock is one of the world's largest investment companies, managing trillions of dollars of bonds. It has lobbied regulators around the world to not be named a systemically important financial institution. The Bank of Canada unexpectedly engaged BlackRock as an adviser on its bond-buying plans. Is the Minister of Finance mindful of the conflict of interest that exists between the world's largest bond manager, BlackRock, and the advice it's giving the Bank of Canada on buying bonds?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, the member opposite might know that the Bank of Canada is independent from the government, and as such we are not privy to those decisions and support the continuing independence of the Bank of Canada from the government.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr. McLean, you may have just a short question.
Mr. Greg McLean: The finance sector seems to be getting well served during this economic crisis. Will the minister endeavour to provide a more balanced program of benefits going forward for the sake of the entire Canadian economy, and not just the Brookfields, the BlackRocks and the big banks?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I think the notion that one sector is being advantaged versus another actually defies the facts. More than 550,000 loans have gone out to small businesses in the form of $40,000 loans per business over a very short time period. Canada is a leader in this regard, and we'll continue to support businesses all across Canada with loans and support as they need it to get ourselves through this difficult time.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll go to the last five-minute round. We'll begin with the honourable member for Carleton, Mr. Poilievre.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Thank you, Mr. Chair. What is the dollar value of the total assets of the Government of Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, earlier today we were given incorrect information on the Auditor General. I would like to be able to provide more information at my next response.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What is the total dollar value of the assets of the Government of Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, the member for Carleton said that the previous government spent more on the Auditor General than the current government, and that is actually incorrect.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What is the total dollar value of the assets of the Government of Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, in fact, in the last full year of the Harper government, in 2014-15, the total spending on the Auditor General was $85.8 million.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What is the dollar value of the assets of the Government of Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, in the most recent year, 2018-19, the total spend was $92.4 million for the Auditor General, showing a 7.7% increase.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What are the total liabilities of the Government of Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I would just say it's shocking when people bring forward incorrect information to the House to try to make a point.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What are the total liabilities of the Government of Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we will continue to support Canadians through this time, with support not only for businesses but for individuals to get through and get a bridge to a better time.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What is just the dollar value?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, that's a continuing commitment.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: I know we shouldn't ask the minister about numbers. He's just the finance minister, after all, but what is the equity on the Government of Canada's balance sheet?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I would advise the member for Carleton to memorize those Auditor General figures for his next foray into the House of Commons.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: The minister has claimed that our balance sheet is strong. There are three components to a balance sheet: the assets, the liabilities, and the equity. The minister doesn't know any of the three, so clearly he doesn't actually know anything about our balance sheet. That's reassuring. According to the Auditor General, the negative net worth of our Government of Canada will be as much as $1 trillion by the end of this fiscal year. Can the minister, if he is familiar with any of these numbers, tell us if it is possible that his government will hit $1 trillion of debt this year?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I want to assure Canadians that our approach will be to continue to make investments on their behalf. That is available to us because of our strong fiscal position, but we will continue to take that approach, which we think is the appropriate one.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Will it be $1 trillion, yes or no?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, as I said, we will continue to focus on the importance of supporting Canadians.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What is the size of our current national debt?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I think what will happen as we do that is that we will allow ourselves to have a stronger economy at the end because of these investments.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What is the size of the national debt?
Hon. Bill Morneau: We have always seen, Mr. Chair, that these investments are not only supporting Canadians; they are supporting businesses so that we do have a strong economy and a strong fiscal position coming out of this.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Does the finance minister know the size of our national debt?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I will continue to focus our efforts, as we believe we should, on supporting Canadians through this time.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Does the finance minister know what $1 trillion is?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we are continuing to make investments that we believe are prudent in the face of this economic challenge, supporting Canadians as we know we need to.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What is the total dollar value of all the public and private debt in Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we know that by supporting Canadians, by continuing to make investments, we will enable Canadiens to have less debt themselves because that
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr. Poilievre.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What is the total debt, public and private, as a share of GDP in Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, the important consideration here is that the federal government is taking a position that we should support Canadians so that they don't take on the debt themselves.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Yet they have. They have record household debt, record corporate debt and growing government debt. The finance minister doesn't seem to know any of the basic numbers that would be required to govern the finances of the Government of Canada, so I will give him one last chance. Based on his latest briefings, what is the total size of Canada's national debt? If he doesn't know, can he have the humility and honesty just to say so?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for slightly more time in this response to say that we think the best thing to do during this time period is to invest in Canadians. We know that in that way they will not be supporting as much debt themselves. The government is in a fiscal position that enables us to take on debt at this time, which we think is appropriate to get our economy to a better position at the end of this crisis. We think that's appropriate. We will continue to take that approach. Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The hon. government House leader is rising on a point of order.
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: I have a point of order, Mr.Chair. I think we need to keep the interpreters in mind and the work they are doing, particularly when it comes to the flow and speed of questions. As the interpreters have already mentioned, they've suffered more injuries during this short time than during all of last year. Mr.Chair, I kindly ask that you make sure members take that into account. Thank you.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): I'm not sure whether that constitutes a point of order, but it's certainly an important reminder for members of the House to respect interpreters' working conditions. Please note that this is the end of our questions to ministers for this afternoon. Honourable members, please note too that pursuant to an order made on April 20, the House has been recalled. As such, the committee will now adjourn and the House sitting will begin shortly thereafter. The bells will be rung to call in members, and a parade will begin the sitting. This committee is now adjourned.
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Grad E: I guess .
Grad A: OK , we 're on . So just make sure that th your wireless mike is on , if you 're wearing a wireless .
Grad E: Check one . Check one .
Grad A: And you should be able to see which one {disfmarker} which one you 're on by , uh , watching the little bars change .
Grad B: So , which is my bar ? Mah ! Number one .
Grad A: Yep .
Grad E: Sibilance . Sibilance .
Grad A: So , actually , if you guys wanna go ahead and read digits now , as long as you 've signed the consent form , that 's alright .
Grad E: Are we supposed to read digits at the same time ?
Grad A: No . No .
Grad E: Oh , OK .
Grad A: Each individually . We 're talking about doing all at the same time but I think cognitively that would be really difficult . {vocalsound} To try to read them while everyone else is .
Grad E: Everyone would need extreme focus .
Grad A: So , when you 're reading the digit strings , the first thing to do is just say which transcript you 're on .
Professor C: Other way . We m We may wind up with ver We {disfmarker} we may need versions of all this garbage .
Grad B: For our stuff . Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad A: Um . So the first thing you 'd wanna do is just say which transcript you 're on .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad A: So . You can see the transcript ? There 's two large number strings on the digits ? So you would just read that one . And then you read each line with a small pause between the lines . And the pause is just so the person transcribing it can tell where one line ends and the other begins . And I 'll give {disfmarker} I 'll read the digit strings first , so can see how that goes . Um . Again , I 'm not sure how much I should talk about {pause} stuff before everyone 's here .
Professor C: Mmm . Well , we have one more coming .
Grad A: OK . Well , why don't I go ahead and read digit strings and then we can go on from there .
Professor C: OK . Well , we can start doing it .
Grad A: Thanks . So , uh , just also a note on wearing the microphones . All of you look like you 're doing it reasonably correctly , but you want it about two thumb widths away from your mouth , and then , at the corner . And that 's so that you minimize breath sounds , so that when you 're breathing , you don't breathe into the mike . Um . Yeah , that 's good . And uh {disfmarker} So , everyone needs to fill out , only once , the speaker form and the consent form . And the short form {disfmarker} I mean , you should read the consent form , but uh , the thing to notice is that we will give you an opportunity to edit a all the transcripts . So , if you say things and you don't want them to be released to the general public , which , these will be available at some point to anyone who wants them , uh , you 'll be given an opportunity by email , uh , to bleep out any portions you don't like . Um . On the speaker form just fill out as much of the information as you can . If you 're not exactly sure about the region , we 're not exactly sure either . So , don't worry too much about it . The {disfmarker} It 's just self rating . Um . And I think that 's about it . I mean , should I {disfmarker} Do you want me to talk at all about why we 're doing this and what this project is ?
Professor C: Um , yeah .
Grad A: or {disfmarker} ?
Professor C: No . There was {disfmarker} there was {disfmarker} Let 's see . Oh {disfmarker}
Grad E: Does Nancy know that we 're meeting in here ?
Grad B: I sent an email .
Professor C: She got an emai she was notified .
Grad E: Oh yeah , she got an e Yeah , yeah .
Professor C: Whether she knows {vocalsound} is another question . Um . So are the people going to be identified by name ?
Grad A: Well , what we 're gonna {disfmarker} we 'll anonymize it in the transcript . Um , but not in the audio .
Professor C: Right .
Grad A: So the
Professor C: OK . So , then in terms of people worrying about , uh , excising things from the transcript , it 's unlikely . Since it {disfmarker} it does isn't attributed . Oh , I see , but the a but the {disfmarker} but the {disfmarker}
Grad A: Right , so if I said , " Oh , hi Jerry , how are you ? " , we 're not gonna go through and cancel out the " Jerry "s .
Professor C: Yeah . Sure .
Grad A: Um , so we will go through and , in the speaker ID tags there 'll be , you know , M - one O seven , M - one O eight .
Professor C: Right .
Grad A: Um , but uh ,
Professor C: Right .
Grad A: um , it w uh , I don't know a good way of doing it on the audio , and still have people who are doing discourse research be able to use the data .
Professor C: OK . Mm - hmm . No , I {disfmarker} I wasn't complaining ,
Grad A: Yep .
Professor C: I just wanted to understand .
Grad A: Right .
Professor C: OK .
Grad B: Well , we can make up aliases for each of us .
Grad A: Yeah , I mean , whatever you wanna do is fine ,
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: OK .
Grad A: but we find that {disfmarker} We want the meeting to be as natural as possible . So , we 're trying to do real meetings .
Professor C: OK .
Grad A: And so we don't wanna have to do aliases
Professor C: Right .
Grad A: and we don't want people to be editing what they say .
Grad B: Right .
Grad A: So I think that it 's better just as a pro post - process to edit out every time you bash Microsoft .
Professor C: Right .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: You know ?
Professor C: Right . Um , OK . So why don't you tell us briefly
Grad A: OK . So th
Professor C: your {disfmarker} give {disfmarker} give your e normal schpiel .
Grad A: Um . So this is {disfmarker} The project is called Meeting Recorder and there are lots of different aspects of the project . Um . So my particular interest is in the PDA of the future . This is a mock - up of one . Yes , we do believe the PDA of the future will be made of wood . Um . {comment} The idea is that you 'd be able to put a PDA at the table at an impromptu meeting , and record it , and then be able to do querying and retrieval later on , on the meeting . So that 's my particular interest , is a portable device to do m uh , information retrieval on meetings . Other people are interested in other aspects of meetings . Um . So the first step on that , in any of these , is to collect some data . And so what we wanted is a room that 's instrumented with both the table top microphones , and these are very high quality pressure zone mikes , as well as the close talking mikes . What the close talk ng talking mikes gives us is some ground truth , gives us , um , high quality audio , um , especially for people who aren't interested in the acoustic parts of this corpus . So , for people who are more interested in language , we didn't want to penalize them by having only the far field mikes available . And then also , um , it 's a very , very hard task in terms of speech recognition . Um . And so , uh , on the far field mikes we can expect very low recognition results . So we wanted the near field mikes to at least isolate the difference between the two . So that 's why we 're recording in parallel with the close talking and the far field at the same time . And then , all these channels are recorded simultaneously and framed synchronously so that you can also do things like , um , beam - forming on all the microphones and do research like that . Our intention is to release this data to the public , um , probably through f through a body like the LDC . And , uh , just make it as a generally available corpus . Um . {vocalsound} There 's other work going on in meeting recording . So , we 're {disfmarker} we 're working with SRI , with UW , Um . NIST has started an effort which will include video . We 're not including video , obviously . And uh {disfmarker} and then also , um , a small amount of assistance from IBM . Is also involved . Um . Oh , and the digit strings , this is just a more constrained task . Um . So because the general environment is so challenging , we decided to {disfmarker} to do at least one set of digit strings to give ourselves something easier . And it 's exactly the same digit strings as in TI - digits , which is a common connected digits corpus . So we 'll have some , um , comparison to be able to be made .
Professor C: OK .
Grad A: Anything else ?
Professor C: No .
Grad A: OK , so when the l last person comes in , just have them wear a wireless . It should be on already . Um . Either one of those . And uh , read the digit strings and {disfmarker} and fill out the forms . So , the most important form is the consent form , so just be s be sure everyone signs that , if they consent .
Grad B: I 'm sure it 's pretty usual for meetings that people come late ,
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: so you will have to leave what you set .
Grad A: Right . And uh , just give me a call , which , my number 's up there when your meeting is over .
Professor C: Yep .
Grad A: And {disfmarker} I 'm going to leave the mike here but it 's n {nonvocalsound} Uh , but I 'm not gonna be on so don't have them use this one . It 'll just be sitting here .
Grad B: Input ? Yeah . There we go .
Professor C: By the way , Adam , we will be using the , uh , screen as well .
Grad B: Yep .
Professor C: So , you know . Wow ! Organization . So you guys who got email about this {pause} oh f uh , Friday or something about what we 're up to .
Grad E: No .
Grad F: No .
Grad B: I got it .
Grad E: What was the nature of the email ?
Professor C: Oh , this was about {pause} um , inferring intentions from features in context , and the words , like " s go to see " , or " visit " , or some
Grad B: Wel - we I {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Professor C: You didn't get it ?
Grad E: I don't think I did .
Professor C: I guess these g have got better filters . Cuz I sent it to everybody . You just blew it off .
Grad E: Ah .
Professor C: OK .
Grad B: It 's really simple though . So this is the idea . Um . We could pursue , um , if we thought it 's {disfmarker} it 's worth it but , uh , I think we {disfmarker} we will agree on that , um , to come up with a {disfmarker} with a sort of very , very first crude prototype , and do some implementation work , and do some {disfmarker} some research , and some modeling . So the idea is if you want to go somewhere , um , and focus on that object down {disfmarker} Oh , I can actually walk with this . This is nice . down here . That 's the Powder - Tower . Now , um , {vocalsound} we found in our , uh , data and from experiments , that there 's three things you can do . Um , you can walk this way , and come really , really close to it . And touch it . But you cannot enter or do anything else . Unless you 're interested in rock climbing , it won't do you no good standing there . It 's just a dark alley . But you can touch it . If you want to actually go up or into the tower , you have to go this way , and then through some buildings and up some stairs and so forth . If you actually want to see the tower , and that 's what actually most people want to do , is just have a good look of it , take a picture for the family , {comment} you have to go this way , and go up here . And there you have a vre really view {disfmarker} It exploded , the {disfmarker} during the Thirty years - war . Really uh , interesting sight . And um , these uh {disfmarker} these lines are , um , paths ,
Grad E: Mmm .
Grad B: or so That 's ab er , i the street network of our geographic information system . And you can tell that we deliberately cut out this part . Because otherwise we couldn't get our GIS system to take {disfmarker} to lead people this way . It would always use the closest point to the object , and then the tourists would be faced , you know , in front of a wall , but it would do them absolutely no good . So , {vocalsound} what we found interesting is , first of all , intentions differ . Maybe you want to enter a building . Maybe you want to see it , take a picture of it . Or maybe you actually want to come as close as possible to the building . For whatever reason that may be .
Grad E: What 's it {disfmarker} what 's it made out of ?
Grad B: Um , r red limestone .
Grad E: So maybe you would wanna touch it .
Grad B: Yeah , maybe you would want to touch it . Um . Okay , I {disfmarker} This , um {disfmarker} These intentions , we {disfmarker} w w we could , if we want to , call it the {disfmarker} the Vista mode , where we just want to {disfmarker} eh {disfmarker} s get the overview or look at it , the Enter mode , and the , well , Tango mode . I always come up with {disfmarker} with silly names . So this " Tango " means , literally translated , " to touch " . So {disfmarker} But sometimes the {disfmarker} the Tango mode is really relevant in the {disfmarker} in the sense that , um , if you want to , uh {disfmarker} If you don't have the intention of entering your building , but you know that something is really close to it , and you just want to approach it , or get to that building . Consider , for example , the Post Office in Chicago , a building so large that it has its own zip code . So the entrance could be miles away from the closest point . So sometimes it m m m makes sense maybe to d to distinguish there . So , um , I 've looked , uh , through twenty some {disfmarker} Uh , I didn't look through all the data . um , and there {disfmarker} there 's uh , a lot more different ways in people {disfmarker} uh , the ways people phrase how to g get {disfmarker} if they want to get to a certain place . And sometimes here it 's b it 's a little bit more obvious {disfmarker} Um . {vocalsound} Maybe I should go back a couple of steps and go through the {disfmarker}
Professor C: No , OK come in , sit down . If you grab yourself a microphone .
Grad B: You need to sign some stuff and read some digits .
Professor C: Well , you can sign afterwards .
Grad B: O or later .
Grad E: You have to al also have to read some digits .
Professor C: Afterwards .
Grad D: OK . {comment} OK . Afterwards is fine .
Grad B: They are uncomfortable . Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Really small ? OK . I see . OK .
Grad B: Yep .
Grad D: Thank you .
Grad B: OK , but that was our idea .
Professor C: And it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it it also has to be switched on , Nance .
Grad B: Is {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}
Grad E: No , that one 's already on , I thought he said .
Professor C: It 's on ? OK , good .
Grad D: OK . It 's on .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad B: OK . That was the idea . Um , people , when they w when they want to go to a building , sometimes they just want to look at it . Sometimes they want to enter it . And sometimes they want to get really close to it . That 's something we found . It 's just a truism . And the places where you will lead them for these intentions are sometimes ex in incredibly different . I {disfmarker} I gave an example where the point where you end up if you want to look at it is completely different from where {disfmarker} if you want to enter it . So , this is sort of how people may , uh {disfmarker} may phrase those requests to a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a mock - up system at least that 's the way they did it . And we get tons of {disfmarker} of these " how do I get to " , " I want to go to " , but also , " give me directions to " , and " I would like to see " . And um , what we can sort of do , if we look closer a closer at the {disfmarker} the data {disfmarker} That was the wrong one . um , we can look at some factors that may make a difference . First of all , very important , and um , that {disfmarker} I 've completely forgot that when we talked . This is of course a crucial factor , " what type of object is it ? " So , some buildings you just don't want to take pictures of . Or very rarely . But you usually want to enter them . Some objects are more picturesque , and you {disfmarker} more f more highly photographed . Then of course the {disfmarker} the actual phrases may give us some idea of what the person wants . Um . Sometimes I found in the {disfmarker} Uh , looking at the data , in a superficial way , I found some s sort of modifiers that {disfmarker} that m may also give us a hint , um , " I 'm trying to get to " Nuh ? " I need to get to " . Sort of hints to the fact that you 're not really sightseeing and {disfmarker} and just f there for pleasure and so forth and so on . And this leads us straight to the context which also should be considered . That whatever it is you 're doing at the moment may also inter influence the interpretation of {disfmarker} of a phrase . So , this is , uh , really uh , uh , uh {disfmarker} My suggestion is really simple . We start with , um {disfmarker} Now , Let me , uh , say one more thing . What we do know , is that the parser we use in the SmartKom system will never differentiate between any of these . So , basically all of these things will result in the same XML M - three - L structure . Sort of action " go " , and then an object .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: Yeah ? and a source . So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's way too crude to d capture those differences in intentions . So , I thought , " Mmm ! Maybe for a deep understanding task , that 's a nice sort of playground or first little thing . " Where we can start it and n sort of look {disfmarker} " OK , we need , we gonna get those M - three - L structures . The crude , undifferentiated parse . Interpreted input . We may need additional part of speech , or maybe just some information on the verb , and modifiers , auxiliaries . We 'll see . And I will try to {disfmarker} to sort of come up with a list of factors that we need to get out of there , and maybe we want to get a g switch for the context . So this is not something which we can actually monitor , {vocalsound} now , but just is something we can set . And then you can all imagine sort of a {disfmarker} a constrained satisfaction program , depending on {disfmarker} on what , um , comes out . We want to have an {disfmarker} a structure resulting if we feed it through a belief - net or {disfmarker} or something along those lines . We 'd get an inferred intention , we {disfmarker} we produce a structure that differentiates between the Vista , the Enter , and the , um , Tango mode . Which I think we maybe want to ignore . But . That 's my idea . It 's up for discussion . We can change all of it , any bit of it . Throw it all away .
Grad F: Now @ @ this email that you sent , actually .
Professor C: What ?
Grad F: Now I remember the email .
Professor C: OK .
Grad E: Huh . Still , I have no recollection whatsoever of the email . I 'll have to go back and check .
Professor C: Not important . So , what is important is that we understand what the proposed task is . And , the {disfmarker} the i uh , Robert and I talked about this some on Friday . And we think it 's well - formed . So we think it 's a well - formed , uh , starter task for this , uh , deeper understanding in the tourist domain .
Grad F: So , where exactly is the , uh , deeper understanding being done ? Like I mean , s is it before the Bayes - net ? Is it , uh {disfmarker}
Professor C: Well , it 's the {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's always all of it . So , in general it 's always going to be , the answer is , everywhere . Uh , so the notion is that , uh , this isn't real deep . But it 's deep enough that you can distinguish between these th three quite different kinds of , uh , going to see some tourist thing . And , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's the quote " deep " that we 're trying to get at . And , Robert 's point is that the current front - end doesn't give you any way to {disfmarker} Not only doesn't it do it , but it also doesn't give you enough information to do it . It isn't like , if you just took what the front - end gives you , and used some clever inference algorithm on it , you would be able to figure out which of these is going on . So , uh , and this is {disfmarker} Bu - I in general it 's gonna be true of any kind of deep understanding , there 's gonna be contextual things , there 're gonna be linguistic things , there 're gonna be discourse things , and they gotta be combined . And , my idea on how to combine them is with a belief - net , although it may turn out that t some totally different thing is gonna work better . Um , the idea would be that {vocalsound} you , uh , take your {disfmarker} You 're editing your slide ?
Grad B: Yeah . As i a sort of , as I get ideas , uh w uh .
Professor C: Oh .
Grad B: So , discourse {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I thought about that . Of course that needs to sort of go in there .
Professor C: Oh . I 'm sorry . OK . So . This is minutes {disfmarker} taking minutes as we go , in his {disfmarker} in his own way .
Grad B: Yep .
Professor C: Um , but the p the {disfmarker} Anyway . So the thing is , {vocalsound} i uh , d naively speaking , you 've {disfmarker} you 've got a {disfmarker} for this little task , a belief - net , which is going to have as output , the conditional pr probability of one of three things , that the person wants to {disfmarker} uh , to View it , to Enter it , or to Tango with it . Um . So that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the output of the belief - net is pretty well formed . And , then the inputs are going to be these kinds of things . And , then the question is {disfmarker} there are two questions {disfmarker} is , uh , one , where do you get this i {comment} information from , and two , what 's the structure of the belief - net ? So what are the conditional probabilities of this , that , and the other , given these things ? And you probably need intermediate nodes . I {disfmarker} we don't know what they are yet . So it may well be that , uh , for example , that , uh , knowing whether {disfmarker} Oh , another thing you want is some information abou I think , about the time of day . Now , they may wanna call that part of context .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: But the time of day matters a lot . And , if things are obviously closed , then , you {disfmarker}
Grad B: People won't want to enter it .
Professor C: Pe - people don't wanna enter them . And , if it 's not obvious , you may want to actually uh , point out to people that it 's closed {disfmarker} you know , what they 're g going to is closed and they don't have the option of entering it .
Grad B: s b
Professor C: So another thing that can come up , and will come up as soon as you get serious about this is , that another option of course is to have a {disfmarker} more of a dialogue . So if someone says something you could ask them .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: OK . And {disfmarker} Now , one thing you could do is always ask them , but that 's boring . And it also w it also be a pain for the person using it . So one thing you could do is build a little system that , said , " whenever you got a question like that I 've got one of three answers . Ask them which one you want . " OK . But that 's , um , not what we 're gonna do .
Grad B: But maybe that 's a false state of the system , that it 's too close to call .
Professor C: Oh yeah . You want the {disfmarker} you want the ability to a You want the ability to ask , but what you don't wanna do is onl build a system that always asks every time , and i That 's not getting at the scientific problem ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: and it 's {disfmarker} In general you 're {disfmarker} you know , it 's gonna be much more complex than that . a This is purposely a really simple case .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: So , uh {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad B: I have one more point to {disfmarker} to Bhaskara 's question . Um , I think also the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the deep understanding part of it is {disfmarker} is going to be in there to the extent that we um , want it in terms of our modeling . We can start , you know , basic from human beings , model that , its motions , going , walking , seeing , we can mem model all of that and then compose whatever inferences o we make out of these really conceptual primitives . That will be extremely deep in the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in my understanding .
Professor C: Yeah . S so {disfmarker} so the way that might come up , if you wanna {disfmarker} Suppose you wanted to do that , you might say , " Um , as an intermediate step in your belief - net , is there a Source - Path - Goal schema involved ? " OK ? And if so , uh , is there a focus on the goal ? Or is there a focus on the path ? or something . And that could be , uh , one of the conditiona you know , th the {disfmarker} In some piece of the belief - net , that could be the {disfmarker} the appropriate thing to enter .
Grad F: So , where would we extract that information from ? From the M - three - L ?
Professor C: No . No . See , the M - three - L is not gonna give th What he was saying is , the M - three - L does not have any of that . All it has is some really crude stuff saying , " A person wants to go to a place . "
Grad F: Right .
Grad E: The M - three - L is the old SmartKom output ?
Professor C: Right . M - three well , M - three - L itself refers to Multimedia Mark - up Language .
Grad E: OK . It 's just a language . Right , yeah .
Professor C: So we have th w we we we have to have a better w way of referring to {disfmarker}
Grad B: The parser output ?
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: " Analyzed speech " I think it 's what they call it ,
Professor C: Yeah . The {disfmarker} Well , OK .
Grad B: really , oder {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad B: o th No , actually , intention lattices is what we 're gonna get .
Professor C: Is - i but they c they call it intention lattice , but tha
Grad B: In - in a intention lattice k Hypothesis .
Professor C: Anyway .
Grad B: They call it intention hypotheses .
Professor C: Right . So , th they 're gonna give us some cr uh {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} We can assume that y you get this crude information . About intention , and that 's all they 're going to provide . And they don't give you the kind of object , they don't give you any discourse history , if you want to keep that you have to keep it somewhere else .
Grad B: Well , they keep it . We have to request it .
Professor C: Right .
Grad B: Nuh ? But it 's not in there .
Professor C: Well , they {disfmarker} they kee they keep it by their lights .
Grad B: Hmm .
Professor C: It may {disfmarker} it may or may not be what {disfmarker} what we want .
Grad B: Yeah , or i
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: So , if someone says , " I wanna touch the side of the Powder - Tower " , that would {disfmarker} basically , we need to pop up Tango mode and the {disfmarker} and the directions ?
Professor C: If i if {disfmarker} Yeah , if it got as simple as that , yeah .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: But it wouldn't .
Grad E: OK . But that doesn't necessarily {disfmarker} But we 'd have to infer a Source - Path - Goal to some degree for touching the side , right ?
Grad B: Well {disfmarker} Uh , th the there is a p a point there if I understand you . Correct ? Um , because um , sometimes people just say things {disfmarker} This you find very often . " Where is the city hall ? " And this do they don't wanna sh see it on a map , or they don't wanna know it 's five hundred yards away from you , or that it 's to the {disfmarker} your north . They wanna go there . That 's what they say , is , " Where is it ? " . Where is that damn thing ?
Grad E: And the parser would output {disfmarker}
Grad B: Well , that 's a {disfmarker} a question mark . sh A lot of parsers , um , just , uh {disfmarker} That 's way beyond their scope , is {disfmarker} of interpreting that . You know ? But um , still outcome w the outcome will be some form of structure , with the town hall and maybe saying it 's a WH focus on the town hall . But to interpret it ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: you know ? somebody else has to do that job later .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: I 'm just trying to figure out what the SmartKom system would output , depending on these things .
Grad B: Um , it will probably tell you how far away it is , at least that 's {disfmarker} That 's even what Deep Map does . It tells you how far away it is , and {disfmarker} and shows it to you on a map . Because i we can not differentiate , at the moment , between , you know , the intention of wanting to go there or the intention of just know wanting to know where {disfmarker} where it is .
Grad D: People no might not be able to infer that either , right ? Like the fact {disfmarker} Like , I could imagine if someone came up to me and asked , " Where 's the city hall ? " , I might say , g ar " Are you trying to get there ? " Because how I describe um , t its location {disfmarker} uh , p probably depend on whether I think I should give them , you know , directions now , or say , you know , whatever , " It 's half a mile away " or something like that .
Grad B: Mm - hmm . It 's a granularity factor ,
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad B: because where people ask you , " Where is New York ? " , you will tell them it 's on the East Coast .
Grad D: Uh - huh . Yeah . Exactly . Right . Right .
Grad B: Y y eh {disfmarker} you won't tell them how to get there , ft you know , take that bus to the airport and blah - blah - blah .
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad B: But if it 's the post office , you will tell them how to get there .
Grad D: Right . Mm - hmm .
Grad B: So th They have done some interesting experiments on that in Hamburg as well .
Grad D: Right .
Grad B: So .
Grad D: Right .
Professor C: But {disfmarker} i Go {disfmarker} go back to the {disfmarker} the uh , th
Grad B: So I w this is {disfmarker} " onto " is {disfmarker} is knowledge about buildings ,
Professor C: Yeah , that slide .
Grad B: their opening times , and then t coupled with time of day , um , this should {disfmarker} You know .
Grad D: So that context was like , um , their presumed purpose context , i like business or travel , as well as the utterance context , like , " I 'm now standing at this place at this time " .
Professor C: Yeah , well I think we ought to d a As we have all along , d We {disfmarker} we 've been distu distinguishing between situational context , which is what you have as context , and discourse context ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: which you have as DH ,
Grad B: Nuh .
Professor C: I don't know what the H means .
Grad B: History . Discourse history . Yeah .
Professor C: OK . Whatever . So we can work out terminology later .
Grad B: Yep .
Professor C: So , they 're {disfmarker} they 're quite distinct . I mean , you need them both , but they 're quite distinct . And , so what we were talking about doing , a a as a first shot , is not doing any of the linguistics . Except to find out what seems to be {pause} useful . So , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the reason the belief - net is in blue , is the notion would be {disfmarker} Uh , this may be a bad dis bad idea , but the idea is to take as a first goal , see if we could actually build a belief - net that would make this three way distinction uh , in a plausible way , given these {disfmarker} We have all these transcripts and we 're able to , by hand , extract the features to put in the belief - net . Saying , " Aha ! here 're the things which , if you get them out of {disfmarker} out of the language and discourse , and put them into the belief - net , it would tell you which of these three uh , intentions is most likely . " And if {disfmarker} to actually do that , build it , um {disfmarker} you know , run it {disfmarker} y y run it on the data where you hand - transcribe the parameters . And see how that goes . If that goes well , then we can start worrying about how we would extract them . So {disfmarker} where would you get this information ? And , expand it to {disfmarker} to other things like this . But if we can't do that , then we 're in trouble . I mean th th i i if you can't do this task , um {disfmarker}
Grad B: We need a different , uh , engine . Machine , I mean .
Professor C: Uh , uh , yeah , or something . Well it {disfmarker} i I if it {disfmarker} if it 's the belief - nets , we we 'll switch to you know , logic or some terrible thing , but I don't think that 's gonna be the case . I think that , uh , if we can get the information , a belief - net is a perfectly good way of doing the inferential combination of it . The real issue is , do what are the factors involved in determining this ? And I don't know .
Grad B: Hmm . But , only w
Professor C: Hold on a s Hold on a second .
Grad B: Muh .
Professor C: So , I know . Uh , uh , is it clear what 's going on here ?
Grad F: Yep .
Grad D: Um , I missed the beginning , but , um I guess {disfmarker} could you back to the slide , the previous one ? So , is it that it 's , um {disfmarker} These are all factors that uh , a These are the ones that you said that we are going to ignore now ? or that we want to {vocalsound} take into account ? You were saying n
Professor C: Take them into account . But {disfmarker} but you don't worry about {disfmarker} h
Grad D: Take the {disfmarker} the linguistic factors too . Oh , how to extract these features .
Professor C: how to extract them . So , f let 's find out which ones we need first ,
Grad D: OK . Got it .
Professor C: and {disfmarker}
Grad D: OK . And {disfmarker} and it 's clear from the data , um , like , sorta the correct answer in each case .
Professor C: No .
Grad D: But l
Grad B: No . But {disfmarker}
Grad D: OK .
Professor C: Let 's go back to th Let 's go back to the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the slide of data .
Grad D: That 's {disfmarker} that 's the thing I 'm curious ab
Grad B: Um {disfmarker}
Grad D: Like do we know from the data wh which {disfmarker} OK . So {disfmarker}
Grad B: Not from that data . But , um , since we are designing a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} an , compared to this , even bigger data collection effort , {comment} um , we will definitely take care to put it in there ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad B: in some shape , way , form over the other ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad B: to see whether we can , then , get sort of empirically validated data .
Grad D: Right .
Grad B: Um , from this , we can sometimes , you know {disfmarker} an and that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} but that {disfmarker} isn't that what we need for a belief - net anyhow ? is sort of {disfmarker} s sometimes when people want to just see it , they phrase it more like this ? But it doesn't exclude anybody from phrasing it totally differently , even if they still {disfmarker}
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Right .
Grad B: you know ?
Grad D: Right .
Grad B: But then other factors may come into play that change the outcome of their belief - net . So , um , this is exactly what {disfmarker}
Grad D: Right .
Grad B: Because y you can never be sure . And I 'm sure even i the most , sort of , deliberate data collection experiment will never give you data that say , " Well , if it 's phrased like that , the intention is this . "
Grad D: Sure .
Grad B: You know , because then , uh , you {disfmarker}
Grad D: u u I mean , the only way you could get that is if you were to give th the x subjects a task . Right ? Where you have {disfmarker} where your , uh , current goal is to {disfmarker}
Grad B: We Yeah ! That 's what we 're doing .
Grad D:
Grad B: But {disfmarker} but we will still get the phrasing all over the place .
Grad D: So that 's what you want ? OK . So you will know .
Grad B: I 'm sure that , you know {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad D: Mm - hmm . The {disfmarker} No , that 's fine . I guess , it 's just knowing the intention from the experimental subject .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: From that task , yeah . So , uh , I think you all know this , but we are going to actually use this little room
Grad D:
Professor C: and start recording subjects probably within a month or something . So , this is not any {disfmarker} lo any of you guys ' worry , except that we may want to push that effort to get information we need . So our job {vocalsound} is to figure out how to solve these problems . If it turns out that we need data of a certain sort , then the sort of data collection branch can be , uh , asked to do that . And one of the reasons why we 're recording the meeting for these guys is cuz we want their help when we d we start doing uh , recording of subjects . So , yeah {disfmarker} y you 're absolutely right , though . No , you {disfmarker} you will not have , and there it is , and , uh {disfmarker} But you know , y y the , um {disfmarker}
Grad D: And I think the other concern that has come up before , too , is if it 's {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} I don't know if this was collected {disfmarker} what situation this data was collected in . Was it {disfmarker} is it the one that you showed in your talk ? Like people {disfmarker}
Grad B: No , no . No .
Grad D: But OK . So was this , like , someone actually mobile , like {disfmarker} s using a device ?
Grad B: Uh , N no , no not {disfmarker} i it was mobile but not {disfmarker} not with a w a real wizard system . So there were never answers .
Grad D: Uh - huh . OK . OK . But , is it {disfmarker} I guess I don't know {disfmarker} The situation of {disfmarker} of collecting th the data of , like {disfmarker} Here you could imagine them being {disfmarker} walking around the city . as like one situation . And then you have all sorts of other c situational context factors that would influence w how to interpret , like you said , the scope and things like that .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: If they 're doing it in a {disfmarker} you know , " I 'm sitting here with a map and asking questions " , I {disfmarker} I would imagine that the data would be really different . Um , so it 's just {disfmarker}
Grad B: Yeah . But {disfmarker} It was never th th the goal of that data collection to {disfmarker} to serve for sat for such a purpose . So that 's why for example the tasks were not differentiated by intentionality ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: there was n there was no label ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: you know , intention A , intention B , intention C .
Grad D: Right .
Grad B: Or task A , B , C . Um I 'm sure we can produce some if we need it , um , that {disfmarker} that will help us along those lines .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: But , you know , you gotta leave something for other people to model . So , to {disfmarker} Finding out what , you know , situational con what the contextual factors of the situation really are , you know is an interesting s interesting thing .
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad B: u u Sort of I 'm , at the moment , curious and I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} s w want to approach it from the end where we can s sort of start with this toy system that we can play around with ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: so that we get a clearer notion of what input we need for that ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: what suffices and what doesn't . And then we can start worrying about where to get this input , what {disfmarker} what do we need , you know {disfmarker} Ultimately once we are all experts in changing that parser , for example , maybe , there 's just a couple three things we need to do and then we get more whatever , part of speech and more construction - type - like stuff out of it .
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Hmm .
Grad B: It 's a m pragmatic approach , uh , at the moment .
Grad E: How exactly does the data collection work ? Do they have a map , and then you give them a scenario of some sort ?
Grad B: OK . Imagine you 're the {disfmarker} the subject . You 're gonna be in here , and somebody {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} and you see , uh , either th the three - D model , or uh , a QuickTime animation of standing u in a square in Heidelberg . So you actually see that . Um . The uh , um , first thing is you have to read a text about Heidelberg . So , just off a textbook , uh , tourist guide , to familiarize , uh , yourself with that sort of odd - sounding German street names , like Fischergasse and so forth . So that 's part one . Part two is , you 're told that this huge new , wonderful computer system exists , that can y tell you everything you want to know , and it understands you completely . And so you 're gonna pick up that phone , dial a number , and you get a certain amount of tasks that you have to solve . First you have to know {disfmarker} find out how to get to that place , maybe with the intention of buying stamps in there . Maybe {disfmarker} So , the next task is to get to a certain place and take a picture for your grandchild . The third one is to get information on the history of an object . The fourth one {disfmarker} And then the g system breaks down . It crashes , And {disfmarker}
Grad D: a At the third ? Right then ?
Grad B: After the third task .
Grad D: OK .
Grad B: And then {disfmarker} Or after the fourth . Some find {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Forget that for now . And then , a human operator comes on , and {disfmarker} and exp apologizes that the system has crashed , but , you know , urges you to continue , you know ? now with a human operator . And so , you have basically the same tasks again , just with different objects , and you go through it again , and that was it . Oh , and one {disfmarker} one little bit {disfmarker} w And uh , the computer you are {disfmarker} you are being told the computer system knows exactly where you are , via GPS . When the human operator comes on , um , that person does not know . So the GPS is crashed as well . So the person first has to ask you " Where are you ? " . And so you have to do some {disfmarker} s tell the person sort of where you are , depending on what you see there . Um , this is a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a bit that I d I don't think we {disfmarker} Did we discuss that bit ? Uh , I just sort of squeezed that in now . But it 's something , uh , that would provide some very interesting data for some people I know . So .
Grad D: So , in the display you can {disfmarker} Oh , you said that you cou you might have a display that shows , like , the {disfmarker}
Grad B: Yeah . a Additionally , y you have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a sort of a map type display .
Grad D: a w your perspective ? sort of ?
Grad B: Uh , two - D .
Grad D: And so , as you {disfmarker}
Grad B: n
Grad D: Oh , two - D . OK .
Grad B: Two - D .
Grad D: So as you move through it that 's - they just track it on the {disfmarker} for themselves
Grad B: Yeah . b y You don't {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker}
Grad D: there .
Grad B: I don't know . I but y I don't think you really move , sort of .
Grad D: OK . So
Grad B: Yeah ? I mean that would be an {disfmarker} an {disfmarker} an enormous technical effort , unless we would {disfmarker} We can show it walks to , you know . We can have movies of walking , you walking through {disfmarker} through Heidelberg , and u ultimately arriving there .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: Maybe we wanna do that . Yeah .
Grad D: Uh , I was just trying to figure out how {disfmarker} how ambitious the system is .
Grad B: The map was sort of intended to {disfmarker} You want to go to that place . You know , and it 's sort of there .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: And you see the label of the name {disfmarker} So we get those names , pronunciation stuff , and so forth , and we can change that .
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . So your tasks don't require you to {disfmarker} I mean , uh {disfmarker} yo you 're told {disfmarker} So when your task is , I don't know , " Go buy stamps " or something like that ? So , do you have to respond ? or does your {disfmarker} Uh , what are you ste what are you supposed to be telling the system ? Like , w what you 're doing now ? or {disfmarker}
Grad B: Well , we 'll see what people do .
Grad D: There 's no {disfmarker} OK , so it 's just like , " Let 's figure out what they would say under the circumstances " .
Grad B: Yeah , and {disfmarker} and we will record both sides . I mean , we will record the Wi - the Wizard {disfmarker}
Grad D: Uh - huh .
Grad B: I mean , in both cases it 's gonna be a human , in the computer , and in the operator case .
Grad D: Uh - huh .
Grad B: And we will re there will be some dialogue , you know ? So , you first have to do this , and that ,
Grad D: Yep .
Grad B: and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: see wh what they say . We can ins instruct the , uh , wizard in how expressive and talkative he should be . But um , maybe the {disfmarker} maybe what you 're suggesting {disfmarker} Is what you 're suggesting that it might be too poor , the data , if we sort of limit it to this ping pong one t uh , task results in a question and then there 's an answer and that 's the end of the task ? You wanna m have it more {disfmarker} more steps , sort of ?
Grad D: Yeah , I {disfmarker} I don't know how much direction is given to the subject about what their interaction {disfmarker} I mean , th they 're unfamiliar w with interacting with the system .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: All they know is it 's this great system that could do s stuff .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Oh yeah , but {disfmarker} to some extent this is a different discussion .
Grad D: Right ? So {disfmarker}
Professor C: OK ? So . Uh , we {disfmarker} we have to have this discussion of th the experiment , and the data collection , and all that sorta stuff
Grad D: Uh - huh .
Professor C: and we do have , um , a student who is a candidate for wizard . Uh , she 's gonna get in touch with me . It 's a student of Eve 's . FEY , Fey ? Spelled FEY . Do you {disfmarker} do you {disfmarker}
Grad D: Oh , Fey Parrill .
Professor C: You know her ?
Grad D: Yeah . Uh - huh .
Professor C: OK . Sh - Is sh
Grad D: She started taking the class last year and then didn't {disfmarker} um , you know , didn't continue . I g She 's a g
Professor C: She 's graduated .
Grad D: Is she an undergradua She is a graduate , OK .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad D: Yeah , I m I know her very , very briefly . I know she was inter you know , interested in aspect and stuff like that .
Professor C: OK . So , anyway , she 's looking for some more part time work w while she 's waiting actually for graduate school . And she 'll be in touch . So we may have someone , uh , to do this , and she 's got you know , some background in {disfmarker} in all this stuff . And is a linguist st and , so So . {vocalsound} That 's {disfmarker} So , Nancy , we 'll have an At some point we 'll have another discussion on exactly wha t t you know , how that 's gonna go .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And um , Jane , but also , uh , Liz have offered to help us do this , uh , data collection and design and stuff .
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Mmm .
Professor C: So , when we get to that we 'll have some people doing it that know what they 're doing .
Grad D: OK . I guess the reason I was asking about the sort of the de the details of this kind of thing is that , um , it 's one thing to collect data for , I don't know , speech recognition or various other tasks that have pretty c clear correct answers , but with intention {vocalsound} um , obviously , as you point out , there 's a lot of di other factors and {disfmarker} I 'm not really sure , um , how {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} e the question of how to make it a t appropriate toy version of that {disfmarker} Um , it 's ju it 's just hard . So , I mean , obviously it 's a {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah , uh , actually I guess that was my question . Is the intention implicit in the scenario that 's given ? Like , do the {disfmarker}
Grad D: It is , if they have these tasks that they 're supposed to {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah , I just wasn't sure to what level of detail the task was .
Grad D: to {disfmarker} to give {disfmarker} Yeah ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: uh {disfmarker}
Grad B: n No one is , at the moment .
Grad D: Right . Right .
Grad E: OK .
Professor C: So , we that 's part of what we 'll have to figure out .
Grad D: Right .
Professor C: But , uh ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: the {disfmarker} The problem that I was tr gonna try to focus on today was , let 's suppose by magic you could collect dialogues in which , one way or the other , you were able to , uh , figure out both the intention , and set the context , and know what language was used . So let 's suppose that we can get that kind of data . Um . The issue is , can we find a way to , basically , featurize it so that we get some discrete number of features so that , uh , when we know the values to all those features , or as many as possible , we can w come up with the best estimate of which of the , in this case three little intentions , are most likely .
Grad D: w What are the t three intentions ? Is it to go there , to see it , and {disfmarker}
Grad B: To come as close as possible to it .
Professor C: Th - the terminology we 're using is to {disfmarker}
Grad D: Yeah , it 's @ @ .
Professor C: Go back . To v
Grad D: OK .
Professor C: to View it . OK ? To Enter it . Now those {disfmarker} It seems to me those are cl you c you have no trouble with those being distinct . " Take a picture of it " you {disfmarker} you might well want to be a really rather different place than entering it .
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And , for an object that 's at all big , uh , sort of getting to the nearest part of it uh , could be quite different than either of those .
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Just sort of {disfmarker}
Grad D: OK , so now I understand the referent of Tango mode . I didn't get that before .
Grad E: See , I would have thought it was more of a waltz .
Grad B: S To " Waltz " it ?
Grad D: Yeah , like , how close are you gonna be ?
Professor C: Well .
Grad D: Like , {vocalsound} Tango 's really close .
Grad E: Yeah , cuz a tango {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor C: Well , anyway . So {disfmarker}
Grad F: All these So , like , the question is how what features can {disfmarker} like , do you wanna try to extract from , say , the parse or whatever ?
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: Like , the presence of a word or the presence of a certain uh , stem , or {disfmarker} certain construction or whatever .
Professor C: Right . Is there a construction , or the kind of object , or w uh , anything else that 's in the si It 's either in the {disfmarker} in the s the discourse itself or in the context . So if it turns out that , whatever it is , you want to know whether the person 's uh , a tourist or not , OK ? that becomes a feature . Now , how you determine that is another issue . But fo for the current problem , it would just be , " OK , if you can be sure that it 's a tourist , versus a businessman , versus a native , " or something , uh , that would give you a lot of discriminatory power and then just have a little section in your belief - net that said , " pppt ! " Though sin f in the short run , you 'd set them ,
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: and see ho how it worked , and then in the longer run , you would figure out how you could derive them . From previous discourse or w any anything else you knew .
Grad F: Right . So , how should {disfmarker} What 's the uh , plan ? Like , how should we go about figuring out these {disfmarker}
Professor C: OK . So , first of all is , uh , do e either of you guys , you got a favorite belief - net that you 've , you know , played with ? JavaBayes or something ?
Grad F: Oh . No , not really .
Professor C: OK . Well , anyway . f Get one . OK ? So {disfmarker} y so one of th one of the things we wanna do is actually , uh , pick a package , doesn't matter which one , uh , presumably one that 's got good interactive abilities , cuz a lot of what we 're gonna be d You know , we don't need the one that 'll solve massive , uh , belief - nets quickly . d w These are not gonna get big in {disfmarker} in the foreseeable future . But we do want one in which it 's easy to interact with and , uh , modify . Because i that 's {disfmarker} A lot of what it 's gonna be , is , um , playing with this . And probably one in which it 's easy to have , um , what amounts to transcript files . So that if {disfmarker} if we have all these cases {disfmarker} OK ? So we make up cases that have these features , OK , and then you 'd like to be able to say , " OK , here 's a bunch of cases " {disfmarker} There 're even ones tha that you can do learning OK ? So you have all their cases and {disfmarker} and their results and you have a {disfmarker} algorithms to go through and run around trying to set the {disfmarker} the probabilities for you . Um , probably that 's not worth it . I mean , my guess is we aren't gonna have enough data that 's good enough to make the {disfmarker} these data fitting ones worth it , but I don't know . So I would say you guy the first task for you two guys is to um , pick a package . OK , and you wanna it s You know , the standard things you want it stable , you want it {disfmarker} yeah , @ @ . And , as soon as we have one , we can start trying to , uh , make a first cut at what 's going on .
Grad B: An - Nuh .
Professor C: But it {disfmarker} what I like about it is it 's very concrete . OK ? We {disfmarker} we have a {disfmarker} we know what the outcomes are gonna be , and we have some {disfmarker} some data that 's loose , we can use our own intuition , and see how hard it is , and , importantly , what intermediate nodes we think we need . So it {disfmarker} if it turns out that just , thinking about the problem , you come up with things you really need to {disfmarker} You know , this is the kind of thing that is , you know , an intermediate little piece in your belief - net . That 'd be really interesting .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: And it {disfmarker} and it may serve as a platform for a person , maybe me , or whoever , who is interested in doing some linguistic analysis . I mean , w we have the For - FrameNet group here , and we can see what they have found out about those concepts already , that are contained in the data , um , you know , to come up with a nice little set of features and um , maybe even means of s uh , extracting them . And {disfmarker} and that altogether could also be {disfmarker} uh , become a nice paper that 's going to be published somewhere , if we sit down and write it . And um {disfmarker} When you said JavaBayes belief - net you were talking about ones that run on coffee ? or that are in the program language Java ?
Professor C: No , th It turns out that there is a , uh {disfmarker} The new end of Java libraries . OK , and it turns out one called
Grad B: Mmm . OK .
Professor C: Which is one that fair {disfmarker} people around here use a fair amount . I have no idea whether that 's {disfmarker} The obvious advantage of that is that you can then , relatively easily , get all the other Java packages for GUIs or whatever else you might want to do .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So that i that 's I think why a lot of people doing research use that . But it may not be {disfmarker} I have no idea whether that 's the best choice an and there 're plenty of people around , students in the department who , you know , live and breathe Bayes - nets . So , uh ,
Grad D: There 's the m tool kit that um , Kevin Murphy has developed ,
Professor C: Right . It 's OK .
Grad D: which might be useful too .
Grad F: Right .
Professor C: So , yeah , Kevin would be a good person to start with .
Grad D: And it 's available Matlab code .
Professor C: Nancy knows him well . I don't know I don't know whether you guys have met Kevin yet or not ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: but , uh {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yeah , I know him .
Grad B: But i But since we all probably are pretty sure that , um , the {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad B: For example , this th th the dialogue history is {disfmarker} is um , producing XML documents . M - three - L of course is XML . And the ontology that um , uh the student is {disfmarker} is constructing for me back in {disfmarker} in EML is in OIL and that 's also in XML . And so that 's where a lot of knowledge about bakeries , about hotels , about castles and stuff is gonna come from .
Professor C: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Grad B: Um , so , if it has that IO capability and if it 's a Java package , it will definitely be able {disfmarker} We can couple .
Professor C: Yeah . So , yeah , we 're sort of {nonvocalsound} committed to XML as the kind of , uh , interchange . But that 's , you know , not a big deal .
Grad B: Who isn't , nuh ?
Professor C: So , in terms of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} interchanging in and out of any module we build , It 'll be XML . And if you 're going off to queries to the ontology , for example , you 'll have to deal with its interface . But that 's {disfmarker} that 's fine an and um , all of these things have been built with much bigger projects than this in mind . So they {disfmarker} they have worked very hard . It 's kind of blackboards and multi - wave blackboards and ways of interchanging and registering your a And so forth . So , that I don't think is even worth us worrying about just yet . I mean if we can get the core of the thing to work , in a way that we 're comfortable with , then we ca we can get in and out of it with , uh , XML , um , little descriptors . I believe .
Grad B: Hmm . Yeah . Yeah , I like , for example , the {disfmarker} what you said about the getting input from {disfmarker} from just files about where you h where you have the data , have specified the features and so forth .
Professor C: I don't {disfmarker} I don't see {disfmarker}
Grad B: That 's , of course , easy also to do with , you know , XML .
Professor C: Uh , you could have an X {disfmarker} yeah , you could make and XML format for that . Sure .
Grad B: So r
Professor C: That {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} um , you know , feature value XML format is probably as good a way as any . So it 's als Yeah , I guess it 's also worth , um , while you 're poking around , poke around for XML packages that um , do things you 'd like .
Grad F: Doesn't {disfmarker} does SmartKom system have such packages ?
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: Sure .
Grad B: The {disfmarker} the lib M - three - L library does that . It 's also {disfmarker}
Professor C: And the question is , d you c you {disfmarker} you 'll have to l We 'll have to l That should be {disfmarker} ay We should be able to look at that {disfmarker}
Grad B: No , u u y um the {disfmarker} What I {disfmarker} What sort of came to my mind i is {disfmarker} was the notion of an idea that if {disfmarker} if there are l nets that can actually lear try to set their own , um , probability factors based on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on input {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad B: which is in file format , if we , um , get really w wild on this , we may actually want to use some {disfmarker} some corpora that other people made and , for example , if {disfmarker} if they are in {disfmarker} in MATE , then we get X M L documents with discourse annotations , t you know , t from the discourse act down to the phonetic level .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: Um , Michael has a project where {disfmarker} you know , recognizing discourse acts and he does it all in MATE , and so they 're actually annotating data and data and data . So if we w if we think it 's worth it one of these days , not {disfmarker} not with this first prototype but maybe with a second , and we have the possibility of {disfmarker} of taking input that 's generated elsewhere and learn from that , that 'd be nice .
Grad F: Right .
Professor C: It 'd be nice , but {disfmarker} but I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do I don't wanna count on it . I mean , you can't {disfmarker} you can't run your project based on the speculation that {disfmarker} that the data will come ,
Grad B: No , no , uh , just for {disfmarker}
Professor C: and you don't have to actually design the nets .
Grad B: Nuh . Just a back door that {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think we should devote m
Professor C: Could happen . Yeah . So in terms of {disfmarker} of the , um {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} what the SmartKom gives us for M - three - L packages , it could be that they 're fine , or it could be eeh . You don't {disfmarker} You know , you don't really like it . So we 're not {disfmarker} we 're not abs we 're not required to use their packages . We are required at the end to give them stuff in their format , but hey .
Grad F: Right .
Professor C: Um , it 's , uh {disfmarker} It doesn't control what you do in you know , internally .
Grad B:
Grad E: What 's the time frame for this ?
Grad B: Two days ? Two , three days ?
Professor C: Huh ? Yeah bu w I 'd like that this {disfmarker} y yeah , this week , to ha to n to {vocalsound} have y guys , uh , you know , pick {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} y you know , belief - net package
Grad B: No .
Professor C: and tell us what it is , and give us a pointer so we can play with it or something .
Grad F: Sure .
Professor C: And , then as soon as we have it , I think we should start trying to populate it for this problem . Make a first cut at , you know , what 's going on , and probably the ea easiest way to do that is some on - line way . I mean , you can f figure out whether you wanna make it a web site or {disfmarker} You know , how
Grad B: Uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} um , OK , I {disfmarker} t Yeah . I was actually more joking . With the two or three days . So this was {disfmarker} was a usual jo
Professor C: OK , I wasn't .
Grad B: Um , it will take as long as y y yo you guys need for that .
Professor C: Yeah . Right .
Grad B: But um , maybe it might be interesting if {disfmarker} if the two of you can agree on who 's gonna be the speaker next Monday , to tell us something about the net you picked , and what it does , and how it does that .
Professor C: Well , y Well , or both of them speak .
Grad F: Sure .
Grad B: Yeah , or you can split it up .
Professor C: We don't care .
Grad B: So , y
Grad F: Hmm .
Grad B: So that will be sort of the assignment for next week , is to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} for slides and whatever net you picked and what it can do and {disfmarker} and how far you 've gotten . Pppt !
Professor C: Well , I 'd like to also , though , uh , ha have a first cut at what the belief - net looks like . Even if it 's really crude . OK ? So , you know , here a here are {disfmarker}
Grad E: So we 're supposed to @ @ about features and whatnot ,
Professor C: Right . Yeah .
Grad E: and {disfmarker}
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And , as I said , what I 'd like to do is , I mean , what would be really great is you bring it in {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if we could , uh , in the meeting , say , you know , " Here 's the package , here 's the current one we have , " uh , you know , " What other ideas do you have ? " and then we can think about this idea of making up the data file . Of , uh , you know , get a {disfmarker} t a p tentative format for it , let 's say XML , that says , l you know , " These are the various scenarios we 've experienced . " We can just add to that and there 'll be this {disfmarker} this file of them and when you think you 've got a better belief - net , You just run it against this , um {disfmarker} this data file .
Grad F: So we 'll be like , hand , uh , doing all the probabilities .
Professor C: Oh , yeah , unt until we know more .
Grad F: OK .
Grad E: And what 's the relation to this with {disfmarker} Changing the table so that the system works in English ?
Grad B: OK . So this is {disfmarker} Whi - while you were doing this , I received two lovely emails . The {disfmarker} the full NT and the full Linux version are there . I 've downloaded them both , and I started to unpack the Linux one {disfmarker} Uh , the NT one worked fine . and I started unta pack the Linux one , it told me that I can't really unpack it because it contains a future date . So this is the time difference between Germany . I had to wait until one o ' clock this afternoon before I was able to unpack it . Now , um {disfmarker} Then it will be my job to get this whole thing running both on Swede and on this machine . And so that we have it . And then um {disfmarker} Hopefully that {disfmarker} hoping that my urgent message will now come through to Ralph and Tilman that it will send some more documentation along , we {disfmarker} I control p Maybe that 's what I will do next Monday is show the state and show the system and show that .
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah . So the answer , Johno , is that these are , at the moment , separate . Uh , what one hopes is that when we understand how the analyzer works , we can both worry about converting it to English and worry about how it could ex extract the parameters we need for the belief - net .
Grad E: I guess my question was more about time frame . So we 're gonna do belief - nets this week , and then {disfmarker}
Professor C: Oh , yeah . I don't know . n None of this is i n Neither of these projects has got a real tight time - line , in the sense that over the next month there 's a {disfmarker} there 's a deliverable .
Grad E: OK .
Professor C: OK . S so uh , it 's opportu in that sense it 's opportunistic . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} you know , if we don't get any information for these guys f for several weeks then we aren't gonna sit around , you know , wasting time , trying to do the problem or guess what they {disfmarker} You know , just pppt ! go on and do other things .
Grad E: OK .
Grad B: Yeah , but uh {disfmarker} but the uh {disfmarker} This point is really {disfmarker} I think very , very valid that ultimately we hope that {disfmarker} that both will merge into a harmonious and , um , wonderful , um , state where we can not only do the bare necessities , IE , changing the table so it does exactly in English what it does in German , but also that we can sort of have the system where we can say , " OK , this is what it usually does , and now we add this little thing to it " , you know ? whatever , Johno 's and Bhaskara 's great belief - net , and we plug it in , and then for these certain tasks , and we know that navigational tasks are gonna be a core domain of the new system , it all {disfmarker} all of a sudden it does much better . Nuh ? Because it can produce better answers , tell the person , as I s showed you on this map , n you know , produce either you know , a red line that goes to the Vista point or a red line that goes to the Tango point or red line that goes to the door , which would be great . So not only can you show that you know something sensible but ultimately , if you produce a system like this , it takes the person where it wants to go . Rather than taking him always to the geometric center of a building ,
Grad F: Mmm .
Grad B: which is what they do now . And we even had to take out a bit . Nancy , you missed that part . We had to take out a bit of the road work . So that it doesn't take you to the wall {vocalsound} every time .
Grad D: Oh , really ?
Grad B: So . Um {disfmarker} So this was actually an actual problem that we encountered , which nobody have {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} because car navigation systems don't really care . You know , they get you to the beginning of the street , some now do the house number .
Grad D: Hmm .
Grad B: But even that is problematic .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: If you go d If you wanna drive to the SAP in Waldorf , I 'm sure the same is true of Microsoft , it takes you to the {disfmarker} the address , whatever , street number blah - blah - blah , you are miles away from the entrance .
Professor C: Yep .
Grad B: Because the s postal address is maybe a mailbox somewhere . Nuh ?
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: but the entrance where you actually wanna go is somewhere completely different . So unless you 're a mail person you really don't wanna go there .
Grad D: Right , yeah .
Professor C: Probably not then , cuz y you probably can't drop the mail there anyway .
Grad B: Probably neither {disfmarker} e not even that .
Professor C: Yeah . Clear ?
Grad F: OK . Sounds good .
Grad E: The Powder - Tower is made of red limestone .
Grad D: I was wondering .
Grad B: Do you wanna see a picture ?
Grad D: OK . Sure !
Grad E: Sure !
Grad B: Have to reboot for that though .
Grad D: Um . So , you two , who 'll be working on this , li are {disfmarker} are you gl will you be doing {disfmarker} Well , I mean are you supposed to just do it by thinking about the situation ? Can you use the sample data ?
Professor C: Of course they use the sample data .
Grad D: Is it like {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean , ho is there more than {disfmarker} Is there a lot s of sample data that is beyond what you {disfmarker} what you have there ?
Grad B: There {disfmarker} there 's more than I showed , but um , um , I think this is sort of um , in part my job to look at that and {disfmarker} and to see whether there are features in there that can be extracted ,
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad B: and to come up with some features that are not you know , empirically based on {disfmarker} on a real experiment or on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on reality
Grad D: Right . Mm - hmm .
Grad B: but sort of on your intuition of you know , " Aha ! This is maybe a sign for that ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: and this is maybe a sign for this . "
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: So , yeah . Later this week we should sort of get together , and sort of start thinking about that , hopefully .
Grad B: Talk features . Yep .
Professor C: OK . We can end the meeting and call Adam , and then we wanna s look at some filthy pictures of Heidelberg . We can do that as well .
Grad B: Well they had {disfmarker} they used the ammunition {disfmarker} They stored the ammunition in that tower .
Professor C: Uh , is that OK ?
Grad B: And that 's why , when it was hit by uh , a cannon ball , it exploded .
Professor C: Alright . Oh . Ni
Grad E: It exploded . That 's why they call it the Powder - Tower .
Grad B: Ahh .
Grad E: OK . I first thought it had something to do with the material that it {disfmarker} w that 's why I asked .
Grad D: That 's right , OK .
Grad B: Mmm .
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Industrial Designer: Oops That's as far as it goes {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Hi guys uh good morning everybody here . And uh I want to introduce myself , uh my name is uh Shrida Daseri and uh I'm a project manager for this new project which we are going to discuss now . So I want to introduce first of all uh the names and the colleagues here . And what you're uh drawing ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh sure my name is Agnes and I'm an user {disfmarker} usability user interface designer .
Marketing: {vocalsound} My name is Ed and I do accounting .
Project Manager: Uh how you spell your name uh ?
Marketing: E_D_ .
Project Manager: E_D_ okay .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: And ?
Industrial Designer: Do you also do marketing ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} No {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: So only accounting ? Okay .
Marketing: Accounting , yes .
Project Manager: And ?
Industrial Designer: And I'm Christine ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and my role in this uh scenario is to be the industrial designer .
Project Manager: Industrial designer .
Industrial Designer: But I'm not really one .
Project Manager: So who is uh marketing , nobody in the market
Marketing: Marketing is uh , is me {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: It's you , okay . So thanks for coming for the meeting first of all , and uh we have a long time , just twenty-five minutes to discuss about uh this project and the the project initiation . First of all I want to ask uh Mister Ed about your uh marketing plan and your product plan and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well I think that we'll see that throughout the day in how we're going to put this together as a marketing to to market the product . We'll have to see on a through discussion on where we're gonna go from here and from {disfmarker} with this .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm but uh do you already have like a functional design or a technical design or {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh for the moment not yet .
Project Manager: Oh for the moment not yet , okay , but uh what's what's your uh {disfmarker} do you have some project plan , something with you or {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Good question {vocalsound} . No , this is like I said that we have to be discussed between all of us and we'll go from there . We'll have to {disfmarker} simply we'll have to work on it together .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay , so uh by when you think you can uh give me some kind of uh project plan , okay , a discussion with uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Certainly by the next meeting .
Project Manager: By next meeting , okay that will be great . Uh Okay , so there's any questions or uh first of all about uh this project ?
Industrial Designer: What is the goal of the project ?
Project Manager: Uh the goal of the project I think maybe I'll uh hand out to the Ed , okay , so to explain uh what is the project because he's in the sales and the accounting .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I'm in the sales I'm supposed to explain them what to do {vocalsound} . We have to define exactly what our product is , from uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes , so can you explain uh what exactly the product is ?
Marketing: From what I had in mind we're supposed to be marketing coffee , is that right ?
Project Manager: Oh I think uh , if I'm not wrong , we're making the remote control .
User Interface: Um I was wondering {disfmarker}
Marketing: Remote controls , 'cause I had two different things . I had a first part of mine was to make a remote control for a new f remote control for television , and afterward I had a discussion about coffee so {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes .
Marketing: we'll start with the remote control for television then . So we're have to design something that is very user friendly .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Something uh visual that has something that will will draw people to buy the product ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: because I think everybody's experienced with uh remote controls , and some remote controls are are worth uh throwing out the window . Uh th most of them ar I don't know we're have to come up with a new idea on how to make it a lot easier to use ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: 'cause a lot of times uh spend uh half a day through the instruction book trying to figure out how to use it .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: And uh what abo uh Christine , what about your uh the industrial design plan ? Are you have a design already on this product or uh you're still working on the design ?
Industrial Designer: Um no , I I have not begun working on the design ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and um I uh I actually didn't know we were designing a remote control , I thought we were designing a new monitor . Um the website I went to look at had some announcements about an introduction of a um uh some sort of a seven inch um monitor , and um I understood that that was the project goal . So um I'm glad I didn't d do any work um ahead of time because uh I clearly didn't understand the project goal .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Um I just did s see that we were starting a new project together and there was going to be a four member team composed of these people , and um that's about uh that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and I I read through the different steps , and what my responsibilities were relative to the steps .
Project Manager: So uh you'll be leading the team for your design team or how many members is working in the team , for the design ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh for the industrial design ?
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Um well , I would th think that depends on how much money you give us .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's {gap}
Industrial Designer: Um because uh , you know , you can uh you can make it uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have different choices with different financial models .
Project Manager: Yeah , but uh before we talk about uh the finance , okay , uh do you have some idea how we can uh sell this product or project in the market and how much is going to benefit to the company and uh of course it's to the individual also .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well , you know um , I kind of think that in general you have to do uh um y you have to have something that's very fashionable , that's uh very attractive {disfmarker} that um people see and recognize uh its goal , and uh they immediately wanna have it uh have one of their own . So it would {disfmarker} really would need to um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} something like the iPod would be good , seems to have caught on fairly well ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so um d uh you know , I don't care what it does , just so it looks cool .
Project Manager: Okay , but uh uh when you think you can give me like a kind of design on the functional design or the technical design ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well , uh I've got a lot of other projects I'm doing right now um and so I'll have to wait and see how those uh how those go . If they uh go quickly then uh it could be a month . If um if I run into any problems in my other projects it might be six months .
Project Manager: Yeah , but uh I need something in the writing , so like uh what's your functional design , what's your technical design , and uh how many people you need for this project , and what's the time frame you're looking , okay , and what is the budget , maybe uh initial budget you're looking , okay , and uh how is going to the market , okay ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: so you've you've had to meet with the marketing team and how they're going to market and what are the marketing strategic plan , okay , when are you going to introduce , okay , and by the time you introduce the product and uh you know there there would be a competition , okay , so I need some kind of uh uh the plan in the writing from you . Okay , and it's po
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And when would you like that ?
Project Manager: B as soon as possible .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh well if uh if we have enough time uh then d do you think um two weeks is a {disfmarker} is close enough ?
Project Manager: Yes I think uh that would be good , because I need to go to the management and uh tell them what we are going to do , and uh what cost is , okay , and what's the time frame and what's the project plan , because uh without any uh documentations , I cannot go to the management and say , so we are going to do this and we need this much money , okay , so then it's it's difficult for me to say , okay , that's the reason I need uh some kind of plan from you , initially , okay , then we can have the further discussion again .
Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound} are there other people who will be contributing to the plan ?
Project Manager: Yes , of course , if you need some help , uh so let me know . So , who are the people you need uh from the marketing or uh the technical side or uh the administration point of view , okay , to add in any documentation , or some technical point of view ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so just let me know so I can uh coordinate all the teams .
Industrial Designer: Okay , I'll get back to you on that .
Project Manager: Yes . Thank you . Okay . And uh Ed uh so what's {disfmarker} what do you think about uh this uh project for the remote control and d do you have some already planned something for your marketing strategy or uh the sales strategy ?
Marketing: Well not yet other than uh doing research and taking remote controls and looking what other companies have to do uh , what they're building , their designs , their ideas ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Hmm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: uh also have to pinpoint which market we're gonna go into .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: It should be a fairly large market because uh the number of people that uh {disfmarker} the competition ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: uh th I agree it has to be something {disfmarker} it has to be something new , it has to be something that that draws people saying eh , I like this . Whether it works or not , they have to first say I like this , I like the design , and then it's gotta be simple to use .
Project Manager: Yes , so what I uh prefer maybe uh you need to interact uh more with the Christine , okay , because you know what she is going to do it , okay , and you know how to sell it . Okay , because uh she is doing the design , but you are the core because you are in the marketing , okay ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: so because you need to sell {disfmarker} and you're the responsible for the all the money , the finance , okay , tomorrow .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So , what I prefer , okay , so you need to interact with the Christine more and uh within her team , okay , who is using the functional design or technical design , okay ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and uh you need to come up with some kind of plan , okay , how we are going to do the {disfmarker} your sales plan , okay , th
Marketing: Do we already have a cost limit on this , th an idea of how much uh we want to market this for , how much it's gonna sell for ,
Project Manager: Th That {disfmarker} that's
Marketing: that's up that's up to us to decide , eh ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes , that's {disfmarker} you have to decide , okay , so the best thing is you {disfmarker} uh both of uh the Christine and you discuss with yourself , okay , and come up with the cost , and how we are going to compete in the market , okay , in the the technically , or in the sales wise , okay , the commercial wise , okay . Then uh we have to design , okay , how long it will take the whole project , okay , how much is going to cost us , and how much we are going to benefit for the company . Okay , of course it's it's uh of benefit for everybody individually . Okay , so I think it's uh maybe if we can uh give me some kind of your uh the sales plan , okay , including the technical what uh she's going to talk to you within the team , okay , then it will help me to discuss with the management for further , okay , and put it in the the proper project plan . Okay , and if you need uh any coordination in between uh compared to the maybe the some technical vendors or commercial vendors , okay , depends if you want to have some uh uh marketing plan or technical plan , okay , so you let me know .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Very good .
Project Manager: Okay , I can coordinate ,
Marketing: Very good .
Project Manager: or maybe uh , you are my coordinator , am I right ?
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Between uh all the coor
User Interface: Well , no , not exactly . I mean my job from what I understood was to look at the usability requirements and make sure that the product is usable , it's acceptable to the people who are gonna use it and look at the best ways to do that .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: So I think I'll have to interact with Christine and discuss with her , so that she's not designing something that my studies will show right off the bat that it's not going to work ,
Project Manager: Th Christine , yeah {vocalsound} . Which is {disfmarker}
User Interface: and so it's sort of {disfmarker} it's a loop that feeds in , but I don't think necessarily that I'm in a coordinating position for it .
Project Manager: Yes . Yeah , so basically you need to interact with Christine more , okay , for the user acceptability , okay , and the testing , okay ,
User Interface: Yeah . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: then you will {disfmarker}
User Interface: Which will also feed into the marketing ,
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: because depending on what users want , depends on how you sell it , what tag lines you attach to it , how you try to make it more attractive to users .
Project Manager: Yes . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: So I think all three groups will need to interact quite a bit . Um , and then I guess build the plan based on all of that , because I think you need to take all the factors into account .
Project Manager: Yep . But what I request , okay , {gap} keep Ed in the loop , okay , in between your uh meeting and Christine meeting , because uh he should know what's happening .
User Interface: Yeah , of course {vocalsound} . Yeah , we can C_C_ him on any discussions or documents that are passed around .
Project Manager: Yes . Okay and please please copy all the mails , okay , all the discussions to me , okay , so I need to submit to the management .
User Interface: Sure . No problem .
Project Manager: So any questions for uh time being ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No .
User Interface: So , the immediate next step is to start determining the functional design , or
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: {disfmarker} okay .
Project Manager: Okay . To come up with the functional design and uh to discuss with Ed , okay , and how it's going to be work , and uh first of all with your user acceptance , okay , how it looks like and how it's going to be work in the market , okay ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: so then we can discuss about uh further things . So , we'll meet when the {disfmarker} we'll discuss on the further meeting .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: It's okay ? Thanks for coming .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Would you mind um at the conclusion of our meeting could could you send us a copy of your slides ?
Project Manager: Yes , I will . Yes .
User Interface: Mm-hmm , yeah , that would be useful .
Project Manager: I'll copy , uh le let us keep all the emails and all the copies , okay , share each other , okay , so you know everybody what's happening , okay ?
User Interface: Sure .
Project Manager: And if anything you need anytime so please either you can call me , or just send me email , or uh just come and uh knock my door , okay , so I'm available here . It's good ? Okay , thanks for coming and uh I wish you a nice time then .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
User Interface: Thanks .
Project Manager: Okay , see you later . Bye .
User Interface: Thank you .
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PhD A: It 's not very significant .
Professor B: Uh , channel one . Yes .
Grad D: Channel three .
Professor B: OK .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Channel three .
PhD A: Ta
Grad D: Channel three . Alright .
Professor B: OK , did you solve speech recognition last week ?
Grad E: Almost .
Professor B: Alright ! Let 's do image processing .
PhD C: Yes , again .
PhD A: Great .
PhD C: We did it again , Morgan .
Professor B: Alright !
Grad E: Doo - doop , doo - doo .
PhD A: What 's wrong with {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: OK . It 's April fifth . Actually , Hynek should be getting back in town shortly if he isn't already .
PhD C: Is he gonna come here ?
Professor B: Uh . Well , we 'll drag him here . I know where he is .
PhD C: So when you said " in town " , you mean {pause} Oregon .
Professor B: U u u u uh , I meant , you know , this end of the world , yeah , {vocalsound} is really what I meant ,
PhD C: Oh .
Grad E: Doo , doo - doo .
Professor B: uh , cuz he 's been in Europe .
Grad E: Doo - doo .
Professor B: So .
PhD C: I have something just fairly brief to report on .
Professor B: Mmm .
PhD C: Um , I did some {pause} experim uh , uh , just a few more experiments before I had to , {vocalsound} uh , go away for the w well , that week .
Professor B: Great !
PhD C: Was it last week or whenever ? Um , so what I was started playing with was the {disfmarker} th again , this is the HTK back - end . And , um , I was curious because the way that they train up the models , {vocalsound} they go through about four sort of rounds of {disfmarker} of training . And in the first round they do {disfmarker} uh , I think it 's three iterations , and for the last three rounds e e they do seven iterations of re - estimation in each of those three . And so , you know , that 's part of what takes so long to train the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the back - end for this .
Professor B: I 'm sorry , I didn't quite get that . There 's {disfmarker} there 's four and there 's seven and {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry .
PhD C: Yeah . Uh , maybe I should write it on the board . So , {vocalsound} there 's four rounds of training . Um , I g I g I guess you could say iterations . The first one is three , then seven , seven , and seven . And what these numbers refer to is the number of times that the , uh , HMM re - estimation is run . It 's this program called H E
Professor B: But in HTK , what 's the difference between , uh , a {disfmarker} an inner loop and an outer loop in these iterations ?
PhD C: OK . So what happens is , um , at each one of these points , you increase the number of Gaussians in the model .
Professor B: Yeah . Oh , right ! This was the mix up stuff .
PhD C: Yeah . The mix up .
Professor B: That 's right .
PhD C: Right .
Professor B: I remember now .
PhD C: And so , in the final one here , you end up with , uh {disfmarker} for all of the {disfmarker} the digit words , you end up with , uh , three {pause} mixtures per state ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: eh , in the final {pause} thing . So I had done some experiments where I was {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to play with the number of mixtures .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: But , um , uh , I wanted to first test to see if we actually need to do {pause} this many iterations early on .
Grad E: Uh , one , two ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: And so , um , I {disfmarker} I ran a couple of experiments where I {vocalsound} reduced that to l to be three , two , two , {vocalsound} uh , five , I think , and I got almost the exact same results .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: And {disfmarker} but it runs much much faster . So , um , I {disfmarker} I think m {pause} it only took something like , uh , three or four hours to do the full training ,
Professor B: As opposed to {disfmarker} ?
PhD F: Good .
PhD C: as opposed to wh what , sixteen hours or something like that ? I mean , it takes {disfmarker} you have to do an overnight basically , the way it is set up now .
PhD F: Yeah . It depends .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: So , uh , even we don't do anything else , doing something like this could allow us to turn experiments around a lot faster .
Professor B: And then when you have your final thing , do a full one , so it 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: And when you have your final thing , we go back to this .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD C: So , um , and it 's a real simple change to make . I mean , it 's like one little text file you edit and change those numbers , and you don't do anything else .
PhD F: Oh , this is a {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: And then you just run .
PhD F: OK .
PhD C: So it 's a very simple change to make and it doesn't seem to hurt all that much .
PhD A: So you {disfmarker} you run with three , two , two , five ? That 's a
PhD C: So I {disfmarker} Uh , I {disfmarker} I have to look to see what the exact numbers were .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: I {disfmarker} I thought was , like , three , two , two , five ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: but I I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll double check . It was {vocalsound} over a week ago that I did it ,
PhD A: OK . Mm - hmm .
PhD C: so I can't remember exactly .
Grad E: Oh .
PhD C: But , uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: um , but it 's so much faster . I it makes a big difference .
Grad E: Hmm .
PhD C: So we could do a lot more experiments and throw a lot more stuff in there .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor B: That 's great .
PhD C: Um . Oh , the other thing that I did was , um , {vocalsound} I compiled {pause} the HTK stuff for the Linux boxes . So we have this big thing that we got from IBM , which is a five - processor machine . Really fast , but it 's running Linux . So , you can now run your experiments on that machine and you can run five at a time and it runs , {vocalsound} uh , as fast as , you know , uh , five different machines .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: So , um , I 've forgotten now what the name of that machine is but I can {disfmarker} I can send email around about it .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: And so we 've got it {disfmarker} now HTK 's compiled for both the Linux and for , um , the Sparcs . Um , you have to make {disfmarker} you have to make sure that in your dot CSHRC , {vocalsound} um , it detects whether you 're running on the Linux or a {disfmarker} a Sparc and points to the right executables . Uh , and you may not have had that in your dot CSHRC before , if you were always just running the Sparc . So , um ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: uh , I can {disfmarker} I can tell you exactly what you need to do to get all of that to work . But it 'll {disfmarker} it really increases what we can run on .
Grad E: Hmm . Cool .
PhD C: So , {vocalsound} together with the fact that we 've got these {pause} faster Linux boxes and that it takes less time to do {pause} these , um , we should be able to crank through a lot more experiments .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: So .
Grad E: Hmm .
PhD C: So after I did that , then what I wanted to do {comment} was try {pause} increasing the number of mixtures , just to see , um {disfmarker} see how {disfmarker} how that affects performance .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: So .
Professor B: Yeah . In fact , you could do something like {pause} keep exactly the same procedure and then add a fifth thing onto it
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: that had more .
PhD C: Exactly .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Right . Right .
Grad E: So at {disfmarker} at the middle o where the arrows are showing , that 's {disfmarker} you 're adding one more mixture per state ,
PhD C: Uh - huh . Uh ,
Grad E: or {disfmarker} ?
PhD C: let 's see , uh . It goes from this {disfmarker} uh , try to go it backwards {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} at this point it 's two mixtures {pause} per state . So this just adds one . Except that , uh , actually for the silence model , it 's six mixtures per state .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Uh , so it goes to two .
Grad E: OK .
PhD C: Um . And I think what happens here is {disfmarker}
Professor B: Might be between , uh , shared , uh {disfmarker} shared variances or something ,
PhD C: Yeah . I think that 's what it is .
Professor B: or {disfmarker}
PhD C: Uh , yeah . It 's , uh {disfmarker} Shoot . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I can't remember now what happens at that first one . Uh , I have to look it up and see .
Grad E: Oh , OK .
PhD C: Um , there {disfmarker} because they start off with , uh , an initial model which is just this global model , and then they split it to the individuals . And so , {vocalsound} it may be that that 's what 's happening here . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have to look it up and see . I {disfmarker} I don't exactly remember .
Grad E: OK .
Professor B: OK .
PhD C: So . That 's it .
Professor B: Alright . So what else ?
PhD A: Um . Yeah . There was a conference call this Tuesday . Um . I don't know yet the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} what happened {vocalsound} Tuesday , but {vocalsound} the points that they were supposed to discuss is still , {vocalsound} uh , things like {vocalsound} the weights , uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh , this is a conference call for , uh , uh , Aurora participant sort of thing .
Grad E: For {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor B: I see .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor B: Do you know who was {disfmarker} who was {disfmarker} since we weren't in on it , uh , do you know who was in from OGI ? Was {disfmarker} {vocalsound} was {disfmarker} was Hynek involved or was it Sunil
PhD A: I have no idea .
Professor B: or {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: Mmm , I just {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh , you don't know . OK .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: Alright .
PhD A: Um , yeah . So the points were the {disfmarker} the weights {disfmarker} how to weight the different error rates {vocalsound} that are obtained from different language and {disfmarker} and conditions . Um , it 's not clear that they will keep the same kind of weighting . Right now it 's a weighting on {disfmarker} on improvement .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Some people are arguing that it would be better to have weights on uh {disfmarker} well , to {disfmarker} to combine error rates {pause} before computing improvement . Uh , and the fact is that for {disfmarker} right now for {pause} the English , they have weights {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they combine error rates , but for the other languages they combine improvement . So it 's not very consistent . Um {disfmarker}
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Yeah . The , um {disfmarker} Yeah . And so {disfmarker} Well , {vocalsound} this is a point . And right now actually there is a thing also , {vocalsound} uh , that happens with the current weight is that a very non - significant improvement {pause} on the well - matched case result in {pause} huge differences in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} in the final number .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: And so , perhaps they will change the weights to {disfmarker}
PhD C: Hmm .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: How should that be done ? I mean , it {disfmarker} it seems like there 's a simple way {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Uh , this seems like an obvious mistake or something .
Professor B: Well , I mean , the fact that it 's inconsistent is an obvious mistake .
PhD C: Th - they 're {disfmarker}
Professor B: But the {disfmarker} but , um , the other thing {disfmarker}
PhD A: In
Professor B: I don't know I haven't thought it through , but one {disfmarker} one would think that {vocalsound} each {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's like if you say what 's the {disfmarker} what 's the best way to do an average , an arithmetic average or a geometric average ?
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: It depends what you wanna show .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Each {disfmarker} each one is gonna have a different characteristic .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: So {disfmarker}
PhD C: Well , it seems like they should do , like , the percentage improvement or something , rather than the {pause} absolute improvement .
PhD A: Tha - that 's what they do .
Professor B: Well , they are doing that .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: No , that is relative . But the question is , do you average the relative improvements {pause} or do you average the error rates and take the relative improvement maybe of that ?
PhD A: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor B: And the thing is it 's not just a pure average because there are these weightings .
PhD C: Oh .
Professor B: It 's a weighted average . Um .
PhD A: Yeah . And so when you average the {disfmarker} the relative improvement it tends to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to give a lot of {disfmarker} of , um , {vocalsound} importance to the well - matched case because {pause} the baseline is already very good and , um , i it 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: Why don't they not look at improvements but just look at your av your scores ? You know , figure out how to combine the scores
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: with a weight or whatever , and then give you a score {disfmarker} here 's your score . And then they can do the same thing for the baseline system {disfmarker} and here 's its score . And then you can look at {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Well , that 's what he 's seeing as one of the things they could do .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: It 's just when you {disfmarker} when you get all done , I think that they pro I m I {disfmarker} I wasn't there but I think they started off this process with the notion that {vocalsound} you should be {pause} significantly better than the previous standard .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And , um , so they said " how much is significantly better ? what do you {disfmarker} ? " And {disfmarker} and so they said " well , {vocalsound} you know , you should have half the errors , " or something , " that you had before " .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Hmm .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: So it 's , uh , But it does seem like
PhD C: Hmm .
Professor B: i i it does seem like it 's more logical to combine them first and then do the {disfmarker}
PhD A: Combine error rates and then {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah . Well {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: But there is this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} is this still this problem of weights . When {disfmarker} when you combine error rate it tends to {pause} give more importance to the difficult cases , and some people think that {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh , yeah ?
PhD A: well , they have different , {vocalsound} um , opinions about this . Some people think that {vocalsound} it 's more important to look at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to have ten percent imp relative improvement on {pause} well - matched case than to have fifty percent on the m mismatched , and other people think that it 's more important to improve a lot on the mismatch and {disfmarker} So , bu
PhD C: It sounds like they don't really have a good idea about what the final application is gonna be .
PhD A: l de fff ! Mmm .
Professor B: Well , you know , the {disfmarker} the thing is {vocalsound} that if you look at the numbers on the {disfmarker} on the more difficult cases , {vocalsound} um , if you really believe that was gonna be the predominant use , {vocalsound} none of this would be good enough .
PhD A: Yeah . Mmm . Yeah .
Professor B: Nothing anybody 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: whereas {vocalsound} you sort of with some reasonable error recovery could imagine in the better cases that these {disfmarker} these systems working . So , um , I think the hope would be that it would {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , it would work well {pause} for the good cases and , uh , it would have reasonable {disfmarker} reas {vocalsound} soft degradation as you got to worse and worse conditions . Um .
PhD C: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I guess what I 'm {disfmarker} I mean , I {disfmarker} I was thinking about it in terms of , if I were building the final product and I was gonna test to see which front - end I 'd {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I wanted to use , I would {vocalsound} try to {pause} weight things depending on the exact environment that I was gonna be using the system in .
Professor B: But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} No .
PhD C: If I {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well , no {disfmarker} well , no . I mean , {vocalsound} it isn't the operating theater . I mean , they don they {disfmarker} they don't {disfmarker} they don't really {pause} know , I think .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: I mean , I th
PhD C: So if {disfmarker} if they don't know , doesn't that suggest the way for them to go ? Uh , you assume everything 's equal . I mean , y y I mean , you {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well , I mean , I {disfmarker} I think one thing to do is to just not rely on a single number {disfmarker} to maybe have two or three numbers ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: you know ,
PhD C: Right .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and say {vocalsound} here 's how much you , uh {disfmarker} you improve {vocalsound} the , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the relatively clean case and here 's {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or well - matched case , and here 's how {disfmarker} here 's how much you ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: uh {disfmarker}
PhD C: So not {disfmarker}
Professor B: So .
PhD C: So not try to combine them .
Professor B: Yeah . Uh , actually it 's true .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Uh , I had forgotten this , uh , but , uh , well - matched is not actually clean . What it is is just that , u uh , the training and testing are similar .
PhD C: The training and testing .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor B: So , I guess what you would do in practice is you 'd try to get as many , {vocalsound} uh , examples of similar sort of stuff as you could , and then ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: uh {disfmarker} So the argument for that being the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the more important thing , {vocalsound} is that you 're gonna try and do that , {vocalsound} but you wanna see how badly it deviates from that when {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when the , uh {disfmarker} it 's a little different .
PhD C: So {disfmarker}
Professor B: Um ,
PhD C: so you should weight those other conditions v very {disfmarker} you know , really small .
Professor B: But {disfmarker} No . That 's a {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker} that 's an arg
PhD C: I mean , that 's more of an information kind of thing .
Professor B: that 's an ar Well , that 's an argument for it , but let me give you the opposite argument . The opposite argument is you 're never really gonna have a good sample of all these different things .
PhD C: Uh - huh .
Professor B: I mean , are you gonna have w uh , uh , examples with the windows open , half open , full open ? Going seventy , sixty , fifty , forty miles an hour ? On what kind of roads ?
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: With what passing you ? With {disfmarker} uh , I mean ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that you could make the opposite argument that the well - matched case is a fantasy .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: You know , so ,
Grad E: Uh - huh .
Professor B: I think the thing is is that if you look at the well - matched case versus the po you know , the {disfmarker} the medium and the {disfmarker} and the fo and then the mismatched case , {vocalsound} um , we 're seeing really , really big differences in performance . Right ? And {disfmarker} and y you wouldn't like that to be the case . You wouldn't like that as soon as you step outside {disfmarker} You know , a lot of the {disfmarker} the cases it 's {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}
PhD C: Well , that 'll teach them to roll their window up .
Professor B: I mean , in these cases , if you go from the {disfmarker} the , uh {disfmarker} I mean , I don't remember the numbers right off , but if you {disfmarker} if you go from the well - matched case to the medium , {vocalsound} it 's not an enormous difference in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} the training - testing situation , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and it 's a really big {vocalsound} performance drop .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: You know , so , um {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean the reference one , for instance {disfmarker} this is back old on , uh {disfmarker} on Italian {disfmarker} uh , was like {pause} six percent error for the well - matched and eighteen for the medium - matched and sixty for the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for highly - mismatched . Uh , and , you know , with these other systems we {disfmarker} we {vocalsound} helped it out quite a bit , but still there 's {disfmarker} there 's something like a factor of two or something between well - matched and medium - matched . And {vocalsound} so I think that {vocalsound} if what you 're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if the goal of this is to come up with robust features , it does mean {disfmarker} So you could argue , in fact , that the well - matched is something you shouldn't be looking at at all , that {disfmarker} that the goal is to come up with features {vocalsound} that will still give you reasonable performance , you know , with again gentle degregra degradation , um , even though the {disfmarker} the testing condition is not the same as the training .
PhD C: Hmm .
Professor B: So , you know , I {disfmarker} I could argue strongly that something like the medium mismatch , which is you know not compl pathological but {disfmarker} I mean , what was the {disfmarker} the medium - mismatch condition again ?
PhD A: Um , {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} Yeah . Medium mismatch is everything with the far {pause} microphone , but trained on , like , low noisy condition , like low speed and {disfmarker} or {pause} stopped car and tested on {pause} high - speed conditions , I think , like on a highway and {disfmarker}
Professor B: Right .
PhD A: So {disfmarker}
Professor B: So it 's still the same {disfmarker} same microphone in both cases ,
PhD A: Same microphone but {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor B: but , uh , it 's {disfmarker} there 's a mismatch between the car conditions . And that 's {disfmarker} uh , you could argue that 's a pretty realistic situation
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and , uh , I 'd almost argue for weighting that highest . But the way they have it now , {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} I guess it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} They {disfmarker} they compute the relative improvement first and then average that with a weighting ?
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: And so then the {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that makes the highly - matched the really big thing .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Um , so , u i since they have these three categories , it seems like the reasonable thing to do {vocalsound} is to go across the languages {pause} and to come up with an improvement for each of those .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Just say " OK , in the {disfmarker} in the highly - matched case this is what happens , in the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} m the , uh {disfmarker} this other m medium if this happens , in the highly - mismatched {pause} that happens " .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And , uh , you should see , uh , a gentle degradation {pause} through that .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor B: Um . But {disfmarker} I don't know .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: I think that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I gather that in these meetings it 's {disfmarker} it 's really tricky to make anything {vocalsound} ac {vocalsound} make any {comment} policy change because {vocalsound} {vocalsound} everybody has {disfmarker} has , uh , their own opinion
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} I don't know .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: Uh , so {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , but there is probably a {disfmarker} a big change that will {vocalsound} be made is that the {disfmarker} the baseline {disfmarker} th they want to have a new baseline , perhaps , which is , um , MFCC but with {vocalsound} a voice activity detector . And apparently , {vocalsound} uh , some people are pushing to still keep this fifty percent number . So they want {vocalsound} to have at least fifty percent improvement on the baseline , but w which would be a much better baseline .
Professor B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD A: And if we look at the result that Sunil sent , {vocalsound} just putting the VAD in the baseline improved , like , more than twenty percent ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: which would mean then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} mean that fifty percent on this new baseline is like , well , more than sixty percent improvement on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} o e e uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: So nobody would {pause} be there , probably . Right ?
PhD A: Right now , nobody would be there , but {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor B: Good . Work to do .
PhD A: Uh - huh .
Professor B: So whose VAD is {disfmarker} Is {disfmarker} is this a {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: Uh , they didn't decide yet . I guess i this was one point of the conference call also , but {disfmarker} mmm , so I don't know . Um , but {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad E: Oh .
Professor B: Oh , I {disfmarker} I think th that would be {vocalsound} good . I mean , it 's not that the design of the VAD isn't important , but it 's just that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does seem to be i uh , a lot of {pause} work to do a good job on {disfmarker} on that and as well as being a lot of work to do a good job on the feature {vocalsound} design ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: so
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: if we can {pause} cut down on that maybe we can make some progress .
PhD A: M Yeah .
Grad E: Hmm .
PhD A: But I guess perhaps {disfmarker} I don't know w {vocalsound} Yeah . Uh , yeah . Per - e s s someone told that perhaps it 's not fair to do that because the , um {disfmarker} to make a good VAD {pause} you don't have enough to {disfmarker} with the {disfmarker} the features that are {disfmarker} the baseline features . So {disfmarker} mmm , you need more features . So you really need to put more {disfmarker} more in the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the front - end .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: So i
Professor B: Um ,
PhD A: S
Professor B: sure . But i bu
PhD C: Wait a minute . I {disfmarker} I 'm confused .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: Wha - what do you mean ?
PhD A: Yeah , if i
Professor B: So y so you m s Yeah , but {disfmarker} Well , let 's say for ins see , MFCC for instance doesn't have anything in it , uh , related to the pitch . So just {disfmarker} just for example . So suppose you 've {disfmarker} that {vocalsound} what you really wanna do is put a good pitch detector on there and if it gets an unambiguous {disfmarker}
PhD C: Oh , oh . I see .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: if it gets an unambiguous result then you 're definitely in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in a voice in a , uh , s region with speech . Uh .
PhD C: So there 's this assumption that the v the voice activity detector can only use the MFCC ?
PhD A: That 's not clear , but this {disfmarker} {vocalsound} e
Professor B: Well , for the baseline .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: So {disfmarker} so if you use other features then y But it 's just a question of what is your baseline . Right ? What is it that you 're supposed to do better than ?
PhD C: I g Yeah .
Professor B: And so having the baseline be the MFCC 's {pause} means that people could {pause} choose to pour their ener their effort into trying to do a really good VAD
PhD C: I don't s But they seem like two {pause} separate issues .
Professor B: or tryi They 're sort of separate .
PhD C: Right ? I mean {disfmarker}
Professor B: Unfortunately there 's coupling between them , which is part of what I think Stephane is getting to , is that {vocalsound} you can choose your features in such a way as to improve the VAD .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: And you also can choose your features in such a way as to prove {disfmarker} improve recognition . They may not be the same thing .
PhD C: But it seems like you should do both .
Professor B: You should do both
PhD C: Right ?
Professor B: and {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} I think that this still makes {disfmarker} I still think this makes sense as a baseline . It 's just saying , as a baseline , we know {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor B: you know , we had the MFCC 's before , lots of people have done voice activity detectors ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: you might as well pick some voice activity detector and make that the baseline , just like you picked some version of HTK and made that the baseline .
PhD A: Yeah . Right .
Professor B: And then {pause} let 's try and make everything better . Um , and if one of the ways you make it better is by having your features {pause} be better features for the VAD then that 's {disfmarker} so be it .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But , uh , uh , uh , at least you have a starting point that 's {disfmarker} um , cuz i i some of {disfmarker} the some of the people didn't have a VAD at all , I guess . Right ? And {disfmarker} and
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: then they {disfmarker} they looked pretty bad and {disfmarker} and in fact what they were doing wasn't so bad at all .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But , um .
PhD C: Yeah . It seems like you should try to make your baseline as good as possible . And if it turns out that {pause} you can't improve on that , well , I mean , then , you know , nobody wins and you just use MFCC . Right ?
Professor B: Yeah . I mean , it seems like , uh , it should include sort of the current state of the art {vocalsound} that you want {disfmarker} are trying to improve , and MFCC 's , you know , or PLP or something {disfmarker} it seems like {vocalsound} reasonable baseline for the features , and anybody doing this task , {vocalsound} uh , is gonna have some sort of voice activity detection at some level , in some way . They might use the whole recognizer to do it {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} rather than {vocalsound} a separate thing , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but they 'll have it on some level . So , um .
PhD C: It seems like whatever they choose they shouldn't , {vocalsound} you know , purposefully brain - damage a part of the system to {pause} make a worse baseline , or {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well , I think people just had
PhD C: You know ?
Professor B: it wasn't that they purposely brain - damaged it . I think people hadn't really thought through {vocalsound} about the , uh {disfmarker} the VAD issue .
PhD C: Mmm .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} and then when the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the proposals actually came in and half of them had V A Ds and half of them didn't , and the half that did did well and the {vocalsound} half that didn't did poorly .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So it 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Um .
Professor B: Uh .
PhD A: Yeah . So we 'll see what happen with this . And {disfmarker} Yeah . So what happened since , um , {vocalsound} last week is {disfmarker} well , from OGI , these experiments on {pause} putting VAD on the baseline . And these experiments also are using , uh , some kind of noise compensation , so spectral subtraction , and putting on - line normalization , um , just after this . So I think spectral subtraction , LDA filtering , and on - line normalization , so which is similar to {vocalsound} the pro proposal - one , but with {pause} spectral subtraction in addition , and it seems that on - line normalization doesn't help further when you have spectral subtraction .
PhD C: Is this related to the issue that you brought up a couple of meetings ago with the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} musical tones
PhD A: I {disfmarker}
PhD C: and {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: I have no idea , because the issue I brought up was with a very simple spectral subtraction approach ,
PhD C: Mmm .
PhD A: and the one that {vocalsound} they use at OGI is one from {disfmarker} from {vocalsound} the proposed {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the Aurora prop uh , proposals , which might be much better . So , yeah . I asked {vocalsound} Sunil for more information about that , but , uh , I don't know yet . Um . And what 's happened here is that we {disfmarker} so we have this kind of new , um , reference system which {vocalsound} use a nice {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a clean downsampling - upsampling , which use a new filter {vocalsound} that 's much shorter and which also cuts the frequency below sixty - four hertz ,
Professor B: Right .
PhD A: which was not done on our first proposal .
Professor B: When you say " we have that " , does Sunil have it now , too ,
PhD A: I No .
Professor B: or {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: No .
Professor B: OK .
PhD A: Because we 're still testing . So we have the result for , {vocalsound} uh , just the features
Professor B: OK .
PhD A: and we are currently testing with putting the neural network in the KLT . Um , it seems to improve on the well - matched case , um , {vocalsound} but it 's a little bit worse on the mismatch and highly - mismatched {disfmarker} I mean when we put the neural network . And with the current weighting I think it 's sh it will be better because the well - matched case is better . Mmm .
Professor B: But how much worse {disfmarker} since the weighting might change {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} how much worse is it on the other conditions , when you say it 's a little worse ?
PhD A: It 's like , uh , fff , fff {comment} {vocalsound} {pause} um , {comment} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {pause} ten percent relative . Yeah .
Professor B: OK . Um .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But it has the , uh {disfmarker} the latencies are much shorter . That 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Uh - y w when I say it 's worse , it 's not {disfmarker} it 's when I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} uh , compare proposal - two to proposal - one , so , r uh , y putting neural network {vocalsound} compared to n not having any neural network . I mean , this new system is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is better ,
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD A: because it has {vocalsound} um , this sixty - four hertz cut - off , uh , clean {vocalsound} downsampling , and , um {disfmarker} what else ? Uh , yeah , a good VAD . We put the good VAD . So . Yeah , I don't know . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} j uh , uh {disfmarker} pr
Professor B: But the latencies {disfmarker} but you 've got the latency shorter now .
PhD A: Latency is short {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: Isn't it
PhD A: And so
Professor B: So it 's better than the system that we had before .
PhD A: Yeah . Mainly because {pause} {vocalsound} of {pause} the sixty - four hertz and the good VAD .
Professor B: OK .
PhD A: And then I took this system and , {vocalsound} mmm , w uh , I p we put the old filters also . So we have this good system , with good VAD , with the short filter and with the long filter , and , um , with the short filter it 's not worse . So {disfmarker} well , is it {disfmarker}
Professor B: OK .
PhD A: it 's in {disfmarker}
Professor B: So that 's {disfmarker} that 's all fine .
PhD A: Yes . Uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: But what you 're saying is that when you do these {disfmarker} So let me try to understand . When {disfmarker} when you do these same improvements {vocalsound} to proposal - one ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: that , uh , on the {disfmarker} i things are somewhat better , uh , in proposal - two for the well - matched case and somewhat worse for the other two cases .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: So does , uh {disfmarker} when you say , uh {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} The th now that these other things are in there , is it the case maybe that the additions of proposal - two over proposal - one are {pause} less im important ?
PhD A: Yeah . Probably , yeah .
Professor B: I get it .
PhD A: Um {disfmarker} So , yeah . Uh . Yeah , but it 's a good thing anyway to have {vocalsound} shorter delay . Then we tried , um , {vocalsound} to do something like proposal - two but having , um , e using also MSG features . So there is this KLT part , which use just the standard features ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm . Right .
PhD A: and then two neura two neural networks .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Mmm , and it doesn't seem to help . Um , however , we just have {vocalsound} one result , which is the Italian mismatch , so . Uh . We have to wait for that to fill the whole table , but {disfmarker}
Professor B: OK . There was a {vocalsound} start of some effort on something related to voicing or something . Is that {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: Yeah . Um , {vocalsound} yeah . So basically we try to , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh , find {vocalsound} good features that could be used for voicing detection , uh , but it 's still , uh {disfmarker} on the , um {disfmarker} t
PhD F: Oh , well , I have the picture .
PhD A: we {disfmarker} w basically we are still playing with Matlab to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to look at {disfmarker} at what happened ,
PhD C: What sorts of {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD A: and {disfmarker}
PhD C: what sorts of features are you looking at ?
PhD F: We have some {disfmarker}
PhD A: So we would be looking at , um , the {pause} variance of the spectrum of the excitation ,
PhD F: uh , um , this , this , and this .
PhD A: something like this , which is {disfmarker} should be high for voiced sounds . Uh , we {disfmarker}
PhD C: Wait a minute . I {disfmarker} what does that mean ? The variance of the spectrum of excitation .
PhD A: Yeah . So the {disfmarker} So basically the spectrum of the excitation {vocalsound} for a purely periodic sig signal shou sh
Professor B: OK . Yeah , w what yo what you 're calling the excitation , as I recall , is you 're subtracting the {disfmarker} the , um {disfmarker} the mel {disfmarker} mel {disfmarker} {vocalsound} mel filter , uh , spectrum from the FFT spectrum .
PhD A: e That 's right . Yeah . So {disfmarker}
Professor B: Right .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: So we have the mel f filter bank , we have the FFT , so we {pause} just {disfmarker}
Professor B: So it 's {disfmarker} it 's not really an excitation ,
PhD A: No .
Professor B: but it 's something that hopefully tells you something about the excitation .
PhD A: Yeah , that 's right .
Professor B: Yeah , yeah .
PhD A: Um {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD F: We have here some histogram ,
PhD A: E yeah ,
PhD F: but they have a lot of overlap .
PhD A: but it 's {disfmarker} it 's still {disfmarker} Yeah . So , well , for unvoiced portion we have something tha {vocalsound} that has a mean around O point three , and for voiced portion the mean is O point fifty - nine . But the variance seem quite {vocalsound} high .
PhD C: How do you know {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: So {disfmarker} Mmm .
PhD C: How did you get your {pause} voiced and unvoiced truth data ?
PhD A: We used , uh , TIMIT and we used canonical mappings between the phones
PhD F: Yeah . We , uh , use {pause} TIMIT on this ,
PhD A: and
PhD F: for {disfmarker}
PhD A: th Yeah .
PhD F: But if we look at it in one sentence , it {disfmarker} apparently it 's good , I think .
PhD A: Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah . Uh , so it 's noisy TIMIT . That 's right . Yeah .
Grad E: It 's noisy TIMIT .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD A: It seems quite robust to noise , so when we take {disfmarker} we draw its parameters across time for a clean sentence and then nois the same noisy sentence , it 's very close .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Yeah . So there are {disfmarker} there is this . There could be also the , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} something like the maximum of the auto - correlation function or {disfmarker} which {disfmarker}
PhD C: Is this a {disfmarker} a s a trained system ? Or is it a system where you just pick some thresholds ? Ho - how does it work ?
PhD A: Right now we just are trying to find some features . And ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: uh {disfmarker} Yeah . Hopefully , I think what we want to have is to put these features in s some kind of , um {disfmarker} well , to {disfmarker} to obtain a statistical model on these features and to {disfmarker} or just to use a neural network and hopefully these features w would help {disfmarker}
PhD C: Because it seems like what you said about the mean of the {disfmarker} the voiced and the unvoiced {disfmarker} {comment} {vocalsound} that seemed pretty encouraging .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Well , yeah , except the variance was big .
PhD C: Right ?
PhD A: Yeah . Except the variance is quite high .
Professor B: Right ?
PhD C: Well , y
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: Well , y I {disfmarker} I don't know that I would trust that so much because you 're doing these canonical mappings from TIMIT labellings .
PhD A: Uh - huh .
PhD C: Right ? So , really that 's sort of a cartoon picture about what 's voiced and unvoiced . So that could be giving you a lot of variance .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: I mean , i it {disfmarker} it may be that {disfmarker} that you 're finding something good and that the variance is sort of artificial because of how you 're getting your truth .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah . But another way of looking at it {vocalsound} might be that {disfmarker} I mean , what w we we are coming up with feature sets after all . So another way of looking at it is that {vocalsound} um , the mel cepstru mel {pause} spectrum , mel cepstrum , {vocalsound} any of these variants , um , give you the smooth spectrum . It 's the spectral envelope . By going back to the FFT , {vocalsound} you 're getting something that is {pause} more like the raw data . So the question is , what characterization {disfmarker} and you 're playing around with this {disfmarker} another way of looking at it is what characterization {vocalsound} of the difference between {pause} the raw data {pause} and this smooth version {pause} is something that you 're missing that could help ? So , I mean , looking at different statistical measures of that difference , coming up with some things and just trying them out and seeing if you add them onto the feature vector does that make things better or worse in noise , where you 're really just i i the way I 'm looking at it is not so much you 're trying to f find the best {disfmarker} the world 's best voiced - unvoiced , uh , uh , classifier ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor B: but it 's more that , {vocalsound} you know , uh , uh , try some different statistical characterizations of that difference back to the raw data
PhD C: Right .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} and m maybe there 's something there that {pause} the system can use .
PhD C: Right .
PhD A: Yeah . Yeah , but ther more obvious is that {disfmarker} Yeah . The {disfmarker} the more obvious is that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} well , using the {disfmarker} th the FFT , um , {vocalsound} you just {disfmarker} it gives you just information about if it 's voiced or not voiced , ma mainly , I mean . But {disfmarker} So ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: this is why we {disfmarker} we started to look {pause} by having sort of voiced phonemes
Professor B: Well , that 's the rea w w what I 'm arguing is that 's Yeah . I mean , uh , what I 'm arguing is that that {disfmarker} that 's givi you {disfmarker} gives you your intuition .
PhD A: and {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But in {disfmarker} in reality , it 's {disfmarker} you know , there 's all of this {disfmarker} this overlap and so forth ,
Grad E: Oh , sorry .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} But what I 'm saying is that may be OK , because what you 're really getting is not actually voiced versus unvoiced , both for the fac the reason of the overlap and {disfmarker} and then , uh , th you know , structural reasons , uh , uh , like the one that Chuck said , that {disfmarker} that in fact , well , the data itself is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that you 're working with is not perfect .
PhD A: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , what I 'm saying is maybe that 's not a killer because you 're just getting some characterization , one that 's driven by your intuition about voiced - unvoiced certainly ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: but it 's just some characterization {vocalsound} of something back in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the almost raw data , rather than the smooth version .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And your intuition is driving you towards particular kinds of , {vocalsound} uh , statistical characterizations of , um , what 's missing from the spectral envelope .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Um , obviously you have something about the excitation , um , and what is it about the excitation , and , you know {disfmarker} and you 're not getting the excitation anyway , you know . So {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I would almost take a {disfmarker} uh , especially if {disfmarker} if these trainings and so forth are faster , I would almost just take a {vocalsound} uh , a scattershot at a few different {vocalsound} ways of look of characterizing that difference and , uh , you could have one of them but {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and see , you know , which of them helps .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . OK .
PhD C: So i is the idea that you 're going to take {pause} whatever features you develop and {disfmarker} and just add them onto the future vector ? Or , what 's the use of the {disfmarker} the voiced - unvoiced detector ?
PhD A: Uh , I guess we don't know exactly yet . But , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} Yeah . Th
PhD C: It 's not part of a VAD system that you 're doing ?
PhD F: No .
PhD A: Uh , no . No .
PhD C: Oh , OK .
PhD A: No , the idea was , I guess , to {disfmarker} to use them as {disfmarker} as features .
PhD C: Features . I see .
PhD A: Uh {disfmarker} Yeah , it could be , uh {disfmarker} it could be {vocalsound} a neural network that does voiced and unvoiced detection ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: but it could be in the {disfmarker} also the big neural network that does phoneme classification .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Mmm . Yeah .
Professor B: But each one of the mixture components {disfmarker} I mean , you have , uh , uh , variance only , so it 's kind of like you 're just multiplying together these , um , probabilities from the individual features {pause} within each mixture . So it 's {disfmarker} so , uh , it seems l you know {disfmarker}
PhD C: I think it 's a neat thing . Uh , it seems like a good idea .
Professor B: Yeah . Um . Yeah . I mean , {vocalsound} I know that , um , people doing some robustness things a ways back were {disfmarker} were just doing {disfmarker} just being gross and just throwing in the FFT and actually it wasn't {disfmarker} wasn't {disfmarker} wasn't so bad . Uh , so it would s and {disfmarker} and you know that i it 's gotta hurt you a little bit to not have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a spectral , uh {disfmarker} a s a smooth spectral envelope , so there must be something else that you get {pause} in return for that {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: that , uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} So .
PhD C: So how does {disfmarker} uh , maybe I 'm going in too much detail , but {vocalsound} how exactly do you make the difference between the FFT and the smoothed {pause} spectral envelope ? Wha - wh i i uh , how is that , uh {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: Um , we just {disfmarker} How did we do it up again ?
PhD F: Uh , we distend the {disfmarker} we have the twenty - three coefficient af after the mel f {vocalsound} filter ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: and we extend these coefficient between the {disfmarker} all the frequency range .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: And i the interpolation i between the point {vocalsound} is {disfmarker} give for the triang triangular filter , the value of the triangular filter and of this way we obtained this mode this model speech .
PhD A: S
Professor B: So you essentially take the values that {disfmarker} th that you get from the triangular filter and extend them to sor sort of like a rectangle , that 's at that m value .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah . I think we have linear interpolation .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: So we have {disfmarker} we have one point for {disfmarker} one energy for each filter bank ,
PhD F: mmm Yeah , it 's linear .
PhD C: Mmm .
Professor B: Oh .
PhD A: which is {pause} the energy {pause} that 's centered on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on the triangle {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah . At the n at the center of the filter {disfmarker}
PhD C: So you {disfmarker} you end up with a vector that 's the same length as the FFT {pause} vector ?
PhD A: Yeah . That 's right .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD C: And then you just , uh , compute differences
PhD F: Yeah . I have here one example if you {disfmarker} if you want see something like that .
PhD A: Then we compute the difference .
PhD C: and ,
PhD A: Yeah . Uh - huh .
Professor B: OK .
PhD C: uh , sum the differences ?
PhD A: So . And I think the variance is computed only from , like , two hundred hertz to {pause} one {disfmarker} to fifteen hundred .
PhD C: Oh ! OK .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Two thou two {disfmarker} {comment} fifteen hundred ?
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Because {disfmarker}
PhD F: No .
Professor B: Right .
PhD F: Two hundred and fifty thousand .
PhD A: Fifteen hundred . Because {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah . Two thousand and fifteen hundred .
PhD A: Above , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it seems that {disfmarker} Well , some voiced sound can have also , {vocalsound} like , a noisy {pause} part on high frequencies , and {disfmarker} But {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: Well , it 's just {disfmarker}
Professor B: No , it 's {disfmarker} makes sense to look at {pause} low frequencies .
PhD C: So this is {disfmarker} uh , basically this is comparing {vocalsound} an original version of the signal to a smoothed version of the same signal ?
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor B: Right . So i so i i this is {disfmarker} I mean , i you could argue about whether it should be linear interpolation or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or zeroeth order , but {disfmarker} but
PhD C: Uh - huh .
Professor B: at any rate something like this {pause} is what you 're feeding your recognizer , typically .
PhD C: Like which of the {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: No . Uh , so the mel cepstrum is the {disfmarker} is the {disfmarker} is the cepstrum of this {disfmarker} {vocalsound} this , uh , spectrum or log spectrum ,
PhD A: So this is {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah . Right , right .
Professor B: whatever it {disfmarker} You - you 're subtracting in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {vocalsound} power domain or log domain ?
PhD A: In log domain . Yeah .
PhD F: Log domain .
Professor B: OK . So it 's sort of like division , when you do the {disfmarker} yeah , the spectra .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD A: Uh , yeah .
PhD C: It 's the ratio .
Professor B: Um . Yeah . But , anyway , um {disfmarker} and that 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: So what 's th uh , what 's the intuition behind this kind of a thing ? I {disfmarker} I don't know really know the signal - processing well enough to understand what {disfmarker} {vocalsound} what is that doing .
PhD A: So . Yeah . What happen if {disfmarker} what we have {disfmarker} have {disfmarker} what we would like to have is {pause} some spectrum of the excitation signal ,
Professor B: Yeah . I guess that makes sense . Yeah .
PhD A: which is for voiced sound ideally a {disfmarker} a pulse train
PhD C: Uh - huh .
PhD A: and for unvoiced it 's something that 's more flat .
PhD C: Uh - huh . Right .
PhD A: And the way to do this {vocalsound} is that {disfmarker} well , we have the {disfmarker} we have the FFT because it 's computed in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the system , and we have {vocalsound} the mel {vocalsound} filter banks ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD A: and so if we {disfmarker} if we , like , remove the mel filter bank from the FFT , {vocalsound} we have something that 's {pause} close to the {pause} excitation signal .
Grad E: Oh .
PhD A: It 's something that 's like {vocalsound} a {disfmarker} a a train of p a pulse train for voiced sound
PhD C: OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Oh ! OK . Yeah .
PhD A: and that 's {disfmarker} that should be flat for {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: I see . So do you have a picture that sh ?
PhD A: So - It 's {disfmarker} Y
PhD C: Is this for a voiced segment ,
PhD A: yeah .
PhD C: this picture ? What does it look like for unvoiced ?
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD A: You have several {disfmarker} some unvoiced ?
PhD F: The dif No . Unvoiced , I don't have
PhD A: Oh .
PhD F: for unvoiced .
Professor B: Yeah . So , you know , all {disfmarker}
PhD F: I 'm sorry .
PhD A: But {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah . This is the {disfmarker} between {disfmarker}
PhD A: This is another voiced example . Yeah .
PhD F: No . But it 's this ,
PhD A: Oh , yeah . This is {disfmarker}
PhD F: but between the frequency that we are considered for the excitation {disfmarker}
PhD A: Right . Mm - hmm .
PhD F: for the difference and this is the difference .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: This is the difference . OK .
PhD A: So , of course , it 's around zero ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: Sure looks {disfmarker}
PhD A: but {disfmarker}
Grad E: Hmm .
PhD A: Well , no .
PhD C: Hmm .
PhD A: It is {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah . Because we begin , {vocalsound} uh , in fifteen {vocalsound} point {disfmarker} the fifteen point .
PhD C: So , does {disfmarker} does the periodicity of this signal say something about the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}
PhD F: Fifteen p
PhD A: So it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor B: Pitch .
PhD A: It 's the pitch .
PhD C: the pitch ?
PhD A: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: OK .
Professor B: That 's like fundamental frequency .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , I mean , i t t
PhD C: OK . I see .
Professor B: I mean , to first order {vocalsound} what you 'd {disfmarker} what you 're doing {disfmarker} I mean , ignore all the details and all the ways which is {disfmarker} that these are complete lies . Uh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} you know , what you 're doing in feature extraction for speech recognition is you have , {vocalsound} uh , in your head a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a simplified production model for speech ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: in which you have a periodic or aperiodic source that 's driving some filters .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Yeah . This is the {disfmarker} the auto - correlation {disfmarker} the R - zero energy .
PhD A: Do you have the mean {disfmarker} do you have the mean for the auto - correlation {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: Uh , first order for speech recognition , you say " I don't care about the source " .
PhD F: For {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD A: Well , I mean for the {disfmarker} the energy .
PhD F: I have the mean .
Professor B: Right ?
PhD C: Right .
Professor B: And so you just want to find out what the filters are .
PhD C: Right .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor B: The filters {vocalsound} roughly act like a , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a an overall resonant {disfmarker} you know , f some resonances and so forth that th that 's processing excitation .
PhD F: Here .
PhD A: They should be more close .
PhD F: Ah , no . This is this ? More close . Is this ? And this .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: So they are {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} there is less difference .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So if you look at the spectral envelope , just the very smooth properties of it , {vocalsound} you get something closer to that .
PhD A: This is less {disfmarker} it 's less robust .
PhD F: Less robust . Yeah .
PhD A: Oh , yeah .
Professor B: And the notion is if you have the full spectrum , with all the little nitty - gritty details , {vocalsound} that that has the effect of both ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: and it would be a multiplication in {disfmarker} in frequency domain
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: so that would be like an addition in log {disfmarker} {vocalsound} power spectrum domain .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And so this is saying , well , if you really do have that {vocalsound} sort of vocal tract envelope , and you subtract that off , what you get is the excitation . And I call that lies because you don't really have that , you just have some kind of {vocalsound} signal - processing trickery to get something that 's kind of smooth . It 's not really what 's happening in the vocal tract
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: so you 're not really getting the vocal excitation .
PhD C: Right .
Professor B: That 's why I was going to the {disfmarker} why I was referring to it in a more {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a more , uh , {vocalsound} uh , {vocalsound} conservative way , when I was saying " well , it 's {disfmarker} yeah , it 's the excitation " . But it 's not really the excitation . It 's whatever it is that 's different between {disfmarker}
PhD C: Oh . This moved in the {disfmarker}
Professor B: So {disfmarker} so , stand standing back from that , you sort of say there 's this very detailed representation .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: You go to a smooth representation .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: You go to a smooth representation cuz this typically generalizes better .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Um , but whenever you smooth you lose something , so the question is have you lost something you can you use ?
PhD C: Right .
Professor B: Um , probably you wouldn't want to go to the extreme of just ta saying " OK , our feature set will be the FFT " , cuz we really think we do gain something in robustness from going to something smoother , but maybe there 's something that we missed .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So what is it ?
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: And then you go back to the intuition that , well , you don't really get the excitation , but you get something related to it .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And it {disfmarker} and as you can see from those pictures , you do get something {vocalsound} that shows some periodicity , uh , in frequency ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: you know , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and also in time .
PhD C: Hmm .
Professor B: So {disfmarker}
PhD C: That 's {disfmarker} that 's really neat .
Professor B: so ,
PhD C: So you don't have one for unvoiced {pause} picture ?
PhD F: Uh , not here .
PhD C: Oh .
PhD F: No , I have s
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: But not here .
Professor B: But presumably you 'll see something that won't have this kind of , uh , uh , uh , regularity in frequency , uh , in the {disfmarker}
PhD A: But {disfmarker} Yeah . Well .
PhD F: Not here .
PhD C: I would li I would like to see those {pause} pictures .
PhD F: Well , so .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: I can't see you {comment} now .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: I don't have .
PhD C: And so you said this is pretty {disfmarker} doing this kind of thing is pretty robust to noise ?
PhD A: It seems , yeah . Um ,
PhD C: Huh .
PhD F: Pfft . Oops . The mean is different {vocalsound} with it , because the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the histogram for the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the classifica
PhD A: No , no , no . But th the kind of robustness to noise {disfmarker}
PhD F: Oh !
PhD A: So if {disfmarker} if you take this frame , {vocalsound} uh , from the noisy utterance and the same frame from the clean utterance {disfmarker}
PhD F: Hmm .
PhD C: You end up with a similar difference
PhD A: Y y y yeah . We end up with {disfmarker}
PhD C: over here ?
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: OK . Cool !
PhD F: I have here the same frame for the {pause} clean speech {disfmarker}
PhD C: Oh , that 's clean .
PhD F: the same cle
PhD C: Oh , OK
PhD F: But they are a difference .
PhD A: Yeah , that 's {disfmarker}
PhD F: Because here the FFT is only with {vocalsound} two hundred fifty - six point
PhD C: Oh .
PhD F: and this is with five hundred {pause} twelve .
PhD A: Yeah . This is kind of inter interesting also
PhD C: OK .
PhD A: because if we use the standard , {vocalsound} uh , frame length of {disfmarker} of , like , twenty - five milliseconds , {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} what happens is that for low - pitched voiced , because of the frame length , y you don't really have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you don't clearly see this periodic structure ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: because of the first lobe of {disfmarker} of each {disfmarker} each of the harmonics .
PhD C: So this one inclu is a longer {disfmarker} Ah .
PhD A: So , this is like {disfmarker} yeah , fifty milliseconds or something like that .
PhD F: Fifty millis Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah , but it 's the same frame and {disfmarker}
PhD C: Oh , it 's that time - frequency trade - off thing .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: Right ? I see . Yeah .
PhD A: So , yeah .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Oh . Oh , so this i is this the difference here , for that ?
PhD F: No . This is the signal . This is the signal .
PhD A: I see that . Oh , yeah .
PhD F: The frame .
PhD C: Oh , that 's the f the original .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD F: This is the fra the original frame .
PhD A: So with a short frame basically you have only two periods
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD A: and it 's not {disfmarker} not enough to {disfmarker} to have this kind of neat things .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD A: But {disfmarker}
PhD F: And here {disfmarker} No , well .
PhD A: Yeah . So probably we 'll have to use , {vocalsound} like , long f long frames . Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Hmm .
PhD C: Oh .
Professor B: Mmm .
PhD C: That 's interesting .
Professor B: Yeah , maybe . Well , I mean it looks better , but , I mean , the thing is if {disfmarker} if , uh {disfmarker} if you 're actually asking {disfmarker} you know , if you actually j uh , need to do {disfmarker} place along an FFT , it may be {disfmarker} it may be pushing things .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} and , uh {disfmarker}
PhD C: Would you {disfmarker} would you wanna do this kind of , uh , difference thing {vocalsound} after you do spectral subtraction ?
PhD A: Uh , {vocalsound} maybe .
PhD F: No . Maybe we can do that .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor B: Hmm . The spectral subtraction is being done at what level ? Is it being done at the level of FFT bins or at the level of , uh , mel spectrum or something ?
PhD A: Um , I guess it depends .
Professor B: I mean , how are they doing it ?
PhD A: How they 're doing it ? Yeah . Um , I guess Ericsson is on the , um , filter bank ,
PhD F: FFT . Filter bank ,
PhD A: no ? It 's on the filter bank ,
PhD F: yeah .
PhD A: so . So , yeah , probably {disfmarker} I i it {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor B: So in that case , it might not make much difference at all .
PhD C: Seems like you 'd wanna do it on the FFT bins .
Professor B: Maybe . I mean , certainly it 'd be better .
PhD C: I I mean , if you were gonna {disfmarker} uh , for {disfmarker} for this purpose , that is .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah . OK .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor B: What else ?
PhD A: Uh . {vocalsound} Yeah , that 's all . So we 'll perhaps {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} try to convince OGI people to use the new {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the new filters and {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor B: OK . Uh , has {disfmarker} has anything happened yet on this business of having some sort of standard , uh , source ,
PhD A: Uh , not yet
Professor B: or {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: but I wi I will {vocalsound} call them and {disfmarker}
Professor B: OK .
PhD A: now they are {disfmarker} I think they have more time because they have this {disfmarker} well , Eurospeech deadline is {vocalsound} over
PhD C: When is the next , um , Aurora {pause} deadline ?
PhD A: and {disfmarker} It 's , um , in June . Yeah .
PhD C: June .
Professor B: Early June , late June , middle June ?
PhD A: I don't know w
Professor B: Hmm .
Grad E: Hmm .
Professor B: OK . Um , and {pause} he 's been doing all the talking but {disfmarker} but {vocalsound} these {disfmarker} {vocalsound} he 's {disfmarker} he 's , uh {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor B: This is {disfmarker} this by the way a bad thing . We 're trying to get , um , m more female voices in this record as well . So . Make sur make sure Carmen {vocalsound} talks as well . Uh , but has he pretty much been talking about what you 're doing also , and {disfmarker} ?
PhD F: Oh , I {disfmarker} I am doing this .
Professor B: Yes .
PhD F: Yeah , yeah . I don't know . I 'm sorry , but I think that for the recognizer for the meeting recorder that it 's better that I don't speak .
Professor B: Yeah , well .
PhD F: Because {disfmarker}
Professor B: You know , uh , we 'll get {disfmarker} we 'll get to , uh , Spanish voices sometime , and {vocalsound} we do {disfmarker} we want to recognize , {vocalsound} uh , you too .
PhD F: After the {disfmarker} after , uh , the result for the TI - digits {vocalsound} on the meeting record there will be foreigns people .
PhD A: Yeah , but {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh , no .
PhD C: Y
Professor B: We like {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} w we are {disfmarker} we 're in the , uh , Bourlard - Hermansky - Morgan , uh , frame of mind . Yeah , we like high error rates . It 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: That way there 's lots of work to do . So it 's {disfmarker} Uh , anything to talk about ?
Grad D: N um , not not not much is new . So when I talked about what I 'm planning to do last time , {vocalsound} I said I was , um , going to use Avendano 's method of , um , {vocalsound} using a transformation , um , {vocalsound} to map from long analysis frames which are used for removing reverberation to short analysis frames for feature calculation . He has a trick for doing that {pause} involving viewing the DFT as a matrix . Um , but , uh , um , I decided {vocalsound} not to do that after all because I {disfmarker} I realized to use it I 'd need to have these short analysis frames get plugged directly into the feature computation somehow
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: and right now I think our feature computation is set to up to , um , {vocalsound} take , um , audio as input , in general . So I decided that I {disfmarker} I 'll do the reverberation removal on the long analysis windows and then just re - synthesize audio and then send that .
Professor B: This is in order to use the SRI system or something . Right ?
Grad D: Um , or {disfmarker} or even if I 'm using our system , I was thinking it might be easier to just re - synthesize the audio ,
Professor B: Yeah ?
Grad D: because then I could just feacalc as is and I wouldn't have to change the code .
Professor B: Oh , OK . Yeah . I mean , it 's {disfmarker} um , certainly in a short {disfmarker} short - term this just sounds easier .
Grad D: Uh - huh .
Professor B: Yeah . I mean , longer - term if it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if it turns out to be useful , one {disfmarker} one might want to do something else ,
Grad D: Right . That 's true .
Professor B: but {disfmarker} Uh , uh , I mean , in {disfmarker} in other words , you {disfmarker} you may be putting other kinds of errors in {pause} from the re - synthesis process .
Grad D: But {disfmarker} e u From the re - synthesis ? Um ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad D: O - OK . I don't know anything about re - synthesis . Uh , how likely do you think that is ?
Professor B: Uh , it depends what you {disfmarker} what you do . I mean , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's , uh , um {disfmarker} Don't know . But anyway it sounds like a reasonable way to go for a {disfmarker} for an initial thing , and we can look at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} at exactly what you end up doing and {disfmarker} and then figure out if there 's some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} something that could be {disfmarker} be hurt by the end part of the process .
Grad D: OK .
Professor B: OK . So that 's {disfmarker} That was it , huh ?
Grad D: That {disfmarker} Yeah , e That 's it , that 's it .
Professor B: OK . OK .
Grad D: Uh - huh .
Professor B: Um , anything to {pause} add ?
Grad E: Um . Well , I 've been continuing reading . I went off on a little tangent this past week , um , looking at , uh , {vocalsound} uh , modulation s spectrum stuff , um , and {disfmarker} and learning a bit about what {disfmarker} what , um {disfmarker} what it is , and , uh , the importance of it in speech recognition . And I found some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} some , uh , neat papers , {vocalsound} um , historical papers from , {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} Kanedera , Hermansky , and Arai .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: And they {disfmarker} they did a lot of experiments where th where , {vocalsound} um , they take speech {vocalsound} and , um , e they modify {vocalsound} the , uh {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they measure the relative importance of having different , um , portions of the modulation spectrum intact .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: And they find that the {disfmarker} the spectrum between one and sixteen hertz in the modulation {vocalsound} is , uh {disfmarker} is im important for speech recognition .
Professor B: Sure . I mean , this sort of goes back to earlier stuff by Drullman .
Grad E: Um .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} and , uh , the {disfmarker} the MSG features were sort of built up {vocalsound} with this notion {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah . Right .
Professor B: But , I guess , I thought you had brought this up in the context of , um , targets somehow .
Grad E: Right .
Professor B: But i m
Grad E: Um {disfmarker}
Professor B: i it 's not {disfmarker} I mean , they 're sort of not in the same kind of category as , say , a phonetic target or a syllabic target
Grad E: Mmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: or a {disfmarker}
Grad E: Um , I was thinking more like using them as {disfmarker} as the inputs to {disfmarker} to the detectors .
Professor B: or a feature or something . Oh , I see . Well , that 's sort of what MSG does .
Grad E: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor B: Right ? So it 's {disfmarker}
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker}
Grad E: S
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor B: Anyway , we 'll talk more about it later .
Grad E: OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: We can talk more about it later .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor B: So maybe , {vocalsound} le
PhD C: Should we do digits ?
Professor B: let 's do digits . Let you {disfmarker} you start .
Grad D: Oh , OK .
Grad E: L fifty .
PhD A: Right .
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Lynne Neagle AM: Good afternoon. Can I welcome Members to the virtual meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee this afternoon? In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I've determined that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting, in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34.21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, which was published last Thursday. This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, with all participants joining via video-conference. A record of proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation related to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Can I remind everyone that the microphones will be controlled centrally, so there's no need to turn them on and off individually? We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David AM, and there is no substitution. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay, thank you. Can I just note for the record that if for any reason I drop out of the meeting, the committee has agreed that Dawn Bowden AM will temporarily chair while I try to rejoin? Moving on, then, to item 2 this afternoon, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government in relation to the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on health and social services as they relate to children and young people in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Vaughan Gething AM, the Minister for Health and Social Services; Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Albert Heaney, deputy director general of the health and social services group; Nicola Edwards, deputy director, childcare, play and early years; Jean White, chief nursing officer; and Tracey Breheny, who is deputy director of mental health, substance misuse and vulnerable groups. Thank you all very much for your attendance today—we appreciate your time. We've got lots of questions that we'd like to cover, which we'll go straight into, with questions from Siân Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good afternoon. How much do we understand about how this virus impacts children and young people, and their role in transmitting the virus? And how important is it that this is considered in the Welsh Government's exit strategy, especially in the context of reopening schools?
Vaughan Gething AM: Okay. I think it's fair to say that our understanding is developing across all age ranges about the virus and its impact. It's still the case that children and young people are less likely to be affected significantly by COVID-19 than people with a range of healthcare conditions, and in particular the age grade that we've seen, and that's underpinned the advice we've given to the whole population about self-isolation by people in age categories, as well as the extremely vulnerable group we advise to shield. We still don't understand everything about the role that children have to play in the transmitting of the virus, and this is one of the difficulties we face. Because in cold and flu, children transmit the virus and they're also susceptible, in particular to the flu, as well; that's why we have a childhood immunisation programme for the flu as well. We do know that there's some developing evidence about what's called a Kawasaki-like syndrome, but that's affecting very small numbers of children. We have one possible case in Wales—a child who's in critical care—but that isn't confirmed. That's still a developing knowledge base. So, the rest of the world is still trying to understand that too. But the generals still apply—that children are less likely to be affected than older people, but can nevertheless still become unwell, and that's, if you like, one of the few positives in this condition. But as I say, we're still learning, so I won't try and present a fully accurate or finalised picture of knowledge in this area.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And in terms—[Inaudible.]
Vaughan Gething AM: Chair. Sorry. Excuse me, Chair. Sorry—with apologies to the Member, my translation stopped after a while, so I heard the first part translated, and then it just fell off. I'm really sorry, but I didn't want to try to answer a different question to the one that may be being asked, and don't think that's fair to the Member or other members of the committee.
Lynne Neagle AM: Can we check that translation is back on, please, and maybe Siân could repeat her question?
Vaughan Gething AM: I can hear it, yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, Siân, would you mind repeating that, please?
Sian Gwenllian AM: Not at all. I was discussing NHS services, including critical care services, and I was asking whether there is sufficient capacity in place to manage any increase. We, of course, hope that there won't be any increase, but should there be an increase, particularly in paediatric cases of coronavirus—let's say such a thing were to happen and this rare syndrome that you mentioned did emerge here in Wales—do we have the capacity in place to deal with these, and with the impact of coronavirus more generally on children?
Vaughan Gething AM: At this point in time, the answer is 'yes', and there is always a significant caveat, though, and the 'but' that comes in there is that despite the fact that we've got a plan for surge capacity in paediatric care—. So, when we increased critical care right across the national health service, we of course looked at paediatric care as part of that as well. So, we can flex up our capacity. But the challenge in all of that this is—it's part of my caution and the Government's caution about moves out of lockdown. So, it's much easier to go into lockdown than to come out of it, and I know you heard evidence from the Minister for Education last week about the approach that she wants to take and the principles behind doing that. So, actually, we'll need to think carefully about if we are reopening schools, even on a limited basis, what that then does to the circulation of coronavirus within that group of children as well as within the wider community, and then to try to understand whether the current capacity we have planned for in surge capacity is still going to be enough, because, actually, one of the real success stories of the first stage of the fight with coronavirus is that we haven't had our critical care capacity filled up. It's been extended, and the extension has meant that we haven't been overtopped. If we hadn't done that, we definitely would have been. And we'll need to carry on testing ourselves and seeing what's happening and looking at the evidence and making sure that the plan we already have got that we published for paediatric critical care is still fit for purpose, and again to reconsider if we need to do things differently. But that's part of the difficulty of being a Minister at the moment—you don't know everything that's coming, and on this disease in particular, we do know that we're still learning with each passing day.
Lynne Neagle AM: [Inaudible.]—Siân?
Sian Gwenllian AM: Hello. Yes, those are the questions I had on that section.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Lovely. Thank you very much. Right, we'll move on now then to some question on access to health services from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Minister, just some concern that you will have heard about in terms of parents and carers maybe not taking their children into the healthcare system for other conditions while the coronavirus pandemic is with us. How are you monitoring that situation at the moment and have you had to look at your own commutation strategy in relation to that?
Vaughan Gething AM: We've had to look at some specifics around communication, so challenges about not just different languages, but about how we get messages to people in a very different environment, and it's really challenging. So, for example, our health visitor service has absolutely not stopped. We've had to think about the way it works, and I had this conversation earlier this week with the chief nurse. But the bigger challenge are parents refusing to engage with the service. I understand people's fear and anxiety, but that then means that their family, and in particular their child, isn't getting the sort of proactive care that we would want them to have. So, there's a real concern both at the professional leadership end and for the chief nurse and for Ministers as well about how we can get through. That's actually about rebuilding people's confidence in the service, and that isn't straightforward because there's a broader concern about coronavirus still circulating. But I think for us it's really important to reiterate that we have thought again about how to provide the service. We've thought about how to protect staff and families and the very clear message to parents is to please make sure that when health and care professionals are calling to help and support your family, please discuss your concerns with them. We're doing even more remotely, via telephone and online as well. There are times you need to be physically in the same place, for example on routine vaccinations, because we certainly haven't stopped that programme either, and I really wouldn't want to see that one of the unintended consequences of what we've done is that if parents don't engage with that service, we could potentially see a rise in other diseases. We're all, I think—not just you in your constituency, but others who are on this call and others as well—seeing an occasional reappearance of measles, and that's because people didn't engage with the vaccination programme. I don't want, either myself or a different health Minister in the future, to be sat here talking about how in years to come the failure to engage in a vaccination programme has led to clearly avoidable but significant harm to children and young people and the communities they live in.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Jean, you wanted to come in.
Vaughan Gething AM: You need to unmute yourself. Oh, no—
Professor Jean White: Thank you. I just want to add to what the Minister said. So, I approached the immunisation lead in Public Health Wales to see exactly what has been happening recently and they said at the very beginning of the outbreak parents were very reluctant about coming forward for their routine immunisations, but recently, through lots of energy from the immunisation clinics and the leads within it reaching out to families, that trend seems to have turned and there's now a much better attendance. One of the most important things we can do to protect our children is to make sure they have their vaccinations. So, yes, there was a bit of a downturn, but it does seem to be improving at the moment. Thank you.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, thank you. And that answered my second question, Chair, so I'm happy to leave it there. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you very much. We're going to go on now to some questions about mental health from Siân Gwenllian. Siân.
Sian Gwenllian AM: It's a cause of great concern to us all, of course, in terms of the impact of this crisis on mental health and well-being among our children and young people. So, what assessment has the Government undertaken of the impact on these aspects in young people and what work is being done to understand the impact of the pandemic? What longer term measures will be put in place and what support services will be put in place?
Vaughan Gething AM: Again, I think it's helpful that you've already heard from the education Minister last week, because I think the first of her key principles for returning to school is the impact on the emotional health and well-being of children. So, children's mental health was a central concern and remains so for both myself and the education Minister. Part of the honest challenge, again, is that we don't fully understand the impact on the mental health and well-being of children but we do expect there will have been an impact. So, we're working together with both health boards and our own knowledge and analytical services across the Government to both try to further understand what that is and the difference. Until we have more contact with families, we may not fully understand that, and that's a real point of concern for me. In all of the unknowns within this, the impact on mental health and well-being is absolutely one of them, because we're looking at how we then develop not just a recovery plan for the economy but a recovery plan around mental health, how we support people, and that will have to be informed by the understanding of what's happening when we get more engagement with families about the level of need, and then how we need to think about that. Obviously, it's a key factor for their return to school, but, actually, for the life children and young people lead outside the school environment, and that will be difficult because we're going to phase out of lockdown—it's not going to be a one-hit measure. That absolutely isn't going to happen. We're going to be looking at, at each point, what difference has been made, what more we can do. And, again, there are the efforts we're making to make sure that our online support services and our telephone support services—that we keep on reminding people that they're there and are available, and we want people to make use of them, because I know, as this committee said, we'd much rather be able to support people and intervene earlier rather than wait until there's a much bigger problem in a period of months in the future.
Sian Gwenllian AM: So, in reality, there's been no assessment undertaken because it's difficult to do that. So, the full picture in terms of the outcomes of the crisis—you don't know what they are at the moment as things stand.
Vaughan Gething AM: We can't know, because we don't have that level of contact. There is a development—. I wouldn't say that no work's being done, but I couldn't tell you honestly that that work is finalised and we have a definitive understanding of the picture. If I tried to say that, then I'm sure you'd ask me, 'How on earth can you say that? If you're not having regular contact with people, you can't possibly understand the picture.' And it's much better to say, 'We don't understand the full picture. We know there'll have been an impact. We're working alongside health boards and others, but we'll know more as we carry on having more contact with families.' I'll look at a variety of different areas, again, both to reform the recovery plan, but also then to understand what we need to do at various points in the future, and the picture that we're seeing isn't straightforward and we need to make sure that we don't try to pretend to ourselves or to the public that there is a one-off measure that will allow us to be successful in all the areas that we'd want to be.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But can you give the committee an assurance today that this area of mental health and well-being is going to be a priority for you as health Minister?
Vaughan Gething AM: Of course. Not just on the work we've done in the past; not just because it's one of the key principles for the education Minister about the reopening of schools, but it is a real worry list for me about how we understand the impact on the mental health and well-being of children and young people, and to move forwards, that we don't end up with an entire generation of children and young people who grow up with a range of damage because we haven't thought about what that will look like. So, the mental health recovery plan will of course be of very real importance to me. In amongst all the other priorities I have, I'm certainly not going to allow the mental health and well-being of children and young people to be forgotten.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And how does the current capacity in terms of child and adolescent mental health services compare to service capacity prior to the coronavirus outbreak in Wales? Have you had to shift some resources over from CAMHS, for example, in order to deal with more general aspects of coronavirus?
Vaughan Gething AM: No, we've actually got—. Maybe perhaps it might be helpful, Chair, if Tracey Breheny could say something about the way that we're monitoring the impact we have, in terms of we've got a reporting tool, but also weekly contact with leads in CAMHS services.
Lynne Neagle AM: Tracey.
Tracey Breheny: Of course. Thanks, Minister. Yes, on that question, we moved pretty quickly at the beginning of the pandemic phase to put in place, as the Minister said, a weekly monitoring tool of all local health boards, so through that tool, we look at that every week in terms of collecting information. Whilst national reporting's been stood down, we are picking up assurance through that tool on things like staff sickness in CAMHS services, referral numbers and so on, so we do have that tool in place, and at the moment, that's telling us that the system can meet the capacity; has the capacity to meet need.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Have CAMHS staff been shifted over to do other work during this virus outbreak?
Tracey Breheny: There has been some movement, as I'm saying, around health boards, particularly where in the first phase of the epidemic the concentration was on in-patient provision, providing critical care, but my understanding is from the latest tool that we looked at last week, those staff are gradually not just returning to work from self-isolation or whatever, or from different parts of the system.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And then, what about the capacity for CAMHS primary mental health services? Has there been a reduction in that capacity since the beginning of the pandemic in terms of in-patients? Because that's what I'm hearing, that there has been such a reduction, but how are those patients then treated and served?
Tracey Breheny: In terms of in-patient capacity, that is in the system in both the north Wales and in the south Wales unit at the moment. There were some discharges of young people, but we've had the assurance that that was only undertaken where it was clinically safe to do so and where the community support was in place.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And finally in this section from me, given that schools are of course closed and that schools are so very important in terms of signposting young people towards services, how can young people access appropriate services—online services, for example? How are they signposted towards those services at the moment?
Vaughan Gething AM: Well, we've not closed off general practice and, as you know, we've expanded the ability for people to access services in an online manner. We've expanded a range of telephone advice services, so the telephone advice service we already provide, we've made sure that's maintained, and both myself and the deputy Minister have referred to that on a number of occasions. I think the real struggle and the real difficulty is actually how you punch through different messages when the broader news agenda is so overwhelmingly focused on headline messages in other areas. That is, again, a worry for me, but the communications we have within the health and care system, people should know where to refer people to and how to provide access to both telephone and online support that continues to be available, and actually, as I say, we've expanded that right across our healthcare system. That's what I’m keen to see continue into the future. Whatever the post-COVID-19 world is, I don't want to miss out on the progress we have made in the online provision of services. Of course, most children and young people expect to be able to access services in an online manner already.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But, of course, there will be some who are missed; they may fall between two stools because they won’t know where to turn.
Vaughan Gething AM: Yes, and that, again, comes back to our challenge of how we help children and young people in their context, with their families, to know where support and advice and guidance is. Many people are defaulting to their general practitioner if they can't find advice somewhere else, so that's why there's the information we're providing through general practice to signpost people, so those pathways haven’t been closed off. It's about making sure that people have alternative means that they’re prepared to use at this point in time. If we go back to where we started this evidence session, we were talking about the difficulty of families who don't want to engage in a traditional person-to-person contact or being in the same room as someone else or allowing people into their home. So, there's a real challenge about how we make the service available, but then encourage people to take it up, so that we don’t see much greater harm that we have to try and resolve at a later point.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. I've got a supplementary from Suzy Davies, and can I remind Ministers about concise answers, please? Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, thank you. Just as we're speaking about children and young people's mental health, I wonder if you can confirm whether you've seen the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child's reports about what they call the grave physical and psychological effect on children and young people, and whether the operational guidance you've given out is responding to that in any way, or maybe there was something in that that you hadn’t thought of and you can respond to as we go along.
Vaughan Gething AM: I, personally, haven't read that advice, but the Government's already concerned about the direct physical and mental health impact of lockdown restrictions. You don't need to be a parent to recognise that that’s a potential issue for children and young people. But, I'm sure—. I haven't read it, but that's been signposted, so I can check with officials if they have and if that would change the advice and the position that we're already adopting, because we do regularly look at a range of advice from a range of sources, including the UN, the World Health Organization and others.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, and we are going to come onto children's rights. But, as you know, Minister, the prevention of young suicide is a cause that is very close to my heart. Can I ask what assessment the Welsh Government has made of an increase in suicide amongst children and young people during this pandemic and because of this pandemic?
Vaughan Gething AM: Apart from the general concern that I've expressed on mental health generally, we are already investigating, we're having a—. We've commissioned, through the Government, the delivery unit to work with the national advisory group, including Dr Ann John and other people, to review the current, unexpected deaths during the start of the pandemic here in Wales, because we want to try to understand the wider concerns about the potential effects of the restrictions on the mental health and well-being of children and young people, and if that is leading to a spike in suicide or not. So, that's why we've commissioned that review to be carried out with the current numbers of unexpected deaths that we have, so we're able then to provide a report to understand where we are. My understanding is that we should have a report on that review before the end of this month and, obviously, I know the committee’s got an interest, so if it's helpful we can write to you once we've had a chance to receive the report and to look at it.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, please. Thank you. In terms of provision of crisis care, then, how has that been impacted by the pandemic? Are those crisis services available for children and young people who need them at the moment?
Vaughan Gething AM: Yes, they continue to be available. We still have seven-day-a-week crisis care. We've made clear that mental health services, including those for children and young people, are essential services to be provided. They're not services to be scaled down. They were not part of the series of measures that I stopped within the health service on 13 March. We have built up those crisis care services over a period of time, and the last thing we want to see is to see them disappear during this period of time when there are well-understood concerns about emotional and mental health.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Moving on to perinatal mental health, this morning I hosted a round-table with the NSPCC where we heard about lots of good practice that's going on in terms of supporting new mothers and their families in this period, but I wonder if you can tell the committee what you are doing as a Government to make sure that there is consistent perinatal support for all women across Wales in what is a difficult time for any new mother, let alone in a pandemic.
Vaughan Gething AM: We continue, again, to provide our perinatal mental health service. That's not been stopped either. We've also been looking at how that's provided on a phone or online basis where possible, because again the same concerns exist about physical contact with people. So, we're looking to make sure that the progress isn't lost that we've made. We know there is more to go. So, the service may have changed, but it still absolutely exists. And again, part of the challenge in all of this is about the pause or the interruption in work to create the in-patient capacity that I've previously committed to. So, I want to understand what that really means, but again the problem is, at this point in the pandemic, I can't give you an answer about what that means for that in-patient provision. We're still committed to it, but I'm concerned about the time frame—that is partly about the length and the extent. But again, I'm really impressed by the continuing commitment of our staff to deliver this service for women in what is a particularly uncertain time. It's difficult enough in terms of the challenge in terms of perinatal mental health in normal times, about people being prepared to come forward and then receiving the sort of response they'd want, and even more so now.
Lynne Neagle AM: Is the Welsh Government aware that there's apparently been a decrease in the numbers of women being willing to look at mother and baby unit provision, and will you be taking that into account in your planning? Because, obviously, we wouldn't want people to think that was because of a lack of need; it's down to fear and the lockdown.
Vaughan Gething AM: Yes, we're aware there's been a reduction in people wanting to make use of the service—or being prepared to make use of the service is probably a better phrase—because we know that's the same with a range of other areas. There aren't fewer people having strokes than there were at this period of time last year; the reason why the figures are different is the way that people are behaving because of their concerns about coronavirus. So, I certainly wouldn't be using this period of time to plan for the need that exists for a facility that we want to create. So, I'm happy to give that assurance, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. The next questions are from Suzy Davies.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. It's a straightforward one, really. Obviously, we have the detail of the third sector resilience fund and the—there are two funds, aren't there, for third sector organisations? But can you give us some indication of how much of that support is being targeted to children and young people, and perhaps you can specifically mention how much of the £6.3 million for hospices is for children's hospices? I don't mind who answers that one.
Lynne Neagle AM: The Deputy Minister would like to come in, I think.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Certainly, I'm sure the committee is aware, as Suzy has said, of the funds that are available for third sector services. The Deputy Minister and the Chief Whip, of course, announced on 6 April the £24 million Welsh Government third sector COVID-19 response fund, and that of course is more than we would have had as a result of consequentials from the UK Government. They can also benefit from the £400 million economic resilience fund, but I am aware that some groups don't benefit from that and they may not qualify for that. So, we've also got third sector support being delivered by WCVA, such as the voluntary services emergency fund, which supports volunteering, and the third sector resilience fund, supporting organisations to stay afloat. We are working very closely with the third sector on issues such as support for fostering services, care leavers and repurposing funding so that they can support the crises. Voices from Care Cymru has developed a specific offer for care leavers, and the Fostering Network provides extended helplines. We've got lots of examples of third sector partners working with children and young people. Childline bases in Wales remain open and operational, and are still providing information and support. And, actually, about 50 per cent of contact with Childline at the moment is to do with COVID-19. NSPCC has put together a support page for young people about COVID-19. The NSPCC UK helpline have also reported a decrease in calls resulting in a referral to children's social services at the start of the lockdown period, but, since then, the numbers have actually risen. So, there are lots of examples of help for children. Meic, Action for Children, and, of course, Voices From Care Cymru have come up with their own specific package. In terms of the actual percentage that is being spent on children, I can't give you an actual figure for that, but, certainly, there are a whole range of projects that are there helping children. I think the Minister for Health and Social Services will be able to respond to the hospice question.
Vaughan Gething AM: It's about £1.5 million from the £6.3 million that's gone to Tŷ Gobaith and Tŷ Hafan, Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you very much for that. So, it's about 25 per cent. Perhaps if you could ask the Deputy Minister, when she's in a position to do so, to let us have a note. Before we finish on this point, could I ask the Deputy Minister, again, about whether any of the things you've been talking about now is additional money, because, obviously, you mentioned yourself one of these funds is £24 million. Some of the work you mentioned is continuity of existing work. So, again, if you don't have the answer to hand, perhaps you could send us a note in due course about how much extra is going in.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think most of those things I mentioned are things that are already there, and the £24 million is for support and extra help. So, any more information, I can send to you.
Suzy Davies AM: Lovely. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. The next questions, then, are from Dawn Bowden on safeguarding and child protection.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Deputy Minister, because one of the questions I was going to ask was around some of the work that you've been doing with the third sector on safeguarding and child protection, and I think you've covered that. But what I'm particularly keen to find out is how you're monitoring the impact of coronavirus on child protection and safeguarding in the round. I know the health Minister raised this as a concern in Plenary only recently, and it's really how we are monitoring it, what concerns have been identified, and how we're going to start to tackle some of those.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Thank you very much, Dawn, for that question. Obviously, it is difficult to monitor if there's not easy access to the children that we're referring to, and that's why we have been trying to encourage the vulnerable children to go into school or childcare settings. And there's been a lot of encouragement for that happen. The Minister, the director of education and the director of social services sent out a joint letter recently to all the local authorities, asking them to try to encourage the vulnerable children and the families to get the children to go to school. In fact, we've now got 890 vulnerable children attending school settings, and that's the highest number that we've had at all since the opening of the scheme. But it's still only a tiny drop in the ocean. But it's very good, and it is progress that the numbers attending are now going up. But, of course, there are a lot of children who are not attending school and the social services are not necessarily seeing. There has been a drop in safeguarding referrals to social services. Those numbers are now beginning to go up, but there certainly was a significant drop, which is a great deal of concern. One local authority, in fact, reported a drop of 27 per cent in terms of safeguarding referrals compared to this time last year. So, I issued a written statement on 1 May, setting out the work taken forward under our cross-departmental vulnerable children, young people and safeguarding work stream, and encouraging people to report any safeguarding concerns there are. Because, obviously, we are dependent on the public authorities—you know, schools and health services—to report any concerns, and at the moment, obviously, they're not there to report them. So, we have made this public appeal for everyone to look out for each other, and I was very interested in what Siân Gwenllian told me about what was being done in Anglesey in terms of sending out a message via social media to get people to look and listen, and to raise their concerns, because, obviously, safeguarding is the concern of everybody in the community. But I think that we are reassured in terms of our contact with the local authorities that they are, in fact, keeping close touch, as far as they possibly can, with all the children that are vulnerable. For those where it is very critical, face-to-face contact is still taking place, and there are imaginative ways of trying to keep in touch with all the other children and families. So, it is a difficult situation and we are concerned about it, but I think as much as possible is being done.
Lynne Neagle AM: Jean, you wanted to come in on that.
Professor Jean White: Just to add to what the Deputy Minister was saying, the health visiting service has not been stopped or stepped back. It has consolidated some of the ways that it does the Healthy Child Wales Programme, but, for those families that are identified as having particular need or have children that are particularly vulnerable, all the normal contacts have been maintained, so they're not unseen to the normal health visiting service. That covers both Flying Start and general health visiting areas. Thank you.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Jean, for that, and, Deputy Minister, would there be any value at this point in actually revisiting the current Welsh Government definition and guidance around vulnerable children, in terms of who we identify as vulnerable? Because this opens up a whole new group of children that are not necessarily known to services but can still be vulnerable. So,it's just looking at the current guidance that we have. Do you think that needs revisiting at all?
Julie Morgan AM: The definition of vulnerable children and young people includes those with a social worker and with statements of special educational needs, and the most vulnerable of these should be prioritised. But we have now looked at this again, and we've set out an expanded definition, and we intend to publish that this week. This does include discretion for local authorities to have some flexibility and to be able to offer a place for those who may be on the edge of receiving care and support if they are known to be vulnerable by the school or by family support services. Because, obviously, the children that we know about, we know about, but there are those other children who may be on the edge of care—the children that we've been trying very hard, as part of our policies in the Welsh Government, to keep with their families, with a lot of support. Those are the ones that we also want to support. So, we are giving discretion to the local authorities in order to have a degree of flexibility, and that will be published this week.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on now, then, to talk about looked-after children and children on the edge of care, with questions from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair. Can you set out the impact the coronavirus emergency has had on the care system, including edge-of-care services, and where have there been areas of concern?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, local authorities have obviously had to change their working practices in response to the COVID emergency, so a red-amber-green rating risk assessment was adopted by all local authorities at the start of the pandemic to ensure that vulnerable children and families receive the right way of receiving services and the frequency of contact from the services. This is being dealt with on a case-by-case basis, so every case that is known is being RAG rated and services are being linked to that. Also, there is very close contact between Welsh Government officials and the local authorities. There are weekly meetings between officials and the heads of the children's services. I can't speak too highly, really, about the amount of support and mutual work that has been going on. We've been assured that there have been no significant increases in the numbers of looked-after children, and the number of placement breaks are minimal. The other interesting good point is the children services workforce remains at 90 per cent plus, and, obviously, that is a great testimony to the dedication of the workforce. So, there's very close contact. The children are all being monitored individually, and I think in the circumstances we're all doing what we possibly can. I know that Albert Heaney is able, probably, to respond in more detail to the contacts, if you'd like to have that.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think we'll move on to the next section. Can I remind everyone again: sharp focused questions and concise answers? Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thanks. How is Welsh Government ensuring that vulnerable children have access to the necessary technology to maintain contact with their social workers and other support workers and networks?
Julie Morgan AM: It is normal practice to ensure that children and families do have appropriate access to technology to keep in touch with social workers, so that is part of our normal practice. We're very keen as a Welsh Government that no children are left behind in their education during this period. So, last month, as you will know, the Minister for Education announced £3 million of funding to help digitally excluded learners so that they've got access to the internet, so that they can fully participate in online learning. So, we do normally ensure that they've got digital contact for social workers.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Can you set out the picture regarding children's residential care? What are the challenges these care settings are facing, and have any children's homes closed?
Julie Morgan AM: Residential children's homes are not really reporting any particularly difficult issues, and certainly they have been able to resolve any issues that have happened. So, I'm very pleased to report that. We obviously expect all children in residential care to be supported, and to keep contact with their families and with their siblings, and that is going on, although it may be by technology rather than face to face. We know that some young people have found the social distancing a challenge, and I think it’s easy for us to understand that they have found that quite difficult. So, there have been a few issues related to that, but, where that has happened, local authorities have been able to resolve that on a case-by-case basis, and really there are not any major issues. In terms of residential care, Hillside is functioning well—no reporting issues. The staffing levels are normal. There are fewer children and young people there, so, in fact, there's been an opportunity to give a great deal of attention to the children, and I think we've had very good reports about how that has happened. So, I am absolutely reassured by our officials here that everything is as well as it could be. I also meet with the children's commissioner once a week, who is an independent source, and she said when I met her last week, 'Well, as far as we know, it's all good news'. So, I don't think we have any concerns at the moment about the residential care.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Moving on to foster care, how is Welsh Government working with local authorities to meet the challenges set out by the Association of Fostering and Adoption Cymru and its fostering guidelines?
Julie Morgan AM: We have worked with the fostering organisations. We have had close communications with them, and we've supported AFA Cymru to develop guidance for foster carers, and that guidance has been very strongly welcomed across the sector. We're working with the third sector. I think I mentioned before specific issues such as support for fostering services and, of course, care leavers. The Fostering Network has extended its helpline hours, and, of course, Voices from Care—I mentioned them before—have developed this particular offer of support for care leavers. I've been reassured, as well, from Voices from Care that the young people appear to be more stable now—that they have contact with. But that's online help for them. So, we have had quite a lot of contact with the fostering services.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, the final point on that, then: the Fostering Network and others, as you know, have called for foster parents who can temporarily no longer foster due to the current virus emergency to be paid a retainer, with all foster carers receiving extra financial support for additional expenses. What is your position on this, please?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, we haven't had any specific representations from local authorities asking for support for foster carers, but some local authorities have paid retainers and some people, I believe, have increased the amount of money that they are paying. They've also given support for various activities and things—have helped sometimes, I think, with broadband access and that sort of issue. And, obviously, foster carers who do require additional support should be approaching their local authorities or the independent fostering agency.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. Albert, I just wanted to check there wasn't anything you wanted to add, please.
Albert Heaney: Thank you very much, Chair. I think the only thing to add was relating to monitoring. The Minister has indicated that we are speaking weekly with heads of children's services, and we do now have a data collection that's been implemented to capture the critical data in relation to the children's services. So, that will assist us in our monitoring arrangements going forward. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you very much. And the next questions, then, are from Suzy Davies.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to have a quick answer from probably the Minister, I think, about the primary legislation and the regulations that followed, about which children's rights impact assessments have been done. Have any been done, and can they be shared with the committee if they have? Sorry, Deputy Minister—my mistake.
Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's been a very difficult time, as you appreciate, in terms of having to make legislation very quickly, and it hasn't been possible to do the impact assessments that we would normally do. However, I am very pleased to say that we're actually launching a survey of children. We're going to be launching it next week. And this is to try to get from children their views of what's happened, what we've been doing, and their views on the whole COVID-19 situation. So, we're doing this in conjunction with the children's commissioner and with Young Wales and with the Youth Parliament. So, this is an online survey that we hope will be going out to thousands of children, and we will get their response in terms of what are the important issues that have arisen for them, what they feel about what's happened during this period, what they feel about the way that we've dealt with the schools, the way that they've had to cope in not going school and being at home for so long. And so we're trying to get feedback from young people. So, I'm very pleased that we're doing that, but, in terms of an impact assessment, it has been very difficult, as I'm sure you can imagine, to be able to do those at these times. I think that Albert wants to come in on that.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, because I'll pursue that in a sec.
Lynne Neagle AM: Albert.
Albert Heaney: Thank you. Thank you, Chair, and I think Nicola indicated before me, so apologies, Nicola. Just to say for the committee, really importantly, that we haven't introduced any easements in relation to children's services legislation. I think that's really quite crucial. So, from a Welsh context, the standards that are in place do remain, so therefore there wouldn't have been a necessity for us to do a children's rights impact assessment in relation to the primary legislation. I think that's particularly a strong point to us in Wales, both in terms of safeguarding arrangements, but also ensuring that children's rights are protected at a crucial time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Nicola.
Nicola Edwards: Thanks. In terms of childcare and education, we're obviously looking at the provisions under the coronavirus Act to allow us to maybe ease some of the statutory requirements, and we are going to be undertaking a full suite of impact assessments on those. Obviously, the coronavirus Act itself was UK Government legislation and they ran their own impact assessments, but, in terms of how we implement it in the childcare and education space—and I think Albert was just saying the same thing—we definitely will be looking at those impacts in terms of going forward.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, just to come back on that then, are you saying to me that, as a result of the various coronavirus regulations that we've had, no assessments for children's needs have been postponed, cancelled or done very quickly online rather than in person?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, I think, as Albert said, that there was no relaxation of regulation for children's social care. You know, that's—there haven't been any in Wales.
Suzy Davies AM: No, but that's what—. There's no relaxation, but what's happening in practice? We're down on staff across all our councils and in our third sectors—who's doing the children's needs assessments, particularly for young carers?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, I—. Albert, can you answer that?
Albert Heaney: I think the first thing to say to the committee is that, going back, we took a very strong line at the beginning that we weren't going to introduce easements in requirements to children's social services. Of course, through the way that practitioners and social work practitioners have to operate, they are having to operate through a different time. So, assessments are still taking place for child protection and safeguarding concerns; assessments are still taking place, and especially in relation to—as you mentioned—young carers, to support their needs. So, arrangements—[Inaudible.] But they're having to be slightly differently done—so, some of the technology, and keeping in contact and keeping those visits. So, we've used, for example, the St David's Day fund to make sure that care leavers are well supported in terms of having contact and are accessible and able to engage as well. So, we're having to be a little bit more—and social services departments are having to be a little bit more—innovative in the use of technology in the way that they've engaged as well. But personal visits are taking place, and visits especially, as the Minister mentioned earlier on—they actually individually assess each case to determine the frequency of visits, to make sure that those contacts are maintained with children at a critical time.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. I don't want to take this much further, but personal visits and social distancing could be slightly problematic. I just want to finish with this one question, if I may. We've had recommendations from the Carers Trust, or Carers Trust Wales. Have they been accepted by Government, and is it those that are driving the agenda of the task and finish group that you announced the other day, Deputy Minister?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, those will certainly be considered by the task and finish group. I've had a letter from the Carers Trust about those issues, and we are setting up this group, as you know, and we will be looking at those issues in the group.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. Any steal on when that might report?
Julie Morgan AM: I don't have that at the moment.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Maybe we could have a note on that, Deputy Minister. Can I just say, we are running short of time? We did start late, so, if the Ministers are happy, we'll carry on until 2.10 p.m.—3.10 p.m.—if that's okay. And the next questions are from Siân Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: [Inaudible.]
Lynne Neagle AM: Hold on a sec, Siân, we've lost translation again. Can we just see what can be done to get the translation back? Sorry, Siân. Is there anyone who can help with the translation? There you go, Siân. Thank you.
Sian Gwenllian AM: You will know, Deputy Minister—because we have discussed this in private session—my major concerns with regard to the childcare sector, and what kind of childcare sector we will have at the end of this crisis, as families start to return to the workplace. There are still some childcare providers who are falling between the cracks and aren't receiving financial support. Do you agree—are there people who are still not being supported, and why isn't the Welsh Government able to provide that support for everyone in the childcare sector?
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you, Siân, for that question. And I know that we have had a discussion about this before. Basically, we are aware that there are some sectors in the childcare sector that do fall through some of the loops. We have guaranteed that we will pay the money for the childcare offer for three months. So, that is guaranteed to them, and they are able to take advantage of the Government's job retainer scheme, but that does mean that there is a problem, as I think we've discussed before, of the double funding issue, and that is something that we have been trying to resolve and there have been discussions with the Treasury in Whitehall about ways forward on this. I'm going to ask Nicola to come in in a minute, because she's much more up to date with the discussions about that, but, so far, I don't think very much progress has been made on that. But we are looking to see if there are any other ways that we can get help to the childcare sector, and I'm actually following this meeting with a meeting with the Deputy Minister for equality and chief whip, who is responsible for the voluntary sector, because obviously many of the groups that we're talking about would come under the voluntary sector, because they have voluntary committees, but they fall between many stools, because they rent premises rather than own premises and they don't have high turnovers that would qualify them for some of these grants. So, perhaps I could ask Nicola to come in to expand on that.
Nicola Edwards: Absolutely.
Lynne Neagle AM: Briefly, if possible.
Nicola Edwards: I'll try and be brief, because I'm conscious of time. So, some childcare settings can access funding under the small business rate relief scheme, but certainly not all of them; some of them can access funding under the economic resilience fund, and, as the Deputy Minister said, we're following up for some of them to be able to access funding under the third sector resilience funding. All of the childcare settings can apply for the UK Government's coronavirus job retention scheme, but there are some complications around that in that it's a salary-based scheme and you can't claim two types of public funding for the same individual member of staff. So, if you were using funding under the childcare offer to pay for a particular member of staff's salary, you can't access CJRS and furlough that individual with Government money as well, and that has led to some confusion and complication about how that balances, which we're trying to work through with the sector and with local authorities around the rules and regulations that the Treasury and HMRC have put in place around that. Alongside that, there's a whole range of different loans and services that are available. Some of those are less attractive to some childcare settings, but they are still available and Business Wales is offering support and advice for settings on how they can help weather this storm and support their workers as best they can. We're also having some conversations now with our economy colleagues and with Business Wales about what happens next, the recovery and the return of the sector, and we've just come out of a meeting with the childcare sector around the support they think they would need to have in place to be able to return from this as well. So, it's a topic that's very much live at the moment.
Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm sure you can share my concerns and the concerns of Cwlwm, which represents the childcare sector and the nursery school sector, that there are a number of providers that aren't receiving support at all and are likely to collapse as a result of this. What I can't understand is why you, in collaboration with the Minister for the economy, Ken Skates, can't devise a specific grant package for the providers that aren't currently receiving support, or we'll be facing a situation that is very difficult when people are seeking childcare for their children and those settings won't be available to them. Why isn't it possible to have a bespoke scheme for those that are falling between the cracks in this sector?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, that is what we're looking to see—if we can get a bespoke scheme. I absolutely agree with you: it is absolutely vital that we keep this sector going, because it is a fragile sector in any case, and I think about 50 per cent of the childcare settings have temporarily closed down and the reason they've given for closing down is because they haven't had enough children to make it viable to keep their settings going. So, it is a very worrying situation. They are heavily reliant on the fees that parents pay and, of course, with the social distancing and the lockdown, this has meant that we've had to discourage children from attending. So, that means the number of children they've had has been much reduced and it hasn't been viable for them to keep going, although obviously it's great that about half have stayed open so we have somewhere for the children of the critical workers and the vulnerable children to go. But, I absolutely agree with what you're saying, Siân, and we are looking for a solution, because we know it's vital not only for the children and their parents, but for the economy as well, that we do have that sector there, surviving after this is all over. So, I can assure you, we're working very hard, and I think Nicola's working day and night to try to achieve this.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And just finally from me, I'm very pleased that you are working on this, and I very much hope that we will see a support package that will reach everyone in the sector, because it's been weeks now since all of this started, and if there's still no light at the end of the tunnel for some of them, then that needs to be dealt with. But just to conclude, how effective has the provision been in general over this period in terms of providing support for key workers?
Julie Morgan AM: I think it's been crucial, because how would the majority of the key workers have been able to get to work and do all the wonderful things that they've been doing if it hadn't been for childcare for those who need it? And we were very pleased to introduce the coronavirus childcare assistance scheme, which means that critical workers and families with vulnerable children are able to have free access to childcare aged 0 to 5, and I believe that we are the only country in the UK that is providing that free service to the vulnerable children, and so—. I mean, that scheme has only really taken off now since Easter, so we don't have any particular statistics.
Nicola Edwards: I do have some early numbers, if you'd like me to announce them?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, that would be very good.
Lynne Neagle AM: Very briefly.
Nicola Edwards: Yes. In terms of the provision in schools, we're looking at around 4,000 children a day in schools at the moment. In terms of the children accessing the coronavirus childcare assistance scheme, it has only been two weeks up and running really, so the numbers are quite low, but there were nearly 1,500 children accessing that childcare last week, and of those, just over 100 would fall within the definition of vulnerable children. So, it is picking up there; it was 900 children the week before that, so we are seeing some traction now that parents are aware that that support is there.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. And, can I just ask, in terms of the other vulnerable children, what assurance can you give that all the vulnerable children who need to keep in contact with social workers and other key workers are being provided with the necessary technology to do that? Is that happening in a uniform way?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, that is the intention—that everybody should have the opportunity to have the necessary technology, and certainly, that is what is intended.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Suzy, very, very briefly, one question on the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, please.
Suzy Davies AM: Just generally, have you had any feedback on the effects on the family courts and the execution of the—well, the child arrangement orders, the various versions of that?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. In terms of the family courts, as you probably know, a lot of the hearings are going on virtually, but the hearings that are more complex are being postponed to be heard at a later date. So, that's one of the issues, really—that we may expect a lot of demand on the court service after this period has finished. And obviously, the president of the family division has issued guidance on compliance with family court child arrangement orders, which were his guidance, and obviously, this is directed at separated families subject to the family court, and that offers general advice to parents, recognising that the circumstances for each parent and each family will be different. And the Welsh Government has also provided guidance about staying at home and away from others. But of course, where parents have joint parental responsibility, as you know, the Government has said that children under 18 can be moved between the two households. With the other children, it's on a case-by-case basis, really, what actually happens. I have met with CAFCASS to see how their operations are going, and all the CAFCASS officials are not attending any courts at all; they're sending in any of their views virtually, but it appeared to be that there weren't any major issues arising.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, and we have definitely now come to the end of our time. So, can I thank the Ministers and officials for attending? We do recognise what an immensely pressurised time this is for Welsh Government, and we are very appreciative of having your time this afternoon, so thank you both to Ministers and officials. As usual, you will receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Diolch yn fawr.
Vaughan Gething AM: Diolch yn fawr, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you very much. This is, of course, our last formal business of the National Assembly for Wales before we become the Senedd tomorrow, and it seems fitting that the National Assembly's last formal proceedings are focused on children and young people, and I'm sure that we would all agree that it is vital that they continue to be at the centre of the work of our Parliament going forward. We are now going to proceed in private.
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doc_49
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Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Hello . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Good afternoon . Sorry I'm a little late .
Project Manager: No problem .
Marketing: Got stuck in the traffic .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's possible on uh this time of day . Starts at three o'clock . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh , let me see . Our fourth and last meeting . There he is . Yes . Okay this our last meeting . In this meeting we will discuss our final design . And we will do some evaluation about the , not only the product , but also the project . And then we're going to close the project today as well . So after this you will be uh free to go and uh spend all your money . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And this uh design , detailed design meeting uh we will discuss uh the look-and-feel of the design , the usability interface design , and we will do the product evaluation . Um , in order to do that we have this agenda . We'll have the prototype presentation first . Then we will set up some evaluation cri um criteria . {vocalsound} Then we will look at the finance . Uh we will have to see if everything we wanna do is also possible within our budget . Because everything costs money , and the more functions you wanna have the more money it will cost . So we have to see if it fits within the twelve and a half Euro per remote . But we will see that later . Then we will do the project uh evaluation , and the closing after that .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We've got forty minutes . So we will be finished at half past three . But first um we will do the {disfmarker} this is prototype presentation . So , if some yeah if somebody wants step forward .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Well this is what me and Richard came up with . The default spot for the on-off button . The mute button just below that . Then there's the volume and channel selectors . Simple plus-minus button . Uh we thought of a help button . If you hold it and you press another button , uh the help goes to the L_C_D_ screen . Then there's the zero to {disfmarker} one to zero buttons . A button for teletext . A button for the subtitles . And the company logo . So it's rather simple prototype . And uh we'll have to see from testing uh how the users take it .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Um , {vocalsound} is this the moment where we ask or can ask questions about the functionality ?
User Interface: So {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Sure uh just pop in at any time .
Marketing: Um , when you're in teletext there usually are buttons where you just you just press it and you g go to the next teletext page .
User Interface: Uh , that's just uh the normal uh as th as the normal uh remote controls uh {disfmarker} So um {disfmarker} You put it uh {disfmarker} you um came in uh page uh one hundred . Now you can use the normal uh one to zero buttons .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And you {disfmarker} But you can also uh use the um button th for uh changing the the channel . S so uh the shifting uh button . Uh for uh yeah shif shifting up in uh on t on t uh teletext , and shifting uh down . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . Okay . Um {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Uh but um I thought in a few meetings earlier we uh uh tried to keep it uh simple . Uh just a few buttons and large buttons .
User Interface: Oh yeah ?
Project Manager: But uh I think these are altogether quite a quite a few buttons . So I'm wondering if we if we neely {disfmarker} really need all of those buttons .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I think if you look at most controls , they've got more buttons than this .
Project Manager: That's right .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And well the on-off button , it's it's a necessity .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You can't drop that one . The volume and channel buttons , you need you obviously need those those .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The mute button could be replaced uh by pressing the volume-down button twice . So we could cancel that one . I think the help button really is necessary
User Interface: Yeah yeah .
Industrial Designer: because there's no other way to know when someone wants to know what a button does .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Uh , or you can build in uh when you press uh one button uh uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Long time . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: If you put {disfmarker}
User Interface: But m Yeah . We disc discuss that already . But uh we think uh old people uh don't know that uh option . So uh they just put in uh put {vocalsound} press uh the button and uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Well , {vocalsound} you can't leave out the number buttons I guess .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: And uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh teletext and subtitles are yeah necessary .
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So it's rather basic already .
Marketing: Yeah . Think so . That's what I pointed out earlier . If you just make a control for just the T_V_ there's just not much to gain here .
Project Manager: Yep .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . So we had somebody about th interfa Something about the design of the buttons there ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , they're {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just n normal plain buttons .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: It's rather hard to draw on the white-board .
User Interface: it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But they're supposed to be equal sized , round , with a with a little logo on it for the for the volume , the the triangle and stuff .
Project Manager: Yeah . 'Kay .
User Interface: Yeah yeah . Just to recognise it , so uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Just for recognition .
User Interface: Uh yeah and now we don't need uh LEDs or um {disfmarker} Y uh
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: s some uh remote controls uh do it also ,
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: but um uh because we use the little display we don't uh have to use it . Uh so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay .
Industrial Designer: So and for the materials we've just chosen for rubber buttons . With a a different colour than the case .
User Interface: Nay .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: So they jump out .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And uh that's about it .
Project Manager: That's nice . Then because we only have thirty minutes left , I will move on to the finance part , which is pretty exciting , to see if it's all possible what we wanna do . And I can tell you that we're going to have a pretty hard time producing this for twelve and a half Euros .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: If we see {disfmarker} I don't know if I've filled in correctly , so just correct me if you see uh something wrong . I counted two batteries . But maybe we can also use one . I don't know if it's possible .
Marketing: Since it rechargeable .
Project Manager: It's rechargeable . That's right .
User Interface: Yeah we can u just uh {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . That's two Euros off . {vocalsound}
User Interface: 'Kay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We need the advanced chip . So there's not much to uh {vocalsound} to save there .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Here we have the single curves . Uh we can see that the difference between uncurved and the single curved is one Euro . Um ,
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: I don't know , but I think the single curved is good for design , and also for the display to have a prominent place on the remote control .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think we have to keep that .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Then we have the case material supplements . It's plastic . It's the cheapest one we need . So that's uh not much to save either . But then the biggest costs are the buttons . So maybe we really should try to discard some buttons to uh keep our costs low .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Because you have to {disfmarker} we will have to get the twelve and a half Euros at the end . Um ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: so if we {disfmarker} Let's fir first count the buttons we have now .
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Sixteen , I believe so .
Project Manager: Because I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Sixteen . Nah , that will be even more then . Eighteen Euros . So ,
User Interface: Uh seventeen . Uh with the help button .
Project Manager: seventeen .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , including the help ?
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Damn .
Project Manager: Yeah . Uh seventeen .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think we can uh discard the help and the mute button uh by pressing down volume long , or pressing down a a number long .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: That saves us uh one Euro already . 'Cause then we have got fifteen I think ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Wouldn't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Fifteen buttons .
Marketing: Yeah . No . That wouldn't be an option .
Project Manager: And this is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh , d I assume you'd count the volume and channel thingies for two buttons each , right ?
Project Manager: No those are one , I think .
User Interface: Yeah . Where did uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well , think actually there're two buttons ,
User Interface: Uh , it's just one button .
Marketing: aren't they ?
User Interface: But , um {disfmarker} Yeah . There were uh two uh for one big button . But they are uh more expensive than the small ones . Uh , yeah . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah but th it's not stated in this files .
User Interface: It's just a {gap} .
Project Manager: So maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one , by pressing
Marketing: Well I was thinking , maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button .
Project Manager: That's possibility as well .
Marketing: That would cut the cost .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} And it's good for the design as well . So you can make {disfmarker} Uh let's see . If you make this {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Looks a bit like uh a cross . {vocalsound} Plus . Min .
User Interface: But I don't don't know if if it's cheaper .
Project Manager: Uh s yeah channel .
User Interface: So uh ,
Project Manager: Yeah w
User Interface: we've still got four buttons , but just um {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah th I think they count uh the materials .
User Interface: You got uh not not a butt button itself , but uh on the um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah on the chip there . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . On the chip you've got still uh four uh four buttons .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: That's right . That's right .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But I think because we have the advanced chip
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} we can just count this as one button .
User Interface: Yeah , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} But , I think this really is four buttons anyhow .
Project Manager: But {disfmarker} No but I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe it is , but then it seems to me that it's impossible to get the twelve and a half Euros . Also the L_C_ display , I think it's , I think it's too expensive for the display we use .
Marketing: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Uh that's that's a big cost .
Project Manager: I think they uh try t
Industrial Designer: If we leave out the display we can also save money on the chip .
Project Manager: That's right , but what's the big advantage of our remote then ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Only the docking station , I guess .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Which isn't the {disfmarker} the docking station isn't even in this c s schematic .
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: So it's not even taken into the price .
Project Manager: That's extra . {vocalsound} That's extra . That's right .
Marketing: Maybe we should to a different supplier .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's an option .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Poland . Something . {vocalsound} Polish supplier . Don't you think we can , if we can count this as v as one button , and integrate th uh these buttons in three , then we save a lot of money as well .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We we could save money on it . But would it make the remote more usable for elderly people ?
User Interface: {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah , that's what I'm wondering . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: My mother can't even send send an S_M_S_ message .
Project Manager: Yeah . That's a point .
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Are we gonna buy a um a remote control uh when you can uh use it ?
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: So um {disfmarker} Yeah . We m uh we must um stay below the um below um twelve uh fifty or {disfmarker} Can't uh go um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: Well , since the market research indicated that older people spend their money easier , more easy , maybe it's feasible to just put the price of the remote up a little . Especially since we have those nice features .
User Interface: Nay .
Project Manager: Yeah but uh we have to stick to the twelve and a half Euros . We don't have any more budget to develop it .
User Interface: Is it impossible to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The margin will get too small . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: But it is possible to make one uh for uh twelve fifty .
Project Manager: It is . If you leave out the L_C_ display . And if you use less buttons . Say {disfmarker} Or you can take the single chip .
User Interface: I don't think so .
Marketing: It would be a be a pretty rigid one .
User Interface: S Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But , you can't use uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ten .
Project Manager: There it is . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But then w Good looking .
User Interface: Uh , wi with n Oh , with uh attractive uh o options .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: So uh , you can stay uh below uh twelve fifty . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it's uh difficult as well ,
Marketing: Or b
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Basically becoming a choice between like either a good remote and a higher production cost , or just any other remote control .
Industrial Designer: No remote . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Or we can leave out the ten buttons and take one scroll wheel for the programme numbers . Then w
User Interface: Scroll-wheel's one .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Because then we save ten buttons .
User Interface: No , it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Then we have five and one .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: And and see . If we have this one and we've got the advanced {disfmarker} W uh , we're getting close . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We're getting closer .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: But how does scroll-wheel work here ?
Project Manager: Then you will {disfmarker} Or maybe you can um scroll . If you scroll you will see the numbers on the L_C_D_ display . Until you've got the right number , then you push it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: That would bring up the price of the scroll-wheel also . Integrated scroll-wheel push-button .
Project Manager: Alright . It's gotta scroll and push .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Okay but then you you can push uh some other button as well .
Marketing: But {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You could just not scroll for a half a second .
Project Manager: Yeah . That's right . So if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second , then it g turns to that channel .
Industrial Designer: So you won't need a button .
Marketing: I think that would be like the end of our usability .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But it would definitely crop cost , a lot .
User Interface: D yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And we need the battery . {vocalsound} And the regular chip is not possible ? It has to be advanced ?
Industrial Designer: If you want to use an L_C_D_ screen you you need an advanced chip , yes .
Project Manager: It has to be advanced . Yeah . Okay .
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: And we can save a Euro by a flat design . That's an option we can {disfmarker}
User Interface: Ja ja .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: Then we're almost there .
Industrial Designer: Yeah if you v could just leave out one more button .
Project Manager: Yeah . So if we {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , or we have to uh skip the subtitle uh button .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah but I think that's {disfmarker} That is a big advantage ,
User Interface: So {disfmarker} Yeah {disfmarker}
Project Manager: if we're {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah it's a big advantage .
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: But um , it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Can we use {disfmarker} can't we integrate the teletext and the subtitles in one button ?
User Interface: Uh , yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think so . Yeah .
Project Manager: If you push it three times ?
Marketing: Well , think it's pretty much the teletext subtitles are
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: right now you just push the teletext button , go to page eight eight eight ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: and teletext disappears . But the subtitles stay there .
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} But if you push the teletext button twice {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} What if you have to scroll to page eighty eight ? Eight hundred eighty eight . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think that's the case on most {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's uh {disfmarker} One m uh one b uh , a few buttons .
Project Manager: Ah that's not really that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well , that could be just uh like the scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Okay .
Marketing: But then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people ,
Industrial Designer: No .
Marketing: who don't even know what a scroll-wheel is .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: Holding a remote with {vocalsound} which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: With only five buttons on it . And a scroll-wheel .
Project Manager: I think if you make a good advertisement uh on television and in the in the guide , you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel . If you just make it real simple . Because it saves it saves a lot of money . And we can keep our L_C_D_ screen , which can provide extra information . How to use the scroll wheel . How to use the other bu buttons as subtitles .
Marketing: True . True .
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: And it's good for the innovative design as well . If you would erase these . Mm eraser ? And we put uh {disfmarker} Looks a bit odd maybe . {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's a pretty big scroll wheel .
Project Manager: That is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Something like that .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then , yeah . We've got the scroll-wheel . One , two , three , four , five buttons , if we erase this one . And these are two buttons then .
Industrial Designer: We could make two buttons out of that . And just um {disfmarker} If you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scroll-wheel .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So that would save two buttons . If you do the same for the channel .
Project Manager: Yeah . That's really a good good idea , I think . And it will make the use of the scroll wheel uh more obvious indeed .
Industrial Designer: More obvious .
Project Manager: So we make one for the volume , one for the channel . Plus scroll . That's right .
Industrial Designer: So if we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So we've got one , two , three . Yeah , we can leave the teletext in if we want . That's m that's better .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: So this is five buttons .
Industrial Designer: If we leave out all those buttons , perhaps you can go with the flat flat case . And make it smaller overall .
Project Manager: Y yeah .
Industrial Designer: So if you put the the volume and channel buttons on the same height as the on-off button , the screen right behi under that , than the scroll button
Project Manager: Mm yeah . Uh yeah , and then you can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: you get a a much smaller remote .
Project Manager: That's right .
User Interface: Uh yeah .
Industrial Designer: And it sh
Project Manager: So we can decrease this one to four buttons .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ?
Marketing: Right now we have five .
User Interface: But uh , you can make a f quite a big uh remote remote control for uh just the same price as a small one .
Project Manager: Yeah . That's no problem .
User Interface: Just uh you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved . It uh it's a bit uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah . It's uh it's more the moulds in which they are being made , I think . Single curved is really easy to just fill in .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: And cases come right out of the machine .
User Interface: {gap} .
Project Manager: And single curved you have to have a different uh different machine , than a flat one . I think this is a really easy one . Um , what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design ? Freek , what do you think ?
Marketing: Well , I still think we should go for the single curve design .
User Interface: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: But then again , {gap} all these changes are not really okay with me .
Industrial Designer: Richard's argument was very good . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: But since we just have to .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We have to cut costs . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah I'm ag
Marketing: I'd rather just go to the board and get us to spend {vocalsound} eighteen dollars a a remote .
Project Manager: Ask for more money . Yeah . Yeah . I am agreeing with the usability . Yeah .
Marketing: Or do some market research and see what the options are .
Project Manager: Yeah . But th um I think we can then keep the single curved one . Just to express our L_C_D_ screen a bit more .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So people will use it more , and especially for the help functions ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: it will be good if we have scroll bar , scroll button . It will be necessary to have good help function , as well . So this is scroll . I think it was better to have this price list a bit earlier . {vocalsound} Before we went on to the to the whole design .
Marketing: Yes . Definitely . {vocalsound}
User Interface: The th
Project Manager: But {disfmarker} I'm glad we could make a bit .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: It's pretty different , if you saw the last one than {vocalsound} this one .
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's pretty different .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But this is not really like for the group we were making our remote .
User Interface: No .
Marketing: This will really require a lot of marketing to get this to sell .
Project Manager: Yeah . It will . Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} But um {disfmarker}
Marketing: 'Cause if older people like familiar forms and familiar stuff . This is not familiar for them .
Project Manager: No , but I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: So we're gonna have to do a lotta convincing them .
Project Manager: I think the most {disfmarker}
User Interface: But they know the scroll-buttons from uh old radios . Uh they cal also uh buttons like that for uh changing uh channels .
Project Manager: That's right .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: We can let l
User Interface: So maybe it's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We can stick it out , a bit . Like a old old buttons . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Maybe that's recognisable for them as well . Yeah . That's a good one .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So , I'm afraid we have to move on . And it's uh it's b uh less frightening , I think . If they see this design they think oh , there are only five buttons , and uh {disfmarker} But we will see .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: That's true . Might uh {disfmarker} might be confusing too .
Project Manager: Yeah . That's definitely right .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: They'd be like , what ? Only five buttons ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: But very special , so uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I would buy it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . But you're not sixty . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's right . I would buy it if I was six . {vocalsound} No I don't know . What it costs under twelve and a half Euros ? No ? Uh , yes they are .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No . But we can go on with the project evaluation .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Let's see . I can sit down I think . We still have fifteen minutes left , so we're nice on schedule .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um , the project process .
Marketing: So um , I like set up all these criteria . And evaluation of the thingy . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Evaluation criteria . That's right . That was the the point I forgot . I should {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: There we are . Evaluation criteria . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Thank you . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Go ahead .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We've got five minutes I think for those criteria .
Marketing: Five more minutes ?
Project Manager: No we've got fifteen minutes but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Uh yes . What ?
Marketing: 'Kay so I did some literature study study , and analysis of the requirements we set up earlier .
Project Manager: Uh yeah .
Marketing: Translated it into criteria , which would be these . Um , is the remote fancy ? The shape , look and feel . Innovative ? What new functions are there ? Uh , easy to use ? Uh , learnability is a very important factor here . Uh , is it functional ? Are there not too many functions uh among the functions ? And are the those functions that are there , are they useful ? And the cost . The target group . Is the remote really for the group we're making it for ? And recognability . If our company is {disfmarker} If it is easily recognisable that our company made it ? And {disfmarker} So we're supposed to evaluate it right now .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Let's see . Oh I have to say this was a little hard , because the minutes of our last meeting were not here .
Project Manager: Yeah , that's because my pen failed to upload his data .
User Interface: Mm . Yeah ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I tried to
Marketing: Interesting .
Project Manager: but it's uh it's giving errors by downloading the software .
Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm . 'Kay .
Marketing: Is the design fancy , on a scale of one to seven ?
Project Manager: I think it's fancy .
Industrial Designer: Six .
Project Manager: Yeah . Six .
User Interface: Uh six . Yeah .
Marketing: We all go for six ? Good . Um , is the design innovative ?
Project Manager: Very . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm . Sh
Marketing: I think so , with our L_C_D_ screen , docking station , scroll-buttons .
Project Manager: Subtitles , buttons . Yeah . Seven .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Seven ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So we've got twenty cents for our docking station , huh ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Should be do-able .
Project Manager: Yeah . That's right .
Marketing: Is the design easy to use ?
User Interface: Mm . Not really .
Project Manager: That's a bit dodgy .
Marketing: Well {disfmarker} Would be for us . But {disfmarker}
User Interface: For old people I I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I would say four . Four or five between . Between four or five .
User Interface: W
Industrial Designer: Four or five . Yes .
User Interface: Yeah . Four .
Marketing: I'd go for four , too .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Is it functional ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Is the design functional ? Um , do we have all functions that we want to include ?
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: N Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think we do . Do we have too many functions ?
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: No .
Marketing: I don't think so . It's pretty slim .
Project Manager: Think it's uh seven .
Marketing: Seven . Oh , and do we um take care of the biggest frustrations of the remote control ? Like it getting lost and {disfmarker} R_S_I_ influences ?
User Interface: Mm m
Industrial Designer: Mm , we haven't thought of that one .
Project Manager: It was .
Marketing: Think we do .
Project Manager: I had them worked out . Mm . They are ugly , not very functional , and getting lost .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Are the production costs within the preset limits ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well they are now .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Does the design fit the group of focus ?
User Interface: Mm , th yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think that's a three .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: No I think with our new radio button , I think it's uh I think it's better .
Marketing: I think it doesn't .
User Interface: Yeah . Uh {disfmarker} We have to test it s But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: I don't know .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I still {disfmarker} I think it's too m too fancy . Too too flashy .
Marketing: I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think a radio button is not exactly what older people expect to have a remote control .
User Interface: Uh , yeah , true .
Project Manager: Yeah . I would give it a four .
Marketing: I'm not sure . I think I'd go for two .
User Interface: I go for three . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then we have to do the three . It's the {disfmarker}
Marketing: 'Kay . Is the company company recognisable ?
Project Manager: Yes it is .
User Interface: Yeah yeah .
Marketing: Well , we have the logo there .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And they wanna put fashion in their products . Uh in the slogan of the company . And we have the removable front cases . So , I think it's very recognisable .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: So that will be this . I was also supposed to calculate the score , but thought we would have another private thingy after this .
Project Manager: We've got a calculate it . Mm ?
Industrial Designer: Twendag sieven an twendag .
Marketing: Is this {disfmarker} Like after this , are we done ? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: N We've gonna {disfmarker} We're going to evaluate it .
Marketing: We're gonna go to our other room again . Well , anyhow . These are seven factors times seven is forty something . Two ? No .
Project Manager: {gap} Forty nine .
Marketing: Nine ? Uh , minus one . Minus three , minus four . {vocalsound} Minus four . So that would be minus eight . Forty one out of forty nine .
Project Manager: Forty one . That's {disfmarker} Around eighty percent .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: What is it ?
Marketing: Guess I'll just type that in on the bottom here .
Project Manager: That's eighty four percent . I think that's a pretty nice score .
User Interface: Hmm . Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: Hmm . 'Kay . So that will be the evaluation .
Project Manager: Thank you . So , that brings us to the project evaluation . Yep . Thank you .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Project process . Did we move through the right phases , you think ? {vocalsound} Along the process ?
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah . But it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Think we should have a should have had the finance thingy a lot earlier . In the design phase .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: That's right . So lack of information about prices .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . That's true .
Marketing: Yeah . Definitely .
Project Manager: Okay . Uh {disfmarker} Okay . Satisfaction . Was there room for creativity ?
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Not too much . {vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's because of the finance sheet . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , there w there was enough room , but the finance uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , true . But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The room was {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: And I would've liked to go for the younger users also .
User Interface: {gap} .
Marketing: And just to be able to access internet and get something of your own .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Restrictions . Internet access . 'Kay . Leadership . Was it clear what everybody had to do uh according to their roles and functions ? Yeah ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Teamwork ? Did it work out ? Working together ? Also , you {disfmarker} two of you with the uh last phase ?
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes , was okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Nice .
Industrial Designer: The tasks are very structured , so you can just do step by step and it's very easy .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {gap} tasks . Okay . Were the means sufficient for the tasks uh we had to do ? Or were they too much ?
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Well , the smart-board , the d d drawing is just a pain in the ass , but {disfmarker} The digital the digital pen is very nice .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Smart-board .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: If it wants to download its uh data . {vocalsound}
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes . Yeah .
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Failed download . Smart-board was irritating . {vocalsound} So you rather wanted to have a flip-over ? Or something else ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: A flip-over or a more precise uh digit
User Interface: A flipper's uh easier , so {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Faster as well , I think .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Yeah . Flip-over .
User Interface: But if you want to share uh of uh when you make um a picture like this uh on the presentation , it's easier to uh share it with uh other people . Uh so uh
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: you can sh save it uh and uh put it on the internet , or uh uh in shared f uh folder or uh sh uh shared directory .
Marketing: Yeah ,
User Interface: So {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}
Marketing: I tried to open the file on my laptop ,
User Interface: Yeah ? No ?
Industrial Designer: No . Didn't work .
Marketing: but {vocalsound} not possible .
Project Manager: Uh you need a smart board uh application I think .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: But I think you can {disfmarker}
User Interface: T can uh can you export it uh like a {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Should be possible . Yeah you can export it as image .
Marketing: {gap} no .
Project Manager: Must {disfmarker} Yeah must be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Should've done that then .
Project Manager: So the sharing of the information was uh was okay ?
User Interface: {gap} .
Marketing: Pen is here .
Project Manager: Uh , network .
User Interface: Uh {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Yeah , pen is here on the table .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh , yeah . So you can {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . {gap} It's possible .
User Interface: It's possible .
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: That's nice . Have we found new ideas for having this kind of meetings ? Or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um , yeah maybe um uh when we n uh just uh give the numbers of of uh {disfmarker} Uh uh o one of uh out of s uh sev {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Um it's uh easier to uh to do the th things that are like that on a computer . Uh , so uh just l uh like uh at u university uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . So {disfmarker} Yeah . So everybody puts his own score .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And then {vocalsound} it mediates the score ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: and you can get one {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: That's better . So that's uh {disfmarker} How do we call ? Evaluation criteria . Okay . Mm , any more ideas ? Or questions about the project ? Or about the product ?
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Because I think then that we get to our last sheet . Are the costs within the budget ?
User Interface: Mm yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: They are .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Considering we are not going to make a docking station .
Project Manager: Do we {disfmarker} Docking station . That's a good point .
User Interface: {gap} .
Project Manager: But maybe because of the docking station the price of the remote can also be a little bit higher ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh and I think you can compensate that as well .
Industrial Designer: Perhaps .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: So I think that shouldn't be the biggest problem , because it's very cheap to make as well .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Do we think we gonna get the twelve and a half million ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Or what was it ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Fifty grand .
Project Manager: Fifteen fifteen million . I think we will . {vocalsound} If we gonna export this product . It's innovative .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Especially in America . People are pretty decadent . Sometimes .
User Interface: Yeah . Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , still I think {disfmarker} I mean if we're n gonna make a scroll-button anyway it'd be more for the younger people than for the older people .
Project Manager: You can do more . Yeah .
User Interface: Ah .
Marketing: So maybe we should just re-focus .
Project Manager: Just put it on the market for everybody . You can you can change markets where by changing the front covers .
User Interface: Ah .
Marketing: Or specifically for younger people .
Project Manager: That's one thing you can change it with .
User Interface: Ah .
Marketing: That's true .
Project Manager: So you can also try to uh reach the younger people by uh putting fancy covers on on the market . Just as a test . See how it works . That's I think a good advantage .
Marketing: Yeah , I think then it would be way more uh popular with younger people than it is , than would be with older people . Even if it were their covers .
Project Manager: Yeah . Uh , uh then I think we can have our little celebration , right now .
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's it . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Party party .
Project Manager: Yeah . I think we still have to fit in one more questionnaire . I think .
User Interface: Where's the champagne ?
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: I don't know . I didn't get a message from the from ending of the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh , I believe y uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh I think I have one now .
Marketing: Oh you did .
Project Manager: Five more minutes ? Oh that's nice .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Then we still have some questions . If somebody has some questions they can ask them now . Or we can put these in the project folder as well . Maybe that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Export as picture , I think .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm . This is another network , I guess . Does somebody see the project folder ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't . Hmm . My Documents .
User Interface: Uh maybe uh they will save it . So uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , I'll just put it in My Documents
Marketing: Yeah , it probably will .
Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker} That's okay . Okay . {vocalsound} I think I'm going to make our final presentation now .
Marketing: Oh yeah , you're supposed to make a final {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And then I will be back in about ten minutes to show you the final presentation . Summary of the project .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Are we supposed to go into our own rooms again ?
User Interface: Uh maybe we have to fill uh another questionnaire .
Project Manager: Yeah . Questionnaire . I think you all get a questionnaire in in your room .
User Interface: So uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then I'll meet you in I think about ten minutes , or something .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Hopefully my pen will download its software . Oh . Or data .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . That'd be nice .
| |
doc_50
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Grad A: OK , we 're on .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad A: So , I think this is gonna be a pretty short meeting because I have four agenda items , three of them were requested by Jane who is not gonna be at the meeting today . So . {vocalsound} The uh first was transcription status . Does anyone besides Jane know what the transcription status is ?
PhD F: Um , sort of , I do , peripherally .
PhD C: Is that English ?
PhD F: Um {disfmarker} Well first of all with IBM I got a note from Brian yesterday saying that they finally made the tape for the thing that we sent them a {pause} week or week and a half ago
PhD D: That 's our system .
Grad A: Ugh !
PhD F: and that it 's gone out to the transcribers and hopefully next week we 'll have the transcription back from that .
Grad A: C can I have a pen ?
PhD F: Um {disfmarker} Jane seems to be um moving right along on the transcriptions from the ICSI side . She 's assigned , I think probably five or six m more meetings .
PhD C: Yeah , I think we 're up to MR thirteen or something .
PhD D: Mmm .
PhD F: Yeah , so um , I guess she 's hired some new transcribers
PhD D: Speaking {disfmarker}
Grad E: Which meetings is she transcribing ?
PhD F: and {disfmarker} Um well we 've {disfmarker} we 've run out of E D Us because a certain number of them are um , sort of awaiting to go to IBM .
Grad E: OK .
PhD C: For IBM , yeah .
PhD D: Hmm .
Grad E: OK .
PhD F: and the rest are in process being transcribed uh here .
PhD D: So does she have transcribers right now who are basically sitting idle because there 's no data back from IBM
Grad E: So we 're doing some in parallel .
Grad A: Yep .
PhD F: No .
Grad A: No , no .
PhD F: Oh no no .
Grad A: We haven't done that process .
PhD D: no ?
PhD F: No . We 're not waiting on them .
Grad A: So . They ' r they 're doing the full transcription process .
PhD D: Oh . Oh , OK .
Grad E: So they 're just doing their own thing until {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD D: Because I {disfmarker} I need to ask Jane whether it 's {disfmarker} it would be OK for her {disfmarker} um , s some of her people to transcribe uh some of the initial data we got from the SmartKom data collection , which is these short like five or seven minute sessions .
PhD F: We 're doing it in parallel , yeah .
Grad E: OK .
PhD C: Yep .
PhD D: Um and we want it {disfmarker} You know , we need {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} Again , we {disfmarker} we have a similar uh logistic set - up where we are supposed to send the data to Munich
Grad A: Right .
PhD D: and get it transcribed and get it back . But to get going we would like some of the data transcribed right away so we can get started .
Grad A: Yep , sounds familiar .
PhD D: And so um I wanted to ask Jane if {disfmarker} if uh , you know , maybe one of their transcribers could {disfmarker} could do {disfmarker} I mean since these are very short , that should really be uh ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: um {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: There 's only two channels . So it 's only {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD C: As the synthesis doesn't have to be transcribed I think .
PhD D: It 's only two {disfmarker} Right , s
PhD C: So .
PhD D: Yeah . So {disfmarker} So it 's basically one channel to transcribe . And it 's {disfmarker} One session is only uh like seven {disfmarker}
Professor B: So that should have ma many fewer {disfmarker} And it 's also not uh a bunch of interruptions with people and all that ,
PhD D: Right . And some of it is read speech , so we could give them the {disfmarker} the thing that they 're reading
Professor B: right ? So . Yeah .
PhD D: and they just may {disfmarker}
Grad A: Make sure it 's right .
PhD C: Yep .
PhD D: And so um , um , I guess since she 's {disfmarker} I was gonna ask her but since she 's not around I {disfmarker} maybe I 'll {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah , well it certainly seems {disfmarker}
PhD D: Uh if {disfmarker} if that 's OK with you to {disfmarker} to , you know , get that stuff uh {disfmarker} to ask her for that , then I 'll do that .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah , if we 're held up on this other stuff a little bit in order to encompass that , that 's OK because I I um , I mean I still have high hopes that the that the IBM pipeline 'll work out for us , so it 's {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah . OK , yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: Alrighty .
PhD F: Oh , yeah , and also related to the transcription stuff , so I 've been trying to keep a web page uh up to date f showing what the current status is of the trans of all the things we 've collected and what stage each meeting is in , in terms of whether it 's {disfmarker}
Grad A: Can you mail that out to the list ?
PhD F: Mm - hmm , yeah I will . I {disfmarker} That 's the thing that I sent out just to foo people saying can you update these pages
Grad A: Oh , OK , OK .
PhD F: and so that 's where I 'm putting it but I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll send it out to the list telling people to look at it .
Grad A: Yeah , I haven't done that . So . I have lots of stuff to add that 's just in my own directory .
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad A: I 'll try to get to that . OK . So Jane also wanted to talk about participant approval , but I don't really think there 's much to talk about . I 'm just gonna do it . And uh , if anyone objects too much then they can do it instead .
Professor B: You are going to {disfmarker}
Grad A: I 'm gonna send out to the participants , uh , with links to web pages which contain the transcripts and allow them to {pause} suggest edits . And then bleep them out .
Professor B: OK .
Grad A: For the ones that we have . Um {disfmarker}
PhD C: So but it 's just transcripts , not the {disfmarker} not the audio ?
Grad A: Nope , they 'll have access to the audio also .
PhD C: OK , yeah , yep . Ah .
Grad A: I mean that 's my intention . Because the transcripts might not be right .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD F: So {disfmarker}
Grad A: So you want people to be able to listen to them .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD F: So , um the audio that they 're gonna have access to , will that be the uncompressed version ? Or will you have scripts that like uncompress the various pieces and {disfmarker}
Grad A: Oh , that 's a good point . That 's a good point . Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's probably going to have to be the uncompressed versions because , uh , uh , it takes too long to do random access decompression .
PhD F: Hmm . Yeah , I was just wondering because we 're uh running out of the un - backed - up disk space on
Grad A: Well , that was the other point .
PhD F: Oh , was that another one ?
Grad A: Yep , that 's another agenda item .
PhD F: OK . I 'll wait .
Grad A: So , uh {disfmarker} But that is a good point so we 'll get to that , too . Um , DARPA demo status , not much to say . The back - end stuff is working out fine . It 's more or less ready to go . I 've added some stuff that uh indes indexes by the meeting type MR , EDU , et cetera and also by the user ID . So that the front - end can then do filtering based on that as well . Uh {disfmarker} The back - end is uh , going more slowly as I s I think I said before just cuz I 'm not much of a Tcl - TK programmer . And uh Dave Gelbart says he 's a little too busy . So I think Don and I are gonna work on that and {disfmarker} and you and I can just talk about it off - line more .
Grad E: Right .
Grad A: But uh {pause} the back - end was pretty smooth .
Professor B: Oh
Grad A: So I think , we 'll have something . It may not be as {disfmarker} As pretty as we might like , but we 'll have something .
Professor B: I wondered whe when we would reach Dave 's saturation point . He 's sort of been {disfmarker} been volunteering for everything
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor B: and {pause} and uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: O K . Finally said he was too busy . I guess we reached it .
Grad A: Yeah , he {disfmarker} he actually {disfmarker} he volunteered but then he s then he retracted it . So . Oh well . Um {disfmarker}
Grad E: And , also um , I was just showing Andreas , I got um an X Waves kind of display , and I don't know how much more we can do with it {disfmarker} with like the prosodic stuff where we have like stylized pitches and signals and the transcripts on the bottom
Grad A: Oh , cool .
Grad E: so , right now it 's just an X Waves and then you have three windows but I don't know , it looked pretty nice and I 'm sure it {disfmarker} think it has potential for a little something ,
Grad A: For a demo ?
Grad E: yeah , for a demo .
Grad A: Yeah , sounds good .
Grad E: So {disfmarker}
Professor B: OK , so again , the issue is {disfmarker} For July , the issue 's gonna be what can we fit into a Windows machine , uh , and so on , but {disfmarker}
Grad E: Oh . OK .
Grad A: So it might just be slides .
Grad E: Yeah , OK .
PhD C: Well {disfmarker} {pause} Yeah .
Grad E: Well , we 'll see , um {disfmarker}
PhD C: I 've been putting together uh Transcriber things for Windows so i And I installed it on Dave Gelbart 's PC and it worked just fine . So hopefully that will work .
PhD D: Really ? So is that {disfmarker} Because there 's some people um {disfmarker} It would be cool if we could uh get that to work uh at {disfmarker} at SRI
PhD C: Yeah . Yep .
PhD D: because the um {disfmarker}
Grad A: Well Transcriber is Tcl - TK , very generic with Snack ,
PhD D: we have m m We have more Windows machines to run the {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad A: so basically anything you can get Snack to run on , it will work .
PhD D: Right .
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah but {disfmarker} But the problem is the version Transcriber works with , the Snack version , is one point six whatever and that 's not anymore supported . It 's not on {disfmarker} on the web page anymore . But I just wrote an email to {disfmarker} to the author of {disfmarker} to the Snack author and he sent me to one point six whatever library
Grad A: Well I thought it was packaged with Transcriber ?
PhD C: and so it works . Yeah , but then you can't add our patches and then the {disfmarker} the new version is {disfmarker} is totally different
Grad A: Oh .
PhD C: a and in {disfmarker} yeah , in terms of {disfmarker} of the source code .
Grad A: Ah .
PhD C: You {disfmarker} you can't find the Tcl files anymore . It 's some whatever wrapped thing
PhD D: Mmm .
PhD C: and you can't {disfmarker} you can't access that so you have to install {disfmarker} First install Tcl then install Snack and then install the Transcriber thing and then do the patches .
Grad A: Patch . Ugh !
PhD D: I {disfmarker} I wonder if {disfmarker} if we should contribute our changes back to the authors so that they maintain those changes along {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad A: We have {disfmarker} Yeah b it 's just hasn't made it into the release yet .
PhD D: We have ? Oh . Oh , OK .
PhD F: So did you um put the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the NT version out on the uh Meeting Recorder page ? Or {disfmarker}
PhD C: No , I haven't done that yet . I 'm {disfmarker} oh Nope . But I definitely will do that .
Professor B: So , can some of the stuff that Don 's talking about somehow fit into this Uh , mean you just have a set of numbers that are associated with the {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD C: So {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah , it 's basically ASCII files or binary files , whatever representation . Just three different {disfmarker} It 's a waveform and just a stylized pitch vector basically so it 's {disfmarker}
PhD D: So {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}
Grad E: I mean we could do it in Matl - {comment} I mean you could do it in a number of different places I 'm sure .
PhD D: But {disfmarker} But it would be cool if the Transcriber interface had like another window for the {disfmarker} you know , maybe above the waveform where it would show some arbitrary valued function that is {disfmarker} that is you know time synchron ti ti time synchronous with the wavform .
PhD C: Yep .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor B: Yes .
Grad E: Yeah , that 'd be very cool .
Grad A: It 'd be easy enough to add that . Again it 's {disfmarker} it 's {pause} It 's more Tcl - T
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad A: So someone who 's familiar with Tcl - TK has to do it ,
PhD D: Right .
Grad A: but uh , it wouldn't be hard to do .
PhD D: Right . But it would almost be like having another waveform displayed .
Grad A: Yep .
PhD C: Yep .
PhD D: S
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Right .
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah , maybe we could l look into that .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad A: But it {disfmarker} it seems to me that I c
PhD C: And {disfmarker}
Grad A: It doesn't seem like having that real time is that necessary . So yo It seems to me you could do images .
Grad E: Um {pause} What do you mean by real time ? Do you mean like {disfmarker}
PhD F: Like being able to scroll through it and stuff for the demo .
Grad E: OK .
Grad A: Yeah , jus Yeah .
PhD F: Is that what you mean ?
Grad A: It just seems to me jus
Grad E: It would be cool to see it {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad E: It would be cool like to see {disfmarker} to hear it and see it ,
PhD C: And to hear it . Yeah . Yeah .
Grad E: and see the pitch contours also .
Grad A: Sure , but I don't think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} You can do all that just statically in
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad E: I think it would lose {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean y
Grad A: Just record the audio clip and show an image and I think that 's {disfmarker}
Grad E: Right , right . I just thought if you meant slides I thought you meant like just {pause} like {pause} um view graphs or something .
Professor B: You know , wh Yeah . So . Uh , no , we 're talking about on the computer and {disfmarker} and um , I think when we were talking about this before we had littl this little demo meeting ,
Grad E: Right .
Professor B: we sort of set up a range of different degrees of liveness that you could have and , {vocalsound} the more live , the better , but uh , given the crunch of time , we may have to retreat from it to some extent . So I think {disfmarker} {pause} For a lot of reasons , I think it would be very nice to have this Transcriber interface be able to show some other interesting signal along with it
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: so it 'd be a good thing to get in there . But , um {disfmarker} Anyway , jus just looking for ways that we could actually show what you 're doing , uh , in {disfmarker} {pause} to people .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Cuz a lot of this stuff , particularly for Communicator , uh certainly a significant chunk of the things that we waved our arms about th originally had t had to do with prosodics It 'd be nice to show that we can actually get them and see them .
PhD D: Mmm .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: And the last i item on the agenda is disk issues yet again . So , we 're doing OK on backed up . We 're {disfmarker} We 're only about thirty percent on the second disk . So , uh , we have a little bit of time before that becomes critical , but we are like ninety five percent , ninety eight percent on the scratch disks for the expanded meetings .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad A: And , my original intention was like we would just delete them as we needed more space , but unfortunately we 're in the position where we have to deal with all the meeting data {pause} all at once , in a lot of different ways .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD F: Oh there 's a lot of transcribers , too .
Grad A: Yeah , there 're a lot of transcribers ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad A: so all of those need to be expanded , and then people are doing chunking and I want to do uh , uh , uh , the permission forms ,
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: An
PhD F: Right .
Grad A: so I want those to be live , so there 's a lot of data that has to be around . Um {disfmarker} And Jane was gonna talk to , uh , Dave Johnson about it . One of the things I was thinking is we {disfmarker} we just got these hundred {disfmarker} alright , excuse me {disfmarker} ten , uh SPARC - Blade SUN - Blades .
Professor B: Did they come in ?
PhD F: SUN - Blades .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah . They came in the other day .
Grad A: They came in but they 're not set up yet .
Professor B: Oh .
Grad A: And so it seems to me we could hang scratch disk on those {pause} because they 'll be in the machine room , they 'll be on the fast connection to the rest of the machines . And if we just need un - backed - up space , we could just hang disks off them .
PhD F: Well , is there {disfmarker} Why not just hang them off of Abbott , is there a {disfmarker}
Grad A: Because there 's no more room in the disk racks on Abbott .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: Ah .
Professor B: Weren't we gonna get {disfmarker}
PhD F: Ah , I see .
Professor B: Well , maybe it should get another rack .
PhD D: But you still need to store the disks somehow .
Grad A: Well , but the SUN - Blades have spare drive bays .
PhD D: So {disfmarker}
Grad A: Just put them in .
PhD F: You can put two {disfmarker}
PhD D: Oh you mean you put them inside the pizza boxes for the {disfmarker}
Grad A: Sure .
PhD C: Internal . Yeah .
Grad A: Yeah . Cuz the SUN {disfmarker} uh , these SUN - Blades take commodity hard drives .
PhD D: Oh .
Grad A: So you can just go out and buy a PC hard drive and stick it in .
PhD D: Mmm .
Professor B: But if Abbott is going to be our disk server it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} file server {comment} it seems like we would want to get it , uh , a second disk rack or something .
PhD D: Plus we 're talking about buying a second dis uh , file server .
Grad A: Well , I mean there are lots of long term solutions . What I 'm looking for is where do we s expand the next meeting ?
PhD C: Yep .
PhD D: I see {vocalsound} {pause} Oh , I see .
Professor B: Well , for the next meeting you might be out of luck with those ten , mightn't you ? Uh , you know Dave Johnson is gone for , like , ten days ,
Grad A: Oh , I didn't know he had left already .
Professor B: Uh , well , tonight .
Grad A: Oh , oh well .
PhD D: You mean he won't set up the {disfmarker} mmm .
Professor B: I don't know .
Grad E: How much space do you need for these ?
Professor B: I don't know what his schedule is .
Grad A: You {disfmarker} we need about a gig per meeting .
Professor B: I 'm just saying he 's gone .
PhD C: Yep .
PhD F: I {disfmarker} I thi
Grad E: I have um {disfmarker} I have an eighteen gig drive hanging off of my computer .
Grad A: Alright ! What 's your computer 's name ?
Grad E: So {disfmarker} Uh , Samosa .
Professor B: You had an eighteen gigabyte drive .
Grad E: Yeah , I had . Well it 's about {disfmarker} I think there 's about twelve gig left .
Grad A: So it {disfmarker} And you have an X drives installed ? OK .
Grad E: Yeah . So , I didn't realize it was so critical .
Grad A: And you 're o you 're offering ?
Grad E: I mean I 'm not doing anything on it right now until I get new meetings to transcri or that are {disfmarker} new transcriptions coming in I really can't do anything .
Grad A: OK .
Grad E: Um not that I can't do anything , I jus
PhD F: I {disfmarker} I jus I just gave Thilo some {disfmarker} about ten gigs , the last ten gigs of space that there was on {disfmarker} on uh Abbott . Uh {disfmarker} And uh {disfmarker} So but that {disfmarker} But {disfmarker}
Grad A: Which one was that , X {pause} G ? X {pause} G ?
PhD C: XG .
PhD F: XG .
Grad A: OK .
PhD D: XG ?
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD D: That 's also where we store the {disfmarker} The uh Hub - five training set waveforms ,
PhD C: Oops .
Grad A: But that won't be getting any bigger ,
PhD D: right ?
PhD F: No .
Grad A: will it ?
PhD F: I don't think that 's on XG .
PhD D: Right .
PhD F: On XG is only Carmen and Du - and Stephane 's disk .
PhD C: It 's {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD D: But I 've also been storing {disfmarker} I 've been storing the feature files there and I guess I can s start deleting some because we now know what the best features are
Grad E: Well {disfmarker}
PhD D: and we won't be using the old ones anymore .
Grad E: I have a lot of space , though .
PhD F: Yeah , I do I don't think it was on XG .
PhD D: Uh {disfmarker} Oh thats XA {disfmarker} Oh that 's X {disfmarker}
PhD C: Isn't that XH ?
PhD F: I th
Grad A: Not {disfmarker} not for long .
Grad E: I have a lot of space and it 's not {disfmarker} it 's n There 's very little uh {disfmarker} Yeah not for long .
PhD D: Maybe I 'm confu
Grad E: But I mean it 's not going f
PhD D: Oh no I 'm sorry .
Grad E: It 's not being used often at all .
PhD C: But I 'm using XH {disfmarker} H , too .
Grad A: Yeah , it 's probably {disfmarker} Probably only about four gig is on X {disfmarker} on your X drive ,
PhD C: So .
PhD D: Oh OK .
Grad A: but we 'll definitely take it up if you {disfmarker}
Grad E: I th
PhD D: I think you 're right . It 's XH and D {disfmarker}
Grad E: I think it 's about four or five gig cuz I have four meetings on there ,
PhD D: The b I 'm also using DG I got that confused .
Grad E: three or four meetings .
PhD D: OK .
Grad A: Great .
Grad E: So .
Grad A: OK , so that will get us through the next couple days .
Professor B: We need {disfmarker} We need another gigaquad .
Grad A: Yep . At least .
Professor B: There should {disfmarker} I d There should just be a b I should have a button .
Grad A: The " more disk space " button ?
Professor B: Just press {disfmarker} Press each meeting saying " we need more disk space " {vocalsound} " this week " .
Grad A: Yep .
Professor B: Skip the rest of the conversation .
PhD F: Well we 've collected so far something like uh sixty - five meetings .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} And how much does each meeting take ?
PhD F: And it 's about a gig uncompressed .
PhD C: It 's {disfmarker} It 's a little bit more as I usually don't {disfmarker} do not uncompress the {disfmarker} all of the PZM and the PDA things .
PhD F: Is a little more ?
PhD C: So .
PhD F: Right , yeah so if you uncompressed everything it 's even more .
PhD C: It 's {disfmarker} Yeah . One point five or something .
PhD F: U Uh compressed how much are they ? Like {disfmarker}
Grad A: Half a gig . For all of them .
PhD F: About half ?
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah . Yep .
PhD F: So we 're definitely are storing you know , all of those . So there 's what thirty some gig of just meetings so far ?
Professor B: So - so So maybe there 's a hundred {pause} gig or something . Or {disfmarker} I mean . Cuz we {disfmarker} we have the uncompressed around also .
PhD F: Mm - hmm . Right .
Professor B: So it 's like {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD F: Right . Well we {disfmarker} We haven't uncompressed all the meetings , but {disfmarker}
Grad A: I would like to .
Professor B: Yeah . Well I mean it 's {disfmarker} the they really are cheap . I mean it 's just a question of figuring out where they should be and hanging them ,
Grad A: Yep .
PhD F: Right .
Professor B: but But uh , we could {disfmarker} You know , if you want to get four disks , get four disks . I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's small {disfmarker} I mean these things ar are just a few hundred dollars .
PhD F: Yeah . Well I sent that message out to , I guess , you and Dave asking for {disfmarker} if we could get some disk .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: I s I sent this out a {disfmarker} a day ago
Grad A: And put it where ?
Professor B: Right .
PhD F: but {disfmarker} and Dave didn't respond so I don I don't know how the whole process works . I mean does he just go out and get them and {disfmarker} if it 's OK , and {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yep .
PhD F: So I was assuming he was gonna take over {pause} that . But he 's probably too busy given that he 's leaving .
Professor B: Yeah , I think you need a direct conversation with him . And just {vocalsound} say an - e just ask him that , you know , wha what should you do . And in my answer back was " are you sure you just want one ? " So I mean I think {pause} that what you want to do is plan ahead a little bit and figure " well , here 's what we pi figure on doing for the next few months " .
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad A: Wa - a I know what they want . The sysadmins would prefer to have one external drive per machine . So they don't want to stack up external drives .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad A: Um {disfmarker} {pause} And then they want everything else in the machine room .
Professor B: Right .
Grad A: So the question is where are you gonna hang them ?
PhD F: Mm - hmm . I don't know what the space situation is in the machine room .
Grad A: Right .
PhD F: So .
Professor B: Right . So this is a question that 's pretty hard to solve without talking to Dave ,
PhD D: Th - The {disfmarker}
PhD F: I think part of the reason why Dave can't get the {disfmarker} the new machines up is because he doesn't have room in the machine room right now .
Professor B: cuz it {disfmarker}
PhD D: One {disfmarker} Mmm .
Grad A: Yep .
PhD D: One {disfmarker} One On - One thing to in to um t to do when you need to conserve space is
PhD F: So he has to re - arrange a bunch of stuff .
PhD D: I bet there are still some old , uh , like , nine gig disks , uh , around and you can probably consolidate them onto larger disks and {disfmarker} and you know recover the space .
Grad A: Yep .
Professor B: Yeah . No . I think Dave {disfmarker} Dave knows all these things , of course . An - and so , he always has a a lot of plans of things that he 's gonna do to make things better in many ways an and runs out of time .
PhD D: Right . Mm - hmm .
Grad A: But I {disfmarker} I know that {pause} generally their first priority has been for backed up disk . And so I think what he 's been concentrating on is uh the back {disfmarker} the {pause} back up system , rather than on new disk .
PhD D: Mmm . Mmm .
Grad A: So . Which {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well . So . But this {disfmarker} this is a very specific question for me . Basically , we can easily get {pause} one to four disks , I mean you just go out and get four and we 've got the money for it , it 's no big deal . Uh , but the question is where they go , and I don't think we can solve that here , you just have to ask him .
PhD D: Maybe we can put some disks in the {disfmarker} in that back room there .
Grad A: Yeah really .
Professor B: Attach to {disfmarker}
Grad A: Popcorn .
Professor B: Yeah ?
PhD D: To the machine that collects the data . So then you could , at least temporarily , store stuff there .
Grad A: Yeah , it 's just {disfmarker} It 's not on the net , so it 's a little {pause} awkward
PhD D: The only {disfmarker}
PhD F: Hmm .
PhD D: What do you mean it 's not on the net ?
Grad A: It 's not {disfmarker}
PhD C: It 's not bad .
Grad A: It 's behind lots of fire walls that don't allow any services through except S S
PhD D: Oh because it 's {disfmarker} because it 's an ACIRI machine ?
Grad A: Yep .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: Oh , oh oh .
Grad A: And also on the list is to get it into the normal ICSI net , but Who knows when that will happen ?
PhD D: But that can't be that hard .
PhD F: That might be a good short term solution , though .
PhD D: I mean {disfmarker}
Grad A: No , the {disfmarker} the problem with that apparently is that they don't currently have a wire running to that back room {pause} that goes anywhere near one of the ICSI routers .
PhD D: Oh ,
Grad A: So , they actually have to run a wire somewhere .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah , e again , you know , any one of these things is certainly not a big deal . If there was a person dedicated to doing it they would happen pretty easily but it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} jus every ever everybody {disfmarker} everybody has a {disfmarker} has {disfmarker}
Grad A: But Dave has to do all of them .
Professor B: Well all of us have long lists of different things we 're doing . But at any rate I think that there 's a {disfmarker} there 's a longer term thing and there 's immediate need and I think we need a {disfmarker} a conversation with {disfmarker} Uh , maybe {disfmarker} maybe after {disfmarker} after tea or something you and I can go down and {disfmarker} and talk to him about it Just say " wha you know , what should we do right now ? "
PhD F: How long is David gonna be gone ?
Professor B: Uh , eleven days or something ?
Grad A: Oh my !
Professor B: Yeah basically tomorrow and all of {pause} the week after .
Grad A: And that 's all I have .
Professor B: Um {disfmarker} Let 's see . The only oth thing {disfmarker} other thing I was gonna add was that um {disfmarker} uh , I talked briefly to Mari and uh we had {vocalsound} both been busy with other things so we haven't really connected that much since the {pause} last meeting we had here but we agreed that we would have a telephone meeting the Friday after next . And I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanted to make it , um after the next one of these meetings , so something that we wanna do next meeting is {disfmarker} is uh to put together um , a kind of reasonable list for ourselves of what is it , um , that we 've done . I mean just sort of bulletize I mean o e do do I can {disfmarker} I can dream up text but {pause} this is basically gonna lead to the annual report . So {pause} Um {disfmarker} If w
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: This is the fifteenth ? So just a week from tomorrow ?
Professor B: Um , that would
Grad A: OK .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah . So , uh , we can {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} So that 's an {disfmarker}
PhD D: Is this gotta be in the morning ?
Professor B: Um {disfmarker}
PhD D: Or {disfmarker} Because you know I {disfmarker} Fridays I have to leave uh like around uh two . So if it could be before that would be be
Professor B: No , no but I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't need other folks for the meeting . I can do it . A A All I 'm saying is that on {disfmarker}
PhD D: Oh , OK , alright . Oh I 'm sorry , I misunderstood .
Professor B: Yeah so what I meant was on the me this meeting {pause} if I wa something I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm making a major thing in the agenda is I wanna help in getting together a list of what it is that we 've done so I can tell her .
PhD D: I thought you are {disfmarker} OK . Alright . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I think I have a pretty good idea
PhD D: OK .
Professor B: but {disfmarker} but um {disfmarker} Uh , and then the next day uh , late in the day I 'll be having that {disfmarker} that discussion with her .
PhD D: Mmm .
Professor B: Um . So .
PhD D: Um {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} One thing {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} in past meetings we had um also a you know various {disfmarker} variously talked about the um work that w uh was happening sort of on the {disfmarker} on the recognition side
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: um but isn't necessarily related to meetings uh specifically . So . Um . And I wondered whether we should maybe have um a separate meeting and between you know , whoever 's interested in that because I feel that uh there 's plenty of stuff to talk about but it would be sort of um maybe the wrong place to do it in this meeting if uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: Think so ?
PhD D: Well , it 's that {disfmarker} It 's just gonna be ver very boring for people who are not you know , sort of really interested in the details of the recognition system .
Grad A: I 'm interested .
Professor B: Well , OK , so how many {disfmarker} how many people here would not be interested in uh {disfmarker} in a meeting about recognition ?
PhD C: Me too .
PhD F: Jane may not be .
Grad A: Jane , I think .
PhD C: Yep .
PhD D: Well I know {disfmarker} Well , Jane an Well you mean in a separate meeting or ha ha talking about it in this {disfmarker}
Grad A: No . If we talked about it in this meeting .
PhD F: He 's wondering how much overlap there will be .
Professor B: Yeah , so you 're su
PhD D: OK .
Professor B: So .
PhD D: So , uh , uh , Liz and Jane probably .
Professor B: OK , so we 're gonna have a guy 's meeting .
PhD D: Uh . {vocalsound} Uh , if you wanna put it that way .
PhD F: Good thing Liz isn't here .
Professor B: Real {disfmarker}
Grad E: Watch a ball game ?
Professor B: Yeah , real {disfmarker} real {disfmarker} real men {vocalsound} " Real men do decoding " or something like that .
PhD F: Don't listen to this , Liz .
PhD D: Right .
Professor B: Uh .
PhD D: I mean it it 's sort of {disfmarker} I mean when {disfmarker} when the talk is about data collection stuff , sometimes I 've {disfmarker} you know , I {disfmarker} I 'm bored .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad A: The {disfmarker} Nod off ?
PhD D: So it 's I c I can sympathize with them not wanting to {disfmarker} i to {disfmarker} to be uh {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} I cou you know {disfmarker} this could {disfmarker}
Professor B: It 's cuz {pause} y you have a {disfmarker} So you need a better developed feminine side .
PhD D: I 'm
Professor B: There 's probably gonna be a lot of " bleeps " in this meeting .
PhD D: not sure I wanna {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah , I would as {comment} I would guess .
Professor B: Uh . Um .
PhD D: Yeah and {disfmarker}
Professor B: I think it must be {pause} uh nearing the end of the week . Um . {vocalsound} Yeah . I {disfmarker} You know , I {disfmarker} I 've heard some comments about like this . That m could be .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I mean the {disfmarker} Um . {vocalsound} U
PhD D: And we don't have to do it every week .
PhD F: Could we {disfmarker}
PhD D: We could do it every other week or so . You know , whatev or whenever we feel like we {disfmarker}
PhD F: Right , I was {disfmarker} Why don't we alternate this meeting every other week ?
Grad A: Or just alternate the focus .
PhD F: Tha - That 's what I mean .
Grad A: Yeah , so on even weeks have {pause} basic {pause} on data .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: We could do that , yeah .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD D: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Personally I 'd {disfmarker} I 'm not in favor of more meetings . Um . {vocalsound} Because , uh .
Professor B: Right .
Grad A: I am .
PhD D: You know .
Grad A: Oh sor
PhD F: But I do I don't {disfmarker} I mean a lot of times lately it seems like we don't really have enough for a full meeting on Meeting Recorder .
PhD D: Right .
Grad A: Well , except that we keep going for our full time .
PhD F: So if we did that {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yep .
PhD F: Well , cuz we get into these other topics .
Grad A: Yeah .
PhD D: We feel {disfmarker} We feel obligated to collect more data .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad A: Ugh .
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad A: I don't .
PhD F: So if we could alternate the focus of the meeting {disfmarker}
Grad A: Let 's read digits and go .
Professor B: Why don't we just start with that .
PhD D: ummh . {comment} ummh . {comment} OK .
Professor B: And then if we find , you know we 're just not getting enough done , there 's all these topics not coming up , then we can expand into another meeting .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But I {disfmarker} I think that 's a great idea . Uh . So uh . Um . Let 's chat about it with Liz and Jane {pause} when we get a chance , see what they think and {disfmarker}
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Yeah that would be good . I mean Andreas and I have various talks in the halls
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: and there 's lots of things , you know , details and stuff that would I think people 'd be interested in and I 'd {disfmarker} you know , where do we go from here kind of things and {disfmarker} So , it would be good .
Professor B: Yeah , and you 're {disfmarker} you 're attending {pause} the uh {disfmarker} the front - end meeting as well as the others so you have {disfmarker} you have probably one of the best {disfmarker} you and I , I guess are the main ones who sort of see the bridge between the two .
Grad A: Bridge .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: We are doing recognition in both of them . So .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Right .
Professor B: Uh .
Grad A: OK ?
PhD D: So um . So {disfmarker} so we could talk a little bit about that now if {disfmarker} if there 's some time .
Grad A: No , no that would be for next week .
PhD D: Um I jus So the latest result was that um um yot I tested the uh {disfmarker} the sort of final version of the PLP configuration um on development test data for {disfmarker} for this year 's Hub - five test set .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: And the recognition performance was exactly , and I mean exactly up to the {disfmarker} you know , the first decimal , same as with the uh Mel Cepstra front - end .
Grad A: Mmm .
PhD F: For both females and males ?
PhD D: Yes . Uh , well i there was a little bit of a {disfmarker}
PhD F: Oh !
PhD D: i overall . They {disfmarker} They were {disfmarker} The males I think were slightly better and the females were slightly worse but nothing really .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: I mean definitely not significant .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: And then the really nice thing was that if {disfmarker} if we combine the two systems we get a one and a half percent improvement .
Grad A: Wow . Just with ROVER ?
PhD D: So . t With N - best ROVER , which is like our {vocalsound} new and improved version of ROVER .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Which u actually uses the whole N - best list from both systems {pause} to {pause} mmm , uh {pause} c combine that .
Professor B: So except {disfmarker} I mean the only key difference between the two really is the kind of smoothing at the end which is the auto - regressive versus the cepstral truncation .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: OK .
PhD D: And , the {disfmarker}
PhD F: But a percent and a half ?
Grad A: Yeah , it 's pretty {pause} impressive .
PhD F: That 's {disfmarker}
PhD D: And {disfmarker} And so uh after I told the {disfmarker} my uh colleagues at SRI about that , you know , now they definitely want to , you know , uh , have a {disfmarker} Next time we have an evaluation they want to do uh , you know , basically a at least the system combination . Um , and , you know , why not ?
Professor B: Sure , why not ?
PhD D: Uh . {vocalsound} So .
Grad A: We clearly gotta add a few more features , though .
PhD D: Uh w what do you mean ? More features in the sense of front - end features or in the sense of just bells and whistles ?
Grad A: No , uh front - end features . You know we did PLP and Mel Cepstra . Let 's , you know , try RASTA and MSG , and {disfmarker}
PhD D: Oh I mean {disfmarker} Yeah . Well Right . So , we cou Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} There 's one thing uh {disfmarker} I mean you don't want to overdo it because y every front - end {disfmarker} You know , if you {disfmarker} you know you basically multiply your effort by N , where N is a number of different systems
PhD F: Oh .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: and {disfmarker} Um . So . So one {disfmarker} one compromise would be to {disfmarker} only to have the {disfmarker} everything up to the point where you generate lattices be basically one system and then after that you rescore your lattices with the multiple systems and combine the results and that 's a fairly painless um thing .
Professor B: Mmm . An
PhD D: So .
PhD F: Do you think we 'd still get the one and a half uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: I {disfmarker} I think so . Yeah . Maybe a little less because at that point the error rates are lower and so if {disfmarker} You know , maybe it 's only one percent or something but that would still be worthwhile doing .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: So . Um {pause} Jus - You know , just wanted to let you know that that 's working out very nicely .
Grad A: Cool .
PhD D: And then we had some results on {pause} digits , uh , with um {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} So this was uh really {comment} {disfmarker} really sort of just to get Dave going with his um experiments .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: And so , uh . But as a result , um , you know , we were sort of wondering why is the Hub - five system doing so well on the digits .
Professor B: Right .
PhD D: And the reason is basically there 's a whole bunch of read speech data in the Hub - five training set .
Grad A: Right .
Professor B: Including digits I gather , yeah .
PhD D: And you c And {disfmarker} Not all of {disfmarker} No it 's actually , digits is only a maybe a fifth of it .
Professor B: A fifth of it is how much ?
PhD D: The rest is {disfmarker} is read {disfmarker} is read TIMIT data and uh ATIS data and Wall Street Journal and stuff like that .
Professor B: Right . But a fi a fifth is how much ?
PhD D: A fifth would be maybe uh two hours something .
Professor B: Yeah , so I mean that 's actually not that different from the {pause} amount of training that there was .
PhD D: Right .
Professor B: So .
PhD D: But it definitely helps to have the other read data in there
Professor B: Oh yeah
PhD D: because we 're doing {disfmarker}
Professor B: w
PhD D: You know the error rate is half of what you do if you train only on ti uh TIMIT {disfmarker} {comment} uh not TIMIT uh TI - digits ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: which is only what two hours something ?
Professor B: Right .
Grad A: I don't know .
PhD D: So . Uh , more read speech data definitely helps . And you can leave out all the conversational data with no performance penalty .
Professor B: Yeah that was the interesting thing .
PhD D: That 's e
Professor B: Because {disfmarker} because uh , it was apparent if you put in a bunch more data it would be better ,
PhD D: That was e Right , right .
Professor B: but {disfmarker} but uh .
PhD D: Right .
PhD F: Well is there even more read speech data around ?
PhD D: Oh , yeah . So we only {disfmarker} for the Hub - five training , we 're only using uh a fairly small subset of the Macrophone {pause} database .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Um , so , you could beef that up and probably do even better .
Grad A: I could also put in {pause} uh focus condition zero from Hub - four from Broadcast News , which is mostly prepared speech .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: It 's not exactly read speech but it 's pretty darn close .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah . Right . Well , I mean that 's plenty of read speech data . I mean , Wall Street Journal , {pause} uh , take one example .
Grad A: Yeah . That 's right .
PhD D: But um . So , you know that might be useful for the people who train the {disfmarker} the digit recognizers to {disfmarker} to use uh something other than TI - digits .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor B: Well they been using TIMIT .
PhD D: OK .
Professor B: That {disfmarker} Uh . {pause} They {disfmarker} they uh {disfmarker} they experimented for a while with a bunch of different databases with French and Spanish and so forth cuz they 're multilingual tests
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} and uh , um , {disfmarker} and actually the best results they got wa were uh using TIMIT .
Grad A: Hmm .
Professor B: Uh {disfmarker} But uh {disfmarker} which {disfmarker} So that 's what they 're {disfmarker} they 're using now .
PhD D: Mmm .
Professor B: But {disfmarker} but yeah certainly if we , um {disfmarker} If we knew what the structure of what we 're doing there was . I mean there 's still a bunch of messing around with different kinds of uh noise robustness algorithms .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So we don't know exactly which combination we 're gonna be going with .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Once we know , then {disfmarker} the trainable parts of it {disfmarker} it 'd be great to run lots of {disfmarker} lots of stuff through .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Right . Well , that was that . And then I th guess Chuck and I had some discussions about how to proceed with the tandem uh system and {disfmarker} You wanna {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You wanna see where that stands ?
PhD F: Well , I 'm {disfmarker}
PhD D:
PhD F: Yeah , so Andreas uh brought over the uh alignments that the SRI system uses . And so I 'm in the process of um converting those alignments into uh label files that we can use to train uh a new net with . And uh so then I 'll train the net . And .
PhD D: An - And one side effect of that would be that it 's {disfmarker} um that the phone set would change . So the MLP would be trained on I think only forty - six or forty - eight {disfmarker}
PhD F: Right . Eight .
PhD D: forty - eight phones ?
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Uh which is smaller than the um than the phone set that {disfmarker} that we 've been using so far .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: And that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that will probably help , actually ,
PhD F: So it 's a little different ?
PhD D: because um the fewer dimensions uh e the less trouble probably with the {disfmarker} as far as just the um , um {disfmarker} Just {disfmarker} You know we want to try things like deltas on the tandem features . And so you h have to multiply everything by two or three . And so , you know , fewer dimensions in the {pause} phone set would be actually helpful just from a logistics point of view .
Professor B: Sure . Although we {disfmarker} I mean , it 's not that many fewer and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and we take a KLT anyway so we could {disfmarker}
PhD D: Right . Exactly .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: So {disfmarker} so that was the other thing . And then we wanted to s just limit it to maybe uh something on the same order of dimensions as we use in a standard um front - end . So that would mean just doing the top I don't know ten or twelve or something of the KLT dimensions .
Professor B: Yeah , and I think {disfmarker} and we sh again check {disfmarker} we should check with Stephane . My impression was that when we did that before that had very little {disfmarker} uh he didn't lose very much .
PhD D: Right .
PhD F: By just taking the top whatever ?
Grad A: Yep .
Professor B: Yeah yeah .
PhD D: But then {disfmarker} And then something {disfmarker} Once we have the new M L P trained up , uh one thing I wanted to try just for the fun of it was to actually run uh like a standard hybrid system that is based on you know , those features uh and uh retrain MLP and also the you know , the dictionary that we use for the Hub - five system .
Professor B: And the b And the base u starting off with the base of the alignments that you got from i from a pretty decent system .
PhD D: Exactly .
PhD F: Right .
PhD D: Yeah . So that would basically give us a , um , more {disfmarker} hopefully a {disfmarker} a better system
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: um because {disfmarker} you know , compared to what Eric did a while ago , where he trained up , I think , a system based on Broadcast News and then uh tra retraining it on Switchboard or s uh and {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: But he {disfmarker} I think he d he didn't {disfmarker} he probably didn't use all the training data that was available . And his dictionary probably wasn't as tuned to um conversational speech as {disfmarker} as the {disfmarker} as ours is .
Professor B: That 's {disfmarker} That 's certainly one thing , yeah .
PhD D: So .
Professor B: Uh . Yeah .
PhD D: And the dictionary made a huge difference . Uh . We {disfmarker} we made some improvements to the dictionary 's uh {disfmarker} to the dictionary about two years ago which resulted in a {disfmarker} uh something like a four percent absolute error rate reduction on Switchboard , which {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well the other thing is , dipping {pause} deep into history and into uh our resource management days , when we were collaborating with SRI before ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Mmm .
Professor B: uh it was {disfmarker} I think , it is was a really key uh starting point for us that we actually got our alignment .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: When we were working together we got our initial alignments from Decipher , uh {pause} at the time .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor B: Uh . {pause} And . Later we got away from it because {disfmarker} because once we had decent systems going then it was {disfmarker} it was typically better to use our own systems
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: cuz they were self consistent but {disfmarker} but certainly to start off when we were trying to recover from our initial hundred and forty percent error uh rate . Uh . {vocalsound} But that was a {disfmarker} that was a good {disfmarker} good {disfmarker} good way to start .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: And we 're not quite that bad with our {disfmarker} our Switchboard systems but it was {disfmarker} they certainly aren't as good as SRI 's ,
PhD D: OK . Yeah .
Professor B: so {disfmarker}
PhD D: Right .
PhD F: W What is the performance on s the best Switchboard system that we 've done ? Roughly ?
Professor B: Well , the hybrid system we never got better than about fifty percent {pause} error . And uh it was {disfmarker} I think there 's just a whole lot of things that uh no one ever had time for . We never did really fix up the dictionary . Uh we always had a list of a half dozen things that we were gonna do and {disfmarker} and a lot of them were pretty simple and we never did .
PhD D: Yeah . Mmm .
Professor B: Uh , we never did an never did any adaptation
PhD D: But that w Even that {disfmarker} that number {disfmarker}
Professor B: uh , we never did any {disfmarker}
PhD D: Right . And {disfmarker} And that number I think was on Switchboard - one data , right ? Where the error rate now is in the twenties .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: So , um .
Professor B: So we were {disfmarker} Yeah . We were probably at least a factor or two off .
PhD D: That 's yet s Right .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: So it would be {disfmarker} So it would be good t to sort of r re uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: just at least to give us an idea of how well the hybrid system would do .
Professor B: Yeah . But I think {disfmarker} again it 's {disfmarker} Yeah . It 's the conver it 's the s conversational speech bit . Because our {disfmarker} our Broadcast News system is actually pretty good .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: He knows .
PhD D: Right . And the other thing that that would help us to evaluate is to see how well the M L P is trained up . Right ? Because it 's a pretty good um indicator of that .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: So it 's sort of a sanity check of the M L P outputs {pause} before we go ahead and train up the {disfmarker} uh you know , use them as a basis for the tandem system .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah . It 'll still probably be worse . I mean , it 's {disfmarker} it 'd be context independent and so on .
PhD D: No . Sure . Not {disfmarker}
PhD F: Should we {disfmarker} Should we bother with um using the net before doing uh embedded training ?
Professor B: But .
PhD D: But {disfmarker}
PhD F: I mean should {disfmarker} should we even use that ?
PhD D: Oh {pause} oh that 's a good question .
PhD F: Or should I just go straight to {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah , we {disfmarker} we weren't sure whether it 's worth to just use the alignments um from the S R I recognizer or whether to actually go through one or more iterations of embedded training where you realign .
Grad A: Try it . You run it ? Keep {disfmarker} keep both versions ? See which one 's better ?
Professor B: Uh , yeah . I mean . I think I agree with Ad I mean basically you would then {disfmarker} You proceed with the embedded training .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: It 's gonna take you a while to train at this net anyway .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Right .
Professor B: And while it 's training you may as well test the one you have and see how it did .
PhD D: OK . Alright .
PhD F: Mmm .
Grad A: I could make arguments either way . You know , it 's {disfmarker}
PhD D: But {disfmarker} But so I {disfmarker}
Grad A: Sort of given up guessing .
PhD D: Well but i But in your experience I mean uh have you seen big improvements in s on some tasks with embedded training ? Or was it sort of small - ish uh improvements that you got
Professor B: Uh well . It depended on the task . I mean I think in this one I would sort of expect it to be important
PhD D: Right .
Professor B: because we 're coming from uh , alignments that were achieved with an extremely different system .
PhD D: That are from another {disfmarker} Right .
Grad A: Although , I mean we 've done it with {disfmarker} When we were combining with the Cambridge recurrent neural net , embedded training made it worse .
PhD D: Right .
Professor B: Uh .
Grad A: Which I 've never figured out .
Professor B: Right . But I mean i
Grad A: I think it 's a bug .
PhD D: So you {disfmarker} you started training with outputs from a {disfmarker} with alignments that were generated by the Cambridge uh system ?
Grad A: Yep .
PhD D: And then {disfmarker} Uh .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: Hmm . Well , that might probably just {disfmarker} Hmm . That was probably because your initial system {disfmarker} I mean your system was ba worse than Cambridge 's . And you {disfmarker} Um .
Professor B: Was it ? I don't think it was .
Grad A: No they were {disfmarker} they were comparable .
PhD D: It wasn't ?
Professor B: No .
Grad A: They were very close .
PhD D: Really ?
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: That 's weird .
Professor B: Excuse me ?
PhD D: That 's {disfmarker} That 's weird .
Grad A: That 's what I said .
Professor B: Oh !
PhD D: No I mean it 's weird that it did {disfmarker} I 'm sorry . It 's w It 's weird that it got worse .
PhD F: That 's ambiguous .
Professor B: Um . No . Uh . Tha - u we we 've see I mean {disfmarker} and wi with the numbers {disfmarker} OGI numbers task we 've seen a number of times people doing embedded trainings and things not getting better .
PhD D: Oh actually it 's not that weird because we have seen {disfmarker} We have seen cases where acoustic {disfmarker} retraining the acoustic models after some other change made matters worse rather than better .
Professor B: Yeah . It just {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: But I But I would {disfmarker} I would suspect that something that {disfmarker} that had um a very different Um feature set , for instance {disfmarker} I mean they were using pretty diff similar feature sets to us .
Grad A: Yep .
Professor B: I {disfmarker} I would expect that something that had a different feature set would {disfmarker} would uh benefit from {disfmarker}
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: What about uh hidden unit size {pause} on this .
Professor B: Oh , wait a minute , and the other thing uh ,
PhD F: Oh .
Professor B: sorry , it was {disfmarker} the other thing is that what was in common {comment} to the Cambridge system and our system is they both were training posteriors .
Grad A: Right . Ah yeah .
Professor B: So I mean , uh , that 's another pretty big difference
Grad A: That 's another big difference .
Professor B: and uh , one bac at least {disfmarker} Back at {disfmarker}
PhD D: You mean with soft targets ? Or {disfmarker} ? Sorry , I 'm sor I missed {disfmarker} What {disfmarker} What 's the key issue here ?
Professor B: Oh , that uh both the Cambridge system and our system were {disfmarker} were training {pause} posteriors . And if we 're {disfmarker} we 're coming from alignments coming from the SRI system , it 's a likelihood - based system . So {disfmarker} so that 's another difference .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: I mean . You know , there 's diffe different front - end different {disfmarker} different uh , um , training criterion {disfmarker} Uh , I would think that in a that an embedded {pause} uh {pause} embedded uh training would have at least a good shot of improving it some more .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But we don't know .
PhD D: OK .
Professor B: You gonna say something ?
PhD F: Yeah . I was wondering uh you know what size net I should {disfmarker} Anybody have any intuitions or suggestions ?
Professor B: Uh , how much training data ?
PhD F: Well , I was gonna start off with the small train set .
Professor B: And how {disfmarker} How many hours is that ?
PhD F: That 's why I was {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how much that is .
PhD D: Uh , I think that has about {disfmarker} Well i you 'd {disfmarker} would be gender - dependent training , right ? So {disfmarker} So I think it 's {disfmarker} uh that 's about mmm , something like thirty hours .
PhD F: Gender - dependent , yeah .
PhD D: Thirty hours per gender .
PhD F: Thirty hours .
Grad A: I 'm not sure what this 'll mean .
PhD F: In the small training set ?
Grad A: Hello ?
PhD D: I {disfmarker} I think so . I 'll {disfmarker}
Grad A: Excuse me ?
PhD D: It 's definitely less than a hundred {disfmarker}
Grad A: Alright .
PhD D: You know , it 's more like {disfmarker} like thirty forty hours something like that .
Grad A: Wrong number .
PhD F: They called to tell us that ?
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: Um . So . Uh . after run
PhD F: I mean , I didn't want to do too big ,
Professor B: Right . So
PhD F: just {disfmarker}
Professor B: At least a couple thousand hidden units . I mean . It 's {disfmarker} it 's th the thing I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll think about it a little more
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: but it {disfmarker} it 'd be toss up between two thousand and four thousand .
PhD F: Mmm .
Professor B: You definitely wouldn't want the eight thousand . It 's m It 's more than {disfmarker}
PhD F: And a thousand is too small ?
Professor B: Oh let me think about it , but I think that {disfmarker} that uh th at some point there 's diminishing returns . I mean it doesn't actually get worse , typically ,
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: but it {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but there is diminishing returns and you 're doubling {pause} the amount of time .
PhD D: Remember you 'll have a smaller output layer so there 's gonna be fewer parameters there .
Grad A: But not by a lot .
Professor B: Not by much .
PhD D: And then {disfmarker}
Professor B: Fifty s Fifty four to forty eight ?
Grad A: Vast majority is from the input unit .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: OK . Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah . It 'll have a very tiny effect .
Grad A: Right , because you used the context windows and so the input to hidden is much , much larger .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: Oh I see , I see , yeah , of course .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah . It 's negligible , OK .
Professor B: Yeah , so it 's {disfmarker} it 'd be way , way less than ten percent of the difference .
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor B: Uh . There 's uh {disfmarker} How bi how big Let 's see . What am I trying to think of ?
PhD F: The {disfmarker} The net that {disfmarker} that we did use already {pause} uh was eight thousand hidden units and that 's the one that Eric trained up .
Professor B: Right . And that was trained up on uh like a hundred and forty hours of {disfmarker} of speech .
PhD D: Was that gender - dependent or independent ?
PhD F: Gender - dependent .
Professor B: Oh . So that would be like trained on s sixty or seventy hours .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , uh , yeah definitely not the one thousand uh {disfmarker} two thousand fr I mean the four thousand will be better and the two thousand will be almost {disfmarker} will be faster and almost as good .
Grad A: It 'll be faster .
Professor B: So .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Maybe I 'll start off with two thousand just to see .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: OK .
PhD F: OK .
Professor B: Yeah , thirty hours is like a hundred and ten thousand uh seconds . Uh , so that 's like eleven {disfmarker} eleven million frames . And a two thousand hidden unit net is uh I guess about seven , eight hundred thousand parameters . So that 's probably {disfmarker} That 's probably fine . I mean a four thousand is well within the range that you could benefit from but the two thousand 'd be faster so {disfmarker}
PhD D: Right . I actually have to go .
Professor B: Alright .
PhD D: So .
Professor B: Uncle Bernie 's rule is ten to one . Bernie Woodrow 's Rule of {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} Uncle Bernie {disfmarker} yeah .
Grad A: We 're just waiting for you to leave .
Professor B: Yes sir .
Grad A: Anything else ?
Professor B: Nah .
Grad A: OK .
Professor B: Since we have nothing to talk about we only talked for an hour .
Grad A: If {disfmarker}
Professor B: So .
Grad A: yeah that 's right .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad A: Uh , well , we started late .
PhD F: Transcript
Professor B: de - ba - de . de - ba - de That 's all folks !
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Project Manager: Okay um , welcome to our detailed design meeting . I'm pretty excited . Let's start it's approximately fifteen forty or something like that . Okay um the agenda {disfmarker} we're gonna do an opening and then um I'll talk about the minutes from the last meeting , what we d discussed um , then we'll have the prototype presentation and a look at the evaluation criteria . We'll look at the finances and finally a {disfmarker} do a production evaluation and close . So , starting off with the um last {disfmarker} the last one , oh I don't have it here um , but we talked about energy , we're gonna use a kinetic battery um , we want to use a simple chip , because we're not gonna need a a shuffle um , we're gonna need a scroll um , we're choosing a latex case w in fruity colours that's curved and um we're using push buttons uh with a supplement of an on-screen menu . And it sounded like we had set um like eight or nine buttons , including five pre-set channels . Okay ? Let's do the look and feel design presentation first .
User Interface: Right , do you wanna start ?
Industrial Designer: Right , well we made three different prototypes and I guess we'll start with with this one . Um we have our colours not {disfmarker} are not fixed , but this is the general shape . Um it's {disfmarker} you hold it sort of either like like this in your left hand or you switch it over and uh it's easily adaptable to either hand . You can push the buttons with your thumb like a mobile phone , or you can push them with your index finger of your other hand , or even {disfmarker} I mean there's a whole variety , you can hold it like this and press it with your same index finger . Uh we have the on off button at the tip , very visible , very big . We have our up and down buttons , which are also gonna be our channel selectors , and we have our little menu button here . If you push {disfmarker} if you're just pushing these normally , they're the menu buttons , if {disfmarker} uh the volume buttons rather . If you press select once , they become channel changing buttons . If we press select three times , the menu with the other features and pro possibly also with your T_V_ channel choices shows up , and you have your five presets down here . Um if people wanna grab hold of that , see how it feels in your hand . That's our number one prototype . Um do you wanna present the potato ,
Project Manager: {gap} like a little lightning in it .
Industrial Designer: or shall I present the Martian ?
User Interface: Okay ,
Project Manager: The little lightning bolt in it , very cute .
User Interface: um {disfmarker} What {disfmarker} We call that one the rhombus ,
Marketing: I could {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The v the rhombus rhombus ?
User Interface: uh the rhombus .
Industrial Designer: That's the rhombus , yep .
User Interface: Um this one is known as the potato , uh it's
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: it's a {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: how can I present it ? It's an ergonomic shape , so it it fits in your hand nicely . Um it's designed to be used either in your left hand or or in your right hand . Um I've gone here just for just for four buttons on this one . Um the two blue buttons here are for adjusting the volume . So you've got volume up and volume down on the other side here . Um the red ones are for uh changing channels , channel up and channel down and that's um moves between your favourite channels that you've selected . Uh this middle button here brings up the on-screen menu and when you're working in the on-screen menu you use the other four buttons to navigate around the menu system and the middle button uh to select and that's basically it , that's the potato .
Project Manager: Um on , off ?
User Interface: Uh that would be one of your channels , basically ,
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: so like channel zero would be t to switch switch the machine off ,
Project Manager: Yeah we turn it off .
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: Could the middle button of the on-screen menu function as a power button ?
User Interface: Um not really ,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: it would make it hard to turn the machine off , to turn your T_V_ off .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: If you pressed and held it maybe .
User Interface: Yeah yeah , that that'd be one way of doing it , yeah . That'd work , yeah .
Marketing: If you like held it down , that would be on off .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . On off , that's a possibility , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And then finally we have um the Martian or the pear , either way . Um it's a bit different , just a little bit more of a creative feel . Uh you have the on off toggle stem on the top . {vocalsound} We have the five preset seeds {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And then you have on the sides to make it a little bit more three-dimensional , you have your channel changing , volume changing buttons and your menu button right here in the middle . So , that's for your consideration as well , plus it's an interesting talking point to have standing up .
User Interface: Let's pass .
Industrial Designer: We figured it could stand up like this on your table , if you wanted it to , if I made the bot the bottom flat . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh-huh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sorry , what's the yellow one in the middle ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh the menu select button . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I forgot .
Project Manager: {gap} Very interesting . {vocalsound} I think that one's my favourite .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So that's {disfmarker} So that's our three prototypes . Um basically , in terms of making decisions , what we'd need to do is first of all decide on a form uh which of the three different shapes we want , then decide what kind of button layout we want , how many buttons , and then to choose what colours we want to make the buttons and if we wanna put any text on the device , like label on the buttons or put a brand name or or a logo on it or whatever .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: We were we were thinking that normally we'd go for fruity colours , but maybe we're also thinking that your sort of middle aged man , for an example customer , might not want a fruity coloured remote , so m maybe we'd have one version that's a bit toned down ,
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
Industrial Designer: maybe with with less contrasts on it . Yeah , something still a little bright to make it hard to lose , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Would {disfmarker} Yeah , but we don't want it to look like a kids' toy {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {gap} yeah .
Project Manager: Now that was one thing that we brought up over email . I don't know if you picked up your email , but um the f the um feature that we considered for it not getting lost .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right . Well we were we were talking about that a little bit when we got that email and we think that each of these are so distinctive , that it {disfmarker} it's not just like another piece of technology around your house . It's gonna be somewhere that it can be seen .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So we're we're not thinking that it's gonna be as critical to have the loss {disfmarker}
Marketing: But if it's like under covers or like in a couch you still can't see it .
Project Manager: It's really {disfmarker} Would it be very difficult to um just have an external device that like I dunno , you tape to your to your T_V_ um that when you press it you ha a little light beep goes off ? Do you think that would be conceptually possible ?
Industrial Designer: I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think it would be difficult technologically ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: because if your if your remote's lost it's probably under the settee and in that case you can't you can't send an infrared sing signal to it to find it ,
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: s so it's {disfmarker} I'm not quite sure how it would work
Project Manager: That's true , mm 'kay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: and then I wonder if it's if it's more just a gimmick then anything else . Uh I mean ho how many times do you really , seriously lose your remote control and would would a device like that actually help you to find it ?
Industrial Designer: There might be something that you can do in the circuit board and the chip to make it make a noise or something , but it would take a lot more development than we have this afternoon .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay , that's a fair evaluation . Getting lost . Um we {disfmarker} so we do we've decided not to worry about that for now . Okay 'cause {disfmarker} well , the designs are very bright , so you're right , they're gonna stick out , but um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So d do people have a preference as far as feel and functionality ? Um .
Marketing: I feel like this is simil {vocalsound} or it's sort of what already exists so if we're trying to think of something sort of like new and fun , even though this is like what you're init I'm initially drawn to , just 'cause it's like comfortable and like not different . I sort of like this one , like I I don't know why , it just it's like small but still sort of like cute looking , I dunno . But I also like the b the side buttons on that one , like I think that's kind of neat .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: But I dunno how much any of this has to do with the fashionable , sort of cool looking thing that we also need to focus on {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Could we maybe have like an extra button on the top for on off ? So then w we wouldn't have to have like a dual function ?
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah ,
User Interface: Yeah , it's possible , yeah , yeah .
Marketing: Ah ,
Industrial Designer: that's good , that's good .
Marketing: there we go .
Industrial Designer: Here , stick it on .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Put an extra the button on {gap} {vocalsound} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Sure .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um uh why don't we do a product evaluation using your criteria , if you've developed some ?
Marketing: Well do we w {vocalsound} like I think we're supposed to have one that we do it for .
Project Manager: Oh okay . Okay .
Marketing: That was {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So where {disfmarker}
Marketing: I was a little vague on what exactly I'm supposed to do , but let me {disfmarker} I have to like write something on the whiteboard , so .
Project Manager: Okay . Do you need this
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: or just write on the white board ?
Marketing: No , I actually don't have like a PowerPointy thing ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: 'cause I think it would be redundant .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: I dunno .
Project Manager: It's kind of like uh like a joystick kind of thing ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ooh .
Project Manager: you know ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Cool .
Project Manager: kinda push it {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Hey .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Maybe a little smaller than that {gap} .
Industrial Designer: No , I kinda like it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's hard to miss .
User Interface: It makes look more fruity as well .
Project Manager: Oh it does ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it's kind of like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's like a deformed foot , I dunno . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: There it could have a stem like that , 'cause I do l kind of like the stem .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Like {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . It almost helps you ge keep a grip too , 'cause it goes in between fingers {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Interesting .
Project Manager: I like this one .
Industrial Designer: Okay ,
Project Manager: Variety of colours are nice .
Industrial Designer: is that where people are leaning then , the potato ? I like the idea of the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think I'm leaning towards the potato .
Industrial Designer: I mean that's really gotten the simplicity of the buttons down , that one .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . I am worried about like um using a menu . Um in that {disfmarker} like i withing menus there are submenus , and so how do you get back to the main menu ?
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well that {disfmarker} on the iPod , for example , you just {disfmarker} every time you wanna go back you hit the menu button again and it brings you back one level .
Project Manager: But that has a menu button separate from a select button , whereas if this one's both the menu and the select button ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Good point .
User Interface: This is , it's {disfmarker} the up and down buttons are used for scrolling up and down for a list of choices .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: You find the choice that you want and you press uh you press the right button uh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Could these be used for going to submenus
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah , so they're used for going into and out of your submenus , yeah .
Project Manager: or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Maybe {disfmarker} yeah ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: maybe it can be one of those , if you press down and hold for two seconds , then it brings you back one level or something .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay . Well , as long as we have that in mind as we're designing it still , mm 'kay .
Marketing: Okay , so which one are we sort of roughly looking at to address whether or not it meets our s um necessities , the yellowy one is that {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The potato ? Are we leaning towards the potato ?
User Interface: Potato .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think so .
Marketing: Okay , well we can obviously change it after we go through each different one .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: So basically what we need to do is some of the things that we've talked about before we need to make sure that that remote actually does conform to the things that we said it was going to .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: So what we sort of wanna do is that we each need to separately rank each of the following things and then I'll tabulate an average just to make sure that it does meet that .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: So we'll just go through them one at a time and we'll just go around and each of you can tell me on a scale of one to seven with one being really extremely true and seven being not true at all , or false , if the remote that we've created conforms to the following criteria . So we can do this one first . First we wanna know if it meets the fancy look and feel um objective . So like in my opinion the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} for now at least , the yellow one is probably somewhere in the middle so I'm gonna say it's like a three . That's just my opinion .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: What does {vocalsound} each of you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I I kind of think it's it's unique enough that I'd give it a one or a two .
Marketing: Okay , well give it a number ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: sorry {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: I will give it a one .
Industrial Designer: Um I dunno if it's it's creative . I dunno if fancy is the word I would use . I dunno if any of them are fancy in {disfmarker} I'd say two , because c unique .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: I'll go for two .
Marketing: And two , awesome . Alright , and same sort of scale for functionality , is it functional ? I think it's extremely functional , I'm gonna give it a one .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , one .
Marketing: One ?
User Interface: I think it's it's functional , it's also pretty basic , so I'll give it a two .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Um functional . I think it'll get everything done , I think it might be a little confusing at first , um , I don't know if that's gonna be a later one .
Marketing: Okay . Well there's some other ones , I will address that ,
Project Manager: Okay , then I'm gonna give it a two .
Marketing: yeah . Awesome , okay . Um we wanna know next if it's technologically innovative .
Project Manager: Did you give a functional {gap} ?
Marketing: Yeah , she said it was one .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Um is it technologically innovative ? Mm . Not really , I mean not so much , 'cause we we don't have the L_C_D_ screen , we don't have fancy chip . Other than what it looks like , I dunno if it's really {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well , the kinetic battery .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} In the battery , that's it .
Marketing: I kinetic battery is a big one , so .
Industrial Designer: How many people would notice that , though ?
Marketing: Mm . But it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But they'll notice it after like a year ,
Marketing: but we know it's there .
Project Manager: they'll be like hey , I have never changed the battery .
Marketing: And if it's made of like latex , that whole idea , that's pretty cool .
Project Manager: Mm . Just the material .
Marketing: I'll give it a three . 'Cause it {disfmarker} we could've picked a lot of features that would've made it really {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I I would say that it's {disfmarker} Yeah , like fancy versus creative it's it's different . But does that equal innovative ? I dunno . I'll give it a three .
Marketing: Alright . Everyone else ?
User Interface: I'd say it's technologically it's not it's not unique , I mean it's it's just {disfmarker} it is just pushbuttons um , so I I'd give it a four .
Project Manager: Think I'm gonna go with the four as well .
Marketing: Mm 'kay .
Project Manager: I really like that kinetic battery though .
Marketing: Next , is it easy to use ? Just so you know , easy to learn will be separate ,
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
Marketing: so don't overlap them .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: I think it's really easy to use . I'll give it a two .
Industrial Designer: Um I'll give it a one . Pretty hard to mess up .
User Interface: I'll say one .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh let's say two .
Marketing: Alright . Um we next wanna see if it has a spongy quality
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and {vocalsound} if indeed it's made of latex or rubber I {disfmarker} it's spongy all the way . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Give it a one .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: I wonder if it bounces when you drop it .
Industrial Designer: Ooh , that you couldn't {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it'd be harder to break ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: harder to lose . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: 'Cause there would be less impact maybe , {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah
Marketing: Iain , what do you give it ?
User Interface: I'd I'd give it a one .
Marketing: Alright and the next is , does it integrate some notion of fruits and vegetables {vocalsound} ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh um {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Well , is it gonna be yellow ?
Industrial Designer: It it might be , 'cause that's our corporate colour , isn't it ?
Project Manager: That's right , yeah , corporate colour , we didn't keep that in {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: um well
Industrial Designer: We might wanna keep it yellow .
Project Manager: if we {disfmarker} I know it would make it a little less c a little more confusing , but if we had all the buttons in black , and a design in {disfmarker} and the outside in yellow , that'd be our corporate one and we could also have alternative colours , one a more conservative one , one that's more fruity .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah , but if you had like a silvery kind of white or something .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um and can we have like an R_R_ inscribed on the bottom or something ?
Industrial Designer: If we had a yellow {disfmarker} Sure .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Oh , yeah .
Project Manager: Fruity , so fruity .
Industrial Designer: So {vocalsound}
Marketing: Alright , so I think it it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: it was inspired by the potato , so I think it's pretty fruity .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think i it's kind of mangoey too .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh , mango
User Interface: Mangoey is better , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: I {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: that that {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: I like mangoes {vocalsound} .
Marketing: okay , I'm giving it a one {vocalsound} the mango {gap} put me over .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: That's a much more trendy than a potato {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} What are {disfmarker} what's everyone's numbers ?
Industrial Designer: one .
User Interface: Uh two .
Project Manager: One .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Alright um , and does the design match the appropriate behaviour ? Remember earlier we discussed that people don't use a lot of buttons , that they use the channel flipping and the volume the most . I think we really took that into account a lot , so I'm gonna give it a one .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , me too .
User Interface: Uh one .
Marketing: Did you say one , Rose ?
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: Okay um , also we talked earlier about R_S_I_ and wanting to prevent um any sort of like Carpal Tunnely kind of thing . Do we think that the latex sort of grip appropriately takes that into account ? I think I'll give it a two , 'cause I almost feel like no matter what you do , something is gonna happen .
Project Manager: It's gonna be hard .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: And if it's repetitive movement it is gonna be only four buttons that you're constantly pushing , but um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um um worth the risk , I think .
Project Manager: I like how it fits in the hand though so I I'd go with a two .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I'll I'll say two as well . Because older people that aren't used to like texting with the thumb might find it a bit at first ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah I'll I'll say two .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright , awesome . And the ease of learning it . I know you were saying that you're a little bit nervous about that , I dunno . It sort of reminds me of the iPod . I just got mine , I still haven't read the instruction book and I'm doing okay , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: and I'm not good at learning technology . So I'll give it a two .
Industrial Designer: The menu system and the the fact that multiple buttons are used for different things might be a bit confusing , but I think if it's one it's one of those things that it might take you five minutes to figure out , but you'll have it afterwards .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So I'd I think I'd give it a two I guess .
User Interface: I think it it's probably a little harder then most remotes to learn , because you have to you have to use the menu system and you have to tell it what your favourite channels are
Industrial Designer: Oh , good point .
User Interface: and that could take a bit of learning at first , but
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: once you've , yeah once you'd learned how to use it , I think it is a lot easier . So I'd I'd give it a four .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: I think I'd give it a four too . It's a pretty high learning curve , it'll be easy once you've done it , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Alright , um also earlier we had something about losing it and so now we're not addressing that at all , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think we can kind of say we addressed it with colour , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay , so in terms of not losing it , do you think that on a scale of one to seven , how easy or hard is it to lose ? I'm gonna I'm gonna give it a four , 'cause I think that you can still {disfmarker} if it's in between somewhere where you can't see it , you're kind of not gonna find it ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: but anywhere else it's gonna stand out .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um I'd say I'd give it uh a three , I guess it depends on how tidy you are normally .
Project Manager: Mm I'd give it a four .
User Interface: Um I'll give it a five 'cause i it would be easy to lose something like that , yeah .
Project Manager: Small too .
Marketing: Alright , we also said simplicity , {vocalsound} how w how well does it address just being simple ?
Industrial Designer: Simple to use or simple in design ? Do you know ?
Marketing: I think overall , 'cause we had said before our two main things were simplicity and fashion ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: so those are the next two things we're gonna look at . Separate from fancy , like that sort of thing .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: Um it like wants to be simple but it's not like totally totally simple , so I'm gonna give it a two .
Industrial Designer: I'm {gap} give it a three I guess .
User Interface: I'll give it a two .
Project Manager: Three .
Marketing: Alright , and fashionable ?
Project Manager: It's totally fashionable . I'd give it a one .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's hot , I mean it's a mango , come on .
Project Manager: Mango .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I mean how fashionable can you make a remote ? I think it's bringing technology and fashion together real really well .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I dunno .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't think it's quite as fashionable as my robot remote
Project Manager: I do like uh the little Martian one . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: or alien or whatever he was .
Marketing: Yeah , the toggle on off switch , it's really appealing .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Number .
Industrial Designer: Um two .
User Interface: Three .
Project Manager: One .
Marketing: And does it meet our like demographic need sort of for international appeal , that whole thing ? Just that it would se serve our audience . I don't see why not .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . I think as long {disfmarker} if we offer in a {disfmarker} in at least three different colour arrangements . Um yeah , that's good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So I'll give it a a two {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I'll say two .
Marketing: Alright , did anyone have any other features that they think were important that we didn't talk about ?
Project Manager: Well um we didn't we didn't address the fact that it does need to b have a corporate logo , so let's let's make sure we keep that in mind that we ha that one of our colours concepts is corporate and has an R_R_ on it .
Industrial Designer: Shall we uh {disfmarker} Well I think all of them should have an R_R_ .
Project Manager: All of them should have R_R_ , yeah .
Marketing: And so we're gonna do that , so it will address it ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm 'kay .
Marketing: fine . Okay .
Project Manager: Lovely .
Marketing: That's me .
Project Manager: Okay , now we're gonna look at finances . Um I have an Excel sheet that we're actually gonna calculate the cost um , so let me exit out of this first . Okay um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh my . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Whoa .
Project Manager: I know . Let me {gap} one more space . Gonna zoom in real quick . {gap} Okay . Hand dynamo . We're using kinetic battery ,
Industrial Designer: Uh we're n using kinetic , yeah .
Project Manager: right ? Um and we're having one per {disfmarker} One , okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um electronics .
Industrial Designer: Single .
Project Manager: Simple .
Industrial Designer: Simple , simple rather .
Marketing: Simple .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay . Um the case .
Industrial Designer: Uh uh uh double-curved .
User Interface: Guess it's double-curved . It is pretty curvy .
Project Manager: It's very curvy ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: so okay . {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah I never did get a picture of those so I don't really know . Our case material supplements {disfmarker} oops , we just skipped by them .
Marketing: Well don't we need plastic , and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No , we we {disfmarker} the plastic is the plastic for the inside is assumed . The supplement is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Provided , okay .
Project Manager: The wood ?
Industrial Designer: Oh , I guess it was rubber rather than latex .
Project Manager: I mean the rubber .
Marketing: It was rubber and special colour , right ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , okay .
Marketing: Do we have more than one special colour ?
Project Manager: Yeah , we're using {disfmarker} we're gonna need at least two special colours .
Industrial Designer: Uh well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Special colours , isn't it ?
Project Manager: Um .
Industrial Designer: I don't know what the se the basic colour is though .
Marketing: Per {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I dunno where it {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: Well , but we know that we're having at least three colours ,
Project Manager: So let's y say three .
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well , are we talking about on each colour combination or are we , you know , we'll {disfmarker} like we'll have yellow and black . Is that two special colours ?
Project Manager: Yeah , I dunno . That I thi
Industrial Designer: Or or is white and black , then two more or {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I thought that would be under yours .
Industrial Designer: Uh . I guess it's three ,
Project Manager: We'll just say three .
Industrial Designer: three three {gap} .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Maybe the R_R_ will be in colour as well ,
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: so yeah . Interface , we're doing push buttons . And how many buttons do we have ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: We have six .
User Interface: We've got five {gap} .
Project Manager: Six .
Industrial Designer: Six , with the power .
User Interface: Oh {gap}
Marketing: Oh
User Interface: six .
Marketing: no , five . {gap}
Project Manager: Anything else ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . No . Oh , we'll {disfmarker} do we wa Are the buttons in special colour , special f I didn't get information on {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh ,
Marketing: Oh wait .
Project Manager: buttons {disfmarker} oh , so um . So the case material will just have one colour , right ,
Industrial Designer: Well ,
Project Manager: but then the buttons will be in special colours ?
Industrial Designer: does it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but if we're making multiple varieties of {disfmarker} this is where I'm getting confused .
Project Manager: We're saying per unit .
Industrial Designer: {gap} per unit , okay , okay .
Marketing: Yeah , per unit .
Project Manager: Okay , so each unit will only have one colour on their {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Alright , and each button s
Project Manager: but the case is {disfmarker} could have up to thr I mean the buttons could ea could be up to three colours , 'cause that how it's designed there .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I like it like that .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , okay .
Project Manager: Special form ? They're all kind of just push button ,
Industrial Designer: No ,
Project Manager: right ?
Industrial Designer: I think they're fine .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Special material ?
Industrial Designer: Material , we want them rubber as well probably , yeah .
Project Manager: Uh . Oh do {disfmarker} I have to do it per button , do I ?
Industrial Designer: No , I don't think so . I think they're {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: if they're all gonna be rubber then it {disfmarker} that's what it matters .
Marketing: Yeah , 'cause it wouldn't make sense otherwise ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: 'cause for the whole mat case material it's only one .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: It's {disfmarker} I mean it's two to make it rubber .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Oh wait , so maybe .
Project Manager: Thirteen point seven .
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Oh oh .
Project Manager: Yeah , what can we reduce ?
Industrial Designer: Okay , let's have our buttons all be one colour .
Marketing: Mm , I kind of like the buttons .
Project Manager: Let's see what that would do . It's only gonna bring us down to thirteen point three anyway .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Alright .
Project Manager: Okay um , are we sure this is double-curved ?
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: Maybe it's single-curved ,
Industrial Designer: We have no idea .
Project Manager: we have no idea .
Industrial Designer: I dunno , I didn't get any pictures . {vocalsound} It's single curved .
Marketing: It's single curved .
Industrial Designer: Why not ?
Project Manager: Well it's not the {disfmarker} yeah . Okay , it's the kinetic battery that's kind of expensive , but we have a simple chip , single curve ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: case material is rubber and it's a special colour ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: but that's important . Six buttons {disfmarker} we have to have six buttons .
Industrial Designer: That is important . How did it get more expensive , what did you just change ?
Project Manager: What ?
Industrial Designer: It was it was thirteen and now it's fifteen .
Project Manager: No , okay , maybe not . I don't know what just happened . Now it's twelve .
Marketing: We
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: What was our target price again ?
Project Manager: Twelve point five .
Industrial Designer: Twelve point five . Hey hey .
User Interface: Twelve point five . So we're just just about there .
Project Manager: So we're okay , I think .
Industrial Designer: We're all set then .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Ish .
Project Manager: Okay , we're all set .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: Um save . I saved that to our um our big shared folder , so you know . Um okay , back to agenda . {vocalsound} Um are the {disfmarker} are the costs under twelve fifty Euro ? Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , they are .
Project Manager: Let's move on to the project evaluation . Project process . Satisfaction with for example the room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , the means , any new ideas found . So I guess what we're gonna talk about here is just evaluating how we created this project , the information we got on the news , how we used it , if we were able to um , you know , use our creativity with the information , um how how well I guess I led it , um the {disfmarker} how well we worked together as a team , um the digital pens , the whiteboard .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Well . I felt very creative . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think we've been successful
Industrial Designer: I enjoyed making the prototypes .
User Interface: in that we've achieved almost all of the design goals that we've set {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: and we've come up with a finished project and we just about got {gap} cost .
Industrial Designer: I think we could've done even better with a little bit more information ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: like what's a single-curved case , how many colours , what do colours count
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: things , but given given what we had I think that we did we did really well . Um I think we worked together pretty well .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , I mean {vocalsound} if I'd had more market research on the {gap} fruits and vegetables , maybe we could've taken that into account .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah {gap} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But the fruits and vegetables , they really {gap} my creativity , so .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I know , I really did , the the whole mango idea was great .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Do you think we could {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No , I mean I thought the pen was a little distracting for me personally , like its heaviness , and like just being so conscious of like turning the pages , I dunno . That was a bit of a distraction .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: That was the last one , like I chose not to do a PowerPoint 'cause I didn't think it made sense to , so I liked that I had the option to do that and just to take my own notes and that whole sort of thing .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . I think we all made um very significant contributions ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't think anybody dominated it , which I thought was really good , like each of us was able to um like each of you had your information and I uh I tried to facilitate it without like taking over , um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: I like our little finished products .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Can we market this as the mango remote ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} They're funny .
Project Manager: Really cute .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I kind of want one .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Should we have that somewhere on the packaging ? I have a little R_R_ .
Marketing: I'm trying to think of a good pun that I could add there {gap} .
Project Manager: I know ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: let's think of it like a little jingle .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I like the R_R_ , that's gonna be etched in .
Industrial Designer: Yes . Hopefully not with just my fingernail at some point but um it's quite a useful little gadget . All thanks to Iain for the design of that one .
Project Manager: {gap} . Okay um
Industrial Designer: Mm . What did we find for new ideas ?
Project Manager: new ideas found ?
Industrial Designer: People should really base their remotes on fruits and vegetables .
Project Manager: Definitely . Or or at least be c p creative enough to think of toggle switches mm
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: etcetera .
Industrial Designer: I I am really into the idea of kinetic batteries now after reading about them .
Project Manager: Oh , I'm so excited .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That was {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , I didn't even know they existed .
Industrial Designer: I I knew you can get watches that had them , like really quite expensive watches that just never need a battery , 'cause you're always moving your wrist .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: But in other things , I think it'd be really good .
Project Manager: I thi yeah , that's awesome . Um okay , closing . Are the costs within the budget ? Is the project evaluated ?
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Now there's the final questionnaire and meeting summary . Um so , this is the great product kids , I think we've created something really interesting and that we have a market for it , um especially if we can produce it at twelve point three
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: which we hope um {disfmarker} yeah . Make sure in your questionnaire to put down criticisms of both the process and the um the final results and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , Real Reaction .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I do like the Martian remote .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: If we could choose more than one , that would be my second choice .
Marketing: Oh , that would definitely be my second choice .
Project Manager: Although the tog toggle
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm afraid I would {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's cool . Let's all let's all go for the yellow {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: I would break it . {vocalsound} I would break it .
Project Manager: It's cool . I think I would break it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It started because I wanted to have it as st as a stem
User Interface: Break the stem off .
Industrial Designer: and then {vocalsound} {disfmarker} alright , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh that's funny {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Is {disfmarker} it started as a pear , but then it started looking more and more like a Martian
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh
Industrial Designer: when I put the {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Kind of looks like a penguin , like {vocalsound} with no eye {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Take me to your leader . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah , it's kind of a penguin .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: I like that it stands up .
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
Industrial Designer: Wow , maybe I should market it to some remote control company now .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So are are {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} That was bound to happen.$
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh , sad .
Industrial Designer: poor little thing . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm 'kay , congratulations . Um . Anything else to say ?
Marketing: Nothing will come up until after our meeting's supposed to be over ,
Project Manager: Alright .
Marketing: its all timed .
Project Manager: Um anybody have {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Marketing: Oh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I got more master classes , anybody else wanna like take a master's class ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's really funny that you got spam in your work emails .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , but check it out . So like there are all these like links , they don't go anywhere .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But all that you need to keep in mind your {gap} knowledge management . Um just wanna make sure you do .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} No the first one that you sent like I didn't realise that it was a joke and I was like why did she send this to us ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's very it's very work relevant ,
Project Manager: It is .
Marketing: 'cause people send spam a lot .
Project Manager: Yes definitely {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Let's see ,
Project Manager: I'm very sad that I didn't get any links to the corporate website . {gap} .
Marketing: Oh here you can you can view .
Industrial Designer: what did I get through the corporate website ? It's just inspiration about circuit boards .
Marketing: You can just see what's up .
Project Manager: Wow .
Marketing: Yeah it's it's really deep . Hold on . Takes a little while to get excited to load . That {disfmarker} the Excel thing is pretty cool .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that is pretty neat .
Project Manager: I love Excel ,
Marketing: Here , like , basically
Project Manager: it's one of my favourite programs .
Marketing: it's like inspiration , basically I'm gonna give you two sentences on fashion and that kind of thing , see . You didn't miss out that much .
Project Manager: I see , mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , my inspiration from from last time is the in interior of a remote control being taken apart bit by bit , talking about circuit boards .
Project Manager: Spongy .
Industrial Designer: I learned a lot actually .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: I could probably take apart a remote control now if I really needed to .
Marketing: Oh wow . This one was cooler . I got a whole table and everything .
Industrial Designer: Now I have all about circuits and chips and transponders and {disfmarker} I wrote it all down , because I thought it would be relevant , like all the different parts of the inside of a remote control , but then they're like , you don't actually need this {disfmarker} you just need to talk about the case .
Marketing: That's like mine it was like , would you prefer an L_C_D_ screen or a multifunction remote control ? And then it didn't have like any kind of table , like awesome , I'm glad they asked that question and didn't report the result {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: I I thought it was a little tricky having to hand around this thing .
Industrial Designer: It's really interesting though . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: We had a lot of the um {disfmarker} otherwise the technology {gap} today was kinda cool .
User Interface: I think . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: That was really neat how I got emails
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker}
User Interface: We didn't we didn't use the whiteboard that much .
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: Although I don't see how we could have very l at least for me
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} yeah . If I'd gotten pictures of the different parts of the case , the different looks of the case , I would have probably drawn them up ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: 'Cause we weren't like voting on anything and I think usually , like whiteboards are good , you know like crossing out ideas , or like if we had had like a brainstorming period .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we could've put our brainstorming stuff up there rather than just talking about it ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: but with only four people it doesn't really make sense .
Marketing: But I thought we were good orally .
Project Manager: And with and with the PowerPoint that we can all look at , like you can do all those things pretty much on PowerPoint
Industrial Designer: I think if you had a larger group {disfmarker}
Marketing: Get crazy .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: as that's not as necessary to have .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: And these might've made us more willing to like take notes than to like write up them here ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: 'cause we all needed them separately , kind of on the whiteboards in this room .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Because we're all gonna be working in different places .
Marketing: {gap} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We {disfmarker} if we were all gonna stay in here all the time , then having the notes up on the whiteboard would've been alright ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: but everyone needs their own , like specific notes , I guess .
Project Manager: Now when you were um creating your um prototypes here , did you work together or did you like do separate projects ?
User Interface: Uh we we worked together ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: um but we were making like we sort of made different shapes and then discussed how the how the buttons might work ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: um and how we could like improve on the on the design .
Industrial Designer: So it was a bit of both really , we just kind of started out by each taking a colour of clay and just fooling around with it and I came up with that rhombus shape
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and he came up with the sort of potatoey , mangoey shape , and then just went from there really .
Project Manager: Cool .
Industrial Designer: It was fun . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So well done with the management , I felt well managed .
Project Manager: Oh thanks .
User Interface: I think we did well in first of all giving our meetings the time ,
Project Manager: It's kinda fun .
User Interface: and second we actually we we did a good job of making firm decisions at the ends of the meetings .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: And I {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sorry . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That happened to me all the time though .
User Interface: I know what happens sometimes is that you tend to sort of have meetings and then people sorta drift away without anything actually really being decided .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: But I think here we got we got clear and and decisive decisive points {gap} at the end of the meetings , so that we we knew where to go on from there .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I was quite worried at the end of the last meeting that we weren't getting {disfmarker} we didn't really have enough information to make firm decisions ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: but we were able to do it regardless , so . I'm not usually a very decisive person , so it helped to have people say this needs to be done in five minutes .
Project Manager: This is what we'll do .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I found that we did {disfmarker} we could have used another five or ten minutes sometimes in the meetings .
Industrial Designer: Especially last time ,
User Interface: Yeah , for some of the meetings , yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah I think the last time we had a lot of information , but at the same time not quite enough ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: you know what I mean ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: like we we couldn't answer every single question .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Right . And I I felt the first two meetings , that I was coming in with no information ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: and not sort of made me really like , ooh I don't know {vocalsound} , throwing together PowerPoint out of no no information and then last time it was like the opposite . I had so much information and so much to talk about .
Project Manager: It was interesting what came out like later , like as I was doing the {disfmarker} when I was doing the breakdown on the agenda that they gave me um , that more points came out from your presentation even .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Mm .
Project Manager: Um . I'm a little {disfmarker} I am a little disappointed that we didn't do a {disfmarker} um something for losing the remote , because that was kind of a big point .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {gap} that was something like {disfmarker} in order to talk about that we would've had to have actual knowledge about circuit boards and {vocalsound} things like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: About {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Well the problem was , even when we just were creating from the Excel file , there wasn't like a option to select to somehow have it included ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: so there was no {disfmarker} we could be like yeah , it has it included .
Industrial Designer: I think we were {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: There was no way for us to have
Project Manager: Considered the re
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: written down that it was really there .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think we were just getting overenthusiastic with the task {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Well
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it's interesting that they {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think we really got into it , I mean I got into it as the day went on and I got really like , ooh I'm designing a remote control , I dunno if that's just me ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , yeah {gap} .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It was interesting though that they put that fifty percent of people say they have frustration with losing their remote and yet they didn't provide us with information to um {disfmarker} we weren't provided with information to discuss that .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I know that like people people have like things they can put on their keys that you press it and it'll beep , but I but I'm sure that would require some kind of technology
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: that {disfmarker} I just don't know what it is , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think there are some of those like infomercial remotes that have things so you won't lose them .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: I dunno . I mean we were talking about it and like i in my household at least , there's only about two places that the remote is ever
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: 'cause there's only one T_V_ and there's only like three chairs .
Marketing: That's like saying you're never gonna lose your keys , and I always do , anyway . You'll lose 'em in your pocket ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: like you just will forget that {disfmarker} or you like put it down somewhere that like made sense and then not remember ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: there's always ways to lose things .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: It d yeah , it depends on how organised you are personally , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , or like I guess what the setup of the house is too .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: But , I mean {disfmarker} I am notorious for losing my keys ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I just {disfmarker} I guess I've just never lost the remote . I put my keys in the refrigerator the other night {vocalsound} and couldn't find them .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: 'Cause I was putting groceries away .
Marketing: That's funny .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh .
Industrial Designer: You you're taking stuff from a bag and putting them in the refrigerator and then go back to my room .
Project Manager: Can't get in . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Can't get in , look all around the kitchen . Definitely in the vegetable drawer .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's funny .
Industrial Designer: So {vocalsound} .
Marketing: I always do that , leaving it in my coat , and then like using a different coat .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: But I guess it's 'cause we don't carry remotes around that much .
Marketing: Yeah . Can't really take it into the other room .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Maybe with our little robot one we could've had him have a {disfmarker} robot , alien , pear , whatever he is , have a little voice like , I am located {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh a G_P_S_ system , {vocalsound} internal G_P_S_ .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh man . Here you go .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We should make one that walks by itself . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Although if it's sitting still for too long . {vocalsound} Yes I {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That really could get up and walk away {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Or or like some crazy like electro-magnet , that you push it and it'll go zoom to the T_V_ and stick there . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} Or little {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Or just just a wheel , you know .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Just if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} like you'd have a remote for your remote , that'll {gap} . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Well , but if you could attach them to the T_V_ , then you can {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {gap} zoom {disfmarker} Yeah . Hmm . All kinds of possibilities .
Project Manager: Mm . Okay . Sorry , I'm just um trying to update my minutes . I decided to {disfmarker} you know how I sent you the email saying that PowerPoint minutes will be complimentary , rather than like repeating them .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Just gonna make {disfmarker} I'm making full minutes , so that it'll include all of the agenda and all that .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Project Manager: 'Cause that seems a little more useful .
Industrial Designer: Wow . 'Cause you've had like the most typing and organising to do .
Project Manager: But I didn't have like information to sloth through either , so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I guess {disfmarker} How much of your PowerPoint was already done for you , every meeting .
Project Manager: Most of it , mm-hmm . I added slides , um I added a couple slides each time ,
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Project Manager: but that was about it .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Yeah , I didn't even think about adding slides , 'cause I would just get slides with titles on them
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: and fill them all in w didn't even think about adding more .
Project Manager: Well , the thing was they would provide y an agenda with s like several points , but it wouldn't have a slide for each point . And that's the only way I remember that I need to go other that point .
Industrial Designer: Ah yeah. .
Project Manager: {gap} I know personally when I do PowerPoint , that's what I do and so {disfmarker} I had it once , even if it was just like the title of it , like the three presentations , and I would do your three .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: You have you have to have the slogan on it or can it just be like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The slogan on it ?
Industrial Designer: No , no , definitely not .
Project Manager: No no no .
Marketing: Okay good .
Industrial Designer: We {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} 'Cause I was like , it could go around the outside . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No , I don't think we need to {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think we just need the um the R_R_ ,
Industrial Designer: I think the R_ and R_ , especially if the yellow and black one .
Project Manager: yeah .
Marketing: Is it yellow and blue ?
Industrial Designer: Or yellow and blue . Lemme go to the web page .
Project Manager: Yeah , I was just kinda going by the web page , 'cause they didn't give me any clear , like yellow , grey , or {gap} .
Marketing: Oh I guess it is black , grey . Grey is better than black , doesn't look so bumblebeeish .
Project Manager: I don't really like yellow in general .
Marketing: Hey now I understand the random like newsclippings .
Project Manager: But it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Finish meeting now . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Wasn't it interesting that um {disfmarker} I thought it was interesting that our market marketing um expert did not agree with the marketing um
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes .
Project Manager: the marketing choices ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you know , like
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I will
Project Manager: {vocalsound} that was a bit of a conflict .
Marketing: I just feel like if you're really doing like a a really big market evaluation , you wouldn't just have like one set of source ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: it's kind of an {disfmarker} they were so not backed up , it would just be a sentence {gap} like we did a survey , this is what people said .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: S mm , I dunno .
Project Manager: People are stupid .
Industrial Designer: I guess it i it sort of a grey , isn't it ? Yellow and grey , but then the slogan's in blue .
Marketing: Well we got some grey and we got some blue buttons , we're good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Well we don't have the right colour clay anyway .
Project Manager: Maybe , like {disfmarker} I don't know . {gap} That could always be {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Well we're not , sadly , going to actually be producing this , so {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Oh .
Marketing: If they ever come out with potato {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Potato mango shaped remotes .
Marketing: I'm gonna have to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I'm claiming it intellectual property .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I can't believe a whole day is gone . I don't feel like it's been that long .
Marketing: I know .
Industrial Designer: Get sucked in . Mm I haven't gotten questionnaire eight yet .
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doc_52
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Grad B: So I guess this is more or less now just to get you up to date , Johno . This is what , uh ,
Grad C: This is a meeting for me .
Grad B: um , Eva , Bhaskara , and I did .
Grad D: Did you add more stuff to it ? {pause} later ?
Grad B: Um . Why ?
Grad D: Um . I don't know . There were , like , the {disfmarker} you know , @ @ and all that stuff . But . I thought you {disfmarker} you said you were adding stuff
Grad B: Uh , no .
Grad D: but {pause} I don't know .
Grad B: This is {disfmarker} Um , Ha ! Very nice . Um , so we thought that , {vocalsound} We can write up uh , an element , and {disfmarker} for each of the situation nodes that we observed in the Bayes - net ? So . What 's the situation like at the entity that is mentioned ? if we know anything about it ? Is it under construction ? Or is it on fire or something {pause} happening to it ? Or is it stable ? and so forth , going all the way um , f through Parking , Location , Hotel , Car , Restroom , @ @ {comment} Riots , Fairs , Strikes , or Disasters .
Grad C: So is {disfmarker} This is {disfmarker} A situation are {disfmarker} is all the things which can be happening right now ? Or , what is the situation type ?
Grad B: That 's basically {pause} just specifying the {disfmarker} the input for the {disfmarker} w what 's
Grad C: Oh , I see y Why are you specifying it in XML ?
Grad B: Um . Just because it forces us to be specific about the values {pause} here ?
Grad C: OK .
Grad B: And , also , I mean , this is a {disfmarker} what the input is going to be . Right ? So , we will , uh {disfmarker} This is a schema . This is {disfmarker}
Grad C: Well , yeah . I just don't know if this is th l what the {disfmarker} Does {disfmarker} This is what Java Bayes takes ? as a Bayes - net spec ?
Grad B: No , because I mean if we {disfmarker} I mean we 're sure gonna interface to {disfmarker} We 're gonna get an XML document from somewhere . Right ? And that XML document will say " We are able to {disfmarker} We were able to observe that w the element , um , @ @ {comment} of the Location that the car is near . " So that 's gonna be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {comment} Um .
Grad C: So this is the situational context , everything in it . Is that what Situation is short for , shi situational context ?
Grad B: Yep .
Grad C: OK .
Grad B: So this is just , again , a an XML schemata which defines a set of possible , uh , permissible XML structures , which we view as input into the Bayes - net . Right ?
Grad C: And then we can r {pause} uh possibly run one of them uh transformations ? That put it into the format that the Bayes n or Java Bayes or whatever wants ?
Grad B: Yea - Are you talking {disfmarker} are you talking about the {disfmarker} the structure ?
Grad C: Well it {disfmarker}
Grad B: I mean when you observe a node .
Grad C: When you {disfmarker} when you say {pause} the input to the {pause} v Java Bayes , {comment} it takes a certain format ,
Grad B: Um - hmm .
Grad C: right ? Which I don't think is this . Although I don't know .
Grad B: No , it 's certainly not this . Nuh .
Grad C: So you could just {disfmarker} Couldn't you just run a {disfmarker}
Grad B: XSL . {comment} Yeah .
Grad C: Yeah . To convert it into the Java Bayes for format ?
Grad B: Yep .
Grad C: OK .
Grad B: That 's {disfmarker} That 's no problem , but I even think that , um {disfmarker} I mean , once {disfmarker} Once you have this sort of as {disfmarker} running as a module {disfmarker} Right ? What you want is {disfmarker} You wanna say , " OK , give me the posterior probabilities of the Go - there {pause} node , when this is happening . " Right ? When the person said this , the car is there , it 's raining , and this is happening . And with this you can specify the {disfmarker} what 's happening in the situation , and what 's happening with the user . So we get {disfmarker} After we are done , through the Situation we get the User Vector . So , this is a {disfmarker}
Grad C: So this is just a specification of all the possible inputs ?
Grad B: Yep . And , all the possible outputs , too . So , we have , um , for example , the , uh , Go - there decision node
Grad C: OK .
Grad B: which has two elements , going - there and its posterior probability , and not - going - there and its posterior probability , because the output is always gonna be all the decision nodes and all the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} a all the posterior probabilities for all the values .
Grad C: And then we would just look at the , eh , Struct that we wanna look at in terms of if {disfmarker} if we 're only asking about one of the {disfmarker} So like , if I 'm just interested in the going - there node , I would just pull that information out of the Struct that gets return that would {disfmarker} that Java Bayes would output ?
Grad B: Um , pretty much , yes , but I think it 's a little bit more complex . As , if I understand it correctly , it always gives you all the posterior probabilities for all the values of all decision nodes . So , when we input something , we always get the , uh , posterior probabilities for all of these . Right ?
Grad C: OK .
Grad B: So there is no way of telling it t not to tell us about the EVA {pause} values .
Grad C: Yeah , wait I agree , that 's {disfmarker} yeah , use {disfmarker} oh , uh {pause} Yeah , OK .
Grad B: So {disfmarker} so we get this whole list of {disfmarker} of , um , things , and the question is what to do with it , what to hand on , how to interpret it , in a sense . So y you said if you {disfmarker} " I 'm only interested in whether he wants to go there or not " , then I just look at that node , look which one {disfmarker}
Grad C: Look at that Struct in the output ,
Grad B: Yep .
Grad C: right ?
Grad B: Look at that Struct in the {disfmarker} the output , even though I wouldn't call it a " Struct " . But .
Grad C: Well i well , it 's an XML Structure that 's being res returned ,
Grad B: Oh . Mm - hmm .
Grad C: right ?
Grad B: So every part of a structure is a " Struct " . Yeah .
Grad C: Yeah , I just uh {disfmarker} I just was {disfmarker} abbreviated it to Struct in my head , and started going with that .
Grad B: That element or object , I would say .
Grad C: Not a C Struct . That 's not what I was trying to k
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad C: though yeah .
Grad B: OK . And , um , the reason is {disfmarker} why I think it 's a little bit more complex or why {disfmarker} why we can even think about it as an interesting problem in and of itself is {disfmarker} Um . So . The , uh {disfmarker} Let 's look at an example .
Grad C: Well , w wouldn't we just take the structure that 's outputted and then run another transformation on it , that would just dump the one that we wanted out ?
Grad B: Yeah . w We 'd need to prune . Right ? Throw things away .
Grad C: Well , actually , you don't even need to do that with XML .
Grad B: No
Grad C: D Can't you just look at one specific {disfmarker}
Grad B: Yeah , exactly . The {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Xerxes allows you to say , u " Just give me the value of that , and that , and that . " But , we don't really know what we 're interested in {pause} before we look at the complete {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} at the overall result . So the person said , um , " Where is X ? " and so , we want to know , um , is {disfmarker} Does he want info ? o on this ? or know the location ? Or does he want to go there ? Let 's assume this is our {disfmarker} our question .
Grad C: Sure .
Grad B: Nuh ? So . Um . Do this in Perl . So we get {disfmarker} OK . Let 's assume this is the output . So . We should con be able to conclude from that that {disfmarker} I mean . It 's always gonna give us a value of how likely we think i it is that he wants to go there and doesn't want to go there , or how likely it is that he wants to get information . But , maybe w we should just reverse this to make it a little bit more delicate . So , does he wanna know where it is ? or does he wanna go there ?
Grad C: He wants to know where it is .
Grad B: Right . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I tend to agree . And if it 's {disfmarker} If {disfmarker}
Grad C: Well now , y I mean , you could {disfmarker}
Grad B: And i if there 's sort of a clear winner here , and , um {disfmarker} and this is pretty , uh {disfmarker} indifferent , then we {disfmarker} then we might conclude that he actually wants to just know where , uh t uh , he does want to go there .
Grad C: Uh , out of curiosity , is there a reason why we wouldn't combine these three nodes ? into one smaller subnet ? that would just basically be {pause} the question for {disfmarker} We have " where is X ? " is the question , right ? That would just be Info - on or Location ? Based upon {disfmarker}
Grad B: Or Go - there . A lot of people ask that , if they actually just wanna go there . People come up to you on campus and say , " Where 's the library ? " You 're gonna say {disfmarker} y you 're gonna say , g " Go down that way . " You 're not gonna say " It 's {disfmarker} It 's five hundred yards away from you " or " It 's north of you " , or {disfmarker} " it 's located {disfmarker} "
Grad C: Well , I mean {disfmarker} But the {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} So you just have three decisions for the final node , that would link thes these three nodes in the net together .
Grad B: Um . I don't know whether I understand what you mean . But . Again , in this {disfmarker} Given this input , we , also in some situations , may wanna postulate an opinion whether that person wants to go there now the nicest way , use a cab , or so s wants to know it {disfmarker} wants to know where it is because he wants something fixed there , because he wants to visit t it or whatever . So , it {disfmarker} n I mean {disfmarker} a All I 'm saying is , whatever our input is , we 're always gonna get the full output . And some {disfmarker} some things will always be sort of too {disfmarker} not significant enough .
Grad C: Wha Or i or i it 'll be tight . You won't {disfmarker} it 'll be hard to decide .
Grad B: Yep .
Grad C: But I mean , I guess {disfmarker} I guess the thing is , uh , this is another , smaller , case of reasoning in the case of an uncertainty , which makes me think Bayes - net should be the way to solve these things . So if you had {disfmarker} If for every construction ,
Grad B: Oh !
Grad C: right ? you could say , " Well , there {disfmarker} Here 's the Where - Is construction . " And for the Where - Is construction , we know we need to l look at this node , that merges these three things together
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: as for th to decide the response . And since we have a finite number of constructions that we can deal with , we could have a finite number of nodes .
Grad B: OK . Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Say , if we had to y deal with arbitrary language , it wouldn't make any sense to do that , because there 'd be no way to generate the nodes for every possible sentence .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: But since we can only deal with a finite amount of stuff {disfmarker}
Grad B: So , basically , the idea is to f to feed the output of that belief - net into another belief - net .
Grad C: Yeah , so basically take these three things and then put them into another belief - net .
Grad B: But , why {disfmarker} why {disfmarker} why only those three ? Why not the whol
Grad C: Well , I mean , d For the Where - Is question . So we 'd have a node for the Where - Is question .
Grad B: Yeah . But we believe that all the decision nodes are {disfmarker} can be relevant for the Where - Is , and the Where {disfmarker} How - do - I - get - to or the Tell - me - something - about .
Grad C: You can come in if you want .
Grad B: Yes , it is allowed .
Grad C: As long as y you 're not wearing your h your h headphones . Well , I do I {disfmarker} See , I don't know if this is a {pause} good idea or not . I 'm just throwing it out . But uh , it seems like we could have {disfmarker} I mea or uh we could put all of the all of the r information that could also be relevant {pause} into the Where - Is node answer
Grad B: Mm - hmm . Yep .
Grad C: node thing stuff . And uh {disfmarker}
Grad D: OK .
Grad B: I mean {disfmarker} Let 's not forget we 're gonna get some very strong {pause} input from {pause} these sub dis from these discourse things , right ? So . " Tell me the location of X . " Nuh ? Or " Where is X located at ? "
Grad C: We u
Grad B: Nuh ?
Grad C: Yeah , I know , but the Bayes - net would be able to {disfmarker} The weights on the {disfmarker} on the nodes in the Bayes - net would be able to do all that ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: wouldn't it ? Here 's a k Oh ! Oh , I 'll wait until you 're {pause} plugged in . Oh , don't sit there . Sit here . You know how you don't like that one . It 's OK . That 's the weird one . That 's the one that 's painful . That hurts . It hurts so bad . I 'm h I 'm happy that they 're recording that . That headphone . The headphone {pause} that you have to put on backwards , with the little {disfmarker} little thing {disfmarker} and the little {disfmarker} little foam block on it ? It 's a painful , painful microphone .
Grad B: I think it 's th called " the Crown " .
Grad C: The crown ?
Grad D: What ?
Grad B: Yeah , versus " the Sony " .
Grad A: The Crown ? Is that the actual name ? OK .
Grad B: Mm - hmm . The manufacturer .
Grad C: I don't see a manufacturer on it .
Grad B: You w
Grad C: Oh , wait , here it is . h This thingy . Yeah , it 's " The Crown " . The crown of pain !
Grad A: Yes .
Grad B: You 're on - line ?
Grad C: Are you {disfmarker} are your mike o Is your mike on ?
Grad A: Indeed .
Grad C: OK . So you 've been working with these guys ? You know what 's going on ?
Grad A: Yes , I have . And , I do . Yeah , alright . s So where are we ?
Grad C: Excellent !
Grad B: We 're discussing this .
Grad A: I don't think it can handle French , but anyway .
Grad B: So . Assume we have something coming in . A person says , " Where is X ? " , and we get a certain {disfmarker} We have a Situation vector and a User vector and everything is fine ? An - an and {disfmarker} and our {disfmarker} and our {disfmarker}
Grad C: Did you just sti Did you just stick the m the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the microphone actually in the tea ?
Grad A: No .
Grad B: And , um ,
Grad A: I 'm not drinking tea . What are you talking about ?
Grad C: Oh , yeah . Sorry .
Grad B: let 's just assume our Bayes - net just has three decision nodes for the time being . These three , he wants to know something about it , he wants to know where it is , he wants to go there .
Grad C: In terms of , these would be wha how we would answer the question Where - Is , right ? We u This is {disfmarker} i That 's what you s it seemed like , explained it to me earlier
Grad B: Yeah , but , mmm .
Grad C: w We {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we wanna know how to answer the question " Where is X ? "
Grad B: Yeah . No , I can {disfmarker} I can do the Timing node in here , too , and say " OK . "
Grad C: Well , yeah , but in the s uh , let 's just deal with the s the simple case of we 're not worrying about timing or anything . We just want to know how we should answer " Where is X ? "
Grad B: OK . And , um , OK , and , Go - there has two values , right ? , Go - there and not - Go - there . Let 's assume those are the posterior probabilities of that .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: Info - on has True or False and Location . So , he wants to know something about it , and he wants to know something {disfmarker} he wants to know Where - it - is ,
Grad A: Excuse me .
Grad B: has these values . And , um ,
Grad C: Oh , I see why we can't do that .
Grad B: And , um , in this case we would probably all agree that he wants to go there . Our belief - net thinks he wants to go there ,
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: right ?
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: In the , uh , whatever , if we have something like this here , and this like that and maybe here also some {disfmarker}
Grad A: You should probably {comment} make them out of {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad B: something like that ,
Grad C: Well , it
Grad B: then we would guess , " Aha ! He , our belief - net , {comment} has s stronger beliefs that he wants to know where it is , than actually wants to go {pause} there . " Right ?
Grad C: That it {disfmarker} Doesn't this assume , though , that they 're evenly weighted ?
Grad D: True .
Grad C: Like {disfmarker} I guess they are evenly weighted .
Grad A: The different decision nodes , you mean ?
Grad C: Yeah , the Go - there , the Info - on , and the Location ?
Grad A: Well , d yeah , this is making the assumption . Yes .
Grad C: Like {disfmarker}
Grad B: What do you mean by " differently weighted " ? They don't feed into anything really anymore .
Grad A: But I mean , why do we {disfmarker}
Grad C: Or I jus
Grad A: If we trusted the Go - there node more th much more than we trusted the other ones , then we would conclude , even in this situation , that he wanted to go there .
Grad C: Le
Grad A: So , in that sense , we weight them equally right now .
Grad B: OK . Makes sense . Yeah . But {disfmarker}
Grad C: So the But I guess the k the question {disfmarker} that I was as er wondering or maybe Robert was proposing to me is {disfmarker} How do we d make the decision on {disfmarker} as to {disfmarker} which one to listen to ?
Grad A: Yeah , so , the final d decision is the combination of these three . So again , it 's {disfmarker} it 's some kind of , uh {disfmarker}
Grad C: Bayes - net .
Grad A: Yeah , sure .
Grad C: OK so , then , the question i So then my question is t to you then , would be {disfmarker} So is the only r reason we can make all these smaller Bayes - nets , because we know we can only deal with a finite set of constructions ? Cuz oth If we 're just taking arbitrary language in , we couldn't have a node for every possible question , you know ?
Grad A: A decision node for every possible question , you mean ?
Grad C: Well , I {disfmarker} like , in the case of {disfmarker} Yeah . In the ca Any piece of language , we wouldn't be able to answer it with this system , b if we just h Cuz we wouldn't have the correct node . Basically , w what you 're s proposing is a n Where - Is node , right ?
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad C: And {disfmarker} and if we {disfmarker} And if someone {disfmarker} says , you know , uh , something in Mandarin to the system , we 'd - wouldn't know which node to look at to answer that question ,
Grad A: So is {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .
Grad C: right ?
Grad B: Mmm ?
Grad C: So , but {disfmarker} but if we have a finite {disfmarker} What ?
Grad B: I don't see your point . What {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what I am thinking , or what we 're about to propose here is we 're always gonna get the whole list of values and their posterior probabilities . And now we need an expert system or belief - net or something that interprets that , that looks at all the values and says , " The winner is Timing . Now , go there . " " Uh , go there , Timing , now . " Or , " The winner is Info - on , Function - Off . " So , he wants to know {pause} something about it , and what it does . Nuh ? Uh , regardless of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of the input . Wh - Regardle
Grad C: Yeah , but But how does the expert {disfmarker} but how does the expert system know {disfmarker} how who which one to declare the winner , if it doesn't know the question it is , and how that question should be answered ?
Grad B: Based on the k what the question was , so what the discourse , the ontology , the situation and the user model gave us , we came up with these values for these decisions .
Grad C: Yeah I know . But how do we weight what we get out ? As , which one i Which ones are important ? So my i So , if we were to it with a Bayes - net , we 'd have to have a node {disfmarker} for every question that we knew how to deal with , that would take all of the inputs and weight them appropriately for that question .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Does that make sense ? Yay , nay ?
Grad A: Um , I mean , are you saying that , what happens if you try to scale this up to the situation , or are we just dealing with arbitrary language ?
Grad C: We {disfmarker}
Grad A: Is that your point ?
Grad C: Well , no . I {disfmarker} I guess my question is , Is the reason that we can make a node f or {disfmarker} OK . So , lemme see if I 'm confused . Are we going to make a node for every question ? Does that make sense ? {disfmarker}
Grad A: For every question ?
Grad C: Or not .
Grad A: Like {disfmarker}
Grad C: Every construction .
Grad A: Hmm . I don't {disfmarker} Not necessarily , I would think . I mean , it 's not based on constructions , it 's based on things like , uh , there 's gonna be a node for Go - there or not , and there 's gonna be a node for Enter , View , Approach .
Grad C: Wel W OK . So , someone asked a question .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad C: How do we decide how to answer it ?
Grad B: Well , look at {disfmarker} look {disfmarker} Face yourself with this pr question . You get this {disfmarker} You 'll have {disfmarker} y This is what you get . And now you have to make a decision . What do we think ? What does this tell us ? And not knowing what was asked , and what happened , and whether the person was a tourist or a local , because all of these factors have presumably already gone into making these posterior probabilities . What {disfmarker} what we need is a {disfmarker} just a mechanism that says , " Aha ! There is {disfmarker} "
Grad C: Yeah . I just don't think a " winner - take - all " type of thing is the {disfmarker}
Grad A: I mean , in general , like , we won't just have those three , right ? We 'll have , uh , like , many , many nodes . So we have to , like {disfmarker} So that it 's no longer possible to just look at the nodes themselves and figure out what the person is trying to say .
Grad B: Yep . Because there are interdependencies , right ? The uh {disfmarker} Uh , no . So if {disfmarker} if for example , the Go - there posterior possibility is so high , um , uh , w if it 's {disfmarker} if it has reached {disfmarker} reached a certain height , then all of this becomes irrelevant . So . If {disfmarker} even if {disfmarker} if the function or the history or something is scoring pretty good on the true node , true value {disfmarker}
Grad C: Wel I don't know about that , cuz that would suggest that {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker}
Grad B: He wants to go there and know something about it ?
Grad C: Do they have to be mutual Yeah . Do they have to be mutually exclusive ?
Grad B: I think to some extent they are . Or maybe they 're not .
Grad C: Cuz I , uh {disfmarker} The way you describe what they meant , they weren't mutu uh , they didn't seem mutually exclusive to me .
Grad B: Well , if he doesn't want to go there , even if the Enter posterior proba So .
Grad C: Wel
Grad B: Go - there is No . Enter is High , and Info - on is High .
Grad C: Well , yeah , just out of the other three , though , that you had in the {disfmarker}
Grad B: Hmm ?
Grad C: those three nodes . The - d They didn't seem like they were mutually exclusive .
Grad B: No , there 's {disfmarker} No . But {disfmarker} It 's through the {disfmarker}
Grad C: So th s so , yeah , but some {disfmarker} So , some things would drop out , and some things would still be important .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: But I guess what 's confusing me is , if we have a Bayes - net to deal w another Bayes - net to deal with this stuff ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: you know , uh , is the only reason {disfmarker} OK , so , I guess , if we have a Ba - another Bayes - net to deal with this stuff , the only r reason {pause} we can design it is cuz we know what each question is asking ?
Grad A: Yeah . I think that 's true .
Grad C: And then , so , the only reason {disfmarker} way we would know what question he 's asking is based upon {disfmarker} Oh , so if {disfmarker} Let 's say I had a construction parser , and I plug this in , I would know what each construction {disfmarker} the communicative intent of the construction was
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: and so then I would know how to weight the nodes appropriately , in response . So no matter what they said , if I could map it onto a Where - Is construction , I could say , " ah !
Grad A: Ge Mm - hmm .
Grad C: well the the intent , here , was Where - Is " ,
Grad A: OK , right .
Grad C: and I could look at those .
Grad A: Yeah . Yes , I mean . Sure . You do need to know {disfmarker} I mean , to have that kind of information .
Grad B: Hmm . Yeah , I 'm also agreeing that {pause} a simple pru {comment} Take the ones where we have a clear winner . Forget about the ones where it 's all sort of middle ground . Prune those out and just hand over the ones where we have a winner . Yeah , because that would be the easiest way . We just compose as an output an XML mes {vocalsound} message that says . " Go there {pause} now . " " Enter historical information . " And not care whether that 's consistent with anything . Right ? But in this case if we say , " definitely he doesn't want to go there . He just wants to know where it is . " or let 's call this {disfmarker} this " Look - At - H " He wants to know something about the history of . So he said , " Tell me something about the history of that . " Now , the e But for some reason the Endpoint - Approach gets a really high score , {pause} too . We can't expect this to be sort of at O point {comment} three , three , three , O point , three , three , three , O point , three , three , three . Right ? Somebody needs to zap that . You know ? Or know {disfmarker} There needs to be some knowledge that {disfmarker}
Grad C: We {disfmarker} Yeah , but , the Bayes - net that would merge {disfmarker} I just realized that I had my hand in between my mouth and my micr er , my and my microphone . So then , the Bayes - net that would merge there , that would make the decision between Go - there , Info - on , and Location , would have a node to tell you which one of those three you wanted , and based upon that node , then you would look at the other stuff .
Grad B: Yep . Yep .
Grad C: I mean , it i Does that make sense ?
Grad B: Yep . It 's sort of one of those , that 's {disfmarker} It 's more like a decision tree , if {disfmarker} if you want . You first look o at the lowball ones ,
Grad C: Yeah , i
Grad B: and then {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yeah , I didn't intend to say that every possible {disfmarker} OK . There was a confusion there , k I didn't intend to say every possible thing should go into the Bayes - net , because some of the things aren't relevant in the Bayes - net for a specific question . Like the Endpoint is not necessarily relevant in the Bayes - net for Where - Is until after you 've decided whether you wanna go there or not .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Right .
Grad C: Show us the way , Bhaskara .
Grad A: I guess the other thing is that um , yeah . I mean , when you 're asked a specific question and you don't even {disfmarker} Like , if you 're asked a Where - Is question , you may not even look {disfmarker} like , ask for the posterior probability of the , uh , EVA node , right ? Cuz , that 's what {disfmarker} I mean , in the Bayes - net you always ask for the posterior probability of a specific node . So , I mean , you may not even bother to compute things you don't need .
Grad B: Um . Aren't we always computing all ?
Grad A: No . You can compute , uh , the posterior probability of one subset of the nodes , given some other nodes , but totally ignore some other nodes , also . Basically , things you ignore get marginalized over .
Grad B: Yeah , but that 's {disfmarker} that 's just shifting the problem . Then you would have to make a decision ,
Grad A: Yeah . So you have to make {disfmarker}
Grad B: " OK , if it 's a Where - Is question , which decision nodes do I query ? "
Grad A: Yeah . Yes . But I would think that 's what you want to do .
Grad B: That 's un
Grad A: Right ?
Grad B: Mmm .
Grad D: Well , eventually , you still have to pick out which ones you look at .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad D: So it 's pretty much the same problem ,
Grad B: Yeah {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's apples and oranges .
Grad D: isn't it ?
Grad B: Nuh ? I mean , maybe it does make a difference in terms of performance , computational time .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: So either you always have it compute all the posterior possibilities for all the values for all nodes , and then prune the ones you think that are irrelevant ,
Grad A: Mmm .
Grad B: or you just make a p @ @ {comment} a priori estimate of what you think might be relevant and query those .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad C: So basically , you 'd have a decision tree {pause} query , {pause} Go - there . If k if that 's false , query this one . If that 's true , query that one . And just basically do a binary search through the {disfmarker} ?
Grad A: I don't know if it would necessarily be that , uh , complicated . But , uh {disfmarker} I mean , it w
Grad C: Well , in the case of Go - there , it would be . In the case {disfmarker} Cuz if you needed an If y If Go - there was true , you 'd wanna know what endpoint was . And if it was false , you 'd wanna d look at either Lo - Income Info - on or History .
Grad A: Yeah . That 's true , I guess . Yeah , {vocalsound} so , in a way you would have that .
Grad C: Also , I 'm somewhat boggled by that Hugin software .
Grad A: OK , why 's that ?
Grad C: I can't figure out how to get the probabilities into it . Like , I 'd look at {disfmarker}
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: It 's somewha It 's boggling me .
Grad A: OK . Alright . Well , hopefully it 's {pause} fixable .
Grad C: Ju
Grad A: It 's {disfmarker} there 's a {disfmarker}
Grad C: Oh yeah , yeah . I d I just think I haven't figured out what {disfmarker} the terms in Hugin mean , versus what Java Bayes terms are .
Grad A: OK .
Grad B: Um , by the way , are {disfmarker} Do we know whether Jerry and Nancy are coming ?
Grad A: So we can figure this out .
Grad B: Or {disfmarker} ?
Grad A: They should come when they 're done their stuff , basically , whenever that is . So .
Grad C: What d what do they need to do left ?
Grad A: Um , I guess , Jerry needs to enter marks , but I don't know if he 's gonna do that now or later . But , uh , if he 's gonna enter marks , it 's gonna take him awhile , I guess , and he won't be here .
Grad C: And what 's Nancy doing ?
Grad A: Nancy ? Um , she was sorta finishing up the , uh , calculation of marks and assigning of grades , but I don't know if she should be here . Well {disfmarker} or , she should be free after that , so {disfmarker} assuming she 's coming to this meeting . I don't know if she knows about it .
Grad C: She 's on the email list , right ?
Grad A: Is she ? OK .
Grad B: Mm - hmm . OK . Because basically , what {disfmarker} where we also have decided , prior to this meeting is that we would have a rerun of the three of us sitting together
Grad D: OK .
Grad B: sometime {pause} this week {pause} again
Grad A: OK .
Grad B: and finish up the , uh , values of this . So we have , uh {disfmarker} Believe it or not , we have all the bottom ones here .
Grad C: Well , I {disfmarker}
Grad D: You added a bunch of {pause} nodes , for {disfmarker} ?
Grad B: Yep . We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we have {disfmarker} Actually what we have is this line .
Grad D: OK .
Grad B: Right ?
Grad C: Uh , what do the , uh , structures do ?
Grad B: Hmm ?
Grad C: So the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} For instance , this Location node 's got two inputs ,
Grad A: Four inputs .
Grad B: Hmm .
Grad C: that one you {disfmarker}
Grad B: Four .
Grad A: Those are {disfmarker} The bottom things are inputs , also .
Grad C: Oh , I see .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad C: OK , that was OK . That makes a lot more sense to me now .
Grad B: Yep .
Grad C: Cuz I thought it was like , that one in Stuart 's book about , you know , the {disfmarker}
Grad A: Alarm in the dog ?
Grad C: U Yeah .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad C: Or the earthquake and the alarm .
Grad A: Sorry . Yeah , I 'm confusing two .
Grad C: Yeah , there 's a dog one , too , but that 's in Java Bayes ,
Grad A: Right .
Grad C: isn't it ?
Grad A: Maybe .
Grad C: But there 's something about bowel problems or something with the dog .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: And we have all the top ones , all the ones to which no arrows are pointing . What we 're missing are the {disfmarker} these , where arrows are pointing , where we 're combining top ones . So , we have to come up with values for this , and this , this , this , and so forth . And maybe just fiddle around with it a little bit more . And , um . And then it 's just , uh , edges , many of edges . And , um , we won't {comment} meet next Monday . So .
Grad C: Cuz of Memorial Day ?
Grad A: We 'll meet next Tuesday , I guess .
Grad B: Yep . Yeah .
Grad C: When 's Jerry leaving for {disfmarker} Italia ?
Grad B: On {disfmarker} on Friday .
Grad A: Which Friday ?
Grad B: This {disfmarker} this Friday .
Grad A: OK .
Grad D: Oh . This Friday ?
Grad C: Ugh .
Grad B: This Friday .
Grad C: As in , four days ?
Grad B: Yep .
Grad C: Or , three days ?
Grad A: Is he {disfmarker} How long is he gone for ?
Grad B: Two weeks .
Grad A: Italy , huh ? What 's , uh {disfmarker} what 's there ?
Grad B: Well , it 's a country . Buildings . People .
Grad A: Pasta .
Grad C: But it 's not a conference or anything .
Grad B: Hmm ?
Grad C: He 's just visiting .
Grad A: Right . Just visiting .
Grad B: Vacation .
Grad A: It 's a pretty nice place , in my brief , uh , encounter with it .
Grad B: Do you guys {disfmarker} Oh , yeah . So . Part of what we actually want to do is sort of schedule out what we want to surprise him with when {disfmarker} when he comes back . Um , so {disfmarker}
Grad C: Oh , I think we should disappoint him .
Grad B: Yeah ? You {disfmarker} or have a finished construction parser and a working belief - net , and uh {disfmarker}
Grad C: That wouldn't be disappointing . I think w we should do absolutely no work for the two weeks that he 's gone .
Grad B: Well , that 's actually what I had planned , personally . I had {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I had sort of scheduled out in my mind that you guys do a lot of work , and I do nothing . And then , I sort of {disfmarker}
Grad C: Oh , yeah , that sounds good , too .
Grad B: sort of bask in {disfmarker} in your glory . But , uh , i do you guys have any vacation plans , because I myself am going to be , um , gone , but this is actually not really important . Just this weekend we 're going camping .
Grad C: Yeah , I 'm wanna be this {disfmarker} gone this weekend , too .
Grad B: Ah . But we 're all going to be here on Tuesday again ? Looks like it ?
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad B: OK , then . Let 's meet {disfmarker} meet again next Tuesday . And , um , finish up this Bayes - net . And once we have finished it , I guess we can , um {disfmarker} and that 's going to be more just you and me , because Bhaskara is doing probabilistic , recursive , structured , object - oriented , uh ,
Grad C: Killing machines !
Grad B: reasoning machines .
Grad A: Yes .
Grad B: And , um {disfmarker}
Grad C: Killing , reasoning . What 's the difference ?
Grad D: Wait . So you 're saying , next Tuesday , is it the whole group meeting , or just us three working on it , or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} ?
Grad B: Uh . The whole group . And we present our results , our final ,
Grad D: OK .
Grad B: definite {disfmarker}
Grad D: So , when you were saying we {pause} need to do a re - run of , like {disfmarker}
Grad A: h What ?
Grad D: What {disfmarker} Like , just working out the rest of the {disfmarker}
Grad B: Yeah . We should do this th the upcoming days .
Grad D: This week ?
Grad B: So , this week , yeah .
Grad C: When you say , " the whole group " , you mean {pause} the four of us , and Keith ?
Grad D: OK .
Grad B: And , Ami might .
Grad C: Ami might be here , and it 's possible that Nancy 'll be here ?
Grad B: Yep .
Grad C: So , yeah .
Grad B: Because , th you know , once we have the belief - net done {disfmarker}
Grad C: You 're just gonna have to explain it to me , then , on Tuesday , how it 's all gonna work out . You know .
Grad B: We will . OK . Because then , once we have it sort of up and running , then we can start you know , defining the interfaces and then feed stuff into it and get stuff out of it , and then hook it up to some fake construction parser and {disfmarker}
Grad C: That you will have in about nine months or so .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad B: And , um ,
Grad C: The first bad version 'll be done in nine months .
Grad B: Yeah , I can worry about the ontology interface and you can {disfmarker} Keith can worry about the discourse . I mean , this is pretty {disfmarker} Um , I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I hope everybody uh knows that these are just going to be uh dummy values , right ?
Grad A: Which {disfmarker}
Grad B: where the {disfmarker}
Grad A: Which ones ?
Grad B: S so {disfmarker} so if the endpoint {disfmarker} if the Go - there is Yes and No , then Go - there - discourse will just be fifty - fifty . Right ?
Grad A: Um , what do you mean ? If the Go - there says No , then the Go - there is {disfmarker}
Grad D: I don't get it .
Grad A: I don't u understand .
Grad B: Um .
Grad A: Like , the Go - there depends on all those four things .
Grad B: Yep .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad B: But , what are the values of the Go - there - discourse ?
Grad A: Well , it depends on the situation . If the discourse is strongly indicating that {disfmarker}
Grad B: Yeah , but , uh , we have no discourse input .
Grad A: Oh , I see . The d See , uh , specifically in our situation , D and O are gonna be , uh {disfmarker} Yeah . Sure . So , whatever .
Grad D: So , so far we have {disfmarker} Is that what the Keith node is ?
Grad B: Yep .
Grad D: OK . And you 're taking it out ? {pause} for now ?
Grad B: Well , this is D {disfmarker}
Grad D: Or {disfmarker} ?
Grad B: OK , this , I can {disfmarker} I can get it in here .
Grad D: All the D 's are {disfmarker}
Grad B: I can get it in here , so th We have the , uh , um , sk let 's {disfmarker} let 's call it " Keith - Johno
Grad A: Johno ?
Grad B: node " . There is an H {comment} somewhere printed .
Grad C: There you go .
Grad A: Yeah . People have the same problem with my name .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad A: Oops .
Grad B: And , um ,
Grad C: Does th th does the H go b before the A or after the A ?
Grad A: Oh , in my name ? Before the A .
Grad C: Yeah . OK , good . Cuz you kn When you said people have the same problem , I thought {disfmarker} Cuz my H goes after the uh e e e the v
Grad A: People have the inverse problem with my name .
Grad C: OK . I always have to check , every time y I send you an email , {comment} a past email of yours , {comment} to make sure I 'm spelling your name correctly .
Grad A: Yeah . That 's good .
Grad C: I worry about you .
Grad A: I appreciate that .
Grad B: But , when you abbreviate yourself as the " Basman " , you don't use any H 's .
Grad A: " Basman " ? Yeah , it 's because of the chessplayer named Michael Basman , who is my hero .
Grad B: OK .
Grad C: You 're a geek . It 's O K . I
Grad B: OK .
Grad C: How do you pronou How do you pronounce your name ?
Grad D: Eva .
Grad C: Eva ?
Grad A: Not Eva ?
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad C: What if I were {disfmarker} What if I were to call you Eva ?
Grad D: I 'd probably still respond to it . I 've had people call me Eva , but I don't know .
Grad C: No , not just Eva , Eva . Like if I u take the V and s pronounce it like it was a German V ?
Grad B: Which is F .
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad D: Um , no idea then .
Grad B: Voiced .
Grad D: What ?
Grad C: It sounds like an F .
Grad D: I {disfmarker}
Grad C: There 's also an F in German ,
Grad D: OK .
Grad B: Well , it 's just the difference between voiced and unvoiced .
Grad C: which is why I {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad D: OK .
Grad C: As long as that 's O K .
Grad D: Um .
Grad C: I mean , I might slip out and say it accidentally . That 's all I 'm saying .
Grad D: That 's fine .
Grad A: Yeah . It doesn't matter what those nodes are , anyway , because we 'll just make the weights " zero " for now .
Grad B: Yep . We 'll make them zero for now , because it {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who knows what they come up with , what 's gonna come in there . OK . And , um , then should we start on Thursday ?
Grad A: OK .
Grad B: And not meet tomorrow ?
Grad A: Sure .
Grad B: OK . I 'll send an email , make a time suggestion .
Grad C: Wait , maybe it 's OK , so that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that we can {disfmarker} that we have one node per construction . Cuz even in people , like , they don't know what you 're talking about if you 're using some sort of strange construction .
Grad B: Yeah , they would still c sort of get the closest , best fit .
Grad C: Well , yeah , but I mean , the {disfmarker} uh , I mean , that 's what the construction parser would do .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Uh , I mean , if you said something completely arbitrary , it would f find the closest construction ,
Grad B: OK .
Grad C: right ? But if you said something that was completel er {disfmarker} h theoretically the construction parser would do that {disfmarker} But if you said something for which there was no construction whatsoever , n people wouldn't have any idea what you were talking about .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Like " Bus dog fried egg . " I mean . You know .
Grad B: Or , if even something Chinese , for example .
Grad C: Or , something in Mandarin , yeah . Or Cantonese , as the case may be . What do you think about that , Bhaskara ?
Grad A: I mean {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} But how many constructions do {disfmarker} could we possibly have {pause} nodes for ?
Grad C: In this system , or in r
Grad A: No , we . Like , when people do this kind of thing .
Grad C: Oh , when p How many constructions do people have ?
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad C: I have not {comment} the slightest idea .
Grad A: Is it considered to be like in {disfmarker} are they considered to be like very , uh , sort of s abstract things ?
Grad C: Every noun is a construction .
Grad A: OK , so it 's like in the {pause} thousands .
Grad C: The {disfmarker} Yeah . Any {disfmarker} any form - meaning pair , to my understanding , is a construction .
Grad A: OK .
Grad B: So .
Grad C: And form u starts at the level of noun {disfmarker} Or actually , maybe even sounds .
Grad B: Phoneme . Yep .
Grad C: Yeah . And goes upwards until you get the ditransitive construction .
Grad A: S
Grad C: And then , of course , the c I guess , maybe there can be the {disfmarker} Can there be combinations of the dit
Grad A: Discourse - level {pause} constructions .
Grad C: Yeah . The " giving a speech " construction ,
Grad B: Rhetorical constructions .
Grad A: Yes .
Grad B: Yeah . But , I mean , you know , you can probably count {disfmarker} count the ways . I mean .
Grad C: It 's probab Yeah , I would s definitely say it 's finite .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad C: And at least in compilers , that 's all that really matters , as long as your analysis is finite .
Grad A: How 's that ? {nonvocalsound} How it can be finite , again ?
Grad C: Nah , I can't think of a way it would be infinite .
Grad B: Well , you can come up with new constructions .
Grad C: Yeah . {comment} If the {disfmarker} if your {disfmarker} if your brain was totally non - deterministic , then perhaps there 's a way to get , uh , infin an infinite number of constructions that you 'd have to worry about .
Grad A: But , I mean , in the {nonvocalsound} practical sense , it 's impossible .
Grad C: Right . Cuz if we have a fixed number of neurons {disfmarker} ?
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad C: So the best - case scenario would be the number of constructions {disfmarker} or , the worst - case scenario is the number of constructions equals the number of neurons .
Grad A: Well , two to the power of the number of neurons .
Grad C: Right . But still finite .
Grad B: OK .
Grad C: No , wait . Not necessarily , is it ? We can end the {pause} meeting . I just {disfmarker} Can't you use different var different levels of activation ? across , uh {disfmarker} lots of different neurons , to specify different values ?
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Um , yeah , but there 's , like , a certain level of {disfmarker}
Grad C: There 's a bandwidth issue ,
Grad A: Bandw - Yeah , so you can't do better than something .
Grad C: right ? Yeah .
Grad B: Turn off the mikes . Otherwise it gets really tough for the tr
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The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 22 of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. A reminder to all members that in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not also be connected to the video conference. For those joining via video conference, I would like to remind you that, when speaking, you should be on the same channel as the language you are speaking. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. I understand we don't have any ministerial announcements today, so we'll proceed to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented. The first petition will be presented by Ms.May.
Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP): Mr. Chair, it's an honour to rise in meeting number 22 of the COVID-19 committee, otherwise known as something like the House of Commons. I'm here to present two petitions containing hundreds of signatures on the issue of the treatment of Falun Gong practitioners by the People's Republic of China, particularly the practice that's alleged of involuntary organ harvesting. The petitioners ask the Government of Canada to condemn this practice and to publicly call for an end to the persecution of Falun Gong in the People's Republic of China. The second petition is from residents throughout SaanichGulf Islands concerned about what was, at the time this petition was submitted, a future problem. It remains an issue, and I present it on behalf of petitioners who wish the Government of Canada not to put public funds into purchasing or maintaining the Trans Mountain pipeline or towards any expansion of the pipeline.
The Chair: Next we'll go to Ms. Kwan.
Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Chair, I rise to table two petitions. The first petition deals with the COVID-19 situation. The petitioners note the pandemic is having a devastating impact on many Canadians nationwide, especially those who have low to modest income, small business gig workers, freelancers, artists, film industry workers, non-salaried workers and individuals on fixed incomes such as seniors and those on disability. It further notes that rent, mortgage and utility payments are due at the end of each month, putting countless Canadians at risk of losing their housing. It is paramount there be safe self-isolation opportunities for all individuals in this country. To that end, the petitioners are calling for the government to immediately enact a nationwide rent freeze, eviction freeze, mortgage freeze and utility freeze, enforce mortgage deferrals for homeowners without penalty or interest charges from financial institutions and provide direct assistance in the form of a monthly, universal, direct payment of $2,000 per month for all, with an additional $250 per child immediately. The second petition deals with the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion. These petitioners join the hundreds of thousands of people who are opposed to the expansion. Trans Mountain, in building the pipeline, brings massive environmental and economic risk with no substantial benefit to British Columbia or to local residents. Approximately 40,000 barrels of oil have already leaked from existing Kinder Morgan pipelines, including two major spills in Burnaby since 2007. I might note, Mr. Chair, that just this past weekend there was yet another spill to the tune of 1,195 barrels here in British Columbia. There is no known scientific technology to clean up the bitumen when there is a spill, and the number of tankers would go from eight to 34 per month into the Burrard Inlet. It puts at risk many residential neighbourhoods and the traditional territories of at least 15 first nations.
The Chair: May I interrupt for a moment, Ms. Kwan. I want to remind all members in the House that when presenting a petition, the idea is to be as concise as possible. Ms. Kwan, I'll let you wrap up, please.
Ms. Jenny Kwan: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The petitioners are calling for the government to immediately act to prevent this new oil pipeline from proceeding through British Columbia.
The Chair: Thank you. We'll now go to Mr. Genuis.
Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Mr. Chair, I have four petitions to present today. The first petition reflects the outrage of my constituents at the ever-expanding order in council from the government banning more and more firearms. In particular, the petitioners highlight the failure of the government to act on the issue of illegal guns. The petitioners note that virtually all violent crimes committed in Canada, including the recent shooting in Nova Scotia, involve illegal firearms in the hands of those who are already not permitted to possess them. The petition has two asks. First of all, it asks that we reverse the order in council banning certain firearms, but also that we propose measures that will effectively address the illegal use of firearms by criminals while respecting the rights of law-abiding citizens. It also asks that we ensure that substantial changes to firearms laws in future actually be made by Parliament, not by the government acting in an unaccountable manner. The second petition deals with Bill C-8, which is the government's bill around conversion therapy. The petitioners support efforts to ban conversion therapy. They express concern about problems in the wording of the definition used in the legislation. They're asking the government to support amendments to fix the definition to address the issue of conversion therapy and ensure that the definition is correct and doesn't criminalize certain forms of counselling that individuals may voluntarily enter into. The third petition is regarding Bill S-204, a bill in the Senate that seeks to make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad to receive an organ without consent, dealing especially with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking in China. The petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204 and want to see it move forward. The final petition is with respect to Bill C-7. There's been much discussion in this House about the need to do better in terms of long-term care. Rather than working to do better in long-term care, unfortunately we've seen the government removing vital safeguards in the area of euthanasia. I think our focus should be on assisting life rather than removing safeguards that are required in association with the euthanasia regime. The petitioners are particularly concerned about the government's plan to remove a 10-day reflection period that normally takes place. That period can already be waived under certain circumstances, but Bill C-7 proposes to remove it entirely as well as reduce the number of witnesses involved. The petitioners are quite concerned about what's going on in Bill C-7 and call for it to be stopped or amended.
The Chair: Presenting petitions. We'll proceed to statements by members. We'll start off with Mr. Manly.
Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP): Mr. Chair, we are in the midst of a global pandemic and an economic shock. Recent events have ripped open the wound of systemic racism in our country. Racialized and marginalized communities have been disproportionally affected by the pandemic. Thousands of seniors in long-term care facilities have died. It is clear that we need system change. In the past, governments have bailed out banks and corporations because they were too big to fail. It is time to bail out humanity and the planet. No one will be immune from the threat of climate change and mass extinction. Both are the result of the exploitation of the natural world in the name of the economy. Humans created the economy. We can choose to change it. We must protect our environment or perish. COVID-19 has demonstrated that together we can take courageous action for the common good. We need to do the same for the climate crisis, because humanity and our planet are too big to fail.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Spengemann.
Mr. Sven Spengemann (MississaugaLakeshore, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today marks World Elder Abuse Awareness Day. Underestimated and under-reported, elder abuse exists across the world. At risk of neglect and assault, many of the most vulnerable older persons reside in our long-term care facilities. They are the seniors who have built our country and shaped our communities, who have shown us resilience, courage and selflessness, who have made us stronger, and whose work and teachings continue to inspire us. They are parents and grandparents, brothers and sisters, friends and mentors. We have not been there for them in the same way they've been there for us throughout their lives. The Canadian Forces report, alongside the climbing disproportionate death toll in our long-term care facilities, has reconfirmed the ugly, indefensible reality of elder abuse and neglect in Canada. In my community, we mourn the deaths of 68 seniors from one long-term care facility alone, Camilla Care. We must make the same unwavering commitment to older persons as they have shown to us. We must protect and uphold their human rights. We must do better.
The Chair: Before proceeding, I just want to bring up to the members in the background that we want to keep it as simple and as parliamentary as possible in keeping it neutral. We'll now move to Mr. Barrett.
Mr. Michael Barrett (LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, CPC): During these trying times, the residents of LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes have risen to the challenge. They've made sacrifices and gone above and beyond to make the lives of their neighbours better and to keep our communities safe. It would be impossible to list everyone who has emerged as a community hero, but I'd like to highlight a few, like Lily, an eight-year-old from Elgin who raised funds for her local food bank by building and selling squirrel picnic tables, and Louise Boardman from Spencerville who's making masks for long-term care facilities and selling others in support of the Breast Cancer Action centre. The Knights of Columbus in Prescott raised funds and are distributing some $27,000 in support of charitable groups throughout the region. The Knights of Columbus in Kemptville are working overtime operating the local food bank. Who can forget our top-notch health care workers like Hannah and Mary at the Brockville COVID-19 testing centre? It is the people of LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes that make it so great. To everyone working to make a difference and to all of our essential workers, thank you.
The Chair: Next is Mr. Anandasangaree.
Mr. Gary Anandasangaree (ScarboroughRouge Park, Lib.): Mr. Chair, the Indian Act enshrined racism into Canadian law in 1876, and, through residential schools, the child welfare system, our legal system and our police, we criminalized and tore apart indigenous peoples. The deaths of Chantel Moore and Rodney Levi and the assault on Chief Allan Adam are recent examples of systemic racism within the RCMP. Sadly, the RCMP leadership has failed to acknowledge this reality and its root causes. These same systems negatively impact black Canadians. Anti-black racism has resulted in more young black men being jailed, children being streamed or excluded from schools and negative police interaction due to profiling. Black lives matter. No single Canadian is responsible for the prevalence of systemic racism; we all are. Collectively we build institutions that discriminate based on race. It is now time to reimagine and rework our institutions, starting with our police, to ensure that all Canadians can achieve their truest potential.
The Chair: Ms.Larouche, you have the floor.
Ms. Andranne Larouche (Shefford, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. June15 is World Elder Abuse Awareness Day. I want to remind members of the link between abuse and the problems of economic dependency among seniors. Improving their purchasing power means reducing the risk of them falling victim to abusive people. That's why the increase in the old age security benefit and the guaranteed income supplement must be extended beyond the pandemic. In three weeks, our seniors will receive their first cheque, when they should be receiving their second. A date must also be announced for the new horizons for seniors program, which helps several groups develop projects to break the isolation of seniors. In closing, I would like to mention the organization Justice alternative et mdiation that during the pandemic, along with other organizations in Shefford, has set up the project Une histoire pour la tienne, which also serves to mark this day. It's a virtual meeting between young people and seniors, allowing them to exchange some inspiring life experiences. Since age prejudice is very much present, I applaud this project, which aims to make us understand each other better and judge each other less.
The Chair: We'll now continue with Mr. Sangha.
Mr. Ramesh Sangha (Brampton Centre, Lib.): Mr. Chair, in the time of this terrible crisis affecting all Canadians, when we are all thinking about how best to deal with it, let's all think about the people around us. Let's show our representation not only to those in the sector of sanctioned workers, but also to all those Canadians who day by day stand up and make a difference. Every day I am proud of the reactions of Canadians to this crisis. I want to acknowledge and celebrate all the contributions made by the people of Brampton Centre, all religious institutions, civil society and community organizations like Knights Table in my riding. We are all standing together to fight COVID-19. Let's continue working hard with that same spirit to get positive results out. Thank you very much.
The Chair: I will proceed to Mr. Ruff.
Mr. Alex Ruff (BruceGreyOwen Sound, CPC): Mr. Chair, whether graduating from elementary school, high school, Georgian College or graduating from colleges or universities across the country, I am proud of the accomplishments of all the graduates across BruceGreyOwen Sound. I would also like to congratulate and thank all the teachers and parents who have adapted to teaching online or from home and who have supported these graduates over the course of their academic careers. I'd like to extend special congratulations to Cameron Lovell, who just graduated from grade eight, as well as to Neebeesh and Neebin Elliott, originally from the Nawash unceded first nation on the Bruce Peninsula, who will be headed to Michigan State University, and to Jared Lumley from Owen Sound, who just graduated from my alma mater, the Royal Military College of Canada. The college motto of Truth, Duty, Valour is something all Canadians should aspire to live by. I wish all the best to these graduates on their next adventures. I and Canada cannot wait to see how their dreams and goals impact and change the world. I congratulate BruceGreyOwen Sound graduates.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr.Cormier.
Mr. Serge Cormier (AcadieBathurst, Lib.): Today I pay tribute to RichardLosier, an entrepreneur, visionary and builder who died on June9, 2020, surrounded by his family. Mr.Losier is a giant in the Acadian Peninsula business community. In1968, he co-founded St.Isidore Asphalte, a company that now has more than 200employees. He also launched many other businesses over the years. He was unifying and generous, a philanthropist who cared about young people and never missed an opportunity to improve their lives. I met Mr.Losier when I was 14years old, and I can say that he has been a positive influence in my life. Every time I met him, he gave me a lot of advice and encouragement, which I've never forgotten. Mr.Losier's legacy to his community is invaluable. His commitment remains an example for all of us to follow. Mr.Losier now joins his wife, Nolla. I offer my most sincere condolences to his children, Richard Jr., Ronald, Nathalie, Caroline and Stphane, and to his family and friends. Rest in peace, Mr.Losier. You will be greatly missed. Thank you for everything you've done for our region.
The Chair: We will now go to Ms. Dabrusin.
Ms. Julie Dabrusin (TorontoDanforth, Lib.): Hello from my community in east end Toronto. People talk about how a city the size of Toronto can be cold, but that's far from the truth in my community. I want to give a shout-out to our teachers, like Mr. Wong of Earl Grey Senior Public School, who delivered home-baked cookies and handwritten notes to all of his students, or Monsieur Steve, who's offering online French classes, or the teachers of Riverdale Collegiate, who paraded through our streets to celebrate our graduates. Our local Michael Garron Hospital put out a call for community members to sew masks and received over 60,000 masks, including those made by Lisa Tancre of Chartwell Avondale Retirement Residence. Michelle Beaton organized a front window scavenger hunt to entertain children and their families. Restaurants, even while facing adversity, have been generously donating food, like the members of the Leslieville BIA or Mezes. There are so many more stories of generosity that I could share, but I'm out of time. I thank everyone who has stepped up. We all appreciate all of their hard work.
The Chair: We will now go to Ms. Sahota.
Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC): Mr. Chair, on Saturday night, Calgarians, particularly those in the northeast, in my riding of Calgary Skyview, witnessed a devastating storm, the likes of which I have not seen in my lifetime. Homes, vehicles, community buildings and structures suffered significant damage due to large hail, floods and high winds. People acted quickly to seek shelter. I'm so grateful that there have been no reports of personal injury or loss of life. I went around the community yesterday to survey the damage. It is extensive. My heart aches for those who have been impacted by the storm in an already incredibly difficult time, but we are resilient. We know that in the coming weeks there will be a lot of cleanup required, both to personal property and in the community. I know my constituents, and we will help one another get through this together. I will work hard to do everything I can to help rebuild this community.
The Chair: Mr.Serr, you have the floor.
Mr. Marc Serr (Nickel Belt, Lib.): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I'd like to express my sincere gratitude to the people of West Nippissing who organized Pride activities to celebrate the LGBTQ community in June. This week, we are also celebrating National Public Service Week. I thank the public servants for their dedication to the Nickel Belt community and the Valley East and Rayside-Balfour areas.
The Chair: Next is Mr. Saroya.
Mr. Bob Saroya (MarkhamUnionville, CPC): Mr. Chair, when COVID-19 began spreading across Ontario, Markham, like many other communities, was unprepared. Our front-line health care workers did not have enough personal protective equipment to do their jobs safely. When Markham residents heard about these shortages, my office was flooded with calls from people who had PPE and wanted to donate. Since then my office has been able to deliver tens of thousands of PPE supplies to front-line health care workers and five masks to each family in need. This pandemic has shown that no matter what the challenge is, the Markham community will overcome it. Today, I would like to thank the front-line health care workers who are doing incredible work. I would also like to thank all those who have helped in Markham's hour of need.
The Chair: I understand we had a bit of a glitch there. I'm sorry. With the pause, we thought that was the end of it. Mr.Serr, I would ask you to continue. I understand you started to switch languages. Please continue. You have 30seconds.
Mr. Marc Serr: Thank you. I'm switching to English now. Thank you to our nurses, doctors, pharmacists, cashiers, janitors. Thank you to various retail workers and first responders dealing with COVID-19. You keep our communities safe and healthy, and you feed us. Your dedication and sacrifice are greatly appreciated. As we start to see local businesses reopen, it is important for all of us to remember to follow best practices outlined by local public health. Our front-line workers deserve our respect. It is important for all of us to respect social distancing, to protect all workers and their families. Together we can remain strong and united as we continue to face this challenge together.
The Chair: Again, my apologies for skipping over there, but now we'll to to Ms. McLeod.
Mrs. Cathy McLeod (KamloopsThompsonCariboo, CPC): Mr. Chair, in commemoration of Italian Heritage Month, I would like to pay tribute to the Colombo Lodge and Italian Cultural Centre in Kamloops, British Columbia. The Colombo Lodge was founded in 1914 and is an integral part of our community. Recently they began Colombo Cares take-home dinners with proceeds distributed to different non-profit organizations throughout the region. Last month they very generously gave away hundreds of dinners to Royal Inland Hospital staff and paramedics for their tireless work throughout the pandemic. In their own words they say, Colombo Lodge is very proud of the Italians that have made Kamloops their home. Community members of Italian ancestrypast and presenthave helped and continue to help Kamloops prosper as a giving, welcoming and inclusive community. Personally, I want to thank all members for their friendship and generosity over the years. Our community is forever grateful for their kindness.
The Chair: We'll now proceed to Mr. Harris.
Mr. Jack Harris (St. John's East, NDP): Mr. Chair, many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are facing a serious financial crisis. Most people with disabilities are waiting to be included in the Liberals' promised program. Fish plant workers will need support to avoid a disastrous year. Many small businesses don't qualify for programs. Municipalities need emergency help to meet the crisis. People are worried about what will happen when the CERB runs out in two weeks' time, and the coming tourism season looks very grim. The province itself is in serious financial crisis due to the pandemic and the decline in oil prices. The federal government must overhaul and enhance the fiscal stabilization program to help Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and other oil-producing provinces through this crisis. Both the province and the oil and gas industry players have committed to net zero emissions by 2050. This is a challenge and an opportunity to transition to a sustainable energy future, but it will require significant investment and support by government to keep the industry strong and make this a just transition for workers. Much has been done. Much more needs to be done.
The Chair: Ms.Gaudreau, you have the floor.
Ms. Marie-Hlne Gaudreau (LaurentidesLabelle, BQ): Mr.Chair, all 44elected municipal officials in the riding of LaurentidesLabelle and I have sent a letter to the government asking that cellular and high-speed Internet networks be made available to all. The crisis has accelerated the demonstration of the need for these networks in daily life. The territorial complexity of the Laurentians means that there are areas where the signal is weak, unstable or non-existent. There is an urgent and essential need to change the infrastructure of the current networks. Also, because of the lockdown, Internet failures are being felt, and they prevent distance learning, telemedicine and teleworking, among other things. How can our municipalities develop economically if they can't provide their community with adequate communication tools? We are therefore calling on the government to put the interests of its people first by investing massively right now in the construction of high-speed Internet and cellular infrastructure.
The Chair: Mr. Waugh.
Mr. Kevin Waugh (SaskatoonGrasswood, CPC): I rise today to pay tribute to Sir Winston Churchill, the former prime minister of Great Britain and one of the greatest leaders history has ever known. In what can only be called a lifetime of service, Churchill's contributions to the Commonwealth and to the world are without equal. During the Second World War he led the allied forces in Europe against the tyranny and fascism of Adolph Hitler and his Nazi regime. When our world was in its darkest hour, Churchill's leadership was a beacon of hope and freedom. I am reminded of something he once said, All the greatest things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honour, duty, mercy, hope. Sir Winston Churchill himself embodied all of these great things and will forever be a symbol of freedom, democracy and hope.
The Chair: Mr. Gerretsen.
Mr. Mark Gerretsen (Kingston and the Islands, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I would like to add my voice to the recognition and celebration of Pride Month, which is celebrated annually during June. Pride Month is important for Canadians because we can be proud of who we are and celebrate our diversity. This June is different from previous years as we cannot celebrate in person all together. However, I know the ongoing pandemic will not stop us from showing our love and support for the LGBTQ+ community. To celebrate Pride Month this year, my office distributed 3,000 pride maple leaf pins across the country; whoever asked received one. Although the majority was sent to constituents in my riding, over 500 pins were sent to the neighbouring ridings of LanarkFrontenacKingston, LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, and HastingsLennox and Addington. It warms my heart to see so many Canadians showing their support. Happy Pride, everyone.
The Chair: We will now proceed to the questioning of ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to substitute for each other safely. Mr.Deltell.
Mr. Grard Deltell (Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC): Mr.Chair, I am very pleased to take part in today's meeting of this parliamentary committee. Canada has been dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic for three months now. The situation now seems to be improving, although we must remain vigilant. Economically, business people and the entire Canadian economy depend on government decisions. My question is very simple: when will the economic update take place?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): Mr.Chair, I thank the hon. member for his question. I agree with him that Canada and Canadians are doing an excellent and difficult job in the fight against coronavirus. As for the economy, our government is there for Canadians, for workers and for businesses, and it will continue to be.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Canadians, business people and businesses want to know where the government is headed. When will the economic update take place?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr.Chair, Canadians know that the government is there to support them. Eight
The Chair: We return to Mr.Deltell.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Canadians and Quebeckers also know that the Government of Quebec will table its economic update this week. Why isn't the federal government doing the same?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr.Chair, I'm pleased to explain to hon. members and to Canadians what the government is doing for the economy
The Chair: We return to Mr.Deltell.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr. Chair, it is a real pleasure for me to explain to the minister and everybody in the House of Commons that today the Saskatchewan government will table its economic update. Why can't Ottawa do that?
The Chair: The honourable Deputy Prime Minister.
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, I'm delighted to have the opportunity to share with Canadians what our government is doing to support workers, businesses and the economy. Eight million Canadians have received the CERB, essential support for Canadian workers and their families.
The Chair: We'll now go back to Mr. Deltell.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr. Chair, 11 days ago the Newfoundland government tabled its own economic update. We see governments acting correctly for their people, except for the Liberal government, which cannot table an economic update. When will the Liberal government table an economic update, which Canadians would like to see?
The Chair: The honourable Deputy Prime Minister.
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, I am delighted to share with the member opposite and with Canadians what we are doing practically that has meaning for Canadians. Let me talk about what we are doing for Canadian businesses. Nearly 670,000 Canadian businesses have received support
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Deltell.
Mr. Grard Deltell: In Canada, the Quebec government will table its economic update this week. The Saskatchewan government tabled its economic update today. The Newfoundland government has tabled its economic update. Everybody is working hard in Canada, and the business community would like to know where the Liberal government is going. The question is crystal clear. When will the Liberal government table an economic update?
The Chair: The honourable Deputy Prime Minister.
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, Canadian workers and Canadian businesses want to know that our government is here to support them. I have shared with this House our support for Canadian workers through the CERB. I've spoken about the CEBA, and let me point out that more than $26 billion of support has been given through that essential program. Let me talk about the wage subsidy. More than 2.6 million
The Chair: We'll return to Mr. Deltell.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr.Chair, this is starting to get interesting; the minister is revealing some of these expenses. Could the minister tell us how much the government has spent in the last three months?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr.Chair, I will continue in French by explaining what our government is doing for Canadians and workers
The Chair: Mr.Deltell.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr. Chair, this is a little bit concerning for all Canadians, because this government cannot say when they will table the economic update, cannot identify how much money they have spent in the last three months and cannot say what is the deficit of Canada. Is somebody in this government running this country correctly?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, absolutely we are running this country, and we are supporting our economy. In fact, we appreciate that Canada currently is experiencing its greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression. That is why we have devoted nearly 11% of GDP to support Canadian workers and Canadian businesses. I want to assure Canadians
The Chair: We'll now continue with Ms.Normandin. Ms.Normandin, you have the floor.
Ms. Christine Normandin (Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr.Chair, there are times when Quebec and the provinces are not just two solitudes, but they get along and speak as one, such as when the time comes to tell the government to mind its own business. On reading section91 of the Constitution Act, 1982, which sets out the exclusive jurisdiction of the federal government, nowhere do I find that the federal government must meddle by attaching conditions to health transfers. It is Quebec and the provinces that hire the medical personnel, doctors, nurses and caretakers. It is Quebec and the provinces that are responsible for purchasing the necessary equipment. It is Quebec and the provinces that know what is happening on the ground and what their needs are. Will the government do the only thing within its authority, which is to take the cheque, sign it and put it in the mail?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr.Chair, I thank the hon. member for her question. We fully understand the importance of federal support for the provinces, especially in our national fight against the coronavirus. I agree with the hon. member that we must give financial support to the provinces, including Quebec absolutely. I would also like to point out the importance of the support of the Canadian Armed Forces, who are doing an important and excellent job in Quebec and Ontario today, right now.
Ms. Christine Normandin: Mr.Chair, I am glad to see that there is recognition of the importance of transferring this money. My question is whether it can be transferred unconditionally; that's what I'm asking. There's a state of emergency. In the past, we have seen that it takes a long time to negotiate conditions with the federal government. We saw it in the case of the Quebec City tramway, and we are still seeing it now in the case of transfers for housing in Quebec, for which there is no agreement and, therefore, no transfer of money. Will the federal government send the money free of conditions?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr.Chair, the hon. member said in her first question that the only thing the federal government had to do on health care was to sign the cheques. I can't agree because, today, at this time, at the request of the Premier of Quebec, the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces are in Quebec today; they're there to save the lives of seniors
The Chair: We now return to Ms.Normandin.
Ms. Christine Normandin: It was indeed at Quebec's request. What I'm saying is that, at present, the provinces are unanimously asking that there be no conditions. It's urgent that the money be transferred. The federal government's job here is to sign the cheque and send it to the provinces. The government's job is also to make Parliament work. This is where there should be negotiations so that we can work, among other things, to send money to people living with disabilities, to make sure we fight CERB fraud and to make sure that court time limits are effective in the current crisis. Can the government focus on the issue in order to respect the provinces and transfer money for health care?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: I thank the hon. member for her question, Mr.Chair. I agree with the hon. member that the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces are in Quebec today at the request of the Province of Quebec. That said, I hope that the hon. member will agree with me that being there for Quebec's seniors, that saving the lives of Quebec's seniors, is much more than simply signing cheques. I am very proud of the work the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces are doing. I think we all should thank these people who are working for Canada, for Quebec, and who are doing an important and excellent job.
Ms. Christine Normandin: Mr.Chair, I think the Deputy Prime Minister misunderstood me when I was talking about the importance of acting quickly. Negotiations between the government and the provinces take an awfully long time because the federal government decides to place conditions where there shouldn't be any. Right now, the only important thing is to transfer the money quickly so that it can be used in our hospitals and our long-term care facilities, where the need is desperate. Quebec and the provinces know exactly what their needs are.
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr.Chair, I would like to point out the extent to which the federal government is there to support the provinces, including Quebec. We have increased funding to the provinces and territories by $500million to help them prepare for COVID-19 outbreaks. This funding is in addition to the $40billion that we already provide annually to the provinces and territories. That's a lot of money. It is strong endorsement
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP): Mr. Chair, systemic racism is killing people. It's killing black people and it's killing indigenous people. Recently, Rodney Levi was another victim of systemic racism. He was killed in New Brunswick by the RCMP. To deal with systemic racism, we need systemic change. Will the Liberal government commit to systemic change so that not another life is ever taken again?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, I thank the member opposite for the extremely important question, and I'll take this opportunity to acknowledge the work that he has done for many years fighting racism in Canada. Our government absolutely acknowledges that systemic racism exists in Canada. It exists in all of our institutions, including the police and the RCMP. I agree with the member opposite that now is the moment to fight this
The Chair: Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, I thank the Deputy Prime Minister very much for the response, but there are some specific actions we need to take. There are movements. Black Lives Matter, as a movement, is calling for the defunding of police. What they're saying is we need to make better choices with how money is being spent. When someone is in need of a wellness check or a mental health check, money, financing and support should go to mental health workers and health care workers, not the police. Is the government prepared to fund and prioritize health care workers over the police?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, the member quite rightly began his questions by speaking about systemic racism against indigenous people in Canada, and I would like to speak about that for a moment. I spoke to Perry Bellegarde this morning, because it is such a crucial issue. We can describe it as the original sin of our country. I absolutely agree that we need root and branch reform, including in how policing is done in Canada.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, will the Liberal government commit to a review of the use of force as outlined for the RCMP? Will the Liberals commit to that change?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister and the Minister of Public Safety had many conversations last week with the RCMP. We all accept that
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, will the government commit to ensuring that de-escalation receives priority?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Let me continue, Mr. Chair. Systemic racism exists in all of our federal institutions, including the RCMP. It's time to put an end to it. Let me just say
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, I'm not getting an answer. Will the Prime Minister or the Liberal government commit to something simple and ensure that at the federal level, racial profiling, street checks and carding are expressly prohibited?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, sadly, I can't agree that rooting out systemic racism is going to be simple, but I can agree that racial profiling is absolutely inappropriate. It is not something that we should
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Well, I'm going to try to get another commitment from the government, because they don't seem able to commit to something as clear as ending racial profiling. We know that millions of Canadians in a couple of weeks are going to be faced with the reality of their CERB ending. These families are worried about how they're going to put food on the table, because they can't return to a job. Will the Liberal government commit today so that those families will have some concrete support, yes or no?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, let me be clear, as I was in my previous answer, that our government clearly is opposed to racial profiling. This is a wrong practice and we're very clear about our position there. Now when it comes to the CERB, I absolutely share the concern of the member opposite. The Canadian economy is in its direst state since the Great Depression. We know that all the jobs have not yet come back. We know that Canadian workers, Canadian families, continue to need
The Chair: We'll now pause for a short time to allow staff to change within the safety parameters for the COVID-19 virus, and as we resume, we will go to Ms. Harder.
Ms. Rachael Harder (Lethbridge, CPC): Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister has mandated his ministers, and I quote, to govern in a positive, open and collaborative way. Ironically, as it stands, Parliament is currently closed for business. Opposition parties have little opportunity to hold the ruling party to account, private members' bills cannot be tabled and legislation cannot be debated. Can the Prime Minister, Mr. Trudeau himself, help us understand how all of this fits into his definition of so-called open government?
The Honourable Pablo Rodriguez (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): Well, Mr. Chair, we're here, right? We're here, and the opposition is asking questions. They have the equivalent of eight question periods instead of five to ask questions. They have more time than before, so I don't know why they're not happy about it.
Ms. Rachael Harder: That's like when I'm asking for a full meal and your handing me a few jellybeans and saying, Why aren't you happy with that? Mr. Chair, here's the thing. It's like switching a light on and off when it's convenient for the Prime Minister and for the Liberal Party. That's what they want to do here. That's not Parliament. That's not democracy. When will Mr. Trudeau do the right thing, turn the lights on and get back to work for Canadians?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: I'm really sorry to hear that my colleague's not working. I can assure you, Mr. Chair, on this side of the House, we're all actually working very hard and we're answering the questions from the opposition. Why? It's because it's extremely important. I sat there for seven years asking questions. I understand important
Ms. Rachael Harder: The member opposite knows very well that he is misleading the Canadian public. This is not true Parliament. This is simply a special committee. Here's the thing. On the Liberal Party website, under the platform commitment, it says that Parliament works best when its members are free to do what they have been elected to do, and that is be the voice for their communities and hold the government to account. This is a Liberal document. Did the Prime Minister forget that strengthening Parliament was part of his 2019 platform commitment?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for quoting our excellent platform. That was a very very good document. The thing is, I think we've reached a balance whereby MPs can come from different places, mostly around Ottawa, and ask questions; but also we can have colleagues from across the country asking questions. Why does my colleague think it is better to have only 35 MPs participating instead of 338?
Ms. Rachael Harder: Does the Prime Minister value democracy, or does he still look up to China's basic dictatorship?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Mr. Chair, we're answering all the questions from the opposition, not only from the people in this room, but we're answering
The Chair: It's back to Ms. Harder now.
Ms. Rachael Harder: I'll ask the question again. Does the Prime Minister still value the basic dictatorship of China over Canada's democracy?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: I don't know where the colleague wants to go from here, Mr. Chair. I'd like to know from her why it is not important to her that her colleagues participate directly.
Ms. Rachael Harder: Mr. Trudeau wrote to his ministers and said to them that they continue to raise the bar on openness, effectiveness and transparency. He went on to explain that This means...government that is open by default. We now have a parliament that is currently shut down. Mr. Trudeau has shut it down and has prevented us from being able to do to the good work that Canadians expect us to do. Is this Mr. Trudeau's idea of open by default?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Mr. Chair, do they want to talk about shutting down Parliament? How about the time they prorogued Parliament twicenot only once, but twice? The Conservative government shut down Parliament twice. I was here. I was sitting on the other side of the aisle. It's quite the opposite now. We're taking all the questions. This place is open, and we're answering questions.
The Chair: One moment, please. I haven't acknowledged you yet, Ms. Harder. We've stopped the time there. I want to remind honourable members that questions and answers are being given, and we want to hear both sides. Please keep the heckling down. Ms. Harder, please proceed.
Ms. Rachael Harder: In 2014, the leader of the Liberal Party developed a policy resolution entitled Restoring Trust in Canada's Democracy. That's ironic, because right now, again, Parliament is currently shut down. We are prevented from being able to do the good work that we are expected to do. At the time, the Prime Minister said, Canadians want their Members of Parliament to be effective voices for their communities in Ottawa, and not merely mouthpieces in their communities for an all-too-powerful Prime Minister. Sadly, Mr. Trudeau has become the all-too-powerful prime minister that he once believed should not exist. Why did he change his mind?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Mr. Chair, I'd like to know why my colleague wants to shut down the voices of her colleagues who could not speak and could not participate in this room. Mr. Chair, how would we vote on private members' bills, for example? As you know, it is not a government vote or a party vote; it's per row. You want to come back? Are you going to acceptMr. Chair, through youthat we have electronic voting, yes or no?
The Chair: We'll go on to Mr. Genuis.
Mr. Garnett Genuis: Mr. Chair, we know that the Minister of Foreign Affairs has champagne tastes and London flats, but it's his champagne mortgages that Canadians are concerned about. Specifically, why did the minister only disclose the complete extent of his personal debt to the Chinese government on June 4 of this year?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Mr. Chair, as you know, since the minister entered politics, his two mortgages and other liabilities and assets have been fully disclosed to the Ethics Commissioner and placed on the online public registry. It's public, Mr. Chair. It's public.
Mr. Garnett Genuis: Now it's public and it's terrible. When will the foreign affairs minister be here to answer these questions himself?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Mr. Chair, it's always been public. We're in the middle of a pandemic here, trying to help Canadians, and the best they can do is ask questions about
The Chair: We will go back to Mr. Genuis.
Mr. Garnett Genuis: When the minister owes over a million dollars to the Chinese government, people have a right to ask him questions. When will the Minister of Foreign Affairs show up?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: The minister shows up every day, Mr. Chair. He shows up and works for Canadians. Once again, those are public documents. Everything the minister did is public. I still don't know why they ask
The Chair: We'll now go back to Mr. Genuis.
Mr. Garnett Genuis: Mr. Chair, he doesn't even have to come to the House. All he has to do is appear on the screen. Where is the minister? Why is he hiding? Why won't he answer questions about his personal debt to the Chinese government?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Mr. Chair, if he goes online he's going to get the information.
Mr. Garnett Genuis: Mr. Chair, the minister is hiding. Let's ask some specific questions about their China policy. What is the impact on the decision-making? Three-quarters of Canadians don't want Huawei involved in our 5G network. Will the minister put the interests of Canadians ahead of the interests of his creditors and say no to Huawei?
Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry): Mr. Chair, when it comes to 5G deployment, we are right now currently undergoing a comprehensive review. We have been absolutely clear with allies and with Canadians that we never have and never will compromise Canadians' national interests.
Mr. Garnett Genuis: Mr. Chair, that is not an answer, and it is completely out of step with what our allies have already recognized. Reports are emerging of multiple deadly viruses exported from Winnipeg's microbiology laboratory to the Wuhan Institute of Virology right before scientists were expelled for policy breaches. In spite of that, scientific co-operation between Canadian institutions and the military-affiliated Wuhan Institute of Virology is continuing. Why hasn't the government put in place new guidelines to prevent the export of sensitive pathogens and information to China?
Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Mr. Chair, he's right that in 2019 the National Microbiology Laboratory shared lab samples with the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The National Microbiology Laboratory routinely shares samples with other labs to help advance the international community's understanding of viruses and the research that is ongoing around those viruses. There are strict protocols in place for these transfers, and these samples were transported according to Canadian laws and regulations.
Mr. Garnett Genuis: Mr. Chair, I think Canadians would be concerned to hear that it's routine to transport viruses to Chinese military-affiliated labs. When Champagne was the parliamentary secretary for finance, the government decided to give hundreds of millions of dollars to the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, bankrolling Chinese state-controlled development projects in Asia with weak standards in labour, human rights and environment. Will the minister put Canadian taxpayers ahead of his personal creditors and support a pullout from the Communist Party-controlled development bank?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Once again, Mr. Chair, my colleague is trying to connect the dots, and I don't know exactly where he is going from here, but everything is public. There's a thing called Google. He can go on it and check the information.
Mr. Garnett Genuis: Mr. Chair, the public can listen to this. I'm sure this exchange will also be available on Google, and the public can draw their own conclusions. We have failures on 5G, failures when it comes to the transport of deadly viruses and failures when it comes to giving over $400 million to the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. It's clear that the Bank of China's investment in Minister Champagne is paying off. It's time for the minister to settle his debt with the Communist government and not settle it on the backs of Canadians. When will the minister be here in the House and answer questions about this mortgage?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: My colleague should be cautious with what he is saying in the House, Mr. Chair. This is serious stuff. He should be careful about what he says. The minister is actually working extremely hard for all Canadians and is doing his job correctly, Mr. Chair. We're talking about public information. Once again, let him go to Google and google it. That's it.
The Chair: Now we'll go to Mr. Barrett.
Mr. Michael Barrett: Canada's ambassador to the United Nations sent a letter last week to all member states of the UN promising that Canada would consider providing more funding for UNRRA, the same UNRRA that is a front for Hamas, which allows weapons of terror to be stored in schools and provides textbooks that call for the destruction of Israel. Do these Liberals have no shame when it comes to their quest for a seat on the UN Security Council?
Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank the honourable member for that question. We know that at this time Canada must show leadership in the face of global challenges. More than ever, Canada is playing a positive role by being a champion in diversity and inclusion, supporting the global fight against COVID-19, addressing climate change, leading peace and security efforts and helping the most vulnerable. A seat on the Security Council will allow Canada to be a strong voice for a fairer, more inclusive and prosperous
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Barrett.
Mr. Michael Barrett: Mr. Chair, I received a letter from Bob Anderson this week, who's advocating for his neighbours like Jean Grevelding, who owns a cottage at Butternut Bay. Like many people, Jean is an American who owns a property on our side of the border. These people are taxpaying members of our communities. These folks have plans in place to follow all Canadian quarantine rules. They're concerned about leaving their properties uncared for over the summer. Will folks like Jean be allowed to cross the border to check on their properties this summer?
Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Of course, our priority is and always has been and always must be the protection of the health and safety of Canadians. That's why we put in place these restrictions for non-essential travel and have required, through the Public Health Agency of Canada, a 14-day quarantine. I don't know the specifics of the person for whom you advocate, but we want to make sure that if they come into Canada, it is for an essential purpose and that they do it safely and respect the quarantine that has been put in place.
Mr. Michael Barrett: With nine branches throughout my riding, the Royal Canadian Legion offers a great deal to veterans and rural communities alike. They have been experiencing hardship and a loss of revenue, to the point where they may be forced to shut their doors. The Zone G2 commander and local mayors such as Roger Haley have reached out to me expressing their dire need. Will the government offer support to Legions across the country so they can continue to carry out their vital work for our veterans?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Yes, we have done a lot to help support groups like the Legions. There is a $350-million emergency community support fund. If they're supplying any help to people regarding COVID, this fund is there. Indeed, we're doing everything we can to make sure that we help the Legions and other groups that do so much to help veterans right across the country.
Mr. Michael Barrett: On May 21, the minister stated that her team was working as quickly as it could to fill the gaps in CEBA. It has now been three weeks, and many business owners, such as mortgage broker Corinna Smith-Gatcke, are still left in the lurch amid the delays, which are pushing businesses closer to shutting their doors for good. Will these businesses have access to CEBA before it's too late for them?
Hon. Mary Ng: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank the honourable member for that really important question on our Canadian small businesses. Those businesses can absolutely have access to the loan at their financial institution this Friday, and I would encourage them to go and see their bank or credit union. I want businesses to know that nothing is more important for us than making sure they get the support they need during this difficult time.
Mr. Michael Barrett: The County Road 43 expansion project is critical for my riding and the region as a whole. This project will widen the road, increasing safety for the 18,000 motorists who travel the road every day. It's been 334 days since the provincial and local governments announced funding, but there has been nothing from this Liberal government. It's been 181 days since Minister McKenna told me her staff were reviewing the project. Today, there is still nothing, and for the last month the minister's team has not even found the time to respond to my request for an update. Will Minister McKenna finally stop with the delays and commit to funding this project today?
Hon. Catherine McKenna (Minister of Infrastructure and Communities): Mr. Chair, as the member opposite knows, we work with provinces and territories to advance our infrastructure investments. We're making investments across the country. They are making a real difference in people's lives. We're always happy to work with members of Parliament, but they must also work with provinces and territories so that projects are advanced by them to our office.
The Chair: We'll now continue with Mrs. Wagantall.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall (YorktonMelville, CPC): Thank you, Chair. Through you, has Mr. MacAulay read ombudsman Dalton's May 2020 report, Financial Compensation for Canadian Veterans: A comparative analysis of benefit regimes?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr. Chair, I apologize, but I'll have to ask my honourable colleague to repeat the question.
The Chair: Mrs. Wagantall, we'll freeze the time so that there's no extra time taken.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Thank you, Chair. My question was whether Mr. MacAulay has read ombudsman Dalton's May 2020 report, Financial Compensation for Canadian Veterans: A comparative analysis of benefit regimes.
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate my honourable colleague's question. Of course, I appreciate Mr. Dalton's input and all that he has done for veterans. We've discussed it many times. I've done everything and worked with him in order to make sure that we bring the proper compensation to veterans
The Chair: We'll go back to Mrs. Wagantall.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: As a result of that study, are the financial outcomes Canada seeks to provide for ill and injured veterans now clearly defined within the Department of Veterans Affairs?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr. Chair, as the member would know, I am to bring a report to the veterans affairs committee, and there are a number of things done in order to make sure that report is
The Chair: We'll go back to Mrs. Wagantall.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Then I would suggest that we get our committee up and going as it should be. Where are these financial directions published?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Well, of course, lockdown, but just under $90 million that the government put in supplementary estimates to make sure we address the backlog for Veterans Affairs. It's a major help
The Chair: We'll go back to Mrs. Wagantall.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Minister, are Canadian Armed Forces members provided with a copy of this document?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr. Chair, my honourable colleague would have to ask the Canadian Armed Forces that question.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: There are three different providing lifetime benefits for ill and injured veterans. In Ombudsman Dalton's recent report, did any one of these three provide the best compensation in all nine scenarios that were studied?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Of course, as she knows, there's been a lot of work done in order to make sure that we provide the proper compensation to veterans. We're working very hard, with a lot of help from Mr. Dalton, to make sure that the appropriate
The Chair: We'll now continue with Mrs. Wagantall.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: In the undisclosed settlement of Sean Bruyea's legal case against Seamus O'Regan and the Liberal government, a joint statement says ...Canadians, especially all Veterans and their families, are encouraged to enter the public debate about policies and programs that affect our Veterans and their families. Does Mr. MacAulay agree with this statement?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: I can assure you that anybody is welcome to enter any discussion on compensation of veterans. We're always open to what we can do in order to make sure that we provide appropriate compensation. I don't think the term would be appropriate, but it would provide some compensation to veterans who truly deserve it. They defend our democracy
The Chair: We'll go back to Ms. Wagantall. Oh, I'm sorry
Ms. Andranne Larouche: Mr.Chair, I have a point of order. The interpretation hasn't worked for a few interventions. It's difficult to follow the exchange between the hon. member and the minister.
The Chair: We're having a problem with the interpretation. Minister and Ms. Wagantall, you are joining us virtually. I'm wondering if you have the right language on at the bottom of your screen. We'll start with that for troubleshooting.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: I have English.
The Chair: Very good. Minister MacAulay, what do you have?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: I have English, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: Very good. Then we'll check on our side. Ms.Larouche, did I understand correctly that the interpretation didn't work for both speakers?
Ms. Andranne Larouche: The sound didn't allow the interpreters to do their job. It seemed to be a problem with the sound.
The Chair: In that case, I would ask both members to maybe put their mike a little bit close to their mouth. We'll see how that works. I'm looking at the screen, and I notice the mike is a little bit far. Could we bend it in a little bit more? I appreciate that. Thank you for your patience. We'll give it another try. Ms. Wagantall, please go ahead.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: On a point of order, quite often while I'm trying to speak, there are lots of other voices in the background.
The Chair: I would ask everyone to please be on mute, as well as for anyone in the chamber to please refrain from speaking loudly. Just whisper among yourselves if you have something to say. We'll take this one from the top. We have a minute and 45 seconds left. Ms. Wagantall, please proceed with your next question.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: You said next question, so we're not going backwards, Chair?
The Chair: Did we have an answer from Minister MacAulay? No? We'll go to Minister MacAulay to finish up the answer. We'll start at 27 seconds, freeze the clock and hear his answer. Then, because of all of the confusion, we'll start at one minute and 45 seconds when we get going again.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Should I repeat the question, sir?
The Chair: Please do. The clock is frozen. After we go through the question and the answer, we'll start the clock again. Mr. Wagantall, please repeat the question.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Thank you, Chair. In the undisclosed settlement to Sean Bruyea's legal case against Seamus O'Regan and the Liberal government, a joint statement says, Canadians, especially all Veterans and their families, are encouraged to enter the public debate about policies and programs that affect our Veterans and their families. Does Mr. MacAulay agree with this statement?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr. Chair, I appreciate my honourable colleague's question and concern. Of course I agree. Anybody is quite open to indicate whatever they wish in order to make sure we provide as appropriate a compensation as possible. You can never totally compensate veterans truly for what they deserve, but we want to make sure we provide the best compensation possible. That's what we will do and want to do.
The Chair: Ms. Wagantall, we will start the clock again. You have one minute and 45 seconds remaining. Please proceed.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: If that's the case, is Minister MacAulay aware of the practice of red-flagging veterans' files?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr. Chair, I'm not aware.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Since the deputy minister has indicated that he runs the department, will the minister ask him for the names of veterans and the dates and the reasons that they are, or have been, red-flagged by VAC?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr. Chair, I would certainly ask any veteran or anybody who has a concern to contact my office. I will do anything I can to make sure that the veterans
The Chair: We'll go back to Ms. Wagantall.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Do the most ill and injured still receive from the pension up to $300,000 less for life?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr. Chair, as you know and as the Prime Minister indicated when the pension for life was put in place, it was stated that if anybody receives lessthe Prime Minister himself indicated it quite clearlythat must be adjusted.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: For veterans in similar circumstances, should the date of their application for compensation be a factor in determining whether they're treated equitably?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Yes, of course, the date is when the compensation would start. Of course, it's very important and very appropriate.
The Chair: Now we will proceed to Mr. Lloyd.
Mr. Dane Lloyd (Sturgeon RiverParkland, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Retired Major Mark Campbell in my riding of Sturgeon RiverParkland lost both legs in the line of duty in Afghanistan. He is an avid sport shooter, but understandably, due to his disability, he is very limited in the kinds of firearms he can use, and all of these firearms have now been banned under the Liberal OIC. My question to the Minister of Public Safety is this: Did their department do a legal analysis and consider the section 15 charter rights of disabled Canadians not to be discriminated against when they passed their OIC?
Hon. Bill Blair: Yes, there was a very thorough analysis done by the justice department to ensure that the prohibitions we put in place were, in fact, charter compliant. Let me also say, Mr. Chair, how important it was that we prohibited weapons that were not designed for sporting purposes at all. In fact, they were designed for soldiers to use in combat. They have no place in a civil society. We have prohibited them, and we believeand this has been echoed by many people across the countrythat this will make Canadians safer.
Mr. Dane Lloyd: Mr. Chair, is the minister aware that the AR-15 is the most popular sporting rifle in Canada, and is he aware that disabled veterans like Major Mark Campbell are unable to participate in the sport of sport shooting because of his OIC?
Hon. Bill Blair: I can assure the member that what I am aware of is that the AR-15 and other weapons like them have been used in mass killings in Canada on many occasions, such as at cole Polytechnique, at Dawson College, again at the Quebec mosque and in Moncton. The AR-15s in particular were also used at the terrible tragedy in places like Sandy Hook, where a bunch of kids were killed, so there is no place for
The Chair: We will go to Mr. Lloyd.
Mr. Dane Lloyd: Mr. Chair, it has been months since the Liberals shut down this Parliament and months since the Minister of Finance should have presented a budget or at least an economic update to Canadians. Since then we have seen billions spent with little oversight and no plan. The minister says that he needs certainty before he can table a budget. Well, that didn't stop Stephen Harper and the Conservatives from tabling a budget in the depth of the last great recession. When are these Liberals finally going to take their job seriously and table an economic update?
Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance): Mr. Chair, we're taking this very seriously. We're working for Canadians and bringing forward supports to make sure that businesses, workers and Canadians can put food on the table and pay their rent. We will continue to support Canadians, and when we have a clear projection to present, we will do that.
Mr. Dane Lloyd: Mr. Chair, the results are in, and businesses aren't happy with the so-called support programs from these Liberals. In fact, the oil and gas industry has been shut out of many of these economic programs. When is the government going to recognize that their business support plans have been an absolute failure with only a fraction of the billions promised being accessible to businesses?
Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Chair, our government has taken swift and immediate action to support our sector throughout this challenging time. We had the BCAP, which is critically important to providing liquidity to support the SMEs that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. It has taken an enormous team effort. People are working around the clock to get money where it needs to be. We are helping hard-working Canadians, small businesses and large businesses right across the country, but in particular in our energy sector.
Mr. Dane Lloyd: Mr. Chair, I'm pleased to see the Minister of Natural Resources online. He tweeted recently to praise the Alberta Carbon Trunk Line and the North West Redwater Partnership refinery in my riding. Can the minister tell us what, if any, support they have given to the innovative carbon capture and sequestration technology in this country?
Hon. Seamus O'Regan: Mr. Chair, we see carbon capture and sequestration as an integral part of lowering emissions, making emissions more competitive and making our oil and gas industry more competitive. We're seeing where the investment dollars are going. They are going to jurisdictions that are committed to lowering emissions. Obviously, this government is committing to net zero.
Mr. Dane Lloyd: I note that the minister couldn't name a single example of government support for carbon capture, utilization and sequestration technology. We have spent a lot of time talking about the COVID-19 pandemic, but Canadians are living with another horrific reality, that being the intensifying opioid overdose epidemic. Reports indicate that in the past four years, 14,000 Canadians have died, and the numbers during COVID-19 have been skyrocketing, with British Columbia seeing a 39% increase this year alone. I know this because I've lost a family member to a fentanyl overdose. When is the government going to take this scourge seriously and take action to save the lives of Canadians?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, I share the member's deep sadness about the number of lives we've lost to opioid overdose. Our government has been steadily making it easier for people who live with substance use to access medications to treat substance use, such as prescription Suboxone and methadone. We have made it easier to rapidly establish safe injection sites in communities and have supported community-based projects that work with people who are using substances. We need to understand that this is a complex issue, and we need to support people to get the help they need.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes (AlgomaManitoulinKapuskasing, NDP)): The hon. member for Thrse-DeBlainville.
Ms. Louise Chabot (Thrse-De Blainville, BQ): MadamChair, I will come back to the bill introduced last week. As parliamentarians, we felt like we were watching a very bad play, as I imagine the public did. I say that it was theatre, even though it shouldn't be in this place. The government decided to stage a play and act alone and, unfortunately, there were several acts missing. A very important part of this bill was about supporting people with disabilities in this time of crisis. However, the government did not see fit to negotiate with the opposition parties, even though it is in a minority position. Despite this arrogance, the Bloc Qubcois proposed solutions. One of the things we proposed was to split the bill so that we could give this support to people with disabilities, but the Conservatives did not want to do that. We came back and asked for time to negotiate and give support to people with disabilities, but the government defeated the motion. We asked that the House be recalled today so that we could pass this part of the bill concerning support for people with disabilities, but we are still in the dark. Why are we abandoning people with disabilities?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development): I thank the hon. member for her question. We know this pandemic has deeply affected the lives and health of all Canadians and has disproportionately affected Canadians with disabilities in particular. From the very beginning, we've taken a disability-inclusive approach to our emergency response to ensure that Canadians with disabilities get the support they need. That is why we announced a one-time payment of $600 for persons with disabilities to address these expenses. This will go a long way toward helping Canadians with disabilities. We encourage and urge all parties in the opposition to support this measure. We're confident that this measure, along with other investments, will benefit Canadians with disabilities, and we hope to get the support of the other parties very soon.
Ms. Louise Chabot: MadamChair, I remind you that this measure wasn't passed because we weren't allowed to do so. A measure to help people with disabilities has been put in an omnibus bill. We've tried here, in the House, to provide the means to give that support, so I ask again, can the government be counted on to give a response to people with disabilities?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: MadamChair, it was absolutely not an omnibus bill. It contained assistance for the disabled, of course, but it also contained assistance for our seasonal workers, as well as a number of other measures that the Bloc Qubcois opposed. They refused to debate and, when the question of splitting the bill came up, the Conservatives refused to do that. That is why there is no bill at the moment, and that is very unfortunate.
Ms. Louise Chabot: It was a Bloc Qubcois proposal to split the bill. The government had not thought of it, but they found that it was a good idea. Let me return to the attack. This bill proposed changes to the wage subsidy program, it was supposed to make the CERB more flexible, it proposed fines for fraudsters and, since there was a little section about a benefit for the disabled, the government took it for granted that we would support it without any negotiations with the parties. However, we set one very important condition: that the Liberal Party must get its hands out of taxpayers' pockets in terms of the wage subsidy.
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: MadamChair, as we listen to the Bloc Qubcois members, we might think that they invented peanut butter and apple pie. This bill contained a number of measures that all Quebeckers and all Canadians needed, but the Bloc Qubcois refused to debate it. No, we did not follow the Bloc Qubcois' example in splitting the bill; we had thought of it a long time previously. We have not been able to do that because of the Conservatives. Because of them, we cannot help those living with disabilities.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Ms.Chabot, you have 45seconds left.
Ms. Louise Chabot: We asked on a number of occasions for the House to be able to sit starting today to pass the part of the bill dealing with those with disabilities. What is the status of that, MadamChair? We have not heard about it since.
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: MadamChair, my colleague knows very well that things are not as simple as that. There are procedural mechanisms unique to the House. I hope that, one day, we will be able to pass this bill and be able to provide assistance for those living with disabilities. I hope that the Conservatives will change their minds and give us their support.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go now to the honourable member for Don Valley East, Ms. Ratansi.
Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll be sharing my time with the member for Surrey Centre. Since 2015 our government has been focused on ensuring its policies mitigate the effects of climate change. Several measures have been implemented for phasing out coal, making polluters pay, providing climate incentives, investing in green technologies and much more, which all together have created a climate plan that is doing more to cut pollution than any other in Canada's history. In my riding of Don Valley East, many innovative businesses have benefited from these investments and initiatives. One area of particular interest is our government's work to protect 25% of Canada's land and 25% of its oceans by 2025. Our natural environment is something that Canadians and my constituents care about deeply. Could the minister update this House on the new conservation projects announced on June 5, World Environment Day, and on how our government is protecting our environment?
Hon. Seamus O'Regan: Madam Chair, protecting nature is an important part of how we will address climate change and the very real challenges it presents. That's why on June 5, World Environment Day, our government announced over 60 conservation projects under development across Canada. These projects are funded through the Canada Nature Fund's target 1 challenge initiative. They'll conserve Canadian nature and biodiversity and protect species at risk, enhance ecological integrity and connectivity, and enhance the size of Canada's vast network of protected areas. Nearly half of these projects are indigenous-led, with the aim of creating indigenous-protected conserved areas. Madam Chair, projects like these move us closer to our goal of protecting 25% of Canada's lands and oceans by 2025. By working together in partnership with the provinces, territories, municipalities, indigenous peoples and Canadians, together we can protect our natural environment for generations to come.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Ms. Ratansi, since you have 25 seconds left, we will go to the honourable member for Surrey Centre.
Mr. Randeep Sarai (Surrey Centre, Lib.): Madam Chair, there are many small and medium-sized businesses in my riding of Surrey Centre. Many have been impacted by COVID-19. They saw a decrease in business or needed to close their doors completely in order to adhere to public safety measures to manage the spread of COVID-19. These measures helped keep our most vulnerable citizens safe and ensured that our hospital and health care providers did not become overwhelmed with a sharp spike in cases. Thanks to our government's COVID-19 emergency response, many of these businesses have been able to keep their employees and access important liquidity through the Canada emergency business account, which provides loans to small businesses and non-profits, and the Canada emergency wage subsidy, which is helping businesses to keep and rehire their employees while their revenues are down by providing up to 75% of wages for up to 24 weeks. As we begin to reopen the economy and Canadians across the country return to the job market, those benefits will be even more important to help businesses and industries rehire their staff and make important adjustments to align with public health guidelines to gradually increase their operations. Can the minister please update the committee on how many Canadian businesses have taken advantage of CEBA and CEWS since applications for each have been opened?
Hon. Mary Ng: Madam Chair, I want to begin by thanking the member for Surrey Centre for all the work he does to support his constituents and small businesses. Canadians across the country need to know our government has been working tirelessly and will continue to work tirelessly on their behalf. This is why we put in place the important programs to help them get through this crisis during this difficult time, programs such as the wage subsidy program. We know that in so many businesses the employees are often like extended family members. The wage subsidy has helped these businesses keep their employees on the payroll and are now helping in their rehiring as they slowly and safely restart. There are 348,000 businesses being helped with the wage subsidy program, and this means that 2.6 million workers are being helped. Businesses are also being helped through the interest-free $40,000 loan they can access through CEBA to help stay afloat and pay their expenses during this crisis. I'm pleased to inform this House that to date more than 669,000
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go to the honourable member for St. John's East.
Mr. Jack Harris: Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll be splitting my time with my colleague, the member for LondonFanshawe. Madam Chair, with so many recent reports and videos of police using force, sometimes deadly force, and violence against indigenous and black people in Canada, I've called for the public safety committee to reconvene. If the members agree, will the minister come to the committee and provide concrete answers as to how the government intends to address racism inherent in Canada's law enforcement, and in particular the RCMP?
Hon. Bill Blair: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I thank my colleague for the question. It's perhaps the most important one facing Canada today. Madam Chair, indigenous people, black Canadians and other racialized people are far too often experiencing systemic racism and disparate outcomes within the entire criminal justice system. In order to respond appropriately, I think it's necessary to begin by acknowledging the lived experience of people who've known bias and discrimination at the hands of the police and our courts and within our prisons. We remain committed to working with all racialized people and all of the members of this House to ensure that we work toward social justice for all Canadians, and I look forward to discussing the member's motion further with him.
Mr. Jack Harris: Will the minister and the government commit to facilitating such a meeting of this committee virtually?
Hon. Bill Blair: Madam Chair, the decisions of the committee are the committee's, so I'm sure that this will be a discussion within the committee, but if called, I will certainly be pleased to come with my officials to provide the committee with whatever support and information it needs to contribute to this very important discussion.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Mr. Harris, you have 40 seconds.
Mr. Jack Harris: In light of what we've seen with Chief Adam in Fort McMurray and the RCMP accepting that the actions were reasonable, will the minister commit to a full review of the use of force by the RCMP, in particular the philosophy, tactics and training that is given to RCMP officers in dealing with the public?
Hon. Bill Blair: I thank the member and I want to assure him, first of all, that this is work that is ongoing, not just in the RCMP but throughout the police community. May I also take this opportunity, Madam Chair, to say that I think all police training has to begin with one very important principle, and that's the preservation of all life and the respect for all Canadians. We also know the importance of de-escalation training. We're committed to continuing to work with indigenous communities, racialized communities and with police services and all participants in the criminal justice system to make sure that it is fair for all Canadians.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go to the honourable member for LondonFanshawe, Ms. Mathyssen.
Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (LondonFanshawe, NDP): Madam Chair, we need more justice for black, indigenous and racialized people in Canada. They can't be asked to keep waiting. This government recognizes that systemic racism exists but refuses to collect race-based data that would allow us to quantify and truly address this injustice. We need data to protect Canadians. When will this government do the right thing and start collecting race-based data?
Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth): Madam Chair, our government agrees that it's important that we collect data, and that's exactly why, in the anti-racism secretariat and the anti-racism strategy, there is a commitment to have money go to Statistics Canada to collect race-based data. We look forward to working with all members to ensure it happens.
Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen: Madam Chair, we know that Statistics Canada will start to collect job numbers based on race. This will allow us to identify systemic racism where it is and where we need to ensure a fair and more equal job market for black, indigenous and racialized people in Canada. Why is this government refusing to follow suit so we can tackle systemic racism everywhere, in every sector?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Chair, I'd like to thank my honourable colleague for her question. She's absolutely correct in her assessment that we need to collect more data, reliable data, data that will help us deal with some of the challenges we're seeing with systemic discrimination, but, more broadly, we want to make sure that we continue to engage with an anti-racism strategy that will allow us to collect that disaggregated data. That is why we allocated $6.2 million to that initiative through Statistics Canada, but we know we must do more and we will do more.
Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen: We know that all people are susceptible to catching COVID-19, but health authorities are clear that parts of cities like Montreal and Toronto have been more impacted than others. For black and racialized people living in these cities, this data is a matter of life and death. Will the government collect and share disaggregated data so we can identify and erase systemic racism, yes or no?
Hon. Bardish Chagger: Madam Chair, making decisions based on science and evidence is essential for our government. We took that practice from day one. It is exactly the step we will take moving forward and that's why we are making those investments to ensure that data exists. We are working across all departments. My mandate letter is public. I look forward to continuing to work not only with all ministers, departments and agencies, but all allies and all parties to get this work done.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Mr.Blaney, the honourable member for BellechasseLes EtcheminsLvis, has the floor.
Hon. Steven Blaney (BellechasseLes EtcheminsLvis, CPC): Thank you, MadamChair. Last week, my plumber told me that, each time Justin Trudeau comes down the steps to make announcements totalling several billion dollars, he feels like someone is rifling through his pockets. My question is simple and goes to the Minister of Finance: where is this money coming from?
Hon. Mona Fortier: MadamChair, I would like to thank my honourable colleague for his question. Currently, the health and safety of Canadians are our top priorities. We have implemented an emergency economic plan to support Canadians, workers and companies. We will continue to support them during this crisis.
Hon. Steven Blaney: The answer I would have liked is simple: we are borrowing the money and we are going to have to pay it back one day. That is another Liberal craze: they borrow money, they make campaign promises, and off they go. Under the Conservative government, the Chantier Davie in Lvis had 1,700workers for the supply ship Asterix. In the election campaign, the Liberals promised icebreakers. When are the Liberals going to award the icebreaker contracts to the Chantier Davie?
Hon. David Lametti (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada): MadamChair, we are very proud of the Chantier Davie and we completely understand its role in the system. We are currently assessing those requests. We are going to establish the process for the polar ice-breaker, which is essential for the work of the Coast Guard in northern communities, and we are going to make sure that
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Mr.Blaney has the floor.
Hon. Steven Blaney: The workers do not need words; they need contracts and jobs. The same is true for young people who want to work. There is money in the Canada summer jobs program: in my constituency alone, $150,000has been approved. Companies want young people to work and want to hire them. What is the minister waiting for in order to confirm those positions? In my constituency, and everywhere else in the country, our young people want to work. What is the government waiting for in order to send some cash to the Canada summer jobs program?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, we are proud of the Canada summer jobs program. We are introducing flexibilities into the system to enable employers to be able to hire summer students. We recognize the importance of this program to provide both financial resources and necessary experience for young people. We believe in continuing to invest in the Canada summer jobs program.
Hon. Steven Blaney: The workers, the young people and the employers have been waiting for weeks. The money is available; where is the announcement? MadamChair, our young people are not the only ones who want to work. There are also the temporary foreign workers. Let me use Jessie Gito as an example; he has been working at Plate2000 in Saint-Anselme for years. When the time came to renew his work permit, he found out that he has to have some biometric tests. But he cannot get them because the offices are closed. Is the minister going to allow Jessie Gito and the thousands of other temporary foreign workers who want to work to be able to do so until the government biometric testing centres reopen?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, it is important for the honourable member to recognize that we are in the early recovery stage of the pandemic. Employers are slowly reopening businesses. We will ensure that we support both our students and our temporary foreign workers to make sure we get the recovery right. We will continue to invest in the Canada summer jobs program. We've introduced flexibilities into the program to ensure that employers are able to take advantage of the program and give opportunities to young people.
Hon. Steven Blaney: It is very simple. Jessie Gito is a foreign worker, who is in a company that provides an essential service. He needs a decision that will let him go to work, rather than staying home and doing nothing. Then, when the government's biometric testing centres are open again, he will gladly go to one. Young people want to work in agriculture as well, and the minister has told us that the government wants young people working and that their files will be processed as quickly as possible. She wants to create 700positions and she knows that people can fill in an application on a first-come first-served basis. Of those 700positions, how many have been confirmed to date? The good weather has arrived, the corn is starting to grow, and this is the time when farmers need the young workers.
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food): MadamChair, the program for young workers in agriculture is open. I also encourage agricultural producers to register for it. This is a program that is not only intended to provide summer jobs, but also to interest young people in making a career in agriculture. As I have said before, the department is processing files as quickly as possible. Each employer will have an answer very shortly.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will now take a short break. Okay, we are ready to start again. We will go to the honourable member for BarrieSpringwaterOro-Medonte.
Mr. Doug Shipley (BarrieSpringwaterOro-Medonte, CPC): Thank you, Chair. Over the course of the pandemic, has the government been using all avenues possible to source much-needed PPE in Canada?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Chair, we have been very clear that we have a made-in-Canada initiative that has engaged companies across the country. Over 700 companies have retooled and scaled up their operations for personal protective equipment to help front-line health care workers.
Mr. Doug Shipley: Madam Chair, I need to ask very quickly which ministry and minister are responsible for the sourcing of PPE in Canada.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Chair, this is a collective effort. I work with the Minister of Health and the minister for procurement , and we coordinate with the provinces and territories to make sure there are appropriate levels of PPE to help front-line health care workers and essential workers across the country.
Mr. Doug Shipley: Thank you for that clarification. That will make this question all the more pertinent. My riding of BarrieSpringwaterOro-Medonte is the home of Southmedic Inc. Southmedic is a renowned medical supply business. For over 37 years, it has provided front-line health care workers with an extensive line of PPE and other essential products required when dealing with respiratory illnesses. This company specializes in respiratory illness equipment. Southmedic currently employs over 700 people, and it has been recognized as one of Canada's best-managed companies by Deloitte on numerous occasions. Since the beginning of the pandemic, both I and the member for BarrieInnisfil have been attempting to obtain some assistance for Southmedic from the federal government. Calls and emails were falling on deaf ears. In early May, I wrote a letter to Minister Anand outlining the situation. I received a letter back from the minister dated May 27 indicating that this issue of Southmedic falls under the mandate of the Minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. I have heard nothing more. When will the federal government reach out and help this great Canadian company and therefore ensure that all front-line workers will have the proper PPE they require?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Chair, I'd like to thank my honourable colleague for his question. He knows full well that this is a very challenging time. That is why we had a call to action to engage Canadians right across the country. Since then, we've seen over 6,000 companies step up to offer solutions and ideas, and over 700 companies have retooled their efforts. I acknowledge that some companies are still engaging with the government, and we'll continue to explore all possible options to make sure we continue to procure the necessary levels of personal protective equipment to protect Canadians and to protect front-line health care workers. That has always been our priority. I want to thank the outstanding Canadian companies that have come forward and have helped us in this endeavour. We continue to look forward to working with them.
Mr. Doug Shipley: Thank you for that answer. Just to follow up, there's no retooling required at this company. They could have been up and going very quickly. They just needed a little assistance at the beginning. Moving on to a different issue, while walking to my office this morning, I stopped at my local small family-run coffee shop and was discussing the current economic situation with the two owners of the establishment. They indicated they are having a very tough time surviving this economic downturn. The only thing keeping them hopeful is that soon the public service will start returning to work, and therefore their business will begin to return. Could the government please give us some indication as to what the plans are for returning the civil service back to work safely, and when?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board): Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm delighted to answer this question. This is a very important topic, but I'd like to take the opportunity first to thank our public servants, who have worked very hard in the last few weeks, both personally and professionally. In fact, today is a wonderful day to say that, because today is the start of National Public Service Week. That's one more reason to thank them for their dedicated work. They are not going to go back to work. They've been at work for the last few monthsin different circumstances, but they have been working very hard to deliver the services and the support Canadians need and deserve.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Next we'll go to the honourable member for SelkirkInterlakeEastman, Mr. Bezan.
Mr. James Bezan (SelkirkInterlakeEastman, CPC): Thank you, Madam Chair. My questions are for the Minister of National Defence. First of all, I want to thank the great men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces for the fantastic job they're doing in Operation LASER, serving on the front lines battling COVID-19. Can the Minister of National Defence give the House an update on exactly where we are at with the number of Canadian Armed Forces members who have been infected with COVID-19?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence): Madam Chair, I want to echo the member opposite's comments in thanking our Canadian Armed Forces members. Currently, we have 13 active cases in the Canadian Armed Forces, but in the long-term care facilities we currently have 50 cases. No member has been currently hospitalized. We have also conducted very thorough reviews of our protection protocols as well.
Mr. James Bezan: Through you, Chair, Minister Sajjan, does that number of active cases include the active cases that are in long-term care facilities right now in Operation LASER?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Madam Chair, as I stated, the 50 cases are strictly from the long-term care facilities. The 13 cases I mentioned are not in the long-term care facilities. Just to give the actual clarification, no member has been currently hospitalized.
Mr. James Bezan: In those numbers, Madam Chair, can Mr. Sajjan say how many of those cases in long-term care facilities are active and how many are recovered?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Madam Chair, I don't have the exact number. What I can say to break it down further is that in Quebec we currently have 36 and in Ontario we have 14. As well, 36 of the members have been out of isolation. I'll get more details and pass them on directly to the member, Madam Chair.
Mr. James Bezan: Thank you, Minister. Madam Chair, I have a quick question while we're still talking about Operation LASER. The President of the Treasury Board has said, The Canadian Armed Forces will be present as long as their presence is needed in Quebec. This contradicts what Prime Minister Trudeau is saying, which is that we have a hard deadline of June 26 for the withdrawal of our troops for Operation LASER. That means taking our troops out of our long-term care facilities. Minister, is June 26 the hard date for the winding down of Operation LASER?
Hon. Bill Blair: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I'm delighted to have the opportunity to clarify for the House. We've been in very extensive discussions with the Province of Quebec, with my counterpart Minister Guilbault, and we are working very diligently to ensure we have a sustained, appropriate response to the request from Quebec for assistance. That response will result in a transition from the currently deployed Canadian Armed Forces to the deployment of paid volunteers, trained personnel who will take on the important role of providing services to those Canadians who need our help in Quebec.
Mr. James Bezan: I'll go back to the Minister of National Defence. The Department of National Defence auditors have called out the Liberal government for mismanagement over the $553-billion investment in our Canadian military through the defence policy. Only three people have been assigned to oversee the rollout of this money. This is a $553-billion investment in our armed forces, and only three people are managing it. Could the minister tell us how that is even possible? Is this the reason that over 100 projects are currently behind schedule?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Madam Chair, first of all, I want to highlight the unprecedented investment that we're making in defence. We have conducted internal reviews of our procurement. The report the member opposite is talking about is from the previous year. This is the ongoing work we're doing to make sure that we make procurement better. When it comes to the management of this, it's conducted by me and the minister of procurement . We are working toward making our procurement even better. We have already streamlined some aspects of our procurement and we'll continue to do more as well.
Mr. James Bezan: Minister Sajjan, you've had this report since November of 2019. You've been rolling out this plan since 2017. Only three people are overseeing an expenditure of $553 billion. This is taxpayers' money. Are we going to see more cuts because you have been unable to actually roll out these dollars?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Madam Chair, I can assure you we're not going to be cutting. We'll be investing in our defence.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Before I go to the next speaker, I want to remind members that they are to address their questions and comments directly through the chair. We will go now to the honourable member for Fort McMurrayCold Lake, Mr. Yurdiga.
Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurrayCold Lake, CPC): Madam Chair, the Canada summer jobs program has many challenges. I've seen many indigenous communities in my riding rejected for funding even though they had received funding in previous years. Here are a few examples of communities that were rejected: Beaver Lake Cree Nation, Buffalo Lake Mtis Settlement and the Mtis Nation of Alberta, Region 1. The list goes on. Could the Prime Minister explain why so many indigenous communities have been denied funding from the Canada summer jobs program?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, we recognize the important role that the Canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in our community across the country every year. We're working very hard to help employers adapt to the realities of the COVID-19 pandemic and are supporting young Canadians as they begin to look for summer employment. We are introducing increased flexibilities into the Canada summer jobs program to hire youth, while also providing more supports to employers that deliver essential services to Canadians.
Mr. David Yurdiga: Madam Chair, that didn't really answer my question. Why are so many indigenous communities left out of the Canada summer jobs program? This is very important to my community and to communities throughout the province. Will the government investigate why these communities were rejected?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we, of course, value the important role that the Canada summer jobs program plays in all communities, including indigenous communities in Canada. I will certainly have an off-line conversation with the honourable member, if he so wishes, about a particular issue, but I can assure him that in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had to assist employers to introduce flexibilities
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go back to Mr. Yurdiga.
Mr. David Yurdiga: Madam Chair, in my riding, the City of Cold Lake has been in dispute with the federal government for many years over payment in lieu of taxes. My office has sent many letters over the years regarding the PILT dispute. Could the Minister of Public Services and Procurement give me a rough estimate of when I will receive a response from the minister's office to my first letter, from 2017, and my letters from 2018, 2019 and 2020?
Hon. David Lametti: Madam Chair, I can assure the honourable member that I will go to the minister, and we will come back with an answer to his question.
Mr. David Yurdiga: How much longer does the minister intend to perpetuate the ongoing PILT dispute, which is in excess of $11 million, with the City of Cold Lake?
Hon. David Lametti: Madam Chair, once again, I can assure the honourable member that I will speak with the minister and get an answer to his question.
Mr. David Yurdiga: Well, do you know what? I've been writing letters to the department for many years. When you say you're going to get back to me, I really have a hard time believing that. Will the minister agree to follow the prior recommendations of the dispute advisory panel that were accepted by the minister?
Hon. David Lametti: Madam Chair, I can assure the honourable member that I will check with the minister and that she will return to the member in due course.
Mr. David Yurdiga: Madam Chair, the drug Trikafta has been proven to increase the quality of life for 90% of cystic fibrosis patients. Two weeks ago, my office sent a letter to the Minister of Health about the boy in my riding named Cael, who through the special access program is able to get Trikafta in Canada. I requested that the minister use her powers to fast-track Trikafta for commercial use, but I have yet to receive a response back. When will the minister make a decision on Trikafta?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Madam Chair, I'm glad to hear that Cael was able to access Trikafta through the special access program. In fact, that program is very helpful for people who are seeking access to medication that's not currently marketed in Canada. As the member opposite knows, Vertex has not applied to market Trikafta in Canada, but we look forward to their application, and I encourage him to write a letter to the manufacturer to also encourage them.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go now to the honourable member for Vancouver Granville, Ms. Wilson-Raybould.
Hon. Jody Wilson-Raybould (Vancouver Granville, Ind.): Thank you, Chair. I was very troubled to hear that a CBC radio host in the Yukon felt compelled to resign because, as an indigenous person, she could not speak her truth. While we know the Broadcasting Act states that the Canadian broadcasting system should reflect the linguistic duality and multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian society and the special place of indigenous peoples, it would seem there are some challenges. Therefore, does the Minister of Heritage share the concern of some journalists that problems of systemic racism in Canada are still existing within the institution of the CBC, and will the government now acknowledge the need to recognize the jurisdiction of indigenous governments?
Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage): Thank you, Madame Chair; and I thank the member for this important question. As stated by the Prime Minister on numerous occasions, our government recognizes that systemic racism exists in Canada, and we have made a commitment to do everything we can to combat it in whichever organization of the Canadian government.
Hon. Jody Wilson-Raybould: Thank you. When I was in the government, and as a minister, I learned the term red meat issues. I understand these issues to be ones that challenge societal norms, that are not politically expedient to address because they can lose you votes, even though addressing them is morally right and a smart thing to do. Mostly these are issues addressing inequality and the most marginalized in our society. In the justice system, examples include mandatory minimum penalties, defunding police, and even investing in restorative justice. Red-meat issues often become defining issues for society and for governments as the world changes. Surely now these issues are politically less of a consideration than the tragic reality of even more slain indigenous Canadians at the hands of police, or thousands of indigenous people still incarcerated or living in poverty. Will this government please finally commit to the necessary work originally promised in 2015 and repeal in the justice system the vast majority of mandatory minimum penalties, assuring the necessary discretion for judges, and meaningfully invest in restorative justice measures?
Hon. David Lametti: Madame Chair, I thank the honourable member for her question, as well as for her work as Minister of Justice, and indeed my predecessor. This is an important time. This is a time when we recognize systemic racism. This is a time when we recognize systemic over-incarceration of indigenous peoples, of black peoples, in our criminal justice system. This is a time when we need to look at all potential options to reduce what is a shameful overrepresentation in our criminal justice system. Too often racialized peoples and indigenous peoples have experienced prejudice and systemic discrimination in our justice system, and that has to change.
Hon. Jody Wilson-Raybould: I'll go on to another red meat issue. In British Columbia we are in the fifth year of the opioid overdose public health emergency crisis. Sadly, May marks the deadliest month of overdose-related deaths. We are halfway into the year and have currently passed 500 deaths caused by overdose. Many of the deaths are related to COVID-19 measures that have prevented people from accessing supervised consumption sites, so they are overdosing alone. While the provinces welcomed the federal backing of safe supply exemption back in March, it is to expire in September of 2020. Echoing the call of the chief coroner of B.C. and Dr. Henry, more is needed from the federal government, more action. Will the government provide the necessary supports to the province and help support safe supply initiatives in the provinces?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: It's been a pleasure to work with the Province of British Columbia on innovative ways to work on the tragic situation of opioid overdose. I remain committed to working with the province and in fact any province that wants to work towards solutions that treat people who use substances with the dignity they deserve. Madam Chair, this is a complex issue. We're working closely with our partners to make sure that we can prevent more lives from being lost.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go to the honourable member for South OkanaganWest Kootenay, Mr. Cannings.
Mr. Richard Cannings (South OkanaganWest Kootenay, NDP): Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll be splitting my time with the member for SkeenaBulkley Valley. In my riding, Theo's in Penticton is a beloved restaurant. They've been serving great food for 40 years, but now they're struggling, because they don't qualify for the emergency wage subsidy. Why is that? The original owners retired last year and sold it to another operator. The new owner can't use a year-to-year comparison to apply for the wage subsidy because he didn't own the restaurant last spring. He is forced to use receipts from January and February, the darkest doldrums of the restaurant year, to compare with the results from May, traditionally one of their best months. Now he has to compete with other local restaurants that can access the subsidy. When will the government fix this inequity and let Theo's compete and survive?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Madam Chair, the Canada emergency wage subsidy is supporting over 2.5 million workers across the country. To help even more businesses support their workers and rehire people as they reopen, our government is extending the CEWS, and we will continue to extend the CEWS for an additional 12 weeks to August 29 to ensure that Canadian workers continue to have the support they need during these very difficult times. By extending eligibility, our government is ensuring that more Canadian workers in more sectors have the support they need.
Mr. Richard Cannings: The owner just wants to be able to apply for the wage subsidy, and right now he cannot, and he will not be able to. Thousands of other businesses are hit that way as well. I'd like to move on to forestry. Canada's forest sector has been declared essential during this pandemic, but it's been hit hard after a very difficult 2019. Despite soft markets and thousands out of work, government support programs have left many Canadian forest product companies behind. In my riding, the pulp mill in Castlegar is closing for the month of July because local sawmills aren't producing enough wood chips. What is the government going to do to finally support Canadian forestry workers and communities?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The time is almost up, but I will allow for the answer from the honourable minister.
Hon. Seamus O'Regan: Thank you, Madam Chair. We have supported and we will continue to support the forestry sector, including through regional development programs. In fact, in Quebec, partnering with Les Bois Francs DV Inc., we have widened market access to our products and updated technology systems. In North Bay we've partnered with the Canadian Wood Council to promote the sector. In Vancouver we're working with FPInnovations to create the indigenous forest sector technical support program. We are supporting the forestry sector and its different needs region by region.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Now we go to the honourable member for SkeenaBulkley Valley, Mr. Bachrach.
Mr. Taylor Bachrach (SkeenaBulkley Valley, NDP): Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to pick up where my colleague left off, with B.C.'s forest industry. What we've seen in B.C. are multiple rounds of mill shutdowns and start-ups, and in some cases this has made it difficult for forestry workers to qualify for EI. My question to the minister is this: Will the minister work to make the EI program more flexible for forestry workers, similar to what this government has done for oil and gas workers?
Hon. Seamus O'Regan: Madam Chair, in the oil and gas sector we have focused on workers. That has been key in the inactive and orphan well program, which we are working on with the provincial governments of Saskatchewan, British Columbia and Alberta. The focus on workers has assured that success, and we will continue to focus on workers in all the industries, particularly our natural resource industry, as they go through this extraordinarily difficult time.
Mr. Taylor Bachrach: Madam Chair, reforestation is a very important part of the forest industry in the riding I represent, and people were keenly interested to hear this government's plan to plant two billion trees in the next 10 years. That's a lot of trees. I'm wondering if the minister could tell us how many trees are going to be planted under this program by the end of this season.
Hon. Seamus O'Regan: Madam Chair, this government is committed to two billion trees. We are working with forestry associations, the industry and with individual companies to ensure this tree-planting season will be one of the largest the country has ever seen.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The floor goes to the honourable member for Rivire-du-Nord.
Mr. Rhal Fortin (Rivire-du-Nord, BQ): MadamChair, last week, the government introduced BillC-17 and the Minister of Justice sent us briefing notes in which he said that it was important to suspend a number of time limits and to extend others, and that the failure to do so could have important repercussions on Canadians, their families, their situations, their finances and their ability to exercise their rights. We in the Bloc Qubcois agree with that. When are we going to talk about it?
Hon. David Lametti: MadamChair, the contents of BillC-17 are clearly very important. We have addressed the mandatory time limits in federal legislation as well as certain time limits that courts may not be able to handle. It is very important that we address this issue. That is why the law
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Mr.Fortin, you have the floor.
Mr. Rhal Fortin: MadamChair, we agree that it is important. I concur. The minister's briefing notes say that, among other things, when it comes to divorcewhich means children are involved people are waiting on custody rights, child support and visitation rights. The minister pointed out that the national security review would require consultations if no decision is made in the prescribed time frame. It could pose a national security risk. It is really a big deal. When are we going to debate it?
Hon. David Lametti: MadamChair, I completely agree with my honourable colleague. The issue needs to be addressed. That is why it is in the bill. That is another reason to debate the bill. I beseech my colleagues opposite to debate it with us.
Mr. Rhal Fortin: MadamChair, what a coincidence, because I beseech my colleague opposite to debate it with us. That is what we are asking. Last week, the leader of the Bloc Qubcois asked the Liberal government to debate BillC-17 today. He did not get an answer. It does not seem to matter. Richard Wagner, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, who is hardly a dimwit or greenhorn, told us that the justice system needs to be modernized. As recently as this past Saturday in LaPresse, Justice Wagner said that it is essential that the Criminal Code be amended to address the backlog of court proceedings. When will the Liberal government opposite pull up its socks, do its job, govern the federation, sit down with the opposition and discuss the vital matters in BillC-17?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: MadamChair, if I were my colleague, I would be a little embarrassed, because the bill was sent to the Bloc Qubcois several days in advance. They received a technical note several days in advance. We were all available to take questions. When we asked for the support of the Bloc Qubcois and the other parties to debate itwe were not even asking them to vote in favour of the billthey refused.
Mr. Rhal Fortin: MadamChair, we never refused to debate it. Actually, we were the ones who asked to debate it. What exactly does debate it mean? We set some conditions. For example, we asked the Liberals to put the money back into the wage subsidy fund and to commit to dip into it no longer. Are we asking too much of our colleagues opposite?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Can my colleague explain to me what the emergency wage subsidy has to do with a bill about justice? This is an absolutely fundamental piece of legislation. We wanted to debate it, but they refused to do so.
Mr. Rhal Fortin: MadamChair, I would like nothing better than to explain it to him, but I must remind him that he is the leader of the party in power, the party that is supposed to govern the country. So I do not know why he is asking me that. My party proposed that we debate this today but we did not get an answer. Meanwhile, court time limits are running out and people are losing rights. I am thinking of families, child support, child custody, labour law disputes in Federal Court, marine transportation, interprovincial transportation, aviation, banks, and those with grievances waiting for a Federal Court ruling. The whole system, the Supreme Court and the Court of Appeal, everything is on hold because nobody in the government wants to do their job. We want to discuss BillC-17. When can we talk about it?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: MadamChair, we have done our job. We have introduced the bill. We informed them in advance. We told them they could ask us any questions they wanted. We asked for a debate in the House. However, when we asked the Bloc Qubcois if they wanted to debate the bill, they said no, instead of doing what they usually do and saying yes.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go to the honourable member for Essex, Mr. Lewis.
Mr. Chris Lewis (Essex, CPC): Thank you, Madam Chair. When the CERB runs out, many workers in my riding of Essex will not have sufficient hours to collect their EI benefits. In early July, the midnight shift at Chrysler will be eliminated. Because of the shutdown, a mom-to-be who had just returned to work in January, and several hundred of her fellow employees, may not have the 600 hours required for regular or EI parental benefits. Immediate action is needed. What is the government doing now to backstop these workers?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, the Canada emergency response benefit has been providing much-needed help to Canadian workers across the country who have stopped working due to COVID-19. We know that there is still a lot of uncertainty for many Canadian workers, and we know that many will be exhausting their benefits in the weeks to come. We will have more to share soon, as early as this week, on our continuing efforts to support Canadian workers and make sure that help is available during this
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Go ahead, Mr. Lewis.
Mr. Chris Lewis: Thank you, Minister, for the answer. The EI system needs to be fixed. Even before the shutdown, the system was deeply flawed. Will this government commit to a complete review and overhaul of the EI system?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, we have been there for Canadian workers. We will continue to make sure that we make the necessary investments in the EI delivery system and modernize it to continue to meet
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go back to Mr. Lewis.
Mr. Chris Lewis: Thank you, Madam Chair. Small businesses have been hit extremely hard by the COVID-19 shutdown. Many have already been forced into bankruptcy. Much uncertainty lies ahead. As the economy reopens, what is the government doing to help small businesses recover?
Hon. Mary Ng: Madam Chair, today we are seeing small businesses that have been helped, whether it is getting access to the small business loan, which some are also using in the restart as they are safely restarting, or getting help with their payroll, helping them keep their employees
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go back to Mr. Lewis.
Mr. Chris Lewis: Thank you, Madam Chair. Employees are key to a small business's success. How will the government incentivize workers to return to their jobs when recalled?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable minister can give a brief answer.
Hon. Mary Ng: The Canada emergency wage subsidy is an excellent program to help those employees stay employed and for those employers who are looking at rehiring them right now during this restart process.
Mr. Chris Lewis: Madam Chair, many of my constituents are in a committed cross-border relationship and have not been able to see their partners in quite some time. The current restrictions are arbitrary. Denmark has found a fair resolution. Will Canada adopt the Danish model, and if not, why not?
Hon. Bill Blair: Madam Chair, as we said from the outset, we've implemented restrictions at the U.S. border on non-essential travel with a single purpose in mind: to protect the health and safety of Canadians. As the member is aware, just last week we introduced new measures that allow people in family relationships to stay together as long as they commit to the necessary 14-day period of quarantine. We'll continue to work with families. Our intention is to keep people together, but mostly to keep people safe.
Mr. Chris Lewis: Madam Chair, with regard to child care, as our economy continues to open, parents are facing a stark choice: Who will care for their children? What's the plan to provide access to child care so parents can confidently return to work?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, we are of course committed to continuing to make the record investments that we've been making in child care. Since 2015 we've created over 40,000 affordable child care spaces. We're committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces. We will continue to invest in this sector because we understand that without investment
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go back to Mr. Lewis.
Mr. Chris Lewis: Thank you, Madam Chair. It sounds as though this government has a desire to force parents to choose between their job and care for their child. Can the government please respond to that quote?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, nothing could be further from the truth. We are committed to the child care sector. Our investments and our results prove the opposite of what the member is asserting. Mr. Chris Lewis: Madam Chair
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): I'm sorry. We're out of time. The committee now stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon.
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doc_54
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Project Manager: Afternoon guys . It's gonna be {gap} .
Marketing: Rock and roll .
Project Manager: Oh . {vocalsound} {gap} 'Kay .
Marketing: So do we need to re-train Mike on how to put his mic on ?
Project Manager: We may do .
Industrial Designer: Think s
Marketing: Okay , can he get it all by himself this time ?
Project Manager: I dunno , I'm feeling like a big boy .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Pro
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Probably not , 'cause he's 'S been listening to {gap} too much .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: He's getting retarded . Yay .
Marketing: I believe I can fly .
User Interface: Alright well we got some exciting stuff for you guys .
Industrial Designer: Or not .
User Interface: Or not . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Just what I needed was something exciting . Remember , I'm an old man .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'Kay , ready to go ?
User Interface: All ready .
Project Manager: 'Kay so we've got our conceptual design meeting .
Industrial Designer: Apparently I'm old as well .
Project Manager: Hopefully we've all got exciting ideas now .
Marketing: Thirty's really young , eh ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} We do .
Project Manager: Uh k exciting ideas . 'Kay so here's our agenda our agenda . Um
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm gonna open . I'm gonna talk for a bit about what we're gonna do . I'm gonna take some notes . We're gonna all do a presentation , and then hopefully we're gonna make some decisions now . {vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound} Well when I say hopefully , we have to . So
User Interface: Alright .
Project Manager: I'm gonna let you guys talk before we make decisions . And does anyone really want to go first ?
User Interface: I guess I'll go first .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You p two ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: What's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Component , I think . Yeah .
Project Manager: Components design .
User Interface: Yep that's it .
Industrial Designer: Presented by name . {vocalsound}
User Interface: My name is {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your name is name ?
Marketing: Jose he man is .
User Interface: My name is name .
Project Manager: Huh hi name .
Industrial Designer: My name is Inigo Montoya .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You killed my father .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Sorry I did this in a bit of a rush .
Industrial Designer: Prepare to die . {vocalsound}
Marketing: N name .
Project Manager: Right . {vocalsound}
User Interface: So so here's a look inside your really old-looking remote control . Um you've got {vocalsound} a printed {vocalsound} a printed uh circuit board here , and you've got all these buttons which kinda press down little rubber {vocalsound} nubbies into these little holes that activate {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We've all broke a remote control ri um s yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah we've all broken a remote control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I've {disfmarker}
User Interface: So you've also got um {disfmarker} you've got your chip here , your batteries here , and some sorta electronics . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: I just love you tech guys , huh .
Industrial Designer: Yeah there's a thingy and a dingy and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You press this and it does th
User Interface: Well {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah y do jabber {vocalsound}
User Interface: so you've got {disfmarker} here's here's a transistor , and this amplifies your signal ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: um you've got the L_E_D_ here on the end of the uh uh on the end of the printed circuit board . Um you've got a couple diodes here for I don't know who and whatnot {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I dunno who and whatnot .
User Interface: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} exactly .
Industrial Designer: Nah .
User Interface: So um we've got a {disfmarker} i in this in this uh drawing he uh in this example here , this is a eighteen pin um uh chip {vocalsound} I dunno .
Marketing: P Yeah .
User Interface: Uh it's two double A_ batteries .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: This is pretty standard remote . So here are options for our power sources . You can use a basic battery , which we've already discussed , um {vocalsound} th our tech department also said we have the option of doing some kind of hand dynamo where maybe you crank it or something like that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Kay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I wanna change that {vocalsound} .
User Interface: I don't know if that's really {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I I gotta I gotta flashlight , and uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: I don't know we got some qu crazy guys down there in that department so {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: You shake it .
Marketing: yeah but it's interesting 'cause you shake it like this {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Like this {vocalsound} .
User Interface: So that's the next bullet is the um the kinetic provision of energy ,
Marketing: And that's on the camera {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so it's like that flashlight where you have to shake it {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: Uh we've got solar cells , which I don't think is a very good idea because um you could not use your remote at night {vocalsound} which doesn't make a lot of sense .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: And finally we've got our cradle o our power cradle idea .
Project Manager: Okay so we basically have battery versus cradle here ?
User Interface: M battery versus cradle I think is {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I like the kinetic .
Project Manager: So we have battery versus cradle {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: I g I I figured you would . Yes . {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: It could be fun {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: It's actually a novel thing because you could sell it a as a novelty , just to be actually serious for a minute here ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: you could {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well it is it is more uh {disfmarker} I mean it is more eco-friendly than the than the cradle 'cause you're still using power off the grid with the cradle . So um
Project Manager: Mm . Hmm .
User Interface: our case design . We have uh choices in materials and choices in the general shapes that we can do . Our material choices are a plastic latex um ty or plastic , a rubber latex type thing , uh wood , or titanium . If we go with titanium we're gonna be uh limited in the amount of shapes we can do because it's tough to shape the titanium , and uh {disfmarker} Yeah pers
Project Manager: Wood wood would ge would give us a little bit of a marketing niche , wouldn't it .
User Interface: I think wood i {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It it it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Nah .
User Interface: I I can't see anybody wanting to use a wooden remote , it's just anti-technology really , you know .
Marketing: Uh .
Project Manager: Okay . Hmm .
Marketing: Uh uh to me in a marketing sense it's not it's not relative . We can we can o we can uh accentuate whatever {disfmarker} whatever product you put in there we can find a way to accentuate it .
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: And what we may be able to do , and I think this might be the best option is to combine some {disfmarker} a couple of these . Um my recommendation personally would be to do some kind of a plastic inner shell with a like a rubber outer shell , to make it um to mak uh like a thick plastic inner shell and a t um kind of a {disfmarker} to have that rubber outer shell to make it more durable , and also maybe i I think it feels a little better than the plastic .
Project Manager: 'Kay . Do you get a good grip on the rubber ? Yeah okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah um {disfmarker}
Marketing: And if you make it from that super rubber , when you drop it on the floor it can bounce right back up in your hand .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: You don't even need to lean down to get it .
User Interface: The advantages of working with plastic and rubber is {disfmarker} w we we'll have a lot more um options just in terms of shape
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: because you can extrude plastic in basically any shape you want . So um {disfmarker} and then we can cover you know the breakable bits with rubber yeah so um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: But basically these are {vocalsound} curved and double-curved I I believe that the tech department , in their um {vocalsound} in their {vocalsound} message to me , that they were referring to the number of th curves in the bottom . I have no idea exactly what they're talking about ,
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: but that's what they told me , {vocalsound} uncurved , flat , curved , or double-curved .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I would guess this like this pen would be kinda like a double-curved , where it's curved on m m multiple axes , right ? I think curved means just curved in one axis and double-curved is curved in two axes
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: or surfaces . I have no idea .
Project Manager: I think it might mean something like that sorta shape because a double curve rather than a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm yeah that's {disfmarker} yeah that's what I see .
Project Manager: yeah that's what {gap} .
User Interface: Oh okay oh like a wave , okay .
Marketing: Yeah that's what I see also .
User Interface: Alright that makes sense okay . Um okay , with the interface we have the following options , we can u we can use push buttons , we can use a scroll wheel with an integrated push button , and L_C_D_ display ,
Marketing: Ooh .
User Interface: or multiple scrolling wheels . Um so these are all options that the user interface guy can uh {disfmarker} has at his disposal to put together a user interface .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: For electronics , we have these very technical um {vocalsound} descriptions here . A simple chip , which is the least expensive , but I have no numbers to give you ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: a regular chip , which is {vocalsound} like the medium porridge {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} medium expense uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} D do we have actually any concept of what the difference is between a simple chip and an advanced chip ?
User Interface: Yes the difference is , with a simple chip {disfmarker} a simple chip will operate {disfmarker} oh why doesn't this scroll up ? Previous previous , okay . A simple chip is required to operate push buttons .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Um {vocalsound} an advanced chip is required to to operate um the L_C_D_ display , and it didn't say specifically , but I I have a hunch that a regular chip is gonna be the scroll wheel and the multiple scroll wheels .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: So but yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah that makes sense . So presentation from {disfmarker} I guess design would go best . Next .
User Interface: That's the end of my presentation .
Project Manager: Technical functions or interface concept ?
User Interface: I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh interface concept .
Project Manager: Yeah that's it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Very long presentation . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes , but it has your name on it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well that doesn't bo bode well for it for it tats as well . Um so , somehow that thing's too big , but um {disfmarker} okay um our uh manufacturing division wanted the speech recognition . They say they could put it to work but um we don't think so .
User Interface: No . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No . It it it {disfmarker} you'll be you know be affected by the by the other speech and {disfmarker}
User Interface: If the T_V_ is working , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: That's just {disfmarker} I mean it'll {disfmarker} if somebody says up in the middle of a television show , it's gonna change the channel .
Industrial Designer: Yeah and and fighting for the remote would not be fun anymore ,
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and I think that's one of the things we wanna keep .
Project Manager: But what if you actually had to press a button to make it recognize ? So if you pressed it and went , up ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That kinda would r d
User Interface: Well then why don't you just press the up button ?
Project Manager: Man yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah . That would kind of lose it .
Project Manager: But if it's just one thing with a button that you can just go {disfmarker} Up .
User Interface: Even still there's gonna be interf th there's there still will be interference from the T_V_ .
Marketing: That's right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , okay .
User Interface: It might not be it might not be completely confusing , but I think you'll still y it's still {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I don't think it's practical at all . I think it's a bad idea frankly .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah so um taking that away , our uh {disfmarker} the the the rubber but rubber buttons are the more reliable {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You guys know your stuff .
Industrial Designer: it's the the ones that would al would allow us to to market our product as being you know less prone to damage and more resistant to things like spillage of liquids over it or you know mistreat misuses as it happens to remote controls . Um as for the point that we making about losing it . Well , we wanna small r remote control one side because uh we want it to be cool and uh designed , but um apparently um market shows that bigger s bigger um remotes get less lost ,
User Interface: That I would believe .
Industrial Designer: about {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But um yeah I think we we need to compromise between those two and somehow we'll do that . Somehow . Um so {vocalsound} the the {disfmarker} what I would propose is something more or less in the uh direction of what is to yo the right of that slide uh but without {disfmarker} with a l a less complicated um design , so the numbers , the volume control , and channel control , and teletext access . Uh the volume and channel control can just become those the the four button array as in if it was a round dial .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And um if you just think about it as the one to the right but with the numbers and the four buttons plus maybe a centre one with teletext .
Project Manager: So we're suggesting doing a sorta scroll wheel thing for the volume ?
Industrial Designer: Ye no it's not
User Interface: That's not a scroll wheel .
Industrial Designer: i i it's just four buttons that are on a cross ,
Project Manager: Nah . Oh okay okay . I see .
Industrial Designer: so that you ba basically can control all of the important tasks from that {gap} alone .
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: Uh , okay .
User Interface: Instead of play , stop , rewind , and fast forward there , that's up , down , louder , and quieter .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah um yeah so I think we w we go for something mid-sized , so something looks good
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and uh is not too prone to get lost . That be it .
Project Manager: 'Kay . So on to {disfmarker} Y functional requirements or trend watching ?
Marketing: I dunno .
User Interface: Trend watching has a later date there .
Marketing: Trend watching I guess . Trend watching I believe .
Project Manager: {gap} forty six nineteen fifty seven . Yep .
Marketing: See what it looks like . It's been so long .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} .
Marketing: Well {vocalsound} I don't know what to say . When I s when I see the {disfmarker} when I see the product I I I I don't wanna buy it . I see so many of 'em out there . There's nothing about that product that makes me wanna choose that product over other products that are out there .
User Interface: Are you talking about the picture ? That's not our that's not our b design ,
Marketing: Yeah yeah .
User Interface: that's just a {disfmarker} that's just something he a a graphic he used to show you the layout of what the layout of the buttons might be like .
Marketing: Okay . Okay . Okay 'cause 'cause right now I don't have too much to say about how to market this product because we don't have a product to market yet .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: And uh from from talking to Mike is that we have we have uh we can market a more expensive product now . That's what I understand so ,
Project Manager: Upper management said yes .
Marketing: hello .
Project Manager: Uh e excuse that , that's a bit of spam .
Marketing: And and so {disfmarker} yeah I'm a I'm a little bit stuck right now in that what uh w what is it that I'm gonna market ? Uh without special or increased marketable features I don't believe the product has a consumer demand . Uh I like the idea of of the scroll makin {vocalsound} there are so many people making these products at this price right now . What are we gonna do to make this one special and unique ?
User Interface: What's special and unique about a scroll ?
Marketing: Uh {vocalsound} well I don't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's cool .
Marketing: yeah it's {disfmarker} I I just see it as different . I don't say it's specially mm {disfmarker} I don't say it's special . Uh I say that it's different I {disfmarker} what I'm looking for as marketing is m give me something different . I give me a lower price , give me a higher price , give me some new technology , don't give me the same thing that everybody else is putting out there on the shelf it's f at the same price . I need something to market about this thing . We're we're a new firm .
Project Manager: I'd I'd say though that we {disfmarker} if we did make the decision to go with the cradle though , the then we have that as well ,
Marketing: What i {vocalsound} if when when we have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but wi with a similar {disfmarker}
Marketing: yeah when we when we have something like the cradle or or something give that's {disfmarker} as as a marketing standard {disfmarker} I need something to market , to make this product unique .
User Interface: Well right I think the two big th points that we have so far are the {disfmarker} having the cradle and also having uh the um the actual design of the uh case itself having like this like rubber shell maybe with a plastic interior ,
Marketing: Yep .
User Interface: having it look really nice um and also be really durable .
Marketing: Mm 'kay . Just remember when I made up this report I didn't have the information that we're discussing here .
Project Manager: Mm . Course .
User Interface: Right yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: And and so so uh yeah when we have a cradle , when we have some kind of design , so what I'm saying is , from my perspective , I don't have a product to market right now . Um uh my personal preference is that we make some adjustment in the cost , either lower or develop an integrated new technol technology . That's that is the next step , there's technology and then there is technology , which we're moving into the next phase .
Project Manager: Yeah 'cause that's {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And so uh we're gonna have some new technology to enhance the marketability . Yeah uh again I'm not sold on the product because we don't have a product in my opinion yet .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: So I need a product .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: Well let's get a product then .
Marketing: I need a product to market . And I just {disfmarker} whatever product you guys put together , we'll find a way to market it . Tha that I'm not concerned with .
Project Manager: So now {disfmarker}
Marketing: If you if you give me {disfmarker} if you give me a cut-out of what everybody else has then I need to I need to find a lower cost .
Project Manager: So our big {vocalsound} questions here really are cradle or not cradle ? Do we go basic or do we go for features ? Uh d does anyone really wanna do anything with the scroll wheel or should we ditch that off-hand first ?
User Interface: Well my question is what would the scroll wheel do ? Function-wise , what does that do that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh but that was in your presentation {vocalsound} so wh what would you imagine it doing ?
Marketing: Yeah wh wh what's the {vocalsound} wh
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . Well it's it's just another way to do the exact same thing that the buttons do .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm 'kay
Industrial Designer: But would we {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay now what I see with the scroll wheel is everybody has buttons . So from a marketing standpoint I have I have another door to walk through when we have something that's unique .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: If it creates something more complex or more expensive , then I don't know if that makes it uh a marketing necessity . But again , from a marketing perspective I want as much new and different about this thing as possible because we're we're co {vocalsound} it's a very competitive market .
Project Manager: What I understand about scroll wheels is they're they're quite expensive to to make .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So I d
User Interface: Th they are gonna be more expensive , but on the other hand , I mean , it {disfmarker} I mean it is an alternative if if you think that's gonna sell some some uh you know {disfmarker} if if we're gonna make up the extra cost by extra sales I think maybe it's worth it to do it , but I mean I would just use {disfmarker} if I was gonna do this I would just use the scroll wheel for s channels up and channels down . I don't think volume {disfmarker} or do you think volume would be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I dunno . I'll bet first in volume maybe . I dunno .
User Interface: No we can {disfmarker} we can do multiple scroll wheels but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I d I like the idea of basically focusing the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} my personal preference is focusing the p the product on the idea of the uh the case the the {vocalsound} uh dock to put it in {disfmarker} to to charge it . We can target like environmentally friendly ideas , that sorta things .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: It s i m makes it easy to market ,
Marketing: Yeah yeah .
Project Manager: it's easy to differentiate the product , yeah so .
Marketing: I think it's {disfmarker} that's right . I think so .
Project Manager: And if we we keep the rest in a format that is durable because th th the whole product's gonna need to be more durable th thus because you're not going to be ditching it as often .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: It's gonna need to be more expensive because of the cradle .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: So if we can market it in terms of that and yeah well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yep . I think we got some exclusivity in that , you know , we got something that nobody else has right now ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: and and that means we can we can make some adjustments in the retail or wholesale price if we need to and it also can create it's own demand from it's uniqueness .
Project Manager: So our big decision then is like how do we do um like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we have to decide on the details and we have to decide on well n not exactly the details , but d do we have uh {disfmarker} What type of casing ? I personally like what you were saying about the plastic with the rubber .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm thinking {disfmarker} yeah something like kinda almost like these pens , you know , where there's {disfmarker} you have plastic bits and then it's not really rubber but just kinda like a fused {disfmarker} the plastic with rubber on the outside .
Project Manager: Okay . Just a very thin sorta sheet for a a grip , sorta thing or for {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well no ma yeah maybe a bit more then th is on here but ju just as a kind of an inspiration , these pens I think are are kind of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . So then if we {vocalsound} {disfmarker} d d do we want to do anything more basic with the {disfmarker} uh more advanced with the user interface in terms of do we want to go for {vocalsound} um buttons , or do we want {disfmarker} if we're ditching the scroll wheels do we want to go L_C_D_ ? Do we want to give {disfmarker} do we want to have anything else on it ?
Industrial Designer: It's only a T_V_ .
User Interface: Or from from my perspective I think L_C_D_ is a mistake because this is a universal remote and all you're doing {disfmarker} I mean it's {disfmarker} you're not gonna get any information back from the television , so the only information you can display on this remote is what channel you {vocalsound} just sent it at last and there's just not a lot of information , you know , there .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: It receives no information .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: So I I don't see any reason for having an L_C_D_ 'cause it's an increased cost . Unless you can think of something interesting to do with it .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah right now there's {disfmarker} right now there's nothing coming out of the T_V_ to receive , so you know unless technology changes and information starts coming out of the {disfmarker} a cable box or something there's no s I don't see the ,
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: I don't see the necessity of an L_C_D_ either . Don't see it .
Project Manager: Okay so the question is now I guess we need t to decide on {disfmarker} well y you guys basically have to now go and figure out the details of this thing .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , what we need to know in terms of marketing and uh project management are are there any other questions that we need to answer now before you guys can go and build this ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What what overall things have we not decided on ?
User Interface: Well we have to {disfmarker} I think for me it's still not exactly clear exactly what the inter user interface is gonna be . There's the scroll wheel , in or out ? What do you guys like in the user interface ?
Project Manager: I think maybe in terms of marketing , is that gonna make enough of a difference to justify the cost ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Again . Well I think it's it's {disfmarker} the more uniqueness you can bring to the product , the easier it is , I believe , for me to market . Uh again the push-buttons I I see are are everywhere . And so we can go with the same thing , but we're gonna be com competing in a in a broader market than if we go with something unique . You know the other thing I thought about was you know , do we go to something like this ? Make a remote that doesn't look like a remote . It's just another {disfmarker} it's just a an idea , and I don't know {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well I dunno about like the flip-phone idea , because {vocalsound} I think , as far as durability th it's not a big {disfmarker} well maybe when it's closed .
Marketing: I mean what I see {disfmarker} one of the things one of the things you brought up in an earlier presentation is , when you got children , {vocalsound} their their stuff gets inside the circuitry , they get dirty , they get messy with drinks and stuff .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: This {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: And what I keep throwing out there {disfmarker} I just keep throwing out ideas to try to make this thing look or act or in some way identify itself as unique or different .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: But you guys are the ones that have to c ultimately create the product within cost .
Project Manager: Yeah and I guess th th the question th {vocalsound} th that you're being asked right now is whether {disfmarker} is the dock enough of a unique feature to be able to go out and sell that a a as a a very different product , or do we really need the scroll wheel as well ?
Marketing: Oh okay
Project Manager: Because the scroll wheel comes at quite a cost .
Marketing: phew .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I think you gotta g get into cost effectiveness . I think if you can have the base station with a with a locator , I think those are two very strong features ,
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: if that's something that can be integrated without a bunch of extra cost .
User Interface: The {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The locator's gonna require a radio transmitter , which will {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: That's gonna n is that gonna need a better chip as well ?
User Interface: Um {vocalsound} we're probably gonna have to go with a like a medium chip , s I would imagine .
Industrial Designer: No it's just different .
User Interface: But we I we will need a receiver , an antenna .
Marketing: Integrated , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So it's just uh I I think that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: It should be a really simple signal though so {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I know personally that would be a very attractive feature , is to have a uh have a button I can push to find my remote control .
Project Manager: And it's presumably gonna need a little speaker in it or something like that as well to beep .
User Interface: That's true yeah .
Project Manager: But I guess a little tiny speaker is gonna be quite cheap , it's not gonna need q quality , is it ? It's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh yeah yeah . It'll be really cheap .
Marketing: Or maybe you can like have a a smell-o-rama , you know you push a button and it s puts out a stink .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You can {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Maybe not {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Makes your living room more fresh as you watch {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay we're doing well for time here .
Industrial Designer: S
Project Manager: Um we've got about another ten minutes . I think that uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: So the scroll wheel , in or out ?
Project Manager: Mm pr my personal preference is out . I don't think the cost is justified {vocalsound} for a little bit more uniqueness when we already have that , and I don't s think it's obvious and natural how it would be used .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah I think we have {disfmarker} like and it's not very usable and it will bring down the robustness of the whole thing ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: 'cause it's it it breaks down easier .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: For me I think the scroll wheel actually might not be so bad .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I don't know exactly what the increased cost is gonna be , but I think he does have a point , i it might push somebody over the edge when they're looking at our at our remote versus something else , when they see this one has a scroll wheel to go up and down on the channels . I think it might be kinda neat to be able to do it like that .
Project Manager: But then that that surely d depends a little on the T_V_
Marketing: W
Project Manager: because some T_V_s are quite slow at changing channels from like so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Sure .
Project Manager: if you've got a scroll wheel and you s you have to scroll scroll it really really slowly just so that you're actually keeping in pace with the T_V_'s ability to to change channels . Or do you have to go through and you wait for it ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You scroll it a bunch of times and you wait for it to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well I think wh what it would be is like like the m like this , where it's maybe you know a digital wheel , right , where it's where it's quantized into you know certain {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh yeah .
Project Manager: Uh I see I see . That's where you {disfmarker}
User Interface: That was that was my my intuition of what the scroll wheel would be .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Ah I see I see what you're talking about now . Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's just {disfmarker} it's basically {disfmarker} it it's just a f look and feel thing . It has the same exact functionality as two buttons .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I I think there's {disfmarker} you know that uh there are so many people today that are that are surfing {disfmarker} are television surfers , and I see the scroll as a as a great mechanism for surfing .
Project Manager: Yeah if you're just sitting there going {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Instead of going button-to-bu you just {vocalsound} j you'd j j j j j j .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: That's kinda cool actually .
Marketing: I really I really think that's a really cool thing for surfing .
Project Manager: I like that .
User Interface: Now just just so you know though uh you did bring up a point which is very valid , is a lot of T_V_s won't re the T_V_s won't respond exactly the same . Some of them are gonna be kinda slow switching , so you may like queue up like fifteen channel changes , and it'll be like flip , flip , flip .
Marketing: Well there's ano
Project Manager: Well not n necessarily .
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You could basically make it so that it'll {disfmarker} I mean it's just gonna be sending a signal to the T_V_ yeah the T_V_'s ge so if you send about five flip channels , if you did that it's gonna flip once .
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: That's right .
Project Manager: If you do that .
User Interface: Yeah it just might be frustrating where you can't make it go as fast as you want ,
Project Manager: Other than click click click . Yeah .
User Interface: but I think once people get used to it {disfmarker} I I do like the idea of the scroll wheel though .
Project Manager: And if we're marketing it as a high niche product , then we're gonna be selling it to people who are buying good T_V_s as well , yeah , presumably .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Primarily .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah I think so . I I think so .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Now the the only thing I I {vocalsound} {disfmarker} on the interface side of it , is that {vocalsound} I I I see the dilemma . {vocalsound} But if we have the option of of scrolling {vocalsound} at any particular speed , or the option of jumping direct , okay .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So I can go uh {vocalsound} presuming I have , on my television , something that tells me what channel I'm on , I can scroll direct from channel five to channel thirty two . {vocalsound} I know what {disfmarker} because it's on the television . The television tells me what channel it's on when I change it . So {vocalsound} I don't know that really that's that's gonna be a a d problem , 'cause the television can go automatically from channel five to channel thirty two with the push of a button . Okay ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So ca can we can we create that kind of interface within a scroll system ? You understand what I'm saying ?
User Interface: I think I know what you might be getting at , or or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh I see so if {disfmarker} maybe if we had an L_C_D_ up the top that just did a number on it , right ? And then it {disfmarker} that basically {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh no we could read it from the television .
User Interface: Well , what about this {disfmarker} what about if you can programme in your favourite channels into this scroll wheel and you can just like roll through your favourite channels ,
Project Manager: Mm . Well that's quite cool .
User Interface: and it c it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You'd need a display on the th the thing .
User Interface: Why ? It'll tell you when you flip the channel on the T_V_ .
Marketing: Yeah the the television can tell you .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Can .
Project Manager: Oh yeah yeah no I see what you're talking about . Yeah that's kinda cool . How would you program it though ?
User Interface: Well you just {disfmarker} it's one extra button . You say programme start , and then type in {disfmarker}
Marketing: Put {disfmarker}
User Interface: 'cause you still have the typing you know you'll still have the keypad where you can type 'em in manually .
Project Manager: Okay okay .
User Interface: So programme start , zero , one , enter , zero , five , enter , {vocalsound} thirty eight , enter , programme end .
Project Manager: Okay and yeah
Marketing: And then .
Project Manager: and that just basically flips between it and it'll go {disfmarker} it sends out zero , five , and then thirty six , and then zero , one again .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah that's kinda cool . I like that .
Marketing: And again we have another another great marketing tool .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: We have about three {disfmarker} we have three or four things here .
Project Manager: That's not gonna be too expensive because that's gonna be {disfmarker} you're gonna be able to nab that off of computer mouse manufacturers really . You could basically {vocalsound} come up with a partnership to be able to produce that quite cheaply .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: I dunno and an maybe we maybe even have this as in-house technology . This may be something that's available through our own uh through our own services .
Project Manager: Might be , but tha that's not gonna be such a costly feature . The problem we're gonna have is making it robust . Making it last .
User Interface: Oh well we also have to determine in some manner how to switch between modes , between going through your favourites list and just hitting up one , up two .
Marketing: Or we go directional up {vocalsound} we go we go this we go this we go this way for one , we go this way for the other .
Project Manager: So if there's a button {vocalsound} for each type .
User Interface: No because you wanna be able to go up and down through the channels .
Project Manager: Yeah people are gonna have their favourite sorta , whether they do that or whether they {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah-ha okay . Okay , okay ,
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: well then you just have , you have a diff you have a mode switch .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah the mode switch .
User Interface: I think we'll need a {vocalsound} we'll need a mode switch , but then if we have a mode switch we're gonna need some kinda indicator
Project Manager: Just the lights behind the buttons .
User Interface: to which , an L_E_ an L_E_D_ {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You could have back-lit buttons maybe .
User Interface: okay .
Project Manager: Would that work ?
Industrial Designer: {gap} Yeah .
Project Manager: Is that {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: okay we have five minutes . So right details th {vocalsound} that we've talked about here are that we want a scroll wheel .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We want {vocalsound} a mode indicator . We want {vocalsound} back-lit buttons . And if we're making back-lit buttons period , do we want that just for the mode indicator or maybe to indicate what button you're pressing at the time , so that you know if it's actually pressed or not . I've seen some remotes do that .
User Interface: Okay . Just so you know I think {disfmarker} I mean it was my understanding that before we were gonna stay in the mid-market range . It seems we're kind of approaching a higher-end range .
Project Manager: I think we are yeah .
User Interface: I wanna make sure everybody's okay with that .
Marketing: Yeah yeah . Well you had acknowledged that we have more money for this .
Project Manager: Yeah well we don't have {vocalsound} it's not that we have more money ,
Marketing: Didn't you say so ?
Project Manager: we can push up the the price .
Marketing: That's what I mean .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: We can increase the cost .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Marketing: So I don't know I don't know whether having {disfmarker}
User Interface: I just wanna make sure everybody's on board with it . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . So we really need to be sure as to what we can push the cost up to , though we haven't got to a stage where we're ready to pin down the price of components . But I'd say what sorta price are we looking to be able to sell something like that , and what sorta price can we make it for ?
Marketing: Well I think th I think the design and technology has to come back and say , okay to create this product we see it's gonna cost us this much for this volume , because we do have a volume target of of fifty million profit .
Project Manager: Yeah no I I think that's where we really should be more flexible than anything else because as we said in the last meeting , our management is really looking for us to push our brand . We're entering a new market here ,
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: so I think the the profit expectation for this one product is maybe not as important as being able to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay I'm I'm okay with that . I guess what I just want {disfmarker} to me the next step is for these guys to come come in with the design proposal w with the cost estimate attached , and then we have to take this to the next level .
Project Manager: But th what's our ballpark as to what we'd be able to sell something like this for ?
User Interface: Well y yeah . Let's let's try and think now , how much would you pay for
Marketing: We have to find cost .
User Interface: {disfmarker} with all these features {disfmarker} how much would you pay if you went to the store , and you were in the market f to replace your T_V_ remote , how much would you pay for that ?
Project Manager: But you've gotta think who our target market is because I I'm not our target market .
User Interface: I'm just asking you .
Project Manager: I'm a student , but on the other hand I would think , mm with my Project Manager salary , I would think {disfmarker} yeah I could probably afford this {disfmarker}
User Interface: If {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Then you could probably afford this {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: uh would I buy it ? Maybe . If I had a cool new T_V_ and this was r looking really slick and it had the dock and it had the scroll wheel , which I think's a really cool idea , that would sell me on it a little . Then maybe you know . I do I don't think I'd go over a hundred Euro certainly , that would be way too much ,
User Interface: Oh no no .
Project Manager: but the {disfmarker} I would be happy paying over forty for it , I guess , but not much {disfmarker}
User Interface: I would say thirty five to forty .
Marketing: Yeah , I was gonna say thirty five to fifty .
Project Manager: 'Kay . Thirty five to fifty Euros is our sales bracket okay . So the question is what we ca we make it for .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Because one of th one of the things we're marketing about this product is that this is the last one you will ever need to buy for your television .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: It's one of the marketing features in this .
Project Manager: That's why the scroll needs to be really robust .
Industrial Designer: Okay so we'll come up with something between thirty five and fifty that is rug rubber , robust , with scroll wheel , with the new facilities of the scroll wheel like favourite stuff , favourite channels , and and with a cradle , and yeah and the locator .
User Interface: With a cradle , radio transmitters , and back-lit buttons .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And it's gonna look sexy {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {gap} Or not {vocalsound} .
User Interface: Or not . It might look like clay {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Okay so you can market pe depending on that ?
Marketing: Yeah yeah . Bas th that's that's easy . That's that's not a , it's a {gap} . 'Cause we have about six , six , seven features in that alone .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Cool .
Marketing: Under the title of uniquenesses .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: Okay . The next meeting starts in thirty {vocalsound} minutes , although does it ? It starts at three twenty one , the next meeting . So we've got more than a thirty minutes . Um {vocalsound} we've got more like fifty .
Marketing: Well I have {disfmarker} Is my {disfmarker} three twenty one is the next meeting ?
Project Manager: The the ne next meeting is three twenty one yeah .
Marketing: That's that's almost uh fifty minutes .
Project Manager: Yeah that is . Uh they've they've changed the times from the presentations .
Marketing: {vocalsound} You guys can {disfmarker} You guys you guys can uh create a {disfmarker} All kinds of things .
User Interface: Probably . We'll let you know when we're done , if we can go earlier .
Marketing: {gap} Thanks , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay so you guys will be getting your modelling done now and uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay are there any other questions with regards to what this thing's gonna do , look like , how it's gonna work that need to be addressed before we really look at this in a lot of detail ?
User Interface: I don't think so . If we have any questions we'll just email you I guess .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah I think it {disfmarker} pretty much everything's covered .
Project Manager: Okay . This one was quite easy .
Industrial Designer: Coulda been worse .
Project Manager: Always the optimist .
Marketing: Still .
Industrial Designer: Yes I am .
Project Manager: 'Kay thanks guys .
Marketing: Thank you . I don't have any emails . This means I can go home . Oh , we all leave . {gap}
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doc_55
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Marketing: Just put it on the deskt {gap} desktop .
Project Manager: No on the desktop you'll find you should find that there's a project documents link . A well actually just there .
Marketing: Project documents ,
Project Manager: Yeah . That's it .
Marketing: yeah .
Project Manager: If you dump it in there .
Marketing: What's your username ?
Project Manager: Your username .
Marketing: What's your username and password ? Mm-hmm . Sorry .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay . There we go .
Project Manager: Excellent . Right . Hopefully that's us ready to uh to go . So . Functional design meeting . We'll have to flesh out some of the uh stuff . Um we'll start with the minutes of the last meeting . Not a lot thankfully to say . We introduced ourselves , discussed the possibility of a macro facility , interac interacting the T_V_ a bit more , um mentioning of bar-code , joystick for user manipulation , um and ergonomics of the remote control as well . Um it's come to my attention the following . Teletext has become outdated due to the populat popularity of the internet . Remote control should only be used for the T_V_ . Um due for uh time to market and possibly also cost issues . Um also key is the corporate image should stay recognisable , um f uh your colour and slogan of course is down at the bottom there . Um . Now . Just to say quickly uh I would have thought that only being used for a television the macro facility may now not be required .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Um or at l its functionality would have been of limited use . So to the point in my opinion anyway that it might not be worth pursuing . Um if anybody disagrees we can uh definitely say so . Um and hopefully we'll just crack on and we'll get everything going . Um I'd like to if possible hear from our Marketing Expert first , to help us gain an idea of where we're going to go .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: So um I'll just load up your presentation from here if you want .
Marketing: Sure . Um , sh would you like to {vocalsound} I'll just do it from here .
Project Manager: Yep . Sorry . Uh . Is yours the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um , try second one maybe . Try it , yeah maybe .
Project Manager: Oh sorry . Okay , right .
Marketing: Yeah . Okay . Oh , I thought I put in my last name , I guess not , but {gap} .
Project Manager: Uh if you {disfmarker} that's all right . If you {disfmarker} do you want me to just cycle through it for you or ?
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} Oh yeah , that'd be fine , that'd be great .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Marketing: Okay . Functional requirement by me Ebenezer . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay , so um we did some research , we asked one hundred people their opinions on remote controls . We asked some uh open ended questions , just , what are your opinions on the remote control , got a lot of re responses , and we asked some very specific questions , and we got a lot of good feedback . Please bear in mind this is only a hundred people , so even when the groups are divided into fifteen to twenty five , twenty five to thirty five , there's only maybe ten people {vocalsound} fifteen people in each group .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} So we got {disfmarker} some the bad stuff we got , remotes are often lost . I often lose my remote control , the back of the couch , some place , and even if it's not lost permanently , it takes me a few minutes to find it . {vocalsound} Most buttons are not used any more , like you said , teletext is outdated now . I remember trying to load a D_V_D_ player recently , and there were so many buttons , it took me I don't know maybe ten minutes to to go through each button , 'cause you have to press the shift button to access the yellow buttons , you know there's just a lot of stuff that no one really uses . And if they do , not very often . Takes too long to master the remote control . I've seen some remote controls that are big , they have a lot of buttons , you have to hold down more than one key at one time to do something , they're just not great to use . We just got a lot of bad complaints about remote controls , people do not like remote controls . Some of the good stuff we got . Between the age of uh fifteen and twenty five , most people would be willing to pay extra for voice recognition software . Now don't get excited yet , I've got more to say on that . Most people'd be willing to pay for that um most people want remote controls to be pretty , they want it to be fancy , th they they want it to be different , everybody has a white remote control with black buttons , and a red button and a green button , not everybody wants that . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Finally , my opinion .
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: The voice recognition thing is cool . And uh voice recognition , the software , open source software exist already . It's a bit sketchy at some times , uh , you're not gonna get good always accurate results , but for a very fixed number of words , you know you have , how many different words can you have for a remote control , up , down , left , right , channel five , channel seven , you know , how many , you can't have that many words . For a fixed vocabulary it works quite well . I'm pretty sure people would buy it . But after a while people may wanna return it , because {vocalsound} if you have to to say som I mean most people use a remote control for switching to channels , and they say they do that about ninety eight percent of the time . Using the remote control , ninety eight percent of the time for changing channels , and that's for flickering through channels . So if you have to say up , up , up , up , if you have to do that all the time , then people might get a bit fed up with that and they may return it . {vocalsound} However , {vocalsound} oh , because the voice recognition software exists already , there's no need to spend money on research and development , but this does mean the need for microphones in the in the remote control , which is an unusual feature in my opinion . But if we do have the voice recognition thing , there's a lot of stuff that you can uh get rid of . See , you could {disfmarker} there're two options . Either you have voice recognition by itself , which I think is a bit impractical for like night time if you wanna be watching television and you wanna be quiet , or I don't know you have a visitor coming round and the remote's only trained for you , it's a bit impractical to have just voice recognition by itself . So you can have voice recognition and a regular remote . But imagine you got rid of the regular remote part , then you can design the remote to look any way you want it to look , because there are no restrictions on physical size , or shape , it it could be as fancy as you want it to be , you know , it could be like a lollipop or something like that , something weird like that . As long as the voice recognition stuff works , that's that's fine .
Project Manager: Okay , yep .
Marketing: So we have the three birds , we have the design , that {vocalsound} we have the the fancy bit , right , the voice recognition's fancy , it's cool , it's different , it's radical , so , and then we have an extra bit I don't remember {vocalsound} so I'm pretty sure people will buy the remote , but is it practical to have a voice recognition system in a remote control , I think is a big question . Um , will people will people be willing to wait for the the period that it'll take to train the remote , 'cause I think it will the remote will uh get better over time with the same user user , but for the first week or for the first two weeks are you willing to wait , are you willing to have a bad remote control . {vocalsound} And uh what if you have visitors come round , they stay the night , they wanna use the T_V_ , they can't use the remote because they speak differently to you . Um , how do you account for regional accents and stuff like that . Uh , will people return the remote control , {vocalsound} I think a lot of young people will buy the remote control , if they have the money , you know , so ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . If you could uh
Marketing: do our audience have the money , but would they return it after a while because it's not as fast as pressing a button , it's not a practical . So . These are things I think we should consider .
Project Manager: sor
Marketing: I think it's cool ,
Project Manager: if you could speed it up a bit , yeah . If you could uh speed it up a bit please , yeah .
Marketing: I'm sorry ? Sure .
Project Manager: Sorry .
Marketing: I'm about to end , yeah .
Project Manager: Cool .
Marketing: I think it's cool but there are definitely some considerations .
Project Manager: Okay . Excellent .
Marketing: So , yeah .
Project Manager: Right . Um . Hear from the {vocalsound} User Interface Designer now I think might be an idea .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Um , you've got your presentation now ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} How did {disfmarker} where did {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , it's in the it's in the folder
Project Manager: is it on the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: where did you get all your in information {gap} ?
User Interface: yeah .
Project Manager: is it ? Okay .
Marketing: There was uh a website , uh ,
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Technical functions ?
Marketing: right here .
Industrial Designer: Ah , okay .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: No . Yeah . Okay .
User Interface: Okay , this is a {vocalsound} brief run through of the um of the technical functions of the remote . As um is uh the the the presentation is uh already slightly obsolete because I {vocalsound} had in mind something that would uh be i be aimed at controlling multiple devices but uh there's still stuff of relevance , so
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: press on . I've looked at {vocalsound} looked at a num {vocalsound} uh couple of other uh remote control models just for an idea of basic design principles . Um and wasn't really satisfied by what I saw I have to say so this is more sort of springboard for uh how these could be improved on . {vocalsound} Um um basically the job of the device is to send commands to an appliance , in this case the television set . Um to save you getting off your backside . Um and there's two main trends in th in the sort of design practice . On the one hand {disfmarker} and this uh this particularly relates to its sort of earliest models where with you know i so so many buttons on it so about the size of the television set . Um giving you every possible function that the that the device has , the remote control controls . And most of these functions are not going to be used , it creates a rather user unfriendly interface . And on the other hand there's a user focused approach that pares things down to just what {vocalsound} what is most likely to get used . Um {vocalsound} With uh {disfmarker} a and a and of course there is a certain amount of sort of loss of function here obviously , but mostly that's relatively peripheral functions . And so you go for something that's fairly intuitive to use , and um well f the for the most part for T_V_ remote it's uh tha that would be channel control and volume . Um and if you {vocalsound} if you if you are wanting to incorporate uh control of a D_V_ {vocalsound} D_V_D_ or uh {vocalsound} V_C_R_ presumably into that then there's a play , pause , stop , rewind , fast-forward , record , so forth . Um . My own view is that we should definitely be going for a user focused design . Um but uh the pro {vocalsound} I think the problem with a lot of the sort of user focused designs that are about is that they sort of make assumptions in advance about what uh what a given user's going to uh want mo want to do from {vocalsound} want it to do most . So , something that's uh {vocalsound} something that is more programmable , that uh perh perhaps has the full range of functions available to it but you can then specify yourself what you're most likely to want . Um so that those are then immediately {vocalsound} accessible through fairly minimal number of controls , um I liked Ebenezer's idea of including a joystick in that and uh possibly a sort of fairly minimal number of sort of function buttons , and have a disp {vocalsound} you then have some sort of basic display on it so that if you're um sort of cha changing from different modes for the device it'll tell you just exactly what uh you know each direction of the uh of the um joystick's {vocalsound} going to do or wha or what each function button's going to do . Um , this is actually {gap} a again slightly taking inspiration off of uh games controllers , you know the Playstation control where you have four basic function buttons
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: that are just marked with um distinctive uh geometrical shapes but the {vocalsound} and then dependent on what you're doing with it what game and so on um those uh those functions are then sort of further specified . And so it's taking taking the lead from that . Um .
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's it .
Project Manager: Right . Um , if we could hear from our Industrial engineer , or Designer .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Uh , I was still working on stuff , I hadn't got it finished . Um , {vocalsound} alright . Click to save in {disfmarker} where do I have to save it ?
Project Manager: If you look on the desktop you'll find that there's a link to the project folder , or project documents . If you save it in there we can open it up from here .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um , what I've done with it , I'm sorry . Shit . Um {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Are you finding it okay or ?
Industrial Designer: I'm just {gap} closing it now . {gap} where I've saved it .
Marketing: Well like if you go to one , uh whichever one you were working {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} that's it there ,
Marketing: yeah ,
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Marketing: and you just click file save as .
Industrial Designer: Oh right . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh , right I'm responsible for working design , uh , this is basically the inside going on of the the uh remote control . So we have the energy source , we have the user interface , this this is what I've seen . Uh the sender will push the button , the chip will respond , uh and then the dig digital signal is sent to the T_V_ . So uh uh , if you go to next slide , you'll see you'll see uh what do we need on the user interface . Do we need uh many buttons , or do we need l many light bulbs that could be easier to uh to realise which appliances are on or not . Um , {vocalsound} , or would that take too much power , would we need more um components in there to supply the power ? Um , the joystick is another thing , if we were gonna add that , um , there'd be more components to deal with that .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um {vocalsound} , so uh we need to {disfmarker} I dunno exactly what {disfmarker} That's the design of the the the layout of the uh electronic design , um obviously there'll be more details once we've decided what we're putting on the user interface .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So , that'll be decided , I guess . {vocalsound} Uh , and the next slide . Oh , yeah {disfmarker} Um , if you go to the next slide then .
Project Manager: Oh . Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I just used the {vocalsound} it was a mess , uh I was just putting adding it together at the end there . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ah , don't worry about it at all mate . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh so you have the energy source obviously connected to the chip , and the user interface obviously contains everything . You have the switch turn it on , infrared bulb , uh will contact the T_V_ and will have whatever device or D_V_D_ player , the bulb will turn on to say it's on . Uh , so do we need on the control uh different buttons to decide , or different light bulbs , would it be easier ? Um , I dunno what we should decide on that .
Project Manager: Okay . Well . Oh sorry , I'm I'm interrupting you . Are you {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No , it's finished , yeah .
Project Manager: yeah ? Okay . Right . Um , {vocalsound} right we can probably skip that for now . So , we've had some stuff put forward , um along with the new user requirements , um we've had a lot of kind of input I'd say so far . Um I hear what the Marketing Expert's saying about {vocalsound} um voice activated control . However I've got a couple of worries about that . {vocalsound} The power required , um and the ability to the cost , it seems like for uh an embedded system , this could cause us issues .
Industrial Designer: Cost . Mm .
Project Manager: Um for example you see that there's fairly robust services on uh computers via uh via voice , I_B_M_ do um drag and dictate , but these require a lot of memory
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and usually um state quite advanced processor requirements . Um voice activation could be an interesting idea but I think that our Ind Industrial Designer would probably upon some research say that it's maybe not feasible .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Um that's just my view right now ,
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: however the idea of a joystick and then maybe an L_C_D_ which has been kind of put forward so far , it's almost like having a small T_ not T_V_ to say , but if you can control almost all of the functionality from the display , I don't know how much power an L_C_D_ would take , but it might be quite low ?
Marketing: Mm . I uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: L_C_D_ on the remote just telling you what's on , or {vocalsound} uh , interactive L_C_D_ or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well literally um if you can imagine the display maybe slightly larger than um those on a {vocalsound} a mobile phone ,
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: something where you can read an an um fair amount of information , traverse maybe quite a few menus , if we maybe used mobile phones as a good example , they usually incorporate they have the keypad , and then evr all the other functionality is usually associated inside by traversing around .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: That could be one possibility . Um and then we could have like say the common buttons as you say , volume control , changing channels {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm . {gap} I I was thinking that the remote {vocalsound} the um {vocalsound} sort of default functions for the joystick would be up and down for uh volume , left and right for channels .
Project Manager: We {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Do you think that people will get mixed up , like , they'll be looking at this screen and that screen and then , you know , trying to get everything working , would it be a bit confusing ?
User Interface: Um I think probably for the first couple of hours of using it
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: um but you know muscle memory's a wonderful thing , um . And I think {vocalsound} and I think that size of uh display was about what I had in mind .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Um though I mean I w I would say that uh we could probably probably be required to um mo most of the mobile phone displays you see these days are colour but we should probably try to stick to black and white .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I would agree with you .
User Interface: Si si simply to keep m keep the unit cost down . Um I mean colour could be a sort of subsequent development but uh you know cost a bit of extra money f w w w w w once everyone's got the first , you know , oh colour's out , we'll have to replace it won't we .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: It does nothing extra .
Project Manager: That would be my feeling as well , I think we could possibly create quite a useful user interface . Um now I mean I don't {disfmarker}
Marketing: Sure but the idea of a remote with a menu or {disfmarker} and a joystick I think like I h if I was in the habit of buying remote controls then I would want one ,
Project Manager: sorry , go for it .
Marketing: but I think we don't have a specific audience , you know , like what is our target audience , what niche are {disfmarker} niche are we trying to market and corner . You know , you know what I'm saying , like , for whom is this intended ? Everybody ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think it could probably be aimed at most people who've used a mobile . And that might be just another way of saying try to target most people .
Marketing: Most people , yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Um , if we are if we were to follow that avenue , we might be s you know um we're kind of almost relying on their experience with a mobile phone I suppose . But that does cover a very large section of the people out there .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Sure . I think that's fair {vocalsound} yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Um , I mean I imagine as well that the actual L_C_D_ and maybe to a certain extent the joystick as well would be for the additional functionality . Which maybe doesn't get used as often , maybe it makes it easy for them to figure out how to um change the channels as in the frequencies and such for reprogramming it .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um and you can still have the main buttons that allow the people to turn the machine on and off , d up and down , it depends , I mean maybe we have the fol um the joystick as a separate one for the other functions then , that there's just a a small number of as you were saying uh buttons that have already been defined .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So like we go for the nice standard um up and down for and volume control . So that literally anybody can come along , pick up the remote and still know what do do . And they can completely ignore most of the functionality which would be for say the o actual owner of the the T_V_
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and who would normally use the unit .
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound} I th the thing I like about the uh the uh joystick
Project Manager: I dunno .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: is that uh you you you then basically you can then basically put it I mean for for T_ T_ for T_V_ remote alone , you could put um I mean there are {disfmarker} like I say the the the main things people do with a T_V_ remote control is the volume and the channel . You can pack all that onto was onto a single control . Um .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: But uh but the {vocalsound} but then o uh obviously if uh you know if you i if you wanted to access further functions i {vocalsound} you you then get to sort of menu navigation . I mean with things like ch with things like tuning and channels um you know adjusting brightn uh brightness and {vocalsound} fiddly things that no one really bothers with , most T_V_s these days actually have menus anyway so this would be a fairly rational way of integra {gap}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: integrating the uh the remote with the device it's controlling . Um {gap} concern about our market . Um , if we are I mean most of the uh of the replacement remote market is sort of {gap} remote control rationalisation . Um , you've got twenty different devices in your living room ,
Marketing: Yeah . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: you want one wo {vocalsound} y you want one that'll do the job of all of them . Um , if all you're replacing is one of the you know however many remotes you have in your living room , um you know you still need separate remotes for everything else .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I just think that uh possibly {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well this is a requirement that we have to stick to I'm afraid ,
User Interface: mm .
Project Manager: this isn't one that I've just arbitrarily decided on .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: So um this is this is one of the solid ones that has to be obeyed , for now .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: So I can understand your point , and I would agree with you , but this is our design spec for now . 'Fraid to say . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Does that um would that include um access to say {vocalsound} interactive functions on digital or cable ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: I would say so , yes , because then we have to be able to control the remote boxes , and that is a separate unit . Um I think that it {disfmarker} I would say that the design spec we've been {gap} with is for the television only for now .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And until we hear otherwise we should go with just that .
Marketing: Hmm . Okay , specifically television .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay . Maybe we'll hear differently , but for now {disfmarker}
Marketing: So the joystick is just for differentness .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: It would be ease of manipulation of certain functions , yes . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Just a thought . {vocalsound} Um maybe then our market should be T_V_ manufacturers , rather than the public . Try and sell it t sell it to them to supply with um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: There is that possibility , yes . B However I don't know exactly where we'll be going with that , but it might not even be the avenue of the Marketing Expert ,
Marketing: Mm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that might be sales , who are not in this meeting .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . It's just , the way I figure it , twelve point five Euros per unit , we have to sell at least like three million or something like that ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: not to account for all the the money we waste on remotes that no one buys , you know , like if we made a perf if we made a ks for every remote we made someone bought it , then we have to sell a lot of remote controls .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: We just {disfmarker} Is this gonna be enough to to sell ?
Project Manager: Well , something else that you brought up was uh the ability to lose a remote , which as you said you've done , in fact we've probably all done .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um , I don't know if it's a gimmick or not , but have any of you ever seen those odd little key rings where if you whistle , it will beep and you {disfmarker} tell you where it is .
User Interface: Mm , yeah , I've seen them .
Marketing: I had one of those , and my brother , and my dad , could have beat me up
Project Manager: Um . Well
Marketing: because it it went off all the time accidentally .
Project Manager: the other option of course is that um the
Marketing: The clapping one . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: well {disfmarker} I was going to say clapping , um {disfmarker} Um digital telephones , uh for example , one unit has {disfmarker} of course you have to have that base unit , somewhere where there's a button , but maybe it's a button that you attach to the T_V_ .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: To a television . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Something which you when you press that , it would beep to give its location away , on the remote unit .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , I think that's a good idea .
Project Manager: And that could be something could um separate us a bit .
Marketing: Yeah , that's a good idea .
Project Manager: And that way , because we're attaching what would be a small button to the T_V_ , again say what , it would be a small transmitter , um watch battery type scenario I would say , or something that if it was problems enough you could actually even just um I don't {disfmarker} power {gap} that might be something that we could look into .
Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yep . Yeah , it's uh putting a lot on your shoulders there , so I mean that could be something that separates us a bit from the market as well .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think so , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So . To go on from here . Um we have to decide exactly what we're going to do with the remote . Before we leave this meeting , it would be best to say this is what we're going {disfmarker} this is the design we're gonna try and get , this is how we're gonna make ourselves look unique .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Do we go for maybe a remote contro uh sorry , we're gonna go for a remote control obviously , do we go for a small joystick that would operate say changing channels , up and down , and then , what , another button that would say that it's now being used to manoeuvre round the L_C_D_ .
User Interface: Mm yeah . Yeah , I think that's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We're just saying volume . Should volume be important in the joystick , do you think ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: We could use say the left and right for changing channels and the up and down for volume ,
User Interface: For volume .
Project Manager: and {disfmarker}
Marketing: But we have a frequency of how what people use a remote control for most .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Um , power is used like once per hour ,
Industrial Designer: I
Marketing: channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight per hour ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: that's by far the biggest one , and then teletext , is still here , that's like fourteen ,
Project Manager: Vol Volume selection okay , yep ,
Marketing: and volume selection .
Project Manager: the teletext we're gambling with , and we're gonna say it's dead , the way of the dodo {disfmarker}
Marketing: No , yeah , okay okay . Yeah , um {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So we {disfmarker} well , sorry , we could maybe even go as far as saying power button , small joystick , L_C_D_ , and then what maybe is it one more button to say that you're using the menu system , and with the possibility of pushing down on the joystick to say okay ? So we're having very very few buttons involved ,
User Interface: Actually how {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but navigation around a menu for most things .
User Interface: Actually I would say maybe two two function buttons , the {disfmarker} y we're now using the menus button and um and an og and an okay button . I mean certainly something I've found with the joystick on mo the joysticks on mobile phones is that a lot of the time th the device mistakes you trying to move it in one direction or the other for pushing down for okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Or vice versa .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: And that's really irritating .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} The o the o the other dis design constraint I think we should bear in mind is that people are you know very much used to using a remote control one handedly , um , so we need to make sure that e even with the joystick , you know something that can just sit comfortably in the palm of the hand and have the joystick just controlled by the thumb .
Project Manager: Okay . So um we're actually that sounds like a rough idea . Do we incorporate the idea of trying to f locate the remote control again via a beeping noise ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , think so .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Do you mind looking {gap} ?
Marketing: Um , I think because it's so small it might be an uh I mean if we only have like two three buttons it might be essential to have to have that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The ability to locate it again .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So that would require a um transmitter maybe attached to the T_V_ , just so that it says find me , and {vocalsound} what , a basically a small microphone um on the actual unit , can maybe hide it in the base .
Industrial Designer: Light bulb as well ,
User Interface: Oh . So {vocalsound} so
Industrial Designer: no ?
Project Manager: Sorry ?
User Interface: a small speaker you mean .
Project Manager: Some speaker ,
Marketing: Speaker {vocalsound}
Project Manager: sorry , yeah .
Marketing: yeah .
Industrial Designer: And a light bulb ? No . To flash . No .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Nah , you'd see it anyway , if you hear it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} E us we might be better with the sound possibly {disfmarker} we could maybe incorporate
Marketing: W those little key-rings have both ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: th e the true fact , considering the cost of an L_E_D_ , we could just incorporate it anyway .
Marketing: so {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: The L_E_D_s can be surprisingly bright now .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Blue ones particularly .
Project Manager: Um . {vocalsound} So
User Interface: Plus that's a nice wee design touch .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: by the sounds of it , with what we're suggesting so far , your design um the user interface is still quite open , you could go for quite an interesting design .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Because we're only going to have a very few key and you've got you know a small L_C_D_ , joystick , e I think it leaves you open to a a potential wide range of shapes , something that can make it stand out slightly .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um if you could look into what we've suggested so far , the feasibility of um small transmitter , um and such , maybe if an L_C_D_ screen requires too much power , or such . Ebenezer , um , Marketing Expert {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well I can give you the frequency , what people what options people use most often , I guess that's gonna be important in the ts defining the the software side of the interface , right .
Project Manager: If ,
Marketing: You want the stuff {gap} .
Project Manager: yeah if you could maybe as well see what people think about the idea of this minimalist approach that we've taken , where of a joystick to control the very basic functions , and then the idea of manipulating it like you would a mobile .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: I don't know how easy that will be within the time frame ,
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: but could be something we could maybe look into .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Sure . Sure .
Project Manager: Okay . Um any last comments that anybody would like to put forward ? Anything that they think has been missed out . Bit of a wide open question there of course .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Feel free to email me if you think that uh we've screwed something up and wanna get it rectified as soon as possible .
Marketing: Sure . 'Kay . Yeah .
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: So I should just look at um the speaker , {gap} the speaker and an L_E_D_ .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Speaker and L_E_D_ for locating , um ,
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker}
Marketing: Transmitter {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , and a transmitter .
Project Manager: transmitter {disfmarker}
User Interface: Actually one one wee thought about that . Um , if we do end up trying to market this to television manufacturers then the um then the transmitter could actually be built into the television .
Project Manager: {gap} getting the external power source , yep , that's quite true . Um , and something that we can can easily be adopted at the last minute as well I'd say .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: The electronics could be s either placed externally or internally , makes no difference to the final product of the actual remote control ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: so that's good .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} You know I think
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: I mean if it w if we get a major television manufacturer to say y oh yeah we'll have that , save us the bother , then that's you know vast amounts of sales . Quite quickly .
Industrial Designer: P
Project Manager: Oh , one thing that we've almost not talked about at all , my apologies for that , um , user interface , we also need to maybe get the slogan in here , um it's ,
Industrial Designer: Fashion .
Project Manager: I'm pointing at my laptop , what in God {disfmarker} Real reaction , and such . So um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The slogan is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh , sorry .
Industrial Designer: yeah , the slogan's we put the fashion in electronics , isn't it ?
Project Manager: My apologies . No it could well be , I've probably missed that . Um , I think that's l almost the last minute thing
Industrial Designer: 'S also look cool .
Project Manager: we can just incorporate into the actual plastic on top .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: So I'm not too concerned a that we haven't gone into depth about that . But it might be something you could consider when you're thinking about shapes ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: In fact we might like to put a slogan on , and um possibly the two R_s to signify the company . Rather than real reaction .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Mm . Yeah . I thought the uh the d the double arc could perhaps uh be the uh the enter button .
Project Manager: Sounds good .
User Interface: {gap} .
Project Manager: And I'd say that that's us for now . Okay .
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doc_56
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Professor D: OK .
PhD A: Mike . Mike - one ?
PhD B: Ah .
Professor D: We 're on ? Yes , please . I mean , we 're testing noise robustness but let 's not get silly . OK , so , uh , you 've got some , uh , Xerox things to pass out ?
PhD A: Yeah ,
Professor D: That are {disfmarker}
PhD A: um .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah . Yeah , I 'm sorry for the table , but as it grows in size , uh , it .
Professor D: Uh , so for th the last column we use our imagination . OK .
PhD B: Ah , yeah .
Professor D: Ah .
PhD A: Uh , yeah .
PhD B: Uh , do you want @ @ .
Professor D: This one 's nice , though . This has nice big font .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad C: Let 's see . Yeah . Chop !
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD A: So
Professor D: When you get older you have these different perspectives . I mean , lowering the word hour rate is fine , but having big font !
PhD A: Next time we will put colors or something .
Professor D: That 's what 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Uh .
Professor D: Yeah . It 's mostly big font . OK .
PhD A: OK , s so there is kind of summary of what has been done {disfmarker}
Professor D: Uh {disfmarker} Go ahead .
PhD A: It 's this . Summary of experiments since , well , since last week
Professor D: Oh . OK .
PhD A: and also since the {disfmarker} we 've started to run {disfmarker} work on this . Um . {pause} So since last week we 've started to fill the column with um {vocalsound} uh features w with nets trained on PLP with on - line normalization but with delta also , because the column was not completely {disfmarker}
Professor D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD A: well , it 's still not completely filled ,
Professor D:
PhD A: but {pause} we have more results to compare with network using without PLP and {pause} finally , hhh , {comment} um {pause} ehhh {comment} PL - uh delta seems very important . Uh {pause} I don't know . If you take um , let 's say , anyway Aurora - two - B , so , the next {disfmarker} t the second , uh , part of the table ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: uh {pause} when we use the large training set using French , Spanish , and English , you have one hundred and six without delta and eighty - nine with the delta .
Professor D: a And again all of these numbers are with a hundred percent being , uh , the baseline performance ,
PhD A: Yeah , on the baseline , yeah . So {disfmarker}
Professor D: but with a mel cepstra system going straight into the HTK ?
PhD A: Yeah . Yeah . So now we see that the gap between the different training set is much {pause} uh uh much smaller
Professor D: Yes .
PhD A: um {disfmarker}
Grad C: It 's out of the way .
PhD A: But , actually , um , for English training on TIMIT is still better than the other languages . And Mmm , {pause} Yeah . And f also for Italian , actually . If you take the second set of experiment for Italian , so , the mismatched condition ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: um {pause} when we use the training on TIMIT so , it 's multi - English , we have a ninety - one number ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: and training with other languages is a little bit worse .
Professor D: Um {disfmarker} Oh , I see . Down near the bottom of this sheet .
PhD A: So ,
Professor D: Uh , {comment} {pause} yes .
PhD A: yeah .
Professor D: OK .
PhD A: And , yeah , and here the gap is still more important between using delta and not using delta . If y if I take the training s the large training set , it 's {disfmarker} we have one hundred and seventy - two ,
Professor D: Yes .
PhD A: and one hundred and four when we use delta .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD A: Uh . {pause} Even if the contexts used is quite the same ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: because without delta we use seventeenths {disfmarker} seventeen frames . Uh . Yeah , um , so the second point is that we have no single cross - language experiments , uh , that we did not have last week . Uh , so this is training the net on French only , or on English only , and testing on Italian .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: And training the net on French only and Spanish only and testing on , uh TI - digits .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: And , fff {comment} um , yeah . What we see is that these nets are not as good , except for the multi - English , which is always one of the best . Yeah , then we started to work on a large dat database containing , uh , sentences from the French , from the Spanish , from the TIMIT , from SPINE , uh from {comment} uh English digits , and from Italian digits . So this is the {disfmarker} another line {disfmarker} another set of lines in the table . Uh , @ @ with SPINE
Professor D: Ah , yes . Mm - hmm .
PhD A: and {pause} uh , actually we did this before knowing the result of all the data , uh , so we have to to redo the uh {disfmarker} the experiment training the net with , uh PLP , but with delta . But
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: um this {disfmarker} this net performed quite well . Well , it 's {disfmarker} it 's better than the net using French , Spanish , and English only . Uh . So , uh , yeah . We have also started feature combination experiments . Uh many experiments using features and net outputs together . And this is {disfmarker} The results are on the other document . Uh , we can discuss this after , perhaps {disfmarker} well , just , @ @ . Yeah , so basically there are four {disfmarker} four kind of systems . The first one , yeah , is combining , um , two feature streams , uh using {disfmarker} and each feature stream has its own MPL . So it 's the {disfmarker} kind of similar to the tandem that was proposed for the first . The multi - stream tandem for the first proposal . The second is using features and KLT transformed MLP outputs . And the third one is to u use a single KLT trans transform features as well as MLP outputs . Um , yeah . Mmm . You know you can {disfmarker} you can comment these results ,
PhD B: Yes , I can s I would like to say that , for example , um , mmm , if we doesn't use the delta - delta , uh we have an improve when we use s some combination . But when
PhD A: Yeah , we ju just to be clear , the numbers here are uh recognition accuracy .
PhD B: w Yeah , this {disfmarker} Yeah , this number recognition acc
PhD A: So it 's not the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Again we switch to another {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yes , and the baseline {disfmarker} the baseline have {disfmarker} i is eighty - two .
Professor D: Baseline is eighty - two .
PhD B: Yeah
PhD A: So it 's experiment only on the Italian mismatched for the moment for this .
Professor D: Uh , this is Italian mismatched .
PhD A: Um .
PhD B: Yeah , by the moment .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: OK .
PhD B: And first in the experiment - one I {disfmarker} I do {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I use different MLP ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and is obviously that the multi - English MLP is the better . Um . for the ne {disfmarker} rest of experiment I use multi - English , only multi - English . And I try to combine different type of feature , but the result is that the MSG - three feature doesn't work for the Italian database because never help to increase the accuracy .
PhD A: Yeah , eh , actually , if w we look at the table , the huge table , um , we see that for TI - digits MSG perform as well as the PLP ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: but this is not the case for Italian what {disfmarker} where the error rate is c is almost uh twice the error rate of PLP .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: So , um {vocalsound} uh , well , I don't think this is a bug but this {disfmarker} this is something in {disfmarker} probably in the MSG um process that uh I don't know what exactly . Perhaps the fact that the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} there 's no low - pass filter , well , or no pre - emp pre - emphasis filter and that there is some DC offset in the Italian , or , well , something simple like that . But {disfmarker} that we need to sort out if want to uh get improvement by combining PLP and MSG
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: because for the moment MSG do doesn't bring much information .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: And as Carmen said , if we combine the two , we have the result , basically , of PLP .
Professor D: I Um , the uh , baseline system {disfmarker} when you said the baseline system was uh , uh eighty - two percent , that was trained on what and tested on what ? That was , uh Italian mismatched d uh , uh , digits , uh , is the testing ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: and the training is Italian digits ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: So the " mismatch " just refers to the noise and {disfmarker} and , uh microphone and so forth ,
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: right ? So , um did we have {disfmarker} So would that then correspond to the first line here of where the training is {disfmarker} is the uh Italian digits ?
PhD B: The train the training of the HTK ?
Professor D: The {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yes . Ah yes !
Professor D: Yes .
PhD B: This h Yes . Th - Yes .
Professor D: Yes . Training of the net ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: yeah . So , um {disfmarker} So what that says is that in a matched condition , {vocalsound} we end up with a fair amount worse putting in the uh PLP . Now w would {disfmarker} do we have a number , I suppose for the matched {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't mean matched , but uh use of Italian {disfmarker} training in Italian digits for PLP only ?
PhD B: Uh {pause} yes ?
PhD A: Uh {pause} yeah , so this is {disfmarker} basically this is in the table . Uh {pause} so the number is fifty - two ,
PhD B: Another table .
PhD A: uh {disfmarker}
Professor D: Fifty - two percent .
PhD A: Fift - So {disfmarker} No , it 's {disfmarker} it 's the {disfmarker}
PhD B: No .
Professor D: No , fifty - two percent of eighty - two ?
PhD A: Of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of uh {pause} eighteen {disfmarker}
PhD B: Eighty .
PhD A: of eighteen .
PhD B: Eighty .
PhD A: So it 's {disfmarker} it 's error rate , basically .
PhD B: It 's plus six .
PhD A: It 's er error rate ratio . So {disfmarker}
Professor D: Oh this is accuracy !
PhD A: Uh , so we have nine {disfmarker} nine {disfmarker} let 's say ninety percent .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: Oy ! {comment} OK . Ninety .
PhD A: Yeah . Um {comment} which is uh {comment} what we have also if use PLP and MSG together ,
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD A: eighty - nine point seven .
Professor D: OK , so even just PLP , uh , it is not , in the matched condition {disfmarker} Um I wonder if it 's a difference between PLP and mel cepstra , or whether it 's that the net half , for some reason , is not helping .
PhD A: Uh . P - PLP and Mel cepstra give the same {disfmarker} same results .
Professor D: Same result pretty much ?
PhD A: Well , we have these results . I don't know . It 's not {disfmarker} Do you have this result with PLP alone , {comment} j fee feeding HTK ?
Professor D: So , s
PhD A: That {disfmarker} That 's what you mean ?
PhD B: Yeah ,
PhD A: Just PLP at the input of HTK .
PhD B: yeah yeah yeah yeah , at the first {disfmarker} and the {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah . So , PLP {disfmarker}
Professor D: Eighty - eight point six .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: Um , so adding MSG
PhD A: Um {disfmarker}
Professor D: um {disfmarker} Well , but that 's {disfmarker} yeah , that 's without the neural net ,
PhD A: Yeah , that 's without the neural net
Professor D: right ?
PhD A: and that 's the result basically that OGI has also with the MFCC with on - line normalization .
Professor D: But she had said eighty - two .
PhD A: This is the {disfmarker} w well , but this is without on - line normalization .
Professor D: Right ? Oh , this {disfmarker} the eighty - two .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD B:
PhD A: Eighty - two is the {disfmarker} it 's the Aurora baseline , so MFCC . Then we can use {disfmarker} well , OGI , they use MFCC {disfmarker} th the baseline MFCC plus on - line normalization
Professor D: Oh , I 'm sorry , I k I keep getting confused because this is accuracy .
PhD A: Yeah , sorry . Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: OK . Alright .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: Alright . So this is {disfmarker} I was thinking all this was worse . OK so this is all better
PhD B: Yes , better .
Professor D: because eighty - nine is bigger than eighty - two .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: OK . I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm all better now . OK , go ahead .
PhD A: So what happ what happens is that when we apply on - line normalization we jump to almost ninety percent .
Professor D: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Uh , when we apply a neural network , is the same . We j jump to ninety percent .
PhD B: Nnn , we don't know exactly .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD A: And {disfmarker} And um {disfmarker} whatever the normalization , actually . If we use n neural network , even if the features are not correctly normalized , we jump to ninety percent . So {disfmarker}
Professor D: So we go from eighty - si eighty - eight point six to {disfmarker} to ninety , or something .
PhD A: Well , ninety {disfmarker} No , I {disfmarker} I mean ninety It 's around eighty - nine , ninety , eighty - eight .
Professor D: Eighty - nine .
PhD A: Well , there are minor {disfmarker} minor differences .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: And then adding the MSG does nothing , basically .
PhD A: No .
Professor D: Yeah . OK .
PhD A: Uh For Italian , yeah .
Professor D: For this case , right ?
PhD A: Um .
Professor D: Alright . So , um {disfmarker} So actually , the answer for experiments with one is that adding MSG , if you {disfmarker} uh does not help in that case .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Um {disfmarker}
PhD A: But w Yeah .
Professor D: The other ones , we 'd have to look at it , but {disfmarker} And the multi - English , does uh {disfmarker} So if we think of this in error rates , we start off with , uh eighteen percent error rate , roughly .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Um {pause} and {pause} we uh almost , uh cut that in half by um putting in the on - line normalization and the neural net .
PhD A: Yeah
Professor D: And the MSG doesn't however particularly affect things .
PhD A: No .
Professor D: And we cut off , I guess about twenty - five percent of the error . Uh {pause} no , not quite that , is it . Uh , two point six out of eighteen . About , um {pause} sixteen percent or something of the error , um , if we use multi - English instead of the matching condition .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor D: Not matching condition , but uh , the uh , Italian training .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: OK .
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD B: We select these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these tasks because it 's the more difficult .
Professor D: Yes , good . OK ? So then you 're assuming multi - English is closer to the kind of thing that you could use since you 're not gonna have matching , uh , data for the {disfmarker} uh for the new {disfmarker} for the other languages and so forth . Um , one qu thing is that , uh {disfmarker} I think I asked you this before , but I wanna double check . When you say " ME " in these other tests , that 's the multi - English ,
PhD A: That 's {disfmarker} it 's a part {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}
Professor D: but it is not all of the multi - English , right ? It is some piece of {disfmarker} part of it .
PhD A: Or , one million frames .
Professor D: And the multi - English is how much ?
PhD B: You have here the information .
PhD A: It 's one million and a half . Yeah .
Professor D: Oh , so you used almost all You used two thirds of it ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: you think . So , it it 's still {disfmarker} it hurts you {disfmarker} seems to hurt you a fair amount to add in this French and Spanish .
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: I wonder why Yeah . Uh .
Grad C: Well Stephane was saying that they weren't hand - labeled ,
PhD A: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad C: the French and the Spanish .
PhD B: The Spanish . Maybe for that .
Professor D: Hmm .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: It 's still {disfmarker} OK . Alright , go ahead . And then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker}
PhD B: Um . Mmm , with the experiment type - two , I {disfmarker} first I tried to to combine , nnn , some feature from the MLP and other feature {disfmarker} another feature .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And we s we can {disfmarker} first the feature are without delta and delta - delta , and we can see that in the situation , uh , the MSG - three , the same help nothing .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And then I do the same but with the delta and delta - delta {disfmarker} PLP delta and delta - delta . And they all p but they all put off the MLP is it without delta and delta - delta . And we have a l little bit less result than the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the baseline PLP with delta and delta - delta .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Maybe if {disfmarker} when we have the new {disfmarker} the new {pause} neural network trained with PLP delta and delta - delta , maybe the final result must be better . I don't know .
PhD A: Actually , just to be some more {disfmarker}
PhD B: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD A: Do This number , this eighty - seven point one number , has to be compared with the
Professor D: Yes , yeah , I mean it can't be compared with the other
PhD A: Which number ?
Professor D: cuz this is , uh {disfmarker} with multi - English , uh , training .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: So you have to compare it with the one over that you 've got in a box , which is that , uh the eighty - four point six .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Right ?
PhD A: Uh .
Professor D: So {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah , but I mean in this case for the eighty - seven point one we used MLP outputs for the PLP net
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD A: and straight features with delta - delta . And straight features with delta - delta gives you what 's on the first sheet .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Yeah . Not t not
PhD A: It 's eight eighty - eight point six .
Professor D: tr No . No . No .
PhD B: Yes .
Professor D: Not trained with multi - English .
PhD A: Uh , yeah , but th this is the second configuration .
PhD B: No , but they {disfmarker} they feature @ @ without {disfmarker}
PhD A: So we use feature out uh , net outputs together with features . So yeah , this is not {disfmarker} perhaps not clear here but in this table , the first column is for MLP and the second for the features .
Professor D: Eh . {comment} Oh , I see . Ah . So you 're saying w so asking the question , " What {disfmarker} what has adding the MLP done to improve over the ,
PhD A: So , just {disfmarker} Yeah so , actually it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it decreased the {disfmarker} the accuracy .
Professor D: uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: Yes .
PhD A: Because we have eighty - eight point six .
Professor D: Uh - huh .
PhD A: And even the MLP alone {disfmarker} What gives the MLP alone ? Multi - English PLP . Oh no , it gives eighty - three point six . So we have our eighty - three point six and now eighty - eighty point six ,
PhD B: But {disfmarker}
PhD A: that gives eighty - seven point one .
Professor D: Mm - hmm . Eighty - s I thought it was eighty Oh , OK , eighty - three point six and eighty {disfmarker} eighty - eight point six .
PhD A: Eighty - three point six . Eighty {disfmarker}
Professor D: OK .
PhD A: Is th is that right ? Yeah ?
PhD B: Yeah . But {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker} but maybe if we have the neural network trained with the PLP {pause} delta and delta - delta , maybe tha this can help .
PhD A: Perhaps , yeah .
Professor D: Well , that 's {disfmarker} that 's one thing , but see the other thing is that , um , I mean it 's good to take the difficult case , but let 's {disfmarker} let 's consider what that means . What {disfmarker} what we 're saying is that one o one of the things that {disfmarker} I mean my interpretation of your {disfmarker} your s original suggestion is something like this , as motivation . When we train on data that is in one sense or another , similar to the testing data , then we get a win by having discriminant training .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: When we train on something that 's quite different , we have a potential to have some problems .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: And , um , if we get something that helps us when it 's somewhat similar , and doesn't hurt us too much when it {disfmarker} when it 's quite different , that 's maybe not so bad .
PhD A: Yeah . Mmm .
Professor D: So the question is , if you took the same combination , and you tried it out on , uh {disfmarker} on say digits ,
PhD A: On TI - digits ? OK .
Professor D: you know , d Was that experiment done ?
PhD A: No , not yet .
Professor D: Yeah , OK . Uh , then does that , eh {disfmarker} you know maybe with similar noise conditions and so forth , {comment} does it {disfmarker} does it then look much better ?
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: And so what is the range over these different kinds of uh {disfmarker} of tests ? So , an anyway . OK , go ahead .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD B: And , with this type of configuration which I do on experiment using the new neural net with name broad klatt s twenty - seven , uh , d I have found more or less the same result .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: So , it 's slightly better ,
PhD B: Little bit better ?
PhD A: yeah .
Professor D: Slightly better .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD B: Slightly bet better . Yes , is better .
Professor D: And {disfmarker} and you know again maybe if you use the , uh , delta {pause} there , uh , you would bring it up to where it was , uh you know at least about the same for a difficult case .
PhD B: Yeah , maybe . Maybe . Maybe .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD B: Oh , yeah .
PhD A: Yeah . Well , so perhaps let 's {disfmarker} let 's jump at the last experiment .
PhD B: Oh , yeah .
Professor D: So .
PhD A: It 's either less information from the neural network if we use only the silence output .
PhD B: i
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: It 's again better . So it 's eighty - nine point {disfmarker} point one .
PhD B: Yeah ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and we have only forty {disfmarker} forty feature
PhD A: So .
PhD B: because in this situation we have one hundred and three feature .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah . And then w with the first configuration , I f I am found that work , uh , doesn't work {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: uh , well , work , but is better , the second configuration . Because I {disfmarker} for the del Engli - PLP delta and delta - delta , here I have eighty - five point three accuracy , and with the second configuration I have eighty - seven point one .
Professor D: Um , by the way , there is a another , uh , suggestion that would apply , uh , to the second configuration , um , which , uh , was made , uh , by , uh , Hari . And that was that , um , if you have {disfmarker} uh feed two streams into HTK , um , and you , uh , change the , uh variances {disfmarker} if you scale the variances associated with , uh these streams um , you can effectively scale {pause} the streams . Right ? So , um , you know , without changing the scripts for HTK , which is the rule here , uh , you can still change the variances
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: which would effectively change the scale of these {disfmarker} these , uh , two streams that come in .
PhD A: Uh , {comment} yeah .
Professor D: And , um , so , um , if you do that , for instance it may be the case that , um , the MLP should not be considered as strongly , for instance .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: And , um , so this is just setting them to be , excuse me , of equal {disfmarker} equal weight . Maybe it shouldn't be equal weight .
PhD B: Maybe .
Professor D: Right ? You know , I I 'm sorry to say that gives more experiments if we wanted to look at that , but {disfmarker} but , uh , um , you know on the other hand it 's just experiments at the level of the HTK recognition .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: It 's not even the HTK ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: uh , uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor D: Well , I guess you have to do the HTK training also .
PhD B: so this is what we decided to do .
Professor D: Uh , do you ? Let me think . Maybe you don't . Uh . Yeah , you have to change the {disfmarker} No , you can just do it in {disfmarker} as {disfmarker} once you 've done the training {disfmarker}
Grad C: And then you can vary it . Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah , the training is just coming up with the variances so I guess you could {disfmarker} you could just scale them all .
PhD A: Scale
Professor D: Variances .
PhD A: Yeah . But {disfmarker} Is it {disfmarker} i th I mean the HTK models are diagonal covariances , so I d Is it {disfmarker}
Professor D: That 's uh , exactly the point , I think , that if you change {disfmarker} um , change what they are {disfmarker}
PhD A: Hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor D: It 's diagonal covariance matrices , but you say what those variances are .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: So , that {disfmarker} you know , it 's diagonal , but the diagonal means th that then you 're gonna {disfmarker} it 's gonna {disfmarker} it 's gonna internally multiply it {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh , {vocalsound} uh , i it im uh implicitly exponentiated to get probabilities , and so it 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's going to affect the range of things if you change the {disfmarker} change the variances {pause} of some of the features .
PhD A: Mmm . Mmm .
PhD B: do ?
Professor D: So , i it 's precisely given that model you can very simply affect , uh , the s the strength that you apply the features . That was {disfmarker} that was , uh , Hari 's suggestion .
PhD A: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor D: So , um {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah . So . So it could just be that h treating them equally , tea treating two streams equally is just {disfmarker} just not the right thing to do . Of course it 's potentially opening a can of worms because , you know , maybe it should be a different {vocalsound} number for {disfmarker} for each {vocalsound} kind of {pause} test set , or something ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: but {disfmarker} OK .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: So I guess the other thing is to take {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} if one were to take , uh , you know , a couple of the most successful of these ,
PhD A: Yeah , and test across everything .
Professor D: and uh {disfmarker} Yeah , try all these different tests .
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: Alright . Uh .
PhD A: So , the next point , yeah , we 've had some discussion with Steve and Shawn , um , about their um , uh , articulatory stuff , um . So we 'll perhaps start something next week .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Um , discussion with Hynek , Sunil and Pratibha for trying to plug in their our {disfmarker} our networks with their {disfmarker} within their block diagram , uh , where to plug in the {disfmarker} the network , uh , after the {disfmarker} the feature , before as um a as a plugin or as a anoth another path , discussion about multi - band and TRAPS , um , actually Hynek would like to see , perhaps if you remember the block diagram there is , uh , temporal LDA followed b by a spectral LDA for each uh critical band . And he would like to replace these by a network which would , uh , make the system look like a TRAP . Well , basically , it would be a TRAP system . Basically , this is a TRAP system {disfmarker} kind of TRAP system , I mean , but where the neural network are replaced by LDA . Hmm . {vocalsound} Um , yeah , and about multi - band , uh , I started multi - band MLP trainings , um mmh {comment} Actually , I w I w hhh {comment} prefer to do exactly what I did when I was in Belgium . So I take exactly the same configurations , seven bands with nine frames of context , and we just train on TIMIT , and on the large database , so , with SPINE and everything . And , mmm , I 'm starting to train also , networks with larger contexts . So , this would {disfmarker} would be something between TRAPS and multi - band because we still have quite large bands , and {disfmarker} but with a lot of context also . So Um Yeah , we still have to work on Finnish , um , basically , to make a decision on which MLP can be the best across the different languages . For the moment it 's the TIMIT network , and perhaps the network trained on everything . So . Now we can test these two networks on {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with delta and large networks . Well , test them also on Finnish
PhD B: Mmm .
PhD A: and see which one is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the best . Uh , well , the next part of the document is , well , basically , a kind of summary of what {disfmarker} everything that has been done . So . We have seventy - nine M L Ps trained on one , two , three , four , uh , three , four , five , six , seven ten {disfmarker} on ten different databases .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Uh , the number of frames is bad also , so we have one million and a half for some , three million for other , and six million for the last one . Uh , yeah ! {comment} As we mentioned , TIMIT is the only that 's hand - labeled , and perhaps this is what makes the difference . Um . Yeah , the other are just Viterbi - aligned . So these seventy - nine MLP differ on different things . First , um with respect to the on - line normalization , there are {disfmarker} that use bad on - line normalization , and other good on - line normalization . Um . With respect to the features , with respect to the use of delta or no , uh with respect to the hidden layer size and to the targets . Uh , but of course we don't have all the combination of these different parameters Um . s What 's this ? We only have two hundred eighty six different tests And no not two thousand .
Professor D: Ugh ! I was impressed boy , two thousand .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD B: Ah , yes .
Professor D: OK .
PhD B: I say this morning that @ @ thought it was the {disfmarker}
Professor D: Alright , now I 'm just slightly impressed , OK .
PhD A: Um . Yeah , basically the observation is what we discussed already . The MSG problem , um , the fact that the MLP trained on target task decreased the error rate . but when the M - MLP is trained on the um {disfmarker} is not trained on the target task , it increased the error rate compared to using straight features . Except if the features are bad {disfmarker} uh , actually except if the features are not correctly on - line normalized . In this case the tandem is still better even if it 's trained on {disfmarker} not on the target digits .
Professor D: Yeah . So it sounds like {vocalsound} yeah , the net corrects some of the problems with some poor normalization .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: But if you can do good normalization it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh {disfmarker} OK .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD A: Uh , so the fourth point is , yeah , the TIMIT plus noise seems to be the training set that gives better {disfmarker} the best network .
Professor D: So So - Let me {disfmarker} bef before you go on to the possible issues .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: So , on the MSG uh problem um , I think that in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} um , in the short {pause} time {pause} solution um , that is , um , trying to figure out what we can proceed forward with to make the greatest progress ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: uh , much as I said with JRASTA , even though I really like JRASTA and I really like MSG ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: I think it 's kind of in category that it 's , it {disfmarker} it may be complicated .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: And uh it might be {disfmarker} if someone 's interested in it , uh , certainly encourage anybody to look into it in the longer term , once we get out of this particular rush {pause} uh for results .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: But in the short term , unless you have some {disfmarker} some s strong idea of what 's wrong ,
PhD A: I don't know at all but I 've {disfmarker} perhaps {disfmarker} I have the feeling that it 's something that 's quite {disfmarker} quite simple or just like nnn , no high - pass filter
Professor D: Yeah , probably .
PhD A: or {disfmarker} Mmm . Yeah . {pause} My {disfmarker} But I don't know .
Professor D: There 's supposed to {disfmarker} well MSG is supposed to have a an on - line normalization though , right ?
PhD A: It 's {disfmarker} There is , yeah , an AGC - kind of AGC . Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah , but also there 's an on - line norm besides the AGC , there 's an on - line normalization that 's supposed to be uh , yeah ,
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: taking out means and variances and so forth . So .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: In fac in fact the on - line normalization that we 're using came from the MSG design ,
PhD A: Um .
Professor D: so it 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah . But this was the bad on - line normalization . Actually . Uh . Are your results are still with the bad {disfmarker} the bad {disfmarker}
PhD B: Maybe , may {disfmarker} No ? With the better {disfmarker}
PhD A: With the O - OLN - two ?
PhD B: No ?
PhD A: Ah yeah , you have {disfmarker} you have OLN - two ,
PhD B: Oh ! Yeah , yeah , yeah ! With " two " , with " on - line - two " .
PhD A: yeah .
PhD B: Yeah , yeah ,
Professor D: " On - line - two " is good .
PhD A: So it 's , is the good yeah .
PhD B: yeah . Yep , it 's a good .
Professor D: " Two " is good ?
PhD A: And {disfmarker}
Professor D: No , " two " is bad .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD B: Well , actually , it 's good with the ch with the good .
Professor D: OK . Yeah . So {disfmarker} Yeah , I {disfmarker} I agree . It 's probably something simple uh , i if {disfmarker} if uh someone , you know , uh , wants to play with it for a little bit . I mean , you 're gonna do what you 're gonna do
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: but {disfmarker} but my {disfmarker} my guess would be that it 's something that is a simple thing that could take a while to find .
PhD A: But {disfmarker} Yeah . Mmm . I see , yeah .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD A: And {disfmarker}
Professor D: Uh . {comment} And the other {disfmarker} the results uh , observations two and three , Um , is
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: uh {disfmarker} Yeah , that 's pretty much what we 've seen . That 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} what we were concerned about is that if it 's not on the target task {disfmarker} If it 's on the target task then it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it helps to have the MLP transforming it .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: If it uh {disfmarker} if it 's not on the target task , then , depending on how different it is , uh you can get uh , a reduction in performance .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: And the question is now how to {disfmarker} how to get one and not the other ? Or how to {disfmarker} how to ameliorate the {disfmarker} the problems .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: Um , because it {disfmarker} it certainly does {disfmarker} is nice to have in there , when it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} when there is something like the training data .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Um . Yeah . So , {pause} the {disfmarker} the reason {disfmarker} Yeah , the reason is that the {disfmarker} perhaps the target {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the task dependency {disfmarker} the language dependency , {vocalsound} and the noise dependency {disfmarker}
Professor D: So that 's what you say th there . I see .
PhD A: Well , the e e But this is still not clear because , um , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't think we have enough result to talk about the {disfmarker} the language dependency . Well , the TIMIT network is still the best but there is also an the other difference , the fact that it 's {disfmarker} it 's hand - labeled .
Professor D: Hey ! Um , just {disfmarker} you can just sit here . Uh , I d I don't think we want to mess with the microphones but it 's uh {disfmarker} Just uh , have a seat . Um . s Summary of the first uh , uh forty - five minutes is that some stuff work and {disfmarker} works , and some stuff doesn't OK ,
PhD A: We still have uh {pause} this {disfmarker} One of these perhaps ?
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Yeah , I guess we can do a little better than that but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think if you {disfmarker} if you start off with the other one , actually , that sort of has it in words and then th that has it the {pause} associated results .
PhD B: Um .
Professor D: OK . So you 're saying that um , um , although from what we see , yes there 's what you would expect in terms of a language dependency and a noise dependency . That is , uh , when the neural net is trained on one of those and tested on something different , we don't do as well as in the target thing . But you 're saying that uh , it is {disfmarker} Although that general thing is observable so far , there 's something you 're not completely convinced about . And {disfmarker} and what is that ? I mean , you say " not clear yet " . What {disfmarker} what do you mean ?
PhD A: Uh , mmm , uh , {comment} I mean , that the {disfmarker} the fact that s Well , for {disfmarker} for TI - digits the TIMIT net is the best , which is the English net .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: But the other are slightly worse . But you have two {disfmarker} two effects , the effect of changing language and the effect of training on something that 's {pause} Viterbi - aligned instead of hand {disfmarker} hand - labeled .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD A: So . Um . Yeah .
Professor D: Do you think the alignments are bad ? I mean , have you looked at the alignments at all ? What the Viterbi alignment 's doing ?
PhD A: Mmm . I don't {disfmarker} I don't know . Did - did you look at the Spanish alignments Carmen ?
PhD B: Mmm , no .
Professor D: Might be interesting to look at it . Because , I mean , that is just looking but um , um {disfmarker} It 's not clear to me you necessarily would do so badly from a Viterbi alignment . It depends how good the recognizer is
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the engine is that 's doing the alignment .
PhD A: Yeah . But {disfmarker} Yeah . But , perhaps it 's not really the {disfmarker} the alignment that 's bad but the {disfmarker} just the ph phoneme string that 's used for the alignment
Professor D: Aha !
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: The pronunciation models and so forth
PhD A: I mean {pause} for {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} It 's single pronunciation , uh {disfmarker}
Professor D: Aha .
PhD A: French {disfmarker} French s uh , phoneme strings were corrected manually
Professor D: I see .
PhD A: so we asked people to listen to the um {disfmarker} the sentence and we gave the phoneme string and they kind of correct them . But still , there {disfmarker} there might be errors just in the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the ph string of phonemes . Mmm . Um . Yeah , so this is not really the Viterbi alignment , in fact , yeah . Um , the third {disfmarker} The third uh issue is the noise dependency perhaps but , well , this is not clear yet because all our nets are trained on the same noises and {disfmarker}
Professor D: I thought some of the nets were trained with SPINE and so forth . So it {disfmarker} And that has other noise .
PhD A: Yeah . So {disfmarker} Yeah . But {disfmarker} Yeah . Results are only coming for {disfmarker} for this net . Mmm .
Professor D: OK , yeah , just don't {disfmarker} just need more {disfmarker} more results there with that @ @ .
PhD A: Yeah . Um . So . Uh , from these results we have some questions with answers . What should be the network input ? Um , PLP work as well as MFCC , I mean . Um . But it seems impor important to use the delta . Uh , with respect to the network size , there 's one experiment that 's still running and we should have the result today , comparing network with five hundred and {pause} one thousand units . So , nnn , still no answer actually .
Professor D: Hm - hmm .
PhD A: Uh , the training set , well , some kind of answer . We can , we can tell which training set gives the best result , but {vocalsound} we don't know exactly why . Uh , so .
Professor D: Uh . Right , I mean the multi - English so far is {disfmarker} is the best .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: " Multi - multi - English " just means " TIMIT " ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: right ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: So uh That 's {disfmarker} Yeah . So . And {disfmarker} and when you add other things in to {disfmarker} to broaden it , it gets worse {pause} uh typically .
PhD A: Mmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD A: Then uh some questions without answers .
Professor D: OK .
PhD A: Uh , training set , um ,
Professor D: Uh - huh .
PhD A: uh , training targets {disfmarker}
Professor D: I like that . The training set is both questions , with answers and without answers .
PhD A: It 's {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .
Professor D: It 's sort of , yes {disfmarker} it 's mul it 's multi - uh - purpose .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: OK .
PhD A: Uh , training s Right . So {disfmarker} Yeah , the training targets actually , the two of the main issues perhaps are still the language dependency {vocalsound} and the noise dependency . And perhaps to try to reduce the language dependency , we should focus on finding some other kind of training targets .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: And labeling s labeling seems important uh , because of TIMIT results .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Uh . For moment you use {disfmarker} we use phonetic targets but we could also use articulatory targets , soft targets , and perhaps even , um use networks that doesn't do classification but just regression so uh , train to have neural networks that um , um , uh ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: does a regression and well , basically com com compute features and noit not , nnn , features without noise . I mean uh , transform the fea noisy features {vocalsound} in other features that are not noisy . But continuous features . Not uh uh , hard targets .
Professor D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Uh {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah , that {pause} seems like a good thing to do , probably , not uh again a short - term sort of thing .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: I mean one of the things about that is that um it 's {disfmarker} e u the ri I guess the major risk you have there of being {disfmarker} is being dependent on {disfmarker} very dependent on the kind of noise and {disfmarker} and so forth .
PhD A: Yeah . f But , yeah .
Professor D: Uh . But it 's another thing to try .
PhD A: So , this is w w i wa wa this is one thing , this {disfmarker} this could be {disfmarker} could help {disfmarker} could help perhaps to reduce language dependency and for the noise part um we could combine this with other approaches , like , well , the Kleinschmidt approach . So the d the idea of putting all the noise that we can find inside a database . I think Kleinschmidt was using more than fifty different noises to train his network ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: and {disfmarker} So this is one {vocalsound} approach and the other is multi - band {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh , that I think is more robust to the noisy changes .
Professor D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD A: So perhaps , I think something like multi - band trained on a lot of noises with uh , features - based targets could {disfmarker} could {disfmarker} could help .
Professor D: Yeah , if you {disfmarker} i i It 's interesting thought maybe if you just trained up {disfmarker} I mean w yeah , one {disfmarker} one fantasy would be you have something like articulatory targets and you have {pause} um some reasonable database , um but then {disfmarker} which is um {vocalsound} copied over many times with a range of different noises ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: And uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If {disfmarker} Cuz what you 're trying to {pause} do is come up with a {disfmarker} a core , reasonable feature set which is then gonna be used uh , by the {disfmarker} the uh HMM {pause} system .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: So . Yeah , OK .
PhD A: So , um , yeah . The future work is , {pause} well , try to connect to the {disfmarker} to make {disfmarker} to plug in the system to the OGI system . Um , there are still open questions there , where to put the MLP basically .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Um .
Professor D: And I guess , you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the real open question , I mean , e u there 's lots of open questions , but one of the core quote {comment} " open questions " for that is um , um , if we take the uh {disfmarker} you know , the best ones here , maybe not just the best one , but the best few or something {disfmarker} You want the most promising group from these other experiments . Um , how well do they do over a range of these different tests , not just the Italian ?
PhD A: Mmm ,
Professor D: Um . And y
PhD A: Yeah , yeah .
Professor D: y {pause} Right ? And then um {disfmarker} then see , {pause} again , how {disfmarker} We know that there 's a mis there 's a uh {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a loss in performance when the neural net is trained on conditions that are different than {disfmarker} than , uh we 're gonna test on , but well , if you look over a range of these different tests um , how well do these different ways of combining the straight features with the MLP features , uh stand up over that range ?
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: That 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that seems like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the real question . And if you know that {disfmarker} So if you just take PLP with uh , the double - deltas . Assume that 's the p the feature . look at these different ways of combining it . And uh , take {disfmarker} let 's say , just take uh multi - English cause that works pretty well for the training .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: And just look {disfmarker} take that case and then look over all the different things . How does that {disfmarker} How does that compare between the {disfmarker}
PhD A: So all the {disfmarker} all the test sets you mean , yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: All the different test sets ,
PhD A: And {disfmarker}
Professor D: and for {disfmarker} and for the couple different ways that you have of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of combining them .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: Um . {pause} How well do they stand up , over the {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mmm . And perhaps doing this for {disfmarker} cha changing the variance of the streams and so on {pause} getting different scaling {disfmarker}
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: That 's another possibility if you have time , yeah . Yeah .
PhD A: Um . Yeah , so thi this sh would be more working on the MLP as an additional path instead of an insert to the {disfmarker} to their diagram .
Professor D:
PhD A: Cuz {disfmarker} Yeah . Perhaps the insert idea is kind of strange because nnn , they {disfmarker} they make LDA and then we will again add a network does discriminate anal nnn , that discriminates ,
Professor D: Yeah . {pause} It 's a little strange
PhD A: or {disfmarker} ? Mmm ?
Professor D: but on the other hand they did it before .
PhD A: Mmm . And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and
Professor D: Um the
PhD A: yeah . And because also perhaps we know that the {disfmarker} when we have very good features the MLP doesn't help . So . I don't know .
Professor D: Um , the other thing , though , is that um {disfmarker} So . Uh , we {disfmarker} we wanna get their path running here , right ? If so , we can add this other stuff .
PhD A: Um .
Professor D: as an additional path right ?
PhD A: Yeah , the {disfmarker} the way we want to do {disfmarker}
Professor D: Cuz they 're doing LDA {pause} RASTA .
PhD A: The d What ?
Professor D: They 're doing LDA RASTA ,
PhD A: Yeah , the way we want to do it perhaps is to {disfmarker} just to get the VAD labels and the final features .
Professor D: yeah ?
PhD A: So they will send us the {disfmarker} Well , provide us with the feature files ,
Professor D: I see . I see .
PhD A: and with VAD uh , binary labels so that we can uh , get our MLP features and filter them with the VAD and then combine them with their f feature stream . So .
Professor D: I see . So we {disfmarker} So . First thing of course we 'd wanna do there is to make sure that when we get those labels of final features is that we get the same results as them . Without putting in a second path .
PhD A: Uh . You mean {disfmarker} Oh , yeah ! Just re re retraining r retraining the HTK ?
Professor D: Yeah just th w i i Just to make sure that we {pause} have {disfmarker} we understand properly what things are , our very first thing to do is to {disfmarker} is to double check that we get the exact same results as them on HTK .
PhD A: Oh yeah . Yeah , OK . Mmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: Uh , I mean , I don't know that we need to r
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: Um {pause} Do we need to retrain I mean we can just take the re their training files also . But . {pause} But , uh just for the testing , jus just make sure that we get the same results {pause} so we can duplicate it before we add in another {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mmm . OK .
Professor D: Cuz otherwise , you know , we won't know what things mean .
PhD A: Oh , yeah . OK . And um . Yeah , so fff , LogRASTA , I don't know if we want to {disfmarker} We can try {pause} networks with LogRASTA filtered features .
Professor D: Maybe .
PhD A: Mmm . I 'm sorry ? Yeah . Well {disfmarker} Yeah . But {disfmarker}
Professor D: Oh ! You know , the other thing is when you say comb I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , I 'm interrupting . {comment} that u Um , uh , when you 're talking about combining multiple features , um {disfmarker} Suppose we said , " OK , we 've got these different features and so forth , but PLP seems {pause} pretty good . " If we take the approach that Mike did and have {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: I mean , one of the situations we have is we have these different conditions . We have different languages , we have different {disfmarker} {vocalsound} different noises , Um {pause} If we have some drastically different conditions and we just train up different M L Ps {pause} with them .
PhD A:
Professor D: And put {disfmarker} put them together . What {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} What Mike found , for the reverberation case at least , I mean {disfmarker} I mean , who knows if it 'll work for these other ones . That you did have nice interpolative effects . That is , that yes , if you knew {pause} what the reverberation condition was gonna be and you trained for that , then you got the best results . But if you had , say , a heavily - reverberation ca heavy - reverberation case and a no - reverberation case , uh , and then you fed the thing , uh something that was a modest amount of reverberation then you 'd get some result in between the two . So it was sort of {disfmarker} behaved reasonably . Is tha that a fair {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah . So you {disfmarker} you think it 's perhaps better to have several M L Yeah but {disfmarker}
Professor D: It works better if {pause} what ?
PhD A: Yea
Professor D: I see . Well , see , i oc You were doing some something that was {disfmarker} So maybe the analogy isn't quite right . You were doing something that was in way a little better behaved . You had reverb for a single variable which was re uh , uh , reverberation . Here the problem seems to be is that we don't have a hug a really huge net with a really huge amount of training data . But we have s f {pause} for this kind of task , I would think , {pause} sort of a modest amount . I mean , a million frames actually isn't that much . We have a modest amount of {disfmarker} of uh training data from a couple different conditions , and then uh {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} yeah , that {disfmarker} and the real situation is that there 's enormous variability that we anticipate in the test set in terms of language , and noise type uh , and uh , {pause} uh , channel characteristic , sort of all over the map . A bunch of different dimensions . And so , I 'm just concerned that we don't really have {pause} um , the data to train up {disfmarker} I mean one of the things that we were seeing is that when we added in {disfmarker} we still don't have a good explanation for this , but we are seeing that we 're adding in uh , a fe few different databases and uh the performance is getting worse and uh , when we just take one of those databases that 's a pretty good one , it actually is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is better . And uh that says to me , yes , that , you know , there might be some problems with the pronunciation models that some of the databases we 're adding in or something like that . But one way or another {pause} we don't have uh , seemingly , the ability {pause} to represent , in the neural net of the size that we have , um , all of the variability {pause} that we 're gonna be covering . So that I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm hoping that um , this is another take on the efficiency argument you 're making , which is I 'm hoping that with moderate size neural nets , uh , that uh if we {disfmarker} if they look at more constrained conditions they {disfmarker} they 'll have enough parameters to really represent them . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah .
PhD A: So doing both is {disfmarker} is not {disfmarker} is not right , you mean , or {disfmarker} ? Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I just sort of have a feeling {disfmarker}
PhD A: But {disfmarker} Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Yeah . I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i i e The um {disfmarker} I think it 's true that the OGI folk found that using LDA {pause} RASTA , which is a kind of LogRASTA , it 's just that they have the {disfmarker} I mean it 's done in the log domain , as I recall , and it 's {disfmarker} it uh {disfmarker} it 's just that they d it 's trained up , right ? That that um benefitted from on - line normalization . So they did {disfmarker} At least in their case , it did seem to be somewhat complimentary . So will it be in our case , where we 're using the neural net ? I mean they {disfmarker} they were not {disfmarker} not using the neural net . Uh I don't know . OK , so the other things you have here are uh , trying to improve results from a single {disfmarker} Yeah . Make stuff better . OK . Uh . {vocalsound} Yeah . And CPU memory issues . Yeah . We 've been sort of ignoring that , haven't we ?
PhD A: Yeah , so I don't know .
Professor D: But {disfmarker}
PhD A: But we have to address the problem of CPU and memory we {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah , but I li Well , I think {disfmarker} My impression {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you folks have been looking at this more than me . But my impression was that {vocalsound} uh , there was a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a strict constraint on the delay ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: but beyond that it was kind of that uh using less memory was better , and {vocalsound} using less CPU was better . Something like that ,
PhD A: Yeah , but {disfmarker}
Professor D: right ?
PhD A: Yeah . So , yeah , but we 've {disfmarker} I don't know . We have to get some reference point to where we {disfmarker} Well , what 's a reasonable number ? Perhaps be because if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's too large or {disfmarker} large or @ @ {disfmarker}
Professor D: Um , well I don't think we 're {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} completely off the wall . I mean I think that if we {disfmarker} if we have {disfmarker} Uh , I mean the ultimate fall back that we could do {disfmarker} If we find uh {disfmarker} I mean we may find that we {disfmarker} we 're not really gonna worry about the M L You know , if the MLP ultimately , after all is said and done , doesn't really help then we won't have it in .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: If the MLP does , we find , help us enough in some conditions , uh , we might even have more than one MLP . We could simply say that is uh , done on the uh , server .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: And it 's uh {disfmarker} We do the other manipulations that we 're doing before that . So , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} {pause} that 's OK .
PhD A: And {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor D: So I think the key thing was um , this plug into OGI . Um , what {disfmarker} what are they {disfmarker} What are they gonna be working {disfmarker} Do we know what they 're gonna be working on while we take their features ,
PhD A: They 're {disfmarker} They 're starting to wor work on some kind of multi - band .
Professor D: and {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: So . Um {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} that was Pratibha . Sunil , what was he doing , do you remember ?
PhD B: Sunil ?
PhD A: Yeah . He was doing something new or {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: I {disfmarker} I don't re I didn't remember . Maybe he 's working with {pause} neural network .
PhD A: I don't think so . Trying to tune wha networks ?
PhD B: Yeah , I think so .
PhD A: I think they were also mainly , well , working a little bit of new things , like networks and multi - band , but mainly trying to tune their {disfmarker} their system as it is now to {disfmarker} just trying to get the best from this {disfmarker} this architecture .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD A:
Professor D: OK . So I guess the way it would work is that you 'd get {disfmarker} There 'd be some point where you say , " OK , this is their version - one " or whatever , and we get these VAD labels and features and so forth for all these test sets from them ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: and then um , uh , that 's what we work with . We have a certain level we try to improve it with this other path and then um , uh , when it gets to be uh , January some point uh , we say , " OK we {disfmarker} we have shown that we can improve this , in this way . So now uh {pause} um {pause} what 's your newest version ? " And then maybe they 'll have something that 's better and then we {disfmarker} we 'd combine it . This is always hard . I mean I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I used to work {pause} with uh folks who were trying to improve a good uh , HMM system with uh {disfmarker} with a neural net system and uh , it was {pause} a common problem that you 'd {disfmarker} Oh , and this {disfmarker} Actually , this is true not just for neural nets but just for {disfmarker} in general if people were {pause} working with uh , rescoring uh , N - best lists or lattices that come {disfmarker} came from uh , a mainstream recognizer . Uh , You get something from the {disfmarker} the other site at one point and you work really hard on making it better with rescoring . But they 're working really hard , too . So by the time {pause} you have uh , improved their score , they have also improved their score
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: and now there isn't any difference ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: because the other {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: So , um , I guess at some point we 'll have to
PhD A: So it 's {disfmarker}
Professor D: uh {disfmarker} {comment} Uh , I {disfmarker} I don't know . I think we 're {disfmarker} we 're integrated a little more tightly than happens in a lot of those cases . I think at the moment they {disfmarker} they say that they have a better thing we can {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} e e
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: What takes all the time here is that th we 're trying so many things , presumably uh , in a {disfmarker} in a day we could turn around uh , taking a new set of things from them and {disfmarker} and rescoring it ,
PhD A: Mmm . Yeah . Yeah , perhaps we could .
Professor D: right ? So . Yeah . Well , OK . No , this is {disfmarker} I think this is good . I think that the most wide open thing is the issues about the uh , you know , different trainings . You know , da training targets and noises and so forth .
PhD A: Mmm . So we {disfmarker} we can for {disfmarker} we c we can forget combining multiple features and MLG perhaps ,
Professor D: That 's sort of wide open .
PhD A: or focus more on the targets and on the training data and {disfmarker} ?
Professor D: Yeah , I think for right now um , I th I {disfmarker} I really liked MSG . And I think that , you know , one of the things I liked about it is has such different temporal properties . And um , I think that there is ultimately a really good uh , potential for , you know , bringing in things with different temporal properties . Um , but um , uh , we only have limited time and there 's a lot of other things we have to look at .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: And it seems like much more core questions are issues about the training set and the training targets , and fitting in uh what we 're doing with what they 're doing , and , you know , with limited time . Yeah . I think {pause} we have to start cutting down .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: So uh {disfmarker} I think so , yeah . And then , you know , once we {disfmarker} Um , having gone through this {pause} process and trying many different things , I would imagine that certain things uh , come up that you are curious about uh , that you 'd not getting to and so when the dust settles from the evaluation uh , I think that would time to go back and take whatever intrigued you most , you know , got you most interested uh and uh {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and work with it , you know , for the next round . Uh , as you can tell from these numbers uh , nothing that any of us is gonna do is actually gonna completely solve the problem .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: So . So , {comment} there 'll still be plenty to do . Barry , you 've been pretty quiet .
Grad C: Just listening .
Professor D: Well I figured that , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what were you involved in in this primarily ?
Grad C: Um , {vocalsound} helping out {vocalsound} uh , preparing {disfmarker} Well , they 've been kind of running all the experiments and stuff and I 've been uh , uh w doing some work on the {disfmarker} on the {disfmarker} preparing all {disfmarker} all the data for them to {disfmarker} to um , train and to test on . Um Yeah . Right now , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm focusing mainly on this final project I 'm working on in Jordan 's class .
Professor D: Ah !
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor D: I see . Right . What 's {disfmarker} what 's that ?
Grad C: Um , {vocalsound} I 'm trying to um {disfmarker} So there was a paper in ICSLP about um this {disfmarker} this multi - band um , belief - net structure . {comment} This guy did {disfmarker}
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: uh basically it was two H M Ms with {disfmarker} with a {disfmarker} with a dependency arrow between the two H M
Professor D: Uh - huh .
Grad C: And so I wanna try {disfmarker} try coupling them instead of t having an arrow that {disfmarker} that flows from one sub - band to another sub - band . I wanna try having the arrows go both ways . And um , {vocalsound} I 'm just gonna see if {disfmarker} if that {disfmarker} that better models {pause} um , uh asynchrony in any way or um {disfmarker} {pause} Yeah .
Professor D: Oh ! OK . Well , that sounds interesting .
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor D: OK . Alright . Anything to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you wanted to {disfmarker} No . OK . Silent partner in the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} in the meeting . Oh , we got a laugh out of him , that 's good . OK , everyone h must contribute to the {disfmarker} our {disfmarker} our sound {disfmarker} {vocalsound} sound files here . OK , so speaking of which , if we don't have anything else that we need {disfmarker} You happy with where we are ?
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: Know {disfmarker} know wher know where we 're going ? Uh {disfmarker}
PhD A: I think so , yeah .
Professor D: Yeah , yeah . You {disfmarker} you happy ?
PhD B:
Professor D: You 're happy . OK everyone {pause} should be happy . OK . You don't have to be happy . You 're almost done . Yeah , yeah . OK .
Grad E: Al - actually I should mention {disfmarker} So if {disfmarker} {comment} um , about the Linux machine " Swede . "
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad E: So it looks like the um , neural net tools are installed there .
PhD A: Mmm .
Grad E: And um Dan Ellis {comment} I believe knows something about using that machine so
PhD A: Mmm .
Grad E: If people are interested in {disfmarker} in getting jobs running on that maybe I could help with that .
PhD A: Yeah , but I don't know if we really need now a lot of machines . Well . we could start computing another huge table but {disfmarker} yeah , we {disfmarker}
Professor D: Well . Yeah , I think we want a different table , at least
PhD A: Yeah , sure .
Professor D: Right ? I mean there 's {disfmarker} there 's some different things that we 're trying to get at now .
PhD A: But {disfmarker}
Professor D: But {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah . Mmm .
Professor D: So . Yeah , as far as you can tell , you 're actually OK on C - on CPU uh , for training and so on ? Yeah .
PhD A: Ah yeah . I think so . Well , more is always better , but mmm , I don't think we have to train a lot of networks , now that we know {disfmarker} We just select what works {pause} fine
Professor D: OK . OK .
PhD A: and try to improve this
PhD B: Yeah . to work
Professor D: And we 're OK on {disfmarker} And we 're OK on disk ?
PhD A: and {disfmarker} It 's OK , yeah . Well sometimes we have some problems .
PhD B: Some problems with the {disfmarker}
Professor D: But they 're correctable , uh problems .
PhD A: Yeah , restarting the script basically
PhD B: You know .
PhD A: and {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yes . Yeah , I 'm familiar with {vocalsound} that one , OK . Alright , so uh , {comment} {vocalsound} since uh , we didn't ha get a channel on for you , {comment} you don't have to read any digits but the rest of us will . Uh , is it on ? Well . We didn't uh {disfmarker} I think I won't touch anything cuz I 'm afraid of making the driver crash which it seems to do , {pause} pretty easily . OK , thanks . OK , so we 'll uh {disfmarker} I 'll start off the uh um connect the {disfmarker}
PhD A: My battery is low .
Professor D: Well , let 's hope it works . Maybe you should go first and see so that you 're {disfmarker} OK .
PhD B: batteries ?
Grad C: Yeah , your battery 's going down too .
Professor D: Transcript uh two {disfmarker}
Grad C: Carmen 's battery is d going down too .
Professor D: Oh , OK . Yeah . Why don't you go next then . OK . Guess we 're done . OK , uh so . Just finished digits . Yeah , so . Uh Well , it 's good . I think {disfmarker} I guess we can turn off our microphones now .
Grad C: Just pull the batteries out .
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Professor B: I think for two years we were two months , uh , away from being done .
PhD A: And what was that , Morgan ? What project ?
Professor B: Uh , the , uh , TORRENT chip .
PhD A: Oh .
Professor B: Yeah . We were two {disfmarker} we were {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Uh , uh , we went through it {disfmarker} Jim and I went through old emails at one point and {disfmarker} and for two years there was this thing saying , yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're two months away from being done . It was very {disfmarker} very believable schedules , too . I mean , we went through and {disfmarker} with the schedules {disfmarker} and we {disfmarker}
PhD A: It was true for two years .
Professor B: Yeah . Oh , yeah . It was very true .
PhD A: So , should we just do the same kind of deal where we {pause} go around and do , uh , status report {pause} kind of things ? OK . And I guess when Sunil gets here he can do his last or something . So .
Professor B: Yeah . So we {pause} probably should wait for him to come before we do his .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: OK . That 's a good idea .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad F: OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: Any objection ? Do y OK , M
Professor B: All in favor
PhD A: Do you want to start , Morgan ? Do you have anything , or {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: Uh , I don't do anything . I {disfmarker} No , I mean , I {disfmarker} I 'm involved in discussions with {disfmarker} with people about what they 're doing , but I think they 're {disfmarker} since they 're here , they can talk about it themselves .
Grad F: OK . So should I go so that , uh ,
PhD A: Yeah . Why don't you go ahead , Barry ?
Grad F: you 're gonna talk about Aurora stuff , per se ?
PhD A: OK .
Grad F: OK . Um . Well , this past week I 've just been , uh , getting down and dirty into writing my {disfmarker} my proposal . So , um {disfmarker} Mmm . I just finished a section on , uh {disfmarker} on talking about these intermediate categories that I want to classify , um , as a {disfmarker} as a middle step . And , um , I hope to {disfmarker} hope to get this , um {disfmarker} a full rough draft done by , uh , Monday so I can give it to Morgan .
PhD A: When is your , uh , meeting ?
Grad F: Um , my meeting
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad F: with , uh {disfmarker} ? Oh , oh , you mean the {disfmarker} the quals .
PhD A: The quals . Yeah .
Grad F: Uh , the quals are happening in July twenty - fifth .
PhD A: Oh . Soon .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD A: Uh - huh .
Grad F: D - Day .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad F: Uh - huh .
PhD A: So , is the idea you 're going to do this paper and then you pass it out to everybody ahead of time and {disfmarker} ?
Grad F: Right , right . So , y you write up a proposal , and give it to people ahead of time , and you have a short presentation . And , um , and then , um {disfmarker} then everybody asks you questions .
PhD A: Hmm .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD A: I remember now .
Grad F: Yep . So , um .
PhD A: Have you d ? I was just gonna ask , do you want to say any {disfmarker} a little bit about it ,
Grad F: Y s
PhD A: or {disfmarker} ? Mmm .
Grad F: Oh . Uh , a little bit about {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: Wh - what you 're {disfmarker} what you 're gonna {disfmarker} You said {disfmarker} you were talking about the , uh , particular features that you were looking at ,
Grad F: Oh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}
PhD A: or {disfmarker}
Grad F: Right . Well , I was , um , I think one of the perplexing problems is , um , for a while I was thinking that I had to come up with a complete set of intermediate features {disfmarker} in intermediate categories to {disfmarker} to classify right away . But what I 'm thinking now is , I would start with {disfmarker} with a reasonable set . Something {disfmarker} something like , um , um {disfmarker} like , uh , re regular phonetic features , just to {disfmarker} just to start off that way . And do some phone recognition . Um , build a system that , uh , classifies these , um {disfmarker} these feat uh , these intermediate categories using , uh , multi - band techniques . Combine them and do phon phoneme recognition . Look at {disfmarker} then I would look at the errors produced in the phoneme recognition and say , OK , well , I could probably reduce the errors if I included this extra feature or this extra intermediate category . That would {disfmarker} that would reduce certain confusions over other confusions . And then {disfmarker} and then {vocalsound} reiterate . Um , build the intermediate classifiers . Uh , do phoneme recognition . Look at the errors . And then postulate new {disfmarker} or remove , um , intermediate categories . And then do it again .
PhD A: So you 're gonna use TIMIT ?
Grad F: Um , for that {disfmarker} for that part of the {disfmarker} the process , yeah , I would use TIMIT .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: And , um , then {disfmarker} after {disfmarker} after , uh , um , doing TIMIT . Right ?
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Um , that 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that 's , um {disfmarker} that 's just the ph the phone recognition task .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad F: Uh , I wanted to take a look at , um , things that I could model within word . So , I would mov I would then shift the focus to , um , something like Schw - Switchboard , uh , where I 'd {disfmarker} I would be able to , um {disfmarker} to model , um , intermediate categories that span across phonemes ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: not just within the phonemes , themselves , um , and then do the same process there , um , on {disfmarker} on a large vocabulary task like Switchboard . Uh , and for that {disfmarker} for that part I would {disfmarker} I 'd use the SRI recognizer since it 's already set up for {disfmarker} for Switchboard . And I 'd run some {disfmarker} some sort of tandem - style processing with , uh , my intermediate classifiers .
PhD A: Oh . So that 's why you were interested in getting your own features into the SRI files .
Grad F: Yeah . That 's why I {disfmarker} I was asking about that .
PhD A: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah . Um , and I guess that 's {disfmarker} that 's it . Any {disfmarker} any questions ?
PhD A: Sounds good . So you just have a few more weeks , huh ?
Grad F: Um , yeah . A few more .
PhD A: It 's about a month from now ?
Grad F: It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a month and {disfmarker} and a week .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD A: So , uh , you want to go next , Dave ? And we 'll do {disfmarker}
Grad E: Oh . OK , sure . So , um , last week I finally got results from the SRI system about this mean subtraction approach . And , um , we {disfmarker} we got an improvement , uh , in word error rate , training on the TI - digits data set and testing on Meeting Recorder digits of , um , {vocalsound} six percent to four point five percent , um , on the n on the far - mike data using PZM F , but , um , the near - mike performance worsened , um , from one point two percent to two point four percent . And , um , wh why would that be , um , {vocalsound} considering that we actually got an improvement in near - mike performance using HTK ? And so , uh , with some input from , uh , Andreas , I have a theory in two parts . Um , first of all HTK {disfmarker} sorry , SR - the SRI system is doing channel adaptation , and so HTK wasn't . Um , so this , um {disfmarker} This mean subtraction approach will do a kind of channel {pause} normalization and so that might have given the HTK use of it a boost that wouldn't have been applied in the SRI case . And also , um , the {disfmarker} Andreas pointed out the SRI system is using more parameters . It 's got finer - grained acoustic models . So those finer - grained acoustic models could be more sensitive to the artifacts {pause} in the re - synthesized audio . Um . And me and Barry were listening to the re - synthesized audio and sometimes it seems like you get of a bit of an echo of speech in the background . And so that seems like it could be difficult for training , cuz you could have {pause} different phones {pause} lined up with a different foreground phone , {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} depending on {pause} the timing of the echo . So , um , I 'm gonna try training on a larger data set , and then , eh , the system will have seen more examples o of these artifacts and hopefully will be more robust to them . So I 'm planning to use the Macrophone set of , um , read speech , and , um {disfmarker} Hmm .
Professor B: I had another thought just now , which is , uh , remember we were talking before about {disfmarker} we were talking in our meeting about , uh , this stuff that {disfmarker} some of the other stuff that Avendano did , where they were , um , getting rid of low - energy {pause} sections ? Um , uh , if you {disfmarker} if you did a high - pass filtering , as Hirsch did in {pause} late eighties to reduce some of the effects of reverberation , uh , uh , Avendano and Hermansky were arguing that , uh , perhaps one of the reasons for that working was ma may not have even been the filtering so much but the fact that when you filter a {disfmarker} an all - positive power spectrum you get some negative values , and you gotta figure out what to do with them if you 're gonna continue treating this as a power spectrum . So , what {disfmarker} what Hirsch did was , uh , set them to zero {disfmarker} set the negative values to zero . So if you imagine a {disfmarker} a waveform that 's all positive , which is the time trajectory of energy , um , and , uh , shifting it downwards , and then getting rid of the negative parts , that 's essentially throwing away the low - energy things . And it 's the low - energy parts of the speech where the reverberation is most audible . You know , you have the reverberation from higher - energy things showing up in {disfmarker} So in this case you have some artificially imposed {pause} reverberation - like thing . I mean , you 're getting rid of some of the other effects of reverberation , but because you have these non - causal windows , you 're getting these funny things coming in , uh , at n And , um , what if you did {disfmarker} ? I mean , there 's nothing to say that the {disfmarker} the processing for this re - synthesis has to be restricted to trying to get it back to the original , according to some equation . I mean , you also could , uh , just try to make it nicer .
Grad E: Uh - huh .
Professor B: And one of the things you could do is , you could do some sort of VAD - like thing
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and you actually could take very low - energy sections and set them to some {disfmarker} some , uh , very low or {disfmarker} or near zero {pause} value . I mean , uh , I 'm just saying if in fact it turns out that {disfmarker} that these echoes that you 're hearing are , uh {disfmarker}
Grad E: Uh - huh .
Professor B: or pre - echoes , whichever they are {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} are , uh , part of what 's causing the problem , you actually could get rid of them .
Grad E: Uh - huh .
Professor B: Be pretty simple . I mean , you do it in a pretty conservative way
Grad E: OK .
Professor B: so that if you made a mistake you were more likely to {pause} keep in an echo than to throw out speech .
Grad E: Hmm .
PhD G: Um , what is the reverberation time {pause} like {pause} there ?
Grad E: In thi in this room ? Uh {disfmarker}
PhD G: On , uh , the {disfmarker} the one what {disfmarker} the s in the speech that you are {disfmarker} you are using like ?
Grad E: Y Yeah . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know .
Professor B: So , it 's this room .
PhD G: It 's , uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: It 's {disfmarker} it 's this room .
PhD G: Oh , this room ?
Professor B: So {disfmarker}
PhD G: OK .
Professor B: so it 's {disfmarker} these are just microphone {disfmarker} this micro close microphone and a distant microphone , he 's doing these different tests on .
Grad F: Oh .
Professor B: Uh , we should do a measurement in here . I g think we never have . I think it 's {disfmarker} I would guess , uh , point seven , point eight seconds f uh , R T
Grad F: Hmm !
Professor B: something like that ? But it 's {disfmarker} you know , it 's this room .
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So .
PhD G: OK . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Uh . But the other thing is , he 's putting in {disfmarker} w I was using the word " reverberation " in two ways . He 's also putting in , uh , a {disfmarker} he 's taking out some reverberation , but he 's putting in something , because he has {pause} averages over multiple windows stretching out to twelve seconds , which are then being subtracted from the speech . And since , you know , what you subtract , sometimes you 'll be {disfmarker} you 'll be subtracting from some larger number and sometimes you won't . And {disfmarker}
PhD G: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So you can end up with some components in it that are affected by things that are seconds away . Uh , and if it 's a low {pause} energy compo portion , you might actually hear some {pause} funny things .
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad E: O o one thing , um , I noticed is that , um , the mean subtraction seems to make the PZM signals louder after they 've been re - synthesized . So I was wondering , is it possible that one reason it helped with the Aurora baseline system is {pause} just as a kind of gain control ? Cuz some of the PZM signals sound pretty quiet if you don't amplify them .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . I don't see why {disfmarker} why your signal is louder after processing , because yo
Grad E: Yeah . I don't know why - y , uh , either .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: I don't think just multiplying the signal by two would have any effect .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Oh , OK .
Professor B: Yeah . I mean , I think if you really have louder signals , what you mean is that you have {pause} better signal - to - noise ratio .
PhD C: Well , well {disfmarker}
Professor B: So if what you 're doing is improving the signal - to - noise ratio , then it would be better .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But just it being bigger if {disfmarker} with the same signal - to - noise ratio {disfmarker}
Grad E: It w i i it wouldn't affect things .
Professor B: No .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad E: OK .
PhD C: Well , the system is {disfmarker} use {pause} the absolute energy , so it 's a little bit dependent on {disfmarker} on the {pause} signal level . But , not so much , I guess .
Professor B: Well , yeah . But it 's trained and tested on the same thing .
PhD C: Mmm .
Professor B: So if the {disfmarker} if the {disfmarker} if you change {vocalsound} in both training and test , the absolute level by a factor of two , it will n have no effect .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
PhD A: Did you add {pause} this data to the training set , for the Aurora ? Or you just tested on this ?
Grad E: Uh {disfmarker} Um . Did I w what ?
PhD A: Well , Morgan was just saying that , uh , as long as you do it in both training and testing , it shouldn't have any effect .
Grad E: Sorry ? Yeah .
PhD A: But I {disfmarker} I was {pause} sort of under the impression that you just tested with this data .
Grad E: I {disfmarker} I b
PhD A: You didn't {pause} train it also .
Grad E: I {disfmarker} Right . I trained on clean TI - digits . I {disfmarker} I did the mean subtraction on clean TI - digits . But I didn't {disfmarker} I 'm not sure if it made the clean ti TI - digits any louder .
Professor B: Oh , I see .
Grad E: I only remember noticing it made the , um , PZM signal louder .
Professor B: OK . Well , I don't understand then . Yeah .
Grad E: Huh . I don't know . If it 's {disfmarker} if it 's {disfmarker} like , if it 's trying to find a {disfmarker} a reverberation filter , it could be that this reverberation filter is making things quieter . And then if you take it out {disfmarker} that taking it out makes things louder . I mean .
Professor B: Uh , no . I mean , {vocalsound} uh , there 's {disfmarker} there 's nothing inherent about removing {disfmarker} if you 're really removing ,
Grad E: Nuh - huh .
Professor B: uh , r uh , then I don't {pause} see how that would make it louder .
Grad E: The mean . OK . Yeah , I see .
Professor B: So it might be just some {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah . OK . So I should maybe listen to that stuff again .
Professor B: Yeah . It might just be some artifact of the processing that {disfmarker} that , uh , if you 're {disfmarker} Uh , yeah . I don't know .
Grad E: Oh . OK .
PhD A: I wonder if there could be something like , uh {disfmarker} for s for the PZM data ,
PhD C: Eh
PhD A: uh , you know , if occasionally , uh , somebody hits the table or something , you could get a spike . Uh . I 'm just wondering if there 's something about the , um {disfmarker} you know , doing the mean normalization where , uh , it {disfmarker} it could cause {pause} you to have better signal - to - noise ratio . Um .
Professor B: Well , you know , there is this . Wait a minute . It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i maybe {disfmarker} i If , um {disfmarker} Subtracting the {disfmarker} the mean log spectrum is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is like dividing by the spectrum . So , depending what you divide by , if your {disfmarker} if s your estimate is off and sometimes you 're {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're getting a small number , you could make it bigger .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's just a {disfmarker} a question of {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it could be that there 's some normalization that 's missing , or something to make it {disfmarker}
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Uh , y you 'd think it shouldn't be larger , but maybe in practice it is . That 's something to think about .
Grad E: Hmm .
Professor B: I don't know .
PhD C: I had a question about the system {disfmarker} the SRI system . So , {vocalsound} you trained it on TI - digits ? But except this , it 's exactly the same system as the one that was tested before and that was trained on {pause} Macrophone . Right ? So on TI - digits it gives you one point two percent error rate and on Macrophone it 's still O point eight . Uh , but is it {pause} exactly the same system ?
Grad E: Uh . I think so .
PhD C: Hmm .
Grad E: If you 're talking about the Macrophone results that Andreas had about , um , a week and a half ago , I think it 's the same system .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . So you use VTL - uh , vocal tract length normalization and , um , like MLLR transformations also ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: and {disfmarker}
Professor B: I 'm sorry , was his point eight percent , er , a {disfmarker} a result on testing on Macrophone or {disfmarker} or training ?
PhD C: all that stuff .
Grad E: That 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: It was {pause} training on Macrophone and testing {disfmarker} yeah , on {disfmarker} on meeting digits .
Professor B: Oh . So that was done already . So we were {disfmarker} Uh , and it 's point eight ? OK .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: OK .
PhD C: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I 've just been text {comment} testing the new {pause} Aurora front - end with {disfmarker} well , Aurora system actually {disfmarker} so front - end and HTK , um , acoustic models on the meeting digits and it 's a little bit better than the previous system . We have {disfmarker} I have two point seven percent error rate . And before with the system that was proposed , it 's what ? It was three point nine . So .
Professor B: Oh , that 's a lot better .
PhD C: We are getting better .
Professor B: So , what {disfmarker} w ?
PhD C: And {disfmarker}
PhD G: With the {disfmarker} with the HTK back - end ? What we have for Aurora ?
PhD C: Yeah . Two point seven .
PhD G: I know in the meeting , like {disfmarker}
PhD C: On the meeting we have two point seven .
PhD G: Right . Oh .
Grad F: That 's with the new IIR filters ?
PhD C: Uh . Yeah , yeah . So , yeah ,
Grad F: OK .
PhD C: we have {pause} the new LDA filters , and {disfmarker} I think , maybe {disfmarker} I didn't look , but one thing that makes a difference is this DC offset compensation . Uh , eh {disfmarker} Do y did you have a look at {disfmarker} at the meet uh , meeting digits , if they have a DC component , or {disfmarker} ?
Grad E: I {disfmarker} I didn't . No .
PhD C: Oh .
Professor B: Hmm .
PhD G: No . The DC component could be negligible . I mean , if you are {pause} recording it through a mike . I mean , any {disfmarker} all of the mikes have the DC removal {disfmarker} some capacitor sitting right in {pause} that bias it .
Professor B: Yeah . But this {disfmarker} uh , uh , uh , no . Because , uh , there 's a sample and hold in the A - toD. And these period these typically do have a DC offset .
PhD G: Oh , OK .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} and they can be surprisingly large . It depends on the electronics .
PhD G: Oh , so it is the digital {disfmarker} OK . It 's the A - toD that introduces the DC in .
Professor B: Yeah . The microphone isn't gonna pass any DC .
PhD G: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
Professor B: But {disfmarker} but ,
PhD G: OK .
Professor B: typi you know , unless {disfmarker} Actually , there are {pause} instrumentation mikes that {disfmarker} that do pass {disfmarker} go down to DC . But {disfmarker} but ,
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: uh , no , it 's the electronics . And they {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: then there 's amplification afterwards . And you can get , I think it was {disfmarker} I think it was in the {pause} Wall Street Journal data that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I can't remember , one of the DARPA things . There was this big DC - DC offset
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: we didn't {disfmarker} we didn't know about for a while , while we were {pause} messing with it . And we were getting these terrible results . And then we were talking to somebody and they said , " Oh , yeah . Didn't you know ? Everybody knows that . There 's all this DC offset in th " So , yes . You can have DC offset in the data .
PhD G: Oh , OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD G: OK .
PhD A: So was that {disfmarker} was that everything , Dave ?
Grad E: Oh . And I also , um , did some experiments {pause} about normalizing the phase . Um . So I c I came up with a web page that people can take a look at . And , um , the interesting thing that I tried was , um , Adam and Morgan had this idea , um , since my original attempts to , um , take the mean of the phase spectra over time and normalize using that , by subtracting that off , didn't work . Um , so , well , that we thought that might be due to , um , problems with , um , the arithmetic of phases . They {disfmarker} they add in this modulo two pi way and , um , there 's reason to believe that that approach of taking the mean of the phase spectrum wasn't really {pause} mathematically correct . So , {vocalsound} what I did instead is I {vocalsound} took the mean of the FFT spectrum without taking the log or anything , and then I took the phase of that , and I subtracted that phase {pause} off to normalize . But that , um , didn't work either .
Professor B: See , we have a different interpretation of this . He says it doesn't work . I said , I think it works magnificently , but just not for the task we intended . Uh , it gets rid of the speech .
PhD A: What does it leave ?
Grad F: Uh , gets rid of the speech .
Professor B: Uh , it leaves {disfmarker} you know , it leaves the junk . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's tremendous .
Grad F: Oh , wow .
Professor B: You see , all he has to do is go back and reverse what he did before , and he 's really got something .
PhD A: Well , could you take what was left over and then subtract that ?
Professor B: Ex - exactly . Yeah , you got it .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor B: So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a general rule .
PhD G: Oh , it 's {disfmarker}
Professor B: Just listen very carefully to what I say and do the opposite . Including what I just said .
Grad E: And , yeah , that 's everything .
PhD A: All set ? Do you want to go , Stephane ?
PhD C: Um . Yeah . Maybe , concerning these d still , these meeting digits . I 'm more interested in trying to figure out what 's still the difference between the SRI system and the Aurora system . And {disfmarker} Um . Yeah . So , I think I will maybe train , like , gender - dependent models , because {pause} this is also one big difference between {pause} the two systems . Um , the other differences were {pause} the fact that maybe the acoustic models of the SRI are more {disfmarker} SRI system are more complex . But , uh , Chuck , you did some experiments with this and
PhD A: It didn't seem to help in the HTK system .
PhD C: it was hard t to {disfmarker} to have some exper some improvement with this . Um .
Professor B: Well , it sounds like they also have {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he 's saying they have all these , uh , uh , different kinds of adaptation .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: You know , they have channel adaptation . They have speaker adaptation .
PhD C: Yeah . Right .
PhD A: Well , there 's also the normalization .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD A: Like they do , um {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how they would do it when they 're working with the digits ,
PhD C: The vocal tr
PhD A: but , like , in the Switchboard data , there 's , um {disfmarker} conversation - side normalization for the {pause} non - C - zero components ,
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah . This is another difference . Their normalization works like on {disfmarker} on the utterance levels .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: But we have to do it {disfmarker} We have a system that does it on - line .
PhD A: Right .
PhD C: So , it might be {disfmarker} it might be better with {disfmarker} it might be worse if the {pause} channel is constant ,
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: or {disfmarker} Nnn .
PhD G: And the acoustic models are like - k triphone models or {disfmarker} or is it the whole word ?
PhD C: SRI {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's tr
Grad F: SRI .
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah . I guess it 's triphones .
PhD G: It 's triphone .
Professor B: I think it 's probably more than that .
PhD C: Huh .
Professor B: I mean , so they {disfmarker} they have {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I thin think they use these , uh , uh , genone things . So there 's {disfmarker} there 's these kind of , uh , uh , pooled models and {disfmarker} and they can go out to all sorts of dependencies .
PhD G: Oh . It 's like the tied state .
Professor B: So .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: They have tied states and I think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't real I 'm talk I 'm just guessing here . But I think {disfmarker} I think they {disfmarker} they don't just have triphones .
PhD G: OK .
Professor B: I think they have a range of {disfmarker} of , uh , dependencies .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Hmm .
PhD C: And {disfmarker} Yeah . Well . Um . Well , the first thing I {disfmarker} that I want to do is just maybe these gender things . Uh . And maybe see with {pause} Andreas if {disfmarker} Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know {pause} how much it helps , what 's the model .
PhD A: So {disfmarker} so the n stuff on the numbers you got , the two point seven , is that using the same training data that the SRI system used and got one point two ?
PhD C: That 's right . So it 's the clean {pause} TI - digits training set .
PhD A: So exact same training data ?
PhD C: Right .
PhD A: OK .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . I guess you used the clean training set .
Grad E: Right .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: For {disfmarker} with the SRI system {disfmarker}
PhD C: Well .
Grad E: You know , the {disfmarker} the Aurora baseline is set up with these , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} this version of the clean training set that 's been filtered with this G - seven - one - two filter , and , um , to train the SRI system on digits S - Andreas used the original TI - digits , um , under U doctor - speech data TI - digits , which don't have this filter . But I don't think there 's any other difference .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor B: So is that {disfmarker} ? Uh , are {disfmarker} are these results comparable ? So you {disfmarker} you were getting with the , uh , Aurora baseline something like two point four percent {pause} on clean TI - digits , when , uh , training the SRI system with clean TR digits {disfmarker} {comment} TI - digits . Right ? And {disfmarker}
Grad E: Um . Uh - huh .
Professor B: Yeah . And , so , is your two point seven comparable , where you 're , uh , uh , using , uh , the submitted system ?
PhD C: Yeah . I think so .
Professor B: OK .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: So it 's {pause} about the same ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: maybe a little worse .
Grad E: W w it was one {disfmarker} one point two
PhD C: Ye
Grad E: with the SRI system ,
Professor B: I 'm sorry .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad E: I {disfmarker}
PhD C: The complete SRI system is one point two .
Professor B: You {disfmarker} you were HTK .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Right ? OK . That 's right . So {disfmarker}
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: OK , so {pause} the comparable number then , uh {pause} for what you were talking about then , since it was HTK , would be the {pause} um , two point f
PhD C: It was four point something . Right ? The HTK system with , uh , b
Grad E: D d
Professor B: Oh , right , right , right , right .
PhD C: MFCC features {disfmarker}
Grad E: Do you mean the b ? The baseline Aurora - two system , trained on TI - digits , tested on Meeting Recorder near , I think we saw in it today , and it was about six point six percent .
Professor B: Right . Right , right , right .
PhD C: Oh .
Professor B: OK . Alright . So {disfmarker} He 's doing some {pause} different things .
PhD C: So {disfmarker} Yeah . The only difference is the features , right now , between this and {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yes . OK , good . So they are helping .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: That 's good to hear . Yeah .
PhD C: They are helping . Yeah . Um . Yeah . And another thing I {disfmarker} I maybe would like to do is to {pause} just test the SRI system that 's trained on Macrophone {disfmarker} test it on , uh , the noisy TI - digits ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: cuz I 'm still wondering {pause} where this {pause} improvement comes from . When you train on Macrophone , it seems better on meeting digits . But I wonder if it 's just because maybe {pause} Macrophone is acoustically closer to the meeting digits than {disfmarker} than TI - digit is , which is {disfmarker} TI - digits are very {pause} clean recorded digits
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: and {disfmarker}
PhD A: You know , it would also be interesting to see , uh {disfmarker} to do the regular Aurora test ,
PhD C: Uh , f s
PhD A: um , but use the SRI system instead of HTK .
PhD C: That 's {disfmarker} Yeah . That 's what {pause} I wanted , just , uh {disfmarker} Yeah . So , just using the SRI system , test it on {disfmarker} and test it on {pause} Aurora TI - digits . Right .
PhD A: Why not the full Aurora , uh , test ?
PhD C: Um . Yeah . There is this problem of multilinguality yet .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: So we don't {disfmarker}
Professor B: You 'd have to train the SRI system with {disfmarker} with all the different languages .
PhD C: i i
PhD A: Right .
PhD C: We would have to train on {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah . That 's what I mean .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD A: So , like , comple
Professor B: It 'd be a {pause} lot of work . That 's the only thing .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD C: It 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Well , I mean ,
PhD C: Mmm .
PhD A: uh , uh , I guess the work would be into getting the {disfmarker} the files in the right formats , or something . Right ? I mean {disfmarker}
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Because when you train up the Aurora system , you 're , uh {disfmarker} you 're also training on all the data .
PhD C: That 's right .
PhD A: I mean , it 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah . I see . Oh , so , OK . Right . I see what you mean .
Professor B: That 's true , but I think that also when we 've had these meetings week after week , oftentimes people have not done the full arrange of things
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: because {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on whatever it is they 're trying , because it 's a lot of work , even just with the HTK .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a good idea , but it seems like {pause} it makes sense to do some pruning
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: first with a {disfmarker} a test or two that makes sense for you ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: and then {pause} take the likely candidates and go further .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Yeah . But , just testing on TI - digits would already give us some information {pause} about what 's going on . And {disfmarker} mm - hmm . Uh , yeah . OK . Uh , the next thing is this {disfmarker} this VAD problem that , um , um {disfmarker} So , I 'm just talking about the {disfmarker} the curves that I {disfmarker} I sent {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I sent you {disfmarker} so , whi that shows that {vocalsound} when the SNR decrease , {vocalsound} uh , the current {pause} VAD approach doesn't drop much frames {pause} for some particular noises , uh , which might be then noises that are closer to speech , uh , acoustically .
Professor B: I i Just to clarify something for me . I They were supp Supposedly , in the next evaluation , they 're going to be supplying us with boundaries .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So does any of this matter ? I mean , other than our interest in it . Uh {disfmarker}
PhD C: Uh {disfmarker} Well . First of all , the boundaries might be , uh {disfmarker} like we would have t two hundred milliseconds or {disfmarker} before and after speech . Uh . So removing more than that might still make {pause} a difference {pause} in the results .
Professor B: Do we {disfmarker} ? I mean , is there some reason that we think that 's the case ?
PhD C: And {disfmarker} No . Because we don't {disfmarker} didn't looked {pause} that much at that .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: But , {vocalsound} still , I think it 's an interesting problem .
Professor B: Oh , yeah .
PhD C: And {disfmarker} Um . Yeah .
Professor B: But maybe we 'll get some insight on that when {disfmarker} when , uh , the gang gets back from Crete . Because {pause} there 's lots of interesting problems , of course .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And then the thing is if {disfmarker} if they really are going to have some means of giving us {pause} fairly tight , uh , boundaries , then that won't be so much the issue .
PhD C: Yeah , yeah . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Um But {vocalsound} I don't know .
PhD G: Because w we were wondering whether that {pause} VAD is going to be , like , a realistic one or is it going to be some manual segmentation . And then , like , if {disfmarker} if that VAD is going to be a realistic one , then we can actually use their markers to shift the point around , I mean , the way we want
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: to find a {disfmarker} I mean , rather than keeping the twenty frames , we can actually move the marker to a point which we find more {pause} suitable for us .
Professor B: Right .
PhD G: But if that is going to be something like a manual , uh , segmenter , then we can't {pause} use that information anymore ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: because that 's not going to be the one that is used in the final evaluation .
Professor B: Right .
PhD G: So . We don't know what is the type of {pause} {vocalsound} {pause} VAD which they 're going to provide .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah . And actually there 's {disfmarker} Yeah . There 's an {disfmarker} uh , I think it 's still for {disfmarker} even for the evaluation , uh , it might still be interesting to {vocalsound} work on this because {pause} the boundaries apparently that they would provide is just , {vocalsound} um , starting of speech and end of speech {pause} uh , at the utterance level . And {disfmarker} Um .
PhD G: With some {disfmarker} some gap .
PhD C: So {disfmarker}
PhD G: I mean , with some pauses in the center , provided they meet that {disfmarker} whatever the hang - over time which they are talking .
PhD C: Yeah . But when you have like , uh , five or six frames , both {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yeah . Then the they will just fill {disfmarker} fill it up .
PhD C: it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} with {disfmarker}
PhD G: I mean , th {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: So if you could get at some of that , uh {disfmarker}
PhD C: So {disfmarker}
Professor B: although that 'd be hard .
PhD C: Yeah . It might be useful for , like , noise estimation , and a lot of other {pause} things that we want to work on .
Professor B: But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor B: Right . OK .
PhD C: But {disfmarker} Mmm . Yeah . So I did {disfmarker} I just {pause} started to test {pause} putting together two VAD which was {disfmarker} was not much work actually . Um , I im re - implemented a VAD that 's very close to the , {vocalsound} um , energy - based VAD {vocalsound} that , uh , the other Aurora guys use . Um . So , which is just putting a threshold on {pause} the noise energy ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: and , detect detecting the first {pause} group of four frames {pause} that have a energy that 's above this threshold , and , uh , from this point , uh , tagging the frames there as speech . So it removes {vocalsound} the first silent portion {disfmarker} portion of each utterance . And it really removes it , um , still o on the noises where {pause} our MLP VAD doesn't {pause} work a lot .
Professor B: Mmm .
PhD C: Uh ,
Professor B: Cuz I would have thought that having some kind of spectral {pause} information ,
PhD C: and {disfmarker}
Professor B: uh {disfmarker} uh , you know , in the old days people would use energy and zero crossings , for instance {disfmarker} uh , would give you some {pause} better performance . Right ? Cuz you might have low - energy fricatives or {disfmarker} or , uh {pause} stop consonants , or something like that .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Uh .
PhD C: Yeah . So , your point is {disfmarker} will be to u use whatever {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh , that if you d if you use purely energy and don't look at anything spectral , then you don't have a good way of distinguishing between low - energy speech components and {pause} nonspeech . And , um ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: just as a gross generalization , most nonsp many nonspeech noises have a low - pass kind of characteristic , some sort of slope . And {disfmarker} and most , um , low - energy speech components that are unvoiced have a {disfmarker} a high - pass kind of characteristic {disfmarker}
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: an upward slope . So having some kind of a {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: uh , you know , at the beginning of a {disfmarker} of a {disfmarker} of an S sound for instance , just starting in , it might be pretty low - energy ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: but it will tend to have this high - frequency component . Whereas , {vocalsound} a {disfmarker} a lot of rumble , and background noises , and so forth will be predominantly low - frequency . Uh , you know , by itself it 's not enough to tell you , but it plus energy is sort of {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: it plus energy plus timing information is sort of {disfmarker}
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I mean , if you look up in Rabiner and Schafer from like twenty - five years ago or something , that 's sort of {pause} what they were using then .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So it 's {disfmarker} it 's not a {disfmarker}
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Hmm .
PhD C: So , yeah . It {disfmarker} it might be that what I did is {disfmarker} so , removes like {vocalsound} low , um , {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} low - energy , uh , speech frames . Because {pause} the way I do it is I just {disfmarker} I just combine the two decisions {disfmarker} so , the one from the MLP and the one from the energy - based {disfmarker} with the {disfmarker} with the and {pause} operator . So , I only {pause} keep the frames where the two agree {pause} that it 's speech . So if the energy - based dropped {disfmarker} dropped low - energy speech , mmm , they {disfmarker} they are {disfmarker} they are lost . Mmm .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: But s still , the way it 's done right now it {disfmarker} it helps on {disfmarker} on the noises where {disfmarker} it seems to help on the noises where {vocalsound} our VAD was not very {pause} good .
Professor B: Well , I guess {disfmarker} I mean , one could imagine combining them in different ways . But {disfmarker} but , I guess what you 're saying is that the {disfmarker} the MLP - based one has the spectral information . So .
PhD C: Yeah . But {disfmarker} Yeah . But the way it 's combined wi is maybe done {disfmarker} Well , yeah .
Professor B: Well , you can imagine {disfmarker}
PhD C: The way I use a an a " AND " operator is {disfmarker} So , it {disfmarker} I , uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: Is {disfmarker} ?
PhD C: The frames that are dropped by the energy - based system are {disfmarker} are , uh , dropped , even if the , um , MLP decides to keep them .
Professor B: Right . Right . And that might not be optimal ,
PhD C: But , yeah .
Professor B: but {disfmarker}
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: No
Professor B: but {disfmarker} I mean , I guess in principle what you 'd want to do is have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , a probability estimated by each one and {disfmarker} and put them together .
PhD C: Yeah . Mmm . M Yeah .
PhD A: Something that {disfmarker} that I 've used in the past is , um {disfmarker} when just looking at the energy , is to look at the derivative . And you {pause} make your decision when the derivative is increasing for {pause} so many frames . Then you say that 's beginning of speech .
PhD C: Uh - huh .
PhD A: But , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm trying to remember if that requires that you keep some amount of speech in a buffer . I guess it depends on how you do it . But {pause} I mean , that 's {disfmarker} that 's been a useful thing .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Yeah . Well , every everywhere has a delay associated with it . I mean , you still have to k always keep a buffer ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: then only make a decision because {pause} you still need to smooth the {pause} decision further .
PhD A: Right . Right .
PhD G: So that 's always there .
PhD A: Yeah . OK .
PhD C: Well , actually if I don't {disfmarker} maybe don't want to work too much of {disfmarker} on it right now . I just wanted to {disfmarker} to see if it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} what I observed was the re was caused by this {disfmarker} this VAD problem .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: And it seems to be the case . Um . Uh , the second thing is the {disfmarker} this spectral subtraction . Um . Um , which I 've just started yesterday to launch a bunch of , uh , {nonvocalsound} twenty - five experiments , uh , with different , uh , values for the parameters that are used . So , it 's the Makhoul - type spectral subtraction which use {pause} an over - estimation factor . So , we substr I subtract more , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} um , {nonvocalsound} {vocalsound} noise than the noise spectra that {pause} is estimated {pause} on the noise portion of the s uh , the utterances . So I tried several , uh , over - estimation factors . And after subtraction , I also add {pause} a constant noise , and I also try different , uh , {vocalsound} noise , uh , values and we 'll see what happen .
Professor B: Hmm . OK .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . But st still when we look at the , um {disfmarker} Well , it depends on the parameters that you use , but for moderate over - estimation factors and moderate noise level that you add , you st have a lot of musical noise . Um . On the other hand , when you {pause} subtract more and when you add more noise , you get rid of this musical noise but {pause} maybe you distort a lot of speech . So . Well . Mmm . Well , it {disfmarker} until now , it doesn't seem to help . But We 'll see . So the next thing , maybe I {disfmarker} what I will {pause} try to {disfmarker} to do is just {pause} to try to smooth mmm , {vocalsound} the , um {disfmarker} to smooth the d the result of the subtraction , to get rid of the musical noise , using some kind of filter , or {disfmarker}
PhD G: Can smooth the SNR estimate , also .
PhD C: Yeah . Right . Mmm .
PhD G: Your filter is a function of SNR . Hmm ?
PhD C: Yeah . So , to get something that 's {disfmarker} would be closer to {pause} what you tried to do with Wiener filtering .
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD C: And {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . Yeah .
PhD G: Actually , it 's , uh {disfmarker} Uh . I don't know , it 's {disfmarker} go ahead .
PhD C: It {disfmarker}
PhD G: And it 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: Maybe you can {disfmarker}
PhD G: go ahead .
PhD C: I think it 's {disfmarker} That 's it for me .
PhD G: OK . So , uh {disfmarker} u th I 've been playing with this Wiener filter , like . And there are {disfmarker} there were some bugs in the program , so I was p initially trying to clear them up . Because one of the bug was {disfmarker} I was assuming that always the VAD {disfmarker} uh , the initial frames were silence . It always started in the silence state , but it wasn't for some utterances . So the {disfmarker} it wasn't estimating the noise initially , and then it never estimated , because I assumed that it was always silence .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . So this is on SpeechDat - Car Italian ?
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD C: So , in some cases s there are also {disfmarker}
PhD G: SpeechDat - Car Italian . Yeah . There 're a few cases , actually , which I found later , that there are .
PhD C: o Uh - huh .
PhD G: So that was one of the {pause} bugs that was there in estimating the noise . And , uh , so once it was cleared , uh , I ran a few experiments with {pause} different ways of smoothing the estimated clean speech and how t estimated the noise and , eh , smoothing the SNR also . And so the {disfmarker} the trend seems to be like , {vocalsound} uh , smoothing the {pause} current estimate of the clean speech for deriving the SNR , which is like {pause} deriving the Wiener filter , seems to be helping . Then updating it quite fast using a very small time constant . So we 'll have , like , a few results where the {disfmarker} estimating the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} More smoothing is helping . But still it 's like {disfmarker} it 's still comparable to the baseline . I haven't got anything beyond the baseline . But that 's , like , not using any Wiener filter . And , uh , so I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm trying a few more experiments with different time constants for smoothing the noise spectrum , and smoothing the clean speech , and smoothing SNR . So there are three time constants that I have . So , I 'm just playing around . So , one is fixed in the line , like {pause} Smoothing the clean speech is {disfmarker} is helping , so I 'm not going to change it that much . But , the way I 'm estimating the noise and the way I 'm estimating the SNR , I 'm just trying {disfmarker} trying a little bit . So , that h And the other thing is , like , putting a floor on the , uh , SNR , because that {disfmarker} if some {disfmarker} In some cases the clean speech is , like {disfmarker} when it 's estimated , it goes to very low values , so the SNR is , like , very low . And so that actually creates a lot of variance in the low - energy region of the speech . So , I 'm thinking of , like , putting a floor also for the SNR so that it doesn't {pause} vary a lot in the low - energy regions . And , uh . So . The results are , like {disfmarker} So far I 've been testing only with the {pause} baseline , which is {disfmarker} which doesn't have any LDA filtering and on - line normalization . I just want to separate the {disfmarker} the contributions out . So it 's just VAD , plus the Wiener filter , plus the baseline system , which is , uh , just the spectral {disfmarker} I mean , the mel sp mel , uh , frequency coefficients . Um . And the other thing that I tried was {disfmarker} but I just {vocalsound} took of those , uh , {pause} {vocalsound} Carlos filters , which Hynek had , to see whether it really h helps or not . I mean , it was just a {disfmarker} a run to see whether it really degrades or it helps . And it 's {disfmarker} it seems to be like it 's not {vocalsound} hurting a lot by just blindly picking up one filter which is nothing but a {pause} four hertz {disfmarker} a band - pass m m filter on the cubic root of the power spectrum . So , that was the filter that Hy - uh , Carlos had . And so {disfmarker} Yeah . Just {disfmarker} just to see whether it really {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} is it worth trying or not . So , it doesn't seems to be degrading a lot on that . So there must be something that I can {disfmarker} that can be done with that type of noise compensation also , which {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess I would ask Carlos about that . I mean , how {disfmarker} how he derived those filters and {disfmarker} and where d if he has any filters which are derived on OGI stories , added with some type of noise which {disfmarker} what we are using currently , or something like that . So maybe I 'll {disfmarker}
Professor B: This is cubic root of power spectra ?
PhD G: Yeah . Cubic root of power spectrum .
Professor B: So , if you have this band - pass filter , you probably get n you get negative values . Right ?
PhD G: Yeah . And I 'm , like , floating it to z zeros right now .
Professor B: OK .
PhD G: So it has , like {disfmarker} the spectrogram has , like {disfmarker} Uh , it actually , uh , enhances the onset and offset of {disfmarker} I mean , the {disfmarker} the begin and the end of the speech . So it 's {disfmarker} there seems to be , like , deep valleys in the begin and the end of , like , high - energy regions ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: because the filter has , like , a sort of Mexican - hat type structure .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: So , those are the regions where there are , like {disfmarker} when I look at the spectrogram , there are those deep valleys on the begin and the end of the speech . But the rest of it seems to be , like , pretty nice .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: So . That 's {pause} something I observe using that filter . And {disfmarker} Yeah . There are a few {disfmarker} very {disfmarker} not a lot of {disfmarker} because the filter doesn't have a {disfmarker} really a deep negative portion , so that it 's not really creating a lot of negative values in the cubic root . So , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll s may continue with that for some w I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll {disfmarker} Maybe I 'll ask Carlos a little more about how to play with those filters , and {disfmarker} but while {pause} making this Wiener filter better . So . Yeah . That {disfmarker} that 's it , Morgan .
Professor B: Uh , last week you were also talking about building up the subspace {pause} stuff ?
PhD G: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would actually m m didn't get enough time to work on the subspace last week . It was mostly about {pause} finding those bugs and
Professor B: OK .
PhD G: th you know , things , and I didn't work much on that .
PhD A: How about you , Carmen ?
PhD D: Well , I am still working with , eh , VTS . And , one of the things that last week , eh , say here is that maybe the problem was with the diff because the signal have different level of energy .
Professor B: Hmm ?
PhD D: And , maybe , talking with Stephane and with Sunil , we decide that maybe it was interesting to {disfmarker} to apply on - line normalization before applying VTS . But then {vocalsound} we decided that that 's {disfmarker} it doesn't work absolutely , because we modified also the noise . And {disfmarker} Well , thinking about that , we {disfmarker} we then {disfmarker} we decide that maybe is a good idea . We don't know . I don't hav I don't {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} I didn't {pause} do the experiment yet {disfmarker} to apply VTS in cepstral domain .
Professor B: The other thing {pause} is {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so , in {disfmarker} i i and {disfmarker} Not {disfmarker} and C - zero would be a different {disfmarker} So you could do a different normalization for C - zero than for other things anyway . I mean , the other thing I was gonna suggest is that you could have {pause} two kinds of normalization with {disfmarker} with , uh , different time constants . So , uh , you could do some normalization {vocalsound} s uh , before the VTS , and then do some other normalization after . I don't know . But {disfmarker} but C - zero certainly acts differently than the others do ,
PhD D: Uh .
Professor B: so that 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Well , we s decide to m to {disfmarker} to obtain the new expression if we work in the cepstral domain . And {disfmarker} Well . I am working in that now ,
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD D: but {vocalsound} I 'm not sure if that will be usefu useful . I don't know . It 's k it 's k It 's quite a lot {disfmarker} It 's a lot of work .
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD D: Well , it 's not too much , but this {disfmarker} it 's work .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: And I want to know if {disfmarker} if we have some {pause} feeling that {pause} the result {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would like to know if {disfmarker} I don't have any feeling if this will work better than apply VTS aft in cepstral domain will work better than apply in m mel {disfmarker} in filter bank domain . I r I 'm not sure . I don't {disfmarker} I don't know absolutely nothing .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah . Well , you 're {disfmarker} I think you 're the first one here to work with VTS , so , uh , maybe we could call someone else up who has , ask them their opinion . Uh ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I don't {disfmarker} I don't have a good feeling for it . Um .
PhD G: Pratibha .
PhD C: Actually , the VTS that you tested before was in the log domain and so {pause} the codebook is e e kind of dependent on the {pause} level of the speech signal .
PhD D: Yeah ?
PhD C: And {disfmarker} So I expect it {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} if you have something that 's independent of this , I expect it to {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} to , uh , be a better model of speech .
PhD D: To have better {disfmarker}
PhD C: And . Well .
Professor B: You {disfmarker} you wouldn't even need to switch to cepstra . Right ? I mean , you can just sort of normalize the {disfmarker}
PhD C: No . We could normali norm I mean , remove the median .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah . And then you have {pause} one number which is very dependent on the level cuz it is the level ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and the other which isn't .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Yeah . But here also we would have to be careful about removing the mean {pause} of speech and not of noise .
PhD D: Ye
PhD C: Because it 's like {pause} first doing general normalization
PhD D: Yea
PhD C: and then noise removal , which is {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah . We {disfmarker} I was thinking to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to estimate the noise {pause} with the first frames and then apply the VAD ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: before the on - line normalization .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: We {disfmarker} we see {disfmarker} Well , I am thinking {vocalsound} about that and working about that ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: but I don't have result this week .
Professor B: Sure . I mean , one of the things we 've talked about {disfmarker} maybe it might be star time to start thinking about pretty soon , is as we look at the pros and cons of these different methods , how do they fit in with one another ? Because {pause} we 've talked about potentially doing some combination of a couple of them . Maybe {disfmarker} maybe pretty soon we 'll have some sense of what their {pause} characteristics are ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: so we can see what should be combined .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Is that it ? OK ?
Professor B: OK . Why don't we read some digits ?
PhD A: Yep . Want to go ahead , Morgan ?
Professor B: Sure .
PhD A: Transcript L dash two one five .
Professor B: O K .
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doc_58
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Project Manager: So is {disfmarker} Why not save that .
Marketing: No , you'll ha have to open it up from elsewhere .
Project Manager: {gap} {disfmarker} Do you want to replace existing file , no . {vocalsound} I actually tried to transfer it to My Documents , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , you have to you have to close that window . 'Cause that's the save one isn't it , so {disfmarker} And then find it .
Project Manager: {gap} spreadsheet .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , but I've ta uh
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: right , I'll just re-do it . That's the easiest way . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Right .
User Interface: Well we've made our prototype anyway . We can have a good look at that . {vocalsound}
Marketing: You pass it round to have a look .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm . Y no , it's a slightly curved around the sides . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm very nice .
User Interface: Um , it's almost curved like up to the main display as well . And the little line at the bottom indicates the bit {disfmarker} the panel that you pull down .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And the extra function buttons are below that panel on the little line .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And we've got the stick on the button with the company logo on .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: We also have a apple slash cherry design at the top .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So it is , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Cherry would be alright actually .
User Interface: Yeah ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: it's a bit more fun , isn't it ? And it's kinda not really at a kind of {disfmarker} you think apple , you think computers , like Apple Mac .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah , we might get a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Copyright , yeah . What's this this one ?
User Interface: Yeah , and cherries are fun , summery .
Marketing: What's that one there ?
User Interface: Ah , that's the mute .
Industrial Designer: For the M_ . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh , okay . Right .
User Interface: {gap} {vocalsound} It {disfmarker} it'd probably have to be labelled mute .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: They're thinking {disfmarker}
User Interface: But um , we didn't have anything small enough to write .
Marketing: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: For the first time , well it was hard to get the h um the actual labelling on the individual buttons .
Marketing: Okay . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . Uh , we just chose simple shapes for all them .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um , the important ones are the volume ones . So we made them a bit bigger . The mute could possibly be a bit smaller .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Hum , you separate off in colour the volume related buttons from the channel related buttons , so you've got the volume in orange on design there ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and the the channel is in blue .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: R right . Um ,
User Interface: Yeah , and we chose a V_ plus and V_ minus .
Project Manager: all these things have cost implications . And so when I done my thing on cost {vocalsound} a {disfmarker} I had assumed that the only uh button that would be a different colour would be the uh the red apple button . So {disfmarker} However , I've now {gap} . {vocalsound} But um , {vocalsound} yeah so uh but there would be a cost implication on that ,
Marketing: I'll see if I can find them .
Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker} as I suppose that {vocalsound} so whether {vocalsound} wanted to put in all these colours , would be uh open to debate , I suppose .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , sis
User Interface: Well the colours wouldn't {disfmarker} like that's {disfmarker} they wouldn't be too important ,
Marketing: Have {disfmarker}
User Interface: but we didn't have any white Play-Doh . {vocalsound} So that's where the colour buttons came from . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} An important consideration .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Right , okay so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} And the second one underneath would be the idea for the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes , we'll have the slide-away .
Project Manager: Right , okay . So we've got um detail design meeting .
Industrial Designer: Bottom .
Project Manager: Right . So {disfmarker} So , we've got {vocalsound} prototype presentation , which we've just done , evaluation criteria , um and finance , so I guess w we have to evaluate if that meets the various uh aspects that we're looking for uh from um our previous meeting .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So other than the fact that it doesn't have the second layer , but um obviously obviously it would .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But other than that , we got the red apple . We got the buttons and the only thing that has really changed is the is the colouration of the buttons ,
Industrial Designer: Yes , yes .
Project Manager: and {vocalsound} the bit after the evaluation criteria is uh is the finance . {vocalsound} And the {vocalsound} and the cost implication .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: The only snag about this is that uh {vocalsound} the cost is probably kind of important . So um , and then the production evaluation , as to how easy that would be to uh to manufacture .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um , and whether it would uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So if you had to do a presentation or {disfmarker} will you just work it on the prototype ?
Industrial Designer: This this is a {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh , that's it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yes , this is our presentation of the prototype .
Marketing: That's the pr
Project Manager: Right , so uh as far as the the finance of it would be concern would be to make sure that the cost {disfmarker} aye the production cost 'cause you may remember that was one of the first uh considerations was to be in d under um uh twelve fifty or two and a half {disfmarker} uh twelve and a half Euros .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So , there's no redesign . So that should uh {disfmarker} Right , so , seems to me that the thing that I have to do is is quickly find that uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Could we get this on the board just so we can see {disfmarker} or do you mean do you have the figures there ?
Marketing: {gap} we should {gap} plug it in .
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: Do you wanna plu do you wanna plug it in into the the back of that one .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay , Alice . So , sh
Marketing: We could do it as we d go along , the production costs , looking at the prototype .
Project Manager: Right . {gap} .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay this should be then .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay , so , by the fact that we've got uh the simple chip and the uh kinetic energy source , we've got a single curved case . We've got a rubber uh case materials supplements . So , we had decided that we're having rubber buttons and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Have a push button interface .
Project Manager: Okay . W the button supplements .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well , originally , I thought there would just be uh one in there because it was the one red apple . But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So the so the real w the real question then would come in . Do you make all the buttons {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well do we'll do it on the prototype ,
Project Manager: O
Marketing: so do two , see how much it is .
Project Manager: Well , so we've got one special button form , which was the apple . Everything else is gonna be a standard .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: We've got special material , rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera and that ,
Industrial Designer: And then we'd have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: so , I was {disfmarker} {vocalsound} originally , I was thinking {gap} rubber wasn't special ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: but according to this , maybe it is .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} And the r I mean effectively we've got sixteen buttons that we're gonna have on there .
Marketing: Yeah . I think you just do one , don't you , for the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: W {vocalsound} I don't know {vocalsound} is {vocalsound} is {vocalsound} is the sort of answer , is that meant to be all sixteen buttons , and therefore {disfmarker} I mean , what's the op The option was maybe not to have rubber buttons , but just to have the one that was soft and spongy , and therefore {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think I think it's just it's just a one . Else {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Whereas it would be {disfmarker} the special colour would be for the {disfmarker} So you would only have the one special button that was rubber , whereas the rest would be hard plastic . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I thi I think I think the button supplement i is just a supplement for all the buttons {gap} made in a different material , rather than per button .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: I don't know though .
Project Manager: I would {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Every design change is uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} sound] I dunno ,
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , um , if we just had all the buttons as standard , except for the one red apple , then that would take care of that , I guess . We'd have one special colour and one special button form .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And when I plugged that in last time {disfmarker} {gap} remember it has to be under twelve and a half . As far as I know , that um {vocalsound} that took care of the uh of the various supplements .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And if {disfmarker} What happened ?
Marketing: You've just gone off the window into another one . It's on the bottom row .
User Interface: Maybe if you just minimise that one in the top right-hand corner of the little box .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Now , right . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , so , but the point would be that if we uh if we just did special {disfmarker} Sorry , you were saying that it would be that one , that you would put in one there .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So that's nine point one there so we've got some {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So it {disfmarker} Well , is it s is {disfmarker} no , it's nine point seven I've got .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Just give us a bit of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So , that would {vocalsound} that would work out fine if uh uh as assuming your correction are are {vocalsound} {disfmarker} assuming that that one change covers all the buttons , then that would be fine .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And there's nothing else as far as I can see that we we had uh planned to put on {gap} .
User Interface: S
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I {gap} switching around those th um on the electronics we got the sample sensor . At the moment we've just got the simple chip , which costs one .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Um , I guess the sample sens sample speaker would be the voice recognition thing , which puts up to four ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We should be slightly over our budget but if we gather something else down to slightly lower standard , and maybe go with the one the special form buttons , then we could have the speech {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well , hold on . Um , if we Okay , that gives us twelve point seven
Industrial Designer: So uh maybe if we got rid of like the maybe one of the special colours , kept them all the same colour , then we could have the voice recognition
Project Manager: But remember that the idea was to keep it the colour of the {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: without {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh , I see , so just take out the special colour for the apple and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Um , {gap} . D wouldn't you have to keep the simple chip there as well ? You know how you turn that one to a zero , wouldn't the chip and the sample speaker be separate things ,
Marketing: Yeah , we have to have it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh possibly , yeah , yeah maybe .
User Interface: so you need both of them ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Maybe um we'd be giving up on the kinetic . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And go for battery instead .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: That would give you one less .
Industrial Designer: We should {disfmarker} Yeah , that would save us one , though we'd still be slightly ov
Project Manager: But you reckon that i I mean the thing is that you wanted to a appeal to people and not have to replace batteries .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah . Well , since it's the {disfmarker} through the whole technology type thing , um , you were saying in the market research that people like kind of interesting gadgets in them . Um , whether they would figure the {vocalsound} the s uh sample senor and the sample speaker , voice recognition be sort of a worthwhile thing to have .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And then still have the batteries ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: or whatever they would prefer not uh {disfmarker} You know what I mean ? The the problem was the battery's running out and losing the um losing the remote .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So you gotta decide which of those is more important to them .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But which do you think {disfmarker} or which do we think is the more important of the options ? In a sense , at the moment , we've got a total which we need to reduce down by one point two .
User Interface: I think the voice recognition .
Project Manager: At least . Remember that was a minimum requirement . The other option if we're planning on just going for something cheap and cheerful , would be to um make it {gap} originally , we're gonna make it a simple product .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Shall we shall we evaluate the prototype as we've got it now first , and then sort of make decisions about what needs to be changed after ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Makes sense .
Industrial Designer: Okay
Marketing: Okay . Right um , I have a little thing . So , we've all got a note of {disfmarker} it's thirteen point seven , isn't it , with everything we want on .
Project Manager: {gap} . Sorry , do you want that back up ?
Marketing: Yeah , I just had a presentation to do . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: But I do think uh the v uh voice recognition thing would be more impressive than the fact that it's got no battery .
Project Manager: Okay , but remember the main {disfmarker} the only reason we were planning on having the voice recognition was so that they could find the remote if it got lost .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm . {vocalsound} Right okay um , This is about the evaluation criteria that we use for the the prototype we've got here .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And so the method is that the design team makes a prototype , and we evaluate the prototype against some criteria that we've formulated . And those ones are gonna be in response to sort of market research , and also finance , I guess . {vocalsound} And do that on a scale from say true being one and false being seven , so if it's neither true nor false , then that's four . So , I got a set of criteria just based on the marketing that we need to add in a financial one as well , at the end . Um so , We have to say whether it's true or false that the product looks and feels fancy . Um {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} whether the product demonstrates technical innovation . Whether it's easy to use . Whether it's incorporating sort of the fashion element to attract the buyer . And whether it's a sort of recognisable Real Reaction product . And I have to go up onto the whiteboard and do this apparently ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: so {vocalsound} I'll go over here . {vocalsound} Right . So the first one is um , does the product look and feel fancy . So if we do a sort of a one {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay , well we have a single curve , which was {gap} maybe like the feel of the product's quite good .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Um , then we have the rubber kinda spongy feel , which was in at the time .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um , {vocalsound} sorry that'd be considered fancy .
User Interface: Yeah , I'd maybe give it a a two .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Of {disfmarker} but I think {disfmarker} What {disfmarker} Is one false , or is t one true ?
User Interface: One's true .
Marketing: I forgot . One's true , and okay . Seven's fal
User Interface: And a four is neutral .
Marketing: Four is neutral , okay . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So maybe {gap} maybe a two .
User Interface: Yeah , 'cause we haven't got the double curve , so we can't like say it's completely true .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Go for one . {vocalsound} Yep .
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: {vocalsound} But it's pretty close . We've got almost everything we can .
Marketing: Okay . Right .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: I gonna put underneath so I've got some more space . So , false is seven , true is one , and {disfmarker} So uh say about a two for fancy ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: you think ?
Project Manager: Yeah , why not not ,
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: m m maybe nearer three .
Marketing: Okay , well d you do an average at the end , I don't know . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Two three . Well , it's just that uh saying something {disfmarker} {vocalsound} remember that when you look down , we've got solar power , we've got uh various other things you could have , and we're not going for these options .
Marketing: Uh-huh . This this is just this is just for like the look . Does it sort of look fancy rather than functional . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , I suppose that might be in the technical innovation bit .
Marketing: Yeah , so that {disfmarker} so sh should we go for a a two on that ?
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: 'Kay . And I mean , how much does the product demonstrate technical innovation do you reckon ?
Industrial Designer: Um , {gap} deciding between the kinetic power or um the speech recognition , and if we had either of those for our budget , they both show a reasonable amount of speech recognition .
Marketing: D yeah . Okay . So , what about the pr The prototype as it is ,
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: we've got we've got the speech recognition on it , haven't we .
Industrial Designer: But not the kinetic .
Marketing: But not the kinetic .
Industrial Designer: Like the power .
Project Manager: No . 'Cause you can't afford that {disfmarker} w we took that out too .
Industrial Designer: No , we c ca yeah , we can't afford both .
Marketing: Alright , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Didn't you ? Or {disfmarker}
Marketing: So it doesn't {disfmarker} It's pretty {disfmarker} The prototype as it is isn't sort of um fulfilling the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No may is {disfmarker} maybe about neutral
User Interface: Maybe a three .
Industrial Designer: plus it it it's got something , but it hasn't got {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . Yeah .
Project Manager: Well , wait a minute . In thirteen point seven we do have kinetic .
User Interface: I would give it more than a four .
Project Manager: The problem is we have to reduce down from there to get it down to twelve point five .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: And one way of doing that would be to take out the kinetic .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: So , it's very much dependant on what you do with your options . And if you're definitely going for the sample sensor and sample speaker , then {disfmarker} because that {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: Right , okay .
Project Manager: the other functions we've got in are are more at the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} The special material , the rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera , if you go for that , th that's at the high end 'cause that's point six , whereas down at uh just special colours uh is point two . Now you're trying to lose one point two , so it seems to me that if you're going for the sample sensors {disfmarker} speaker , you're basically then having to go for the cheaper options on everything else .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: And and the simple way to do it would be to have a battery , to have your uh sample sensor speaker ,
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and then you're looking to uh take out uh point two ,
Marketing: S I'm just gonna check my email . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: which would be {disfmarker} come from the button supplements category .
Marketing: I'm just gonna check exactly what it said in the email for um the product .
User Interface: How much of a difference would it make if we made the case in plastic ? Because we did say that we don't wanna follow the fashion too much . If the buttons are rubber that might be spongy enough .
Project Manager: Um , interface type um ,
User Interface: And then it stand the test of time better .
Project Manager: well plastic rather than rubber . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . But I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That that that would make the significant difference . You could either {vocalsound} you could have it {disfmarker} If you have a in plastic rather than rubber , then that would uh enable you to get {disfmarker} you could keep kinetic then , you could keep your sample sensor , and you'd be looking to take out point two . So you could uh fiddle that down your special form at the bottom , or your special colour at the bottom .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And that would enable you to to do it .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So it says if we make a slightly more fancy , then we lose points innovation , and if we make it more innovative innovative , then we lose points on it being fancy , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Ye
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} , I just read the email again and it sort of says it's evaluate the design sort of as it is , I think , so I think we need to think about finance after we've sort of evaluated that design . I don't know whether we're doing it in the wrong order or something or .
Project Manager: Well , okay , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , I suppose it's rubber as it is , isn't it .
Project Manager: It's rubber as it is , yes .
Marketing: So , I mean does this need to go up a bit or something , 'cause we've got both the both the um the speech {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We got {disfmarker} we've we've got thirteen point seven
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: and we've got it in at the moment and if {disfmarker} and basically , we're going to reduce down from that .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: But the current one , you'd say would be fancy , would be too {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Um , for for innovation , so we've got the speech the speech thing , and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm . I would've said about a two as well .
Marketing: Do you reckon a two ?
User Interface: Yeah , two or three . I'd be happy with a two .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . Two .
Project Manager: Oh .
Marketing: And the next one is {disfmarker} I'll have to get it back up now . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The next on Well , I can just sing about . Easy to use . I would've said yes . I would go for a one on that at this point in time .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah ,
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: I would say so as well .
Project Manager: Um , incorporates elements of fashion to attract buyer . Well , yeah it certainly has some .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah , it's got the cherry and the sponginess .
Industrial Designer: It does , yeah .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: Say about a three maybe ?
Project Manager: I don't know .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , m um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Maybe two ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it was just doing it quite well .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Um , I think we're gonna have to lose some of these , but the moment , as it stands , it's um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , I woulda said two would seem reasonable .
Marketing: It's a two .
Project Manager: The product is a recognisable real {disfmarker} r uh {disfmarker} reaction product ?
Marketing: Yeah , this is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh {gap} the sensor using all of its all of its products , all of its buttons ,
Marketing: This {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and it's got a fairly big label on the bottom saying where it comes from .
User Interface: Yeah , that's a bit rough at the minute . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} So this is about sort of the corporate image of like new sort of sleek technology and all that sort of thing , as well as having the logo on and all that .
Project Manager: Oh .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: So {gap} sort of {disfmarker} Is it sort of a recognisable product .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Does it fit in with our other other products , which uh are sort of coffee makers and spacecraft . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} S
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh , well it's got the same um speech feature as the coffee machine .
Marketing: What do y
Industrial Designer: Also it's kind of {gap} spongy rubberiness is maybe bit more kinda comfortable than {disfmarker} kinda sleek and new age .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um , it depends which way you look at it .
Marketing: Uh-huh .
Project Manager: Okay . So we're going for a two ,
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Maybe a kind of three ? Uh d
Project Manager: {gap} three ?
User Interface: Yeah , two or three .
Marketing: Two or three ?
User Interface: Well , the logo would be more um recognisable on the actual thing . It's just that the pen wouldn't really write on that paper .
Project Manager: Sure .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But um , I think the logo would definitely be recognisable .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: And it does have attributes that other products do . Two ? Aye . Go for it .
Project Manager: Right , okay .
Marketing: Two or three . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Two .
Marketing: {vocalsound} How {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right , come on . That's that decided .
Marketing: Two . Okay .
Project Manager: Right . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: So we're now on to changing it to get it to fit in with the budget requirements , and then {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: What does {disfmarker} what do all them numbers mean then ? Do we add them up and rate {gap} or anything ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah we s yeah , I think we sort of add them up so sort of at an average is gonna be {disfmarker} I'm just gonna do this in my head .
Project Manager: About a two .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Two .
Marketing: One point eight isn't it or something . {vocalsound} I think , anyway . So yeah , pretty close to a two .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , so it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: So {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I mean it's pretty good at the moment , but it's gonna get worse , isn't it .
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: But we've gotta try and make sure it doesn't get too bad .
Project Manager: Two b two b two {gap} , yeah .
Industrial Designer: So should we get {disfmarker} So are {gap} definite {disfmarker} Was it {disfmarker} thirteen point seven was the definite price rule if {gap} has .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so we need to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well , you can lose one point two and still meet the requirements .
Marketing: Do you wanna plug it into yours so we can get up the the finances {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , well I put it back on .
Industrial Designer: So I guess this {disfmarker} Is this the last stage once we sort out the finances part of it ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I'm not sure .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} we'll probably have to re-rate it .
Project Manager: Yes , I would've thought so .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah we'll make the adjustments
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and then see how are rates are going .
Project Manager: Okay , so what was it , control uh F_ eight , wasn't it ?
User Interface: Ah it's on .
Marketing: {gap} it's come on already .
Project Manager: Oh . Oh . How kind . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right , okay . So , you can see there that the {disfmarker} If you want to keep kinetic , right , you've got a choice there of going down to battery , which would save you one . You've got the sample sensor and and sample speaker , which is your big item .
Industrial Designer: Oh actually we just have a plastic case , then we lose two points ,
Project Manager: That's right .
Industrial Designer: which gets us um {disfmarker} In {disfmarker} right within the budget range .
Project Manager: Which gets you {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah , I think that'd be fine . Because that was just a trend , and we do have rubber buttons anyway .
Industrial Designer: So that's eleven point seven ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and then we could make sure we definitely had all the button supplements .
Project Manager: Alright .
Marketing: Different different colours , yeah . Yeah , I was I was thinking that because maybe maybe the sort of rubber case is a bit less in sort of the corporate identity than the sort of you know sleeker plastic case .
Industrial Designer: Possibly , yeah . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And that would allow us to have all the technical innovations . So we'd lose a little bit on the {disfmarker} maybe kind of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So we're going for plastic , yes ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Lose a little bit on the fashion , yeah , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah , and that would now be {disfmarker}
Marketing: And then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's that's within the budget . Um {disfmarker} Do we actually have {disfmarker} Do we just have one special {disfmarker} uh {gap} special forms down here ?
Project Manager: Well , uh w uh there was debate as to how you would count them . You got special colour .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well originally I was assuming we had the red apple , and therefore , that was the special colour .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And we we've we've got {disfmarker} we've got enough for another
User Interface: Yeah , I think we should just imagine white buttons .
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} we've got nought point eight left ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so we've got enough for another {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well , we've got special form . Now that would be one button , and the question was was that all buttons or is that just one button . 'Cause our plan really was to have one button only with a special {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So so no matter how you look at that , that would be the same .
Industrial Designer: But the {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but but the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The other thing would then be special material , rubber , wood , titanium .
Industrial Designer: I think maybe the special colour , we've got three now just because {gap} the volume buttons are different ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I guess we'd have the ones which are blue at the moment would would just be the standard colour .
Project Manager: Alright . So , special colour , you want three in there .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , which I think we should {disfmarker} Yeah , they'll still be fine for the for the price .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Well I thin I think you you you just need two for the special colour 'cause it's just two supplements , you know . One original colour and then sort of two supplements , I think maybe .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That makes sense .
Industrial Designer: Okay , uh that's probably it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay . So we only ne we only need two for that .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: 'Cause I mean these these are moulded . The one colour's gonna be moulded out of a piece of plas uh of rubber , isn't it .
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah , I would agree with that , I think . And we've got special form {vocalsound} is the one apple .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: The rest are all standard , although you could argue that should maybe be {disfmarker} You were making these buttons down the bottom , I was presuming , bigger than the other ones , or were you ? Was that the idea ?
Industrial Designer: Ne uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , the volume ones should stand out a bit .
Industrial Designer: Maybe that'll be a second supplement . Then there's a spe a second special form .
Marketing: Yeah , that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh-huh . I would have thought that's probably about r {vocalsound} well . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Well you got you got twelve .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay , so tha
Industrial Designer: So I think that should still be okay . Yeah , that's twelve point three ,
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: so we're still within budget on that . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yep , that makes sense .
Industrial Designer: So {gap} decide we've lost a little bit on the fashion and lost a bit on the fancy kinda side of it ,
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: but generally speaking , we've kept the other attributes to the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I woulda said so . Yeah . So you'd maybe put fash fan uh fashion at three rather than two .
Industrial Designer: That's without {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: So shall we do a {disfmarker} Well , um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And specially it definitely could fits the the real product {disfmarker} What was the {disfmarker} what's the company name ?
Project Manager: Real Reaction produ
User Interface: Real Reactions ?
Industrial Designer: R yeah . Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: I'm not quite sure , what does that mean ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I mean it still seems definitely fit that p so that's like if that's the new age kind of um inno innovative c type company , then um having the kinetic feature and the voice recognition is p quite high up on {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , so {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yep {vocalsound} I would s
Marketing: So it's w if we've if we've put in for another special form on a button , then maybe they could be {vocalsound} a different shape . Like we got a cherry one . Maybe other ones could be something else shaped . {vocalsound} I don't know . That would be poss seeing as seeing as it's cheaper to make them a different {disfmarker} {vocalsound} seeing as we've got , you know , we've made it a a special form , so
Project Manager: You mean of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {disfmarker} And that would sort of maybe keep us close on the sort of the fashion type one . And it would sort of , you know , keep it quite fancy as well ,
Project Manager: Well you could argue you might do it once a year , you would change ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: I don't know .
Project Manager: because at the moment you're making a red apple . So next year you could make {disfmarker} next year's model the same , but have it as a a yeah whate whatever , a lemon .
Industrial Designer: Yeah so it's a {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well you could {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Whatever fruit was in fashion next year . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , l a lemon lemon or something .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , I mean the volume buttons could be lemons or something , maybe . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And that
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: amount {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . So , we've {disfmarker} what have we what have we rid of . We got rid of the plastic .
Project Manager: Yeah , we've {disfmarker} the main thing we've changed really is the casing isn't it ?
Marketing: Is it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That {disfmarker} yeah , that was uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: The rubber .
Industrial Designer: that was just about all .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think we've saved quite a bit because we've just got the push-button interface , which is by far the cheapest .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} So maybe in a sense not having that , maybe we've lost some {disfmarker} maybe lost something on the innovation side ?
Marketing: But uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I dunno . And {gap} that is like the most standard type of button .
Marketing: So I mean , we've got {disfmarker} we got rid of the rubber case , but we've now s we now sort of got an extra form , and an extra colour for the buttons . So maybe in terms of sort of fanciness and fashionability , we're pretty much the same , maybe .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So , I mean we could maybe put two again on them .
Industrial Designer: And everything else has stayed pretty much the same , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well , ease has certainly stayed .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , plus if anything that is special forms makes it slightly easier to to use .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . And what about the sort of innovation ?
Industrial Designer: Um , well we've still got the kinetic energy . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Do you think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: And the speech feature .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , the speech feature .
Marketing: {vocalsound} And then , the corporate identity .
Industrial Designer: I think we've cut just about the same . We've maybe lost {disfmarker} Hasn't it {disfmarker} It's hard to tell how the rubber the rubber casing would really affect {disfmarker}
Project Manager: How it would play out , yeah . Oh .
Marketing: Yeah . Whether whether that's considered to be sort of part of the corporate identity , I don't know . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean , it's maybe not . I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But I think more the the features of the actual control will be more important than maybe than the the actual aesthetics , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But either way , I think we've made it fairly close to what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . Okay , well I mean {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , I don't see how we could make it any more . Um , apart from maybe doing the whole thing in the kinda light shade of blue , like the casing .
Marketing: We cou Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} But then what colour would you make the R_s ?
Industrial Designer: {gap} just the the company logo . So maybe there's like a set design which we get printed off .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well , but you've got the company logo on there , which would effectively be a stick-on badge . So you're {disfmarker} in a sense , you're comparing the product without the company logo .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: And then y but you've got the space for it to stick it on .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: Hey , what what what's the company colour ? Did you get told what the company colour is or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I'm still not quite sure we've established that .
User Interface: No ,
Project Manager: Don't think so .
User Interface: I just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But but i but in the sense that , as you saw with um the Windows logo badge , it doesn't really matter .
User Interface: We got the logo off the web browser .
Marketing: Oh right .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: There's virtually n The way that you frame , you know , the Windows badge on there , it really doesn't matter what colour it is ,
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: {gap} so long as our company's logo is framed w in the same way as that with a like a black outline .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Fact , they've got black and white or black and silver . So basically , even if you had a silver {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the same colour of silver on your display , because you've got effectively a double edging on the uh on the logo , it means that it splits off what your logo is from the from the product .
Marketing: Mm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And that's actually quite a sneaky way of doing it .
Marketing: Okay . Uh-huh . 'Cause you've got sort of {disfmarker} we've got point two to play with if you really wanted to .
Project Manager: You could put in another {disfmarker}
Marketing: Another colour .
Project Manager: Well , in this one , you've actually got three colours of buttons .
Marketing: Or would that be t
Project Manager: Well , we decided that the blue ones were the um the standard colour .
Marketing: Yeah . Okay .
Project Manager: So you were talking about uh um {disfmarker} We're assuming that all the buttons on the second panel , the hidden away panel , would all be standard .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Which m may or may not be the case .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Shall we save the point two for profitability then ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , yeah . Bu but but uh was the was there not a button that you were thinking of on the um on the other opt you know , on the second page , as it were , that uh you were thinking of maybe having as a different colour ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um , I don't think they would really need to be . I think if they were just all small round blue buttons , it'd be fine .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , maybe we've m {vocalsound}
User Interface: Needs to be an enter button , but could just be the same as well .
Industrial Designer: Maybe for the the one they're gonna see all the time , we make it look good , and um , fit the kind of idea of what they want .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: And then for the more functional buttons , we don't worry too much about that and just have that as like a {disfmarker} plus it's hidden away anyway , you're not gonna see it at the start .
Marketing: Yeah . I mean it's the sort of thing that , I mean , you wanna pick up the controller and just hit a button quickly to change the channel or volume .
Project Manager: Yeah , well {disfmarker}
Marketing: So , if it's dead obvious , then that's fine . But if you're opening the panel and you're looking and you're tuning , then you're paying a bit more attention . So it may be sort of different colour buttons isn't so important .
Project Manager: Alright . Okay .
Marketing: 'Cause you {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So we just add that to profitability in effect . {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , I mean so we've dropped the cost , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Right , so we're meant to finish up in five minutes .
Marketing: Same sort of function ? The criteria ? It's alright .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Just made a load of money . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Shouldn't we maybe lose a point on fashion , go to a three ? 'Cause we've lost the overall spongy feel . 'Cause it doesn't seem right that it just hasn't changed at all . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well , but I think we said that w Because you got rid of the rubber , we put an extra an extra sort of fruit um shape on one of the buttons .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Alright .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} le lemon sh
User Interface: Did we decide what that was , which button it was ? On the volume ones ?
Marketing: I think {disfmarker} well , we could have lemon shaped ones with the volume ones or something . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Right . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh , {gap} . That's good .
Marketing: Or something like that . Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Definitely lemon shaped .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Did {disfmarker} did you have to have a rubber case , though , for rubber buttons ? Or was it the other way around ?
Industrial Designer: You had to have rubber buttons if you had the rubber case .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So I think we can {disfmarker} we're okay .
Marketing: Right , okay .
Project Manager: So we're okay this way around .
Marketing: Yeah . So that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Until the design team comes in and says , get off .
Marketing: so we've saved {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But you are the design team . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Then we say it's fine , so it's all good .
Marketing: Saved two Euros on that .
Project Manager: So what bit are we on to ?
User Interface: Um , can I just check if that's a cherry or an apple ? Did we decide against the apple because of Apple Mac ? And did we make it a cherry officially ?
Project Manager: Yeah . I th I th {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Oh . Right , okay .
Industrial Designer: Just in case we need that point two for lawsuits and such like . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh drats , I've botched that , haven't I .
User Interface: So were we aiming for a certain target on that scale ?
Marketing: Well , we're aiming for um one for all of them .
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: M but it really has to fit into the budget , so {disfmarker} I guess we just have to adjust things to get it i in the {disfmarker} Which is fair enough . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And we seem to have {gap} least something in each criteria . We haven't completely left anything out , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah , I think
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} As an overall product which has to be quite cheap , we've just about achieved everything .
Marketing: most {disfmarker} Yeah . Yep .
User Interface: So do we have anything else to discuss ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} I don't know . What's on the agenda ?
Project Manager: Right , okay um {disfmarker} What's happened here ? Right , okay um {disfmarker} Mm {vocalsound} . Right , okay um , {gap} {disfmarker} Right . So we got {disfmarker} So we've done the the finance bit and the Excel project and the {disfmarker} We've done the redesign .
Industrial Designer: We've got the closing .
Project Manager: So we're now on to project process . Now satisfaction with , for example , room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , means , et cetera , whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera . So , we're actually now uh , in a sense , on to the evaluation of the course rather than the evaluation of the project is m my understanding of it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh-huh .
Project Manager: So what did you {disfmarker} and remembering that nobody's just over the curtain . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Finish your meeting now . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We should just go through this quickly and then {disfmarker}
User Interface: Huh .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I suppose the easiest way of doing it is to put some notes down , which I will do .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: So , uh I think I have to finish that page . Right , okay , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Project evaluation . So , um {disfmarker} Creativity . Did you feel you got a chance to express yourselves {vocalsound} well enough ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um , yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Well um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I thought some of the divisions though between sort of the individual meetings were a bit arbitrary .
Project Manager: Individual meetings . How do you mean ?
Marketing: Yeah . Well , we were finding out various things in {vocalsound} in be in-between the meetings ,
Project Manager: In you on your own .
Marketing: and they didn't {disfmarker} the one meeting didn't always follow on for the other one , you know , sort of {disfmarker} we had things thrown in at the second meeting where , you know , you'd looked at the remote controls and seen the curviness , but in the first one you'd also looked at some remote controls and looked at the buttons ,
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: and I don't understand why it would be in separate meetings that you'd do that . You know , you'd sort of {disfmarker} you'd probably present it at one or something like that .
Project Manager: Mm , {gap} {disfmarker} The only thing you find is in a manufacturing process , you would {disfmarker} normally , you go to a meeting , you decide , right , you do this , you do that , you do that .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Then you go away . You find out information . You then come back . You then discuss it . You then go and change things around ,
Marketing: Uh-huh .
Project Manager: and then go back . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I suppose and then {gap} be going out and finding more information each time
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Whereas , this time , you're really getting it from a database source ,
Industrial Designer: and then diff things will be relevant .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: so it's not uh well uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Anyway , so , what do you want to put down ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I've put , seemed okay . Creativity , seemed okay . Um um flow of information on on any given subject {disfmarker} given subject um sometimes disjointed . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: I think it maybe could have been a slightly more creative project . I mean a remote control isn't the most um kind of fancy thing that you could imagine designing .
Marketing: Yeah , the thing itself .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: I can't think of a better example at the minute .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Have {disfmarker} could have used a different example {disfmarker} pel to increase {disfmarker} create {disfmarker} Creativity .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Is this go {disfmarker} It kinda kis fits the purpose that it was something everyone knows about and then something we can at least look at and think how we can improve on .
Project Manager: You have to do it within a set time frame is the other thing , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah . But {gap} think like it was a bit restrictive just to say that you have to design a television remote control , in a way . I mean it depends what sort of business you're in , I guess . I mean this one seems {gap} . From the website it looks {gap} it's quite innovative , but we're coming up with some bucket shop product aren't we
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: that's , you know , fifteen quid . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} one of those things . Like uh , companies can have like a range of products and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I th I uh d
Industrial Designer: {gap} I don't know how it works but I guess that something got sent out and {gap} have like a brief to kind of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But the other thing is that uh they're {disfmarker} I'm guessing that they're trying to use this um software to to demonstrate how you could uh do a project . I mean , m my wife at the moment , for instance , is uh acting as a computer
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: um {vocalsound} for um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you {disfmarker} normally , you got a problem , so you go to your tutor and find out information to see how to get it fixed .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So what she's doing is she's {vocalsound} having to spend a day at the computer terminal at one end so that any student that comes along can uh ask whatever question . And then you {disfmarker} or the idea is that the {disfmarker} whichever uh person's at the other end can point them in the right direction , show them where to {disfmarker} either give them directly {disfmarker} give them help , or secondly , point them in the right direction , either at the library , or uh or or come back , or go and see Joe Bloggs , or whatever . So uh , and that was a project I suspect similar to this , because they they were actually trying to debug the uh computer software to enable um {disfmarker} to enable it to work . And of course , you had the machine crashing
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: and various things going wrong . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well , sh {gap} we look at the last slide ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: see if it's got anything else .
Project Manager: Alright ,
Industrial Designer: {gap} I think there's one one more to go .
Project Manager: so we've got uh
Marketing: Yeah . {gap} I mean if you look at their products on their website here , Real Reaction , I mean it's all pretty high-tech and cutting edge .
Project Manager: New ideas found ,
Marketing: And {disfmarker}
Project Manager: did we find any , no .
Industrial Designer: It was quite good with this um {disfmarker} the white board , having that and the digital pens .
Project Manager: Alright .
Industrial Designer: Like , that's something that made it a little easier .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Leadership , teamwork .
Marketing: {gap} we did find a new idea , I mean sort of a kinetic remote control . I've never seen one of them before . {gap} batteries , I think . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Does {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} voice recognition , especially not {gap} could {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You've got voice recognition computers ,
Marketing: Mm yeah .
Project Manager: that's not remote controls .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Well it's a different application of it .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , so it's just like the same products , but just put together in a different way .
Project Manager: so how do you reckon teamwork went ?
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: That went okay , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I guess we all had separate ideas and then discussed them .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: To uh go uh reasonably well . Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I don't think sort of the budget um allowed us to do anything {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Bit {disfmarker} bit arbitrary . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well , I mean I don't think it {disfmarker} I just don't think it fitted in with the rest of their products . I mean , they've got all these sort of , you know , high definition D_V_D_ and portable seven inch d um lightweight computer screens ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and uh I'm thinking , do you know , one cheap remote control doesn't really fit in .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So , we're m we're meant to comment on leadership and the means , E_ G_ whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Surely they they should produ
Project Manager: And and new i new ideas found was the the other thing .
User Interface: Well leadership's a bit of a funny one , isn't it .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} But we can't really all fairly comment on leadership because you are the Project Manager .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: You were the leader . {vocalsound} So our experience of leadership wasn't really as much as yours . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Now , I'd much rather be in marketing {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I certainly didn't get this uh computer to work as well as I would have liked .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: However , um {disfmarker} Alright uh means , so whiteboard um {disfmarker} so really , it's uh equipment . Oh .
Marketing: Yeah . It worked .
User Interface: Yeah , very nice . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Comput computers could be a bit difficult at times but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: But I mean , I d I don't {disfmarker} I'm not sure I see the value in these . I mean , they record what you're writing , and then what do you do with it ? Where do you get the recording ? Do you plug {gap} the computer or something ?
Marketing: I think there's a little there's a little um chi
Industrial Designer: So it's not just for us , it's for the experiment as a whole , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: There's a little there's a little chip , I think you must plug it into something
Industrial Designer: Should we quickly look at the last slide ?
Marketing: and it produces a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Sh {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Right . I think you watch a video of it kind of .
Marketing: I don't know . Whether it just produces a big image of sort of everything you've written or something , and {disfmarker} Page after page .
Project Manager: Right . New ideas found , so one or two .
Marketing: Yeah . Kinetic powered remote control . Um , what was the other one ?
User Interface: Voice um recognition thing .
Marketing: Vo yeah .
Project Manager: {gap} um and uh voice
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: uh , was it voice activated um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Voice recognition , yeah . S
Project Manager: recognition .
Marketing: Almost .
User Interface: Pretty much . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} To fill in these fill in these questionnaires
Project Manager: Right , so , uh are the costs within budget ,
Marketing: Oh no .
Project Manager: yes . Is the project evaluated , yes . Uh , don't forget to complete final questionnaire and meeting summary . Then celebration . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} . Is that everything ?
Marketing: Hmm ? I think that we've got two questionnaires and a report on the last meeting .
Project Manager: Yeah . Uh , so we don't re So really {disfmarker} I tried to save this the last time at twelve point three , and it didn't seem to have saved anywhere . Mind you , the the figure last was was different , but it should be poss
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Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} I g yeah . Time is it ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Fourteen twenty six .
Project Manager: Okay . Lovely to see you all again . Um {vocalsound} it's our conceptual design meeting and it's starting at approximately fourteen twenty five and so we have forty minutes for this one again and so we'll go just after three o'clock . Um okay {vocalsound} our agenda , we're gonna do an opening , I'm gonna review the minutes of the last meeting , then we'll have your three presentations um and then we'll have to make a decision on the remote control concepts , and finally we'll close . So
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: opening . Um these are our minutes from r the functional design . We decided our target group is the focus on who can afford it , because we have international appeal and we said it's for all age groups , different um functions of it . Our main objectives were simplicity and fashion . {vocalsound} And s um in specific functions are something to keep the remote from getting lost , large buttons for the essential functions , a possibility for extra functions , like a sliding a sliding piece {vocalsound} and a long-life battery or a charging station . Okay , now three presentations . I'd like to do it in this order , first do the conceptual specification of components , properties and materials {vocalsound} um and then the conceptual specification of user interface {vocalsound} and finally trend watching .
Industrial Designer: That would be me .
User Interface: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Alright . Well .
Project Manager: Mm . 'kay . Function F_ eight it . There we go .
Industrial Designer: Alright . Um I'm very excited by this one actually guys I uh had a lot of fun doing it . Components design . This is where you look at what does it take to make a remote control and what should we make our specific remote control out of . {vocalsound} Um . So , we need to examine each element separately , but we're designing a full thing , so you wanna keep it integrated as a whole . The main elements of remote controls in general , and therefore ours as well , are the case , the buttons , the circuit board with the chip and the battery . These are all things that we had sort of addressed before , but I'm gonna take each one a little bit separately here as we figure out what they should be made of and what they should look like . The case , uh the options that I've gotten from headquarters about what we can do , um there's there's the shape of a case , we could do a flat sh a flat case , a curved case or maybe even a double double-curved case . I haven't seen any pictures of what this exactly looks like yet , just keep that in mind , but these are the options that we have from manufacturing and we can make our case out of plastic , the m the main base will be plastic , but we have all these sort of fashion and technological elements we can add in , wood , latex , titanium , rubber or other coloured types of plastic . That would be our case . Um buttons , for buttons we have um pushbuttons , which is what Real Reaction uses the most often , but we also have scror scroll wheels ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: which can have integrated pushbuttons , or we could go all high-tech and have an L_ L_C_D_ screen . {vocalsound} Um circuit board and chip we can have a simple one , a regular one or an advanced one , depending on what our other needs are . And then battery I think is where things get most exciting . We're talking about long-life batteries here . {vocalsound} Um we can we can have your sort of basic double A_ batteries , but we also have these options of um {vocalsound} using a kinetic battery , like are used in high-tech watches , where you just have to move it a little bit to get it to power up . Um so simple movements like pushing buttons would recharge the battery . Or a solar battery , although there are slight um {vocalsound} complications with solar batteries as in we can't use a latex case if we have a solar battery .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Or um something they only described as the type of battery you find in torches from about fifty years ago , flashlights . Not quite sure what that is , but that's the description that I received , so that's what I'm passing on to you . {vocalsound} So those are our options . Um personal preferences that I was thinking through {disfmarker} here's what we've been talking about all through , fashion and simplicity . So if we're going for fashion in our cases , I think that what we're gonna wanna look at is a curved or a double-curved case , probably with a variety of design elements . Maybe titanium , maybe some wood . We're gonna have to investigate that better when I get specifics of the actual materials , but that's sort of what I have in mind . And we wanna go for simplicity . Probably pushbuttons , but I'm sort of intrigued by the idea of a scroll scroll wheel , if anyone has anything
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: any ideas on that ? I mean I know the iPods and things right now have touch scroll um buttons which are exactly like what they're describing , so that might be something we wanna look into . And I'm really intrigued by the idea of a kinetic battery . {vocalsound} Solar I don't think would be such a good idea , because how often are you sure that your remote control will get a certain amount of light .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But this idea of the kinetic , that you don't have to replace , and that a simple just shaking it around will make it work , I think that that m would be a very interesting thing . But I think we'd also wanna go for e a simple chip or regular chip to keep our costs down . Uh we really only need a regular or advanced chip t if we're gonna start using an L_C_D_ . So I think we want to be aware of not making things overly t technological if they don't need to be , 'cause that'll keep our manufacturing price way down . That's what I have for options . Um I'd appreciate anyone's input , but that's what I'm seeing for the future of the the look of this thing . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Is double-curved like {disfmarker} would be like two hands kind of thing ?
Industrial Designer: I'm not sure . I haven't received any specific
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: visuals of this yet .
Marketing: 'Cause I'm imagining like double-curved is like , you know , like two sides that curve
Industrial Designer: This is what I'm sort of {disfmarker}
Marketing: and then like one curve would just be like a single vertical-ish kind of looking thing ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . I'm not sure ,
Marketing: but I've no idea .
Industrial Designer: but I'll let you know as soon as I get any pictures .
Marketing: Sounds good .
Project Manager: Yeah , I wonder {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I know if we do have a double-curved case , it can't have any titanium in it . But the titanium , they were quite {disfmarker} they're marketing quite hard to us as being used in the space programme , so that could be quite interesting .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Space-age remote .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Just an interesting marketing kind of element .
Industrial Designer: Just all things to keep in mind . Yeah . {vocalsound} That's about all I have to do , guys . I hope I didn't go through that too quickly .
Project Manager: Uh just a real quick question um the weight of these different elements , have you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , n
Project Manager: no idea , okay .
Industrial Designer: no idea , no idea . Um I'm assuming that a kinetic battery isn't gonna take up that much weight ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and that a tita titanium is very light , I know ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: um but other than {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: that's really basic , I mean , that's all I have gotten so far . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Alright ? Any other questions ?
User Interface: Uh-huh . Don't think so .
Industrial Designer: No ? Okay .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
Industrial Designer: I have save this in the uh shared projects , if anyone wants to look
Project Manager: Thank you , perfect .
Industrial Designer: and I have c considerable notes on the topic as well , if anyone needs any more information . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Thanks .
Project Manager: Um if you made notes yourself you can put those on our um {disfmarker} underneath our {disfmarker} oh , uh in your book ,
Industrial Designer: Just in my notebook ,
Project Manager: then don't worry about that .
Industrial Designer: but if anyone has any specific questions , don't hesitate to email me or something . Alright ? Uh I guess I can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: 'Kay now we're um concepts concepts of user interface . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , um . This one's so much tighter than the other one .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I know .
Project Manager: Okay . Nope . There we go . Here you are .
User Interface: Jess .
Industrial Designer: G oh , geez .
User Interface: Alright , so I'm gonna describe the the concept of the user interface of this des device . Um we've talked about uh the two essential properties of the user interface . We want it to be simple and we want it to be fashionable . Um other {disfmarker} we've also got to remember that this is a device that serves as a useful purpose . Uh we want people to be able to use it s as a remote control , so we need to determine what the essential functions of the d of the device are and make sure that we include {disfmarker} that we've included all of those and that we actually end up with a device that is going to be useful to people . We have a number of different choices for a design concept um and s that's that's something that that I'll show you some examples of um , but essentially we need to choose how how is this device going to work ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: how how {disfmarker} what kind of model is there going to be for user interaction with this device . Uh once we've chosen a a concept for it , we can then design the features around the concept , making sure that we get all the essential functions in the device and uh the extra functions and the more advanced features . And of course we also have to make it look cool .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So basically ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: that's what we don't want . {vocalsound} M we don't want lots of buttons , uh complicated features . We want something that looks nice and simple .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: Here's a a fairly simple device . This is an an iPod from Apple . Um I think the main thing to notice about it is it just has four buttons . It's very minimalistic in its design . Uh you use these four buttons to m to move around a range of settings on the small L_C_D_ screen . Um {vocalsound} the thing I like about this is that it's very very quick to access the main features . Uh you can just about make out uh that the button {disfmarker} three buttons are uh previous track , next track and play pause . They're the main the main features of the iPod , the things you will use a all the time . Um then if you want to do anything more advanced , you go into the little menu on the L_C_D_ screen and you use the buttons just to scroll around and and find the more advanced features that you want . So I think that's that's a good a good kind of model that we could have . Um {vocalsound} here's a another example . This is uh {disfmarker} it's an interesting idea and I think i it looks pretty cool . Um it's certainly got novelty value .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Uh it's nice and colourful , it's nice and bright . Uh it's also something that you can kind of feel your way around . The buttons are are different shapes and and you can sort of {disfmarker} yeah if you're watching T_V_ in the dark or whatever , you can work out which button's which and basically , yeah it's ith it's fun . So I {vocalsound} I like I like this idea of just having buttons for the features that you use most often . So you'd need a few buttons to select your favourite channels . I mean most people , when they watch T_V_ , they have two hundred and fifty channels on their T_V_ and they watch of 'bout four of them at the most . So , you have buttons for your favourite channel , changing the volume , which is something you do all the time when you're watching T_V_ , and the button to switch it off , in case you get bored . Um other features , things like adjusting the brightness , tuning the T_V_ , uh I don't know what else you do with a T_V_ . Um but these are these are all necessary functions . Uh you can't have a t there's no point having a television that you can't tune or that you can't set the contrast , so we need to find a way of including these somehow . Um and one other suggestions I'd make is to in is to include in a menu system , a bit like on the iPod . So we'd either have a small L_C_D_ display on the device itself , or uh have a dis a menu display that comes up on your television and can b be controlled through the device .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: And that would allow you to access access the advanced features uh whilst keeping a very small and simple set of buttons for the features that you use most often .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: So you'd be advocating an L_C_D_ then ?
User Interface: I think that's {vocalsound} that's one way to go , yes .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Um I mean there are there are advantages and disadvantages if you if you have an L_C_D_ display , it's it's nice , because it's {disfmarker} it it lets you just sort of sit there and st and control your television from your armchair .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: There are disadvantages , an an L_C_D_ display would have to be quite small , 'cause we're we're {vocalsound} I {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right
User Interface: well we're {disfmarker} I assume we're gonna be making quite a small device . Um it would also have to have uh a kind of backlighting in it , 'cause you ten you tend to watch T_V_ in the dark ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: but you need to be able to see your L_D_D_ L_C_D_ display . The alternative is to have a {vocalsound} an on-screen display on your television that you control through your remote control . Uh a bit like a bit like how they have these um digital boxes where you you press the buttons and it comes up with your {disfmarker} this thing of watch lo what's on each channel .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: I mean that that's also a good idea . It's it can it does have it's problems as well , if you've got a small T_V_ and you're sitting on the other side of a room , it's hard to read the little text that comes up .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Uh but that's a that's a design decision that we can make .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Project Manager: I do think that um one of the important features for a remote is seeing a menu and seeing what's on .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um and so
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: like favourite channels is is applicable , but I think th that you do need to have some kind of function where it's {disfmarker} um you have t you can see the title of the show or possibly a description of it .
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker} Are you are you tak
Project Manager: Like I I know I use that often enough .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait , but is that separate from what he was saying ?
Project Manager: Well
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: if it if it was a L_ L_C_D_ on th on the remote , I don't know that you could f that you'd be able to see a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No , I think I think we're talking menu like contrast and tuning the V_C_R_ or something if I've understood you correctly , rather than menu as what's on .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah , that that would be one of the features , yes .
Project Manager: Okay . 'Cause that would be more specifically a digital box ,
User Interface: But it's it's it's something to bear in mind is that if we put a display on the remote control the c uh communication is one way ,
Project Manager: mm-hmm .
User Interface: so you can't have the televisions and information back to the remote control , at least I don't think you can .
Industrial Designer: Oh , good point .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Um I'm not sure .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , now we're moving on to market . Marketing .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Should I plug that in ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Is that going on ? Okay .
Marketing: Maybe it's just not {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh that should be alright , actually .
Marketing: Is it on ? Ri What F_ do you have to press ,
Project Manager: Eight .
Marketing: five ? I just keep pressing lots of 'em . Well , I don't know how relevant all of this gonna be . {vocalsound} If anything , the {gap} that they gave me .
Project Manager: Oops , it's not plugged in , quite in well enough .
Industrial Designer: No signal .
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: There we are .
Industrial Designer: Oop , there we go .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
Marketing: Oh yeah . {vocalsound} Okay , so we're gonna look a little bit at trend watching . {vocalsound} Basically , I was given um an executive summary that was a market investigation on remote controls that was recently conducted , and then also some fashion watchers in Paris and Milan commented on some things that are gonna be going on this year .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So first um they had people {disfmarker} they ranked um the important aspects of r remote controls , and right now i d they're saying that currently there's a functional look and feel preference , but that really , over the next year it it that's gonna be switching to fancy look and feel remotes , so that just goes back to the whole desire of our c Real Reaction company wanting to focus on fashion and so , even though we're stressing , when we're talking , we've all been talking about this like simplicity and easy to use idea , they're sort of wanting us to remember that the number one thing for everyone is that it's fancy look and feel . And as these are ranked , the top one is doubly important to the second one , which is doubly important to the third one ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: so just to take that weight into account . {vocalsound} The second thing that was mentioned as important was the technological innovations . That would be like if we use something like the space material or the L_C_D_ screen , things like that . And then ease of use was the third most important , whi so really , no matter what , we need to focus the most on fancy look and feel , according to this . I don't know how much we agree with that . {vocalsound} And then {vocalsound} the fashion watch talks about that this year's top trend for clothes ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: shoes and furniture is fruits and vegetables and tha that there's a preference for spongy , {vocalsound} tight material .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: S sweet .
Marketing: {vocalsound} And so that brings us to my personal preferences . Who wants a spongy remote or one with {vocalsound} fruit and vegetable padding .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Personally , I don't really think that I want one that's gonna go out of style or go stale , excuse the pun , um in a year , so
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} even though this is coming from us as , you know , trend watch , market research , I don't know how much of it we necessarily {vocalsound} wanna take away .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Also , considering that the d research b has been carried out by Real Reaction , I'm a little hesitant as to {vocalsound} like , how these questions may have been worded , and if necessarily this whole fashion to technology y edas ease of use is necessarily the right ranking . Personally , like I might reverse it , but if we're working for this company then I guess no matter what , we have to stress fashion the most . {vocalsound} But {vocalsound} it doesn't necessarily need to be a spongy material . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That {disfmarker} there's all kinds of scope for imagination in that one though .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} I don't have a lot of notes to share if you want them ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: that pretty much sums it up . So yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , do we have any {disfmarker} s some questions for this , let's see um .
Marketing: Yeah , what can I possibly enlighten on ?
Project Manager: Um do you have any ideas how to possibly use these ? Um how to how to use a fruit or vegetable or um or the spongy material at all ?
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Like could we make a s like could we make a spongy remote ? It would be easier on the hands .
Industrial Designer: If it's latex {disfmarker} if it's latexy {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's kind of {disfmarker} and then it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um , mean {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we would have to find a way to protect like the chip and all that ,
User Interface: A kind of thing that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I dunno . But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: An uh I {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} th {vocalsound} my understanding of a latex case is that it's in fact hard to protect stuff inside ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: but that it's covered with the latex , which is spongier and softer on your hands . It's {disfmarker} there's something to be said , I mean we we got that thing earlier from you about um not wanting it to {disfmarker} R_ R_ repetitive stress injuries and things
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Marketing: Yeah , so something , m m instead of a necess
Industrial Designer: something grippable , I mean we don't we don't we don't wanna go spongy , maybe . {vocalsound}
Marketing: yeah , grip , I'm thinking grip more than like sinking into your hands ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: you know , i and I think I'm envisioning more like , you know , the material that you have when you sit on like a bicycle ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: so that it doesn't hurt when you're sitting down for a long time ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: like I'm imagining that sort of thing , I don't know what th that material's called .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I think that given the list of materials I w I was forwarded it's {disfmarker} that seems doable . {vocalsound} could we go in fruit and vegetable colours ? We could colour-co-ordinate them ,
Project Manager: F for sure , or maybe like
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: li
Project Manager: um couple main ones being like , I dunno , lemons or strawberries or something .
Industrial Designer: The buttons could be fruit-shaped .
Project Manager: Could they be smelly ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} I Is it supposed to be shaped like a vegetable ? Uh like uh I dunno , like uh carrots or something .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh well
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh God .
Project Manager: I don't know .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Or carrot shaped ,
Industrial Designer: it's quite easy to s shape thing like carrot
Project Manager: mm .
Industrial Designer: isn't it ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Maybe ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Like large button ,
Industrial Designer: Or maybe the buttons could be shaped like different fruits .
User Interface: or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: that's what I was thinking of , yeah .
Marketing: What about the idea of like a round remote ? Instead of like a vertical up and down one . Like in terms of holding it . Like that's a f shape of a fruit .
Industrial Designer: {gap} be {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Kind of like a potato .
Industrial Designer: yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Might {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It'd be harder to f bu uh buttons I think .
Project Manager: would you think you you {disfmarker} do you think you'd be able to hold it ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Just to tie it in a little .
Project Manager: 'Cause I think the reason they're long is {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: It'd be harder to press button .
Project Manager: Harder to push .
User Interface: Depends . When you when you use a remote , do you press the buttons with your thumb , usually ? Or your fingers ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I usually hold it in one hand . Maybe {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker}
User Interface: Or maybe you want something that's shaped like a mobile phone , so you you hold it in one hand , and you press the buttons with your thumb .
Project Manager: But then the buttons would have to be very small .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's ts how I tend to do it .
Project Manager: Don't you think ?
Industrial Designer: No
Marketing: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: just thumb-sized .
Marketing: 'cause otherwise your fingers can't move around .
Industrial Designer: Jus
Project Manager: But I mean in order to get to all of them ,
Marketing: But I like i
Project Manager: you know .
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: They would have to be within a certain amount of space with each other .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Maybe .
Industrial Designer: That's true .
User Interface: But if you've only got like four or five buttons anyway , then it's it's not so much a problem , perhaps .
Industrial Designer: Right . I When I'm when I'm pressing buttons on my iPod , that's how I do it , hold it and press the four . Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So you hold it in one hand and you press you press the buttons with your thumb
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , or in and use my thumb or my pointer finger on the touch scroll wheel .
User Interface: and {disfmarker} And you find that works quite well ?
Marketing: I love the idea of the wheel like the iPod .
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Is that {disfmarker}
Marketing: 'Cause th
User Interface: The button on an iPod , is it {disfmarker} what is it , is it just four buttons or is it li more like a scroll thing ?
Marketing: It's like five ,
Project Manager: It's a scroll , yeah , it's a wheel .
Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} wel well {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'cause there's one in the middle .
Industrial Designer: yeah , it would {disfmarker} I mean each version of it has been a little bit different ,
Project Manager: The one I have doesn't have the four on i like around it , I don't think .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Oh yeah , you had one of the in-between ones , when they weren't doing that anymore . Ts and you press the centre button ,
User Interface: Right .
Industrial Designer: that's that's your all-purpose select button right there .
User Interface: Oh , I see , right , yeah . Oh , okay .
Industrial Designer: Since it's the one in the centre that's not marked , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , that's quite a good design .
Marketing: I think why it would be good for us is 'cause like you could have the same wheel sort of effect for like channel flipping and then the other one could be like for volume .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Like just the idea of like those {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh uh
Marketing: so few buttons for main things ,
Industrial Designer: t
Marketing: but then how you could go back to the menu and like , I dunno if we would want it on the screen there or on the actual T_V_ . I kind of am wanting to say on the T_V_ ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: 'cause if you're changing the brightness , don't you wanna see it happening , kind of ?
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: And then you could still have that available .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I think an {vocalsound} L_C_D_ screen might be good in theory , but not as useful in practice .
User Interface: I think it could be difficult in practice ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: yeah . Also z yeah , 'cause you would be z looking down at the L_C_D_ screen , than back up at your T_V_
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and people don't wanna do that .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay um we have we've about fifteen minutes left ,
Industrial Designer: Oh we probably have to get going , don't we ?
Project Manager: so I'm I'm gonna continue with my pres presentation . Um I've one more slide before we close , but in that slide is when we need to make decisions about this {disfmarker} these kinds of things , so I'll just bring that up and show you all
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} 'Kay .
Project Manager: before we move on . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Could {disfmarker} Could we uh could we have changeable covers like for your mobile ? In different fruit and vegetable colours ,
Marketing: If I get any more information of fruits and vegetables , I'll let you know .
User Interface: Like , to make it different fruits . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , it's possible .
Project Manager: Yeah , and then like the the covers could be spongy latex
Industrial Designer: Exactly .
Project Manager: wherea but the actual model could be titanium .
Industrial Designer: And you could co-ordinate with your house {vocalsound} or whatever . All these options .
User Interface: I think maybe th the packaging , it should be like a lemon and the the packaging is like the peel .
Industrial Designer: Ooh .
User Interface: So instead of opening the box you just kind of peel it , and the remote control's inside .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well ,
Project Manager: Ah hmm hmm hmm .
Industrial Designer: Oh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Don't know . {vocalsound}
Marketing: there we go . The iPod packaging is me like was so {disfmarker} that was like half the fun .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: It's like the way it all comes all cute .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Options .
Marketing: Lemons ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , um {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: components concept . Energy , chip on print .
Industrial Designer: Uh-hu oh , oh yes .
Project Manager: G
Industrial Designer: Right , I had sort of skipped over that hoping it wouldn't get {disfmarker} be necessary but um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's th th this is the agenda they gave me . So can you just explain what that is real quick ?
Industrial Designer: Alright , so um decisions , what the {disfmarker} okay deci decisions on energy I'm thinking is based on the battery .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um I dunno , what do people think about this kinetic battery idea ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think it's awesome . I think it's really cool .
Industrial Designer: Am I {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , I mean , it would t totally take care of our problem of not wanting to change batteries .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , um I think it's good , as as long as we consider the the cost and the uh how reliable it is ,
Industrial Designer: Right , I haven't gotten any {disfmarker}
User Interface: but as far as I know , the technology is good .
Marketing: Costs .
Industrial Designer: yeah , any more information on cost other than it's more expensive than a regular battery , but um but if we're using a an i a cheaper chip , then it'll even out , I think .
Marketing: But over time {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um circuit boards . Um yeah , I got a whole bunch of information on how circuit boards are produced . They're {vocalsound} they're thin fibreglass with copper wires etched on to them , and di I think they're quite easily printed on by machine , which is chip on print is where the machine prints on the wires and solders it all together for us .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't really know what to tell you as far as decisions . I wasn't really given any options , I was just given that this is how they're done .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Um yeah , I can't can't really tell you . I can I can tell you a whole lot about how it works . But I don't know any decisions on {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: If they're if they're really options .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I'm sorry ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I did f
User Interface: Al all circuit boards are pretty much the same , I think . Uh it's fairly fairly standard .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um okay , then we'll move on to the case . Um oh bu I guess maybe if we decided on like a simple , a regular , or an advanced chip , maybe .
Industrial Designer: Right . Well okay , here's the here's the thing on the chips that I that I got . Um simple , regular , advanced chip on print . The chip on print includes an infrared sensor , so we don't have to worry about that . Um , {vocalsound} 'kay , the pushbutton {disfmarker} if we're gonna have pushbuttons , they require a simple chip , but a scroll wheel requires a regular chip , and an L_C_D_ requires advanced . Do we want a scroll wheel , or do we just want pushbuttons ?
User Interface: Um I don't think we ne really need the scroll whe wheel . I mean it might be nice for changing the volume .
Project Manager: It would be nice for changing the volume ,
Industrial Designer: Oh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but I don't know how useful it'd be for changing the channel . 'Cause you don't have control over numbers
User Interface: I don't think it would really work .
Marketing: Yeah , it's a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
User Interface: Yeah , you really need buttons for changing a channel .
Industrial Designer: th it'd be it'd be handy for going through if there was an on-screen menu of your channel choices , than you can scroll down on the scroll .
Marketing: {vocalsound} But if you c if you could scroll through the channels , and then the volume would just be
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: We have five minutes left for the meeting , so .
Marketing: and the volume would just be like the same way , forward and backward as {disfmarker} I'm just thinking like it would make it much like sleeker sort of looking .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: And otherwise , no matter how may buttons we have , we're gonna have like , you know , black with red sticking out and th no {disfmarker} it's gonna inevitably sort of start looking like those group of sort of ugly ones that we saw stacked up .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: So , have a scroll for volume ?
Industrial Designer: F or for all those secret functions ?
Project Manager: F
Industrial Designer: When you get on the on-screen menu of all your functions that your remote could do for you without the buttons and you could have a scroll wheel to go through those menus .
User Interface: I think {disfmarker} yeah , I think a scroll wheel would be nice , but it's not necessary . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Right . So we could either go with a simple or a regular chip , depending {disfmarker} and maybe we could table that decision for later .
Project Manager: Um .
Industrial Designer: I don't know .
Project Manager: I think w well {disfmarker} I think when we go on to the une userface , we're gonna have to decide {disfmarker} the interface we're gonna have to decide um whether we're gonna have a scroll or not .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Well , let's think about that while we talk about the case .
Project Manager: Okay , let's do case .
Industrial Designer: Uh I'm kinda liking the idea of latex , if if spongy is the in thing .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I'm a little um I'm a little hesitant about it , because I'm worried about protecting the stuff on the inside .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh could it be hard , and then something around it ?
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah , everything I've {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , I would be more okay with like a titanium actual thing and then maybe like a mobile phone kind of thing .
Industrial Designer: N oh wha what I've what I've seen , just not related to this , but of latex cases before , is that {vocalsound} there's uh like a hard plastic inside , and it's just covered with the latex .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Not too thick a layer of latex , just enough to be grippable , like bike handles or or anything that you've seen like that .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay .
Industrial Designer: The inside is hard . I don't think we need to worry about protecting the circuit board ,
Project Manager: Ge o
Industrial Designer: I think that that's done for us .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: 'Kay . Yeah .
Project Manager: So we uh we do want latex .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Latex . Um and probably in colours , maybe fruity , vegetable colours .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Fruity colours . {vocalsound} Okay um let's go to the ufe user interface then we'll come back to the chip I suppose .
Industrial Designer: Oh and we want a curved case , yeah ? Or a double-curved ?
Project Manager: Well , we don't really know what the difference is , right ?
Marketing: I'm thinking curved of some sort .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We don't really know what the difference {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um okay , interface , the type and the supplements . So push or scroll ,
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: right ? Or both ?
User Interface: Yep . Um {disfmarker} And I think if we wanna keep our costs down , we should just go for pushbuttons , 'cause then we can have a a simple chip and it's simpler , it's it's cheaper to make pushbuttons than it is a scroll button .
Industrial Designer: Good point .
User Interface: So in terms of uh in terms of uh economics it's probably better to have pushbuttons .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . And if we had a sc an on-screen um kind of thing that you could scroll through , like you can use your buttons to scroll through things .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah , it's uh {vocalsound} it's it's fairly simple .
Project Manager: I think that {disfmarker} yeah . For channel surfing I think a scroll {disfmarker} an actual {disfmarker} like an iPod's kind of scroll thing would be too fast , I dunno .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I say pushbuttons at least unless we get any information but I have no idea how much more expensive a scroll wheel is than than a pushbutton , but it's gotta be some more expensive , so I think it might be better to put our money into the stuff like the kinetic battery and the cool case
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Is that okay with you ?
Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker}
Project Manager: How you feeling ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . And let's like see if we get anything else . I mean I'm not like hard-sold on the scroll wheel , it's more just to give it a different kind of look ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: but if it's gonna be in a latex type thing and that's gonna look cool , then that's probably gonna have a bigger impact than the scroll wheel .
Project Manager: It might be cool enough .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , so we're gonna go with um type pushbuttons , and then supplements ,
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: how are we gonna do that ?
User Interface: Uh what do you mean by supplements , exactly ?
Project Manager: Um I assume that's what else we're gonna {disfmarker} like h ha the um the additional buttons we can use .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So we're gonna have like a menu button ,
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Project Manager: so that we can access on-screen things then ?
User Interface: Yep . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , um so we're doing an on-screen menu that we can scroll through .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
User Interface: Um in {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So what are what are our buttons gonna be ?
User Interface: Yeah . On off ,
Industrial Designer: On off {disfmarker}
User Interface: uh volume , favourite channels , uh and menu .
Industrial Designer: So like one through five , or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , yeah
Marketing: Like a radio type sorta situation ?
User Interface: about {disfmarker} yeah like {disfmarker} yeah , a bit like radio presets . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Pre-set channels and then we're gonna need um numbers one through zero , right ?
User Interface: Uh we wouldn't even need the numbers .
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: I think maybe numbers seems {disfmarker} is kind of old-fashioned .
Project Manager: Well , but in order to pre-set a cha oh I guess you can just hold it down when you get to one when you're scrolling through .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah , you can just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: and you need some kind of , I dunno , sort of up down kind of button ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , up down .
User Interface: but the volume control could double for that , for example .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay , um finishing the meeting now . Um our next meeting starts in thirty minutes ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um you each have things to do , look and feel design , user interface design , product evaluation , and you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay . You'll get specific instructions from your personal coach .
Industrial Designer: Ooh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Cool . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Wow .
Project Manager: Um did we decide on a chip ? Let's go with a simple chip ?
Industrial Designer: Simple chip .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: We are done . Thank you everyone . Oh I di these are already in our shared folder , so .
Industrial Designer: Okay , cool . Clay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Clay . I wasn't expecting that . {vocalsound}
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doc_60
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Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . Good morning everybody .
Industrial Designer: Good morning .
Project Manager: Oh , everybody is not ready .
User Interface: Uh almost .
Project Manager: Alright .
User Interface: Ready .
Project Manager: Okay , let's go . So , we're here today to to have our first kick-off meeting about uh this new project we're going to tak to talk about in a few minutes . Um so I will be uh Sebastian the Project Manager . Um you are the {disfmarker}
User Interface: I'm uh Michael . I'm the user interface designer .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Hi I'm Guillermo {gap} . I'm the Marketing Expert .
Industrial Designer: And I am Hemant , the industrial designer .
Project Manager: Okay , very good . Thanks for being here . Um so let's have a look to the the agenda . So , we are going to go through this agenda uh and mainly first to uh {vocalsound} to make {disfmarker} to to be used to the tools uh available in this nice and smart meeting room we have here . Um then we'll go to uh the plans for project and have general discussions about it . So , the goal of this project is to uh developed a new remote control . Um it should be original , trendy , and also user friendly . As usual we will follow the the project method um {vocalsound} that we are using in the {disfmarker} in our company . It is in three step as you know . First the functional design . The second's a conceptual design , and then the detailed design . During each step uh of each design we wi you will work uh s separately , individually on uh your specific tasks and will m we will meet to um to discuss and take decisions about uh what you've you've you did and what uh we will do next . So first , we have to to train ourself with all the um the tools availables in the in this nice meeting room and uh particularly the the white board so uh we are going to go through the white board and take some um s some notes or do some drawings . So who want to start ? Mister {gap} .
User Interface: Ah well if no one else wants to , yeah . Okay so , want me to draw my favourite animal .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's see . Well , I don't really have a favourite animal , but um
Project Manager: You have one in mind ?
User Interface: uh I think I have one in mind , so uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I'm gonna {vocalsound} {gap} about the uh spider because you can actually draw it pretty well in the corner of a white board . The spider has a {disfmarker} spider lives in a web {vocalsound} and uh it has eight legs , and uh it can move all about the web in two dimensions . Unless it's a three dimensional web which y they have sometimes . There are some spiders that live in like {disfmarker} that have like uh kind of a a big ball of a of a web . And uh the other thing is some spiders can actually uh fly like uh they have uh they let out like uh a stream of like the web building material but it's it acts like a parachute so they can actually kind of go and find new uh {disfmarker} build a new web somewhere else . So I think they did this in uh in Charlotte's Web that movie that little uh {disfmarker} well it's actually a book first but uh um at the end all the the spiders kinda flew away .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: So , that's my animal .
Project Manager: Th thank you . Very interesting . {vocalsound} Guillermo you want to ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} 'kay {vocalsound} I dunno why , but {vocalsound} when I was a child I I wanted to be a a panther
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} not a pink panther ,
Industrial Designer: But don't you think it's very difficult to draw a panther ?
Marketing: or maybe yes .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It would be very funny for us .
Marketing: Uh yeah yeah .
Industrial Designer: So bad I don't like it . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay it's a friendly panther .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Maybe it's happy 'cause it just ate someone .
Marketing: Yeah maybe {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um . Actually , honestly I I I dunno what's what's his it's be behaviour , I dunno if if it's the male who who hunts or it's the female uh , I I I have watched that lions di didn't hunt it's the the female lions who who hunt , so {disfmarker} but {vocalsound} I like it because it's fast , and it's black as well , so it can he {disfmarker} it can hide itself very easily and it's it's {disfmarker} it looks like um {vocalsound} powerful , strong , uh I dunno . I I watch a a film about a black panther when I was a child and {vocalsound} I was in that age when everything was shocking me a lot . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Thank you .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Hemant .
Industrial Designer: Um sure .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So you don't like pink panthers ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: I like it {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {gap} {gap}
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah . Thanks . This lapel is coming out once in a while . It's not very strong . Okay . So , not the favourite animal , but I think I'll draw elephant .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'll try to draw elephant {vocalsound} . It's a problem . Okay , thanks . Okay so , elephant goes like this , {gap} and then it has four feet {vocalsound} . I don't know whether there's any dist there should be any distance or not , but I think this is the easiest . And then we have it's trunk . And yep something like this {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: An eye , cute {vocalsound} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Poor elephant {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} and sometimes they have a hump . It seems that uh elephants are pretty friendly and they they have one very important way {disfmarker} a different way of walking . So when they walk , wherever they are going to put their first feet , the second feet will always be . When they'll come to that position the second , the third feet will be there . That's the way they walk . And that's very peculiar about them . None of the other animals walk like this . And they are very useful to human beings . At least few few hundred years ago when there was no means of transportations or something , or when they had to carry huge um loads from one place to another , elephants were very useful . And they are found in um usually the warm countries . And um they are the biggest terrestrial animal . That's what I know about them . So , that's what I wanted to tell about elephants .
User Interface: So is this uh an Indian or an African elephant , 'cause you haven't drawn the ears ?
Industrial Designer: There are two kind of uh yeah , they are very different , Indian and African elephants . So Indian elephant is having one bump , I think , and the African have two . And then there's a difference in the trunk of the animals , these elephants who are Indian and {disfmarker} So at some {disfmarker} for some elephants it's {disfmarker} the trunk is having one {disfmarker} Do we have some message there ?
Project Manager: Yes . We have to {disfmarker} I have to catch you ,
Industrial Designer: Wind up
Project Manager: sorry . We have to to go through the meeting .
Industrial Designer: ? Okay , some other time .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
Project Manager: Thank you {vocalsound} .
User Interface: We can discuss that off-line .
Project Manager: Yeah we'll discuss a f a fly or do {disfmarker} we'll do another meeting abo on elephants .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Thanks .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so another important part of the project is about money , uh and about {disfmarker} so about finances . So {vocalsound} we should target selling price of twenty-five Euro for this remote control and uh we have um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} which which would generate a profit of of um {vocalsound} fifty million Euros , okay . And we should target the inter an international market .
User Interface: So could I just ask one question , um is this a stand-alone unit that we're gonna be selling ? So it's gonna be you already have a T_V_ but you're buying an extra remote control for it or something ?
Project Manager: O this is the {vocalsound} next topic we have to discuss exactly ,
User Interface: Okay , alright .
Project Manager: so let's go to it . So um we should decide which kind of remote control we want to uh we want to uh we want to go . Should be should should it be um specific remote control to some specific device ? Should it be a universal one ? And uh etcetera . So um {vocalsound} so I'm waiting for your for your inputs very quickly because we have only three three minutes to go .
User Interface: Okay well , so , it seems the the first thing that they've kinda specified is the price like based on how much profit we wanna make , which seems to {disfmarker} a kind of a little strange if we don't know what the the product is yet , but I guess if that's {disfmarker} if that's the requirement that we need to to design the the product to actually fit that that price bracket so , I guess we're gonna need to find out what's actually {disfmarker} you know , what people ar are willing to pay for {disfmarker} um what kind of product they're expecting for twenty-five Euro
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: because it seems quite a lot for a remote control ,
Project Manager: Okay I think this is more a job to our
User Interface: so it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: market person yeah .
Industrial Designer: Marketing person .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So it should be the topic of maybe of the next meeting just to to have an overview of this and uh in which direction we should go .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So we need to close the meeting . Uh we'll have a new meeting soon and uh so {gap} the work every every of you ha have t d to do . So um you have to work on the on the working design , you have to uh work on the technical functions , and uh you have to work on us user requirements specs , alright ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um you will receive some information by emails , i as usual . Thanks for coming today .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Thanks .
Industrial Designer: Thanks .
User Interface: Alright .
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doc_61
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Project Manager: Okay . Um welcome to our second meeting . This is the functional design meeting . And I hope you all had a good individual working time . Okay , let's get started . Okay , here's the agenda for the meeting . After the opening um I am going to fulfil the role of secretary , take the meeting minutes . And we're gonna have three presentations , one from each of you . Then we're gonna discuss some new project requirements . Um gonna come to a decision on the functions of the remote control . And then we're gonna close up the meeting . And we're gonna do this all in about forty minutes . {gap} Okay . First I want to discuss the goals of this meeting . First we need to determine the user requirements and the question that we can ask ourselves is what needs and desires are to be fulfilled by this remote control . And then we're going to determine the technical functions , what is the effect of the apparatus , what actually is it supposed to do , what do people pick up the remote and use it for . And then lastly we're going to determine its working design , how exactly will it perform its functions , that's the whole technical side of {disfmarker} 'Kay I'll just give you a minute , 'cause it looks like you're making some notes .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'Kay . Oh , well let's go ahead and ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} back , previous .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So what I wanna do right now is hear from all three of you , on your research that you just did . Who would like to start us off ? 'Kay .
User Interface: I don't mind going first .
Project Manager: Okay . Um do you have a PowerPoint or no ?
User Interface: Yeah , it's in the {disfmarker} should be in the m Project .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Do you want us to do our PowerPoints now or {disfmarker}
User Interface: You know you could you could do it yourself actually .
Project Manager: Oh .
Industrial Designer: Did you send it ?
Project Manager: Save it in the project documents .
User Interface: Put it in Project Documents ,
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-mm-mm . This one ?
User Interface: Sure . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Great .
User Interface: Okay . Um well , the function {vocalsound} of a remote control , as what uh we've been informed , is basically to send messages to the television set , for example , switch it on , switch it off , go to this channel , go to channel nine , turn the volume up , etcetera . Um some of the considerations is just um for example the what it needs to include it's the numbers , you know , zero to nine , so you can move to a channel , the power button on slash off , the channel going up and down , volume going up and down , and then mute , a mute function . And then functions for V_H_S_ , D_V_D_ , for example , play , rewind , fast-forward , stop , pause , enter . And enter would be for like , you know , the menus . {vocalsound} And then other menus for D_V_ as well as T_V_ , whether that means like um we can go and decide the brightness of the screen , things like that , all the more complicated functions of menus .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: And we can decide if that's what we want , {gap} , um if we want to include that on the remote , if that's something that would stay on the T_V_ itself , for example .
Project Manager: Okay . Okay .
User Interface: These are two examples . Um and you can see on the left , it's got a lot more buttons ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and I don't know if you can read it , but it says , step , go to , freeze , um slow , repeat , program , mute , and so those are some of the buttons and so it gives you an idea of s one example . And then on the right , it's a lot more simpler , it's got volume , it's got the play the like circle set , which is play , rewind , but it's also what is {disfmarker} fast-forward is also like next on a menu . So you have functions that are d uh duplicating .
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: And you have a mute button and then the numbers and the eject , and the power button . So that gives you two different kinds , a more complex and more simple version . Okay .
Project Manager: Ready .
User Interface: And then lastly , it's just the questions that we want to consider like what functions do we want it to include , and how simple , complex it should be ? And what functions it needs to complete . Uh , what are needed to complete insulation process , 'cause , you know , that's something that also has to be considered and it's gonna be hopefully a one-time thing , when you set it up it should be set to go , but we have to include the functions that can allow it to set up i in the first place .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: So that's it .
Project Manager: Alright . Very good presentation . Thank you . You speak with such authority on the matter .
User Interface: Mm . Left .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . Who would like to um follow that one up ? Now , that we've discussed {disfmarker}
Marketing: I can go .
Project Manager: Okay . Do you want me to run it or you wanna {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , you should run it .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Functional requirements .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm yes .
Project Manager: 'Kay . Alright . Now we have Courtney with the functional requirements .
Marketing: Yes , okay so we tested a hundred subjects in our lab , and we just we watched them and we also made them fill out a questionnaire , and we found that the {vocalsound} users are not typically happy with current remote controls . Seventy five percent think they're ugly . Eighty percent want {disfmarker} they've {disfmarker} are willing to spend more , which is good news for us um if we make it look fancier , and basically w we just need something that really I mean there's some other points up there , but they {disfmarker} it needs to be snazzy and it {disfmarker} but yet simple .
User Interface: {gap} Wait .
Marketing: So that's really what we need to do . And we need we need it to be simple , yet it needs to be high-tech looking . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: And that meaning what ?
Marketing: Like {disfmarker} They like I guess use the buttons a lot .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: I don't know . It's from my uh research .
Project Manager: Okay , what do you m
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: My team wasn't very clear .
Project Manager: Oh , I'm sorry .
User Interface: Only use ten percent of the buttons .
Project Manager: What do you mean by um the current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user , like they have to press the buttons .
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's okay . I I think it's like the engineering versus user ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: whereas like the engineering she showed that the engineering ones are more complex
Project Manager: Oh , right .
Marketing: and users don't really need all of the buttons that are contained on there , because they only use ten percent of the buttons really .
Project Manager: The buttons . Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay .
Industrial Designer: We only use ten per cent of our brains . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Good point .
Project Manager: It works .
Marketing: It's a necessary evil .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Ready for the next slide ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} And so people say that they typically lose it , as you yourself know , because you probably lose your remote control all the time ,
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: much like any small appliance like a cellphone ,
User Interface: Lost .
Marketing: and they {disfmarker} we need something simple , because most people , well thirty four percent say that it's just too much time to learn how to use a new one , and we don't want to go {disfmarker} we don't want to vary too far from the normal standard remote ,
User Interface: S
Marketing: but I mean they do need to be able to identify it , and R_S_I_ , I'm not very sure what that is .
Project Manager: It's okay . It's very important . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yes , it is important for the remote control world .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wait , is that like your {disfmarker} ergonomics like your hand movements or something ?
Marketing: Sh
Project Manager: Could be , yeah .
Marketing: Uh possibly .
Industrial Designer: Do we really need t to provide more information on what R_S_I_ is ?
User Interface: Like {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh .
Marketing: Uh yeah , that's what my web site said , I
User Interface: Channel , volume , power .
Project Manager: I think that's a pretty good guess though .
Marketing: don't know .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , I would assume so .
User Interface: It's like if you're holding it {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think we're supposed to know it as remote control experts .
Project Manager: Yeah . It's okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} But also s so the channel , the volume and the power buttons are the most important on our company website you can find like the specific statistics concerning to how much each button is used , but those are the definitely the top ones .
Project Manager: Okay . Next slide ?
Marketing: Yes . And so personally I think that we need a modern eye-catching design , but it it really needs to be simple . So saying from y your slide , your presentation , the engineering versus the user-specified remotes , I think that we should go with something that's more user-friendly .
Project Manager: User-friendly .
Marketing: Where the engineering ones , the boxes , tend to make it look more complicated than it really is . Um the functionality of the product really needs to be considered as to like what type of buttons do we really need on it . And it needs to be open to a wide range of consumers , so even though we need a small number of buttons , we also need to take in {disfmarker} like are most people going to be using it for a D_V_D_ player , a TiVo , what what exactly are we using it for , as well as the age range . So we need a hip , but not a corny marketing scheme for promoting our product .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: And also we found {disfmarker} our team found that speech recognition is {disfmarker} it's like an up-and-coming thing they really {disfmarker} consumers are really interested in it , and since our findings found that people are willing to pay more money for a remote for it to be more high-class we could consider it .
Project Manager: And so just to {disfmarker} just to clarify by speech recognition you mean they would say , channel five , and the thing would go to channel five ?
Marketing: I guess so , yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {gap} to just say , where are you , and thing beeps , you know . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh , that'd be lovely .
Marketing: Yeah , I guess we can interpret it like , we can just try out different types of speech recognition within our remote programme .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Didn't they {disfmarker} um didn't our rival companies manufacture a remote that you would press the button on the T_V_ and it would {disfmarker} the remote would beep so if you have lost it {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's kinda like what the remote phone used to do .
Project Manager: Mm . Oh , yeah , that's true .
User Interface: You know like go to the base .
Project Manager: We could definitely include that if we wanted to .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: If it's within our price . Okay . Are we ready for our last presentation , Amber ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I'm just trying to move it .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay . I think it should be there , working design .
User Interface: Working design .
Project Manager: There we go .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay . Uh I didn't get a chance to complete this one , 'cause some of the tools that I was given were frustrating .
Project Manager: Oh my bad . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh that's fine .
Industrial Designer: Uh okay , so method method of our design , I think I just start listing th some of the things that we actually need to put into this .
User Interface: Help me .
Industrial Designer: We need a power source , we're gonna need a smart chip if we're gonna make it multi-functional . Um extra functions will probably need an additional chip . Either that or the smart chip will have to be extremely smart .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: What exactly is a smart chip ?
Industrial Designer: Usually a smart chip is just a chip that's been programmed and designed so that it can complete a fair range of functions .
User Interface: Well , how much extra would the additional chip be ? Is that gonna push us over our production costs ?
Industrial Designer: I wouldn't think so , 'cause we could probably get it from like , in bulk , from a a newer company . And they tend to sell their chips pretty cheap .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay . Ready ?
Industrial Designer: Um yep , nothing here .
Project Manager: That's okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um power source , I figured , batteries , 'cause they're easily available . Typically a remote has either two double A_s or four triple A_s , sometimes three . Uh it really kinda depends on the size of the actual remote itself .
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Um a large on-off button , {vocalsound} demographically we're moving towards an older generation of people , so a large on-off button would probably be good .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap}
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Selection button for various entertainment devices , so you want something that will permit you to select the D_V_D_ player or the T_V_ or the stereo system . Um smart chip that perverts {disfmarker} uh that permits , sorry , universal application again , something that'll allow us to skip over between devices , and that's kinda it .
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Uh this is my fifty second design .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Power source over here . We're gonna have a switch obviously between the power source and the rest of it , and you're gonna need the switch . Um extra bulb could just be for flashiness , um subcomponent which would be like a way of diverting the power to different parts of the the device . Um the chip and of course the infra-red bulb , so it can communicate with the various devices that it needs to talk to .
Marketing: So what exactly we are looking at , is this like the front of the remote ?
Industrial Designer: This is just like a rough schematic .
Project Manager: So this would be the front ?
Industrial Designer: So this is the internal workings .
Project Manager: So the red would be the front of the remote though , right ?
Marketing: Oh okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah , that's gonna be what's communicating with the T_V_ , but the other bulb , I think , is good to just to indicate , I'm doing something , it's sort of like a reassurance .
Project Manager: The l {vocalsound} the light up kind of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , so you don't have to stare at that infra-red ,
Marketing: Like that we know the battery's working .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: 'cause you know when the battery starts dying in your remote currently , you have to actually stare at that bulb and go , okay , when I push this button , is it working ?
Project Manager: Hmm . It'd probably be lighting up the key too ,
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: We can skip that whole thing .
Project Manager: right ?
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So you can put it in the dark . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The buttons .
Marketing: Yeah , and that's good .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: We should make it glow in the dark . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , definitely . 'Kay nex R Ready ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's it .
Project Manager: 'Kay , any p 'Kay ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm 'kay .
Project Manager: Anything you wanna add for personal preferences though , you f you said already that we needed a large on-off button , you think . Anything else ?
Industrial Designer: I think that that's a good idea , because you know that's one of the most important buttons .
User Interface: Just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Well , should it be larger buttons in general , you know like uh the examples that I had , they were swi quite small . So should we try and go for something that has l larger buttons ?
Marketing: I think we should . Like I think that would be in a as in {disfmarker} like in {disfmarker} for the design , sorry , um . I think we should definitely go with buttons that don't look like a normal remote , 'cause most remotes have small square buttons ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: I think we should do something like maybe bigger and round like bubbles .
User Interface: Ovals . Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Okay , let's talk about all of our {disfmarker} We'll come to decision later about all the components that we need to include , let's um wrap up this one , and {vocalsound} I'm gonna go back to my PowerPoint , 'cause we need to discuss the new project requirements which you might've already seen flashed up on the screen a bit earlier . {vocalsound} Wait , come back . Alright . Sorry , let's go through this . Alright . Here we go . New product requirements . First it's only going to be a T_V_ remote . We're trying not to over-complicate things . So no D_V_D_ , no TiVo , no stereo .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: It's not gonna be multi-functional .
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Hey . And we th need to promote our company more , so we need to somehow include our colour and our company slogan on the remote . We're trying to get our name out there in the world . Okay .
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: And you know what teletext is ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {gap} in States we don't have it , but um it's like they just have this channel where just has news and weather , kind of sports ,
User Interface: I know .
Marketing: What is it ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it's very um bland looking , it's just text on the screen ,
User Interface: Yeah ,
Project Manager: not even {disfmarker}
User Interface: it's like black , black and white kind of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , just black with just text .
Marketing: Like running along the bottom ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You can also get the kind of the T_V_ guide so {disfmarker}
User Interface: It'll give you the sports .
Marketing: Wait , is it like the Weather Channel where it's got like the ticker running on the bottom or something ?
Project Manager: Kind of .
User Interface: Except the entire screen .
Project Manager: Yeah it's the whole screen .
Industrial Designer: It's the entire screen is just running information at random .
Project Manager: So anyway {disfmarker}
User Interface: You can pick sports , you can pick the news , you entertainment ,
Industrial Designer: Seemingly .
User Interface: you know it's like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: So it's like a separate channel from like what you're watching ?
Project Manager: Right . But it's becoming out-dated now , because of the Internet .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Nobody needs to go to the teletext channel to check the news , {vocalsound} and we have twenty four hour news channels now too , so {disfmarker} Those are our new product requirements . Alright . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So , do we have to include the company colour within that ?
Project Manager: Yes . It's part of the logo . Okay .
User Interface: Company colour being yellow . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What we're going to do right now is come to some decisions , definitive that we can all agree on , about um the target group and the functions and just definite things that we need to do and then we'll close up the meeting . So . Alright . {gap} Whatever . Okay . So our target group is {disfmarker} You mentioned um older people ? Would it just be universal for everyone , you think ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Because I think even if something has large buttons , as long as they are not childishly large , like even technically {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's gonna make it nicer . Yeah .
Project Manager: non-technically challenged people are gonna use it . I mean they want something user-friendly , so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm well , even if we kept the regular standard size of remote , if we reduced the buttons down to the ones that people are saying that they use the most often and a couple extra ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: 'cause they're saying they only use ten per cent of them ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: then we should be able to accommodate fairly decent sized buttons .
Project Manager: Okay , so we want um for our target group would we say , I mean , young and old , all age ranges , all um , not kids obviously , right ? Or kids ?
Marketing: No , kids need to know how to use a remote , I would think .
Industrial Designer: Most of them will intuitively pick it up though .
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: They gotta change between Disney Channel , Cartoon Network .
Project Manager: Okay , so we're going to go anywhere from kids to adult in the age range {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , I think we need it all .
Project Manager: Um what about technic technical um specifications , like how how technically literate are these people who are going to be using our remote ?
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Um I would say we should say dumber than the average person .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: We should go for the lowest denominator .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Right , okay . So so they need no technical experience to operate {disfmarker}
User Interface: High school educated .
Industrial Designer: {gap} how 'bout little to no , because there is no way that you are gonna be able to make it no .
Project Manager: Okay . And we also need to determine the specific functions of this , just to get it all out on paper . So we said it needs to send messages to the T_V_ , needs to change the channel , turn on and off , just basic simple stuff like this . So if you have something just say it and we'll add it to my meeting minutes .
User Interface: Well it's channel , on-off button , volume , mute .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , volume .
Marketing: And channel . Yeah . Those are the most important ones .
Project Manager: Right . And we wanna keep um {disfmarker} I'll make a note here that we wanna keep the number of buttons down . Correct , because people only use ten percent .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: 'Kay . Hey , what else ?
User Interface: Um .
Project Manager: Um .
Industrial Designer: Do we want this thing to be able to be found easily ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think so . What do you {disfmarker}
Marketing: Sure , yeah .
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: A finding kind of device or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And
Marketing: I need {disfmarker} we we need a like homing device .
Project Manager: Yeah , ho homing device . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: like if this is gonna get lost underneath the coach , how are we going to accommodate the quick ability to find it ?
User Interface: Oh right yeah okay .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: Tracking .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Because people really are looking for a remote that's more high-tech .
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: What if we gave it a charger ? And on the charger , just like a phone , like you get a portable phone and it's got a charger , and if you d leave your phone somewhere , you push the button to find it , and it finds th the phone beeps for you .
User Interface: But you got a base .
Marketing: Do you think people'll really go for that though ?
Industrial Designer: It's useful for the remote phone .
Marketing: Because {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Would that add to our costs at all , I wonder ?
Marketing: I would think so , because you'd have to develop a base .
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: Well , if you have the base , you could start putting in a charger and then you have a different kind of battery .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Rechargeable batteries are cheaper usually .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . I I think we can make a decision about that later . Uh we'll still put that as a point that we need to discuss . So that would include battery source {disfmarker} Power source rather . Is it going to have a charger , or is it going to be run strictly off batteries ? And we also need to deal with the issue you mentioned of speech recognition , if we want that .
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: Well , then we could {disfmarker}
Marketing: Do w
User Interface: If we have the speech recognition then we can start aiming at a like another kind of more handicapped disabled uh demo demographic .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Well , th there's the people who desire speech recognition , there's the different demog demographics have different desires , I don't know if you guys ge
Project Manager: You could um {disfmarker} we could hook it up .
Marketing: It wouldn't copy onto the the thing 'cause it's black ,
Project Manager: Oh .
Marketing: but all the different age groups have different desires for speech recognition . So {vocalsound} basically older people don't really care .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: It's really the people twenty five to thirty five . I feel those are the people that really watch a lot of T_V_ though .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: They're the ones that get addicted to soap operas and
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And if and if we introduced it when they're this age , they're going to probably always buy a remote that has {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: just sitcoms and stuff . Right .
User Interface: Well , then then do you put the voice recognition {disfmarker} do you put the r like receiver on the actual television , in the base , or in the actual remote ,
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: 'cause then you've already got remote in your hand , why you just gonna speak to the remote ,
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: whereas if you just speak in general and you don't have to have the remote in your hand and like talk at it .
Project Manager: Yeah . {gap} and the speech recognition could be part of the lost and found device , too . If we said , find remote , locate remote , or something .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: A certain phrase then it could beep . I dunno . Just throwing it out there .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Still {gap} fifteen minutes .
Project Manager: Okay , anything else we wanna discuss ?
User Interface: Um . Well , do we wanna include the numbers like zero through nine ? Can we conceive of leaving them out ?
Project Manager: Um .
Marketing: Wait , on the remote itself ?
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Yeah , like you have one , two , three , four , five , six , seven , eight , nine , zero .
Project Manager: How how ,
Marketing: Well , we definitely need those .
Project Manager: yeah , how would you leave those out ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Well , I don't know , I mean , if you can {gap} like well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Unless you could say the channel .
User Interface: I don't know , if there's just a way of leaving them out ?
Industrial Designer: I think people would find that too foreign .
Project Manager: Yeah , that's true .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: And also remember that in this day in age we need , you know , like a hundred button , too .
Marketing: You definitely need {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I used to have a remote that did not even go up past like fifty . {vocalsound} So I couldn't {disfmarker} whenever I got cable , I had to get a new T_V_ .
Industrial Designer: It's when we get satellite .
Project Manager: Mm . {gap} get your own remote , or digital cable .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: 'Kay . Um . I guess , we're gonna discuss the project financing later , making sure that we can fit all of the stuff that we want to on our budget . Um .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , 'cause I don't have any material pricing information available to me at the moment , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: 'Kay . And don't forget we need to include the colour of our company and the logo .
User Interface: The colour being yellow ?
Marketing: Wait .
Project Manager: I'm guessing . And the R_R_ .
User Interface: And how do we {disfmarker}
Marketing: I feel like a ye I feel like a yellow one would be too garish .
Industrial Designer: R_ the double R_ .
Project Manager: We could just have the logo in yellow ,
User Interface: Can't make it entirely {disfmarker}
Project Manager: or maybe a yellow light for the keys .
Industrial Designer: Or is the l
Marketing: Or put like stripes , oh yeah , yellow lights .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , {vocalsound} yellow could be and it could {disfmarker} doesn't have to be huge .
User Interface: Well if you have like a {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Hang on . If you have this sort of strip kind of down at the bottom {gap} the base of it , just like yellow with the R_R_ .
Project Manager: Right . So we've simplified , we don't need all those um play , fast-forward , rewind ,
User Interface: Right , yeah .
Project Manager: or no menu buttons .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So we've pretty much pared it down to on-off , volume , mute , channel up and down , um the numbers {disfmarker} Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um can we go back to {disfmarker} I'm gonna look really quickly back at those
User Interface: Two examples .
Project Manager: examples and see if there is anything .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Which one is yours , technical functions or functional requirement ?
User Interface: Oh , it's a {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah , audi audio settings and screen settings , we need those like audio settings mono , stereo , pitch , screen settings like brightness , colour , or do we just want that accessed accessed from the television itself ?
Project Manager: The T_V_ . I think that that's fine just for the T_V_ . I mean how often does the average user need to do that kind of stuff ?
User Interface: Well , the other option is sort of like down at the bottom , like farther away , you just have this sort of box inset where it's like the buttons that you don't use as much , but occasionally you will use .
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: and so it's like {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , 'cause we need to {disfmarker} we definitely need to have buttons for like sub-titles and things like that . It's 'cause the foreign film market is expanding and stuff , and like on television like I know f k living in Los Angeles it's tons of Spanish network television if it has English sub-titles it's definitely helpful .
Project Manager: Couldn't we do that all through one button , something , a menu button , that pops up with a menu on the T_V_ that says , you know , audio , video , whatever , language ,
User Interface: I don't {disfmarker} well , I don't know .
Project Manager: you know ?
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: So we need up , down , and side-to-side buttons .
Project Manager: For the menus .
User Interface: Well , that could be {disfmarker} No you could just double up with like the channel or the volume buttons .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: That's true .
User Interface: Channel is just up and down .
Marketing: Yeah , okay . Okay , yeah .
User Interface: And then add a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Something that looks mayb you know .
Marketing: Such as , yeah , the one the one over there on the left the engineering centred one .
Project Manager: Y right , right right right .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: That one ?
User Interface: So we just have it like {disfmarker} add a menu button then for the various things needed ,
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: including v voice recognition if we have any like settings for voice recognition now
Project Manager: In the middle perhaps .
User Interface: included in the menu .
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: Ooh , I just got an idea for a design .
Project Manager: {gap} good . Anybody have anything else they'd like to bring up in this meeting ?
Industrial Designer: I had something , but I forgot .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . {gap} get out of here . Let's go back to the meeting closure then and see what we need to do next . Mm . Alright . After this meeting we're gonna be sent a questionnaire and summary again which we need to reply to that e-mail . And then we're gonna have lunch break . And after lunch thirty minutes of individual work time . Um I'm gonna put the minutes {disfmarker} I put the minutes for the first meeting already in the project documents folder , if you'd like to review them . And I'm gonna type up the minutes for this one as well . Um here's what we're each going to do . The I_D_ is going to work on the components concept , um U_I_D_ the user interface concept , and you're going to do some trend watching . 'Kay . Specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach . And if anybody has anything they would like to add ? No ? Okay , well , this meeting is officially over . Thank you all .
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Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please?
Darren Millar AM: Yes, I have a declaration of interest, Chair. I understand that my daughter features in one of the videos that is going to be used to contribute evidence to this inquiry. And, in addition, I'm a governor of one of the schools that features in the video.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Darren. So, item 2, then, today is our first session on the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils, which is a video of interviews with young people and teachers. The committee team has been out to take video evidence around Wales, and we're now going to watch the results of that on the screen. Okay. Well, I'm sure that the committee would want me to place on record our thanks to the young people and the teachers who took part in that very helpful and informative video. We'll move on now then to our evidence session, and I'm very pleased to welcome Gareth Pierce, chief executive of the WJEC, Mike Ebbsworth, assistant director educational support, WJEC, Philip Blaker, chief executive of Qualifications Wales, and Emyr George, associate director general qualifications at Qualifications Wales. So, thank you all of you for attending and thank you for the papers that you provided in advance as well. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions now, and if I can just start by asking you to outline what you see as your role in ensuring that students and teachers in Wales have the resources that they need to pass general qualifications and what you think the role of commercial publishers and Welsh Government is.
Philip Blaker: Shall I start? So, Qualifications Wales is the regulator of the awarding bodies, so we regulate awarding bodies. Our powers are structured around the regulating of awarding bodies. We don't regulate commercial publishers nor the provision of textbooks within that. In regulating the awarding body, our primary focus is also on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment. So, it's much more around the assessment side than teaching resources. That said, when we are going through the design of the qualifications, we go through an approval process, so we develop approval criteria and we ask WJEC to submit their specifications against those approval criteria and sample assessment materials as well. So, our focus is very much on making sure that teachers are able, through the sample assessment materials and the specifications, to have a good understanding of what is going to be expected of them in the examinations and of their pupils in the examinations. So, that's setting out the knowledge, skills and understandings that will be assessed by WJEC when those exams are sat. We have in the past pulled together groups of people to look at issues like resources. So, during the last round of approvals, we pulled together interested parties in Welsh Government, regional consortia and WJEC to look at resources that would be available with a view to facilitating the discussion about who would be best placed to fill the gaps where there may be perceived to be gaps in resources. Our other primary role is in maintaining standards. So, as the regulator of qualifications, what we want to do is we want to make that the awards of qualifications—so, the grades that people get—are fair. One of the things we do is set out the way in which the awarding bodies will set grades—so, the awarding process, the methods that will be used—and then we monitor WJEC's award of grades against those processes. During a period of change, we prescribe the use of comparable outcomes as the primary approach, largely because comparable outcomes are designed for circumstances like this, where there's a change in a specification particularly, because there are any number of reasons, including resources, why performance may be different from one year to the next, but comparable outcomes is there to ensure that, all things being equal, if the cohorts have the same ability, the same grade should be awarded from one year to the next. We do recognise that there have been delays in textbooks. Much of that has been related to the timelines that we've all had to deliver new specifications against, which have been far from ideal for everybody involved. We think that particularly our role moving forward will be looking at the timelines for reforms that will be necessary for the new curriculum to make sure that this situation isn't repeated and that there is sufficient time in future reforms to allow for greater system readiness. In terms of the roles of others, Welsh Government have a role at the moment in terms of grant funding of translation of materials into Welsh medium. And there is, through the common model at the moment—and this is a model that is common between England and Wales—a reliance on commercial publishers to provide textbooks. Now, that's something that probably needs to be looked at in the future in terms of potential different models for how that might be achieved and also, potentially, around a paradigm shift in what's expected of those materials. So, I think that sets out Qualification Wales's position in particular.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Gareth.
Gareth Pierce: Thank you very much. The WJEC does provide what's required in a regulatory sense, and there are two things there—the specification, which tends to be very comprehensive in providing guidance in terms of drawing up a programme of teaching, and also exemplar assessments, which include marking, and those go to the regulator before they are published. So, those samples go to the regulator. The WJEC also do invest a great deal in resources that we produce digitally in both languages simultaneously. Each new course has substantial teaching guidance, which includes a great deal of useful information for teachers and pupils. And we run a professional development programme for teachers that is free of charge when courses are new, and then annually there is some charge for those events. They are face-to-face events, or, increasingly, they are webinars. The WJEC also encourages publishers to take an interest in providing textbooks. We don't have a commercial agreement with publishers. Indeed, the regulations as they stand in Wales, Northern Ireland and England preclude examination bodies from having commercial links with providers of textbooks, but that is something that emerges from the three-nation regime that existed in terms of qualifications. So, that is one point that we noted as something that needs to be considered for Wales as we move forward, whether it would be possible—. As we are not talking about examination boards competing with each other in Wales for GCSE and A-levels, in passing, that is something that I would want to suggest may deserve review. We encourage publishers to take an interest. At the moment, these tend to be England-based—Hodder Education and Illuminate Education, for example—and then the Welsh Government does provide funding to the WJEC to support the process of providing Welsh-language versions for those textbooks. So, we use that funding to provide editorial support to the process, and also to pay for translation costs, and we give significant guidance in terms of terminology. We have a language services team including excellent editors and translators within the WJEC, and we work closely with external translators too, and we use translation technology increasingly, which facilitates a great many things. Beyond that, I think the WJEC does see the need for flexibility, particularly when difficulties arise, and you heard there of some of the methods used by Mike and others to get digital resources available earlier than the print versions. And I should also note perhaps that, as the WJEC is very much involved with stakeholders, we feel that we do have a contribution to make in terms of ideas for the future.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We heard in the video that teachers are spending a lot of their time actually translating materials. What is your view on that as a good use of teachers' time in Wales?
Gareth Pierce: I think the question of translation is an interesting one. There was talk about pupils translating and teachers translating. I think perhaps we need to understand what causes the need for that because, as I mentioned earlier, there are so many resources available digitally in both languages at the same time. Perhaps an interesting question is: is that source useful for teachers, being able to draw resources from two sources? Another interesting question, I think, is—. The Welsh language, of course, is a language that is used in an educational context, but we are in a big world that's an English language world. I'm very aware that many of the websites we refer to in our resources and many of the case studies, as was mentioned in that video—they are available in English only. Therefore, I think another interesting question is: can we discover what those additional resources are that are worth translating? And, certainly, it would be very unfortunate if there were a dozen Welsh-medium schools, for example, translating material from the same website independently of each other. If there are a few websites, or a few case studies, in this big external digital world that are worth translating, shouldn't we able to source those early? Because I don't think it's a good use of teachers' time. But I also think that the use of both languages is an interesting one. What is the vision in terms of teaching in a Welsh-medium class, in particular, perhaps, in the A-level classes? I'm sure that some teachers feel that there is a way of enriching the teaching by referring to terms in both languages, as well as explaining those terms in their own language. But the impression I got from the video was that there was quite a lot of mechanical translating happening, and perhaps there is a need to understand more of the context.
Lynne Neagle AM: Llyr on this.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just to pick up on your point on the additional materials, whose role would it be to asses this or to take that overview, and then to respond to the demand?
Gareth Pierce: Mike, in the WJEC, has conversations about resources in the team he's part of.
Mike Ebbsworth: Yes. That is extremely important—to identify, as Gareth has just said, those materials that need to be translated, and not everything needs to. We've made a lot of use recently of speaking with teachers and the consortia, and ensuring then that we are focusing on those things that need that attention.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But would you—? The question I'm asking is: would you still see that as a core part of your work, although it's not necessarily essential in terms of the provision that you're required to provide?
Gareth Pierce: Yes, we invest substantially from the WJEC budget into digital resources. So, through the types of conversations that Mike mentioned, in terms of identifying needs, deciding on priorities with teachers in individual subject areas, that can provide very useful information for us in terms of prioritisation. Of course, the digital packages that we create are already based on conversations with teachers.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, it's already happening to a certain extent.
Gareth Pierce: Well, yes, but we could always go a step further.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: And do we need further resources for that?
Gareth Pierce: Well, it's an interesting question. The WJEC is doing as much as we can—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Why isn't it happening to the extent that it needs to happen, then?
Gareth Pierce: One can always do more, of course. The WJEC is trying to use its budget prudently, and most of our funding comes from payments made by schools and colleges in terms of taking assessments. So, we do have a budget, but it's not a bottomless pit. So, we do need to make choices within the substantial budget we have in terms of the work that Mike is undertaking.
Mike Ebbsworth: There is a need to be careful as well in identifying resources and needs, and that those are suited towards the requirements. Quite often a teacher—and I've been a teacher myself—has this idea that there is a need to have everything. But, certainly, that's not always the case. Quite often, the focus is on different things. There has been a move towards different means of assessment over recent years, and we've moved our resources towards that to meet the needs of teachers on how to undertake that sort of assessment.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Did you want to come in on any of this?
Philip Blaker: I'm just going to say one thing. Teachers will want to be creative in the use of resources, and, in doing that, they'll potentially want to adapt resources from either language. I think one of the things that we would be quite keen to try and establish moving forward is what is the common core that should by default be available bilingually, and then what sits around that that would be for schools to use creatively and adapt. And what I wouldn't want to see is a default position where all materials were bilingual—a wide range of resources that might be created from all sorts of diverse, different channels—because that may inhibit the creation of some of those materials that may be more creative, which could then be used by teachers as they see appropriate. But I think it is reasonable to expect for that core, common body of knowledge to be available bilingually by default, and for teachers not to have to spend time translating that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. A final question from me, then. The £500,000 funding for Welsh-medium educational resource that's in the budget for 2018-19—are you able to share any information with the committee as to how that's going to be spent?
Gareth Pierce: Tthe WJEC has some information in terms of that budget. It is a Welsh Government budget, and they have annual discussions with us as to what resources we are likely to be working on along with publishers, and where we would like to make a claim against that grant to pay for the editorial and translation costs that we will have incurred. Now, there have been conversations recently about possible support from that grant for some research work into the use of various materials and resources, and also, although this would be a very small part, a contribution towards seminars for publishers. But that isn't a full picture of the £500,000; I think you would have to ask the Welsh Government about the exact allocation of that total fund. But there may be some flexibility. We've just started this financial year; I'm sure there is some flexibility in their thinking in terms of the use of some of this resource. Do you want to add anything, Mike?
Mike Ebbsworth: Certainly. We have contributed a list of publications, for example, that are ongoing, and they're aware of that, and a percentage of that funding then will go towards ensuring that those are there through the medium of Welsh.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Darren Millar.
Darren Millar AM: This is a huge mess, isn't it? It's a huge mess, which is causing lots of pressure and extra work for teachers, lots of pressure and extra work for learners, and is affecting the well-being of students, at a time when they need to be mentally fit, in order to go through the general stress that learners face when they have exams coming up. We know that the problems are not confined to Welsh-medium resources; they're also being experienced in English language resources as well, particularly in terms of the availability of textbooks. You've both mentioned—both of your organisations have mentioned that there needs to be some sort of common core of resources available for learners and teachers, and I would agree with you on that front. But isn't a textbook a pretty basic element of anybody's toolkit for supporting a child getting through the information that they need to learn, and swot up on, in advance of exams?
Gareth Pierce: I think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently. And I agree that a textbook is part of the picture that should be available. But I think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them; perhaps the teacher uses them. There is an emphasis, for example, from one pupil there, on that traditional model of revision, namely class notes and his own revision notes, but that he personally also wanted a textbook. So, certainly, the content of a textbook is going to be important, and that that's available in some form or other. It was very interesting to know, for example, that when he was describing the traditional model of revision, he felt that he'd had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes. Much of that digital content, of course, corresponds to the content areas of a textbook, but it's just in a different form. But, in general, there should be a textbook. And some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers don't always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time. That doesn't happen so often in English medium, but we know about that gap in time in the Welsh provision.
Darren Millar AM: Well, it's happened fairly regularly in the English-medium textbook world, hasn't it? My daughter—she featured in that video—has got her RS qualifications coming up, and she only had a textbook over the Easter period. I mean, it's completely unacceptable. And many others in that video are also being affected. You mentioned digital resources; not everybody's got access to digital resources in their own homes, even, in Wales. So, aren't we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional 'swotting up from a textbook' method of revision and benefit from that?
Mike Ebbsworth: We do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print. Most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use, to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time. But certainly there are materials there. If there are activities, then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home. So, I would be sceptical about that comment. We are thinking of the totality, ultimately.
Gareth Pierce: I think you're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture. The young people talk about websites and blogs, and we're talking about digital resources, so being able to reach those resources, I think, is vital in Wales. It's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters. One praises what's available digitally, whereas another teaching organisation sees this as more work for teachers. As Mike said, we've created those resources that can be adapted. One teaching organisation says that it just creates more work, while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable. Of course, the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that, in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables, we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later, but available digitally at an early stage. But I agree with your core comment that technology is vital, and access to that, and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well.
Darren Millar AM: Mr Blaker, you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification.
Philip Blaker: I think we wouldn't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks, recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources. I think what I'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model, which is very much around the fact that every time there's a change in a specification, there's a new textbook, which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body, which is a nice model for a publisher, because every time there's a change, there's an opportunity for a new textbook. There are two concerns that I'd like to raise on that. First, the focus on teaching and learning. Ofsted and also Estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations. I have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency. And also, there's the sustainability of the model. We know that we're about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change. That's going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications. I think I'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than, perhaps, the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest.
Darren Millar AM: So, you don't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations.
Emyr George: I'd just like to pick you up on that. I think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer, but on a subject, perhaps, rather than a specific specification, because I think there's a tendency to conflate the two, and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification, or a new updated specification, will remain unchanged. It is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis, or a different style of questioning, but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources, for example, which can highlight that change, particularly to a teacher, so that they can shape their lesson planning around that. What we are looking at here are reformed GCSEs and reformed A-levels in subjects that are well-established, traditional subjects, and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal, I think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources, including textbooks, out there in schools already. We're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in. I think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and didn't contain any extraneous material, but that perhaps is an ideal picture and I think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students.
Darren Millar AM: But of course, unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the UK, we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they're appropriate for use in the classroom, given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications. Can I just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks? Mr Blaker, I note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the WJEC in terms of the outcome of assessments, and I think that that's a very positive thing. But, how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning, traditional sort of swotting up for examinations, versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources—? How do you make sure that it's fair to the cohort as a whole, while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort?
Philip Blaker: The systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort. It's very difficult—in fact, it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance, because you could well have a textbook that's been available for some time, it may be somebody's preferred leaning style to use a textbook, but did they use that textbook effectively? You know, did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision? So, there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance. I think it's impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources. Motivation would be one thing, an individual learner's motivation in the subject. The biggest input would be the quality of teaching. I think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia, which we saw yesterday. They particularly wanted to stress this point I think; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner's ultimate performance in the examination.
Darren Millar AM: I understand that, but you also understand that someone who doesn't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom, perhaps, textbooks are less important.
Gareth Pierce: I think also, perhaps, related to that, it is important to mention digital literacy here. Every young person in Wales, I would hope, taking GCSE or A-level, should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills. Then, they have the choice whether they go down the digital route, or do they do as Mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks, in the hope that those would be available? That would then allow for a pupil's personal learning choice to be reflected. It's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils. Not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way. So, the flexibility for the pupil is very important, I think.
Darren Millar AM: I understand that, but I've got people in my constituency who haven't even got a broadband link at home, so there's a digital disadvantage as well. Can I just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out? It was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both English and Welsh for the new qualifications. We're three years on, what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long? If you've got these resources digitally, why can't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly?
Gareth Pierce: I think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened. There were some in 2015, other subjects in 2016, and other subjects in 2017. Those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work. Perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources. I would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources, and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources. There are more past papers available, of course. We are working on sample work at the request of teachers. So, every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied. But those same difficulties have, unfortunately, affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects, and that's why we're discussing the same thing in 2018.
Darren Millar AM: So, it's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work?
Gareth Pierce: Yes.
Philip Blaker: I think Gareth, in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously, has said about the timeline, the schedule, for reforms. Now, that's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in England. Now that we've reached a point of divergence in GCSEs and A-levels, between England and Wales, it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that doesn't place the pressures on the system. So, Gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms, but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that. So, the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process, the awarding body preparing its submissions to use, and then system readiness thereafter.
Darren Millar AM: That timeline was obviously set by the Welsh Government. I assume that advice was given by WJEC and Qualifications Wales and your predecessor organisation to the Welsh Government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by.
Gareth Pierce: Yes, and similarly in England, the examination boards working in England would have provided the same advice to the Government there. And, of course, the Welsh Government programme was associated with the reform programme in England, in particularly for those A-level subjects, where there was a strong influence from the universities across the UK in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the A-level subjects. So, England and Wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries, and I would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in Wales and England. But our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved, then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be, thinking about what the teaching programme will be, and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally, with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching. So, as they will know what resources will be available, we'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes, and then that timeline is convenient for everybody.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Darren, I've got to bring Llyr in now.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Estyn, NAHT, UCAC, NASUWT, WJEC and Qualifications Wales have pointed to the way in which the Government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties. You mentioned the fact that they come wave upon wave. Well, what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we're currently facing? That is, how confident can we be that the situation won't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve?
Gareth Pierce: That is a very key question, isn't it? We have started to discuss this, specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in Wales, with the Welsh Government around the table and Qualifications Wales around the table. I think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is: what will the nature of the information available in April 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum? At what level of detail will it be? To what extent will it be adapted again after April 2019? Is it detailed enough, really, for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching, and that we then still have a role with publishers, even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications? WJEC has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well. I think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear, because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in September 2022. If we're talking about a year of preparation, that brings us back to September 2021. If we're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year, we're talking about September 2020. So, the timetable does appear already tight, particularly if there's something that's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019, and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes. So, I think it is a key question, and I can't be confident at the moment that this is going to work.
Lynne Neagle AM: Did you want to come in, Philip?
Philip Blaker: I think one of the big differences is it's a tsunami we can see coming. So, young people will be assessed for the first time, assuming linear exams, in the summer 2027, which is some way away, and, actually, given the reform process historically, this is probably the most foresight we've seen of a big change like this. There is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum, because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum, so we do need to see something coming out of that. I think, for us, once we've seen the curriculum, and we've got better sight of it, we'll be able to plan things out. We've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications, and, ultimately, there'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made, probably in 2023, which would be that if the conditions don't appear right for safe implementation, then we would make a recommendation to Welsh Government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification, not in terms of the curriculum, for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up. So, we're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process, but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions.
Gareth Pierce: Just one very brief comment in that context: I think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there. They emphasise, in the context of the curriculum, the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing, therefore I think we truly need to discuss that. Does that suggest that there won't be so much need for national resources, or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case? We need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail, I think.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, certainly, and one is concerned that that conversation isn't already happening, but, yes, okay, you've made that point clearly. If I could return, therefore, to the commercial issue—clearly, there is a shortage of providers in Wales, and we are reliant on others. You suggested that the WJEC may be interested in stepping up and taking some sort of role if regulations were changed. I assume that that would be something that you would be eager to see happening in terms of the change to regulation in that context.
Gareth Pierce: Yes, and we've been part of starting that discussion amongst publishers in Wales. Certainly, there is interest. I think that I haven't described correctly the purpose of a seminar to encourage interest: the interest is there, but there needs to be an understanding of what the implications are of working towards that kind of timetable, what the implications are of working in two languages, what kind of business model, perhaps, would be suitable for the publishers in Wales, how much certainty could be given to them that there is a period of work, because they would want to build their teams, and develop skills within those teams, and to have enough certainty that this is worth doing. And therefore, those are the sort of issues that we're starting a discussion on, in the hope of having a discussion in June to move that forward. Of course, Welsh Government, Qualifications Wales and other stakeholders are part of this discussion, not only WJEC, but we've been part of initiating that discussion.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Is this developing at the pace that you would like to see it developing?
Gareth Pierce: Yes, I think, and there is some enthusiasm. For example, a number of publishers in Wales are within an association describing itself as Cwlwm Cyhoeddwyr Cymru. Myrddin ap Dafydd is chair of Cwlwm at the moment, and there is enthusiasm and vision, certainly. So, there's a wonderful opportunity, I think, for Wales to interpret these possibilities swiftly and then hopefully take action on them.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: And we're talking here not just about translating but developing resources, and the point, I think, is an important one around some of the evidence that we've received about the importance of developing resources naturally bilingually from the very beginning, rather than having to translate something. Because there have been comments that translations are clunky, difficult to follow and not—I'm not saying that they're not fit for purpose, but certainly don't facilitate teaching, perhaps, as easily as one would wish.
Gareth Pierce: Yes, I would agee, and that begins with the authors, doesn't it? We must have the authors—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, the expertise, and the same capacty with the publishers as well.
Gareth Pierce: Yes, and we do want to nurture authors within Wales, particularly given that the new curriculum has to do justice to a Welsh dimension within the curriculum in so many different subjects. So, we need authors who can be developed, and authors who would be willing to work with the publishers. That's a very specific theme within one of the ideas of the seminars with publishers.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy, if it were to develop bilingually? Or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy?
Gareth Pierce: Our view in the WJEC is that subsidy will be necessary. But we could rethink the model for the subsidy, perhaps. At the moment, the subsidy is described as a subsidy for the Welsh-medium version. Why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the Welsh curriculum? And perhaps we would need a little more funding for that. But there will be organisations such as the WJEC who will still be interested in contributing, because we are a charity, and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in Wales.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But in terms of where we are now, resources have to be translated. I struggle at times to understand why it takes so much time to translate a resource. I would like to know better, perhaps, what the main barriers are in that sense. But also, how long is acceptable to wait for a translation, in your view?
Mike Ebbsworth: We've done a great deal of work recently, over recent years, to ensure that that delay between having an English version and a Welsh version is reduced. We are highly aware of the fact that the best-case scenario is that the Welsh and the English are available simultaneously. In those terms, we've taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we've named this morning, so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced. There is a risk there, of course. The nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind, or edit as he or she is writing. Well, with that model, we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward, chapter by chapter perhaps, so that there would be no changes to be made from then on. At the end of the process, then, the publishers in England have agreed to hold the English version back for a period of time until the Welsh version is available, and then to publish both simultaneously. Unless that timetable is followed throughout the process, there are inherent risks in that process, of course, as I've mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials, and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to.
Gareth Pierce: And perhaps there is a need to emphasise that the process is translation and editing as a package, and that sometimes the same amount of time goes on the editing, how the Welsh works in terms of diagrams and things that aren't text necessarily—pictures and so forth. So, eight weeks, I think, is the time that we've succeeded in agreeing with the publishers so that we can turn around the Welsh version in that period of time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Darren.
Darren Millar AM: I just want to ask about this eight-week delay. So, you’re telling us, Mr Ebbsworth, that the WJEC has agreed with Hodder and Illuminate that, in future, even if an English textbook is available for publication, and it’s already late, you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the Welsh-medium textbook?
Mike Ebbsworth: We can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed. Naturally, if something is late in English, then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken. But that's the hope: that when new textbooks are produced in English and authored in English, we would look at that eight-week period as a turnaround.
Darren Millar AM: I understand the point that you made earlier about the chapter-by-chapter approach, which seems much more equitable. But to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you haven't got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day, seems to be wholly inappropriate. Can I ask, also, why on earth it isn't possible to produce Welsh-medium textbooks first and then translate them to English on occasions?
Mike Ebbsworth: We're entirely open to that and to that sort of model.
Darren Millar AM: So, why has that never ever been done?
Gareth Pierce: Well, of course, it would happen with subjects that stem from Wales, but I think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors, therefore, tend to work through the medium of English. But, just to be clear, this idea of delaying an English version is something that the Welsh Government is eager for us to experiment with, but not with textbooks that are already late. They are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500,000. So, in a way, this is an experiment and the Welsh Government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available.
Darren Millar AM: So, you're being forced to do this by the Welsh Government, rather than—
Gareth Pierce: Well, we've agreed to do it in discussion with them.
Darren Millar AM: So, are you happy with that approach?
Gareth Pierce: Well, as long as the textbook isn't late in the first place, then yes; it's worth trying. There is a challenge on the eight weeks, there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the English version first of all, but we are willing to use this as a test bed, and we're working on two specific textbooks on this.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think the committee is struggling with this idea, so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that, then? Is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged?
Gareth Pierce: Well, no, in a way, it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources. With the digital materials, the intention is that things are available in time and that they're available in both languages at the same time. So, trying to imitate that with printed text is what we're trying to do, but not with texts that are already late. So, if these books keep to the timetable, then they will be available in time in both languages, but that the English version has stayed before going out on the shelves.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, that's to say that the English version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation.
Mike Ebbsworth: Well, ultimately, I may have used the wrong words in saying that we're holding the English back. The English version would still be in the process, just as the Welsh version would be, and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing. There is an element of editing the English as well as the Welsh and that would happen in that eight-week period. So, a draft form might be available, and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible, but then that has to be held up before publication.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. John.
John Griffiths AM: Just on that, Chair, it's nonetheless the case, as we've heard, I think, and as the letter to the committee from Kirsty Williams has made clear, that there might be a situation where the English-language version of a textbook could be made available, but it isn't made available because there isn't a Welsh-language version. And, as the Chair said, is that about putting those students in Wales on the same footing, and if so, how does that relate to the fact that these students, including those who could have had earlier access to the English-language version, are competing with students over the border, as we heard on the video earlier, for those precious university places? Doesn't it place the English-language student using the English-language version at a potential disadvantage, compared to students over the border?
Gareth Pierce: I think this is a point for Qualifications Wales to a certain extent, but applicants for qualifications in Wales are assessed as a national cohort, if truth be told, so, each piece of information we have on the standards is evaluated for that national cohort. The standards stem from the three-nation system. So, in discussion with Qualifications Wales, we ensure that there is no disadvantage to any cohort in Wales in any subject, be that because of a textbook being unavailable or for any other reason.
Philip Blaker: Certainly, from a comparable outcomes perspective, the fewer differences that there are that are differential—. So, the idea of textbooks being available in English and Welsh at different times could potentially create another dimension in terms of disparity. So, if we're looking at it strictly speaking from a comparable outcomes perspective, it makes the awarding easier if everybody's on a common playing field. It's worth remembering—we provided some evidence in our original letter particularly looking at religious studies on the basis that religious studies was a subject that had been mentioned. This subject has already been awarded at AS-level last year, so it has gone through an award and will go through the full A-level award this year. The comparable outcomes approach did protect those learners last year, in the absence of a textbook, and we saw stability in the results that came out of the cohort level. Similarly, with other subjects that have gone through reforms, we've seen it with the GCSEs that were awarded last year, ASs that were awarded last year and A-levels that were awarded last year: we saw good comparability year on year.
Lynne Neagle AM: Go on then, Darren. Is that okay, John?
Darren Millar AM: Just a very brief follow-up on that, at the cohort level, yes, you suggest that there is some evidence that students were protected, but what you don't know and can't tell, because you're not able to drill down to the individual student level, is whether children, young people, were disadvantaged as a result of their learning style being more textbook orientated than that of their peers.
Philip Blaker: I guess we're in a situation where there's no evidence either way that that—
Darren Millar AM: The absence of evidence doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
Philip Blaker: No, but there is no evidence to suggest that. We have no positive evidence to suggest that.
Darren Millar AM: Well, I think you've seen plenty of evidence about the stress that it's causing, and the concern that learners have about their outcomes. I think it would be very interesting, actually, to take some teacher assessments and expected grades and compare those to the actual grade outcomes. Is that something that Qualifications Wales could do on a sample basis?
Philip Blaker: Historically, that sort of evidence has been very unreliable. Gareth would probably have a stronger view on that than me. Predicted grades used to be provided. Certainly, back in my day at an awarding body they were provided, and there tended to be a very low correlation between the predicted grade and the actual achieved grade. I don't know if you've got anything on that, Gareth.
Gareth Pierce: No, we agree with you that the comparisons are not that reliable, because there are so many factors. But I think, at the end of the day, what we see is, yes, I agree there is evidence of stress, but I think there's also evidence of young people and their teachers really using the available resources and the available skills in approaching revision and preparation, and tending to do that very well. That's the evidence that we've got, for example, in the AS religious studies last year, that the cohort did extremely well in fact. We can't disagree that there's evidence of stress, but I think we can also point towards resilience and excellent approaches to drawing together the various sources that they've got: classroom notes, revision notes, as they mentioned, and the various other materials that they referred to.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. John.
John Griffiths AM: Coming back to the effect of the lack of resources, we heard on the video, as you've just mentioned, Gareth, that pupils were experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety, and it affected their well-being in terms of their perception that they might be disadvantaged by the lack of resources, as we discussed. We know exam time is very, very stressful—I'm sure all of us would agree with that—in general, without any additional problems or perceptions of problems. So, with that sort of background, would you accept then that some students have been negatively affected by the lack of suitable support materials for general qualifications? I know we've discussed this in terms of it being difficult, perhaps, to show cause and effect, but I think most people watching that video would clearly come to the view that some students have been negatively impacted. Would you accept that?
Gareth Pierce: I'd have to agree. There is evidence of their concern, isn't there? But as Philip said, what we don't have is evidence that that anxiety then has an impact on their attainment, because there are so many factors, there are so many different kinds of resources that they've referred to—even those who want to see textbooks, they're also talking about so many other materials that are available to them. Of course, it's also clear that they are conscientious young people who have worked hard, so you have a picture there of young people who are concerned, yes, and as you've said, examinations are a stressful time in general, but they are also young people who are doing their level best, and usually do get the results that they have worked for. That's the evidence that we have: the results tend to be achieved.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Coming back again to matters that we've already discussed, but just to put to you in a fairly focused way, would you accept that it isn't fair that some pupils are not having the support material that others are having, depending on whether their particular subject is involved and the language that they're studying through? Would you accept that that is a basic unfairness in the system as it currently exists?
Gareth Pierce: Ideally, resources, digital accessibility and digital literacy should be available for every pupil on an equal basis. But I think perhaps if we analysed this in much detail, different individuals would be able to say, 'There are different types of unfairness.' You referred earlier to the digital inequalities. Is there an economic inequality? There is some evidence from the teaching unions that suggests that not every school is in the same situation as each other in terms of buying the resources that are available. So, I think your question drives at a very important point: what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in terms of their achievement during their school time? Ideally, each one of those elements of potential inequality should be levelled. So, I don't think I can go any further than acknowledging that any inequality is unfair, but there are so many different kinds and the textbook is not the only one, and therefore we're not going to be able to analyse the impact of that on its own.
John Griffiths AM: Could I put to you, finally then, what Estyn have said about reported delays in the production and distribution of educational resources such as textbooks, marking criteria and specimen papers, that that delay has impeded the ability of teachers to plan adequately, and that this effect on their ability to plan adequately is very likely to have had an impact on pupils' achievement? Would you accept that?
Gareth Pierce: It's interesting—they link three quite different things there, don't they? We've discussed the textbooks in some detail. When they refer to sample assessments, we have to provide those within the regulatory time frame, and they have to be approved. So, in every subject there are sample assessments and marking schemes, and they are statutorily available, in a way. When they talk about exemplars, there are different interpretations of that. One request that we receive often from schools is for exemplars in terms of the work of pupils that has been assessed and marked by us. Of course, they're not available until the young people have taken those exams for the very first time. We can make them available digitally, and through various other methods. But in some subjects the demand has been so strong that we have worked with schools in order to ensure that work is produced by pupils before that first examination, is marked by us, and is then made available. So, we can respond to that demand when it arises. I would like to have a conversation with Estyn, indeed, to interpret on a more detailed level some of the things that they refer to.
Emyr George: May I offer a comment on that quote from Estyn? They talk about a reduction in attainment and that, to some extent, brings us back to the point in terms of the comparable outcomes method that we're talking about. That method is based on research and evidence that says that in a period of change to an exam or qualification, we know that performance in an exam can fall, and that is due to a number of different factors. Teachers aren't as familiar with the specification and the requirements of the exam. There are fewer past assessment resources available; there aren't any past papers, for example. Certainly, knowing that you're the first to sit that exam perhaps raises your concerns about that examination, and examinations are a matter of concern already. It's very difficult, if not impossible, to differentiate between those factors, but what we know on the whole is that they come together to have an impact on pupils' performance in an exam, and that's why, when it comes to awarding qualifications for the first time and looking at the grades, we look very carefully at what that the mark means in terms of the grade in order to try as best as we can, on the level of the whole national cohort, to eliminate as much unfairness as possible because they are the first cohort to sit the exam.
Gareth Pierce: Could I just make a brief comment on the sample assessments? Now, interestingly, when the English, Welsh, maths, and maths and numeracy GCSEs were new, the Welsh Government were very eager that we invest in more sample assessment materials. We had to produce one for the regulator, but they wanted to see us produce far more, and we did that. But there are risks inherent in that, too. If we create more and more sample assessments, then does that create more risk of teaching to the test? And every time we produce one of these, of course, we are using robust assessment ideas, and they're out there to be used for test purposes. So, we need to be careful that we don't weaken the real assessment by providing too many of the examiners' good ideas in the sample material. So, it's an interesting theme, but it would be interesting to have a further conversation with Estyn on that.
Philip Blaker: I just wanted to say, looking towards—. Reforms always throw up issues like this. It's almost an inevitability of any change that there will be impact. I think what we need to do is we need to think about the future reforms, particularly knowing that we've got some on the radar already, and to think about what this paradigm is and how we can isolate some of these factors in the future. So, if we look at resources and if we look particularly at textbooks as being a curriculum resource, rather than a qualification resource, I think we can change the timeline to which some of those materials are produced. So, going back to when I studied my A-levels in the 1980s, there was this common body of knowledge that was an A-level textbook in biology that wasn't focused around an individual awarding body. When we talked to unions about this on Monday, they said, 'Yes, when we used to teach many years ago, there were curriculum resources like that, and then when a particular topic or a particular area of content dropped out of the qualification, we either did or didn't teach it according to whether it was in the curriculum'. That's a little bit worrying by virtue of the fact there might have been a component of that subject that didn't get taught because it was no longer in the text, despite the fact that it was in the common body of knowledge. But I think if we can shift this paradigm—and I would really like to a shift in the paradigm for resources particularly, away from the focus on the qualification and into more of a focus on the curriculum—then that provides an opportunity for, I would suggest, a much healthier model in the future. There are various ways of doing that. In the United States, for example, there are some states within the United States that produce a state textbook. Now, that can have issues, particularly if it's politically orientated—so, if politicians are seen to have a strong influence in the content that's taught. But if there is independence in that state model, then I think that can be quite strong model. Equally, if you look at somewhere like Hong Kong, they've actually tried to de-emphasise textbooks. So, Hong Kong, which is a very high-performing jurisdiction, is trying to move away from that model in the future.
Gareth Pierce: Could I just add very, very briefly—
Lynne Neagle AM: Very briefly, because I want to bring Hefin in.
Gareth Pierce: I know that, in our letter to you, we emphasised that this is not just to do with the body of knowledge. The assessment objectives have shifted in many subjects towards analysis and evaluation. So, therefore, we really do need resources that support that way of working, and I'm sure that lots of the young people we've heard from—what they're really doing in their revision is actually not just studying the content, but thinking about how they respond analytically and evaluatively. In fact, an interesting question for us as an awarding body to debate with the qualifications regulator, maybe, is whether some of the content should actually be able to be taken into the assessment hall. Do young people need to remember all these terms and their precise definitions, sometimes in both languages if they've learnt it in that way? Shouldn't some of the reference material be more and more available in the assessment arena? And then you are really getting towards analysis and interpretation and evaluation.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Hefin.
Hefin David AM: I want to welcome these particular comments, because having come from a higher education background, what I've tried to deliver in my courses are textbook-free modules, where you're relying on academic journal articles and you're piecing together the story yourself, based on the curriculum you develop yourself. So, curriculum-focused resources are very welcome. I fear that students who are nurtured on a textbook diet, when they go to university, they are not expected to repeat what's in the textbook; they're expected to do exactly as Gareth says and analyse and combine information into a discursive argument. So, therefore, I'm interested to know how you've worked with higher education to develop that approach. I also welcome what you've just said too.
Lynne Neagle AM: Can I ask for brief answers, please?
Gareth Pierce: Yes, well some of the people who provide ideas into our digital resources certainly are either teachers who are very well aware of that progression to HE and therefore what their learners want or, in some cases, they are HE people themselves. We do draw on a body of expertise, and we are more than willing to emphasise the importance of that approach to the support resources we provide.
Hefin David AM: I think the difficulty and the difference is that, at HE level, the kind of journal articles that are available are probably not consumable at GCSE level. That's part of the problem you have with that approach.
Gareth Pierce: Yes. And I think, interestingly—I know we've pointed towards some of our religious studies resources as examples—I think some of the websites we point to are quite ambitious. They would be described as scholarly, and I think some of the young people on the video made that point, didn't they—that they need to engage with that material to understand some themes? But we need to assist them in doing so. We need to almost make those scholarly items that are worth including in their curriculum accessible and user friendly for them at their point of learning.
Lynne Neagle AM: Philip.
Philip Blaker: It was just one point. We recently published a report on the Welsh baccalaureate and skills challenge certificate, and I think it's relevant to pull in at this point that the independent study that pupils would be expected to do through the skills challenge certificate in doing their project work is really designed to try and draw out some of those skills that would be relevant in higher education. Through the reforms that we are starting to think about for the skills challenge certificate, there's a real opportunity to start honing some of those skills, particularly at the advanced level bacc, to make people really HE-ready so that they're better able to engage with that different style of learning. So, I think there's a huge opportunity that shouldn't be diminished within the advanced Welsh bacc.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Last questions from Mark then.
Mark Reckless AM: Gareth, can I just put to you—? On the Estyn criticism, I think you've answered one aspect of their criticism that WJEC did not make as many sample assessment materials available as schools would have liked early on in the reform process, and I understand your position there, but they went on and said, 'At times the sample assessment materials were provided with incorrect mark schemes' and also, 'It would be helpful if the WJEC ensure that all necessary resources were made available before the start date of each qualification.' Do you have a response to those points?
Gareth Pierce: Again, probably, I'd like a conversation with them about any problems with the specimen assessments and their mark schemes, because if they are the statutory regulatory ones they would have gone through Philip's team as well or his Welsh Government predecessors as regulators, depending on which qualifications they were. Obviously, we need to be spot-on with those. Very occasionally, somebody will identify an error, and obviously we then correct them, because these are available digitally online. So, if there is a problem, we want to hear about it and then we can correct it. But, yes, I agree with their fundamental premise, that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts, including, as we mentioned earlier, so we can draw on that set of resources in the events we run as WJEC free of charge for teachers leading up to the first teaching. We need that information ourselves as well so we can talk about the use of these valuable resources in an appropriate pedagogical context in that preparatory year. So, the ideal is that everything is there 12 months ahead.
Mark Reckless AM: So, what mechanism do you have for picking up on this type of criticisms from Estyn and having that conversation with them? Has that not happened?
Gareth Pierce: We have met with Estyn a couple of times recently, actually—once when they were beginning their review of the key stage 4 qualifications that had been in place for two years and a bit, and also when they were planning a review of some of the A-level work. Because we do have regular meetings with them, we will have an opportunity to explore their comments here I'm sure.
Mark Reckless AM: Looking at the structure and the relationship between Qualifications Wales and the WJEC—. I understand in the model in England—you've got Ofqual, the regulator, and you have various competing exam boards, some I think with for-profit motivation. We don't have that in Wales; there is a sole regulator and a single, dominant examination board. Does that mean that there's significant overlap and potentially cost duplication between the work of the two bodies, particularly given WJEC is a charity and seems to have many of the same objectives as you in Qualifications Wales have?
Philip Blaker: The roles are very distinct, so I'd tell you there's no overlap. What we try and do is try and make sure that there's a good connection between the work that we do. WJEC has very clear responsibilities around the delivery of qualifications. We have a role in monitoring to ensure that those qualifications are delivered securely and fairly. I would say a strength of the Welsh model is that there is an independent regulator and a single awarding body largely, because much of the work that Ofqual would need to do in terms of its maintenance of standards is about ensuring that the competition between awarding bodies doesn't lead to what's been termed in the past as a race to the bottom in terms of standards. Now, the opportunity that we have in Wales is, where we have a single awarding body, we can have a close and good working relationship with WJEC, but guarding very strongly to make sure that we keep that regulatory distance to make sure that we preserve our role as the regulator and look at WJEC as one of our regulated bodies.
Gareth Pierce: Can I make a general point? Perhaps the important opportunity in Wales is to look anew at how national and regional organisations, such as the consortia, can collaborate to make a success of the broad range of resources and CPD that will be required to support the new curriculum, and also the next set of qualifications that will be reformed. We've referred to many organisations today, but there are others. The Welsh Books Council, for example, is part of this discussion. The Learned Society of Wales is a player that wants to introduce ideas into the Welsh dimension of the curriculum. There was mention of the HE sector earlier. Teachers' associations have very specific comments to make on some of these areas. There is a great opportunity for us to come together and to have a national approach. There will be a need for some financial resource from the Welsh Government—yes, certainly—and the WJEC can provide some resources, but I think we all want to collaborate in order to ensure the success of the next round of resources.
Mark Reckless AM: But doesn't that national approach and collaboration preclude the model that Philip was talking about earlier, where we had textbooks based on the curriculum, and there's that core, but that was separate from what the exam body decided to do and the textbook wasn't there for the particular exam approach? If you have a single, dominant exam board, and you have a Welsh curriculum that's developed with that board, how do you then have this separation between textbook and exam?
Philip Blaker: So, if we look at qualification, a qualification should be based on the curriculum that's being offered, because learning should be based around the curriculum, and the role of the qualification is to measure attainment against knowledge of that curriculum—knowledge, skills and understanding, the dispositions that that curriculum is trying to develop. So, I think there are two very distinct things. Now, of course, what will inevitably happen is once the curriculum is known and developed, there will be a level of detail that comes across from what the qualification is looking for. I think what we're trying to say is, from an educational perspective, what we'd like to see is a broader focus on the curriculum and less of a narrow focus on the qualification and some of the problems that that can drive, so that, if a learner is well-versed in the curriculum and has been taught well and has acquired the knowledge, skills and dispositions that the curriculum is trying to create, they should succeed in the qualification.
Mark Reckless AM: And you suggested earlier that, if need be, the qualification could be pushed back a year, but not the curriculum. Does that mean that it would be possible to teach the new curriculum while keeping the old qualification?
Philip Blaker: It would be possible.
Mark Reckless AM: But satisfactory?
Philip Blaker: Because, if we're looking at qualifications predominantly being 14 to 16, what Professor Donaldson said at the very beginning, with 'Successful Futures', was, actually, if the curriculum is preparing people better for that qualification stage, so that they're better versed as learners and better able to perform in those qualifications and we see a rise of attainment—. Ideally, you'd be in a position where you've got GCSEs that have been reformed to marry up to any change, but I don't see there being a huge problem in itself of a delay if we think that is the right thing to do. Clearly, we consider that to be a sub-optimal thing. We would much rather be in a position of having reforms, but, equally, I'd want to see any reforms delivered safely, and I wouldn't want to compromise fairness and safety of delivery of those qualifications on the basis of a timeline. But I think all too often the case is that a timeline dominates over doing what is the right thing and I think as we get further into this we'll have to really assess and keep a grip of what's the right thing to do.
Mark Reckless AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Very briefly, Darren.
Darren Millar AM: Just on this issue of shaping the curriculum and making sure that we've got textbooks that can be used to support the delivery of the curriculum—. So, obviously, the WJEC's interested in the examinations and the qualifications. That's your role as well in terms of Qualifications Wales. So, who should be responsible for developing these curriculum resources?
Philip Blaker: I think, for a new model, that needs to be determined. Welsh Government has a role in curriculum at the moment. They have responsibility for curriclum and they've already started work with the seminar last year, and then drawing people together now to look at a new model for the future. I think we need to evolve that approach, and I think Welsh Government taking a lead on some of this thinking about how things might be prepared for the future is probably a good position to be in at the moment.
Darren Millar AM: Are there any other models that you can point us to in terms of how these things are done elsewhere?
Philip Blaker: Yes, there are models where you can have—. For example, in Northern Ireland, you have the regulator, the awarding body and the curriculum body all under one roof. So, you can have a position where everything is tied together as it is in Northern Ireland with the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment. Equally, if you look at somewhere like Hong Kong, you have very distinct bodies that are looking after each individual component. So, there are lots of different models that can be developed. But, of course, in Wales, and also previously in England, the qualifications regulator has also had a responsibility for curriculum. So, there has been that model in the past in Wales.
Gareth Pierce: Just very briefly.
Lynne Neagle AM: Really quickly, please.
Gareth Pierce: Just one thing very briefly, in terms of the WJEC. I mentioned earlier that, in the past, the WJEC has produced a fair few resources in collaboration with publishers in key stage 3 and even at primary stages. Certainly, key stage 3 is closely linked to GCSE, and, therefore, if the WJEC continues to be a player—as I hope it will—in the area of resources for GCSE and A-level, then the WJEC is also well positioned in terms of our investment in editing, translating and the use of technology to contribute to key stage 3 most certainly and perhaps even the primary stages. So, I'm sure that the WJEC would want to offer itself as a national organisation that wants to contribute as best we can in this area.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you very much. Well, we're out of time, so can I thank you very much for attending this morning and for answering all our questions? I think it's been a very useful and informative session. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, following the meeting. But thank you very much, again, for your attendance.
Gareth Pierce: Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 4 is papers to note. In view of the time, can I ask whether Members are happy to note all those papers in a block? Can I just flag that I would like to return to paper to note 3, which is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education on minority ethnic, Gypsy, Roma and Traveller learners, when we go into private, if that's okay with Members? Item 5, then, is for me to propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you.
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doc_63
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User Interface: Hi .
Industrial Designer: Hi .
Project Manager: Hello .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh .
Project Manager: Good morning .
User Interface: Good morning .
Industrial Designer: Morning .
Marketing: Good morning .
Project Manager: Uh before I start with the with the meeting I have a few things to tell you about the the setting we're in , uh because we're uh being watched by uh Big Brother . So um {disfmarker}
Marketing: By Big Brother ?
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: This uh {disfmarker} These are cameras , so are these . This thing uh that looks like a pie ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: are actually all microphones .
Marketing: Yeah . Okay .
Project Manager: So you must be careful with uh with uh all this . And uh as I can see you uh you have placed your laptops uh exactly on the place where it must be . And that has to do with the camera settings , so we don't have our uh laptops in front of the cameras .
Marketing: Of our faces .
Project Manager: And {disfmarker} Indeed . So they can see our faces .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Welcome at the kick-off meeting . My name is uh Danny Wolfs . {vocalsound} Uh this is the agenda for today . Uh first a little opening . Uh I will introduce myself , uh and uh I think it's very uh good to introduce uh yourself . Uh then uh a little bit of acquaintance , acquaintance to uh to to ourselves . So uh we get to know each other . Uh that will be done uh with a tool training from the he these two uh smart boards . Then the project plan . What we're going to do , and how we're going to do it . Uh and discussion about that and a little closing at the end . {vocalsound} Okay uh , my name is uh Danny Wolfs . I'm the Project Manager . What's your name ?
User Interface: I'm Juergen Toffs . I'm the User Interface Designer .
Project Manager: User interface , okay .
Industrial Designer: Hi , my name's uh {gap} . I'm the Industrial Designer .
Project Manager: Industrial , yes .
Marketing: I'm uh Tim {gap} . Um my function is the Marketing Expert .
Project Manager: Okay , thank you . First a little about the project aim . Uh the the the aim is to make a new remote control . Uh maybe you have read uh read the website . It's a very uh , yeah , very uh ambitious uh company . They uh they wanna do something else . I w Uh there must be a new remote control . Uh first of all uh it must be original , uh and trendy . That's two things really uh close to each other . But at the same time uh user-friendly . And they have uh {disfmarker} Yeah , that's uh very important uh for them . Uh there are three stages . There is a functional design . So uh what are we going uh to uh to do ? What are we going to uh uh make f uh kind of functions in the remote ? And why are we going to do it ? Then the conceptual design . How are going to do it ? {vocalsound} And that's uh really global . Uh because at the detailed design , how , part two , uh we go uh to dig in uh really about how the the te the technical of {disfmarker} If it's uh it's possible technical-wise .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh each stage is uh {vocalsound} uh is broken up in two uh two stages , individual work and a meeting . So it's uh it's very straightforward . {vocalsound} Okay , the tool training . We have two smart boards . {vocalsound} This one is for the presentations , the PowerPoint presentations or the Word presentation of whatever you uh you had . Uh and this is uh only for uh drawing . So uh we uh must let it uh stand on this uh this programme . {vocalsound} This is called a smart board
Marketing: {vocalsound} Speaks for itself .
Project Manager: thing uh {disfmarker} Yeah , it speaks for itself . Um and as you uh may have heard , the documents in the shared folder uh can be uh showed on this screen . Not in y the the My Documents . So if you wanna show something , put it in the shared folder . {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} This uh is {gap} very straightforward , with the save , the print , the undo , the blank , the select , the pen . Well , I don't uh gonna explain it all ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because I think you know uh how it works . Um we must not forget uh everything we draw on here , uh all must be saved . We we may not delete anything . So uh if you have uh drawn something , save it . Never delete it . That's a very important uh thing .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Uh little uh little {vocalsound} kinda exercise to uh know each other .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} At uh the white board on the left . Every uh every one of us uh must draw our favourite animal ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} and uh tell uh tell us why we uh had uh chosen that animal . Uh important is that we use different colours , {vocalsound} and uh different pen widths . Widths . Widths .
Marketing: I have a question .
Project Manager: Yes ?
Marketing: Um this exercise , um did the company board tell you to do it ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: or uh did you just make it up yourself ?
Project Manager: No no no . It's uh it's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I I I must do it .
Marketing: It's part of the introduction ,
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah , yeah . 'Cause we uh really don't know each other ,
Marketing: okay .
Project Manager: and uh it's kinda new . So getting used to each other , we can uh have a little fun then , before we uh dig in really to the hard stuff .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That kind of thing . Would you start with drawing your uh favourite animal ?
Marketing: Um , yeah . I don't know really how it works . But maybe you can show us first ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay , okay . Yeah , okay . Drawing goes with uh this thing . Do not touch your hand on uh this little uh thingy here . That's uh important .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So hold it uh like this .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: You g you get electrocuted or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , kinda . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} You must p p uh push a little uh {disfmarker} Good . Because {disfmarker} And uh wait uh wait a few seconds . It's not uh fully real-time , so uh watch it .
User Interface: Ach . {gap}
Project Manager: Oh yeah . Well I'm gonna paint in the red .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh .
User Interface: Ooph .
Project Manager: That's the background colour . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , undo . Um {disfmarker} The pen ? No . One minute please . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , that's the one . Well , five . Okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} My favourite animal huh ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's like Pictionary ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , you can guess what it is .
Marketing: The the one who says it first {vocalsound} gets a raise .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} May uh paint uh next .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's a pork ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No , it's not an orc . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You don't see it uh at the ears ?
Marketing: Mm yeah , I have it at home . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You have an orc at home ?
User Interface: Very artistic .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Thank you .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So it's a cat . {vocalsound}
Marketing: What's it called ?
Project Manager: Simba . 'Cause uh we have a cat at home
Marketing: Ah .
Project Manager: and he's called Simba . 'Cause he looks like the uh the the lion from The Lion King .
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Miniature size ?
Project Manager: So we uh found it kinda cool to uh name it after a lion .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: He's happy with us , so uh he's smiling .
User Interface: Wow . He does have body uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Huh .
Project Manager: No , only the face . Because we have we have twen twenty five minutes . So we uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . We have to speed up .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Remember you use uh different colours , and different pen widths .
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay , who wants to go next ?
Marketing: I {disfmarker} Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So choose a colour , choose a pen width and draw a {disfmarker}
User Interface: You don't have to change the colour and the pen width during uh the drawing .
Marketing: Save it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Or {disfmarker}
Marketing: You have to save it .
Project Manager: Save it , okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I've done it . New ? 'Kay .
User Interface: You have to draw uh push hard on the pen or uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm uh {disfmarker} Not really .
Project Manager: Kind of firm touch .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That one .
User Interface: Oh . Uh hmm .
Marketing: Yeah ? Okay . Open . Which one is it ? Smart board ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . And now ? Okay . Okay , thanks . 'Kay , I've speed up . 'Kay , that's fine . Line width .
Industrial Designer: By the way , why was your cat uh red ?
Project Manager: Because uh my cat is red uh at home .
User Interface: Oh .
Industrial Designer: Oh , okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And I have red hair , so uh must be red .
User Interface: It's a very bloody cat .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh , yeah , sure .
User Interface: It's a frog . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No , it's a turtle . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh it's an apple . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's not an apple .
Industrial Designer: Must be a dog . {vocalsound}
User Interface: A dog ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Hmm . Colour . {vocalsound} Something like this . Smaller .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Huh ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh , it is a turtle .
Project Manager: It is a turtle . Why a turtle ? Why ? Tim ?
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} 'Cause I liked Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You watched it a lot ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh ?
Project Manager: You watched it a lot ?
User Interface: It's uh inside its shell . You'll be uh finished sooner .
Marketing: No , it's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's a scared turtle .
Marketing: No no . {vocalsound} It's coming up . Mm . Uh .
User Interface: Wow .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay , Tim . Thank you . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Something like this . {vocalsound} Okay , you know {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Very artistic .
Project Manager: Jurgen , you want to go next ?
User Interface: Yes {gap} . Okay . Wha Thank you .
Marketing: Yeah ? Here you go .
User Interface: Yeah . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: How did it work ?
Project Manager: Format ? And then you have the the current colour ,
User Interface: Performance ?
Project Manager: you can change . So no red or green .
User Interface: And a pen ?
Project Manager: And uh line uh width . I had five .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Tim had {disfmarker} Uh Tim , what kinda line width did you have ?
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh the big lines were like nine .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . It's a dog .
User Interface: Well , very good . {vocalsound} I just uh thought I'd pick the easiest one .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh .
Project Manager: Okay . Why a dog ? You have a dog at home ?
User Interface: Well , we had a dog , a few years ago .
Project Manager: Had a dog ?
Marketing: Uh , it's p
Project Manager: Yeah ?
User Interface: And and it , {gap} yeah , when it died we didn't get a new one or something .
Project Manager: Ah .
User Interface: But uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's pretty good uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You have an artistic uh inner middle .
Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound} An artist .
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh a Graphical User Designer , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: Hey .
Marketing: Think you uh picked the wrong uh function . Wrong job .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No . Can work together . Ah colour .
Project Manager: So I think you can see it's real uh really a easy programme to use . Not difficult at all .
Marketing: Wha
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well ,
Project Manager: Okay ,
User Interface: it's okay {gap} .
Project Manager: thank you . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's enough ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: thanks . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Janus ? The last one ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , sure .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh thanks .
Marketing: I wonder .
Project Manager: Yeah . After a cat , a turtle and a dog .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think he's gonna draw an elephant . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I figure I should do something like that ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but I'm gonna do something much more difficult .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh-oh .
User Interface: Uh-oh . Oh , he is the artistic {gap} design .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I'm gonna design a remote uh {vocalsound} remote control animal . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Remote control animal .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Exactly . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sorry .
User Interface: Well with the interface , it might be easier to ha to draw here and display there uh .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: That that might be easier . But at the other hand , uh a pen like that is easy to hold in your hand , and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: I think it's easier to draw .
Project Manager: Better to draw with a with {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . With a pen than with a mouse mouse .
User Interface: Than on the , with {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , I m I mean like uh like on here , drawing drawing uh . And then displaying on screen , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mouth . Oh , okay . Yeah . W with this paper it's too mu too expensive . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But what is he uh ?
User Interface: Too expensive , yeah .
Project Manager: Is it a rabbit ?
Industrial Designer: Yes . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do you have a rabbit at home ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No .
Marketing: It's a rabbit with uh broken legs ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: A green rabbit .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Is it a white rabbit f It's the white rabbit from The Matrix .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , exactly . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , then yeah .
User Interface: There , the g white green rabbit .
Industrial Designer: So .
User Interface: {vocalsound} He's a little bit stoned there . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Uh I figured this is a pretty b good impression of a rabbit .
Marketing: Yeah . It will do .
Industrial Designer: Uh uh {disfmarker} Uh well .
Project Manager: Okay . Finishing touch and then we're going further .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Project Manager ? Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: Where does the pen go ? Just uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Have you been uh counting the time ?
Project Manager: Yeah , a little . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . Let's go on then .
Project Manager: Well , I think the dog is the the most uh artistic .
Industrial Designer: Uh I figured the rabbit was actually the most uh impressive . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Don't choose for youself .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh , sorry . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's selfish . Okay , now we're gonna dig into the to the serious stuff .
Marketing: It's pretty abstract .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh the selling price for the remote will be uh twenty five Euro , and the production cost uh may not be more than uh twenty and a half Euro . So uh from my point of view , I don't think it's uh gonna be very uh very high tech , high definition , uh ultra modern uh kinda remote , for twelve uh fift uh twelve and a half Euro .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh the profit we must make with uh the new remote is uh fifty million Euro . So that's a lot . We have to sell uh a lot of uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , how much is it ?
Marketing: Like how much ?
User Interface: Hundred million uh remotes or something ?
Project Manager: Uh I think uh w when the selling price is twenty five , uh uh you got two million , two million remotes .
User Interface: Oh yeah .
Industrial Designer: Twenty million . Two million , oh yeah , two million . Yeah .
Project Manager: But our marketing range is uh , market range is international . So we have uh virtually the whole world we can sell uh we can sell our r remotes to . At least that uh countries which have uh a television .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} So now it's time uh for us to uh going uh to discuss a little uh things . You can think about uh experience with a remote control uh yourself , at home . What you think might be uh a useful uh new feature . What uh what can distinguish our new trendy remote control from all the others . Um so uh let's uh let's uh discuss a little . I'm gonna join you at the table . {vocalsound} Well what what's the most uh important thing at a remote control ?
User Interface: Um well I think the most important thing of a remote control is that you can switch channels . And my opinion is you should keep it as basic as possible . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . So not a not a remote control who uh uh which can uh can be used for television and a D_V_D_ and radio and {disfmarker} Or just only {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . I think so . Uh but I have some points . Can I show them on the on the big screen ? Maybe ?
Project Manager: If you have them on uh {disfmarker} I can uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah , I can find {disfmarker} Uh .
Project Manager: Okay . Oh , in case you want it {disfmarker} This is a dead kind of fly . Between the the the , yeah , the the uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Screen ?
Project Manager: Yeah , be The screens .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Is it possible to open pen drawings in this uh on this screen ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No no no . Only {disfmarker} All the drawings go there , at the left uh {disfmarker} {gap}
User Interface: Uh but um which {disfmarker} The ones we made on the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh , that pen drawings . Uh no , I think uh when it is uh in Word and you have saved it in the Shared Documents folder , you can show it there .
User Interface: Oh , only in Word ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: okay .
Marketing: Okay , I have some uh points from marketing point of view .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Um just the standard thing li things like uh intuitive , uh small , fairly cheap . Uh it's pretty cheap , twenty five Euros . Uh brand independent . Um I think , it doesn't have to matter uh which brand your T_V_ or other thing is . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay . Five minutes .
Marketing: Five minutes ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay , I'll wrap it up quickly . Um I personally think it has to be multi-purpose .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Uh most of the remote c uh remote controls are uh just for one purpose .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: And uh by making it multi-purpose , it uh has a new feature , adds a new feature to the market , and distinguish from uh from current products .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um maybe some other technology than infrared . Uh I rather find it very annoying um , like when someone is standing in front of the T_V_ then you can't switch it . Um {vocalsound} think about um sending it over radio waves or bluetooth .
Project Manager: Okay . Okay .
Marketing: That might be a little bit uh expensive . Um {disfmarker} And something like an L_C_D_ screen .
User Interface: For what purpose ?
Marketing: Um uh like I said here um {disfmarker} Maybe it's easy . It's nice as an added feature feature , that um , {vocalsound} when you're on a certain channel , you can see on the L_C_D_ screen uh what programmes are coming up or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . So it be uh a multi-purpose uh very technically uh high uh
Marketing: From my point of view , yeah .
Project Manager: remote ? Yeah , it must be really uh innovative , technical-wise ?
Marketing: Yeah , it has to be uh {disfmarker} Yeah , our company is very uh good in making new innovative uh things .
Project Manager: Yeah . So yeah , I I agree with you .
User Interface: {vocalsound} We {disfmarker}
Marketing: So i i i i
Project Manager: So we must focus on things who are really uh really add something to uh to {disfmarker}
Marketing: To the current market .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Look , {vocalsound} you got some cheap uh remote controls there . They just uh {disfmarker} Yeah , you got a dozen of 'em .
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: But when you enter a new market with a remote control and
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: uh wanna gain market share
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: you have to do something special , I think .
Project Manager: Yeah . But we have to keep an eye that it's {disfmarker} Uh at the beginning of such a project , it's it's it's very uh cool to talk about , well , this would be cool , that would be cool .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh but we must not uh lose uh sight of the the user uh uh friendly uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , of course .
User Interface: And and the price . {gap}
Marketing: But it's {disfmarker} But but this is just from marketing uh aspect .
Project Manager: Yeah okay . Yeah . Okay .
Marketing: I don't know anything about user interface or {vocalsound} design .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: {gap} And that's because we have him . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And and him . {vocalsound}
User Interface: And him . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , uh next meeting will start in thirty minutes . So uh you uh will have uh individual actions where I presume uh will be some feedback , uh via the m the mail . Um {vocalsound} the the the Industrial uh Designer has to uh look at the working design . {vocalsound} Uh the User Interface Designer has to look at the technical functions . So that's the thing we uh discussed .
User Interface: Yeah . Um one thing uh ,
Project Manager: Yeah ?
User Interface: we must first agree on uh what we're going to m going to make . Do we {disfmarker} Are we going to use um it it for multiple systems ? Or uh {disfmarker} We should have some agreement on that before we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . Um wha
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm uh I I don't think we have to be , we have to agree on that . Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I figure we could get back to it on the next meeting actually .
Marketing: I think th that's a pha Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: That's a phase further .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Ju just uh make some mock-ups , some some general ideas .
User Interface: Ah okay .
Marketing: And and then we can plan {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: We can plan further , I think .
Project Manager: Yeah . But maybe , because uh you are working on the user requirements , you are working on the technical functions , we uh must uh have a little or kinda uh uh uh {disfmarker} How do you call it ? Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Consensus on the , what we're gonna do .
Project Manager: Uh a little plan on on what we're going to do . So you don't uh uh come up with the user requirements who don't fit the the the the technical functions at all . Some basic things we co we want to going to do . Uh I think that's well uh {disfmarker} Yeah . Will come in handy .
Marketing: Mm yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I don't know . You decide . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: You're the Project Manager .
Project Manager: W {vocalsound} He says {disfmarker}
User Interface: if the technical functions have to be designed , I I've gotta know for what kind of machines they will be .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Or do we use it a text screen ? Or uh will it be with uh with bluetooth or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well , th that's that's really a step further . But if you say uh {vocalsound} is it uh uh one way or multi-purpose , that's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Uh tha that's a same step further .
Project Manager: Why ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , actually it is .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Why ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Then looking at individual components ,
Marketing: Uh .
Industrial Designer: so that's actually a f step further .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Like we all have a list of uh things that has to b that have to be in it , or how it has to be like . And then in the next meeting we decide
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we can take it from there .
Marketing: w what it's gonna be .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I agree uh , we can take it from there .
Marketing: A And then you s then you can delete uh
Industrial Designer: Or edit .
Marketing: the o the obsolete uh details .
Project Manager: Okay . So uh
Marketing: I think .
Project Manager: each individually i individually uh must think on what's uh at uh his point of view is the most important . And uh then we're going to fit uh all the pieces together the next meeting .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I must finish off now ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: so it's over . You uh will receive specific specific instructions uh by your personal coach . And I see you in uh thirty minutes . Thank you .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay , cheers .
User Interface: Sorry .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Be careful .
Marketing: Damn .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Success ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . No . Come up .
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Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: I dunno . {vocalsound} Throwing away my toothpick .
User Interface: Hi there .
Project Manager: Yo . Ow .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Nice user interface .
Project Manager: Yeah . What the {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah well , ja well let's just start .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I've uh made a presentation uh but uh I'll open it on the Smartboard , so we can all see it .
Marketing: Right let's see it .
Project Manager: So it's in the project documents because that's what we can find here . Well {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Very nice . Well this is called the the the kick-off meeting . So uh {vocalsound} I'm the Project Manager , so I had to fill it in ,
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: and uh hmm . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Oh sorry . {vocalsound} And {gap} an uh a nice agenda . {vocalsound} Uh we'll do the opening and then uh we'll meet each other , what uh we already do , so , that's not uh very much trouble . I'll I'll show you the the tools we have here , so that we can all use them . Then uh we'll look at the project plan from uh Real Reaction .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We'll discuss about our first ideas about the project , and then uh we'll close the meeting , and then we can uh individually uh do our things and then uh we'll get back here . So {vocalsound} this the opening we'll uh {disfmarker} We have to uh design a new television remote control . You have heard that uh already I think , so .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um we want it to be original , so a nice uh a nice new design . Uh trendy , it's {vocalsound} also for young people , and we have to just uh make it uh modern . And uh friendly , so size does matter . And uh {disfmarker} Well it has to be a have the the right uh the right buttons on the right place , that kin those kind of things .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Other uh {disfmarker} There happen to be uh three stages . {gap} functional , conceptual , and d detailed design . Um so every time we we'll do some individual work , get meeting , talk about it , uh and then go into the next phase . That's just it . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} We have uh these two Smartboards . Um well as I just showed , there's a project management folder , a project document folder on the desktop . It just works exactly the same as a computer . You just uh click on the on the folder and you open the everything you you put in it with your laptop . So you can uh make uh {vocalsound} Words Excel , everything . Um and the w the r uh the rest uh also works the same so uh when you open a notepad you uh you just get your uh things , you can uh draw . This is a uh well a drawing board . {gap} you have a {disfmarker} these different uh functions on the board . You can see them there . So you have a a nice pen , and it's works just like a bal ball pen . {vocalsound} This is just a {gap} . I want to uh {disfmarker} Oh yeah . Of course w {vocalsound} doesn't work any more . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Maybe you should try to write on the on the big white uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes I will {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Does it ? Yeah . It works .
Project Manager: eraser {gap} so .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Wonderful .
Project Manager: It's fantas fantastic . We can uh uh well you can save a file . So if uh we draw we have to save everything . Don't throw anything away .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Uh just we can start a new one , and we just go on , and don't throw anything away .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Just uh let them all uh stand here . We can delete , but we don't do that . Um you can here select a pen , you can draw anything you want . It's a bit uh childish you have to write . It's not as fast as you w you know it , but it does work sometimes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well it's just like a normal uh paint .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So it's gone .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Alright , yep .
Project Manager: Well we are designers , so we have to have a a more uh a Smartboard . So that's fantastic . Um well this uh speaks for itself . We going to try it . So um we all uh are going to uh draw a nice animal on this board ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: not my idea . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Alright , your favourite animal ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes our your favourite . So um I'm to going to have to draw a kangaroo ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but I'm going d I'm not going to . I'm just uh going to uh well draw a nice uh beast
Marketing: {vocalsound} Grizzly bear . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: w I dunno what I'm going to design .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh um {vocalsound} doesn't {disfmarker} oh .
Industrial Designer: I hope this was part of the assignment and not uh your uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , 'kay . Hmm ?
Industrial Designer: I hope this was part of the assignment and not uh your personal uh enjoyment .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I just said it's not my idea
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: but I am the Project Manager ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and officially this is my idea . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I I I {vocalsound} I understand . Alright .
Marketing: We're kinda losing time , though .
Project Manager: what ?
Marketing: We're losing time , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ah {vocalsound} the first the first meeting is just a bit uh loose , loosen up , a bit uh meeting each other
Industrial Designer: {gap} so start {disfmarker}
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: {gap} well uh uh nice yeah . {vocalsound} Sh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yep yes .
Project Manager: I hope our Industrial Designer does this better because uh this is uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Don't uh count on it .
Project Manager: No {vocalsound} {vocalsound} so a a few legs .
Marketing: Do we have to guess ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes yes
Marketing: {vocalsound} A hippo ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: guess . {vocalsound} Well I should make it an hippo now . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think it's a mouse or a rat .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No I don't think so .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh . Oh I know it .
Project Manager: Well what is it , huh ?
Industrial Designer: It's a hedgehog .
Marketing: I don't know how to call it .
Project Manager: Yeah
Marketing: A hedgehog ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} difficult English word . I didn't knew it myself {gap} . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Well I'm amazed uh about your uh drawing skills . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Our characteristics sum it up . Well it's uh very {vocalsound} uh painful
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {disfmarker} {vocalsound} those kind of thing . So we can uh just uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We're going back and now uh our Industrial Designer can uh draw its uh most favourite animal .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I am the Industrial Designer .
Marketing: Alright . Thank you .
Project Manager: Huh .
Industrial Designer: Chief , I am the Industrial Designer .
Project Manager: Oh uh but this uh marketing designer .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker} It's pr it resembles {vocalsound} the animal drawn by {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: It's {gap} . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: what kind of animal is that then ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I think {disfmarker} can I say it ?
Marketing: Yeah sure .
Project Manager: Uh it {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's a rabbit . {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} Looks very nice , right ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It looks amazing .
Project Manager: No no no . What are you going to do ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: We want to erase it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No no .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No no save it and start a new uh {disfmarker} save it and start a new black uh doc {gap} a blank document .
Industrial Designer: These are very impor {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yes .
Industrial Designer: These are very important documents , of course , uh these drawings , uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah well we have to save everything
Marketing: Yes uh right .
Project Manager: so now um the next one uh {disfmarker} {gap} and then save it and start an blank document .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Thanks .
Marketing: You go man .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . There's also different colours and different uh well pen widths uh the line the the thickness thickness .
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: So um well you should uh try it but uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I should have made mine a white rabbit . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well y y y you could have but uh {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: And he deliberately draws a animal we don't know the English word for .
Project Manager: It speaks for itself .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} What the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It looks like an uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: uh just a duck . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It looks like that beast from Sesame Street .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Nice . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Big bird . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Is it a duck ?
Marketing: You're standing in front of it ,
Industrial Designer: It's it's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is it a plane ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: I can't see it . Alright , thank you . Yeah it's a bird , but what kind of bird ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It doesn't draw uh circles uh that easy uh .
Industrial Designer: Do we have to uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: You have to push harder .
Project Manager: Yeah just a bit a bit childish ,
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: a bit {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: But we have uh {vocalsound} do we have to name the specific species of the bird ?
Marketing: Release your anger .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh no I don't .
Industrial Designer: No ?
User Interface: It's just a bird .
Project Manager: Well uh save the document
Industrial Designer: Well wonderful .
Project Manager: and then uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then a a new blank document for {gap} . {gap} uh will uh choose a new colour and a new pen width so w we can all see it .
User Interface: Here you go .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Why do I have to do the difficult tasks ?
Project Manager: No well first
Industrial Designer: Uh pen {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah that's {gap} .
Project Manager: And then you go to format I think {vocalsound} , and current colour {gap}
Industrial Designer: Uh current colour .
Project Manager: you choose a new colour . {vocalsound} And a new pen width uh {gap} also format .
Industrial Designer: I like uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: oh they don't have pink . {vocalsound} Oh b oh {vocalsound} think this is uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's not like in paint . Line width .
Industrial Designer: Uh ? Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And you can choose a nice one .
Industrial Designer: Line width .
Project Manager: Width width .
User Interface: Width .
Project Manager: With each other .
Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound} fifteen .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: And I can draw ?
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} So . Just a wa that's the way we do {gap}
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: it's quite easy .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's a pussy cat .
Marketing: It's a cat . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh Pussy . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh the line width is too thick , but oh well .
Project Manager: Well then you change it . And erase things .
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} What ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's a pig . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It smiles nicely .
Project Manager: Super pig . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Now {vocalsound} I have to change the line width . {vocalsound} Uh one {vocalsound} {gap} .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah yeah yeah
Industrial Designer: These are {gap} whiskers , you know .
Project Manager: we know . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: Uh well I think it's obvious right now .
Project Manager: Yes alright . It's a cat . {vocalsound}
Marketing: No it looks great .
Industrial Designer: Miaow .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well if this isn't obvious {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well well um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Just save it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah save it {vocalsound} and {vocalsound} start a new blank document .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I'll save it {vocalsound} alright uh save . Uh yeah uh blank .
Project Manager: Yep . So that's uh what we're going to use when we uh need it .
Industrial Designer: Well I feel comfortable now .
Marketing: Oh great .
Project Manager: Well {vocalsound} it's terrific , eh ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Thanks for this exercise . I feel totally at ease .
Marketing: It's good for group spirit . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah that's it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It certainly is . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We're one big happy family now . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah something like that .
Project Manager: Well then uh the serious uh stuff . We're we want to sell it at twenty five Euros internationally um so um but we dunno what exactly th i it is in dollars , but uh twenty five Euros . Our profit aim is , worldwide , fifty million Euros . So I didn't uh exactly uh calculate how much we have to sell .
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} we want to keep it our costs at twelve and a half Euros so , keep uh that in mind when we uh talk about our uh materials an f and stuff , and uh marketing uh research .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Now then we all uh we can uh sit down and discuss uh what do we think about our current remote controls , first {gap} about design uh about uh aim in the market etcetera ?
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Well uh we c we can sit down uh because uh presentation can wait . We can uh take notes {vocalsound} and uh {disfmarker} Well who has uh some uh remarks about the current uh remote controls ? Please ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well I I didn't have to prepare anything about uh {disfmarker} {gap}
Project Manager: No uh I did . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it's not , it's it's not my task to uh talk about uh experience with current remote controls , but uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well uh just w we're uh four uh if we if we would just have one then {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think it's im it's important to uh look at uh the remote controls of our competitors .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Get the good points uh try to merge them into one universal remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah .
Marketing: On our corporate site I saw uh a new D_V_D_ player uh we're gonna produce .
Project Manager: Yep . That's alright .
Marketing: Maybe it's important to make it compatible with the D_V_D_ player
Project Manager: That would be a nice idea , yes .
Marketing: so you can uh use your television and your D_V_D_ player with the same uh remote control .
Project Manager: Yep yep yep .
Marketing: Furthermore it's important to make it uh acceptable for the whole world , for different cultures , maybe , because we want to we want to {gap} well fifty million ?
Project Manager: Yes fifty million is our aim to a profit , so .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah yeah
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: so a lot of people have to be able to use it .
Industrial Designer: No but uh the b the buttons have to uh have to have uh international recognisable buttons and uh
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Easy to learn .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah that's right .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and numbers and uh that every culture in uh , yeah , people in every country can recognise .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I'll make uh notes and then uh maybe uh {disfmarker} well I'll put it in the project uh folder when I'm done uh just now .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I also think we should not add too many buttons .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: No that's right .
User Interface: Modern day uh remotes have {vocalsound} too much buttons I think .
Project Manager: Y y you don't use uh the half of them that's that's {gap}
User Interface: Precisely .
Project Manager: culture uh international .
Marketing: Maybe we could make one button to switch between D_V_D_ player and T_V_
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: and make the other buttons uh multi-functional or something .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah indeed .
Industrial Designer: Yeah so it doesn't uh become too complicated with too much buttons and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah right .
Project Manager: Yep , and maybe we do uh {vocalsound} we even have uh more than just a D_V_D_ player . Don't we have uh other uh ou
User Interface: Yeah we should make it compatible perhaps with everything we use , we uh we make ?
Project Manager: Uh .
Industrial Designer: And stereo uh s uh audio installations .
Project Manager: We also uh just uh released a T_F_T_ uh thing I saw .
Marketing: Yeah so but th that's kind kind of standard T_ television so it also works on that .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yep .
User Interface: And I think the people who who will buy our uh remote already have some experience with remotes . So we can keep that in mind .
Industrial Designer: Most people do , yeah .
Project Manager: Well yeah .
Industrial Designer: It doesn't {gap}
Project Manager: It doesn't have to be , but we can .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it doesn't have to be {disfmarker}
User Interface: W well it's a n it's a new remote and you don't buy a remote if you don't have anything to uh to control with it .
Project Manager: Well except if we deliver it together with our D_V_D_ .
Marketing: Yeah but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah alright , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: We need to to keep it consistent with other d uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah because we look at competitors
Industrial Designer: Well .
Project Manager: and w if we pick up the good things about that and give it a nice design {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Yeah but it's {disfmarker} it has to be useable .
Industrial Designer: It has to be different and familiar at the same time .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: we could use another form or shape or colour , that kind of things .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: {gap} yeah the shape will will have to be recognised . I thought about uh like most uh remote controls uh are uh a long box shaped thing {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: you can make it uh triangle shaped ,
User Interface: Well we we could make more more oval or something , and and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but that's not uh very recognisable .
Marketing: {vocalsound} No .
Project Manager: Oo
Industrial Designer: Oval ?
Project Manager: N we can use uh it as a as a game pad .
User Interface: Yeah or so
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So {vocalsound} one hand has the beer , so the other hand uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well yeah it's new . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} . Not with two hands . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah , right .
User Interface: {gap} but young people want something different
Marketing: No {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: and it is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well i we already uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah but it's quite important that it fits .
Project Manager: one of our aims is that it has to be original and trendy so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh but it ha it has to be m
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah . But you still have to know it's a remote and not another {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well there has been done a lot of researches about remotes uh we have to {disfmarker} we can imagine uh
User Interface: Yeah alright .
Project Manager: because it's a long time uh on the market . So the the form will have {vocalsound} been uh tested out so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah so the long box uh shaped thing must be uh , yeah , useful
Project Manager: Yes . Well {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: or else uh they would have been ano another shape .
Project Manager: for me personally I have a {vocalsound} a lot of remotes uh at home but {vocalsound} those ones that have a a round ending and uh well uh just an uh square uh middle {vocalsound} I don't like to use them . I have uh have to {disfmarker} it has to fit my hands .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: When it falls over it and I just have {disfmarker} and then the button that I use most has to be here .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah
Marketing: It shouldn't be boxy .
Industrial Designer: a lo {gap} the long box shape yeah . You have to {vocalsound} use one hand .
Project Manager: It f it fits your hands and then you just push the button that you use most with {gap} thumb .
Marketing: Nah {disfmarker} I don't agree with the long box uh shape {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Why not ?
Marketing: it it has to be custom made for the hand .
User Interface: Yeah it doesn't fit {gap} .
Project Manager: Tho tho those new D_V_D_ players on the market do have those .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But it does fit in the hand if you hold it like this , and you can make it another shape ,
Marketing: Yeah but if you shape it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but then you have {disfmarker}
User Interface: No if y if you look at new Phillips uh D_V_D_ {gap} with their uh remotes {vocalsound} pl players {vocalsound} they they are the new remotes aren't box shaped .
Marketing: If {disfmarker}
Project Manager: D_V_D_ players . Yes . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: W no w what else ?
Marketing: No that's ol old fashioned .
Industrial Designer: I di
User Interface: Well {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah well but uh what what what do you suggest then ?
User Interface: Yes uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I can imagine that us
User Interface: Well {vocalsound} most of {gap} of them are are somewhat thicker at the end , and get um yeah thinner towards the uh the other end .
Marketing: Yeah right . It fits in your palms .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Well {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: but it's still then uh the the long box , uh but then with some uh round uh {vocalsound} round forms in it to fit your hand ,
User Interface: Yeah it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm ?
Project Manager: A it h it has it it has a that's tha th th shape that it fits your hand .
Marketing: Um .
Industrial Designer: but it's it's still {disfmarker} Yeah yeah al alright
Project Manager: That's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but but it's still it's still {gap} sort of box , yeah .
Marketing: {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah yea
Industrial Designer: It it has round forms
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but it in the end it's still the box , so that's what I mean .
Marketing: Yeah but it has it has to fit your hand .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah I understand , but {disfmarker} no no I don't mean an entire box like completely square
Marketing: It shouldn't be too boxy , you know .
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: It's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} No no no .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but a also with round edges of course ,
User Interface: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: but in in in at the end it's still this long {vocalsound} box shape with convenient uh round uh shapes uh {vocalsound} to fit .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right maybe something like this
Industrial Designer: Yeah yes {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} and then a button here to switch between {vocalsound} different systems like D_V_D_ player
Industrial Designer: I thought about something like that . Yeah .
Marketing: and so you can {disfmarker} I've {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: A big recognisable button on top or something .
Marketing: Yeah right , and I do think we have to keep this kind of idea with the with the numbers and {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: We have five minutes left .
Industrial Designer: The buttons should uh also be not too small , not too big , of course ,
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes
Industrial Designer: and uh n uh uh not too close uh together .
Project Manager: uh that's {vocalsound} yep .
Marketing: But it should be possible to to um make it ap apparent that there are two functions for every button .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh .
Marketing: So there has to be some space between the buttons .
Industrial Designer: Yeah of course uh to uh to uh to have icons to explain the different functions .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah right right ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: and maybe we should use colours .
User Interface: Yeah {gap} maybe we can um just like on cell phones those um well {gap} {vocalsound} you can you can put on on them ,
Industrial Designer: Colours , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Ha .
User Interface: and so you can customise your uh your own remote with different colours or or special paint jobs {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's kinda trendy . Yeah right .
Project Manager: Sound nice . Yes .
User Interface: I dunno but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think we have to talk also about uh the the materials for um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well it's just uh about our first ideas now
User Interface: Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Project Manager: so I think individually we'll have to uh come up with ideas for the next meeting about these materials and markets etcetera .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right . But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes ?
Industrial Designer: Already thought about something tha {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think it's uh it's important to uh notate all the the decisions that we make ,
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: so we {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well thirty minutes we have . So um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: This is about uh what we are going to uh do uh . You'll get specific instructions when you're back in your room so uh it's uh logical uh . I think .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} No problem .
Project Manager: Oh and uh that's uh that's all . So we'll just get a notice that the the meeting is uh over .
Industrial Designer: Yeah now we can still talk about the material ,
Project Manager: Yeah yes say .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: we have some some minutes left uh {gap} I w wrote down uh that the case should be plastic of course , hard plastic , the buttons should be uh rubbery I think uh .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah it shouldn't be too heavy .
User Interface: {gap} .
Project Manager: Well I have had remotes that um they had uh the function of the buttons was about uh uh a layer over the buttons
User Interface: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: No n n
Project Manager: and when I've had use it much it was gone . So it has to be made in the buttons I think .
User Interface: Yeah that's bad , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah .
Project Manager: It has to uh not be loose .
User Interface: Yeah that's important {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Alright . And of course there are several electrical cables in it to uh {vocalsound} to connect things uh to each other .
Project Manager: Yeah . Is there an a universal uh universal way of um transmitting from the remote to the television so it's all about uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think so .
Marketing: Yeah it's univ yeah yeah yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's a a common stan standard way {gap}
Project Manager: It's not that in China it's different ?
Marketing: Yep .
Industrial Designer: infrared beams an infrared beam I think {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah . But y you can have uh of course different between D_V_D_s and televisions and between {disfmarker}
Marketing: And you can use {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It it's a we we make an a universal remote so it ha has to work with uh all kinds of brands and things .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . But our T_V_s are mostly made in China and that sort of country , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Probably yes .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: China rules . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And have {disfmarker} well yeah I've wrote something down about how it works . {vocalsound} The user presses a button and with an infrared beam it signals the television set accordingly ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But are {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but that's pretty obvious , I think . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Are we going w uh with the front uh fronts uh idea ?
Project Manager: Well I think uh w we can look into that in the in the next uh thirty minutes .
Marketing: I think {vocalsound} we should make it universal
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: and you can always use a front front on it , you know ? You can use it {vocalsound} just plain
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: {gap} .
Marketing: but you can {vocalsound} {disfmarker} To make it more trendy .
Project Manager: Well j just y you get a n a normal front with it , but you can change them uh when you buy the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: Yes . Yes .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: And we should uh dispatch those kind of fronts fronts a a around the world so uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Well you can make profit with them , and it's {vocalsound} a way to make them trendy .
Project Manager: Well th those fifty million don't uh don't se sells itself {vocalsound} so we have to uh make uh some extra effort like fronts uh .
Industrial Designer: Well but th but the standard front will be uh just grey or something
User Interface: Yeah alright {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Yeah right .
User Interface: Yeah normal .
Industrial Designer: uh b a simple colour not not very flashy .
Project Manager: Yes . Yeah well it has to it h it has to fit the the te television and D_V_D_ set we are going to sell ,
User Interface: No a colour everyone accepts .
Project Manager: so if they are uh black and black black and silver we'll make them black and silver so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Pink television sets {vocalsound} pink remote , {gap} .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . {gap} standard .
Marketing: But people of often don't like bright colours or something .
Project Manager: {gap} .
Marketing: We have to make it grey or s or black .
User Interface: Well young people s li
Marketing: Yeah but then you can use {vocalsound} a a front .
User Interface: Yeah yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I must not forget my pen the next time . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well if if you {disfmarker} yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: If you have a a a television room for little children and you make a if if you buy a a pink front they'll they'll love it . I think .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah that's right .
Project Manager: But that's uh marketing uh research you can uh you can ask uh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah or a t Teletubby front . {vocalsound} Yeah yeah yeah . I will investigate .
Project Manager: Yes . {vocalsound} Well our user interface you can uh maybe uh {gap} I don't know what your specific instructions will be , but uh probably about uh the precision of the buttons and and those kind of things and what buttons will have to be on the uh remote . And you will look into the technical design and um form , I think .
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah also the the look and feel uh of the the remote's also my task , yeah .
Project Manager: Or something like that . Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: What's the uh url or the website 'cause I didn't get {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: Yeah I uh w was wondering that too .
Project Manager: Euro ?
Industrial Designer: Y you went to the company website {gap} .
Marketing: It's {disfmarker} Yeah yeah yeah just if you start up your Internet Explorer {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well it it it's {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: if you uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's the the the start uh starting page uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh oh right oh well I didn't uh use it {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Finish meeting now . Oh alright . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well uh we're going to back uh back into our rooms so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Well that's great .
User Interface: Next meeting is in {disfmarker}
Project Manager: In thirty minutes , but uh I think it will be {disfmarker} you will be warned uh through your laptop uh to get over here .
User Interface: Thirty minutes .
Marketing: Thirty minutes .
User Interface: Yeah alright it's it's handy to know {gap} {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I'll have to restore my uh my desktop uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Very handy to know .
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's totally broken . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because uh {vocalsound} it's it's the half of the normal size . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right see you in half an hour then .
Project Manager: Oh right , oh .
User Interface: Oh . {vocalsound} Goodbye . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Ma {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: W
Marketing: Oh {disfmarker}
User Interface: S
Project Manager: W {vocalsound} that was a nice meeting .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} .
User Interface: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Right uh see you in thirty minutes then . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , see you . {vocalsound}
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Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence this morning. Can I ask if there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 3 this morning then is a scrutiny session on early childhood education and care, and I'm very pleased to welcome Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Jo-anne Daniels, director of communities and tackling poverty at Welsh Government; and Nicola Edwards, deputy director of the childcare, play and early years division in Welsh Government. Thank you all for your attendance. We’re very much looking forward to the session. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: Good morning, Deputy Minister. What are your primary objectives? Is it supporting the development of children or getting parents into work?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, I think you'll be aware from the range of programmes that we've got that we do feel it’s important to support both children and parents. There's obviously lots of evidence to show how important the early years are for children, how important they are for their development, and so, that is one of our primary objectives. But we also know how important it is for parents to have stable jobs, reasonably paid, so that can also help with the development of the children. So, we really see it that our plans are for both parents and children, and we believe that a high-quality, early-childhood education and care system can provide that. And, of course, in terms of when we talk about jobs as well, I think it’s really important to remember that the childcare system is a big employer as well and a very important employer. So that, actually, itself provides jobs.
Hefin David AM: So, the evidence we've seen suggests that, historically, Governments in the UK and devolved have focused on primarily getting parents into work. So, are you suggesting then that your focus is to change that and move towards early child development?
Julie Morgan AM: No, what I'm saying is that we want to give parents the opportunity to work. We don't want childcare to be a barrier to parents working because we think that working is one the best routes out of poverty, but we do also want to make sure that children have the greatest experience that they can have in the early years. So, we see it as one.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And that's quite a policy challenge to deliver both at the same time.
Julie Morgan AM: The situation as it is is complex, and I think it needs simplifying. It is a challenge, but it’s probably one of the most important challenges we've got in Government, because what we offer to families with young children is one of the most important things we do.
Hefin David AM: And in your evidence to the committee, you said that the Welsh Government’s approach 'will build on a wide variety of programmes that are continually developing in order to support parents, families and children during the early years.' And you've just said you want to simplify that. How do you simplify that, particularly with regard to the provision of funding and the way these things connect from the birth of a child into school? How will simplification look, and what will happen?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, we're not at the stage of being able to say what it will look like at the moment, but we're looking at ways of simplifying, because I think it’s absolutely right, it is a very complex system, because it’s grown up from all different routes. But we are having lots of pilot projects that are looking at ways of simplifying the system. We have got pathway projects in, I think it’s eight local authorities, who are looking at ways of joining up the whole system. So, we are looking at that, and I absolutely except that it is very complex and we want to find ways of making it simpler and easier to understand. So, we are working with local authorities and health boards to see how we can actually work together and simplify things.
Hefin David AM: And it's good to hear that that's your objective. Can I just come back to the first thing you said: 'We can't say yet what we're going to do'?
Julie Morgan AM: No.
Hefin David AM: So, when will we have a policy plan and something that we can interrogate in more detail?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, I think we are near getting to an announcement where we will be able to say what direction we're going in, and because we have had—. Some of this work has been going on for a year or so, and we're getting the results of those pathfinder projects coming in. So, when we do have all those results, we will be able to say the direction that we want to go in, and I hope we'll be able to do that very soon.
Hefin David AM: Before Christmas?
Julie Morgan AM: I hope so.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And finally from me—
Julie Morgan AM: I'm sorry I can't say too much about that because we haven't actually—. We need to—.
Hefin David AM: Well, it does sound like something is imminent.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And that's as far as you're willing to go. And if that's as far as you're willing to go, then I'll stop asking.
Lynne Neagle AM: I've got a supplementary from Siân.
Hefin David AM: Okay.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, that's fine.
Sian Gwenllian AM: I just want to understand a little about the pilot, the pathfinders in eight local authority areas. Is the focus there on the child or is it on parents returning to work?
Julie Morgan AM: The focus is on an early years system, but we've worked both locally and nationally. So, it's looking at both. I mean, actually, I think, perhaps, Nicola, would you like to or one of you like to describe one of the programmes?
Sian Gwenllian AM: And can you just explain the vision? Is it a child-centred early years provision that we're thinking of in these pathfinder—?
Jo-Anne Daniels: So, in 'Prosperity for All', we set out that early years was one of the key priority areas, and within that we said that we wanted to create a more joined-up and more responsive system. So, when we talk about a system, we're talking about the services that are provided by health boards, so health visiting, midwifery, speech and language support, other kinds of therapeutic services, as well as all the important services that local authorities are providing, such as support for parenting, advice and guidance, employment support and childcare, obviously. And we've got eight pathfinders. I'll try and remember each of them. So, Flintshire, Newport, Blaenau Gwent, Neath Port Talbot, Swansea, Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire—and then I've missed one, I think, because I've only got to seven—who have been working with us to look at how all of those services are currently delivered in their local area and whether and how they can reorganise those services to improve accessibility, to improve take-up, but essentially to improve the efficacy of those programmes in terms of supporting children, but often, obviously, in supporting children you have to support parents too and support the home.
Sian Gwenllian AM: So, would you say it's a child-centred approach?
Jo-Anne Daniels: Absolutely, because it's about making sure that we deliver the best start in life for children in Wales, but obviously parents are a critical element of that, so can't be excluded.
Lynne Neagle AM: And how long have they been going for?
Jo-Anne Daniels: So, those eight pathfinders started their work in—I think it was—February this year. And they're still in the very early stages in terms of actually unpicking and mapping the current provision of services across their areas and then moving on to the stage where they'll develop proposals for how they might change the delivery of early years.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Julie.
Julie Morgan AM: Just to say also, the one in Flintshire is also testing the impact of consistent funding rates for education and childcare. So, that's been going longer than the others. So, that's another important area because there's an evaluation of that project under way at the moment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you.
Jo-Anne Daniels: Sorry, but Caerphilly was the one that I forgot to mention.
Lynne Neagle AM: Oh dear. [Laughter.]
Hefin David AM: That's absolutely unforgivable. [Laughter.]
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin. [Laughter.]
Julie Morgan AM: Very significant.
Hefin David AM: In your report, the 'Alignment of the Childcare Offer for Wales to the Foundation Phase', one of the recommendations was that 'The Welsh Government, local authority education and childcare policy and delivery teams could merge'. So, looking behind the scenes, those disparate parts of policy, delivering the foundation phase and childcare offer should merge. Is that the case? Has that been put under way and should we be looking at this structure in more depth?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, probably not at the structure at this time because the report that you're referring to was looking at the first year of the delivery of the childcare offer and it did make a number of points, which we have taken on board. For example, we issued guidance last year regarding the delivery of the foundation phase, which supports widening the number of non-maintained settings that are able to deliver early education and we're also supporting co-location and partnership working between education and childcare providers through our capital investment programme. I think it's about £81 million that we put into the capital investment where we are developing childcare facilities co-located with the education facilities, because that was one of the things that came out from this report you're referring to. And, I mean, obviously, early years is one of the key priorities within 'Prosperity for All' and, obviously, education sits within one portfolio with the Minister for Education, and childcare is with me. But we're doing what we can to work together to try to bring those together, and that was one of the proposals in that report. But it's still very early to think about, at this stage, a structural change.
Hefin David AM: And I remember when you were on the committee here with me, sitting next to me, we had those discussions about co-location. I know the problem with not having co-location is that you could end up seeing a child travelling between three or more locations during the course of a day. Are you suggesting now that the actions you're taking will resolve that issue universally, or will it lead to a piecemeal resolution? And, if so, to what extent, what percentage of children will see that resolved as an issue?
Julie Morgan AM: Certainly, the co-location is not going to solve it universally because although we've been able to develop a lot of new facilities, or build on old facilities, there will be a lot of areas that we won't have covered. So, I can't say that there's going to be a situation where everything is going to be co-located because I don't think that would be feasible, and,for some of the providers, they wouldn't be in a position to move to a school. But ideally it's a good situation, but, certainly, I think the discussions that there were on the committee, it's not ideal to take children for long distances between different providers, let alone the effect it has on the climate change issue. It's whether it's good for children as well. So, I can't say that they will ever be co-located, but as I said in response to your earlier question, we are encouraging the development of the foundation phase in non-maintained settings, which, obviously, is quite significant.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. I've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair. What is the Welsh Government doing to address the big differences in the amount of early childhood education and care provision available in different parts of Wales?
Julie Morgan AM: Right. Well, thank you very much for that question. I mean, obviously, it would be good to see a greater degree of consistency, but I think it's important to acknowledge that there are reasons for that variation. Now, early education, of course, is the responsibility of the Minister for Education, and we are aware that different local authorities have adopted different patterns of providing early education. For example, local authorities are funded to provide 10 hours minimum of the foundation phase for three and four-year-olds across Wales, but there's quite a variance in how much is actually provided, with some local authorities providing a lot more historically. So, it does mean that there is a different pattern across Wales, according to what local authorities do. But what I could say is, of course, the quality is very good, as the Estyn reports have shown; that the quality provided, the delivery of the foundation phase, is very good. But it does vary in terms of what is offered throughout Wales, and that is the decision of the local authorities, and it is a historical thing. I refer to this pilot in Flint, which is trying to test paying the same rate for foundation phase and childcare. We're going to have an independent evaluation on that soon, in November this year, so that will help us. Obviously, I think local authorities' role in all this is absolutely crucial because they are the local, nearest people to decide how things develop in their own areas. And then, of course, we've got Flying Start, which is geographically targeted, which uses the data from income benefit to decide which are the areas where that is being delivered. And that is delivered where the highest proportion of children aged nought to three are living in income-dependent households. So, again, that determines the pattern throughout Wales. With Flying Start being geographically targeted, with the education being determined by the local authorities about how much there is, we know that there is a variance throughout Wales. We'd like to see facilities developed in each local authority throughout Wales that would answer the needs of the families and the children in those areas.
Lynne Neagle AM: Before you move on, Janet, Siân's got a supplementary.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Just in terms of the foundation phase, there have been cuts, of course, in expenditure in that phase. How concerned are you about that and the impact that that will have on the way in which the foundation phase is taught in our schools? The foundation phase is now part of the education improvement grant, which has seen a reduction of 10 per cent, and it has to compete against other expenditure streams within that greater pot of funding. So, are you concerned that money is being lost and that that will have an impact on standards in the foundation phase?
Julie Morgan AM: I haven't seen any evidence. Obviously, I must reiterate the foundation phase does come under the Minister for Education, but I haven't seen any evidence of any standards being lowered, and the reports from Estyn are very good. In fact, I think the foundation phase is one of our great joys, that we absolutely celebrate it, and so I'd be very concerned if I thought there was any drop in standards in the foundation phase, and I certainly haven't had any evidence of that. I would want to guard against that.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Exactly, but if there are fewer teaching assistants in the system because of the cuts, it's going to impact on standards, at the end of the day.
Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to be very careful to see that lower standards are not implemented, because it was groundbreaking when we brought it in, and it has proved to be a great success, so we want to make sure that's guarded.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Going back to my original question about the big differences in amounts of early childhood education and care provision in different parts of Wales, the Welsh and UK Governments have followed a demand-driven approach to the childcare market, with subsidies mainly given to working parents. Is that a mistake? Should it be more universally available?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, some of our provision is universally available in certain areas. For example, the Flying Start provision is universally available in geographically defined areas, and I think that's very important, because that does mean that there isn't stigma, and so,in those areas, everybody can take advantage of it, and yet it is reaching those who are most in need because it's reaching those areas. So, I think that there is a purpose behind that. In terms of when you say demand led, could you elaborate on that?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I know that—we've just had a useful briefing from David Dallimore, and, basically, there is this theory that there are too many resources—the demand-driven approach is based more on certain factors: geographic spread in terms of it being more universal, and whether that's the right way. How do children then mix with peers from different backgrounds, in their own peer or age group?
Julie Morgan AM: It is demand—
Nicola Edwards: [Inaudible.]—because the offer is targeted at working parents—
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, yes.
Nicola Edwards: —obviously, then the amount of availability is based on how many parents apply for it and take it up. Is that the context of demand led in that—
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes.
Nicola Edwards: Right, okay.
Julie Morgan AM: It is universally available to all parents who meet the eligibility criteria of working, and I think what you're saying is that it should be available to everybody.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think the point that Janet's making is that some areas have traditionally got more childcare anyway because they have traditionally had more demand in those areas, so there's not a level playing field to start from. Is that correct?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes.
Julie Morgan AM: I think that, historically, that is definitely true, and when you look at the take-up of the childcare offer, it's certainly taken up in some areas with a very high take-up rate. I think Ynys Môn was nearly 90 per cent or something—
Sian Gwenllian AM: They need more money, because they haven't got enough funding.
Dawn Bowden AM: So does everywhere.
Sian Gwenllian AM: No, to meet the demand.
Julie Morgan AM: In other areas, it's much, much lower—in some of the cities, I know. So, there is a big range in take-up—
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, do you intend to bring something forward to address that?
Julie Morgan AM: We are planning to extend it. We're looking at the possibility of extending it to parents who are in education and training. So, we are widening the offer, yes. Obviously, we have to wait for the evaluation of that. It would be great to be able to offer it to absolutely everybody, but obviously we have got the finance to look at in terms of how we do that. But we are certainly planning to expand it.
Lynne Neagle AM: We've got questions on the offer in a little while. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Does the Welsh Government intend to develop an integrated approach, then, against all settings? If so, given the current inconsistencies, how can quality be assured?
Julie Morgan AM: We are developing a more integrated approach towards the early years. As I've said, we're trying to have the foundation phase operating in more non-maintained settings, and we're already developing that. But Estyn and CIW will continue to inspect and regulate the early years sector to ensure standards, and, since January 2019, CIW and Estyn have moved to joint inspections for the non-maintained settings that are offering the foundation phase. So, that is a very positive move, I think, and is absolutely making sure that standards are maintained, because if we are having the foundation phase in non-maintained settings, that is a challenge where we want to be sure that the standards and the philosophy of the foundation phase are maintained. So, we have got the system of inspection to ensure that.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And finally from me, what specific steps have been put in place to take forward the commitments from the Welsh Government's 2017 childcare/play early years workforce plan to build a better understanding of the workforce's Welsh language skills to enable support for the sector to be targeted and to identify where capacity needs to be built for the future to meet the needs of the early years sector in a bilingual Wales?
Julie Morgan AM: We think this is very important, and we're pleased that 29 per cent of children taking up the childcare offer are in Welsh or bilingual settings, so we think that's very good. We have established a specific programme to develop Welsh language skills in the childcare and play workforce with the National Centre for Learning Welsh, to develop workplace Welsh language skills across the sector. So, we're actually working with that, and I think you've done something with those recently, haven't you? I don't know if you want to—
Nicola Edwards: Yes. So, we have a stakeholder group where we've brought together a variety of people with an interest in the early years, childcare and play sectors, and we had a presentation just last month from the national language centre about the education programmes that they're rolling out, and how this is all coming together, which is quite interesting. We've been working quite carefully to make sure that the variety of work-based learning programmes that we provide and offer are also available in Welsh and bilingually. Recruitment and retention within the childcare and play sector is quite challenging in any case. Recruiting and retaining staff with really good Welsh language skills adds an extra dimension to it, and that it's a point that Mudiad Meithrin makes to us quite regularly, that they do struggle to find staff with the right skills. So, upskilling the existing workforce is a key part of it, but also doing more to attract people in with Welsh language skills in the first place in terms of the training courses that we're taking forward, and thinking about that in the context of the targets within Cymraeg 2050 and the aim to get to one million Welsh speakers. So, as the Deputy Minister said, we've got quite a number of children accessing the offer in Welsh-medium or bilingual settings at the moment. We're going to be doing some baselining work against that in terms of local authorities' Welsh in education strategic plans and education places, and what we can then do to increase the number of childcare places in parallel with that so that you can make sure that you start that pathway through learning Welsh, interacting with education and childcare through Welsh at a much earlier stage.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you've got a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Just on this early point, anybody who's been through the Welsh education system, which is 20 years now, will have some Welsh language skills, obviously to differing degrees. For the entrants that are coming into childcare training now, there are going to be very few of them, realistically, with no Welsh at all, so what's actually being incorporated into the early years care training to make sure, at that stage, that the Welsh language skills are being developed, as opposed to an add-on later on?
Nicola Edwards: You're quite right. Most people coming through the education system will have some awareness of Welsh although I think it's probably important to remember we do also employ people from outside of wales.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, but the majority, being realistic.
Nicola Edwards: But they don't necessarily have Welsh that is appropriate. They've got Welsh that they've developed in school. It's not necessarily appropriate for then teaching that language to children, who may be coming from families who don't use Welsh at home. So, that might be the first interaction that child has with the language. So, there's a lot of that in terms of child development and how you develop children bilingually, particularly if they're coming from English-medium homes, and reinforcing the language in language choices. There will also be some people who are, perhaps—we see this quite a lot in the office—quite confident in terms of speaking Welsh but less so in terms of some of the paperwork, the reporting, the writing and the interacting with parents more officially, which we need to think about as well. But it is mainly about getting people to a point where they can transmit that language onwards in a confident and meaningful way.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And it's ingrained in the early years training.
Nicola Edwards: Yes.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. That's fine. Thank you for that. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move on, you said that 29 per cent of the take-up of the childcare offer is either through Welsh or is bilingual. Have you got any figures about how many children are accessing it in Welsh only?
Nicola Edwards: We will have. It becomes—. With the way we do it, it's because of the way that the setting defines their language category, and that's how we collect it. We do go down to individual child level, although it's anonymised, data collection on a termly basis. So I'll have a look and see if we can send you through the last term.
Lynne Neagle AM: Maybe if the committee could have a note, that would be really useful.
Nicola Edwards: Yes, that's fine.
Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some questions now on childcare from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Deputy Minister, the evaluation of the childcare offer, when it was published last year, said that there was very little evidence currently available to determine what its impact was. You're going to be producing a second evaluation in November this year; do you expect to see some indications now of the impact?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, the evaluation of the first year of the childcare offer was very limited, because the childcare offer wasn't available throughout the whole of Wales. And it was a very early implementation phase. So, obviously it takes time to grow. And the evaluation for year 2, I think, will also show a limited impact for the same reasons. The offer became available across the whole of Wales only last April. So we've only got since last April that it's actually been fully available. And the parental survey was released to parents in June 2019, therefore any impact on parents in the authorities coming on board in the second year will also be negligible. So, it's from the next one, however, we hope that we will get more information.
Dawn Bowden AM: So you think, by the time we get to November 2020, you might have a better picture.
Julie Morgan AM: The evaluation will be more meaningful, we think, then, yes.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. I take that point. What the first year's evaluation did show, however, was that 94 per cent of respondents said that they were already using formal childcare before the offer came into place. A couple of things, really: are you surprised at that, and is that likely to inform the way that you develop the offer in the future?
Julie Morgan AM: No, I'm not surprised at all. When it started off, it was only available in seven local authorities. In terms of how the families found out that it was available, they found it out through the childcare providers, where they already had their children there. So it was absolutely what we would have expected, and that will continue. But, of course, we were not able to fully advertise the childcare offer until it was available in all the local authorities, which was last April. So we are planning, this autumn, quite a big push now to try to make it available to everybody—so everybody knows about it. So, no, this is the pattern we would have expected, and I think anybody who's involved in starting up something in childcare will know you have to wait a number of years before you actually see it being fully taken up.
Dawn Bowden AM: I guess the question that it raises in my mind is: does this mean that, actually, it hasn't been an incentive to get somebody back into work, because they were already in work and already had childcare provision? What you've done is you've directed money to people who were already spending that money anyway. So it hasn't been a move towards getting people into work because they couldn't afford childcare.
Julie Morgan AM: Well I think that that is something that we are moving towards, because the take-up of the offer is actually increasing each month, which is why I call it a great success. At the end of July, we hit almost 16,000 children accessing the offer, which obviously means that there are 16,000 families benefiting from this, and the feedback that we have had from parents is that they have been able to—. They've got more money available, which is obvious, which is great, because obviously more money is available to plunge into the economy and carry out that sort of thing, and we've got examples of parents who've been supported into work through programmes like Parents, Childcare and Employment to begin with, and then have gone on to access the offer. So, that's again a progression. So, I think we are seeing signs that people are moving on, have got more ability to be flexible in the work that they're doing, but I hope that when we look at it again, we will be able to see people actually moving into work because of having the access to childcare.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Before—
Lynne Neagle AM: Are you going to move on? Siân's got a supplementary.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Just a question on funding for the childcare offer. If you foresee that there's going to be more people going to be taking up that offer through the fact that you're marketing it more, what if the same situation arises that has happened on Anglesey? The take-up has been very good there, but the money that the Welsh Government has been allocating to Anglesey doesn't match that. What if it happens in every local authority right across Wales? Are you confident there's going to be plenty of money available to respond to that demand?
Julie Morgan AM: Based on the current levels of take-up and looking at the rates of increase each month, we expect to spend in the region of £50 million to £55 million in this financial year. Our published plans already include the provision of £40 million, and we're absolutely committed to making available the total funding that is needed to deliver on the offer. It is fantastic to see the offer being so well received on Ynys Môn, recognising, as Janet said earlier, it is demand led. We are managing it within the normal budgetary process. Local authorities will get the full funding that is needed. It's this year now that the big increase has happened; the previous two years—
Sian Gwenllian AM: So, local authorities won't have to find the extra money out of their own pots.
Julie Morgan AM: No, absolutely not. This is funded by the Welsh Government.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes. You can assure them.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. You've already alluded to this in answer to Janet earlier on, about extending the childcare offer to those in training and education. You also talk about 'on the cusp' of returning to work. So, I'm not quite sure what 'on the cusp' of returning to work is, but from the committee's point of view, we're very pleased that you've reached that conclusion, because it was one of the recommendations that we had following the scrutiny of the Bill. So, can you say a little more about that, bearing in mind that I'm also conscious that you've told Hefin you're going to be making an announcement shortly? So you may not be able to say too much. But a little bit more about the inclusion of parents in training and education, what 'on the cusp of returning to work' is—what that means from your perspective—and how you've arrived at that decision now, six months into the programme. What is it that's made you move towards that conclusion?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, obviously, the children and young persons committee made a very good case for education and training, in particular; I think that was one of the things that was at the top of the list. What we've committed to do is to review the programme, particularly looking at how we could bring in education and training, and that review will report early next year. So, early next year, we will have a view on how we could go forward. But the other thing that's also happened is that, obviously, with the new First Minister, that was one of his manifesto commitments—that he would bring education and training in. So, we're obviously following the—
Dawn Bowden AM: Because that was one of the key drivers for that as well.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, so that is another of the key drivers, as you said—the committee and what the First Minister said. There are a wealth of programmes supporting parents into education, training or work, and many of those do provide support with childcare costs. But we have, by rolling out this programme, the childcare programme, highlighted some gaps where people have felt that they, particularly people who are in full-time education—and I can think of a number of people who are actually doing PhD studies—who are—the letters may have come in from some of your constituents—not able to access the offer as things stand. So, we are looking at people who are in full-time education and training. We're using the definition by the Office for National Statistics, aren't we, in terms of education and training. And on 'on the cusp of work', maybe that will have to be something we have to look at differently—those people who are actually maybe undertaking very short training programmes, preparation for work, maybe actually having interviews, where they need help with childcare, that they're sort of almost there. So, they may have to be dealt with in a different way, but I think we do want to look at those. This is expanding the offer; it's not making it universal, but it's moving on.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, what are the—? Overall, then, what are the factors that you're having to take into account? Is it going to be what is needed in order to encourage people back into work? Is it going to be cost? Is it going to be a combination of all of those things? What are going to be the key factors that you're going to be looking at?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, the position now is that anybody who fulfills the criteria in terms of the number of hours they work, we would look at that in terms of education and training, and then, this expression 'on the cusp of work' we may have to look at differently, because they may not fulfil those numbers in terms of number of hours training. So, we'll get a criteria, and then they will have access to the childcare offer. But I just have to emphasise that there are ways of getting help with childcare already, and we wanted to make sure we don't duplicate. That's why this field is so complex, shall we say, because there's so many different ways that you can actually get help, and we want to be sure that we don't duplicate—
Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry, Julie. So, all of this is going to be incorporated in this announcement that you're going to be making shortly—
Julie Morgan AM: No, this review will report early next year.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. My final question—
Lynne Neagle AM: Before you move on, sorry, I've got a couple of supplementaries. I've got Suzy, then Siân. Sorry, Dawn.
Suzy Davies AM: Just on the cost element, because if you do roll out this programme, obviously, on the back of evidence through a review, it is going to cost extra money. Early years is one of the eight priority areas for Government. There are fairly generous Barnett consequentials coming from the comprehensive spending review and announcements on schools from the UK Government, and while I accept that you've only got annual commitments there, they're still substantial. How much money have you managed to secure for early years from the most recent announcement, and when have you planned to actually use that, maybe for some of this work?
Julie Morgan AM: Have you got some information on that?
Nicola Edwards: The budget process is ongoing internally, so I think 'secured' is probably a slightly premature phrase.
Suzy Davies AM: Am I allowed to ask instead how much you've asked for, then? All I'm after is some reassurance that you will be getting some of this money, and as it is one of the eight priorities, certainly we would expect to see you getting a substantial amount of money for early years.
Julie Morgan AM: As one of the Government's priorities, we would expect to get any money that came as a result of any Barnett consequentials.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And it will be in the draft budget that we know for sure if it is successful.
Julie Morgan AM: It's all in the process—
Lynne Neagle AM: And the committee will want to look very carefully at that, obviously.
Julie Morgan AM: It's in the process at the moment.
Suzy Davies AM: There we are. Just giving you a good warning.
Lynne Neagle AM: Siân.
Sian Gwenllian AM: How much would it cost to move to a child-centred approach, which means that every child would be able to access the childcare offer, rather than doing it from parents?
Julie Morgan AM: We are looking at that. We're having a longer-term review, in terms of what it would mean if every child had access to the childcare offer. We don't have those figures yet. We've got the one review looking at bringing in education and training. That should report early next year, and then we've got another longer-term review, looking at what a universal offer would mean.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Do we know how many children we're talking about?
Nicola Edwards: Yes. So, there are approximately, at any given time, around 73,000 three and four-year-olds in Wales. There's some slight rounding in the numbers there, but approximately 73,000 at any given time. Based on the current eligibility criteria for the offer, it's about 34,000 children, we believe, are eligible. This does, of course, vary, depending on a whole range of different factors, and we certainly know from what we're seeing from the offer that, even where people are entitled to something, they don't necessarily take it up. And even if they do take it up, they don't necessarily take up their full entitlement, which is also something that we'd have to think about in terms of any modelling on costings.
Sian Gwenllian AM: So, half the children are in non-working families.
Nicola Edwards: It's because of the requirement that, in a two-parent household, both parents must be in work.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes. Two parent. Okay.
Lynne Neagle AM: One of the points that the committee made very strongly in our report on the Bill was that we wanted to see a much more child-centred focus, and one of the issues that came out in scrutiny was whether, actually, three and four-year-olds were the right age to be actually targeting if we're looking at things like child development. Have you given any consideration to the actual age group that's covered when we know that, for many children, it's the first 1,000 days that makes that fundamental difference?
Julie Morgan AM: We are aware that there is a case that says that two years old is a very important time. We are looking at that as part of the overall longer review, yes. We are aware of the information and what you're saying about the younger the better.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, my final question, Chair, thank you, is about the parent, childcare and employment programme, which is jointly funded by the European social fund and Welsh Government. It has been quite successful, in terms of its numbers anyway, in getting economically inactive parents into work. What are the plans for this programme, if and when we leave the EU and we lose the ESF funding for that?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, the programme has recently been extended, with delivery continuing until June 2022, with additional ESF funding of £5.6 million. That's recently happened, and obviously this programme provides intensive employment to parents who are not in education, employment or training or economically inactive and where the childcare is the main barrier, and it has been a very, very successful programme. So, the UK has guaranteed funding for all EU projects approved by December 2020, and this includes the PaCE programme. I think there was also another—. I only heard it verbally. I heard some other guarantees on the radio recently from the UK Treasury about guaranteeing some of these funds. I don't know whether anybody else heard that. But the Welsh Government can only draw on the UK Government guarantee for claims that aren't paid by the European Commission, and so the current arrangements are staying in place.
Dawn Bowden AM: Until when, sorry?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, June 2022.
Dawn Bowden AM: Oh, I see. Yes. So, that's when all the current commitments expire, basically. Yes. So, we don't know—. To do that it would have to be part of Government planning in terms of—
Julie Morgan AM: Well, we don't know what's happening with that—
Dawn Bowden AM: —what would happen beyond that.
Julie Morgan AM: —funding, but there have been some promises from the UK Government recently, but nothing definite.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, we're not holding our breath.
Julie Morgan AM: No.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Siân's got some specific questions now around the Childcare Funding (Wales) Act 2019.
Sian Gwenllian AM: As we know, of course, the work with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs has ended, and I know you weren't the Minister who initiated this process, but what exactly has gone wrong? What are these issues that have come to light that have made you suspend that? It's very frustrating for us, as a committee, who scrutinised that extensively and raised a lot of concerns about that. And a lot of time has been spent talking about this funding Bill, and money—£1 million, I understand—has been wasted, if you like, unnecessarily. So, what exactly has gone wrong? Why aren't you discussing these things with HMRC?
Julie Morgan AM:
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes. So, thank you for that explanation.
Julie Morgan AM: I've got more to say as well.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but for your transparency around your particular view that it needs to be more flexible and expanded upon and, therefore, going down the HMRC route was—
Julie Morgan AM: It would have restricted us a lot.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes. We knew that from the beginning. I mean, that's, you know—. So, it was a principle decision rather than any sort of technical matters to do with the Welsh language standards. That's been cited as one kind of—. But I'm really understanding more now that, really, what it's about is that you want to have a more flexible, and expand on the offer and that this would curtail—going through HMRC would put limits on that.
Julie Morgan AM: That is one of the reasons, but there were issues about the Welsh language, which we can go into in detail, if you'd like. There were some issues about that. They would be able to process things bilingually, and I think that was probably told to the committee when we looked at the HMRC. But, in terms of the Welsh language standards that the Minister has to use, there would be some difficulties in them doing it.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But would you say that your main change came about because you wanted to be more flexible rather than any difficulties—
Julie Morgan AM: One of the major reasons, I think—
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Good.
Julie Morgan AM: But there are—. As I say, there are other reasons. Those technical reasons probably do end up being quite important—
Sian Gwenllian AM: But the committee was told by the previous Minister that HMRC wouldn't have any problem at all with delivering according to the Welsh language standards.
Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to add something to this?
Nicola Edwards: So, in terms of some of the technical issues we had, if you want to start with the bilingual provision and the Welsh language standards, HMRC do provide a bilingual service at the moment for their customers in line with their Welsh language scheme, and I think we can all appreciate that schemes are quite different from the requirements of the standards. And there were some issues when we got into the detail of the standards that the Welsh Ministers are required to deliver to that caused some concerns in terms of how HMRC were going to do it, particularly in terms of the multiple IT systems that go into building up the childcare services. So, for example, there are a number of what are called 'special characters' in the Welsh alphabet, such as the to bach, for example. The HMRC IT system has some issues with that.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, well, with due respect, the to bach has always been there—
Nicola Edwards: Oh, yes, I completely agree. Unfortunately, however—
Sian Gwenllian AM: —and HMRC would have been able to tell you, really early on, you would have thought, that it was—. I don't really want to go into it, because I think we've got to the crux of why HMRC was dropped. I think it's been dropped because Julie feels that the offer needs to be more flexible, and I can understand why you would say that.
Julie Morgan AM: If we bring in training and education, for example, we wouldn't be able to do that via the HMRC, it would have to be done by the local authorities. Foster parents have to be done via the local authorities. Any people of immigration status of no resource from public funds, that would have to be done via the local authorities. And with the local authorities also wanting to do it—. I mean, there are other things with using HMRC—if any changes were made with the English offer, for example, because this would be delivered via HMRC with the English offer, that would cause difficulties for the Welsh offer. So, we wanted something more flexible. I don't know if there's anything more you want to add on that.
Jo-Anne Daniels: The only thing I'd add is that—and, again, I think the Minister has referred to this—the costs that HMRC presented us with at the end of the discovery phase were significantly higher than the costs that had initially been outlined and that we outlined to the committee in the regulatory impact assessment. So, our conclusion is that we can deliver a cheaper system and a system that has the flexibility that the Deputy Minister has referred to by working with local authorities rather than HMRC. So, there is an important issue around value for money as well and making sure that the investment that we're making into developing the national system is one that—that, in a sense, that investment stays in Wales. So, obviously, the money that we're paying over to HMRC to run the system would be supporting HMRC and their employees wherever they may be based, many of them not based in Wales; investment in local authorities to administer the system means that we're retaining more of that investment here.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Well, I congratulate you on persuading local government and WLGA to change their minds, because they actually told this committee that they favoured the HMRC option—and this is only going back a few months—because it will remove—and this is quoting them— 'it will remove the administrative burden of receiving applications and checking eligibility from local authorities'— blah, blah, blah, blah. So, they've obviously changed their minds as well, which is, you know—. I congratulate you on that, but it does present us as a committee with a little bit of a problem, really, because, if we're told one thing a few months ago and then we're told something completely different today, you know, evidence—we have to go on evidence that we've heard, and the evidence has changed now.
Julie Morgan AM: I think, during the period since it was discussed on the committee, the work with the HMRC has helped highlight to us where we needed to go. So, I think we did learn a lot and it certainly has helped show to us where we think is the best place to go. I would like to pay tribute to the local authorities, because they've been great partners in this and they're very positive about moving forward keeping the work. And there's also a feeling that, because they are so much closer to the local public than HMRC is, they're able to build up links with families and help with some of these difficult issues. Because I'm sure many of you may have had individual cases—I certainly have—where there's been quite a lot of complexity about helping people fill in the forms and look at their eligibility. So, I say well done to the local authorities. And thanks to the HMRC, because we've had nothing but a very positive relationship with them.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you've got a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. Ms Daniels, you referred to value for money. How much is it actually going to cost to change this system from being a temporary arrangement with local authorities to a permanent one? And how much more is it going to cost for the more flexible system that you have in mind? They're not going to do this for nothing. How much extra are you giving them, and will they use it for this? How are you ensuring it's used for this?
Jo-Anne Daniels: So, at the moment, local—. So, two things. Just to start by saying the eligibility checking process is not undertaken by all 22 local authorities.
Suzy Davies AM: No, no, I realise that. Yes, I got all that.
Jo-Anne Daniels: So, part of the reason for using 10 is to try to ensure that we build economies of scale and that we have a more efficient operation. Those authorities that undertake that function are given a specific grant in order to do that. That grant is ring-fenced to that purpose.
Suzy Davies AM: Could you give us an idea of the price tag?
Jo-Anne Daniels: At the moment, it's about £2.5 million.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, just as a round figure—that's fine.
Nicola Edwards: Just for the administration. They get separate funding for the childcare, obviously.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you.
Jo-Anne Daniels: So that, as I said, is a ring-fenced sum that they use to administer the offer. We are now starting the detailed work to define the new system requirements so that we will have a single application process across Wales, moving forward. As part of that work, we'll need to consider the detailed costings, but our initial estimate suggests that it would be less than the cost proposed by HMRC.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, when those costings are worked up, perhaps we could have a note comparing the two figures.
Jo-Anne Daniels: Yes, we would be very happy to share more detail on that.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Siân.
Sian Gwenllian AM: If it became a universal offer, would those costs reduce? Would there be so much bureaucracy involved in checking eligibility and stuff if every child was open to the offer?
Jo-Anne Daniels: So, clearly, if every child is eligible, then a large part of the process falls away in terms of the need to verify income and so on. That doesn't mean that there's no administration. For example, with the foundation phase, which is universally available, there is an application process and there is an administrative function that sits alongside that. At this point in time, I couldn't give you any indication of—
Sian Gwenllian AM: But it would be substantially less, wouldn't it, because they wouldn't have to do all these eligibility checks and all those things?
Nicola Edwards: They wouldn't have to do the eligibility checks, but they would still have to make payments to the childcare providers and make sure they were paying for the right number of hours in respect of each child. So, parents would still need to tell them where their child was going, and there would still need to be some work alongside that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Siân, do you want to ask about the Welsh language?
Sian Gwenllian AM: I think we've—. I'm happy with that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Really—?
Sian Gwenllian AM: I don't think that that was the real reason why the change happened.
Julie Morgan AM: One of the reasons.
Lynne Neagle AM: Nevertheless, the committee was given very concrete assurances that the Welsh language side of this was going to be covered off. Have you got anything that you want to add on that? Obviously, for us as a committee, we believe what we're told when we are given assurances. So, that's quite concerning for us, really, that that suddenly then became an issue, when both HMRC and the Minister at the time told us that this wasn't going to be a problem.
Nicola Edwards: So, I think it's the point that I was talking about earlier. There's a difference between a bilingual service in the context of what HMRC understood that to be, in the context of their scheme, and the very detail of the standards when they got into their IT systems.
Lynne Neagle AM: Shouldn't that have been something that was worked out at the beginning?
Nicola Edwards: Possibly, but they did need to do quite detailed work, not just into their own IT systems, but the feed-in systems from the Home Office, the Department for Work and Pensions and the Post Office as well, to understand the full complexity of how the standards would comply across all of that. They do provide a bilingual service. It was just some of the specific details of the requirements placed on the Welsh Ministers, because it is the Welsh Ministers' standards that they would need to deliver against that they were struggling with.
Lynne Neagle AM: Right, okay.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but those standards were there right from the very beginning.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think that the committee would feel that that should have been bottomed out at the beginning, really.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Nothing has changed in terms of the standards.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, just before we move on to Flying Start, can I just ask: the Minister mentioned a longer term review of the childcare offer. Are you able to give us any indication of when that will report, please?
Julie Morgan AM: Would we have any idea?
Nicola Edwards: We haven't set out a definitive timescale on that as of yet because we've been focusing very much on getting the review in terms of training, education and on the cusp of returning to work up and running. But sometime next year.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. So, it will report sometime next year.
Nicola Edwards: Yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We'll move on now to Flying Start and questions from Suzy Davies.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. Can I just begin by asking you how you respond to the assertion that children from the most disadvantaged backgrounds do better in a mixed socioeconomic environment than in a targeted environment?
Julie Morgan AM: I think that's what Flying Start does, isn't it? Yes, I would have thought that was likely.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, the reason I'm asking you that, of course, is because this committee has suggested, perhaps, changes to the outreach system to target more disadvantaged children, and not necessarily capture people who happen to be in a geographic area.
Julie Morgan AM: So, you're saying that you feel that a universal offer in certain areas is not advantageous to—
Suzy Davies AM: Well, I'm asking you, really. If it's the case that we're only going after disadvantaged children, which would take very precise targeting—
Julie Morgan AM: I'm not only going after disadvantaged children. I feel that we should be offering something for all children, and our considerations are for all children. The reason we've targeted Flying Start is because it would be great if we had enough money to have Flying Start throughout the whole of Wales, but we just don't have that sort of money. Because I think Flying Start has proved to be a great—very successful.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm going to ask you a few more questions on that. Because just in response to this committee's 2018 report, you did say that: 'defined geographical targeting of Flying Start support will be considered as part of the Welsh Government’s work on the Early Years system.' That suggests you still have geographic targeting in mind. So, if you're looking at a very mixed source of economic experience for children, what are the geographic boundaries you're considering?
Julie Morgan AM: At the moment, Flying Start can go beyond the geographical boundaries, with the extension—
Suzy Davies AM: With limits, yes.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think they can use 10 per cent of their income to go beyond the geographical boundaries, and many of them have done that. But, obviously, there are four elements to Flying Start, and only those geographical areas have got the four elements, but there could be the opportunity of extending some of that beyond the Flying Start geographical areas. We're looking at this.
Suzy Davies AM: I accept what you say about the current system—
Julie Morgan AM: I believe it's much more—. I believe very strongly in having a universal system, where everybody is able to access it.
Suzy Davies AM: I appreciate that as well. But, obviously, there are huge cost implications for that—unless you're giving us some insight into what you're going to say next week, I don't know. But actually, defining anything geographically, which now seems to be fairly arbitrary, because it's not targeted purely at disadvantaged children—on what basis are we choosing the geographic areas we are choosing at the moment?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, they're chosen then because of the benefit take-up in those particular areas. So, it's reaching some of the poorest children, but not all of the poorest children, but it's reaching the poorest children in a way that is not stigmatising, and where the services are open to everybody, and I think that's very important.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, having established that, we have fairly recent research here that a third of children living in poverty in Wales are already falling behind at the age of five—that suggests that two thirds of them aren't, but it's still a very worrying statistic. Not all children live in Flying Start areas; how are you going to reach that third who, even at such an early age, are already falling behind? How many of them are in Flying Start areas?
Julie Morgan AM: I think the actual number of children in poverty, the most disadvantaged that we reach through the Flying Start areas—I think it's about 46 per cent. Is that—? Do you know the actual percentage?
Suzy Davies AM: It's about a quarter of total children are in there, but—
Jo-Anne Daniels: So, just to give you a few of the numbers, there are just over 36,000 children benefiting from Flying Start services. That equates to about 23 per cent of children, overall, in Wales. And because of the nature of the benefit take-up data, and because we don't assess eligibility within a Flying Start area, we can't be absolutely certain how many children within a Flying Start area are actually in poverty. So, it's an estimate, and it's a range, and the range is that around 45 per cent of children in Flying Start areas would be in poverty.FootnoteLink
Suzy Davies AM: Well, that's interesting. I would have expected it to be much higher than that, particularly if the geographic areas had been targeted on benefit claims, effectively. Are you disappointed that the proportion is—basically, 55 per cent of those children aren't living in poverty. That's what you're saying, isn't it?
Jo-Anne Daniels: Well, I'd offer two observations. One: the nature of poverty in Wales is actually, generally, more dispersed than perhaps sometimes is appreciated. Yes, we have very concentrated areas of—
Suzy Davies AM: Well, actually, we do appreciate it, which is why we're asking this question. [Laughter.]
Jo-Anne Daniels: Okay. So that's one issue to think about. Sorry, I've lost my train of thought now, in terms of the second—oh, sorry: whether you're in or out of poverty is, in one sense, very black/white. But in reality of course—in terms of the income definition, it's very black/white. But, of course, there will be a large number of people who are just above, but also families who move in and out, so it's quite a transient population in some senses, in terms of people having incomes that aren't stable, people having jobs that go with that that aren't stable. So, at any one point in time, you're only sort of capturing a snapshot of what's happening. In reality, it's a bit more complex than that.
Suzy Davies AM: I accept that. I mentioned a third of children living in poverty had fallen behind at five; by the age of 14, half that number is still falling behind, so something has happened between that third and that half to improve the life chances of those individual children or young people. Is that attributable to Flying Start? Can you say that candidly? Or is it a happy coincidence, where there could be some causation, but we can’t prove it?
Jo-Anne Daniels: We certainly think that Flying Start is making a positive impact, both on the point at which children go to school, and then subsequently. And I think as the committee knows, we’ve been working with the SAIL—secure anonymised information linkage—and the databank there to look at how we can do longitudinal studies to track children’s progress, to look at the extent to which outcomes are effected by Flying Start interventions.
Suzy Davies AM: We probably don't have time for this level of detail today, but half of those children are still behind at the age of 14. So, I'd be curious to know if there's any immediate plans to help them catch up or make sure that their successors don't fall into the same position, the same trap. Have you got anything high level that you can mention at this stage?
Julie Morgan AM: Just in terms of what we’re thinking of doing with Flying Start—. The key thing about Flying Start is the collaborative way that it works with the health visitors and all the speech and language therapists and childcare, and we’re looking at ways of trying to get some of those elements to reach a wider group. And as I said, we talked about earlier the eight earlier years transformation pathfinders that we talked about in the local authorities—we talked about that earlier—so, that’s where we’re going to look at Flying Start and how we can try to make it more accessible to more children. So, we do want to extend the benefits of Flying Start. We do want to make it available to more children, and that’s what we’re looking at. And we’re looking at that in those eight pathfinder areas. And you'll have to wait to see what we come up with—
Suzy Davies AM: No, no—we'll ask you more about that in due course. Actually, that job would be an awful lot easier if you knew how many children within Flying Start areas were taking up all four elements. Why don't you know that? Why is that data not collected?
Julie Morgan AM: Do we know why?
Jo-Anne Daniels: So, the approach that we’ve taken to evaluation in Flying Start—. The committee will have seen the various evaluation reports that have been published, and I know that you’re familiar with the work that, as I say, we’ve been doing with SAIL. We’re currently focusing on individual data collection, and through that we want to be able to report on levels of engagement, but also outcomes for children. We’ve been piloting that new approach in six local authorities. We hope to be able to extend that, and we hope to be able to provide more evidence about the interventions and the impact that they then achieve.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. All right. Because, to be honest, I would want to know if a child’s chances have improved primarily because they’re getting good-quality childcare or primarily because their parents are taking up parenting courses. There’s got to be some indication somewhere in here about which of these four elements is making the greatest difference.
Jo-Anne Daniels: I would just caution in terms of expectations. It will always be quite difficult to definitively provide answers to that, because many parents will be taking these things up in combination. So, disentangling which has had the effect is, obviously, quite tricky—in particular, all parents will be getting the enhanced health visiting. Not every parent will take up parenting support, not every child will need speech and language help, so—
Suzy Davies AM: And that's why we need to know who is.
Jo-Anne Daniels: Disentangling what's helped and what hasn't I think will always be quite a difficult thing to do.
Suzy Davies AM: But it would also be helpful to know which combinations work best as well. Just on the final point from me—yes, 88 per cent of Flying Start's childcare offers were taken up, but we've had some local authorities where the take-up has dropped dramatically. I think Denbighshire was down a fair bit, wasn't it, and Ceredigion, I think, had had a poor take-up. Have you got any indication why? I'm thinking of Denbighshire particularly, where there is a tradition—taking up third-party childcare is cultural there, whereas in Ceredigion, for example, there are far fewer places available in the first place and less of a tradition of children taking up childcare. But what's happened in Denbighshire?
Julie Morgan AM: I think there are a number of different reasons why parents do decide not to use a facility, and, obviously, that always exists, but each local authority has a Flying Start account manager in place to support them in the delivery of the programme and the account management activities, and there are formal account meetings that look at this sort of thing once a year—
Suzy Davies AM: So, what have they told you?
Julie Morgan AM: —and these meetings will take place in November 2019. That's when the specific delivery issues will be discussed in depth, so that's when we'll find out what has happened and why there may have been a drop.
Suzy Davies AM: Can I just ask about the timing of that? Because if you already know that there's a 6 per cent drop, why will it take the best part of a year to—well, November's only next month, to be fair, now, but why will it take that length of time to establish why there's a drop? You'd have thought if you'd seen a trend like that—
Julie Morgan AM: Obviously, they meet at certain times and they will assess what's happened. That seems quite normal to me.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, but we'll get a note on that, is it? It's just that they knew this six months ago.
Julie Morgan AM: In November, we'll have more information about this, so we can let you have information about that.
Suzy Davies AM: That would be really helpful, just for—. I'm sure constituents in Denbighshire will want to know about that. And then finally from me, Chair, if I may, Flying Start beneficiaries—it's got a specific explanation of what a Flying Start beneficiary is, but I think, particularly in view of the evidence we've heard on this committee about parental support in connection with the removal of the defence of reasonable chastisement, for example, this committee is very concerned about what's out there in terms of parental support. Eighteen per cent of Flying Start beneficiaries have parents attending the informal parenting courses; that's 18 per cent, that's not very high. Any idea about what you might be able to do to encourage take-up or is that very locally decided?
Lynne Neagle AM: If I can add to that, obviously, somebody only has to attend one course—we've got no way of knowing whether parents are completing the whole of a course, really.
Julie Morgan AM: Obviously, the offer is there for parents to take up the parenting courses, and there are four elements to Flying Start, and maybe some of the parents don't feel that they want to or need to. I don't think we've got any more evidence on that for take-up—
Suzy Davies AM: Well, the reach of this is going to be important, because we need the reassurance on the back of the legislation that is going through at the moment.
Julie Morgan AM: Absolutely, yes.
Jo-Anne Daniels: Parenting courses are, of course, one aspect of parenting support, but not the only one, and they'll be appropriate for a lot of parents, but for some not. What all parents do get at an enhanced level in Flying Start is the support of the health visitor, so the health visitor is, in effect, providing a significant amount of support for parenting. Now, that can be practical things like weaning or potty training et cetera, but, actually, it's also about managing a child's behaviour, managing how a parent develops that bonding and that attachment with their child. So, the role of the health visitor in supporting a parent to be a parent is absolutely critical, and every parent in Flying Start areas will be getting that enhanced level of support. Of course, it's not just in Flying Start areas now, because with the Healthy Child Wales programme, the universal programme of health visiting visits, we have a much more consistent and standardised set of visits and engagements with parents that cover a lot of these areas. In addition, I'd also add that when parents use the childcare in Flying Start, or childcare generally outside of Flying Start areas, there is often a lot of working between the childcare setting and the parent over parenting—again, managing a child's behaviour, managing any issues that the childcare worker thinks are emerging in terms of whether it's eating or, again, toileting. So, parenting courses are important, but it's really essential that we see those in the broader context of the different ways in which lots of professionals interact with parents, providing them with advice, guidance and support, and actually what works for parents in terms of how they take on board some of that advice and that help. Sometimes a formal course is quite off-putting for parents, but the sort of quiet word, the top tips, the advice that a friendly professional gives can be very, very impactful.
Suzy Davies AM: That's a really helpful answer. It does raise, unfortunately, another question about whether a health visitor in those circumstances might find themselves in a difficult position if they're dealing with a parent who has smacked a child, but we'll leave that for Stage 3.
Julie Morgan AM: We'll be dealing with that, I'm sure.
Suzy Davies AM: But thank you; that was a helpful answer. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank the Minister and the officials for attending this morning? As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your attendance. Thank you.
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Item 4 is papers to note. There's just one today: the letter from the WLGA regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Act 2019 in response to our letter asking about the change in approach. Item 5 then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.
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PhD A: Eh , we should be going .
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PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: Oh .
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Professor B: Hmm .
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Professor B: No .
PhD D: No .
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Professor B: Huh .
PhD D: and we re - scale the other probabilities by one minus the silence probability . Um . So it 's some kind of hierarchical thing , {vocalsound} uh , that Sunil also tried , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} on SPINE and apparently it helps a little bit also . Mmm . And . Yeah , the reason w why {disfmarker} why we did that with the silence probability was that , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker}
Professor B: Could {disfmarker} ? Uh , uh , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm really sorry . Can you repeat what you were saying about the silence probability ?
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I only {disfmarker} My mind was some {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah . So there is the tandem network that e e e estimates the phone probabilities
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: and the silence probabilities also .
Professor B: Right .
PhD D: And {vocalsound} things get better when , instead of using the silence probability computed by the tandem network , we use the silence probability , uh , given by the VAD network ,
Professor B: Oh .
PhD D: um ,
Professor B: The VAD network is {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: Which is smaller , but maybe , um {disfmarker} So we have a network for the VAD which has one hundred hidden units , and the tandem network has five hundred . Um . So it 's smaller but th the silence probability {pause} from this network seems , uh , better .
Professor B: OK .
PhD D: Mmm . Uh . Well , it looks strange , but {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah . But {disfmarker}
PhD D: but it
Professor B: OK .
PhD D: Maybe it 's {disfmarker} has something to do to {vocalsound} the fact that {vocalsound} we don't have infinite training data and {disfmarker}
Professor B: We don't ?
PhD D: Well ! And so {disfmarker} Well , things are not optimal
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: and {disfmarker} Mmm {disfmarker}
Grad E: Are you {disfmarker} you were going to say why {disfmarker} what made you {disfmarker} wh what led you to do that .
PhD D: Yeah . Uh , there was a p {comment} problem that we observed , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} that there was {disfmarker} there were , like , many insertions in the {disfmarker} in the system .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Mmm .
Professor B: Hmm .
PhD D: Actually plugging in the tandem network was increasing , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , the number of insertions .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: And , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} So it looked strange and then just using the {disfmarker} the other silence probability helps . Mmm . Um {disfmarker} Yeah . The next thing we will do is train this tandem on more data .
Professor B: So , you know , in a way what it might {disfmarker} i it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little bit like {vocalsound} combining knowledge sources .
PhD D: Um {disfmarker}
Professor B: Right ? Because {vocalsound} the fact that you have these two nets that are different sizes {pause} means they behave a little differently ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: they find different {pause} things . And , um , if you have , um {disfmarker} f the distribution that you have from , uh , f speech sounds is w {comment} sort of one source of knowledge .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And this is {disfmarker} and rather than just taking one minus that to get the other , which is essentially what 's happening , you have this other source of knowledge that you 're putting in there . So you make use of both of them {vocalsound} in {disfmarker} in {pause} what you 're ending up with . Maybe it 's better .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: Anyway , you can probably justify anything if what 's use
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: And {disfmarker} and the features are different also . I mean , the VAD doesn't use the same features there are .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Hmm .
Professor B: Oh !
PhD D: Um {disfmarker}
Professor B: That might be the key , actually .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Cuz you were really thinking about speech versus nonspeech for that .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: That 's a good point .
PhD D: Mmm . Uh . Well , there are other things that {vocalsound} we should do but , {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} it requires time and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have ideas , like {disfmarker} so , these things are like hav having a better VAD . Uh , we have some ideas about that . It would {disfmarker} {vocalsound} probably implies working a little bit on features that are more {vocalsound} suited to a voice activity detection .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Working on the second stream . Of course we have ideas on this also , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} w we need to try different things and {disfmarker} Uh , but their noise estimation , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: I mean , back on the second stream , I mean , that 's something we 've talked about for a while . I mean , I think {nonvocalsound} that 's certainly a high hope .
PhD D: Yeah . {vocalsound} Mmm .
Professor B: Um , so we have this {disfmarker} this default idea about just using some sort of purely spectral thing ?
PhD D: Uh , yeah .
Professor B: for a second stream ?
PhD D: But , um , we {disfmarker} we did a first try with this , and it {disfmarker} it {vocalsound} clearly hurts .
Professor B: But , uh , how was the stream combined ?
PhD D: Uh . {vocalsound} It was c it was just combined , um , by the acoustic model . So there was , no neural network for the moment .
Professor B: Right . So , I mean , if you just had a second stream that was just spectral and had another neural net and combined there , that {disfmarker} that , uh , {vocalsound} might be good .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Yeah . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mmm . Yeah . Um {disfmarker} Yeah , and the other thing , that noise estimation and th um , maybe try to train {disfmarker} uh , the training data for the t tandem network , right now , is like {disfmarker} i is using the noises from the Aurora task and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I think that people might , {vocalsound} um , try to argue about that because {vocalsound} then in some cases we have the same noises in {disfmarker} for training the network {pause} than the noises that are used for testing ,
Professor B: Right .
PhD D: and {disfmarker} So we have t n uh , to try to get rid of these {disfmarker} {vocalsound} this problem .
Professor B: Yeah . Maybe you just put in some other noise , something that 's different .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Professor B: I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's probably helpful to have {disfmarker} have a little noise there . But it may be something else
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor B: th at least you could say it was .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: And then {disfmarker} if it doesn't hurt too much , though .
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor B: Yeah . That 's a good idea .
PhD D: Um . Yeah . The last thing is that I think we are getting close to human performance . Well , that 's something I would like to investigate further , but , um , I did , like , um {disfmarker} I did , uh , listen to the m most noisy utterances of the SpeechDat - Car Italian and tried to transcribe them . And , um {disfmarker}
Professor B: So this is a particular human . This is {disfmarker} this i this is Stephane .
PhD D: Yeah . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker}
Grad E: St - Stephane .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: that 's the {disfmarker} the flaw of the experiment . This is just {disfmarker} i j {comment} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} it 's just one subject ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: Getting close .
PhD D: but {disfmarker} but still , uh , {vocalsound} what happens is {disfmarker} is that , {vocalsound} uh , the digit error rate on this is around one percent ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: while our system is currently at seven percent . Um , but what happens also is that if I listen to the , um {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} a re - synthesized version of the speech and {pause} I re - synthesized this using a white noise that 's filtered by a LPC , uh , filter {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: Um , well , you can argue , that , uh {disfmarker} that this is not speech ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: so the ear is not trained to recognize this . But s actually it sound like {pause} whispering , so we are {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well , I mean , it 's {disfmarker}
PhD D: eh {disfmarker}
Professor B: There 's two problems there . I mean {disfmarker} I mean , so {disfmarker} so the first is {vocalsound} that by doing LPC - twelve with synthesized speech w like you 're saying , uh , it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i i you 're {disfmarker} you 're adding other degradation .
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor B: Right ? So it 's not just the noise but you 're adding in fact some degradation because it 's only an approximation . Um , and the second thing is {disfmarker} which is m maybe more interesting {disfmarker} is that , um , {comment} {vocalsound} if you do it with whispered speech , you get this number . What if you had {pause} done analysis {comment} re - synthesis and taken the pitch as well ? Alright ? So now you put the pitch in .
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor B: What would the percentage be then ?
PhD D: Um {disfmarker}
Professor B: See , that 's the question . So , you see , if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's , uh {disfmarker} Let 's say it 's {pause} back down to one percent again .
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor B: That would say at least for people , having the pitch is really , really important , which would be interesting in itself . Um ,
PhD D: Uh , yeah . But {disfmarker}
Professor B: if i on the other hand , if it stayed up {pause} near five percent , {vocalsound} then I 'd say " boy , LPC n twelve is pretty crummy " . You know ?
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor B: So I I I 'm not sure {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how we can conclude from this anything about {disfmarker} that our system is close to {vocalsound} the human performance .
PhD D: Ye Yeah . Well , the point is that eh l ey {disfmarker} the point is that , um , {vocalsound} what I {disfmarker} what I listened to when I re - synthesized the LP - the LPC - twelve {pause} spectrum {vocalsound} is in a way what the system , uh , is hearing , cuz @ @ {disfmarker} all the {disfmarker} all the , um , excitation {disfmarker} all the {disfmarker} well , the excitation is {disfmarker} is not taken into account . That 's what we do with our system . And
Professor B: Well , you 're not doing the LPC {disfmarker}
PhD D: in this case {disfmarker}
Professor B: I mean , so {disfmarker} so what if you did a {disfmarker}
PhD D: Well , it 's not LPC , sure ,
Professor B: What if you did LPC - twenty ?
PhD D: but {disfmarker} LPC {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: Twenty . Right ? I mean , th the thing is LPC is not a {disfmarker} a really great representation of speech .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , all I 'm saying is that you have in addition to the w the , uh , removal of pitch , {vocalsound} you also are doing , uh , a particular parameterization ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: which , um , uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: Mmm .
Professor B: Uh , so , let 's see , how would you do {disfmarker} ? So , fo
PhD D: But that 's {disfmarker} that 's what we do with our systems . And {disfmarker}
Professor B: No . Actually , we d we {disfmarker} we don't , because we do {disfmarker} we do , uh , {vocalsound} uh , mel filter bank , for instance . Right ?
PhD D: Yeah , but is it that {disfmarker} is it that different , I mean ?
Professor B: Um , {vocalsound} I don't know what mel , {pause} uh , based synthesis would sound like ,
PhD D: I
Professor B: but certainly the spectra are quite different .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Couldn't you t couldn't you , um , test the human performance on just the original {pause} audio ?
PhD D: Mm - hmm . This is the one percent number .
Professor B: Yeah , it 's one percent . He 's trying to remove the pitch information
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Oh , oh . OK ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: I see .
Professor B: and make it closer to what {disfmarker} to what we 're seeing as the feature vectors .
PhD A: OK . So , y uh , your performance was one percent , and then when you re - synthesize with LPC - twelve it went to five .
PhD D: Uh - huh . Yeah .
PhD A: OK .
Professor B: I mean {disfmarker} We were {disfmarker} we were j It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's a little bit still apples and oranges because we are choosing these features in order to be the best for recognition .
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor B: And , um , i if you listen to them they still might not be very {disfmarker} Even if you made something closer to what we 're gonna {disfmarker} i it might not sound very good .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: Uh , and i the degradation from that might {disfmarker} might actually make it even harder , {vocalsound} uh , to understand than the LPC - twelve . So all I 'm saying is that the LPC - twelve {vocalsound} puts in {disfmarker} synthesis puts in some degradation that 's not what we 're used to hearing ,
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor B: and is , um {disfmarker} It 's not {disfmarker} it 's not just a question of how much information is there , as if you will always take maximum {vocalsound} advantage of any information that 's presented to you .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: In fact , you {vocalsound} hear some things better than others . And so it {disfmarker} it isn't {disfmarker}
PhD A: But {disfmarker}
Professor B: But , {vocalsound} I agree that it says that , uh , the kind of information that we 're feeding it is probably , {vocalsound} um , um , a little bit , um , minimal . There 's definitely some things that we 've thrown away . And that 's why I was saying it might be interesting if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} an interesting test of this would be if you {disfmarker} if you actually put the pitch back in . So , you just extract it from the actual speech and put it back in , and see does that {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} does that make the difference ? If that {disfmarker} if that takes it down to one percent again , {vocalsound} then you 'd say " OK , it 's {disfmarker} it 's in fact having , um , {vocalsound} not just the spectral envelope but also the {disfmarker} also the {disfmarker} the pitch {vocalsound} that , uh , {comment} @ @ {comment} has the information that people can use , anyway . "
PhD D: Uh - huh . Mmm .
PhD A: But from this it 's pretty safe to say that the system is with either {vocalsound} two to seven percent away from {pause} the performance of a human . Right ? So it 's somewhere in that range .
Professor B: Well , or it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Two {disfmarker} two to six percent .
Professor B: Yeah , so {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} it 's one point four times , uh , to , uh , seven times the error ,
PhD D: To f seven times , yeah .
Professor B: for Stephane .
PhD D: Um .
Professor B: So , uh {disfmarker} uh , but i I don't know . I do don't wanna take you away from other things .
PhD D: But {disfmarker} {comment} but {disfmarker}
Professor B: But that 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that 's what {disfmarker} that 's the first thing that I would be curious about , is , you know , i i {vocalsound} when you we
PhD D: But the signal itself is like a mix of {disfmarker} um , of a {disfmarker} a periodic sound and , {pause} @ @ {comment} uh , unvoiced sound , and the noise
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: which is mostly , {vocalsound} uh , noise . I mean not {pause} periodic . So , {pause} what {disfmarker} what do you mean exactly by putting back the pitch in ? Because {disfmarker}
PhD A: In the LPC synthesis ? I think {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah . You did LPC re - synthesis {disfmarker}
PhD D: I
Professor B: L PC re - synthesis .
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor B: So , {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} and you did it with a noise source , rather than with {disfmarker} with a s periodic source .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Right ? So if you actually did real re - synthesis like you do in an LPC synthesizer , where it 's unvoiced you use noise , where it 's voiced you use , {vocalsound} uh , periodic pulses .
PhD D: Um .
Professor B: Right ?
PhD D: Yeah , but it 's neither {pause} purely voiced or purely unvoiced . Esp - especially because there is noise .
Professor B: Well , it might be hard to do it
PhD D: So {disfmarker}
Professor B: but it but {disfmarker} but the thing is that if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um , if you detect that there 's periodic {disfmarker} s strong periodic components , then you can use a voiced {disfmarker} voice thing .
PhD D: Oh . Uh - huh . Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah . I mean , it 's probably not worth your time . It 's {disfmarker} it 's a side thing and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and there 's a lot to do .
PhD D: Uh - huh , yeah .
Professor B: But I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just saying , at least as a thought experiment , {vocalsound} that 's what I would wanna test .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Uh , I wan would wanna drive it with a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a two - source system rather than a {disfmarker} than a one - source system .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And then that would tell you whether in fact it 's {disfmarker} Cuz we 've talked about , like , this harmonic tunneling or {vocalsound} other things that people have done based on pitch , maybe that 's really a key element . Maybe {disfmarker} maybe , uh , {vocalsound} uh , without that , it 's {disfmarker} it 's not possible to do a whole lot better than we 're doing . That {disfmarker} that could be .
PhD D: Yeah . That 's what I was thinking by doing this es experiment ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: like {disfmarker} Mmm . {vocalsound} Evi
Professor B: But , I mean , other than that , I don't think it 's {disfmarker} I mean , other than the pitch de information , {vocalsound} it 's hard to imagine that there 's a whole lot more {vocalsound} in the signal that {disfmarker} that , uh {disfmarker} that we 're throwing away that 's important .
PhD D: Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah . {vocalsound} Mm - hmm . Yeah , right .
Professor B: Right ? I mean , we 're using {vocalsound} a fair number of filters in the filter bank and {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Uh , yeah .
Professor B: Hmm . Yeah .
PhD D: Um .
Professor B: Yeah . That look
PhD D: Yeah , that 's it .
Professor B: Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} I mean , one {disfmarker} one percent is sort of what I would {disfmarker} I would figure . If somebody was paying really close attention , you might get {disfmarker} I would actually think that if , {vocalsound} you looked at people on various times of the day and different amounts of attention , you might actually get up to three or four percent error on digits . Uh , {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Um .
Professor B: So it 's {disfmarker} you know , we 're not {disfmarker} we 're not incredibly far off . On the other hand , with any of these numbers except maybe the one percent , it 's st it 's not actually usable in a commercial system with a full telephone number or something .
PhD D: Uh - huh . Yeah . At these noise levels .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Right .
PhD D: Well , yeah . These numbers , I mean . Mmm .
Professor B: Good . Um , while we 're still on Aurora stuff {pause} maybe you can talk a little about the status with the , uh , {vocalsound} Wall Street Journal {vocalsound} things for it .
PhD A: So I 've , um , downloaded , uh , a couple of things from Mississippi State . Um , one is their {vocalsound} software {disfmarker} their , uh , LVCSR system . Downloaded the latest version of that . Got it compiled and everything . Um , downloaded the scripts . They wrote some scripts that sort of make it easy to run {vocalsound} the system on the Wall Street Journal , uh , data . Um , so I haven't run the scripts yet . Uh , I 'm waiting {disfmarker} there was one problem with part of it and I wrote a note to Joe asking him about it . So I 'm waiting to hear from him . But , um , I did print something out just to give you an idea about where the system is . Uh , {vocalsound} they {disfmarker} on their web site they , uh , did this little table of where their system performs relative to other systems that have done this {disfmarker} this task . And , um , the Mississippi State system {vocalsound} using a bigram grammar , uh , is at about eight point two percent . Other comparable systems from , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} were getting from , uh , like six point nine , six point eight percent . So they 're {disfmarker}
Professor B: This is on clean test set ?
PhD A: This is on clean {disfmarker} on clean stuff . Yeah . They {disfmarker} they 've started a table {vocalsound} where they 're showing their results on various different noise conditions but they {disfmarker} they don't have a whole lot of it filled in and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and I didn't notice until after I 'd printed it out that , um , {vocalsound} they don't say here {pause} what these different testing conditions are .
Professor B:
PhD A: You actually have to click on it on the web site to see them . So I {disfmarker} I don't know what those {pause} numbers really mean .
Professor B: What kind of numbers are they getting on these {disfmarker} on the test conditions ?
PhD A: Well , see , I was a little confused because on this table , I 'm {disfmarker} the they 're showing word error rate . But on this one , I {disfmarker} I don't know if these are word error rates because they 're really big . So , {vocalsound} under condition one here it 's ten percent . Then under three it goes to sixty - four point six percent .
Professor B: Yeah , that 's probably Aurora .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: I mean {disfmarker}
PhD A: So m I guess maybe they 're error rates but they 're , uh {disfmarker} they 're really high .
Professor B: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't find that surpri
PhD A: So {disfmarker}
Professor B: I mean , we {disfmarker} W what 's {disfmarker} what 's some of the lower error rates on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} uh , some of the higher error rates on , uh , {vocalsound} some of these w uh , uh , highly mismatched difficult conditions ? What 's a {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: Uh . Yeah , it 's around fifteen to twenty percent .
PhD A: Correct ?
PhD D: And the baseline , eh {disfmarker}
PhD A: Accuracy ?
PhD D: Uh , error rate .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: Twenty percent error rate ,
Professor B: Yeah . So twenty percent error rate on digits .
PhD D: and {disfmarker}
PhD A: Oh , oh , on digits .
Professor B: So if you 're doing {disfmarker} so if you 're doing ,
PhD D: and {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD D: On digits .
PhD A: OK .
Professor B: you know ,
PhD D: And this is so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} still the baseline .
Professor B: sixty - thousand {disfmarker}
PhD D: Right ?
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah , and if you 're saying sixty - thousand word recognition , getting sixty percent error on some of these noise condition not at all surprising .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD D: The baseline is sixty percent also on digits ,
PhD A: Oh , is it ?
PhD D: on the m more {pause} mismatched conditions .
PhD A: OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: So .
PhD A: So , yeah , that 's probably what it is then . Yeah . So they have a lot of different conditions that they 're gonna be filling out .
Professor B: It 's a bad sign when you {disfmarker} looking at the numbers , you can't tell whether it 's accuracy or error rate .
PhD A: Yeah . Yeah . It 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be hard . Um , they 're {disfmarker} I I 'm still waiting for them to {pause} release the , um , {vocalsound} multi - CPU version of their scripts , cuz right now their script only handles processing on a single CPU , which will take a really long time to run . So . But their s
Professor B: This is for the training ?
PhD A: Uh {disfmarker} I beli Yes , for the training {pause} also . And , um , they 're supposed to be coming out with it any time ,
Professor B: OK .
PhD A: the multi - CPU one . So , as soon as they get that , then I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll grab those too
Professor B: OK .
PhD A: and so w
Professor B: Yeah . Cuz we have to get started ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: cuz it 's {disfmarker} cuz , uh ,
PhD A: Yeah . I 'll go ahead and try to run it though with just the single CPU one ,
Professor B: if the {disfmarker}
PhD A: and {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they , {vocalsound} um , released like a smaller data set that you can use that only takes like sixteen hours to train and stuff . So I can {disfmarker} I can run it on that just to make sure that the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the thing works and everything .
Professor B: Oh ! Good . Yeah . Cuz we 'll {disfmarker}
Grad E: Hmm .
Professor B: I guess the actual evaluation will be in six weeks or something . So . Is that about right {pause} you think ?
PhD D: Uh , we don't know yet , I {disfmarker} I think .
Professor B: Really , we don't know ?
PhD D: Uh - huh . Um .
PhD A: It wasn't on the conference call this morning ?
Professor B: Hmm .
PhD D: No .
PhD A: Hmm . Did they say anything on the conference call {pause} about , um , how the {pause} Wall Street Journal part of the test was going to be {pause} run ? Because I {disfmarker} I thought I remembered hearing that some sites {vocalsound} were saying that they didn't have the compute to be able to run the Wall Street Journal stuff at their place ,
PhD D: No . Mmm .
PhD A: so there was some talk about having Mississippi State run {pause} the systems for them . And I {disfmarker} Did {disfmarker} did that come up at all ?
PhD D: Uh , no . Well , this {disfmarker} first , this was not the point at all of this {disfmarker} the meeting today
PhD A: Oh , OK .
PhD D: and ,
Professor B: Some
PhD D: uh , frankly , I don't know because I d {comment} didn't read also the {pause} most recent mails about {vocalsound} the large - vocabulary task . But , {vocalsound} uh , did you {disfmarker} do you still , uh , get the mails ? You 're not on the mailing list or what ?
PhD A: Hmm - mm . The only , um , mail I get is from Mississippi State {disfmarker}
PhD D: Uh - huh .
PhD A: so {disfmarker}
PhD D: Oh , yeah . So we should have a look at this .
PhD A: about their system . I {disfmarker} I don't get any {pause} mail about {disfmarker}
Professor B: I have to say , there 's uh something funny - sounding about saying that one of these big companies doesn't have enough cup compute power do that , so they 're having to have it done by Mississippi State .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: It just {disfmarker} {vocalsound} just sounds funny .
PhD A: Yeah . It does .
Professor B: But ,
PhD A: Yeah . I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm wondering about that
Professor B: anyway .
PhD A: because there 's this whole issue about , you know , simple tuning parameters , like word insertion penalties .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: And {pause} whether or not those are going to be tuned or not , and {disfmarker} {comment} So .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: I mean , it makes a big difference . If you change your front - end , you know , the scale is completely {disfmarker} can be completely different , so . It seems reasonable that that at least should be tweaked to match the front - end . But {disfmarker}
PhD D: You didn't get any answer from {pause} Joe ?
PhD A: I did , but Joe {pause} said , you know , " what you 're saying makes sense
PhD D: Uh - huh .
PhD A: and {pause} I don't know " . So he doesn't know what the answer is .
PhD D: Uh - huh .
PhD A: I mean , that 's th We had this back and forth a little bit about , {vocalsound} you know , are sites gonna {disfmarker} are you gonna run this data for different sites ? And , well , if {disfmarker} if Mississippi State runs it , then maybe they 'll do a little optimization on that {pause} parameter , and , uh {disfmarker} But then he wasn't asked to run it for anybody . So i it 's {disfmarker} it 's just not clear yet what 's gonna happen .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Uh , he 's been putting this stuff out on their web site and {disfmarker} for people to grab but I haven't heard too much about what 's happening .
Professor B: So it could be {disfmarker} I mean , Chuck and I had actually talked about this a couple times , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} over some lunches , I think , {vocalsound} that , um , {vocalsound} one thing that we might wanna do {disfmarker} The - there 's this question about , you know , what do you wanna scale ? Suppose y you can't adjust {vocalsound} these word insertion penalties and so forth , so you have to do everything at the level of the features . What could you do ? And , uh , one thing I had suggested at an earlier time was maybe some sort of scaling , some sort of root or {disfmarker} or something of the , um , {vocalsound} uh , features . But the problem with that is that isn't quite the same , it occurred to me later , because what you really want to do is scale the , uh , @ @ {comment} the range of the likelihoods rather than {disfmarker}
PhD D: Nnn , the dist Yeah .
Professor B: But , {vocalsound} what might get at something similar , it just occurred to me , is kind of an intermediate thing {disfmarker} is because we do this strange thing that we do with the tandem system , at least in that system what you could do {vocalsound} is take the , um , {vocalsound} uh , values that come out of the net , which are something like log probabilities , and scale those . And then , uh , um {disfmarker} {pause} then at least those things would have the right values or the right {disfmarker} the right range . And then that goes into the rest of it and then that 's used as observations . So it 's {disfmarker} it 's , {vocalsound} um , another way to do it .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . But , these values are not directly used as probabilities anyway .
Professor B: I know they 're not .
PhD D: So there are {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker}
Professor B: I know they 're not . But {disfmarker} but , you know {disfmarker} So because what we 're doing is pretty strange and complicated , we don't really know what the effect is {pause} at the other end .
PhD D: Uh - huh . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , {vocalsound} um , {pause} my thought was maybe {disfmarker} I mean , they 're not used as probabilities , but the log probabilities {disfmarker} we 're taking advantage of the fact that something like log probabilities has more of a Gaussian shape than Gaus - than {vocalsound} probabilities , and so we can model them better . So , {pause} in a way we 're taking advantage of the fact that they 're probabilities , because they 're this quantity that looks kind of Gaussian when you take it 's log . So , {comment} {vocalsound} uh , maybe {disfmarker} maybe it would have a {disfmarker} a reasonable effect to do that .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I d I don't know . But , {pause} I mean , I guess we still haven't had a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a ruling back on this . And we may end up being in a situation where we just you know really can't change the {vocalsound} word insertion penalty . But the other thing we could do {vocalsound} is {disfmarker} also we could {disfmarker} I mean , this {disfmarker} this may not help us , {vocalsound} uh , in the evaluation but it might help us in our understanding at least . We might , {vocalsound} just run it with different insper insertion penalties , and show that , uh , " well , OK , not changing it , {vocalsound} playing the rules the way you wanted , we did this . But in fact if we did that , it made a {disfmarker} {pause} a big difference . "
PhD A: I wonder if it {disfmarker} it might be possible to , uh , simulate the back - end with some other system . So we {disfmarker} we get our f front - end features , and then , uh , as part of the process of figuring out the scaling of these features , {comment} you know , if we 're gonna take it to a root or to a power or something , {comment} {vocalsound} we have some back - end that we attach onto our features that sort of simulates what would be happening .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Um ,
Professor B: And just adjust it until it 's the best number ?
PhD A: and just adjust it until that {disfmarker} our l version of the back - end , uh , decides that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well , we can probably use the real thing , can't we ? And then jus just , uh , {vocalsound} use it on a reduced test set or something .
PhD A: Yeah . Oh , yeah . That 's true .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: And then we just use that to determine some scaling factor that we use .
Professor B: Yeah . So I mean , I I think that that 's a reasonable thing to do and the only question is what 's the actual knob that we use ?
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And the knob that we use should {disfmarker} uh , uh , unfortunately , like I say , I don't know the analytic solution to this cuz what we really want to do is change the scale of the likelihoods ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: not the cha not the scale of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the {pause} observations . But {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad E: Out of curiosity , what {disfmarker} what kind of recognizer {pause} is the one from Mississippi State ?
PhD A: Uh , w what do you mean when you say " what kind " ?
Grad E: Is it {disfmarker} ? Um , is it like a {pause} Gaussian mixture model ?
PhD A: Yeah . Gaussian mixture model .
Grad E: OK .
PhD A: It 's the same system that they use {pause} when they participate in the Hub - five evals . It 's a , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} sort of {pause} came out of , uh {disfmarker} uh , looking a lot like HTK . I mean , they started off with {disfmarker} um , when they were building their system they were always comparing to HTK to make sure they were getting similar results . And so , {vocalsound} it 's a Gaussian mixture system , uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: Do they have the same sort of mix - down sort of procedure , where they {vocalsound} start off with a small number of some things
PhD A: I don't know . Yeah . And then {pause} divide the mixtures in half .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} ? Yeah .
PhD A: I don't know if they do that . I 'm not really sure .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: Hmm .
Professor B: D Do you know what kind of tying they use ? Are they {disfmarker} they sort of {disfmarker} some sort of {disfmarker} a bunch of Gaussians that they share across everything ? Or {disfmarker} {vocalsound} or if it 's {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: Yeah , th I have {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't have it up here but I have a {disfmarker} {pause} the whole system description , that describes exactly what their {pause} system is
Professor B: OK .
PhD A: and I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure . But , um {disfmarker}
Professor B: OK .
PhD A: It 's some kind of a mixture of Gaussians and , {vocalsound} uh , clustering and , uh {disfmarker} They 're {disfmarker} they 're trying to put in sort of all of the standard features that people use nowadays .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So the other , uh , Aurora thing maybe is {disfmarker} I I dunno if any of this is gonna {vocalsound} {pause} come in in time to be relevant , but , uh , we had talked about , uh , {comment} Guenter {vocalsound} playing around , uh , uh , over in Germany
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} and , @ @ {comment} uh , {pause} possibly coming up with something {vocalsound} that would , uh , {pause} uh , fit in later . Uh , I saw that other mail where he said that he {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , it wasn't going to work for him to do CVS .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah . So now he has a version of the software .
Professor B: So he just has it all sitting there . Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah . Um {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So if he 'll {disfmarker} he might work on improving the noise estimate or on {vocalsound} some histogram things , or {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah . I just saw the Eurospeech {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} we didn't talk about it at our meeting but I just saw the {disfmarker} just read the paper . Someone , I forget the name , {comment} and {disfmarker} and Ney , uh , about histogram equalization ? Did you see that one ?
PhD D: Um , it was a poster . Or {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah . I mean , I just read the paper .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: I didn't see the poster .
PhD D: Yeah . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It was something {pause} similar to n {vocalsound} on - line normalization finally {disfmarker} I mean , in {vocalsound} the idea of {disfmarker} of normalizing {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah . But it 's a little more {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's a little finer , right ? So they had like ten quantiles
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and they adjust the distribution .
PhD D: Right .
Professor B: So you {disfmarker} you have the distributions from the training set ,
PhD D: N
Professor B: and then , uh {disfmarker} So this is just a {disfmarker} a histogram of {disfmarker} of {vocalsound} the amplitudes , I guess . Right ? And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um , people do this in image processing some .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: You have this kind of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of histogram of {disfmarker} of levels of brightness or whatever . And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and then , {vocalsound} when you get a new {disfmarker} new thing that you {disfmarker} you want to adjust to be {pause} better in some way , {vocalsound} you adjust it so that the histogram of the new data looks like the old data .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor B: You do this kind of {vocalsound} piece - wise linear or , {vocalsound} uh , some kind of piece - wise approximation . They did a {disfmarker} uh one version that was piece - wise linear and another that had a power law thing between them {disfmarker} {vocalsound} between the {pause} points . And , uh , they said they s they sort of see it in a way as s for the speech case {comment} {disfmarker} as being kind of a generalization of spectral subtraction in a way , because , you know , in spectral subtraction you 're trying to {vocalsound} get rid of this excess energy . Uh , you know , it 's not supposed to be there . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and , uh , this is sort of {pause} {vocalsound} adjusting it for {disfmarker} for a lot of different levels . And then they have s they have some kind of , {vocalsound} uh , {pause} a floor or something ,
Grad E: Hmm .
Professor B: so if it gets too low you don't {disfmarker} don't do it .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor B: And they {disfmarker} they claimed very nice results ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: So is this a histogram across different frequency bins ?
Professor B: and {disfmarker}
PhD A: Or {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: Um , I think this i You know , I don't remember that . Do you remember {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: I think they have , yeah , different histograms . I uh {disfmarker} Something like one per {pause} frequency band ,
Professor B: One {disfmarker}
PhD A: So , one histogram per frequency bin .
Professor B: One per critical {disfmarker}
PhD D: or {disfmarker} But I did {disfmarker} Yeah , I guess .
PhD A: And that 's {disfmarker}
PhD D: But I should read the paper . I just went {pause} through the poster quickly ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: So th
Professor B: And I don't remember whether it was {pause} filter bank things
PhD A: Oh .
PhD D: and I didn't {disfmarker}
Professor B: or whether it was FFT bins
PhD A: Huh .
Professor B: or {disfmarker}
PhD A: And {disfmarker} and that {disfmarker} that , um , {pause} histogram represents {pause} the {pause} different energy levels that have been seen at that {pause} frequency ?
Professor B: I don't remember that . And how often they {disfmarker} you 've seen them . Yeah .
PhD A: Uh - huh .
Grad E: Hmm .
Professor B: Yeah . And they do {disfmarker} they said that they could do it for the test {disfmarker} So you don't have to change the training . You just do a measurement over the training . And then , uh , for testing , uh , you can do it for one per utterance . Even relatively short utterances . And they claim it {disfmarker} it works pretty well .
PhD A: So they , uh {disfmarker} Is the idea that you {disfmarker} you run a test utterance through some histogram generation thing and then you compare the histograms and that tells you {vocalsound} what to do to the utterance to make it more like {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: I guess in pri Yeah . In principle .
PhD A: I see .
Professor B: I didn't read carefully how they actually implemented it ,
PhD A: Hmm . Yeah .
Professor B: whether it was some , {vocalsound} uh , on - line thing , or whether it was a second pass , or what . But {disfmarker} but they {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That {disfmarker} that was sort of the idea .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor B: So that {disfmarker} that seemed , you know , different . We 're sort of curious about , uh , what are some things that are , u u um , {vocalsound} @ @ {comment} {pause} conceptually quite different from what we 've done .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Cuz we {disfmarker} you know , one thing that w that , uh , Stephane and Sunil seemed to find , {vocalsound} uh , was , you know , they could actually make a unified piece of software that handled a range of different things that people were talking about , and it was really just sort of setting of different {pause} constants . And it would turn , you know , one thing into another . It 'd turn Wiener filtering into spectral subtraction , or whatever . But there 's other things that we 're not doing . So , we 're not making any use of pitch , uh , uh , which again , might {disfmarker} might be important , uh , because the stuff between the harmonics is probably a schmutz . And {disfmarker} and the , {vocalsound} uh , transcribers will have fun with that . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} And , um , the , uh , stuff at the harmonics isn't so much . And {disfmarker} and , uh {disfmarker} And we there 's this overall idea of really sort of matching the {disfmarker} the hi distributions somehow . Uh , not just , um , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} not just subtracting off your estimate of the noise . So . So I guess , uh , {vocalsound} Guenter 's gonna play around with some of these things now over this next {pause} period ,
PhD D: Uh , I dunno .
Professor B: or {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: I don't have feedback from him , but
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: I guess he 's gonna , maybe {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well , he 's got it anyway , so he can .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: So potentially if he came up with something that was useful , like a diff a better noise estimation module or something , he could ship it to you guys u up there
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor B: and
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: we could put it in .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . {vocalsound} Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah . So , that 's good . So , why don't we just , uh , um {disfmarker} I think starting {disfmarker} {pause} starting a w couple weeks from now , especially if you 're not gonna be around for a while , we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll be shifting more over to some other {disfmarker} {vocalsound} other territory . But , uh , uh , {comment} uh , n not {disfmarker} not so much in this meeting about Aurora , but {disfmarker} but , uh , uh , maybe just , uh , quickly today about {disfmarker} maybe you could just say a little bit about what you 've been talking about with Michael . And {disfmarker} and then Barry can say something about {pause} what {comment} {disfmarker} what we 're talking about .
Grad C: OK . So Michael Kleinschmidt , who 's a PHD student from Germany , {vocalsound} showed up this week . He 'll be here for about six months . And he 's done some work using {vocalsound} an auditory model {pause} of , um , {vocalsound} human hearing , and {pause} using that f uh , to generate speech recognition features . And {pause} he did {vocalsound} work back in Germany {vocalsound} with , um , a toy recognition system {vocalsound} using , um , isolated {vocalsound} digit recognition {vocalsound} as the task . It was actually just a single - layer neural network {vocalsound} that classified words {disfmarker} classified digits , {vocalsound} in fact . Um , and {pause} he tried that on {disfmarker} I think on some Aurora data and got results that he thought {pause} seemed respectable . And he w he 's coming here to u u use it on a {vocalsound} uh , a real speech recognition system . So I 'll be working with him on that . And , um , maybe I should say a little more about these features , although I don't understand them that well . The {disfmarker} I think it 's a two - stage idea . And , um , {vocalsound} the first stage of these features correspond to what 's called the peripheral {vocalsound} auditory system . And {vocalsound} I guess that is like {vocalsound} a filter bank with a compressive nonlinearity . And {vocalsound} I 'm - I 'm not sure what we have @ @ in there that isn't already modeled in something like , {vocalsound} um , {pause} PLP . I should learn more about that . And then {vocalsound} the second stage {pause} is , um , {vocalsound} the most different thing , I think , from what we usually do . It 's , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} it computes features which are , {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} based on {disfmarker} sort of like based on diffe different w um , wavelet basis functions {vocalsound} used to analyze {vocalsound} the input . So th he uses analysis functions called {vocalsound} Gabor functions , um , {vocalsound} which have a certain {vocalsound} extent , um , {vocalsound} in time and in frequency . And {vocalsound} the idea is these are used to sample , {vocalsound} um , the signal in a represented as a time - frequency representation . So you 're {pause} sampling some piece of this time - frequency plane . And , um , {vocalsound} that , {vocalsound} um , is {disfmarker} is interesting , cuz , {vocalsound} @ @ for {disfmarker} for one thing , you could use it , {vocalsound} um , in a {disfmarker} a multi - scale way . You could have these {disfmarker} instead of having everything {disfmarker} like we use a twenty - five millisecond or so analysis window , {vocalsound} typically , um , and that 's our time scale for features , but you could {disfmarker} {vocalsound} using this , um , basis function idea , you could have some basis functions which have a lot longer time scale and , um , some which have a lot shorter , and {vocalsound} so it would be like {pause} a set of multi - scale features . So he 's interested in , um {disfmarker} Th - this is {disfmarker} because it 's , um {disfmarker} there are these different parameters for the shape of these {vocalsound} basis functions , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} there are a lot of different possible basis functions . And so he {disfmarker} {vocalsound} he actually does {vocalsound} an optimization procedure to choose an {disfmarker} {vocalsound} an optimal set of basis functions out of all the possible ones .
PhD A: Hmm . H What does he do to choose those ?
Grad C: The method he uses is kind of funny {disfmarker} is , {comment} {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} he starts with {disfmarker} he has a set of M of them . Um , he {disfmarker} and then {pause} he uses that to classify {disfmarker} I mean , he t he tries , um , {vocalsound} using {pause} just M minus one of them . So there are M possible subsets of this {vocalsound} length - M vector . He tries classifying , using each of the M {vocalsound} possible sub - vectors .
PhD D: Hmm .
Grad C: Whichever sub - vector , {vocalsound} um , works the {disfmarker} the best , I guess , he says {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the fe feature that didn't use was the most useless feature ,
Professor B: Y yeah . Gets thrown out . Yeah .
Grad C: so we 'll throw it out and we 're gonna randomly select another feature {pause} from the set of possible basis functions .
PhD A: Hmm !
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: So it 's a {disfmarker}
Professor B: So i so it 's actuall
PhD A: it 's a little bit like a genetic algorithm or something in a way .
Professor B: Well , it 's {disfmarker} it 's much simpler .
Grad E: It 's like a greedy {disfmarker}
Professor B: But it 's {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} uh , it 's {disfmarker} there 's a lot {disfmarker} number of things I like about it , let me just say .
PhD A: Greedy .
Professor B: So , first thing , well , you 're absolutely right . I mean , {vocalsound} i i {nonvocalsound} in truth , {pause} both pieces of this are {disfmarker} have their analogies in stuff we already do . But it 's a different take {vocalsound} at how to approach it and potentially one that 's m maybe a bit more systematic than what we 've done , uh , and a b a bit more inspiration from {disfmarker} from auditory things . So it 's {disfmarker} so I think it 's a neat thing to try . The primary features , {vocalsound} um , are in fact {disfmarker} Yeah , essentially , it 's {disfmarker} it 's , uh , you know , PLP or {disfmarker} or mel cepstrum , or something like that . You 've {disfmarker} you 've got some , {vocalsound} uh , compression . We always have some compression . We always have some {disfmarker} you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the kind of filter bank with a kind of {vocalsound} {vocalsound} quasi - log scaling . Um , {vocalsound} if you put in {disfmarker} if you also include the RASTA in it {disfmarker} i RASTA {disfmarker} the filtering being done in the log domain {vocalsound} has an AGC - like , uh , characteristic , which , you know , people typi typically put in these kind of , {vocalsound} uh , {pause} um , {vocalsound} uh , auditory front - ends . So it 's very , very similar , uh , but it 's not exactly the same . Um , I would agree that the second one is {disfmarker} is somewhat more different but , {vocalsound} um , it 's mainly different in that the things that we have been doing like that have been {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um , had a different kind of motivation and have ended up with different kinds of constraints . So , for instance , if you look at the LDA RASTA stuff , {vocalsound} you know , basically what they do is they {disfmarker} they look at the different eigenvectors out of the LDA and they form filters out of it . Right ? And those {pause} filters have different , uh , kinds of temporal extents and temporal characteristics . And so in fact they 're multi - scale . But , they 're not sort of systematically multi - scale , like " let 's start here and go to there , and go to there , and go to there " , and so forth . It 's more like , {vocalsound} you run it on this , you do discriminant analysis , and you find out what 's helpful .
Grad C: I it 's multi - scale because you use several of these in parallel ,
Professor B: Yeah . They use several of them .
Grad C: is that right ? Of {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad C: OK .
Professor B: Uh , I mean , you don't have to but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but , uh , Hynek has . Um , but it 's also , uh {disfmarker} Hyn - when Hynek 's had people do this kind of LDA analysis , they 've done it on frequency direction and they 've done it on the time direction . I think he may have had people sometimes doing it on both simultaneously {disfmarker} some two - D {disfmarker} and that would be the closest to these Gabor function kind of things . Uh , but I don't think they 've done that much of that . And , uh , the other thing that 's interesting {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the , uh {disfmarker} the feature selection thing , it 's a simple method , but I kinda like it . Um , {vocalsound} there 's a {disfmarker} {pause} a old , old method for feature selection . I mean , {pause} eh , uh , I remember people referring to it as old when I was playing with it twenty years ago , so I know it 's pretty old , uh , called Stepwise Linear Discriminant Analysis in which you {disfmarker} which {disfmarker} I think it 's used in social sciences a lot . So , you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you pick the best feature . And then {vocalsound} you take {disfmarker} y you find the next feature that 's the best in combination with it . And then so on and so on . And what {disfmarker} what Michael 's describing seems to me much , much better , because the problem with the stepwise discriminant analysis is that you don't know that {disfmarker} you know , if you 've {vocalsound} picked the right set of features . Just because something 's a good feature doesn't mean that you should be adding it . So , {vocalsound} um , {pause} uh , here at least you 're starting off with all of them , and you 're {vocalsound} throwing out useless features . I think that 's {disfmarker} that seems , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that seems like a lot better idea . Uh , you 're always looking at things in combination with other features . Um , so the only thing is , of course , there 's this {disfmarker} this artificial question of {disfmarker} of , uh , {vocalsound} exactly how you {disfmarker} how you a how you assess it and if {disfmarker} if your order had been different in throwing them out . I mean , it still isn't necessarily really optimal , but it seems like a pretty good heuristic . So I th I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I think it 's kinda neat stuff .
Grad E: Hmm .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , uh , the thing that I wanted to {disfmarker} to add to it also was to have us use this in a multi - stream way .
Grad E: Hmm .
Professor B: Um , so {disfmarker} so that , um , {vocalsound} when you come up with these different things , {vocalsound} and these different functions , {vocalsound} you don't necessarily just put them all into one huge vector , but perhaps {vocalsound} you {vocalsound} have some of them in one stream and some of them in another stream , and so forth . And , um , um , {comment} um {disfmarker} And we 've also talked a little bit about , uh , {vocalsound} uh , Shihab Shamma 's stuff , in which {vocalsound} you {disfmarker} the way you look at it is that there 's these different mappings and some of them emphasize , uh , upward moving , {vocalsound} uh , energy and fre and frequency . And some are emphasizing downward and {vocalsound} fast things and slow things and {disfmarker} and {pause} so forth . So . So there 's a bunch of stuff to look at . But , uh , I think we 're sorta gonna start off with what {vocalsound} he , uh , came here with and branch out {disfmarker} {vocalsound} branch out from there . And his advisor is here , too , {vocalsound} at the same time . So , he 'll be another {pause} interesting source of {pause} wisdom .
Grad E: Hmm .
Professor B: So .
Grad E: As {disfmarker} as we were talking about this I was thinking , {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} whether there 's a relationship between {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} between Michael 's approach to , uh , some {disfmarker} some sort of optimal brain damage or optimal brain surgeon on the neural nets .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad C: Hmm .
Grad E: So , like , if we have , um {disfmarker} we have our {disfmarker} we have our RASTA features and {disfmarker} and presumably the neural nets are {disfmarker} are learning some sort of a nonlinear mapping , {vocalsound} uh , from the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the features {vocalsound} to {disfmarker} to this {disfmarker} this probability posterior space .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Right ? And , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} and each of the hidden units is learning some sort of {disfmarker} some sort of {disfmarker} some sort of pattern . Right ? And it could be , like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} like these , um {disfmarker} these auditory patterns that Michael {pause} is looking at . And then when you 're looking at the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the , uh , {pause} um , {vocalsound} the best features , {vocalsound} you know , you can take out {disfmarker} you can do the {disfmarker} do this , uh , brain surgery by taking out , {vocalsound} um , hidden units that don't really help at all .
Professor B: Mm - hmm . Or the {disfmarker} or features .
Grad E: And this is k sorta like {disfmarker}
Professor B: Right ?
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor B: I mean , y actually , you make me think a {disfmarker} a very important point here is that , um , {vocalsound} if we a again try to look at how is this different from what we 're already doing , {vocalsound} uh , there 's a {disfmarker} a , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a nasty argument that could be made th that it 's {disfmarker} it 's not different at {disfmarker} at all , because , uh {disfmarker} if you ignore the {disfmarker} the selection part because we are going into a {disfmarker} a very powerful , {vocalsound} uh , nonlinearity that , uh , in fact is combining over time and frequency , and is coming up with its own {disfmarker} you know , better than Gabor functions its , you know , neural net functions ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: its {disfmarker} {comment} {vocalsound} whatever it finds to be best .
Grad C:
Professor B: Um , so you could argue that in fact it {disfmarker} But I {disfmarker} I don't actually believe that argument because I know that , um , {vocalsound} you can , uh {disfmarker} computing features is useful , even though {pause} in principle you haven't {pause} {vocalsound} added anything {disfmarker} in fact , you subtracted something , from the original waveform {disfmarker} You know , uh , if you 've {disfmarker} you 've processed it in some way you 've typically lost something {disfmarker} some information . And so , {vocalsound} you 've lost information and yet it does better with {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with features than it does with the waveform . So , uh , I {disfmarker} I know that i sometimes it 's useful to {disfmarker} {pause} to constrain things . So that 's {vocalsound} why it really seems like the constraint {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in all this stuff it 's the constraints that are actually what matters . Because if it wasn't {pause} the constraints that mattered , then we would 've completely solved this problem long ago , because long ago we already knew how to put waveforms into powerful statistical mechanisms . So .
PhD D: Yeah . Well , if we had infinite processing power and {pause} data , {comment} I guess , using the waveform could {disfmarker}
Grad E: Right .
Professor B: Yeah Uh , then it would work . Yeah , I agree . Yeah . There 's the problem .
PhD D: So , that 's {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah . Then it would work . But {disfmarker} but , I mean , i it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} With finite {pause} of those things {disfmarker} I mean , uh , we {disfmarker} we have done experiments where we literally have put waveforms in and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , uh ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: we kept the number of parameters the same and so forth , and it used a lot of training data . And it {disfmarker} and it {disfmarker} it , uh {disfmarker} not infinite but a lot , and then compared to the number parameters {disfmarker} and it {disfmarker} it , uh {disfmarker} it just doesn't do nearly as well . So , anyway the point is that you want to suppress {disfmarker}
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: it 's not just having the maximum information , you want to suppress , {vocalsound} uh , the aspects of the input signal that are not helpful for {disfmarker} for the discrimination you 're trying to make . So . So maybe just briefly , uh {disfmarker}
Grad E: Well , that sort of segues into {pause} what {disfmarker} what I 'm doing .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: Um , {vocalsound} so , uh , the big picture is k um , {vocalsound} come up with a set of , {vocalsound} uh , intermediate categories , then build intermediate category classifiers , then do recognition , and , um , improve speech recognition in that way . Um , so right now I 'm in {disfmarker} in the phase where {vocalsound} I 'm looking at {disfmarker} at , um , deciding on a initial set of intermediate categories . And {vocalsound} I 'm looking {vocalsound} for data data - driven {pause} methods that can help me find , {vocalsound} um , a set of intermediate categories {vocalsound} of speech that , uh , will help me to discriminate {pause} later down the line . And one of the ideas , {vocalsound} um , that was to take a {disfmarker} take a neural net {disfmarker} train {disfmarker} train an ordinary neural net {vocalsound} to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , to learn the posterior probabilities of phones . And so , um , at the end of the day you have this neural net and it has hidden {disfmarker} {vocalsound} hidden units . And each of these hidden units is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um , is learning some sort of pattern . And so , um , what {disfmarker} what are these patterns ?
PhD A: Hmm .
Grad E: I don't know . Um , and I 'm gonna to try to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to look at those patterns {vocalsound} to {disfmarker} to see , {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} from those patterns {disfmarker} uh , presumably those are important patterns for discriminating between phone classes . And maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} maybe some , uh , intermediate categories can come from {vocalsound} just looking at the patterns of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um , that the neural net learns .
Professor B: Be - before you get on the next part l let me just point out that s there 's {disfmarker} there 's a {disfmarker} a pretty nice {comment} {vocalsound} relationship between what you 're talking about doing and what you 're talking about doing there . Right ?
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor B: So , {vocalsound} it seems to me that , you know , if you take away the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {pause} the difference of this {pause} primary features , {vocalsound} and , say , you use {disfmarker} as we had talked about maybe doing {disfmarker} you use P - RASTA - PLP or something for the {disfmarker} the primary features , {vocalsound} um , then this feature discovery , {pause} uh , uh , thing {vocalsound} is just what he 's talking about doing , too , except that he 's talking about doing them in order to discover {pause} intermediate categories that correspond {vocalsound} to these {disfmarker} uh , uh , what these sub - features are {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} are showing you . And , um , {vocalsound} the other difference is that , um , {vocalsound} he 's doing this in a {disfmarker} in a multi - band setting , which means that he 's constraining himself {vocalsound} to look across time in some f relatively limited , uh , uh , spectral extent . Right ? And whereas in {disfmarker} in this case you 're saying " let 's just do it unconstrained " . So they 're {disfmarker} they 're really pretty related and maybe they 'll be {disfmarker} at some point where we 'll see the {disfmarker} the connections a little better and {vocalsound} connect them .
Grad C: Hmm .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Um . Yeah , so {disfmarker} so that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the first part {disfmarker} uh , one {disfmarker} one of the ideas to get at some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} some patterns of intermediate categories . Um , {vocalsound} the other one {pause} was , {vocalsound} um , to , {vocalsound} uh , come up with a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a model {disfmarker} {comment} um , a graphical model , {vocalsound} that treats {pause} the intermediate categories {vocalsound} as hidden {disfmarker} hidden variables , latent variables , that we don't know anything about , but that through , {vocalsound} um , s statistical training and the EM algorithm , {vocalsound} um , at the end of the day , {vocalsound} we have , um {disfmarker} we have learned something about these {disfmarker} these latent , um {disfmarker} latent variables which happen to correspond to {vocalsound} intermediate categories . Um . {vocalsound} {nonvocalsound} Yeah , and so those are the {disfmarker} the two directions that I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm looking into right now . And , uh , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah . I guess that 's {disfmarker} that 's it .
Professor B: OK . Should we do our digits and get ou get our treats ?
Grad E: Oh , tea time ?
Professor B: Yeah . It 's kind of like , you know , the little rats with the little thing dropping down to them .
PhD A: That 's ri
Professor B: We do the digits and then we get our treats .
Grad E: Oops .
PhD A: OK .
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Project Manager: Okay . Everybody found his place again ? Yeah ?
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: That's nice . Okay so this is our second meeting . And uh still failing ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh now we're going um into the functional design . Um important thing of this phase is that we're going to uh try to get an agreement about the user requirements , technical function design , and the working design . So that we can move onto the second uh phase . But first this phase . Um first an announcement . There's a little adaptation in the air conditioning system . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} There's our {vocalsound} ghost mouse again . That that means that you can have a little trouble with , little trouble with the air conditioning , that's because of this uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: It's in wing C_ and E_ .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: So it should be over in a in a while , couple of days . But it's going to be cold anyway , so {vocalsound} I don't think you're gonna need it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Then our agenda . Now first the opening . Uh this time I will take the minutes . Uh you're going to have a presentation . All of you . Um and we've got forty minutes for the whole uh prese for the whole uh presentations . So uh I suggest we take about seven minutes per presentation , and then we can have a little discussion about the new project requirements uh which have been sent to me . And then the decision on the control functions uh which we wanna include and those which we don't wanna include . So we've got forty minutes for all of it . So I suggest um let's start with the first presentation .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: Um who wants to be first ?
Marketing: Think I'll go first .
Project Manager: Okay . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Just maybe it's easier if you um {disfmarker} Yeah I think you will tell {gap} your presentation as well . Just which function you have and what you're gonna talk about . {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'Kay . My name is Freek Van Ponnen . I'm the Market Expert . But you already knew that . Um I've done some research . We have we uh have been doing research in a usability lab where we observed um users operating remote controls . Uh we let them fill out a questionnaire . We had one hundred of these uh test subjects . Uh in addition we did some market research . Uh see what the market consists of . What ages are involved . Well these are three quite astonishing results , I thought . Um remotes are being considered ugly . F uh seventy five percent of the um people questioned uh indicated that they thought their remote were was ugly . Um and an additional eighty percent indicated that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control . So {disfmarker} Um in addition remotes were not very functional . Fifty percent of the people indicated they only loo used about ten percent of the buttons on a remote control . And fifty percent of the people indicated that their remote tended to get lost in their room . So
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: some things . Then we did some research to the most relevant functions . Channel selection and volume selection um both got a ten on a scale of one to ten for relevancy . The power button got a nine . And teletext got a six and a half . So these are the most most uh important functions on a remote control . Then there are some one-time use function . That's what I like to call them . That uh audio settings , video settings , and channel settings buttons . Which are not really used very frequently , but are still considered to be of some importance . Um channel selection was also indicated to be used very frequently . One hundred and sixty eight times per hour . Then these are the {disfmarker} This is the market . Um sixty percent of the market consists of users between the ages sixteen and forty f six . Um {disfmarker} Main characteristic of this group is that they're very critical on the remote control . Um they like to use new f new functions . But they also are very critical . They won't spend their money very easily . So {disfmarker} Um the users of forty six to sixty five years cons The make up forty percent of the market . They are not really very interested in features . But they do tend to spend their money a lot easier . What I think this indicates for our um design . I think we should make a remote for the future . And this means we would um have to focus on the age ages sixteen to forty five . Uh this also makes up most the biggest part of the market , so that will also be where our main profit would be gettable . Um this would mean we would have to make a fancy design . Um {disfmarker} The results also indicated that um about one quarter of the people questioned thought that the remote control caused R_S_ R_S_I_ . Um this is certainly something to take into account . And thirty four percent thought that it was hard to learn a n how to operate a new control , remote control . So these are two factors that I think should be included in the design . Besides of course that the remote must look very nice . And the functionality {disfmarker} As a lot of people indicated , they only use about ten percent of the buttons , I think we should make very few buttons . Uh this will also be uh beneficial to the design of the remote . Uh I think the most frequently used buttons should be emphasised . Especially the channel selection and audio uh selection buttons . 'Cause they're used most and so they should be robust . They shouldn't break down easily . Um {disfmarker} Then as mo as a lot of people indicated that their um remote got lost in the room , it might be and I say might be because it would um certainly boost the uh production costs a lot . But it might be a good idea to make a docking station . And this would , could get a button in it which would send a signal to the remote which would then beep . So you'd know where it is in the room . And in addition to this it could um recharge the batteries in the remote if you put it in . Then um a surprisingly great deal of people w indicated that um an L_C_D_ screen in the remote control would be preferred . This was um mostly people in the age of sixteen to twenty five . But up till forty five it remains feasible . This would also greatly increase the production costs but I think these are just some small factors we could consider .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: That would be all .
Project Manager: Thank you . So anybody have um any questions until now ?
Marketing: Any questions ?
Project Manager: About functional requirements ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: that's clear . {gap} Now to the second .
Marketing: 'Kay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh okay . Um I've been looking at uh the user interface of it . Um f for the techno f functions uh of of it . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah you can take your time .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: We've got uh plenty of time ,
User Interface: Mm ?
Marketing: Yeah
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
Marketing: you should go to the top thingy . Slide show .
User Interface: Oh .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Uh .
Project Manager: Yeah . There it is . Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Oh yeah .
User Interface: Um yeah . I think uh we uh must use the general functions uh of the uh remote control . Uh uh I've do I've uh done a little uh research on the internet and {gap} not much information about it , {gap} {disfmarker} Um about uh interface but uh {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} Yeah I I've been thinking about a simple manner uh to put a lot of functions uh uh in one um in one uh remote control . Uh so uh you've got a lot of devi uh devices like uh D_V_D_ uh uh television , uh stereo . So um {disfmarker} But uh it must be uh user-friendly . So um uh you c you can't put a a lot of uh functions uh in one uh {disfmarker} Yeah . Uh uh uh {disfmarker} Yeah . In one um remote control .
Project Manager: One remote .
User Interface: But um {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Um yeah . Got uh many functions in one uh remote control , um but um yeah you can see , this is uh quite simple uh remote control .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um few uh buttons but uh {disfmarker} This uh re uh remote control got a a lot of uh buttons . Um uh people uh don't like it , uh so um {disfmarker} Well what uh I was uh thinking about was um uh keep the general functions uh like they are . So uh like uh the on-off uh button . Uh keep it uh yeah l like a red button . Uh everybody everybody knows it so uh uh you don't have to change that . Um {disfmarker} My personal uh preferences um . Use a display for uh specific uh functions of the different uh device . So um {disfmarker} Wh what I was th uh thinking about was um you've got um {disfmarker} Uh this the remote control uh {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and uh you got here the general functions , uh like uh the on-off button uh sound uh {vocalsound} I dunno um {disfmarker} And um here you've got a s kind of a display . It's a touchscreen . So um yeah you got a general f uh f the functions of the device uh for a D_V_D_ player or uh so um the pl yeah um f for uh playing uh reverse uh {gap} . And um you got here uh real buttons for uh selecting uh a device . So um this button is for a D_V_D_ or {vocalsound} {disfmarker} So um for every um device you've got a uh a f a b a part uh display of a part buttons . So uh you you never got uh all the buttons uh on w one device .
Project Manager: Hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: So uh that's uh my uh idea about it .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: Um yeah and {disfmarker} Uh let's see . Uh yeah . So a touchscreen . Uh and um th the buttons uh the real buttons uh we have to use um . We better c um uh use uh quite uh large buttons uh for um yeah . Everybody uh have to use it so {disfmarker} Uh ol even even old people um young people . So uh we must keep uh buttons uh quite s uh simple and quite large . So uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Uh yeah . That was uh my uh part of it .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Anybody has questions about the technical functions ?
Industrial Designer: Well
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: I think if we are gonna use a touchscreen uh we're gonna go way above the twelve and a half Euros .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: N I I don't think so . Uh you got uh quite a cheap uh touchscreen . S um it's uh not uh in colour or something .
Project Manager: Touchscreen .
User Interface: Uh it's just uh um one colo Uh yeah . Uh I seen uh w uh something on the internet uh not today but uh a few uh weeks ago . Uh you got uh yeah quite an uh a kind of uh touchscreen um and it's uh {vocalsound} for uh twenty uh Euros or uh less uh .
Project Manager: Huh .
User Interface: So it's possible .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: 'Kay . That's nice . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well it would certainly make a fancy design .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But the {disfmarker} It wouldn't be very robust .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's very fragile and you can get scratches on it .
Marketing: That is true .
Project Manager: That's right .
User Interface: Yeah that's true .
Project Manager: Uh maybe we can first um listen to your presentation ?
Marketing: We would have to look into that .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} And then we {gap} have a little discussion about the requirements and uh design .
User Interface: Uh .
Industrial Designer: That's {gap} . Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think it's going to {disfmarker} Uh it's not too much . Okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay I've got a presentation about the working design . Um first about how it works . It's really simple of course . Everybody knows how a remote works . The user presses a button . The remote determines what button it is , uses the infrared to send a signal to the T_V_ . The T_V_ switches to the frequency , or what function it is . So we've got um the the plate . It gots conductive disks for every button . When the user presses a button , a signal got sent , goes to the LED and transmits tranmi transmits its to the T_V_ . It's a very simple device , technically speaking . So this is a schematic overview . You've got the buttons . The power source . And uh when a button gets pressed , its goes to the chip . The chip uh controls the infrared bulb and perf perhaps a normal bulb . When you press a button you can actually see your pressed button . Well um I think we should use default materials , simple plastics . Keep the inner workings simple , so it's robust . Uh I think we should focus on aesthetics , the design and the user interface , because if you're going to use high-tech materials the price is going to go sky-high . And uh you only have to design a remote once , and if you use high-tech materials it come back in every product . So it's , in my idea , it's uh it's gonna be smart to invest in di in design and not in uh in the product itself . That's it .
Project Manager: Okay . Thank you . Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Okay now I hope everybody has a little bit more insight in the functions we all have and what we are doing right now . Um I'm the Project Manager so I'm here to mess things up and uh tell you some new uh requirements .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um that's , we've uh got to design a um remote which is only suitable for T_V_ . Um that's because {vocalsound} uh it will be too complex
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: and the time to market will be too big , if we wanna have it uh for more functions . So it has to be simple .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Uh another point is we have to skip the teletext , because in the world of uh upcoming internet uh we think teletext is going to be uh a thing of the past . And uh it's a function we don't need in our remote control .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um internet is also mentioned {gap} in a function we can use . Uh maybe also on televisions it will be available as well . Another one is uh the customer is uh forty plus . Uh that's the the market we have to to to target , because we are going to develop a new product which is specially designed for the younger customers . Um this is uh a bit pity for the Marketing uh Expert .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Because he was uh aiming on the the younger persons . So we have to find a market which is above forty plus uh but which will suit our uh remote control , and the other way round . And we have to be very uh attent in uh putting the corporate image uh in our product . So it has to be visible in our design , in the way our device works . And uh we have to be uh very clear on this point as well . So I suggest let's have a discussion on the control functions . Yeah .
Marketing: So is there any discussion possible about the new product requirement ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh we can see if we can find a way uh between the functions we wanna use and the market we wanna reach with our product . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm .
Marketing: Yeah 'cause you're you're saying that teletext is gonna be an old feature and it's not gonna be used anymore anyway pretty soon . And new T_V_s will have internet access on them .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But I think if you're targeting people of forty plus , the chance that they will have a T_V_ with internet access within the next like twenty years is very slim .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: In addition people indicated that teletext simply was an important feature for the remote control . So I think it's pretty dumb to put no teletext feature on it . I'm pretty much against it .
Project Manager: Against the no teletext ?
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Yes . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Besides that , I think the market for forty plus is like pretty small . But I mean if I s if I see this , it's {disfmarker} I think we're just gonna go for another
Project Manager: Yeah it's it is {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap} forty {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Standard remote .
Marketing: pretty
Project Manager: No I think we can
Marketing: and not innovative
Project Manager: I think we can do a lot with the design and the simple buttons
Marketing: remote control .
Project Manager: which were also mentioned . Uh if we put a lot of effort in those , we can make a remote control with uh just two or three buttons . Or just a remote which is suitable for the market we wanna reach because it is forty percent of the market .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: And um if you look in Holland at the whole generation of forty plus , fifty plus , it it's the the biggest share of the of the whole population now .
Marketing: Yes but it's not the biggest part of the market .
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: And besides that , they're not very critical so {disfmarker} I mean they don't really care what the remote control is like . They'll just pretty much take the first thing they see and which looks acceptable .
Project Manager: But don't you think that if we make a remote which is uh typically made for this market , that people think {gap} {disfmarker} the people think that's the the device I've looked for although I didn't realise it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So let's try it .
Marketing: No . I think that would be the case in the sixteen to forty five age category . because they are critical and they they want to have a fancy remote control .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: People of forty plus , I mean they want it to work , but as soo as soon as it works it's okay with them .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: I think that if we're {disfmarker} If we put our marketing right um we can sell this just like um {disfmarker} I don't know if you've heard about it in the news , the the elderly mobile phone ?
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . It's a big success .
Industrial Designer: Yeah if we if we make a remote control just l with that idea in mind , we could make tons of money , I think .
Project Manager: Very big success .
Marketing: I haven't heard of it .
Project Manager: Yeah . Uh . I think so as well .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: We don't have to focus on on on the on the design then but on functionality . We just change our focus on the project , and I think we can uh we can sell this .
Project Manager: Uh I simply think um
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: uh that the new products we are gonna make , uh spef specifically design , are designed for uh younger people , uh so maybe we can focus ourself on the elderly people . And I think we have to um see what requirements we need for those um remote controls . {vocalsound} 'Cause what you told is the channel selection is important . Volume selection , power and teletext . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Okay . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Yes . But obviously the board tends to disagree .
Project Manager: No we we haven't voted yet , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh I think teletext can be uh um can be a function as well . But only if uh if it won't higher the the cost , because I don't know if it will be a lot more money to implement teletext as well , but I don't think it will be a problem . Or is teletext a {disfmarker}
User Interface: But um deaf people need uh teletext for uh for subtitles .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: So it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , also .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . So I suggest uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think it'd definitely be a bad idea not to include teletext .
User Interface: It's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Is anybody um really against teletext ?
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: No ? Just that , that we just keep the teletext . I think that's a good idea as well , especially for the subtitles . Maybe we can make that um another point of advantage in our remote control , if we uh make a k a button ex for example for big subtitles , which is instantly on the remote control . For elderly people they can think , oh I wanna have subtitles ,
User Interface: Yeah yeah .
Project Manager: and they push the button and they get the big subtitles .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh that's a good idea .
Project Manager: Um so I think teletext can v can be very useful in our advantage . Um {disfmarker} Functionality should be few buttons , you said .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: I think uh that's very important we have a few buttons .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So to keep it simple .
Marketing: But I don't think that's really an issue any more 'cause {disfmarker} Well might be .
User Interface: If it's only for televi
Marketing: But I mean it , if it's only for T_V_ you're not gonna need a lot of buttons anyway .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: You need a one to zero button , next channel , previous channel ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: volume up , volume down , and some teletext buttons but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . But do you need {disfmarker}
User Interface: So we can s we can skip the display ,
Marketing: I think if you if you only l
User Interface: so uh we don't need it .
Project Manager: But do you need the buttons for one to zero .
Marketing: Nah .
Project Manager: Maybe c we can {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Think if you're gonna include teletext you do . I think many people like to use that .
Project Manager: Maybe we can use uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: 'Cause if you should , if you want to switch from channel one to like thirty five , you don't wanna push the next channel button thirty five times .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: No , maybe we can implement the scroll button ? Or a joystick like ?
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: There are other ways too . Just look if you look at telephones . The Sony telephone has a scroll button which is very useful in searching names or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Marketing: That's true but um I don't think there are many T_V_s that can switch channels that fast . And so you would need like the T_V_ would need an a function where you can actually view all channels and scroll through it . And I dunno if many channels would do have that . If many T_V_s have that .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: And besides that it's um {disfmarker} If we're gonna focus on elderly people they'll have to adapt . They're not used to using scroll buttons .
Project Manager: That's right .
Industrial Designer: So perhaps we should s stick to the basic layout .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {gap} the numbers yeah . Yeah they can see how much buttons there are going to be on on the display , and if it's too much we can uh reconsider it . But I think there won't be very much buttons .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Or there don't have to be a lot .
Marketing: But I don't think {disfmarker} I think if you're gonna make a remote control only to operate a T_V_ , you there's not much you can gain on um having as few buttons as possible . 'Cause I think there are pretty many remote controls that can only operate a T_V_ , which already only have the minimum number of buttons . I don't think there's much to be gained in that area .
Project Manager: The number of buttons ?
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: I think it's very important in the in the design .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: You can make a very fancy design uh with putting the buttons on the right places . And if you have less buttons you can do a lot more with {disfmarker}
Marketing: That is true but I think there's simply not much to gain on the competition when you when you're making a remote control only for to operate only the T_V_ .
Project Manager: To operate only the T_V_ yeah .
Marketing: 'Cause if you have a a remote control only to operate a T_V_ there's simply not a lot of buttons required . There's not a lot of functions required so most existing remote controls simply don't have a lot of buttons either .
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: So .
Marketing: So I think it would be very hard to actually gain on the competition here .
Project Manager: 'Kay . So we can {disfmarker}
Marketing: That would that would cost a a big marketing expedition
Project Manager: Yeah . That's right .
Marketing: which was one of the arguments to make it only for the T_V_ because we didn't have the time to market a lot .
Project Manager: Yeah . So you suggest we could better um focus on for example the docking station .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh uh like other functions . Instead of f of less buttons .
Marketing: Maybe . Well yeah I think , mean we obviously need a good way to position all the buttons and {disfmarker} But I don't think we should spend very much time in that .
Project Manager: Mm . No . Do you think the docking station will uh is allowed in the budget we have ?
Industrial Designer: It should be possible yes . If it's not too fancy .
Project Manager: 'Cause it can be {disfmarker}
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: And if the remote stays rather small , it should be possible
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah .
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: Because I think that's uh {disfmarker} That's a good advantage point as well . If we have a fancy-looking docking station
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: or very {disfmarker} {gap}
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: That's a nice requirement . Docking station .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So we're just gonna focus on the extras ?
Project Manager: I think so .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah I think maybe we should do some research into what elderly people like to have in a
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: like to have extra in a new remote control .
Project Manager: That's a good point . Um {disfmarker} You said they easily get lost as well .
Marketing: Yes well fifty percent of the people indicated that remote control tended to get lost .
Project Manager: Yeah . So maybe we should implement the audio sign , or something .
Marketing: Yeah that was what I suggested .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Like with your key-chain , if you whistle it goes uh it makes a sound .
Marketing: You have it on {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah
User Interface: Hm .
Marketing: you have it's on some phones too , which have a docking station .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: And you just press a button and the phone goes ringing .
Project Manager: Yeah . So
Marketing: So you know where it is .
Project Manager: audio signal should be possible as well . I think it's not too expensive .
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: {gap} Uh another point is the L_C_D_ screen . Um I don't know if that will rise the cost too much , because {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Y i um I think we'll have to choose between the docking station or the screen , 'cause
Project Manager: Yeah . It will be too much as well .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: it's uh {disfmarker} {gap}
Marketing: I think since a lot of people indicated that a new remote control is hard to learn , and we're focusing on elderly people here which tend to have a hard time understanding new devices , it might be a good idea to have just a little screen on it , which would explain a button if you press it . Which would tell you what it does .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: And it wouldn't have to be touchscreen or a very expensive screen ,
Project Manager: Based .
User Interface: Okay . Yeah .
Marketing: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just the L_C_D_ . Oh just the normal screen .
Marketing: Just a small screen
Project Manager: That's a good idea . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: with two {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Some extra info . Feedback .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . I think that's a good idea as well .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: But I dunno if that would
Project Manager: As the small screen .
Marketing: that would fit into the costs .
Project Manager: Extra button info . I think that should be possible as well . Um {vocalsound} let's see what did we say . Mm . More . Should be fancy to , fancy design , easy to learn . Few buttons , we talked about that . Docking station , L_C_D_ . Um general functions {disfmarker} Yeah . 'Kay . And default materials . I think that's a good idea as well , because um elderly people don't mind if it's a titanium cover or just a plastic one .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So that doesn't really matter .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: So I think we nee
Marketing: I think probably elderly people would be a little bit more careful with their remote controls than youngsters .
Project Manager: Uh let's um specify the target group . Because are we talking about elderly elderly people or people from forty to eighty . Because I think what we're going to design now is for people above sixty , maybe .
User Interface: Mm . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh what do we want ? If we want um a {gap} with uh for example the the telephone for elderly people , we can
Marketing: I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: target the real elderly people .
Marketing: I think that would be a {disfmarker} If we should do something like that it would be a , I think it would be really good for uh for the image of the company .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: And I think , I think there would be a good market for it .
Project Manager: So that's the {disfmarker}
Marketing: If we're able to really bring an innovative product .
Project Manager: {gap} Now you're talking about sixty to eighty for example .
Marketing: Yeah the really {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Sixty .
Marketing: But I'd have to look into that a little more .
Project Manager: Okay . And different cultures . Are we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well I don't think they have different television sets uh
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: in uh every country .
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: 'Cause {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We've got five minutes left {vocalsound} just now .
User Interface: So 'Kay .
Project Manager: Small warning .
Marketing: 'Kay . And with uh the little screen in it , {gap} which explains the buttons . You could {disfmarker} I think we n it would be a lot easier to
Project Manager: Should {disfmarker}
Marketing: adapt it to different cultures .
Project Manager: Yeah . In different languages , you know . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: or you have to put a language button in it ,
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: but that will be a bit unnecessary I think .
User Interface: No . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: It's better to put it on different markets with it all .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . So
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: that's the the target . Uh then a few small things .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh okay . I will put the minutes in the project uh project document folder . {vocalsound} Um what we're going to do for the next meeting is the Industrial Designer will do the components concept , User Interface Designer the user interface concept , and the trend-watching . So just keep in mind the things we've said about the target group , {vocalsound} uh requirements , and the trends which are uh going on . And uh specific instructions will be sent to you by uh the personal coach . So um
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: I thank you for this meeting . And I think we have a lunch-break now .
Marketing: That's good .
Project Manager: So that's a good thing .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
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Marketing: Oh right okay . {vocalsound} I cover myself up . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I feel like Madonna with one of these on . I said I feel like Madonna with one of these on . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I've always wanted one of these , I really have . {vocalsound} Where do you buy 'em from ? {vocalsound} They're {gap} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right . Hello everybody .
User Interface: Hello .
Project Manager: Back again for another wonderful meeting .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Is uh everyone ready ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Almost . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , we c we can hold on for a minute .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh my gosh . {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I figured with the spam thing , if you can't beat it , join in . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: That's the kind of spam that everybody likes to receive .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm 'kay .
Project Manager: Are you ready ? Okay , right , well , I take it that you are all ready now .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um alright first off we'll just uh recap from our last meeting . Um {vocalsound} which was we got together just to basically decide on {disfmarker} well to talk about what it is that we were actually uh supposed to be doing ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and who we all are and stuff like that , mm get bit more of an idea together of what's going on . {vocalsound} Um what we are gonna talk about in this meeting is um now that we know what it is that we are doing , now we know that it's a T_V_ remote and stuff and you guys have just been off doing some some uh R_ and D_ for that , that's research and development for those that haven't heard that before ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: see I'm learning all sorts of new technologi terms in technology today . Um yeah , we're gonna hear your uh th three little presentations ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: whether they be on computer or on the whiteboard or whatever you want .
User Interface: Hmm . {vocalsound} Do you have any preference uh of order ?
Project Manager: Um I'd like to um hear
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: o I'd like to hear who's g who's on the um from from uh Catherine actually first . I want {disfmarker} what I'd like to hear about is uh if we've finally decided on um what sort of energy we're gonna be using and
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Batteries .
User Interface: I think she is still finishing her {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No no no no , it's fine I'm just preparing .
Project Manager: It's just that {disfmarker} yeah , let's let's hear from you first .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Where is that thing ?
User Interface: Okay , it's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's here .
Industrial Designer: Oh sorry , couldn't see .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Would that work ?
Project Manager: Get yourself in position . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay , so that's me again .
Marketing: Ah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um so um for the energy sources we can have a basic battery , a hand dynamo which is {disfmarker} which was used uh in the fifties for torches , if you remember that kind of {disfmarker} which wouldn't be v wouldn't be v v
Project Manager: I don't think any of us remember the fifties .
User Interface: Is it like a crank thing or something {gap} .
Industrial Designer: yeah , yeah . It wouldn't be very fancy .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You can have a kinetic provision of energy , which is used on some watches these days . So if you have just a bit of gentle movement that {disfmarker} it will give it the energy to work .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Or you can use solar cells , but I'm not sure about that indoors , really , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , there's sometimes combinations , I mean , like calculators do combinations of battery with {disfmarker} but also using some solar power .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Do {gap} sol solar panel things , do they have to work from the sun or can they work from a light bulb ?
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Does anybody know ?
Industrial Designer: I dunno actually .
User Interface: Uh I think , it has to be on the on the solar energy , but I don't know .
Industrial Designer: I dunno . Um . Think the the uh what would cost the less would be the basic battery , really .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And uh if we want something fancier , I think the kinetic provision of energy could be nice ,
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: but I don't know if it's worth the cost . So we've got to discuss that .
Project Manager: Mm . Okay , jolly good .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} For the case of the remotes itself , um they can be a general case , which is just a flat one . You can have uh a curved one or a double curved one , if you know what I mean , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What's a double curved one ?
Industrial Designer: You know , kind of more ergonomic , that kind of suits the palm of your hand , that kind of thing .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um then the case material itself , so it can be uh uh either plastic or latex , uh rubber , wood , or titanium . And th for each of them you have uh cases where {disfmarker} for example titanium , you can't use it for {disfmarker} if you if we're choosing a double curved case , we can't choose titanium . And if we are choosing um solar cells then we can't choose latex for the case material , so we just have to take that into account . But if we're choosing just the flat case then we can go for anything . And I think we discussed earlier on the R_ S_ I_ problem thing , so we could uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So that might be an idea of using the rubber ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: but then it should , you know {disfmarker}
User Interface: Let's have a squeezable remote . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . And also it doesn't break as easily maybe ,
Project Manager: {gap} when a T_V_ programme's got one {gap}
Industrial Designer: I dunno {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: watching the match and {gap} your team's just lost , you can fuzz it across the room and it'll bounce off the wall back at you .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , I like that idea .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: So rubber would be {disfmarker} Okay .
Marketing: I think rubber's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Rubber , we're all we're all going {disfmarker} we're all liking that idea ? You think you can market that ?
Marketing: But after my after my fashion thing , I think you'll realise that rubber is more {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ooh , we like rubber , ooh . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh s so if d
Marketing: People . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: okay . And then there are the push-buttons , so you can have basic push-buttons or a scroll-wheels , like you have on a mouse , um or you could have um L_C_D_ , which gives you a display . Um scroll buttons , as well .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: So if you use a rubber double curved case , you must use rubber push-buttons . So if we're going for rubber then we have to decide for the case . Um and if we choose double curved then we have to go for rubber push-buttons .
Project Manager: Well , we're gonna go with {gap} I think we've decided that it's gonna be a rubber case so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So it's a constraint . Yeah , but is it a double curved one or not ? {vocalsound} If it's not a double curved , then we've got the choice for the push-buttons , if it's a double curve , we've gotta go for rubber push-buttons . If that makes sense .
Project Manager: {gap} push buttons instead of the wheel ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {gap} .
User Interface: If it's rubber , isn't it malleable anyway , {gap} it doesn't matter if it's double {disfmarker} I mean isn't a rubber case , mean it's completely flexed , I mean , it it flexes to whatever they want it to ? Mean so what's the difference between a normal rubber case and a rubble doub double {disfmarker} rubber double curved case ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} rubble double double . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No , but na le you see , you've got , okay , the energy that's one thing ,
Project Manager: I'll have a Big Mac , please . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: then you have the case is uh , whether it's flat or curved . And that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we don't care if it's rub rubber or not , but then we've decided that we going for rubber for the case material . So if we've chosen rub rubber and if now we have the choice for the case whether it's flat , single curved or double curved . And I'm just saying if it {disfmarker} if we choose it to be double curved then we need to go {disfmarker} I dunno why , but we need to go for uh rubber push-buttons . So , either {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I dunno we just need to decide on the on the case .
Project Manager: Let's have rubber push buttons , hey .
User Interface: Okay . Go rubber . Go rubber the whole way .
Industrial Designer: Let's go crazy . {vocalsound} And then , do I have a last slide ? Yes , I do . Um so the push-buttons themselves they can be just simple or they can be {disfmarker} so that's just the electronics between the but behind the push-buttons .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um and the price that go with it with it , so the simple push-buttons are gonna be the cheapest . Uh if we get a scroll-wheel , that's a higher price range . If we get an advanced chip which is um used for the L_C_D_ , the display thing , then that's even more expensive .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Simple , yeah . Chip on print . It's a bit {gap} . {vocalsound} Okay , uh what I'm not understanding here
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} is uh , okay , advanced chip on print , which I presume is like one P_C_B_ and that's got all the electronics on one board including the um infra-red sender ?
Industrial Designer: {gap} . Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The infra-red . Yeah .
Project Manager: Right . Um what a what alternatives do we have to that ? {vocalsound} Y um {vocalsound} what alternatives do we have to the chip on print ?
Industrial Designer: Well , if if it's not chip on print then , I guess , you get different chip components , and you build them separately and doesn't include the infra-red . It's less expensive mm {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} so it sounds {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Technically speaking , it's not as advanced , but it does the job , too . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , why would we not go for that ? If it's something that's inside the the unit . {vocalsound} I it doesn't affects whether the customer's gonna buy it or not .
Industrial Designer: Fo It doesn't , yeah , yeah , yeah . Totally . Yeah .
Project Manager: Um we wanna go for an i i all {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So let's not go for the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: so long as it works ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah . I agree .
Project Manager: you know . So let's not let's uh not bother with the chip on print .
Industrial Designer: So it's either um the scroll-wheel or the push-buttons .
Project Manager: Yeah . S yeah , push buttons .
Marketing: What about the just developed uh sample sensor ?
User Interface: I think push-buttons is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What about what ?
Marketing: G there , the sample sensor , sample speaker thing .
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well , what do we need a speaker for in a remote control unit ?
Marketing: Mm , I dunno . Be cool .
Industrial Designer: It'd be it'd be cool , but they are saying they've just developed it ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Channel two . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'm just guessing . But it's gonna be the most expensive option , probably and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: S
User Interface: Th the the {vocalsound} speech recognition um option is {disfmarker} it doesn't seem really very promising for us uh ,
Project Manager: Yeah . It's not something that we wanna t go into with this product .
User Interface: 'cause uh {disfmarker} The yeah the example that they're already using it for is with the coffee machine , where , basically , you can program a sample wi um {disfmarker} That when you say something it will give a response , and you program the response as well . Just uh clips of tha that you record yourself . So you can program your coffee-maker that when you say , good morning , to it it says , hello Rick , or whatever .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: But , I mean , it's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hm .
User Interface: it would be one thing if it was speech recognition where you say something and it turns the T_V_ on like , turn the T_V_ on , and i turns {disfmarker} comes on , but it's not that . It just gives you a it just gives you a verbal response .
Marketing: Oh , it just gives an answer .
User Interface: So , yeah , I mean , like what's the point of saying , Hello remote , I mean , hello , how how are you ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh , then then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Just if you are really lonely , maybe . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I thought I thought it was {disfmarker} when they said {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , if you're really lonely , it is it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: I thought when they said , voice recognition , they meant um like ,
Industrial Designer: Channel five . And then it switches on .
Marketing: channel five , and it will change .
User Interface: No , tha that w that w that would be more promising .
Marketing: Like you talk to it . Can I have channel five ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It it's just a remote that talks to you .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Uh . {vocalsound} I mean to certain cues .
Marketing: Oh , then {gap} forget about it . Oh right okay .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so I'll go back , maybe , to the previous slide and we can decide for each problem , what we should choose . So for the energy source , do we go for the battery or the {disfmarker}
User Interface: 'Kay . Yeah , I'm fine with the basic battery .
Project Manager: Basic battery .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: It's cheap , it's cheerful , it's worked , does work .
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Cheaper option . Are you happy with that ?
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay . So we'll go for the battery . Then the case , do you want it flat or curved or sing or double curved ?
Project Manager: We were go we were going with the late with the the R_S_I_ rubber , weren't we ?
User Interface: Yeah , so we want it rub rubber double curved . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The the {gap} {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: So it will look like something like this .
Industrial Designer: Double ?
Project Manager: The double whopper , please .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so then if we use double curved case , then we have to u choose rubber push-buttons ,
Project Manager: Yep , but {disfmarker} we're going for the simple buttons .
User Interface: So rubber rubber keys , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and that's fine ?
Project Manager: And it's cheapest all round , it sounds kinda funky , and we can also market it
Industrial Designer: P
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: as i 'cause we were s saying earl you were saying earlier in your research that um the the people have the R_ {disfmarker} people were getting the {disfmarker} complaining about R_S_I_ , and this is anti-R_S_I_ .
Marketing: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So that's another marketing point that we can use .
Marketing: Well the rubber push-buttons {gap} . Don't you have to move your {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But anything is gonna have buttons .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Even if it's a jog wheel , it's still repetitive . You {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I thought they would give an option of flat buttons or a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You see , you can still get {disfmarker} it does you still get repetitive strain injury , whether you are pressing a button or pressing a flat bit of screen .
Industrial Designer: That they don't . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's the v it's the fact that you are pressing the same {disfmarker} doing the same movement .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: {gap} .
Project Manager: It's not actually what you are doing .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But the fact that this this rubber i is actually used in these anti-R_S_I_ ps specific {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , the rubber's good .
User Interface: We're giving them a way to burn off steam , basically , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , so they can sit there and go like {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Not that watching T_V_ should be that stressful .
Project Manager: And you know , yeah , you can fuzz it across the room and throw it at throw it at your children {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh yeah , I guess T_V_ can be stressful , yeah , if you're watching sports .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright , that's me done .
Project Manager: Okay , Gabriel . Let's um let's let's hear from you about the um it's {disfmarker} the interface .
User Interface: Alright . Alright . Yeah , some of what I have to say ties into what Catherine was just talking about .
Project Manager: Great .
Industrial Designer: Sorry .
User Interface: Okay , so I'm continuing with the user interface uh topic . And so basically I consulted with our manufacturing division . It sounded like Catherine was also speaking with them . Uh I also took uh Reissa's marketing findings from the last meeting into consideration um , 'cause I think that's that's crucial as far as uh what keys we're going to inc inclu what buttons we are going to include and and how they're laid out .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Uh and so the manufacturing division uh sent some some samples of of uh interface components that we might be interested in using that have been used in other products , uh like the coffee machine . So I already mentioned the speech recognition interface .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I guess , we we basically vetoed that idea . It's it's pointless .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Uh it's just a sample sensor sample output . It would just be probably the most expensive part of our remote without any actual interesting functionality as far as operating the T_V_ . Uh so yeah , they they also give the uh {disfmarker} they they suggested the idea of using a spinning wheel like you use on the side of an M_P_ three player like iPod .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Um so we've already addressed that and I think that would actually be worse for something like R_S_I_ I mean you got that thumb movement that you're constantly doing .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Um the other suggestion ,
Marketing: That does get annoying .
User Interface: and I I have a feeling that we're interested in in something more general , but they suggested uh , you know , going i a little bit into a a niche , like either gearing our remote towards kids , where you could have {gap} lot of colours um , the keys might be you know , funny or or {gap} ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: or uh something for the elderly , where the remote's very large and the buttons are very large and there's only a few buttons . But you know we can we can discuss this , but it sounded like from our last meeting we really wanted something that was general , but done well .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Uh {gap} um {disfmarker} So , the key layout and design are really crucial . You don't want uh you want people to be able to quickly access the buttons that they use a lot without uh always pressing the wrong one um . And I didn't mention that we need a power button {gap} in our last {disfmarker} I can give you an example here of uh , {gap} good layout and bad layout
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: uh from our manufacturing department . So this would be an example of bad layout , where you have volume up and volume down , but they have a V_ on both of them , so uh
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: it's sort of confusing for the user . Uh this is the example of the giant remote that's impossible to lose .
Project Manager: Do we have an uh example of a good one ? {gap} {vocalsound} Brilliant .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh-huh . Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} And for {disfmarker} something for kids . Yeah . Um .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: And so , yeah , I th I think my personal preferences of {disfmarker} we've all kind of talked about and seemed to be on the same page um . Uh so I was against the speech recognition and against going uh towards anything in in a niche sense . I think it should be more general .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I didn't I didn't think the spinning-wheel or the uh L_C_ display were were crucial for us . And , yeah , that's it for me .
Project Manager: Okay . Well let's um {disfmarker} so w what are our definite decisions on this then as a team ? The um {disfmarker} The the um the interface type we're going for {disfmarker}
User Interface: So we're {disfmarker} we're not gonna have any sort of display I think uh .
Project Manager: Just the simple s simple straight set of buttons .
User Interface: So , yeah , it's just gonna be just gonna be push-buttons . Um . I think we shall have a limited number of buttons ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: ideally , I mean a a power , channel up , channel down , volume up , volume down , and a numerical keypad .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Uh . And some sort of {disfmarker} it will either have a a lock button like we mentioned or or a cover or something like that .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: I guess it's to the point where we need to decide about that .
Project Manager: Okay , and we're not {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Well now that we've decided on our {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} Are we gonna hav hav {disfmarker} an {disfmarker} are we d
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: have we decided on whether w we're gonna s supplement it with anything , you know , colours or particular gimmicky bits to it , we're not we're just gonna go for something {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um it seems like we wouldn't wanna make it too busy and too sort of gaudy ,
Project Manager: We're {disfmarker}
Marketing: Maybe we can {disfmarker}
User Interface: but um {disfmarker} Yeah , I would say mayb maybe a couple of colours like uh like a black with with yellow and somewhere , like maybe the R_R_ can be yellow , or something like that .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah . Okay . Okey-dokey . Yeah , I don't have any other questions on this . Let's move over to {disfmarker}
User Interface: I I guess {vocalsound} the fact uh also that we are having a rubber case uh would prevent us from having the cover function that we thought of before .
Project Manager: Yeah , sure .
User Interface: I mean , 'cause uh s so if we wanna have a lock of some sort it would have to be a button .
Project Manager: {gap} .
User Interface: But I think that should be {disfmarker} I mean um , I can speak with the button department , but uh I think that it should be easy to have a button that just prevents prevents the other uh the other buttons from operating .
Project Manager: Yeah , the button that just does that , yeah .
User Interface: So that should be simple .
Project Manager: Cool .
Marketing: Right . Well , I'm just basically letting you know what's happening in the markets
Project Manager: Mm yeah .
Marketing: and what the fashions are for next year . Um . So yes {vocalsound} , so from looking at this year's trends and fashions
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and also recent investigation that we've done in the remote control market , we have found that for the remote control market {vocalsound} these are like most important aspects like that we really need to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: which we've already probably discussed . Um {vocalsound} the most important aspect is look and feel . So the remote control has to look and feel fancier than the ones that already {disfmarker} that we already have . So it has to be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , why should people buy this when they're already got a remote that came with the T_V_ ?
Marketing: Yep .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Exactly .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um second , uh it should be technologically innovative innovative . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What's that mean ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Technologically it should be like um work , basically , I guess . It should work .
User Interface: Well it should be it should be maybe cutting edge in some sense ,
Marketing: Should {disfmarker}
User Interface: I mean have something that's little more technologically advanced than what's on the market .
Marketing: That's new .
Project Manager: Okay , now the trouble is is we've already decided that we're going with the stuff that works already , that's cheap .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . Actually , I mean , these first two points we've already sort of gone away from ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: 'cause our rubber one is not fancy {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: I mean it's different , but I wouldn't say like a rubber remote is fancy . If that's what people want then we {disfmarker} maybe we're going in the wrong direction . And it's it's not technologically innovative either .
Project Manager: Maybe we could um {disfmarker}
Marketing: So , {gap} no loose {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: That's why I was thinking , Bluetooth , 'cause if you like put up Bluetooth , and it's like a Bluetooth remote control , everybody's gonna like , oh , 'cause Bluetooth is the in thing nowadays , like it really is {vocalsound} , like people {disfmarker} and um when it comes to marketing like that's what people go for , they don't really care whether , you know , at the end of the day whether it works properly or not .
Project Manager: Of course , they do .
Marketing: Well , they do , but it's like it's not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} One hundred per cent , that's your first thing , you go , oh I'm not gonna buy that , 'cause I dunno if it works or not .
Marketing: Yeah , but it looks good . If it looks good and it's {disfmarker} it can just be there for decoration . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , well , what do you two think about this ?
User Interface: So is is the advantage of Bluetooth that you can just like synchronise it with other
Marketing: But like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , what {disfmarker} I don't understand what m
User Interface: electronics ?
Marketing: You could always insert , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , that's basically what it allows you to do ,
Project Manager: Yeah ,
User Interface: right ?
Project Manager: and it {disfmarker} this is just gonna {gap} {disfmarker} all this is being used for is your television .
Marketing: Yeah , but , I mean , people like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It would {disfmarker} that would mean you'd need a television that has Bluetooth in it , which no no television does ,
Marketing: Well , if you're looking at {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you {gap} looking at something that's going to be bought by people , you have to make it new , you have to make it state of the art .
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: does it ? That would mean we'd have to make a television as well .
Industrial Designer: Bluetooth would , for example , enable you , I think , to um um connect {disfmarker} for example you if you get a w call on your mobile phone , but your mobile phone is downstairs or something , you would get on your television you're being called by this person right now . Things like that .
Project Manager: No , that would be your telephone {gap} in with your television .
Industrial Designer: No i
User Interface: Yeah , the {disfmarker} that wouldn't be the remote so much ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah ,
User Interface: I mean {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and i
Industrial Designer: No , but if you get Bluetooth on the remote , you'd be able to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Nah , the televi the television would have to be a Bluetooth compatible , basically .
Industrial Designer: I with the television , yeah . {gap} I was just trying to find an advantage . Wha what w what advantage would you get for the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Well , it doesn't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: An and there is no there is no such thing
Marketing: Like it doesn't have to be , you know , Bluetooth , that was just an idea , but like it needs do something that , you know , is new . Whether it's a battery {disfmarker} it could be something really really minor , you know , like {disfmarker} but I think we are really keeping to what is already out there , and people've already seen it , people've already got it .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: If we want something new , we need to move away from what we already have and um just go creative .
Industrial Designer: Maybe the kinetic mo provision of energy then . It's been done for watches , but I haven't seen that for remotes , yet .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Yeah , this {disfmarker} that's that's very good .
Marketing: And then you can market it . Never have to change a battery again . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Change the batteries ever again .
Project Manager: And and this is all tying in very nicely .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The fact that it's made out of this rubber , we can throw it about . Th we should encourage people to throw their remote controls about , because it charges itself up by doing it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , well , and in little characters you say , yeah , but not too much . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes , so can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But yeah , by the squeezing it the {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think , safety s
User Interface: Yeah , we can make the squeezing of the rubber be the be the generating {disfmarker} like the energy generator .
Project Manager: Yeah , that's a great idea . Well done .
Marketing: Yeah . Third most important aspect {vocalsound} uh is it's easy to use .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} we're all about that .
Marketing: And I think we've all um worked that out . Um okay , in the fashion , how it's supposed to look . Next year's fashion i very much in fruit and vegetables are thm are like the theme for cloths , shoes and furniture . {vocalsound} So next year people will be buying {vocalsound} , I found this really funny {vocalsound} , you know , strawberry shaped chairs ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay , so we could have keys that are like a b like a broccoli key and a uh and an avocado key on them .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I wanna watch the pineapple channel . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Rubber things . {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} and as it's rubber the feel which is in this year is spongy , so it's it's not quite spongy , but spongy , I would say is {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap} .
Project Manager: Well spongy , that's where {gap} . Yeah , we're we're ahead of the game there .
User Interface: Yeah , that's great for us .
Marketing: yeah , so we're in .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . And so personal {gap} what I was just saying like move away from the current remote controls uh like the look and the feel of the current ones and change the look and feel , while still keeping to the company's image , basically . So yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {gap} . I had to say {disfmarker}
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: So we're moving in the right direction like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Alright , yeah , no , this i this is good ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: so through all that we've {disfmarker} we go we're {disfmarker} right , we're gonna go go back to um going with the kinetic thing ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yep .
User Interface: Yeah , that's great .
Project Manager: that's great , using the spongy rubber that we were talking about that anti-R_S_I_ you can {disfmarker} as you squeeze it you are not only therapeuticising yourself , you are charging the batteries {vocalsound} ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm .
Project Manager: and um I'm not sure about the buttons being in the shape of fruit though .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No vegetables .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , I don't know how we incorporate {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: We don't have to follow every trend , I guess .
Marketing: Maybe make it like fruity colours or something .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Marketing: Some sort . Or {disfmarker}
User Interface: The power button could be like a big apple or something .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Well yeah , but Apple would sue you for that .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , this is true {gap} . {vocalsound}
User Interface: They don they don't own {vocalsound} all images of apples . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} sued the Beatles so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay , we'll make it a uh pomegranate , a big pomegranate .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , okay , it seems like the only thing that we haven't really finally um agreed on is its image . Like , yeah , we're we're saying no we don't want it to be fruit and vegetables , but we dunno what it should be ,
User Interface: {gap} .
Project Manager: or like are we going {disfmarker} yeah it looks slick , but what do what do we mean by slick sort of thing ?
Marketing: Well {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I think , if it's rubber it needs to be
Project Manager: I mean you said earlier on i {vocalsound} it should be funky .
Marketing: different . I think , it's {disfmarker} it should be {disfmarker} I mean , what do you associate with rubber ? You know like
Project Manager: {vocalsound} L keep it clean , keep it clean . {vocalsound}
Marketing: really different colours basically .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay , sor I sorry , I used the wrong word , what do you associate with the mate the material {vocalsound} that material ? {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um like I'm just thinking bright colours .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Bright natural colours , nothing too {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Bright , but not too bright . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Bright , but too {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Like no lime green or bright yellow or bright pink . Wanna make it different colours so {vocalsound} anybody can choo like like {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Like the volume buttons should be the {disfmarker} all the same colour and the d and the the channel buttons should be one colour and stuff like that , do you mean ?
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah . And on the back of it have the logo .
Project Manager: Okay , what {gap} ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Sure .
Industrial Designer: Why not ?
Project Manager: Okay . Tha
User Interface: The one thing I'm wondering about , I hope that we're not going like too much down a gimmicky road of of having {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , I mean we {disfmarker} that's we we {disfmarker}
User Interface: I mean if somebody go goes into the store they're gonna see like three or four normal remotes , and then a big spongy pink t tomato uh remote .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} This is the remote control tomato . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I mean {vocalsound} what are ninety per cent of people gonna take ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I can say in this country , you'll get , you know , lots of people wanting something really funky and cool . Like {disfmarker} and kids will be walking in with their parents saying , Mummy I wanna buy that one .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And uh parents will see the will see the pro as well , because it's um like kids won't break it , it's not breakable if you throw it around .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Especially with younger kids , you know they can pick it up and and {disfmarker} Yeah . The only thing is is that really small kids might chew on it , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well , it's it's gotta be chew proof . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} I'm gonna write that down .
Marketing: So {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: so it's rea it's quite
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: it's quite like um user friendly
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and also for different families , like like family use as well , so for little kids and for old ki like teenagers will like it , I think . Especially maybe younger girls if it's in pink they'll be like {gap} pink remote control for their room something .
Project Manager: So , what are you saying , maybe we should market it in different colours for different {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: so we could do like the pink range , the blue range , the green range , the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: So like you walk in , you're like , oh I like that remote control , because it's so bright , and then , and then the shop assistant comes up and says , oh what colour would you like ? and then they go like , oh I can choose the colour {vocalsound} wow . So it puts , I think , even the customer into more control over what they're buying instead of , you've got all colour it's either that or nothing . So they also get to pick . Well , personally I like walking into a shop and choosing a colour .
User Interface: Yeah I mean , that that seems to work well with for products like iPod ,
Marketing: It's um {disfmarker}
User Interface: where , you know , you have a variety of colours , that people feel like they're customising it when they buy it , even , you know , just just by the fact of choosing .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah . Mm .
Industrial Designer: Although I'd be curious to see how many uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: D you've got the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You know , there are some colours that I wouldn I would never choose , and I would be curious how many people choose that colour .
Project Manager: Well that's that can be down to bit of market researching you know ,
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: if that's easy enough to find out what colours are more popular .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And produce less of the silly colours , maybe .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Alright . Well um , we'll {disfmarker} alright let's {disfmarker} what we're gonna aim to get together by the next meeting then um {vocalsound} is from you Catherine wi your y y you know you're gonna be working on the the look and feel design .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: Um Gabriel , you're gonna be working on , you know {disfmarker} come up with the the user interface design . Then basically , you two are gonna be working together on this . You won't be going off to your separate offices .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Um and I think you are gonna get a chance to play with some clay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh right .
Project Manager: I think , yeah , it's gonna {vocalsound} you know ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: come up ki you know , be ab for the next meeting be able to come in and show us some some i some physical ideas . 'Cause at the moment , uh you know , it's it's hard .
Industrial Designer: Cool .
Project Manager: We were kinda going , yeah , it's gotta feel nice , it's gotta look cool and that it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It is .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: you know now we can actually start , you know , s some sort of physical something or other .
User Interface: That sounds good .
Project Manager: Um and you're gonna be working on the product evaluation .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Evaluation .
Project Manager: Um . {vocalsound} And I {vocalsound} will be uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: talking to the bosses , basically , and uh
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: f fielding off some more spam and uh
Industrial Designer: Great .
Project Manager: that's it really . Keeping things t well , uh you know , ho hopefully uh keeping things together . Um . Yeah , that's {disfmarker} This is this is uh good . So we know for definite we know we've we've now got some definite things going on . We definitely know how it's powered ,
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: we definitely know that um it's gonna be a simple buttons , we're not gonna be going for the new technological chip on print expensive things , so we've we're keeping the costs down . It's this rubber casing that we can sell as um fun and funky . Don't know of any other remote controls that are made out of this stuff .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: People , you know , people are saying , oh , standard stuff gives you repetitive strain injury , well this remote control is designed to do the complete opposite ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: It's supposed to fix it rather than cause it . Um . {gap} you know , we're gonna we we're gonna as a sort of extra something on it , you know what what extra things {disfmarker} are there extra things this product have ? We'll look into this lock key
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: facility , although whether or not it happens , {vocalsound} or is possible , I don't know , but something to look into . Okay . I think that's um {disfmarker} well done everybody . Anyone have any uh any questions ,
User Interface: Alright .
Project Manager: everyone know what they're doing ? 'Cause if you don't , you'll {disfmarker} I'm sure you'll soon get an e-mail about it .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm , I think we all know what we need to do now .
Marketing: S This gives you all the details ?
Project Manager: Okay . right well .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: It's um we're we've still couple of minutes until our meeting's due to finish . But um I got a note saying that you two who are gonna be working together {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so bef before you all disappear off just
User Interface: Okay , I'll stay in here .
Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound} um .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: hold hold fire . Um .
User Interface: Does the pay-raise immediately come into effect on our next pay-check , or is that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um I think , it's uh , yeah , I think , it's gonna be par part more of a profit sharing on the product .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So we're buying fut I mean , we're getting futures in the company {gap} . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , I think i I think that's I think that's the way it's gonna happen at the moment . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So we really have a incentive to make this remote work .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: I'd like to share in the coffee machine profits , because that's really doing well .
Project Manager: I want a share in the space rocket . Did you {gap} see that this k that this company {gap} we've made a spaceship .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: This company has its its fingers in a lot of different pots . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah , we're definitely not in the money making department .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} .
User Interface: Well I I did notice looking at {disfmarker} I mean , they told you that they wanted whatev our product to represent the the R_R_ brand and and to be immediately noticeable .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: I mean , if you look like at the coffee maker at the at the corporate web page , it's not obvious .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: R_R_ . Well it is to us , because we we worked worked here for years and we use that coffee machine , but it's {disfmarker} doesn't have the colour scheme of of the of the company anywhere on it obviously it's just sil silver and black .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's true .
Project Manager: And the spaceship doesn't have the R_ {vocalsound} {gap} have a massive R_ and R_ down the side of it
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Doesn't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but {disfmarker} I still want one . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Um I've just had a sign flashing up saying , finish the meeting .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Right , well , I guess that's us .
Project Manager: Yeah . It's not telling {disfmarker} it's not saying do anything in particular just yet . So maybe you should go back to your own offices .
User Interface: Okay . Right .
Industrial Designer: Are we taking these off ?
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah , it says you two {disfmarker}
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doc_69
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Professor C: Starts {disfmarker} No . No .
PhD D: No . That 's a different thing .
Professor C: There 's another {disfmarker} I don't know . It starts with a P or something . I forget the word for it , but it 's {disfmarker} it 's um
PhD D: Oh .
Professor C: Typically when you {disfmarker} you 're ab r starting around forty for most people , it starts to harden and then it 's just harder for the lens to shift things
PhD D: Oh .
Professor C: and th the {disfmarker} the symptom is typically that you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have to hold stuff uh uh further away to {disfmarker} to see it .
PhD E: Uh - huh . Yeah .
Professor C: In fact , uh m my brother 's a {pause} gerontological psychologist and he {disfmarker} he uh {vocalsound} came up with an {disfmarker} an uh {disfmarker} a uh body age test which uh gets down to sort of only three measurements that are good enough st statistical predictors of all the rest of it . And one of them is {disfmarker} is the distance {vocalsound} that you have to hold it at .
PhD D: Give someone a piece of paper and then they {disfmarker} Oh .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad A: We 're {disfmarker} we 're live by the way , so we 've got a good intro here
Professor C: Oh . Yeah . About how old I am .
Grad A: Yep .
Professor C: OK .
Grad A: We can edit that out if you want .
PhD D: Oh , that 's optional .
Professor C: No , that 's OK .
Grad A: OK . So . This time the form discussion should be very short ,
PhD D: You know .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: right ?
Professor C: It also should be {pause} later .
Grad A: OK .
Professor C: Because Jane uh is not here yet .
Grad A: Good point .
Professor C: And uh she 'll be most interested in that . Uh , she 's probably least involved in the signal - processing stuff so maybe we can just {disfmarker} just uh , I don't think we should go though an elaborate thing , but um uh Jose and I were just talking about {vocalsound} the uh {nonvocalsound} uh , speech e energy thing ,
PhD E: The @ @ {disfmarker}
Professor C: and I uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: We didn't talk about the derivatives . But I think , you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} i if I can {disfmarker} if you don't mind my {disfmarker} my speaking for you for a bit , um {vocalsound} Uh . Right now , that he 's not really showing any kind of uh distinction , but uh {disfmarker} but we discussed a couple of the possible things that uh he can look at . Um . And uh one is that uh this is all in log energy and log energy is basically compressing the distances {vocalsound} uh {pause} between things . Um {pause} Another is that he needs to play with the {disfmarker} the different uh {pause} uh temporal sizes . He was {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he was taking everything over two hundred milliseconds uh , and uh he 's going to vary that number and also look at moving windows , as we discussed before . Um And uh {disfmarker} and the other thing is that the {disfmarker} yeah doing the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} subtracting off the mean and the variance in the {disfmarker} {pause} uh and dividing it by the {pause} standard deviation in the log domain , {vocalsound} may not be {pause} the right thing to do .
Grad A: Hi Jane !
PhD E: Hi .
Grad A: We just started .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: Could you take that mike there ?
PhD D: Are these the long term means ? Like , over the whole {disfmarker} I mean , the means of {pause} what ?
Grad A: Thanks .
Professor C: Uh B Between {disfmarker} between {disfmarker}
PhD D: All the frames in the conversation ?
Professor C: No .
PhD D: Or of things that {disfmarker}
Professor C: Between {disfmarker} Neither . It 's uh between the pauses {pause} uh for some segment .
PhD E: No .
PhD D: Oh .
Professor C: And so i i his {disfmarker} his {disfmarker} He 's making the constraint it has to be at least two hundred milliseconds .
PhD D: Oh .
Professor C: And so you take that . And then he 's {disfmarker} he 's uh measuring at the frame level {disfmarker} still at the frame level , of what {disfmarker}
PhD D: Right .
Professor C: and then {disfmarker} and then just uh normalizing with that larger amount . um and {disfmarker} But one thing he was pointing out is when he {disfmarker} he looked at a bunch of examples in log domain , it is actually pretty hard to see {vocalsound} the change . And you can sort of {pause} see that , because of j of just putting it on the board that {vocalsound} if you sort of have log - X plus log - X , that 's the log of X plus the log of two
PhD E: Yep .
PhD D: Yeah , maybe it 's not log distributed .
PhD E: Mmm . Yeah .
Professor C: and it 's just , {pause} you know , it {disfmarker} it diminishes the {pause} effect of having two of them .
PhD E:
Professor C: Um .
PhD D: But you could do like a C D F there instead ? I mean , we don't know that the distribution here is normally .
Professor C: Yes , right . So {disfmarker} So what I was suggesting to him is that {disfmarker}
PhD D: So just some kind of a simple {disfmarker}
Professor C: Actually , a PDF . But , you know , uh But , either way .
PhD D: PDF
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah , eith eith uh {vocalsound} B
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: Something like that where it 's sort of data driven .
Professor C: Yeah , but I think {pause} also u I think a good first indicator is when the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the researcher looks at {vocalsound} examples of the data and can not see a change {pause} in how big the {disfmarker} the signal is , {vocalsound} when the two speaker {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor C: Then , that 's a problem right there . So . I think you should at least be able ,
PhD D: Oh yeah .
Professor C: doing casual looking and can get the sense , " Hey , there 's something there . " and then you can play around with the measures . And when he 's looking in the log domain he 's not really seeing it .
PhD D: Oh yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: So . And when he 's looking in straight energy he is , so that 's a good place to start .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: Um . So that was {disfmarker} that was the discussion we just had . Um . {vocalsound} The other thing Actually we ca had a question for Adam in this . Uh , when you did the {vocalsound} sampling ? uh {pause} over the {pause} speech segments or s or sampling over the {disfmarker} the individual channels in order to do the e uh the {pause} amplitude equalization , {vocalsound} did you do it over just the entire {disfmarker} everything in the mike channels ?
PhD E: How {disfmarker}
Professor C: You didn't try to find speech ?
Grad A: No , I just took over the entire s uh entire channel um {pause} sampled ten minutes randomly .
Professor C: Right , OK . So then that means that someone who didn't speak {pause} very much {vocalsound} would be largely represented by silence .
Grad A: Yep .
Professor C: And someone who would {disfmarker} who would be {disfmarker} So the normalization factor probably is {pause} i i i {pause} is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah , this was quite quick and dirty , and it was just for {pause} listening .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad A: And for listening it seems to work really well .
Professor C: OK .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: So .
Professor C: Yeah . But that 's {disfmarker}
Grad A: But , it 's not {disfmarker} Not a good measure .
Professor C: Right . So th
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: OK . So yeah there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} There 's a good chance then given that different people do talk different amounts {pause} that there is {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there is still a lot more to be gained from gain norm normalization with some sort
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah . Mmm .
Grad A: Yes , absolutely .
Professor C: if {disfmarker} if we can figure out a way to do it .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: Uh . But we were agreed that in addition to that {comment} uh there should be {pause} s stuff related to pitch and harmonics and so forth .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: So we didn't talk at all about uh the other derivatives , but uh again just {disfmarker} just looking at {disfmarker} Uh , I think uh Liz has a very good point , that in fact it would be much more graphic just to show {disfmarker} Well , actually , you do have some distributions here , uh for these cases .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor C: You have some histograms , um {pause} and {pause} uh , they don't look very separate .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: uh {vocalsound} {pause} separated .
PhD E: This is the {disfmarker} the first derivate of log of frame energy uh without any kind of normalization .
PhD D: What {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: Log energy . Sorry .
PhD E: These the These are the {disfmarker} the first experiments uh with comment uh
PhD D: Frame energy .
Grad A: Except that {pause} it 's hard to judge this because the {disfmarker} they 're not normalized . It 's just number of frames .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: But yeah , even so .
PhD D: W {vocalsound} I mean , what I meant is , even if you use linear , {pause} you know , raw {pause} measures , like {pause} raw energy or whatever ,
Professor C: " Number " {disfmarker}
PhD D: maybe we shouldn't make any assumptions about the distribution 's shape , and just use {disfmarker} you know , use the distribution to model the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {pause} the mean , or what y you know , rather than the mean take some {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah . But {disfmarker} And so in {disfmarker} in these he 's got that .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: He 's got some pictures . But he doesn't {disfmarker} he doesn't in the {disfmarker} he i
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: just in derivatives , but not in the {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah . Oh .
Professor C: but he d but he doesn't {disfmarker} doesn't {disfmarker}
PhD D: Right . So , we don't {pause} know what they look like {pause} on the , {pause} tsk {disfmarker} {comment} For the raw .
Professor C: But he didn't h have it for the energy . He had it for the derivatives . Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah . So . I mean , there might be something there . I don't know .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: Huh .
Grad A: Interesting
PhD E: Here I {disfmarker} I
Professor C: Oh that {disfmarker} yeah that 's a good q
PhD E: in {disfmarker} No I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't the result
Professor C: did {disfmarker} did you have this sort of thing , for just the {disfmarker} just the l r uh the {disfmarker} the unnormalized log energy ? OK . Yeah . So she {disfmarker} she 's right .
PhD E: but it 's the {disfmarker} it 's the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the following .
Professor C: That 's a {disfmarker}
PhD D: Well it might be just good to know what it looks like .
Professor C: Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} That 's uh {pause} cuz I 'd mentioned scatter plots before but she 's right ,
PhD D: Cuz {disfmarker}
PhD E: Huh ?
Professor C: I mean , even before you get the scatter plots , just looking at a single feature {vocalsound} uh , looking at the distribution , is a good thing to do .
PhD E: Yeah . Catal - uh {disfmarker} Combining the different possibilities of uh the parameters . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the scatter plot {pause} combining eh different {pause} n two combination .
Professor C: Yeah , but {disfmarker} but what she 's saying {pause} is , which is right , is {pause} le
PhD E: combination of two , {pause} of energy and derivate {disfmarker}
Professor C: I mean , let 's start with the {disfmarker} Before we get complicated , let 's start with the most basic wh thing , which is {pause} we 're arguing that if you take energy {disfmarker} uh if you look at the energy , that , when two people are speaking at the same time , usually {vocalsound} {pause} there 'll be more energy than when one is right ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: That 's {disfmarker} that sort of hypothesis .
PhD E: That 's right .
Professor C: And the first way you 'd look at that , uh s she 's , you know , absolutely right , is that you would just take a look at the distribution of those two things , much as you 've plotted them here ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: You know , but just {disfmarker} but just {disfmarker} {pause} just uh do it {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: Well in this case you have three . You have the silence , and that {disfmarker} that 's fine .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: So , uh with three colors or three shades or whatever , just {disfmarker} just look at those distributions .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: And then , given that as a base , you can see if that gets improved , you know , or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} {pause} or worsened {pause} by the {disfmarker} looking at regular energy , looking at log energy , we were just proposing that maybe it 's {disfmarker} you know , it 's harder to {pause} see with the log energy , um and uh also these different normalizations , does a particular choice of normalization make it better ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: But I had maybe made it too complicated by suggesting early on , that you look at scatter plots because that 's looking at a distribution in two dimensions . Let 's start off just in one , uh , with this feature .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor C: I think that 's probably the most basic thing , before anything very complicated .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: Um And then we w I think we 're agreed that pitch - related things are {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} are going to be a {disfmarker} a really likely candidate to help .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah . I agree , yeah . Uh - huh .
Professor C: Um {pause} But {pause} since {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh your intuition from looking at some of the data , is that when you looked at the regular energy , that it did in fact usually go up , {vocalsound} when two people were talking , {vocalsound} that 's {disfmarker} eh you know , you should be able to come up with a measure which will {pause} match your intuition .
PhD E: OK . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Professor C: And she 's right , that a {disfmarker} that having a {disfmarker} having {disfmarker} {comment} having this table , with a whole bunch of things , {pause} with the standard deviation , the variance and so forth , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's harder to interpret than just looking at the {disfmarker} the same kind of picture you have here .
PhD E: But {disfmarker} Uh - huh . Yeah . But {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's curious but uh I f I found it in the {disfmarker} in the mixed file , in one channel {vocalsound} that eh in several {disfmarker} oh e eh several times eh you have an speaker talking alone with a high level of energy
Professor C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD E: eh in the middle eh a zone of overlapping with mmm less energy
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: and eh come with another speaker with high energy
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: and the overlapping zone has eh less energy .
Professor C: Yeah . So there 'll be some cases for which {disfmarker}
PhD E: Because there reach very many
Professor C: But , the qu So {disfmarker} So they 'll be {disfmarker}
PhD D: Right .
Professor C: This is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I w want to point {pause} to visual things , But I mean they {disfmarker} there 'll be time {disfmarker} There 'll be overlap between the distributions , but the question is , " If it 's a reasonable feature at all , there 's some separation . "
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: Especially locally .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: So . Locally .
PhD E: just locally , yeah .
Grad A: And {disfmarker} I was just going to say that {disfmarker} that {pause} right now we 're just exploring .
PhD D: And the other thing is I Sorry . I {disfmarker}
Grad A: What you would imagine eventually , is that you 'll feed all of these features into some {pause} discriminative system .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad A: And so even if {disfmarker} if one of the features does a good job at one type of overlap , another feature might do a good job at another type of overlap .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
Professor C: Right . I mean the {disfmarker} the reason I had suggested the scatter f p features is I used to do this a lot , when we had thirteen or fifteen or twenty features {pause} to look at .
PhD E: Yeah , this is the {disfmarker}
Professor C: um Because something is a good feature uh by itself , you don't really know how it 'll behave in combination and so it 's nice to have as many {disfmarker} as many together at the same time as possible in uh in some reasonable visual form . There 's cool graphic things people have had sometimes to put together three or four in some funny {disfmarker} funny way . But it 's true that you shouldn't do any of that unless you know that the individual ones , at least , have {disfmarker} have some uh {disfmarker} some hope
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: Well , especially for normalizing .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: I mean , it 's really important to {pause} pick a normalization that matches the distribution for that feature .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: And it may not be the same for all the types of overlaps or the windows may not be the same . e Actually , I was wondering , {vocalsound} right now you 're taking a {disfmarker} all of the {pause} speech , from the whole meeting , and you 're trying to find points of overlap , but we don't really know which speaker is overlapping with which speaker ,
Professor C: Right .
PhD D: right ? So I mean another way would just be to take the speech from just , say , Morgan , And just Jane and then just their overlaps ,
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: like {disfmarker} but by hand , by cheating , and looking at you know , if you can detect something that way , because if we can't do it that way , there 's no good way that we 're going to be able to do it .
Grad A: No prayer .
PhD D: That {disfmarker} You know , there might be something helpful and cleaner about looking at just {pause} individuals and then that combination alone .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: Plus , I think it has more elegant {disfmarker} e
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: The m the right model will be {pause} easier to see that way . So if {disfmarker} I don't know , if you go through and you find Adam , cuz he has a lot of overlaps and some other speaker who also has e enough speech
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: and just sort of look at those three cases of Adam and the other person and the overlaps ,
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: maybe {disfmarker} and just look at the distributions , maybe there is a clear pattern
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: but we just can't see it because there 's too many combinations of {disfmarker} of people that can overlap .
PhD E: Uh - huh . Yeah .
Postdoc B: I had the same intuition last {disfmarker} last {disfmarker} last week .
PhD D: So . Just seems sort of complex .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: I think it 's {disfmarker} to start with it 's s your {disfmarker} your idea of simplifying , starting with something that {pause} you can see {pause} eh you know without the {pause} extra {pause} layers of {disfmarker}
PhD D: Right . Cuz if energy doesn't matter there , like {disfmarker} I don't think this is true , but what if
PhD E: To study individual ?
Postdoc B: Sorry , what ?
PhD D: Hmm ?
PhD E: To study individual ?
Postdoc B: Well , you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you don't have to study everybody individually
PhD D: Well , to study the simplest case to get rid of extra {disfmarker}
PhD E: The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} Consider {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: but {pause} just simple case and the one that has the lot of data associated with it .
PhD D: Right . Cuz what if it 's the case and I don't think this is true {disfmarker}
Grad A: That was a great overlap by the way .
PhD D: What if it 's the case that when two people overlap they equate their {disfmarker} you know , there 's a {pause} conservation of energy and everybody {disfmarker} both people talk more softly ? I don't think this happens at all .
Postdoc B: Or {disfmarker} or what if what if the equipment {disfmarker} what if the equipment adjusts somehow ,
PhD D: Or they get louder .
Postdoc B: there 's some equalizing in there ?
PhD D: Yeah or {disfmarker}
Professor C: Uh , no we don't have that .
PhD D: I mean .
Grad A: Well , but {disfmarker} But I think that 's what I was saying about different types of overlap .
Postdoc B: OK .
Professor C: But .
Postdoc B: Saturation .
PhD D: There are {disfmarker} there are different types , and within those types , like as Jose was saying , that {pause} sounded like a backchannel overlap , meaning the kind that 's {pause} a friendly encouragement , like " Mm - hmm . " , " Great ! " , " Yeah ! "
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: And it doesn't take {disfmarker} you don't take the floor . Um , but , some of those , as you showed , I think can be discriminated by the duration of the overlap .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: So . It {disfmarker} Actually the s new student , Don , who um Adam has met , and he was at one of our meetings {disfmarker} He 's {pause} getting his feet wet and then he 'll be starting again {pause} in mid - January . He 's interested in trying to distinguish the types of overlap . I don't know if he 's talked with you yet . But in sort of honing in on these different types
PhD E: Yeah . I don't consi Now I don't consider that possibility .
PhD D: and {disfmarker} So maybe {disfmarker}
PhD E: This is a s a general studio of the overlapping we 're studying the {disfmarker} i
Professor C: Yeah . Well {pause} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would s actually still recommend that he do the overall thing
PhD D: So it might be something that we can {pause} help by categorizing some of them and then , you know , look at that .
Professor C: because {pause} it would be the quickest thing for him to do . He could {disfmarker} You see , he already has all his stuff in place ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: he has the histogram mechanism , he has the stuff that subtracts out {disfmarker} and all he has to do is change it uh uh from {disfmarker} from log to plain energy and plot the histogram and look at it . And then he should go on and do the other stuff bec but {disfmarker} But this will {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah , no . I didn't mean that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} for you to do that , but I was thinking if {disfmarker} if Don and I are trying to get {pause} categories
Professor C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD D: and we label some data for you , and we say this is what we think is going {disfmarker} So you don't have to worry about it . And here 's the three types of overlaps .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: And we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll do the labelling for you .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: Hm - hmm .
PhD D: Um .
PhD E: Consider different class of overlap ?
PhD D: Yeah , that we would be working on anyway .
PhD E: If there 's time .
PhD D: Then maybe {pause} you can try some different things for those three cases , and see if that helps , or {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah . This is the thing I {disfmarker} I comment with you before , that uh we have a great variation of th situation of overlapping .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: And the behavior for energy is , uh log energy , {vocalsound} is not uh the same all the time .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: And {disfmarker}
Professor C: But I guess I was just saying that {disfmarker} that right now uh from the means that you gave , I don't have any sense of whether even , you know , there are any significant number of cases for which there is distinct {disfmarker} and I would imagine there should be some {disfmarker} you know , there should be {disfmarker} The distributions should be somewhat separated .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor C: Uh and I {disfmarker} I would still guess that if they are not separated at all , that there 's some {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's most likely something wrong in the way that we 're measuring it .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor C: Um , but {pause} um For instance , I mean I wouldn't expect that it was very common overall , that when two people were talking at the same time , that it would {disfmarker} that it really was lower ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: although sometimes , as you say , it would .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: So . So .
PhD D: Yeah , no , that was {disfmarker} That was a jok
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: or a sort of , a case where {disfmarker} where you would never know that unless you actually go and look at two individuals .
Professor C: I mean . No . It could {disfmarker} it probably does happen sometimes .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: Right .
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad A: Mind if I turned that light off ?
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: So .
Grad A: The flickering is annoying me .
Professor C: OK .
PhD D: It might the case , though , that the significant energy , just as Jose was saying , comes in the non - backchannel cases . Because in back Most people when they 're talking don't change their own {pause} energy when they get a backchannel , cuz they 're not really predicting the backchannel .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: And sometimes it 's a nod and sometimes it 's an " mm - hmm " .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: And the " mm - hmm " is really usually very low energy .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: So maybe those don't actually have much difference in energy . But {pause} all the other cases might .
Professor C: e {vocalsound} e and {disfmarker} and again what they {disfmarker} what difference there was would kind of be lost in taking the log ,
PhD D: and the backchannels are sort of easy to spot s in terms of their words or {disfmarker} I mean , just listen to it .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: So .
Professor C: so , as well .
PhD D: Well , it would be lost {pause} no matter what you do .
PhD E: But {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD D: It just {disfmarker}
Professor C: Mmm , no , if it 's {disfmarker} if i if it 's {disfmarker}
Grad A: Tone
Professor C: Well , it won't be as big .
PhD D: I mean , even if you take the log , you can {disfmarker} your model just has a more sensitive {pause} measures .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: Sure , but tone might be very
PhD D: So .
Grad A: Yeah , you 're " mm - hmm " tone is going to be very different .
PhD D: Yeah . Right . Right .
Grad A: You could imagine doing specialized ones for different types of backchannels , if you could {disfmarker} if you had a good model for it . Your " mm - hmm " detector .
Professor C: If {disfmarker} if you 're {disfmarker} a I guess my point is , if you 're doing essentially a linear separation , taking the log first does in fact make it harder to separate .
Grad A: Right .
Professor C: So it 's {disfmarker} So , uh if you i i So i if there {disfmarker} if there close to things it does
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: it 's a nonlinear operation that does in fact change the distinction . If you 're doing a non if you 're doing some fancy thing then {disfmarker} then yeah . And right now we 're essentially doing this linear thing by looking across here and {disfmarker} and saying we 're going to cut it here . Um and that {disfmarker} that 's the indicator that we 're getting . But anyway , yeah , we 're not {pause} disagreeing on any of this , we should look at it more uh {disfmarker} more finely , but uh uh I think that {disfmarker} This often happens , you do fairly complicated things , and then you stand back from them and you realize that you haven't done something simple . So uh , if you generated something like that just for the energy and see , and then , a a a as {disfmarker} as Liz says , when they g have uh uh smaller um , more coherent groups to look at , that would be another interesting thing later .
PhD E: Uh - huh .
Professor C: And then that should give us some indication {disfmarker} between those , should give us some indication of whether there 's anything to be achieved f from energy at all .
PhD E: Uh - huh .
Professor C: And then you can move on to the uh {pause} uh more {nonvocalsound} pitch related stuff .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think this is a good idea .
Professor C: OK .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Not consider the log energy .
Professor C: Yeah . But then the {disfmarker} Have you started looking at the pitch related {pause} stuff at all , or {disfmarker} ? Pitch {pause} related ?
PhD E: The {disfmarker} ?
Professor C: Harmonicity and so on ?
PhD E: I {disfmarker} I 'm preparing the {disfmarker} the program but I don't {disfmarker} I don't begin because eh {vocalsound} I saw your email
Professor C: Preparing to {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD E: and {pause} I agree with you it 's better to {disfmarker} I suppose it 's better to {disfmarker} to consider the {disfmarker} the energy this kind of parameter {vocalsound} bef
Professor C: Yeah . Oh , that 's not what I meant . No , no . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Well , we certainly should see this but I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that the harm I certainly wasn't saying this was better than the harmonicity and pitch related things I was just saying
PhD E: I {disfmarker} I go on with the {disfmarker} with the pitch ,
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD E: aha ! {pause} OK .
Professor C: Yeah , I was just saying {disfmarker}
PhD E: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I understood uh that eh {pause} I {disfmarker} I had to finish {pause} by the moment with the {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} and concentrate my {disfmarker} my energy in that problem .
Professor C: OK . OK . {vocalsound} OK . But I think , like , all these derivatives and second derivatives and all these other very fancy things , I think I would just sort of look at the energy {pause} and then get into the harmonicity as {disfmarker} as a suggestion .
PhD E: OK . I go on with the pitch .
Professor C: Uh OK . So maybe uh since w we 're trying to uh compress the meeting , um , I know Adam had some form stuff he wanted to talk about and did you have some ?
Postdoc B: I wanted to ask just s something on the end of this top topic . So , when I presented my results about the uh distribution of overlaps and the speakers and the profiles of the speakers , at the bottom of that I did have a proposal ,
PhD E: Uh - huh .
Postdoc B: and I had plan to go through with it , of {disfmarker} of co coding the types of overlaps that people were involved in s just with reference to speaker style so , you know , with reference {disfmarker}
PhD D: Oh .
Postdoc B: and you know I said that on my {disfmarker} in my summary ,
PhD D: That 'd be great .
Postdoc B: that {pause} you know so it 's like people may have different amounts of being overlapped with or overlapping
PhD D: Yeah , I remem Right .
Postdoc B: but that in itself is not informative without knowing what types of overlaps they 're involved in so I was planning to do a taxonomy of types overlaps with reference to that .
PhD D: That would be great .
Postdoc B: So , but it you know it 's like it sounds like you also have uh something in that direction .
PhD D: That would be really great .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: Hmm .
Postdoc B: Is {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker}
PhD D: We have nothing {disfmarker} You know , basically , we got {pause} his environment set up . He 's {disfmarker} he 's a double - E {comment} you know . So . It 's mostly that , {pause} if we had to {pause} label it ourselves , we {disfmarker} we would or we 'd have to , to get started , but if {disfmarker} {pause} It {disfmarker} it would be much better if you can do it . You 'd be much better {comment} at doing it also because {vocalsound} you know , I {disfmarker} I 'm not {disfmarker} I don't have a good feel for how they should be sorted out ,
Postdoc B: Interesting .
PhD D: and I really didn't wanna go into that if I didn't have to . So if {disfmarker} If you 're w willing to do that or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker}
Grad A: It would be interesting , though , to talk , maybe not at the meeting , but at some other time about what are the classes .
Postdoc B: Well maybe we can OK .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: I think that 's a research {pause} effort in and of itself ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: Yeah , it would be interesting .
PhD D: because you can read the literature , but I don't know how it 'll {pause} turn out
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: and , You know , it 's always an interesting question .
Postdoc B: It seems like we also s with reference to a purpose , too , that we we 'd want to have them coded .
PhD E: I would think it 's interesting , yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: That 'd be great .
Grad A: Yep .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: OK .
PhD D: That 'd be really great .
Postdoc B: I can do that .
PhD D: And we 'd still have some {pause} funding for this project ,
PhD E: uh uh
PhD D: like probably , if we had to hire some {disfmarker} like an undergrad , because uh Don is being covered half time on something else {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: I mean , he {disfmarker} we 're not paying him {pause} the full RA - ship for {disfmarker} all the time . So . {vocalsound} um If we got it to where we wanted {disfmarker} we needed someone to do that {disfmarker} I don't think there 's really enough data where {disfmarker} where {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm . Yeah , I see this as a prototype , to use the only the {disfmarker} the already transcribed meeting as just a prototype .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD E: I {disfmarker} I think a a another parameter we c we {disfmarker} we can consider is eh the {pause} duration .
PhD D: But {disfmarker}
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Another e e m besides eh the {disfmarker} the class of overlap , the duration . Because is possible {vocalsound} eh some s s um eh some classes eh has eh {pause} a type of a duration , eh , {pause} a duration very short uh when we have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we have overlapping with speech .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Yeah , definitely .
Postdoc B: Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} It may be correlated . Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Is possible to have . And it 's interesting , {pause} I think , {pause} to consider the {disfmarker} the window of normalization , normalization window . Eh {pause} because eh if we have a type of , {pause} a kind of eh overlap , eh backchannel overlap , with a short duration , is possible {pause} eh to normali i i that if we normalize eh with eh {pause} eh consider only the {disfmarker} the eh window eh by the left eh ri eh {pause} side on the right side overlapping with a {disfmarker} a very {pause} eh oh a small window eh the {disfmarker} if the fit of normalization is eh mmm bigger eh in that overlapping zone eh very short
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Yeah , that 's true . The window shouldn't be larger than the backchannel .
PhD E: I {disfmarker} I me I {disfmarker} I understand . I mean that you have eh you have a backchannel , eh , eh {disfmarker} you have a overlapping zone very short
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD E: and you consider eh n eh all the channel to normalize this very short eh {disfmarker}
Professor C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD E: for example " mmm mm - hmm hmm " eh And the energy is not eh height eh I think if you consider all the channel to normalize and the channel is {pause} mmm bigger {pause} eh eh eh compared with the {disfmarker} with the overlapping eh duration ,
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: eh the effect is mmm stronger eh {pause} that I {disfmarker} I mean the {disfmarker} the e effect of the normalization eh with the mean and the {disfmarker} and the variance eh is different that if you consider {pause} only a {pause} window compared eh with the n the duration of overlapping .
Professor C: Mm - hmm . You {disfmarker} you want it around the overlapping part .
PhD E: Not {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor C: You want it to include something that 's not in overlapping
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: but {disfmarker} but uh
PhD E: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I don't know .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD E: Is {disfmarker} s If {disfmarker}
PhD D: Well it 's a sliding window , right ? So if you take the {disfmarker} the measure in the center of the overlapped {pause} piece , you know , there 'd better be some something .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: But if your window is really huge then yeah you 're right you won't even {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah , This is the {disfmarker} This is the {disfmarker} the idea , {vocalsound} to consider only the {disfmarker} the small window near {disfmarker} near {disfmarker} near the {disfmarker} the overlapping zone .
PhD D: The portion of the {disfmarker} {comment} of the backchannel won't {disfmarker} won't effect anything . But you {disfmarker} Yeah . So . You know , you shouldn't be more than like {disfmarker} {pause} You should definitely not be three times as big as your {disfmarker} as your {pause} backchannel .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Then you 're gonna w have a wash . And hopefully it 's more like on the order of {disfmarker}
Professor C: I 'm not sure that 's {pause} necessarily true .
PhD E: Yeah ?
Postdoc B: It is an empirical question , it seems like .
Professor C: Because {disfmarker} because it {disfmarker} because um again if you 're just compensating for the gain ,
PhD D: Yea
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Yeah .
Professor C: you know , the fact that this {disfmarker} this gain thing was crude , and the gain wh if someone is speaking relatively at consistent level , just to {disfmarker} to give a {disfmarker} an extreme example , all you 're doing is compensating for that . And then you still s And then if you look at the frame with respect to that , it still should {disfmarker} should uh change
PhD D: Yeah , it depends how different your normalization is , as you slide your window across .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: I mean . That 's something we don't know .
Postdoc B: It 's possible to try it both ways ,
Grad A: Well , I mean we 're also talking about a couple of different things .
Postdoc B: isn't it ? in this small
Grad A: I mean , one is your analysis window and then the other is any sort of normalization that you 're doing .
PhD D: Yeah I was talking about the n normalization window .
Grad A: And the {disfmarker} And they could be quite different .
Professor C: Right .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: This was sort of where {disfmarker} where we were last week .
Grad A: Yep .
PhD D: Yeah . That 's true . Yeah .
Professor C: But , anyway We {disfmarker} we 'll have to look at some core things .
Postdoc B: OK .
PhD D: Um . But that 'd be great if {disfmarker} if you 're marking those
PhD E: OK .
Postdoc B: Great .
PhD D: and {disfmarker} um .
Postdoc B: OK .
PhD D: But it is definitely true that we need to have the time marks ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: and I was assuming that will be inherited because , if you have the words and they 're roughly aligned in time via forced alignment or whatever we end up using , then you know , this {pause} student and I would be looking at the time marks
Postdoc B: Yep , I agree . Mm - hmm . Coming off of the other {disfmarker}
PhD D: and classifying all the frames inside those as whatever labels Jane gave
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Good . So , it wouldn't be {pause} I wasn't planning to label the time marks .
PhD D:
PhD E: I can give you my transcription file ,
Postdoc B: I was thinking that that would come from the engineering side ,
PhD D: I don't think you need to .
PhD E: no ?
Postdoc B: yeah .
PhD D: Yeah . That should be linked to the words which are linked to time somehow ,
Postdoc B: There you go .
Grad A: Well we 're not any time soon going to get a forced alignment .
PhD D: right ? Not now .
Grad A: So .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: Um If it 's not hand - marked then we 're not going to get the times .
PhD D: Well , it 's something that w Well , we {disfmarker} we wouldn't be able to do any work without a forced alignment anyway ,
PhD E: Yes
PhD D: so somehow if {disfmarker} once he gets going we 're gonna hafta come up with one
Professor C: Yes .
PhD D: and Yeah .
Grad A: I mean w I guess we could do a very bad one with Broadcast News .
Postdoc B: Good . Good .
PhD D: So whatever you would label would be attached to the words , I think .
Postdoc B: Great ! Good , good . Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: Well again for the close {pause} mike stuff , we could come up {disfmarker} take a s take the Switchboard system or something ,
Grad A: That might be good enough . Yeah .
Professor C: and {disfmarker} Um
Grad A: It 'd be worth a try . It would be interesting to see what we get .
Professor C: Just , you know , low - pass filter the speech and {disfmarker}
PhD D: Cuz there 's {disfmarker} there 's a lot of work you can't do without that , I mean , how {disfmarker} how would you {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: You 'd have to go in and measure every start and stop point next to a word
Grad A: Yep .
Postdoc B: It would be very inefficient .
PhD D: is y if you 're interested in anything to do with words .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: So . Anyway {pause} So that 'd be great .
Postdoc B: Good . OK .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: There 's something we should talk about later but maybe not just now . But , uh , should talk about our options as far as the uh uh {pause} transcription
Grad A: Yep , if IBM doesn't {disfmarker}
Professor C: But . Well , w But we 'll do that later .
Postdoc B: OK . Good .
PhD D: Do we hafta {pause} turn {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: Yeah . Let 's do that later .
PhD D: Are we supposed to keep recording here ?
Grad A: Yeah {vocalsound} Right .
Postdoc B: Yeah .
Professor C: We 'll talk about it later .
Postdoc B: Yeah .
Professor C: So {vocalsound} uh Uh " forms " .
Grad A: Forms Next iteration of forms .
Professor C: You had something on forms .
Grad A: Oops .
Postdoc B: Oh ! Oh good , OK .
Professor C: Um . Oh .
Postdoc B: How {disfmarker} So it 's two pages per person ?
Grad A: Nope . One 's a digit form , one 's a speaker form .
Postdoc B: Oh !
Grad A: So one is a one time only {pause} speaker form and the other is the digits .
Postdoc B: Oh , I see .
PhD E: Oh it 's the same . Oh no no . Is {disfmarker} is new Is OK .
Grad A: So don't fill these out .
Postdoc B: Alright .
Grad A: This is just the suggestion for uh what the new forms would look like . So , they incorporate the changes {pause} that we talked about .
Postdoc B: Date and time . Uh why did you switch the order of the Date and Time fields ? This is rather a low - level , but
Grad A: On which one ?
Postdoc B: On {disfmarker} on the new one , Time comes first and then Date , but I thought {disfmarker}
Grad A: Oh you mean on the digit form ?
Postdoc B: This is {disfmarker} this is rather a low level question , but {disfmarker} but it used {disfmarker} used to be Date came first .
Grad A: Uh , because the user fills out the first three fields and I fill out the rest .
Postdoc B: Oh I see .
Grad A: So it was intentional .
Postdoc B: Well , how would the {disfmarker} How would the user know the time if they didn't know the date ?
Grad A: It 's an interesting observation , but it was intentional . Because the date is when you actually read the digits and the time and , excuse me , the time is when you actually read the digits , but I 'm filling out the date beforehand . If you look at the form in front of you ? that you 're going to fill out when you read the digits ? you 'll see I 've already filled in the date but not the time .
Postdoc B: Yeah . I always assumed {disfmarker} So the time is supposed to be pretty exact , because I 've just been taking beginning time {disfmarker} time of the meeting .
PhD D: Yeah , me too .
Grad A: Yeah , I 've noticed that in the forms .
PhD E: Yeah , I {disfmarker} yeah .
Grad A: The {disfmarker} the reason I put the time in , is so that the person who 's extracting the digits , meaning me , will know where to look in the meeting , to try to find the digits .
PhD D:
PhD E: Me too . Oh !
Postdoc B: Oh dear . We 've been {disfmarker} we 've been messing up your forms .
PhD E: But {disfmarker} I am put {disfmarker} I am putting the beginning of the meeting .
Grad A: I know .
PhD D: So you should call it , like , " digits start time " . Or .
Grad A: And I haven't said anything . Yep .
PhD E: in {disfmarker} on there .
Professor C: Why {disfmarker} What {disfmarker} what were you putting in ?
Postdoc B: Oh , well , I was saying if we started the meeting at two thirty ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: I 'd put two thirty , and I guess d e everyone was putting two thirty ,
Professor C: Oh .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: No , it 's about fifty fifty .
Postdoc B: and I didn't realize there was " uh oh I 'm about to read this and I should " {disfmarker}
Grad A: Actually it 's about one third each . About one third of them are blank , about one third of them are when the digits are read , and about one third of them are when the {pause} meeting starts . So .
PhD E: Oh .
Postdoc B: This would be a radical suggestion but {disfmarker}
Grad A: I could put instructions ? Nah .
Postdoc B: Ei - either that or maybe you could maybe write down when people {vocalsound} start reading digits on that particular session .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: But if I 'm not at the meeting , I can't do that .
Postdoc B: I know , OK . That 's a good point .
Professor C: Yeah , he 's been setting stuff up and going away . So .
Postdoc B: I see . Good point good point .
Professor C: For some reason he doesn't want to sit through every meeting that 's {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yep , but that is the reason Name , Email and Time are where they are .
Postdoc B: Oh , OK . Alright .
Professor C: Yeah .
Postdoc B: I rest my {disfmarker}
Grad A: And then the others are later on .
Professor C: Uh - huh .
Postdoc B: OK . w
PhD E: And the Seat is this number ?
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc B: Seat and Session .
PhD D: " For official use only " That 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well , he 's very professional .
PhD E: " use only "
Postdoc B: Actually you could {disfmarker} Well that does raise another question , which is why is the " Professional use only " line not higher ? Why doesn't it come in at the point of Date and Seat ? Oh . Because we 're filling in other things .
Grad A: What ?
Professor C: What ?
Postdoc B: Well , because {disfmarker} If y your {disfmarker} your professional use , you 're gonna already have the date , and the s
Grad A: What {disfmarker} which form are you talking about ?
Postdoc B: Well I 'm comparing the new one with the old one . This is the digit form .
PhD E: Oh .
Grad A: Oh you 're talking about the digit form .
Professor C: Digit . Digit form .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: The digit form doesn't {disfmarker} The digit {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: Oh ! I wasn't supposed to {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: No , that 's alright .
Postdoc B: Sorry . Sorry .
Grad A: The digit form doesn't have a " for official use only " line . It just has a line , {pause} which is what you 're supposed to read .
Postdoc B: That {disfmarker} uh OK .
Grad A: So on the digits form , everything above the line is a fill - in form
Postdoc B: Sorry about that . Yeah .
Grad A: and everything below the line is digits that the user reads .
Postdoc B: Yeah . OK . Alright s but I didn't mean to derail our discussion here , so you really wanted to start with this other form .
Grad A: No , either way is fine I just {disfmarker} You just started talking about something , and I didn't know which form you were referring to .
Postdoc B: Alright yeah , I was comparing {disfmarker} so th this is {disfmarker} So I was looking at the change first . So it 's like we started with this and now we 've got a new version of it wi {pause} with reference to this . So the digit form , we had one already . Now the f the fields are slightly different .
Professor C: So the main thing that the person fills out um {pause} is the name and email and time ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: Right .
Professor C: You do the rest ?
PhD E: Ah !
Grad A: Yep . Just as uh {disfmarker} as I have for all the others .
Postdoc B: What {disfmarker} And there 's an addition of the native language , which is a bit redundant .
Professor C: Right .
Postdoc B: This one has Native Language and this one does too .
Grad A: That 's because the one , the digit form that has native language is the old form not the new form .
Postdoc B: Oh ! Thank you . {pause} Thank you , thank you . There we go .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Oh , yeah . I 'll catch up here . OK , I see .
Professor C: " South Midland , North Midland "
Postdoc B: That 's the old and that 's the new .
Grad A: Yeah this was the problem with these categories , I {disfmarker} I picked those categories from TIMIT . I don't know what those are .
PhD D: Actually , the only way I know is from working with the database and having to figure it out .
PhD E: What {disfmarker}
Grad A: With TIMIT , yeah ?
PhD E: uh - huh .
Grad A: So , I was gonna ask
PhD E: What i
Professor C: So is South Midland like Kansas ?
Grad A: wh w I mean .
Professor C: and North Midland like {disfmarker} like uh Illinois , or {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: Well yeah . Nor - um {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: So {disfmarker} so what accent are we speaking ? Western ?
Professor C: By definition ?
PhD E: And for simple for {disfmarker} for me ?
Professor C: Well ,
PhD D: Probably Western , yeah .
PhD E: Is mean my native language Spanish {disfmarker} Spanish ? eh The original is the center of Spain and the {vocalsound} beca
Grad A: Yeah , I mean you could call it whatever you want . For the foreign language we couldn't classify every single one . So I just left it blank and you can put whatever you want .
PhD E: Because is different , the Span - uh {pause} the Spanish language from the {disfmarker} the north of Spain , of the south , of the west and the {disfmarker}
Grad A: Sure .
PhD E: But .
Grad A: So I 'm not sure what to do about the Region field for English variety . You know , when I wrote {disfmarker} I was writing those down , I was thinking , " You know , these are great {pause} if you 're a linguist " .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: But I don't know how to {disfmarker} I don't know how to {disfmarker} I don't know how to categorize them .
Postdoc B: Yeah .
PhD D: Actually even if you {vocalsound} {pause} t
Postdoc B: Yeah .
Professor C: If you 're {disfmarker} if e {vocalsound} if y
PhD D: This wasn't developed by {disfmarker} th these regions weren't {disfmarker}
Professor C: if you 're a TI or MIT {vocalsound} from {vocalsound} nineteen eighty - five .
Grad A: Yeah So I guess my only question was if {disfmarker} if you were a South Midland speaking region , person ? Would you know it ?
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Is that what you would call yourself ?
PhD D: I don't know .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: You know , I think if you 're talking {disfmarker} if you 're thinking in terms of places , {pause} as opposed to {pause} names different peop names people have given to {pause} different ways of talking , {pause} I would think North Midwest , and South Midwest would be more common than saying Midland , right , I mean , I {disfmarker} I went to s
PhD D: Yeah . Now {pause} the usage {disfmarker} Maybe we can give them a li {pause} like a little map ? with the regions and they just {disfmarker} No , I 'm serious .
Postdoc B: No , that 's not bad . Yeah .
PhD D: Because it takes less time , and it 's sort of cute
PhD E: i at this {disfmarker} {vocalsound} in that side {disfmarker} in that side of the {disfmarker} the paper .
PhD D: there 's no figure .
Professor C: Well .
PhD D: Well just a little {disfmarker} You know , it doesn't have all the detail , but you sort of {disfmarker}
Professor C: But what if you moved five times and {disfmarker} and uh
Postdoc B: Well , I was thinking you could have ma multiple ones and then the amount of time {disfmarker}
PhD D: No , but you 're categorized . That 's the same {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: so , roughly . So . You could say , {pause} you know " ten years {pause} on the east coast , five years on the west coast " or something or other .
Grad A: Well , We {disfmarker} I think we don't want to get that level of detail at this form . I think that 's alright if we want to follow up . But .
Professor C: I guess we don't really know .
PhD D: I mean I {disfmarker} As I said , I don't think there 's a huge {pause} benefit to this region thing . It {disfmarker} it gets {disfmarker} The problem is that for some things it 's really clear and usually listening to {comment} it you can tell right away if it 's a New York or Boston accent , but New York and Boston are two {disfmarker} well , I guess they have the NYC , but New England has a bunch of very different dialects and {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: and {pause} so does um S So do other places .
Grad A: Yeah , so I picked these regions cuz we had talked about TIMIT , and those are right from TIMIT .
PhD D: Right . And so these would be {pause} satisfying like a speech {pause} research {pause} community if we released the database ,
Grad A: So .
PhD D: but as to whether subjects know where they 're from , I 'm not sure because um I know that they had to fill this out for Switchboard . This is i almost exactly the same as Switchboard regions
Postdoc B: Oh . OK .
PhD D: or very close . Yeah . Um And I don't know how they filled that out . But th if Midland {disfmarker} Yeah , Midland is the one that 's difficult I guess .
Postdoc B: I think a lot of people {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD D: Also Northwest you 've got Oreg - Washington and Oregon now which uh y people don't know if it 's western or northern .
Grad A: Yeah , I certainly don't . I mean , I was saying I don't even know what I speak .
PhD D: It 's like Northwest
Grad A: Am I speaking {disfmarker} Am I speaking Western ?
Professor C: Oh , what is Northern ? Well and what {disfmarker} and what 's Northern ?
PhD D: I think originally it was North {disfmarker} Northwest
Grad A: Northwest ?
PhD D: But {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: Yeah , so this is a real problem . I don't know what to do about it .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc B: I wouldn't know how to characterize mine either . And {disfmarker} and so I would think {disfmarker} I would say , I 've {disfmarker} I 've got a mix of California and Ohio .
Grad A: I c I think at the first level , for example , we speak the same .
PhD D: I don't know .
Grad A: our {disfmarker} our dialects Or {pause} whatever you {disfmarker} region are the same .
Postdoc B: Uh - huh .
Grad A: But I don't know what it is . So .
PhD D: Well , you have a like techno - speak accent I think .
Grad A: a techno - speak accent ?
PhD D: Yeah , you know ?
PhD E: A techno
Grad A: A {disfmarker} a geek region ?
PhD D: Well it 's {disfmarker} I mean I {disfmarker} you can sort of identify
Postdoc B: Geek region .
PhD D: it f It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not that that 's {disfmarker}
PhD E: Is different . Is different .
PhD D: but {disfmarker} but maybe that {disfmarker} maybe we could leave this and see what people {disfmarker} See what people choose and then um let them just fill in if they don't {disfmarker} I mean I don't know what else we can do , cuz {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That 's North Midland .
Postdoc B: I 'm wondering about a question like , " Where are you from mostly ? "
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: But I {disfmarker} I 'm s I 'm {disfmarker} now that you mentioned it though , I am {disfmarker} really am confused by " Northern " .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: I agree . I agree .
Professor C: I really am .
Postdoc B: I agree .
Professor C: I mean , if {disfmarker} if you 're {pause} in New England , that 's North .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: If you 're {disfmarker} i if you 're
Postdoc B: Scandinavian , the Minnesota area 's north .
Professor C: Uh yeah . That 's {disfmarker} But that 's also North Midland ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Oh , @ @ . {disfmarker} OK .
Professor C: right ?
Postdoc B:
Professor C: And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and Oregon and {disfmarker} and Oregon and Washington are {disfmarker} are Western , but they 're also Northern .
PhD D: Yeah . Of course , that 's very different from , like , Michigan , or {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mmm .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: uh , Idaho ?
PhD D: Well there are hardly any subjects from Idaho .
Professor C: Montana ?
Grad A: No problem .
Postdoc B: Just rule them out .
PhD D: There 's only a few people in Idaho .
Grad A: There are hardly any subjects from " beep "
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: Sorry .
Professor C: Maybe {disfmarker} Maybe we {disfmarker} Maybe we should put a little map and say " put an X on where you 're from " ,
PhD D: No , that 's {disfmarker}
PhD E: And {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} in those {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah really .
PhD D: We could ask where they 're from .
PhD E: And if you put {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: It 'd be pretty simple , yeah .
PhD D: Yeah . But - We went back to that .
PhD E: Yeah . If you put eh the state ?
Grad A: Well well we sort of {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: Where are you from mostly ?
PhD D: We {disfmarker} we went {disfmarker} we went around this and then {pause} a lot of people ended up saying that it {disfmarker}
PhD E: Uh - huh . Mm - hmm .
PhD D: You know .
Grad A: Well , I like the idea of asking " what variety of English do you speak " as opposed to where you 're from Because th if we start asking where we 're from , again you have to start saying , " well , is that the language you speak or is that just where you 're from ? "
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Hmm ?
PhD D: Right . Right .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor C: Let 's {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .
PhD D: I mean it gives us good information on where they 're from , but that doesn't {comment} tell us anything {disfmarker}
Grad A: And {disfmarker}
Professor C: We could always ask them if they 're from {disfmarker}
PhD D: well , enough about their {disfmarker}
Grad A: I mean . So {disfmarker} so I would say Germany
PhD D: like {disfmarker}
Grad A: You know am I speaking with German accent
Postdoc B: Oh .
Grad A: I don't think so .
Postdoc B: Well , see , I 'm thinking " Where are you from mostly "
PhD D: Right .
Grad A: Oh , OK yeah .
Postdoc B: because , you know , then you have some {disfmarker} some kind of subjective amount of time factored into it .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad A: Yep . Yeah , I guess I could try to put {disfmarker} squeeze in a little map .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: I mean there 's not a lot of r of room
Professor C: I 'd say , uh , " Boston , New York City , the South and Regular " .
Postdoc B: Well {disfmarker}
PhD D: Oh , I don't know .
Grad A: I think of those , Northern is the only one that I don't even know what they 're meaning .
Postdoc B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD E: And {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um {pause} And usually here {disfmarker} people here know what is their kind of mmm lang English language ?
Professor C: That 's a joke . That 's {disfmarker}
PhD D: So let 's make it up . S I mean , who cares . Right ? We can make up our own {disfmarker} So we can say " Northwest " , " Rest of West " or something . You know . " West " and I mean .
Grad A: Ye I don't think the Northwest people speak any differently than I do .
PhD D: It doesn't even {disfmarker} Yeah , exactly . That 's not really a region .
Postdoc B: I {disfmarker}
Professor C: " Do you come from the Louisiana Purchase ? "
PhD D: So we could take out " North " {disfmarker} " Northern " .
Grad A: That {disfmarker} that 's exactly what we 're arguing about .
PhD E: eh here Is easy for people to know ?
PhD D: That 's {disfmarker} Yeah , w It 's {disfmarker} In {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} it 's harder in America anywhere else , basically .
Grad A: We don't know .
PhD E: because you have {disfmarker}
Grad A: I mean some of them are very obvious . If you {disfmarker} if you talk to someone speaking with Southern drawl , you know .
PhD E: N m Yeah .
Postdoc B: Yeah , or Boston .
Grad A: Or Boston , yeah .
Postdoc B: I can't do it , but {disfmarker}
PhD E: Or Boston ?
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: And those people , if you ask them to self - identify their accent they know .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Yeah , they do .
PhD D: They know very well .
Postdoc B: Yeah I agree I agree . I agree .
PhD D: They know they don't speak the same as the
Grad A: But is Boston New England ?
Postdoc B: And they 're proud of it .
PhD D: day o
Postdoc B: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah , exactly .
Postdoc B: It 's identity thing .
PhD D: And they 're glad to tell you .
PhD E: style .
PhD D: Well . Depends who you ask , I suppose .
Grad A: W {vocalsound} I guess that 's the problem with these categories .
PhD E:
PhD D: But that 's why they have New York City but {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: Well , we ca Well , why can't we just say characterize {disfmarker} something like char characterize your accent
Professor C: Well , Boston 's @ @ , too .
PhD D: Or {disfmarker} " Characterize your accent {pause} if you can . "
Postdoc B: and {disfmarker} and so I would say , " I don't know " .
PhD D: Yeah . Right , which probably means you have a very {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: But someone from Boston with a really strong coloration would know . And so would an R - less Maine {disfmarker} or something ,
PhD D: And that 's actually good .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: yeah .
PhD D: I was {disfmarker} I was thinking of something along that line
Professor C: How
Postdoc B: Good .
PhD D: because {pause} if you don't know , then , you know , ruling out the fact that you 're totally {pause} inept or something ,
Postdoc B: Hmm .
PhD D: if somebody doesn't know , it probably means their accent isn't very strong compared to the sort of midwest standard .
Professor C: Well , {vocalsound} I mean , it wasn't that long ago that we had somebody here who was from Texas who was absolutely sure that he didn't have any accent left .
Postdoc B: Hmm ?
Professor C: And {disfmarker} and had {disfmarker} he had a pretty {vocalsound} noticeable drawl .
Grad A: OK , so . I propose , {pause} take out Northern add , don't know .
Postdoc B: Oh . {pause} Yeah . I {disfmarker} I would say more {disfmarker} more sweepingly , " how would you characterize your accent ? "
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: So you want to change the instructions also not just say region ?
PhD D: W
Postdoc B: Well , I think this discussion has made me think that 's s something to consider .
Grad A: I don't know if I {disfmarker} if I read this form , I think they 're going to ask {comment} it {disfmarker} they 're going to answer the same way if you say , " What 's variety of English do you speak ? Region . " as if you say " what variety of region {disfmarker} region {comment} do you speak ? Please characterize your accent ? " They 're going to answer the same way .
Postdoc B: I guess {disfmarker} Well , I was not sure that {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mmm .
Postdoc B: So . I was suggesting not having the options , just having them {disfmarker}
Grad A: Oh , I see .
PhD E: Huh .
Grad A: Well what we talked about with that is {pause} is so that they would understand the granularity .
Postdoc B: Yes , but if , as Liz is suggesting , people who have strong accents know that they do {disfmarker}
Grad A: I mean that 's what I had before , and you told me to list the regions to list them .
Postdoc B: and are {disfmarker} Well , I know .
Professor C: Right .
PhD D: Each {disfmarker} each one has pros and cons
Grad A: So .
Professor C: Right .
Postdoc B: That 's true .
Professor C: Right .
PhD D: I mean we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah last week {disfmarker} last week I was sort of r arguing for having it wide open , but then everybody said " Oh , no , but then it will be hard to interpret because some people will say Cincinnati and some will say Ohio " .
Grad A: I mean I had it wide open last week and {disfmarker} and you said TIMIT .
Professor C: And .
Postdoc B: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: What if we put in both ?
Grad A: That 's what the " Other " is for .
PhD D: And {disfmarker} Would people {disfmarker} No , I mean what if we put in both ways of asking them ? So . One is {pause} Region and the another one is " if you had to characterize yourself {disfmarker} your accent , what would you say ? "
Grad A: Won't they answer the same thing ?
PhD D: Well they might only answer only one of the questions but if
Postdoc B: Yeah that 's fine .
PhD D: You know .
Postdoc B: They might say " Other " for Region because they don't know what category to use
PhD D: Actually {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: but they might have something {disfmarker}
PhD D: Right .
Postdoc B: because it is easier to have it open ended .
PhD D: It just {disfmarker} And we {disfmarker} we might learn from what they say , as to which one 's a better {comment} way to ask it .
Professor C: W This is just a small thing
PhD D: But {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Cuz I really don't know .
Professor C: but um It says " Variety " and then it gives things that e have American as one of the choices . But then it says " Region " , but Region actually just applies to uh , US ,
Grad A: Right .
Professor C: right ?
Grad A: I mean that 's why I put the " Other " in .
Postdoc B: Well , we thought about it .
Professor C: Ah , OK .
Postdoc B: Yeah , OK . We just {disfmarker} We sort of thought , " yes , {disfmarker} " y y I mean {disfmarker}
Professor C: S
Postdoc B: At the last meeting , my recollection was that {pause} we felt people would have uh less {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that there are so many types and varieties of {pause} these other languages and we are not going to have that many subjects from these different language groups
Grad A: Yep .
Postdoc B: and that it 's a huge waste of {disfmarker} of space .
Professor C: OK .
Grad A: So I mean , I {disfmarker} I mean the way I had it last time {pause} was Region was blank ,
Postdoc B: That 's what I thought .
Grad A: it just said Region colon .
Postdoc B: Yeah .
Grad A: And {disfmarker} and I think that that 's the best way to do it ,
Postdoc B: Yeah .
Grad A: because {disfmarker} because of the problems we 're talking about but what we said last week , was no , put in a list , so I put in a list . So should we go back to {disfmarker}
PhD D: Maybe we can make the list a little smaller .
Grad A: Well , certainly dropping " Northern " I think is right , because none of us know what that is .
PhD D: Cuz , I mean {disfmarker} And keeping " Other " , and then {pause} maybe this North Midland , we call it " North Midwest " . South {pause} Midwest , or just {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yes I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think so . Yeah .
PhD D: South Midwest . Does that make sense ?
PhD E: South Midwest ?
PhD D: That would help me {disfmarker}
Professor C: U unless you 're from Midland , Kansas .
PhD D: Yeah . Cuz {disfmarker} Midland {disfmarker}
Professor C: But . Yeah .
PhD D: I don't know where Midland is
Professor C: There 's a {disfmarker} Or Midland {disfmarker} Midland {disfmarker}
Grad A: Is " Midwest " one word ?
Professor C: Is it Midland {disfmarker} Midland {disfmarker} Midland , Texas or Midland , Kansas ? I forget .
PhD D: Y yeah , one w
Professor C: But there 's a town . in {disfmarker} in there .
PhD D: Oh .
Professor C: I forget what it is @ @ .
Postdoc B: I don't think that 's what they mean .
PhD D: But ,
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: yeah . So . Kansas would be {pause} South Midland . Right ?
Professor C: Y yeah .
PhD D: And {disfmarker} and wouldn't {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor C: And Colorado , right across the border , would be {vocalsound} North Midland .
PhD D: So , th I 'm from Kansas , actually .
PhD E: Southern Midland .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad A: And uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: Colora Oh , right . And then , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} dropping North , so it would be Western . It 's just one big shebang , where , of course , you have huge variation in dialects ,
Grad A: But that 's true of New England too .
Professor C: But you do in the others , too . So .
PhD D: but {disfmarker} {comment} but so do you {disfmarker}
Grad A: So . I mean only one {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad A: Well , I shouldn't say that . I have no clue . I was going to say the only one that doesn't have a huge variety is New York City . But I have no idea whether it does or not .
Postdoc B: It does seem {disfmarker} I mean . I {disfmarker} I would think that these categories would be more {disfmarker} w would be easier for an an analyst to put in rather than the subject himself .
Professor C: U
Grad A: I think that {disfmarker} that was what happened with TIMIT , was that it was an analyst .
Postdoc B: OK .
Professor C: Wait a minute . Where does {disfmarker} Where does {disfmarker} {pause} d w Where {disfmarker} Where 's {disfmarker} where does uh {vocalsound} New {disfmarker} New York west of {disfmarker} west of uh New York City and {pause} Pennsylvania {pause} uh and uh
PhD D: Yeah , I don't know how it came from .
Postdoc B: OK .
Grad A: New England
PhD D: So . That 's New England I think .
Professor C: N No , it 's not .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad A: Oh , no .
Postdoc B: I sort of thought they were part of the {disfmarker} one of the Midlands .
Professor C: Oh no . No , no . {pause} No . Pennsylvania is not {disfmarker}
Grad A: " Other " , it goes under " Other " , definitely under " Other " .
PhD D: Well , you know , Pennsylvania has a pretty strong dialect and it 's totally different than {disfmarker}
Professor C: Pennsylvania {disfmarker} Yeah . Pennsylvania is not New England . and uh New Jersey is not New England and Maryland is not New England and none of those are the South .
Grad A: OK . So . Another suggestion . Rather than have circle fill in forms , say " Region , open paren , E G Southern comma Western comma close paren colon . "
Postdoc B: Yeah . OK .
PhD D: OK !
Postdoc B: Fine by me , fine by me .
Professor C: That 's good . I like that .
PhD D: Sure !
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Yeah .
Professor C: We 're all {pause} sufficiently {pause} tired of this that we 're agreeing with you .
PhD D: Let 's just {disfmarker} And we 'll see what we get .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Be easier on the subjects . I think that 's fine . No . I think {disfmarker}
Professor C: So .
Postdoc B: I like that . I like that .
Professor C: You like it ?
Postdoc B: Yeah , I do .
Professor C: OK .
Grad A: Actually , maybe we do one non - English one as well .
Professor C: Good .
Grad A: Southern , Cockney ?
PhD D: Yeah , and {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: Is that a {pause} real accent ?
Postdoc B: Sure , yeah !
Grad A: How do you spell it ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: I think that 's fine .
Professor C: Cockney ?
Grad A: N E
Professor C: CO {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD D: You could say Liverpool .
Professor C: Liverpuddlian .
Postdoc B: Yeah . Alright .
PhD D: Actually , Liverpool doesn't l Yeah . It 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I 'm s I ha
Postdoc B: Well . Well . I mean , pure {disfmarker}
Grad A: OK , we 'll do it that way . Actually , I like that a lot . Because that get 's at both of the things we were trying to do ,
Professor C: OK .
Grad A: the granularity , and the person can just self - assess and we don't have to argue about what these regions are .
Postdoc B: That 's right . And it 's easy on the subjects .
Professor C: OK .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: Yep .
Postdoc B: Now I have one suggestion on the next section .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc B: So you have native language , you have region , and then you have time spent in English speaking country . Now , I wonder if it might be useful to have another open field saying " which one parenthesis S {comment} paren closed parenthesis " . Cuz if they spent {pause} time in {disfmarker} in Britain and America {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yes .
Postdoc B: It doesn't have to be ex all {disfmarker} at all exact , just in the same open field format that you have .
Grad A: Yep , just which one . I think that 's fine .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm . with a {disfmarker} with an S
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc B: " which one sss , {comment} optional S .
Professor C: OK .
PhD E:
Postdoc B: Yeah .
Professor C: We uh {disfmarker} We done ?
Grad A: Yep .
Postdoc B: Yeah , that 's good .
Professor C: OK . um s e Any {disfmarker} any other uh open mike topics or should we go {pause} right to the digits ?
Grad A: Um , did you guys get my email on the multitrans ? That {disfmarker} OK .
Postdoc B: Isn't that wonderful ! Yeah .
Grad A: Yeah . So . So . I {disfmarker} I have a version also which actually displays all the channels .
Postdoc B: Excellent ! Thank you !
PhD D: It 's really great .
Grad A: But it 's hideously slow .
Postdoc B: So you {disfmarker} this is n Dan 's patches , Dan Ellis 's patches .
Grad A: The {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} the ones I applied , that you can actually do are Dan 's , because it doesn't slow it down .
PhD D: M
Postdoc B: Fantastic !
Grad A: Just uses a lot of memory .
PhD D: So when you say " slow " , does that mean to {disfmarker}
Grad A: No , the {disfmarker} the one that 's installed is fine . It 's not slow at all . I wrote another version . Which , instead of having the one pane with the one view , It has multiple panes {pause} with the views .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: But the problem with it is the drawing of those waveforms is so slow that every time you do anything it just crawls .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: It 's really bad .
PhD D: It 's {disfmarker} So , it {disfmarker} it 's the redrawing of the w
Postdoc B: That 's a consideration .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: oh uh - huh , w as you move .
Grad A: As you play , as you move , as you scroll . Just about anything , and it {disfmarker} it was so slow it was not usable . So that 's why I didn't install it and didn't pursue it .
Postdoc B: And this 'll be a {disfmarker} hav having the multiwave will be a big help cuz {disfmarker} in terms of like disentangling overlaps and things , that 'll be a big help .
PhD D: Oh yeah .
Grad A: So . I think that the one Dan has is usable enough .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad A: It doesn't display the others . It displays just the mixed signal .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: But you can listen to any of them .
Postdoc B: That 's excellent . He also has version control which is another nice
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: e so you {disfmarker} e the patches that you {disfmarker}
Grad A: No , he suggested that , but he didn't {disfmarker} {pause} It 's not installed .
Postdoc B: Oh , I thought it was in one of those patches .
Grad A: No . No .
Postdoc B: Oh OK . Well . Alright .
PhD D: So is there any hope for actually displaying the wave form ?
Grad A: Um , not if we 're going to use Tcl - TK At least not if we 're going to use Snack .
PhD D: OK .
Grad A: I mean you would have to do something ourselves .
Postdoc B: Well , or use the one that crawls .
PhD D: OK . Well , I 'm {disfmarker} I probably would be trying to use the {disfmarker} {comment} whatever 's there . And it 's useful to have the {disfmarker}
Grad A: Why don't we {disfmarker} we see how Dan 's works and if it {disfmarker} If we really need the display {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah . I mean . I wonder {disfmarker} I 'm just wondering if we can display things other than the wave form . So . Suppose we have a feature {disfmarker} a feature stream . And it 's just , you know , a {disfmarker} a uni - dimensional feature , varying in time .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: And we want to plot that , instead of the whole wave form .
Grad A: I mean .
PhD D: That might be faster .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: Right ?
Grad A: We {disfmarker} we could do that but that would mean changing the code .
PhD D: So .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: I mean this isn't a program we wrote .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad A: This is a program that we got from someone else , and we 've done patches on .
PhD D: OK .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: OK . Well , I 'll talk to you about it and we can see
Grad A: So .
Professor C: Cou - i e I mean , y
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: Yeah .
PhD D: but it 's definitely {pause} great to have the other one .
Professor C: If there was some {disfmarker} Is there some way to {pause} have someone write patches in something faster and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} link it in , or something ?
PhD D: That 's {disfmarker}
Grad A: Not easily .
Professor C: Or is that {disfmarker}
Grad A: I mean y yes we could do that . You could {disfmarker} you can write widgets in C . And try to do it that way but I just don't think {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad A: Let 's try it with Dan 's and if that isn't enough , we can do it otherwise .
PhD D: Right .
Grad A: I think it is , cuz when I was playing with it , the mixed signal has it all in there . And so it 's really {disfmarker} It 's not too bad to find places in the {disfmarker} in the stream where things are happening .
PhD D: OK .
Grad A: So I {disfmarker} I don't think it 'll be bad .
Postdoc B: And it 's also {disfmarker} also the case that {disfmarker} that uh this multi - wave thing {pause} is proposed to the {disfmarker}
PhD E: Hmm ?
Postdoc B: So . Dan proposed it to the Transcriber central people , and it 's likely that uh {disfmarker} So . And {disfmarker} and they responded favorably looks as though it will be incorporated in the future version .
PhD D: Oh .
Postdoc B: They said that the only reason they hadn't had the multi the parallel uh stream one before was simply that {pause} they hadn't had time to do it . And uh {pause} so it 's likely that this {disfmarker} this may be entered into the ch this central @ @ .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: And if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}
Professor C: They may well have not had much demand for it .
Postdoc B: Well that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's true , too .
Professor C: Yeah .
Postdoc B: This is a {disfmarker} {pause} a useful thing for us .
PhD D: So . You mean they could {disfmarker} they could do it and it would be {pause} fast enough if they do it ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: Depends on how much work they did .
Postdoc B: Oh . No . I just mean {disfmarker} I just mean that it 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that his {disfmarker}
PhD D: Or {disfmarker} ?
PhD E: Oh .
Postdoc B: So . {pause} This one that we now have does have the status of {pause} potentially being incorporated l likely being incorporated into the central code .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . OK .
Postdoc B: Now , tha Now , if we develop further then , y uh , I don't {disfmarker}
Grad A: I think if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if one of us sat down and coded it , so that it could be displayed fast enough I 'm sure they would be quite willing to incorporate it .
Postdoc B: I mean it 's {disfmarker} I think it 's a nice feature to have it {disfmarker} set that way . Mm - hmm .
Grad A: But it 's not a trivial task .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
PhD D: OK .
Postdoc B: I just like the idea of it being something that 's , you know , tied back into the original , so that other people can benefit from it .
Grad A: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Yeah . However . I also understand that you can have {pause} widgets that are very useful for their purpose and that you don't need to always go that w route . Yeah .
PhD E: OK .
Grad A: anyway , shall we do digits ?
Postdoc B: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah . Let 's do digits , uh , and then we 'll turn off the mikes , and then I have one other thing to discuss .
Postdoc B: OK .
Grad A: OK .
PhD D: I actually have to leave . So . Um . I mean {pause} I had to leave at three thirty ,
Postdoc B: Uh - oh .
Grad A: OK .
Professor C: Oh .
PhD D: so I can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well , I can wait {pause} for the digits but I can't stay for the discussion
Grad A: Well , you want to go first ? Or .
PhD D: I c {pause} I have to make a call .
Professor C: OK .
PhD D: So .
Postdoc B: Well , should we {disfmarker} e should we switch off the g
Professor C: Well , we 'll talk to you about it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh
Grad A: Do you wanna go do digits or do you wanna just skip digits ?
PhD D: Um . No , I can do digits if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} But I don't wanna butt in , or something .
Grad A: Then {disfmarker} Alright . You go ahead .
PhD D: But if there 's something on the rest of the {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'll be around just have to make call before quarter of . So .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: So I {disfmarker} Or we can talk about it .
Postdoc B: Ke
Grad A: Why don't you read the digits ?
Professor C: Yeah , why don't you read the digits and then you can {pause} go .
PhD D: OK . {vocalsound} Alright . Oh , this is the new one .
Grad A: Yeah , don't {disfmarker} Don't read the old one .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: Alright . The {disfmarker} And the time is . OK .
Grad A: OK
Postdoc B: Turn it off .
Professor C: OK .
Postdoc B: But wait till he {disfmarker} OK .
Grad A: And
| |
doc_70
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Marketing: It's Play-Doh .
Project Manager: Play-Doh's edible . Did you know that ? It's definitely {disfmarker}
Marketing: Because kids {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: I used to eat it .
User Interface: I've , I've definitely eaten it before . I didn't know was edible . {vocalsound} {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah . It's it's chew proof . {vocalsound}
Marketing: But um , it's it's made edible 'cause , yeah . It's made edible 'cause kids eat it ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: and if it's wasn't edible then {disfmarker} Well , normal babies . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Actually that makes sense , because I remember like , peopl I dunno if my Mom ever did it but I remember other people's Moms making like home-made Play-Doh where you just like make the {gap} colouring and make some sort of sort of dough .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Oh yeah it is , yeah . Oh yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Right .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Everybody everybody ready ?
Industrial Designer: Yep .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , let's have your um {disfmarker} let's get {gap} have the uh presentation ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: We've got some {gap} .
Industrial Designer: We've got a cool prototype .
User Interface: Yeah , it's pretty exciting . So , everything uh that we wanted we wanted it to be ergonomic and to be made out of rubber , very simple and easy to use ,
Industrial Designer: Double curved .
Project Manager: Nice .
User Interface: yeah , double curved ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: um but also something that was gonna jump out at people , something that would be different uh , separate it from the other remotes out on the market . So uh I think if you put this in the palm of your hand , you'll see what a nice thing we have going here .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That is cool .
User Interface: So , basically , if you hold it like that , the one on your thumb , yeah , {vocalsound} the thumb button is the power button .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Your index finger is channel up , middle finger is channel down , ring finger is volume up , your pinkie is volume down .
Marketing: What's the big blue thing ?
User Interface: That's the lock button , has a L_ L_ on it
Marketing: Oh cool .
User Interface: and then the M_ is a mute button . And then it also has digit
Project Manager: {gap} what button ? Um . Oh mute .
User Interface: For muting the uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: And mute .
User Interface: Um and then then you can also {disfmarker} there's a numeric keypad on the top so you can key directly to the to the channel if you want .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: So it's really basic functionalities as far as what keys are available , but we think it's very comfortable and very innovative and it looks different .
Project Manager: That certainly does .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So all the , I mean the important keys are right at your f f you know right at uh at a convenient place for you to to access them .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Which is ant anti-R_S_I_ .
User Interface: So you don't you {disfmarker} Yeah . It should be .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: And it's also conformable to the size of your hand . I mean if that's too big , it's a rubber remote , so you can , you know
Project Manager: Yeah . 'S great .
User Interface: change that . So d does that uh what {disfmarker} mesh with what you guys were hoping and for and expecting or does it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh it's so cute .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I have one thing about it , but it's a small thing , but it'd mean we'd have to make a right-handed one and a left-handed one .
Industrial Designer: Oh right , yeah .
User Interface: Ah , that's good thinking , yeah .
Project Manager: But , that's I don't see why that's not possible .
User Interface: Yeah , if we build rocket ships why can't we build left-handed and right-handed uh remotes .
Project Manager: Yeah . {gap} They make left-handed scissors , you know . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , I didn't I didn't think about that , but I'd {disfmarker} yeah , {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah , but then but then you can learn to use your right h like I was just thinking if there's left-handers and right-handers in the family , what , they have two remotes ?
Project Manager: Yes s
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I know I know people who have left-handed and right-handed people in the family and they all use the computer {vocalsound} for the whole {disfmarker} the same computer the fes family and they have a mouse , and everybody is using right-handed mouse .
Project Manager: Mm . Sure . Sure .
Marketing: Yeah , I'm sure they'll be able to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Marketing: I mean it's only pressing buttons , you don't have to do anything , you know , extraordinary . I think everybody can press a button with their left and right hand so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Imagine d are you right handed ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Imagine you're doing it with your left hand , I don't think it's too {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , it's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But we can have both uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Have them in stock .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Make 'em more appealing as well .
Project Manager: But um other than that , I mean uh and that's um , you know , that's just something , I think I think it's great , yeah , great idea .
User Interface: Do you think it says {vocalsound} R_R_ ?
Industrial Designer: {gap} I think it does . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think it's , well , if the R_R_ motto is , we bring fashion to to electronics , I'd say that could be quite fashionable .
User Interface: Fashion to electronics . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . And it's got the b the black and yellow and blue .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Plus red , which is sort of a a fruit and vegetable uh uh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {gap} . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} There you go .
User Interface: So that's that's {vocalsound} our end of things wha uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , very good , yeah .
User Interface: That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's come up with what we've you know , the things that's what we've {disfmarker} what we were looking at doing , hasn't it , {gap} all seems to be there .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well done .
Marketing: And all the playing around is uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um before we move on {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , I'm just {disfmarker} do you wanna plug in ?
Project Manager: I need that cable .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Thank you . Yeah . Um . One thing I do need to do {disfmarker} we need to look at , is the costs .
User Interface: The costs , was that what you said ?
Industrial Designer: Play-Doh is very cheap . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: {gap} um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Play-Doh won't last very long everybody'll go like , oops , it's gone . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: But it's edible .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Chew proof .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well , they'll buy more of them if you eat them , {gap} .
User Interface: That was the main criteria from the last meeting , it had to be chew proof .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . Uh right . {vocalsound} Okay , now I think we'll do this {disfmarker} I could do {disfmarker} you know , I can do this o on my own or I could do it with you ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh ho-ho .
Project Manager: but it's just easy enough to go through it with you , so we're going for the kinetic power .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And the electronics , we decided on it being just a simple , the easiest thing that's inside it . Ooh .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} the case , we've gone for the double curved . Um and it's made out of rubber . {vocalsound} The interface is push-buttons . And button supplements well they're in diff special colours , aren't they ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So {gap} special colours .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: It's better for {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Special form , yeah , they're a special form there in shapes and stuff .
User Interface: Yeah , I mean , {vocalsound} these these ones on the side are curved kind of , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: And special material .
Project Manager: Yep . Yeah . Um . Are they made out of any special material ?
Industrial Designer: Rubber .
Project Manager: No they're not . They're not made out of wood or titanium or rubber or anything , they're just simple {disfmarker}
User Interface: The buttons are rubber .
Marketing: Well they're rubber , aren't they ?
Project Manager: Okay . Right .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So let's see if that comes within budget . And it does . That is gonna cost uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Marketing: We're under budget .
Project Manager: Yeah . That's gonna cost ten ten Euro seventy cents a unit to make . And our target was it had to come in at under twelve fifty .
User Interface: That's cool . Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: So ,
User Interface: And we're actua actually making a better profit than we expected .
Project Manager: this is all very very good . The bosses will be very pleased .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , let's just save this so I can e-mail it to you . Uh .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Save it in {gap} save it in the uh {vocalsound} my documents .
Marketing: It's already saved , I think .
Project Manager: Splendid . Okay . So uh , that's {gap} done with this with this um doodah , so you're {gap} . Gonna do {disfmarker} what you were gonna do ,
Marketing: Thank you . Mm .
Project Manager: your evaluation .
Marketing: Oh , yeah . This is where we all get to {vocalsound} I get to write on the , oops , on the board . Right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh . 'S function {disfmarker}
Project Manager: F_ eight .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: {gap} I love the smell of that Play-Doh .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I cou {gap} . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: have some have some .
Marketing: Okay . So , {vocalsound} evaluation . We're gonna do it all together so we evaluate each criteria . I've got the criterias . And we have to do it on a scale of one to seven , one being true , so it's it's more like it's {disfmarker} fits the criteria , and seven being as in it doesn't fit the criteria . And the criterias are , and I'll draw this up on the board {disfmarker} {vocalsound} so we have a box {disfmarker} {gap} . And this is false , this is just like to keep you informed . So seven's here and one's here and then you've got in the middle . {vocalsound} So the first criteria . Do you all get what we're doing ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay , cool . Okay , first criteria , look and feel . So the does remote look and feel fashionable to what we talked about ? As it {disfmarker} is it colour-wise and is it spongy ?
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: So what mark should we give for that ?
Project Manager: I would give it a seven .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: As in it's not .
Project Manager: Oh sorry , one , d yeah .
User Interface: Oh , sorry , one . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: A one .
Marketing: A one a one . So I'll just write criteria criteria one we get one . Second criteria , new technology . Have we implemented new technology ? As in the new high-tech {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well , the kinetic thing , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . That was our main technological innovation w every everything else was fairly simple , but the fact that we used the kinetic energy was new .
Project Manager: {gap} .
Marketing: So it's {gap} . So we'll give it a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well so the um {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's ergonomic ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but that's not {disfmarker} that's that's a design that's a des that's a design thing , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , but that's not a technological thing , that's another thing , i that's another marketing thing .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . True .
Project Manager: So on the technical side of it it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . I'd say it's about a a twoish ?
Industrial Designer: Two .
User Interface: It's about in the mid in the middle somewhere ,
Marketing: Two .
User Interface: maybe , yeah , I dunno .
Marketing: Three .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Maybe three , yeah .
Marketing: {gap} three . So criteria three is is it easy to use ?
Project Manager: Easy to use .
Marketing: I think it's a one , I think .
Project Manager: I'd say it's I wouldn't {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: not if you're left-handed it's not . I would give it a I would give it a two ,
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Two ,
Project Manager: 'cause i i it i it i it is more geared for right-handed people than left-handed people , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: so it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: But if we make a right-handed and a left-handed then ?
User Interface: If we're gonna have one left-handed and one right-handed then I would give it a one , but otherwise otherwise a two .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Give it a t give it a two .
Marketing: Yeah , okay . {vocalsound} 'Kay , criteria four is costs . {gap}
Project Manager: Cost . It's come in under budget .
Marketing: {vocalsound} 's great .
Project Manager: So that's a definite one .
User Interface: Yeah . That was great .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Amount of buttons .
Marketing: Like the amount of buttons ,
Project Manager: Contains only the necessary buttons .
Marketing: 'cause people like a lot le like {disfmarker} So it's a one ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Um criteria six . R_S_I_ is it good against ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes s yeah .
Marketing: Yes . Very good .
Project Manager: So it's anti-R_S_I_ .
Marketing: It's one . And criteria seven , which is the last one , does it get lost ?
Industrial Designer: It's yellow .
Marketing: Is it easy to get lost ?
Project Manager: I don't think it's gonna get lost easily .
User Interface: {vocalsound} It is very bright , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No ? But it is smallish .
Industrial Designer: Two .
User Interface: It's not the kinda thing that's gonna slip like between a couch cushion or something , you know . Maybe it will . Uh .
Industrial Designer: T
Marketing: Mm . I think i it would , could be , could get lost .
User Interface: You think it could lost {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} two .
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: I mean it {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean it's not fully it's not fully {disfmarker} like you can't say {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No , I mean
Marketing: I mean , it's not a one , definitely .
Project Manager: I mean , you could still flush it down the toilet theoretically , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay . Yeah , anything , I mean . Okay . It's bigger than the average mobile , I guess .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: But , yeah , it can get lost .
Marketing: The mobiles get lost all the time .
User Interface: Yeah . Okay , yeah , two is fine .
Marketing: But then you ring 'em and you find them . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm . Mm .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah . So , that's that . So that's the evaluation , so I'd say {disfmarker} Yay .
Project Manager: Alright it's all all systems go .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We've , we've done well .
Marketing: It's like {vocalsound} {gap} like a number one . Um .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Number one product .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We can't fail .
Marketing: All done , thanks . We fitted all the criterias . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well done , Reissa .
Marketing: So that's that one .
Project Manager: Okay , I I think um I just wanna put in as Project Manager the you know , little bit of praise for everybody here for how they've worked on it ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you know , both individually and as a team . You know you've w everyone's come up with their own individual ideas in their own different departments , um and then come together and worked in , you know , integrally , you know , at the right times , psp , you know , especially you two .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's all , you know , gone very very well
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: and and and be you know , has been good communication going on . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , during our design I mean there was some s some heated heated discussion ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but we we kept {disfmarker} we tried to keep it cool and and
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Did you have to go down to the the corporate squash court and bash a few balls about ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: just just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well .
User Interface: {vocalsound} We just had to we just had to squeeze our product a little bit and {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You know {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fantastic .
Industrial Designer: It is {gap} .
User Interface: Now you guys have been a a great team . Think we're the we're the envy of all the of all the other R_R_ teams , {gap} .
Marketing: {gap} been cool .
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker} So
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I I , you know , and I think we've co we have come we've come up with something new , something that hasn't been done before , we haven't {disfmarker} we're not just rehashing an old design .
Marketing: In four diff in in four meetings .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Funny , all designer meetings could be this quick .
Project Manager: You know , maybe this isn't a simulation , maybe this is actually {disfmarker} so it's like Sony or someone like that they're they're just , yeah , {gap} they get {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah I think they're actually trying to find ideas for a ideal remote . {vocalsound}
Marketing: They're using our ideas .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah , {gap} two years' time this will be on the market .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ex exactly that product
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um thum {disfmarker} we'll go , yeah , we designed that and no-one will believe us .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But um {disfmarker}
User Interface: So at this stage , I mean , is this the last meeting of the project ? We don't uh have another one after it's gone gone to marke market or something ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: No ,
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: I think when this meeting's finished like officially , there b we'll get a uh questionnaire to fill in .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Y Oh really ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Or six , uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Just start summarising now . {vocalsound} You can reply to the same message .
Project Manager: I haven't got message .
Marketing: See summary , there . If you just reply to that one .
User Interface: So there's no way to like predict what our {disfmarker} 'Cause we had a {disfmarker} we originally had a {vocalsound} {disfmarker} As far as our financial uh um goals , we had a specific number for profits that we wanted . It was fifty mil fifty million {disfmarker}
Marketing: Was it was it fifty or five ?
User Interface: I don't remember . But there's not a way to compute that , I mean , since we saved on the on the production cost , do we know how much we're making on profit ?
Project Manager: It gets handed over to another department .
Marketing: Depends how much we sell .
User Interface: Uh .
Project Manager: What our what our project was was to come up with the product , basically .
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: {gap} the for the {disfmarker} and just basically is it it come {disfmarker} can {disfmarker} is it within budget . When it c when it comes to all the other things of how to sell it and , you know , the b the profits and all that that's other departments {disfmarker} it's another team that actually work out the mai the {disfmarker}
User Interface: But we have a vested interest {gap}
Project Manager: oh yeah , the {disfmarker} all the guys in the profit sharing , yeah .
User Interface: prof profit sharing {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um . Yeah , that's it . You know , we've we've we've made i we've made
Marketing: We finished an hour earlier . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we've designed the product , we've ma we've got the prototype , it's within budget , it's {disfmarker} does everything that we wanted it to do . It's new , it's it's um something that uh {vocalsound} that isn't out there already .
User Interface: I think actually {disfmarker} and one advantage of of this is that after the uh , you know , after this fad of fruit and vegetables passes this will still be c a cool remote , you know .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: We're not we're not you know , tying tying our cart to that one horse {gap} . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Well , this is very marketable in that it is it's it's something that's kind of new and looks a bit quirky for people who want that ,
Marketing: Definitely .
Project Manager: it's {disfmarker} that it's um , hang on , I wrote it down here somewhere {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh no I thi I put it in one of my e-mails that I sent off . Um that , you know , it's marketable in the sense that it's {disfmarker} whilst all these other remotes uh actually do give you repetitive strain injury , our one does the complete opposite , you know ,
User Interface: Mm . Mm .
Project Manager: so that's something that's new , which is one of the criteria they asked us to come up with something with something new .
User Interface: Mm . It make watching T_V_ healthy .
Project Manager: Yeah , and if you're not having a good time with the T_V_ , you can f throw it about , you know .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's fine , it's kid proof .
Marketing: Just don't sh don't throw it at any of the ornaments and break them .
User Interface: Uh .
Project Manager: Well , you can break the ornaments , but you won't break that .
Marketing: No {gap} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . So all in all , I think we've done very well .
Industrial Designer: Mm yep .
Project Manager: Well done everybody .
User Interface: Right , you too .
Marketing: Yay .
Project Manager: Um . Drinks are on the company .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Cool .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: In the corporate bar that's next to the corporate swimming pool on the top floor that we're that've all just gained access to .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Glad to hear that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . That's it .
User Interface: That's it .
Project Manager: Well , as far as I t as far as I know . Um .
Marketing: Yep . We haven't got the five minute left thing yet .
Project Manager: No . Anyone wanna play I spy ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I guess it's probably better that we wrap it up than have five minutes of silence . Should we call the day then ?
Project Manager: Yeah , I guess . I mean we're gonna get asked to fill out another questionnaire .
User Interface: Uh , right .
Project Manager: Um . It's probably gonna be the same as one we've done before .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: But I'm not the authority to say that it is .
Marketing: In {gap} project .
Project Manager: Um how does everyone feel about the technology that's been used in this ? The sort of using of the the pens and writing on these special pads and all that ?
Marketing: I love it . {vocalsound} I love it . {vocalsound} I think it's cool .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Being all wired up and a vibrating pen and {disfmarker} it's cool .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Being watched . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Your moment to shine .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Wow .
Project Manager: I thi you know , I'd I'd n yeah , as we said earlier , I've not {disfmarker} never seen that before . {gap} something that t the whiteboard
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: thingy , {vocalsound} that's great . Um , but a p a pen with a camera on it , I don't think it's such a new thing . I mean it's i or in such a new idea . It would be different if it was sort of hand writing recognition stuff , but as it's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: it's literally that'll come up on a computer screen as a picture file rather than actual text .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Right , I think they do want to do hand writing recognition on that , it's just the first step .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah . Mm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Logitech .
User Interface: I guess we should end this , since we're off off topic . So . Shall we {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Meeting adjourned .
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
| |
doc_71
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Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: Hello {vocalsound} . 'Kay .
Project Manager: You all saw the newsflash ?
Industrial Designer: It's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Or you got the same message ?
Marketing: Yeah I I just saw it one minute ago .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah sorry .
Industrial Designer: I don't know .
Marketing: When I uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I didn't see it yet I think .
User Interface: Newsflash ? D did I miss something ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah I received an email so I thought I I can't mail you so I thought I'd just drop it in the folder , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah pretty much .
Industrial Designer: Hey what's wrong with my computer ?
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Is it unlocked ?
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Marketing: Mm . Yeah that's my presentation . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Woah . I uh kind of opened it {gap} .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Huh ?
Marketing: Mm ?
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: What the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh right .
User Interface: I think you have to uh change your desktop uh
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: size .
Marketing: Ooh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'Kay . Everybody ready ?
Industrial Designer: Not really .
Marketing: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Sorry .
Project Manager: No no no . Yes yes yes .
User Interface: {gap} computer is uh not functioning ?
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Where do I find this ? I'm not so g display huh ?
User Interface: Uh display .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And then uh settings ?
Industrial Designer: Appearance ?
Marketing: Huh .
User Interface: Mm I'm not sure I {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} You read the newsflash ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'Kay . Can we get started
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: No what was it about ?
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: or is there some pressing issue ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah my computer is not functioning properly .
Project Manager: Oh no pressing .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Did you plug in the power cable when you come back ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah . No but my screen is reduced in size . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . That's difficult . Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: What ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Feedback .
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: {gap} alt delete . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Format . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Format save .
Marketing: {gap} . So it doesn't draw the attention away .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: This is dreadful .
User Interface: I made uh uh my own map .
Project Manager: Oh yeah sure .
Industrial Designer: No not this , but the task .
User Interface: It's a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You have Playstation also ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} No that's okay . No I just flapped it , closed it , took it here and then this happened . Ah . Uh {disfmarker} where was it ? In settings ? Okay . Alright . Thank you .
Project Manager: Huh .
Industrial Designer: Do you guys like your tasks ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I spent a lot of time thinking about what I was gonna do and then a couple of minutes before this I get my function you know the information that I need .
User Interface: Yeah wa wa you actually {disfmarker} Yeah . But it it's not clear what you have to to to type uh type in your presentation .
Industrial Designer: So frustrating .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . I I had a whole idea and then just was typing it and then oh . I have to do that so switch .
Industrial Designer: Yeah {disfmarker} Yeah exactly . This presentation is mainly based on my own ideas 'cause I hadn't time to intergrate tha the information yet so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Really annoying .
Project Manager: Okay . So there we are again .
Marketing: By your humble P_M_ .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay this is the agenda . Um we have three presentations , I heard .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Really . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah really . {vocalsound} So who wants to start ?
Marketing: Yeah that's fine {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: We have to start it right away ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . Uh this is you ?
Marketing: Functional ? Yeah functional requirements .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Marketing: Alright . I'm gonna talk about functional requirements . Um {disfmarker} Well uh some research has be done uh has been done . Uh observing of one hundred uh subjects in the usability lab using a remote control . Uh and they also filled in a questionnaire . The findings were um , well you can see them for yourself . They disliked the look-and-feel of current remotes controls . {vocalsound} Users think they're ugly . Um {vocalsound} they do not match the the operating behaviour of the users . So they they d they don't match what they want to have on it . Um {vocalsound} they are often lost somewhere in the room . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . And they're bad for R_S_I_ . {vocalsound} I don't know uh how a user can reach that but okay . Um {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ts
Marketing: there is also uh was also some research on uh the most relevant and and and irrelevant uh f functions . Uh most irrelevant and less used were audio settings , mono , stereo , uh pitch , bass . Um screen settings for brightness and colour and stuff like that . Um but they are used . I mean the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So they do need to be in the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah they do need to be on the on the remote control .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: I mean if you can't control the the sound settings {disfmarker} I mean if you dislike a very uh loud bass or something , you you need to change that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} often .
Marketing: So um yeah we have to .
Industrial Designer: By the way my T_V_ doesn't have an equ equaliser but
Marketing: We c we c Yeah I mean w we can't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Next generation does . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} okay .
Marketing: my my T_V_ has ,
Industrial Designer: No . {vocalsound} Alright .
Marketing: but we we can leave them uh away . Uh most relevant , uh most used functions , uh they speak for themselves I guess . Uh power button , uh channel , volume selection . Uh teletext but we can skip that because I saw the newsflash , and teletext is so outdated that it it's i should not be used uh any more in the future .
Project Manager: N not used anymore .
Marketing: So forget this one .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Uh channel settings , so for programming uh your channels in in the right order .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: By the way where did you guys get that newsflash from ?
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} I was wondering uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I didn't get anything .
Marketing: Yeah , {vocalsound} on on the project uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Not by mail . I receiv the mail but you don't . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: But you you've got more information than {disfmarker} uh .
Marketing: No so it's a text file n in the project folder . So teletext can be skipped .
Project Manager: That's in the presentation , so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Um there was some research on new features in a remote control . Uh about an L_C_D_ screen uh and speech recognition . Well we got an update for the for the audience . Or the the the targeted group . So it's above forty I guess .
Project Manager: Uh below I believe .
Marketing: The new product ? Or below {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah below forty .
Marketing: because that's pretty relevant .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: I thought I read a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Our current customers are in the age group forty plus .
Marketing: Yeah ?
Project Manager: And the new product should reach new markets , which is the customers below forty .
Marketing: Below ? Okay well {vocalsound}
User Interface: But where did you get uh that information ?
Project Manager: That's in a newsflash .
Marketing: that's that's in the newsfla
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: okay that's a good to know . Um because you see see a clear distinction between the age groups , concerning the features .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I mean uh above forty people are not so interested uh not so interested in a screen or speech recognition . Uh but below that age they uh they pretty much are . So I think we can build that in . Um {disfmarker} Yeah well we can skip this part as well , because I thought I read above forty so we could skip the features , but we just have to build them in because uh they find it very interesting . Um well we have to keep all the classic functions but make the buttons as user-friendly as possible . Um and and also there's {disfmarker} so not only the design of the bus uh buttons but o how you can push them , and stuff like that . So the physical uh aspect of it . Um {disfmarker} And I think {disfmarker} and certainly for for the for the lower age groups , uh nice design , which uh does not make the remote control {gap} in your room .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: It's it's actually a part of your interior , of of your design in your room . So it's {vocalsound} the people can say , well what's that , well that's my remote control , so it's d it has to look nice and feel nice , and and have all the functions that uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . But it also needs to have corporate identity .
Marketing: Yeah so the the logo has to be
Project Manager: Present and the colours .
Marketing: uh present yeah , and the colours as well .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So we can't change much of that .
Industrial Designer: Do we have {disfmarker} uh yeah {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah so but I I don't think that's that's a problem because the thing has to have a colour anyway , and most of the times there is a brand present on it .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: So I think that's not gonna gonna affect it very uh very much .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Well that are the the consequences uh on a marketing uh part .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Yes .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: It's open already so you can use {gap} to
Marketing: {gap} .
Project Manager: find yours .
User Interface: Mm . It's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: F_ five .
User Interface: F_ five . Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Go Jurgen .
User Interface: Oh . What is this ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh no . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: How do I uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You pressed alt F_ four ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: No no no . I pressed the mouse button .
Project Manager: Oh great . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's {disfmarker} th that's the self-destruct button .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Okay .
Project Manager: Uh maybe you can do it from your computer so talk us through it .
User Interface: Okay . Um if you all go stand around uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Just {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Computer {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Sure .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's nice . {vocalsound}
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: F_ five . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Alright .
User Interface: I uh had uh two examples .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Um this one is the the yeah the advanced one with a lot of options and functions and buttons .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: This the easy one
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: I think we have to to combine them . And uh yeah merge the best functions of all examples .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Um but yeah the the age is uh under forty ?
Project Manager: The mm yeah .
Marketing: Yeah and and and marketing research stated that that that kind of users are not afraid of of a lot of functions .
User Interface: So we {disfmarker} Okay so so we have the option for more functions .
Marketing: So not not too much but {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: And we do have to integrate the screen and the the speech {disfmarker}
Marketing: And the speech recognition yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: alright .
User Interface: Uh yeah this this one we can remove for kids . It's just only for adults so uh we can uh use some advanced options . But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah from age of sixteen so yeah .
User Interface: Yeah but I prefer we we uh use the the basic options uh yeah . We have to to make them very easy so for just uh zapping around the channels you can just push one button .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: But if you want to to use your your video recorder or something else , you should use use an uh an advanced option .
Marketing: Yeah but uh the the newsflash also stated that it should control only one device , only your television .
User Interface: Okay one device .
Project Manager: Yeah . So n it's very easy .
User Interface: Okay . I didn't see {gap} .
Marketing: So w
Project Manager: Now yeah it's okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay and I also uh yeah . W yeah .
Marketing: So there are not extra options in this case , but uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: We have to make it fashionable . Like you uh said uh before .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Uh yeah the basic functions . Um yeah only use a extra function if they are really needed .
Project Manager: Yeah so maybe you can hide them or something .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah well what what we can do with the screen is is all the the configuration options , you can put that in the screen .
Project Manager: Yeah you make a screen menu or something .
Marketing: And the and the {disfmarker} yeah screen menu to to to uh to do that ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: and then the basic function just on the device itself .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So it looks very simple and all the advanced features are hidden in the screen , uh with a clear menu .
Project Manager: Yeah and the other oth other uh functionality is the screen .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: What does the screen do ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Did I uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Uh . {vocalsound} What are {disfmarker} wh
Project Manager: Yeah . It's low power .
User Interface: did I break it ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: What {gap} .
Project Manager: So what does the screen do ? They said they needed it but what does it do ? What do they want with the screen ?
User Interface: For for the advanced functions I think .
Project Manager: Yeah that's what we make it up .
Marketing: Yeah well it {gap} yeah it didn't
Project Manager: So but what did the marketing {disfmarker}
Marketing: it didn't say what they want to do with the screen .
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: Well I , my guess is it's it's pretty handy for advanced uh advanced functions .
Project Manager: Yeah okay it's handy . With no predefined uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Like searching for channels and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ah look .
Marketing: Yeah searching for channels , programming them .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We have your uh {disfmarker} oh never mind . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We're back online . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay . That's uh {disfmarker} I'm al I'm almost finished so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um the {disfmarker} we have to to to watch out for the {disfmarker} i if we make it f very fashionable , it it the functional functionality will go down . So we have to make uh a compromise between functionality and fashional fashionable
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Content and form .
User Interface: yeah content and form .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Now that that was uh was the end .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That was the end . Okay .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well my presentation is a bit uh sucky . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well you can improvise right ?
Project Manager: Uh which one is it ? Technical functions ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah a little bit .
Project Manager: This one ?
Industrial Designer: Uh no . No no . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Functional requirements ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah I think that would be it then . {gap}
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You didn't put it in ? Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I have no idea .
Marketing: So we we can go for {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That w {gap} .
Project Manager: {gap} it's not really English . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Let me check . I know .
Project Manager: Uh kick off . Oh working design I got it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So we can go for the look-and-feel of the the left example , and then a screen on top of it .
Project Manager: Here you go .
Industrial Designer: Alright how do I uh skip pages ?
Project Manager: Just uh press uh {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The keys yeah ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Alright . Um yeah well I was working on this before I got my information . So I was just working off the top of my head and using my colin common knowledge about uh remote controls .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And well the info on the website which came too late .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um so I didn't really know what kind of functions we had to put into it yet .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So uh uh this is basically an overview of what we discussed in our last uh meeting . Those were my uh starting points .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh I was working on a s yeah on a schedule , and I was supposed to do it like this . But um yeah then uh the information came and it was kind of exact with all the steps in the remote control that I had to follow , so I was trying to organise them for myself .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: And then make the
Project Manager: Design yeah .
Industrial Designer: the design , a the actual design ,
Marketing: Design ? Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but I never came around to do that . So I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to say about it .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I mean everything speaks for itself I guess . Mean you press a button um {vocalsound} the it tru goes , it sends a signal to a chip ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: which uh translates it into infrared signal of certin spatial frequencies .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah frequency . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And uh or temporal fr frequencies actually . And then uh through a uh transformer , it the signal gets boosted and then sent to the to the receiver on the T_V_
Project Manager: Yeah decoder .
Industrial Designer: and the T_V_ will translate it into a function . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah well this was actually {vocalsound} all I got around to do .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Blank . Yeah okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I mean I dunno if I'm too slow for this stuff , but uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Work harder .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay shou should we make a list of the of all the functions we want uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Whatever .
Project Manager: Yeah . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah we want to incorporate in uh into it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: 'Kay . Um for those that didn't see yet um the basic new requirements of the management were no teletext , only for T_V_ . Uh it should be designed for a use g uh group below forty , but I don't think it's w wrong if we can uh target the current customer group as well .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: And uh the corporate identity should be clear in the design of the remote control . And we have to decide on the functions , and on the , let's see what was it , uh the target group . We have to make be clear what that is .
Marketing: {gap} group of users , or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah users .
Marketing: because it says below forty I mean . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah so I think it's easy but {disfmarker}
Marketing: I guess that's that's the tar yeah uh or male and female {disfmarker}
User Interface: But uh it's it's also for children or just uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah it's below forty so we can decide where to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh six {disfmarker} the marketing research started on s on the age of sixteen .
User Interface: Okay . Okay .
Marketing: Sixteen to twenty five , twenty five to thirty five , thirty five to forty five , something like that .
Project Manager: Okay . So below forty is okay .
Marketing: So um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But we need an {disfmarker} lower level which to s uh focus .
Marketing: How do you mean ?
Project Manager: So is it from sixteen to forty ? Is it from twenty to forty ? Is it from thirty ?
Marketing: Uh sixteen to forty .
Project Manager: Yeah ? 'Kay .
User Interface: Yeah . We we have to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well I I guess people of sixteen are are quite used to technology .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So they they adapt to it pretty soon I guess .
User Interface: And if we have a larger public we have uh yeah more options to to uh sell our product .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah so what we might wanna do is uh yeah cust I have customised the screen functions , if you know what I mean .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: The uh younger users are more acquainted with these kind of machines so they can use more advanced functions . But maybe elderly people don't understand it so well , so they need a simpler remote .
Project Manager: Design . Mm .
Industrial Designer: And yeah that you can choose what the design displays , or wha whatever .
User Interface: Yeah that's that's why uh I wanted to to make yeah two uh different uh yeah groups of functions . The the simple functions for for the the whole public , and the the advanced options for the younger people yeah who are more yeah experienced with uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} And maybe y
Industrial Designer: Experienced yeah .
Marketing: But uh all incorporated in the screen or or just on the remote itself ?
User Interface: Na I w I should uh put uh the the yeah the extra advanced options on the onto the onscreen display .
Marketing: Yeah
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: like like you have a visual of the of the brightness with with a kind of sliding bar and a bus and and stuff like that for sound and and vis and and visuals ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . So is {disfmarker} you should have a menu for all the the functions you don't use regular and which are {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh you can make a {disfmarker} if you make a drawing .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Aye yeah .
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Uh {gap} .
Project Manager: Shall I uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh black's okay . {vocalsound} And draw it very big .
Project Manager: Yeah . It's okay .
Marketing: Oh . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: {gap} no , it doesn't have line control , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah we get the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah well , this is basically uh it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The remote ?
Project Manager: The remote , yeah ?
Marketing: alright the remote ? Um well usually the power button is on top I guess .
Project Manager: Basic . Is on top . Which should be easy , easily reached with the thumb .
Marketing: Yeah so it should fit right in into your hand .
User Interface: Yeah . L left top or right uh top ?
Project Manager: T I s should said right .
Marketing: Right . Right .
User Interface: Yeah , right .
Industrial Designer: Right top .
Marketing: I most people are right-handed so {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah definitely .
Marketing: maybe left-handed special addition , but okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: If you put it like like here . Or something . I dunno . Um then you could put a screen , like on a mobile phone , also on top I guess .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah but if you are using the the normal functions , the the basic functions , you normally press them on the u yeah .
Project Manager: Do the also with the thumb . So it should be a little bit longer so that you can put your uh thumb , also reach the middle . Or you should screen at the bottom and then you can see it very clearly .
Marketing: Okay so y yeah you have you have it in your hand , and the screen is below , and the buttons are in the middle .
Project Manager: You you need to be able to hold it so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay for example {vocalsound} if you put the screen here , it's more about the functions now than the than the layout .
Project Manager: Yeah okay that's true . Layout . That's for the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Doesn't work too well . It's uh it's bent .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I can't help it . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} .
User Interface: You broke it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Project Manager: Man . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Right .
Project Manager: Yeah okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay you get it . Uh for example if y if you put all the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You want the normal piece of paper ? And you have a pen ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And might be easier huh ?
Marketing: Maybe this . {gap} kind of works .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Marketing: Like if you have like uh ten buttons for for all the for all the channels ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Uh .
Marketing: um and here one for for
Project Manager: And the for flipping up and down .
User Interface: Yeah yeah . And volume control .
Marketing: Yeah that that usually uh {disfmarker} like here , here , here , here .
Industrial Designer: Yeah I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So you have up and down for the for the channels , and left and right for the volume uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And left to right . And those can also be used for the menu .
Industrial Designer: Yeah exactly . I thought {disfmarker} but this is really your department , that we need just the functional display and four cursors .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah okay but this is function so if you can use them for multiple things {disfmarker}
Marketing: And you you have {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker}
Marketing: most of the time you have one button in the middle . It says menu ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah okay .
Project Manager: For the menu . Yeah .
Marketing: and then if you press it you {disfmarker} the screen gets activated and then you can use these buttons to scroll up and down and left and right to go into functon
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and then just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: mo most of the time this menu button is also like okay , to to confirm a a kind of action .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So you scroll into it , okay . You select a function like v like uh bass . You just adjust it with these two buttons .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Then okay to confirm , and then uh on on each on each screen there's there should be an option to go back to a to a upper level .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: And then finally say okay , exit . Or or one button to exit it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Uh in one time I dunno , that's not really my department .
User Interface: {vocalsound} And do we need a a logo on our uh remote control , or {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's more your uh your department to to uh to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . But it should be {disfmarker} if the screen is here then the logo should be like on on top ,
User Interface: On the left uh top yeah .
Marketing: yeah . I mean it's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah but that depends on where you put the screen .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: But it's essential that there is a screen .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah I mean the position of the screen is also more essential than {disfmarker} I mean we we look where we have space left and then put the logo over there .
Project Manager: Yeah . And for the speech uh recognition part , if we want to incorporate that , we need a microphone .
Marketing: But um {disfmarker} Yeah so it should be {disfmarker} I mean if you have it in your hand here , should be on top somewhere , maybe .
Project Manager: Yeah . This would be uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Why did we wanna put the display in the bottom ?
Marketing: I mean i
Project Manager: No that's not s sure so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: That's not sure
Project Manager: uh we need a display .
Marketing: but it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah may maybe because you're {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Because yeah if you use the functions your hand will block the display .
User Interface: Yeah okay but {gap} only for the basic functi if you're going to use the advanced option , you're going to press the the menu button and then {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: Yeah I mean a screen on top looks more lo logical to me .
Industrial Designer: Normal for logical t
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Also because people use m mobile phones and they also have the screen on top .
Project Manager: Yeah they're used to it .
User Interface: Okay the {disfmarker} yeah . That's possible .
Marketing: So you you just have to reach a little bit for the power button .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: I mean if you grab it .
Industrial Designer: On once it's on it's on . You don't need the power button .
Marketing: But most most of the times if a if if a T_V_'s on standby people just press a channel to put it on .
User Interface: Yeah , okay . Okay we put it on top .
Marketing: So we put this on top , and then make the corporate logo
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: like over here . R_R_ . And j and the microphone , I mean it can be very small . If you look at your mobile phones {gap} are some stripes , {vocalsound} little little holes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Maybe on the top or even on the side .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah maybe on the side . I mean if the if the microphone is good .
Project Manager: Yeah but then it's possible that you cover it with your hand so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: True .
Marketing: Yeah okay . So on the on the top is better .
Project Manager: I think that top is the best option .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But if you uh if you hold the ma the remote like this , if you put it on the top on the side {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah okay .
Industrial Designer: I dunno . Should be able to work .
Marketing: Yeah . {gap} .
Project Manager: Depends on the sensitivity of the microphone , but I think that's okay .
Industrial Designer: Never mind . Can we leave this up to you ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah it doesn't matter that much . So {disfmarker} but um the screen is on top ? Which functions did we have left ? I mean this is basically numbers , volume , uh channel up and down .
Project Manager: Volume . Up . Channel up and down , and the control of the advanced options .
Marketing: Screen is over there .
Project Manager: So maybe it , we should decide what advanced options we want to put in the L_C_D_ screen .
User Interface: Yeah . If we {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah . That's uh that's a good one .
Industrial Designer: Yeah so we we needed to integrate the sound and uh and image options right ?
Project Manager: Yeah so sounds ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Like uh bass uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Sound ?
Industrial Designer: so we need kind of an equaliser . If you {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Equaliser . So if you have sound {disfmarker} But not too advanced . I mean most T_V_s use only treble and bass .
Project Manager: Yeah
User Interface: Yeah it it's just a remote control so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and they're {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah treble , middl middle , bass or something .
Project Manager: They're not used often so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . It's uh pretty hard to write .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ah as {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm . Okay but you have sound ?
Project Manager: Yeah sounds .
Marketing: Yeah just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: oh y you have digital uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Marketing: better write it down over there yeah .
Project Manager: Of course . I'm just a {vocalsound} secretary .
Marketing: So you have sound .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Coffee ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah sound and then within sound I guess treble and bass ?
Industrial Designer: Yes please .
Project Manager: Treble bass .
Industrial Designer: {gap} the mono stereo option ?
Marketing: Yeah . Also .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And there there was something else also .
Project Manager: Pitch I believe , yeah .
Industrial Designer: And then pitch .
Marketing: Pitch . Yeah . But pitch , isn't that {disfmarker} yeah that's the the height of the tone .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The fr yeah the frequency of the tones , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah okay ,
Project Manager: Yeah and mono stereo .
Marketing: wh why would you use that ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah isn't that that depends on the on the signal of the of what program you're watching .
Marketing: If people like talk like uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: And also the tuning part ?
Marketing: Programming part .
Project Manager: Yeah programming . So channel programming ?
Marketing: Uh so we have sound , yeah ? Channel programming .
Industrial Designer: And yeah in the functionality of the
User Interface: Television uh itself uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: no no of the remote uh do do we want uh the buttons to make sound when you press them ? As a confirmation or whatever you know ?
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: I dunno .
Marketing: I think it g it gets annoying .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: I mean most mobile phones used that in the beginning but {disfmarker}
User Interface: We we could make an option for it , but uh you can disable s
Industrial Designer: Under the a yeah advanced option menu you can put those things .
User Interface: Yeah . But uh the the television itself has also the the options {gap} brightness and uh screen colour etcetera . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Contrast yeah .
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: Yeah but people don't want to sit on their knees on their knees in front of their television with {gap} only three buttons then it's very hard to
Project Manager: Mm . No . Uh , so contrast ,
Marketing: y yeah contrast and brightness ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: bright ,
Marketing: Yeah those are the most used I guess . If you look at your monitor .
Project Manager: uh {disfmarker} And the others were in your presentation right ? So I can just copy those ?
Marketing: Well {vocalsound} yeah well I guess that these were the only ones , I guess .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} It's easy . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But so we have we have T_V_ options , which is all this .
Marketing: Yeah . I will look it up .
Project Manager: Yeah the button options and the L_C_D_ options .
Industrial Designer: The sound , sound and image . And you have in that uh the indeed the remote control options .
Project Manager: Indeed .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So we need two menus kind of thing .
Project Manager: Yeah you have basically a button menu , which you can use directly , uh according to the old principle .
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh .
Project Manager: And the L_C_D_ options are activated by some some software options , thats communicates with the infrared uh decoder yeah .
Marketing: Yeah with the chip and then {gap} I mean {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So you {disfmarker} You have an additional processor and and software part .
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} yeah . Well {disfmarker} yeah we have power button , whether that's present .
Project Manager: Compared to o
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Channel volume selection present . Uh numbers present . Yeah a audio settings , mono , stereo , pitch , bass , treble . Screen settings , brightness and colour .
Project Manager: L_ s Yeah . Colour . Yeah I I call it contrast .
Marketing: Yeah con contrast is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah I make it c colour .
Marketing: Yeah okay , colour and brightness .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Um and what you say , channel settings or channel programming ? So you you have an option to to start scanning all the frequencies , and when it encounters one , well it shows on your T_V_ . And then you can um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah and automatically um {disfmarker} Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh and then you can select uh a number in your remote on which you want to save it .
Project Manager: Yeah so I've g channel program is autoseek ?
Marketing: Yeah , autoseek .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh name a channel , or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well most T_V_s automatically display the name , which they get through the cable .
Project Manager: Oh they get automatic names , okay .
Marketing: Yeah . So you only have to choose the position on your
Project Manager: {gap} .
Marketing: It only has to match the the channel frequency on your T_V_ , with with the with the position on your T_V_ and and so your remote .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah but can you also say I want f uh Veronica on the channel number uh five or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Help .
Marketing: If you already programmed it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: If you want to move it . Yeah that should be possible too .
Project Manager: Yeah . How do you call that ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah how do you call that ? Mm ? Wait you you should be able to to browse through a list or something , which w displays all the all the values , all the channels which are possible .
Project Manager: Channels ? Yeah .
Marketing: I mean like one to f thirty of or ninety or whatever .
Project Manager: Ninety nine or something . Yeah .
Marketing: Just browse through it and then um in some kind of way see if it if it if it is programmed .
Project Manager: S swap channels ? Can I call it that ?
Marketing: Yeah . Swap channels .
Project Manager: Swap's good option . Okay . Uh other functions ?
Marketing: So you {disfmarker} most of the time if you if you swap it {disfmarker} S uh let's say for example you have uh R_T_L_ five on on channel five . And Veronica on channel eight and you want to move Veronica to channel five , most of the times you override the previous uh the previous one .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Okay . Well that's 's up to uh Mister User Interface Designer .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . It's it's pretty uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: yeah I mean you have to look on on the menu
Industrial Designer: {gap} working design . Doch .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Also .
Marketing: on the T_V_ .
Project Manager: That's {disfmarker} you're {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} He only has to figure out how it has to look .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah but also , which buttons you have to press to get a certain result ?
Industrial Designer: And how
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: to use {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And the working design was to specify how ph the physical interation between the components was , as I believe .
Industrial Designer: Yeah okay . But {disfmarker} You did your homework . But um {disfmarker} yeah . Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Or or is it too hard to to ju to just do it all on your remote ? To programme the channels ?
Project Manager: No I don't think so .
Industrial Designer: No no . It should be able to do any remote .
User Interface: No that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh .
Project Manager: But I think the communication with the television is difficult . But that's not our part .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: We don't have to design a protocol so {disfmarker}
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's true . That's true .
Industrial Designer: Thank god .
User Interface: Okay {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . So we have a figure a figure out a way to to do that easily . I mean th the autoseek is is not a problem .
Project Manager: No that's the {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean you uh you uh current channel and then then it just says , uh on which number do you want to save this , and you just press a number on your remote , and then say confirm , okay , and then it's it's saved . It's easier , {gap} it's it's it's harder to , if you have already programmed it , to to swap .
Project Manager: Yeah . So but {disfmarker}
Marketing: So we have to think of something for that .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} The User Interface Designer can design a menu for all these function I put them on the {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah k kind of structure into layers .
User Interface: On the uh yeah can you i make a a map with with all the {disfmarker} yeah 'cause it's now {disfmarker} there are lots and lots of documents
Project Manager: {gap} . Yeah . Yeah I can .
User Interface: and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I'll just try to reorganise uh things . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So you design the basic function menu for the L_C_D_ screen ? Uh um {disfmarker} I think {vocalsound}
Marketing: And and the layout of of the thing itself .
Project Manager: th I think the yeah the layout of the screen
User Interface: The the layout of the remote control ?
Project Manager: and I think you can concentrate more on the button placement and the placement of the uh screen itself on the {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} .
User Interface: Isn't that more the the u uh the user interface part ?
Project Manager: {gap} . No I d I think that's more in {disfmarker} {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Uh all the functional uh aspects of the remote I think are in my department .
Marketing: Maybe more on {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I have to know what it has to do , so if you wanna you know the changing the channels kind of s thing is , I have to integrate that in the design .
Project Manager: Okay . So he's layout and you're function .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Form function okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I think that's a that's a good separation .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: But do I have to to uh to yeah to make the the menu layout also ? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Are you going to do that ?
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah I guess so .
User Interface: Yeah ? I I'm going to make {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think i that's your department yes ,
User Interface: yeah o okay .
Project Manager: because w he already knows what {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah we have to kind of work together .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: If if I make the the the yeah the menu like , I have to state which function has to be in the menu ,
Project Manager: But we're not allowed . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and then you have to decide , it's , in a in a way that b is user-friendly .
User Interface: Yeah . Okay . Y you you are going to make a list of what functions are uh are going to to be on the the screen , the menu screen .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: And I'm going to make a a nice menu uh with with {gap} pages and yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: With with some l with some layers in it .
Project Manager: Yeah and also make clear which buttons to press to get certain result ,
Marketing: So some menus .
Project Manager: because that's always the difficulty .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Every device has its own {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Well I guess this this button , the the the okay ,
Project Manager: Menu okay .
Marketing: menu okay . Or you can incorporate two uh difference uh different buttons . Uh like uh for your mobile phone . Um so this is only for to get in the menu , or to exit it .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: And then one to confirm , and one to go one step back .
Project Manager: Back . Yeah .
Marketing: So it's like the the save button on your your mobile phone , if you have a Nokia or like that . Or the or the no button .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: To go one step back you {gap} it's only two extra buttons ,
User Interface: Yeah . W we {disfmarker}
Marketing: but if it if it's very clear that they are for the screen {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh I think we have to to group , to make two groups . Um the {disfmarker} one group for the for the display , and one group for the basic functions , and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah but they're incorporated {gap} ? Up and down is {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah okay but we we have a m
Marketing: Yeah because this this is used for both .
User Interface: yeah but maybe that's that's not uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Smart ?
User Interface: yeah if you're if you're z zapping uh with your uh yeah remote control , you can press the the menu button , and then you are suddenly into the the yeah the display .
Marketing: Into your screen . Okay . So you
Industrial Designer: You wanna separate uh {vocalsound}
Marketing: l should leave the menu button out of here .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: And {gap} and just put it under the screen , the screen {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Put it on top .
User Interface: Yeah j just just group group the {disfmarker} yeah we make these the advanced functions and these the basic functions .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So we make a yeah a line between them .
Marketing: Yeah . But we should place the screen on top , right ?
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: F oh yeah . Okay yeah we swap uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: But that's uh J Jurgen's department .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . So we make it a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . You just you just find out and {gap} .
Project Manager: You just make the layout . You {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: do we do the extra two buttons or not ?
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think you should .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's easier . If you put too many functions in one button it gets confusing .
Project Manager: Yeah okay . That's true .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . So we have a a menu button and a s
Project Manager: And to , okay and back , also .
User Interface: Okay . Okay and back button .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah , or confirm and back . Whatever .
Project Manager: And of course the four arrows .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: But those are still y doubly used . Both the L_C_D_ {disfmarker}
Marketing: Should we save this picture , or or you know what it looks like ?
User Interface: Yeah I'm I'm not s clear about uh the the extra two buttons . We have a menu button and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . That that just to to activate the screen . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's the the one with the {disfmarker} yeah okay .
Project Manager: Menu button access the menu in the L_C_D_ screen .
Marketing: And then with these buttons , woa , y you navigate .
Project Manager: You can navigate .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: But you can also navigate the channels . And the volume .
User Interface: Okay so that that's not uh {disfmarker} Yeah that {disfmarker} Those are
Project Manager: Those are both both {disfmarker}
User Interface: multifunctional .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Hey is it interesting for users if we put LED lights under the buttons ? So that if you uh press on the menu function that only the buttons that are used for the menu are ligh li light up .
Marketing: Yeah . L l litten up yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Oh five minutes .
Marketing: That's very good idea .
Industrial Designer: N
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: Light uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah that's a good idea because then it becomes clear which buttons are active now , which you can use .
Industrial Designer: Yeah and then it's also easier to integrate several functions in one button .
Project Manager: Yeah sure .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Anything else ?
Marketing: Those buttons are are lit up .
Industrial Designer: I think not .
Marketing: But just one thing . Should we use those two ? Them ? Or only this to to scroll ?
Project Manager: I've {disfmarker}
Marketing: And then use the two functional buttons to confirm , to go into something ? Oh no we have to use this to adjust some some bars ?
Project Manager: Volume .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah keep it optional 'cause maybe you can you know go left to right and up and down in a in one menu .
Marketing: Yeah . And maybe we should use this also as an okay button , still . And then just only a back button .
Project Manager: Well we have those buttons . We use all four .
User Interface: No {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The pr the problem with the okay button in the middle is , sorry
Project Manager: Yeah okay go ahead .
Marketing: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: sorry , uh is uh if you're pressing up and down , you can easily press the okay once you , when you're not already at your choice .
User Interface: Yeah . So maybe make one uh one okay button and and one navigation button .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah that was already decided .
Marketing: And one back .
User Interface: Yeah the with with the the channel and the volume uh {disfmarker} yeah m a multifunctional navigation button .
Project Manager: Okay that's what we decided earlier on .
User Interface: Yeah okay . Yeah .
Project Manager: Right okay . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You wanna close down huh ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah I wanna close down .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I have to , sorry .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: it's not because I don't like you but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: That's okay .
Project Manager: yh we have lunch break ,
Industrial Designer: Already .
Project Manager: and then we can work for thirty minutes , and I have to write very fast to make the minich min minutes . And then uh we'll see {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Alright . How m how long is the lunchbreak ?
Project Manager: I don't know . Nobody told me . {vocalsound}
Marketing: We have to ask . {vocalsound}
User Interface: But do we have to write uh to write down uh the our stuff now ? Or first lunchbreak ?
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: No I th believe there's first lunch break .
User Interface: Because I {disfmarker} I've everything in my head now {vocalsound} so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Or you can just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think you can put uh the laptop back in the room and {disfmarker}
User Interface: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: This is {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yes sir . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Time pressure .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Kay . Yeah it's a lot of pressure .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Sorry for my uh not finished presentation uh .
Project Manager: That's okay . Oh yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh no no . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah we'll kick your ass later . No . {vocalsound} Uh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Bring it on .
Project Manager: I don't know if it works but it should be saved .
Marketing: Aye {disfmarker} Y you saved it ? Does it save automatically in the project folder ? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . It's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . We'll see .
Project Manager: Should be here . Smart board .
Marketing: Just put back my laptop .
Project Manager: Don't know if you can use it but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Alright .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah you can open it with the picture preview or stuff like that .
User Interface: And uh we have to make uh some maps with uh with the all the the data we uh gathered .
Project Manager: Yeah . I try to organise it by these three .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} . It's it's just my own map so I put everything into the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah {gap} yeah yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't really mind . I just put the minutes here and we'll see .
User Interface: But you got some extra information uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah that's in the functional design uh folder .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah that's just basically what I just showed .
User Interface: But where do you did you get the newsflash ?
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah I got it by {disfmarker}
User Interface: You're the only one uh {disfmarker} okay .
Project Manager: yeah . I'm gonna get kicked if I don't do it so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} internet .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Alright .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Make me proud .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I'll try to .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So first we have a lunchbreak now ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: I believe so . {gap} just ask . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . I dunno where she {gap} .
| |
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Project Manager: Okay . Uh door is closed . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , let's begin . Because if we have as much time as the last uh meeting , we'll have to hurry up .
Marketing: I'm listening .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Um well I'll start with the presentation again , the agenda .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Great .
Project Manager: Yo . So . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} This one I think .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh yeah . Well alright . Um well , I'll show you the notes . It's not as uh interesting as it should be because we just uh had the meeting ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but I'll show them . We'll get your presentations again on the conceptual design . Um {disfmarker} Then we'll have to dec decide about the control , the remote control concepts . I've put a f uh a file in the project management folder , which says exactly uh what kind of decisions we should take .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So {vocalsound} this time we exactly know what to decide about .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright , great .
Project Manager: And then we'll close again .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Well these are some examples , but we'll talk about them later . We'll {vocalsound} first look at your uh presentations . Alright ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Walter will uh start again this time ?
Marketing: Yeah , great .
Project Manager: Yo .
Marketing: Alright , Trendwatch .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right . I will speak about uh latest trends trends , latest fashion updates , and uh things we must not do .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Marketing: Uh the trends . {vocalsound} It's very important that uh the control is fancy looking and good uh feeling . Uh this because of our last model was very functional , but {vocalsound} it uh people didn't like that , so our new mo model must be very good-looking . That's uh something you uh have to take a look at .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Alright .
Marketing: And uh the feeling has to be very great . Also the menus and things like that they have to they have to feel great .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Um there's a minus uh two times here , because this is the most important point . This is uh two times as less important ,
Project Manager: Less . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and uh same for this one . {vocalsound} Um , technological technological innovations , that's uh regarded very highly too .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh such as an uh L_C_D_ screen , uh speech uh acknowledgement , as we uh talked about earlier .
Project Manager: Well , yeah .
Marketing: So we have to have uh something like that , like we uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: L_C_D_ and our uh our fronts .
Marketing: Right . {vocalsound} Uh the last point is easy to use . Well I think that uh speaks for s for itself . I don't know who's uh who's going to look at that .
Industrial Designer: Easy to use ?
Project Manager: Well , easy to use uh s is a bit uh contradictionary with the first uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: I think that's your ta
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Functional is not an issue , and then easy to use .
Marketing: Yeah , I know .
Project Manager: Well we have to choose one of them . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think we have to go for the first one .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: It's the most important one . So {gap} we have to uh take that one .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So it it {vocalsound} it isn't very important that {vocalsound} that it works easy .
User Interface: Well something fancy looking can be can be easy to use .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} But {vocalsound} it has to look great .
Project Manager: Yeah . We'll we'll look at uh {gap} .
Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , yeah ,
Marketing: We'll see . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: you can make a very complicated uh uh remote anyway , so ease of use {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's not a very comp complicated device .
Marketing: Yeah , right . But the most important thing is that it looks great and people say {gap} wow , that's real great uh great concept .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Alright . Uh these are the new colours of this year .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So it must be very bright , very colourful .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: People like this .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So we we have to think uh in this direction .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: So i set your mind to it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Findings ? Fashion update ? Fruit and vegetables are cool .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh you think ?
Marketing: I am told . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: The group we are targeting is uh very pleased with fruit and vegetables .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {vocalsound} we we we might cons consider in front of uh in in that sort of uh way .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Bananas .
Marketing: Uh furthermore uh material , that's your part , should be very strong . I was thinking of something like uh {vocalsound} well uh iron plate over it ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: maybe in a colour or something ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: that looks so f really flashy but it it is also strong .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: B
Marketing: And that's uh also for the younger public .
Project Manager: Well the the handy thing about our fronts is that we can follow these trends e ev every year . Th this year it's fruits but next year it's it's something totally different .
Marketing: Yeah , that's great .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: But I think we can all make the the fronts of titanium or something uh really thin .
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: So it looks very heavy but you can still uh use it very easily .
Project Manager: Yep , alright .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Well , the don'ts . Older people like dark colours and simple shapes . Well we don't want uh older people ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: we want young people .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: So uh we're gonna turn that around .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: We're gonna have real uh cool shapes and lots of colours . Right ?
Project Manager: Wood is popular . Aha .
Marketing: Okay . We don't want wood .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , among the old people , yeah .
Marketing: Old people . So , that's it for me .
Project Manager: Alright . Nice , uh well {gap} show us .
Industrial Designer: Right , I am going to tell you something about the components design . Uh again I have uh put up the specification properties . This uh so um uh the different uh components of the of of the device . And the materials ? Um I have heard several things , so I uh I'll have to change that on the way . But uh the case ? Uh I suggested uh in the previous meeting hard plastic . But uh as you indicated uh it should be strong .
Marketing: Yeah , we should change that .
Industrial Designer: It should feel strong . So maybe plastic is not uh sufficient .
Project Manager: Well maybe it it it is ,
Industrial Designer: We should move to uh something {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but it doesn't look strong . So maybe {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well yeah . Y Hard plastic i is of course uh pretty pretty tough , but it doesn't have a really really tough look . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: No no no .
Project Manager: But we still have to look at our price of course . Because uh if we want an L_C_D_ uh window etcetera uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Also {disfmarker} Yeah . Mm-hmm . But we'll return to that .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: Uh the buttons of course rubber , I think everyone agrees . And electrical cables , copper is all pretty basic stuff . The chips made of silicon , I guess . I think that's the best uh way to do it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And infra infrared l LED is uh just a simple bulb .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Then I've uh {vocalsound} had a few findings , made a few findings . Uh the target audience product style . Um it's uh um generally the case that uh senior and wealthy people above uh forty five years old uh like , as you said , uh particularly the traditional materials as such as wood and materials such as that . They also like straightforward shapes and luxurious style . But of course that's not our uh things this . So this is things we must not do .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: And then we have uh young uh and dynamic uh people , which is of course our uh group , the people we aim at . Um under forty five years old . Uh they like soft materials uh with primary colours . Soft materials is of course uh agai again a bit a contradiction with uh our uh material choice of what you said , that uh it should be hard an and and and and strong looking .
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But they like soft materials , uh so we might uh we have to consider that . And also they like curved round shapes . So not uh too formal like like uh the older people want . And if uh also a finding but not very ap applicable here , that sports and gaming devices such as uh discmans for jogging and that those kind of devices , gaming devices , should define the characteristics of the device . But uh since we don't have a really a sports or gaming device , so we don't really have to consider that .
Project Manager: Sports uh , they're uh that uh are accessible on on your L_C_D_ uh window uh
User Interface: Soccer fronts . {vocalsound} Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {disfmarker} Huh ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: That's nice . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: All the {gap} results ?
Industrial Designer: Well I also have um several examples of uh styles ,
Marketing: We keep coming back to the fronts . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so you can get a clear picture of uh what I mean .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound} these are the basic uh older older peoples' stuff .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It was not very uh interesting uh , very classical looking ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Nai . Uh no .
Industrial Designer: but that's n that's not what we want .
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: We have these kind of things . I don't know what exactly they are .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Fruity . {vocalsound} Fruity .
Industrial Designer: It looks like {disfmarker} Well you know uh you recognise the shapes ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it's very primary colours , uh bright colours and uh round shapes .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You also uh {vocalsound} see uh this device , it's not very round and {disfmarker} Fruity of course . Yeah , it uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's t terrible .
Industrial Designer: That's true .
Project Manager: Alright .
Industrial Designer: And uh well round shapes , primary colours .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You can see it all here . And of course uh this famous device .
Project Manager: Hmm ?
Industrial Designer: I think as you know something uh some devices like this .
Project Manager: Yeah , alright .
Industrial Designer: So to give you an idea of uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well it's got a strong look , this . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: This has a strong look . Although it's plastic , it's it's grey to to to give it iron look .
Marketing: Yeah , it still has a strong look .
Project Manager: Yeah . And it's round .
Industrial Designer: That's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: But then you are losing your fruity colours .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Well we have to make a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well you can make th th th that middle ring can you you can make another colour . So uh those kind of things you can you can combine .
Marketing: That's true .
Industrial Designer: Well we can't really make a round uh a round remote control . I don't think that's very practical ,
Project Manager: No , it isn't .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} But uh it's important to to uh to think about the colour .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Because if we make it grey or or silvery looking , it it does make it a lot more uh does make it looking a lot more stronger .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: 'Cause if you look at this , it it doesn't look very very strong ,
Marketing: Yeah but the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: becau But this is plastic , and and this too , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: But it doesn't have to look strong . The the results are , the feel of the material is expected to be strongy .
Industrial Designer: The feel ? Uh alright .
Marketing: The feel .
Project Manager: So , if you ti
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: And it it doesn't have to be strong , also .
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Nah yeah the feel {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You you {disfmarker} Maybe you should have uh some some coloured titanium or something .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Only the feel . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So it it looks pretty but it feels strong .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: Oh .
Industrial Designer: And I {disfmarker} Then I have some more findings . Um {vocalsound} uh about the energy energy source of the of the device ,
Marketing: I agree .
Industrial Designer: uh I uh suggest uh the basic battery . I uh got some other um uh uh energy sources of course . But solar energy is not very practical inside a house , because you don't have a have a lot of uh sun .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And uh kinetic and and and dynamos are are not very practical , I think , for uh for a simple remote ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: that's a bit , oh , that's a bit uh {disfmarker} That's a bit uh much .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} No titanium . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And I also suggest uh as a shape uh a double curved case .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh the disadvantage of that that you can use no titanium . That that's the information I received . If you use the curved case , uh a curved case , double curved then you can't use titanium .
Project Manager: What do you exactly mean with double curved ?
Industrial Designer: Now uh this uh to give it a more modern look .
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: And uh {vocalsound} now the the shape , yeah , {gap} a curved case . Um yeah I think uh sort of triangle-shaped bottom or something . Uh {gap} a more modern look not plain , long box style , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I dunno .
Project Manager: Double curved ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I'll draw it ,
Project Manager: It it mean {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , well okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but maybe later .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And it makes uh it gives it a more u user friendly shape , than if you have uh {gap} . Um anyway {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um f as uh for the buttons , simple push buttons . No uh otherwi uh no um difficult scroll things or some uh things like that , because it makes more complex and expensive . And , uh as we agreed , we don't use a speaker or a sensor or um {vocalsound} uh speak uh speech uh controlled {vocalsound} device .
Marketing: Yeah right . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Because it makes it also more complex and expensive . But we do use an L_C_D_ screen , so we uh we do have to consider uh of we have to use a more advanced chip , which is more complex and expensive . But {disfmarker} It's worth the trouble I think ,
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: The buttons can be made of an uh a soft material .
Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker}
User Interface: Because people like that .
Project Manager: This soft material thing from uh {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh rubber is a soft material , I guess .
User Interface: Yeah . Right . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh soft enough .
Marketing: Yeah . Right .
Industrial Designer: So that's uh basically what I want to talk about .
Project Manager: Alright . Okay . We will take that . And then uh Mike ? Okay .
User Interface: Yeah . Well um nah the method um we will um include the buttons as we discussed uh earlier . Um an L_C_D_ s screen will be implemented . Um we must decide where , this meeting .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um there are new developments in speech recognition um systems , {vocalsound} um and they are already being uh used on uh coffee machines . And um well they're cheap , so we could use them now .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh {disfmarker} That's interesting .
User Interface: Um it's not really speech recognition , it's more um like you can um talk to the chip , uh record the message and record an answer , and then once you uh talk to the remote , then um he will a answer with the the prerecorded message that you left . So if I say hi Mike , and you have recorded uh hi Mike back , then you will get that .
Industrial Designer: Oh , yeah , I understand . Yeah .
Marketing: Oh okay . {gap}
Project Manager: Okay . But you can also say that , when you say something , it does some function .
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: No it doesn't does not do anything .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Oh . That's a bit uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: But i it's just a {disfmarker}
Marketing: But that that makes it cheap .
Project Manager: Yes . I understand .
User Interface: Yeah it's it's cheap .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's {vocalsound} it's just a an extra function ,
Project Manager: But {vocalsound} it has no functionality for our remote at all .
Marketing: and it's cheap .
User Interface: No
Marketing: No but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: but that's the gadget they want , or the gimmicks .
Marketing: Yeah , right . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But it it's n nice for young people .
Marketing: Young people love them .
User Interface: Yes , we we should really uh include that one , I think . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: They like gadgets . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , ple Right .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: If it's cheap . Yeah .
User Interface: Well , as I said uh earlier I think the uh L_C_D_ screen should be uh positioned at the lower end of the remote .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um the buttons for screen width and general settings and {gap} uh and that kind of stuff {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: um we can also do let that kind of functions um be shown in the L_C_D_ screen , uh instead of uh extra buttons .
Project Manager: So you put a menu in the L_C_D_ ?
User Interface: I think young people and yeah w well every user would like that . Um the buttons um should be positioned uh positioned the same way as they are on a , well , conventional remote , I think . For the learnability and uh well to keep it recognisable . A voice recognition can be uh implemented . And uh I drew an example ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but it did not work quite the well uh the way I wanted it to do .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright .
Industrial Designer: Can you draw it now of uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: How {disfmarker} How {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ah .
User Interface: Hmm ? Well I have the {disfmarker} I can draw it again ,
Industrial Designer: Can you draw it now ?
User Interface: and I know what I did wrong . I didn't tick the note bo box in the {gap} . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm . Alright .
Marketing: How do you uh uh give input to the menu on the L_C_D_ screen ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um with the uh the up and down and and well buttons and the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Alright . So you have a menu button , and then you can go up and down .
Project Manager: But then we should also have an uh an Okay button .
User Interface: Well I will draw what I had drawn on the screen . Yes .
Marketing: Yeah right .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um I shall draw this . If it uh works .
Industrial Designer: {gap} button , yeah .
Project Manager: Just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} There is already a blank . Yes ? So {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm so have I .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Nah .
Marketing: {gap} . {gap} You have to push hard .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I suggest a banana shape .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Because of the fruity uh fashion .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: No m Next year that's out .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yellow and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah alright , yeah . Just a hunch . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well these little buttons are a bit difficult to uh draw uh correct .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Those are the the cha the channel buttons of course ?
User Interface: Yeah just uh the numbers . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And then below is the L_C_D_ screen ?
User Interface: These these will be bigger in the the real design .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright , yeah .
User Interface: This must be the Okay button used to uh interact with the L_C_D_ screen .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And with this you can uh , yes , go to through the menus
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: and that can Um the video button should be uh an apart button ,
Marketing: You've {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: because you want it to uh t , yeah , to use it fast within one uh click .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: And what's the menu button ?
User Interface: Um it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: And you you need a you need a speaker .
User Interface: Hmm ?
Marketing: For the {disfmarker} {gap}
User Interface: This button can also be the Menu button , we use in the menus {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But how did {disfmarker} How do you get out of the menu then ? Yeah .
User Interface: Well we we can add another button here , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Maybe I you could j just do an an exit with Okay . Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh by pe pressing the menu button again . By pressing the menu button again , you go uh out .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's usual the the the d kind of the way it works .
Project Manager: Yes , well but bec because when you {vocalsound} push Menu you get in ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah ? Yeah ?
Project Manager: and then you have to push Okay when you get to a choice .
User Interface: Ah right . Well you you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . But you can men you can press menu again to get out .
Project Manager: Well that's also the Okay button . That's you you should have uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: No no , we we we should uh add uh a extra Menu button
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: Or you can put in the L_C_D_'s uh window an option Get Out .
User Interface: and this the Okay button .
Marketing: Exit .
Project Manager: Exit {gap} .
User Interface: Ah once you have an extra Menu button , you don't need that that extra option .
Project Manager: Well , it's just a choice .
User Interface: You have uh redundancy .
Marketing: But we need a we need a a recording recording button for the speech uh part .
User Interface: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Or don't {disfmarker}
User Interface: if we decide to uh to implement that , maybe we should .
Industrial Designer: Why would you put it uh then , and where is the recording uh the microphone ?
User Interface: Well they that could be anywhere .
Industrial Designer: Where would you put it ?
User Interface: That's very small . It could be uh down here . {vocalsound} Um . Well , not here .
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh .
User Interface: I {vocalsound} yeah I suggest here . But that's just a little {vocalsound} gap . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Microphone , yeah .
Marketing: Right , and spea speaker at the back , or something .
User Interface: Well the speaker and the microphone , I think , are the same uh little hole thingy .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah I understand .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright .
Industrial Designer: Uh but uh we could uh d do , but it's perhaps more expensive , uh the speaker on the back or something .
User Interface: Well i Um there are a all already being implemented in in coffee machines , so they won't be uh very expensive . But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Huh ?
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: Yeah ? Okay .
User Interface: This is my suggested design .
Project Manager: Well , okay , alright . Um then let's have a look at the decisions we are going to have to make .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Yes . And oh I think as you can see so , the L_C_D_ screen does look better uh at the lower end , or at the bottom .
Project Manager: I'd {disfmarker} I agree .
User Interface: {vocalsound} But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , fine . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fine . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well yeah yeah yeah .
Marketing: Move on . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Oh , um I had some uh examples .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I can live with it .
Project Manager: Yes ?
User Interface: You can uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But {disfmarker} I did not like it very much , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well these are quite obvious , very ugly remote . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Too big . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: They do they don't look fruity enough .
User Interface: No , well th
Marketing: {vocalsound} Nei They're n they're not trendy .
Project Manager: They're all black .
User Interface: Yeah . Well not all . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Hey , that one I like . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh this is for children but {vocalsound} th
Industrial Designer: Tho Yeah those {disfmarker}
Marketing: It doesn't look strong . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: {vocalsound} No .
Industrial Designer: But it doesn't uh the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} The remote . {vocalsound}
User Interface: W but with the colours i it's a bit the way we're going to .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , ok Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah right .
User Interface: Well this is a terrible {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Terrible .
Marketing: This is just crazy .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But it it must not look too childish of course huh ?
Project Manager: It's it's all too much buttons .
User Interface: Um this looks {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Too many buttons . That's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . This uh these are the L_C_D_ screens . I think we should , if it's um possible , uh one with colours , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Nah th It's too expensive .
User Interface: I don't know uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well , that's too expensive I think .
User Interface: Too expensive ? Alright .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Alright . Yeah .
User Interface: Well {disfmarker} Nah .
Industrial Designer: But it {disfmarker} Yeah . {gap}
Project Manager: Okay . Huh .
User Interface: Ha , even more . N
Project Manager: Mm no . {vocalsound} 'Kay .
Marketing: But are we going for a strange uh form ?
Project Manager: No , not very strange .
Marketing: 'Cause people like that .
Industrial Designer: Not not too strange . No .
Marketing: Not too strange .
Project Manager: It still has t
Marketing: You can make the the underside , you can make it more round , where the L_C_D_ is .
Project Manager: Yes . Th a a kind of bridge . So it f falls over the hand .
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: I dunno if you know the No Nokia telephone , with uh the round uh thing at at the bottoms , s something like that .
Project Manager: Yeah ? Yeah ? Yeah .
Marketing: You know ? {gap}
Project Manager: Well I have at home {vocalsound} a remote with a bridge . It's just a half round half half circle at {disfmarker} And then it falls exactly over the hand , and that's very nice . That's {disfmarker} It feels comfortable .
Marketing: Yeah , but people like something uh new you know .
Industrial Designer: Exotic yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , different .
Industrial Designer: We have t Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I will design it , we design it later .
Marketing: Y yis
Industrial Designer: So we'll get to that later I guess .
Marketing: Alright . Great .
Project Manager: Yeah , alright . Um where did I put it ? Um conceptual phase , I think this is it .
Industrial Designer: The specific shape . The {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I got this from our friends .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh yeah the conceptual design .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Our sources .
Project Manager: These are a few examples which we have to decide about . All the the materials from the case , uh the electric cable that's all your uh your side of the story . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Your bag . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Um now from the user interface , your uh package ? {vocalsound} Um where {disfmarker} No well , that's more like the buttons where they have to come . And um {disfmarker} B a bit of , yeah well , a bit of uh design .
User Interface: Yeah , this is what we've just done . Right ?
Project Manager: Yes , but we have to decide about these now .
Industrial Designer: But uh we should decide now .
User Interface: Ah right .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: And uh the trend-watching .
Marketing: Materials are the most , most impor
Project Manager: So as you said , fruity is in , well {gap} sells good .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Wow .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh these things .
Industrial Designer: So we have to uh put it in one uh document . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh yes . Um so if we uh go through them {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Copy paste uh this story into a into a Word document , and then uh put the answers after the subjects . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Not everything .
Industrial Designer: Well we have to decide all these things ?
User Interface: Yeah but {vocalsound} all these examples are uh of a coffee machine .
Project Manager: Yeah well uh {disfmarker} Why should I uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: W we can uh override them ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well a case ? Uh that's me . Uh I suggest {disfmarker} Well what do I suggest actually ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What what kind of properties should it have ? Well we just listened .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh s solid ,
User Interface: I think we {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Why don't we um use uh titanium or or a hard , yeah , some kind of metal for the uh the the whole remote except the front .
Marketing: Do you know the new uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: That {disfmarker} Just like um most cell phones are .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I understand .
Marketing: No {vocalsound} no {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . So we have titanium . {vocalsound}
Marketing: The front is the most important .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah but the non-removable elements of the of the remote , so not the front , could be titanium ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: to give that uh strong look .
Project Manager: You know what ?
Industrial Designer: And then the front is made of plastic . And you can put that on and off , and switch it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: But the feel of plastic isn't strong . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No but you have titanium of course .
User Interface: No but you you have this {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh you have the best of both worlds .
Marketing: Yeah alright , alright . 'Kay .
User Interface: Yeah , you have the re remote in your hand like this . So you feel titanium . {gap}
Industrial Designer: And of course , yeah , you have the the the plastic front end . But you also have the titanium .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Fronts are are cheaper than when they're from plas
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah of course , but yeah {vocalsound} you have to make a decision .
User Interface: And I don't know if you can make steel just any way you want it to .
Marketing: Yeah , but it it's expensive .
Industrial Designer: I guess so .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh titanium I sh I think uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Bendable .
Industrial Designer: Huh ? Well , well the {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Bendable .
User Interface: Well any colour {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: According to my sources , uh it's it's totally possible to make an entire uh uh uh {disfmarker} Titanium is available , and uh we can uh make uh an entire remote out of it , if we want .
User Interface: Yeah , then you you paint it in the colour you want it . The plastic is is the colour you want it .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah . Paint spray .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah alright .
User Interface: So {gap} {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Alright .
Marketing: So , we're going for a titanium back and a plastic front ?
Project Manager: I've uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Project Manager: Titanium back , plastic front .
Industrial Designer: I think that's a nice trade-off .
Project Manager: Okay . Um well I am going to put it in here , uh because we can uh look .
Marketing: Yeah , great .
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} Um solid feel and trendy look .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: So material , um hard plastic for the front ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , for the front and then titanium for the back .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: For the non-removable uh part .
Marketing: But then you have the problem , when you have a titanium back , you can't switch it . When you want an other colour on the front , it doesn't match .
User Interface: Well titanium is neutral . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: You know ?
Industrial Designer: The titan titanium isn't isn't v very {disfmarker} Yeah , i it doesn't uh {vocalsound} curves .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I understand .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No uh I nei . {vocalsound} Titanium is very {disfmarker} No no no , but you know b Titanium is very basic colour ,
Marketing: Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: and it doesn't really matter if we have a purple front on it or a orange front .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I dunno if if you disagree ,
Marketing: Alright .
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but I think it's doesn't matter very much .
User Interface: Our customers will use those uh funky uh trendy colours ,
Marketing: Yeah . Alright .
User Interface: and they don't use uh wood .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Funky customers .
Industrial Designer: And even if it does uh doesn't match , it will uh {disfmarker} People like mm colours that don't match .
User Interface: Mm . Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . And well
Marketing: Alright . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: the the electrical cable is just normal uh {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Cop copper uh material .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Excuse me ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: The electrical cable uh does {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's uh from uh our coffee uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah copper i just a ba basic uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: No we don't use an electrical cable .
Project Manager: {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah inside , but this is for the coffee uh machine .
Industrial Designer: Yeah in {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah well inside the remote control we use a couple of uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Of course .
User Interface: Yeah , but that's not what's meant here , I think . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Nei .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: So external .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh external ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well {gap} {vocalsound} A coffee grind doesn't have {disfmarker} Na ja . Never mind the coffee grind .
Project Manager: Well uh
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: all the all the inside work of our remote is uh standard work . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The chip is normal silicon .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh the buttons are normal , etcetera .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay ? So that's just easy .
Industrial Designer: Alright . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Uh we decide about that just by looking at our competitors and our {vocalsound} earlier uh remotes . The conceptual specification of the user interface ? Um well we have our beautiful drawing .
User Interface: Well I got a better one here
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright .
User Interface: and I will um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well you can put that in uh into the shared folder ,
User Interface: The shared folder .
Project Manager: and then I'll put it in our end report .
User Interface: I will work this out uh for the uh next meeting .
Project Manager: Yes , you can {disfmarker} Mm yeah . You can uh put some uh which button is what .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Um
User Interface: Yeah yeah yeah .
Project Manager: the trend-watching {disfmarker} {gap} included these days . And what do we ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We thing that fruit and bright colours are {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah the the the front w
Marketing: I think we can launch a couple of packages . You can buy a different kind of of of machine ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: but it's the same thing , but with another front .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: We can also uh implement um we can also implement fronts from um movies that are very hot .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah that's the whole idea of the front .
Marketing: And you can you can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: Uh those kind of things .
Marketing: Yeah right .
User Interface: But that's for later on . The fronts y you can do anything with them .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah but if you if you launch uh five different packages like iPod mini {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , right {disfmarker} For the uh initiative uh launch .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: For the for the launch , yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: It's good marketing .
Project Manager: Launch different lines at once .
Industrial Designer: So e th then a c couple of basic colours . Not not very uh {vocalsound} sim Not {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , n not too heavy . You can always take another pick . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: We should not give them the m the most lovely front when they buy it for the first time .
Marketing: {vocalsound} They have to buy it later on .
User Interface: Oh yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah right .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Come on . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} More basic .
Project Manager: We still have to make those fifty million , yeah ? {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Very boring , yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well you can you can give them uh s s three or so ,
Industrial Designer: The most boring fronts possible .
Project Manager: The most ugly .
User Interface: so that they can uh experiment with it and that they want more .
Marketing: Yeah , right .
Project Manager: Two .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but you you can have some basic colours , and then we come with the special patterns on them ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Red red , blue and green you give them or something ,
Industrial Designer: and and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: and then you can give them {gap} uh other ones .
Industrial Designer: And uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Alright . Um well the buttons etcetera , we get from Mike . Uh this fruit and bright colours , yeah well I think we'll have to in the next uh half an hour , we'll have to uh s s specify the different uh types we want to launch , when we uh {vocalsound} well introduce our remote .
Industrial Designer: Uh we still have to make {disfmarker} We have still have to make the es the the real basic design . {vocalsound} Because yeah we have the sketch but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . But we we must remember that {vocalsound} fancy look-and-feel is the most important thing .
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: Else it w won't sell .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Alright , yeah .
Project Manager: Well I'll have to , before I get another warning for five minutes , I'm going to get {disfmarker} Where is my mouse ? Uh where is my mouse ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Lost my mouse . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um this is it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Unbelievable . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , um this we have .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh basic stuff . Interface we have . Supplements , L_C_D_ . Maybe a a cheap voice recording . Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah we should do that .
Industrial Designer: The price ?
Project Manager: Yes . Alright . Individual actions .
Industrial Designer: We all agree on that . Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Industry designer , {gap} . User Interface , Mike . You're going to work together on a prototype drawing on the SMARTboard .
User Interface: Yeah , we can do that .
Industrial Designer: Together or uh {disfmarker} Yeah together .
Marketing: Yeah togeth {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's what I got uh to hear .
Industrial Designer: How {disfmarker} Yeah yeah , but how do I {disfmarker}
User Interface: But bu we stay we stay here or something ?
Project Manager: Yes well we'll get it to hear that I think .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But I think so . Th they're saying SMARTboard and that's it {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You can take the SMARTboard . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is the SMARTboard , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Ah right . {vocalsound} And take it to our rooms and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um so you can uh you you are going to make a prototype , and y Well that's includes uh specifying the buttons etcetera .
User Interface: Ah , specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . So you'll get it on your em on your laptop . Um well you will go and do something else uh on the project {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Some {disfmarker} Some non functional tasks .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Have fun {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: yeah project evaluation . So um {disfmarker}
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: {gap} , what are you going to do ? Uh I don't know what product evaluation exactly means , but uh you'll get uh the specifications .
Marketing: We don't have produ product yet ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: so kind of difficult . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's why I uh {disfmarker} But uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You're fired . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: How long do we still have ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well , can we talk about something else ? Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . {gap}
Industrial Designer: Uh no I don't know anything , but maybe uh anyone else uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} Ajax . Nah .
User Interface: Yeah . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah ?
User Interface: Will we use uh round buttons or square ones for the for the numbers ?
Industrial Designer: Round I think .
Marketing: Um round .
User Interface: Yeah I I I also uh thought {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Round .
Industrial Designer: To make it as uh as round as possible .
User Interface: And these uh these s these buttons {vocalsound} uh are more uh triangle-ish shaped
Project Manager: Why does {disfmarker}
Marketing: Curvy . Yeah .
User Interface: with a square one in the middle .
Marketing: So you can see you have to up or down .
Project Manager: Ah f fuck you .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But now I see the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: And this must be uh volume I think ,
Project Manager: Heh ?
Marketing: and this programme .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} We can't get {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well most of the time uh up and down is programme and left and right are volume , I think .
Industrial Designer: Well th th th th th that depends uh .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , it depends , but {disfmarker} If you turn up the volume , you always see this thingy go up . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well we uh {disfmarker} We we j we'll just give them an uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , that's right .
Industrial Designer: We'll design it ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and then they can give comments on it .
Project Manager: Ts
User Interface: Yeah alright .
Marketing: Yeah . Okay .
Project Manager: It doesn't work any more . We can't save them . So we'll just have them uh standing there .
Marketing: Yeah , I noticed . You can't uh click the corners .
Project Manager: No . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's a bit uh bit a pity .
Marketing: It's a real real great thing .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well we still have uh more than five minutes . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {vocalsound} what are we going to do ? {vocalsound} I as Project Manager ha don't have a clue . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Let's start the design .
Project Manager: Oh we can uh decide how we implement {vocalsound} the feeling from our company into the remote .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Well yeah . Um I think um {vocalsound} a logo , our company logo , and the slogan should be or could be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Also the slogan ? On the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , why not ? {vocalsound} If there's enough space , {vocalsound} you can put uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh I I'd say only the logo .
Industrial Designer: We'll we'll {disfmarker}
Marketing: O Yeah . Me too .
User Interface: Too much text and it gets too too busy .
Industrial Designer: Well , our slogan is not very long . It's just a simple {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We put the fashion in electronics .
User Interface: Well {vocalsound} it's quite a long phrase .
Industrial Designer: What is it ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We put the fashion in electronics .
Marketing: But we kree we keep adjusting to the fashion with our fronts . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You c {vocalsound} But you can put it on the back , on the titanium part . The logo and the and the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Ah the logo should be on the top I think .
Marketing: Yeah , right . The logo {disfmarker}
Project Manager: On the top . Yeah . Well in in in the right top corner ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah they do . Well yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Right corner , yes .
Project Manager: And well you c On the back , you can put uh h {vocalsound} At the bottom , you can put the logo with the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Right corner , or maybe here in the middle ?
User Interface: {gap} uh the text ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Just just small .
User Interface: Uh yeah , at the back ?
Marketing: But the logo the logo shouldn't be exchangeable , when you get off the front .
User Interface: Well you c Well uh {disfmarker} Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah it it should be hard on the on the on the board ,
Project Manager: Yeah well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: You can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and you can remove the front .
User Interface: The logo can be on on every uh front .
Marketing: Yeah ,
User Interface: Yeah , but then you must uh really uh yeah {vocalsound} push it in or something .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Carved into the material . {vocalsound} No , you you can carve it into the titanium at the back .
Industrial Designer: I l I like the idea of the of the slogan on the on the on the thing .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But {vocalsound} am I the only one , or uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , on the backside .
Project Manager: Well , management would like it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well n n not not on the front side , I think .
Project Manager: The front side , no no l no slogan .
Industrial Designer: No not on the front ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} On the back {disfmarker} Yes , you you can , yeah , push that in ,
Industrial Designer: but on the backside . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Sorry .
User Interface: {vocalsound} so that it is always be there .
Industrial Designer: I think it's a nice idea , {vocalsound} to make it more recognisable , that the next to the logo you have the slogan .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I agree .
Industrial Designer: To make more uh of an impression .
Marketing: But not too big .
Industrial Designer: Not too big . No ,
Marketing: Just uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: very small . Not {vocalsound} on the entire back , but uh just very small .
Marketing: {vocalsound} You have to make this titanium too .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But readable enough of course .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Yes , slogan from company on the back with logo
Industrial Designer: But we'll uh we'll take that uh with us into the design .
User Interface: Yeah I think over here the logo . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Lo Uh yeah . Or maybe here in the middle , but we'll decide later .
Project Manager: and logo also on the front but not exchange uh {disfmarker} Uh ? Hmm ? {vocalsound} {gap} Uh when changing fronts .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright , that's decided .
Industrial Designer: Do you do you see a bit of the of the um of the uh titanium ? O on the front ?
Project Manager: Five minutes left .
Industrial Designer: Uh maybe if we make this this this lower part titanium ,
User Interface: Yes we could {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} the front is the the upper part , and the the bit with the with the L_C_D_ screen . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So a bit of titanium between ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . No no betwe
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: That's a bit {disfmarker} Oh that that's that's pretty cool .
Industrial Designer: of between we can do but {disfmarker} But then you have two parts of front , two fronts that {disfmarker}
User Interface: No , they have two fronts ,
Marketing: No no no no .
User Interface: that . You you can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No ?
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: This enti entire bottom ?
Marketing: Else you you get problems with the L_C_D_ . Like dust in it and so things like that .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: When you exchange all the fronts and it's open .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I already have uh all kinds of uh filth between the mobile .
User Interface: No , you can you can just {disfmarker} And then not a straight line but uh some sort of wave or something .
Marketing: you can make it go round this corner too where the logo is . Because it has to be uh there all the time you know .
Industrial Designer: And then the lower part is titanium ?
User Interface: This is titanium . And this is uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think that's nice , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Some some kind of wei weight in it . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Round forms .
User Interface: F front .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I like that bit of uh titanium also on the uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . With the with the curved edge .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: A bit like uh a bit like your mobile phone .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Maybe you can show it . It also has the those {vocalsound} two distinct uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Tada .
Industrial Designer: Mm bit like this .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh it's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah ,
Project Manager: What ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Ah .
Industrial Designer: That uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So round where ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Maybe a nice touch , yeah .
Marketing: So uh a little corner of titanium . We can't uh take a blank one .
User Interface: Yeah , that's nice finishing touch you need .
Project Manager: Oh , yeah .
Marketing: Or can we ?
Project Manager: Yes , {gap} that also sounds uh pretty uh neat .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: So this this is the exchangeable part .
Industrial Designer: I think I'm going to buy it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We want it .
User Interface: Yeah , this is the front .
Project Manager: And it's only f twenty five Euros .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Come on .
Industrial Designer: That's a bit too much , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No that's nothing .
Industrial Designer: No , no no no , but {vocalsound} I think uh this looks uh pretty nice actually .
Project Manager: The Phillips remote uh costs more . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Of course , because it's my design but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: My design . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No our d our design , alright .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Taking all the credit . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well uh you two are going to work together . You'll get your uh specifications on your uh laptop , and then uh {vocalsound} you uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . We'll stay here I guess ?
Marketing: But there's a problem .
Project Manager: Well I think we can , I just {gap} {disfmarker} It's {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's not relaxing .
User Interface: Well we can uh erase an animal I guess . Uh the fourth one .
Marketing: Yeah . Nah that's alright , that's alright .
Industrial Designer: But don't erase my cat .
Project Manager: Yeah , o
User Interface: Uh the fourth one is empty , isn't it ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I want to preserve it .
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: {gap} This one is empty .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You have to empty one huh ?
Project Manager: Oh , we have a {gap} one . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: What are you doing chief ?
Project Manager: So , you can uh draw a {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Alright .
User Interface: Yeah I think we have to wait ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Project Manager: Well I'll get a {disfmarker} I'll get the message .
Industrial Designer: until the until the beep goes .
Marketing: No {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But I don't uh {disfmarker} Do we have to stay here ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No , I think uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: or I think we have to return first .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well you'll {disfmarker} Maybe you can uh keep your uh laptop here . {gap}
User Interface: Maybe .
Project Manager: Or get your mouse . Because it's little bit uh hard to work with these uh plates .
Industrial Designer: The high powers from above {vocalsound} will have to tell us , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I always have a mouse next to my laptop .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Dream on . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I hate these {disfmarker}
Marketing: I I don't have a laptop .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , touch-pads , yeah .
Project Manager: Ugh .
Industrial Designer: We can uh do a touch-pad on our remote .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah right .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No just kidding . Well we have uh b you have to have a bit of humour in the in the discussions too ,
Marketing: You just have to push harder .
Industrial Designer: because it becomes too too too too stressy .
Project Manager: And in your remote control . So we put a touch pad on it , and say ha ha .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Aha . This has no function . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Half
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We know you'll you'll you'll hate it but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But uh th youth doesn't care about functio functionality , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: But they do want some gadgets . So that's wha what we're doing .
Marketing: It's all about cool things .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: And it will sell .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: We will be rich .
Industrial Designer: Bless you . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well we won't . Our bosses will be rich .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: We've done too much in the previous meetings .
Industrial Designer: Too much ?
User Interface: Yes , we've got nothing to do now . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , that's not bad , is it ?
Industrial Designer: Well they uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: I think that's good . We all had uh our talk and we agree I guess on uh several thing , on most uh on things .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Its the best remote ever .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Pinball .
Project Manager: Oh {gap} . Oh he's totally off again . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: No man .
Industrial Designer: Yeah you have to push harder . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But when I start here , it's here .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: So is it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes , but you you get really close to the screen with your hand ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and I don't think that's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: Nope .
Marketing: Recalibrate it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Where's the good old chalk board with the the green board with the , how do you call it , chalk , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: We can better uh draw a design on this . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , maybe .
User Interface: Yeah , but we can't .
Industrial Designer: Maybe if i if that thing is recalibrated , we can draw a thing quick , and then before it uh {vocalsound} goes off again .
Project Manager: Yeah . Let's go .
User Interface: Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Finish meeting now .
Project Manager: Finish the meeting now . Alright now we know what to do , so
User Interface: We'll stay here ?
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Oh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Message ?
User Interface: Or we'll get the email .
Industrial Designer: Maybe w maybe we maybe w m Can we get email here ?
Project Manager: No , get away . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Huh ? Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Guess so .
Project Manager: Um I I'm not sure . Maybe you {disfmarker} Yeah . Well you'll have to work on this one .
User Interface: Well we'll wait a few seconds
Project Manager: Yeah . That's a good idea .
User Interface: and then we'll get an email .
Marketing: Alright . Have fun lads .
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} A happy hol happy holidays . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Good luck . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} but you can scratch it off or something . It's better if you have it uh {disfmarker}
| |
doc_73
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Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh welcome back after lunch , I hope uh you had a good lunch together . For uh this meeting the main agenda okay uh to discuss about the conceptual design meeting . Okay and the agenda will be the opening and uh {disfmarker} that's uh {disfmarker} the product manager or secretary that's me and uh the presentations from the Christine and uh Agnes and from Mister Ed . And finally in this meeting we have to decide
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and we are to take a decision on the remote control concept and uh the functional design So we have forty minutes , I think it's uh little bit uh low , but I I hope we can finish it up {vocalsound} so I'll handle to the the functional team , to the Christine , okay , to discuss about uh the components concept .
Industrial Designer: Okay . So uh , if you could open the PowerPoint presentation .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'm number two .
Project Manager: You're number two . 'Kay
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Components design , there we go .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So uh can we put it in slide show mode ? Yeah .
Project Manager: The next one .
Industrial Designer: Right here , is that little {disfmarker} that one , yes please .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'll take the mouse . {vocalsound} So uh
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: we were looking he specifically at the components uh {disfmarker} the following components , uh the case , the power supply , uh the means of communications with the television set . In instance we had talked about using some sort of speech recognition ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: you have to have microphone {disfmarker} well no you don't actually I haven't {disfmarker} have to have microphone in the device , but um maybe you do have it a a way {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it has to it has to hear the speaker
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and um , so it could be in the television set , could be in the device , but somewhere you have to put the microphone , um and a w a way of making beeps or sounds so you can find it when it's gets lost . Um so the other w thing that we {disfmarker} So . Our method for going about this is we've looked at uh the histo hi historical record , what's worked , what hasn't and then we also um {disfmarker} we wanted to evaluate some new materials
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and we contacted manufacturing for their input because , course , we m might {vocalsound} come up and choose the material that then manufacturing didn't have the technologies or capabilities to offer us , so uh this is the approach that we took during our um {disfmarker} our research .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So um for the case , um we told we were making a specifica specific assumption that it would be curved in design .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Course , you know , I wanted it to be expandable and shrinkable , but um that uh doesn't seem to b be one of the choic non-option we can uh {disfmarker} we can really seriously explore ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} so then we were thinking about um rubber , but um unfortunately that's been eliminated because of the heat uh factor
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and th um there might be some {vocalsound} problems with the m uh how it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh goes with the board . {vocalsound} Uh and uh then th plastic also has this problem of melting and it's brittle {disfmarker} it gets brittle after a while ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so um we still had titanium and and wood available , but um unfortunately uh uh titanium's also been eliminated uh ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: the m people in manufacturing said that you couldn't make d curved cases out of titanium , although how {vocalsound} Apple did it with th PowerBook I'm not su quite sure but uh nevertheless um they've eliminated all of our options except wood .
User Interface: {vocalsound} At least it's environmentally friendly . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So , {vocalsound} this is our finding .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And a as she said , it's an environmentally friendly uh material , so we're {disfmarker} we're {vocalsound} currently uh proposing ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: uh we'll get to all my personal preferences in just a second .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So then there's this other matter of the chips and um well we could use a simple design on the board ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} uh these simple chips , but that's only works for the bu you don't get very much um intelligence with this simple one . And um then there was the regular which {vocalsound} I regret that I've forgotten exactly why I'm eliminating that one . Uh the other option was this advanced chip on print , {vocalsound} and uh we liked th we we found that it it includes this infrared sender ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: which w 'member the beam was {disfmarker} that was an important component of finding the right chip .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And uh manufacturing has told us that they've um uh recently developed a uh a sensor and a speaker that would uh be integrated into this advanced chip on print , so uh we we uh now jumping right to our personal preferences um I I'd really think we should , you know , use some of uh some really exotic woods , like um ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: you know uh , well you guys come from tropical countries so you can kinda think of some trees and some nice woods . I think that people will might really want to design their own cases , you see , they could do sort of a {disfmarker} this um three-dimensional design on the internet , and then they could submit their orders , kinda like you submit a custom car order , you know , and you can choose the colour and the size of the wheels and the colours of the leather and things like that , and then I uh think we should go with the solar cells as well as the um microphone and speaker on the advanced chip . So this is the findings of our research
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and my recommendations um for the new remote control w um would be to have um have it be made out of wood . Do you have any problems with that ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Can you go back uh one slide ?
Industrial Designer: I'm not sure , how do I {disfmarker} Oh , I know , let's see .
User Interface: Thank you . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Let's go back up here .
Project Manager: Yes , uh {gap} question , uh , what's mean exactly , advanced chip on print ? What's the meaning of that ?
Industrial Designer: I think it's um um a multiple uh chip design um {vocalsound} and it's uh maybe printed on to the circuit board .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh I could find out more about that uh before the next fi next meeting .
Project Manager: Yeah , is it means it's on the {disfmarker} yeah is it on a micro-proc micro-processor based or uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I don't know , but I'll find out more at our next meeting .
Project Manager: Okay , tha that would be great , so if you find out from the technology background , okay , so that would be good .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Sounds good .
User Interface: Why was the plastic eliminated as a possible material ?
Industrial Designer: Because um it gets brittle , cracks {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um We want {disfmarker} we expect these um {vocalsound} uh these remote controls to be around for several hundred years . So . {vocalsound} Good ex {vocalsound} {gap} Good expression . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Whic
Marketing: Wow ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Which {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} good expression . Well after us . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't know , speak for yourself , I'm planning to be around for a while . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Although I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think with wood though you'd run into the same types of problems , wouldn't you , I mean it chips , it if you drop it ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: uh it's {disfmarker} I'm not su {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {gap} so you're not convinced about the the wood , yes .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} you're what ?
Marketing: Actually , I'm ready to sell it .
User Interface: I think {vocalsound} if you re if you use really good quality wood , then it might work ,
Marketing: I'm ready to sell it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You think ? {vocalsound} And you could {disfmarker} you could sell oils with it , to take care of it .
User Interface: but you can't just use {disfmarker}
Marketing: No y {vocalsound} no no no , the o the only w the only wood you can use are the ones that are hard , extremely hard wood ,
User Interface: Yeah , exactly , yeah .
Marketing: but there are some very pretty woods out there {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well I'm glad you {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's actually very innovative idea .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay , good .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sorr having a hard time keeping wi control over my face . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well , it's actually a very innovative n different idea that uh you know you can choose your colour of wood , your type of wood .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: The stain .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I mean it's {disfmarker} each person is gonna have their own personalised , individualised speech recognition remote control in wood , that's not on the market .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , so it it's looks good the the design the functional design uh , what about yo you ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um , in terms of comments on this or in terms of my own {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes , in t yes , in term in terms of comments first {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} In turns of wow . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: She works in the cubicle next to me so she's uh she was already a little bit prepared for this {vocalsound} .
User Interface: Y yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Luckily Ed was not . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Wood ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think we can get the quality materials then {vocalsound} it shouldn't influence the design principles too much , which you'll see with my presentation .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: One thing we'd have to check though is what the users {disfmarker} whether {disfmarker} how quickly the novelty wears off of having uh {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm . Yeah , you wouldn't wanna have to have splinters in your hand while you're using your {disfmarker}
User Interface: {disfmarker} Yeah , for example . {vocalsound} So , have to see how kid-friendly it is and and all that ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's really good if your dog gets ahold of it , they can use it {vocalsound} {gap} for teething .
User Interface: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: They do that anyway with the rubber and plastic ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , they do it with other materials as well , yeah .
Marketing: so {vocalsound} , and chew 'em up . And chew 'em up .
Project Manager: Okay then , uh , let's move to Agnes .
User Interface: Sure .
Industrial Designer: Oh , I'm sorry .
Project Manager: S you're {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You are in participant three .
User Interface: One point three , yeah
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh , yeah .
Project Manager: This one ?
User Interface: I think so , yeah . Yeah , that's the one . So , it's a very short presentation , 'cause I'm actually gonna draw you the layout on the board so if you want to just go straight to the second slide , um , which basically shows , sort of {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I took the ideas that we were talking about last time um and tried to put that into the remote control so the things that y you can actually see on it are the on off switch , volume and channel control , the menu access button , ergonomic shape , which I completely agree with Christine's idea to have it sort of molded , so it's slightly more ergonomic and comfortable to hold than the r standard very straight remote controls . And actually the other thing with the wood if we take your customising idea , is that people can actually do sort of quasi-measurements on their hand size , so if someone has larger hands , you have a wider remote control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right , my hand is uh different size than yours for example .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So , that's actually a really good idea for customi customisability . Um , one thing I thought might be kind of interesting is to put a flip screen on it , just like you have on flip phones ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so that you don't have this case where someone sits on the remote control or accidentally puts their hand on it , especially if you have little kids around , they're not pressing the buttons while you're trying to watch a T_V_ show and accidentally change the channel or turn it off .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And also {vocalsound} um you had issues with the batteries running out ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so I thought maybe we could put a little battery life-light on it that kind of goes dimmer and dimmer and dimmer as your battery is {disfmarker} starts to die . And in terms of invisible features , audio and um tactile feedback on button presses and , like you said , speech recognition .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So , in terms of what this thing would actually look like {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Despite working in interface design , I'm not the greatest artist in the world , so you'll have to forgive me . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} You'd have something like this with an on-off switch fairly big , sort of in the corner and by itself , so you don't accidentally turn your T_V_ off while you're trying to manoeuvre other buttons . And then you have sort of one of those toggle displays for , oops , channels and volume , sort of for surfing channels and then volume , so the volume would be the up and down , 'cause volume goes up and down and then channels left to right . And then here you'd have your sort of standard , telephonish number pad . {vocalsound} And then on one side you would have an access to the menu on your T_V_
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and on the other side a way to turn off the voice control . So that if the user doesn't want to use their voice , they can just turn it off and you don't have the remote control accidentally changing things on you .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um , so again you can have a little L_C_D_ light somewhere , the flip {vocalsound} thing and {disfmarker} Have I forgotten anything ? I don't think so . So , as you can see , it's a very very simple design ,
Marketing: No . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: which is one of the things I really wanted to keep , is keep it simple , not have too many buttons , not have too many functionalities thrown into it . Think the design can pretty much carry over to everything , although with the wood the flip screen might have to do something slightly different .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: A hinge . Be like a copper hinge or you know .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . But you also have to d start watching out for the weight , 'cause depending on how much the the flip screen will add to the weight of the remote control , you don't want it to start getting too heavy .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Mm .
User Interface: But that's the general layout with the general functionalities , if we come up with something else . As you can see , there's still lots of space on the actual remote control and if you do it customisably , {vocalsound} you can make this thing fairly small or fairly o large , depending on personal preferences .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: So , that's pretty much {vocalsound} all I had to say , I mean , everything else in terms of design issues . Um the centering of the key pad and {vocalsound} the channel is just depending on where your thumb is and you tend to use the the volume control and uh the browsing more than the actual number pad , so that would be sort of in direct line of where your thumb goes when you are holding the remote control ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
User Interface: the number pad a little bit lower 'cause it's used less frequently .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So once we decide exactly what we want , then we can figure out the exact positioning , but more or less I think it should go along those lines .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So what's your , uh , the comments or uh s
Marketing: Simple design . It's what consumers want .
Project Manager: Okay
Marketing: It's almost like , Houston , we have a product here . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Problem is obviously gonna be cost .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay , I also have a f {vocalsound} very simple presentation ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: because for the marketing point you have to see what the consumers want .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I also have uh copied a different type of remote . If you can find me , where I'm at . {vocalsound} There should only be one in here . {gap} trend watch .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sure .
Marketing: It's being modified .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} They're stealing our product . {vocalsound} We've been giving simple {vocalsound} questionnaires in different areas because th {gap} obviously we have to see what the com consumers are looking for today , 'cause uh trends change very very quickly . In six months maybe this idea is already gone out the window , so it's gonna be a question how fast we can act . Uh they already erased the rest of mine , huh .
Industrial Designer: No ,
User Interface: No , no .
Industrial Designer: f go to findings .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No no , no no . {vocalsound} 'Cause I had another comment there . Uh the market trend . This is what we know from the last uh {disfmarker} from the {vocalsound} questionnaires from the the {disfmarker} all the p surveys we've done , fancy and feel-good , that's what we've been looking for , something that feels good in the hand , that's easy to use . Looking for next generation of innovation , because all the remotes out there now , they're all very similar , they all do the same thing ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: we have to have something completely different . Okay ? Easy to use , has always has become {disfmarker} has become another major interest that uh , with the whiteboard we can see that it's a remote that's easy to use . And I think this is another thing that's interesting is the consumers actually willing to pay the price for exciting tel technology . So even if we have a product that may be more expensive , if it comes out right , if they {gap} look {disfmarker} it looks and feels good and has technology . The second two , you can see the last one is a very easy simple design . {vocalsound} The second one , there is about uh forty-five thousand different buttons on it , which makes it fairly hard to read , uh very hard to use .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: The first one , I see {vocalsound} that they put in a display . Now there's something else uh with the little flip-up , now we're adding all kinds of things in ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: but with the little flip-up , if you have a little display on the flip-up that when you close it everything is locked .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Maybe the display also makes it easier to use , because sometimes when you're looking for buttons , maybe if you see a display {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Context-sensitive instructions , depending on what the tel what mode the T_V_ or the D_V_D_ or something else is in .
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay Because I've seen {disfmarker} mostly the standard ones ,
User Interface: Especially you might need something like that for training the speech recognition and
Marketing: yeah . Now you have it {disfmarker} now you have one with the very simple also . The idea is simple , but with a display , so you can see what you're doing .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So maybe if we can incorporate the easiness of use , trendy , fancy , feels good , {vocalsound} uh with a display , wood , designer wood , designer colours
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You know , maybe what you could do is when somebody orders the device id you could send them like um {vocalsound} a uh {vocalsound} uh b some sort of a foam rubber um ball ,
Marketing: , we might've {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh yeah .
Industrial Designer: and then they would squeeze it , and it would take the shape of their hand .
User Interface: Yeah , so it's really molded to to your specific {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} To t {vocalsound} an and then you would know like {vocalsound} um what the geometry of their hands would be and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: How hard they squeeze ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes {vocalsound} you'd know what kind of wood to get .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Resistance resistance , right . {vocalsound}
User Interface: But th for that you'd also have to do sort of an average across families and things like that if {disfmarker} unless everyone has their own personal remote .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's right , that's right , you wouldn't wanna go too far down that . Oh that {disfmarker} that actually would uh increase the um {disfmarker} the revenues we could expect , yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: The sales , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The {disfmarker} Yeah . I hope so .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No , but incorporating the three uh obviously it'd be something totally new on the market , totally different
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and from {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , already the customisability is a really good sort of new gimmick .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Although , what it {disfmarker} was it uh {disfmarker} it was uh Nokia that came out with this changeable colours .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Right , you take it apart , and put on another face , take it off and put on another face
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right , mm .
User Interface: And that took off , yeah , yeah .
Marketing: and then they sold millions , millions . So . So say with the f with the findings , with the research , easy to use something totally new .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: We have to come up with something totally new that is not on the market .
Industrial Designer: We'd also have to wor um consider that uh who we were gonna get to make these custom cases in terms of manufacturing processes , we might wanna um learn about um {vocalsound} labour laws .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You know in different countries and stuff wher so we can do it cheap , but you don't wanna exploit uh labour in um third world countries .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So actually you could turn it y turn around and say that you're uh par the reason the cost is high for the device is because um you're paying a a working wage to the person who made the device .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah , but we can get a production in , uh {vocalsound} , countries like , uh , India
Industrial Designer: Cost of living is low .
Project Manager: {disfmarker} yes , yes , countries like India or China or Malaysia , so you can go a better features and better price and you can sell more . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Good , well th that'd be something that manufacturing would have to um explore more
Project Manager: Yeah , {vocalsound} yeah , so Yes .
User Interface: Mm yeah .
Industrial Designer: and to where {disfmarker}
Marketing: Where w Where it would be manufactured is is another step .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Yeah , so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Marketing: We're here to design , come up with a nice product . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes uh , but uh that that we can that we can talk about the production later , okay , depends on the the quantity , okay .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So we don't need to have our own uh fabric factory or something ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: so we can have a tie-up with who the do the fabric , okay , for the different uh electronics items , then we can have a business tie-up and to get {disfmarker} to cut the cost , okay , to sell more . So , but uh le let's decide first about the components concept and uh interface concept , okay , if is acceptable for both of you , what uh Ed was talking . And your design {vocalsound} whether you want with the display or without display or just a simple , so
User Interface: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} I think it depends , I mean I think it's a good idea , but we need to really think about how useful it's gonna be because theoretically with the T_V_ you already have a big display {vocalsound} right in front of you .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: So , if we're trying to keep costs down , then maybe sacrificing the display is a way to go .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: I mean it depends on how much putting a display costs and what it would be used for {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: very specifically what it would be used for ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: 'cause if it's only used for one little thing , then putting in a big display case or a big display that's probably expensive just to do the training on the chip for the speech recognition or whatever , may not be the most cost-efficient way to go ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but that's just sort of speculation , I mean .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} What do you think Ed ? Do you {disfmarker} he liked the display in one of the concepts that you showed , um , do you know how much it costs , um , to to add a little display like this uh ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} No . No
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Do you wanna take an action item to go find out ?
Marketing: {gap} no p spec {vocalsound} It's 'cause we have to find out cost on it .
Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound} Sorry about that .
Marketing: Um , no that's no problem . I'm here for the {vocalsound} pushing it after it's made . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: I will market it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Once we get a price on it then we can market it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So the {vocalsound} the advanced chip on print is what um what we've {vocalsound} we've deci we've determined
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and the uh engineering industrial design is the recommendation , and um I think we've kinda come to some agreement regarding um this concept of a wooden case .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: A customisable and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Nice beautiful mahogany red wooden case . {vocalsound}
User Interface: What about the buttons , would {disfmarker} Would the buttons be wood too , or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh I don't think so , no ,
Project Manager: I don't think so .
Industrial Designer: I think they could be rubber like they are now ,
Project Manager: Yes . Yes .
Industrial Designer: so you have that tactile experience of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Don't looks nice uh . Yeah , so uh what we'll do is , uh , we will stick with the the simple design for time being until uh th Ed find outs about the how much it's cost to the extra , in case we go for the display . Okay . So
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: maybe what you can do is uh , both of you , you can come up with the the prototype , okay , the model .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay ?
User Interface: Sure .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So um are we done with this meeting ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , I hope , if {disfmarker} is it okay if uh they will come up with the prototype design , okay . Then they can show you how it looks like , and then we can uh submit to the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I will submit to the management . Okay ? Then meantime you can come up with the price , how much it's cost as extra for uh the display .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: An and the marketing strategy , that's very important , okay .
Industrial Designer: And a marketing strategy .
Marketing: And marketing strategy , thank you .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes . How much you can {disfmarker}
Marketing: Fired . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: how mu how much how much you can sell extra .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Of course you'll make money too ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so it it's not only pay-out , you make money too , your commission .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , so , any questions ?
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: So , by next meeting , so , please come up with the the prototype , okay , then uh , then we can proceed from there .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: It's okay ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So thanks for all your uh efforts and coming for the meeting again , and see you soon then . Okay ?
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Thank you .
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PhD A: Alright . We 're on .
Professor B: Test , um . Test , test , test . Guess that 's me . Yeah . OK .
Grad D: Ooh , Thursday .
Professor B: So . There 's two sheets of paper in front of us .
PhD A: What are these ?
PhD E: Yeah . So .
Professor B: This is the arm wrestling ?
PhD C: Uh . Yeah , we formed a coalition actually .
PhD E: Yeah . Almost .
PhD C: We already made it into one .
Professor B: Oh , good .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Excellent .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: That 's the best thing .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , tell me about it .
PhD E: So it 's {disfmarker} well , it 's {pause} spectral subtraction or Wiener filtering , um , depending on if we put {disfmarker} if we square the transfer function or not .
Professor B: Right .
PhD E: And then with over - estimation of the noise , depending on the , uh {disfmarker} the SNR , with smoothing along time , um , smoothing along frequency .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: It 's very simple , smoothing things .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: And , um , {vocalsound} the best result is {vocalsound} when we apply this procedure on FFT bins , uh , with a Wiener filter .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: And there is no noise addition after {disfmarker} after that .
Professor B: OK .
PhD E: So it 's good because {vocalsound} {vocalsound} it 's difficult when we have to add noise to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to find the right level .
Professor B: OK .
PhD A: Are you looking at one in {disfmarker} in particular of these two ?
PhD E: Yeah . So the sh it 's the sheet that gives fifty - f three point sixty - six .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Um , {vocalsound} the second sheet is abo uh , about the same . It 's the same , um , idea but it 's working on mel bands , {vocalsound} and it 's a spectral subtraction instead of Wiener filter , and there is also a noise addition after , uh , cleaning up the mel bins . Mmm . Well , the results are similar .
Professor B: Yeah . I mean , {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} {comment} it 's actually , uh , very similar .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I mean , {vocalsound} if you look at databases , uh , the , uh , one that has the smallest {disfmarker} smaller overall number is actually better on the Finnish and Spanish , uh , but it is , uh , worse on the , uh , Aurora {disfmarker}
PhD E: It 's worse on {disfmarker}
Professor B: I mean on the , uh , TI - TI - digits ,
PhD E: on the multi - condition in TI - digits . Yeah .
Professor B: uh , uh . Um .
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor B: So , it probably doesn't matter that much either way . But , um , when you say u uh , unified do you mean , uh , it 's one piece of software now , or {disfmarker} ?
PhD E: So now we are , yeah , setting up the software .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Um , it should be ready , uh , very soon . Um , and we
PhD A: So what 's {disfmarker} what 's happened ? I think I 've missed something .
Professor B: OK . So a week ago {disfmarker} maybe you weren't around when {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when Hynek and Guenther and I {disfmarker} ?
PhD C: Hynek was here .
PhD A: Yeah . I didn't .
Professor B: Oh , OK . So {disfmarker} Yeah , let 's summarize . Um {disfmarker} And then if I summarize somebody can tell me if I 'm wrong , which will also be possibly helpful . What did I just press here ? I hope this is still working .
PhD E: p - p - p
Professor B: We , uh {disfmarker} we looked at , {nonvocalsound} uh {disfmarker} anyway we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} after coming back from QualComm we had , you know , very strong feedback and , uh , I think it was {vocalsound} Hynek and Guenter 's and my opinion also that , um , you know , we sort of spread out to look at a number of different ways of doing noise suppression . But given the limited time , uh , it was sort of time to {pause} choose one .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Mmm .
Professor B: Uh , and so , uh , th the vector Taylor series hadn't really worked out that much . Uh , the subspace stuff , uh , had not been worked with so much . Um , so it sort of came down to spectral subtraction versus Wiener filtering .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor B: Uh , we had a long discussion about how they were the same and how they were d uh , completely different .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And , uh , I mean , fundamentally they 're the same sort of thing but the math is a little different so that there 's a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} there 's an exponent difference in the index {disfmarker} you know , what 's the ideal filtering , and depending on how you construct the problem .
PhD A: Uh - huh .
Professor B: And , uh , I guess it 's sort {disfmarker} you know , after {disfmarker} after that meeting it sort of made more sense to me because {vocalsound} um , if you 're dealing with power spectra then how are you gonna choose your error ? And typically you 'll do {disfmarker} choose something like a variance . And so that means it 'll be something like the square of the power spectra . Whereas when you 're {disfmarker} when you 're doing the {disfmarker} the , uh , um , {vocalsound} looking at it the other way , you 're gonna be dealing with signals
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and you 're gonna end up looking at power {disfmarker} uh , noise power that you 're trying to reduce . And so , eh {disfmarker} so there should be a difference {vocalsound} of {disfmarker} you know , conceptually of {disfmarker} of , uh , a factor of two in the exponent .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But there 're so many different little factors that you adjust in terms of {disfmarker} of , uh , {vocalsound} uh , over - subtraction and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and so forth , um , that {vocalsound} arguably , you 're c and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and the choice of do you {disfmarker} do you operate on the mel bands or do you operate on the FFT beforehand . There 're so many other choices to make that are {disfmarker} are almost {disfmarker} well , if not independent , certainly in addition to {pause} the choice of whether you , uh , do spectral subtraction or Wiener filtering , that , um , {vocalsound} @ @ again we sort of felt the gang should just sort of figure out which it is they wanna do and then let 's pick it , go forward with it . So that 's {disfmarker} that was {disfmarker} that was last week . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and , uh , we said , uh , take a week , go arm wrestle , you know ,
Grad D: Oh .
Professor B: figure it out . I mean , and th the joke there was that each of them had specialized in one of them .
PhD A: Oh , OK .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} and so they {disfmarker} so instead they went to Yosemite and bonded , and {disfmarker} and they came out with a single {disfmarker} single piece of software . So it 's {vocalsound} another {disfmarker} another victory for international collaboration . So .
PhD A: So {disfmarker} so you guys have combined {disfmarker} or you 're going to be combining the software ?
Professor B: Uh .
PhD C: Well , the piece of software has , like , plenty of options ,
PhD E: Oh boy .
PhD C: like you can parse command - line arguments . So depending on that , it {disfmarker} it becomes either spectral subtraction or Wiener filtering .
PhD A: Oh , OK .
PhD C: So , ye
PhD A: They 're close enough .
Professor B: Well , that 's fine , but the thing is {disfmarker} the important thing is that there is a piece of software that you {disfmarker} that we all will be using now .
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor B: Yes .
PhD C: There 's just one piece of software .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: I need to allow it to do everything and even more {disfmarker} more than this .
PhD C: Right .
PhD E: Well , if we want to , like , optimize different parameters of {disfmarker}
PhD C: Parameters . Yeah .
Professor B: Sure .
PhD E: Yeah , we can do it later . But , still {disfmarker} so , there will be a piece of software with , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh , will give this system , the fifty - three point sixty - six , by default and {disfmarker}
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: How {disfmarker} how is {disfmarker} how good is that ?
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't have a sense of {disfmarker}
PhD E: It 's just one percent off of the {pause} best proposal .
PhD C: Best system .
PhD E: It 's between {disfmarker} i we are second actually if we take this system .
PhD A: OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: Right ?
PhD A: Compared to the last evaluation numbers ? Yeah .
Professor B: But , uh {disfmarker} w which we sort of were before
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor B: but we were considerably far behind . And the thing is , this doesn't have neural net in yet for instance . You know ?
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor B: So it {disfmarker} so , um , it 's {disfmarker} it it 's not using our full bal bag of tricks , if you will .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And , uh , and it {disfmarker} it is , uh , very close in performance to the best thing that was there before . Uh , but , you know , looking at it another way , maybe more importantly , uh , {vocalsound} we didn't have any explicit noise , uh , handling {disfmarker} stationary {disfmarker} dealing with {disfmarker} e e we didn't explicitly have anything to deal with stationary noise .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And now we do .
PhD A: So will the {pause} neural net operate on the output from either the Wiener filtering or the spectral subtraction ? Or will it operate on the original ?
Professor B: Well , so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so argu arguably , I mean , what we should do {disfmarker} I mean , I gather you have {disfmarker} it sounds like you have a few more days of {disfmarker} of nailing things down with the software and so on . But {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} but , um , {vocalsound} arguably what we should do is , even though the software can do many things , we should for now pick a set of things , th these things I would guess , and not change that .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And then focus on {pause} everything that 's left . And I think , you know , that our goal should be by next week , when Hynek comes back , {vocalsound} uh , to {disfmarker} uh , really just to have a firm path , uh , for the {disfmarker} you know , for the time he 's gone , of {disfmarker} of , uh , what things will be attacked . But I would {disfmarker} I would {disfmarker} I would thought think that what we would wanna do is not futz with this stuff for a while because what 'll happen is we 'll change many other things in the system ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and then we 'll probably wanna come back to this and possibly make some other choices . But , um .
PhD A: But just conceptually , where does the neural net go ? Do {disfmarker} do you wanna h run it on the output of the spectrally subtracted {disfmarker} ?
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor B: Well , depending on its size {disfmarker} Well , one question is , is it on the , um , server side or is it on the terminal side ? Uh , if it 's on the server side , it {disfmarker} you probably don't have to worry too much about size .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So that 's kind of an argument for that . We do still , however , have to consider its latency . So the issue is {disfmarker} is , um , {vocalsound} for instance , could we have a neural net that only looked at the past ?
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: Um , what we 've done in uh {disfmarker} in the past is to use the neural net , uh , to transform , {vocalsound} um , all of the features that we use . So this is done early on . This is essentially , {vocalsound} um , um {disfmarker} I guess it 's {disfmarker} it 's more or less like a spee a speech enhancement technique here {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: right ? {disfmarker} where we 're just kind of creating {vocalsound} new {disfmarker} if not new speech at least new {disfmarker} new FFT 's that {disfmarker} that have {disfmarker} you know , which could be turned into speech {disfmarker} uh , that {disfmarker} that have some of the noise removed .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Um , after that we still do a mess of other things to {disfmarker} to produce a bunch of features .
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: And then those features are not now currently transformed {vocalsound} by the neural net . And then the {disfmarker} the way that we had it in our proposal - two before , we had the neural net transformed features and we had {vocalsound} the untransformed features , which I guess you {disfmarker} you actually did linearly transform with the KLT ,
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah . Right .
Professor B: but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} uh , to orthogonalize them {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but they were not , uh , processed through a neural net . And Stephane 's idea with that , as I recall , was that {vocalsound} you 'd have one part of the feature vector that was very discriminant and another part that wasn't ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: uh , which would smooth things a bit for those occasions when , uh , the testing set was quite different than what you 'd trained your discriminant features for . So , um , all of that is {disfmarker} is , uh {disfmarker} still seems like a good idea . The thing is now we know some other constraints . We can't have unlimited amounts of latency . Uh , y you know , that 's still being debated by the {disfmarker} by people in Europe but , {vocalsound} uh , no matter how they end up there , it 's not going to be unlimited amounts ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: so we have to be a little conscious of that . Um . So there 's the neural net issue . There 's the VAD issue . And , uh , there 's the second stream {pause} thing . And I think those that we {disfmarker} last time we agreed that those are the three things that have to get , uh , focused on .
PhD A: What was the issue with the VAD ?
Professor B: Well , better {comment} ones are good .
PhD A: And so the w the default , uh , boundaries that they provide are {disfmarker} they 're OK , but they 're not all that great ?
Professor B: I guess they still allow two hundred milliseconds on either side or some ? Is that what the deal is ?
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Uh , so th um , they keep two hundred milliseconds at the beginning and end of speech . And they keep all the {disfmarker}
PhD A: Outside the beginnings and end .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD A: Uh - huh .
PhD E: And all the speech pauses , which is {disfmarker} Sometimes on the SpeechDat - Car you have pauses that are more than one or two seconds .
PhD A: Wow .
PhD E: More than one second for sure . Um .
PhD A: Hmm .
PhD E: Yeah . And , yeah , it seems to us that this way of just dropping the beginning and end is not {disfmarker} We cou we can do better , I think ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: because , um , {vocalsound} with this way of dropping the frames they improve {pause} over the baseline by fourteen percent and {vocalsound} Sunil already showed that with our current VAD we can improve by more than twenty percent .
PhD A: On top of the VAD that they provide ?
PhD C: No .
PhD E: Just using either their VAD or our current VAD .
PhD C: Our way .
PhD A: Oh , OK .
PhD E: So , our current VAD is {disfmarker} is more than twenty percent , while their is fourteen .
PhD A: Theirs is fourteen ? I see .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD A: Huh .
PhD E: So . Yeah . And {pause} another thing that we did also is that we have all this training data for {disfmarker} let 's say , for SpeechDat - Car . We have channel zero which is clean , channel one which is far - field microphone . And if we just take only the , um , VAD probabilities computed on the clean signal and apply them on the far - field , uh , test utterances , {vocalsound} then results are much better .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: In some cases it divides the error rate by two .
PhD A: Wow .
PhD E: So it means that there are stim {comment} still {disfmarker}
PhD A: How {disfmarker} how much latency does the , uh {disfmarker} does our VAD add ?
PhD E: If {disfmarker} if we can have a good VAD , well , it would be great .
PhD A: Is it significant ,
PhD E: Uh , right now it 's , um , a neural net with nine frames .
PhD A: or {disfmarker} ?
PhD E: So it 's forty milliseconds plus , um , the rank ordering , which , uh , should be
PhD C: Like another ten frames .
PhD E: ten {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad D: Rank . Oh .
PhD E: So , right now it 's one hundred and forty {pause} milliseconds .
Professor B: With the rank ordering {disfmarker} ? I 'm sorry .
PhD C: The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the smoothing {disfmarker} the m the {disfmarker} the filtering of the probabilities .
PhD E: The {disfmarker} The , um {disfmarker}
PhD C: on the R .
PhD E: Yeah . It 's not a median filtering . It 's just {disfmarker} We don't take the median value . We take something {disfmarker} Um , so we have eleven , um , frames .
Professor B: Oh , this is for the VAD .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: And {disfmarker} for the VAD , yeah {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh , OK .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: and we take th the third .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad D: Dar
PhD E: Um .
Professor B: Yeah . Um . So {disfmarker} {comment} Yeah , I was just noticing on this that it makes reference to delay .
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor B: So what 's the {disfmarker} ? If you ignore {disfmarker} Um , the VAD is sort of in {disfmarker} in parallel , isn't i isn't it , with {disfmarker} with the {disfmarker} ? I mean , it isn't additive with the {disfmarker} the , uh , LDA and the Wiener filtering , and so forth .
PhD C: The LDA ?
Professor B: Right ?
PhD C: Yeah . So {disfmarker} so what happened right now , we removed the delay of the LDA .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: So we {disfmarker} I mean , if {disfmarker} so if we {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} so which is like if we reduce the delay of VA So , the f the final delay 's now ba is f determined by the delay of the VAD , because the LDA doesn't have any delay . So if we re if we reduce the delay of the VAD , I mean , it 's like effectively reducing the delay .
PhD A: How {disfmarker} how much , uh , delay was there on the LDA ?
PhD C: So the LDA and the VAD both had a hundred millisecond delay . So and they were in parallel , so which means you pick either one of them {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD C: the {disfmarker} the biggest , whatever .
PhD A: I see .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: So , right now the LDA delays are more .
Professor B: And there {disfmarker}
PhD A: Oh , OK .
Professor B: And there didn't seem to be any , uh , penalty for that ? There didn't seem to be any penalty for making it causal ?
PhD C: Pardon ? Oh , no . It actually made it , like , point one percent better or something , actually .
Professor B: OK . Well , may as well , then .
PhD C: Or something like that
Professor B: And he says Wiener filter is {disfmarker} is forty milliseconds delay .
PhD C: and {disfmarker}
Professor B: So is it {disfmarker} ?
PhD C: Yeah . So that 's the one which Stephane was discussing , like {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor B: The smoothing ?
PhD C: Yeah . The {disfmarker} you smooth it and then delay the decision by {disfmarker} So .
Professor B: Right . OK . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's really not {disfmarker} not bad . So we may in fact {disfmarker} we 'll see what they decide . We may in fact have , {vocalsound} um , the {disfmarker} the , uh , latency time available for {disfmarker} to have a neural net . I mean , sounds like we probably will . So .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: That 'd be good . Cuz I {disfmarker} cuz it certainly always helped us before . So .
PhD A: What amount of latency are you thinking about when you say that ?
Professor B: Uh . Well , they 're {disfmarker} you know , they 're disputing it .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor B: You know , they 're saying , uh {disfmarker} one group is saying a hundred and thirty milliseconds and another group is saying two hundred and fifty milliseconds . Two hundred and fifty is what it was before actually . So ,
PhD A: Oh .
Professor B: uh , some people are lobbying {disfmarker} lobbying {comment} to make it shorter .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor B: Um . And , um .
PhD A: Were you thinking of the two - fifty or the one - thirty when you said we should {pause} have enough for the neural net ?
Professor B: Well , it just {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} when we find that out it might change exactly how we do it , is all .
PhD A: Oh , OK .
Professor B: I mean , how much effort do we put into making it causal ? I mean , {vocalsound} I think the neural net will probably do better if it looks at a little bit of the future .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But , um , it will probably work to some extent to look only at the past . And we ha you know , limited machine and human time , and {vocalsound} effort . And , you know , how {disfmarker} how much time should we put into {disfmarker} into that ? So it 'd be helpful if we find out from the {disfmarker} the standards folks whether , you know , they 're gonna restrict that or not .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Um . But I think , you know , at this point our major concern is making the performance better and {disfmarker} and , um , {vocalsound} if , uh , something has to take a little longer in latency in order to do it that 's {pause} you know , a secondary issue .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But if we get told otherwise then , you know , we may have to c clamp down a bit more .
Grad D: Mmm .
PhD C: So , the one {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one difference is that {disfmarker} was there is like we tried computing the delta and then doing the frame - dropping .
Grad D: S
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: The earlier system was do the frame - dropping and then compute the delta on the {disfmarker}
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD C: So this {disfmarker}
PhD A: Which could be a kind of a funny delta . Right ?
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Oh , oh . So that 's fixed in this . Yeah , we talked about that .
PhD C: Yeah . So we have no delta . And then {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah . Uh - huh .
Professor B: Good .
PhD C: So the frame - dropping is the last thing that we do . So , yeah , what we do is we compute the silence probability , convert it to that binary flag ,
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD C: and then in the end you c up upsample it to {vocalsound} match the final features number of {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Did that help then ?
PhD C: It seems to be helping on the well - matched condition . So that 's why this improvement I got from the last result . So . And it actually r reduced a little bit on the high mismatch , so in the final weightage it 's b b better because the well - matched is still weighted more than {disfmarker}
Professor B: So , @ @ I mean , you were doing a lot of changes . Did you happen to notice how much , {vocalsound} uh , the change was due to just this frame - dropping problem ? What about this ?
PhD C: Uh , y you had something on it . Right ?
PhD E: Just the frame - dropping problem . Yeah . But it 's {disfmarker} it 's difficult . Sometime we {disfmarker} we change two {disfmarker} two things together and {disfmarker} But it 's around {pause} maybe {disfmarker} it 's less than one percent .
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: It {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well . {vocalsound} But like we 're saying , if there 's four or five things like that then {vocalsound} pretty sho soon you 're talking real improvement .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah . And it {disfmarker} Yeah . And then we have to be careful with that also {disfmarker} with the neural net
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: because in {comment} the proposal the neural net was also , uh , working on {disfmarker} after frame - dropping .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Um .
Professor B: Oh , that 's a real good point .
PhD E: So . Well , we 'll have to be {disfmarker} to do the same kind of correction .
Professor B: It might be hard if it 's at the server side . Right ?
PhD E: Mmm . Well , we can do the frame - dropping on the server side or we can just be careful at the terminal side to send a couple of more frames before and after , and {disfmarker} So . I think it 's OK .
Professor B: OK .
PhD A: You have , um {disfmarker} So when you {disfmarker} Uh , maybe I don't quite understand how this works , but , um , couldn't you just send all of the frames , but mark the ones that are supposed to be dropped ? Cuz you have a bunch more bandwidth . Right ?
Professor B: Well , you could . Yeah . I mean , it {disfmarker} it always seemed to us that it would be kind of nice to {disfmarker} in addition to , uh , reducing insertions , actually use up less bandwidth .
PhD A: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor B: But nobody seems to have {vocalsound} cared about that in this {pause} evaluation .
PhD A: And that way the net could use {disfmarker}
Professor B: So .
PhD A: If the net 's on the server side then it could use all of the {pause} frames .
PhD C: Yes , it could be . It 's , like , you mean you just transferred everything and then finally drop the frames after the neural net .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Right ? Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} that 's one thing which {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: But you could even mark them , before they get to the server .
PhD C: Yeah . Right now we are {disfmarker} Uh , ri Right now what {disfmarker} wha what we did is , like , we just mark {disfmarker} we just have this additional bit which goes around the features , {vocalsound} saying it 's currently a {disfmarker} it 's a speech or a nonspeech .
PhD A: Oh , OK .
PhD C: So there is no frame - dropping till the final features , like , including the deltas are computed .
PhD A: I see .
PhD C: And after the deltas are computed , you just pick up the ones that are marked silence and then drop them .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . I see . I see .
Professor B: So it would be more or less the same thing with the neural net , I guess , actually .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: So . Yeah , that 's what {disfmarker} that 's what {disfmarker} that 's what , uh , this is doing right now .
PhD A: I see . OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Um . OK . So , uh , what 's , uh {disfmarker} ? That 's {disfmarker} that 's a good set of work that {disfmarker} that , uh {disfmarker}
PhD C: Just one more thing . Like , should we do something f more for the noise estimation , because we still {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: Yeah . I was wondering about that . That was {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I had written that down there .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Um {disfmarker}
PhD E: So , we , uh {disfmarker} actually I did the first experiment . This is {pause} with just fifteen frames . Um . We take the first fifteen frame of each utterance to it ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: and average their power spectra . Um . I tried just plugging the , um , {vocalsound} uh , Guenter noise estimation on this system , and it {disfmarker} uh , it got worse . Um , but of course I didn't play {pause} with it .
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD E: But {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . Uh , I didn't {pause} do much more {pause} for noise estimation . I just tried this ,
Professor B: Hmm . Yeah . Well , it 's not surprising it 'd be worse the first time .
PhD E: and {disfmarker}
Professor B: But , um ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: it does seem like , you know , i i i i some compromise between always depending on the first fifteen frames and a a always depending on a {disfmarker} a pause is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is a good idea . Uh , maybe you have to weight the estimate from the first - teen {disfmarker} fifteen frames more heavily than {disfmarker} than was done in your first attempt . But {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: but {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah , I guess .
Professor B: Yeah . Um . No , I mean {disfmarker} Um , do you have any way of assessing how well or how poorly the noise estimation is currently doing ?
PhD E: Mmm . No , we don't .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: We don't have nothing {pause} that {disfmarker}
PhD C: Is there {disfmarker} was there any experiment with {disfmarker} ? Well , I {disfmarker} I did {disfmarker} The only experiment where I tried was I used the channel zero VAD for the noise estimation and frame - dropping . So I don't have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I don't have a split , like which one helped more .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD C: So . It {disfmarker} it was the best result I could get .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: So , that 's the {disfmarker}
Professor B: So that 's something you could do with , um , this final system . Right ? Just do this {disfmarker} everything that is in this final system except , {vocalsound} uh , use the channel zero .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . For the noise estimation .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah . We can try something .
Professor B: And then see how much better it gets .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Sure .
Professor B: If it 's , you know , essentially not better , then {pause} it 's probably not worth
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: any more .
PhD C: Yeah . But the Guenter 's argument is slightly different . It 's , like , ev even {disfmarker} even if I use a channel zero VAD , I 'm just averaging the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the s power spectrum . But the Guenter 's argument is , like , if it is a non - stationary {pause} segment , then he doesn't update the noise spectrum . So he 's , like {disfmarker} he tries to capture only the stationary part in it . So the averaging is , like , {vocalsound} different from {pause} updating the noise spectrum only during stationary segments . So , th the Guenter was arguing that , I mean , even if you have a very good VAD , averaging it , like , over the whole thing is not a good idea .
Professor B: I see .
PhD C: Because you 're averaging the stationary and the non - stationary , and finally you end up getting something which is not really the s because , you {disfmarker} anyway , you can't remove the stationary part fr I mean , non - stationary part from {vocalsound} the signal .
Professor B: Not using these methods anyway . Yeah .
PhD C: So {disfmarker} Yeah . So you just {pause} update only doing {disfmarker} or update only the stationary components . Yeah . So , that 's {disfmarker} so that 's still a slight difference from what Guenter is trying
Professor B: Well , yeah . And {disfmarker} and also there 's just the fact that , um , eh , uh , although we 're trying to do very well on this evaluation , um , we actually would like to have something that worked well in general . And , um , relying on having fifteen frames at the front or something is {disfmarker} is pretty {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah , yeah .
Professor B: I mean , you might , you might not .
PhD C: Mmm .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , um . Um , it 'd certainly be more robust to different kinds of input if you had at least some updates . Um .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But , um . Well , I don't know . What {disfmarker} what do you , uh {disfmarker} what do you guys see as {disfmarker} as being what you would be doing in the next week , given wha what 's {pause} happened ?
PhD C: Cure the VAD ?
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD A: What was that ?
PhD C: VAD .
PhD A: Oh .
PhD C: And {disfmarker}
Professor B: OK .
PhD E: So , should we keep the same {disfmarker} ? I think we might try to keep the same idea of having a neural network , but {vocalsound} training it on more data and adding better features , I think , but {disfmarker} because the current network is just PLP features . Well , it 's trained on noisy {pause} PLP {disfmarker}
PhD C: Just the cepstra . Yeah .
PhD E: PLP features computed on noisy speech . But {vocalsound} {vocalsound} there is no nothing particularly robust in these features .
PhD A: So , I I uh {disfmarker}
PhD C: No .
PhD E: There 's no RASTA , no {disfmarker}
PhD A: So , uh , I {disfmarker} I don't remember what you said {vocalsound} the answer to my , uh , question earlier . Will you {disfmarker} will you train the net on {disfmarker} after you 've done the spectral subtraction or the Wiener filtering ?
Professor B: This is a different net .
PhD A: Oh .
PhD C: So we have a VAD which is like neur that 's a neural net .
PhD E: Oh , yeah . Hmm .
PhD A: Oh , you 're talking about the VAD net . OK .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: I see .
PhD C: So that {disfmarker} that VAD was trained on the noisy features .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: So , right now we have , like , uh {disfmarker} we have the cleaned - up features , so we can have a better VAD by training the net on {pause} the cleaned - up speech .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . I see . I see .
PhD C: Yeah , but we need a VAD for uh noise estimation also . So it 's , like , where do we want to put the VAD ? Uh , it 's like {disfmarker}
PhD A: Can you use the same net to do both , or {disfmarker} ?
PhD C: For {disfmarker}
PhD A: Can you use the same net that you {disfmarker} that I was talking about to do the VAD ?
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Uh , it actually comes at v at the very end .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: So the net {disfmarker} the final net {disfmarker} I mean , which is the feature net {disfmarker} so that actually comes after a chain of , like , LDA plus everything . So it 's , like , it takes a long time to get a decision out of it . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and you can actually do it for final frame - dropping , but not for the VA - f noise estimation .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: You see , the idea is that the , um , initial decision to {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that you 're in silence or speech happens pretty quickly .
PhD A: Oh , OK .
PhD C: Hmm .
PhD A: Cuz that 's used by some of these other {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: And that {disfmarker} Yeah . And that 's sort of fed forward , and {disfmarker} and you say " well , flush everything , it 's not speech anymore " .
PhD A: Oh , OK . I see .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD A: I thought that was only used for doing frame - dropping later on .
Professor B: Um , it is used , uh {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's only used f Well , it 's used for frame - dropping . Um , it 's used for end of utterance
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor B: because , you know , there 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you have {pause} more than five hundred milliseconds of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of nonspeech then you figure it 's end of utterance or something like that .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , um .
PhD E: And it seems important for , like , the on - line normalization . Um . We don't want to update the mean and variance during silen long silence portions . Um . So it {disfmarker} it has to be done before
PhD A: Oh . I see .
PhD E: this mean and variance normalization . Um .
Professor B: Um . Yeah . So probably the VAD and {disfmarker} and maybe testing out the noise {pause} estimation a little bit . I mean , keeping the same method but {disfmarker} but , uh , {vocalsound} seeing if you cou but , um noise estimation could be improved . Those are sort of related issues .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: It probably makes sense to move from there . And then , uh , {vocalsound} later on in the month I think we wanna start including the {pause} neural net at the end . Um . OK . Anything else ?
PhD E: The Half Dome was great .
Professor B: Good . Yeah . You didn't {disfmarker} didn't fall . That 's good .
PhD C: Well , yeah .
Professor B: Our e our effort would have been devastated if you guys had {comment} {vocalsound} run into problems .
PhD A: So , Hynek is coming back next week , you said ?
Professor B: Yeah , that 's the plan .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor B: I guess the week after he 'll be , uh , going back to Europe , and so we wanna {disfmarker}
PhD A: Is he in Europe right now or is he up at {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: No , no . He 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} he 's dropped into the US . Yeah . Yeah .
PhD A: Oh . Hmm .
Professor B: So . Uh . {vocalsound} So , uh . Uh , the idea was that , uh , we 'd {disfmarker} we 'd sort out where we were going next with this {disfmarker} with this work before he , uh , left on this next trip . Good . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Uh , Barry , you just got through your {vocalsound} quals , so I don't know if you {vocalsound} have much to say . But , uh .
Grad D: Mmm . No , just , uh , looking into some {disfmarker} some of the things that , um , {vocalsound} uh , John Ohala and Hynek , um , gave as feedback , um , as {disfmarker} as a starting point for the project . Um . In {disfmarker} in my proposal , I {disfmarker} I was thinking about starting from a set of , uh , phonological features , {vocalsound} or a subset of them . Um , but that might not be necessarily a good idea according to , um , John .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: He said , uh , um , these {disfmarker} these phonological features are {disfmarker} are sort of figments of imagination also .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Um . S
Professor B: In conversational speech in particular . I think you can {disfmarker} you can put them in pretty reliably in synthetic speech .
Grad D: Ye
Professor B: But {vocalsound} we don't have too much trouble recognizing synthetic speech since we create it in the first place . So , it 's {disfmarker}
Grad D: Right . Yeah . So , um , a better way would be something more {disfmarker} more data - driven ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: just looking at the data and seeing what 's similar and what 's not similar .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: So , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm , um , taking a look at some of , um , {vocalsound} Sangita 's work on {disfmarker} on TRAPS . She did something where , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} w where the TRAPS learn She clustered the {disfmarker} the temporal patterns of , um , certain {disfmarker} certain phonemes in {disfmarker} in m averaged over many , many contexts . And , uh , some things tended to cluster .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Right ? You know , like stop {disfmarker} stop consonants clustered really well .
PhD A: Hmm .
Grad D: Um , silence was by its own self .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: And , uh , um , {vocalsound} v vocalic was clustered .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: And , {vocalsound} um , so , {vocalsound} those are {pause} interesting things to {disfmarker}
PhD A: So you 're {disfmarker} now you 're sort of looking to try to gather a set of these types of features ?
Grad D: Right .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Yeah . Just to see where {disfmarker} where I could start off from ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: uh , you know ? A {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a set of small features and continue to iterate and find , uh , a better set .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Yeah .
Professor B: OK . Well , short meeting . That 's OK .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: OK . So next week hopefully we 'll {disfmarker} can get Hynek here to {disfmarker} to join us and , uh , uh .
PhD A: Should we do digits ?
Professor B: Digits , digits . OK , now .
PhD A: Go ahead , Morgan . You can start .
Professor B: Alright . Let me get my glasses on so I can {pause} see them . OK .
PhD A: OK . And we 're off .
Professor B: Mm
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Project Manager: Okay . Here we go . Alright , the agenda for thi oh . Alright . Um the agenda for this meeting {vocalsound} is um {disfmarker} we'll initially have the prototype presentation by our two designers . And then we will evaluate it , given the criteria that um that we gave gave it . And um talk about our finances , whether we were under or over our budget . I have a um a spreadsheet where we can calculate um our prices for every aspect of of what we've made , given our options . And um evaluate the product , as a group .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: And um {disfmarker} So first we'll have the prototype presentation . Do you need the um PowerPoint for this ?
Industrial Designer: Um yeah . I just got a few slides , so show them .
Project Manager: Alright .
Industrial Designer: Thank you . Do you want to present it ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , here we are .
User Interface: {vocalsound} This is what we came up with . It's a pretty simple design . It's um based on a mango ? Yeah . And {vocalsound} we {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: On ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Mango shape .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} A mango . Okay .
User Interface: Yeah . And we have the company logo here and this will be the infrared here
Industrial Designer: The L_E_D_ .
User Interface: and this'll be the power point , the on off button kind {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh . Okay .
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: I'm sorry .
Project Manager: Oops .
Marketing: What was the {disfmarker} where's the L_E_D_ ?
User Interface: It's in the middle of one of the little R_s .
Marketing: Oh . Okay .
User Interface: And then the other one is the power . And uh we just have a simple design . We wanted it all to be
Industrial Designer: So it's palm-held .
User Interface: accessible from your thumb
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {disfmarker} yeah palm-held
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: and all the buttons are accessible from your thumb .
Project Manager: Notice you have a number ten button .
User Interface: So you don't have to {disfmarker} Oh that was a mistake , wasn't it ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You just need the nought . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Right no , that's a zero .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Take that one off . {vocalsound} Sorry . I was in charge of the numbers . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No problem .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Ah .
User Interface: And this is just if you've got like eleven or twelve or thirt the plus .
Industrial Designer: So one plus one would be eleven ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} You can go one , three or something .
Industrial Designer: or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh . You press a plus button ?
User Interface: You press that first and then you go one three yeah .
Project Manager: Oh okay . I've never heard of that kind before .
User Interface: Well we just thought , we have all the numbers here , so we wanted something representative of numbers larger than ten and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah because if you {disfmarker} on your average um remote , if you press one twice you just go to {disfmarker} um or uh say you wanted channel twelve , you press one , and then you go to channel one , and then two then you'd just go to channel two , instead of twelve .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Oh , there's no e
Project Manager: Oh .
Industrial Designer: So if you did like one plus two you could go to channel twelve , or two plus two is channel twenty two .
User Interface: So the plus and then {disfmarker}
Marketing: okay .
User Interface: yeah .
Project Manager: I
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: But {disfmarker} Would you have to go zero plus one if you wanted to go to channel one or two ?
User Interface: No no , th all {disfmarker} that's why we have all these numbers . These numbers um these numbers all work independently up to nine . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah but I mean if you press , it'll go to that channel right away . 'Cause you gotta press the plus afterwards .
User Interface: Yeah . Oh no . Uh , the plus is only for if you're going past the number nine .
Project Manager: Yeah I know , but if if I wanna go to say number like sixty five , channel sixty five , if I press the six it'll go to channel six , and then I'll press the plus , and then it'll go to six and then put the five and it'll go to sixty five ?
Marketing: Sixty .
User Interface: You p Oh . No you press the plus first .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
User Interface: I I {disfmarker} well it doesn't {disfmarker} we haven't really s I would've thought you pressed the plus first and then the six five ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but she says plus {disfmarker} {vocalsound} press {disfmarker} which {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well I don't mind , we can further define that .
User Interface: what do you think is simpler ?
Project Manager: I th Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I wouldn't have thought it'd be a problem that it went to channel six first , in like on the way to channel sixty five .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah it wouldn't be a problem . But I was just wondering
Industrial Designer: But I suppose it's not as snappy .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: like as long as we realise that's what it'll do .
Marketing: Well the there is a {disfmarker} there's a delay on remotes I think .
User Interface: Oops . Yeah .
Marketing: Where you can have it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: it's like a five second input time .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . If you don't put it {disfmarker}
Marketing: So as long as you hit them dada
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} it should be fine .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: As long as there's not a big pause between the t hitting the two buttons .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Was there {disfmarker} so on the top there is volume and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And channel ,
User Interface: A channel .
Industrial Designer: which is so you could just go like that without thinking about it , like {disfmarker}
Marketing: Channel up volume up . Okay cool .
Project Manager: C_ and V_ .
User Interface: Just so we can flick {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right , where um where's the power button ?
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: It's in the middle of one of the little R_s . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's the bigger R_ .
Marketing: It's the R_ .
Project Manager: Oh okay .
Industrial Designer: So it's just like {vocalsound} .
User Interface: Yeah ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: so it's all accessible . Without m taking your hand off the remote .
Industrial Designer: We deci
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah um we went for like a a circular design for the numbers
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: because we thought that's kind of a more natural movement than just going like that with your thumb .
Project Manager: Oh okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh e ergonomics are all considered .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Ergonomic , definitely ergonomic .
User Interface: And {vocalsound} it might actually help with the repetitive stress injury as well .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It could cause another type of repetitive stress injury though .
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But yeah , no I mean it's a different movement
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um and the feel of it , I mean , we've made this out of Play Doh , which is representing the , you know , the rubber , and the spongy rubberness .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The spon yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um 'cause it was said before in the material specification that this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this anti-R_S_I_ um material is often used in stress balls so this has got a you know a bit of give to it ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and it just feels feels different .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Bit of a stress ball feel .
Industrial Designer: Would you like to feel it yourselves ?
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes . I would .
Industrial Designer: How it fits in the palm of your hand ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: My goodness .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Thanks .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} There you go .
Industrial Designer: And you ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Genevieve ?
Marketing: Yes
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: . Oh it's nice . Oh I think I killed the five .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I did .
Project Manager: And something hmm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I killed the four . Oh god . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: O Okay , as for the colours , we were presented with um a limited range of colours for this prototype .
User Interface: Of Play Doh yeah .
Marketing: Oh it smells good . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But we're thinking that , seeing as we're having it in interchangeable casing anyway , that this is not necessarily a representation of the true colours that we would necessarily use . Or the combination . Um and we're thinking to carry-on with the fruit and vegetable theme , the colour um combination just could just be named after different fruit , like banana could be black and yellow , watermelon red and green ,
Project Manager: Oh right .
Industrial Designer: or vanilla might be the most popular if it just uh blends in
User Interface: 'Cause it'd be quite subtle and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: more settled cream instead of the others are all a bit garish .
Project Manager: Yeah . It looks more {disfmarker} Think like vanilla and banana would .
Industrial Designer: Banana's more representative of our colour scheme , like the company {disfmarker} the yellow and black .
Project Manager: Okay yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So that {disfmarker} for corporate identity that would probably be the most strength .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I mean watermelon , you know , m probably appealing to the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Kinda Christmas , you know .
Industrial Designer: yeah , seasonal .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah , yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Apple green , brown , more kinda trendy , you know , khaki {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: The pomegranate's kinda girly and funky kind of ,
Project Manager: Cool .
User Interface: and then the vanilla's more for the more sophisticated {vocalsound} customer who just wants something that fits in with all decor .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Okay . Um yeah we thought of the components it was definitely um a focus of ergonomics and just a single ha handheld device , I mean you don't need to use both hands , one hand to hold this and type in with the other , you can just use your thumb .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um , as we said the rubber's probably used for comfort and anti-R_S_I_ and that's about it .
Project Manager: Alright , thank you very much .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Good work everyone .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Bravo {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright . And so now that we've we have a prototype , uh we need to go over the finances and seeing if this prototype matches uh what our budget can handle .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So , I have something I'm going to {disfmarker} Oh wait a minute .
Marketing: You want the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you need to do a presentation first ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} I don't know what order it goes in .
Project Manager: Yeah . I'm gonna check that out for a second .
Marketing: I have one .
Industrial Designer: Mm go {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What time is it anyw
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Oh yeah sorry you're right . Evaluation criteria is next in line .
Marketing: Evaluation cri Okay . That's me .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Hello . Oh there we go . Okay . Come on my computer . Come on . {vocalsound} Sorry my computer's giving me technical difficulties .
Project Manager: Just press um function eight again .
Marketing: Should I press it again ? Last time I did that it sh Okay . You're right .
Project Manager: And then again I think . One more time .
Marketing: Oh . Still not there .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Okay now I think for this one I could {disfmarker} Would you guys prefer use the whiteboard or mayb maybe I'll just do it on {disfmarker} right on the screen where you can see it . Um , we're gonna be doing an evaluation report together based on the protoptype that we've just seen . Um and looking looking back at my notes from our {disfmarker} both our conceptual and our functional meetings , um I made a list of what our original requirements and goals were , um , back to our kick-off meeting this morning . Um , and we'll evaluate as to whether we've s done what we set out to do . Um and we're gonna do it on a one to seven scale where one is true and seven is false . So basically the lower p the lower the points the better . {vocalsound} Okay so question number one . Does the remote {disfmarker} whoops . Sorry . Oh I'm not gonna be able {disfmarker} um , I'll do it on the whiteboard . I can't change it so I'm g I'm gonna ask you to push it down once .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: I'll write down our scores up on the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ooh .
Marketing: Okay so number one . Do we have a fancy look-and-feel ?
Industrial Designer: Feel I think .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: We've been quite successful with the rubber coating
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The look is a little bit more playful .
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah I guess that depends on your definition of fancy , but it's definitely different .
Project Manager: Oh definitely different yeah .
Marketing: It's not your traditional {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think the colour has a lot to do with it . I mean {vocalsound} th the colours we were given for making the prototype aren't the colours that I think we would've necessarily chosen .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's not the kind of {disfmarker} ooh uh at all sleek
Project Manager: Oh you were only given red and black ?
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} red , black and yellow , and orange .
Project Manager: Oh okay .
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound} so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} not very sleek and we don't wanna go for black because most remote controls are black or grey .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: So we want it to be stand out that way , anyway .
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay .
Industrial Designer: But if you can imagine that in like a s just a {disfmarker} maybe uh a kind of pale metallic-y finish or something {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . A metallic-y finish we were thinking .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well I know know it's for rubber .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I mean diff if you can visualise this in nice colours I think it would look quite fancy . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Polished . Okay {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . I kinda {disfmarker} I like the potato look .
Project Manager: It's mango . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh well , potato , mango , fruit and veg .
User Interface: {vocalsound} We we were {vocalsound} we were thinking about {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's very different . It's what ?
Project Manager: It's mango . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh sorry the mango the mango look .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Potato's fine . Potato's fine .
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah it is , fruit or vegetable depends on your mood .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Totally . It's really adaptable .
Marketing: So I myself would say a one or a two .
Project Manager: Yeah . I would say two . Personally .
User Interface: I w I'd say two I think .
Marketing: It's a two ?
Industrial Designer: For the
Marketing: Okay ,
User Interface: Fanciness .
Marketing: and p
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: fancy {disfmarker}
Marketing: One being true . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} uh two , three . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Two .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay , actu that's pro that's gonna get confusing , like that . Okay so question number two was {vocalsound} is it techn technologically innovative ? So I know we have the kinetic energy which is very innovative .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah and the use of the rubber .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Use of the rubber , the use of the L_E_D_ .
Industrial Designer: For the anti-R_S_I_ .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The L_E_D_ use isn't particularly innovative
Marketing: Isn't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and we don't have any scroll buttons , it's all pushbuttons ,
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: there's no L_C_D_ control , so if we're thinking about the rest of the market , it's sort of probably halfway .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: In some aspects it is , like we said .
Project Manager: Yeah . I'd say maybe three .
User Interface: I'll go for three as well .
Marketing: Yeah . And I think {disfmarker} I mean it it's tough to say because we were {disfmarker} we didn't want it to be any more innovative than this , because then that would've defeated the purpose .
Project Manager: Yeah we want it simple .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Though it was our specification .
User Interface: No . Wouldn't be simple , yeah .
Marketing: So I mean I {disfmarker} we'll put three , but I think we actually reached our goal .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} We didn't want it any more than that . Okay question number three . Uh , will it be easy to use ?
Project Manager: I think so . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah very .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: I think one for that .
Marketing: Yeah . S Yeah
Project Manager: Yeah . One .
Marketing: I think it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: you can't really get confused with that .
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: Th
Marketing: I mean , there'll be s we have to work out the uh number {disfmarker} the plus system .
Project Manager: The plus number thing .
User Interface: Yeah that's the only thing yeah .
Marketing: But once that's figured out , it should be fine .
Industrial Designer: Yeah and perhaps the turning on but {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Number four . Is this a good-looking remote ?
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Remember that seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly .
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's definitely {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Again I think the colour comes into this .
Project Manager: Yeah colour will definitely be a factor .
Marketing: Mm-hmm {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: I think that the logo could be smaller .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: And maybe not such a prominent way .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Maybe like at the bottom , kind of .
User Interface: But the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Not in {disfmarker}
User Interface: Remember the management said that it it had to be prominent .
Project Manager: Oh it just had to be on there I guess .
Marketing: Whoops .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Should just not touch it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Don't worry . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} This time it's the three I killed . {vocalsound} I was just wondering if it should be like flatter . Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I suppose I've got quite big hands .
Project Manager: I like the appeal of it being like a big glob in your hand .
Marketing: Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But you know what I've just thought of there now . What {disfmarker} where's it gonna sit in your living room ? Is it not gonna fall off the arm of the sofa ?
Project Manager: Maybe if the bottom was just sort of flat , and then the rest is like
Marketing: Yeah the bottom could be like ch chopped a bit .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: round .
User Interface: But then it wouldn't sit as comfortably in your hand {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Oh . That's true .
Project Manager: It would still be comfortable I think . We c we could handle it I think .
Industrial Designer: Thing is like that , it's not going anywhere particularly .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Maybe , it could {disfmarker} it could be on the bottom , so you wouldn't loo like if it's flat here , so it sits up .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Like that .
User Interface: Oh that would be nice . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ah it'd fall over all the time though . It'd be annoying .
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah , it's less um , what's th ha .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I g If it's weighted maybe .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Kay we're done designing .
Industrial Designer: H it's got higher centre of gravity like that .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Details , details . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Come on .
Marketing: Okay . So , is this a good-looking remote ? {vocalsound} Would we wanna show it off to our friends ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Three . You would though , 'cause it's bit {disfmarker} it's more interesting than other remotes .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think , it was another colour and it was like {disfmarker} I think it'd look okay . I think maybe a two .
Marketing: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: I would definitely go for that rather than like your average plain old remote like that ,
Marketing: I mean I gue yeah , it's personal taste , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but definitely in another colour , I'm not happy with those colours .
Marketing: Okay , so should we say two for that ?
Project Manager: Sure .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay . Uh , question number five . What's um {disfmarker} will people be willing to spend twenty five Euros on this product ? Remember that eighty percent of users were willing to spend more money when a remote control looked fancy .
User Interface: I think we have to market it in the right way , that um {disfmarker} to say that it is simplistic .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So people don't just see it and think , uh , this is so simplistic , I don't want to spend twenty five Euros .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: We have to market it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah it {disfmarker} the marketing will have a lot to do with it .
Industrial Designer: And {vocalsound} the kinetic energy , shaker-style-y , whoo ,
User Interface: And the kinetic energy part . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} Durable . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: ooh no . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Shake it and the buttons fall off . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But you know , those'll be firmly on .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Don't shake {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Oh no the plus . {vocalsound} You're
Marketing: No , I guess , I don't know much about the remote control industry , how much your average sells for ,
User Interface: {disfmarker} use the zero .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Make a new one .
Project Manager: But you're our Marketing Expert . {vocalsound}
Marketing: but {disfmarker} I know I am , aren't I ?
User Interface: I think they're about ten po ten pound , aren't they ? About ten pounds . Fifteen ?
Marketing: But you don't have to buy batteries . So in the long term this can actually save you money .
Industrial Designer: Mm , yeah , that's true .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Oh . Exactly . Exactly .
Marketing: So we'll market it that way too .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Good point .
Marketing: So yeah I think with a good marketing scheme um and the personalisation options , it'll {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . I would give it a two still though .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah . Okay number six . Can someone read it out ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Does this prototype match the operating behaviour of the average user .
Marketing: Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Um yeah . So that was mainly that the statistics {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: I think it does very well .
Project Manager: Oh yeah .
Industrial Designer: Because {disfmarker}
Marketing: we said {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: yeah , because the most accessible buttons are the volume and the and the channel-changing .
User Interface: The zap {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And it's just {disfmarker} you won't have to think about it .
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: You don't have to look down to find them .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: They're clearly there , easy to use .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Simple .
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah I guess the {disfmarker} I think the key word there is average , 'cause there were some people that used the uh video input and sound and stuff .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: But they're not you and I really .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So . Okay so one ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay . Number seven . C Heather could you push it down ? Will this remote control be easy to find when lost ? Remember that fifty percent of users lose their remote regularly .
Project Manager: We have the alarm system .
Marketing: Now is there the {disfmarker} is the alarm system still {disfmarker} was it implemented ?
User Interface: Yeah the bu when you press the alarm system , the {vocalsound} lights {vocalsound} behind the {disfmarker} and it'll vibra {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} Yeah
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: l lights on and , or flash as well . But I mean it's not obviously obvious from the outside that that's gonna happen 'cause you can't s particularly see an alarm .
User Interface: It'll be again in the marketing .
Project Manager: I thought the light from the inside was gonna light up .
User Interface: Yeah . The light {disfmarker} it will .
Project Manager: Or or was it gonna make a noise ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . But when the alarm's not {disfmarker}
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: yeah . If you {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: But both {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You press the button it makes a noise right ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} It turns into a duck and starts quacking .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You could s {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . Awesome . Awesome .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh , that would be brilliant .
Marketing: Here I am .
User Interface: I'd be tempted to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well the thing is , if it was {disfmarker} had an alarm system ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I mean , when it when it lights up as we I mean it could light up when the alarm went . But if it was hidden underneath the cushion or something , there wouldn't be any point .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So you can't see the alarm , but it would light up .
User Interface: It would have to be in the market
Project Manager: I though w it was gonna make a noise .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Alarm ,
User Interface: Yeah but you still couldn't see it .
Industrial Designer: but you can't see an alarm inside uh {disfmarker} the alarm system itself .
User Interface: It would just be a little speaker on the back or something .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: We {disfmarker} oh you're just explaining why it's not on the prototype .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah . It w yeah .
Marketing: But yeah , it'll be there .
Project Manager: Oh okay .
Marketing: So we can {disfmarker} we could say that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Whoo . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Sorry .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: We can give it a one , because compared to every other remote ever m ever made , this one will be easier to find .
Project Manager: Yeah , totally .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sorry Heather .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No problem , mm .
Industrial Designer: That wasn't very clear .
Marketing: Question number eight . Will it be easy to learn how to use this remote when brand new ? Remember that thirty four percent of users usually found it difficult .
Project Manager: Totally .
Marketing: So it has to be {disfmarker} yeah , it's eas they'll pick it up and they'll know what to do .
User Interface: So the plu the plus {disfmarker} w once that's written down on the page that'll be really simple ,
Marketing: The plus thing needs to be worked on .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah
User Interface: won't it ?
Industrial Designer: I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: just because it's {disfmarker} we've decided to reduce it down to the basic buttons , I think that in itself makes it so much easier to use .
Marketing: Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Do {disfmarker} Does it make more sense for the middle one to be an {disfmarker} just an enter button ? So then you would have to push two buttons every time at least .
Project Manager: Yeah , so it's just like channel six , six , enter .
User Interface: That kind of annoys me though , when it's zero six when you have to press {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah but you don't have to press zeros .
User Interface: I don't know why . {vocalsound}
Marketing: You could just press six enter ,
User Interface: Oh okay . Right .
Project Manager: And then like twelve , enter .
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker} or sixty six enter , y
Marketing: or one two enter .
User Interface: Alright , aye .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah I think that's probably more straightforward . Yeah . Good {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Um , okay so we can {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: I'd say w yeah one .
Marketing: we'll say yes it's uh one ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Ooh . Mm .
Marketing: Question number nine .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Marketing: Uh , will it minimise the effects of R_S_I_ , which was repeated strain injury ?
Industrial Designer: Injury .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Um , which affected over a quarter of users .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Hmm .
Marketing: S
Project Manager: I think so . It's like right in the {disfmarker}
User Interface: But if you're zapping {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Your thumb might get a little bit uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's what I was thinking .
User Interface: yeah . I don't think it will f
Industrial Designer: We may have to do some more research into other strain injuries that we don't know about .
User Interface: Yeah ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: the biology .
Project Manager: But it is soft .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: It's soft ,
Project Manager: And that's kind of what the um
Marketing: and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: the PowerPoint slide thing said would be good for R_S_I_ ,
Marketing: And people could {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: so {disfmarker} maybe it is but {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know what other options there are .
Industrial Designer: I think we're getting {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: that's true .
Marketing: Could {disfmarker} I mean , you could hold it in your left hand and d use your index finger .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: But there's not really any other options unless it's like a keyboard .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So , I think we did as as much as you can with a remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So , one or two do you think ?
Industrial Designer: I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: I I'd say t
Industrial Designer: yeah , I think too .
User Interface: two . Yeah
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Two okay . Okay number ten . Did we somehow incorporate the company colour and logo ?
Project Manager: Yes we did .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Now is the colour gonna be there even if it's like vanilla ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} N We we can't really do that
Marketing: Is the yellow {disfmarker}
User Interface: because for example on the banana theme we can't have it as being yellow .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It won't stand out .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So n it's not always gonna be the same colour .
Marketing: It sounds like the colour's something that we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well , yeah the colours are yellow and grey .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Gray , yeah .
Project Manager: So it could be grey on the banana one .
User Interface: Yeah , could be grey .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: But I mean the yell yeah d yellow's ugly though ,
User Interface: Yeah that's right ,
Marketing: depending on the {disfmarker}
User Interface: we didn't even rea
Marketing: So I think we'll have to talk to our executive managers , and see if we can get away with just the R_R_ .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Yeah . I think this is the
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: the factor that we've been least successful in confronting .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Perhaps a metallic
Project Manager: Mm , yeah .
User Interface: or or {disfmarker} like that's grey , and it wouldn't be that expensive to have a little bit of metal . No ?
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: That isn't rubber .
Marketing: And the buttons in the middle .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay So , do you think that's more of a three then ? Three , four ?
Industrial Designer: Four I think . Well I don't {disfmarker}
Marketing: Four ?
Industrial Designer: what do {disfmarker} what {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hum .
Marketing: Well we have good reasons for it , so we {disfmarker} but we can still put a a four ?
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Okay , and final question . {vocalsound} Um , did we stay true to our motto and put the fashion into electronics ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Current trends of fruits and veggies , desire for sponginess . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I would say so .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Following that briefing we did .
Project Manager: But maybe more like two 'cause there's no like pictures of fruit , it's just sort of naming it by a fruit .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: With the with the colours .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Like um the colour scheme names and stuff .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: No , uh , are the plates interchangeable ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I think I missed a few {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: they are ? So you can have banana and kiwi and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: okay . Okay , so that's something that's kind of in the making too , like maybe it'll become more {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's fashionable in itself to have interchangeable plates .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: It is .
User Interface: I think w yeah , I think one . Well that was our brief and we followed the brief .
Industrial Designer: The thing is , I think if somebody saw that and you said what was that inspired from , I don't know if you'd instantly say mango .
User Interface: Well we haven't got a big banana but {disfmarker} Oh yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Be like {disfmarker}
User Interface: No . {vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Maybe if it was scented .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh that would be class . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah . There we go . That would be great .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah we have money for that . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright so based on this evaluation , do we average them out sorta thing ?
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes we do . So I {disfmarker} wh what was I gonna put for that ?
Project Manager: Oh .
Marketing: A two for fashion ?
Project Manager: I would say two .
User Interface: Yeah . Two .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Okay , so our average there , five , six , eight , ten , eleven , twelve , thirteen , fifteen , nineteen , twenty one , divided by eleven
Project Manager: One point nine or something ?
User Interface: It's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's {disfmarker}
Marketing: is {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I don't know these things . Um , between one and two .
Industrial Designer: Between one and two .
Marketing: Between {disfmarker} okay .
Industrial Designer: So that's pretty fantastic .
User Interface: Close to two .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , that's very good 'cause the highest we coulda got is one .
Project Manager: Alright .
User Interface: I got {disfmarker}
Marketing: Does that seem right then ?
User Interface: Yeah , 'cause we've a four to bring down .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Uh , aye .
Industrial Designer: It seems like it should be more around two .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Uh , should've added five .
Industrial Designer: Do we have an online calculator ?
Project Manager: I'm attempting to do that {vocalsound} right now .
User Interface: {vocalsound} This is {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah it is one point nine . Ooh .
Industrial Designer: Oh wow . Well done .
User Interface: Yay .
Project Manager: Go Heather Pauls .
Industrial Designer: Well that's excellent .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} Alright , now with that over and done with , our next step is to see if we are under budget . And um my computer's frozen . And now it's not . Okay . So um in our shared folder , if everyone could go there right now , um I'm going to um steal a cable .
Marketing: Sorry . Are you gonna do that ? Okay .
Project Manager: Um it's it's um
User Interface: Is that the project document ?
Project Manager: it's an Excel file . Oh .
Industrial Designer: Production costs .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: 'Kay there we go . Um , production costs . And um I have to access that as well . One moment . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It says it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: 'Kay so far I've added what I think {disfmarker} or what is going on ? Great . It's blinking at me . It's locked for editing . Read only . I'm gonna open up a second one then 'cause it's locked for editing . I have the original in my um my email account .
Marketing: Oh is it locked 'cause I'm in it ?
Project Manager: I dunno .
Industrial Designer: I think it just means that we can't add any more to it now .
Marketing: Or {disfmarker} okay .
Industrial Designer: Have you have you completed it ?
Project Manager: No . No , I was hoping that you guys could .
Industrial Designer: Oh right . Okay . Okay .
Project Manager: Um , there we go .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay here we go . So we need to tally up how much our w our product will be costing . So um if you can look up at the screen , um the large screen ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: oh I guess looking at your own too and telling me which one you think . Okay we're using kinetic which is quite a large expense at three Euros .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um we're using a regular chip .
User Interface: Oh right .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um , it's cur it's double curved , so its curved all around .
Industrial Designer: Double double-curved yeah .
Project Manager: That's another three . We're already at five . Um , we're using plastic and rubber ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: so {disfmarker} Good thing plastic is free , we're at eight . Um {disfmarker} S
User Interface: What about a special colour ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Are we using that ?
Project Manager: I guess we should do it just for one kind . So it's like special colour {disfmarker} well we'll have two colours
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: right ? Well one colour for the case , one colour for the buttons .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So we can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um , we have push button interface , so that's inexpensive . And um we have a special colour for the button , and we also have a special form . And a special material .
User Interface: And a special material . Yeah .
Project Manager: Which puts us just barely under budget .
Industrial Designer: Oof .
Project Manager: Hurray .
Industrial Designer: Congratulations guys .
Project Manager: Yeah . Good work guys .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm . 'S good . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So um our operating cost is twelve twenty Euros .
User Interface: That's good .
Project Manager: Awesome . And back to our PowerPoint . So we've {disfmarker} 'Kay . Yes we are . So we need to do a product evaluation , again ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: which is probably um {disfmarker} I dunno . A different extension of a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Of the actual project rather than the product ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: A project ? Is is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah 'cause we're talking about leadership , teamwork .
Industrial Designer: yeah . So wh how we actually went round uh about doing it .
Project Manager: Yeah . Alright so um {disfmarker} Do you guys feel like there was room for creativity ?
Industrial Designer: I think we were pushed .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Pushed for creativity ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I mean we weren't really given a lot of time , or materials , yeah , to go about our design task .
User Interface: The ma Or materials . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So I think we could've done with a bit more time .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Ye Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So it'd be like need more time and materials . But you were allowed m creativity ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think so as like {disfmarker} but you were supposed to have creativ
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah and the conceptual and functional . Like we were very creative in in coming up with an idea I guess , but m
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well we were just limited by resources really and like if we had decided to use the L_C_D_ screen , and like solar power backup and everything , then we wouldn't have been able to afford that .
Marketing: When we can down to it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So that did limit creativity .
User Interface: Creativity .
Project Manager: Right
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Just resources .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay
Industrial Designer: But yeah . The fruit and veg idea . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Great .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Leadership ? Is this me being like , guys do you like me ? Um . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Good leadership , I think we stayed on task .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah we did . We've , uh {disfmarker} seeing as we've come out with what we intended . A pro um a product within the budget . I think that's a sign of good leadership
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and also our personal coach helped us along the way ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so you know {disfmarker} I think it's been fine .
Marketing: And the timing was good . We never were pushed for time , or sat around doing nothing , so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Good timing .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Oop {gap} Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Teamwork ?
Industrial Designer: And project manager of course .
Project Manager: I think we worked great as a team . Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Was good teamwork . I think we are well-suited to our roles .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright how were our means ?
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We needed more Play Doh colours .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah and more Play Doh ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: 'cause that was all the red we had .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So even if we wanted to make a bigger prototype , we wouldn't have been able to .
User Interface: Yeah , it c it might've been bigger . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh really ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But ever everything else was satisfactory ?
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Is that good {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . The computer programmes are good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . It could be really straightforward for the computer .
Marketing: The {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think the only thing was having to remember to you know to tick the okays
Marketing: Yeah . I don't think there was anything {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but I think I was the only one who struggled with that . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm actually not sure if I've saved my presentations . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm . Uh me too .
Marketing: They'll probably still be there .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: New ideas found . I don't really know what that means .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well I think we've all learnt stuff from each other ,
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: like the n um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . Through discussion .
Industrial Designer: yeah . Just about each different {gap} . Got new ideas from each other . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I'm not sure , new ideas found .
Project Manager: Hmm ?
Marketing: Yeah well I guess we really {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} we bounced off of each other , which was cool .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Like based on marketing stuff and then you'd say something about interface and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: yeah , worked well .
User Interface: And we were a able to modify each other's ideas
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: to fit in with our areas of expertise . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . Each other's {gap}
Marketing: Oh does it have smart materials by the way ?
Industrial Designer: Sorry ?
Marketing: Does it have smart materials ?
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well mm , did it come into the into {disfmarker}
User Interface: If if it if it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I dunno if we counted that in the costs . {vocalsound}
User Interface: If it can be afforded .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay ? Well with that achieved , our last slide is our closing slide .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes our costs are within budget . It's evaluated generally positively .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: And um don't forget to complete final questionnaire and meeting summary .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Then we celebrate
Industrial Designer: Uh . Fantastic .
User Interface: Yay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} By watching T_V_ ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: in such a way that I have no idea .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay , brilliant .
Project Manager: Alright ?
Industrial Designer: Thank you very much . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , bye . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm . Conclusion ? Dadada .
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doc_76
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User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound} Yeah . That's okay . That's okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Am I starting now ? Anytime ? Oh sorry . 'Kay , um . Alright , welcome back fro to the second meeting . And um I hope you had a productive last thirty minutes .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um , and um , I'll be taking minutes on this one , and um {disfmarker} Being hooked up to the PowerPoint for this meeting isn't very necessary for uh myself , because it'll be more about uh , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . Um , so , the first presentation we'll be looking at is Poppy's presentation . And , um {disfmarker} So , sorry ? So , um , take it away Poppy .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Um , do I need to {disfmarker} {gap}
Project Manager: It's , it's plugged in . So , um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: plugged in .
User Interface: F_ eight , w . Function F_ eight .
Industrial Designer: F_ okay . Function F_ eight . Sorry about this guys .
Project Manager: No problem .
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: 'Kay . {gap} is on . Right . {gap} Okay . I will take this time just to apologise .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I , I only , uh , received my emails later on . 'Cause I was too busy carried away doing my own thing ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But there we go .
Project Manager: I'm sure it's fine .
Industrial Designer: Um , so I was looking at how we're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remote control needs to do . And it needs to um allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . They don't need to actually manually touch the television set . So , it gives them much more flexibility , and allows them to be where they want to be . Um , from {disfmarker} Uh , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there're certain points that will make our product unique . Um , one is the visibility in the dark , which was um Genevieve's idea . So we need to think about how we could bring this in um technically . And we could use illuminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we're using a mobile phone , or um something fam familiar . A automatically , um lights up at first touch . Or we could use fluorescent materials which would just um take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . Um , also we could use um an alarm . So if we lost the um remote control , perhaps there could be a button on the television set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . Maybe behind a cushion or somewhere .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um , so that would work . Um , oop . Go back there . Um , another thing I think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design . Um , from previous researches I've carried out on other projects , um we've learnt about smart materials where um um specific alloys of metals have a shape memory .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So they can be heated and um and cooled , and they change the shape of um the metal . So , for example , a screw that's holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart . So um , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , um everything would spring apart . So , all the um individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and I think that would be very important for products now . Especially 'cause there's much uh responsibility for all the um companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'Cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious .
Project Manager: Right , um , one question . This , um , self-destructible uh metal , it allows for recycling materials ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So that , um , someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ?
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} And then {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah they would , um you would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . And that's the part that would um allow all the other parts to be separated at the end . I mean , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it's the product's responsibility to get rid of what they've made . Um , and then the company could then just use , make use of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gonna wear out with time , or not usable , they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . Something like the case , if it's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Would we be the company that would break down these , or uh metals ? Or would we contribute to another group ?
Industrial Designer: You could {disfmarker} we could probably empl em employ a , a side company or something to do that for us . But it would be our responsibility to get that done and to dispose of the products that we made . For a certain percentage at least .
Project Manager: Alright .
Industrial Designer: Not every , not a hundred percent of everything we produce ,
Project Manager: Okay . This sounds like a really great idea .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: One thing we have to consider is our uh one hundred percent um turnover goal that we have for our financial sector .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Um , so we'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: um 'cause it sounds very labour-intensive . You would have to hire a number of people , and it might be more expensive .
Industrial Designer: Well I {disfmarker} the fact of the shape-memory alloys is that they , they don't need to be manually de um deconstructed . Like , you don't have to individually um unscrew all the screws . Because of this , their properties are smart material .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: All you need is just the heat , so they self-destruct themselves .
Project Manager: Alright . We'll still have to investigate the financial implications .
Industrial Designer: So I suppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high uh quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Alright . I like the environmental approach . Um , we'll have to see if that can meet our financial goals as well .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Okay . Um also there is um components . This'll be how it uh will actually work . But I haven't put this plan together yet .
Project Manager: I'm sorry , could you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: There we go
Project Manager: Those were um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: . Sorry , should I go back . This would actually show the circuit diagram . Although I haven't come up with the final circuit yet .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So I just {gap} put all those components in .
Project Manager: So those are what , um , we'll c construct the remote . Those are all the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I it just shows what sort of energy source . It could be a battery , like rechargeable probably . Um , an' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself .
Project Manager: Alright . Great .
Industrial Designer: Okay ? So , now is it F_ eight again to escape ? Or escape ? There we go . Okay .
Project Manager: Alright . Thank you very much . And , um , the next presenter will be Tara .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: There you go Tara .
User Interface: Thanks . Can you see ?
Marketing: Oh , {vocalsound}
User Interface: Do you think {disfmarker} Is it uh , function eight yeah ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Function F_ eight .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Function F_ eight .
Project Manager: Function F_ eight . Sorry .
Industrial Designer: The one at the top .
User Interface: Oh right . Okay .
Marketing: That looks right .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay . I'm the User {vocalsound} um User Interface Designer . Uh , the technical functions design of the apparatus is the effect the apparatus should have . Um , in this case it's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television , television set . By taking inspiration from other similar designs , we'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . There're two functional design options . A multifunctional remote control , which can be used for several entertainment devices . And a single function remote control , used specifically for the television . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I'm sorry , what was that last one . Multifunctional and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Sorry . Um , a single function just for the television itself .
Marketing: Ch Oh , I see .
User Interface: Yeah . Um , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as the multitude of buttons can be confusing . A single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices .
Marketing: 'Kay .
User Interface: Um , I think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it's easier to use . It'd be more compatible with a range of television sets , making it more internationally sellable . Um , it will make an original design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . And it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic . And less functions would have to be included . So it would be cheaper to make . And probably more sellable just because it's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . Does anyone have any questions ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So as far as we know , um , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ?
User Interface: Well , it's just that , when we're creating it , we're , we have to make it um compatible with different brands of devices .
Marketing: {gap} Right .
User Interface: And it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent ,
Marketing: D_V_D_s and V_C_R_ ?
User Interface: yeah ,
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: other entertainment devices .
Project Manager: Does everyone agree with this ? Does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ?
Industrial Designer: Um , {vocalsound} I was just wondering about the , what , what Genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . And that would probably , um , I d , well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . I suppose having that would complicate it a lot more .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And limit the design {gap} . Do you think ?
Marketing: Yeah , I think I agree with the single design thing for now , because we're trying to do so much , that if we're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it's also multi also multifunctional , um , we're gonna go over budget for one thing .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah . That's true . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah . And with this we'll have more room in the budget probably to make a more original design .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: We'll have more money to go into the design side of it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Yeah .
Project Manager: Alright . Sounds great .
Marketing: Mm , 'kay .
Project Manager: Alright , well , um ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: are you ready for your presentation Genevieve ?
Marketing: Yes I am .
Project Manager: Fabulous . Except you're not hooked up to the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I'm not hooked up , but other than that , completely ready . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Great .
Marketing: Okay . Okay . Oh . I just lost my microphone .
Project Manager: {gap} No problem ,
Marketing: Just a moment .
Project Manager: we can {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . So I'll be discussing the functional requirements of this remote control . Um , and I'll give you a little briefing on what that means exactly . Um , if you all remember from the email we got before our very first uh kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? The functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . Um , so what I'll be talking about now is the equivalent for a remote control . Um , so basically what needs and desires are to be fulfilled . Um , I've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , um , and some internet research . And I'll show you my findings . Oh , and firstly I wanted to remind you about our company motto and purpose . So we believe in providing international market with fashionable products . Um , hence our motto , we put the fashion in electronics . So I think that should be our priority here . Um , and we should also be looking to trends in clothing and interior design . Not just in electronic fashion . So that it's something that fits in the household .
Project Manager: I'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ?
Marketing: Um , we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Any trends that are going on in , in the public , even media ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: you know who's famous , what T_V_ shows are being watched ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: um , to influence our remote control . Okay , so the findings . Um , seventy five percent of users of remote controls find them ugly . Which is a , quite a significant number .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um , the other twenty five percent didn't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . Eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . Current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user .
Project Manager: I'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . You mean that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control ?
Marketing: Yeah , they're willing , they're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: As opposed to your basic , you know , oval black , all same size button remote control .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Yeah .
Marketing: Um , so it is something that people care about . It's not , it's not ignored in the household . Um , seventy five percent of remote control users said that they zap a lot . Zapping meaning they go through channels a lot .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: They're you know thumb-masters . Um , and fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons . That A very small amount . Thought that was interesting .
Project Manager: Alright , so it might be very appealing if , um , we have very concise buttons .
Industrial Designer: Mm . {gap} the single function .
Project Manager: And another thing with um lots of surfing , we'd probably have to work on something that could be um a lot more durable ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: because I find with um channel-changers that , um , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they're printed on the button .
Marketing: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah that's a good point .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: And actually to go with that , I'm gonna give you some statistics on the uh relevancy of the buttons , how much they're used . And uh how important the uh users find them . So the power button , obviously , in an hour is only used once . Hopefully the person's not turning on and off the T_V_ . Um , but the relevance of that button is nine out of ten . So people wanna be able to turn on the T_V_ with the remote control . Um , as opposed to standing up and turning on the television set . Channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times on average per hour .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's a huge amount . This is the most important button . Um , so obviously when commercials come on they're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that's not gonna run down . Relevance of that button , our users found was uh ten , ten out of ten . Uh , ditto for volume selection , so ten out of ten . And it's used on average four times an hour . Not as much as channel selection , but still significant . Um , audio settings is used on average zero point eight times an hour . Relevance is two . Screen settings , which means brightness , colour etcetera , zero point five times an hour . Um , and relevance of one point five . We're getting to specific statistics here . Teletext , um , now I'm not too clear on what that is . I don't know if you can help me . Flipping pages .
User Interface: It's um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Is that {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's like the news . Or like information .
User Interface: It has {disfmarker} T_V_ has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and what's on .
Marketing: So like a running banner , underneath {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No it's a button that you press , and then you , uh , like a menu pops up .
User Interface: No , li Yeah .
Project Manager: I haven't used it before
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh .
Industrial Designer: It's like {disfmarker}
User Interface: And you have page numbers like for the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it'll come up .
Industrial Designer: It's like very basic internet . Sort of ,
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Very basic internet , yeah .
Industrial Designer: um {disfmarker}
User Interface: But you have {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . Like tells you the weather , and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . But you have no interaction back with it , you know .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Like the internet you can send emails and {disfmarker} You've no interaction .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's just information that um , like television timetables , what's on , what's on now , what's on next , on every channel , and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Alright . Well I guess I'm not with it , because I wasn't {disfmarker} But it's , it's being used fourteen times an hour . Um , and has a r a high relevance of six point five . So it looks like something that we're gonna want to do some research on and include on our remote control .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Um , channel settings . Zero point zero one times an hour . Relevance of three . Channel settings .
User Interface: Uh , probably just tuning in the channels , would it be ?
Marketing: P Sorry . Changing the channels ?
User Interface: Tuning them in at the very start . You know if you get a new T_V_ set , you tune in all the channels ,
Industrial Designer: To get the right reception and picture , I suppose .
User Interface: do you th do you think ?
Marketing: Oh , okay .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Okay .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Um , so it's not used very often , but people still find it relevant . Okay . Um , biggest frustrations of uh the people that we interviewed . Remote controls are often lost somewhere . So that was already discussed by Poppy . How we could have a , an alarm system so that people can find it . Um , takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: So it should be very user-friendly , you know . People know what to do very quickly . Um , remote controls are bad for R_S_I_ . {vocalsound} {gap}
Industrial Designer: Repetitive strain injury .
User Interface: Repeti Uh .
Marketing: Ah .
Industrial Designer: I think .
Marketing: Is that what it is ? People with arthritis and such ?
Project Manager: That's rather sad . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um , maybe our
Industrial Designer: Oh , I'm guessing that's what it is . I'm not {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , yeah . I think it is .
Marketing: designers can look into that . Um , buttons that don't require , you know , very firm pushing , if they respond .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Yeah .
Marketing: But we'll have to also avoid , you know , buttons responding to the slightest touch as well . That's a problem .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . It is .
Marketing: Okay . Did you guys uh get that one down ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: Um {vocalsound} okay , here's some ideas for you . A large percentage of the public would pay for voice recognition on the remote controls . So I'll show you some numbers here . Um , so the youngest age group , fifteen to twenty five . Ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control . Um , and you can see that number decreases a bit with ol s Interestingly enough , twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount . Um , that would , are willing to pay extra . So I guess we're gonna have to figure out what age group we're , we're targeting , and if and if voice recognition is something we wanna look into . And if we have the budget for it . Um , if we are targeting young adults , it looks like something that would pay off . Seeing as ninety percent , over ninety percent would pay for it .
Project Manager: I agree with um {disfmarker} if we're targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into . Um , financially and and functionally .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um , and especially if we are um trying to be trendy , go with fashions , things like that .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Um , ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably won't be as concerned .
Marketing: So that , that's a whole other field of research . I don't know if it'd be , if we'd still have a remote , or if you're talking to your television and saying change channel .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um and depending on how many members you have in households .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So it m it may be too complicated for us , but it's something to keep in mind anyway .
Project Manager: Yeah . And something that might further complicate it is that the T_V_ makes noise itself .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Right .
Project Manager: Wonder if it would have {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And if there was conversation in the room at the same time ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: although in theory it doesn't tend to be when you're watching television ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but {vocalsound} {gap} could be very difficult to get the specific uh design .
Project Manager: {gap} Yeah . If we're looking for a simplistic design , if {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: We need to decide if that is our um intention is , is a simplistic design .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Mm .
Project Manager: Um , because if , if it is then I think voice , um voice-activated {disfmarker}
Marketing: It looks like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: because if people can activate the television with their voice then they won't be using a , they won't be talking into a remote , I'm sure .
Marketing: It'd be like the ultimate remote . {gap} Um {vocalsound} okay . And th the last thing here was a , an L_C_D_ screen . So , I mean voice recognition might be a little too extreme for us . Not practical . Um an L_C_D_ screen though might be something that , you know , you can shift through pages kind of li the way this PowerPoint is working .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So that you don't have so many buttons to deal with .
Project Manager: Um , I don't know what an L_C_D_ screen is .
Marketing: Oh sorry , just , just a screen , like a computer screen . S Or like um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mobile phone .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Or {disfmarker} Like an alarm clock . You'd have an L_C_D_ versus just a , a normal clock .
Industrial Designer: What , what would appear on the screen ?
Project Manager: I have no idea still . {vocalsound} I'm sorry . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh just like an electronic screen . As opposed to just buttons . There would be like a little , like on {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh , on the remote . Okay .
Marketing: Yeah . Like on the top of a cellphone , the the little L_C_D_ screen .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Um , now that's , I , I dunno exactly what exactly we'd put on there . I guess the channel that you're on , the v the volume setting .
User Interface: Yeah . Could it it {disfmarker} It would be good if it had the actual programme that was on , and what was next . But that would probably be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Like linked in with the teletext ,
User Interface: Yeah . That would be good , yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: or sort of like an teletext at your fingers , without having to access that through the television .
User Interface: Yeah . Might be quite expensive to do that though .
Industrial Designer: Mm , Yeah . Could be . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well I guess that's something we can all take back to our respective research .
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um , and finally , whoops , my personal preferences and thoughts . Um , I think our priority really should be unique design . Um , we want something that people want in their home . Every remote control looks the same , so uh in my opinion it should be , um , user-friendly and unique . So the other stuff might be a little too , a little too gadgety for some people .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Um , I th myself , voice recognition kind of scares me off .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So if we're , if we're aiming to make this an international university , universally accepted product {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um , and for all , the other thing is like age market . I mean if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds , we could go for the fancy stuff . But if we wanna make fifty million , and and have everyone want this remote control , we should maybe stick to the basics .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five Euros to spend on a remote control . Like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control , when they're just starting out
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and , yeah .
Marketing: Right . And we have to keep in mind the , the reliability of our research . I mean , you know , a sixteen year old boy would say , yeah I'd pay extra for voice recognition , until they realise that's three months allowance .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um , so I I think , I think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more .
User Interface: Early twenties , that's the kind of age group .
Project Manager: Yeah . And if one of the largest , uh , or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control ,
User Interface: Twenties .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: I'm sure that something like an L_C_D_ screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Complicated jus complicating things even fo Mm .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Alright .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Okay . That's it for the market research .
Project Manager: Okay . Before we go into uh more discussion on {gap} we want this design to look like , I've received some information from the management that will affect some of our decisions . Um , for one thing , because {disfmarker} Having controls with D_V_D_ , V_C_R_ , that sort of thing , would really complicate the design of the remote control . Um , we've decided not to include them and make it a specific , just a specific television um function . Which is good as , as we've sort of decided that we would like to go with that anyway . Um , for many reasons . So um we have that decision sort of made for us . Another thing that might um affect other decisions is that um the management feels that teletext is outdated , because more people are using the internet now . And so uh we won't concern ourselves with um navigating the teletext option .
Industrial Designer: Can I just interrupt ?
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Would you like to plug in your {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Maybe we can do the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , sure .
Industrial Designer: Have you got a PowerPoint or not ?
Project Manager: Yeah I do . I'm looking at {disfmarker} looking at it right now .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Thanks .
Marketing: There you go .
Project Manager: {gap} thank you .
Marketing: Oh , come back screen .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm . {gap}
Industrial Designer: Were they , was the management suggesting use of the internet rather than teletext , or just avoiding both altogether ?
Project Manager: Um , well , I mean we don't have the resources or or possibility of using the internet with the remote control ,
Industrial Designer: {gap} Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: but um they were just pretty much saying that the teletext would not be used .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Yeah . Okay .
Project Manager: Alright , and another thing . This is for the design , the design of the product is that um we wanna create , um more of a sense that people know that this is from our company . So , um , all the remote controls must have our um {disfmarker} We'll incorporate our logo and colour in in some way .
Industrial Designer: Right . Yeah .
Project Manager: So , um , perhaps um our logo on the bottom , or wherever you feel like it would look good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Okay .
Project Manager: Um , it doesn't have to be the colour of our um of our company
Industrial Designer: Just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but , another thing is that , um
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we need to , we probably would have to have that colour and , and logo decided upon . Um , I'm assuming that we already have one , but for the purposes of this meeting I , I wasn't offered a , like a type of logo or colour , so if that could be um somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Work on that .
Marketing: It's probably R_ R_R_ in yellow . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: The little R_ R_ yellow thing ? Okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , I think .
Project Manager: Real Reaction ? Okay . Um , yes , those are the changes . Um , so , now we need to discuss , um and come to a decision on our remote control functions , of , of how this is going to be . I'm just going to look at my notes for a second . Um , we have to decide on a target group and the functions of the remote control . So , um , we already know that it'll just be for the television .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: It'll {disfmarker} It won't have teletext . But um , you know , we could discuss um those other options that you brought up , Genevieve .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Okay , so I {disfmarker} Are we going to write off the L_C_D_ option ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Is that how most people feel about that ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay . So no L_C_D_ , no teletext , and no voice recognition .
User Interface: I think it would be annoying though if {disfmarker} I don't use teletext that much , but if it was on your T_V_ , you'd want to be able to use it , if {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but another thing is that if we're reaching an international crowd , um , I know for one that in North America there is no such thing as teletext , so it'd be really superfluous .
User Interface: You'd {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: So is it just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Never heard of it .
User Interface: Okay . Alright .
Project Manager: Yeah . I don't know about other countries besides the U_K_ .
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: Do you know if anywhere else has it ?
Industrial Designer: I don't know .
User Interface: I don't know .
Industrial Designer: More research required , I think .
User Interface: I don't know . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But if {disfmarker} Was it a management decision that we're having {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It was a management decision ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: so it's , it's pretty much out of our hands at this point .
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Okay then .
Project Manager: 'Kay . So , I guess we're looking at something rather simple .
Marketing: Um , well I guess , just from my findings it looks like we wanna minimise buttons .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: Um .
Industrial Designer: Minimal {disfmarker}
Marketing: And the {disfmarker} What was the word they used ? F findability is important .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . I think we should definitely go ahead with the alarm system idea that you had .
Industrial Designer: Yeah okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: 'Cause I'm sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . The same signalling .
Project Manager: the same signal through that and it could just like make a little beeping noise .
Industrial Designer: I mean {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's not that expensive to do .
Industrial Designer: Or vibrate just the same as a mobile phone . Like you just a , a buzz or something .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah . Okay . I like that idea .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Would you be able to , um , put the little device anywhere ? {vocalsound} 'Cause uh isn't our remote control for all T_V_s , so
Industrial Designer: If {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: you'd ha
Industrial Designer: Do you mean the the link between the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , with the button that you pressed .
Project Manager: Yeah . The button {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well , if the button was actually on {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Minor detail there .
User Interface: C 'cause then it would only be a applicable to one T_V_ set , so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere , or something .
Industrial Designer: Maybe {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , it would have t
Industrial Designer: Maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be um yeah not very obtrusive .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Obviously something small that's {disfmarker} Yeah , that's a good point .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Then it wouldn't , it probably wouldn't be able to use {disfmarker} It would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control I guess , but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , okay .
User Interface: Would it need a battery then ?
Project Manager: Maybe , um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Pr probably .
Project Manager: Probably , I mean .
Industrial Designer: Unless it could be {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's your department you'll have to sort that out .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Um , unless some way , it could have some universal connection to like the socket , the same socket that the T_V_'s supplied from . I mean the power for the T_V_ .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , you'll have to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So , mm , more research into that one .
Project Manager: Yeah , you'll have to investi Do some research on that ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: alright ? Great . Um , alright , and I'm sure that , um um , the glow-in-the-dark , fluorescent , whatever , system , um is a go ahead . Is everyone interested in that ?
Industrial Designer: Y
Marketing: On the buttons ?
User Interface: I I like the light up suggestion . I think that would be better .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: 'Cause you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time , so
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {gap} it doesn't {disfmarker}
User Interface: I would go for {disfmarker}
Marketing: It could it could be a tactile thing as well . Um right , if w if we're minimising buttons , we might be able to make them actually larger . And there's something on it . S you know like up arrow down arrow for , for volume .
Industrial Designer: Like a raised {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um , and I don't know what we could do for , for channels . S
User Interface: Well just the numbers could be embossed , couldn't it ? Like raised .
Marketing: The numbers themselves .
User Interface: Yeah . Could be raised .
Marketing: But then the like up button and down button for the channel , channel changing .
User Interface: Just little arrows , that you could feel , maybe ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: I just thought that {gap} it , it might be sucking more battery power , if there , if it is a light up . I'm not sure .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: That's true .
Project Manager: But I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And also y , uh Heather you mentioned before , um like how it should be accessible to everybody .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um , so like big b um buttons , {gap} for people you are visually impaired . The glow-in-the-dark or light up won't make any difference anyway .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So like you say tactile might be better , because it'd be more available to everybody .
User Interface: That , I think that's good , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Could we somehow {disfmarker} We could , may , possibly , sorry , incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glow-in-the-dark material .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: 'Cause I d I don't think that glow-in-the-dark material , um , like the actual soft plastic , um , costs that much more than other colours .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: No , it's not these days .
User Interface: No , I wouldn't say so .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I mean , it's quite easily accessible .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: I guess the other option , referring to the battery thing is , you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something , when you're s and then it goes ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: That's good {disfmarker} Yeah that a good idea .
Marketing: so if , if you're like changing the volume during a movie . I know , I'm thinking of mostly when you're watching a movie you turn all the lights off right .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: And you don't want to turn on the lights , {vocalsound} to turn it down , because there's suddenly an explosion , and it's gonna wake up the baby .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Um , so if you touch the button , it kind of reactivates it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: It lights up for {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: That , yeah , that's a good idea .
Marketing: On self timer .
Industrial Designer: So self-timed lighting .
Project Manager: Alright we have five minutes left
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um , I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: um , for the meeting , but I think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close . Um , what was {disfmarker} I missed the last moment , reading that . What were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ?
Marketing: Oh , just if it was kinda the same way that a cell You know how a cellphone will light up for about ten , fifteen seconds when you touch a button , after having not touched it for a while .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Um , if instead of a constant light up on the , on the remote control , if it lights up for ten seconds when it's touched again .
Project Manager: Mm . So it could be any button that would be pressed .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , and you , you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit , and it gives a faint glow .
Industrial Designer: So , self-timed {disfmarker}
Marketing: So if you have all the lights off in your living room , you'll , you'll temporarily see it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Because usually you're not fooling around for it for more than what ten seconds .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's probably feasible .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So , do you think that we should do the lighting up thing , and the glow-in-the-dark thing , and the shape of the numbers ? Do we have to kind of decide what we're gonna do with this .
Industrial Designer: I think the shape of the numbers is a really good idea .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay .
Industrial Designer: And I think that's un unique as well .
User Interface: Yeah . For visually impaired , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I mean , I haven't seen that . And as you're saying like numbers can wear off if they're just sort of like painted on , you know printed .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah . And it could {gap} , if it's that softer rubber material it'll be , maybe , um , uh , better for people with um els no
Industrial Designer: {gap} durable .
Project Manager: what's it called , R_S_I_ , what was it that we were talking about ?
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Oh right , the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah instead of like hard buttons .
Industrial Designer: Repetitive strain injury .
Project Manager: Okay . Um , did we want to go for the glow-in-the-dark look ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ?
User Interface: If {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Like should we do both ? Or we can have one or the other ? Because it might , for , for our design purposes , I mean , the lighting up thing might be better because glow-in-the-dark material has a funny kinda colour .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And it might not go with different like face plates that we might come up with .
Marketing: I was gonna say , {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Exactly . It the {disfmarker} it might be perceived as tacky , glow-in-the-dark .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: It's kind of like Eighties neon-style .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , and we could {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um , whereas we're trying to be trendy and fashionable .
Industrial Designer: Yeah there are now like loads , or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well ,
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: which could like link in with the company colours . Like it could be blue or green or yellow ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: or like we've just limited t with the , just ordinary phosphorescent so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right . Alright . So we've decided on lighting up things .
User Interface: I was thinking though , if it was glow-in-the-dark , you could put the um Real Reaction symbol as glow-in-the-dark , and then it would be constantly advertised .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Every time the , that it lit up , you c that could light up as well .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Or , or the , whate
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {gap} Yeah .
Project Manager: But with the same thing , I mean . If you touch the button and then it could be , it could be lit up as well .
Marketing: That's true .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Okay .
Project Manager: Is {disfmarker} Are you okay with that ? Okay . Cool .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Alright . So I think that um that completes most of our um our more uh practical decisions .
Industrial Designer: Is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And now it's up to designing . And um making sure that this can be feasible . And do you have anything {disfmarker}
Marketing: What um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you have anything to say ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh sorry . Yeah well , I was just gonna throw out there the thought about um personalising the remote control . Um , it , you , 'cause you mentioned face plates . So I I dunno if there's something that diff , you know like five different face plates . I dunno if this will start making it more complicated , but it could increase the popularity of the , of the remote . Um
Industrial Designer: Okay . Like you can have changeable um mobile covers or something .
User Interface: Oh yeah . Interchangeable thing ?
Marketing: Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Like an iPod or something ?
User Interface: That would be good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Exactly , like an iPod .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Exactly .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Or , or like mobile ph .
Project Manager: Like a cellphone ? Yeah .
Marketing: And I dunno if we'd want to go with like T_V_ show themes or something . Like a Bart Simpson faceplate .
User Interface: Yeah , and then that would be uh more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well .
Marketing: {vocalsound} But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Y Could buy extra {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Accessories .
Marketing: Exactly . You could start out with three , and if , if we hit it big then we can add some on .
Industrial Designer: Person {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Well , that's great .
User Interface: That's a good idea . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . I think that we should incorporate that .
Industrial Designer: Interchangeable .
Project Manager: 'Cause that wouldn't be very expensive at all .
Industrial Designer: Um , als
Project Manager: You'd just get one mould ,
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: throw some plastic in it , you know . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Interchan And also possible {disfmarker} I mean , uh , we could gain out of that by advertising certain T_V_ shows , or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Well , that might be com problematic with um copyright issues .
User Interface: Oh yeah .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: So , if it takes off then we'll , we'll , we'll try that out .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . But if we , there is {disfmarker}
User Interface: If w
Industrial Designer: Yeah . We could {disfmarker} Um , the environmental factor , we didn't bring that up again .
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: We'll have to do more research . Like as of yet , that has nothing to do with , um , the way it'll look . Um , does it need to be reached a de
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Do we need to reach a decision on that right now ?
Industrial Designer: Um , I've {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Because we need to investigate the financial implications .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Is it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Let's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Does it need to be uh decided on now ? Or should we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think we could probably leave that 'til later on , then .
Project Manager: Okay . Good . Alright then . Anyone else have anything more to say before we close ?
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: Alright , well . Let's have lunch and we'll discuss this later .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright ?
Industrial Designer: Okay . Thank you .
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Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Well , let's start . What are we doing ? Oops . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Ah , pinball .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . Okay . Not doing .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm . Ah . Hey . {vocalsound} Ah .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh .
Marketing: Now I have my screen back too . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Very good .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} we have presentations . So first , it's your turn .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Mine . Oh , great .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Isn't it amazing . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Huh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Very interesting .
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Industrial Designer . Interface concept .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes , well uh let's uh talk about the interface uh concept . Uh , first I'll uh I'll uh discuss the buttons we just chose , uh show you some samples , uh uh discuss some colours and design maybe , already . And uh my personal preferences . {vocalsound} Well we chose the power button to switch the television on and off . The bu uh the mute button to switch the volume on and o on and off . The channels buttons , one to nine , and uh off uh uh zero to nine , and the uh button to choose uh higher channels than nine . Uh the volume and channel quadrants , uh left and right , up and down arrows , to uh do the volume and channel . And the menu menu button to man manipulate the L_C_D_ uh display . Um , I found some uh interesting uh uh samples . Examples .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um , well uh what's pretty standard is uh that it's {disfmarker} that they're all pretty uh uh high uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Large .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . Large and and and pretty thin and uh and long .
Marketing: A lot {disfmarker} a lot of buttons buttons .
User Interface: Um , power buttons are mostly at the top uh left or right . Um , well we see the the the same uh arrows . Like there . And uh {disfmarker} Yeah , well arrow b buttons can be blue . And what's interesting is the the the icons on the buttons . Some buttons have icons like the play and stop , but we don't use that . But uh , these we we have to choose the right icons , or or letters . Uh this is the V_ for volume , but they're both uh a V_ .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So it's it's not really very uh clear what's the function of that .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Yeah . So , that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Can you go back one page ? For the uh menu , what do we use for that ? We don't have buttons for the menu .
User Interface: Uh , well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Or we may have to use channel of the volume and channel {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah . I thought that was our uh idea .
Project Manager: Okay . But {gap} uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: So , uh how {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You have to put it on the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Like this .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Or or this . And that the menu button is okay .
Project Manager: Yeah but , has to be clear that you can use the arrows .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , okay .
Marketing: Yes .
User Interface: Uh , so the {disfmarker} The icons on the arrows , as well , you mean .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Yes . The second one .
User Interface: Yeah . Uh , well that's something to uh think about . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh , maybe I'll have something in my uh presentation . And you will see it .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um , well I don't I don't know if we have to discuss this already , or in the next uh meeting .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But uh , as we have to uh to to design the the case and the whole uh remote control in our uh our our corporate uh company uh uh colours and the logo , I would uh recommend a yellow case . Uh , round edges . The logo at the bottom . And uh , well maybe each each uh set of buttons uh has uh has his own colour . So , it's good . Uh , recognisable . K so , I think .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Not too much colours .
User Interface: Uh , no . Not too much .
Project Manager: No , it's not flower power .
User Interface: But uh {disfmarker} No , no , no . But this has to be has to be trendy and uh {disfmarker} and {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: S okay .
User Interface: Uh , yeah so good uh good icons on the buttons , and uh and big buttons is my uh personal uh opinion .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: That was that .
Project Manager: Thank you . So , you're next .
Industrial Designer: I'm next , okay . {vocalsound} Yes . No . Here we go .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh , at first we will uh I will f uh say something about what younger people want ,
Marketing: {gap} Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: our uh group w uh w uh we want to uh sell our remote controls to . And then , I'll discuss what my opinion is about the costs , about uh what battery is in it , what kind of buttons also . First uh , the younger people , they want like soft mat uh materials and primary colours . Like , totally yellow , totally red . Uh , so it's visible . Uh , the shapes are curved and round , like uh you also said . Maybe it's nice to uh get a remote control not like all the other ones , straight and uh flat and long . But to give him the shape of your hand , so you {disfmarker} it's easier to use or something like that . But that's just an idea . And then , I'll have to discuss about the costs uh of all the things for the remote control . The battery , there are few options . Uh , I think the best option is to use uh the basic battery . So , everybody can buy it uh at the at the supermarket . Or use uh a k uh kinetic battery like uh within a watch . When you uh shake it a few times , it it's loaded . Uh , the the form of the remote control , I think it's also nice {gap} have it curved . And maybe like it's hand-shaped . Uh , so uh you take it here in your hand and here are the buttons . Uh material , you use plastic . Hard plastic uh because uh {gap} it won't have to burst uh like in the {disfmarker} in one time . And also rubber because the younger people like that , what we see in the research . Uh the push-buttons . We have one new thing uh discovered . It's a scroll push uh thing like a mouse . Maybe it's uh easy to use uh for the channels . When you want to go m move up , you just scroll up and click on the button , if you wanna see the next , uh if you wanna see that channel . And also for the mouse , uh for the volume , it's also uh easy to use . Just scroll a bit up , scroll a bit down . And that's also easy just w when you have a thing like this , and you get it here . You can do it with your thumb . And with your l left hand you can uh push the buttons
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: uh if you {gap} push uh channel one , you can see channel one . The electrics um with a scroll push uh button , we must use regular uh chips . There are also uh simple chips . They are uh cheaper . Um , but then we have just a basic uh uh remote control , and I think there are a lot of those uh things , and people won't buy it any more . They have seen enough of it . And you have also advanced um chips . But that's with the L_C_D_ uh screen . And the costs will increase a lot more . And I think our budget is too low to use and an L_C_D_ , and the chip who is more expensive . And maybe it's also then uh thoughtful if we u uh use uh as um different kind of uh shapes for the {disfmarker} for remote control , that we then use the primary colours . Like , you get a yellow uh remote control , red one , blue one , et cetera . You have any more questions about this ? I think the main thing is we look at the costs .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: And not too basic , not a basic remote control , who everybody already has .
Marketing: Yeah . But , thi i uh {disfmarker} This is with an L_C_D_ ? No ,
Industrial Designer: Not with an L_C_D_ .
Marketing: not .
Project Manager: No , isn't .
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: But the L_C_D_ is easy when you use the scroll uh buttons . Then you can scroll , you see what number , and then you push .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . But then , what I say , the costs will uh get a lot higher .
Project Manager: But then it's not easy to use scroll uh wheel . If you don't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Th then you'll see it on the television .
Project Manager: Hmm , yes . But then . Yeah , then you go one down one up . When you scroll .
Industrial Designer: but l when you see a menu uh on the television , it's like you see uh one to twenty , you go uh uh s scroll up , and push number tw twenty . Yeah
Project Manager: but like we said before , it has to be used on every television . Yeah So you may not be uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No . The television must do that . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Yeah , I think the younger people will have newer televisions , which can provide our uh remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah but young people have to have all their uh room . And mostly they are smaller . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes . But that won't be a problem . I think .
Project Manager: Most the times that are not advanced televisions .
Industrial Designer: No , but then we'll get to the regular uh remote controls .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And I think , what I said , everybody has them uh has them already . And they go to a uh supermarket and buy them uh for two Euros . Uh , and ge and get the most cheapest uh thing . And I think we must look further to uh to devel d develop something news .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Uh , can you give an indication in b uh in the cost difference between uh the chip with L_C_D_ or without ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I got it on my screen and it was uh higher . But I don't know uh how much higher . {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'Cause it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's important .
Marketing: I think if we have an L_C_D_ , it will also sell a lot better .
Industrial Designer: That's true .
Marketing: And that might uh bring back the costs uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But then we'll {disfmarker} I think we must discuss who {disfmarker} uh what will be better . If we have a better shape of the um remote control , or better options on it . With a scroll menu , a w scroll thing , and a L_C_D_ . And then a flat um remote control . Or , a more hand-shaped remote control , with scroll , without L_C_D_ .
Project Manager: Yeah . Maybe you can look how how much it is for the L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: I can uh look on my uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's very important .
Industrial Designer: {gap} Uh {disfmarker} Note that the push-button requires a simple chip chip . A scroll wheel requires minimally a regular chip , which is a higher price range . The display requires a advanced chip , which is which in turn is more expensive than the regular chip .
Project Manager: Yeah , more expensive . But how much ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Doesn't say . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh .
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: Huh .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: That's from my manufacturing division .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'Kay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well , thank you .
Industrial Designer: Yes ?
Marketing: My turn ?
Project Manager: Next .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm . So {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} Yeah . So , my uh presentation is about trend-watching . Uh , I did some trend-watching . It's very important to uh keep up with latest trends . {vocalsound} 'Cause if you don't , you won't sell . So , well how we did do that ? Uh , well we made an investigation of the market , by Trendwatchers . They uh watch in uh cities like uh Paris and Milan . Of course , well known for their uh trend {disfmarker} uh trends . And well , uh what did you find ? Uh , we have two groups , young and trendy , and the old and rich . Well th and the young and trendy , they uh they starting to like uh fruit and vegetables uh as a theme for n uh clothes , shoes , and also uh products . And um , material ? That should feel {disfmarker} have uh a spongy feeling . And to get a feeling for what it is , uh here is an image of it . Then the old and rich . They like uh dark colours , and simple , recognisable shapes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And um , they also like uh familiar material , uh especially wood . Now , another picture .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: To get a feeling for this . Well , uh then already come to my personal preferences . We uh aim at the younger market . So , we should also be uh look at their uh trends . However , with trends it's always if there's {disfmarker} it's now . It it it might last one year , and next year it be {disfmarker} uh can be totally different . And I think we want to sell our product for longer than one year . So , we m must not just only look at what the trend is now , as it might be totally different next year . So , that's uh one thing to keep in mind .
Industrial Designer: Changing covers . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . Any questions ?
Industrial Designer: Nope .
Project Manager: No . It's clear .
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: So now , it's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Ah , let's see . Now , w we have to decide {vocalsound} Well , we have to decide on the concept . So , we have to look at {disfmarker} 'S next . Components and user interface concept . So {disfmarker} Now , we have to make some concept . Maybe one of you can paint it on the board . First , uh user interface .
Industrial Designer: Uh , uh-uh . How w how we how we make it ? Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes , a concept on uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Shouldn't we first discuss about like what w we all {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , but maybe we can paint it . Uh , what do we want ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but if I paint with {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I'll paint . Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Something like this ? Or {disfmarker} Shapes or {disfmarker} What do we need ?
User Interface: Mm , yes . What ?
Marketing: Can make several uh concepts .
Project Manager: Yes , okay .
Marketing: We have this , and we had the idea of an um a more uh uh uh like sh in the shape of your hand .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: More like something {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah I I I uh {disfmarker} yes . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: M like {disfmarker} Yeah I can't dr I can't draw it .
Project Manager: And you have to .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I have to .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I'm not a designer . It's more {gap} three D_ . Like , um when you have a part here . This is the remote control . And then you have something like th this under it . So , it's easier to get it like this .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} It's like a gun . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: A g {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , it has to be soft ?
Marketing: Mm . {gap} .
Industrial Designer: And it has to be soft , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . And uh , the buttons ?
Industrial Designer: So , you can squeeze in it and {disfmarker} Sorry ?
Project Manager: Buttons .
Industrial Designer: Buttons on top of it . And here . The scrolling . You can do it with your thumb .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No , it won't .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But but i that's the only scroll uh button on it then ?
Industrial Designer: But now we use one scroll button and the other one is here . One till uh uh zero till nine .
User Interface: Yeah , okay .
Project Manager: But , well there one for the sound and one for the channels .
User Interface: But but how {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And the b
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . How {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah ? Or two buttons .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Uh , two scroll uh wheels .
Marketing: And i if we go to uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: If uh {disfmarker} 'Kay c If we do {disfmarker} If we use one , then we'll have just a switch on it , and you'll just switch it , and now it's the sound to switch back
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's th that's more difficult .
Marketing: But if we have uh a me Yeah .
Project Manager: It's better in {disfmarker}
Marketing: If we have a menu , uh how do we uh choose other options ?
Industrial Designer: with the menu uh button . And then you also can scroll uh scroll in it . Just not like all the other ones , with uh this thing , and uh here an arrow , here an arrow , here an arrow , here an arrow .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Because uh , from h hundred uh {gap} remote controls , ninety nine have it .
Project Manager: But if we don't have a L_C_D_ we don't have a menu .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh , then we have it on the T_V_ , the menu .
Marketing: Uh-uh .
Project Manager: Yeah , but {vocalsound} again maybe th How do we know the T_V_ can handle it ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You don't know . So , there's no menu .
Industrial Designer: I don't know . It's like some sort of uh teletext option , but we don't have teletext . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No . So you can't use it .
Industrial Designer: And if we put an L_C_D_ thing on it , then the costs will uh be much higher .
Project Manager: Okay , we make two concepts . One with L_C_D_ . One without L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay . But you all like this kind of thing . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Good concept . But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: With the scroll button .
Project Manager: That's one .
Industrial Designer: And and this one has to be soft .
Marketing: Uh-uh .
Industrial Designer: And this has to be harder , because when it falls , it mu mu must not burst . Or some kind of rubber around it .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: It's one . Two . Number two .
User Interface: And you can and you can uh make the the power button as a trigger .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Like uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ah that's nice .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Here . Trigger . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No . {vocalsound} But when you handle it , you put it on and off .
User Interface: Just to uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's not good to use .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , but {vocalsound} I'll zap .
User Interface: Oh , like a {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fuck . Out . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No , it's not good .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Now , second concept . One with L_C_D_ , one without L_C_D_ . Then uh {disfmarker} Paint it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Paint it ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: With the scroll thing on , like this ?
Project Manager: One with two scroll buttons and one with without . Yeah . Uh , one with a with a menu , and one without a menu .
Industrial Designer: So ?
Project Manager: And the one with with a menu has an L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Draw it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Unbelievable .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do I have to do everything . Blank . You have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Not so difficult .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: But if you put {disfmarker} push the the menu button {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh , that's the menu . There for the L_C_D_ screen .
User Interface: Yeah , wh what {disfmarker} Yes , but you don't know which of the scroll buttons you have to choose .
Project Manager: You have to {disfmarker} For the menu .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . One that way . And one that way . So {disfmarker} Then it depends on the cost . S On and off .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But is it easy to use ? When you have it on your left side , and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: When it's not too big . Just like a a phone .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: M uh yeah , maybe it's better if the uh scroll-wheels are um
Industrial Designer: Separate , more separate , h yeah .
Marketing: more separate , yeah .
Project Manager: Yes , okay .
Marketing: Like , you have the menu button in between uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . On the left a scroll button , and on the right a scroll button . But would it be easy to use then ? If it's like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have a big uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Very good . Is it better ? When you uh {gap} the menu , you have to go there there there there .
Industrial Designer: I also think this concept is not what the young people were looking for .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: They were like round curves , uh different uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , okay . That's that's the outside . But now the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay , okay , okay .
Project Manager: First the buttons .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Think we have we have now two buttons missing . The uh um {disfmarker} The mute button .
Project Manager: Sorry ?
Marketing: We have two buttons missing . The mute button . And um , the {disfmarker} to to uh {disfmarker} have to uh {disfmarker} numbers
Project Manager: Mute . And the other .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Not so difficult .
Marketing: {vocalsound} But , uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Personally , I think two scroll buttons uh aren't easy to handle .
Project Manager: But how do you wanna solve it ?
Industrial Designer: With the switch button .
Project Manager: Yeah but on the menu that's not uh easy .
Industrial Designer: No
Project Manager: Then you go down , you switch , you go into the right , you switch , you go down .
Industrial Designer: like uh {disfmarker} Oh , you mean like that .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh , then you can also have like uh th um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: A joystick .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , and joystick , I think .
Project Manager: Yeah . But is it uh {disfmarker} Does that break , a joystick ? Or a small one just like in a laptop .
Industrial Designer: Yeah like in a laptop , s uh s some sort of thing . A little bit bigger , with easier thi
Project Manager: Mean , it's better . But how expensive it is ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't know .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh . Why do I pay you for ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um , well {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Better ideas . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Or no scroll uh things . Just a shape . And {disfmarker} {gap} No , no . It won't work .
Project Manager: For the young peoples I think scroll button's good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Uh-huh .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Think we have to keep them .
Industrial Designer: Or a remote control more like joystick .
Project Manager: Yeah , but is it {disfmarker} That's not expensive than uh {disfmarker} Joystick is better . A small one .
Industrial Designer: A small one like this , like a Nintendo uh k
Project Manager: No just like in a
Industrial Designer: Playstation thing .
Project Manager: a laptop . Small , round .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then it's not so big .
Industrial Designer: No , no , no . I mean the the shape of the remote control .
Project Manager: Oh the sh Yeah , but then you can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Just like a Playstation thing . Yeah .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Maybe , if it's possible , {vocalsound} it's not too expensive , I think a joystick is better .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: A small one . So , please look at it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No , that's okay , I got {disfmarker}
Marketing: And on the L_C_D_ , how much it costs ? Uh , it costs extra ?
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they're not uh in details .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's more expensive or less expensive , huh ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah we {disfmarker} I think you get it . So , after this meeting you have half an hour to uh fix it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} Then I have to come with it .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: I got my personal costs . I I don't I don't know the costs .
Project Manager: Your problem . Not mine .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Then I'll uh make something up .
Project Manager: Okay . So , do we have other concepts ? Then for the components , we use a normal battery . Then it's {disfmarker} Ch cheapest way , I think .
User Interface: Mm , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , or the or the kinetic uh with normal battery .
Project Manager: No , no kinetic . Kinetic is uh ch makes it more expensive .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I think it's uh , yeah , more expensive . Yeah .
Project Manager: So we use a normal battery .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: Chip . Depends on the L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: Depends on the scroll .
Project Manager: Scroll .
Industrial Designer: If we use a scroll , then we have the uh regular chip . If we don't use a scroll , then we can use the simple chip .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And uh , we {disfmarker} If you use the L_C_D_ , we have to
Industrial Designer: Uh the most expensive .
Project Manager: Yes , okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So , depends on the L_C_D_ and the scroll .
Industrial Designer: If we {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: If we {disfmarker} No okay scroll-wheel . So , I have this . So , it will be uh the advanced chip , or the uh regu uh or the regular chip .
Project Manager: Okay . So , uh the shapes of the design depends on the L_C_D_ and {disfmarker} But , it has to be small . I think .
Industrial Designer: Or shall we just put it on the pistol thing ? And then just put also on L_C_D_ on it ?
Project Manager: If you have pistol , it {disfmarker} L_C_D_'s not easy . Y y {vocalsound} Yeah but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Just use your thumb .
Project Manager: If you use a phone .
Industrial Designer: If you {disfmarker} Yeah . I use my thumb .
Project Manager: {gap} k Yeah , but but then you have it . Like , th if you have pistol , you have it so . And the screen is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well , then you have to keep it this way to look at the screen .
Industrial Designer: If you have a joystick on {disfmarker} No , if you have like uh an uh uh a ni a uh Playstation uh game controller .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And you move up , f forward , down , left . Then you have uh just , yeah , a little bit curved . It's not just uh {vocalsound} straight .
Project Manager: No . No , no .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's how we use it . That's why they make joysticks like that , I think .
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but then you look forward .
Marketing: Uh , yeah , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And then you can y
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ?
Project Manager: N well , if you have to look at it .
Marketing: If you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: 'Kay . Here's our designer .
Marketing: If we have uh then something standing here , with the L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Then it goes like this .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , why not .
Project Manager: If th n well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's for the younger people .
Project Manager: Yes , of course .
Industrial Designer: It's something new . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's good good .
User Interface: It's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But the {disfmarker} um , it may not break .
Industrial Designer: Now we put uh rubber around it .
Project Manager: Okay . If that's possible .
Marketing: Um , Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Hard plastic , uh the shape , and around it hard uh around it rubber . And the uh the hand shape is also rubber .
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Or you can uh turn it inside .
Marketing: {gap} I can't see the {gap} . But , uh the easy of {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: But that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: uh , th the ease of use wasn't uh the most important uh aspect of it .
Industrial Designer: Huh .
User Interface: No , that's true .
Marketing: Uh , for us it's about to sell it . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah of course .
Industrial Designer: This is something new .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Then this is the design . And the buttons are on the next page . So , depends on the cost . So ,
Industrial Designer: Costs are okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} um we have one minute .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} One .
Project Manager: I think . No .
Marketing: No . You have more .
Project Manager: More . Seven .
Marketing: You have still ten .
Project Manager: Next meeting . Thirty minutes . So hurry up .
Industrial Designer: Oh , that's us together .
Project Manager: You two stay here . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Paint it .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Now you have to .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think it's clear . Check your mail . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: It has to be ready in the next meeting . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Cookie .
Marketing: What ? Okay .
Project Manager: Next meeting is called the detailed design . So {disfmarker} Everyth everything has to be ready . Thanks for your attention . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: See you at the next meeting .
Industrial Designer: Bye bye .
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Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education and apprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, Cabinet Secretary, we'll go straight to questions.
Kirsty Williams AM: Of course.
Lynne Neagle AM: And the first questions are from Julie Morgan.
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair, and bore da. I was going to ask some general questions about the value of the baccalaureate. Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers?
Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as the Cabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledge and skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureate does just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's review into the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great deal from it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particular qualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what that is and many of us will have done—some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification—there's always a job of work to do to communicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement—and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and that has suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake.
Julie Morgan AM: It's great that you've been around listening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to the ones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. Some teachers feed back around the workload issues associated with the Welsh baccalaureate. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on their well-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that taking the Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised.
Julie Morgan AM: And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification—I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work.
Julie Morgan AM: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you—?
Kirsty Williams AM: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students' experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you, 'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues—everything from the environment to their experience in school—and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac—I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said, 'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.' Students from a school seven miles away—just seven miles away—said, 'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.' And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience.
Julie Morgan AM: I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that—. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of 'Successful Futures' and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that—. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, did you have a supplementary?
Suzy Davies AM: Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of—which year am I in?—year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective.
Andrew Clark: I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been—sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you.
Andrew Clark: No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Siân Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates—
Sian Gwenllian AM: Ten years?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students' work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work—is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers?—but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between—if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency?
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be.
Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers' voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Siân, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together—everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors' roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about, 'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.' So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification.
Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification—employers' voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you.
Kirsty Williams AM: Not just on the Welsh bac.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers' roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Siân that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground?
Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things—everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know—sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one—
Lynne Neagle AM: She wasn't. Angharad wasn't there.
Kirsty Williams AM: She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from 'Welsh bac' and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would—I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous—no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level—because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification—that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac—by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are.
Kirsty Williams AM: And, of course, there would be—. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills—. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way.
Dawn Bowden AM: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different—it's not the same as an A-level—so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades—you know, offers—for students that they see that in the same way as well.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities.
Suzy Davies AM: Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately—it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now—that some students were being told, 'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.' I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said, 'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my "Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said, 'Under no circumstances are you to do that—no, that's not allowed.' This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be—
Suzy Davies AM: It's gaming.
Kirsty Williams AM: —denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. Cheers.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said: 'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.' Can you reflect on that?
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't agree.
Hefin David AM: Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University.
Kirsty Williams AM: No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University—
Hefin David AM: Who has influence over students.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University. And, actually, Cardiff University—indeed, all Welsh universities—accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree.
Hefin David AM: Nick Brazil, the deputy principal of Gower College, said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group don't value the Welsh bac.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't know where he's getting that from. I have made it a personal commitment to establish this with universities. I have visited both Cambridge and Oxford. I spoke again to Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, Southampton, St Andrews, only last week, who were exhibiting at the Seren conference. I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac. They have a high regard for the Welsh baccalaureate in a variety of ways. First of all, for many of those universities, for many of their courses, they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an A-level. If they don't, there are some courses, for instance, where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level. So, for instance, rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A, A, B, they would offer a Welsh student A, B, B, plus a Welsh bac, thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university, either with or without their Welsh bac qualification. Even for those universities that don't use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer—and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge—they value it as part of a student's personal statement; they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university; and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from A-level work to university-type work, which, if you can imagine, is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning. So, I just don't recognise that in some way Welsh students are being disadvantaged. The message I get consistently from universities is that there are significant advantages to Welsh learners taking this qualification.
Hefin David AM: Okay. You can not recognise it, but that is contrary to the evidence that we've received. I'm not saying that the evidence is conclusive, but it actually demonstrates inconsistency. So, would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application?
Kirsty Williams AM: You would know better than anybody, Hefin, that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions. What I'm telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that, whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers, consistently, absolutely across the board, all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students.
Hefin David AM: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we've received, that would be contrary to what you've just said. So, I think we'd end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view. So, would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective?
Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out first-hand—not via my officials, but first-hand—from those institutions, their views. So, this is not something that is hearsay; I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities. We have written to all vice-chancellors—last year—with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications. That will become increasingly important as we see a divergence between English and Welsh qualifications. But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate, whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer, the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification. If you've heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially, rather than from somebody who has e-mailed in, then I would be pleased to look at that evidence, because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin is not referring to an e-mail—
Hefin David AM: No, I've said that.
Lynne Neagle AM: —we did do a survey and we've also taken oral evidence.
Hefin David AM: Yes, and it's representing the evidence that we received.
Kirsty Williams AM: And I'm presenting you with the evidence that I've received.
Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee, no doubt. Let's look at some admissions offers instead then. You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate. How would you suggest that that is addressed?
Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin, each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals. What is absolutely clear to me, and if the concern is around the type of institution—. So, for instance, it is accepted as a third-grade offer in Bristol, Edinburgh, Exeter, Lancaster, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, the London School of Economics—some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities. It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University, and it is accepted in tariff-point offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England. So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification, and that is their prerogative—that's their prerogative as institutions. They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places, just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers. You know, there's a difference in universities there, isn't there? Some universities don't have unconditional offers at all; other universities—
Hefin David AM: So, what you're saying is that the problem isn't connected to the Welsh bac, it's connected with just the way that universities make offers, and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it.
Kirsty Williams AM: I’m saying there is a variety. Just like any other qualification, there is a variety in how universities use qualifications for offers. What I’m saying to you is that, in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification. They value the qualification. They think it is useful. It develops a set of skills that help students to make that transition into higher education. And therefore, I think it is a myth—I would go as far as to say that it’s a myth—that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification. Sorry, Andrew.
Hefin David AM: Okay.
Andrew Clark: Could I just add to that response? There are, obviously, differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate, which is the prime focus of this. The attitude of the universities has changed significantly since that was a graded qualification.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that has made a difference.
Andrew Clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and, therefore, as part of their personal statement, as part of their interview, the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised, even by those who don’t actually make it part of their offer. So, we’re still on a journey—that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years, but the journey is taking us to the right place, towards the right destination.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, it isn’t just about variable admissions practices across universities; it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well, which needed changing in order to improve that.
Andrew Clark: But that was changed in September 2015. When it was a 'yes'/'no' qualification, I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification.
Kirsty Williams AM: And that’s the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities.
Andrew Clark: And that was an important shift three years ago.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, last question, then: are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about?
Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification. But I am confident that the university sector, in its wide variety of forms, regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake, and they certainly don’t regard it as a detriment to students.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Siân wants to come in on this, and then I've got a question from Suzy on Seren.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just that the committee, of course, has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves, but Universities Wales, which represents the interests of universities in Wales, has rejected the committee's invitation to submit any oral or written evidence. So, can you see the dilemma we're in? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities, we hear what you're saying, but we can't get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves aren't willing to come to speak to us. Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us?
Hefin David AM: Where's the enthusiasm, Chair? Where's the enthusiasm?
Sian Gwenllian AM: And perhaps that's a sign that they don't want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it’s a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee. I would urge them to do so. All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to A-level, and all universities use it as part of their offer—Welsh universities.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but you see what our dilemma is, though, because if we can’t actually ask them directly, it's a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on? Anyway, I'll leave it at that. Thank you.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's a matter for them, and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales.
Lynne Neagle AM: We have had quite an extensive dialogue with them about it. Suzy on Seren.
Suzy Davies AM: So, just briefly, you’ve said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment, and that it’s valued by universities. But advantage isn't the same as equivalence, and we have had evidence from—I think it was Cardiff University, again, where they had students with two A-levels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students. So, even though on the face of it you've got three A-levels, those particular students aren't matching up to the expectations of a student with three A-levels. I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself. We've had evidence from FE colleges, which are now significant players in producing our Seren-style students, if you like, that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it's a distraction, effectively. What's your comment on that? Because if this is a question of communication, which I suspect you're about to tell me, one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world, but if the product you're selling isn't highly valued then you're actually just doubling the problem. So, can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five A-levels is of an advantage, and therefore, if you're asking students to carry that workload, which is a considerable workload, that's the preferred route for more able and talented students. Again, what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, is that this is a myth. What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five A-levels; they want students with three really exceptional grades at A-level and a Welsh baccalaureate. I think that's really, really an important message to get across—that it is not necessary to do four or five A-levels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities, or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. As I said, in the conversations that we have had—and there is actually some research, and I will let the committee have links to the research. There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in project-based work—and, of course, that's not just the Welsh baccalaureate, that would be the EPQ, which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England. That is an extended project—research based—qualification, very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate. The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students, and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work, project-based work, individual-led, research-based work—those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of university-type work. Therefore, that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level. They also tell me that there is a link between, for instance, being able then to use those skills to gain work experience, placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work, because, as I said, those types of skills are really, really valuable and therefore that's why they value the qualification.
Suzy Davies AM: Can I just add—? It's great that they're telling you, why aren't they telling FE?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I think it's really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five A-levels, and if that's the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac, I think we need to reflect on what's important to those universities—which is the right A-levels. I think it's really, really important that students are given the best advice about the A-levels they need to take, facilitating subjects to get into a university, and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thanks. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Actually, it's your set of questions next on universal adoption.
Suzy Davies AM: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption?
Kirsty Williams AM: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification.
Suzy Davies AM: But not an obligation—that's the bit I'm trying to get at.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, so there's a presumption. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course?
Kirsty Williams AM: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's going to take some time. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered?
Kirsty Williams AM: Not at this stage. I have no intention of pausing. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well—
Suzy Davies AM: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it.
Kirsty Williams AM: What we do know is that some schools struggle to deliver existing qualifications. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say, 'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.' What we're saying is, 'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.'
Suzy Davies AM: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered?
Kirsty Williams AM: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money—I think it was about £5 million that was going to the consortia in-year—will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching?
Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. Therefore, it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly.
Suzy Davies AM: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what I mean. There are strengths and weaknesses in all schools. It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. But we can't second-guess that.
Kevin Palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call 'the middle tier' to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning—so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. The new curriculum requires us to move in these new directions. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. Those weaknesses need to be addressed.
Suzy Davies AM: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. That was the thing that was worrying me. Anyway, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16?
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification—. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision.
Lynne Neagle AM: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges?
Kirsty Williams AM: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of, 'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'—I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels—through to, 'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.' So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around, 'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know—and Estyn reflects this—that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4?
Kirsty Williams AM: No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't think it's—. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking—either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there.
Kirsty Williams AM: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication—students being asked to do things over and over—then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac— where they can, that is—by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because—. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school—whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college—a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is, 'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices.
Lynne Neagle AM: Siân, on this.
Sian Gwenllian AM: The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions—robust and clear evidence—is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence.
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, you don't want to—
Suzy Davies AM: By all means you ask the others I had.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively.
Kirsty Williams AM: In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it: 'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.' So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for 'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver—ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac.
Suzy Davies AM: In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it?
Kirsty Williams AM: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. There is already—I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England.
Lynne Neagle AM: What's a MOOC? [Laughter.]
Kirsty Williams AM: So, it is an online—a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it?
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Just one final question from me. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, given that Welsh Ministers are independent of the qualification system, I would want to be careful about what I said, because it is for the WJEC and Qualifications Wales to regulate this. But, clearly, we would want to reflect on making sure that students have an opportunity, and a fair opportunity. Andrew, I don't know if you've got any observations that you'd like to make.
Andrew Clark: No, not really. I think it's an individual case, this one—
Lynne Neagle AM: But it could apply to lots of young people, couldn't it? I mean, that's the point here. I know it's a constituent's case and I don't normally raise those in the Chair, but I think, given what we've learned about variability, it is a valid issue for young people in Wales, really.
Andrew Clark: Yes, whether it's particularly related to the Welsh baccalaureate, though, I'm not so certain. And I think that would be a better question to ask the WJEC, perhaps, and Qualifications Wales, because it's a deliberate act that that activity is at arm's length from Welsh Ministers.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Any other questions from Members? No. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for attending? We've had a very useful discussion this morning, which will inform our report on this. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, but thank you again for your attendance.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Llywydd to the First Minister on the role of the Assembly in the process of legislating for Brexit. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning with additional information following the meeting on 8 November. Are Members happy to note those?
Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make a comment on the first of those letters, the one from the Llywydd? I recommend to Assembly Members that they read that again if they can, because, actually, it's an important issue that is easily lost in the other things that we talk about with Brexit, and that is the role of this Assembly in scrutinising secondary legislation falling out of Brexit.
Hefin David AM: Can I ask a question? Was that a reflection of all the Chairs?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. It came to the panel of Chairs—
Hefin David AM: And it was obviously unanimous—
Lynne Neagle AM: —and we agreed that we wanted that letter sent.
Hefin David AM: Okay.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay.
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Industrial Designer: programme yeah .
Project Manager: Ah , okay I see .
User Interface: yeah the programme button . So this bl this button will be used both for the favourites and for programming {vocalsound} your uh the um the type of television you wanna use . So um the plastic is the white area of this {disfmarker} of the model here , and the red area is like a rubber covering .
Project Manager: It's pretty cool .
User Interface: So you can see that when it lays like this or like this {disfmarker} and the buttons are all gonna be rubber , so it's pretty hard to actually damage it um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is that {disfmarker} could that be easy to {disfmarker} for the scroll wheel to be rotated if it lands on it ?
User Interface: Yeah that might be a possible a mi uh possible problem , but if you drop it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Not helping {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: yeah {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Oh well I guess it depends on the stiffness a little of it .
User Interface: Yeah and it depends on if it's sliding , but I think it's pretty ergonomic . You can feel it .
Project Manager: Mm . Feels good .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I take it that this is gonna be slightly lighter in the final design as well .
User Interface: Yeah of course . Well this is clay {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah it's kinda cool . You have to reach a little bit don't you .
User Interface: Yeah the the power button is a bit of a reach , but I think we might scale down the final model a bit .
Project Manager: Ah yeah that wouldn't make sense .
User Interface: {vocalsound} These {disfmarker} this is a bit larger than it would be , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's cool . I'm impressed .
Industrial Designer: Don't have no one to handle that .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And hold it so {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: wh what's the marketing perspective ?
Marketing: oh that's {disfmarker} oh I like it . I mean you guys gave me more than I was asking for , so I'm happy because we've got some really marketable features in this . Yeah I think it's good . Good good good job .
User Interface: Mm Pedro can demonstrate the the paging ability .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So you ha you have like the the base station with um the little button for the where's my remote .
User Interface: Beep beep beep .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh pla
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The locator function .
Marketing: I'm ha
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: It's great . That's great . It's a great feature .
User Interface: Um beep beep beep {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm it's impressing .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Wicked isn't it ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So let me get it ,
User Interface: so {vocalsound}
Project Manager: if I press this button {disfmarker}
User Interface: beep beep beep {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I see . That's pretty cool . Hang on . {vocalsound}
User Interface: beep beep beep {vocalsound} be shut up . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So you can take this ho take this home with you tonight and you can push that and he'll be across town {disfmarker}
User Interface: Beep beep beep {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I plan to do that as well .
User Interface: okay . Um no no no tha that's alri
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So the the two blue {disfmarker} are are those for the the it to charge off of {disfmarker} in ?
User Interface: Exactly that's exactly what those are for .
Project Manager: Ah okay okay .
User Interface: And um there's one other feature that we were debating , but we decided to go against it , is um {disfmarker} you could
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: beep beep beep {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: we were thinking that it might be interesting to have a trigger button here because you have this finger {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah {vocalsound} it's the right shape isn't it ?
User Interface: it it's it kinda feels like there should be something there , but we couldn't figure out what button is important enough to put there . And we we don't wanna accidentally be hitting the power button like that so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But maybe if you had a trigger plus the scroll then that would get past the the problem of it landing and scrolling ,
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: 'cause then it would need to be hit on both sides {gap} .
User Interface: Right . So maybe in a final design phase we might tweak that a little bit ,
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh , I can see that .
Project Manager: But it's definitely got options for like different types of models and things as well based on that , hasn't it ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yep I like . Good job .
Project Manager: So is that the the final colour scheme as well or ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} No no .
User Interface: Oh no this is {vocalsound} just what we had to work with at the time .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: So we'll leave the colour scheme up to the marketing people .
Project Manager: The {disfmarker} hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Careful .
Project Manager: It came off . The scroll wheels , {gap} a problem with them not being sort of {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't think the user interface guy wants to touch it anymore .
Marketing: Well I mean of course , I mean {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: My my s my suggestion is we're gonna go go to the silvers and blacks like most of the televisions .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: You know some blend of silvers and blacks .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Beep beep beep . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay enough of that .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well i it's cool guys . 'Kay so are we done with the this presentation ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Ja .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now now .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So you're not gonna find my uh my folder up there I gotta do mine up at the board .
Project Manager: Have you ? Okay .
Marketing: Yeah yeah . So {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Can I not get your get at stuff from your shared folder now ?
Marketing: No it's not in there because I had the computer problem and I I I cou I couldn't create it .
Project Manager: Oh I see I see .
Marketing: I couldn't create it in the PowerPoint ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and I think I've got this really strange cable . So what I had , basically going from the PowerPoint format , is that uh yeah yeah I like this a lot . Is this one of the tests is to see how we can adapt to s changing situations in the in the meeting room ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So what we had is we had the method . That's not how you spell method , is it ?
User Interface: No way .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No A_ {vocalsound} . {gap} . {vocalsound} So this doesn't go so fast this way . And when I speak about method I speak about the marketing of the product huh . And uh to me with this product we got uh {disfmarker} we got {vocalsound} basically three things to market . We've got the features , we have the uh characteristics , and we have the {vocalsound} I I don't know what we would call the other part {disfmarker} what we call you know the the {vocalsound} the corp corporate {disfmarker} Help me . The the corporation stands behind the product , okay . So the features I think {vocalsound} we got the scroll , we've got the uh the locator , we've got the durability , we've got the dependability ,
Industrial Designer: It fell off .
Marketing: we've got you know the features that make this a unique product . Um
User Interface: Beep beep beep .
Marketing: {vocalsound} the characteristics I talk about , we have reliability , we have comfort , we have ergonomics , we have environmentally s sensitive . Uh and the corporation , we're talking about {disfmarker} we're we're a new we're a new company . We're wanting to make a name for ourself . We're wanting you to uh find our product so we're gonna give you a good product at a fair price . One thing I would want to to see is uh is can we can we get a lifetime uh guarantee on this product , a normal use guarantee , which means that this product , for the for the life of of {disfmarker} the life use , if it should have a technical problem , that we could re replace it at no cost ? That was something I would be interested in . Um so {vocalsound} yeah without uh going into great details , we have a we have a product , it has the features and the characteristics , and the background , I believe , to make it marketable I believe at a cost of of of thirty thirty five to to fifty Euros . We're gonna be competitive , and we're gonna we're gonna have a market niche . Um w
Project Manager: Do you {disfmarker} would you a argue that that we're better going for the higher cost than bringing it down into twenty f five as we probably could , but lowering our profit margins ?
Marketing: That that would be uh that would be I think a decision best made by corporate um I I m for my evaluation , based on what our competition is , I th I think that that we can go after this and and and go after more of the uh exclusivity sense than the mass market sense .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm 'kay .
Marketing: But I'm sh I'm sure open to to market this in either direction . But you guys came up with a great product , and at that cost I think it uh {disfmarker} there's nobody else that's putting this this combination of of ingredients together . The only limitations I see to this is that we're focused on television only . Uh that's the only that's the only drawback I see to this . But with all of these other features I think people c {vocalsound} one thing I'm I'm hoping for is people are not gonna even notice . There's gonna be somebody going home and say oh sh this thing doesn't work for my D_V_D_ and my {disfmarker} but I like these other things , so they keep it , they don't take it back .
Project Manager: And we're actually quite open to be able to expand the product for a later version with those features quite simply anyway , aren't we ? Th there's no fundamentally different technology to do that .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well one of one of the thoughts that I had is can can this unit be be produced in a way that makes it upgradable ?
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: You know uh like like a um a sim card in a in a um in a telephone . You know is there a card in th can we make a card and so after {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: W we need we need we need s some more buttons if it would to work on some other stuff , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm , but you follow what I'm s I'm s
Industrial Designer: We we w yeah we could get another version of it that actually works . But uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah 'cause if if we can make this unit upgradable then we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah but then we talk about changing the warranty concept and everything , but that's that was just an idea I had . Uh to me the only additions {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , the plus there's the the risk of making it unusable as well , or making it less {disfmarker} b because at the moment it's actually very straightforward to look at all the buttons , you know what they do , it's very simple , and it just works .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm there's a risk of that .
Marketing: Yep . But anyway that's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay so we can talk about finance now . So I have a little spreadsheet for us where {disfmarker} I I was wondering , you {disfmarker} when you talked about the fifteen point eight Euros , I was wondering how you came up with that figure ?
User Interface: Well , that was just just our technical team added up the um production costs of the individual units .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay so I have bit of a spreadsheet here for this . {vocalsound} Now
User Interface: Oh .
Industrial Designer: Very co very colf colourful .
Project Manager: I've made a f few assumptions here in that I'm assuming that our power adaptor we can make for a cost of four Euros ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh-huh .
Project Manager: equivalent to solar cells , which I think is probably fair considering that we have in-house manufacturing of power adaptors already .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} and I'm assuming that the locator beacon , the you know the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: beep beep beep .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Can be made for {disfmarker} it sounded different that time {disfmarker} uh can be made for a similar price to uh an L_C_ display ,
User Interface: Oh , sorry . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: uh an uh {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh do you think that's fair coming from a {disfmarker} m the manufacturing ?
User Interface: Yeah um I do think we that we we {vocalsound} uh don't need the events chip on print , we only need the uh the regular chip on print ,
Project Manager: {gap} . Okay .
User Interface: so there may have been a m miscalculation in there .
Project Manager: Yep . Okay . So we're down to sixteen point four , yeah .
User Interface: And we and we have a single-curved uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is that a single-curved rather than a double-curved ?
User Interface: Uh I think that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We're not entirely sure what single-curve versus double-cur
Marketing: {vocalsound} We've got a we've got a curve and a droop . I don't know whether that {vocalsound} .
User Interface: It's single-curved ,
Project Manager: You think ? Okay
User Interface: yeah .
Project Manager: I'm {gap} convinced . But we save one Euro that way , yeah ? So we come {disfmarker} bring it down to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Fifteen point four .
User Interface: See it's a little bit more than f single-curved . So yeah it's fifteen point eight , that's where we came up with it {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well hang on .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do don't speak so {disfmarker} it's in here , in that {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: w do we have any {disfmarker} we have special form don't we ?
User Interface: Yeah we do .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So that's {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Ah . What do you know {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: But the the the {disfmarker} we haven't talked about any special colour though uh I don't th
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh it's {vocalsound} a that's not very special , it's pretty {disfmarker}
Project Manager: if we're going for greys and silvers then I don't think we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} O okay so we're {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} If th {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Push-button , scroll wheel , we're {disfmarker} basically we have uh th
Industrial Designer: We don't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: is this intended to be a button as well or just a scroll ?
User Interface: That's a scroll .
Industrial Designer: It's a scroll .
Project Manager: Just a scroll ? It's not one of the scrolls where , for example , with this one you could push it down to be a button ?
User Interface: Uh no we just use it as a scroll .
Marketing: Ooh .
Project Manager: Okay then we have fifteen point eight Euros .
User Interface: It was a pretty accurate estimate I would say .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It wasn't bad .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: We're wicked . Awesome .
Project Manager: Okay so we're on to the {disfmarker}
User Interface: S 's kind of s frighteningly accurate {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: We're on to the pat-on-the-back part of the presentation , where we have a look at the criterias th that Paul {vocalsound} the criterion criteria that Paul has has given us {vocalsound} , and we can use that to tell {disfmarker} How's it going ? {vocalsound} Anyone got any thoughts ?
User Interface: What ?
Project Manager: How how have we done today ?
User Interface: I think we did pretty well .
Project Manager: I think we did pretty well too .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: That looks pretty spectacular .
Marketing: No , I think we come up with a with a attractive marketable um product and and concept .
Project Manager: Any other chang uh thoughts ? Okay so th th what about um room for creativity ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Is it the {gap} .
Industrial Designer: That was mm-hmm {disfmarker}
User Interface: Sh I think there was plenty of room .
Project Manager: I {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think we we ended up being quite creative there .
User Interface: We got a couple innovative i
Marketing: Yeah
User Interface: Couple innovative ideas .
Marketing: well we we we kinda broke {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we kinda at least adjusted every every criteria they gave us
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: because we d we still have the the teletext capability in this thing right ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: No .
Marketing: we raised the price of it , we've added two t new technology to it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So you know you know if this thing flies then we've we've adjusted or broken every every idea they gave us .
Project Manager: Not every idea necessarily ,
Industrial Designer: Basically .
Project Manager: it's still a remote control {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah yeah .
Project Manager: Uh no yeah but {disfmarker} we did we did break with the specs a little bit I guess ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but the uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: But I like {disfmarker} I mean when I say we have we had {disfmarker} I believe we have room for creativity 'cause w this is {disfmarker} we did it .
Project Manager: 'Kay leadership , what do we report back to the bosses ? No th th I think they were r reasonably flexible with us over the whole changing the specs thing .
User Interface: Yep .
Industrial Designer: It was more of a teamwork thing then really leadership based project was
Project Manager: I agree .
Industrial Designer: Teamwork .
Marketing: Cohesive yeah .
Project Manager: Synergy .
User Interface: {vocalsound} There was a lot of synergy .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yes synergistic yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Teamwork , yeah he is uh .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: What did we think of the meeting room , I guess is an important thing here . Mm .
User Interface: These cables suck {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Yeah , this falls off
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: and uh the white board worked really well without any pro
User Interface: Yep .
Industrial Designer: And that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: D you must have very long shirts . That's way far down lapel mic .
Project Manager: Mm-mm , lapel . Wha okay , oh , alright {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Lapel lapel lapel {vocalsound} .
User Interface: Lapel .
Industrial Designer: That's almost a crotch {vocalsound} mi cr {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's it's down , it's quite close .
Marketing: {vocalsound} You know you know what they're gonna have on the recording in there from that microphone is your lunch digesting you know th {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Keep it , keep it calm . {vocalsound} Oh dear {vocalsound} . No more pizza for me {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh dear oh dear {vocalsound} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So yeah the the pen came in alright and it's a little uncomfortable to use but I guess it works .
Industrial Designer: 'Cause this is {disfmarker} you were using it o upside down . Still that {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's our boss {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Nah , I'm I'm not convinced of that at all .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I've been wor I've been wondering about that all day , but see these look like they're {disfmarker} that looks the oth that looks like it would be that way around ,
Industrial Designer: Use them like that .
User Interface: Pedro's right .
Project Manager: but it feels more comfortable , wh what you call upside-down .
User Interface: Pedro's right .
Project Manager: I don't care . Uh okay so that data might be slightly invalid . What new ideas have we found ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh wel
Marketing: New ideas f uh for the product or for the the the the environment or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well let's do both then .
Marketing: what are we ta
Project Manager: Uh for the product ?
User Interface: Well we had the favourites list , and the scroll bar , and we have the cradle , and the r uh remote call feature .
Marketing: Oh .
Project Manager: Yeah we came up with quite a bit .
Industrial Designer: Bunch of new ideas .
Project Manager: And for the meeting room , Has anyone got any more {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah comfortable headsets would be nice .
Project Manager: Yeah less sore on the ears .
Marketing: Well I I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: clearly remote control microphones would be the would be a nice solution to all these cables , but I'm sure that there's there's some justification for these things that I don't know about . And of course I did not have so much fun with my computer this afternoon .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's not been uh it's not been cooperating so well , but {vocalsound} I don't think that's the that's avoidable .
Industrial Designer: Coulda been worse .
Project Manager: Okay {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} Are the costs within the budget ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm n {vocalsound} no .
Project Manager: Nope .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Oh hang on it really {disfmarker} that's something we {disfmarker} that the costs were under twelve fifty Euros . No requirements are changed . We're still under twenty Euros to build , so we're good .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And the costs within the budget ? Not the original budget , but they are now . Is the project evaluated ? Mm I think so yeah , then celebration as it says .
Industrial Designer: Hooray .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Free coke provided at the cafeteria .
Project Manager: Oh I don't know how that got there .
User Interface: All right .
Project Manager: Uh anyway .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Who wrote that one ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Thanks guys .
Marketing: So we need to close this meeting ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: yeah bravo . Congratulations .
User Interface: Good job guys .
Industrial Designer: Cool .
Marketing: S I've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on so let's close this and come back and {disfmarker} 'kay .
Project Manager: Yeah , I've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on too . Oh .
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Project Manager: Okay , all set ? Welcome to the conceptual design meeting .
User Interface: Uh , okay .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: The agenda . The opening . I'll again be the secretary and make minutes , take minutes , uh and it will be three presentations , just like the last meeting . So um , {vocalsound} who wants to start off ? Technical uh designer again ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Again .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: Uh , yeah . Uh , before we begin it , I want to say I've I've put the minutes of the uh second meeting in the shared folder , but they're still not uh quite okay . It uh it uh still some technical difficulties so the the first part of the minutes are very hard to read , because there are two documents that uh were layered over each other .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: But uh , from now on I won't use my pen anymore , so will be p just {vocalsound} ordinary keyboard .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh , may be better , yeah .
Marketing: Keyboard work . Yeah .
Project Manager: I think it {gap} will will be more uh easy for you to read the minutes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Alright .
Industrial Designer: Okay , when we talk about uh components design , um it's really about the material and the {disfmarker} and uh uh really the stuff we build uh the remote controls of . Um , a remote control consist of uh components and the components of a remote control consist of uh properties and material . We have to choose th uh these uh wisely and it could affect uh uh a kind of grow of {disfmarker} in uh in buying uh the remote controls . Um , the components of a remote control are of course uh the case . Uh the properties of the case , um it has to be solid uh in hard material like uh hard plastic uh with soft rubber for uh falling and and uh uh {disfmarker} yeah , it feels uh good in your hand .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm the buttons has to be uh solid too , and the material is soft rubber . Uh I've got a uh email from the possibilities of Real Reaction . Um uh they're telling me that um when we build uh a remote control of um of plastic or rubber , the uh buttons have to be uh rubber too . Mm {disfmarker} It's okay . Yeah . I when we use a rubbled {disfmarker} a doubled curved case , we must use a rubber push-buttons to {disfmarker} uh the the rubber double-curved case is a is a t uh three-dimensional uh curve in the in the design , which is uh necessary when we want to be trendy . Uh {disfmarker} Um
User Interface: Oh .
Industrial Designer: the energy source , uh I've got a lot of possibilities for that too . Um , uh the basic battery , which I thi prefer because of its uh its non uh non-depending of of of uh um {disfmarker} Uh here you have to have a hand uh {disfmarker} yeah , kinetic uh energy . Also in uh this one , like in the watches , but a remote control can lie on a table for a day , and then you push uh a button and {disfmarker} so you don't have to uh walk with it all the all the time . Mm , solar cells are also uh a bit weird for uh remote controls .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um uh also the case material , uh I think that plastic is the is the best with rubber , because uh wood or titanium would also be a bit weird .
User Interface: Oh titanium is probably trendy , I think . {gap} .
Marketing: That's true , I guess . Yeah .
User Interface: Well , maybe a little bit expensive .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I don't know .
Industrial Designer: Uh , they don't tell anything about the cost of uh titanium .
Marketing: Huh .
Industrial Designer: Um the chip {disfmarker} uh the chip set uh and the board is uh all off the shelf . Also , the speaker in the remote control , when we want to retrieve it . Um , the base station is also off the shelf , all the materials and the components are uh just available in uh in our uh factory . Mm , I've told about uh the three first points . Mm , the simple electronical chip uh is is available uh with the LED transmitter uh transmitter . Uh , it's all uh off the shelf and even the speaker and the wireless retriever are all uh available in our company . Um , another possibility . I uh yeah , I looked up on was uh the L_C_D_ displays . Could be uh something special to our uh remote control , and it's possible , but it only cost a bit more , but maybe it can be uh within the limits of twenty five Euros .
Project Manager: Twelve and a half . Actually {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ah yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , production cost .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I th I got an email with uh some examples and it {disfmarker} these were were the most trendiest one .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You see uh a covers , which can be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What are those , t tooth uh brushes , or so
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um , I don't know . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But it's actually kind of uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: well , it resembles the design I had in mind for this proj
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: You know the the cartoonish {vocalsound} Alessi kind of design .
Marketing: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Yes , maybe we can uh bri uh bring a couple of uh couple of types of uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And we can we can steal their ideas .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: maybe a kind of uh whole uh um a whole set of uh different uh remote controls .
Project Manager: Huh .
Industrial Designer: Maybe we can bring a whole line uh with uh with a {gap} huge variety of uh
Project Manager: Well , it's a possibility , too .
Industrial Designer: uh house uh stuff .
User Interface: Different colours also .
Industrial Designer: Like uh {vocalsound} maybe radios and uh television also uh in this in this {disfmarker} in the same style , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh-uh .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , that'll be for the future , I guess .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Next time we're here . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes , because we have to uh {disfmarker} we have to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we have to bring the logo and all the stuff uh back into it .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh , okay .
Marketing: Yeah . Definitely .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Thank you . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Alright .
User Interface: {gap} uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . That's okay .
User Interface: Ah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well , I shall go to the next slide . Um
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: um , I still don't have any information about user requirements .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I was thinking about just uh the basic functions and I got uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh , we decided upon that in the last meeting . Didn't we ?
User Interface: Yeah , but but then wh I don't know when there are new user requirements .
Project Manager: Oh , okay . Well , tha I didn't receive any new requirements or somethi
User Interface: I ha I ha I have the I have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just {disfmarker}
User Interface: nothing .
Project Manager: no , but we decided to use only b basic functions only .
User Interface: Well , I have here a couple of basic functions I could think of .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: I dunno if they're {disfmarker} maybe a little bit more , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well we {disfmarker} maybe we can think of that later . W just {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: these are the ones you already summed up in the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , I I uh {vocalsound} well , I pointed them out here , just to make it a little bit easier .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Um Another function uh is {disfmarker} of course we already discuss it on the side . Um , I don't know what costs of it . Uh , I've no idea about it . Uh , I was also looking for what you said , for {disfmarker} I got an email uh uh about uh L_C_D_ in in in front of the remote control . I don't know if that's a good idea , or maybe it's a little bit too much for twelve and a half . Production .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: If we got already uh something like a base .
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh .
Project Manager: That might get redundant also maybe . I don't know what kind of information it would {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , I don't know . I d I uh ju I was just thinking about it . Then I got a pop-ups to go to the meeting . But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah , it's okay .
Industrial Designer: Maybe we can bring t uh uh teletext to the t {vocalsound} to the remote control . {vocalsound}
User Interface: The remote control .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Then you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} a little uh too {disfmarker} {vocalsound} A little bit {disfmarker}
Marketing: and then you've got a flag s {vocalsound} Very big R_C_ . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} That's not {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It was not a good idea .
User Interface: A little bit too big , I think . Exactly .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Um , yeah . Well , the functions are are not more to discuss , I think .
Project Manager: No . No .
User Interface: It's it's just the base things we already discussed that the {disfmarker} no V_C_R_ or that kind of {disfmarker}
Marketing: No .
User Interface: uh , so that's very easy . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But you do mention the next and previous uh button .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Well , that's next channel . I mean {gap} next channel .
Marketing: Next channel , previous channel .
Project Manager: Oh , okay , o okay okay .
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} oh , I I got an email with {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with an uh a remote control with a base .
Project Manager: Huh .
User Interface: So , it's uh just an idea . And I um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh thinked of the button sizes and I'm not sure uh if they have to be big or uh just small {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But you're the expert . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think it depends on the function .
User Interface: Well , I'm not a e I'm the expert for user-friendly , but not for trendiness .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Maybe it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well , if you save uh {disfmarker} Perhaps uh s tiny buttons aren't user-friendly , then we wouldn't im implement that of course .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: okay , that's your point . Um , yeah . Yeah , okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , I've nothing to {vocalsound} s
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , w when we only use basic functions , we have the possibility to make the buttons larger .
Marketing: Oh , that's right .
User Interface: Uh , with a little bit larger , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: I thought so , but maybe with the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well , I think we already agreed upon the fact that the the the skip buttons and the cha and the volume buttons , th th those two have {disfmarker} yeah , they have to be large .
User Interface: Yeah , that groups .
Project Manager: Uh , I mean th th the the two two basic buttons , you know , the {disfmarker} to skip channels and to uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Large ? Yeah .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker} yeah , I don't know why , but I think that is {disfmarker} that's t trendy too ,
User Interface: Most {disfmarker} the most used uh buttons .
Marketing: Those are probably the the th
Project Manager: because that's the mo it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} you know , it's uh acc acc um accentu uh , how do you say it ? It puts an extra accent on the the on the simplicity of our remotes to j to make these two most basic functions extra big , like t
Marketing: Yes .
User Interface: True . Yeah .
Marketing: Those are probably the b four most most used buttons on the th in the remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah . And you want to acc accentuate that , you know .
Industrial Designer: You did the research .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's from your research . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sorry ? Yeah , sure . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay . Uh , that was all y
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: uh personal preference I didn't have .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: I didn't had any time left .
Project Manager: No uh , that's coo it's cool .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You don't care . No , {vocalsound} sorry . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh . Go away .
User Interface: It's there .
Marketing: Come on .
User Interface: Yeah , click on it .
Marketing: {gap} .
User Interface: Couple time .
Marketing: Oh , great . Well , I've done some research again about trends on the internet . Um I've done some investigation , and uh well I uh got some information from fashion watchers from Paris and uh Milan . {vocalsound} Some uh some findings {disfmarker} the most important thing is fancy look and feel of the remote control . Uh , well , we were going to imply that , so that's nice . The second important thing is uh innovative technology in the R_C_ . Uh , our market really likes really likes that . And uh the third point there in this uh order if {disfmarker} of importance , the third point , is a high ease of use . And uh , well , for the idea , I've put some trends uh for the market of elderly people .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Dark colours , simple recognisable shapes . So we probably won't do that .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: The younger market likes uh {disfmarker} Well , {gap} the {gap} themes of of this year are uh surprisingly fruits and vegetables and spongy material .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I found this image , which is uh {disfmarker} Well , it symbolises the idea of fruits and vegetables . I don't see the spongy part in it . But with a little bit of fancy {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well maybe c {vocalsound} then we have to do something with Sponge Bob then . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Exactly . I got some ideas {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh well , yeah , pictures isn't really good word , but um
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: some symbols of fruits or vegetables maybe . Uh , catchy colours .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Fruit is uh yellow , green , red , whatever .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So , remote controls in in catchy colours .
Project Manager: It doesn't stroke with the with the dark colours .
Marketing: Uh , no , we don't want dark colours .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Not the dark colours ? Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} No , I just put them there to uh , yeah , uh for general idea .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: And uh , the docking st
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: uh I think the spongy material is is very irritating for the uh remote control itself . But to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} To implement some spongy thing , maybe we can do it in the in the docking station . At the bottom of the docking station or whatever . And uh , we could bring one line with a dark colour uh to um uh p uh yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: uh uh v how do you say ?
Project Manager: For diversity or something . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , also a bit for elderly people who are a little bit crazy and want {vocalsound} maybe want a little younger design but still the dark colour .
User Interface: Well , how uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean it it it reaches a different market uh , but it it it doesn't cost really much effort to b to uh bring uh like a black R_C_ on the market or whatever . Yes .
User Interface: But how do we use uh fruits and vegetables in Christ's {vocalsound} sake with {vocalsound} remote control ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No , but I I I think that uh our design already resembles so a piece of fruit .
Marketing: Yeah , there's there's always a
User Interface: Uh , make it a banana ?
Project Manager: It's like a pear or something .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well there there's always empty space of course on a remote control . I mean I think this part of the R_C_ uh well {vocalsound} the upper the upper part or whatever is uh is not not used with buttons , I guess .
Project Manager: No , I don't think you have to do it like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So you you can put some fruity things {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but it that doesn't have to remind you , you know , like explicitly of s our f of a of a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like the the the the round curves .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No , of course not .
Project Manager: And so y I I think this {disfmarker} y it already sem resembles uh something like a pear to me or something .
Marketing: Especially i
User Interface: Yeah , but th {vocalsound} yeah , but that {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , yeah . Yeah , exactly .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , but that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: If we make it little bit greenish .
Project Manager: You do get the idea , eh ? The fruity kind of round {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah uh uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Marketing: A {vocalsound} and we could use {vocalsound} one of these for the uh w what is it ?
Project Manager: Yeah , uh {disfmarker} yeah , I don't know .
Industrial Designer: Grapes .
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh , this is a b yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Isn't {disfmarker} Wha whatever .
User Interface: But d don't we need a creative artist or something like that to m make it to feel like a a a a vegetable or fruit ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah . Of course we have uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , sure .
Project Manager: we have a very big uh the s
Marketing: Yeah . Well , w we can uh {disfmarker} w we can we can produce multiple uh multiple things .
Industrial Designer: For a big team of artists . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Of d design team , yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: This is then the uh pear . I don't know the English word , so forget it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's pear , I guess .
Marketing: {vocalsound} And um , maybe , yeah , a b a banana is uh is n {vocalsound} not easy for a remote control , but m yeah .
Industrial Designer: But uh but I think we don't have to make
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No .
Industrial Designer: we can't make all uh ten designs . We have to make one design I th I I think .
Project Manager: No , but I think it's it's already what we were were up to .
Marketing: Mayb maybe two or three .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh , it's {disfmarker} it doesn't have to resemble uh what I already said , a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like a fruity thing going on .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah . No sure , but but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And it's {disfmarker} it looks fruity to me .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: B but that's great , and and and what I was {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And uh , but I do like the {disfmarker}
Marketing: what what I was saying , the catchy colours {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah , I do like uh the f uh to {disfmarker} the idea of making a a y uh , a catchy colour design and a d because I do {disfmarker} I think a dark colour would be nice too .
Industrial Designer: But pictures of fruit , vegetables vegetables {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Maybe it's too much , you know .
User Interface: But , we we have to um {disfmarker} There have to be the the the the firm colours , our own uh colours has to be in it .
Marketing: Yeah , uh not really . Pictures was a was a bad word , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , but what are the {disfmarker} This is yellow .
Marketing: Well we c yeah .
User Interface: Yellow , a Real Reaction .
Industrial Designer: Yes , you can put a logo on top of it .
Project Manager: But I don't think our our company colours are this fashionable .
Marketing: Yeah , sure .
User Interface: Uh , yeah .
Marketing: Maybe we can if if we got our docking station over here .
User Interface: {vocalsound} We uh f
Industrial Designer: Yes , it's really fruity . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I can't draw with this thing , but I'll try .
User Interface: A yellow do
Marketing: If this is our docking station , we can make our logo over here .
User Interface: Uh , yeah .
Marketing: It doesn't work . And then {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , and the button then .
Industrial Designer: With a strawberry on top .
Project Manager: Yeah , on uh n uh on the bottom of the remote you can do {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well , the button button over here or whatever ,
User Interface: Okay , yeah .
Marketing: I don't know . On the front , of course , because else you can't find it .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Well , that were my ideas a little bit .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: I'll close 'em down . Um , go away .
Project Manager: Okay , you {disfmarker} can you open the conceptual design presentation ?
Marketing: Conceptual design , yes .
Project Manager: See what was on the agenda .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Lazy . {vocalsound}
Marketing: The agenda .
Project Manager: This is his own remote . Because um , maybe we can start with the technical uh functions ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: but I don't think it's there {disfmarker} uh , yeah um , do we want to um use an L_C_D_ display , for example ?
Marketing: Well , it's nice , of course . But I don't I don't know what to display on it .
Industrial Designer: Only if we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Me neither .
Industrial Designer: Maybe maybe we can make a T_V_ guide on it , for the channel you're on .
Marketing: I mean {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but it's so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , but it should be li like this big , and I don't think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No , no , only the T_V_ channel with the {disfmarker} with uh with {vocalsound} uh four programmes .
Project Manager: I don't think we should do it .
Industrial Designer: You can uh zap through them with the page up page down button .
Marketing: Yes sure , but it it has to to show an entire title of a programme or at least a q a quite quite large part of it and then you get a very large L_C_D_ screen , because {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes , it can {disfmarker} On your {disfmarker} No , on your mobile phone you can y you can read text also . So why not on your remote ?
Project Manager: Yeah , but {disfmarker} no . I do I think it's a bit redundant , actually .
Marketing: Yeah , I don't know .
Project Manager: And it's also not {disfmarker} I don't th even think it it looks s like sexy or something ,
User Interface: Well well what would you display on it then ?
Project Manager: it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh , programme uh information or or or or g or a guide
Marketing: Programme information .
User Interface: But is it {disfmarker} isn't that a already on T_V_ , a lot of new T_V_s ?
Marketing: But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: on t on teletext , yes . Also on the internet .
Marketing: Well a lot a lot of T_V_s indeed show uh when you uh zap to a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But you're already watching the T_V_ , you're not gonna watch your remote control .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes , but you also want to know what's next .
Marketing: But then we also uh w need to bring out a line of T_V_s which we were planning to ,
User Interface: Yeah ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and we also have to {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: but whatever . Because the T_V_ has to send information back to the R_C_ , and I don't know if that's possible .
Industrial Designer: Yes , that's uh really possible . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yes , yes , o of course it's possible ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but you gotta uh implement it in the T_V_s , and I don't think everyone's gonna buy a Real Reaction T_V_ within a month after the release of our uh remote control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I really understand you want to make your job more exciting {vocalsound} by putting an L_C_D_ in it ,
User Interface: And I also {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but I I really don't think it's a good n goo because it also doesn't stroke with {disfmarker} we wanted uh c When we talk about the materials , uh it's a good idea to use these plastic materials with soft rubber stuff on it . It was our idea , you know , to give it a more sturdy look and that you ca like you can throw with it .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: But I don't think a L_C_D_ display fits in that image . You know , it's like more vulnerable , and it adds nothing really , you know .
Marketing: That's true , that's true , it breaks f yeah , it it it's not very solid , it's uh frag fragile .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah . You could make it , but it's just {disfmarker} it it doesn't {disfmarker} I don't think it {disfmarker} it's coherent with the design we're after .
Marketing: No . No . I don't think so ei either .
Project Manager: But that's my opinion . Well , you you y Okay , we can vote for it . You want the L_C_D_ display . I don't want to and {vocalsound} he doesn't , so it's up to him .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} If we wanna {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , I dunno .
Marketing: {vocalsound} . Ah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And I've read somewhere that I've got some kind of veto veto uh rights .
User Interface: {vocalsound} . Oh , okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Bastard . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So I can also say {disfmarker}
User Interface: We can {gap} you away .
Project Manager: But did we skip the {disfmarker} Yeah , you could do {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: m but what what i so what i but do you think we should {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , I don't know . Uh , uh I {disfmarker} i if it's it's a simple p
Project Manager: We're not even sure what what information we want to display on it . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: No , that that's right ,
Industrial Designer: No uh um {disfmarker}
User Interface: and uh I also have to think about new functions , maybe buttons or something like that to control it . Kind of L_C_D_ or something or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Y yes , you can use uh buttons uh uh w that are already uh on the remote control for double functions .
Marketing: Yeah , I guess .
User Interface: But how does it display then ? W when I go to the second channel , what what does it show me ?
Industrial Designer: Uh , then you push a button . The title and the information about the programme .
User Interface: About that programme ?
Industrial Designer: But but uh {disfmarker} yeah , what he said was right , about the televisions , they have to be uh customised to the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Nah , that's not gonna work .
Industrial Designer: But maybe in future it will be a giant hit , and when you are the first
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Yeah . Oh , well uh I've seen it done before .
Industrial Designer: you have the biggest uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you know th like the the bigger rem uh universal remotes , they have d L_C_D_ displays ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: but then it's very functional to indicate which {disfmarker} what uh uh device you are controlling . So it's {disfmarker} that that's what I've seen .
Industrial Designer: Yes , you can put uh a little L_C_D_ display on it with uh with lots of information .
Marketing: Yeah , that's true , if you uh {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: But it just {disfmarker} it j it doesn't doesn't match with the {gap} our whole basic concept .
Industrial Designer: But uh I haven't thought about it . But whe but when you put a a a transparent uh plastic uh uh screen on top of it , it i it isn't vulnerable .
Project Manager: Well yeah , yeah , okay . That's maybe not the most important ,
Industrial Designer: You can throw with it and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but it's just {disfmarker}
User Interface: Is it fashion ?
Project Manager: I don't think so .
Industrial Designer: When when you put uh maybe a colour L_C_D_ t uh screen on it , it's very special and very trendy to have uh a remote control from {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't know . That's not up to you . That's up to market if i if it's trendy .
Project Manager: Yeah , well do you ha do you have to {disfmarker} {gap} You haven't looked after the trendiness of L_C_D_ displays , have you ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Because our our motto is we put fashion {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well , I think it's uh I think it's pretty trendy , to be honest , uh but um I don't know if if if {disfmarker} well , I'm coming back to the costs again , but I think uh we gotta build a b pretty cheap design to to stay within our limits . And I think uh especially colour L_C_D_ , which is indeed pretty trendy . But I don't think {disfmarker} Uh , I think it will be too expensive .
Industrial Designer: But uh I've got a {disfmarker} the email with uh with the possibilities . {vocalsound} And L_C_D_ was a possibility for the remote control .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah yeah yeah .
Industrial Designer: So why don't we use it .
Project Manager: Yeah , but we're gonna {disfmarker} if it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh , did it say a price also uh for for uh monogramme uh L_C_D_ or uh coloured L_C_D_ ?
User Interface: Yeah , if you want to be trendy you have to be coloured . Coloured {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah really ,
User Interface: If you have black and white or something , or grey , that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: if y if you c i
Project Manager: Then uh then you better don't {disfmarker} yeah , d
Marketing: I in in two thousand and four you can't uh put something on the market which is a monogramme .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Really . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No , but it doesn't sa say anything about a colour or {disfmarker} But , mm , I alf I also got a possibility to put uh a scroll button on it . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh uh I really don't feel the whole idea of an L_C_D_ display .
Industrial Designer: I didn't think that {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: I'm sorry . It can't co you cannot convince me . I don't know how {disfmarker} well how to {disfmarker} with you guys , but {disfmarker} I don't really feel it . We already {disfmarker} we're uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's too much uh maybe uh with with the L_C_D_ and the docking station and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , we already have the the th th th base station gadgets ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: and want {disfmarker} and it {disfmarker} uh uh , do {disfmarker} it has to be a simple design , which sturdy , which soft {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes , but o on the {disfmarker}
Marketing: W we've we've gotta find a balance , of course .
User Interface: With one thing special .
Marketing: And I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: Not a whole package of specialty .
Project Manager: I don't think {disfmarker} I j uh , and really , I don't see how the the L_C_D_ display is gonna add anything , you know , on a design level . Uh , I think it's slicker to have no L_ CEDs .
Industrial Designer: No , when y
Project Manager: Y we want to {disfmarker} it's simplicity , w you have two big buttons and you can do whatever you want with these two buttons , so you don't need an L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: But it look {disfmarker} Yes , but that remote controls are already on the market . The simple {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It doesn't fit in our philosophy uh behind the whole remote .
Industrial Designer: Yes , but but when you want to have something special {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but we already have the docking station , which is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes , but you had a picture of it from another company .
User Interface: And uh the {disfmarker}
Marketing: We have a pear .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} It has to be developed ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but {disfmarker} no , but it {disfmarker} that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that's our that's our killer feature .
User Interface: It's just an it's just an idea .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's our {disfmarker} what makes it special .
User Interface: It's a it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes , it was already made . Tha the remote control on the docking station .
Project Manager: Yeah , we're gonna develop our own r n docking station .
User Interface: True .
Marketing: Is that so ? Was it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it wasn't just a prototype ?
User Interface: Well uh I uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes , he have a picture of it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , I dunno .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Exactly , I've never seen it in a store .
Project Manager: Uh , but re we really have to cut this off ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I re I know you {disfmarker} I I I I {vocalsound} I get the idea you really like it , you know , the the L_C_D_ thing , but I I think it's it's not a good idea , and we have already mentioned all the arguments . I don't {disfmarker} uh , do you guys agre How do you guys think ? I d
User Interface: No , it's too much .
Marketing: I think it's a little too much , yeah .
User Interface: It's overdone .
Project Manager: Okay , we s skip the {vocalsound} L_C_D_ display .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: I'm sorry , maybe you can do something if we are at your own place , or make it make it make it happen in your basement or something .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Democratically .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} No .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mayb {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I will rule the world with it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Probably so .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . But for the technical part . The m material , I think uh it was a good idea to use the plastic and uh the rubber . Uh
Industrial Designer: Yes , maybe a bit of a cushion is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah yeah yeah , p Exactly . This is what it w Yeah , but it it was already what we're uh we're after , you know , to give it uh , you know , the soft touch in your hands
Marketing: Yeah , for the spongy uh feel . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: With a spongy Bob feel .
Project Manager: and also to , know , like {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , that is y the b airbag kind of thing .
Industrial Designer: Like a b yes .
Project Manager: You can st throw it at your little brother's head .
User Interface: Yeah , you just can drop it . Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , airbag . If you drop it if you drop it the airbag comes out , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . No no no , not that comfy .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Maybe it {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but then we have to look that it uh w uh will not um be too childish to see .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah . Yeah . Okay , that's a that's a good point . And that's why I like the dark t col dark colour bit , you know , because it may be {disfmarker} the design uh , it's uh maybe it is a bit of the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: But not black I think .
Project Manager: it's a bit nineties maybe , what we're what we're up to rat fun to this point .
Marketing: No .
User Interface: Well if if it's fruit and vegetables , it have to be colourful .
Project Manager: Yeah , that's that's true , but but it has to be a little big solid .
Marketing: Yeah , b yeah , that's what w I I was pointing at .
User Interface: But can we ge uh uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It mustn't be too , n you know , th too overwhelming , then when you put it on your {gap} just {disfmarker}
User Interface: Can we combine it or something ? Uh with uh yellow and black ?
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah , maybe so .
User Interface: Make it a bee ? {vocalsound} A bee . {vocalsound}
Marketing: What ? Oh , a bee . Oh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No , uh I don't like the yellow and black combination {gap} . But it is our company colours . Apparently . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , {gap} it's our {disfmarker} yeah . We we have to use yellow .
Industrial Designer: Yes , real real good colours . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: I don't like yellow , and uh maybe {disfmarker} I don't know .
Marketing: Well , we can as as I
Industrial Designer: But that's not really fruity .
Marketing: draw really nicely over there . {vocalsound} We can put the logo on our uh on our base station . Uh , yeah . And maybe very very tiny on the remote control itself .
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
Marketing: But , i
Project Manager: Okay , but what {disfmarker} uh , what are other tef technical things we have to discuss ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh fronts of the {disfmarker} We can have uh different uh uh fronts of the
Project Manager: Should we do that ?
Industrial Designer: telephone .
Project Manager: I don't think you {disfmarker} we should do that . Maybe just bring it out in different colours ,
User Interface: Different fronts .
Project Manager: but not af that you can switch fronts afterwards , that's also too much .
Marketing: Yeah . I guess that's that's enough .
Project Manager: People don't wanna spend more money on their remote {vocalsound} control , I guess .
Marketing: That's way too Nokia .
User Interface: Yeah . Uh , you can you can l uh let choose the customer which colour he wants , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Are these designs ?
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , definitely . Just bring more designs on the market .
User Interface: Yeah , Three three or four uh four uh colours , or something like that .
Project Manager: But uh , without {disfmarker} gon uh
Marketing: Why not , yeah .
Project Manager: okay . So , are we through the technical part then ?
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Okay . So we uh agreed upon uh n uh well , not u unanimously or how you call it , but {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: Well , yeah ,
Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} this a real uh young young and dynamic uh uh styles .
User Interface: the {disfmarker} Three to one . {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The materials you uh mentioned in your your personal preferences were all {disfmarker} were quite okay .
Industrial Designer: {gap} Yes .
Project Manager: O o only only the last point your {disfmarker}
User Interface: And tita uh titanium , is {disfmarker} uh is is it a no ?
Industrial Designer: Yes , {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: no titanium's not not out of question , I guess .
User Interface: Is {disfmarker} It's just like that , th this titanium .
Industrial Designer: But also w Yes , b bu but when we use s soft
Project Manager: But is it possible to use both the the plastic and so uh soft things and t p titanium , as well ?
Industrial Designer: mm {disfmarker}
Marketing: Sure .
Project Manager: Makes it in a homogeneous uh design .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: No , not all , not all of them .
Industrial Designer: But it it {disfmarker} then it uh {disfmarker} you can't throw it it . It will uh make a huge noise or break other stuff
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} It will it will break other stuff w {vocalsound} when it's plastic , as well .
Industrial Designer: when you throw with uh titanium {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with your remote control .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No uh ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: titanium is a bit uh it's a bit harder .
Marketing: Yeah , that's true .
Project Manager: No , but uh uh , you should ma Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But also on the colours , the young {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , think of the possibilities and make it in {disfmarker} completely titanium . Well would it be more trendy ? More chic ?
Marketing: Yeah , I think it I think it does .
User Interface: Uh , I think titanium nowadays is way more often used than plastic .
Industrial Designer: Yes , but a titanium remote control , when you're uh watching T_V_ uh or your hands are a little bit sweaty , and the {disfmarker}
User Interface: In trendy things .
Marketing: Yeah , o On the other hand , if you want to make fruit {disfmarker} fruity stuff with uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . It's cold in the winter . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , but I I really like the idea of the the the plastic and the big kind of thing .
Industrial Designer: Yes . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But the question is i then it's , you know , is is {disfmarker} it fits in our s philosophy to make it uh sturdy and simple and uh , know , like uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , that's true , that's true .
Industrial Designer: Sports and gaming . Define
Project Manager: When you make it titanium , it becomes more like some kind of gadget you actually don't need . And when it's big and plastic , it's like some fun stuff you can always have around . It's always fun to have something big and plastic around .
User Interface: You have that uh M_P_ three player of Nike , I saw .
Marketing: Yes . Yeah .
User Interface: Isn't that titanium with a little bit of rubber ?
Industrial Designer: Yes , it's w but it is uh plastic .
User Interface: Isn't it {disfmarker} Is plastic ? Well , it's titanium looking .
Industrial Designer: Yes , w we can do that on the on the {disfmarker}
Marketing: What ?
User Interface: Yeah , he is . Here he is . Uh , the {disfmarker} I don't know if you know the M_P_ three player of Nike . 'Kay , uh that that's very uh with rubber , so it's very
Marketing: Oh , yeah . Okay , yeah .
Project Manager: {gap} Yeah , that's beautiful .
Marketing: Yeah , I see .
Industrial Designer: We can make this as a style too .
Marketing: Yeah , but but but {disfmarker}
User Interface: rough .
Industrial Designer: Uh , this is uh just a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh , maybe th maybe this is an {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , I th I think that's difficult , because uh that's different material , and then you gotta have like uh uh uh two material lines of of of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No , we c we can make it from the same kind of plastic .
Marketing: Yeah , if it's just a colour uh which you uh which you change then , I guess it's it's nice to have one of these .
Project Manager: No , I do like the idea of maybe a t titanium kind {disfmarker} type of body w and then with s plastic colouration {gap} around it .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You know , like the the soft stuff ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: but I don't know if it's possible .
Industrial Designer: I don't have the information . Uh , I I didn't got it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But you can't make the plastic give uh the ti titanium look .
User Interface: {vocalsound} True .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: But make it just like shiny .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah yeah , true .
Project Manager: Maybe we should uh shou
Industrial Designer: Like the M_P_ three player .
User Interface: Yeah , maybe that's good idea , yeah . But if you want to la uh yeah , last longer than two weeks or something like that , you can maybe {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: And uh and
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: maybe we sh should we t {gap} I don't know if we should talk about {disfmarker} uh , how how much time have we got left ?
Industrial Designer: Uh , in a lot of other uh
User Interface: I don't know .
Project Manager: Forty minutes .
User Interface: What time does {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: in a lot of other product uh categories like uh even in b in bags industry . Uh , they began with uh t typical uh leather bags , but then they became stylish , with all all si all sort of colours , and w kind of fon {disfmarker} of uh of fronts , like we can use on the telephone and it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Like Eastpack uh began a revolution with it with all this uh kind of bags and and colours and and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} You putting in different colours .
Industrial Designer: Yes , and and styles .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: They have uh also uh a kind of uh um uh roses on it , a and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah , but w yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well , it is . It's a possibility . But , let's think about the bas
Industrial Designer: Then we can always uh use the same design for a greater resemblance , but with new uh with new colours , new {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes . New prints on it . Yep .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: yes .
Project Manager: But wha th our basic idea {disfmarker} y I mean , you gonna {disfmarker} we're probably gonna have like two type of materials , like the d d b the plastic uh enclosure and then the the pads that surround it . And and pro and lights . We have to incorporate the lights too . But , uh do w gonna {gap} gonna {disfmarker} are we going to give it a two-tone colour look , like the the plastic mould is in in one colour and the s the cushion pads around it are in another colour ? Is that the idea ? Is that a good idea ?
Marketing: How do you mean ? Th th the uh base in a in another {disfmarker}
Project Manager: How many colours are we {disfmarker} how many colours are we gonna {disfmarker} we're uh uh f uh f
User Interface: The rubber .
Project Manager: Only five minutes left , by the way . How many colours are we gonna give it ?
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: Like two-tone colour ? T
Industrial Designer: There there are three uh components three components type .
User Interface: Yeah . Uh no , not too much I think .
Industrial Designer: You have the buttons , the the case uh itself , and the rubber and th
Marketing: How the buttons {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: I think maybe the case itself should be in one colour and then the rubber of the buttons , {vocalsound} and the cushions as well should be in another colour .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: Or you just make uh one colour , uh maybe with a a z a kind of like a big wave or something like uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , but not more than {disfmarker}
User Interface: In in another colour .
Project Manager: Well , yeah , it's {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Not more than two colours I think .
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: It's a g a little bit too flashy .
Marketing: No , definitely not .
Project Manager: Maybe we should talk about it on a l in a later meeting .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , or or when you use the buttons as black , it {disfmarker} you can use two colours as well uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes , definitely .
Project Manager: Okay . But we have to uh think of some other uh important things .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} oh yeah , the the functionalities of the the buttons .
User Interface: The funct yeah , I was I was thinking about th the st do we still want a joystick idea .
Project Manager: No . {vocalsound}
Marketing: No , I think that's too vulnerable .
Project Manager: I think this is okay ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: the {disfmarker} so we have the basic . Then we have the numbers . We have the power button . We have we have a teletext button .
User Interface: The volume , teletext and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And maybe want to access a a menu or something . Most T_V_s have a menu .
Marketing: Yeah , but that's that's {disfmarker} I was thinking that's gotta be on the television .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , but I think you ha I really need a menu button .
User Interface: Yeah yeah yeah yeah , b
Project Manager: That's just i the only button {disfmarker} only {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , but wha what kind of menu ?
Project Manager: You know , I {disfmarker}
User Interface: Is uh {disfmarker} isn't that different from every television ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No , I think most T_V_s have an uh a menu nowadays to access the uh uh screen settings . And so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm . {vocalsound} Yeah , if it's c if {disfmarker} Yeah , I think it's okay to to add a menu button for uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But that that covers all the all the other settings . It covers everything then .
Marketing: and if the T_V_ doesn't have a menu , then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But then you have to put uh up and down and uh left and right {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: No , you can use the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , you can put that on the two eight four and six or whatever .
Project Manager: And you al can also use the normal skip buttons for that .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Th in that way we have like only the numbers , the power button , skip and volume , and then uh uh ten uh rem
Marketing: Mm , yeah . A mute and a teletext and a menu .
Project Manager: uh yeah , mute . A teletext and a menu , and then then i that's it .
User Interface: Mute .
Project Manager: It's all we need .
Marketing: That's all .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: Okay , uh another stuf some stuff {vocalsound} about the the the design of the docking station .
Marketing: Great . Yeah .
User Interface: Okay , that's not mu not much functions . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Something important about a s uh , no , uh which sh uh should remind us of the remote itself , I guess .
Marketing: Yeah , definitely .
Project Manager: Uh , in one colour .
Marketing: Are we gonna do something with the uh spongy thing there ?
Project Manager: Just use {disfmarker} I think the spongy thing already um comes forward in the in the in the cushions , pads and things on the s uh side .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , that's true , that's true .
Project Manager: And we will make it spongy and {disfmarker} and uh and uh well , the fruity thing is just the shape should be fru i did {disfmarker} I think this is kind of fruity , you know . Just round shapes with uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , it's kinda fruity , and with th with catchy colours uh uh w
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , but we're gonna have to {disfmarker} we really have to think {disfmarker} I think colours is very important , because it has to be flashy , but {disfmarker} and but it d it doesn't have to be annoying , that when you uh , know , some things is just over the top , and when you have it on your table for more than two weeks , you {disfmarker} {gap} it just gets annoying , because it's so big and flashy .
Marketing: Yeah , definitely .
Project Manager: Uh , it has to be some level of subtlety , but we have to {disfmarker} still have to think of how we manage to uh to get to that .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Guess we're through then .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: I guess so .
Project Manager: But we {disfmarker} I think also we just {disfmarker} so we have to do something with colour but also , I I think we have to keep the dark colour thing in mind . I think that's uh adds to the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: too much colour maybe m um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Too much colour , i it uh {disfmarker} when you got it in a living room , it's too much maybe
Project Manager: But our des design experts will uh work that out .
Marketing: Yea yeah .
User Interface: . It has to be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , well I think the meeting will be over within a minute .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: So we will wrap up .
Marketing: Something like that .
Project Manager: Or is there anything we'd like to discuss ? That's right .
Marketing: I guess not .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Do you , guys ?
User Interface: No .
Marketing: No ?
Project Manager: Okay . Well , you will read the minutes uh in the {disfmarker} you can find them in the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh , okay , yeah .
Marketing: In the shared folder .
Project Manager: pro probably . Yeah {disfmarker} uh no , for su for sure because I'm will now type them out .
Industrial Designer: What are we going to do now ?
Project Manager: Uh , y yeah .
Marketing: You'll see in you email , I guess .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , I don't know . I don't know .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I hope so . And the other thing is that you don't have kind of prototype or something like that . You see a kinda prototype you can {disfmarker} a little bit more uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I will make one in the next uh twenty minutes . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Construct one , yeah .
Project Manager: But {gap} toilet paper roll and uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: With you laptop ? {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Oh my God .
Marketing: Alright , shall we get back to work ?
Project Manager: Yep . I was waiting for the l last message , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Great .
User Interface: Well you are . We're not .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Bastard .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Back to the pen .
Project Manager: Mm yeah .
Marketing: You lazy {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
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Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wouldn't wanna be Project Manager . {vocalsound} Uh , what we going to do .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um , once again I'm uh gonna take minutes . So , um no presentation for me . Uh , first we have a prototype presentation by G_ and G_ .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Afterwards some uh
User Interface: Yo .
Marketing: J_ and J_ . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: eval eval evalu
Industrial Designer: Evaluation .
Project Manager: evaluation
User Interface: Evaluation criteria .
Marketing: Evaluation .
Project Manager: s {vocalsound} sorry .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh evaluation crit criteria . Uh , in combination with the finance I um {vocalsound} uh I received uh a an uh an Excel uh file
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: which we have to fill in later on . Um , you see . Uh , and then we must see uh if we uh stay under the twelve and a half Euro .
Marketing: Hmm . Interesting . Ah , okay .
Project Manager: So , that's uh that's a big
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oops .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . That's gonna be t problem .
Project Manager: l so let's uh wait it uh um
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we have we have must {disfmarker} uh ,
User Interface: Some creative uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we must have uh some time for that uh because it will be uh {disfmarker} yeah , quite a lot of mathematics .
User Interface: Oh . Yeah .
Project Manager: And after that , uh uh an evaluation of uh the process how we uh how we have done it here with the SMARTboard , with the with our laptops , with the {disfmarker} all uh all this . And uh afterwards , uh we closing . Once again , forty minutes , so uh let's start .
User Interface: Ok okay .
Project Manager: I would g give the word to um G_ and G_ for the prototype presentation .
User Interface: Shall I give a short introduction and then uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , well sure .
Marketing: J_ and J_ .
Project Manager: J_ and J_ .
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound} J_ and J_ , okay .
Marketing: Jane and Jane .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'Kay guys , take it away .
User Interface: Take it away .
Industrial Designer: Hi .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um , this was our first concept . We decided to use a single touch-screen . So , we've worked out this concepts , how to how to hold it , where to put the buttons and and stuff . And um , well , we began with uh with a form of shape , that is uh is easy to hold w in one hand , left or right handed .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So , we made i it a little bit less thick and uh it has some ar artistic meaning . No ? This uh isn't nothing . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Idea maybe uh is better .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um well , during the meeting I showed you the concept of uh placing the buttons on top , usable with your thumb , and uh the menu structure , uh if necessary , with your other hand , so it's just gonna hold it easily .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And it has to be acce accessible with your uh other hand too , of course .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: So we began uh working out a concept .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , uh well , and as you saw , we would just have the basic remote with the panel L_C_D_ uh screen . Well , these would be the main buttons , h you could uh change them later on in your own profile if you want to . But , well it's standard they will be delivered with this kind of uh set-up . We have the {gap} more advanced menu uh setting right here . We have the sub-menus and stu stuff . We made a top {disfmarker} oh , or a front view . Just so like you wanna uh back view . As you can see , this uh {disfmarker} there , there are uh two uh weird bumps in it .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} This is for uh the added uh effect of uh well uh y youth and dynamic . And uh this is for the artistic effect .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well , what we figured is uh we'll show you a picture {gap} later on {gap} you have more b a better idea after that . But , idea is for to stay in balance with these two uh {disfmarker} with these two .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: And so when you put it on the table , it will just {gap} lay down . It won't {vocalsound} uh roll around or stuff . But it will lie more in your hand like an old telephone maybe , or like these old uh phones .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Y you you may get the idea . So thi this is about uh how we figured it should be . The s panel we g you would hide with some more uh rubber layers , like we discussed early on . Uh , you would s you wouldn't see the uh straight panel , but more fluidly and round .
User Interface: Yeah , the panel just uh of course goes like this .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: But the overlaying layer is uh a little bit uh curved and stuff .
Project Manager: No , okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And uh , in these bumps you could actually uh {gap} put some electronics uh that would {disfmarker} you can make a more thinner uh design ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and that would actually look very nice , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And uh , about the colour , what have {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . Oh , we added that this um can be held with your hands for this {disfmarker} maximum is om yeah , one and a half centimetres . So , you have room here for your battery and maybe even other um electronic chips . S and you can just be the the layer of the touchscreen and some {disfmarker} have some wires underneath it to make it as uh thin as possible in the middle for good grip .
Marketing: Okay . Hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , f uh , as colours , do you do you have the picture in uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah . Now , well this is the idea about uh the bumps . Uh , you can see there's a v a very uh youthful uh dynamic uh exterior . It uh {disfmarker} you just want to hold it you uh you are young and uh dynamic like us .
Marketing: 'S l {disfmarker} it's like an uh Easter egg .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's like an e but this is for children . We we want a more adult version . But , this is like a remote control for children .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's called a weemote {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} . A weemote .
Marketing: Weemote .
Project Manager: Weemote .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Hey , that's actually a brilliant uh marketing stand .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait what I w got in mind . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So this actually basic the idea . We we just want to build a more uh adult vers adult version of of this .
Project Manager: Yeah , I can imagine that .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And and for colours , we we figured starting with basic colours like uh white or metallic grey . Those are the technological colours actually ,
User Interface: Yeah . It would be best to to appeal to a broad public and make the covers exchangeable ,
Industrial Designer: so it d
User Interface: so the young people will buy an orange and a red and blue and a purple ,
Industrial Designer: Or blue or whatever .
User Interface: but when the o older people uh go in the shop and they see uh an orange um remote control , it would be less appealing than a white one . And young people , we think , are a little bit more flexible ,
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: they think , ah I'll buy for a couple of Euros some noi nice hip uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm . Maybe it's an idea to sell it without a cover , so that you can pick a cover in the in the shop .
User Interface: Well , um I think a cover is necessary , 'cause als otherwise you'll just have the L_C_D_ screen .
Marketing: Yeah , okay . Yeah , okay .
User Interface: So , there must be some cheap standard cover , um maybe white or something ,
Marketing: Hmm . Mm .
User Interface: that's could comes with it and you can buy , so we can make extra money .
Project Manager: Yeah , but uh you d you mustn't forget that uh our target aim is younger people .
Marketing: Oui okay .
Project Manager: Uh , we had decided to uh put uh some flashy fruity colours in it , uh and uh in the survey from uh Milan and Paris uh it uh it came out that uh uh the d the older people are uh more willing to uh to spend money on extra features . So I think uh it will be a better idea to have some uh flashy fruity colours as as a standard ,
User Interface: Okay . The other way around , you mean .
Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh yeah .
Project Manager: and for the people who uh really want uh a more sophisticated , more traditional look , they're willing to pay uh that .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Project Manager: They want uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want more luxury stuff ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: but they have the money to do it and they want to b to buy that .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So , maybe it's an idea to put that as an extra and not as a standard .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} yeah , perhaps you're right . Uh , I I would I would actually agree with this sounds logical .
User Interface: Okay , yeah .
Marketing: An another idea . Uh , maybe we could uh develop a cover uh with wood style .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} They'll please the elder users as well .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Well yeah , a colour of {disfmarker} a wood style , a white c and uh a couple of h hip uh fruity colours .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: And lea uh l delivered standard with a fruity colour , but not too not too much .
Industrial Designer: Nah . Yeah .
Marketing: Yes . Not not too uh {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: This is banana and mango , not not purple or p orange and yellow .
Marketing: Yeah , exactly .
Project Manager: Yeah . But , the mai I think th uh the standard must be some kind of uh uh attractive flashy colours .
Marketing: Yeah . Or blue or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Not too , but w a little ,
User Interface: Ah . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: because that's our aim .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: li like like this like this .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: This isn't this isn't too much , is it ?
User Interface: Yeah , okay . No . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I f
Marketing: {gap} .
Project Manager: Well , the buttons don't have to be uh all uh all of {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} The buttons ,
Marketing: Well I I I think so .
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , except for the buttons it's {disfmarker} it could be a standard model .
Project Manager: yeah . It {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , uh something like this would be nice .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay , that's that's it from us .
Project Manager: Thank you .
Marketing: 'Kay , it's my time now .
User Interface: It's my turn .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The Marketing Expert .
Industrial Designer: Uh-oh .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: During the {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh . {vocalsound} During the design uh design life-cycle we uh
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: we made lot of requirements and trend analysis and stuff . Um , now is the time to uh evaluate our prototype concept to uh to the past requirements . {vocalsound} So we are going to evaluate the design according to the past user requirements and trends analysis . Um , we're going to do that with a seven point scale . Opening a Word document now . Okay . One {disfmarker} oh , okay , uh I have to expla explain something . We have to uh be consensive about about things . So , it has to be a group uh group decision .
Project Manager: Okay ,
Marketing: Okay ?
Project Manager: so we gon we gonna evaluate the
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} We're going to vote . We {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , the the thing we {gap} saw .
Marketing: yeah ? The prototype .
Project Manager: Okay , just saw .
Marketing: Yeah . Okay , one . The remote control is designed for people with age below forty .
Project Manager: Yeah . Seven ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Seven is false .
Project Manager: Uh , true . {vocalsound} Sorry .
Marketing: Yeah , b one or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , one I think .
Industrial Designer: Why ?
Marketing: Most true ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's not just uh designed for people under the age of forty . It's also designed for people above forty .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: so a o one is appropriate ?
User Interface: No no , a little more in the middle .
Marketing: Or , more like a four .
User Interface: No , uh three or {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: I have {disfmarker} I've {disfmarker}
Marketing: Three .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , two or three , because it's not just {disfmarker} uh the qu question is aimed at is it designed for people with age below forty .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: But it's also designed for people of age above forty . So ,
Marketing: Ah , exactly . Exactly .
Industrial Designer: I'll say it's about three .
User Interface: Yeah ,
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: it will be primary appealing to to m minus forty , but also appealing to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Three .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . But also for {disfmarker} yeah , okay . Uh , second . The remote control is beautiful .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wow .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , acco according to us , it's one ? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , I I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: it's the marketing uh angle on television .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah ,
User Interface: We have a wonderful {disfmarker}
Marketing: p s Of c of course you have to be uh very positive and uh enthusiastic about your own product .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well , it's also fancy then .
Marketing: Three . Uh , the remote control looks fancy .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: One ?
Project Manager: Yep .
User Interface: Of course . We have a perfect remote .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Good . Four . The remote control has big , clear channel switching buttons .
User Interface: Yes . Yeah yeah , oh they have to agree but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Leads to user face , yeah .
User Interface: I'm the User Interface uh Expert . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Daniel . Uh , teletext buttons and volume buttons ?
User Interface: Um , uh no .
Project Manager: No teletext buttons . Teletext is in the menu .
User Interface: You you've different menu .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , false .
Marketing: False ?
User Interface: And volume is impo
Marketing: And volume ?
Project Manager: Volume is true .
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: True .
Industrial Designer: Uh , hmm .
Marketing: Big and clear ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , the they are big and clear . {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah yeah , big and clear .
Project Manager: Yeah , big and clear .
User Interface: But you could make a teletext button uh six .
Marketing: Hey .
User Interface: Otherwise , the people who read this uh are gonna think we have no teletext button .
Marketing: Hey . Hide .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but but the teletext button . Yeah , you can ch That's in a menu .
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's it's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So , it's w yeah , it {disfmarker} it it
Marketing: yeah , it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: it isn't entirely unclear ,
Marketing: J
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} So , I wouldn't give it a seven .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: I would give it a more a five or a six .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Five ?
Industrial Designer: Uh , I don I don't know .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: What do you think , uh Mister Project Manager ?
Marketing: Yeah , it's it's {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Oh , okay . Well , I agree . I was thinking very black and white .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: Black and red . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you J_ . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay , don't forget to save it . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Red . Okay . Volume . The remote control is easy to be found .
User Interface: Uh well , when we put in fancy colours , yeah
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fruity . {vocalsound}
User Interface: and {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it has these {disfmarker} all these fruity colours and it has a strange shape .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So , if you so if you have {vocalsound} trouble finding it {disfmarker}
User Interface: But , um it it's not making any sound uh ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: have we deciding ?
Marketing: Oh , okay ,
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: but {disfmarker} If you put uh your normal uh remote control under your bed , or you throw this remote control under your bed , is it better findable ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll make a difference . We have the better re {vocalsound} I don't know . Yeah , I think so . My remote control's black .
Marketing: A li little bit maybe ?
User Interface: A little bit , but {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Well , we p we can do it glow in the dark .
Marketing: Four ?
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Fi
Project Manager: So , if it's in the dark place , you still see it glowing .
User Interface: {vocalsound} K yeah .
Marketing: I {disfmarker}
User Interface: Fo fo yeah fo five is {gap} .
Marketing: Ah , I I I think five . It's it's {disfmarker} it doesn't really make a lot of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well , then uh then I'll go for four .
Marketing: Four ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Because uh four is between three and uh uh also between between true and false .
User Interface: Yeah , okay , you're right .
Industrial Designer: Uh ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes , but five is between four and six . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so I'll I'll go for four .
Project Manager: Ah , you must see it as uh , w uh according to uh the the other uh remote controls , there may uh uh be there in your uh T_V_ room , this one will stand out , I think .
Industrial Designer: Wha
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: B_ .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that that's a better question actually .
Marketing: Yeah ,
Project Manager: Exa I think that that's what it's about .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: it {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: If your uh fifteen remotes in a drawer , uh you find it , yeah ?
Project Manager: If it {disfmarker} if this lying on your couch , you're you're {disfmarker} you think what's that for kinda orange uh thing .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: But but the survey under users was that they uh really lost it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , that's stupid . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Like , no not uh not seeing it , but lost it in the house or something .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: Uh , but when you lost it you're just not {disfmarker}
Marketing: But , okay .
Industrial Designer: Well , if i if you see a strange shape lying somewhere , uh then you'd uh recognise it as , whoa , that is strange .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's our remote control . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , mostly when you lose your remote control , it it's under your {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , okay . Yeah , I I agree , I agree .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah , what is that . Uh ,
User Interface: Most of times when you lose it you're sitting on it . Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . Eight , the remote control has fresh , fruity colours .
Project Manager: True . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um I would call uh {disfmarker} choose two ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: 'cause we decided not to make two f uh fresh colours , as it would not {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah , not too flashy .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: The remote control is made of soft material .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , rubber , is kind of soft .
Project Manager: Yeah , but not too soft we have decided .
User Interface: kinda soft , but but not this {gap} . Yeah .
Marketing: Three ?
Project Manager: Three , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah yeah , easy to use ,
Project Manager: Easy to use . One .
User Interface: {vocalsound} very afford .
Marketing: Easy to use ?
Project Manager: Yeah , can it be zero ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well , {vocalsound} I don yeah , it is kind of {disfmarker}
Marketing: Top easy to use ?
Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's it's not the most easy to use {disfmarker}
User Interface: No , you can do two , because um
Industrial Designer: No . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: It can be easier .
User Interface: it can be easier . But then you're l
Industrial Designer: It could {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: Jus just with ten buttons , that's the easiest .
User Interface: yeah , but then you'll lose {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: function f yeah , functionality and our fancy uh look , so .
Industrial Designer: Functional ability .
Marketing: Yeah , but the most uh easy to use is just with one button
User Interface: But {disfmarker} It is r it is rather easy to use , because you have the primary buttons always visible .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: on t {vocalsound} Yeah , okay , but easy n not not the most easy to use , I think .
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: No , it's it {disfmarker} I I'll go for two . My vote's on two . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Two ?
Project Manager: Okay , two . Yeah , two .
User Interface: Yeah , m mine too .
Marketing: We also have to compare it to the uh to the remote controls on the market nowadays . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , but waits just a minutes . Inspiration .
Project Manager: What's the time ? We also have uh to do the evaluation , uh the production costs and uh stuff .
User Interface: These are the m regular remotes .
Marketing: Yeah yeah , I'm uh hurrying .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay , eleven . The remote control is innovative .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yes , true , one .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: You're agree , Tim ?
Marketing: A very {disfmarker} of course .
Project Manager: You haven't seen a more innovative uh thing in uh Paris ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: The remote control has m remova {vocalsound} removable {gap} from Multilux .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes , one . Very multifunctional .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No .
Marketing: The remote control , i it has speech recognition .
Project Manager: False .
Industrial Designer: Yes ,
Marketing: False .
Industrial Designer: it {disfmarker}
User Interface: This is used with speech recognition , this .
Marketing: The remote control has built-in games ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes . But uh , maybe make it two , because the games are in a sub-menu and not uh {disfmarker} it's not an entire game .
Project Manager: Yeah , but they are built in , so it's one .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , they are built in .
User Interface: Yeah , okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Not down .
Marketing: And the last , paren {vocalsound} parental advisory function . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You really like the parental advisory . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: Freak . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes , {vocalsound} I do .
User Interface: Th did you make this or the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Bu
Marketing: Save as .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , he made it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} It changes it maybe .
Marketing: Okay , I will uh
User Interface: Oh yay .
Marketing: do the the math .
User Interface: Oh dear .
Marketing: Now it's your turn .
Project Manager: Okay , thank you . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We'll see .
User Interface: Hmm ?
Project Manager: Mm . Okay , we have now to c uh to calculate the production cost . If it's under uh twelve and half Euro , then it's uh ok uh okay . But i is it {disfmarker} if it is b Huh ? No , this isn't right . Okay so , {gap} . Redesign .
User Interface: If they're under twelve fifty .
Project Manager: Oh yeah , if they under {disfmarker} Yeah . No . Oh yeah . Yeah , it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah ? Cau 'cause {disfmarker} so it's okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: sorry . Yeah , if the costs are under twelve and a half Euro , uh then we uh can uh ra uh move on to the project evaluation , as we have uh experienced it . Otherwise , we have uh do uh have to do a little uh redesign uh thingy . So {disfmarker} Uh , we have to fill in the numbers of the component uh components . We have to uh fil uh , want to uh do it in and uh see uh if we stay under the twelve and a half Euro . So , do we have uh a hand dynamo ? No .
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: That's zero .
Industrial Designer: Me , too .
User Interface: Battery , yes . One .
Project Manager: Battery , one ?
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: One , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Kinetic , one ?
User Interface: Kinetic , one .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , solar cells , zero .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , uh simple chip on print ?
Industrial Designer: Uh , n no .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: No ? No , advanced chip .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: No .
Marketing: Advanced chip .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Sample sensor sample speaker ?
User Interface: No , the advanced chip is uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No .
Marketing: Advanced chip is three .
Project Manager: Three ?
Marketing: Three Euros , yep .
Project Manager: Yeah uh , but it it's one one thing , it's three Euro .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh , we have one . We have one {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay , one piece , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Project Manager: Uh , what's the sample sensor ?
Industrial Designer: No , sev zero .
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: Well , that's um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Speech recognition , I think .
User Interface: Yeah , you give it a sample , uh one .
Industrial Designer: yeah , speech recognition
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: and s
Project Manager: Zero . Uh , uncurved flat .
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: A zero .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: But is it s it's not made from a single uncurved thingy and then uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and then uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: You {disfmarker} no .
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: No . No .
Marketing: Thingy . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: no ? Okay . {vocalsound} So it's only uh once double-curved .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah ,
Marketing: Yes ,
User Interface: 'cause um the layer around it fits around the bubbles on the o on the uh the back of the {disfmarker}
Marketing: three . Eight .
Project Manager: Okay . We're now in a problem , 'cause uh we have uh reached eleven Euro yet .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh , we don't have anything else . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay , go on . Just go on .
Project Manager: Okay , but uh we have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Just go on . Then we'll see uh {disfmarker} we'll we'll see uh wha how much we are over budget .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Could you step a little to the right ma
Marketing: Two .
User Interface: Yeah . Oh , sorry .
Marketing: Two .
Project Manager: Uh , rubber .
User Interface: Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You .
Industrial Designer: Zero .
Project Manager: Titanium , no ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: And zero . Special uh {disfmarker} is the special colour ?
Project Manager: Special colour ?
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: I don't think so . No , this is a standard colour .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , but we want to make uh the wood colours , uh that uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} S
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes , this is a special colour . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , if if you're honest , we'll uh type one , special colour .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , but but D but Daniel , tha that's that's another brand .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's an add-on .
Project Manager: Yeah , one .
Marketing: That's another article to sell .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , but we we going to {disfmarker} yeah yeah , that's true . But yeah , it's it's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh , j maybe we'll finish uh the the list first and then look back , aye ?
Marketing: That doesn't account for this . Producing this .
Project Manager: Okay , the push-button , no .
User Interface: No . Scroll wheel , no .
Project Manager: Scroll-wheel , no .
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} No .
Project Manager: No . Oh , no . Yes , one .
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh , button , no .
User Interface: One , yeah .
Project Manager: No , the the {disfmarker}
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: Mm , is it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we don't have a s
User Interface: No . No .
Industrial Designer: These three .
Project Manager: no . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Well , we're only four Euro over budget .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Oh , okay . So , um what's the thing we can change ?
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: No . No .
Industrial Designer: Well , other case , we can make it single-curved or uncurved .
Project Manager: Uh , can I uh I say something ?
User Interface: Mm , single-curves .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: No , can I say something uh as Project Manager ?
Marketing: Yeah , of course . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: The kinetic thing , can we just skip it ,
User Interface: Just cut off the kine yeah .
Project Manager: because uh you have to shake it , but that's not really innovative .
User Interface: Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Okay , sure .
User Interface: yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah , we just put a good battery it it .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Mobile phones nowadays .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Daniel . Daniel ,
Project Manager: Yo . Sorry ,
Marketing: what do you think about {disfmarker} Here .
Project Manager: yeah , yes . {vocalsound}
Marketing: What do you think about uh putting a battery in it , but also selling like uh the covers , a docking station
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: just apart from the from the thing , so that you can uh put uh
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} rechargeable batteries in it and just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: But you can use rechargeable batteries anyway , just you s you have to recharge them manual .
Project Manager: Yeah , and not really {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah , okay .
Project Manager: But we {disfmarker} if you forget about the kinetic ,
Marketing: Just an idea .
User Interface: Yeah , that's a cost reduc
Industrial Designer: Yeah , sure .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: well if we do that , we shall {gap} .
User Interface: Ah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay ,
Project Manager: So um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: well you you can go from double-curved to single-curved .
Marketing: Yeah , of course .
Industrial Designer: And that would solve the budget problem .
Project Manager: Uh , b but i but the single-curved is just {disfmarker} oh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , so we have to bake the ba back flat , and then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: No , it's it's just one curve and not a back uh curved I think . Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's just {disfmarker} yeah well , the single-curve that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh , okay , okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Exactly , yeah .
Project Manager: So that's wh tha that's one option .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Or are these two curves ? Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then w yeah , and then we could have it , but uh {disfmarker} it's its' well it's it's r it is the main point of the the the the look .
Marketing: Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , but what else uh do we have to cut out ? No advanced chip , uh that's a little bit of problem .
Industrial Designer: We going to cut {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No , tho uh that that can be done .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So uh ,
User Interface: Although , can we make it with a regular chip ?
Project Manager: okay , a little less uh conversation .
User Interface: Curvy .
Marketing: Hey , those ar arcs , why are there for ?
Project Manager: Sorry ?
Marketing: The blue blue uh
Project Manager: Fill in {gap} {disfmarker} Just a
User Interface: Explanation .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: explanation .
User Interface: Twelve fifty .
Project Manager: I can delete it for you if you want .
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: No , no no .
Project Manager: So , if we do this , uh we're on uh twelve and a half Euro . And we're done .
User Interface: Yeah , but does it fit with our design ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh well , the only uh thing that don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Do we have to u adapt it ? It's single-curves .
Project Manager: Yeah , single-curved , but there's a curve in it . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: W Could we just make the bubbles uh cut off the back , and then we're uh has {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we just make it flat .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: But , you do l
Marketing: But , wha 'Kay , look , what is the uh {disfmarker} If you make it double-curved , it costs one Euro more .
User Interface: More . Yeah . You make it optional .
Marketing: But {disfmarker} No , but does it have a lot of extra uh {gap}
Industrial Designer: Function .
User Interface: Functional .
Marketing: fun function more like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Worth , does it have added worth ?
User Interface: Uh , there's an a a athe aesthetic value , but not functionality .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: No , um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , it's really a static value . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , uh aesthetic . I mean , uh you make like eleven and a half Euros profit instead of twelve and a half . But {disfmarker} I don't know if twelve and a half is uh a fixed uh fixed price .
Project Manager: Yeah , it is . Oh .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , well let's assume it is .
Marketing: No , we can't go above that .
Industrial Designer: We we should assume it i that it is .
Marketing: Yeah ?
Project Manager: Yeah , okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But I I figured that the kinetic would be a marketing promotion .
Marketing: Yeah , okay . Then it's okay .
Industrial Designer: R if you uh promote a kinetic um {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} kinetic remote control , I mean , that would b sell better than an {disfmarker} a normal remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Do you think ? Well , now you can shake your remote {gap} control . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , I think so .
Industrial Designer: No , well , y I mean uh , y you can go into your neighbour and tell him , ha , my k uh remote control is kinetic .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Kinetic .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You have standard old battery control uh remote con
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: What a what about all the m the environment freaks ?
User Interface: Yeah , but it doesn't fit in our co cost profile . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Not freaks ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: the envi No .
Industrial Designer: True .
Marketing: I I think it's it's {disfmarker} It look like this one .
User Interface: You ma can make an an especialised extra gold version .
Project Manager: Yeah ? Who {disfmarker} because if you want to go to kinetic , you're uh you're on thirteen and a half and you must go to flat ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and I think now it's it's more of uh a compromise
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: thing .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: And if you make the single curve ha just a big curve , {vocalsound} then it's uh then it's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , just one big curve . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah , one big good curve .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I was going to uh say nasty words , but I don't .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is strange by the way .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Wood is m is is is cheaper than rubber . We thought that wood would be more expensive .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Uh , this uh American figures . You just cut down some trees . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , maybe . But uh that {disfmarker} this is this is it ? Yeah . Okay , this is it .
Marketing: This is it .
User Interface: Whoever makes uh a remote control out of titanium .
Project Manager: I'm gonna save it . Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It is possible , but you can't use double uh curves for titanium .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: That's one of the functionability uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , well , considering we have {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah no , we have to do all those hours again .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Go back . One back ? Costs on uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No redesign . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , we were above , so we did a little redesign {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: We sue . {vocalsound} We {vocalsound} Yeah , we'll start her all o all over again .
Marketing: Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} okay , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , um now uh it's about time to uh talk about uh this project . Uh , some uh things . Were there uh room for uh {disfmarker} was there room for creativity in our meetings or in your individual meetings ?
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm . I I didn't think so . That {disfmarker} there was a lot of room for it . But , that's mainly because uh of the information that was delivered to us .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: It was just fixed information and get your stuff from there , and I couldn't go on on i on the internet and search my own stuff . Bu
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah . That's true . I agree with that .
Industrial Designer: Well , I th I think you two , {vocalsound} uh especially you and uh and uh Daniel , you d you you both had uh the less creative uh roles in the project .
Project Manager: Yeah . That's true .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: For us , there was a lot of creativity .
Industrial Designer: 'Cause I think m
User Interface: We could just sign up an uh remote if we liked .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , that's true .
Industrial Designer: I think Jeroen and I , we had a more design {disfmarker} we could have more {disfmarker} we had more room for creativity than than you two .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah , that's true .
Project Manager: Okay . Uh how about the leadership ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ha .
Marketing: Leadership was uh crappy .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Crappy . {vocalsound} Cra
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah , the leadership wasn't crappy , it was the leader that was crappy .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay , thank you very much .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah . No , the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} leadership was okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now we're done . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , example of crappy leadershi
Marketing: No , leadership was uh
User Interface: Okay , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it was good .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay , I thought uh the first meeting was a little bit of unstructured meeting .
Project Manager: Yeah , that's true .
Marketing: Uh , you could have {disfmarker} but uh , it was your first , no uh no disrespect or something ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but you could have uh structure it a l little bit more .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So like , I I was talking most of the time the first meeting meeting , and {disfmarker}
User Interface: You could of said , shut up you fool . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . I notice it too .
Marketing: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I was a I was also very uh unhappy , uh very unsatisfied uh about the
Marketing: About me . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} about the first meeting .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , uh I hope uh uh the the the other meetings uh
Industrial Designer: Try to learn from your mistake . {vocalsound} And we will never do it again . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , you made up . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: get better and uh I think the the last two meetings uh also we we reached uh some good decisions about uh talk {disfmarker}
Marketing: No , it {disfmarker} you did better .
User Interface: Yeah , more more consensus .
Project Manager: yeah .
User Interface: Ev everybody w was agreeing every {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Much more constructive .
Project Manager: Okay , so uh that's cool .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh , teamwork ? Well , maybe that's uh only {disfmarker} Yeah well , it's for us , because uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , we work together on a project , but everybody has his own task .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah and it's wo more like presentation and some points were discussed .
User Interface: So , it is a little bit {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But , really teamwork were you two uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . No {disfmarker} Well , it went okay .
Marketing: Two guys .
Project Manager: The {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that went w it went well .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: It's it's just uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid stupid pen , but uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No hard feelings .
Industrial Designer: Nah . Yeah , we we had some trouble with the pen , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Now you you must push a little while .
User Interface: Yeah , but but draw something uh difficult .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but us {disfmarker}
User Interface: D uh just write your name right now .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Try to write your name ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: in in writing letters , of course , yeah ? Yeah , normally , uh this uh {disfmarker} the w Block letter sign it , yeah ?
Project Manager: O Just uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Just just write your name in in one line .
Project Manager: okay .
User Interface: If it's a little bit too small {disfmarker} {gap} bit quicker now .
Project Manager: You can be {disfmarker} you can go quicker , 'cause then it it won't notice it .
User Interface: It didn't {disfmarker} Uh he he knows how it works , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh .
Project Manager: I follow the Master class for the SMARTboard , so I think that's the that's the main issue .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um , so uh about this one you were uh you're dealing with ,
Marketing: Means .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um the the the the digital pen .
User Interface: Y well , yeah . Th the i The idea is great , but it doesn't work properly . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah .
Marketing: Digital pen , I thought uh th the first time I did individual work , I used it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: But , a and the first two meetings I brought it with me , but I didn't use it at all after the first the first meeting .
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: No , I have it working . But , uh yeah , well uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's it's not real real use for me .
Industrial Designer: No , it doesn't have that much added value to the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Huh . Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Nee . As uh as I said a m a c few moments ago , it {disfmarker} I would like , myself , to write with a normal pen , because must um {disfmarker} Yeah , it's almost the same concept , but you can just sim more simply put it on our scanner .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: I it's the same concept as the pen , where you f have to download the software or s uh very uh slow .
Project Manager: M yeah . Yeah . And it is still your own handwriting uh popping up in uh Word .
User Interface: Yes . No , and it doesn't give any added value .
Project Manager: No , uh that's true . No .
Marketing: Not really , no .
Project Manager: And uh the SMARTboard is uh useful , but the the pen is I uh {gap} {disfmarker} not user-friendly , I think .
User Interface: Yeah , not user-friendly .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Be it it takes a lot of time to draw things and to write things ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , and it's it's not very precise .
Project Manager: and that's the {disfmarker}
User Interface: We're trying to m to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , like when you do this .
User Interface: Yeah , it may um {disfmarker} Yeah , and tr try to wri write your name uh in a in a normal uh size , yeah . Smaller .
Marketing: Smaller ?
User Interface: Yeah , smaller . Just like when you're writing on a letter .
Project Manager: Yeah , but that's not th the the {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} when you {gap} at a foreign audience , you b don't gonna wr uh write uh small .
User Interface: No , a as you saw on on this drawing , just open open this one or that one . It's uh th it it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , uh we had more problems even here when we trying to draw these buttons , it's almost impossible to get clear uh {gap} when you're uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Oh . Sorry .
Project Manager: But maybe there's some function with {disfmarker} no , it isn't . With uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: And the eraser was another problem . It w t is is this large . {vocalsound} And when you try to erase this line , y {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Well , I'm gonna erase my uh name . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm gonna erase my name there .
Project Manager: Yeah , it's a big uh big eraser .
Marketing: Okay . New ideas ?
User Interface: M Abo What kind of new ideas ?
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Well , the the idea of the touch-screen is uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Do you ?
User Interface: Yeah , uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Go on . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: New ideas about uh the working of this software , about about the project , about the remote controls or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Mm , yeah , I think so .
Project Manager: I don't know what what I mean . {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} No .
User Interface: Hello .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Did you heard what he said ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Know what I mean . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I don't {vocalsound} I don't know what I mean . {vocalsound} Oh , I have some figure .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Here .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh .
Marketing: The eva the evaluation ,
Project Manager: Oh yeah .
Marketing: the mm the mean uh number is uh one point eight one point eight six .
Project Manager: That's interesting .
Marketing: So that's fairly uh fairly good , I think .
Project Manager: Okay ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: because what does it mean ?
User Interface: So true .
Marketing: Uh , that uh
Project Manager: All the mo yeah , are between one and two .
Marketing: all the requirements uh are true or very true , right . Yep .
Project Manager: Yeah . Oh , okay . Yeah , okay . Thank you , expert .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But the new ideas found for uh wi with working with this uh software ?
User Interface: Not really , just they have to improve it .
Project Manager: Not really , yeah ?
User Interface: Uh , the concept is okay ,
Project Manager: Yeah , I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: but it has to be quicker . Uh , it is still opening my programme , n almo almost uh my entire computer is locked up during the process
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: and it , yeah , just takes too many time . People will still feel the need to to write it quickly on uh a page and not download it and save it , and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . You had expected it to to be uh more more uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: More user-friendly .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} 'Cause when you use a pen , you can just draw like you d draw normally ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: and you do
Marketing: May maybe the idea you proposed is uh a screen here .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: And draw it , and it's it's placed over there .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , that l
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Would be easier . Or at least when you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you don't have to adapt to the technology , just you can write in the way you normally write . And now you have to um keep constantly in mind that you're drawing on this screen .
Marketing: Hmm ? No .
User Interface: And that's a very bad concept .
Project Manager: Yep , yep . Yeah , that's true .
Marketing: Ah , very bad .
User Interface: Nah , okay , I I {disfmarker} it's my opinion that I {disfmarker}
Marketing: But {disfmarker} I think this is better than regular flip-overs , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , it's can be saved easier .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: But if you're in normal flip-over {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} a lot of people write text . There's no text option .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: And writing text {disfmarker} uh , yeah , you've gotta really do your best to write some {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , and and maybe some uh functions for uh {vocalsound} uh uh circle or uh a square . You have to draw it yourself now .
User Interface: Yeah . Or maybe even insert picture .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: If you have uh some presentation , and you have some f
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Or text function . Just t t type text , and that that would be uh excellent .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , but insert image isn't available ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} 'Cause then you could {disfmarker}
Marketing: Here . Picture from scanner , clip-art .
Project Manager: Yeah , that that can be done already .
User Interface: Oh , okay .
Project Manager: But not the the the the predefined uh squares I think uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: So you can {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hyperlink ? Hey , what if you do like hyperlink ?
User Interface: With uh W_W_ dot Google dot com .
Marketing: Type type it ?
User Interface: Oh yeah . Maybe {gap} .
Marketing: Re Real Reaction dot N_L_ .
Project Manager: Hmm ? Sorry ?
Marketing: Yes , is {disfmarker} now is okay . Okay ?
User Interface: You'll just make a link in {disfmarker} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Huh .
Project Manager: Well , that's nice .
User Interface: There's one way to uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is it {disfmarker}
Marketing: 'Kay , double-click it .
User Interface: Maybe if if you're not using the eraser {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Here . oh . Oh , sorry .
Marketing: You're erasing .
User Interface: Something else th Yeah , arrow .
Project Manager: Yeah . Here , that .
Marketing: Double-click it .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So you have {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: as you saw , you have a little uh {disfmarker} Oh , you can {disfmarker} Yeah , thank you . You can go uh
User Interface: Yeah , okay .
Project Manager: there . So there the the the functionality is there , but it's not it's not ideal ,
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and it's it's very {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap} .
Project Manager: it costs a lot of time to uh
User Interface: To use , yeah .
Project Manager: to use . And that's a pity ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: if you uh if you have uh thirty , forty minutes uh for this kind of things ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: and we are now with four people ,
User Interface: And that's m
Project Manager: but it {disfmarker} well , imagine you are here {disfmarker} you're with the ten people and everyone uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's mostly the case , from the {disfmarker} over here with the managements you get two minutes to make your case ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: and if you have to do all this kind {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Two minutes of drawing , yeah .
User Interface: You'll rather use PowerPoint and work it out in advance .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: And th the one or two things you have to draw when you're there , just use a flip-board .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: What I really miss also is uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} is a d is a turtle {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: is a decision uh decision system like um {disfmarker} With the evaluation , you have to Polls like , what do you want , a one , a two ,
Project Manager: Yeah yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: maybe a a l a little application like uh uh {vocalsound} give your own number and click one two three four five six seven .
Project Manager: Yeah , just like he said with the with the {disfmarker} a screen which you can write , also uh a kind of voting uh mechanism .
Marketing: Yeah , j ju ju yeah , v voting application .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Just a little group group decision application .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But uh , {gap} problem is , well you can't discuss anything {disfmarker} well you you ca uh you can , but you will discuss a lot less than l like we did now . We {disfmarker} I mean uh w w w one one person s maybe said three .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But , well uh I {disfmarker} we said {disfmarker} uh , no I w th think two , because this and this , and then you can react uh on it .
Marketing: Yeah , okay .
Industrial Designer: But if you you put a three on it , uh just {vocalsound} figure well , everybody knows what I'm knowing , so they'll all just put a two on .
Marketing: Yeah , of course . But , uh you can still discuss about it ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but it would {disfmarker} {gap} yeah .
Marketing: but but click it in an application , that's a lot easier to process .
Industrial Designer: Yeah okay , the {disfmarker} for processing part .
Marketing: {vocalsound} The digit . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But then uh , I think the idea of one person entering it and the rest uh discussing it , that uh isn't that bad idea , actually .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Not that your opinion isn't valued , but but still .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Yo , manager .
Marketing: That's it ?
Project Manager: Uh well , just about ,
User Interface: When are w
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because uh
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: When are we going to produce it ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , tomorrow ? Uh , the costs are within the budget .
Marketing: Celebration .
Project Manager: Uh , the project is evaluated .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: But , before we going to celebrate , uh I have uh a little question which you can't answer ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: because uh there must be some kind of end report . I am busy with the end report right now . You might thinking what the hell was he doing uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: What is an end report ?
Project Manager: Uh about all the meetings , what we have decided , a r r a report of this day .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Uh , that must be made , but I don't know , {vocalsound} here is uh standing uh whoa , we can celebrate now , but the end report is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh , you ha you have ten minutes left , I uh read .
User Interface: Oh .
Marketing: You have now ten minutes left to finish up the end report .
Project Manager: Okay well , that uh that can be done . Maybe we can do it uh together . You can see what I've uh {disfmarker} yeah ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So I I s I will uh put it on a story-board .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , sure .
Project Manager: You can see it . Because I think it will uh it must be uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} You you already made a beta version , or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , it's a three uh {gap} with seventy five uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Pages . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , just about .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Y yikes . {vocalsound} Seventy five pages .
Project Manager: Well , just a moment . End report .
Marketing: Okay , Daniel .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Do you want a chair maybe ?
User Interface: A chairman . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No no no ,
Marketing: Hey ?
Project Manager: I'm just uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh , okay .
Project Manager: you can s you can read it and uh {disfmarker} here here it is . End report .
Industrial Designer: So you you finished it actually , and so we just have to read it and say yes or no ?
Project Manager: Well , this not nit it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: read-only . But it's not uh fully finished yet .
Marketing: Five minutes for finishing .
Project Manager: Um , this is about the functional design , the things {disfmarker} yeah yeah .
Marketing: Management Expert , you have to change that .
Project Manager: Oh yeah . I'm uh {disfmarker} when I said it , I remember I had it here .
Marketing: Marketing .
User Interface: It's a read-only version .
Marketing: Yeah , but you can save it u the {disfmarker} under another name .
User Interface: Oh , okay .
Project Manager: Marketing Expert , okay . Um about the three functions where {disfmarker} uh which are most used and uh which must uh immediately be visible on our uh remote control . Um , it must be uh simple to use , very clear what to do , and at the younger people . So , this is really about wh uh what kind things uh must be in it and uh {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: Maybe um the {disfmarker} {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , I understand you , I can talk a little bit Dutch . {vocalsound}
Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No , you have to put {disfmarker} uh , switch channels uh at the top , because that's the most used function and teletext at the second {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oka okay , okay , I {disfmarker} I really {vocalsound} didn't knew that .
Marketing: Oh nay , a volume changing , second .
Project Manager: So , this one's first .
Marketing: S switch , yes .
Project Manager: You go there and you go there . So , okay .
Marketing: Yeah . Okay , go on .
Project Manager: Well , maybe I can then do it one two three .
Marketing: Yes , very good .
User Interface: One two three .
Project Manager: If the order is in uh {disfmarker} is is uh important ,
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: that's the word for {gap} .
Marketing: The order .
Project Manager: Uh ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} then the conceptual design . Uh , well all the things we have uh discussed , uh the energy , which uh turn out to be uh batteries , so that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . Well , okay , maybe you can add it later that we decided in the end because of the cost .
Project Manager: Yeah , because {disfmarker} yeah . Uh , he here it is still double-curve , the rubber , the flashy , the fruity , the removable .
Marketing: Single-curves . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh , the buttons
Industrial Designer: It's not double .
Project Manager: {disfmarker} Hmm ?
User Interface: A single-curved .
Industrial Designer: Uh , it's not double anymore , eh ?
Project Manager: Not double anymore .
Marketing: No , okay .
Project Manager: Nay but that {disfmarker} this is what um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , okay .
Marketing: Was initial , the plan . The initial plan .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: And the the added functions like Tetris snake , it's under the parental control , the touch-screen .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , it's uh just a summary of what uh we had discussed uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: On thing uh {disfmarker} One small thing uh , the added functions . Uh , was it included in the cost ? I don't think so , eh ?
User Interface: Ah , it's very cheap .
Project Manager: Uh , it's very cheap ,
Industrial Designer: It's very cheap . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you you maybe you you you you come at uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: No , it's it's not very cheap , but that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's very necessary .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: no , but it's a development inside corporation . Like , uh w we don't have to buy parental control . Our own people can make that , I think .
Project Manager: Yeah , but it still has some {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , it it has some cost , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah . Okay , but so we can discuss that uh
User Interface: He'll do it in his free time . So uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we can discuss that kind of things I think with the with the the board of uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Of directur or directors .
Project Manager: What's it what's the company called ? I just keep forgetting it .
Marketing: Real Reaction .
Project Manager: Real Real Reaction .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Real Reaction , yeah .
User Interface: You can ask your personal {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , so uh anybody uh misses something here about uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , the end conclusion .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay ,
User Interface: But uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: that's that's what I'm gonna write b between now .
Marketing: Okay . Still the end conclusion . That's all , I think .
Project Manager: But , i in here nothing uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um , the decision to make um the buttons on the top , and the menu on the
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yes .
User Interface: on the bottom . And clearly {disfmarker} Yeah , touch-screen you've mentioned .
Project Manager: Yeah , touch-screen I've mentioned .
Marketing: Yeah , but but the the decisions are put in the uh conclusion , I think .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Why we decided to use a flat uh L_C_D_ .
User Interface: Okay , this n yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay , well I gonna redesign uh something now . No .
Marketing: Yeah . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Party party {gap} .
Project Manager: Because I think it will {disfmarker} Oh , five minutes from {disfmarker} to finish meeting .
User Interface: Oh , before you change anything maybe you um save it first .
Marketing: Save it .
User Interface: You can't {disfmarker} {gap}
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: you can select file and export and then those J_ PEG files .
Marketing: Yeah , but then you had the same thing .
User Interface: Well , eight . And we have uh , {gap} another blank one .
Marketing: Example of children remote .
User Interface: Did we change anything ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh wait . Wait . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wow .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's a new uh {vocalsound} commercial logo .
Marketing: Hmm . That's a pity .
User Interface: Don't save it , aye ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh , that's cool , Tim . Finish meeting now .
User Interface: Uh ,
Project Manager: Well , I'm I'm
User Interface: why are only the first five SMARTboard files
Project Manager: I'm going to finish my end report .
User Interface: saved ?
Industrial Designer: Okay , um hereby is {disfmarker} the meeting is finished . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You declare . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I am the one who can say that . Yeah ? Hereby the meeting is finished . Yeah .
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Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Children, Young People and Education committee this morning. We've received apologies for absence from Siân Gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning. Can I ask if Members have got any declarations of interest they'd like to make, please? No? Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning, then, is a further session on our follow-up on our 'Mind over matter' report. I'm very pleased to welcome Carol Shillabeer, who is chief executive of Powys Teaching Health Board, and who manages the Together for Children and Young People programme. Thank you very much for attending, and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning, so if it's okay we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start and ask you if you're satisfied with the progress that's been made since the programme was established in 2015.
Carol Shillabeer: Thank you very much for that question, Chair. I've got to say 'yes', in many regards. So, the key focus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services. We developed the windscreen model—or we lifted the windscreen model. Other models that are very similar have been talked about as well, and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist CAMHS. It's some years ago now since this committee did the original report, and obviously Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and the Wales Audit Office had done reports in the past, and I think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action. You'll see in the written update that we covered quite a large number of areas, and so therefore had to make a prioritisation. The prioritisation was at the specialist CAMHS end. We have provided the committee with a red, amber or green rating of where we feel that we were, and that was just before submission of the evidence. Overall I would say we have made progress. I recognise you recognise that in your 'Mind over matter' report, and that is pleasing. What I would say, though, is that there's a still a lot to be done. Certainly over the last nine months or so, we've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work, which we're not actually leading now as a programme, although we facilitated the workshop held in September. But that's got a real momentum, and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work moving forward, and I'm sure we will come on to that in more detail. But we know there is more community workforce in specialist CAMHS, we know we're seeing children in a shorter time frame, and we know we're accepting more referrals, so our indicators are telling us we are making progress.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. And you referred to the work on the whole-school approach, which is very welcome, and I recognise that the programme has been involved in driving that as well. But I'm sure you'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people's mental health, and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance, then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme. Are there any particular areas where you feel you haven't made enough progress that you'd like to draw the committee's attention to?
Carol Shillabeer: This is maybe about what the programme's done, but really around the broader sense as well. I'm going to be very straight and say we should have made more progress on psychological therapies. I'm disappointed that we haven't. I'm assured that we've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the Matrics Cymru framework developed for children and young people. I've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee, who have owned this, and we're working together more on this area. That's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas haven't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models, but that is an area we should have made, I think, earlier progress on. There's been a general reflection from myself and the Together for Children and Young People programme board over the phase of the programme. I think we started very strongly; I think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle, if I'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel, and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months, and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist CAMHS into that whole-school approach. But, if I could just agree with your comments about the whole system, it has to be the whole system and that's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical. If I can just say, in case I don't get a chance to say this later, I was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday, because what is clear is for that part, the early help and enhanced support, this isn't just about the NHS and it's not just about education, it's about every part of the system, really, which does make it more complex. But I just wanted to say that I think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it's needed and yesterday was a positive step.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on early help and enhanced support from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Good morning. In terms of local primary mental health support services, what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people, and how much of this is due to an increase in demand?
Carol Shillabeer: Yes, thanks very much. So, it's important to say, I think, at the outset, just by way of reminder, that the target, quite rightly, changed for children and young people. The target changed some years ago for adults, so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children. So, the services were working, a couple of years ago, with significant demand and then a change in the standard. I think you're absolutely right; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children, particularly within the 28 days. I would say—. And we've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health Measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce, the staff, who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health, into a bit more of the secondary element, which is why the review being undertaken by the NHS delivery unit into primary care CAMHS is so critical, because, actually, if we don't have—and I believe we don't have—enough capacity in that part of the system, then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this. So, I think we will have seen, by the evidence submission, that demand has increased, not just in Wales but in the UK, and it has increased significantly. We are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so, we have more contacts, more staff, shorter access times, so that is a good news story. We've not got it completely sustained at this stage, and therefore the focus of the delivery unit's primary care CAMHS report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. I know, from my own experience as a constituency AM, I have families who tell me that they can't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's—. And I don't like to put it in resource terms, but it's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family, but, obviously, in terms of cost as well. Do you find that that's a common theme across Wales?
Carol Shillabeer: Yes. I think that the thrust of that is absolutely right. So, we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that's why this is a whole system, not compartmentalised. I think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist CAMHS, but can be supported, often by telephone, at that earlier stage. My sense of where we go next, in terms of, you know, you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle', as you referred to it in your report, is to make sure we've got a fully joined-up, multi-agency team approach to that. And I think that will need some resourcing to support that, yet to be fully determined. But yesterday's announcement about youth work, the Government's commitment to primary care, CAMHS, et cetera—that's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist CAMHS. And just a final note on that, if I may—at the beginning of the programme, we had a report from Hafal called 'Making Sense' and there were 10 key asks, if you like, of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service. They said, 'Please don't medicalise it'—I'm paraphrasing now, of course—'Please don't medicalise it; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then, when we really need help, please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level.' That's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme. So, that reflects the questions that you were asking, really.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. What are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support? And how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented? And also, given that the Together for Children and Young People programme comes to an end in October of this year, who, in your view, is best placed to forward this work stream, and what will be the biggest challenges? It's a bit of a long question, so, break it up however you like.
Carol Shillabeer: That's absolutely fine.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And what will be the biggest challenges that they will face?
Carol Shillabeer: Yes, I think that's helpfully laid out in three stages. So, you're absolutely right, there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support. It brought all of the agencies together, which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list, apparently, for places. So, there was a lot of demand and a lot of interest in this. In relation to the next steps, there is a planning group reflection in early July, in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop, and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage. One is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose. The second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area, and then, thirdly, to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps. So, that's the next stage of that. I'm pretty sure we'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards. There is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work. So, that will run alongside. But during the summer, then, we will be developing that framework approach, and we will be participating in the Association of Directors of Social Services conference in September, and then a follow-up workshop in October on this matter. On your question of 'Well, what happens after the programme?' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme. I'm pretty secure on the specialist CAMHS element. That will move, most likely, to the CAMHS network, which is part of the NHS mental health network. I actually chair the mental health network and that's one part of that. The whole-school approach element is already settled in Government and we've got a connection in to that. The question that's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go. I am currently in discussions with Welsh Government officials around that. I can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work. We cannot afford that we've come so far for this not now to proceed. I think there's a huge momentum behind this. I don't see there would be any obstacles—I hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach, as we move forward. So, I'm not in a position to say, 'And the legacy arrangements will be—', but I am in a position to say that I'm having those discussions with Welsh Government officials. They know my view that we've got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward, and I believe that they are supportive of that.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, I think those two questions have been touched on, the remaining questions. We are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements, but if I could just ask on psychological therapies: you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed with progress in this area, and the area hasn't been directly led on by the Together for Children and Young People programme. Do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area, because, you know, we've got different compartmentalising of actions, and this is absolutely key, isn't it, really?
Carol Shillabeer: Yes. I think there's—. There is some refinement to be done, I think, in making sure the connections are there. So, I think, as we move to programme end, we'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging, so to speak. I am confident—I mentioned the mental health network board that I chair—that we have those strands nailed down, but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the NHS. So, this will be an area that needs to be very much seen as a key part of that. My own sense is that—. There's been quite a lot of other developments through the life of the programme. So, in the evidence that I've provided, you'll see the First 1000 days, all the adverse childhood experiences work, the Cymru Well Wales partnership, et cetera, et cetera. So, there is a bit of what I would call tidying up of the landscape to be done, and this is the ideal opportunity to do that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now on specialist CAMHS—if I can just ask about the impact of the specialist CAMHS framework, and how effective you feel that has been in promoting a consistent delivery of care for young people.
Carol Shillabeer: Thanks very much for that. Without wanting to go back too far in history, I remember coming into this area back in 2014 as I was asked to establish a CAMHS network. My observation was there wasn't really a strong and well-connected clinical community in this area. When we spin forward five years, I can confidently say that there is a strong and well-connected clinical community around specialist CAMHS. The programme has helped; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour to understand, actually, there is a good case for consistency in the main, with local variation. There has been a case for much greater learning between organisations. If I just give you an example—you'll know that the community intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish. Some areas have them, but a lot of areas didn't. We do have inconsistency in that, but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way across Wales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes, which helps to prevent admissions and then, where there are admissions, helps to support people to be at home. They're all called slightly different things. So, I might have referred in my papers to CITT, CATT, COT and CITE. So, they've all got slightly different names and they've got slightly different opening hours. The key thrust of this is that there is a backbone, if you like, of a consistent approach with that local variation. We have to check. So, things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and the professionals to agree what that framework for improvement is. That then gets implemented, with some local variation. So, I think the process of moving in that way has been extremely helpful. There will be some variation. We want some variation, to some extent, as places try new things and evaluate new things. So, if I just refer to the previous question that I had, and I talked about hot clinics and different ways of reaching out; that's been tried in one area, been evaluated—let's see the spread of that. So, you'll know my view on internet counselling, for example; I feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in the specialist end. If that works in one area, why aren't we rolling that out to other areas? So, I think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together. It's in a stronger place—a much stronger place—than it was five years ago.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. You've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care, but are you able to assure the committee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service, especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming. Wherever you live in Wales, is that help there for you now?
Carol Shillabeer: Well, in your work to produce the 'Mind over matter' report, I clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police. We've taken that as a further piece of work under the specialist CAMHS umbrella, to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that. For example, is it that because the CIT, CAT, COT, CITE—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area, that actually it's after that that the network of support isn't as strong, and, if that is the case, what are we going to do about that? There's certainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults' and children's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours. So, we are taking an extra look at this, because I could not be 100 per cent confident that, throughout the 24-hour period, we've got this fully settled. I continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they've not got that solid place to go, and we're following those through.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Hefin David on neurodevelopmental services.
Hefin David AM: I think, Chair, I should have declared an interest here, as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly. We're seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals, and that will increase further in the future. Can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children?
Carol Shillabeer: Thank you. They're very big questions in terms of 'why'. I'm not sure that anyone really knows why, if I'm honest, although there is a lot of academic research going on. What we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through. So, in the information provided, I refer to the NHS digital prevalence report in England, which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two to four-year-olds have a mental disorder. Now, that sounds a bit shocking when we say that, but that's in the international classification scaling, and, of that, certainly, 2.5 per cent is around autism. I can just testify, in real life, that demand is absolutely growing. So, if I just take my own health board for a moment, we usually have about 75 referrals per year. Last year we had 300. So, that has felt very difficult to manage. If I can just give you a sense of what we've done so far and then what I think is next, I want to recognise the work of Dr Cath Norton and the steering group that's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme. They had a standing start. They've done a lot of very, very good work. We now have seven teams in place across Wales. We now have a national pathway. We now have a community-of-practice-type environment, and we're really getting into this. Good progress has been made. More people have been seen. More people have been assessed. So, we have made progress. But I've got a long list of considerations that I think respond to your question. One is that most referrals that come through, the clinicians tell me, are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support. So, that is often the reason why people come. Now, that is obviously going to be linked to the whole-school approach and how we can support that. Demand is outstripping supply. So, our clinical teams are concerned about how do they keep up. So, if I just take my own example of 300 in the last year, we're looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families, but also then to understand what the long-term trajectory is going to be. Because we've put these teams in, because we've got the new pathway, has that opened a gate and we've got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern?
Hefin David AM: Can I just ask a question there?
Carol Shillabeer: Yes.
Hefin David AM: So, with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that?
Carol Shillabeer: In a year, yes.
Hefin David AM: Did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected?
Carol Shillabeer: I think we anticipated a few more, and just to say that in my—
Hefin David AM: But not on that scale.
Carol Shillabeer: No, not on that scale. And in my own health board—I'm just referring to my own, and I'm happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place. So, it wasn't as if we had nothing in place previously. We had a NICE-compliant service already in place, but we knew we needed to expand that, which we have done, but we didn't anticipate 300. So, this is happening not just across Wales, actually, but across the UK—so, this greater recognition, the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route, which is really important. What I would also say, and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward, is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what I would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so, a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support. So, we've got a lot of people who are under that threshold, but that's a lot of people who still need help and support. I'm trying to very fairly and, I hope, appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme. We've got to tackle all of that. It's not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold, because there are needs elsewhere as well, and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support. Some of that overlaps with learning disability services. Can I just mention a few more things, as I'm on roll on neurodevelopmental?
Hefin David AM: It's up to the Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, go on.
Carol Shillabeer: Is that all right? Sorry, I know it's a very long answer. There is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private Member's Bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there's a real—. Having the broadest view would be advised by them, and I think they're particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call, say, a 'perfect world' would look like. That's the piece of work that we're wanting to do now. In terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements, about what the big, big things are, we are still needing to tackle.
Hefin David AM: I mean, I personally took a very personal decision when it came to the Member's Bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice I received. You need to look at the wider symptoms that are presented beyond autism and other neurological conditions. So, I'm glad you said that, because it gives me—. Because I didn't vote for that Bill, and I'm glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there. But what I do have concerns about is if the increase wasn't anticipated to the extent that it was and that the Together for Children and Young People programme has a duty to review capacity, after October who's going to make sure that that capacity's reviewed on a strategic basis?
Carol Shillabeer: So, I should have probably added in that we've got a piece of work under way at the moment—Welsh Government commissioned it—by a person called Patrick Holton, and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental. I think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term. We know that money's been put into this and it has had an important impact, but we now need to be planning for the next three, five, 10 and many years beyond that. There is the integrated autism service. I think there are some conversations, when I talk about the landscape being quite busy, about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue. So, it's not just about a childhood thing; as people move through, we've got to get much better at that long-term planning. So, that piece of work is really important. We will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfect-world picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that. It also connects to the early help and enhanced support, because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment don't meet a threshold for a certain category, that's a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. If we can just move on now to in-patient care, and if I can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of CAMHS in-patient care, particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in Abergele and Tŷ Llidiard.
Carol Shillabeer: Yes, thank you very much for that question. Again, quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around in-patients, and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units. I think, certainly, there is some recovery in the position in north Wales, and the programme did a peer review visit to north Wales, which I think was very helpful. In terms of where the programme has been on this issue, there is some work under way, at quite an advanced stage, around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services. This was quite a tricky thing to start off when you're in a position where, actually, there've been some restrictions, to then ask the service to think about going even further, but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce, get the right environment, et cetera, et cetera—so, that piece of work, the review of the specification about what could be possible. Clearly, we work very closely with Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee as the commissioner, so we don't commission that. We neither performance manage those environments. But, if I can just say, probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children. We believe there would probably be about 100 children who have experienced care in multiple settings. We haven't got that mature approach in terms of these being joined-up teams; we've got social care and we've got healthcare. There is a growing appetite to do something different. There is a meeting with the children's commissioner on 9 July to explore that. I've previously had conversations with the chief inspector of Care Inspectorate Wales, for example, and we have now got, I think, a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future. We also know that there've been some high-profile legal cases as well. So, we've got to move to that step now. It has been largely successful, the work that has taken place over recent years, but not without its key challenges.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. And, just briefly on the new specification that WHSSC are developing, that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours. How concerned should we be about that being a challenge, particularly in Abergele, where staffing has been a major issue?
Carol Shillabeer: Yes. I think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented. The peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment, where the unit is, the challenge across north Wales of the workforce. These are issues well known by the health board, by the way, so it wasn't a surprise to them. But that dialogue about how do we ensure that we've got the right workforce, because that unit, potentially, could—you know, it's an isolated unit, and they’ve been risk-managing. They've been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they've got available, and that's been entirely the right thing to do. But the downside of that is it's not as accessible as we would want.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin David has got some questions on workforce now.
Hefin David AM: Yes. With regard to the increased CAMHS posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in CAMHS posts—we know that there's likely to be labour market demand, high labour market demand, in those instances, so are the vacancy rates higher in Wales than elsewhere, given the increase in those posts to be filled?
Carol Shillabeer: So, you're absolutely right. There's been quite a lot of investment, and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service. We had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing Peter to pay Paul, to be quite frank. So, as new services were being developed, people would move from one part of the system to the other. So, in the early days there was little net gain. That has improved slightly, but we're in a national context, particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine, of a national shortage, so this is not a quick fix. We are starting to see a greater diversity of workforce. So, if I can mention psychology assistants, for example, my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team, rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based. We see some of that through the NHS benchmarking, particularly with England. They have more of that. We're perhaps a little bit—
Hefin David AM: More of what?
Carol Shillabeer: They have more skill mix in their workforce. We're catching up a bit more on that now.
Hefin David AM: Just to clarify there, what you're referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the Wales system and more psychological staff, experts, in the UK picture. Is that—?
Carol Shillabeer: In the England picture. So, England had a programme called IAPT, which is about psychological therapies, and had therefore looked at the skill mix. Some of that was—. We've chatted to colleagues in England, trying to learn—we're all trying to make improvements in this area, of course; it's a UK and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach. Because of their vacancies they had to skill mix, and because of the money that they had available—they didn't have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we've been able to secure. So, they skill mixed much earlier; we're skill mixing now. We're using different types of roles, for example. And if I can just make a plea, really, around recognising the input of the third sector—so, it doesn't always have to be an NHS-employed person to work in service provision, direct front-line service provision, and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services. And that is one that we will need to cultivate, because, to be quite frank, our recruitment challenges won't be solved overnight. We've recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times, but, with the training time, it's not a quick fix.
Hefin David AM: Does the workforce profile remain different, or are they starting to—?
Carol Shillabeer: They're starting to come together. There is a—graph 13 in terms of the CAMHS profile. Each year we do the NHS benchmarking, and we can see where we are compared to others, and I would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing.
Hefin David AM: So, if you compare a child in Wales with a child in England in the last two years who's been through this, would they have had a different experience as a result, and different clinical advice as a result, or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile?
Carol Shillabeer: That's quite a big question. Hand on heart, could I tell you I absolutely know the detail of that? No, I couldn't. The practice in this area is guided by National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidance, so it's pretty much guided. We would expect all of our practitioners to be able to work to NICE guidance. When you skill mix a team, you enable the right referrals to go to the right person, so you wouldn't necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well, you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs. So, it does—. And we've seen some of that; if I just make reference to the panel approach in Gwent that's been developed, a multi-agency panel come together, a referral comes in, it's then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented. So, we can be much more flexible in relation to that, and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person, because, if we've got a resource that is highly specialist, we want them to be dealing with those children and young people.
Hefin David AM: And one of the things you're able to do—because there's a lot about the labour market you can't control, but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development. You've mentioned communities of practice. What other things are being done in addition, and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question, but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you?
Carol Shillabeer: Thank you for that. So, there's a couple of things around—. I think there's a huge focus on staff retention now, not just in Wales but across the UK. So, we've got recruitment but we've got retention. What are the factors that affect retention? Actually, well-being, well-being at work—and you'll know that within 'A Healthier Wales' the focus on staff engagement, staff well-being, has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services, and, then, as you rightly say, training and development and career opportunities. So, the developments over the last few years have brought training opportunities and career development opportunities as well. I think the community of practice—it's something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit, doing collective reflection on service improvement, and being very clear about learning from one another. And, if you're a clinician, that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward. So, I think we have the fundamental building blocks in place, but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate.
Hefin David AM: What about the Welsh language in the health board?
Carol Shillabeer: Thank you very much. There are two elements, if I may, just on that. In your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the Welsh language, and have we got enough Welsh language practitioners where we need them. We are doing that piece of work. I'm pleased to say that, over the last few years, I think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of Welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their Welsh-speaking communities are. We're particularly looking at it in terms of in-patient CAMHS and community intensive services, because, particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable, they would choose the language they wish to choose. So, we know we need to respond to that. So, we will be in a position to, by the end of this programme, provide that position statement on what happens next. I would also say, of course, we've got the Welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment, and we've got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards. So, that element is very high on the priority list.
Hefin David AM: Okay.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Suzy Davies has a question about looked-after children.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes. Thank you, Chair. Obviously, everything you've been speaking about already, particularly about workforce development, applies to children in care as well, where there's other work also going on in terms of support. Can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects, then, with the outcomes for the children in care work programme?
Carol Shillabeer: Thanks very much for that. So, we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group, which is good. So, we've got that cross-link. We also have a director of social services on our programme board and, obviously, they're very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children. I just made reference to, under the question on specialist CAMHS in-patients, the need to bring those services together, and that, really, is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the Together for Children and Young People programme and the constituent parts. So, I'm confident that that has been pegged now. We've got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that.
Suzy Davies AM: Can you just perhaps give us an example of how that then looks on the ground? Because it's great that people are talking together, but how would that affect, I don't know, individual members of the workforce, or, indeed, the children we're talking about?
Carol Shillabeer: Yes. So, if I just give an example of a unit in south Wales that is a social care unit, we've been having discussions about, 'Well, actually, shouldn't you have a psychologist and good access to psychological therapies, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?' So, we haven't yet got an agreed position on how we're going to do this, but the position is that something needs to be done, and there is an appetite for and an understanding of the case for change, I believe. But what it will mean, I think, in practice, is that you get much more fluid roles moving across sectors, or we could be designing services that are fully integrated. Now, there may be challenges in that, but, you know, let's get them out on the table. So, in terms of this seamless health and social care system for Wales, this is one of the tests of that, I would say: can we, within the next five years, 10 years, really bring that together? That will take quite a lot of work and commitment. On the looked-after children specifically, we have picked that up, particularly following your previous report, looking specifically at the assessment of young people who are care experienced who are in the system. Absolutely, part of the health assessment is emotional health and mental health. We are questioning whether that needs to be a greater part and what the level of support needs to be, particularly because of the backgrounds of children that have led them to be in those circumstances. That's a core piece of work under the early help and enhanced support work stream, and we'll be ensuring that that is complete by the end of the programme.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And you're confident that that will reach children who are being fostered and perhaps don't have very frequent looked-after children reviews, because, from all other perspectives, things are going fairly well.
Carol Shillabeer: Yes. And, of course, there's the edge-of-care work that the Government have been supporting, and, certainly in my own area, under the regional partnership board, we have a Start Well programme, which is the old Children and Young People's Partnership programme, where there's a significant investment in supporting children and young people, families, on the edge of care, which does pick up fostering.
Suzy Davies AM: Ah, lovely. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn has a question on transition.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes. Thank you, Chair. We've heard, not necessarily just in the context of this report, because we've heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention, and I've in fact only recently—well, just this week, actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency, and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services. Now, I know we had the—. The transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now, and the programme was involved in developing that guidance. But what's your assessment of the impact that it's had? Because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps, aren't we?
Carol Shillabeer: Yes, thank you for that. You're absolutely right; we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that. And, in particular, I know that the children's commissioner is very focused on transition, not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support, but children in paediatric wards, and there is a working group with Welsh Government looking at this. The children's commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say, 'Well, if this works, this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere'. But the big question there is 'if'. So, we do want to get evaluation. If I were just to give an estimate of where I think this will land, I think it will have made improvements, but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing, supporting, auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance. So, I talked about community practice and clinical audit: is this something that we make, then, a mandatory audit, each year, that we do that double check? Because it's one of those things where we know when a child is 14, 15, 16, 17, so what's stopping us? If indeed the evaluation says it's not happening everywhere, it's not happening early enough, what is stopping us? We really need to get underneath that. So, my sense will be it will show us, it will be better, but there's some further work to do, and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we've got a systematic approach to dealing with those who haven't had the guidance fully implemented, because it can make a real difference.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, and it seems to me—you've just talked about having a systematic approach, and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process, isn't it? So, it shouldn't be difficult. I know we're talking about in the health service things shouldn't be difficult and they are, and one of the gripes—I had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new IT systems and so on—let's not go there at the moment. But, really, this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services. It shouldn't be difficult. It's really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult.
Carol Shillabeer: Can I add one other dimension in, which I think is going to be quite interesting? We talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it's not just in mental health, but it's elsewhere—then you start to think, 'What if we could reduce transitions?', so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better. We are doing a piece of work with Government on the potential to explore what a 0-25-type service would be. We know that in different places they have approached that—in Australia and places in the UK. There are probably some pros and cons, but should we be moving to a 0-25. That is moving the transition at the age of 25, but at least it's not at the eighteenth birthday. What's the argument around what adolescent, young people and young adults services are, for example? That piece of research and understanding—
Dawn Bowden AM: You could probably have a gradual transition, then, couldn't you?
Carol Shillabeer: Quite potentially. I've got some people who have joined my own health board who've worked in that 0-25-type service, and we're catching up—'Tell me what was good about it? Tell me what was not so good about it? What did the young people themselves think about that?'. Because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions, there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right, then.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got some really important questions now about legacy, because throughout the session this morning you've referred to ongoing work, really, and that is a major concern for the committee. Suzy Davies.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, thank you, Chair, we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work's not been completed. Obviously, we've got the Welsh Government's strategy for mental health running until 2022, which is a few years longer. Can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue, perhaps even if it's just for the same length of time as Together for Mental Health, or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system?
Carol Shillabeer: Thank you for that. Can I just say, I've given this so much thought over the time, because I think you might have asked me this question when I came previously? There are two ways to look at this. I'm absolutely sure that the issue of children's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time. We have made a lot of progress, I think, as a society, in talking about this now. We talk about mental health so much more than we ever used to. When I was a child, we never talked about it. I talk to my own children and say, 'What's going on in your lives at school?', and they talk about this. This is not an issue, if you like, that I believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years. This is one for the long term for us. So, on the one hand, I think my view last year was that, when you have a programme of work, you should have a start, a middle and end, really—otherwise it's not a programme of work, it's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism. So, my position last year was, 'This will have been running for five years—we've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist CAMHS, we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this' et cetera. My position now is I want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work, if this programme is going to close.
Suzy Davies AM: Are you sure?
Carol Shillabeer: Not yet. So, I think, in an earlier question I indicated dialogue going on between myself and Welsh Government officials. I don't think there's a barrier—people aren't saying, 'No, it all needs to just stop; we've solved the issue', but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements, particularly for early help and enhanced support, are not yet fully determined, or for neurodevelopmental. If it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme, I would be supporting continuing the programme. I don't think we can stop now.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, I don't think any of us would disagree with that, but I suppose there might be a level of concern that the Welsh Government's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards. You mentioned that you've done that work in Gwent, down in the south-east of your patch there. It's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of Wales. I know you've got your experience in Gwent, but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere, if that's the route that Government decides to pursue?
Carol Shillabeer: Yes. I think the key question in my own mind is: are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward? I'm the chair of the Powys regional partnership board, so I should declare that. There's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment—
Suzy Davies AM: Well, we'll be asking them to go with the 'Mind over matter' report, to make sure that that's delivered upon.
Carol Shillabeer: There's a lot, you know, 'A Healthier Wales'—. Everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working, so there is quite a high expectation. My understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different RPBs are in different places. So, some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships, and perhaps where they have been retained, they may be in a more progressed position. Some are looking to have to re-establish those. So, my sense of this is that, I think, possibly the RPBs aren't yet in that position to be ready. Our piece of work on early help and enhanced support, in terms of your earlier question about what's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work, alongside the RPB development work, to get that ready, before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over.
Suzy Davies AM: You may not feel able to say it, then, but would be wrong in saying that, actually, it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme, just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction?
Carol Shillabeer: I'm happy to respond to it. My sense is that, whether it's the programme or whether it's something else, something needs to be there. The next stage is really multi-agency, so it may well be that the programme currently has been NHS-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere, maybe not. I think there's a view that this needs to continue. I'm less wedded to it having to be the Together for Children and Young People programme. It may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it's already established, we've got a programme team et cetera, so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution. I'm not wedded to that. What I feel strongly about is that we've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward.
Suzy Davies AM: Can I just push you on one thing there? You mentioned, perhaps, the NHS could lead on the work, for example. Is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking—? I'm just thinking—I mean, we've got the elements here: we've got the NHS, there's the whole-school approach, early help and enhanced support and intervention, as you mentioned earlier. If that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach, is there a risk that they might become too dominant, inadvertently—?
Carol Shillabeer: If I can just clarify—apologies if I wasn't clear. I said the current programme has been NHS-led, and that might be a reason to change.
Suzy Davies AM: To mix it up a bit. Oh, right, okay. Anything else you want me to pursue on that—?
Lynne Neagle AM: Can I just clarify for the record, Carol—because we put this to the Minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from October 2019? Are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point?
Carol Shillabeer: I'm saying that on a more, if you like it, uniformed and informal basis, we're doing some work with the children's commissioner now in terms of—. I know the children's commissioner's very interested in how RPBs are managing, developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people's concerns. We're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the RPBs. What I would say is that there has been some preparatory work by Government around supporting RPBs. So, for example, in the integrated care fund guidance last year, there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health, which I welcomed. I've also welcomed, literally last week, a letter to all RPB chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per RPB to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element. So, all of these things are in the right direction. My sense, and I need to stress it's a sense because we haven't done that piece of work, is different RPBs are in different places. So, how confident can we be at the October date that we could hand over? My sense is, just to safeguard, having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable, and that's what I'm talking to officials about.
Lynne Neagle AM: And that would either be an extension of the Together for Children and Young People programme or something else. Okay, thank you.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. Because I think there is a question, isn't there, about whether the RPBs will make this enough of a priority? I'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have. Just a final question from me: how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme? Are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they're getting help? How's the stakeholder group feeding into this?
Carol Shillabeer: I've not been blown over in the rush of people saying, 'Don't go anywhere.' [Laughter.] It's a really important matter for young people. I know that later on you're meeting with the Youth Parliament, you're having a joint session, which is fantastic. We've had contact with the Youth Parliament because we know it's one of their top three issues. So, it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people, I think. Whether they have a specific view on the programme, I don't know. I've not heard that. But I'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying, 'We have to have these developments continue.' It is a major issue, we're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there's still a lot to do—and I think we'll need to be able to respond to that.
Suzy Davies AM: Anything particularly you want in addition to that?
Lynne Neagle AM: No, I think that's fine. And if I can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through. It was very, very important and very welcome.
Suzy Davies AM: Carol, thank you for that. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. we have come to the end of our time. We had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you. We might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we haven't covered, but can I thank you for your attendance this morning? As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much for your time.
Carol Shillabeer: Thank you, all.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Welsh Youth Parliament—invitation to engagement events. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Education clarifying some issues around the Welsh network of healthy schools scheme, following the task and finish group. Paper to note 3: letter from the Minister for Education on the implementation of the Diamond reforms, and that's ahead of our session on 4 July. Papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children's commissioner and the Minister for Education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education. And then paper to note 6, paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children, to the First Minister, Children's Commissioner for Wales and the Association of Directors of Social Services. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you very much. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay.
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Project Manager: Okay Right {vocalsound} Um well this is the kick-off meeting for our our project . Um {vocalsound} and um this is just what we're gonna be doing over the next twenty five minutes . Um so first of all , just to kind of make sure that we all know each other ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: I'm Laura and I'm the project manager . {vocalsound} Do you want to introduce yourself again ?
Marketing: Great .
Industrial Designer: Hi , I'm David and I'm supposed to be an industrial designer .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: And I'm Andrew and I'm uh our marketing
User Interface: Um I'm Craig and I'm User Interface .
Marketing: expert .
Project Manager: Great . Okay . {vocalsound} Um so we're designing a new remote control and um {disfmarker} Oh I have to record who's here actually . So that's David , Andrew and Craig , isn't it ? And you all arrived on time . Um yeah so des uh {vocalsound} design a new remote control . Um , as you can see it's supposed to be original , trendy and user friendly . Um so that's kind of our our brief , as it were . Um and so there are three different stages to the design . Um I'm not really sure what what you guys have already received um in your emails . What did you get ?
Industrial Designer: Um , I just got the project announcement about what the project is {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Designing a remote control .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: That's about it , didn't get anything else .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah , that's that's it .
Project Manager: Is that what everybody got ?
Industrial Designer: Did you get the same thing ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um . So we're gonna have like individual work and then a meeting about it . And repeat that process three times . Um and at this point we get try out the whiteboard over there . Um . {vocalsound} So uh you get to draw your favourite animal and sum up your favourite characteristics of it . So who would like to go first ?
Marketing: I will go . That's fine .
Project Manager: Very good . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Alright . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} This one here , right ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay . Very nice . Alright . My favourite animal is like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} A beagle .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um charac favourite characteristics of it ? Is that right ?
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Uh , right , well basically um high priority for any animal for me is that they be willing to take a lot of physical affection from their family . And , yeah that they have lots of personality and uh be fit and in robust good health .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So this is blue . Blue beagle . My family's beagle .
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Lovely . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} Well , my favourite animal would be a monkey .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Then they're small cute and furry , and uh when planet of the apes becomes real , {vocalsound} I'm gonna be up there with them .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Cool .
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: There's too much gear . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You can take as long over this as you like , because we haven't got an awful lot to discuss .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ok oh we do we do
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Don't feel like you're in a rush , anyway .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: I coulda told you a whole lot more about beagles .
Project Manager: Ach {gap} why not {disfmarker}
Marketing: Boy , let me tell you . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We might have to get you up again then .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't know what mine is . I'm gonna have to think on the spot now .
Marketing: Impressionist .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Can't draw . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um .
Project Manager: Is that a whale ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Um , well anyway , I don't know , it's just the first animal I can think off the top of my head . Um . Yes . Big reason is 'cause I'm allergic to most animals . Allergic to animal fur ,
Project Manager: Ah .
Industrial Designer: so um fish was a natural choice . Um , yeah , and I kind of like whales . They come in and go {vocalsound} eat everything in sight . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And they're quite harmless and mild and interesting .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright . Mm .
Project Manager: Okay . God , I still don't know what I'm gonna write about . Um .
Marketing: Superb sketch , by the way .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Tail's a bit big , I think . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I was gonna choose a dog as well .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But I'll just draw a different kind of dog .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: M my favourite animal is my own dog at home . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} That doesn't really look like him , actually . He looks more like a pig , actually . Ah well .
Marketing: I see a dog in there .
Project Manager: Do you ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh that's very good of you .
Marketing: Yep . {vocalsound} Now I see a rooster .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh .
Marketing: What kind is it ?
Project Manager: Um he's a mixture of uh various things . Um and what do I like about him , um {disfmarker} That's just to suggest that his tail wags .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um he's very friendly and cheery and always pleased to see you , and very kind of affectionate and um {vocalsound} uh and he's quite quite wee as well so you know he can {disfmarker} doesn't take up too much space .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um and uh {disfmarker} And he does a funny thing where he chases his tail as well ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: which is quite amusing , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Is he aware that th it's his own cha tail he's chasing ?
Project Manager: It is . I think it is . He only does it after he's had his dinner
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and um he'll just all of a sudden just get up and start chasing his tail 'round the living room .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's an after dinner dog then .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah , so uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Probably when he was little he got lots of attention for doing it and has forever been conditioned .
Project Manager: Yeah , maybe . Maybe . {vocalsound} Right , um where did you find this ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Just down here ? Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Um what are we doing next ? Uh um . Okay , uh we now need to discuss the project finance . Um so according to the brief um we're gonna be selling this remote control for twenty five Euro , um and we're aiming to make fifty million Euro . Um so we're gonna be selling this on an international scale . And uh we don't want it to cost any more than uh twelve fifty Euros , so fifty percent of the selling price .
Marketing: 'Kay . Um , can we just go over that again ?
Project Manager: Sure .
Marketing: Uh , so bas at twel Alright , yeah . Okay . So cost {disfmarker} like production cost is twelve fifty ,
Project Manager: All together .
Marketing: but selling price is {disfmarker} is that wholesale or retail ? Like on the shelf .
Project Manager: Um I dunno . I imagine {disfmarker} That's a good question .
Marketing: Our sale our sale anyway .
Project Manager: I imagine it probably is our sale actually
Marketing: Yeah , okay okay .
Project Manager: because it's probably up to the the um the retailer to uh sell it for whatever price they want . Um .
Marketing: Okay . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: But I {disfmarker} I don't know ,
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: I mean do you think the fact that it's going to be sold internationally will have a bearing on how we design it at all ?
Marketing: Yes . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Think it will ? Um .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Hmm .
Marketing: Well right away I'm wondering if there's um th th uh , like with D_V_D_ players , if there are zones .
Project Manager: Oh yeah , regions and stuff , yeah .
Marketing: Um f frequencies or something
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay .
Marketing: um as well as uh characters , um different uh keypad styles and s symbols .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah . Well for a remote control , do you think that will be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um .
Project Manager: I suppose it's depends on how complicated our remote control is .
Marketing: I don't know . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It does make sense from maybe the design point of view 'cause you have more complicated characters like European languages , then you need more buttons .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So , possibly .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: And then a and then al the other thing international is on top of the price . I'm thinking the price might might appeal to a certain market in one region , whereas in another it'll be different , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What , just like in terms of like the wealth of the country ?
Marketing: Just a chara just a characteristic of the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Like how much money people have to spend on things like ?
Marketing: Just {disfmarker} Or just like , basic product podi positioning , the twenty five Euro remote control might be a big hit in London , might not be such a big hit in Greece , who knows ,
Project Manager: Aye , I see what you mean , yeah .
Marketing: something like that , yeah .
Project Manager: Marketing . Good marketing thoughts .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yep .
Project Manager: Oh gosh , I should be writing all this down . Um .
Marketing: Right away I'm making some kind of assumptions about what what information we're given here ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: thinking , 'kay trendy probably means something other than just basic ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: something other than just standard . Um so I'm wondering right away , is selling twenty five Euros , is that sort of the {disfmarker} thi is this gonna to be like the premium product kinda thing or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah . Like how much does , you know , a remote control cost .
Marketing: Uh-huh .
Project Manager: Well twenty five Euro , I mean that's um that's about like eighteen pounds or something , isn't it ? Or no , is it as much as that ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Sixteen seventeen eighteen pounds .
Marketing: Yep . Yeah , I'd say so , yeah .
Project Manager: Um , I dunno , I've never bought a remote control , so I don't know how how good a remote control that would get you . Um .
Marketing: No . Yeah , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But yeah , I suppose it has to look kind of cool and gimmicky .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um right , okay . Let me just scoot on ahead here . Okay . Um well d Does anybody have anything to add to uh to the finance issue at all ? Thin
Marketing: Do we have any other background information on like how that compares to other
Project Manager: No , actually . That would be useful , though ,
Marketing: other {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: wouldn't it , if you knew like what your money would get you now .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah , interesting thing about discussing um production of a remote control for me is that l as you point out , I just don't think of remote controls as somethin something people consciously assess in their purchasing habits .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: It's just like getting shoelaces with shoes or something .
Project Manager: Oh . Five minutes to end of meeting .
Marketing: It just comes along .
Project Manager: Oh , okay . We're a bit behind .
Marketing: Do you know what I mean ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Like so sort of like how do you I I mean one one way of looking at it would be , well the people producing television sets , maybe they have to buy remote controls . Or another way is maybe people who have T_V_ sets are really fed up with their remote control and they really want a better one or something .
User Interface: I know um {disfmarker} My parents went out and bought um remote controls because um they got fed up of having four or five different remote controls for each things the house .
Marketing: But {disfmarker} Right . Right .
User Interface: So um for them it was just how many devices control .
Marketing: Okay so {disfmarker} Right , so in function one of the priorities might be to combine as many uses {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Right , so do you think that should be like a main design aim of our remote control d you know ,
Marketing: I think so .
Project Manager: do your your satellite and your regular telly and your V_C_R_ and everything ?
Marketing: Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Well like um , maybe what we could use is a sort of like a example of a successful other piece technology is palm palm pilots . They're gone from being just like little sort of scribble boards to cameras , M_P_ three players , telephones ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: everything , agenda . So , like , I wonder if we might add something new to the to the remote control market ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: such as the lighting in your house , or um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Or even like , you know , notes about um what you wanna watch . Like you might put in there oh I want to watch such and such and look a
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Oh that's a good idea . So extra functionalities .
Marketing: An Yeah . Like , p personally for me , at home I've I've combined the um the audio video of my television set and my D_V_D_ player and my C_D_ player . So they w all work actually function together but I have different remote controls for each of them .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So it's sort of ironic that that then they're in there um you know , the sound and everything it's just one system .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: But each one's got its own little part .
Project Manager: Um okay , uh I'd wel we're gonna have to wrap up pretty quickly in the next couple of minutes . Um I'll just check we've nothing else . Okay . Um so anything else anybody wants to add about what they don't like about remote controls they've used , what they would really like to be part of this new one at all ?
Industrial Designer: And you keep losing them .
Project Manager: You keep losing them .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Finding them is really a pain , you know .
Marketing: Mm . Mm .
Industrial Designer: I mean it's usually quite small , or when you want it right , it slipped behind the couch
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: or it's kicked under the table .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: W You get those ones where you can , if you like , whistle or make a really high pitched noise they beep .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You know .
Marketing: That's just really good id Yep .
Project Manager: There {disfmarker} I mean is that something we'd want to include , do you think ?
Marketing: Uh , {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Dunno .
Marketing: sure . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay maybe . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I remember when the first remote control my my family had was on a cable . Actually had a cable between it and the T_V_
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and big like buttons that sort of like , like on a blender or something .
Project Manager: My goodness .
Marketing: And um , you know , when I think about what they are now , it's better , but actually it's still kind of , I dunno , like a massive junky thing on the table .
Project Manager: Still feels quite primitive .
Marketing: Maybe we could think about how , could be more , you know , streamlined . S
Project Manager: Maybe like a touch screen or something ?
Marketing: Something like that , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Or whatever would be technologically reasonable .
Project Manager: Uh-huh , okay . Well I guess that's up to our industrial designer .
Marketing: 'Cause it could b it could it could be that f it could be that functionally that doesn't make it any better , but that just the appeal of of not having {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It looks better .
Marketing: You know , these days there's a r pe things in people's homes are becoming more and more like chic , you know .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Um , nicer materials
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: and might be
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: be worth exploring anyway .
User Interface: Uh .
Project Manager: Right , well um so just to wrap up the next meeting's gonna be in thirty minutes . So that's about um about ten to twelve by my watch . Um so inbetween now and then , um as the industrial designer , you're gonna be working on you know the actual working design of it
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: so y you know what you're doing there . Um for user interface , technical functions , I guess that's you know like what we've been talking about , what it'll actually do . Um and uh marketing executive , you'll be just thinking about what it actually {disfmarker} what , you know , what requirements it has to has to fulfil and you'll all get instructions emailed to you , I guess .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Um .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , so it's th the functional design stage is next , I guess . {vocalsound} And uh and that's the end of the meeting . So I got that little message a lot sooner than I thought I would , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Before we wrap up , just to make sure we're all on the same page here ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: um , do we {disfmarker} We were given sort of an example of a coffee machine or something ,
Project Manager: Uh-huh , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: right ? Well , um are we at ma right now on the assumption that our television remote control may have features which go beyond the television ? Or are we keeping sort of like a a design commitment to television features ?
Project Manager: Th Okay , well just very quickly
Marketing: I I don't know .
Project Manager: 'cause this {disfmarker} we're supposed to finish now . Um I guess that's up to us ,
Marketing: Yep . Yeah , sure .
Project Manager: I mean you probably want some kind of unique selling point of it , so um , you know {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I think one factor would be production cost .
Marketing: Okay , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Because there's a cap there ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so um depends on how much you can cram into that price . Um .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I think that that's the main factor .
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Right , okay , we'll that's that's the end of the meeting , then . Um
Marketing: Alright . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , uh
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: thank you all for coming . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Cool .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
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Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2 this morning is our scrutiny session on Estyn's annual report 2018-19. I'm very pleased to welcome Meilyr Rowlands, Her Majesty's Chief Inspector, Estyn; Jassa Scott, strategic director at Estyn; and Claire Morgan, strategic director at Estyn. Thank you all for attending. We're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. We'll go straight into questions from Suzy Davies.
Suzy Davies AM: Bore da. Good morning, everybody. Thank you for the papers upfront, in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system, looking forward, of course is the curriculum and the change that that's bringing. How can we be sure that, during this period of change, standards don't slip? And also, from the point of view of scrutiny, will we be back in a situation where we're being told, 'You can't compare one set of results against the previous year's results, because of the nature of the change'?
Meilyr Rowlands: Bore da, bawb. Thank you for the invitation to come here. I think that's a good question. I think any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it, particularly if those changes were made too quickly. I think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now, so I think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping. We've seen small incremental improvements. So, overall, I think we can be fairly confident that standards won't slip during this period of preparation.
Suzy Davies AM: Can I just ask: is that based on your evidence around primary schools, where the sort of ethos that we've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase?
Meilyr Rowlands: The track record I'm talking about is across the board, so it's very difficult to think of anything that's actually got worse over the last three or four years, so it's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping. It might not be improving as quickly as we would like, but the purpose of major curriculum and, more generally, educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement. I think we should congratulate the profession for the work they've been doing. A large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work, as well as doing the day job. I think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform, and engagement with wider education reform, is to be congratulated. So, I think going forward, we must make sure that that is continued; that this process that's called co-construction—engaging with the profession, making sure that they're behind all the changes—continues. I think that's what's going to make sure that we don't see any slippage.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, and on that point of comparing year on year, we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then?
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work, yes.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. That's great, thank you. Can I just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools, which I've just mentioned previously, and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well? Because we're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds, sometimes that's because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up, but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that, overall, secondary schools are in deficit. Is there a correlation between those two positions, that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum. I think that's why we welcomed the phasing in of the new curriculum. With any sort of education reform, you've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand, and on the other hand you need time to pilot things, to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth. So, we've got to get that balance right.
Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, that could be difficult to do if a school doesn't have money to create that space, couldn't it?
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. You raised two issues, I think. One, about the difference between primary and secondary: I think what I'm saying there is I think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary, but it's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference. In terms of funding, probably everyone in this room, and certainly me included, would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that. But, you know, that is a decision for local and central Government to decide how much they can afford. I think there is an argument for saying that the funding has become more challenging for schools over time.
Suzy Davies AM: Can I ask, just to keep it on track, are you finding that that's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum?
Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think you can make that straightforward correlation. But if you do look at surpluses and reserves, they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time, but they have declined for secondary schools. So, I think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because, overall, they're in deficit now. So, I think there is an argument for looking at that. The other thing that's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage. So, you know, if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant, it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school. But also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they're looking at these financial and staffing issues.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Siân might develop that a little bit further on. The final question from me is: there's a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment, particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well. How do you think we can improve that? What impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this?
Meilyr Rowlands: Obviously, the most important resource for the education system is the teachers. So, it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit. And we're not seeing them hit, if I remember correctly, even in primary, let alone secondary. So, there is a challenge, and I think we've got to look at this in the round. We've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this. So, long term, we've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into. So, that is partly to do with workload and staff well-being. I think there's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda, that people need to take that seriously, and there's work going on regarding the workload issue.
Suzy Davies AM: I suppose what I'm coming to, and I will finish with this, Chair, is, we're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they've barely got time for lunch as it is. Do you think that's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this, albeit that there'll be a phasing in?
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think it will have an effect, but I think it'll have a positive effect. I think the new curriculum, one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession. It gives back agency and ownership to teachers. I think it's really important. And one of the reasons why teaching maybe hasn't been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum, and now they've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach. So, I think that is a very important part of attracting intelligent people into the profession. There are short-term things we need to do, of course, as well. I think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching, so I welcome some of the part-time Open University courses, for example. So, there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary, particularly in Welsh-medium, where there's a shortage. So, all those kinds of varied routes, I think, into teaching, are important as well.
Suzy Davies AM: Degree apprenticeships, potentially.
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, I think it's well worth exploring that. Yes.
Suzy Davies AM: Lovely. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Siân Gwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern. Siân.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes. Just before going on to that, just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training. Has Estyn done any themed work on that particular issue, or do you intend to do anything on that? Also, looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in England, for example; do we need, perhaps, to think about financial incentives, not just for specific subjects, but for going to schools where there are particular issues, perhaps?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, yes, there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the Government about working in those early years for teachers. It's possible that we will be undertaking work in the near future on that. I know that Professor Mick Waters is looking at this currently, and we've had the discussion with him. And I think we would welcome the opportunity to look at this particular period. Now, we are, of course, looking at initial teacher training, but we haven't looked at the first couple of years for many a year.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Right, thank you very much. And for your information, I've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue, and that work will be published in due course. So, I hope to have a discussion with you about that.
Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you very much. Yes.
Sian Gwenllian AM: In terms of the secondary schools, that’s where the problem lies, isn’t it, rather than the primary sector. How much of a concern is it to you that children’s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50, and that, indeed, over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under Estyn review? How much of a concern is that to you?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, it is of concern to us, of course. I hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in Wales, because there are a number of good things we can report also. The primary sector, the special sector, post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well, and I think a story that's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving. We have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year, and we've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools, which is also a sector—. Because these are two sectors where there are very, very vulnerable children in attendance. So, I think that's very encouraging. But, you're right, of course, the biggest concern for the system, I would say, is secondary schools, and that is an issue of leadership, and also of the quality of the teaching and learning. Those are the recommendations that we make most often in our inspection reports. So, I believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution, as I mentioned previously, and also a short-term solution to this problem. In the long term, to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well, that’s the main aim of the new curriculum. So, I am confident that that strategy is the right strategy. It will take time, as we mentioned previously; it will take longer in secondary schools, and that's for a number of reasons, and I have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports. So, there are many reasons why secondary schools find it more difficult, possibly, than primary schools. The children themselves are older and they have greater challenges. Life is more complicated for them, possibly. It’s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children, and that’s an important factor. That’s one of the reasons why I believe it’s important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school’s life and take an interest in the education of their children. We also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools’ mindsets, and, in some cases, perhaps excessively so. So, we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum, and, of course, Qualifications Wales is carrying out that work currently. And also, we need to change the measures that we use to measure the schools’ successes. Now, there is work ongoing on that as well. But there are all kinds of variations and differences between the primary and secondary sectors. In primary schools, for example, the greatest and most obvious difference, I would say, is that you’ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year, and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time, getting to know the child and, possibly, the family very well. It’s much more complicated for secondary school to do that; there have to be systems put in place for that. So, there are many long-term things that we need to respond to. But in the short term, what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support, and that is why I am glad and do welcome what's being piloted currently, which is a system of supporting these schools, the multi-agency approach, that is. So, that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago. So, I'm very glad that we are doing this in secondary schools throughout Wales. I believe there are about 12 schools that are in that pilot scheme.
Sian Gwenllian AM: You said previously that it's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough. Are there signs that that's improving?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, one of the things that's very positive about this pilot scheme is that it's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme, that is, the schools that we have identified, through inspections, as needing to be put in a statutory category. So, there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern. I believe that it's fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet. I think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that, and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents, staff leaving, a change in leadership. We use surveys with the children, for instance, and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties. So, there's not one single criteria alone that will tell you, 'This is a school that is at risk of causing concern', but taken together, having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools, I believe.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Well, we'll be coming on to that middle tier later on, and perhaps that's where the problem lies, namely that if there isn't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves, perhaps that's where the focus needs to be.
Meilyr Rowlands: I would say that it's not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem. The greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support, where all the agencies that support these schools are working together.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Well, how long does it take, therefore, for a school to move from an improvement category, in terms of special measures, to be escalated then? Because one sees sometimes that there's an excellent school, and within five years' time, it's in the red. So, there's a great deal of variance in that.
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, well, gradually, perhaps.
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. Perhaps Claire can respond to this.
Claire Morgan: On average, secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years, on average. Some are shorter; some are quite a considerable amount longer. It's a little less for schools that go into significant improvement. With primary schools, of course, it's much shorter because the issues are far less complex; it's easier to bring about improvements in teaching. When you've got large numbers of staff, you've got large secondary schools, it takes time to actually bring about those improvements, but it is a long time, just over two years, when you think that some pupils, maybe in key stage 4 for the two years—. Certainly, we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker, and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step. All partners involved in supporting the school are involved in these improvement boards. They focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest, and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is: ourselves, the regions, local authorities, the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement. So, it's getting an agreement on what the issues are, and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication, but that we support the school in the areas they need more support. And we hope that this then will accelerate the improvement of the schools that find themselves in category. But, as Meilyr already said, there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern. So, the pilot is trying out those two different approaches as well.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you. And just finally from me, for the time being at least, the financial situation; we've spoken about that already this morning. If you could—. If funding was injected into the system tomorrow, say, what would you spend it on? What aspects would benefit from that additional funding?
Meilyr Rowlands: Were you asking about something specific there?
Sian Gwenllian AM: In the schools themselves, if you were a school leader, what would you—
Meilyr Rowlands: Oh, if I were a school leader.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes. How would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school?
Meilyr Rowlands: It's difficult to make that decision, because every school is different. It is important, of course, that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves. But, certainly, in the short term, the type of thing I would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum. That means freeing up teachers to think about what the new curriculum means to them. The schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they've had plenty of time to think about this. So, it's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in Wales to start to think. Because I think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools. But that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and, in that thinking, to contact the community, to talk to their children as well, to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum, because it's up to every school. Although the new curriculum sets a framework, it is up to each and every school to decide what they're going to teach, and what they're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twenty-first century. Therefore, to give you a somewhat superficial answer, I would be setting time aside for the training of teachers.
Jassa Scott: Can I just add one thing there? I think what we've seen over the years recently is that local authorities, to some extent, have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools, but the effect of that is that we've seen less funding going into some of the local authority services; for example, those services that support well-being, that promote attendance, and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools. So, I think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils, and to improve themselves. So, I think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority, if funding is available, it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move on to the middle tier, if I can just ask about the quality of teaching? There's been a consistent message from Estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in Wales. The Government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area, yet it's still an issue again in your annual report. You haven't said whether it's getting better or going in the right direction. What is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think, in nearly all the elements of our framework, the picture is fairly similar. So, in terms of quality of teaching, we have seen gradual but quite small-scale improvements in primary. So, you can feel that that is going in the right direction. In secondary, it's more or less level; we haven't seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse. One of the things that's really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching. It is about the teaching and learning; those are two sides of the same coin, if you like. What's important is the learning experience that our pupils get in school. From the perspective of the pupil, it's the learning; from the perspective of the teacher, it's the teaching. They are two sides to the same coin. I think there's no doubt and I think there's general agreement that, in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning—. I think it was Einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing, you'll get the same result. So, you're going to have to change something, and what's changing is the curriculum. I think there's general consensus that this is the right approach to improve the quality of teaching. And that's exactly what all schools need to do now: to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school, in their particular circumstances, in the context of their particular children. How can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school?
Lynne Neagle AM: Siân.
Sian Gwenllian AM: It does cause one concern, because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector, and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under Estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures, we're talking about half of the schools almost, and no improvement in the teaching quality in general. So, there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation, and then there's a new curriculum that comes in. I see the opportunities, but these schools that are doing well are going to go, 'Wow, up there', but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools. Isn't that where the focus should be and any additional funding that's allocated? You talked about releasing teachers for training, but perhaps it's in those particular schools that we need to focus.
Meilyr Rowlands: I do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more. But then, with regard to the other schools, in a way, there are two very broad categories, which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve—. And I believe that the new curriculum and the general support that's going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools. It's going to be an opportunity for the quality of the teaching and the learning to improve. But you're right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support, and they're going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult, because they'll also have many other problems. So, I do agree—. And you're not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in Wales, so that percentage is relatively small, the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support. That is why this pilot scheme of the multi-agency approach of supporting those schools is important. I do believe that you're right to say that there are funding implications to supporting those schools. I don't think it's enormous, but certainly there's a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair. The Minister recently told the committee that a number of recent Estyn inspections of local authorities' education services have been disappointing. Do you agree? That, of course, is based on the inspections carried out under the current cycle.
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, indeed. I think we've done nine inspections of local authorities' education services so far this cycle. We've got another two this academic year. We'll have done half of them by the end of the academic year. We'll then evaluate how things have gone. But of those nine we've put three into category—we've identified them as causing concern—and they're Pembrokeshire, Powys and Wrexham. So, we do have concerns about those authorities. So, we'll be supporting those authorities, moving forward. But I think a common factor in those inspections was secondary schools. So, we've talking quite a bit about secondary schools this morning, and I think that, again, is a factor in those local authorities.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. You say that the proportion of secondary schools causing concern is a challenge for several local authorities and for the system as a whole. Which local authorities are these—you've probably named them all—and have these been inspected yet under the current cycle?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think you're taking about three secondary schools in a category in Pembrokeshire, Wrexham and Torfaen. So, we've inspected Pembrokeshire and Wrexham already, but we haven't inspected Torfaen yet. And two schools in a category in Powys, Newport and Gwynedd. And we've inspected Powys and Newport, but we haven't inspected Gwynedd yet. So, in answer to your question: we've inspected most of those, but not all of them.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. What is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement? Does this vary across the different regions?
Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly does vary, but I'll ask Jassa to go into more detail.
Jassa Scott: We haven't directly inspected the regional consortia since—I think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them. But I think, over the last three years, we do feel that they've improved their knowledge. They're still relatively new in the big scheme of things. So, they did take a little while to embed, and I think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017. But, more recently, they've improved their knowledge of individual schools' strengths and areas for improvement, and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools, and particularly schools causing concern. But obviously, as we've been talking about this morning, there's still work to do. I think they've prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy, but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker. Even though we've had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there, we haven't seen quite the focus that we've seen on other areas. I think for schools causing concern, what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection, so we are getting some first-hand evidence of their impact through that—they're not always focused, in those schools causing concern, on improving teaching and learning, so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there. I think, generally, their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools, and I think sometimes that's because they're struggling to recruit appropriate specialists, to support with secondary, or perhaps they don't have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region. So, they're having to work a bit harder to find effective practice, to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools. We will be, over the next year, looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work. Well, we think we will be—we haven’t had our remit letter yet. But that's one of the areas we've discussed, about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia, and how robust are those inspections? What areas do you cover?
Jassa Scott: Well, regional consortia aren't actually statutory entities at the moment, and we don't have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia. What we have are powers to inspect school improvement. So, on each of our local authority inspections, there will be, usually, an area that we're looking at that relates to school improvement, and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned. What we've agreed with Welsh Government is that, over the next few years, we will take a thematic approach. So, the first area that we've said is that we'll look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform, and report on that. So, that will report specifically on the different ones, but it wouldn't be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Should they be on a statutory footing?
Jassa Scott: Well, I think that's something to be discussed over the next few years. There's, obviously, local government legislation that has been debated recently, which has the potential to create corporate joint committees, and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there. So, there may be an opportunity, if that's created, to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that. So, I think there is an opportunity. I think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and, ultimately, it's looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that's the important bit, I think, ultimately, to see the impact there. So, we are looking at them in that way, and then taking that thematic approach, but we'll keep reviewing it over the next couple of years.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. And what are Estyn's views on the latest position regarding regional working in south-west and mid Wales? Would it be preferable for school improvement advisers to be based in the consortium, Education through Regional Work, rather than each local authority employing their own, as is the case at present?
Meilyr Rowlands: If I can just go back to the last question as well, what we did in order to inspect regions was we paused our local authority inspection cycle back in 2014, I think, for about three years. So, then, we spent time looking at regions, basically, because we didn't have the resource to do both at the same time. So, we're in negotiation with Welsh Government currently, so that, going forward, we can look at local authorities and regions at the same time. If regions become statutory entities, that would be in legislation, and then you could have legislation that gives us directly the powers to inspect them, which we don't currently have. So, we have to, effectively, wait for Welsh Government to ask us to do that work. But, as Jassa said, currently, what we intend to do in the short is to do some thematic work on that. In terms of ERW, they were the region that, at the end of the last cycle of regional inspections, we were still monitoring. We are concerned about their progress, particularly in the light of recent developments. So, for example, the chair of the joint committee has resigned, the managing director remains a temporary appointment and there are no clear plans for a permanent leadership. Some of the leadership team have left—the capacity has gone down—and various staff that were appointed last summer have already left. The budget has not been agreed and certain key meetings—executive board and joint committee meetings—have been cancelled. So, we are particularly worried about ERW, and, because of that, we will be going in to visit them in April—next month—and we'll be visiting all of the authorities to make sure that they do have a plan for an appropriate school improvement service going forward. But, Jassa, probably, can say a little bit more about our plans there.
Jassa Scott: Yes, I think you asked a specific question about, you know, which is better. I think our view has been that, generally, the local authorities are too small to deliver that whole range of school improvement services, particularly given the national reform agenda at the moment. We felt last summer, when we went to ERW, that they'd managed to reach the best possible model, given the constraint they've placed, collectively, on themselves—that they want to deliver aspects of school improvement locally, through the local authorities, and have some central capacity. So, we felt that, given that they wanted to do some locally and some centrally, enough thought had been put into that structure last summer and that it could be workable. There were key aspects such as support for secondary schools causing concern and there was some capacity centrally that could support areas such as Powys. Unfortunately, as Meilyr has described, some of those aspects have since been disbanded or those staff who were on secondment have gone back, so I think it is a key risk, particularly for some of those authorities you've talked about that are causing concern, such as Powys or Pembrokeshire—that they haven't necessarily got that local capacity to support their schools causing concern. So, you've got some concerns within school capacity and you've got concerns about local authority capacity, and what you don't have there now is that collective capacity centrally that might support them. So, that's why we're going to go and do a slightly more detailed link visit to try to understand how they are mitigating the risks that we see are arising as a result of some of those things that have happened recently. Our understanding is that there's a joint committee meeting of ERW on 19 March, so, hopefully, after that point, we'll have a little bit more information about how they're planning to manage that collective set of services going forward—it's a little bit of an unknown at the moment.
Meilyr Rowlands: You were asking, 'Would it be better for every authority to have their own team?' But, before regions were invented, if you like, we were saying consistently that they tended to be too small. What happened in practice was that authorities did come together voluntarily to have joint advisory services. So, you had Cynnal in the north west, you had the Education and School Improvement Service, you had Gwent—so, they naturally did come together in groups, maybe a little bit smaller than the current regions, but they, of their own accord, produced something not very dissimilar to a region.
Lynne Neagle AM: Siân, did you have a supplementary?
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just on ERW. Does the fact that there is a dispute on the highest level feed down to the school and to the children? Are the children in south-west and mid Wales affected by this? Are standards decreasing in that part of Wales?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, it's difficult to say directly, but we have inspected nine authorities and two of those are in that area, so, the lack of support at that level, as Jassa was saying, may be the reason why those authorities are suffering difficulties.
Jassa Scott: And it is clear that many people across that area are expending energy and time discussing these issues. Any reorganisation does take energy out of the system, so it is clear that that time isn't then being spent, perhaps, on investment in improving schools and supporting staff in schools. So, as Meilyr says, it's not clear, but a lot of energy is being expended in that particular discussion that is ongoing.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What disadvantages could there be from Neath Port Talbot's intention to withdraw from regional working via ERW? And I've got to be honest, up in the north, I know that there are concerns about regional consortia, and when local authorities are under pressure financially, it questions, sometimes, the value of regional consortia. So, what disadvantages could there be from Neath Port Talbot's intention to withdraw from regional working via ERW?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think we've talked in general terms and we feel that local authorities probably are too small on their own. In general terms, you can't say that any particular authority couldn't, maybe, put things together in such a way that it's effective. Also, it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the consortium, if one withdraws. I don't know whether, Jassa, you've got anything to add to the general points we've made.
Jassa Scott: I mean, I think, what you've alluded to there, it has the potential to be a destabilising factor across the whole of the national model that we've got for supporting school improvement at a time where Welsh Government are kind of relying heavily on that consortium model to help support curriculum reform and to drive professional learning and be the conduit for lots of the aspects of reform that we've talked about. So, I think that potential risk of any destabilising across the system is a disadvantage generally. I think—. Clearly, we've talked about that capacity at a local level. There is that aspect of what that means in terms of the joint capacity across the other authorities there. And I think it's just what I've already talked about in terms of being a distraction at a crucial time for support where schools need to feel that they're confident in where they need to go for support. I should say that we're planning, as part of that visit that we do in April, to survey schools in that region about the support that they're getting, be that from their authority or from the central teams in ERW. That's something we did at the time when we did the inspections previously, and we thought it would be helpful to get some first-hand views of any disadvantages or impact that they might be feeling, really.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. And then, finally, for me:what involvement has Estyn had with the strategic education delivery group chaired by Professor Dylan Jones and what are your expectations for how it will improve the work of the middle tier?
Meilyr Rowlands: We've been members of that group right from the beginning. I personally am on it and colleagues are on it as well, and I'm a member of the sub-group that does some of the background work for that group as well, and Estyn has given several presentations to that group. I think the group is important. I remember commenting the first time it met that it was welcoming. The rather obvious thing is that you get all the strategic educational organisations together in one room, but it had never been done before, as far as I know. So, it was a really important step forward for that to happen. I'm a very firm believer in making those relationships, building those relationships, so that people understand what each of us contributes to the whole of the education system. We need to have that forum to be able to make sure that we're clear about what each of our roles is.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thanks.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Morning, all. In your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective, that children begin to feel at a very early age that they can't do certain things. I don't know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcome-based evidence—whatever, it's quite worrying. But what do you think the long-term effect on a child's development has in that respect?
Claire Morgan: It's probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings. But in a minority of schools and settings, as you've picked up, children are often introduced to things too early. So, they're introduced to phonics, they're introduced to learning to read, when they're not at that developmental stage. And really, long term, it means the children lose confidence, because if they're introduced to these things too early they don't succeed, they tend to need additional support, and it can give them a negative impression, it can give them negative thoughts about their ability. So, we need to address that, and really it's about—
Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry, what sort of age range are we talking about here?
Claire Morgan: These would be children from three to five.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay.
Claire Morgan: So, this is very, very early on.
Dawn Bowden AM: And is there something, then, in that—and I don't think there's much we can do about that, but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a year's difference in their age group, so they're born just before 1 September or just after 1 September? So, that's a huge gap, isn't it, at that point in their development?
Claire Morgan: Yes.
Dawn Bowden AM: Is that not being addressed in a way that those children are being taught and approached at that age?
Claire Morgan: Yes.
Dawn Bowden AM: Right, okay. That's fine. In terms of reading and literacy skills, we still remain quite low in the Programme for International Student Assessment ratings for reading, and I know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard. What do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think literacy has been, and still is, and still needs to be a top priority. I mean, literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education, so it really does need to be a top priority. I think it has been a high priority, but we need to continue prioritising it. We've seen some improvements over the years. For example, we've given a lot of attention to writing over the years, and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way, not just short sentences, but having the opportunity to have extended writing, and there's some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect. But almost ironically, the same sort of issue is true of reading. So, it's not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books. So, I gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention. I think the other thing I would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase, it's not just for very young children—it's really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school. One of the things we have been worried about, and I think there was some reflection of this in PISA, is that there are strengths in reading in Wales. So, PISA, for example, said that children in Wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets, but what they're saying, and they're saying this themselves, is that the love of books is decreasing, and the number of children who read regularly whole books. So, I think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example, to show their own interest in reading, to encourage children to read themselves.
Dawn Bowden AM: It's probably a wider societal problem as well, isn't it? I'm thinking about gaming, electronic gaming, computers.
Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely. I think there is some sort of link with the digital world, and the way people read—the actual technique of reading, is evolving. But I think reading is so important, and developing a complex vocabulary is so important in being able to communicate, in order to get a good job, to have enjoyment out of life—all of those things are so important. We ourselves are going to give this quite a lot of priority in future, so we're doing a major piece of work on language acquisition, which will cover some of this next year. Every year one of our thematics is the major bit of work we do, and we try to support that with a conference. So, that will be the focus that we give to our work next year—it is on language acquisition.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, thank you for that. Just one other supplementary on that, I guess, is whether you have a good idea of how many young people are coming out of school at 16—so, those that are not staying on to do A-levels—and are coming out with an inability to read or white. Do we know what the figure is for that?
Meilyr Rowlands: I can't tell you that off the top of my head, but I'm sure that there will be evidence. That's not something we inspect as such.
Dawn Bowden AM: No, no, but there should be evidence around that. Okay.
Jassa Scott: There has been a shift in that there's been continued emphasis in post-16 education and training around literacy and picking that up. For example, anyone who's studying in a further education college will have to do resits. There's an aim to try and get everyone to a basic level. In apprenticeships they'll use essential skills and so on to try and get that basic level of literacy as well, so there is an emphasis. I think one of the worrying indications, maybe, that post-16 sectors find is that sometimes even when learners are coming out with a basic qualification in a GCSE, potentially in English or a literature subject, they don't necessarily have a really good foundation of some of the basic skills as well. So, there is a lot of work to do in this area.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, all right. Could I just move you on—? Sorry—
Meilyr Rowlands: The only thing I would add to that is, I guess, it's quite small, the number of people who don't have basic reading. I think one of the things we need to emphasise is that learning reading is something you do throughout your life, and what we need to do is to develop, in particular, pupils' higher level reading skills. The fact that they can just read isn't the end of the story; they need to be developing those higher level reading skills and continuing to widen the range of things they read, and be able to develop their vocabulary at a higher level.
Dawn Bowden AM: And their comprehension, I guess.
Meilyr Rowlands: Sorry?
Dawn Bowden AM: And their comprehension as well.
Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely, yes—those higher level skills of comprehension and inference and those sorts of things.
Dawn Bowden AM: Sure, okay. Can I just move you on, then, to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you're satisfied with the progress in numeracy, because I think we were doing better on the PISA results in maths in Wales than we did previously? So, what are your thoughts on that?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is a fairly clear good news story here. PISA shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed, I think, to the new GCSE mathematics numeracy. I think there's much less predictability in that work; you can't approach it in a formulaic way, either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it. There's much more problem solving. It's about applying what you've learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum. I think that that GCSE numeracy has built on the work that's been done lower down on the national numeracy framework, which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problem-solving situation. That has been a really good news story, really.
Dawn Bowden AM: That's something to be positive about, anyway. That's good. My final question, Chair, is: in your view, to what extent is Wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 2020-1 cycle for PISA?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think that that target is somewhat arbitrary, but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—I think we would expect to see those improvements we've seen in science and in mathematics to continue. We've talked about reading and I think we will be giving more attention to reading. I think the education system more generally, hopefully, will give more attention to reading. So, I would hope to see improvements there as well. The only other thing I would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading, and the reason for that is you don't do a lot mathematics or science in the home. But the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors, more so, maybe, than mathematics and science. So, I think that's another reason why I think a community-school approach is really important. You need to get everybody on board; it's not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it's important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just on numeracy, it was interesting because one of the schools in my constituency have actually contacted my office and a number of other organisations across the constituency to ask us how we use maths in our work. So, they're obviously trying to relate that now to everyday life and working, which I thought was quite good.
Meilyr Rowlands: That's good.
Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils. If I can start and ask you how concerning is it that the gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years, especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment.
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things I've noted in the annual report. So, I think it is a concern to us. I think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries, for example, in PISA, we do compare quite well in terms of equity. There's also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased, so that we're in a way running to keep still. And I think also, as I was suggesting about the reading, poverty really is a social phenomenon. Schools can't solve that on their own. So, there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty gap hasn't closed, but that's not to say that schools can't do something about it, and I've suggested in the annual report a sort of a two-pronged approach. One is the new curriculum. I think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning, better teaching and learning, helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately. So, they gain more from it that their peers. So, I think improving teaching and learning, and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom. So, that's one approach, and then the other approach, which I've also mentioned earlier, is having a community-focused approach to schools. The schools that do more successfully tackle the poverty gap are the schools that take that kind of approach. It means helping the pupils. It means helping their families. It's about making pupil well-being really high on the agenda. It's very difficult for children to do well in school if they've got all kinds of things happening in their background. So, it's important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them. So, it's quite a complex—. It's challenging for schools to go down this route, and I think the more help we can give schools to take that approach, the better. But the schools that do do it do benefit a lot from it. They have better engagement from parents, from the families, and that then reflects back on the work of the children.
Jassa Scott: And we've just published a collection of good practice about how schools support vulnerable learners, and we'll be teasing out the aspects around community-focused schools a lot more in a report that we'll publish in the next couple of months. So, we've kind of drilled down and looked at what some schools are doing in that area in a bit more detail.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Suzy, on this.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, just quickly. Obviously, I think we've all been to schools where the PDG is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say. But I just wanted to interrogate the deprivation gap a little bit, because, of course, even though, as you say, there's perhaps more equity in Wales, one of the reasons for that is because our children from better-off backgrounds do less well, and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the United Kingdom. So, whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful, that's one of the reasons—that our better-off children aren't doing as well as perhaps they might do. Is that a concern as well? We don't want this rush to the middle, do we?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can, absolutely. So, it's not quite the same issue, but we've talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well.
Suzy Davies AM: They're not the same.
Meilyr Rowlands: They're not the same, clearly, because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds. Differentiation is a challenge for schools, but it's absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can. So, in things like PISA, in terms of reading, for example, we can't just say it's that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve. And I think that's why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have, whether they’re more able, whether they're advantaged or whether they're disadvantaged.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thanks. Thank you, Lynne.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Pupils' confidence in their school's ability to help them with their emotional and mental well-being is much less at secondary school and that's been a consistent theme as well from your reports. Why do you think that is?
Jassa Scott: Yes, you're right. As we mentioned earlier, we do pupil surveys before all our inspections, and across a number of those indicators, like, 'How well does the school listen? Do adults in school care about me? How well does the school deal with bullying?'—quite a lot those ones around well-being do tail off. Nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence, down to half at key stage 4, as you say. And I think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that: I think one of the factors is that pupils face, sometimes, more challenges as they get older in those teenage years, but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning. And I think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they're getting about well-being in terms of their lessons, in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on. So, they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school, but the pupils don't notice. I think we've already touched upon things like the differences in the way that, at primary school, you would tend to have a go-to adult, which is your teacher. The best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people, but it's more of a challenge to make sure that that happens, because of the way they're operating. We still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and well-being support, which we've made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports, but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports. And I think I already touched upon the fact that sometimes, when the budget is tight, it can be some of those—they're not peripheral in their importance, but they're not the teacher in the classroom: well-being support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding. So, I think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job, but perhaps they're not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment. Maybe there a fewer of them around. So, I think there's not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally, as they get older. So, you might have a truer reflection of opinions than perhaps—. And that might explain some of the difference with primary, where, generally, they're quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask.
Lynne Neagle AM: So, it's not that secondary schools—because you've said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and well-being.
Jassa Scott: I think there's an element that it's more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges. And one of the pieces of work we've done recently is around adverse childhood experiences, and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it. Once you've trained your staff, then they've got that knowledge. They're the ones who are working day to day with the schools. Secondary schools haven't always taken a whole-school approach to that. They might have trained a set of staff. So, maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding, but also those staff aren't spending the same amount of time with pupils. So, in terms of getting to know pupils, picking up on signs that they may be struggling, or that there might be concerns—it's much more of a challenge. You've got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you've got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of information together to actually mean that you can target support where it's needed.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm just thinking again about specific groups of pupils. Obviously, we've had one case in north Wales, in an independent school, where there were serious concerns. What's that done to your desire to monitor and check what's going on in these independent schools? Are they regulated sufficiently?
Jassa Scott: I'll pick up on that as well. Just to explain how we work with independent schools, initially, to give the context. So, there are different kinds of independent schools. So, some have boarding provision, and where they have boarding provision, Care Inspectorate Wales would look at the boarding side of it, we'd look at the educational side of it. There are others where they may have a linked children's home, which can be another room in the same house, or it can be a number of miles away, and similarly there CIW would look at the residential aspects of the care and we'd look at the school. So, I think, there's a focus in the independent school standards regulations, which is a minimum that all schools have to meet to maintain a registration. There is a focus in that on how that school looks after and cares for its pupils, and there are focuses on that element of boarding provision where relevant, and the national minimum standards that the care inspectorate look at that have aspects around supporting well-being as well. What we do find in our inspections is that, overall, we generally find that pupils' well-being develops, they make good progress, and that care, support and guidance that schools give is good. What we mean by that, really, practically, is that they are developing their resilience and their self-esteem. In special schools, this might mean particularly that those pupils learn to manage their anxieties better so that they improve their behaviour, which may be one of the reasons why they're in that specialist setting. In mainstream independent schools, what we find is that people develop their tenacity, their curiosity for learning—their resilience in that way. But there are shortcomings sometimes. For example, there was one school where we found that they weren't making appropriate referrals to child and adolescent mental health services. So, these schools do operate independently by their nature, and their awareness, perhaps, of some of the guidance and support that is out there—sometimes, maybe, there can be more to be done, and I think we've talked to Welsh Government about that.
Suzy Davies AM: What's Estyn's role in that—to bring that level of awareness to those schools?
Jassa Scott: I think we do through our inspection guidance, and the independent school standards do refer to Welsh Government guidance—it's something like 'Keeping learners safe', which is a really key document, which supports safeguarding and caring across schools. That's regularly discussed and talked about and referred to with those schools. So, I think the other area is that sometimes we don't have the intelligence about what—. So, for example, if there's been a safeguarding referral from a school, we don't necessarily always get that information, which means that when we do go to inspect, we may not have the full picture to help us tailor our inspection activity. So, that's something we've raised—
Lynne Neagle AM: [Inaudible.]—be brief and brief in answers.
Suzy Davies AM: Al right, okay. Do you mind if I move on to the next question?
Lynne Neagle AM: We're going to have to skip those, I'm afraid, and talk to the last set of questions, just because of the time pressures. Hefin.
Hefin David AM: I'd like to ask in Welsh, please. What role, if any, did Estyn have in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development's latest review of progress in school improvement when they visited Wales in late 2019?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we were interviewed. Therefore, the three of us had an interview with the OECD officials and we offered evidence to them. And I think that, when the report is published, you will see that the OECD does draw on our broader evidence and will be quoting our reports—the annual report and some of our thematic reports. That is the part that we played in that work.
Hefin David AM: Thanks. How significant a role do you believe the national evaluation and improvement resource will play in raising school standards?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think that it's very important. It's Claire who has been specifically tasked with that, so I'll ask Claire to speak about it.
Claire Morgan: I think working together with the practitioners, the regions and representatives from local authorities is a great opportunity to develop a national approach, because we know across Wales there's some excellent practice, but we know there are schools that struggle to bring about improvement. So, this national resource has the potential to provide schools with detailed guidance on how they can approach not only self-evaluation, but, more importantly, how they can bring about that improvement. So, it will be a resource that develops over time. It's starting—we're piloting currently with around 40 schools. Half of those have been involved in developing the tools and approaches right from the start, and 22 new schools have come on board this year. But we anticipate that there will be lots of tools and approaches within that resource that schools can use to improve the quality of self-evaluation throughout the school, primaries, secondaries, PRUs and special schools. But it will focus on establishing a culture within the school that focuses on improvement, that establishes a reflective culture where all staff are involved in development. So, we're hoping that this tool—it's still currently in development, but we hope that that will support schools really well.
Hefin David AM: So, it's an evolving piece of work.
Claire Morgan: Yes, it is.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And, with regard to comparison of performance, does the lack of comparative attainment data raise difficulties when you're inspecting and drawing conclusions and standards in schools?
Meilyr Rowlands: Not really, no. I think there was a bit of a myth that a lot of this performance data was just for Estyn, but actually it never has been. When we inspect, we look at a whole range of aspects of the work. We look at standards, we look at teaching and learning in the classroom, we look at well-being, we look at care support and guidance, we look at leadership, we look at all of these things, and we look at it based on first-hand evidence—what we actually see in the classroom. So, we're quite happy to continue to inspect schools, and we in fact support having less emphasis on data because, although data is useful, and we hope that schools will continue to analyse their data and use that data to help them self-improve and self-evaluate, we don't actually need it and it has actually created a bit of a high-stakes culture. So, I think stepping back from that culture is a good idea.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you very much. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you all for your attendance? As usual, you'll receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. But thank you very much again for coming in this morning.
Meilyr Rowlands: Diolch yn fawr—thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a ministerial update on the emotional and mental health of children and young people in Wales—next steps for 'Mind over matter'. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government regarding teachers' pay and pensions, and paper to note 3 is a letter to the Minister for Education from us regarding the school funding review. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Can I then propose under Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Great. Okay. Thank you.
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Professor B: Is it starting now ?
PhD E: Yep .
Professor B: So what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} from {disfmarker} what {disfmarker}
Grad A: Hello ?
Professor B: Whatever we say from now on , it can be held against us , right ?
PhD E: That 's right .
Professor B: and uh
Grad A: It 's your right to remain silent .
Professor B: Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the problem is that I actually don't know how th these held meetings are held , if they are very informal and sort of just people are say what 's going on
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: and
PhD E: Yeah , that 's usually what we do .
Professor B: OK .
PhD E: We just sorta go around and people say what 's going on , what 's the latest uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah . OK . So I guess that what may be a {disfmarker} reasonable is if I uh first make a report on what 's happening in Aurora in general , at least what from my perspective .
PhD E: Yeah . That would be great .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} and uh so , I {disfmarker} I think that Carmen and Stephane reported on uh Amsterdam meeting ,
PhD D: Uh o
Professor B: which was kind of interesting because it was for the first time we realized we are not friends really , but we are competitors . Cuz until then it was sort of like everything was like wonderful and {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah . It seemed like there were still some issues ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: right ? that they were trying to decide ?
Professor B: There is a plenty of {disfmarker} there 're plenty of issues .
PhD E: Like the voice activity detector ,
Professor B: Well and what happened was that they realized that if two leading proposals , which was French Telecom Alcatel , and us both had uh voice activity detector . And I said " well big surprise , I mean we could have told you that {pause} n n n four months ago , except we didn't because nobody else was bringing it up " .
PhD E: Right .
Professor B: Obviously French Telecom didn't volunteer this information either , cuz we were working on {disfmarker} mainly on voice activity detector for past uh several months
PhD E: Right .
Professor B: because that 's buying us the most uh thing . And everybody said " Well but this is not fair . We didn't know that . " And of course uh the {disfmarker} it 's not working on features really . And be I agreed .
PhD E: Right .
Professor B: I said " well yeah , you are absolutely right , I mean if I wish that you provided better end point at speech because uh {disfmarker} or at least that if we could modify the recognizer , uh to account for these long silences , because otherwise uh that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} th that wasn't a correct thing . " And so then ev ev everybody else says " well we should {disfmarker} we need to do a new eval evaluation without voice activity detector , or we have to do something about it " .
PhD E: Right .
Professor B: And in principle I {disfmarker} uh I {disfmarker} we agreed .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: We said uh " yeah " . Because uh {disfmarker} but in that case , uh we would like to change the uh {disfmarker} the algorithm because uh if we are working on different data , we probably will use a different set of tricks .
PhD E: Right .
Professor B: But unfortunately nobody ever officially can somehow acknowledge that this can be done , because French Telecom was saying " no , no , no , now everybody has access to our code , so everybody is going to copy what we did . " Yeah well our argument was everybody ha has access to our code , and everybody always had access to our code . We never uh {disfmarker} uh denied that . We thought that people are honest , that if you copy something and if it is protected {disfmarker} protected by patent then you negotiate , or something ,
PhD E: Yeah . Right .
Professor B: right ? I mean , if you find our technique useful , we are very happy .
PhD E: Right .
Professor B: But {disfmarker} And French Telecom was saying " no , no , no ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: there is a lot of little tricks which uh sort of uh cannot be protected and you guys will take them , " which probably is also true . I mean , you know , it might be that people will take uh uh th the algorithms apart and use the blocks from that . But I somehow think that it wouldn't be so bad , as long as people are happy abou uh uh uh honest about it .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: And I think they have to be honest in the long run , because winning proposal again {disfmarker} uh what will be available th is {disfmarker} will be a code . So the uh {disfmarker} the people can go to code and say " well listen this is what you stole from me "
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: you know ?
PhD E: Right .
Professor B: " so let 's deal with that " .
PhD E: Right .
Professor B: So I don't see the problem . The biggest problem of course is that f that Alcatel French Telecom cl claims " well we fulfilled the conditions . We are the best . Uh . We are the standard . " And e and other people don't feel that , because they {disfmarker} so they now decided that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} the whole thing will be done on well - endpointed data , essentially that somebody will endpoint the data based on clean speech , because most of this the SpeechDat - Car has the also close speaking mike and endpoints will be provided .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Ah .
Professor B: And uh we will run again {disfmarker} still not clear if we are going to run the {disfmarker} if we are allowed to run uh uh new algorithms , but I assume so . Because uh we would fight for that , really . uh but {disfmarker} since uh u u n u {disfmarker} at least our experience is that only endpointing a {disfmarker} a mel cepstrum gets uh {disfmarker} gets you twenty - one percent improvement overall and twenty - seven improvement on SpeechDat - Car
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: then obvious the database {disfmarker} uh I mean the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} uh the baseline will go up . And nobody can then achieve fifty percent improvement .
PhD E: Right .
Professor B: So they agreed that uh there will be a twenty - five percent improvement required on {disfmarker} on uh h u m bad mis badly mismatched {disfmarker}
PhD E: But wait a minute , I thought the endpointing really only helped in the noisy cases .
Professor B: It uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: Oh , but you still have that with the MFCC .
Professor B: Y yeah .
PhD E: OK .
Professor B: Yeah but you have the same prob I mean MFCC basically has an enormous number of uh insertions .
PhD E: Yeah . Right . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
Professor B: And so , so now they want to say " we {disfmarker} we will require fifty percent improvement only for well matched condition , and only twenty - five percent for the serial cases . "
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: And uh {disfmarker} and they almost agreed on that except that it wasn't a hundred percent agreed . And so last time uh during the meeting , I just uh brought up the issue , I said " well you know uh quite frankly I 'm surprised how lightly you are making these decisions because this is a major decision . For two years we are fighting for fifty percent improvement and suddenly you are saying " oh no we {disfmarker} we will do something less " , but maybe we should discuss that . And everybody said " oh we discussed that and you were not a mee there " and I said " well a lot of other people were not there because not everybody participates at these teleconferencing c things . " Then they said " oh no no no because uh everybody is invited . " However , there is only ten or fifteen lines , so people can't even con you know participate . So eh they agreed , and so they said " OK , we will discuss that . " Immediately Nokia uh raised the question and they said " oh yeah we agree this is not good to to uh dissolve the uh uh {disfmarker} the uh {disfmarker} the criterion . "
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So now officially , Nokia is uh uh complaining and said they {disfmarker} they are looking for support , uh I think QualComm is uh saying , too " we shouldn't abandon the fifty percent yet . We should at least try once again , one more round . "
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So this is where we are .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I hope that {disfmarker} I hope that this is going to be a adopted .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: Next Wednesday we are going to have uh another uh teleconferencing call , so we 'll see what uh {disfmarker} where it goes .
PhD E: So what about the issue of um the weights on the {disfmarker} for the different systems , the well - matched , and medium - mismatched and {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah , that 's what {disfmarker} that 's a g very good uh point , because David says " well you know we ca we can manipulate this number by choosing the right weights anyways . " So while you are right but {disfmarker} uh you know but
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Uh yeah , if of course if you put a zero {disfmarker} uh weight zero on a mismatched condition , or highly mismatched then {disfmarker} then you are done .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But weights were also deter already decided uh half a year ago . So {disfmarker}
PhD E: And they 're the {disfmarker} staying the same ?
Professor B: Well , of course people will not like it . Now {disfmarker} What is happening now is that I th I think that people try to match the criterion to solution .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: They have solution . Now they want to {vocalsound} make sure their criterion is {disfmarker}
PhD E: Right .
Professor B: And I think that this is not the right way .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: Uh it may be that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} Eventually it may ha may ha it may have to happen . But it 's should happen at a point where everybody feels comfortable that we did all what we could .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And I don't think we did .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Basically , I think that {disfmarker} that this test was a little bit bogus because of the data and uh essentially {pause} there were these arbitrary decisions made , and {disfmarker} and everything . So , so {disfmarker} so this is {disfmarker} so this is where it is . So what we are doing at OGI now is uh uh uh working basically on our parts which we I think a little bit neglected , like noise separation . Uh so we are looking in ways is {disfmarker} in uh which {disfmarker} uh with which we can provide better initial estimate of the mel spectrum basically , which would be a l uh , f more robust to noise , and so far not much uh success .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: We tried uh things which uh a long time ago Bill Byrne suggested , instead of using Fourier spectrum , from Fourier transform , use the spectrum from LPC model . Their argument there was the LPC model fits the peaks of the spectrum , so it may be m naturally more robust in noise . And I thought " well , that makes sense , " but so far we can't get much {disfmarker} much out of it .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: uh we may try some standard techniques like spectral subtraction and {disfmarker}
PhD E: You haven't tried that yet ?
Professor B: not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not much . Or even I was thinking about uh looking back into these totally ad - hoc techniques
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: like for instance uh Dennis Klatt was suggesting uh the one way to uh deal with noisy speech is to add noise to everything .
PhD E: Hmm !
Professor B: So . {comment} I mean , uh uh add moderate amount of noise to all data .
PhD E: Oh !
Professor B: So that makes uh th any additive noise less addi less a a effective ,
PhD E: I see .
Professor B: right ? Because you already uh had the noise uh in a {disfmarker}
PhD E: Right .
Professor B: And it was working at the time . It was kind of like one of these things , you know , but if you think about it , it 's actually pretty ingenious . So well , you know , just take a {disfmarker} take a spectrum and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and add of the constant , C , to every {disfmarker} every value .
PhD E: Well you 're {disfmarker} you 're basically y Yeah . So you 're making all your training data more uniform .
Professor B: Exactly . And if {disfmarker} if then {disfmarker} if this data becomes noisy , it b it becomes eff effectively becomes less noisy basically .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: But of course you cannot add too much noise because then you 'll s then you 're clean recognition goes down , but I mean it 's yet to be seen how much , it 's a very simple technique .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yes indeed it 's a very simple technique , you just take your spectrum and {disfmarker} and use whatever is coming from FFT , {pause} add constant ,
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: you know ? on {disfmarker} onto power spectrum . That {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} Or the other thing is of course if you have a spectrum , what you can s start doing , you can leave {disfmarker} start leaving out the p the parts which are uh uh low in energy and then perhaps uh one could try to find a {disfmarker} a all - pole model to such a spectrum . Because a all - pole model will still try to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to put the {disfmarker} the continuation basically of the {disfmarker} of the model into these parts where the issue set to zero . That 's what we want to try . I have a visitor from Brno . He 's a {disfmarker} kind of like young faculty . pretty hard - working so he {disfmarker} so he 's {disfmarker} so he 's looking into that .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: And then most of the effort is uh now also aimed at this e e TRAP recognition . This uh {disfmarker} this is this recognition from temporal patterns .
PhD E: Hmm ! What is that ?
Professor B: Ah , you don't know about TRAPS !
Grad A: Hmm .
PhD E: The TRAPS sound familiar , I {disfmarker} but I don't {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah I mean tha This is familiar like sort of because we gave you the name , but , what it is , is that normally what you do is that you recognize uh speech based on a shortened spectrum .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Essentially L P - LPC , mel cepstrum , uh , everything starts with a spectral slice . Uh so if you s So , given the spectrogram you essentially are sliding {disfmarker} sliding the spectrogram along the uh f frequency axis
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and you keep shifting this thing , and you have a spectrogram .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So you can say " well you can also take the time trajectory of the energy at a given frequency " , and what you get is then , that you get a p {pause} vector .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And this vector can be a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} s assigned to s some phoneme . Namely you can say i it {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} I will say that this vector will eh {disfmarker} will {disfmarker} will describe the phoneme which is in the center of the vector . And you can try to classify based on that .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: And you {disfmarker} so you classi so it 's a very different vector , very different properties , we don't know much about it , but the truth is {disfmarker}
PhD E: Hmm . But you have many of those vectors per phoneme ,
Professor B: Well , so you get many decisions .
PhD E: right ? Uh - huh .
Professor B: And then you can start dec thinking about how to combine these decisions . Exactly , that 's what {disfmarker} yeah , that 's what it is .
PhD E: Hmm . Hmm .
Professor B: Because if you run this uh recognition , you get {disfmarker} you still get about twenty percent error {disfmarker} uh twenty percent correct . You know ,
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: on {disfmarker} on like for the frame by frame basis , so {pause} uh {disfmarker} uh so it 's much better than chance .
PhD E: How wide are the uh frequency bands ?
Professor B: That 's another thing . Well c currently we start {disfmarker} I mean we start always with critical band spectrum . For various reasons . But uh the latest uh observation uh is that you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you are {disfmarker} you can get quite a big advantage of using two critical bands at the same time .
Grad A: Are they adjacent , or are they s
Professor B: Adjacent , adjacent .
Grad A: OK .
Professor B: And the reasons {disfmarker} there are some reasons for that . Because there are some reasons I can {disfmarker} I could talk about , will have to tell you about things like masking experiments which uh uh uh uh yield critical bands , and also experiments with release of masking , which actually tell you that something is happening across critical bands , across bands . And {disfmarker}
PhD E: Well how do you {disfmarker} how do you uh convert this uh energy over time in a particular frequency band into a vector of numbers ?
Professor B: It 's uh uh uh I mean time T - zero is one number , {pause} time t
PhD E: Yeah but what 's the number ? Is it just the {disfmarker}
Professor B: It 's a spectral energy , logarithmic spectral energy ,
PhD E: it 's just the amount of energy in that band from f in that time interval .
Professor B: yeah . Yes , yes . Yes , yes .
PhD E: OK .
Professor B: And that 's what {disfmarker} that 's what I 'm saying then , so this is a {disfmarker} this is a starting vector . It 's just like shortened f {pause} spectrum , or something . But now we are trying to understand what this vector actually represents ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: for instance a question is like " how correlated are the elements of this vector ? " Turns out they are quite correlated , because I mean , especially the neighboring ones , right ? They {disfmarker} they represent the same {disfmarker} almost the same configuration of the vocal tract .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So there 's a very high correlation . So the classifiers which use the diagonal covariance matrix don't like it . So we 're thinking about de - correlating them .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: Then the question is uh " can you describe elements of this vector by Gaussian distributions " , or to what extent ? Because uh {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and so on and so on . So we are learning quite a lot about that . And then another issue is how many vectors we should be using ,
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: I mean the {disfmarker} so the minimum is one .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But I mean is the {disfmarker} is the critical band the right uh uh dimension ? So we somehow made arbitrary decision , " yes " . Then {disfmarker} but then now we are thinking a lot how to {disfmarker} uh how to use at least the neighboring band because that seems to be happening {disfmarker} This I somehow start to believe that 's what 's happening in recognition . Cuz a lot of experiments point to the fact that people can split the signal into critical bands , but then oh uh uh so you can {disfmarker} you are quite capable of processing a signal in uh uh independently in individual critical bands . That 's what masking experiments tell you . But at the same time you most likely pay attention to at least neighboring bands when you are making any decisions , you compare what 's happening in {disfmarker} in this band to what 's happening to the band {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker} to the neighboring bands . And that 's how you make uh decisions . That 's why the articulatory events , which uh F F Fletcher talks about , they are about two critical bands . You need at least two , basically . You need some relative , relative relation .
Grad A: Hmm .
Professor B: Absolute number doesn't tell you the right thing .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: You need to {disfmarker} you need to compare it to something else , what 's happening but it 's what 's happening in the {disfmarker} in the close neighborhood . So if you are making decision what 's happening at one kilohertz , you want to know what 's happening at nine hundred hertz and it {disfmarker} and maybe at eleven hundred hertz , but you don't much care what 's happening at three kilohertz .
PhD E: So it 's really w It 's sort of like saying that what 's happening at one kilohertz depends on what 's happening around it . It 's sort of relative to it .
Professor B: To some extent , it {disfmarker} that is also true . Yeah . But it 's {disfmarker} but for {disfmarker} but for instance , {vocalsound} th uh {vocalsound} uh what {disfmarker} what uh humans are very much capable of doing is that if th if they are exactly the same thing happening in two neighboring critical bands , recognition can discard it .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Is what 's happening {disfmarker}
PhD E: Hmm .
Grad A: Hey !
Professor B: Hey ! OK , we need us another {disfmarker} another voice here .
PhD E: Hey Stephane .
Professor B: Yeah , I think so . Yeah ?
PhD E: Yep . Sure . Go ahead .
Professor B: And so so {disfmarker} so for instance if you d if you a if you add the noise that normally masks {disfmarker} masks the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the signal right ?
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and you can show that in {disfmarker} that if the {disfmarker} if you add the noise outside the critical band , that doesn't affect the {disfmarker} the decisions you 're making about a signal within a critical band .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: Unless this noise is modulated . If the noise is modulated , with the same modulation frequency as the noise in a critical band , the amount of masking is less . The moment you {disfmarker} moment you provide the noise in n neighboring critical bands .
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor B: So the s m masking curve , normally it looks like sort of {disfmarker} I start from {disfmarker} from here , so you {disfmarker} {comment} you have uh no noise then you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you are expanding the critical band , so the amount of maching is increasing . And when you e hit a certain point , which is a critical band , then the amount of masking is the same .
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor B: So that 's the famous experiment of Fletcher , a long time ago . Like that 's where people started thinking " wow this is interesting ! " So .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: But , if you {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} if you modulate the noise , the masking goes up and the moment you start hitting the {disfmarker} another critical band , the masking goes down . So essentially {disfmarker} essentially that 's a very clear indication that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {pause} cognition can take uh uh into consideration what 's happening in the neighboring bands . But if you go too far in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} if the noise is very broad , you are not increasing much more , so {disfmarker} so if you {disfmarker} if you are far away from the signal {disfmarker} uh from the signal f uh the frequency at which the signal is , then the m even the {disfmarker} when the noise is co - modulated it {disfmarker} it 's not helping you much .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Hmm .
Professor B: So . So things like this we are kind of playing with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with the hope that perhaps we could eventually u use this in a {disfmarker} in a real recognizer .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Like uh partially of course we promised to do this under the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the Aurora uh program .
PhD E: But you probably won't have anything before the next time we have to evaluate ,
Professor B: Probably not .
PhD E: right ?
Professor B: Well , maybe , most likely we will not have anything which c would comply with the rules .
PhD E: Yeah . Ah .
Professor B: like because uh uh
PhD E: Latency and things .
Professor B: latency currently chops the require uh significant uh latency amount of processing ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: because uh we don't know any better , yet , than to use the neural net classifiers , uh and uh {disfmarker} and uh TRAPS .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Though the {disfmarker} the work which uh everybody is looking at now aims at s trying to find out what to do with these vectors , so that a g simple Gaussian classifier would be happier with it .
PhD C: Hmm .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: or to what extent a Gaussian classifier should be unhappy uh that , and how to Gaussian - ize the vectors , and {disfmarker}
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: So this is uh what 's happening . Then Sunil is uh uh uh asked me f for one month 's vacation and since he did not take any vacation for two years , I had no {disfmarker} I didn't have heart to tell him no . So he 's in India .
PhD E: Wow .
Professor B: And uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: Is he getting married or something ?
Professor B: Uh well , he may be looking for a girl , for {disfmarker} for I don't {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} I don't ask . I know that Naran - when last time Narayanan did that he came back engaged .
PhD E: Right . Well , I mean , I 've known other friends who {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they go to Ind - they go back home to India for a month , they come back married ,
Professor B: Yeah . I know . I know , I know ,
PhD E: you know , huh .
Professor B: and then of course then what happened with Narayanan was that he start pushing me that he needs to get a PHD because they wouldn't give him his wife . And she 's very pretty and he loves her and so {disfmarker} so we had to really {disfmarker}
PhD E: So he finally had some incentive to finish ,
Professor B: Oh yeah . We had {disfmarker} well I had a incentive because he {disfmarker} he always had this plan except he never told me .
PhD E: huh ?
Professor B: Sort of figured that {disfmarker} That was a uh that he uh he told me the day when we did very well at our NIST evaluations of speaker recognition , the technology , and he was involved there .
PhD E: Oh .
Professor B: We were {disfmarker} after presentation we were driving home and he told me .
PhD E: When he knew you were happy ,
Professor B: Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I said " well , yeah , OK " so he took another {disfmarker} another three quarter of the year but uh he was out .
PhD E: huh ?
Professor B: So I {disfmarker} wouldn't surprise me if he has a plan like that , though {disfmarker} though uh Pratibha still needs to get out first .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: Cuz Pratibha is there a {disfmarker} a year earlier .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: And S and Satya needs to get out very first because he 's {disfmarker} he already has uh four years served , though one year he was getting masters . So . So .
PhD C: Hmm .
PhD E: So have the um {disfmarker} when is the next uh evaluation ? June or something ?
Professor B: Which ? Speaker recognition ?
PhD E: No , for uh Aurora ?
Professor B: Uh there , we don't know about evaluation , next meeting is in June .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: And uh uh but like getting {disfmarker} get together .
PhD E: Oh , OK . Are people supposed to rerun their systems ,
Professor B: Nobody said that yet .
PhD E: or {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: I assume so . Uh yes , uh , but nobody even set up yet the {pause} date for uh delivering uh endpointed data .
PhD E: Hmm . Wow .
Professor B: And this uh {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that sort of stuff . But I uh , yeah , what I think would be of course extremely useful , if we can come to our next meeting and say " well you know we did get fifty percent improvement . If {disfmarker} if you are interested we eventually can tell you how " , but uh we can get fifty percent improvement .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Because people will s will be saying it 's impossible .
PhD E: Hmm . Do you know what the new baseline is ? Oh , I guess if you don't have {disfmarker}
Professor B: Twenty - two {disfmarker} t twenty {disfmarker} twenty - two percent better than the old baseline .
PhD E: Using your uh voice activity detector ?
Professor B: u Yes . Yes . But I assume that it will be similar , I don't {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't see the reason why it shouldn't be .
PhD E: Similar , yeah .
Professor B: I d I don't see reason why it should be worse .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Cuz if it is worse , then we will raise the objection ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: we say " well you know how come ? " Because eh if we just use our voice activity detector , which we don't claim even that it 's wonderful , it 's just like one of them .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: We get this sort of improvement , how come that we don't see it on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on your endpointed data ?
PhD C: Yeah . I guess it could be even better ,
Professor B: I think so .
PhD C: because the voice activity detector that I choosed is something that cheating , it 's using the alignment of the speech recognition system ,
Professor B: Yeah . C yeah uh
PhD C: and only the alignment on the clean channel , and then mapped this alignment to the noisy channel .
Professor B: and on clean speech data . Yeah .
PhD E: Oh , OK .
Professor B: Well David told me {disfmarker} David told me yesterday or Harry actually he told Harry from QualComm and Harry uh brought up the suggestion we should still go for fifty percent he says are you aware that your system does only thirty percent uh comparing to {disfmarker} to endpointed baselines ? So they must have run already something .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: So . And Harry said " Yeah . But I mean we think that we {disfmarker} we didn't say the last word yet , that we have other {disfmarker} other things which we can try . "
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: So . So there 's a lot of discussion now about this uh new criterion . Because Nokia was objecting , with uh QualComm 's {disfmarker} we basically supported that , we said " yes " .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Now everybody else is saying " well you guys might {disfmarker} must be out of your mind . " uh The {disfmarker} Guenter Hirsch who d doesn't speak for Ericsson anymore because he is not with Ericsson and Ericsson may not {disfmarker} may withdraw from the whole Aurora activity because they have so many troubles now .
PhD E: Wow .
Professor B: Ericsson 's laying off twenty percent of people .
Grad A: Wow .
PhD E: Where 's uh Guenter going ?
Professor B: Well Guenter is already {disfmarker} he got the job uh already was working on it for past two years or three years {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: he got a job uh at some {disfmarker} some Fachschule , the technical college not too far from Aachen .
PhD E: Hmm !
Professor B: So it 's like professor {disfmarker} u university professor
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: you know , not quite a university , not quite a sort of {disfmarker} it 's not Aachen University , but it 's a good school and he {disfmarker} he 's happy .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Hmm !
Professor B: And he {disfmarker} well , he was hoping to work uh with Ericsson like on t uh like consulting basis , but right now he says {disfmarker} says it doesn't look like that anybody is even thinking about speech recognition .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: They think about survival .
PhD E: Wow !
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: So . So . But this is being now discussed right now , and it 's possible that uh {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that it may get through , that we will still stick to fifty percent .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But that means that nobody will probably get this im this improvement . yet , wi with the current system . Which event es essentially I think that we should be happy with because that {disfmarker} that would mean that at least people may be forced to look into alternative solutions
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and {disfmarker}
PhD C: Mm - hmm . But maybe {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean we are not too far from {disfmarker} from fifty percent , from the new baseline .
Professor B: Uh , but not {disfmarker}
PhD C: Which would mean like sixty percent over the current baseline , which is {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah . Yes . Yes . We {disfmarker} we getting {disfmarker} we getting there , right .
PhD C: Well . We are around fifty , fifty - five .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: So .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Is it like sort of {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} How did you come up with this number ? If you improve twenty {disfmarker} by twenty percent the c the f the all baselines , it 's just a quick c comp co computation ?
PhD C: Yeah . I don't know exactly if it 's {disfmarker}
Professor B: Uh - huh . I think it 's about right .
PhD C: Yeah , because it de it depends on the weightings
Professor B: Yeah , yeah .
PhD C: and {disfmarker} Yeah . But . Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Hmm . How 's your documentation or whatever it w what was it you guys were working on last week ?
PhD C: Yeah , finally we {disfmarker} we 've not finished with this . We stopped .
PhD D: More or less it 's finished .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Ma - nec to need a little more time to improve the English , and maybe s to fill in something {disfmarker} some small detail , something like that ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Hmm .
PhD D: but it 's more or less ready .
PhD C: Yeah . Well , we have a document that explain a big part of the experiments ,
PhD D: Necessary to {disfmarker} to include the bi the bibliography .
PhD C: but
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: it 's not , yeah , finished yet . Mm - hmm .
PhD E: So have you been running some new experiments ? I {disfmarker} I thought I saw some jobs of yours running on some of the machine {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah . Right . We 've fff {comment} done some strange things like removing C - zero or C - one from the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} the vector of parameters , and we noticed that C - one is almost not useful at all . You can remove it from the vector , it doesn't hurt .
PhD E: Really ? ! That has no effect ?
PhD C: Um .
PhD E: Eh {disfmarker} Is this in the baseline ? or in uh {disfmarker}
PhD C: In the {disfmarker} No , in the proposal .
PhD E: in {disfmarker} uh - huh , uh - huh .
Professor B: So we were just discussing , since you mentioned that , in {disfmarker} it w
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: driving in the car with Morgan this morning , we were discussing a good experiment for b for beginning graduate student who wants to run a lot of {disfmarker} who wants to get a lot of numbers on something
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: which is , like , " imagine that you will {disfmarker} you will start putting every co any coefficient , which you are using in your vector , in some general power .
PhD E: In some what ?
Professor B: General pow power . Like sort of you take a s power of two , or take a square root , or something .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So suppose that you are working with a s C - zer C - one .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So if you put it in a s square root , that effectively makes your model half as efficient . Because uh your uh Gaussian mixture model , right ? computes the mean .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} and uh i i i but it 's {disfmarker} the mean is an exponent of the whatever , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this Gaussian function .
PhD E: You 're compressing the range ,
Professor B: So you 're compressing the range of this coefficient , so it 's becoming less efficient .
PhD E: right ? of that {disfmarker}
Professor B: Right ?
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So . So . Morgan was @ @ and he was {disfmarker} he was saying well this might be the alternative way how to play with a {disfmarker} with a fudge factor , you know , uh in the {disfmarker}
PhD E: Oh .
Professor B: you know , just compress the whole vector .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: And I said " well in that case why don't we just start compressing individual elements , like when {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} because in old days we were doing {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when people still were doing template matching and Euclidean distances , we were doing this liftering of parameters , right ?
PhD E: Uh - huh .
Professor B: because we observed that uh higher parameters were more important than lower for recognition . And basically the {disfmarker} the C - ze C - one contributes mainly slope ,
PhD E: Right .
Professor B: and it 's highly affected by uh frequency response of the {disfmarker} of the recording equipment and that sort of thing ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: so {disfmarker} so we were coming with all these f various lifters .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: uh Bell Labs had he {disfmarker} this uh uh r raised cosine lifter which still I think is built into H {disfmarker} HTK for reasons n unknown to anybody , but {disfmarker} but uh we had exponential lifter , or triangle lifter , basic number of lifters .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: And . But so they may be a way to {disfmarker} to fiddle with the f with the f
PhD E: Insertions .
Professor B: Insertions , deletions , or the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} giving a relative {disfmarker} uh basically modifying relative importance of the various parameters .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: The only of course problem is that there 's an infinite number of combinations and if the {disfmarker} if you s if y
PhD E: Oh . Uh - huh . You need like a {disfmarker} some kind of a {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah , you need a lot of graduate students , and a lot of computing power .
PhD E: You need to have a genetic algorithm , that basically tries random permutations of these things .
Professor B: I know . Exactly . Oh . If you were at Bell Labs or {disfmarker} I d d I shouldn't be saying this in {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on a mike , right ? Or I {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} IBM , that 's what {disfmarker} maybe that 's what somebody would be doing .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: Hmm .
Professor B: Oh , I mean , I mean the places which have a lot of computing power , so because it is really it 's a p it 's a {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it will be reasonable search
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor B: uh but I wonder if there isn't some way of doing this uh search like when we are searching say for best discriminants .
PhD E: You know actually , I don't know that this wouldn't be all that bad . I mean you {disfmarker} you compute the features once ,
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD E: right ? And then these exponents are just applied to that {disfmarker}
Professor B: Absolutely . And hev everything is fixed .
PhD E: So .
Professor B: Everything is fixed . Each {disfmarker} each {disfmarker}
PhD E: And is this something that you would adjust for training ? or only recognition ?
Professor B: For both , you would have to do . Yeah .
PhD E: You would do it on both .
Professor B: You have to do bo both .
PhD E: So you 'd actually {disfmarker}
Professor B: Because essentially you are saying " uh this feature is not important " .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Or less important , so that 's {disfmarker} th that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a painful one , yeah .
PhD E: So for each {disfmarker} uh set of exponents that you would try , it would require a training and a recognition ?
Professor B: Yeah . But {disfmarker} but wait a minute . You may not need to re uh uh retrain the m model . You just may n may need to c uh give uh less weight to {disfmarker} to uh a mod uh a component of the model which represents this particular feature . You don't have to retrain it .
PhD E: Oh . So if you {disfmarker} Instead of altering the feature vectors themselves , you {disfmarker} you modify the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the Gaussians in the models .
Professor B: You just multiply . Yeah . Yep . You modify the Gaussian in the model , but in the {disfmarker} in the test data you would have to put it in the power , but in a training what you c in a training uh {disfmarker} in trained model , all you would have to do is to multiply a model by appropriate constant .
PhD E: Uh - huh . But why {disfmarker} if you 're {disfmarker} if you 're multi if you 're altering the model , why w in the test data , why would you have to muck with the uh cepstral coefficients ?
Professor B: Because in uh test {disfmarker} in uh test data you ca don't have a model . You have uh only data . But in a {disfmarker} in a tr
PhD E: No . But you 're running your data through that same model .
Professor B: That is true , but w I mean , so what you want to do {disfmarker} You want to say if uh obs you {disfmarker} if you observe something like Stephane observes , that C - one is not important , you can do two things .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: If you have a trained {disfmarker} trained recognizer , in the model , you know the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the component which {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean di dimension {vocalsound} wh
PhD E: Mm - hmm . All of the {disfmarker} all of the mean and variances that correspond to C - one , you put them to zero .
Professor B: To the s you {disfmarker} you know it . But what I 'm proposing now , if it is important but not as important , you multiply it by point one in a model .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}
PhD E: But what are you multiplying ? Cuz those are means , right ?
Grad A: You 're multiplying the standard deviation ?
PhD E: I mean you 're {disfmarker}
Grad A: So it 's {disfmarker}
Professor B: I think that you multiply the {disfmarker} I would {disfmarker} I would have to look in the {disfmarker} in the math , I mean how {disfmarker} how does the model uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: I think you {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah , I think you 'd have to modify the standard deviation or something , so that you make it {vocalsound} wider or narrower .
Grad A: Cuz {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Effectively , that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Exactly . That 's what you do . That 's what you do , you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you modify the standard deviation as it was trained .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor B: Effectively you , you know y in f in front of the {disfmarker} of the model , you put a constant . S yeah effectively what you 're doing is you {disfmarker} is you are modifying the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the deviation . Right ?
Grad A: The spread ,
PhD E: Oop .
Grad A: right .
PhD E: Sorry .
Professor B: Yeah , the spread .
Grad A: It 's the same {disfmarker} same mean ,
PhD E: So .
Grad A: right ?
Professor B: And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}
PhD E: So by making th the standard deviation narrower , {comment} uh your scores get worse for {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: unless it 's exactly right on the mean .
Professor B: Your als No . By making it narrower ,
PhD E: Right ?
Professor B: uh y your {disfmarker}
PhD E: I mean there 's {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're allowing for less variance .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yes , so you making this particular dimension less important . Because see what you are fitting is the multidimensional Gaussian , right ?
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: It 's a {disfmarker} it has {disfmarker} it has uh thirty - nine dimensions , or thirteen dimensions if you g ignore deltas and double - deltas .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So in order {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} in order to make dimension which {disfmarker} which Stephane sees uh less important , uh uh I mean not {disfmarker} not useful , less important , what you do is that this particular component in the model you can multiply by w you can {disfmarker} you can basically de - weight it in the model . But you can't do it in a {disfmarker} in a test data because you don't have a model for th I mean uh when the test comes , but what you can do is that you put this particular component in {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you compress it . That becomes uh th gets less variance , subsequently becomes less important .
PhD E: Couldn't you just do that to the test data and not do anything with your training data ?
Professor B: That would be very bad , because uh your t your model was trained uh expecting uh , that wouldn't work . Because your model was trained expecting a certain var variance on C - one .
PhD E: Uh - huh .
Professor B: And because the model thinks C - one is important . After you train the model , you sort of {disfmarker} y you could do {disfmarker} you could do still what I was proposing initially , that during the training you {disfmarker} you compress C - one that becomes {disfmarker} then it becomes less important in a training .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But if you have {disfmarker} if you want to run e ex extensive experiment without retraining the model , you don't have to retrain the model . You train it on the original vector . But after , you {disfmarker} wh when you are doing this parametric study of importance of C - one you will de - weight the C - one component in the model , and you will put in the {disfmarker} you will compress the {disfmarker} this component in a {disfmarker} in the test data . s by the same amount .
PhD E: Could you also if you wanted to {disfmarker} if you wanted to try an experiment uh by {pause} leaving out say , C - one , couldn't you , in your test data , uh modify the {disfmarker} all of the C - one values to be um way outside of the normal range of the Gaussian for C - one that was trained in the model ? So that effectively , the C - one never really contributes to the score ?
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: No , that would be a severe mismatch ,
PhD E: Do you know what I 'm say
Professor B: right ? what you are proposing ? N no you don't want that .
PhD E: Yeah , someth
Professor B: Because that would {disfmarker} then your model would be unlikely . Your likelihood would be low , right ? Because you would be providing severe mismatch .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . But what if you set if to the mean of the model , then ? And it was a cons you set all C - ones coming in through your test data , you {disfmarker} you change whatever value that was there to the mean that your model had .
Professor B: No that would be very good match , right ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: That you would {disfmarker}
PhD C: Which {disfmarker} Well , yeah , but we have several means . So .
Professor B: I see what you are sa {pause} saying ,
PhD C: Right ?
Grad A: Saying .
Professor B: but uh , {vocalsound} no , no I don't think that it would be the same . I mean , no , the {disfmarker} If you set it to a mean , that would {disfmarker} No , you can't do that . Y you ca you ca Ch - Chuck , you can't do that .
PhD E: Oh , that 's true , right , yeah , because you {disfmarker} you have {disfmarker}
PhD C: Wait . Which {disfmarker}
Professor B: Because that would be a really f fiddling with the data ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: you can't do that .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But what you can do , I 'm confident you ca
PhD E:
Professor B: well , I 'm reasonably confident and I putting it on the record , right ? I mean y people will listen to it for {disfmarker} for centuries now , is {pause} what you can do , is you train the model uh with the {disfmarker} with the original data .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Then you decide that you want to see how important C {disfmarker} C - one is . So what you will do is that a component in the model for C - one , you will divide it by {disfmarker} by two . And you will compress your test data by square root .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Then you will still have a perfect m match . Except that this component of C - one will be half as important in a {disfmarker} in a overall score .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Then you divide it by four and you take a square , f fourth root . Then if you think that some component is more {disfmarker} is more important then th th th it then {disfmarker} then uh uh i it is , based on training , then you uh multiply this particular component in the model by {disfmarker} by {disfmarker} by {disfmarker}
PhD E: You 're talking about the standard deviation ?
Professor B: yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah , multiply this component uh i it by number b larger than one ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and you put your data in power higher than one . Then it becomes more important . In the overall score , I believe .
PhD C: Yeah , but , at the {disfmarker}
PhD E: But {pause} don't you have to do something to the mean , also ?
Professor B: No .
PhD C: No .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor B: No .
PhD C: But I think it 's {disfmarker} uh the {disfmarker} The variance is on {disfmarker} on the denominator in the {disfmarker} in the Gaussian equation . So . I think it 's maybe it 's the contrary . If you want to decrease the importance of a c parameter , you have to increase it 's variance .
Professor B: Yes . Right . Yes .
PhD D: Multiply .
Professor B: Exactly . Yeah . So you {disfmarker} so you may want to do it other way around ,
PhD C: Hmm . That 's right . OK .
Professor B: yeah .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Right .
PhD E: But if your {disfmarker} If your um original data for C - one had a mean of two .
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD E: And now you 're {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're changing that by squaring it . Now your mean of your C - one original data has {disfmarker} {comment} is four . But your model still has a mean of two . So even though you 've expended the range , your mean doesn't match anymore .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Let 's see .
PhD E: Do you see what I mean ?
PhD C: I think {disfmarker} What I see {disfmarker} What could be done is you don't change your features , which are computed once for all ,
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD C: but you just tune the model . So . You have your features . You train your {disfmarker} your model on these features .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: And then if you want to decrease the importance of C - one you just take the variance of the C - one component in the {disfmarker} in the model and increase it if you want to decrease the importance of C - one or decrease it {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: Right .
Professor B: Yeah . You would have to modify the mean in the model . I {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} I agree with you . Yeah . Yeah , but I mean , but it 's {disfmarker} it 's i it 's do - able ,
PhD C: Well .
PhD E: Yeah , so y
Professor B: right ? I mean , it 's predictable . Uh . Yeah .
PhD E: It 's predictable , yeah .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah , it 's predictable .
PhD C: Mmm .
PhD E: Yeah . But as a simple thing , you could just {disfmarker} just muck with the variance .
PhD C: Just adjust the model , yeah .
PhD E: to get uh this {disfmarker} uh this {disfmarker} the effect I think that you 're talking about ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: right ?
Professor B: It might be .
PhD E: Could increase the variance to decrease the importance .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Yeah , because if you had a huge variance , you 're dividing by a large number , {comment} you get a very small contribution .
Grad A: Doesn't matter {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah , it becomes more flat
Grad A: Right .
PhD C: and {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: Yeah , the sharper the variance , the more {disfmarker} more important to get that one right .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Yeah , you know actually , this reminds me of something that happened uh when I was at BBN . We were playing with putting um pitch into the Mandarin recognizer .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: And this particular pitch algorithm um when it didn't think there was any voicing , was spitting out zeros . So we were getting {disfmarker} uh when we did clustering , we were getting groups uh of features
Professor B: p Pretty new outliers , interesting outliers , right ?
PhD E: yeah , with {disfmarker} with a mean of zero and basically zero variance .
Professor B: Variance .
PhD E: So , when ener {comment} when anytime any one of those vectors came in that had a zero in it , we got a great score . I mean it was just , {nonvocalsound} you know , incredibly {nonvocalsound} high score , and so that was throwing everything off .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: So {vocalsound} if you have very small variance you get really good scores when you get something that matches .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: So . {vocalsound} So that 's a way , yeah , yeah {disfmarker} That 's a way to increase the {disfmarker} yeah , n That 's interesting . So in fact , that would be {disfmarker} That doesn't require any retraining .
Professor B: Yeah . No . No .
PhD C: No , that 's right . So it 's
PhD E: So that means it 's just
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: just tuning the models and testing , actually .
PhD E: recognitions .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD C: It would be quick .
PhD E: You {disfmarker} you have a step where you you modify the models , make a d copy of your models with whatever variance modifications you make , and rerun recognition .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
PhD E: And then do a whole bunch of those .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: That could be set up fairly easily I think , and you have a whole bunch of you know {disfmarker}
Professor B: Chuck is getting himself in trouble .
PhD E: That 's an interesting idea , actually . For testing the {disfmarker} Yeah . Huh !
Grad A: Didn't you say you got these uh HTK 's set up on the new Linux boxes ?
PhD E: That 's right .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor B: Hey !
PhD E: In fact , and {disfmarker} and they 're just t right now they 're installing uh {disfmarker} increasing the memory on that uh {disfmarker} the Linux box .
Professor B: And Chuck is sort of really fishing for how to keep his computer busy ,
Grad A: Right .
Professor B: right ?
PhD E: Yeah . Absinthe .
Professor B: Well , you know , that 's {disfmarker}
PhD E: Absinthe . We 've got five processors on that .
Grad A: Oh yeah .
Professor B: that 's {disfmarker} yeah , that 's a good thing
Grad A: That 's right .
Professor B: because then y you just write the " do " - loops and then you pretend that you are working while you are sort of {disfmarker} you c you can go fishing .
PhD E: And two gigs of memory .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: Pretend , yeah .
PhD E: Exactly . Yeah .
PhD D: Go fishing .
PhD E: See how many cycles we used ?
Professor B: Yeah . Then you are sort of in this mode like all of those ARPA people are , right ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: Uh , since it is on the record , I can't say uh which company it was , but it was reported to me that uh somebody visited a company and during a {disfmarker} d during a discussion , there was this guy who was always hitting the carriage returns uh on a computer .
PhD E: Uh - huh .
Professor B: So after two hours uh the visitor said " wh why are you hitting this carriage return ? " And he said " well you know , we are being paid by a computer ty I mean we are {disfmarker} we have a government contract . And they pay us by {disfmarker} by amount of computer time we use . " It was in old days when there were uh {disfmarker} of PDP - eights and that sort of thing .
PhD E: Oh , my gosh ! So he had to make it look like {disfmarker}
Professor B: Because so they had a {disfmarker} they literally had to c monitor at the time {disfmarker} at the time on a computer how much time is being spent I {disfmarker} i i or on {disfmarker} on this particular project .
PhD E: Yeah . How {disfmarker} Idle time .
Grad A: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: Nobody was looking even at what was coming out .
PhD E: Have you ever seen those little um {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} it 's this thing that 's the shape of a bird and it has a red ball and its beak dips into the water ?
Professor B: Yeah , I know , right .
PhD E: So {vocalsound} if you could hook that up so it hit the keyboard {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
PhD E: That 's an interesting experiment .
Professor B: It would be similar {disfmarker} similar to {disfmarker} I knew some people who were uh that was in old Communist uh Czechoslovakia , right ? so we were watching for American airplanes , coming to spy on {disfmarker} on uh {disfmarker} on us at the time ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: so there were three guys uh uh stationed in the middle of the woods on one l lonely uh watching tower , pretty much spending a year and a half there because there was this service right ? And so they {disfmarker} very quickly they made friends with local girls and local people in the village
PhD E: Ugh !
Professor B: and {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: and so but they {disfmarker} there was one plane flying over s always uh uh above , and so that was the only work which they had . They {disfmarker} like four in the afternoon they had to report there was a plane from Prague to Brno Basically f flying there ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: so they f very q f first thing was that they would always run back and {disfmarker} and at four o ' clock and {disfmarker} and quickly make a call , " this plane is uh uh passing " then a second thing was that they {disfmarker} they took the line from this u u post to uh uh a local pub . And they were calling from the pub . And they {disfmarker} but third thing which they made , and when they screwed up , they {disfmarker} finally they had to p the {disfmarker} the p the pub owner to make these phone calls because they didn't even bother to be there anymore . And one day there was {disfmarker} there was no plane . At least they were sort of smart enough that they looked if the plane is flying there , right ? And the pub owner says " oh my {disfmarker} four o ' clock , OK , quickly p pick up the phone , call that there 's a plane flying . "
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: There was no plane for some reason ,
PhD E: And there wasn't ?
Professor B: it was downed , or {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} so they got in trouble . But . {vocalsound} But uh .
PhD E: Huh ! Well that 's {disfmarker} that 's a really i
Professor B: So . So . Yeah .
PhD E: That wouldn't be too difficult to try .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: Maybe I could set that up .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: And we 'll just {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well , at least go test the s test the uh assumption about C - C - one I mean to begin with . But then of course one can then think about some predictable result to change all of them .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: It 's just like we used to do these uh {disfmarker} these uh {disfmarker} um the {disfmarker} the uh distance measures . It might be that uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah , so the first set of uh variance weighting vectors would be just you know one {disfmarker} modifying one and leaving the others the same .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah . Maybe .
PhD E: And {disfmarker} and do that for each one .
Professor B: Because you see , I mean , what is happening here in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in such a model is that it 's {disfmarker} tells you yeah what has a low variance uh is uh {disfmarker} is uh {disfmarker} is more reliable ,
PhD E: That would be one set of experiment {disfmarker}
Professor B: right ? How do we {disfmarker}
PhD E: Wh - yeah , when the data matches that , then you get really {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah . Right .
Professor B: How do we know , especially when it comes to noise ?
PhD E: But there could just naturally be low variance .
Professor B: Yeah ?
PhD E: Because I {disfmarker} Like , I 've noticed in the higher cepstral coefficients , the numbers seem to get smaller , right ? So d
PhD C: They {disfmarker} t
PhD E: I mean , just naturally .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah , th that 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: They have smaller means , also . Uh .
PhD E: Yeah . Exactly . And so it seems like they 're already sort of compressed .
PhD C: Uh - huh .
PhD E: The range {pause} of values .
Professor B: Yeah that 's why uh people used these lifters were inverse variance weighting lifters basically that makes uh uh Euclidean distance more like uh Mahalanobis distance with a diagonal covariance when you knew what all the variances were over the old data .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Hmm .
Professor B: What they would do is that they would weight each coefficient by inverse of the variance . Turns out that uh the variance decreases at least at fast , I believe , as the index of the cepstral coefficients . I think you can show that uh uh analytically .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So typically what happens is that you {disfmarker} you need to weight the {disfmarker} uh weight the higher coefficients more than uh the lower coefficients .
PhD E: Hmm . Mm - hmm . Hmm .
Professor B: So .
PhD C: Mmm .
PhD E:
Professor B: When {disfmarker} Yeah . When we talked about Aurora still I wanted to m make a plea {disfmarker} uh encourage for uh more communication between {disfmarker} between uh {pause} uh different uh parts of the distributed uh {pause} uh center . Uh even when there is absolutely nothing to {disfmarker} to s to say but the weather is good in Ore - in {disfmarker} in Berkeley . I 'm sure that it 's being appreciated in Oregon and maybe it will generate similar responses down here , like , uh {disfmarker}
PhD C: We can set up a webcam maybe .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor B: What {disfmarker} you know , nowadays , yeah . It 's actually do - able , almost .
PhD E: Is the um {disfmarker} if we mail to " Aurora - inhouse " , does that go up to you guys also ?
Professor B: I don't think so . No .
PhD C: No .
PhD E: OK .
Professor B: So we should do that .
PhD E: So i What is it {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor B: We should definitely set up {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah we sh Do we have a mailing list that includes uh the OGI people ?
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Uh no . We don't have .
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD E: Oh ! Maybe we should set that up . That would make it much easier .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , that would make it easier .
PhD E: So maybe just call it " Aurora " or something that would {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah . And then we also can send the {disfmarker} the dis to the same address right , and it goes to everybody
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: OK . Maybe we can set that up .
Professor B: Because what 's happening naturally in research , I know , is that people essentially start working on something and they don't want to be much bothered , right ? but what the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} then the danger is in a group like this , is that two people are working on the same thing and i c of course both of them come with the s very good solution , but it could have been done somehow in half of the effort or something .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Oh , there 's another thing which I wanted to uh uh report . Lucash , I think , uh wrote the software for this Aurora - two system . reasonably uh good one , because he 's doing it for Intel , but I trust that we have uh rights to uh use it uh or distribute it and everything . Cuz Intel 's intentions originally was to distribute it free of charge anyways .
PhD E: Hmm !
Professor B: u s And so {disfmarker} so uh we {disfmarker} we will make sure that at least you can see the software and if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it is of any use . Just uh {disfmarker}
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: It might be a reasonable point for p perhaps uh start converging .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Because Morgan 's point is that {disfmarker} He is an experienced guy . He says " well you know it 's very difficult to collaborate if you are working with supposedly the same thing , in quotes , except which is not s is not the same .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Which {disfmarker} which uh uh one is using that set of hurdles , another one set {disfmarker} is using another set of hurdles . So . And {disfmarker} And then it 's difficult to c compare .
PhD C: What about Harry ? Uh . We received a mail last week and you are starting to {disfmarker} to do some experiments .
Professor B: He got the {disfmarker} he got the software . Yeah . They sent the release .
PhD C: And use this Intel version .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
PhD C: Hmm .
Professor B: Yeah because Intel paid us uh should I say on a microphone ? uh some amount of money , not much . Not much I can say on a microphone . Much less then we should have gotten {vocalsound} for this amount of work . And they wanted uh to {disfmarker} to have software so that they can also play with it , which means that it has to be in a certain environment {disfmarker}
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: they use actu actually some Intel libraries , but in the process , Lucash just rewrote the whole thing because he figured rather than trying to f make sense uh of uh {disfmarker} including ICSI software uh not for training on the nets
PhD E: Hmm .
Grad A: Oh .
Professor B: but I think he rewrote the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} or so maybe somehow reused over the parts of the thing so that {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} the whole thing , including MLP , trained MLP is one piece of uh software .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Wow !
Professor B: Is it useful ?
Grad A: Ye - Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah ?
Grad A: I mean , I remember when we were trying to put together all the ICSI software for the submission .
Professor B: Or {disfmarker} That 's what he was saying , right . He said that it was like {disfmarker} it was like just so many libraries and nobody knew what was used when , and {disfmarker} and so that 's where he started and that 's where he realized that it needs to be {disfmarker} needs to be uh uh at least cleaned up ,
Grad A: Yeah .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and so I think it {disfmarker} this is available .
Grad A: Hmm .
Professor B: So {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah . Well , the {disfmarker} the only thing I would check is if he {disfmarker} does he use Intel math libraries ,
Professor B: uh e ev
PhD C: because if it 's the case , it 's maybe not so easy to use it on another architecture .
Professor B: n not maybe {disfmarker} Maybe not in a first {disfmarker} maybe not in a first ap approximation because I think he started first just with a plain C {disfmarker} C or C - plus - plus or something before {disfmarker}
PhD C: Ah yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I {disfmarker} I can check on that . Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: And uh in {disfmarker} otherwise the Intel libraries , I think they are available free of f freely . But they may be running only on {disfmarker} on uh {disfmarker} on uh Windows .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Or on {disfmarker} on the {disfmarker}
PhD C: On Intel architecture maybe .
Professor B: Yeah , on Intel architecture , may not run in SUN .
PhD C: I 'm {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: That is p that is {disfmarker} that is possible . That 's why Intel of course is distributing it ,
PhD C: Well .
Professor B: right ? Or {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah . Well there are {disfmarker} at least there are optimized version for their architecture .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: I don't know . I never checked carefully these sorts of {disfmarker}
Professor B: I know there was some issues that initially of course we d do all the development on Linux but we use {disfmarker} we don't have {disfmarker} we have only three uh uh uh uh s SUNs and we have them only because they have a SPERT board in . Otherwise {disfmarker} otherwise we t almost exclusively are working with uh PC 's now , with Intel . In that way Intel succeeded with us , because they gave us too many good machines for very little money or nothing .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: So . So . So we run everything on Intel .
PhD E: Wow !
Professor B: And {disfmarker}
PhD E: Hmm . Does anybody have anything else ? to {disfmarker} Shall we read some digits ?
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Yes . I have to take my glasses {disfmarker}
PhD E: So . Hynek , I don't know if you 've ever done this .
Professor B: No .
PhD E: The way that it works is each person goes around in turn , {comment} and uh you say the transcript number and then you read the digits , the {disfmarker} the strings of numbers as individual digits .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: So you don't say " eight hundred and fifty " , you say " eight five oh " , and so forth .
Professor B: OK . OK . So can {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} can I t maybe start then ?
PhD E: Um . Sure .
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Grad F: OK .
PhD C: Adam , what is the mike that , uh , Jeremy 's wearing ?
Grad F: It 's the ear - plug mike .
Postdoc A: Ear - plug .
PhD E: That 's good .
PhD C: Is that a wireless , or {disfmarker} ? Oh .
Grad F: No .
Grad G: It 's wired .
Professor B: Oh !
Postdoc A: Is that {disfmarker} Does that mean you can't hear anything during the meeting ?
Grad D: It 's old - school .
Grad F: Huh ? What ? Huh ?
Professor B: Should we , uh , close the door , maybe ?
Grad F: It {disfmarker} it 's a fairly good mike , actually .
Professor B: So it 's {disfmarker} Yeah . Huh .
Grad F: Well , I shouldn't say it 's a good mike . All I really know is that the signal level is OK . I don't know if it 's a {disfmarker} the quality .
Professor B: Well , that 's a
Grad F: Ugh ! So I didn't send out agenda items because until five minutes ago we only had one agenda item and now we have two . So . {vocalsound} And , uh .
Professor B: OK . So , just to repeat the thing bef that we said last week , it was there 's this suggestion of alternating weeks on {vocalsound} more , uh , automatic speech recognition related or not ? Was that sort of {pause} the division ?
Grad F: Right .
Professor B: So which week are we in ?
Grad F: Well {disfmarker} We haven't really started , but I thought we more {disfmarker} we more or less did Meeting Recorder stuff last week , so I thought we could do , uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: I thought we had a thing about speech recognition last week too .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad F: But I figure also if they 're short agenda items , we could also do a little bit of each .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad F: So . I seem to be having difficulty getting this adjusted . Here we go .
Professor B: OK .
Grad F: So , uh , as most of you should know , I did send out the consent form thingies and , uh , so far no one has made any {disfmarker} Ach ! {comment} {comment} any comments on them . So , no on no one has bleeped out anything .
Professor B: Um . Yeah .
Grad F: So . I don't expect anyone to . But .
Professor B: Um . {vocalsound} So , w what follows ? At some point y you go around and get people to sign something ?
Grad F: No . We had spoken w about this before
Professor B: Yeah , but I 've forgotten .
Grad F: and we had decided that they have {disfmarker} they only needed to sign once . And the agreement that they already signed simply said that we would give them an opportunity . So as long as we do that , we 're covered .
Professor B: And how long of an opportunity did you tell them ?
Grad F: Uh , July fifteenth .
Professor B: July fifteenth . Oh , so they have a plenty of time , and y
Grad F: Yep .
Professor B: Given that it 's that long , um , um {disfmarker} Why was that date chosen ? You just felt you wanted to {disfmarker} ?
Grad F: Jane told me July fifteenth . So , that 's what I set it .
Postdoc A: Oh . I just meant that that was {pause} the release date that you had on the {pause} data .
Professor B: Oh , OK .
Grad F: Oh . I {disfmarker} I didn't understand that there was something specific .
Postdoc A: I , uh {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker}
Grad F: You {disfmarker} y you had {disfmarker}
Professor B: I don't {disfmarker}
Grad F: I had heard July fifteenth , so that 's what I put .
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: No , the only {disfmarker} th the only {pause} mention I recall about that was just that July fifteenth or so is when {vocalsound} this meeting starts .
Grad F: So .
Postdoc A: That 's right . That 's why .
Professor B: Oh , I see .
Postdoc A: You said you wanted it to be available then .
Professor B: OK .
Postdoc A: I didn't mean it to be the hard deadline .
Professor B: Right .
Postdoc A: It 's fine with me if it is , or we cou But I thought it might be good to remind people two weeks prior to that
Professor B: w
Postdoc A: in case , uh {disfmarker} you know , " by the way {pause} this is your last {disfmarker} "
Professor B: Right .
Postdoc A: Uh . Yeah .
Professor B: We probably should have talked about it , cuz i because if we wanna be able to give it to people July fifteenth , if somebody 's gonna come back and say " OK , I don't want this and this and this used " , uh , clearly we need some time to respond to that . Right ?
Grad F: Yeah . As I said , we {disfmarker} I just got one date
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD H: Damn !
Grad F: and that 's the one I used .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad F: So . But I can send a follow - up . I mean , it 's almost all us . I mean the people who are in the meeti this meeting was , uh , these {disfmarker} the meetings that {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} are in set one .
PhD C: Was my {disfmarker} was my response OK ?
Postdoc A: That 's right .
PhD C: I just wrote you {disfmarker} replied to the email saying they 're all fine .
Grad F: Right . I mean , that 's fine .
PhD C: OK , good .
Grad F: I {disfmarker} we don't {disfmarker} My understanding of what we {pause} had agreed upon when we had spoken about this months ago was that , uh , we don't actually need a reply .
PhD C: That makes it easy .
Grad F: We just need to tell them that they can do it if they want .
Professor B: OK . I just didn't remember , but {disfmarker}
Grad F: And so no reply is no changes .
Postdoc A: And he 's got it so that the default thing you see when you look at the page is " OK " .
Professor B: OK .
Postdoc A: So that 's very clear all the way down the page , " OK " . And they have two options they can change it to . One of them is {pause} " censor " , and the other one is " incorrect " . Is it {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} your word is " incorrect " ?
Grad F: Right .
Postdoc A: Which means also we get feedback on {pause} if {pause} um , there 's something that they w that needs to be {pause} adjusted , because , I mean , these are very highly technical things . I mean , it 's an added , uh , level of checking on the accuracy of the transcription , as I see it . But in any case , people can agree to things that are wrong .
Grad F: Well {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: So .
Grad F: Yeah . The reason I did that it was just so that people would not censor {disfmarker} not ask to have stuff removed because it was transcribed incorrectly ,
Postdoc A: And the reason I liked it was because {disfmarker}
Grad F: as opposed to , uh {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: was because it , um {disfmarker} it gives them the option of , uh , being able to correct it .
Grad F: Right .
Postdoc A: Approve it and correct it . And {pause} um . So , you have {pause} it nicely set up so they email you and , uh {disfmarker}
Grad F: When they submit the form , it gets processed and emailed to me .
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . And I wanted to say the meetings that are involved in that set are Robustness and Meeting Recorder .
Grad F: So .
Postdoc A: The German ones will be ready for next week . Those are three {disfmarker} three of those . A different set of people . And we can impose {disfmarker}
PhD C: The German ones ?
Postdoc A: Uh , well .
PhD H: Yeah . Those {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: NSA .
Postdoc A: OK . I spoke loosely . The {disfmarker} the German , French {disfmarker} Sorry , the German , {vocalsound} Dutch , and Spanish ones .
PhD E: Spanish . Yeah .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Oh , those are the NSA meetings ?
PhD E: The non - native {disfmarker}
PhD H: Those are {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: Yeah . Uh - huh .
Professor B: German , Dutch , Swiss and Spanish .
PhD C: Oh , oh ! OK .
PhD E: The all non - native {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's r
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
PhD H: Uh - huh .
PhD C: OK . I 'd {disfmarker} I d
Postdoc A: Yeah . {pause} It 's the other group .
Professor B: I It was the network {disfmarker} network services group .
PhD C: OK .
Postdoc A: Uh - huh . Yeah , exactly . Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
Postdoc A: I didn't mean to {pause} isolate them .
Professor B: Otherwise known as the German , Dutch , and Spanish .
Postdoc A: Yeah . Sorry . It was {disfmarker} it was not the best characterization .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc A: But what {disfmarker} {vocalsound} what I meant to say was that it 's the other group that 's not {disfmarker} n no m no overlap with our present members . And then maybe it 'd be good to set an explicit deadline , something like {pause} a week {pause} before that , uh , J July fifteenth date , or two weeks before .
Professor B: I mean , I would suggest we discuss {disfmarker} I mean , if we 're going to have a policy on it , that we discuss the length of time that we want to give people ,
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: so that we have a uniform thing . So , tha that 's a month , which is fine . I mean , it seems {disfmarker}
PhD C: Twelve hours .
Grad F: Well , the only thing I said in the email is that {pause} the data is going to be released on the fifteenth . I didn't give any other deadline .
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: So my feeling is if someone after the fifteenth says , " wow I suddenly found something " , we 'll delete it from our record . We just won't delete it from whatever 's already been released .
Postdoc A: Hmm . That 's a little bit difficult .
Grad F: What else can we do ?
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Grad F: If someone says " hey , look , I {pause} found something in this meeting and {pause} it 's libelous and I want it removed " . What can we do ?
Postdoc A: Well . {pause} That 's true .
Grad F: We have to remove it .
Postdoc A: I {disfmarker} I agree with that part , but I think that it would {disfmarker} it , uh {disfmarker} we need to have , uh , a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a message to them very clearly that {vocalsound} beyond this date , you can't make additional changes .
Professor B: I mean , um , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i I think that somebody might {pause} request something even though we say that . But I think it 's good to at least start some place like that .
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm . Good .
Professor B: So if we agreed , {vocalsound} OK , how long is a reasonable amount of time for people to have {disfmarker} if we say two weeks , or if we say a month , I think we should just say that {disfmarker} say that , you know , i a as {pause} um , {vocalsound} " per the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the , uh , page you signed , you have the ability to look over this stuff " and so forth " and , uh , because we w " these , uh {disfmarker} I would {disfmarker} I would imagine some sort of generic thing that would say " because we , uh , will continually be making these things available {vocalsound} to other researchers , uh , this can't be open - ended and so , uh , uh , please give us back your response within this am you know , within this amount of time " , whatever time we agree upon .
Grad F: Well , did you read the email and look at the pages I sent ?
Professor B: Did I ? No , I haven't yet . No , just {disfmarker}
Grad F: No . OK , well why don't you do that and then make comments on what you want me to change ?
Professor B: No , no . I 'm not saying that you should change anything . I I 'm {disfmarker} what I 'm {disfmarker} what I 'm {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I 'm trying to spark a discussion hopefully among people who have read it so that {disfmarker} that you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you can , uh , decide on something .
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So I 'm not telling you what to decide .
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I 'm just saying you should decide something ,
Postdoc A: OK .
Professor B: and then {disfmarker}
Grad F: I already did decide something , and that 's what 's in the email .
Postdoc A: Yeah , yeah . OK , so {disfmarker}
Grad F: And if you disagree with it , why don't you read it and give me comments on it ?
Postdoc A: Yeah . Well {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that there 's one missing line .
Professor B: Well , the one thing that I did read and that you just repeated to me {pause} was that you gave the specific date of July fifteenth .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And you also just said that the reason you said that was because someone said it to you . So what I 'm telling you {pause} is that what you should do is come up with a length of time that you guys think is enough
Grad F: Right .
Professor B: and you should use that rather than {pause} this date that you just got from somewhere . That 's all I 'm saying .
Grad F: OK .
Professor B: OK ?
Postdoc A: I ha I have one question . This is in the summer period and presumably people may be out of town . But we can make the assumption , can't we ? that , um , they will be receiving email , uh , most of the month . Right ? Because if someone {disfmarker}
Professor B: It {disfmarker} well , it {disfmarker} well , you 're right . Sometimes somebody will be {pause} away and , uh , you know , there 's , uh {disfmarker} for any length of time that you {vocalsound} uh , choose {pause} there is some person sometime who will not {pause} end up reading it .
Postdoc A: OK .
Professor B: That 's {disfmarker} it 's , you know , just a certain risk to take .
PhD H: S so maybe when {disfmarker} Am I on , by the way ?
Grad F: I don't know . You should be .
PhD H: Oh . Hello ? Hello ?
Grad F: You should be channel B .
PhD H: Oh , OK . Alright . So . The , um {disfmarker} Maybe we should say in {disfmarker} w you know , when the whole thing starts , when they sign the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the agreement {vocalsound} that {disfmarker} you know , specify exactly uh , what , you know , how {disfmarker} how they will be contacted and they can , you know {disfmarker} they can be asked to give a phone number and an email address , or both . And , um , then {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: We did that , I {disfmarker} I believe .
PhD H: Right .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD H: So . {vocalsound} A And , then , you know , say very clearly that if they don't {disfmarker} if we don't hear from them , you know , as Morgan suggested , by a certain time or after a certain {vocalsound} period after we contact them {vocalsound} that is implicitly giving their agreement .
Grad F: Well , they 've already signed a form .
Postdoc A: And the form says {disfmarker}
PhD E: And nobody {disfmarker} nobody really reads it anyway .
PhD H: Right .
Grad F: So . And the s and the form was approved by Human Subjects ,
PhD H: Says that . Right .
Postdoc A: Uh , the f
PhD H: Well , if that 's i tha if that 's already {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}
Grad F: so , eh , that 's gonna be a little hard to modify .
Postdoc A: Well , the form {disfmarker} Well , the form doesn't say , if {disfmarker} uh , you know , " if you don't respond by X number of days or X number of weeks {disfmarker} "
PhD H: I see . Uh {disfmarker} Oh , OK . So what does it say about the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the process of {disfmarker} of , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} y the review process ?
Postdoc A: It doesn't have a time limit . That you 'll be provided access to the transcripts and then , uh , allowed to {pause} remove things that you 'd like to remove , before it goes to the general {disfmarker} uh , larger audience .
PhD H: Oh , OK . Hmm . Right .
Grad F: Here .
Postdoc A: There you go .
Grad F: You can read what you already signed .
PhD H: Oh .
PhD E: I guess when I {pause} read it , um {disfmarker}
PhD H: OK .
PhD E: I 'm not as diligent as Chuck , but I had the feeling I should probably respond and tell Adam , like , " I got this and I will do it by this date , and if you don't hear from me by then {disfmarker} " You know , in other words responding to your email {pause} once , right away , saying " as soon as you get this could you please respond . "
Grad F: Right .
PhD E: And then if you {disfmarker} if the person thinks they 'll need more time because they 're out of town or whatever , they can tell you at that point ? Because {disfmarker}
Grad F: Oh , I just {disfmarker} I didn't wanna do that , because I don't wanna have a discussion with every person {pause} if I can avoid it .
PhD E: Well , it 's {disfmarker}
Grad F: So what I wanted to do was just send it out and say " on the fifteenth , the data is released ,
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: if you wanna do something about it , do something about it , but that 's it " .
Postdoc A: I {disfmarker} I kind of like this .
PhD E: Well {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: Yeah .
PhD E: OK . So , we 're assuming that {disfmarker}
PhD H: Well , that 's {disfmarker} that would be great if {disfmarker} but you should probably have a {pause} legal person look at this and {pause} make sure it 's OK . Because if you {disfmarker} if you , uh , do this {vocalsound} and you {disfmarker} then there 's a dispute later and , uh , some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , someone who understands these matters concludes that they didn't have , uh , you know , enough opportunity to actually {vocalsound} exercise their {disfmarker} their right {disfmarker}
PhD E: Or they {disfmarker} they might never have gotten the email , because although they signed this , they don't know by which date to expect your email . And so {pause} someone whose machine is down or whatever {disfmarker} I mean , we have no {disfmarker}
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: in internally we know that people are there ,
Grad F: Well , OK . l Let me {disfmarker} Let me reverse this .
PhD E: but we have no confirmation that they got the mail .
Grad F: So let 's say someone {disfmarker} I send this out , and someone doesn't respond . Do we delete every meeting that they were in ?
PhD E: Well , then {disfmarker}
Grad F: I don't think so .
PhD E: It {disfmarker} we 're hoping that doesn't happen ,
PhD H: No .
PhD E: but that 's why there 's such a thing as registered mail
Grad F: That will happen .
PhD E: or {disfmarker}
PhD H: That will happen .
PhD E: Right .
Grad F: That will absolutely happen . Because people don't read their email , or they 'll read and say " I don't care about that , I 'm not gonna delete anything " and they don just won't reply to it .
PhD H: Maybe {disfmarker} uh , do we have mailing addresses for these people ?
Grad F: No . We have what they put on the speaker form ,
PhD H: No .
Postdoc A: Well {disfmarker} {comment} {vocalsound} Most {disfmarker}
Grad F: which was just generic contact information .
PhD H: Oh .
Postdoc A: But the ones that we 're dealing with now are all local ,
PhD H: Well , then {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: except the ones who {disfmarker} I mean , we {disfmarker} we 're totally in contact with all the ones in those two groups .
PhD H: Mmm . OK .
Postdoc A: So maybe , uh , I {disfmarker} you know , that 's not that many people and if I {disfmarker} if , uh {disfmarker} i i there is an advantage to having them admit {disfmarker} and if I can help with {disfmarker} with processing that , I will . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} there is an advantage to having them be on record as having received the mail and indicating {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yeah . I mean I thought we had discussed this , like , a year ago .
Postdoc A: Yes , we did .
Grad F: And so it seems like this is a little odd for it to be coming up yet again .
Postdoc A: You 're right . Well , I {disfmarker} you know . But sometimes {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well , we {disfmarker} we haven't experienced it before .
Grad F: So .
Postdoc A: That 's right .
Professor B: Right ? So {disfmarker}
PhD E: You 'll either wonder {pause} at the beginning or you 'll wonder at the end .
Postdoc A: Need to get it right .
PhD E: I mean , there 's no way to get around {disfmarker} I It 's pretty much the same am amount of work except for an additional email just saying they got the email .
Postdoc A: Yeah .
PhD E: And maybe it 's better legally to wonder before {disfmarker} you know , a little bit earlier than {disfmarker}
Grad F: Well {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: It 's much easier to explain {pause} this way .
Grad F: OK . Well , why don't you talk {pause} t
Postdoc A: T t to have it on record .
Grad F: Morgan , can you talk to our lawyer about it , and find out what the status is on this ? Cuz I don't wanna do something that we don't need to .
Postdoc A: Yeah , but w Mmm .
Grad F: Because what {disfmarker} I 'm telling you , people won't respond to the email . No matter what you do , you there 're gonna be people who {pause} you 're gonna have to make a lot of effort to get in contact with .
Postdoc A: Well , then we make the effort .
Grad D: I mean , i it 's k
Grad F: And do we want to spend that effort ?
PhD H: Hmm .
Postdoc A: We make the effort .
Grad D: It 's kind of like signing up for a mailing list . They have opt in and opt out . And there are two different ways . I mean , and either way works probably , I mean .
Postdoc A: Except I really think in this case {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm agr I agree with Liz , that we need to be {pause} in the clear and not have to after the fact say " oh , but I assumed " , and " oh , I 'm sorry that your email address was just accumulating mail without notifying you " , you know .
Professor B: If this is a purely administrative task , we can actually have administration do it .
Postdoc A: Oh , excellent .
Professor B: But the thing is that , you know , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , without going through a whole expensive thing with our lawyers , {vocalsound} from my previous conversations with them , my {disfmarker} my sense very {pause} much is that we would want something on record {pause} as indicating that they actually were aware of this .
Postdoc A: Yes .
Grad F: Well , we had talked about this before
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: and I thought that we had even gone by the lawyers asking about that and they said you have to s they 've already signed away the f with that form {disfmarker} that they 've already signed once .
Postdoc A: I don't remember that this issue of {pause} the time period allowed for response was ever covered .
Grad F: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah . We never really talked about that .
Grad F: OK .
PhD E: Or the date at which they would be receiving the email from you .
Postdoc A: Or {disfmarker} or how they would indicate {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: They probably forgot all about it .
Professor B: We certainly didn't talk , uh , about {disfmarker} with them at all about , uh , the manner of them being {disfmarker} {vocalsound} made the , uh , uh , materials available .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD H: We do it like with these {disfmarker}
Professor B: That was something that was sort of just within our implementation .
Grad F: OK .
PhD H: We can use it {disfmarker} we can use a {disfmarker} a ploy like they use to , um {disfmarker} you know , that when they serve , like {disfmarker} uh , uh , uh {disfmarker} {comment} uh , you know , like dead - beat dads , they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they make it look like they won something in the lottery and then they open the envelope
Grad D: And they 're served .
PhD H: and that {disfmarker} Right ? Because {disfmarker} and then the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing is served . So you just make it , you know , " oh , you won {disfmarker} you know , go to this web site and you 've , uh {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} "
PhD E: That 's why you never open these things that come in the mail .
Postdoc A: That one .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad F: Well , it 's just , we 've gone from one extreme to the other , where at one point , a few months ago , Morgan was {disfmarker} you were saying let 's not do anything ,
PhD H: Right . {vocalsound} Right . No , it I {disfmarker} it might {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: Well , it doesn't matter .
PhD H: i i it {disfmarker} it might well be the case {disfmarker}
Grad F: and now we 're {disfmarker} we 're saying we have to follow up each person and get a signature ?
PhD H: it might {disfmarker} Right .
Grad F: I mean , what are we gonna doing here ?
PhD H: It might well be the case that {disfmarker} that this is perfectly {disfmarker} you know , this is enough to give us a basis t to just , eh , assume their consent if they don't reply .
Professor B: Well .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
PhD H: But , I 'm not {disfmarker} you know , me not being a lawyer , I wouldn't just wanna do that without {pause} having the {disfmarker} the expert , uh , opinion on that .
Postdoc A: And how many people ? Al - altogether we 've got twenty people . These people are people who read their email almost all the time .
Grad F: Then I think we had better find out , so that we can find a {disfmarker}
PhD H: Yeah .
Professor B: Let me look at this again .
Grad F: Right .
Postdoc A: I {disfmarker} I really don't see that it 's a problem . I {disfmarker} I think that it 's a common courtesy to ask them {disfmarker} uh , to expect for them to , uh , be able to have @ @ {comment} us try to contact them ,
Grad F: For {disfmarker} for th
Postdoc A: u just in case they hadn't gotten their email . I think they 'd appreciate it .
Professor B: Yeah . My {disfmarker} Adam , my {disfmarker} my view before was about {pause} the nature of what was {disfmarker} of the presentation ,
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: of {disfmarker} of how {pause} my {disfmarker} my {disfmarker} the things that we 're questioning were along the lines of how easy {disfmarker} uh , h how m how much implication would there be that it 's likely you 're going to be changing something , as opposed to {disfmarker}
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: That was the kind of dispute I was making before .
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm . I remember that .
Professor B: But , um , the attorneys , I {disfmarker} uh , I can guarantee you , the attorneys will always come back with {disfmarker} and we have to decide how stringent we want to be in these things , but they will always come back with saying {vocalsound} that , um , you need to {disfmarker} you want to have someth some paper trail or {disfmarker} which includes electronic trail {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that they have , uh , in fact {pause} O K 'd it .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , um , I think that if you f i if {pause} we send the email as you have and if there 's half the people , say , who don't respond {pause} at all by , you know , some period of time , {vocalsound} we can just make a list of these people and hand it to , uh {disfmarker} you know , just give it to me and I 'll hand it to administrative staff or whatever ,
Grad F: Right .
Professor B: and they 'll just call them up and say , you know , " have you {disfmarker} Is {disfmarker} is this OK ? And would you please mail {disfmarker} you know , mail Adam that it is , if i if it , you know , is or not . " So , you know , we can {disfmarker} we can do that .
PhD E: The other thing that there 's a psychological effect that {disfmarker} at least for most people , that if they 've responded to your email saying " yes , I will do it " or " yes , I got your email " , they 're more likely to actually do it {comment} {pause} later {pause} than to just ignore it .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: And of course we don't want them to bleep things out , but it {disfmarker} it 's a little bit better if we 're getting the {disfmarker} their , uh , final response , once they 've answered you once than if they never answer you 'd {comment} at al at all . That 's how these mailing houses work . So , I mean , it 's not completely lost work because it might benefit us in terms of getting {pause} responses .
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: You know , an official OK from somebody {pause} is better than no answer , even if they responded that they got your email . And they 're probably more likely to do that once they 've responded that they got the email .
Postdoc A: I also think they 'd just simply appreciate it . I think it 's a good {disfmarker} a good way of {disfmarker} of fostering goodwill among our subjects . Well , our participants .
Professor B: I think the main thing is {disfmarker} I mean , what lawyers do is they always look at worst cases .
Grad F: Sending lots of spam .
Professor B: So they s so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} Tha - that 's what they 're paid to do .
Grad F: Yep .
Professor B: And so , {vocalsound} it is certainly possible that , uh , somebody 's server would be down or something and they wouldn't actually hear from us , and then they find this thing is in there and we 've already distributed it to someone . So , {vocalsound} what it says in there , in fact , is that they will be given an opportunity to blah - blah - blah ,
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: but if in fact {disfmarker} if we sent them something or we thought we sent them something but they didn't actually receive it for some reason , {vocalsound} um , then we haven't given them that .
Grad F: Well , so how far do we have to go ? Do we need to get someone 's signature ? Or , is email enough ?
Professor B: I i i em email is enough .
Grad F: Do we have to have it notarized ? I mean {disfmarker} OK .
Professor B: Yeah . I mean , I 've been through this {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm not a lawyer , but I 've been through these things a f things f like this a few times with lawyers now
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: so I {disfmarker} I {vocalsound} I I 'm pretty comfortable with that .
PhD C: Do you track , um , when people log in to look at the {disfmarker} ?
Grad F: Uh . If they submit the form , I get it .
PhD C: Uh - huh .
Grad F: If they don't submit the form , it goes in the general web log . But that 's not sufficient .
PhD C: Hmm .
Grad F: Right ? Cuz if someone just visits the web site that doesn't {pause} imply anything in particular .
PhD C: Except that you know they got the mail .
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm . That 's right .
Grad F: Right .
Postdoc A: I {disfmarker} I could get you on the notify list if you want me to .
Grad F: I 'm already on it .
Postdoc A: For that directory ? OK , great .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So again , hopefully , um , this shouldn't be quite as odious a problem either way , uh , in any of the extremes we 've talked about because {vocalsound} uh , we 're talking a pretty small {pause} number of people .
Grad F: W For this set , I 'm not worried , because {pause} we basically know everyone on it .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc A: Hmm .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: You know , they 're all more or less here or it 's {disfmarker} it 's Eric and Dan and so on . But for some of the others , you 're talking about visitors who are {pause} gone from ICSI , whose email addresses may or may not work ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc A: Oh .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: and {disfmarker} So what are we gonna do when we run into someone that we can't get in touch with ?
Postdoc A: I don't think , uh {disfmarker} They 're so recent , these visitors .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc A: I {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} they 're also so {disfmarker}
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc A: They 're prominent enough that they 're easy to find through {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean , I {disfmarker} I w I 'll be able to {disfmarker} if you have any trouble finding them , I really think I could find them .
Grad F: Other methods ? OK .
Professor B: Yeah . Cuz it {disfmarker} what it {disfmarker} what it really does promise here is that we will ask their permission . Um , and I think , you know , if you go into a room and close the door and {disfmarker} and ask their permission {vocalsound} and they 're not there , it doesn't seem {comment} that that 's the intent of , uh , meaning here . So .
Grad F: Well , the qu the question is just whether {disfmarker} how active it has to be . I mean , because they {disfmarker} they filled out a contact information and that 's where I 'm sending the information .
Professor B: Right .
Grad F: And so far everyone has done email . There isn't anyone who did , uh , any other contact method .
Professor B: Well , the way ICSI goes , people , uh , who , uh , were here ten years ago still have acc {vocalsound} have forwards to other accounts and so on .
Grad F: Yeah .
Professor B: So it 's unusual that {disfmarker} that they , uh {disfmarker}
Grad F: So my original impression was that that was sufficient , that if they give us contact information and that contact information isn't accurate that {pause} we fulfilled our burden .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: Then they just come back .
PhD C: All my files were still here .
PhD E: Same as us .
Postdoc A: I just {disfmarker}
Professor B: So if we get to a boundary case like that then maybe I will call the attorney about it .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad F: OK .
Professor B: But , you know , hopefully we won't need to .
Postdoc A: I d I just don't think we will . For all the reasons that we 've discussed .
Grad F: Alright .
Professor B: So we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll see if we do or not .
Grad F: Yep . And we 'll see how many people respond to that email .
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Grad F: So far , two people have .
Professor B: Yeah . I think very few people will
Grad F: So .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , you know , people {disfmarker} people see long emails about things that they don't think {vocalsound} is gonna be high priority , they typically , uh , don't {disfmarker} don't read it , or half read it .
Grad F: Right .
Professor B: Cuz people are swamped .
Postdoc A: And actually ,
Professor B: But {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: um , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} didn't anticipate this so I {disfmarker} that 's why I didn't give this comment , and it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} this discussion has made me think it might be nice to have a follow - up email within the next couple of days saying " by the way , you know , we wanna hear back from you by X date and please {disfmarker} " , and then add what Liz said {disfmarker} " please , uh , respond to {disfmarker} please indicate you received this mail . "
Professor B: Uh , or e well , maybe even additionally , uh , um , " Even if you 've decided you have no changes you 'd like to make , if you could tell us that " .
Grad F: Respond to the email . {comment} Yep .
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm . It is the first time through the cycle .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: Right . That would {disfmarker} that would definitely work on me . You know , it makes you feel m like , um , if you were gonna p if you 're predicting that you might not answer , you have a chance now to say that . Whereas , I {disfmarker} I mean , I would be much more likely myself ,
PhD C: And the other th
PhD E: given all my email , t to respond at that point , saying " you know what , I 'm probably not gonna get to it " or whatever , rather than just having seen the email , thinking I might get to it , and never really , {vocalsound} uh , pushing myself to actually do it until it 's too late .
PhD C: Yeah . I was {disfmarker} I was thinking that it also {pause} lets them know that they don't have to go to the page to {pause} accept this .
PhD E: Right . R Right . That 's true .
Professor B: Right .
PhD C: I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Yeah . So that way they could {disfmarker} they can see from that email that if they just write back and say " I got it , no changes " , they 're off the hook .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: They don't have to go to the web page
Professor B: I mean , the other thing I 've learned from dealing with {disfmarker} dealing with people sending in reviews and so forth , uh , is , um , {vocalsound} if you say " you 've got three months to do this review " , {vocalsound} um , people do it , you know , {vocalsound} two and seven eighths months from now .
PhD C: and {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah . That 's true .
Professor B: If you say " you 've got three weeks to do this review " , they do {disfmarker} do it , you know , two and seven eighths weeks from now {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they do the review .
Grad F: Right .
Professor B: And , um {disfmarker} So , if we make it {pause} a little less time , I don't think it 'll be that much {disfmarker}
Grad F: Well , and also if we want it ready by the fifteenth , that means we better give them deadline of the first , if we have any prayer of actually getting everyone to respond in time .
Professor B: There 's the responding part and there 's also what if , uh , I mean , I hope this doesn't happen , what if there are a bunch of deletions that have to get put in and changes ?
Grad F: Right .
Professor B: Then {vocalsound} we actually have to deal with that
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm . Some lead time .
Professor B: if we want it to {disfmarker}
Grad F: Ugh ! Disk space ,
Postdoc A: By the way , has {disfmarker} has Jeremy signed the form ?
Grad F: oh my god ! I hadn't thought about that .
Postdoc A: OK .
Grad F: That for every meeting {disfmarker} any meeting which has any bleeps in it we need yet another copy of .
PhD H: Oh .
PhD C: Just that channel .
Grad D: Can't you just do that channel ?
PhD C: Oh , no . We have to do {disfmarker}
Grad F: No , of course not .
PhD E: Yeah . You have to do all of them ,
Grad F: You need all the channels .
Grad D: Oh .
PhD C: Do you have to do the other close - talking ?
PhD E: as well as all of these .
Grad D: Yeah .
PhD E: You have to do all {disfmarker} You could just do it in that time period , though ,
Grad F: Yes . Absolutely . There 's a lot of cross - talk .
Grad G: Wow .
Postdoc A: Well {disfmarker}
PhD E: but I guess it 's a pain .
Grad F: Well , but you have to copy the whole file .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad F: Right ? Because we 're gonna be releasing the whole file .
PhD E: Yeah . You 're right .
Postdoc A: Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} you know , I think at a certain point , that copy that has the deletions will become the master copy .
Grad F: Yeah . It 's just I hate deleting any data . So I {disfmarker} I don't want {disfmarker} I really would rather make a copy of it , rather than bleep it out
Professor B: Are you del are you bleeping it by adding ?
Grad F: and then {disfmarker} Overlapping . So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's exactly a censor bleep . So what I really think is " bleep "
Professor B: I I I I understand , but is {disfmarker} is it summing signals
Grad F: and then I want to {disfmarker}
Professor B: or do you {pause} delete the old one and put the new one in ?
Grad F: I delete the old one , put the new one in .
Professor B: Oh , OK . Cuz {disfmarker}
Grad F: There 's nothing left of the original signal .
Professor B: Oh . Cuz if you were summing , you could {disfmarker} No . But anyway {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yeah . It would be qui quite easy to get it back again .
Postdoc A: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} And then w I was gonna say also that the they don't have to stay on the system , as you know ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: Then someday we can sell the {pause} unedited versions .
Postdoc A: cuz {disfmarker} cuz the {disfmarker} the ones {disfmarker}
Grad F: Say again ?
Postdoc A: Once it 's been successfully bleeped , can't you rely on the {disfmarker} ?
PhD C: Or {pause} we 'll tell people the frequency of the beep
Professor B: Encrypt it .
PhD C: and then they could subtract the beep out .
Grad D: You can hide it . Yeah .
Postdoc A: Can't you rely on the archiving to preserve the older version ?
PhD H: Oh , yeah .
Grad D: It wouldn't be that hard to hide it .
PhD E: Right . Exactly . I see .
Grad F: Yeah , that 's true . Yeah . Yep , that 's true .
PhD E: See , this is good . I wanted to create some {pause} side conversations in these meetings .
Postdoc A: OK .
Professor B: Yeah . You could encrypt it , you know , with a {disfmarker} with a two hundred bit {disfmarker} {vocalsound} thousand bit , uh {disfmarker}
Grad D: You can use spread spectrum .
PhD C: Uh - huh .
Grad D: Hide it .
PhD E: So {disfmarker}
PhD C: Here we go .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad D: Yeah , there you go .
PhD E: Cuz we don't have enough asides .
PhD H: I have an idea . You reverse the signal ,
Grad D: There you go .
PhD H: so it {disfmarker} it lets people say what they said backwards .
Grad F: Backwards .
Grad D: Then you have , like , subliminal , uh , messages ,
Grad F: But , ha you 've seen the {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} the speech recognition system that reversed very short segments .
PhD H: Yeah .
Grad D: like .
Grad F: Did you read that paper ? It wouldn't work .
PhD H: No .
Grad F: The speech recognizer still works .
PhD E: Yeah . And if you do it backward then {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: That 's cuz they use forward - backward .
PhD E: H - good old HMM .
Grad F: Forward but backward . That 's right .
PhD E: No , it 's backward - forward .
Grad F: Good point . A point . Well , I 'm sorry if I sound a little peeved about this whole thing . It 's just we 've had meeting after meeting after meeting a on this and it seems like we 've never gotten it resolved .
Postdoc A: Hmm .
Professor B: Well , but we never also {disfmarker} we 've also never done it .
PhD E: Uh .
Grad F: So .
Postdoc A: This is the first cycle .
PhD E: If it makes {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yeah .
Postdoc A: There 're bound to be some glitches the first time through .
Professor B: So . {vocalsound} And , uh {disfmarker} and I 'm sorry responding without , uh , having much knowledge , but the thing is , uh , I am , like , one of these people who gets a gazillion mails and {disfmarker} and stuff comes in as
Grad F: Well , and that 's exactly why I did it the way I did it , which is the default is if you do nothing we 're gonna release it .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad F: Because , you know , I have my {pause} stack of emails of to d to be done , that , you know , fifty or sixty long , and the ones at the top I 'm never gonna get to .
Professor B: Right .
Grad F: And , uh {pause} So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}
PhD C: Move them to the bottom .
Professor B: So {disfmarker} so the only thing we 're missing is {disfmarker} is some way to respond to easily to say , uh , " OK , go ahead " or something .
Grad F: Yeah , right . So , i this is gonna mean {disfmarker}
PhD C: Just re - mail them to yourself and then they 're at the bottom .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah .
Postdoc A: Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah . That 's actually definitely a good point . The m email doesn't specify that you can just reply to the email , as op as opposed to going to the form
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .
PhD H: In {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: And it also doesn't give a {disfmarker} a specific {disfmarker} I didn't think of it .
PhD E: Right .
Grad F: and {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: S I think it 's a good idea {disfmarker} an ex explicit time by which this will be considered definite .
Grad F: Yeah , release .
Postdoc A: And {disfmarker} and it has to be a time earlier than that endpoint .
Professor B: Yeah . It 's converging .
Postdoc A: Yeah . That 's right .
PhD H: This {disfmarker} um , I 've seen this recently . Uh , I got email , and it {disfmarker} i if I use a MIME - capable mail reader , it actually says , you know , click on this button to confirm receipt {pause} of the {disfmarker} of the mail .
Postdoc A: Oh , that 's interesting .
Grad D: Hmm .
PhD H: So {disfmarker}
Grad F: You {disfmarker} you can {disfmarker}
Grad D: It 's like certified mail .
Grad F: A lot of mailers support return receipt .
Postdoc A: Could do that .
PhD H: Right .
Grad F: But it doesn't confirm that they 've read it .
PhD H: No , no , no . This is different . This is not {disfmarker} So , I {disfmarker} I know , you can tell , you know , the , uh , mail delivery agent to {disfmarker} to confirm that the mail was delivered to your mailbox .
Postdoc A: Mmm .
Grad F: Right .
PhD H: But {disfmarker} but , no . This was different . Ins - in the mail , there was a {disfmarker}
Grad F: Oh , just a button .
PhD H: uh , th there was a button that when you clicked on it , it would send , uh , you know , a actual acknowledgement to the sender that you had actually looked at the mail .
Grad F: Oh , yeah . Yeah . Unfor - Yeah , we could do that . But I hate that .
PhD H: But it o but it only works for , you know , MIME - capable {disfmarker} you know , if you use Netscape or something like that for your n
Grad F: Yeah .
Professor B: And {disfmarker}
PhD E: You might as well just respond to the mail .
Professor B: And we actually need a third thing .
PhD E: I mean
PhD H: Right .
Professor B: It 's not that you 've looked at it , it 's that you 've looked at it and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and agree with one of the possible actions .
PhD H: No , no . You can do that .
Professor B: Right ?
PhD H: You know , you can put this button anywhere you want ,
Professor B: Oh ? Oh , I see .
PhD H: and you can put it the bottom of the message and say " here , by {disfmarker} you know , by clicking on this , I {disfmarker} I agree {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , you know , I acknowledge {disfmarker} "
Professor B: That i i my first - born children are yours , and {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .
PhD E: Quick question . Are , um {disfmarker}
Grad F: Well , I could put a URL in there without any difficulty and {pause} even pretty simple MIME readers can do that . So .
Postdoc A: But why shouldn't they just {pause} email back ? I don't see there 's a problem .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah . Reply .
PhD H: Right .
Postdoc A: It 's very nice . I {disfmarker} I like the high - tech aspect of it ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Postdoc A: but I think {disfmarker}
PhD H: No , no , no . {vocalsound} I actually don't .
Postdoc A: I appreciate it .
PhD H: I 'm just saying that
Grad F: Well , I {disfmarker} cuz I use a text mail reader .
PhD H: if ev but I 'm {disfmarker}
PhD E: Don't you use VI for your mai ?
PhD H: Yeah .
Professor B: Wow . That 's {disfmarker} that 's my guy . Alright .
Grad F: You {disfmarker} you read email {pause} in VI ?
PhD H: Yeah .
Postdoc A: Yeah . {vocalsound} I like VI .
PhD H: So {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} i There 's these logos {pause} that you can put at the bottom of your web page , like " powered by VI " .
Grad D: Yeah .
Professor B: Wow .
Grad D: I see .
PhD E: Anyway , quick question .
Grad F: You could put wed bugs in the email .
PhD E: How m
PhD H: Yeah .
PhD E: Like , there were three meetings this time , or so
Postdoc A: Six .
PhD E: or how many ? Six ? But , no of different people . So I guess if you 're in both these types of meetings , you 'd have a lot . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How {disfmarker} I mean , it also depends on how many {disfmarker} Like , if we release {disfmarker} this time it 's a fairly small number of meetings , but what if we release , like , twenty - five meetings to people ? In th
Grad F: Well , what my s expectation is , is that we 'll send out one of these emails {pause} every time a meeting has been checked and is ready .
PhD E: I don't know . Oh . Oh , OK . So this time was just the first chunk . OK .
Grad F: So . Tha - that was my intention . It 's just {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} that we just happened to have a bunch all at once .
PhD E: Well , that 's a good idea .
Grad F: I mean , maybe {disfmarker} Is that {pause} the way it 's gonna be , you think , Jane ?
Postdoc A: I agree with you . It 's {disfmarker} we could do it , uh {disfmarker} I I could {disfmarker} I 'd be happy with either way , batch - wise {disfmarker} What I was thinking {disfmarker} Uh , so this one {disfmarker} That was exactly right , that we had a {disfmarker} uh , uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I had wanted to get the entire set of twelve hours ready . Don't have it . But , uh , this was the biggest clump I could do by a time where I thought it was reasonable .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc A: People would be able to check it and still have it ready by then . My , um {disfmarker} I was thinking that with the {pause} NSA meetings , I 'd like {disfmarker} there are three of them , and they 're {disfmarker} uh , I {disfmarker} I will have them done by Monday . Uh , unfortunately the time is later and I don't know how that 's gonna work out , but I thought it 'd be good to have that released as a clump , too , because then , {vocalsound} you know , they 're {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they have a {disfmarker} it it 's in a category , it 's not quite so distracting to them , is what I was thinking , and it 's all in one chu But after that , when we 're caught up a bit on this process , then , um , I could imagine sending them out periodically as they become available .
PhD E: OK .
Postdoc A: I could do it either way . I mean , it 's a question of how distracting it is to the people who have to do the checking .
Professor B: We heard anything from IBM ? at all ?
PhD C: Uh . Let 's see . We {disfmarker} Yeah , right . So we got the transcript back from that one meeting . Everything seemed fine . Adam {pause} had a script that will {pause} put everything back together and there was {disfmarker} Well , there was one small problem but it was a simple thing to fix . And then , um , {vocalsound} we , uh {disfmarker} I sent him a pointer to three more . And so he 's {pause} off and {pause} working on those .
Grad F: Yeah . Now we haven't actually had anyone go through that meeting , to see whether the transcript is correct and to see how much was missed and all that sort of stuff .
Postdoc A: That 's on my list .
Grad F: So at some point we need to do that .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc A: Well , that 's on my list .
PhD C: Yeah . It 's gonna have to go through our regular process .
Grad F: I mean , the one thing I noticed is it did miss a lot of backchannels . There are a fair number of " yeahs " and " uh - huhs " that {disfmarker} it 's just {disfmarker} that aren't in there . So .
Postdoc A: Hmm .
Professor B: But I think {disfmarker} Yeah . Like you said , I mean , that 's {disfmarker} that 's gonna be our standard proc that 's what the transcribers are gonna be spending most of their time doing , I would imagine ,
Postdoc A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm , mm - hmm .
Professor B: once {disfmarker} once we {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yes , absolutely . Yeah .
Postdoc A: One question about the backchannels .
Professor B: It 's gonna {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: Do you suppose that was because they weren't caught by the pre - segmenter ?
Grad F: Yes , absolutely . Absolutely .
Postdoc A: Oh , interesting . Oh , interesting . OK .
Grad F: Yeah . They 're {disfmarker} they 're not in the segmented .
Postdoc A: OK .
Grad F: It 's not that the {pause} IBM people didn't do it .
Postdoc A: OK .
Grad F: Just they didn't get marked .
Postdoc A: OK . So maybe when the detector for that gets better or something {disfmarker} I w I {disfmarker} There 's another issue which is this {disfmarker} we 've been , uh , contacted by University of Washington now , of course , to , um {disfmarker} We sent them the transcripts that correspond to those {pause} six meetings and they 're downloading the audio files . So they 'll be doing that . Chuck 's {disfmarker} Chuck 's , uh , put that in .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Yeah , I pointed them to the set that Andreas put , uh , on the {vocalsound} web so th if they want to compare directly with his results they can . And , um , then once , uh , th we can also point them at the , um , uh , the original meetings and they can grab those , too , with SCP .
PhD E: Wait . So you put the reference files {disfmarker} ?
PhD C: No , no . They d they wanted the audio .
PhD E: Or the {disfmarker} ?
PhD C: Jane sent them the , uh , transcripts .
PhD E: No , I mean of the transcripts . Um . Well , we can talk about it off - line .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: There 's another meeting in here , what , at four ? Right ? Yeah , so we have to finish by three forty - five .
PhD H: D d So , does Washi - does {disfmarker} does UW wanna u do this {disfmarker} wanna use this data for recognition or for something else ?
PhD C: Uh , for recognition .
PhD E: I think they 're doing w
PhD H: Oh .
PhD E: didn't they want to do language modeling on , you know , recognition - compatible transcripts
PhD H: Oh . I see .
Postdoc A: This is to show you , uh , some of the things that turn up during the checking procedure .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: or {disfmarker} ?
Postdoc A: Um @ @ {comment} So , this is from one of the NSA meetings and , uh , i if you 're familiar with the diff format , the arrow to the left is what it was , and the arrow to the right is {pause} what it was changed to . So , um . {vocalsound} And now the first one . " OK . So , then we started a weekly meeting . The last time , uh {disfmarker} " And the transcriber thought " little too much " But , {vocalsound} uh , really , um , it was " we learned too much " , which makes more sense syntactically as well .
PhD H: And these {disfmarker} the parentheses were f from {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: Then {disfmarker} Oh , this {disfmarker} that 's the convention for indicating uncertain .
Grad F: U uncertains .
Postdoc A: So the transcriber was right .
PhD H: S
Postdoc A: You know , she was uncertain about that .
PhD H: OK .
Postdoc A: So she 's right to be uncertain . And it 's also a g a good indication of the {disfmarker} of that .
PhD H: Oh . {comment} OK .
Postdoc A: The next one . This was about , uh , Claudia and {pause} she 'd been really b busy with stuff , such as waivers . Uh , OK . Um , next one . Um . {vocalsound} This was {pause} an interesting one . So the original was " So that 's not {disfmarker} so Claudia 's not the bad master here " , and then he laughs , but it really " web master " .
Grad F: Web master .
Grad D: Oh . {comment} Uh - oh .
Postdoc A: And then you see another type of uncertainty which is , you know , they just didn't know what to make out of that . So instead of " split upon unknown " , {comment} it 's " split in principle " .
Grad F: Yep .
Grad D: Jane , these are from IBM ?
Grad F: Spit upon ?
Grad D: The top lines ?
Postdoc A: No , no . These are {disfmarker} these are our local transcriptions of the NSA meetings .
Grad F: No , these are {pause} ours .
Postdoc A: The transcribers {disfmarker} transcriber 's version ver versus the checked version .
Grad D: Oh . Oh , I see .
Postdoc A: My {disfmarker} my checked version , after I go through it .
Grad D: OK .
Postdoc A: Um , then you get down here . Um . Sometimes some speakers will insert foreign language terms . That 's the next example , the next one . The , uh , version beyond this is {disfmarker} So instead of saying " or " , especially those words , " also " and " oder " and some other ones . Those sneak in . Um , the next one {disfmarker}
Grad F: That 's cool .
PhD H: Discourse markers .
Postdoc A: S
PhD H: Discourse markers .
Postdoc A: Sorry , what ? Discourse markers ? Sure . Sure , sure , sure .
PhD H: Discourse markers .
Postdoc A: And it 's {disfmarker} and it makes sense
PhD H: Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc A: cuz it 's , like , below this {disfmarker} it 's a little subliminal there .
PhD H: Yeah . Yeah , yeah .
Postdoc A: Um . OK , the next one , uh , {vocalsound} this is a term . The problem with terminology . Description with th the transcriber has " X as an advance " . But really it 's " QS in advance " . I mean , I {disfmarker} I 've benefited from some of these , uh , cross - group meetings . OK , then you got , um , {vocalsound} uh , instead of " from something - or - other cards " , {comment} it 's " for multicast " . And instead of " ANN system related " , it 's " end system related " . This was changed to an acronym initially and it should shouldn't have been . And then , you can see here " GPS " was misinterpreted . It 's just totally understanda This is {disfmarker} this is a lot of jargon . Um , and the final one , the transcriber had th " in the core network itself or the exit unknown , not the internet unknown " . And it {disfmarker} it comes through as " in the core network itself of the access provider , not the internet backbone core " . Now this is a lot of {pause} terminology . And they 're generally extremely good ,
PhD H: Mmm .
Postdoc A: but , you know in this {disfmarker} this area it really does pay to , um {disfmarker} to double check and I 'm hoping that when the checked versions are run through the recognizer that you 'll see s substantial improvements in performance cuz the {disfmarker} you know , there 're a lot of these in there .
PhD H: Yeah . So how often {disfmarker} ?
Grad F: Yeah , but I bet {disfmarker} I bet they 're acoustically challenging parts anyway , though .
Postdoc A: No , actually no .
Grad D: Mmm .
Postdoc A: Huh - uh .
Grad F: Oh , really ? Uh , it 's {disfmarker} Oh , so it 's just jargon .
Postdoc A: It 's jargon . Yeah . I mean this is {disfmarker} cuz , you know you don't realize in daily life how much you have top - down influences in what you 're hearing .
PhD H: Well , but {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: And it 's jar it 's jargon coupled with a foreign accent .
PhD H: But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} But we don't {disfmarker} I mean , our language model right now doesn't know about these words anyhow . So ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD H: you know , un until you actually {pause} get a decent language model , @ @ {comment} Adam 's right .
Grad F: It probably won't do any better .
PhD H: You probably won't notice a difference . But it 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's definitely good that these are fixed . I mean , {vocalsound} obviously .
Postdoc A: Well , also from the standpoint of getting people 's approval ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Postdoc A: cuz if someone sees a page full of uh , um , barely decipherable w you know , sentences , and then is asked to approve of it or not , {vocalsound} it 's , uh , uh {disfmarker}
Grad F: Did I say that ?
Professor B: Yeah .
Postdoc A: OK .
Professor B: Yeah . That would be a shame if people said " well , I don't approve it because {pause} the {disfmarker} it 's not what I said " .
Grad F: Well , that 's exactly why I put the extra option in ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Postdoc A: Exactly . That 's why we discussed that .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad F: is that I was afraid people would say , " let 's censor that because it 's wrong " ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad F: and I don't want them to do that .
Postdoc A: And then I also {disfmarker} the final thing I have for transcription is that I made a purchase of some other headphones
PhD H: C
Postdoc A: because of the problem of low gain in the originals . And {disfmarker} and they very much appro they mu much prefer the new ones , and actually I {disfmarker} I mean , I {disfmarker} I think that there will be fewer things to correct because of the {disfmarker} the choice . We 'd originally chosen , uh , very expensive head headsets
Grad F: Yeah . Ugh !
Postdoc A: but , um , they 're just not as good as these , um , in this {disfmarker} with this respect to this particular task .
PhD H: Well , return the old ones .
Grad F: It 's probably impedance matching problems .
Postdoc A: I don't know exactly ,
Grad F: But {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: but we chose them because that 's what 's been used here by prominent projects in transcription .
Professor B: Could be .
Postdoc A: So it i we had every reason to think they would work .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
PhD H: So you have spare headsets ?
Postdoc A: Sorry , what ?
PhD H: You have spare headsets ?
Grad F: They 're just earphones . They 're not headsets . They 're not microphones .
PhD E: Right .
PhD H: No , no . I mean , just earphones ? Um , because I , uh , I could use one on my workstation , just to t because sometimes I have to listen to audio files and I don't have to b go borrow it from someone and {disfmarker}
Postdoc A: We have actua actually I have {disfmarker} W Well , the thing is , that if we have four people come to work {pause} for a day , I was {disfmarker} I was hanging on to the others for , eh {disfmarker} for spares ,
PhD H: Oh , OK .
Postdoc A: but I can tell you what I recommend .
Professor B: No , but you 'd {disfmarker} If you {disfmarker} Yeah , w we should get it .
PhD H: Sure . No problem .
Grad F: But if you need it , just get it .
PhD H: I just {disfmarker}
Grad F: Come on .
PhD H: Right .
Professor B: Yeah . If you need it .
PhD H: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
Postdoc A: It 'd just have to be a s a separate order {disfmarker} an added order .
Grad D: Yeah , I still {disfmarker} I still need to get a pair , too .
Professor B: They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're pretty inexpensive .
PhD E: Yeah , that {disfmarker} We should order a cou uh , t two or three or four , actually .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad D: I 'm using one of these . Yeah .
PhD E: We have {disfmarker}
PhD H: I think I have a pair that I brought from home , but it 's f just for music listening
Professor B: No . Just {disfmarker} just {disfmarker} just {disfmarker} just buy them .
PhD E: Sh - Just get the model number
PhD H: and it 's not {disfmarker} Nnn . Yeah .
Professor B: Just buy them .
PhD E: and {disfmarker} Where do you buy these from ?
PhD H: Yeah .
Postdoc A: Cambridge SoundWorks , just down the street .
PhD E: Like {disfmarker} ? You just b go and b
Postdoc A: Yeah . They always have them in stock .
PhD E: Oh .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: That 'd be a good idea .
PhD H: Anyway .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad F: W uh , could you email out the brand ?
Postdoc A: Oh , sure . Yeah . OK .
Grad F: Cuz I think {disfmarker} sounds like people are interested .
Grad D: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad D: Definitely .
Grad F: So .
Postdoc A: It 's made a difference in {disfmarker} in how easy . Yeah .
Professor B: I realized something I should talk about . So what 's the other thing on the agenda actually ?
Grad F: Uh , the only one was Don wanted to , uh , talk about disk space yet again .
Grad D: Yeah . u It 's short . I mean , if you wanna go , we can just throw it in at the end .
Professor B: No , no . Why don't you {disfmarker} why don't you go ahead since it 's short .
Grad D: Um , well , uh .
Grad F: Oh , I thought you meant the disk space . Yeah , we know disk space is short .
PhD H: The disk space was short . Yeah . That 's what I thought too .
PhD E: That 's a great ambiguity .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: It 's one of these {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's social
Professor B: It 's {disfmarker} I i i it i
PhD E: and , uh , discourse level
Grad D: Yeah .
PhD E: and {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah , it 's great . Yeah ,
PhD E: Sorry .
Professor B: double {disfmarker} double {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yeah , it was really goo
PhD E: See , if I had that little {pause} scratch - pad , I would have made an X there .
Grad D: Thank you , thank you .
Grad F: Uh , well , we 'll give you one then .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad D: Um . {vocalsound} So , um , without thinking about it , when I offered up my hard drive last week {disfmarker}
Grad F: Oh , no .
Grad D: Um , this is always a suspect phrase .
PhD E: It was while I was out of town .
Grad D: But , um , no . I , uh {disfmarker} I realized that we 're going to be doing a lot of experiments , um , {vocalsound} o for this , uh , paper we 're writing , so we 're probably gonna need a lot more {disfmarker} We 're probably gonna need {vocalsound} that disk space that we had on that eighteen gig hard drive . But , um , we also have someone else coming in that 's gonna help us out with some stuff .
Professor B: We 've just ordered a hundred gigabytes .
Grad D: So {disfmarker} OK . We just need to {disfmarker}
PhD E: I think we need , like , another eighteen gig disk {pause} to be safe .
Professor B: Well , we 're getting three thirty {disfmarker} thirty - sixes .
PhD E: So .
Professor B: Right ?
Grad D: OK .
Professor B: That are going into the main f file server .
PhD E: OK .
Professor B: So .
PhD C: Markham 's ordering and they should be coming in soon .
Grad D: W Well . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}
Grad F: Soon ?
Grad D: Yeah . I mean , I guess the thing is is , all I need is to hang it off , like , {vocalsound} the person who 's coming in , Sonali 's , computer .
PhD H: Oh , so {disfmarker} so , you mean the d the internal {disfmarker} the disks on the machines that we just got ?
Grad D: Whew . Or we can move them .
Grad F: No .
PhD C: These are gonna go onto Abbott .
Grad F: Ne - new disks .
PhD H: Or extra disk ?
Professor B: Onto Abbott , the file server .
Grad D: So are we gonna move the stuff off of my hard drive onto that when those come in ?
Grad F: On {disfmarker}
PhD H: Oh , oh . OK .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD E: Uh , i
Grad F: Once they come in . Sure .
Grad D: OK . That 's fine .
PhD E: Do {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when is this planned for {pause} roughly ?
PhD C: They should be {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I imagine next week or something .
Grad D: OK .
PhD E: OK . So {disfmarker}
Grad F: If you 're {disfmarker} if you 're desperate , I have some space on my drive .
Grad D: I think if I 'm {disfmarker}
Grad F: But I {disfmarker} I vacillate between no space free and {pause} a few gig free .
Grad D: Yeah . I think I can find something if I 'm desperate
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad F: So .
Grad D: and , um , in the meantime I 'll just hold out .
Grad F: OK .
Grad D: That was the only thing I wanted to bring up .
PhD C: It should be soon . We {disfmarker} we should {disfmarker}
Grad D: OK .
Professor B: So there 's another hundred gig . So .
Grad D: Alright . Great .
PhD H: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: OK . It 's great to be able to do it ,
Grad D: That 's it .
Professor B: just say " oh yeah , a hundred gig ,
PhD E: Good .
Professor B: no big deal " .
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah . A hundred gig here , a hundred gig there .
PhD E: Well , each meeting is like a gig or something ,
Grad F: It 's eventually real disk space .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: so it 's really {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah . Um . Yeah . I was just going to comment that I I 'm going to , uh , be on the phone with Mari tomorrow , late afternoon .
Grad F: Oh , yeah .
Professor B: We 're supposed to {vocalsound} get together and talk about , uh , where we are on things . Uh , there 's this meeting coming up , uh , and there 's also an annual report . Now , I never actually {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was asking about this . I don't really quite understand this . She was re she was referring to it as {disfmarker} I think this actually {pause} didn't just come from her , but this is {pause} what , uh , DARPA had asked for . Um , she 's referring to it as the an annual report for the fiscal year . But of course the fiscal year starts in October , so I don't quite understand w w why we do an annual report that we 're writing in July .
PhD C: She 's either really late or really early .
Grad F: Huh . Or she 's getting a good early start .
Professor B: Uh , I think basically it it 's none of those . It 's that the meeting is in July so they {disfmarker} so DARPA just said do an annual report . So . So . So anyway , I 'll be putting together stuff . I 'll do it , uh , you know , as much as I can without bothering people , just by looking at {disfmarker} at papers and status reports . I mean , the status reports you do are very helpful .
PhD H: Hmm .
Professor B: Uh , so I can grab stuff there . And if , uh {disfmarker} if I have some questions I 'll {disfmarker}
Grad F: When we remember to fill them out .
Professor B: Yeah . If {pause} people could do it as soon as {disfmarker} as you can , if you haven't done one si recently . Uh . {vocalsound} Uh , but , you know , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sure before {pause} it 's all done , I 'll end up bugging people for {disfmarker} for more clarification about stuff . Um . {vocalsound} But , um , I don't know , I guess {disfmarker} I guess I know pretty much what people have been doing . We have these meetings and {disfmarker} and there 's the status reports . Uh . But , um . Um . Yeah . So that wasn't a long one . Just to tell you that . And if something {vocalsound} hasn't , uh {disfmarker} I 'll be talking to her late tomorrow afternoon , and if something hasn't been in a status report and you think it 's important thing to mention on {vocalsound} this kind of thing , uh , uh , just pop me a one - liner and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll have it in front of me for the phone conversation .
PhD H: OK .
Professor B: Uh . I guess , uh , you you 're still pecking away at the {pause} demos and all that , probably .
Grad F: Yep . And Don is {pause} gonna be helping out with that .
Professor B: Oh , that 's right .
Grad F: So .
Professor B: OK .
Grad F: Did you wanna talk about that this afternoon ?
Grad D: Um .
Grad F: Not here , but later today ?
Grad D: We should probably talk off - line about when we 're gonna talk off - line .
Grad F: OK . OK .
Professor B: OK . Yeah , I might want to get updated about it in about a week cuz , um , I 'm actually gonna have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a few days off the following week , a after the {disfmarker} after the picnic . So .
Grad F: Oh , OK .
Professor B: That 's all I had .
Grad F: So we were gonna do sort of status of speech transcription {disfmarker} automatic transcription , but we 're kind of running late . So .
PhD E: How long does it take you to save the data ?
Grad F: Fifteen minutes .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad F: So . If you wanna do a quick
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad F: ten minute {disfmarker}
PhD E: Guess we should stop , like , twenty of at the latest .
Professor B: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: We {disfmarker} we have another meeting coming in that they wanna record .
Professor B: And there 's the digits to do .
PhD E: So .
Professor B: So maybe {disfmarker} may maybe {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yeah . Well , we can skip the digits .
Professor B: We could . Fi - five minute report or something .
PhD E: It 's up to you . I don't {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah , yeah .
Grad F: Whatever you want .
Professor B: Well , I would love to hear about it ,
Grad F: What do you have to say ?
Professor B: especially since {disfmarker}
Grad F: I 'm interested , so {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah . Well , I 'm gonna be on the phone tomorrow , so this is just a {pause} good example of {pause} the sort of thing I 'd like to {pause} hear about .
PhD E: Wait . Why is everybody looking at me ?
PhD C: I don't know .
Grad F: Sorry .
Professor B: Cuz he looked at you
PhD H: What ?
Professor B: and says you 're sketching .
PhD E: Uh . I 'm not sure what you were referring to .
PhD H: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm not {disfmarker} actually , I 'm not sure what {disfmarker} ? Are we supposed to have done something ?
Grad F: No . We were just talking before about alternating the subject of the meeting .
PhD H: Oh .
PhD E: Uh - huh .
Grad F: And this week we were gonna try to do {pause} t automatic transcription {pause} status .
PhD H: Alternating .
PhD E: I wasn't here last week . Sorry .
PhD H: Oh !
PhD E: Oh .
Grad F: But we sort of failed .
PhD H: We did that last week . Right ?
PhD E: Hhh .
Grad F: No .
Professor B: I thought we did .
Grad F: Did we ? OK .
PhD H: Yeah . We did .
Grad F: OK . So now {disfmarker} now we have the schedule . So next week we 'll do automatic transcription status , plus anything that 's real timely .
PhD H: OK .
PhD E: Oh . OK .
Postdoc A: OK .
Professor B: OK . Whew !
PhD C: Good update .
Grad F: Whew !
Professor B: That was {disfmarker}
Grad F: Dodged that bullet .
Professor B: Yeah . Nicely done , Liz .
Postdoc A: A woman of few words .
Professor B: But {disfmarker} but lots of prosody . OK . {vocalsound} OK .
Grad F: Th
PhD H: Uh , I mean , we {disfmarker} we really haven't done anything .
Grad F: Excuse me ?
PhD H: Sorry .
Postdoc A: Well , since last week .
PhD E: Yeah , we 're {disfmarker}
PhD H: I mean , the {disfmarker} the next thing on our agenda is to go back and look at the , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the automatic alignments because , uh , I got some {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I learned from Thilo what data we can use as a benchmark to see how well we 're doing on automatic alignments of the background speech {disfmarker} or , of the foreground speech with background speech .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD H: So .
PhD E: And then , uh , I guess , the new data that Don will start to process {disfmarker}
PhD H: But , we haven't actually {disfmarker}
PhD E: the , um {disfmarker} when he can get these {disfmarker} You know , before we were working with these segments that were all synchronous and that caused a lot of problems
PhD H: Mmm .
PhD E: because you have timed sp at {disfmarker} on either side .
Grad F: Oh . Right , right . Mm - hmm .
PhD E: And so that 's sort of a stage - two of trying the same kinds of alignments with the tighter boundaries with them is really the next step .
Grad F: Right .
Postdoc A: I 'll be interested .
PhD E: We did get our , um {disfmarker} I guess , good news . We got our abstract accepted for this conference , um {disfmarker} workshop , ISCA workshop , in , um , uh , New Jersey . And we sent in a very poor abstract , but they {disfmarker} very poor , very quick . Um , but we 're hoping to have a paper for that as well , which should be an interesting {disfmarker}
Grad F: When 's it due ?
PhD E: The t paper isn't due until August . The abstracts were already due . So it 's that kind of workshop .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: But , I mean , the good news is that that will have sort of the European experts in prosody {disfmarker} sort of a different crowd , and I think we 're the only people working on prosody in meetings so far , so that should be interesting .
Postdoc A: What 's the name of the meeting ?
PhD E: Uh , it 's ISCA Workshop on Prosody in Speech Recognition and Understanding , or something like that {disfmarker}
PhD H: It 's called Prosody to {disfmarker}
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc A: Good .
PhD E: some generic {disfmarker} Uh , so it 's focused on using prosody in automatic systems and there 's a {disfmarker} um , a web page for it .
Professor B: Y you going to , uh , Eurospeech ? Yeah .
Grad F: I don't have a paper
PhD H: Yeah .
Grad F: but I 'd kinda like to go , if I could . Is that alright ?
Professor B: We 'll discuss it .
Grad F: OK . {vocalsound} I guess that 's " no " .
Professor B: My {disfmarker} my {disfmarker} my car {disfmarker} my car needs a good wash , by the way .
Grad F: OK . Well , that th Hey , if that 's what it takes , that 's fine with me .
Professor B: Um .
Grad F: I 'll pick up your dry - cleaning , too . Should we do digits ?
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad F: Uh .
PhD H: Can I go next ? Because I have to leave , actually .
Grad F: Yep . Go for it . Hmm ! Thanks . Thank you .
Professor B: So you get to be the one who has all the paper rustling . Right ?
| |
doc_87
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Project Manager: Hello again .
User Interface: Hello .
Industrial Designer: Hi . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hey , Project Manager .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um , Project Manager , I have something to tell you .
Project Manager: Mm yeah .
User Interface: I have a little problems with my laptop .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: And uh s s s so I had a little less time to complete .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: No , a little problem , uh {vocalsound} big problem . I just thought {disfmarker}
Marketing: What was it , problem ?
User Interface: Um , it didn't work anymore . {vocalsound}
Marketing: The laptop ?
User Interface: The entire Windows uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: It hang {disfmarker} hung .
User Interface: It it hung . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ha-ha . Oh . Project Manager .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes . {vocalsound} Yes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You're our Project Manager .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your project manager . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Welcome to the conceptual design meeting
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: for Real Reaction .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh , hello again . Uh it's uh the same as the last time . Uh uh , also this time there will be uh three presentations .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And we um must uh reach a decision on uh the remote control concepts . Um uh , and at the end , uh I uh , when I finish it off I have some uh input from uh a master class I uh {vocalsound} visited . {vocalsound} {gap} information . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: During lunch , yeah .
Marketing: Master .
User Interface: He's the master , yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The the the the the concepts on uh {disfmarker} we uh {disfmarker} where we uh must reach a decision on . Um uh , our {disfmarker} from uh are of two sorts .
Marketing: Master of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Components concepts and user interface concepts . Uh , the first one is uh really about the the the the the total package uh with uh {disfmarker} Well , we have decided to do a {disfmarker} do the uh {disfmarker} with a touch-screen that must be a case around it so uh it won't be uh uh as breakable . Uh how how about the energy ? Can you uh can you reload it or uh just have batteries which you must exchange ? Uh , the user interface concept . Uh , with the type and uh the the supplements . So uh where to put what button . {vocalsound} And uh uh I would say uh {disfmarker} Jans , can you begin ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , sure .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: At the end , uh {disfmarker} I will take notes uh and at the end of the minutes uh will uh be at the shared folder .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Uh , let me see . I think it's this one . Ha .
User Interface: Wow .
Industrial Designer: Right . Uh , well , I'll be talking about the components .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh , what I did was I reviewed previously used items uh by uh two two uh different uh age groups .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh below forty five and above . And uh I just uh watch what the differences are and I checked uh , well , what what d do we want , and {gap} how can we uh d aim a at uh the target group . Well uh what I found was that a senior um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} senior citizens uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I'm sorry . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ye Ah , it's {vocalsound} it's okay .
Marketing: Okay . Go on . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} They , well , they like more the {disfmarker} they like the traditional materials , like wood and and such more .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Wood and chrome .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And uh uh they like uh straightforward shapes . Um , uh they they they they like luxurious uh styles , where whereas the young and dynamic , they like a more uh soft materials . Think of the Teletubbies , for instance .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh uh , soft and fluffy and colourful and {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well uh , shapes are curved and round .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Y y you get {vocalsound} the picture . And uh they like sports and gaming , and that gives them uh the vitality . Uh , so w well uh , firs
Project Manager: One one little question .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Um about the the material .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh a soft material for a remote control ?
Industrial Designer: No , I'll I'll get to that .
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You you'll see . Yeah .
Project Manager: Thank you . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh , well f first off , let's start start with the energy . W I uh I had a choice between uh a few different uh sources .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: But uh the two basic sources that I found were the best possible were the battery uh versus kinetic . Uh kinetic , that's when you move something , then uh it gets energy . I figured , well that's ki kinda high-tech , when when you have a remote control that well , when you pick it up , it has power . That would be actually very nice , uh I figured .
Project Manager: Oh .
Industrial Designer: Well , we could also use a battery , that's a bit {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah but when the power gets low , you have to shake it or something ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah yeah , you c just you have to shake it around a little bit .
Marketing: Uh , and uh uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And then then it d then it has some more uh energy .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Well , y you could just go for a battery . Or you can go for both ?
User Interface: Oh , have you considered the option of using a solar panel ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I actually did . But uh the thing is about solar panel is you have to have l uh light . Well , sunlight preferably .
User Interface: W {gap} nah .
Industrial Designer: Uh , and you you could you could use normal light , but uh you wouldn't get the same amount of energy that you would from a battery or something .
User Interface: Mm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh for uh ultimate b uh {vocalsound} n uh use of uh solar panels , you could actually use uh {disfmarker} you could use uh solar panels , but uh you ha you'd have to implement them into uh the remote control , leaving you uh a bit less space for the interface .
Marketing: Mm yeah . It's too less space .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So uh {disfmarker} so i i it it wo what's actually {disfmarker} I I c just in f I've figured it out that well , uh seeing that you'll always be uh within the l uh distance of T_V_ , and the {disfmarker} from T_V_ there comes a a a whole bunch of light . So it would actually power itself uh from a T_V_ .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But , well you just take up all the space , and you wouldn't uh have the full amount of power actually used .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: But you prefer kinetic ?
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} I I prefer kinetic because it's uh {disfmarker} well , the costs aren't that much higher , and um , ju just a bit more high-tech than than a normal battery .
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah , but you don't move a a remote control too much .
Industrial Designer: I mean , if {disfmarker} No , but uh d Well , you pick it up and you press buttons and y well , you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And that's enough to to keep the energy level uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , well uh actually it is .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And it it {disfmarker} if it isn't , you just shake it a bit and and add add with power up again .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But , what l what Jarek said , you could you could use a battery that you'd just keep it on the recharging whenever it moves . And for rest , you'd just add juice on the battery .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: And when the battery doesn't work , I usually shake it too . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you , Tim . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Exactly . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Like slamming on it . {vocalsound} It's exactly the same . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And so that {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: f furthermore , you you {disfmarker} we {gap} {disfmarker} uh checked uh the cases .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We have uh different options uh concerning the cases . You ha I {disfmarker} you sim uh you simply add a basic uh standard uh model uh {disfmarker} it was kind of square and uh I figured that's a bit boring . So you you {disfmarker} we could go for uh the single curved or the double curved . Um , single curve , it's just a {disfmarker} well , uh , you know , it's just uh a nice curve . Or but but you could go in a in an double curves . And that's {gap} like several different dimensions .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: That gives you an whole new uh effec
Project Manager: Dynamic dynamic look ?
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that gives you a younger and uh more high-tech look , I f I figured . But , that uh we'll discuss later .
Marketing: But , are you going to draw it ?
Industrial Designer: What ?
User Interface: Th th yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You want me to draw in three-D_ ?
Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh , I c I can't imagine .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh , yeah , I ca I ca I could I could show you . I could show you .
Marketing: I can't imagine how how how it looks like .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well uh let's say y uh you uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Let's say that's your standard uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Design .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: That's a bit your d standard design . But you could actually go like uh something like this .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And then uh in three-D_ effect you could go {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So y you you just {disfmarker} Yeah , this is a {disfmarker} this {vocalsound} bit uh difficulty in {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I didn't take a major in art . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But but you could have uh uh a whole new uh the back back the the the depth , you could you could uh just play around a bit with .
Marketing: Oh , okay . Okay .
Industrial Designer: You you don't have to use standard uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh , okay .
Project Manager: A little artistic .
Industrial Designer: Yeah you could {disfmarker} y It leaves more space for creativity .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh that might be an idea ,
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: but {vocalsound} just a {disfmarker} Well , furthermore , uh well , uh plastic versus rubber ? You {disfmarker} We could choose uh what uh what's better , plastic um or rubber . I I ch prefer rubber because it feels uh {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: It's soft .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's soft and it's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I like soft .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's the material the younger people want uh , ain't it ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah I mean uh plastic uh is {disfmarker} Plastic also has that cheap feeling to it , {vocalsound} like plastic uh {disfmarker} Your your {disfmarker} I usually associate plastic with uh something that's cheap . Uh that's maybe just me , but {disfmarker} Uh , we could uh uh , oh , talk about it later . Uh furthermore , buttons . Uh traditional uh or a touch screen . Well , we discussed it in a previous meeting , so I figured I'll just leave it at the L_C_D_ . And uh chip set , well uh if we are going to use traditional buttons , we could go uh with a simple chip set . But uh if we decide to go on a n uh um L_C_D_ screen , we would use an uh {disfmarker} we have to use an a advanced chip set . And that would bring uh the necessary costs with with it . So that's something we th have to keep in mind . If it isn't uh manageable uh budget-wise , we'd have to go over to uh to sim to simple buttons .
Marketing: Well , I think uh we're going to sell tell {disfmarker} ten millions of them . So uh I bet a big company in uh Korea or Taiwan , like uh Samsung , can give us uh a big discount on the chips , so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , probably .
Marketing: U usually , chips are uh aren't more expensive than one dollar .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , probably , but {disfmarker} But uh yeah , that's that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That that shouldn't be a real issue , I think .
Industrial Designer: That shouldn't shouldn't be uh that big a issue . I'll I'll I'll just add , uh uh I put a big summary here , so we could discuss it a bit . Uh {gap} what i what are your ideas {gap} concerning battery versus kinetic ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um , I think you should use kinetic as a back-up .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , you you you should {disfmarker} we should {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , a combination .
User Interface: A combination , yeah .
Industrial Designer: A combination . Uh , {gap} you use the battery and w charge it up with kinetic . When you pick it up , it charges up .
Marketing: Yeah . Like an uh aku uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Acu uh , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah , I know .
User Interface: Okay . Yeah .
Project Manager: Just like the watch from Seiko .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well , {gap} . Yeah .
User Interface: Psycho-kinetic . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I con Exactly .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: What uh what do you think ?
Project Manager: I I uh I would prefer uh both uh too .
Industrial Designer: You agree ?
Project Manager: Yeah . Combine them .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ? Both ?
Marketing: Combine them .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Uh , well that would bring the m m some more costs , but I mean the {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Who cares , right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's the Project Manager's problem . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Buy a fifty cents battery and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Of course . Fifty cent . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , {vocalsound} well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Fifty cent uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh , why doesn't {disfmarker} And then we have single-curved versus double-curved .
User Interface: Well maybe I have something in my presentation to uh to cope with that .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That {disfmarker} {gap} Okay . No , we'll we'll just wait and uh {disfmarker} Uh , plastic versus rubber . Any ideas ?
Marketing: Rubber .
Project Manager: Rubber . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh , rubber ?
User Interface: Um , isn't possible to make combination with kind of rubber is {gap} or bendable remotes where you've got a {gap} .
Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker}
User Interface: Or do you think it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh , I figured it will be m rather than hard {disfmarker}
User Interface: Rubber casing , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Nah , rubber c uh this is a casing , yeah . Rubber casing ,
Marketing: Rather hard .
Industrial Designer: because well if you use an uh d a touch-screen , uh it's just a casing uh around it . So um , you could go for plastic , but I figured {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Um , well d Maybe I can ask it right now the question that I have .
Industrial Designer: I I I would choose rubber .
User Interface: Uh , is it possible uh of {disfmarker} is it necessary to make a touch-screen square ? It isn't , I think , yeah ?
Industrial Designer: Well , m I don't know . No .
Marketing: Well , I think that touch-screens are generally square .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: But it's the case you put around it that makes the shape .
User Interface: We're {disfmarker} We put fashion in electronics ,
Industrial Designer: That isn't {disfmarker}
User Interface: so maybe we can uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm ? Yeah okay , but if you have a square uh L_C_D_ screen , and you put a case around it that has uh like bulbs or that that covers part of the L_C_D_ screen .
User Interface: Mm yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that would cover it .
Marketing: That {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That that would solve the problem .
User Interface: Oh , yeah . Okay , I I get it .
Marketing: That's {disfmarker} it's custom customisable and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm yeah .
Industrial Designer: So mm {disfmarker} Uh uh so uh so what are the opinions ? Uh rubber or plastic ? I I I prefer rubber .
Marketing: Yeah , me too .
Project Manager: Me too .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , you too ?
User Interface: That's good .
Industrial Designer: You sure ? You {gap} you you seemed to hesitate a bit .
User Interface: Well , as long a as long as it's it's uh it's firm , and you don't uh {disfmarker} it's not bendable or something ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm yeah .
User Interface: I th I think that goes too far .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it it shouldn't it shouldn't flop over when you hold it in your hand uh
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Oh . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} No , that that that that's gonna {disfmarker} The the chip set will hold it firm in place ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: and uh and and uh and a L_C_D_ screen also {disfmarker}
User Interface: It might even bounce back when you drop it on the floor .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah it {vocalsound} m might it might .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh , tra uh traditional versus L_C_D_ , well I figured we we all set on that .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And uh , then also the simple versus advanced . Well I figure if we go for L_ L_C_D_ , we we should have the advanced .
Project Manager: Mm yeah .
Industrial Designer: So that shouldn't be a problem .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay , well that's my uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Thank you .
Industrial Designer: Uh , you're welcome .
Marketing: Can I uh do my thing ?
Project Manager: Yeah . Do your thing , Tim .
Marketing: It uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Do your thing . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Bring it on . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Expert map .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay uh {disfmarker} Last week
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I went to uh Paris and Milan for some trend-watching .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: For marketing . Our research and development department and I went to Paris and Milan . In Paris and Milan , we uh asked different people , uh differing in age and in income , uh the amount of money to spend , um {vocalsound} what they like in design uh and material nowadays . Findings . Our main audience , uh so that's people below forty , uh prefer the following . At first , the colours of fruit .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Very basic colours , like Janus explained . Um , fresh colours , uh green , red , uh strawberry red , uh yellow , banana yellow .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um , considering material , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah . They like spongy material ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Spongeball .
Marketing: like {disfmarker} yeah a sponge-ball .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Like a s soft material .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Janus m uh mentioned it also . I think he did some uh some findings himself .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well , the Teletubbies sh {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You wer you weren't in Paris ? {vocalsound} Okay . Like this . Like big uh g flashy colours . Fresh .
Project Manager: Flashy . Yeah .
Marketing: It's nice , I think . Okay , our secondary audience , uh people above forty a forty years in age , they like the dark traditional colours . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , uh materials like wood that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but wood is not a not a material you {disfmarker} which you build a a remote control of .
Industrial Designer: Well , you could . You you could .
Marketing: No n j just j just a w
Project Manager: Yeah but {vocalsound} never seen one . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It'll float .
Marketing: No , okay , but just just a wooden uh look .
Project Manager: Case . Oh , a wooden look , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Like uh you have those fake uh fake panels on the floor .
User Interface: Tables . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: The {disfmarker} that isn't wood anyway , but {disfmarker} Okay ? {vocalsound} But , that's our secondary audience .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So , uh we decided to take mm yeah the people below forty .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So , that {disfmarker} this doesn't apply . 'Kay , the third . Uh , there're some overall thoughts about new remote controls . They have to look fancy . Um , they should be technological in innovative . That means uh there have to be fancy things in . Uh , and easy to use . But that's common . My personal preferences . We have to aim at a mu at the {gap} main audience . And uh , therefore use fresh colours .
Project Manager: Would you prefer uh uh {gap} that you can choose the colour of your uh remote control or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh , I'll I'll come to that in a second point .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Here , think about removable covers , as seen in mobile telephon telephone market . To customise your own remote control .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Like the Nokia uh the removable covers , uh just put a red on it and go to the shop and buy a green one .
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay .
Marketing: Uh , a third , material being used uh could well be stuff like rubber . Um , two advantages . Uh , it fits within the current market trends . And uh it adds safety to your remote uh when you drop it . So {disfmarker} Uh to come back to your question , I think uh and the people in Milan and Paris also think that uh the rubber should be pretty hard . Like uh seen on regular mobile phones . Actually , they have a lot in common . The phones and the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well , I actually saw a phone that you could use as a remote , so {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: Ah .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah . Okay .
Project Manager: Maybe you could use your remote as a phone .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Hey . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hey .
Project Manager: There are numbers on it , so uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That might be a next step . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , exactly .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh , in my second sheet of personal preferences , uh we have to reconsider the speech function {vocalsound} uh recognition .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh , it's very innovative . Innovative .
Project Manager: So that you say um S_P_S_S_ , and it goes to uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , like something .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: You you can see that the market is just screaming for new technologies , like speak {disfmarker} uh speech recognition and stuff . But , we have to keep the cost in uh in mind , but it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Twelve fifty uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , it it can be uh very expensive .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'Kay , second .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh , building games like Snake or Tetris {vocalsound} to amuse the younger users .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh , also the link with uh mobile phones . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but you don't use that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} th games when you watching television , I think .
Industrial Designer: Well , yeah .
Marketing: No , but {disfmarker} No , okay . But you don't use games when you're d when you're making a telephone call . It's just the same .
User Interface: When your parents are watching some boring program , you can take the remote and do something else .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay .
Marketing: When you're at college .
Project Manager: You take your remote control with you . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Take it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You take your uh remote with you to school . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No . You al {vocalsound} you also take {vocalsound} uh t {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: you take your IPac and go uh play games . Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Well , I do that , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , and um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And third , I stick with it , {vocalsound} the log-in functionality uh with the slogan , take parental control to a new dimension . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Ooh . S
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Very nice . {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh great {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: In {disfmarker} Okay . Um the interface contents . Well that's a just simple PowerPoint mock-up I want to m make it more as dynamic for you so I'll draw there . But , the main concept is um take one big touch screen . Um , always display the primary buttons clear and visible . Maybe even li like this with uh {vocalsound} u uses of a lot of space . And uh make the menu structure changeable . So if you press um system , that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , well m multiple system options can , maybe five or ten or or one , can fit in . Or maybe even a step further when you want to um t um have some other options that are not programmable with one horizontal button . And um other buttons can may be displayed here if that's necessary . And um well , how do {disfmarker} uh do we want to look at uh uh f um {disfmarker} Yeah {vocalsound} Does a remote look {disfmarker} Well , it's {disfmarker} you've gotta hold it in one hand . So um the middle like all remotes have to be in a little bit small , so you can put it in inside your hands . And some remotes you can use with your thumb . But I think that's too difficult for this one . So you can make it s a little broader . Yeah . And here ? And maybe use your thumb on the on the main buttons . And use your other hands on the menu structure . So here are gonna be the program buttons . One , two {vocalsound} , three , four , et cetera . And the the volume control and program control maybe . And , down here , um , I added , this could be one uh big L_C_D_ . Um , the menu structure . So you can use it in uh in this way . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One thing you've gotta keep in mind , keep the remote clear of too much functions at the same time .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um , {vocalsound} know that if you are changing the menu structure here , um {disfmarker} And well , I still believe you should keep displaying the buttons . But if you're programming the colour of the T_V_ , do not display twenty other options that are possible . Just keep it as simple as uh as possible . And do not use too many levels . Do not have to select a screen first and then brightness and then colour and un-plus , and um push plus twenty times .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But just the um uh just in one button if possible . And um , well , you kn you all know the T_V_ levels . Um , channel one , two . And when you get to n to uh to ten , ye and want to go back , uh well you have a problem . Just m most most modern T_V_s , you {gap} {disfmarker} you press one zero , and it goes to ten . And else , to one and through after that . So the s a button less . And um , things like teletext , put them in the menu . Things like um um {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Uh , what do you think about a back-and-forth come-up uh button ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , yeah w Yeah , I I find I must trying to uh tell it .
Marketing: {vocalsound} L like in uh internet explorer . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Is uh volume plus and minus ? And this is program uh plus and minus . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah okay , but does it {disfmarker} that is for uh going from four to five .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: But if you go from two to eight , and you want {disfmarker}
User Interface: Or if you're watching Studio Sports on uh on seventeen , and your wife is watching some soap on two {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , and on two . That you can switch switch easy .
User Interface: Well yes , I think that's a good idea . But um , well m my preference would to be put it in the menu structure .
Marketing: Yeah it is . Yeah .
User Interface: And if you're using that button a lot of times , well of course the menu will still be displayed on the screen . You just don't have to play games uh in-between . But if you're really switching between two channels , you won't have time uh to d use the other options .
Marketing: Mm no .
User Interface: Um , yeah already already told that .
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's it .
User Interface: Yeah . That's my conclusion .
Project Manager: Oh , okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} I think we can discuss a little about the the three uh kind of revolutionary things uh Tim uh came with . The parental control , the games , and the voice recognition .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: There's n not uh too much decision on uh that one so uh {disfmarker} I think that parental control is a good function to uh to put in the remote . I don't know how you think about it .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Well , I agree , just put it in the menu structure somewhere .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Um , yeah um system properties , um parental control .
Marketing: Yeah but {disfmarker} What I see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How I see it is you put it on the the remote and then you have like a Windows log-on screen with parents , children .
User Interface: Yeah . Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Something like that .
User Interface: Um , w well , yeah .
Marketing: And w when you want to use the parents uh option , you have to {disfmarker}
User Interface: It it has to be fast . You don't want to to go down and watch the news at eight o'clock and turn it on and wait twenty seconds for for uh the log-on screen and then remember your code and all kinds of settings .
Marketing: Yeah , ok
Project Manager: No but I think most people uh find it uh much more important that their children don't watch uh sex or violence uh on the television , and uh wait uh ten or fifteen seconds longer , so they can uh finally watch it uh because of that .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Why {disfmarker} Mm-hmm . You c may use {disfmarker} like when there's uh X_P_ , uh a simple log-on , d you just push uh one or two or three .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Pu push parents .
User Interface: And if you push parents , then {disfmarker}
Marketing: That {disfmarker} then then then you have to uh go to three-digit uh log-in .
User Interface: Yeah . To log in . Yeah . And if you puts a ye
Marketing: Like two one three .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Marketing: And it's in .
User Interface: And if you w you push p children , uh you don't have to uh log in , but you can only watch uh children's channels or uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: It automatically goes {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Okay . Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I don't know if it's worth uh the time and effort we are going to spend on it . Because well it's a simple function , but it's gonna take a lot of resources and a lot of time um to programming it . Because you'll have to start working with the profiles and such . And I'm not sure if it's actually worth uh investing that much time and effort into it .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Well I think that's a b there's a big market for it ,
Industrial Designer: I don't know what {disfmarker}
Project Manager: because uh you {disfmarker} Yeah , you read many times in magazines same kind of stuff , and you heard on the news that uh that he Yeah , they believe that children uh are influenced by the television ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm yeah . V violent T_V_ .
Project Manager: and uh {disfmarker} Well , we're we're aiming uh to uh below uh forty uh years . But there are a lot of uh people will below forty who have uh children in young age uh who who want um to uh not watch uh violent or uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . Well , maybe um some idea on that .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Just make through a remote as it is , but make an option to insert profiles ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: 'cause if my grandad would buy this remote , he wouldn't want to bother with all all the all the {gap} uh things to do .
Marketing: Yeah , of course .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Just make it an option in menu , ins install powerful profiles or something .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: That's a that's a better idea ?
Marketing: Yeah , w It just has to be w when it's deliver out of the store , it has to be just simple and plain .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah , okay .
Marketing: But if you want to install it personally uh {disfmarker} If I got kids , and I could choose between uh two remote controls . One uh w with parent control and one without , and I would would buy the one with .
Project Manager: Yeah , with and one without . Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um , b well , still some question I have about how to incorporate those ones .
Marketing: I th Yeah .
User Interface: You're thinking about some channels they uh cannot see , but well , {vocalsound} I I {vocalsound} when I think , oh yeah , for the f for all the standard channels , and only for maybe after ten o'clock uh in the evening violent films and movies uh will come
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and uh maybe maybe some some timing uh will be uh needed {vocalsound} instead of uh of channels ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: because if you're watching uh , I don't know , you're in the {disfmarker} at day uh , cartoons will come up m on maybe Friday night . {vocalsound} I don't know .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , maybe it can work with show view . Uh , you you can control your video recorder with show view .
User Interface: {gap} {gap}
Project Manager: Uh , when you tick in a number , it will uh start and end uh recording . But maybe there's some option that uh that t uh the kind of show view numbers are violent , and that they are blocked out .
User Interface: Yeah , the disadvantage vantage is that someone will has to send all the show-view numbers of the programs that they {gap} remotes and edit it all ,
Project Manager: Yeah . That's true . Yeah .
User Interface: will have to decide uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah but yeah but that isn't possible .
User Interface: That isn't possible .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But , well , if you want to {disfmarker} I i i if we in incorporate uh the parental control , uh let's say we do , and and well whatever , cho uh child just goes up to the T_V_ and presses up {vocalsound} for instance .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well uh , nob nobody's stopping the child from uh well checking uh the channel .
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: Well , yeah you could say if parental control is only {disfmarker} it it'll go from fourteen to sixteen with the page-up then , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But that {disfmarker} Well , I'm not sure because um for that to happen , you d you will have to receive a signal from the uh remote control , so it would , yeah , have to be constant uh constant signalling .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: What m what may be better is to incorporate an uh a separate device that uh that you can program with the remote control . And that uh provides parental control , for instance . And that's just an optional uh device . So there's n that's {disfmarker} there's {gap} {disfmarker} uh besides uh the remote control , you'll have a separate uh {disfmarker} {gap}
Project Manager: I wouldn't put it in an optional device . That that then then then it becomes too much , I think .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ?
Project Manager: If we do it , we we must do it in a kind of ways that like a profile , a parent profile , and a family profile , and otherwise .
Marketing: Yeah , and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , on a separate menu uh option .
Marketing: And and you know w uh when you install another device , uh children can still go up to the T_V_ , p pop open uh the thing and and and g
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's true . That's true ,
Marketing: go to a channel .
Industrial Designer: but uh at same instant , same happens when uh you have remote control . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , yeah of course . But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But , only difference is uh {vocalsound} the uh the people buying the remote control will now get the f added feature of parental control ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and those people wouldn't uh necessary want it .
Marketing: Yeah . Ah it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So , you {disfmarker} you'd be
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah , okay . But it's just an an added feature feature .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . And what do you uh guys think of the games in the voice recognition ? I personally think that that becomes too much .
User Interface: Yeah , well yeah , I {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's more like it gets you to the functionality , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: A mail too from management that it's very popular to use voice recon recognition .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: But I don't think when you're watching T_V_ uh , hearing loud noises from the T_V_ , someone screaming {vocalsound} one , and you f the channel switches , uh {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Mm yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , like f voice recognition is too much , I think . But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: And games ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} games . It doesn't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I can see games happening . Yeah .
User Interface: W you can put it on chip anyway , so uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: That would {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} As long as it's {disfmarker} isn't a primary feature of the remote ,
Marketing: That that doesn't c that doesn't co
User Interface: but uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , that that doesn't cost a lot of extra resources , I think .
Project Manager: Okay . So that will uh {disfmarker} that that that must be in it , you think ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that will be nice .
Project Manager: Okay . So the games uh are in it . The voice recognition are not . And the parental control are
User Interface: Optional in
Project Manager: optional ?
Marketing: Yeah , it's it's in it . But too ma I I think so , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: But how we do it ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Well , I think also it's a good idea , buts very difficult to incorporate . So we should make it too complex .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Is t some menu uh function , you choose parental control , and maybe four files will emerge from menu where put it on .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: But uh how how it's gonna work uh uh will f be a problem .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay . Uh , but uh will there uh uh {disfmarker} Like the first idea uh from uh {disfmarker} You can buy it without and uh with parental contr control ? Or are we going to put it in and uh just uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Well {disfmarker} Ye I I think best would be uh to put it in and {vocalsound} make it an menu option .
Marketing: To put {disfmarker}
User Interface: You can put on {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , to put it in always .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
User Interface: Yeah . And you can just uh s when you buy it , you can select um personal preference , parental control on , and the password or something .
Project Manager: Mm yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well , I don't know . I I figure if you had two different remotes , you could bo choose one with uh well uh uh a receiver in it . So you could actually easily uh build in uh parental control . But it would would be uh more expensive . So , a and that that way uh you could make cheap model and a expensive model . Could ma make the uh {gap} simple model and the deluxe model , uh for instance .
User Interface: Oh , it's a p Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , but T_V_s aren't capable of sending .
Industrial Designer: Yes they are . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah ? I thought they were just
Project Manager: Yeah , you yo
Industrial Designer: Yeah , you you have some T_V_s {gap} any {disfmarker}
Marketing: a able to receive . Yeah , some . But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but most often not .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . That is true , that is true .
User Interface: Well , maybe you just have to restrict it to what programs , where the parent says , you cannot watch channel seven , nine , and ten , and you cannot watch all channels after ten o'clock .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: And there's just some little uh clock in the remote .
Industrial Designer: Well yeah , you could you could easily you could easily you could easily {gap} to the mote control .
Marketing: Yeah , j just some rules .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But you still have the problem about uh the television itself .
User Interface: No , no , it's very simple . There uh th I h I've seen some of {gap} remotes who have a clock in it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah yeah .
User Interface: So , the remote does doesn't transmit when it's after twelve clock .
Marketing: Yeah , okay . But , on the T_V_
User Interface: Yeah ?
Marketing: at least my T_V_ , is a is a compartment which you can press .
User Interface: {gap} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: And there are buttons uh behind it which you can use , if you d if you don't if you don't have a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Well , that's {disfmarker} To put it very blunt , that's not our problem . Just have um the parents buy uh some glue and uh {disfmarker} It's not not a part of the remote .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , of course .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that is true . Yeah , that is true .
User Interface: You have to f Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , you could you could you could go like {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh , or make it ourselves very diffic
Industrial Designer: uh that that would actually make uh things a lot more easy .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You could just blame it on television and uh make it their problem .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I figured {disfmarker} I figure we could do that . Yeah , yeah , sure . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh , I'm not sure what marketing thinks about it , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Or j Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ah {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I have to uh {vocalsound} consult my legal advisor about it . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . So uh I think we have decided on the things that {disfmarker} Uh from Janus , the energy , the combination between battery and kinetic .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The case will be double-curved and uh rubber , in a fr flashy fruity colour uh that {disfmarker} with cover is removable .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The buttons will be uh touch-screen . Uh but there may not be too many buttons . And in the the menu structure , uh there must not to be uh {disfmarker} Five minutes to go . Uh , too uh too many levels . And uh it must be easy to use . The parental control will be incorporated , but it must be not too complex . And the games {gap} are in it . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think we have uh we have decided uh , okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Consensus .
Project Manager: Uh , little more .
Marketing: Oh . Oh . I I have one thing left .
User Interface: Oh .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Maybe for uh Jerome .
User Interface: Yeah ? I'm listening .
Marketing: Um , the views . Maybe it's uh handy to build in an expert view and a simple view .
Project Manager: Like a like a moat or s or something . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Um , well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: User profile .
Marketing: Like at {disfmarker} In the experts view , you have a lot of more buttons .
Project Manager: Yeah , but you have that in the {disfmarker}
User Interface: What I was thinking about is just a menu structure , when you don't use it is simple .
Project Manager: Yeah . You use the {disfmarker}
User Interface: And when you push uh system properties , uh entire list pops up with e ev all kind of f stuff you can program .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . It's already incorporated a little in that concept .
Marketing: Mm yeah , okay . Fairly enough . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well yeah , you you could actually build in a function that you can program it yourself , for the more advanced users .
Marketing: Yeah , wh which buttons you like or not .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , which buttons do you want to in it . Because you can you can like build in a back-forward button , and uh some po somebody would just want to watch two channels .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah . Just leave the other numbers away .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , you could you could m have people want uh want that .
Project Manager: We take it to the other meeting , okay ? I have a little w uh little chat to do
Marketing: Okay . Go on .
Industrial Designer: Ah , yeah , sure .
Project Manager: and uh then we uh finish .
Marketing: {vocalsound} A little chat . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I went to uh a master class and uh uh two things uh are uh are uh {disfmarker} can come in handy uh for us .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: First thing uh is uh we talked about knowledge uh management . Knowledge engineering and uh uh the fact that uh that uh that the idea of knowledge , uh sharing and learning knowledge from other companies is {gap} uh like that .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's it's uh very hot at the moment ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so it's it's mostly for the management expert to to look what other uh
Marketing: Marketing .
Project Manager: marketing {disfmarker} or did I said management ?
Marketing: Management .
Project Manager: Oh . {vocalsound} Just talking about myself .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , that's my function , to {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} W {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . Go on . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What other companies uh had to uh also with the the the the marketing campaign when they put on a newer remote , just some uh {disfmarker} Yeah . {vocalsound} Import export .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And uh another one .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Som some bench-marker .
Project Manager: Uh , they're a ha they're at {disfmarker} Yeah , benchmarking , that's the word I saw .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I uh couldn't uh {disfmarker} Okay , uh another uh thing is uh there were there there was a survey , and um uh it came out that um people like to buy things from a single large provider , instead of those who uh are partnering uh with us . So , we must uh we must bring it as if uh Real Reaction is uh is big company , uh a trustful company , and uh it has m
Marketing: How {disfmarker} I know a marketing name for our product .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: R_ th R_ to the third power .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: R_ three . Real Reaction remote . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I had a I had another idea to put uh uh the whole the whole idea of uh Real Reaction and uh uh uh a single brand and uh uh that kind of thing .
User Interface: Oh .
Marketing: Mm-hmm ?
Project Manager: When you uh put on remote , you see a kind of a {disfmarker} just like when you telephone , you see a little uh animation .
User Interface: Uh , logo . Yeah ?
Marketing: Bling .
Project Manager: Real Reaction remote . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And uh with the with the with the motto , we put fashion in electronics . And then you go uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , okay , but it has to be like a split second , because {vocalsound} you have to put in a code also and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . Well , you can show somebody a logo for point five seconds , they'll still remember it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah . But w th the idea from this uh thing is that we must present it as a {disfmarker} as we are a a single large provider who will stand on our own .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: And it it l linger on every time you see it .
Industrial Designer: Well , if you if you have the l L_C_D_ screen , you can {gap} you can uh have a small logo i uh at the bottom .
Marketing: {gap} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And it could just stay there .
Marketing: That spins around like all the time .
Project Manager: Mm yep , yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Very annoying . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that spins around or something .
Project Manager: Also also . But we we are uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: It it's just like a uh globe in Internet Explorer .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah y yeah yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , something like that . A small icon .
Project Manager: Okay , but uh think about that kind of things .
User Interface: Yeah , I {disfmarker} It's ok For f
Project Manager: That's what they said in the master class . {vocalsound} {gap} .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Oh , for the next meeting , right ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: N {vocalsound} Uh , next meeting starts in thirty minutes .
Marketing: Who uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So uh maybe you can go to Paris and Milan uh {vocalsound} once again .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Who who gave you the master class ?
Project Manager: The master class ?
Marketing: Ronald Betenberg ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Franz Mehler's . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay , thanks . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh , very special , uh next uh session .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh idea that you uh {disfmarker} the the industrial uh development uh centre {vocalsound} and uh user interface uh will work together on a prototype .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And uh will drawing it on the SMARTboard . So that's a kinda new uh thing . And um , the marketing expert will uh will uh ke he will be keeping busy with the product uh evaluation .
Marketing: Ah .
Project Manager: But the most uh specific instructions will be sent to you by email .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So we're going to work together right now ?
User Interface: Stay here and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , the {disfmarker} well , uh dids this what I uh what I heard . I {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: In the master class . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Not in the master class .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So you uh just wait for the specific instructions and uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} P_ .
Project Manager: But I think it was a very uh very good uh session , uh gentlemen .
User Interface: Ah , no new email .
Industrial Designer: Definitely .
Marketing: Me too .
Project Manager: I will thank you all .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Well thank you too . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Thank you . Thank you very much .
Project Manager: And uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Thank you too , lord .
Project Manager: Give me a good evaluation . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Marketing: {vocalsound} 'Kay guys , lot of success .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You wish .
User Interface: {vocalsound} See you .
Industrial Designer: M Aye ? Cheers .
Project Manager: Cheers . See you in a half hour .
Industrial Designer: Hey .
Project Manager: But keep an eye on your uh laptops for a real uh
Industrial Designer: Yeah , uh I'm not sure if we uh we {disfmarker} Because I saw something about individual actions .
Project Manager: Yeah , but th there's there's still the my uh instructions that you will work together .
User Interface: Yeah . Here ? Or uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's not my problem .
User Interface: Yeah . If you got a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Bye-bye . {vocalsound}
User Interface: No . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well , yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Stupid manager .
Project Manager: The project manager always works alone . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right . Uh {disfmarker} {gap} Do you have new email ?
User Interface: No . Don't get what's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
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Project Manager: Okay we all all set ? Right . Well this is the uh final detailed design meeting . Um we're gonna discuss the look and feel design , the user interface design , and we're gonna evaluate the product . And the end result of this meeting has to be a decision on the details of this remote control , like absolute final decision , um and then I'm gonna have to specify the final design in the final report . So um just from from last time to recap , we said we were gonna have a snowman shaped remote control with no L_C_D_ display , no need for talk-back , it was hopefully gonna be kinetic power and battery uh with rubber buttons , maybe backlighting the buttons with some internal L_E_D_s to shine through the casing , um hopefully a jog-dial , and incorporating the slogan somewhere as well . Anything I've missed ?
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: Okay um so uh if you want to present your prototype go ahead .
User Interface: Uh-oh . This is it ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ninja Homer , made in Japan . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um , there are a few changes we've made .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Um , well look at the expense sheet , and uh it turned to be quite a lot expensive to have open up and have lots of buttons and stuff inside ,
Project Manager: Mm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: so instead we've um {disfmarker} this is gonna be an L_C_D_ screen , um just a a very very basic one , very small um with access to the menu through the the scroll wheel and uh confirm um button .
Marketing: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: Uh , apart from that , it's just pretty much the same as we discussed last time .
Industrial Designer: And there isn't uh d it doesn't open up to the advanced functions ? the advanced functions are still hidden from you , but they're hidden in the sense that um they're not in use .
Marketing: Where are they ?
Industrial Designer: Um they're in the L_C_D_ panel and the jog-dial ?
Marketing: Ah , right .
Industrial Designer: Okay 'cause {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So w what kind of thing uh is gonna be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Great .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The L_C_D_ panel just displays um functionally what you're doing . If you're using an advanced function right , like um c brightness , contrast , whatever , it will just say {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right . Okay .
Industrial Designer: You know it's like it only has four columns , it's a very simple L_C_D_ like , whereas many {disfmarker} the minimum amount we need that the user will automatically know like this is brightness or this is contrast .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay cool .
Marketing: Right , 'kay .
Industrial Designer: It might even be one , a bit more complex L_C_D_ panel with pictures like maybe the sun or the , you know , the the symbols of the various functions .
Marketing: Okay
Project Manager: Oh right okay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm , and what is this here ?
Project Manager: Cool .
Industrial Designer: That's a number pad .
Marketing: Okay so the number pad is {disfmarker} 'Kay , great .
Project Manager: Where are we gonna have the slogan ?
Industrial Designer: Um they're al along this {disfmarker}
User Interface: You know , just like right inside there .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay cool .
Industrial Designer: You have this space here , and then you have this thing on the side as well , or at the bottom .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: 'Cause slogans are usually quite small , right ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: they're not like huge
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: so they're s
Marketing: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Say a button's about
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Looks good .
Industrial Designer: say a button's about this size , right , so you would still have plenty of space for a slogan , say even for that .
Marketing: Yep . {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So if this isn't to scale , what kind of dimensions are you thinking about here ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well {vocalsound} we want the other buttons to be big enough to push easily with a finger
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: so we reckon maybe that'll be about the same size as the palm of your hand . {gap}
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yep so that would be about a centimetre for a button , so one two three four centimetres . Plus maybe half o five
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: six seven eight ,
Marketing: About nine in total .
Project Manager: Six , seven , eight , nine , ten .
Industrial Designer: about yeah nine total .
Project Manager: So we're talking about ten centimetres .
Marketing: That sounds good . Yeah .
Project Manager: That would be good . So ten centimetres in height .
Marketing: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Nine , ten . Yep .
Project Manager: Okay um {vocalsound} .
Marketing: That'd be good , in fact a pen is about ten centimetres usually , so that would be {disfmarker} that sounds like a really good size , if you see it there .
Project Manager: Yeah . That's great and it's very bright as well . So um okay .
Marketing: Mm . Is it possible {disfmarker} uh I'm just gonna bring up the idea of colours . Is these are these the colours that {disfmarker} of production , or is this just what we had available ?
User Interface: Well I'm {disfmarker} We're gonna have again the the sort of the foggy um yellow from last time that lit up when you pushed the button .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Okay so just {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: could you just list all the things that it does s so I can write them in the report .
User Interface: But um {vocalsound} this button um , because it's red it's sort of very prominent , we're gonna use it as uh {disfmarker} it can be the power button if you hold it for maybe two seconds it'll send a stand-by signal .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Excuse me .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Um apart from that it's gonna be used as a confirm button for the L_C_D_ screen
Industrial Designer: Sure .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: and you use this as a jog-dial .
Project Manager: Okay so that's like an okay button , right .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Oh we've discussed how h high it is , but how wide is it ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: I don't know . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: How high is it ?
Industrial Designer: No as in the height , but what about the width ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Oh oh
User Interface: Didn't put five centimetres .
Project Manager: like depth of the actual thing .
Industrial Designer: Do we need five ? I don't think five is {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um .
Industrial Designer: be about th three and a half .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Oh is this k to get an idea of scale from your from your thing there okay .
User Interface: Something by there .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: Sure .
Project Manager: So you can power on and off , what else can you do ?
Marketing: Three and a half .
User Interface: Um you can skip straight to a channel using these buttons .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Um , were gonna have the volume control here , but um because we've got the the L_C_D_ and the jog-dial we just thought we'd um use that as the volume .
Project Manager: Okay jog-dial for volume . And what else do you do with the jog-dial ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Um you can use it for um more advanced functions like contrast , colour and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Contrast , brightness ,
User Interface: Um yeah .
Project Manager: yeah , and anything else ?
User Interface: Um just whatever else we wanted to include as the advanced functions , um we didn't actually go through and specify the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well of the designers what are they ?
User Interface: Uh what can a T_V_ do ?
Industrial Designer: Okay things like um brightness , contrast ,
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: um maybe tuning the channels .
Project Manager: Okay channel tuning .
Industrial Designer: Um .
Project Manager: That's a good one .
Industrial Designer: What else ? Um the various inputs . Are you having a V_C_R_ , are you having {disfmarker} you know which input do you have ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay auxiliary inputs .
Marketing: Mm-hmm ,
Industrial Designer: Um .
Marketing: probably colour or sharpness .
Industrial Designer: Yep , colour , sharpness . Um a lot of these things will have to be um free and open for users to define them .
Project Manager: Sharpness . Okay what about uh sound settings
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: ? Uh d can you change any of those at all ?
Marketing: Audio .
Industrial Designer: Audio , we have like your basic y your base , your mid-range , your high range .
User Interface: Um .
Industrial Designer: Um .
User Interface: {gap} the the balance hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yep , left-right balance , um maybe even pre-programmed sound modes , like um the user could determine like a series of sound modes ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: and then what could happen would be um when you click on that then it would go to that setting .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay ,
Marketing: Mm 'kay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: is there anything else at all it can do ? That {disfmarker} 'cause that's that's fine . Just need to know so I can write it down . Okay um right I g I guess that's it , so we can now um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} We can now have a little look at the the Excel sheet and price listing , and see if we need to um if we need to rethink anything at all .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So um for this first part here power-wise , have we got battery ?
Industrial Designer: The battery .
Project Manager: Do we have kinetic as well ?
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: No . Okay ,
Industrial Designer: Um .
Project Manager: just battery .
Industrial Designer: We need an {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And that's because of cost restraints is it ?
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: Okay
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah advanced chip .
Project Manager: um what about the electronics here ?
Industrial Designer: We need an advanced chip I think , yep .
Project Manager: Advanced chip .
Industrial Designer: Let me just confirm that . Yes I think so . Yep .
Project Manager: Okay um the case , what does it mean by single and double , do you know ?
User Interface: Um I think single would just be sort of one sort of oval whereas double is this sort of thing .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So we want double-curved ?
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: Okay . Um .
Industrial Designer: Plastic .
Project Manager: Is there any rubber at all in the buttons or any
Industrial Designer: I think we're gonna have to skip the rubber .
Project Manager: Okay ,
Industrial Designer: Um .
Project Manager: um and we wanted special colours didn't we ?
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: So I'll have to put that {disfmarker} Oh no wait we {disfmarker} ho how many colours have we got there ?
Industrial Designer: For the case itself , one colour . It's one special colour .
Project Manager: Just one colour , okay .
Industrial Designer: 'Cause the case unit itself , the rest of our components go on top of it .
Project Manager: Okay so interface-wise , is it this third option we have , the two of them there ?
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yes . One and the L_C_ display .
Project Manager: Okay and then buttons , we have what , two colours ?
Industrial Designer: How many {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um we have um got some push buttons as well .
Marketing: Or even clear .
Industrial Designer: We've got push buttons as well .
Project Manager: Like uh oh wait so push button and integrated scroll wheel push
User Interface: 'Kay .
Project Manager: okay .
User Interface: So I reckon we've got one button for this thing 'cause it's just one big sheet of rubber .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: I'm not sure if that counts but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay let's just be safe and put like say four buttons for that one .
Project Manager: Okay . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay um and maybe a special colour for the buttons , so maybe four again .
Project Manager: Four .
User Interface: You can see we're we're all very far beyond the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So w why are we arriving at the number four ? Where does the number four come from ?
Industrial Designer: 'Cause that's one button by its the complexity of twelve buttons .
Project Manager: Okay right ,
Industrial Designer: So we're just estimating that yeah it would be less .
Project Manager: so we're writing down four . {vocalsound} Okay . How about these ? Are we wanting them in {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: no they're just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: is everything gonna be plastic ?
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: Okay . So we're w w quite far over .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now we're gonna {disfmarker} something's gonna have to go . Um we're at sixteen point eight and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh how mm-hmm {disfmarker} how are we going to achieve this high-end product if {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well we h something has to go to the tune of two point t three Euro ,
Marketing: We only have very sparse {disfmarker}
Project Manager: so let me see , what are we {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: Two point three ? Four point three no ?
Project Manager: oh yes sorry , four point three . My maths is all out .
User Interface: Well we could take out ones by making it single curved , just fill in those bits .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: How much would that save us ?
Marketing: And then where is the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: How much would that save us ?
Industrial Designer: That will only save you one .
User Interface: That is one .
Industrial Designer: The other thing could be that um you could take away the L_C_D_ panel and the advanced chip together ,
Project Manager: One .
Industrial Designer: um because when you do something on the T_V_ , the T_V_ responds and reacts as well ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so the user could be looking at the T_V_ and pushing his thing so we may not need to {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's fair enough , yeah .
Industrial Designer: so when we scroll we need just some way to get the T_V_ to respond ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: which I think is a technically doable thing so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So w what's our reviewed suggestion ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um take away the L_C_ display ?
Industrial Designer: Yep . And the advanced chip goes away as well .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: To be replaced with a
Industrial Designer: Regular chip .
Project Manager: regular chip .
Industrial Designer: Yep . So what that means is that um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And so we've got point three to get rid of . Um and we ha where are the four {disfmarker} the four push buttons are where exactly now ?
Industrial Designer: The twelve buttons that you see there {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Twelve buttons .
User Interface: That's um one piece of rubber but it's gonna have twelve button things underneath so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Functionally you're gonna have to intercept {disfmarker} So four is a good estimate for {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you think ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , so you can't actually cut {vocalsound} {disfmarker} It's like three times the number of buttons , four , eight , twelve .
Project Manager: Like is is that one big button or is it twelve buttons ,
Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} It needs to be more than one big button because if you open up your phone , underneath there's actually one button underneath , it's just that the panel itself is a single panel .
Project Manager: how can it be something in between ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm . Okay
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: well we have point three to get rid of somewhere .
Industrial Designer: We just report that it has to be over budget {vocalsound} ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: or the colours , you could take away s colours for th for the buttons .
Project Manager: No can do .
Marketing: Yeah we could just go with um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah w
Industrial Designer: Normal coloured buttons .
Project Manager: Well do you want colour differentiation here ?
Industrial Designer: No that's not the button we're talking about .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh yeah sorry yeah then . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: the buttons only refer to the pad so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Should we take that off uh ?
Project Manager: Ah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hey it's back to the original .
Project Manager: That's it .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um so then these just become normal coloured buttons , so that might be some some way of cutting the cost .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm .
Project Manager: Okay , ach that's a shame . {vocalsound} Um right , so take away that completely ? Ah . And now we're under budget . So we do have point five Euro to play with if we wanted .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So I reckon {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: How about with embossing the logo , isn't that going to cost us some money ?
Project Manager: Doesn't say so . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . That's a freebie .
User Interface: Reckon that probably counts as a special form for the buttons .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah that's a good idea . Just one ? Does that mean that one button has a special form or {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think {gap} there's just one button so
Project Manager: Yeah okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: handy {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Well well there we go . So I'm just gonna have to redraw this now . So we're not gonna have the L_C_D_ anymore , and we'll just gonna have an on t on the T_V_ it'll show you what you're doing , which I think is fair enough , and so this is gonna be one big thing here . Um .
Marketing: Was the goal in your in your prototype design that it be as low profile as possible ?
Industrial Designer: What do you mean by profile ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Sort of flat as possible .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: You see I envision it as being um quite deep
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: sort of {vocalsound} deep enough to be comfy to hold in your hands rather than being wide and flat .
Marketing: Yeah that's what I was thinking , to
Industrial Designer: We didn't have enough Play-Doh to make it three D_ . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sure , okay . Yeah alright yeah fair enough .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay , just thought I'd ask .
Industrial Designer: So there's one more dimension to the thing which we need to to add ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and you might want to add in the report , length , width , and height .
Project Manager: Right okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So just to well to be thorough then , width-wise we're looking at about what three centimetres or something ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay and then so height-wise {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: How how tall do you envisage it being ? About that big ?
Industrial Designer: Two .
User Interface: Yeah it works , yeah .
Project Manager: About two centimetres , okay .
Marketing: Two's not very high at all though .
Industrial Designer: This is about this is about two .
Marketing: Maybe a bit higher ?
Industrial Designer: Slightly more than two , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: See , about that thick .
Project Manager: Okay . Ach , that is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Maybe closer to three even or two and a half .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay we'll s we'll say two point five . Okay um so we have it within cost anyway . Um so yeah project evaluation is this point . Um .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Right uh . Okay so can we close that ? This is what it's {disfmarker} the final spec that it's gonna be . Someone is gonna have to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: yeah that's fine that's fine .
Marketing: Um it's probably just {disfmarker} I dunno if it's worth getting into , but um just in in that we want this to be stylish , should we think a little bit more out of the box in terms of a button grid , because I've seen there's lots of devices out there that that instead of taking your standard nine nine square grid , and they have it sort of stylized or in different concept that that {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think that's something that's very hard to catch ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so you you restrict the number of people who wanna try something .
Marketing: Sure , okay .
Industrial Designer: The the look and the colour is something which is cool ,
Marketing: Yeah , alright .
Industrial Designer: but I think that there's also that factor of if it's too unfamiliar
Marketing: Okay , sure .
Industrial Designer: then um {disfmarker} because when you put it on the shelf {disfmarker}
Marketing: What about button shape ? Square buttons ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah button shape might be a good idea to change , rather than rather than positioning ,
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: 'cause I think positioning is {disfmarker} we're kinda engrained into the the telephone kind of
Marketing: Yeah . Sure .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: pad .
Project Manager: Right um . So at this point we uh , let me see , discuss uh how satisfied we all are with um with these four points , with the room for creativity in the project , and leadership and teamwork , and the stuff we had around us I guess .
Marketing: Mm 'kay .
Project Manager: Um , let me see uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Do you want me to d um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Do you want me to do my um design evaluation last ?
Industrial Designer: Maybe we should do the design evaluation first .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah I wasn't really sure what that was {disfmarker}
Marketing: Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah
Marketing: Evaluation .
Project Manager: , yeah go for that first . I wasn't entirely sure what uh {disfmarker} who was supposed to be doing that ,
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: but y you go for it .
Marketing: Sure . Um , alright so the way this works , I'm gonna need to plug into PowerPoint ,
Project Manager: {gap} Okay .
Marketing: I'll try and do it as quick as possible .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Um , this is um {disfmarker} I'll just go over your head if that's okay .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I don't think you need the power ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: What's that ?
Industrial Designer: No , that's okay that's okay .
Marketing: I don't need the PowerPoint ?
Industrial Designer: No , the power cord itself .
Marketing: Oh {gap} course ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , so then you have a bit more freedom to {disfmarker}
Marketing: yeah that's true . Let me get that . A bit more .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay ,
Industrial Designer: You you still have your blue fingers .
Marketing: so what this is is a set-up for us to um uh use a kind of a like a {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Is it ?
Industrial Designer: You killed a monster .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: The idea is that I've set up {disfmarker} I've reviewed all of the um the points of discussion from the beginning , and used that as a criteria of evaluation for the um uh for the current design uh th or the plan , and uh so we can review that . Uh I think it's gonna end up being sort of elementary because we're sort we're in n we're not gonna probably use it to change anything but {disfmarker} Doesn't seem like it's going , does it ?
Project Manager: Oh there it is .
Marketing: Yeah , okay great . Uh and I'm gonna write up our results on the board , so this'll be a way for us to go through and decide if we're um {disfmarker} sort of review where we stand with it . Okay , so um {disfmarker} So to sort of b bring together two things , sort of design goals and also the market research that we had , uh when we rate this , one is v high in in succeeding or fitting to our original aim and seven is low ,
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
Marketing: okay . So these i these i th are the {disfmarker} and um we've been asked to uh to collectively rate this , so what we can do is try and just y work on a consensus system so we just come to an agreement .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay ? So the first one uh , stylish look and feel .
Industrial Designer: I rate that pretty highly .
Project Manager: Well yeah , I mean compared to most remote controls you see that's pretty good .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I dunno like a six or something .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: What does anybody else think ?
Marketing: Yeah um me uh my only reservation with it was that we basically went with yellow because it's the company's colour ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: and I don't know if yellow's gonna really be a hit .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: I'm seeing five then .
Marketing: What do you guys think ?
Project Manager: I would say five or six .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yep I'm fine with that .
Project Manager: David ?
Marketing: Okay let's go with five then .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Fi oh uh just actually the opposite .
Industrial Designer: It's one to seven , right ?
Project Manager: Oh yes
Marketing: The {disfmarker}
Project Manager: sorry then
Marketing: So it meant three ,
Project Manager: , then I would say two or three .
Marketing: okay .
Industrial Designer: Wait , what's the scale , one to seven , right ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , one is high .
User Interface: One's high-ish isn't it ? Ah , okay so yeah , two or three .
Marketing: 'Kay {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay , it's upside-down .
Marketing: Let's go with two point five then .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay , um {vocalsound} control {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: high tech innovation .
Project Manager: Well it has the wee jog-dial
Marketing: We had to remove {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , so we've had to remove a few of our features we wanted ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: but jog-dial
Industrial Designer: Say it's more
Project Manager: I'd go with three or four ,
Marketing: 's good .
User Interface: Eight
Industrial Designer: medium ,
Project Manager: maybe three .
User Interface: three .
Industrial Designer: but going towards a little bit higher than medium kind of thing .
Marketing: Okay ,
Project Manager: Yeah about three , okay .
Marketing: three ?
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Okay , um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Style reflects a fruit inspired colour , design .
Industrial Designer: Lemon .
Marketing: I shouldn't have said colour , but just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay , the blue the blue colours and {disfmarker} don't re don't actually represent the colour ,
Project Manager: Well that's kind of {disfmarker}
Marketing: Sorta .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: except for the b the the red button ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: they {disfmarker} because for want of a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: But the yellow , I mean it could be a lemon yellow colour ,
Marketing: Right . Yeah , could be . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , the the yellow is more representative of the colour ,
Project Manager: couldn't it ?
Industrial Designer: but the button itself , the blue can be anything else .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay . Okay so we'll go two .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah ? Okay , and um design is simple to use , simple in features .
Project Manager: Well yeah , I mean it's really basic looking isn't it ?
Marketing: F f yeah f fairly basic ,
Project Manager: I mean I'd give that nearly a one .
Marketing: you guys think ?
User Interface: Yeah {gap} one .
Industrial Designer: Yep , that's fine .
Marketing: Yeah , one ? Okay . {vocalsound} Um , {vocalsound} soft and spongy , have we achieved that ? We've used mostly plastic in the end so it's going to be quite a bit of a compromise for price .
User Interface: Yeah I think it's about five .
Marketing: Five ?
Project Manager: Five ? That's really low .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah well we have to use uh plastic
Project Manager: Yeah I suppose mm 'kay .
Marketing: That's {disfmarker}
User Interface: so it's probably gonna be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um
Industrial Designer: Yeah , company logo .
Marketing: could we have used an entirely rubber frame to it ? Was that an option ?
Industrial Designer: I think it'll be cost prohibitive ,
User Interface: I think I'd probably increase the cost .
Marketing: It would cost more than plastic .
User Interface: We've only got {vocalsound} like what , ten cents left so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Marketing: Okay , logo , we've got it in there , haven't we ?
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: Yep . Gonna have that on the side , aren't we , like there or something ?
Marketing: Huh . And um it's within budget , yep . It is , isn't it ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay , so we can say then that uh out of a possible {disfmarker} or what would be our goal here ?
Project Manager: Out of forty nine , I guess .
Marketing: Yeah , out of forty nine with with zero being the highest . We are at uh two , seven , eight , ten , fifteen point five .
Project Manager: 'S pretty good .
Marketing: So it's pretty good . Translates to something like about approximately seventy two percent efficacy of our original goal . Right ?
Project Manager: Uh yeah .
Marketing: I think 'cause if you turn that into a hundred it would be about
Project Manager: Twice that ,
Marketing: about thirty one ,
Project Manager: about thirty one .
Marketing: and then invert that , it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So yeah ab well yeah about sixty nine , seventy percent yeah .
Marketing: Oh right , about seventy , yeah seventy percent .
Project Manager: It's pretty good .
Marketing: Okay , good . That was just a little formality for us to go through .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yep , oh hundred pound pen . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sorry {vocalsound} {vocalsound} alright .
Project Manager: Nobody saw it , honestly . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} No .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} The cameras did . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: Is that you all have all finished , or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah that's that's me . I did have one other um one other frame I thought , I mean I I d not knowing how we would deal with this information , I thought okay in theory this kind of a process would be about refining our design , revisiting our original goals .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: It's not something I need to p push through , but I thought should we thinking more about the dimensions , um sort of like more of a three dimensional shapes as well as opposed to just that flat um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Could our design involve a series of colours so that it's more of like a line where we have like sort of the , I don't know like the harvest line or the vibrant ,
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: I dunno the {gap} {disfmarker} Whatever just some theme and then we have different tones , lime green , lemon .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: It's just discussion . I mean obviously we can just abandon this , it's fine . I'm just thinking about what we originally set out to do .
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: Um , yep so there . That's all .
Project Manager: Okay , great um are you submitting the the um evaluation criteria or am I ? I don't know what your instructions have been .
Marketing: Um , I think to record it and uh I haven't been asked to submit it yet .
Project Manager: Okay ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: uh just wondering if I need to include it in the minutes ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because if you're submitting it anyway then {disfmarker}
Marketing: I will , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay great .
Industrial Designer: It keeps getting too big .
Project Manager: Cool . Um right , uh well next up then , because we've done finance , is the project evaluation .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay I'm I'm listening I'm just trying to incorporate the logo into the the thing , so I'm playing with the Play-Doh as well .
Project Manager: Oh right , okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Just in case you're wondering {vocalsound} , why is he still playing with the Play-Doh ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Huh .
Industrial Designer: Just about right
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: L_E_G_O_ Lego {vocalsound} . {gap}
User Interface: My leg . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right , okay . Um well do you wanna um just individually say what you think about about these four points and {vocalsound} {disfmarker} or not those four points , my four points , sorry , forgotten that . {vocalsound} You got a different uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: Yep . I like those printer cables that just have the two little butterfly clips like that .
Project Manager: Oh yeah , they're good aren't they , yeah .
Marketing: It's really quick .
Project Manager: Right okay ,
Marketing: To use .
Project Manager: um yeah here we are . Uh as a note we'll do this alphabetically . {vocalsound} Um do you wanna start Andrew ?
Marketing: Sure , um so what is it you're asking of me now ?
Project Manager: I don't know , just um your opinion on those four those four points really and how we used them .
Marketing: Or sort of our work on setting this up .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Well , is it {disfmarker} uh okay I'll just go through your system then . The the room uh is fairly institutional , but um the main thing is , I think um our use of this space is more just to report on things as opposed to be creative and constructive and it would probably help to um have l sort of a cumulative effect of we have ideas and we come back and then the ideas are still in discussion , you know ,
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: as in other words this this room is sort of a centre point of creativity , whereas in reality as we've gone through this , it's not really the centre point of creativity , it's more just a
Project Manager: Well d do you feel though that that you were able to have quite a lot of creative input into the thing ?
Marketing: d debating {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah but that's just the thing is the quest in terms of the the first point there , the room , it feels as though the creativity goes on when we leave , and then we come here and then we kind of put out our ideas and then , you know .
Project Manager: But I don't I don't think it means the room as in this room . I think it means like you know {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh , oh right right , oh right okay room for creativ
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh right I just looked up and saw okay whiteboard , digital pens , the room .
Project Manager: Room . Oh yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: No , of course , yeah .
Project Manager: Well I dunno do you th I think it means um I think it means did you feel you were able to give creative input so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Sorry . Huh . Yeah . Yeah I th okay on th um yeah dif answering the question uh in those terms I'd say that actually there's sort of a tease of creativity because we're asked to work through this , but actually the guidelines are fairly contrived in terms of um okay fashion trends , say fruit and vegetable colour scheme ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: but then i then we're told okay use the co company company colours .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: So what do we do . We're told okay um think in terms of style and look and feel and technology , but build something for twelve and a half pounds ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: so actually the creativity was more more of like a um a f sort of a f formality then an actual {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You feel like you're caged within whatever y
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah within the constraints
Industrial Designer: It's like a balloon in a cage , it can only go so big and not hit the side .
Marketing: the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The constraints do come in very fast .
Project Manager: Okay uh do you know what ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: actually let's take each point and everybody discuss it , I think .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So still on the topic of room for creativity uh next up is Craig .
User Interface: Um I agree with his point it's um it is quite a lot of fun t to go and then you have sort of hit the end then go right , gotta cut everything out 'cause we don't have enough money .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yep .
Industrial Designer: I think another point is that the meetings um are more brainstorming sessions than meetings ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so time is also a very s um strong factor , and structure .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Because for a brainstorming meeting you want a structure that allows you to {disfmarker} allows ideas to get tossed , um to be evaluated , and to be reviewed , and to get feedback and come back .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: And I guess that point about the room not being r very friendly to that , I think that's a very big thing ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and I think the fact that we're wearing these things restricts {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , sure .
Industrial Designer: I feel it 'cause I wear m my glasses , right , and that but that irritates me right
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: it it it does actually you know affect how , w whether you feel comfortable to communicate .
Marketing: Yeah . New creativity .
Industrial Designer: I feel like I'm hiding behind the equipment , rather than the equipment is helping me , and you know .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: So you think a more relaxed atmosphere would be more kind of conducive to creative thought or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: Not not so much an atmosphere , the atmosphere is very relaxed , but the the gear
Project Manager: Yeah , but actual environment ?
Industrial Designer: yeah you know that creates boundaries to that um
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: and and the time the time given also restricts {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Very good . Um what about leadership ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't know if that means like , if I did a good job or something .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't really know .
Marketing: Yeah , well well I mean my sense on that is sort of what kind of guidance and direction , encouragement {disfmarker}
Project Manager: From like your personal coach person and stuff like that , do you think maybe ?
Marketing: Yeah from {disfmarker} and you as well I think , just sort of acting as team leader .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Um yeah I think I think it's
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Excuse me .
Marketing: I think it's good . I mean my personal views on on leadership is that effective effective leadership sort of um gives people a certain room for freedom and delegation , but then to come back with something that they take great ownership and
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: you know , innovative thought with . In in reality I think here the the different elements of leadership such as the the original b briefing and then the personal coach and the and then you know having having you with your {disfmarker} the meeting agenda is actually quite a quite a {vocalsound} quite a con confining framework to work within . And so it is leadership almost to the point of sort of disempowering the the the team member , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh-huh , okay .
Marketing: But it's not bad leadership , it's just sort of s fairly strong , you know . It turns it turns the individual into more of like a um sort of a predetermined mechanism , as opposed to a sort of a free {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So you think maybe a little too controlling or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , oh yeah , without without a doubt .
Industrial Designer: I think controlling is not the right word , I think the interactions are very structured .
Marketing: Yeah maybe not co confining .
Industrial Designer: I think structure is probably what you're saying that , each individual is structured to one particular task , and one parti rather than controlling .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah , yeah . Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I don't think there's a sense of control 'cause all the decisions have been made in terms of a , like a consensus right , we go around and we think about it ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: but that you know process actually says you have to do it in a certain way .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: It doesn't tell you , you know , some ways that you might wanna be a bit more creative in terms of the process you know , not the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Mm . Mm-hmm , mm-hmm . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , uh what about teamwork ?
Marketing: Um did , you wanna comment Craig ?
User Interface: Uh , reckon that was a bit hard because we could only discuss things in the meeting .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: If we could just go up to somebody outside the meeting and have a quick talk with them , that would've been a lot easier .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I think you tried to use the common share folder to to to to communicate ,
Marketing: Fully agree .
Industrial Designer: but um it just comes back to us so slow in the email
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: um it it doesn't have a , you know , a messenger will go {vocalsound} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Did uh did you guys get the email I sent you ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Oh that's alright .
User Interface: Not just yet .
Project Manager: I was wondering if that got there okay .
Marketing: Yeah , got the email .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay , um so um to s to to summarize the teamwork issue , saying that if we could communicate outside the meeting , you know just like quick questions , quick thoughts , whatever , it probably would be bit easier .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think the tools that they were given , the tool set that were given to us are fancy but they don't support collaboration , I think that's the word .
Marketing: Yeah , in it {disfmarker} Mm-hmm ,
Industrial Designer: They don't support the team working together , you know ,
Marketing: mm-hmm , mm-hmm ,
Project Manager: Oh right , okay .
Marketing: exactly . Yeah , I mean if you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: they're still very individual tools .
Marketing: Yeah , I mean sort of taking upon that idea , w the way I see this i is that it's uh the the s the structure in which we've we've approached this whole task is quite contrary to the p principle of teamwork because the the tasks were d d sort of um divided , and then the work went on in isolation
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: I I don't know what you guys did while you were together , maybe that was a bit different ,
Industrial Designer: We had Play-Doh fun {vocalsound} .
Marketing: but um yeah , but um but actually if you if you imagine not entire the completely same task given to us but us said okay , first thing we have to do is come up with um let's say um a design concept , and we sit here together and do it ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: well that's what teamwork is . To s to say okay go off and don't talk to each other , it's actually p sort of predisposes you to quite the contrary of teamwork .
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay .
Marketing: Um not that we haven't done I think the best we could have done .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: I'm not dissatisfied with it .
Project Manager: Right , uh anything else to say on teamwork at all ?
Industrial Designer: No , not really .
Project Manager: Okay , um what about the you know how we used the whiteboard , the digital pens , the projector , stuff like that ? Um did anybody think anything was like really useful ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: anything was pretty un f {vocalsound} unsupportive ?
Marketing: I think the whiteboard , for me , is the kind of thing I would use all the time , but it's um not quite as useful as to us as it could have been , maybe just in the way that we we use it , in the sense that once we have an idea out there or while work was going on in between meetings , that could have been up on a board uh you know as opposed to in like in text .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Um , and then we could then keep our ideas sort of building on that . I know that people who design cars and you know in aviation they quite often just have a simple like fibreglass prototype and it's completely you know um abs abstract from the final product , but they use it as a kind of a context to sort of walk around and puzzle and and point and discuss
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Yeah . And point at ? Yeah .
Marketing: and and and in a way everybody's {disfmarker} as we discuss things in the {disfmarker} in theoretically and out of our notebooks , we're just {disfmarker} we're actually just each of us discussing something that's in each of our own minds . It wasn't until we had this here , you know ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: like at one point I peeked across and looked at Craig's paper and I'm like , now I know what he's thinking 'cause I saw his book .
Project Manager: Ah .
Marketing: But the b the b whiteboard could've actually been this kind of continuing um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So do you think producing a prototype earlier in the process woulda been a good idea ?
Marketing: Think could be , yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think um the the focus of it a lot was the PowerPoint as opposed to the to the whiteboard ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: and I think that m um is also does you know hinder us and things I think .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: It will be cooler to have the whiteboard rather than the the PowerPoint ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: or maybe the whiteboard and the PowerPoint in the same place ,
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: you know in the centre of the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah , because the PowerPoint was provided to us while we had time to prepare , whereas I can imagine if I'd been encouraged to use Paintbrush , for example , or whatever , I would've actually used it ,
Project Manager: Alright .
Marketing: um 'ca you know , just 'cause that's sorta how we {disfmarker} what we were set up to to use while we had our time .
Project Manager: Okay uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think that there were too many PowerPoints in the meetings {vocalsound} . 'Cause the plug-in and the plugging spent {disfmarker} we spent a lot of time doing that .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And a lot of the information on the PowerPoints , I don't think , you know , we needed to actually {disfmarker} it could have , we could have gone through it {gap} verbally ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: No , not quite .
Industrial Designer: especially my slides ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I felt that they just you know {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: as opposed to having to present them .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: What about the digital pens , did you find them easy enough to use ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yep clunky .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Sure , yeah .
User Interface: Oh they're a bit clunky .
Industrial Designer: Agreed . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yep .
Project Manager: Clunky , okay .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Having to tick it before you go off was a bit hindering as well , 'cause you're half way through a thought , and then you run out of paper and then you have to jump .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: I know , I think at the very start of today I like wrote a whole load of stuff , didn't click note on one ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: then went back and wrote one tiny wee thing on the another page , but then did click note , and so I'm quite worried that I've just written over the top of it or something ,
Marketing: Hmm . Hmm . Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
Project Manager: but they'll have my paper anyway um and haven't done that since .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: But I think the pen is v is very intuitive , everybody knows how to use it , we don't {gap} have to worry .
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm ,
Industrial Designer: So I think the pen's good .
Project Manager: yeah .
Marketing: mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: It's about the best thing . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And o on the topic of the technology , it just occurred to me that we actually didn't need to move our computers because each computer has all of the files .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: It just occurred to me that they all {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah we only needed one computer and {disfmarker}
Marketing: We only actually needed one computer .
Project Manager: Yeah , that's true .
Marketing: If there had been a fifth , that coulda just been sitting there ready to go the whole time .
User Interface: Good point .
Industrial Designer: And the computer may not um be conducive to a meeting because um you tend to look at your computer and wanna have the urge to check something , you know ,
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: it's useful but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do you think the computers just provide distraction in a meeting ?
Industrial Designer: I think too many computers are just distracting .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . I know I I like to have things written down in front of me actually , like a lot of the stuff that was emailed to me I ended up you know like writing down there or something so I could look at it really quickly and not have the distraction of all of that ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yep . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: um I don't know about anybody else .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} what else uh any wh I do I'm not really sure what they're looking for when they say new ideas found . Um I don't know is {disfmarker}
User Interface: Is this for the project or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: could you think of like anything else that would have been helpful today at all ?
Marketing: Well , the w main one for me is that uh the process na in a natural f context would not have been interrupted by this necessity to discommunicate ourselves from each other .
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah if we just had uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: So , that's kind of a new idea for me is like just sort of that idea , well you know it's kind of s hard to keep f working forward on a team a team based project when when you're told you must now work away from your team .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah I I dunno I think it was quite good that we had time limits on the meetings because they really could have run on and like my experience with meetings is that they really do , and you can spend a lot of time talking about {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh yeah . Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: The only thing is though like when we had our meeting about the conceptual design , I thought there {disfmarker} maybe another fifteen minutes would have been useful there but um {vocalsound} yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
Project Manager: I really thi i I think maybe if we'd like all been working in the one room , and they just said you know like every hour or something everybody make sure yo you know just have a have a short meeting and then just c
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: just to have like something written down , just like you know a a milestone if you like um rather than having meetings , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: There you go . Um so in closing ,
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: I haven't got my five minutes to go . Thin Oh there it i Five minutes to go . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wonderful . Okay um are the costs within the budget , yes they are . And is the project evaluated , yes it is . So now celebrate {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Great .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And we have Ninja Homer .
Marketing: So it {disfmarker} So now we {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well apparently now I write the final report . What are you guys doing now ?
User Interface: Do we know what the other ones are ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I I don't know .
Project Manager: You dunno ?
User Interface: Oh wow . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: That is lovely . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hey yeah , I said Ninja Homer . {vocalsound}
Marketing: What did you call it ?
Industrial Designer: Ninja Homer . See it looks like Homer Simpson
Marketing: Huh , huh .
Industrial Designer: but it's electronic so it's made in Japan .
Project Manager: So is that j is that just is that just a logo or does it do anything ?
Marketing: Logo .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah it's just a logo .
Project Manager: Just a logo and then like Ninja Homer ,
Marketing: Huh .
Industrial Designer: Ninja Homer . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: right okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: The the red is supposed to represent the whatever else you wanna print on the side of it .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: I think it's quite nice .
Marketing: Fashion technology or something .
Industrial Designer: You can wear Homer ,
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: you can throw Homer when you're frustrated , doh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm , hmm , hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh no , that's cool , it's got {disfmarker} I'm kind of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's clunky .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: I'm slightly gutted that we couldn't get plastic and rubber , I think that would have been nice .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Ah well , maybe from now on real reaction should give us more money .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Oh , I did learn something new , Play-Doh is useful .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: No it is it is .
Project Manager: Play-Doh s
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It is useful and in in in in in in in um conceptualizing , in being creative .
Marketing: Huh . Huh .
Industrial Designer: 'Cause like you say , it's something you can put your hands on and feel and touch and get a sense for .
Project Manager: Really ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Like we were playing with the Play-Doh and the ideas came with the Play-Doh rather than with everything else .
Project Manager: Did they ?
Industrial Designer: You might wanna write that down . It's just , I'm just fiddling with the Play-Doh , and I'm going yeah yeah it's kinda cool .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Play-Doh .
Marketing: No , it's true , yeah .
User Interface: Guess I'd forgot how good s Play-Doh smells .
Project Manager: Yeah , it smells funny doesn't it . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm . And some Play-Dohs are actually I think edible aren't they ?
Industrial Designer: No , all Play-Doh is edible .
Project Manager: Yeah like the stuff for {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think they're all non-toxic 'cause it's aimed for like two-year-olds .
Project Manager: I think it has to be , yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's just wheat , it's the stuff that your mom could make with preservatives and uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah um so to
Marketing: Wow , hmm .
Project Manager: wha what are your summarising words about Play-Doh ?
Industrial Designer: It's helpful to the creative process .
Marketing: Huh .
Industrial Designer: Um it engages all your senses not just your sight , but your sense of feel your sense of touch .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yep .
Industrial Designer: And it helps you to understand
Marketing: Taste . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} dimension as well . I think that that's very helpful because it it starts to pop up ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: whereas on a piece of paper , on a computer , on a board , um even with a three D_ graphic thing it still , it requires a lot of
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm , yep . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: it's not very tangible .
Industrial Designer: yeah {disfmarker} tangible , that's a nice word .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm ,
Industrial Designer: It becomes tangible .
Marketing: mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Tangible . Okay uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm . I don't know if there's anything else we needed to discuss .
Industrial Designer: Nope .
Project Manager: That that's about it really . Just sit still I guess for a little while .
Marketing: Do we retreat to our , to continue our
Industrial Designer: I think we could probably do it here as long as we don't collaborate .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: r reporting or what i
Project Manager: Well I dunno . Um I'm sure the little uh the little thing'll pop up any minute now .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Can we turn off the microphones ?
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah if the meeting's over then yeah I guess so .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
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Professor D: OK . So , uh You can fill those out , uh {pause} after , actually , so So , I got , uh {pause} these results from , uh , Stephane . Also , um , I think that , uh {pause} um {pause} we might hear later today , about other results . I think s that , uh , there were some other very good results that we 're gonna wanna compare to . But , {vocalsound} r our results from other {disfmarker} other places , yeah .
PhD A: I I 'm sorry ? I didn't
Professor D: Um , I got this from you
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: and then I sent a note to Sunil about the {disfmarker} cuz he has been running some other systems
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: other than the {disfmarker} the ICSI OGI one .
PhD A: Oh yeah .
Professor D: So {pause} um , I wan wanna {disfmarker} wanna see what that is . But , uh , you know , so we 'll see what it is comparatively later . But {pause} it looks like , um
PhD A: M yeah .
Professor D: You know most of the time , even {disfmarker} I mean even though it 's true that the overall number for Danish {disfmarker} we didn't improve it If you look at it individually , what it really says is that there 's , um , uh Looks like out of the six cases , between the different kinds of , uh , matching conditions {pause} out of the six cases , there 's basically , um , a couple where it stays about the same , uh , three where it gets better , and one where it gets worse .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: Uh , go ahead .
PhD A: Y Actually , uh , um , for the Danish , there 's still some kind of mystery because , um , um , when we use the straight features , we are not able to get these nice number with the ICSI OGI one , I mean . We don't have this ninety - three seventy - eight , we have eight
PhD E: Eighty - nine forty - four .
PhD A: yeah . Uh , so , uh , that 's probably something wrong with the features that we get from OGI . Uh , and Sunil is working on {disfmarker} on trying to {disfmarker} to check everything .
Professor D: Oh , and {disfmarker} and we have a little time on that {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} actually so
PhD A: Hmm ?
Professor D: We have a little bit of time on that , actually .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: We have a day or so , so When {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when do you folks leave ?
PhD A: Uh , Sunday .
Professor D: Sunday ? So So , uh Yeah , until Saturday midnight , or something , we have W we {disfmarker} we have time , yeah . Well , that would be good . That 'd be good .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah . Uh , and , you know , i u when whenever anybody figures it out they should also , for sure , email Hynek because Hynek will be over there {vocalsound} telling people {vocalsound} what we did , so he should know .
PhD A: Mmm . Yeah .
Professor D: Good , OK . So , um So , we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll hold off on that a little bit . I mean , even with these results as they are , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's really not that bad . But {disfmarker} but , uh , um And it looks like the overall result as they are now , even without , you know , any {disfmarker} any bugs being fixed is that , uh , on the {disfmarker} the other tasks , we had this average of , uh , forty uh {disfmarker} nine percent , or so , improvement . And here we have somewhat better than that than the Danish , and somewhat worse than that on the German , but I mean , it sounds like , uh , one way or another , the methods that we 're doing can reduce the error rate from {disfmarker} from mel ceptrum {pause} down by , you know {pause} a fourth of them to , uh , a half of them . Somewhere in there , depending on the {pause} exact case . So So that 's good . I mean , I think that , uh , one of the things that Hynek was talking about was understanding what was in the other really good proposals and {disfmarker} and trying to see if what should ultimately be proposed is some , uh , combination of things . Um , if , uh {disfmarker} Cuz there 's things that they are doing {pause} there that we certainly are not doing . And there 's things that we 're doing that {pause} they 're not doing . And {disfmarker} and they all seem like good things .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: So
PhD E: Mmm , yeah .
PhD C: How much {disfmarker} how much better was the best system than ours ?
Professor D: So Well , we don't know yet .
PhD C: Mmm .
Professor D: Uh , I mean , first place , there 's still this thing to {disfmarker} to work out , and second place {disfmarker} second thing is that the only results that we have so far from before were really development set results .
PhD C: Oh , OK .
Professor D: So , I think in this community that 's of interest . It 's not like everything is being pinned on the evaluation set . But , um , for the development set , our best result was a little bit short of fifty percent . And the best result of any system was about fifty - four , where these numbers are the , uh , relative , uh , reduction in , uh , word error rate .
PhD C: Oh , OK .
Professor D: And , um , the other systems were , uh , somewhat lower than that . There was actually {disfmarker} there was much less of a huge range than there was in Aurora one . In Aurora one there were {disfmarker} there were systems that ba basically didn't improve things .
PhD C: Hmm .
Professor D: And here the {disfmarker} the worst system {pause} still reduced the error rate by thirty - three percent , or something , in development set .
PhD C: Oh , wow .
Professor D: So {disfmarker} so , you know , sort of everybody is doing things between , well , roughly a third of the errors , and half the errors being eliminated , {vocalsound} uh , and varying on different test sets and so forth .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: So I think Um {pause} It 's probably a good time to look at what 's really going on and seeing if there 's a {disfmarker} there 's a way to combine the best ideas while at the same time not blowing up the amount of , uh , resources used , cuz that 's {disfmarker} that 's critical for this {disfmarker} this test .
PhD C: Do we know anything about {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who 's was it that had the lowest on the dev set ?
Professor D: Um , uh , the , uh , the there were two systems that were put forth by a combination of {disfmarker} of , uh , French Telecom and Alcatel . And , um they {disfmarker} they differed in some respects , but they e em one was called the French Telecom Alcatel System the other was called the Alcatel French Telecom System , {vocalsound} uh , which is the biggest difference , I think . But {disfmarker} but there 're {disfmarker} there 're {disfmarker} there 're some other differences , too . Uh , and {disfmarker} and , uh , they both did very well ,
PhD C: Uh - huh .
Professor D: you know ? So , {vocalsound} um , my impression is they also did very well on {disfmarker} on the {disfmarker} the , uh , evaluation set , but , um , I {disfmarker} I we haven't seen {disfmarker} you 've - you haven't seen any final results for that
PhD C: And they used {disfmarker} the main thing that {disfmarker} that they used was spectral subtraction ?
Professor D: yeah .
PhD C: Or
Professor D: There is a couple pieces to it . There 's a spectral subtraction style piece {disfmarker} it was basically , you know , Wiener filtering . And then {disfmarker} then there was some p some modification of the cepstral parameters , where they {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah , actually , something that 's close to cepstral mean subtraction . But , uh , the way the mean is adapted {disfmarker} um , it 's signal dependent . I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm , uh So , basically , the mean is adapted during speech and not during silence .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD A: But it 's very close to {disfmarker} to cepstral mean subtraction .
Professor D: But some people have done {vocalsound} {pause} exactly that sort of thing , of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} and the {disfmarker} I mean it 's not {disfmarker} To {disfmarker} to look in {pause} speech only , to try to m to measure these things during speech ,
PhD A: Yeah , yeah .
Professor D: that 's p that 's not that uncommon . But i it it {disfmarker} so it looks like they did some {disfmarker} some , uh , reasonable things , uh , and they 're not things that we did , precisely . We did unreasonable things , {vocalsound} which {disfmarker} because we like to try strange things , and {disfmarker} and , uh , and our things worked too .
PhD C: Hmm .
Professor D: And so , um , uh , it 's possible that some combination of these different things that were done would be the best thing to do . But the only caveat to that is that everybody 's being real conscious of how much memory and how much CPU they 're using
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: because these , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh , standards are supposed to go on cell phones with m moderate resources in both respects .
PhD C: Did anybody , uh , do anything with the models as a {disfmarker} an experiment ? Or
Professor D: Uh , they didn't report it , if they did .
PhD C: N nobody reported it ?
Professor D: Yeah . I think everybody was focused elsewhere . Um , now , one of the things that 's nice about what we did is , we do have a {disfmarker} a , uh {disfmarker} a filtering , which leads to a {disfmarker} a , uh {disfmarker} a reduction in the bandwidth in the modulation spectrum , which allows us to downsample . So , uh , as a result of that we have a reduced , um , transmission rate for the bits .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: That was misreported the first time out . It {disfmarker} it said the same amount because for convenience sake in the particular way that this is being tested , uh , they were repeating the packets . So it was {disfmarker} they were s they {disfmarker} they had twenty - four hundred bits per second , but they were literally creating forty - eight hundred bits per second , {vocalsound} um , even though y it was just repeated .
PhD C: Oh . Mm - hmm . Right .
Professor D: So , uh , in practice
PhD C: So you could 've had a repeat count in there or something .
Professor D: Well , n I mean , this was just a ph phoney thing just to {disfmarker} to fit into the {disfmarker} the software that was testing the errors {disfmarker} channel errors and so on .
PhD C: Oh . Oh .
Professor D: So {disfmarker} so in reality , if you put this {disfmarker} this system in into , uh , the field , it would be twenty - four hundred bits per second , not forty - eight hundred . So , um , so that 's a nice feature of what {disfmarker} what we did . Um , but , um , well , we still have to see how it all comes out .
PhD C: Hmm .
Professor D: Um , and then there 's the whole standards process , which is another thing altogether .
PhD C: When is the development set {disfmarker} I mean , the , uh , uh , test set results due ? Like the day before you leave or something ?
Professor D: Uh , probably the day after they leave , but we 'll have to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we 'll have to stop it the day before {comment} we leave .
PhD A: Yeah , yeah . So
PhD C: Huh .
Professor D: I think tha I think the {disfmarker} the meeting is on the thirteenth or something .
PhD A: Yeah , this Tuesday , yeah .
Professor D: And , uh , they , uh Right . And the {disfmarker} the , uh , results are due like the day before the meeting or something . So
PhD A: Yeah , probably , well
Professor D: I th I think {disfmarker} I I think they are ,
PhD A: Yeah , well
Professor D: yeah . So {pause} {vocalsound} um , since we have a bit farther to travel than {vocalsound} some of the others , {vocalsound} uh , we 'll have to get done a little quicker . But , um , I mean , it 's just tracing down these bugs . I mean , just exactly this sort of thing of , you know , why {disfmarker} why these features seem to be behaving differently , uh , in California than in Oregon .
PhD C: Hmm .
Professor D: Might have something to do with electricity shortage . Uh , we didn't {disfmarker} we didn't have enough electrons here and Uh , but , um Uh , I think , you know , the main reason for having {disfmarker} I mean , it only takes w to run the {disfmarker} the two test sets in {disfmarker} just in computer time is just a day or so , right ?
PhD A: Yeah ,
Professor D: So
PhD A: it 's very short interval .
Professor D: yeah . So , I think the who the whole reason for having as long as we have , which was {pause} like a week and a half , is {disfmarker} is because of bugs like that . So Huh So , we 're gonna end up with these same kind of sheets that have the {pause} the percentages and so on just for the {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah , so there are two more columns in the sheets ,
Professor D: Oh , I guess it 's the same sheets ,
PhD A: two . Yeah , it 's the same sheets ,
Professor D: yeah , yeah {disfmarker}
PhD A: yeah .
Professor D: just with the missing columns filled in .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah . Well , that 'll be good . So , I 'll dis I 'll disregard these numbers . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's good .
PhD A: So , Hynek will try to push for trying to combine , uh , different things ? Or Hmm ?
Professor D: Uh , well that 's {pause} um yeah I mean , I think the question is " Is there {disfmarker} is there some advantage ? " I mean , you could just take the best system and say that 's the standard . But the thing is that if different systems are getting at good things , um , a again within the constraint of the resources , if there 's something simple that you can do Now for instance , uh , it 's , I think , very reasonable to have a standard for the terminal 's side and then for the server 's side say , " Here 's a number of things that could be done . " So , um , everything that we did could probably just be added on to what Alcatel did , and i it 'd probably work pretty well with them , too . So , um , uh , that 's one {disfmarker} one aspect of it . And then on the terminal 's side , I don't know how much , um , memory and {disfmarker} and CPU it takes , but it seems like the filtering {pause} Uh , I mean , the VAD stuff they both had , right ? And , um , so {disfmarker} and they both had some kind of on - line normalization , right ?
PhD A: Uh , yeah .
Professor D: Of sorts , yeah ? So {disfmarker} so , it seems like the main different there is the {disfmarker} is the , uh , filtering . And the filtering {disfmarker} I think if you can {disfmarker} shouldn't take a lot of memory to do that Uh , and I also wouldn't think the CPU , uh , would be much either for that part . So , if you can {disfmarker} if you can add those in {pause} um {pause} then , uh , you can cut the data rate in half .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: So it seems like the right thing to do is to {disfmarker} on the {disfmarker} on the terminal 's side , take what they did , if it {disfmarker} if it does seem to generalize well to German and Danish , uh , take what they did add in a filter , and add in some stuff on the server 's side and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and that 's probably a reasonable standard . Um {pause} Uh
PhD A: They are working on this already ? Because {disfmarker} yeah , Su - Sunil told me that he was trying already to put some kind of , uh , filtering in the {vocalsound} {pause} France Telecom .
Professor D: Yeah , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's what That would be ideal {disfmarker} would be is that they could , you know , they could actually show that , in fact , a combination of some sort , {vocalsound} uh , would work even better than what {disfmarker} what any of the systems had . And , um , then it would {disfmarker} it would , uh {pause} be something to {disfmarker} to discuss in the meeting . But , uh , not clear what will go on . Um , I mean , on the one hand , um , sometimes people are just anxious to get a standard out there . I mean , you can always have another standard after that , but {vocalsound} this process has gone on for a while on {disfmarker} already and {disfmarker} and people might just wanna pick something and say , " OK , this is it . " And then , that 's a standard . Uh , standards are always optional . It 's just that , uh , if you disobey them , then you risk not being able to sell your product , or {pause} {vocalsound} Uh {pause} um And people often work on new standards while an old standard is in place and so on . So it 's not final even if they declared a standard . The other hand , they might just say they just don't know enough yet to {disfmarker} to declare a standard . So you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you will be {disfmarker} you will become experts on this and know more {disfmarker} far more than me about the tha this particular standards process once you {disfmarker} you go to this meeting . So , be interested in hearing . So , uh , I 'd be , uh , interested in hearing , uh , your thoughts now I mean you 're almost done . I mean , you 're done in the sense that , um , you may be able to get some new features from Sunil , and we 'll re - run it . Uh , but other than that , you 're {disfmarker} you 're basically done , right ? So , uh , I 'm interested in hearing {disfmarker} hearing your thoughts about {pause} where you think we should go from this .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: I mean , we tried a lot of things in a hurry , and , uh , if we can back off from this now and sort of take our time with something , and not have doing things quickly be quite so much the constraint , what {disfmarker} what you think would be the best thing to do .
PhD A: Uh , well Hmm Well , first , uh , to really have a look at {disfmarker} at the speech {pause} {vocalsound} from these databases because , well , we tried several thing , but we did not really look {vocalsound} at what what 's happening , and {vocalsound} where is the noise , and
Professor D: OK .
PhD A: Eh
Professor D: It 's a novel idea . Look at the data . OK .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: Or more generally , I guess , what {disfmarker} what is causing the degradation .
PhD A: Yeah , yeah . Actually , there is one thing that {disfmarker} well {pause} Um , generally we {disfmarker} we think that {vocalsound} most of the errors are within phoneme classes , and so I think it could be interesting to {disfmarker} to see if it {disfmarker} I don't think it 's still true when we add noise , and {vocalsound} so we have {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess the confusion ma the confusion matrices are very different when {disfmarker} when we have noise , and when it 's clean speech . And probably , there is much more {pause} between classes errors for noisy speech .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: And {vocalsound} so , um Yeah , so perhaps we could have a {disfmarker} a large gain , eh , just by looking at improving the , uh , recognition , not of phonemes , but of phoneme classes , simply .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: And {vocalsound} which is a s a s a simpler problem , perhaps , but {disfmarker} which is perhaps important for noisy speech .
Professor D: The other thing that strikes me , just looking at these numbers is , just taking the best cases , I mean , some of these , of course , even with all of our {disfmarker} our wonderful processing , still are horrible kinds of numbers . But just take the best case , the well - matched {pause} uh , German case after {disfmarker} er well - matched Danish after we {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: the kind of numbers we 're getting are about eight or nine {pause} uh {pause} p percent {pause} error {pause} per digit .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor D: This is obviously not usable ,
PhD A: No .
Professor D: right ?
PhD A: Sure .
Professor D: I mean , if you have ten digits for a phone number {comment} I mean , every now and then you 'll get it right . I mean , it 's {disfmarker} it 's , uh , {vocalsound} um So , I mean , the other thing is that , uh {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} a and {disfmarker} and also , um {pause} part of what 's nice about this is that this is , uh , {vocalsound} um {pause} a realistic {disfmarker} almost realistic database . I mean , it 's still not people who are really trying to accomplish something , but {disfmarker} but , uh , within the artificial setup , it isn't noise artificially added , you know , simulated , uh , additive noise .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: It 's real noise condition . And , um , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the training {disfmarker} the training , I guess , is always done on the close talking
PhD A: No , actually {disfmarker} actually the well - matched condition {pause} is {pause} still quite di still quite difficult .
Professor D: No ?
PhD A: I mean , it 's {disfmarker} they have all these data from the close mike and from the distant mike , {vocalsound} from different driving condition , open window , closed window ,
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD A: and they take all of this and they take seventy percent , I think , for training and thirty percent for testing .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: So , training is done {vocalsound} on different conditions and different microphones , and testing also is done {pause} on different microphone and conditions . So , probably if we only take the close microphones , {vocalsound} I guess the results should be much much better than this .
Professor D: I see .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: Oh , OK ,
PhD A: Uh
Professor D: that explains it partially . Wha - what about i in {disfmarker} so the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah , so {disfmarker} there is this , the mismatched is , um {pause} the same kind of thing ,
Professor D: go ahead .
PhD A: but {pause} the driving conditions , I mean the speed and the kind of road , is different for training and testing , is that right ?
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD A: And the last condition is close microphone for training and distant for testing . Yeah .
Professor D: Uh , OK ,
PhD A: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} s so {disfmarker}
Professor D: so I see . So , yeah , so the high {disfmarker} so the {disfmarker} right {disfmarker} so the highly mismatched {vocalsound} case {pause} is in some sense a good model for what we 've been , you know , typically talking about when we talk about additive noise in {disfmarker} And so {disfmarker} and i i k it does correspond to a realistic situation in the sense that , {vocalsound} um , people might really be trying to , uh , call out telephone numbers or some or something like that , in {disfmarker} in their cars
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: and they 're trying to connect to something .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor D: Um
PhD A: Actually , yeah , it 's very close to clean speech training because , well , because the close microphone {vocalsound} and noisy speech testing ,
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD A: yeah . Mmm .
Professor D: Yeah . And the well - matched condition {pause} is what you might imagine that you might be able to approach , if you know that this is the application . You 're gonna record a bunch on people in cars and so forth , and do these training . And then , uh , when y you sell it to somebody , they will be a different person with a different car , and so on . So it 's {disfmarker} this is a an optim somewhat optimistic view on it , uh , so , you know , the real thing is somewhere in between the two .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: Uh , uh , but
PhD A: But the {disfmarker} I mean , the {pause} th th
Professor D: Even the optimistic one is
PhD A: it doesn't work .
Professor D: Yeah ,
PhD A: It {disfmarker}
Professor D: right . Right , it doesn't work . So , in a way , that 's , you know , that 's sort of the dominant thing is that even , say on the development set stuff that we saw , the , uh , the numbers that , uh , that Alcatel was getting when choosing out the best single numbers , {vocalsound} it was just {disfmarker} you know , it wasn't good enough for {disfmarker} for {pause} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} for a real system .
PhD A: Mmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor D: You {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you , {vocalsound} um So , uh , we still have stuff to do .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: Uh , and , uh I don't know So , looking at the data , where , you know {disfmarker} what 's the {disfmarker} what 's {disfmarker} what 's th what 's characteristic i e yeah , I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good thing . Does a any you have any thoughts about what else {vocalsound} y you 're thinking that you didn't get to that you would like to do if you had more time ? Uh
PhD E: Oh , f a lot of thing . Because we trying a lot of s {pause} thing , and we doesn't work , {vocalsound} we remove these . Maybe {vocalsound} we trying again with the articulatory feature . I don't know exactly because we tried {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} one experiment that doesn't work . Um , forgot it , something {pause} I don't know exactly
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: because , tsk {comment} {vocalsound} maybe do better some step the general , {vocalsound} eh , diagram .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: I don't know exactly s to think what we can improve .
Professor D: Yeah , cuz a lot of time it 's true , there were a lot of times when we 've tried something and it didn't work right away , even though we had an intuition that there should be something there . And so then we would just stop it . Um And , uh , one of the things {disfmarker} I don't remember the details on , but I remember at some point , when you were working with a second stream , and you tried a low - pass filtering to cepstrum , in some case you got {disfmarker}
PhD E: MSG Yeah .
Professor D: Well , but it was {comment} an MSG - like thing , but it wasn't MSG , right ? Uh , you {disfmarker} y I think in some case you got some little improvement , but it was , you know , sort of a small improvement , and it was a {disfmarker} a big added complication , so you dropped it . But , um , that was just sort of one try , right ? You just took one filter , threw it there ,
PhD A: Yeah ,
Professor D: right ? And it seems to me that , um , if that is an important idea , which , you know , might be , that one could work at it for a while , as you 're saying .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor D: And , uh Uh , and you had , you know , you had the multi - band things also , and , you know , there was issue of that .
PhD A: Yeah ,
Professor D: Um , Barry 's going to be , uh , continuing working on multi - band things as well .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: We were just talking about , um , {vocalsound} some , uh , some work that we 're interested in . Kind of inspired by the stuff by Larry Saul with the , uh {pause} uh , learning articulatory feature in {disfmarker} I think , in the case of his paper {disfmarker} with sonorance based on , uh , multi - band information where you have a {disfmarker} a combination of gradient learning an and , uh , EM .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Um , and {pause} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um , so , I think that , you know , this is a , uh {disfmarker} this is a neat data set . Um , and then , uh , as we mentioned before , we also have the {disfmarker} the new , uh , digit set coming up from recordings in this room . So , there 's a lot of things to work with . Um and , uh what I like about it , in a way , is that , uh , the results are still so terrible . Uh {pause} {vocalsound} Uh {pause} {vocalsound} I mean , they 're much better than they were , you know . We 're talking about thirty to sixty percent , uh , error rate reduction . That 's {disfmarker} that 's really great stuff to {disfmarker} to do that in relatively short time . But even after that it 's still , you know , so poor that {disfmarker} that , uh , no one could really use it . So , um I think that 's great that {disfmarker} because {disfmarker} and y also because again , it 's not something {disfmarker} sometimes we 've gotten terrible results by taking some data , and artificially , you know , convolving it with some room response , or something {disfmarker} we take a very {disfmarker} Uh , at one point , uh , Brian and I went downstairs into the {disfmarker} the basement where it was {disfmarker} it was in a hallway where it was very reverberant and we {disfmarker} we made some recordings there . And then we {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we , uh {disfmarker} uh , made a simulation of the {disfmarker} of the room acoustics there and {disfmarker} and applied it to other things ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: and uh But it was all pretty artificial , and {disfmarker} and , you know , how often would you really try to have your most crucial conversations in this very reverberant hallway ? Um {pause} So , uh {pause} This is what 's nice about the Aurora data and the data here , is that {disfmarker} is that it 's sort of a realistic room situation {pause} uh , acoustics {disfmarker} acoustic situation , both terms in noise and reflections , and so on and n n And , uh , uh , with something that 's still relatively realistic , it 's still very very hard to do very well . So Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah , so d well Actually , this is {disfmarker} tha that 's why we {disfmarker} well , it 's a different kind of data . We 're not {disfmarker} we 're not used to work with this kind of data . That 's why we should have a loo more closer look at what 's going on .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Um Yeah . So this would be the first thing , and then , of course , try to {disfmarker} well , {vocalsound} kind of debug what was wrong , eh , when we do Aurora test on the MSG {pause} particularly , and on the multi - band .
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
PhD A: Uh
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah . No , I {disfmarker} I think there 's lots of {disfmarker} lots of good things to do with this . So Um So let 's {disfmarker} I guess {pause} You were gonna say something else ? Oh , OK . What do you think ?
PhD C: About
Professor D: Anything
PhD C: About other experiments ? Uh , now , I 'm interested in , um , uh {pause} looking at the experiments where you use , um {pause} uh , data from multiple languages to train the neural net . And I don't know how far , or if you guys even had a chance to try that , but {pause} that would be some it 'd be interesting to me .
PhD A: Yeah , but
Professor D: S b
PhD A: Again , it 's the kind of {disfmarker} of thing that , uh , we were thin thinking {disfmarker} thinking that it would work , but it didn't work . And , eh , so there is kind of {disfmarker} of {pause} not a bug , but something wrong in what we are doing , perhaps .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD C: Right . Right .
PhD A: Uh , something wrong , perhaps in the {disfmarker} just in the {disfmarker} the fact that the labels are {disfmarker}
PhD C: Right .
PhD A: well
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: What worked best is the hand - labeled data .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Um Uh , so , yeah . I don't know if we can get some hand - labeled data from other languages .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD A: It 's not so easy to find .
PhD C: Right .
PhD A: But {pause} that would be something interesting t to {disfmarker} to see .
PhD C: Yeah , yeah .
Professor D: Yeah . Also , uh , {vocalsound} I mean , there was just the whole notion of having multiple nets that were trained on different data . So one form of different data was {disfmarker} is from different languages , but the other Well , i in fact , uh , m in those experiments it wasn't so much combining multiple nets , it was a single net that had different
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor D: So , first thing is would it be better if they were multiple nets , for some reason ? Second thing is , never mind the different languages , just having acoustic conditions rather than training them all up in one , would it be helpful to have different ones ? So , um That was a question that was kind of raised by Mike Shire 's thesis , and on {disfmarker} in that case in terms of reverberation . Right ? That {disfmarker} that sometimes it might be better to do that . But , um , {vocalsound} I don't think we know for sure . So , um Right . So , next week , we , uh , won't meet because you 'll be in Europe . Whe - when are you two getting back ?
PhD E: Um , I 'm
PhD A: You on Friday or S on Saturday or {pause} ?
PhD E: Sunday
PhD A: S oh yeah , Sunday , yeah .
PhD E: because it 's {disfmarker} it 's less expensive , the price {disfmarker} the price the ticket .
PhD C:
Professor D: Yeah , that 's right . You 've gotta S have a Saturday overnight , right ?
PhD A: I 'll be back on Tuesday .
Professor D: Tuesday .
PhD C: Where {disfmarker} where 's the meeting ?
Professor D: Uh , Amsterdam , I think , yeah ?
PhD A: Yeah , Amsterdam .
PhD C: Uh - huh .
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah , yeah . Yep . Um {pause} So , we 'll skip next week , and we 'll meet two weeks from now . And , uh , I guess the main topic will be , uh , you telling us what happened .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: Uh , so Yeah , well , if we don't have an anything else to discuss , we should , uh , turn off the machine and then say the real nasty things .
PhD C: Should we do digits first ?
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad B: Oh , yeah , digits .
Professor D: Oh yeah , digits ! Yeah . Good point . Yeah , good thinking . Why don't you go ahead .
PhD C: OK . OK .
| |
doc_90
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User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So I see all everybody's here , 'kay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: And we can start meeting .
User Interface: Okay {vocalsound} .
Marketing: What's the agenda for this meeting ?
Project Manager: The {disfmarker} I will uh present here agenda with with with with slides to you .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Um as you can see here .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Perfect .
Project Manager: So first uh just to mention I will take notes uh of this meeting
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and uh I will try to work them out and give them to you . I've also made notes of the previous meeting and um I was about to send them you but {vocalsound} then uh I had to go to this uh meeting so you will get them too uh
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Next .
Project Manager: Um .
Industrial Designer: So y you are the secretary also .
Project Manager: Yes . Indeed .
Industrial Designer: Right ? Okay .
Project Manager: Then I hope you all have uh worked out {vocalsound} some some uh {vocalsound} some some presentations about uh about well you the the task given to you in the previous meeting .
Industrial Designer: Perfectly yeah yeah of course uh-huh .
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Um . W We will uh in a minute we will uh {vocalsound} start with them . Um , we will see in which order we will handle them of . Um then I will uh bring in some some some new requirements I I got uh from the uh account manager , I try to work them out , they were quite abstract , and we can have maybe have com some discussion about it . Uh Um about the functions
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and {disfmarker} Well in this meeting we should really {vocalsound} try to reach a decision about the target group and the functionality of the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: You mean the social target group who we wants to target ?
Project Manager: Yes I mean well yes w who are we going to uh to well to sell this ,
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Oh the customers , okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: the customers , indeed yes . Think that's that's important matter .
Marketing: That's the big question yeah .
Project Manager: Uh . {vocalsound} So {vocalsound} And then uh we will close this meeting uh
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and after this meeting we'll uh we'll have a lunch . Good . Um . Maybe um why uh Anna can you c do you have a presentations ?
Marketing: No , I don't .
Project Manager: You don't have presentation ?
Marketing: I wasn't . No .
Project Manager: Uh you want a table to to uh
Marketing: I c I can talk about it but I have no slides or anything .
Project Manager: Yes yes maybe maybe you can uh can just talk about it or maybe you can use the whiteboard if necessary um .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Well I've just been um presented with some research we've done in a small focus group so , a hundred people , just asked them about their remote control usage habits and what they want in a remote control . Um . It's {disfmarker} probably can't email this to you , I've just got a web page with some data on it . Um basically it's saying that users generally dislike the look and feel of their remote controls . Um seventy five u seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly . Um .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . Um . Current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . Uh seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot , so they use their remote control quite frequently while they're watching television . Uh . Fifty percent of users say that they only use ten percent of the buttons , so they've got a remote control with a lot of functionality but really most of the time they only use a small part of that .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Um .
Project Manager: Do you Do you have this uh information on the web page you said ?
Marketing: I have an a web page yes .
Project Manager: Yes , mayb maybe you can can send an email to me later uh . Uh about this .
Marketing: Yep . Yep , sure . Mm-hmm . So basically um there's a breakdown of how much they use the different functions on a rem remote control . Um , power and volume selection are only used a few times within this uh per hour . Um , channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times um {vocalsound} and then there's things like channel settings , audio settings , which are only used very infrequently .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Um . Teletext is used um fourteen times in the hour , so it is used but not nearly as much as the channel selection is used . Um .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: An interesting thing that this report has brought up is that um fifty fifty percent of users report that the remote control gets lost a lot of the time in the room , so some way of some way of locating the remote control would be very useful to a lot of users . Um .
Project Manager: Yes yes , I have {vocalsound} that too {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Thirty four percent said it takes too long to learn to use a remote control , they want something that's easier to use straight away , more intuitive perhaps .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Um .
Industrial Designer: It's it's easy to learn or how do you say it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Thirty four percent said it took too much time to learn to use a new one . Yep .
Industrial Designer: Okay too much time to learn . Okay .
Marketing: Um . And thirty {disfmarker} twenty six percent said remote controls are bad for R_S_I_ .
Industrial Designer: Not enough {gap}
Marketing: I don't know how we'd go about combating that .
User Interface: {gap} . What do you mean there ?
Marketing: For R_S_I_ ? Respet Repetitive strain injury .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: So . But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm . They think that or do their doctor the doctor says ?
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But it's it's the opinion of the uh of the users huh ?
Marketing: Yeah . That's what the report says yeah .
Project Manager: So mm .
Marketing: Um and then it's got a demographic breakdown on {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Maybe y y you cannot put this webpage online on the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh I should be able to actually , if I email it to you now .
User Interface: You can disconnect it there
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You can maybe just just {disfmarker}
User Interface: no ?
Marketing: Oh no , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Ah it's {vocalsound} it okay it's a webpage on the C_ it's a file
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: okay .
Marketing: Um , s hang on .
Industrial Designer: O otherwise you yeah . You can connect this one .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Then you can connect this one or this one yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: All to your computer .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Well .
Industrial Designer: So these are important numbers that Matthew and I need to take into account for our functional um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh yeah .
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: Oh I need to muck around with this . It's probably easier if you put it on yours and then I'll just email it to you . It's just a web link .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah {gap}
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah these numbers have have to be have to be taken into account for the uh both yeah user interface and functional design .
User Interface: Hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: One thing it goes on to talk about , which is interesting , is the {disfmarker} hang on a minute .
Industrial Designer: Because if there are many numbers and we need to select to to constraint uh our design based on what is more important .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yep .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um , one thing is interesting is talking about um speech recognition in a remote control .
Industrial Designer: Speech recognition in {disfmarker}
Marketing: And who would pay more for that and whether people would find it useful .
Project Manager: D do you have numbers o o on that ?
Industrial Designer: Ah okay .
Marketing: Yes , I'll just get this up .
Industrial Designer: So that we don't {disfmarker} Do we not need any button on the remote control {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well potentially yeah , um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it would be all based on speech .
Marketing: I think even for interesti
Industrial Designer: Okay . Interesting idea .
Marketing: yeah I think that would not work so well . You wanna have both options .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Well it would it would be a solution for uh when your remote control is lost ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: I mean when it has speech recognition then uh i then it doesn't matter where it is , my {disfmarker} well it's {disfmarker} we should be in range ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: or maybe it can respond and produce sound , so say where it is . But the these are all quite fancy features
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: I'm not sure whether we will we can make this for {vocalsound} for twelve Euro fi and fifty cents {vocalsound} .
User Interface: Well it would be f
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: No you can't .
Industrial Designer: And we don't know where the state of the art of speech recognition is , maybe you know ?
User Interface: Oh . Well , {vocalsound} it depends you know like there is uh it's a very small vocabulary that you want to do the operations like you want to say on , off , one , two , twenty three ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: But it's quite noisy if there is the T_V_ uh shouting .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yes ,
User Interface: It's it's going to be li
Project Manager: that that that that's mm .
User Interface: it's not going to be s so easy but u usually it's going to be more of an isolated case
Project Manager: Do you have some more important facts
User Interface: but it's {disfmarker} but I don't know with twenty fi
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: or can we go to the next presentation ?
Industrial Designer: Okay . So
Marketing: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: you had to to to summarise maybe the {disfmarker}
Marketing: This is now talking about um who would pay for speech recognition in a remote control , who would pay more for it , um . Ninety percent of the fifteen to twenty five year old market said that they would pay more , it goes down from there , seventy six percent for twenty five to thirty five , thirty five percent for thirty five to forty five , um twenty two percent for forty five to fifty five and then eight percent for fifty five to sixty five .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Okay it's uh decline .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: But we sh
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Decline with age , mm .
Marketing: Yeah , it really depends where we're gonna be targeting this product , um ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: which we'll be talking about later I think .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Yes . We will talk about it later . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Did you get the email ?
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yep , that one .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Just follow that link .
Industrial Designer: {gap} I thi {vocalsound} You us
Marketing: It'll be in a different window , yep .
Industrial Designer: yeah yeah .
Marketing: That's {disfmarker} left {disfmarker} that one .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Okay perfect . .. .
Marketing: Mm . So that's the figure that I was just talking about there , with the different demographics .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Another thing it's talking about there is the L_C_D_ screen but there's no figures apparently on that .
Project Manager: Mm . Okay . {vocalsound} um
Industrial Designer: Mm 'kay .
Project Manager: Uh maybe uh Mael c c can you give uh uh your presentation uh ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Mm I okay
Project Manager: Oh ,
Industrial Designer: I stay {disfmarker}
Project Manager: this is {disfmarker}
User Interface: Now you can move I think yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , y y you can move , uh .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I can move as far as {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Maybe I take your chair ?
Project Manager: Yes . You can you can sa take my chair .
Industrial Designer: I okay {vocalsound} .
User Interface: It's a channel selection , a module {gap} , this and this function ,
Marketing: Sorry ? Oh .
User Interface: go to the {gap} . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So I think as everybody knows uh I'm the uh Industrial Designer . And uh in this presentation uh this group presentation um {vocalsound} is gonna focus on the working design of the the remote control . Um I'd like first to give a quick a very simple introduction , how does it work , so that everybody knows even if you don't have a very uh technical background uh what is it because I think in the product it is important .
Marketing: Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So basically um the basic function of a remote control is to send uh messages to another system that is fixed .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And so an energy source feeds an integrated circuit , the chip , that can compose messages , usually uh through a um infrared bit
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and uh the user interface controls the chip and accordingly the the messages , alright . So my method for um designing the yeah the work design uh yeah first {vocalsound} the the main point is that I would wish to to make a really functional product . I would prefer to have very functional um capabilities rather than fancy stuff that in fact is not used and doesn't work .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: So for that yeah as it's important to take into account the user requirements from the Marketing uh Expert uh Anna
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and um w to to we should agree on what are the technical functions uh for this remote control and I show you the the working design . So um basically uh here is a really large view of what we want {vocalsound} . Uh we want an on off button , it can be uh {disfmarker} it's simple but it's it's important , and also uh {gap} the to both channels as well as other buttons that come after ,
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: right . So the components I quickly draw here , is that in this part you have the remote control the the sender and on the other part the receiver so that's {disfmarker} my method is um will be to well my aim would be to uh design the and choose the chips and the infrared um components to build the remote control
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: right .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So of course we need energy sources and uh uh the receiver a a receiver . This is {vocalsound} very quick uh design , uh you stop me or interrupt me if uh you don't agree on it on that .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And um so what I have found and {vocalsound} after a lot of work actually I {vocalsound} I draw this I draw for you this uh schema
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: that can be maybe too technical for you but is very important for me
Marketing: You drew it a long time ago ?
Industrial Designer: you know .
Project Manager: Is huh
Marketing: Ninety one . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} And uh that's it so I won't go into details about that
Project Manager: overwhelming {vocalsound} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: but uh these are my preferences to use uh that kind of components .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And and why do you want these kind of component ?
Industrial Designer: So . So
Project Manager: I mean , are they cheap , or are they uh reliable ? What were your {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: found and yeah th you have always a compromise with uh reliability and uh i if it's expensive ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: but uh this one was not this one also really uh reliable um so yeah that's it for the working design , uh I hope you get clearer view on uh what what a remote control is uh in terms of uh technical components
Project Manager: Yes . It it it's more clear now I think .
Industrial Designer: but maybe yeah {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: But is it uh can you just buy it on the market and f plug it in or you want to ma
Industrial Designer: No no no no we we will uh {disfmarker} This is a preference but we can always change uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . What I w what I was thinking about uh the the the schema uh about uh the sender and the receiver , I mean can you can you get back to it ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah uh , the receiver is of course already in the television and we are not uh able to change it . So we we must adapt to the to the receiver .
Industrial Designer: Of course yeah .
Project Manager: I I suppose there is a standard uh way of communicating to televisions uh .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . We will use uh {vocalsound} infrared protocol uh using {vocalsound} yeah infrared and uh and of course we need to adapt to that protocol that already exists
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and but we what we can do is uh uh adapting {vocalsound} the the chips inside uh to the best uh chips and uh infrared bubbles .
Project Manager: Mm . Mm . Mm . Mm . Yes . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Um . Okay . {gap}
Project Manager: Thank you .
User Interface: Well it to du it's just you had to change the frequencies .
Industrial Designer: The frequencies ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah . Of course yeah
User Interface: {vocalsound} But you should be careful ,
Industrial Designer: in the chip you have it yeah .
User Interface: people are sometime becoming problem , like a guy has recently designed a remote uh uh uh which could switch off any other T_V_s {vocalsound} , so basically {gap} through all the things .
Industrial Designer: That can control o other things . Yeah .
Marketing: Ah .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: So maybe we should think of {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Of course yeah we should take that into account
Marketing: That's handy .
Project Manager: Yeah yes
Marketing: So if the b T_V_ in the next apartment's really loud , you can just turn it off .
Project Manager: I I I {disfmarker}
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: in the uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah so you can just go on the street and then switch off everyone's T_V_ {vocalsound} and you can just walk away {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You don't have to be near the T_V_ at all {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Yeah . I like that idea .
Project Manager: I I feel I I I think M Mael will will consider this uh th these things .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Maybe Maybe we can go to to your presentation uh Matthew .
User Interface: Yeah
Project Manager: I I I assume you were finished here .
User Interface: so {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Uh okay .
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound} So I can take I think mine now there .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Okay so voila .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hmm I can take mine it's okay , voila , mm so mm . Okay .
Project Manager: Oh . I {disfmarker} Uh , sorry ? I know where it is .
User Interface: It's on the desktop .
Project Manager: It's uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Technical function .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: It's uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Like so .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well . So um I'm going to talk a little bit about the technical function so wha what actually it's about what is the user going to do , I think my last presented what is going inside ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yep .
User Interface: so what's the user is going to see from the outside and how he is going to use it . So well the approach is that uh basically the idea is to send a message to the T_V_ set , as Mael has pointed , and it will be decoded by the T_V_ and usually we it is easier to have uh keys or buttons with which people can uh press and then um changing a button will basically uh change the message which is being sent to the T_V_ and uh {vocalsound} um
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: a and basically it sends an internal signal and decoded by the receiver . So p as um Anna has said that this ki people are interested in things which are you don't need to k press the keys , people are can have a speech recognition but this is uh s a question which will we have to see later .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: But in the present scenario is that you have certain keys and you press it like your mobile phone , and it sends a message to the T_V_ .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
User Interface: {vocalsound} And um so generally mm I don't have some figures sorry but um so there are two kinds of uh remote if you popularly in the household , actually so you have a standard T_V_ remote where you have just a on , off button and play , uh volume change and uh keys for the number and more than one digit option . And if you see for example righ right now uh uh even the one uh on more than one digit option is for two digit channel which is like ninety nine , but {vocalsound} tomorrow you might have one fifty channels you know to browse or two hundred channels to browse who knows , but uh uh . Then there is uh {vocalsound} this is the standard one with without any fancy thing you know like i it doesn't have teletext option , it can without any , it's a very simple thing , um which which you can vouch {vocalsound} . And then you have uh what's the v video remote file which is like usually it has almost all the keys over there and , but it then it has other options like stop uh and then you play the movie or uh or fo fast forward the movie or something like that so i it has those
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: so these are the standard uh commonly found remote controls in the uh market . And then {disfmarker} whi which is generally used by the people . And then {vocalsound} well personal preferences I would {disfmarker} uh basically think of having a kind of aim for the next generation thing where the {disfmarker} we could have both the uh the f a T_V_ and the remote {disfmarker} video remote control because uh some of the keys in the video's remote control and the T_V_ they could be integrated together so that uh we could um aim for the like in the f coming future um that type of uh applications with {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . How would that work ? So you've got say maybe a V_C_R_ and a T_V_ which are separate ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: so you {disfmarker} on my one at home I've got a V_C_R_ remote which then changes the channel on the V_C_R_ and doesn't do anything on the T_V_ ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: so is it gonna be like a switch on the remote that says t use the T_V_ or use the V_C_R_ ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: or does it know which one you want to use ?
User Interface: Um actually um you could you could think of um having s a y you can have a key which could tell y it could go to the video thing
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: but um uh yo you you you still can't um in that case when it you use that the function should be able to take up the V_C_R_ option
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and you could play it or {disfmarker} You can also think about having like um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I in a few days you will be ha in in few ye coming years you might even have a system where you have a separate uh sitting setup box
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and uh you have uh um something like uh uh you do you do you suppose you are not able to watch some programme and actually it downloading all the time for you
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm .
User Interface: and uh you can just you know uh when you come back you could just switch on that thing and uh watch a program .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: In that case you want to browse faster , browse slow , you want to have those kind of functionalities {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm mm mm mm mm .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: These are kind of next generation {vocalsound} functionalities .
User Interface: It's the next generation thing ,
Project Manager: Mm yes ,
User Interface: but it is going to come in couple of years .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: but I think it's i i it's already there ,
User Interface: It's goi
Project Manager: I mean the hard disk uh recorders uh I I've seen them in the shop .
User Interface: Yeah it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . So
Industrial Designer: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: it's going to record your things and you and you you need basically the functionalities what you need in both uh uh video as well as in the standard T_V_ thing .
Marketing: Mm . Yeah . That's fair enough . Mm . But I don't think we're trying to make a universal remote here . That's ,
User Interface: No no we are not making a universal remote ,
Marketing: yeah .
User Interface: we are just looking at uh giving a scenario , I have a T_V_ and tomorrow I am going to have set up box
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: which is going to sit there and uh it's going to do that job for me .
Marketing: Mm . Because y
Project Manager: W w w w we need to decide on on on on in how far we go to in this .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm .
Project Manager: Mean , you can go {vocalsound} pretty far I f I think with with with functions and possible uh future p uh prospects
Marketing: Mm . Yep .
Project Manager: yes .
User Interface: Yeah . So {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But it's good to keep in mind .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Okay so that p ends my presentation .
Project Manager: Mm . Very well .
User Interface: Well . So we can always discuss about it for example uh the presently the video market actually uh this demand , video over-demand or what we call it as , it's presently {vocalsound} booming up actually
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
User Interface: so it i like people are providing like uh things like uh uh movies , you can select actually so you want to watch a movie and uh your p your provider gives a list of movies , and then you select those list .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And it
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: basically you go off , it downloads the movie , it gives for you
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: and then when you come you want to loo watch it on your T_V_ .
Project Manager: Good .
User Interface: And thi this is going to come .
Industrial Designer: Or even you don't need to download it , it's streamed uh online uh yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah it can be streamed online for you and you can say what time I want to watch the movie
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah
Project Manager: Um , so u um
User Interface: so . Yeah .
Project Manager: I have uh received some some some some well points of of thinking over of my account manager and uh I would like to share them with you . Um
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: first thing is uh teletext is a well known feature of televisions
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: but it's it's getting used less and less .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: That's that's especially because of the internet of course .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: So we should think about it um . Do we include it , and do we give it a prominent uh prominent uh place on on on the on well huh on the remote mot control itself .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Uh as uh a in any case it's it's not used , well very much , but it's it is still used . Um
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Um .
Project Manager: further yes we must think , uh do we stay uh to to television only , the television as we as we all know it with with broadcasting signals and you can't go back uh huh , or do we uh uh go further as Matthew indicated by supporting uh uh recording uh devices ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So D_V_D_s and V_C_R_s ?
Project Manager: Uh indeed indeed .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: And and and the hard disk recorders . Um , furthermore , uh , w we need really need to interest uh {vocalsound} y younger customers and then with younger customers I mean people uh below the age of forty ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and our our current customers are mainly forty plus
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: uh which well
Industrial Designer: Fourteen
Project Manager: {disfmarker} Forty .
Industrial Designer: or for O okay .
Project Manager: So
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: that's to that's I mean there's a market but uh they will grow older {disfmarker} older
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and you'll al {vocalsound} always need to have the the future with younger people .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um therefore , {vocalsound} younger people like trendy {disfmarker} trendy designs , so that's w we should make our our our R_C_ as trendy as possible but it should also be uh have a reliable image , so when it looks too too spacey or too fancy people will think well does it work at all .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah it's uh well you you can follow the ideas how you want to keep the keys , you know right now if you take it you have like zero , one , two , three like a keys separately ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: but suppose if you take the the present trend of mobile phones there are like big thick keys
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: you press on the top , it takes one number , you press on the bottom it takes another number , and uh basically uh uh so the space covered so that you don't see two separate keys there actually
Industrial Designer: {gap} Mm-hmm .
User Interface: so it it is like uh um i i it is like uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Ma Maybe Maybe you can draw it on the on the board uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm . But I think taking the idea of getting inspiration from mobile phones is interesting , especially if we're going after a younger market ,
User Interface: Yeah so .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Hmm . Yes yes
Marketing: that's the the the mm the new and the funky things ,
Project Manager: mo
Industrial Designer: Because they are already used to that , you know , product .
Marketing: that's ,
Project Manager: Yes it's recognisable {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: yeah , there's lot there's lots of pretty mobile phones , not too many pretty remote controls .
Project Manager: Mm mm .
Marketing: That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And and they are skilled uh by using it .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: So for example uh {disfmarker} Well uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . .. .
User Interface: Okay , it works . Fine . So , for example you have uh presently uh keys like one , two , three like this , actually , and uh uh four five six like that and uh you can have keys like this in form like uh keys like that
Project Manager: Mael can you hand me over this uh ?
Industrial Designer: Yes . {gap}
Project Manager: Uh thank you .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Okay . How much longer have we got for the meeting by the way ?
Project Manager: Mm well
Marketing: 'Cause we haven't talked about demographic at all
Project Manager: I think fi five min
User Interface: Forty minutes ?
Marketing: and it's a very important issue .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah so you you you can have uh keys like uh which are which are like so . {vocalsound} too sorry , so we basically don't change the uh original order of them
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: but then the keys are more spacious ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: they don't look uh {disfmarker} so there there is a very sligh thing , so if you press on the top it takes the one , it takes the three , uh four , sorry four here uh five and six ,
Marketing: Mm . Mm .
User Interface: so the keys can be it looks you know not very much cluttered but it looks nice
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: for you don't have too many keys
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: but you can have a lot of options t if you press on the to
Project Manager: Okay . 'Kay I I think now that the idea's clear .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Uh we should now uh try to decide um on our target group .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Which I think is quite tricky .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um , basically we're trying to get people to buy a remote control {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: wouldn't they already have a remote control with their television when they buy one ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Of course they have already one . So our our our remote control has to be better .
Marketing: But it's not going to have more functionality ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: 'cause it's only a low market , it's a cheap-end remote control , we can't beat modern functionality , we might {disfmarker} we'll be able to {vocalsound} beat them on th the look of it , th the design of it but that's not a big seller , if they're not just going to buy a new remote control just 'cause it looks pretty , they have to actually need it as well .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So I'm not sure how we can get people to buy this thing .
Project Manager: Mm . I {disfmarker} well I think {vocalsound} many people said uh in your in in your research uh uh uh the appearance of the uh R_C_ is is important when they are buying one
Marketing: Mm . Yeah . But why are they buying one in the first place ?
Project Manager: but {disfmarker} Indeed . So that will be about functionality {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm . But if people are buying a new remote control for functionality they'll buy a universal remote . I've got friends who've got so many things they need a universal remote , otherwise they're using five different remotes for their all their things .
Project Manager: Mm . Mm-hmm . Mm .
Marketing: In that case they wouldn't buy our product , because it doesn't give them what they need in terms of functionality .
Project Manager: So your you think we should go for a more u universal high-performance {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well , we can't , with the price range . We We're not building a universal remote , we're not building a high end product .
Project Manager: What do {disfmarker} What do you think about {disfmarker} What componen
Industrial Designer: Yeah we have yeah twelve point five Euros uh per uh per R_ s R_C_
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: and I think uh with this now you know that chips are very uh cheaps
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and uh we can include it in our control some new new features .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . And um {disfmarker} But yeah
Marketing: But {disfmarker} yeah . If we're getting into universal remote territory , we're getting to L_C_D_ screens and things like that
Industrial Designer: that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: which would drive the cost up a lot .
Project Manager: I don't know . I don't know whether that's necessary .
Industrial Designer: Ye
Project Manager: Is the L_C_D_ screen {disfmarker}
Marketing: For universal remotes {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I don't think L_C_D_ is not necessary {disfmarker} well , th for long term .
Marketing: If you {disfmarker} mm .
Project Manager: I think thi this could be this could be a market because uh universal remote controls uh tend to be uh quite expensive .
Marketing: And quite complicated to use ,
Project Manager: S so we can try to go in between ,
Marketing: yes .
Project Manager: and offer a product which is not as expensive and not as complicated
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Not as flexible maybe , yeah , but s
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: yeah .
Project Manager: but but still but still people have the idea this is more functional than a normal uh uh R_C_
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Universal .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: because it has more uh it it is in some kind universal .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But if we're going for the say fifteen to twenty five age group then not many of them would actually own T_V_s to use a remote control on .
Project Manager: Mm yes but w we're targeting I think on more on the on the twenty to forty group .
Marketing: Okay . So they're {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: People {disfmarker} yes . Who just have or already have a job and have the money but may not want to spend that much money on a on a universal universal control .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Yep . I don't know really what the the price range for remote controls is . Are we gonna be at the very bottom of the price range , or are we kind of middle to bottom ? I don't know .
Project Manager: Uh well
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think uh when we think it over I thi I think we are trying to offer the a kind of universal control for for less money .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So d Do you agree ?
User Interface: Well {disfmarker} Well I it's fine with me like the price as long as it is uh not too expensive .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah
User Interface: Uh and it d uh {disfmarker} Our provin
Industrial Designer: because we have to take into account that we are gonna b we are gonna sell uh four aro around four million so when we speak about these numbers uh the price of a chip is {vocalsound} uh price of a chip is very cheap .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So I'm okay for designing um a ne uh less {vocalsound} yeah a a kind of universal uh R_C_ yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . You think it's possible for the twelve Euro fifty ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Um so then we we decide on on on going to this more universal kind of control .
User Interface: Uh yeah , that's that's what we needed basically .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm . Mm . Okay .
User Interface: Uh that's needed right now . And uh basically you can look to the standards of other {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah that's needed , yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And if we want to get the market , we really need that .
Marketing: Yeah . So I guess what I'd like from a universal remote is maybe choosing between three devices , being able to switch between them , there may be stereo , V_C_R_ and T_V_ .
User Interface: Actu
Industrial Designer: Yes . Exactly . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: And just be able to s use them all from the same remote , but not at the same time .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah you can also browse through all the standards you know , where are the limit of standards for all of them and you can just browse through them .
Industrial Designer: Is that okay for you ? Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm mm mm mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: So given we are going for this uh uh universal type uh m {vocalsound} maybe it is good when you try to find out which components you therefore need and y you will try to get more specific uh user interface content
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Okay . Okay .
Project Manager: and uh maybe you can look on on what trends are in this uh in this type of market .
Marketing: Mm-hmm yep .
User Interface: Voila {vocalsound} . Hmm .
Project Manager: So anyone uh has a point to bring in
User Interface: So . Well .
Project Manager: or shall we {disfmarker} no .
User Interface: Oh I don't have anything right now . We can we'll we'll go
Industrial Designer: Oh
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: that's that's fine then .
User Interface: and we'll I'm sure we'll up something good
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: W yes ,
User Interface: for the {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we uh we can have lunch now .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So um Then th th the next meeting will uh
User Interface: Yeah so we meet in {disfmarker} well {vocalsound} what are our {disfmarker}
Project Manager: after lunch you have uh we have uh thirty minutes of work and then we have the next meeting . But you will be informed via the computer .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Cool . So see you later .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay {vocalsound} perfect .
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Project Manager: Yep . Soon as I get this . Okay . This is our last meeting . Um I'll go ahead and go through the minutes from the previous meeting . Uh and then we'll have a , the prototype presentation . {vocalsound} Um then we will um do an evaluation . Uh or we'll see what , what we need to have under the criteria for the evaluation . Then we'll go through the finance and see if we fall within the budget . Um then we'll do the evaluation , and then we can finish up after that with um any changes that we'll need to make , or hopefully everything will fall right in line . Um let's see , minutes from the last meeting . Um we looked at uh the the trends . We had uh the fashion trends that people want a fancy look-and-feel . It was twice as important as anything else . Um they liked fruit and vegetables in the new styles . Um and a spongy feel . So we were talking about trying to incorporate those into our prototype . Um they wanted limited buttons and simplicity . Um then we looked at the uh the method for coming up with our own remote . Um looking at other other devices . Um the iPod , we really liked the look of that . Um we also had uh the kid's remote for a simple idea . Um a two part remote , which was what were were originally looking at . Uh and then um there was talk of spee uh speech recognition um becoming more uh predominant and easier to use . But I think we've still decided not to go with that . {vocalsound} Then we looked at the components um the materials for the case , the different energy sources , the different types of chips , um and made a decision on what we were going to use to make our remote . Um and basically how , what were making for the prototype . So I'm going to leave it at that and let you guys take over .
User Interface: The prototype discussion .
Project Manager: The prototype yeah . Do you need a {disfmarker} this ?
User Interface: No . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Can try to plug that in there
User Interface: There is our remo {gap} the banana .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um {vocalsound} yeah basically we we st went with the colour yellow . Um working on the principle of a fruit which was mentioned , it's basically designed around a banana .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um but it would be held in such a fashion ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: where it is , obviously it wouldn't be that floppy 'cause this would be hard plastic . These would be like the rubber , the rubber grips . So that's so that would hopefully help with grip , or like the ergonomics of it . Um but all the controlling would be done with this scroll wheel . You have to use your imagination a little bit . And this here represents the screen , where you , where you'd go through .
Project Manager: Very nice .
User Interface: And the the simplest functions would be um almost identical to an iPod , where that one way ch through channels , that way th other way through channels . Volume up and down . And then to access the more complicated functions you'd you sorta go , you press that and go through the menus . It's that that simple . That just represents the infrared uh beam . That's a simple on and off switch . Um I don't know , we could use the voice . T that blue bits should be yellow , that that'd be where the batteries would be I suppose . And um {vocalsound} that's about it . It's as simple as you , we could make it really .
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: Is there anything you want to add ?
Industrial Designer: That's what we have there . That's plastic . Plastic covered with rubber . We might uh add some more underneath here . Maybe give it , give it a form . I mean you're supposed to hold it like that , but um just if you grab it , take it from somewhere ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker} yeah ,
User Interface: Doesn't make much make much difference .
Industrial Designer: you have some rub yeah .
User Interface: You could work left-handed or right-handed I suppose .
Industrial Designer: Exactly , {gap} use both . Might as well think about {disfmarker}
User Interface: T the actual thing might be smaller .
Industrial Designer: Th think about the button as well . Like either put either one {gap} one on either side or
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: What but what's that button ?
Industrial Designer: not do it at all . It's a quick on-off button .
User Interface: Just the on and off .
Project Manager: Uh , 'kay .
Industrial Designer: That's um
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yeah I think it's pretty important . So you don't have to fiddle with that .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Right ? Um that's not um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'd say a bit smaller would probably be nice . You wanna play with that over there .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: There you go .
User Interface: It's you know it's flimsy 'cause it's made out of heavy Play-Doh ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Would you like to uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Pretty impressive .
Project Manager: Well done .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Kind of a banana .
User Interface: And whether or not it would fall into the cost {gap} everything I suppose . With the scroll and the L_C_D_ .
Project Manager: Well luckily we are going to find out . Or not luckily . Um do you have a marketing presentation for us .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I do . Okay . You guys are gonna help me do an evaluation of the criteria . Um . Okay . So first I'll just discuss some of the criteria that I found . Just based on the past trend reports that I was looking at earlier . And then we'll do a group evaluation of the prototype . And then we will calculate the average score to see how we did . Um so the criteria we're gonna be looking at are the complaints um that we heard from the users who were interviewed earlier . So we're gonna be doing it based on a seven point scale . And one is going to mean true , that we did actually achieve that . With seven being false , we did not achieve that . {gap} . Okay . So for the first one , we need to decide , did we solved the problem of the users who complained about an ugly remote ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think it's definitely different than anything else out there .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So if they think that what is out there is ugly , then yes I would say , I would say most definitely .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I would {gap} .
Project Manager: It's bright .
User Interface: It's bright . It's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It still has your traditional black .
User Interface: It's curved . It's not {disfmarker} there's no sharp
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: angles to it .
Project Manager: Yep , not angular .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: I'd say , when it comes to the ergonomics , the form and stuff , yes that's definitely more beautiful than your average .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: However the colour , we don't have a say in that .
Marketing: Yeah I think the colours detract a little bit . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Some people might say it . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: That has been , that has been dictated pretty much by the company .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: So uh to answer that honestly I would rather say like uh , we have not solved the problem completely with the ugly remote because the colour is ugly , definitely .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yep .
Marketing: That's true . Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: 'S nothing you can say about that . I mean I much prefer something like brushed chrome with that form .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah something more modern to go {disfmarker} a a modern colour to go with the modern form .
Industrial Designer: Right . Right . It's different . You don't want your uh three feet huge L_C_D_ dis display in your living room that's hanging from the wall to be controlled with something like that .
Marketing: Um okay so , do you think , since we {disfmarker} This was a a sign criteria , do you think maybe we should put it somewhere in the middle then ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Does that sound good ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: What do you think ? Three ? Four ?
Project Manager: I would say
Marketing: Five ?
Project Manager: four . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Four is fair . Okay .
Project Manager: Very non-committal , four .
Marketing: Okay , the second one . Did we make it simple for new users ?
Industrial Designer: It's very intuitive , I think yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . I think that was the main aim , one of the main aims that we had .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} S give it a one .
Marketing: One ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: 'kay . Okay . Um , do the controls now match the operating behaviour of the users ?
User Interface: Uh yeah . 'Cause we've we've brought it down to basically four controls {gap} most common , which are channel and volume .
Marketing: I'd say that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: And then the other ones are just a matter of just going , just scrolling further .
Project Manager: S scrolling through and selecting a few .
Industrial Designer: Right . So that's a one .
Marketing: So one ?
Project Manager: I think that's a one .
Marketing: Yeah ? {vocalsound} Okay . Okay um the fourth one . How about the problem of a remote being easily lost ? One of the number one complaints .
Industrial Designer: Something that big and that yellow you just don't lose anymore .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Whether you want to or not , you're not gonna lose it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's bright yellow .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Bright yellow's hard to lose . But um if we were to , if we were , that , the speech recognition . That , we could maybe just use that solely for the the finding thing . That was what we'd we'd mentioned .
Project Manager: So if we incorporate speech recognition into it then it could {disfmarker}
User Interface: Just just to use , to find it when it was lost . But like I said , like I don't think you'd lose something so yellow so easily .
Industrial Designer: Oops . Hmm .
User Interface: And it's not gonna fall , like a rectangle would slip down behind things . That's gonna be a difficult shape to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well what {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And it is quite bright and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Maybe in the middle again , three or four or something ?
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: S
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: I mean you know {gap} loo losing things is one of those things that people can lose , I mean a million ways .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: You can pick it up and walk away with it and then you've lost it .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: That's true .
Project Manager: But if we do go with the , with the speech recognition , then it , then our scale goes up quite a bit I think .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah . You probably {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Probably two . You know . If we eliminate the fact that you know it's impossible to guarantee that it's not gonna be lost then
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: I'd say two .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: With the speech recognition , which of course may be changed depending on budget .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Y you could add an extra feature actually . Which makes this thing raise hell when you remove it too far from the television .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We could add that but that's nothing we have thought of so far .
Project Manager: Which , which may be cheaper than speech recognition if it were just a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah true . But I mean d just those whistling , clapping key rings you have . They're cheap .
Marketing: Annoying alarm or something ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: So it can't be that
Industrial Designer: Um the {disfmarker} it's based on this anti anti-theft technology for suitcases and stuff ,
User Interface: expensive .
Project Manager: Some sort of proximity {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: where you have one piece that's attached to your luggage , another piece that starts beeping . That can't cost much .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So that can also easily be integrated because these things are small enough to to hide , so you have one piece , you have to glue somewhere behind your {disfmarker} stick it behind your T_V_ and the other {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap} stick it on the T_V_ {gap} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Pray that you don't accidentally lose that piece . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That'd be tough then . {vocalsound} Well also your remote would uh alarm you if somebody stole you t your television , yeah . Ran off with it without taking the beautiful remote control .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: So . Are we adding one of these two features ?
Industrial Designer: Let's add one of those features and say yes . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} gonna say {disfmarker} okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So we're {vocalsound} back to a one ?
User Interface: Two .
Marketing: Or a two ?
Project Manager: Two .
Industrial Designer: Two .
Marketing: Two , 'kay . Okay . Are we technologically innovative ?
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'd say so .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh don't get many mo remote controls with
Industrial Designer: It's all just {disfmarker}
User Interface: screens on .
Industrial Designer: It's all just stolen technology when it comes down to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah it's stolen technology .
Marketing: From iPod yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: But we have {gap} .
Project Manager: But there's not a lot of yellow , there's not a lotta yellow .
Industrial Designer: right
Marketing: But for remotes {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Course that wasn't really {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: right
User Interface: Fa
Industrial Designer: right right .
Project Manager: we were kinda forced to take that colour .
Marketing: Two ? Three ?
User Interface: {gap} 'cause it's stolen .
Project Manager: I don't know that we are that innovative , to tell you the truth . {vocalsound}
User Interface: No maybe not .
Industrial Designer: Yeah not really .
Marketing: But how many remotes do you see like this ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: If we added the screaming factor {vocalsound} then we go up .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Not so many .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um I would say we're probably at four .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: Really ? Okay . {vocalsound} That's gonna hurt us .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . Um spongy material ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah well you have that , kind of , sort of .
Project Manager: We have some spongy , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah as much as as needed , I think .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: It's not a one though .
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: One would be the whole thing
Project Manager: Yeah . Because it's only got what , these parts are the grips and perhaps the back side {disfmarker} the bottom {disfmarker} the underneath on the back .
Industrial Designer: to fold and stuff . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So that's a four at most .
Project Manager: Probably a four at most . Possibly even a five .
Marketing: And lastly , did we put the fashion in electronics ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Y yes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I'd say we did .
Project Manager: If your fashion is b is Carmen Miranda , you betcha . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: More {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well the recent fashion is rather displayed in the in the L_C_D_ and the way you operate it than the form and the colour ,
User Interface: On the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's true .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but it definitely is {disfmarker}
User Interface: Be what we were told , and they'd say yeah , definitely .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Marketing: 'Kay . Alright . Now we just gotta calculate . Six eight twelve sixteen . Seventeen divided by s
User Interface: {gap} .
Project Manager: Seven is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Eight .
Project Manager: Two point {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} two point four ?
User Interface: Is that some long division ? No .
Project Manager: Something .
Marketing: Well I haven't done math in years .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: What two {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I dunno .
User Interface: Just , I'm sure there's a {gap} .
Marketing: Okay we'll say two point four two . Right ? How does that look ?
Industrial Designer: I'm impressed . I can't do that without a calculator . {vocalsound}
User Interface: No I can't do long {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's been a while .
User Interface: very impressive .
Project Manager: And what what is the acceptable criteria ? Is there like a scale that we have to hit ?
Marketing: Oh no . They just told me to
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} pick my own criteria and have you guys evaluate it {vocalsound} basically .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright then .
Marketing: So that's that .
Project Manager: Okay . Well , let's see .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now we get to do the budget numbers . You didn't know that you were gonna have a budget . But we do . Okay .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah so . You'd been going a long time dividing that . It's two point four two eight five se it just keeps going on .
Marketing: Oh my god .
User Interface: Two point four two basically .
Marketing: Okay . Yeah we'll go with that .
Project Manager: So I have here an {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Fifty percent , you're kidding .
Marketing: Not too shabby .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} P
Project Manager: We want a fifty percent profit on this . Oh you can't really see that very well .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Charge about three hundred quid for it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Twelve and a half Euros is what supposed to cost us . Okay , so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's too much .
Project Manager: Well let's see .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The f the {disfmarker} Wonder if I can make this {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Oh it won't let me do that . Okay . Alright so at top , I don't know if you guys can read that or not . I can't 'cause I don't have my glasses on ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but so we've got the energy source . There's uh four , five , six categories .
Industrial Designer: Battery .
Project Manager: We have energy source , electronics , case . Then we have case material supplements , interface type , and then button supplements . Okay so {disfmarker} Uh first of all energy source , we picked battery . Um and how many batteries do we think this will probably take ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Probably some e either two or four .
Industrial Designer: Two .
Project Manager: Two ? {vocalsound} Like it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: At four it's gonna be too heavy , so that that's not our problem . People can change it every month .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Excellent .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} They won't know until after they bought it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is consumerism .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright so for the electronics our choices are simpl simple chip-on-print , regular chip-on-print , advanced chip-on-print , sample sensor , sample speaker .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: We're advanced chip are we ?
Industrial Designer: That's the advanced chip-on-print , yeah .
Project Manager: 'Kay , {gap} we have one of those . 'Kay then the case is a {disfmarker} Probably it's double curved .
Industrial Designer: Double curved , yes .
Project Manager: Case materials are
Industrial Designer: Plastic .
Project Manager: plastic . Um I guess it's two , since one for the top , one for the bottom .
Industrial Designer: N no .
Project Manager: Is that right or is it just one ?
Industrial Designer: No that's just one .
Project Manager: Maybe it's one because of the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's just one mo single mould , we can do that .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: Yeah {gap} yeah .
Marketing: Right . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I guess it doesn't matter 'cause the price on that one is zero , which is nice .
Industrial Designer: Exactly , right .
Marketing: Oh .
Project Manager: Special colour ?
Industrial Designer: That's not a special colour . It's a specially ugly colour , but it's not special .
Marketing: Bright yellow .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Interface type . We have pushbutton , scroll-wheel interface , integrated scroll-wheel pushbutton , and an L_C_D_ display .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: S
Industrial Designer: S {vocalsound}
User Interface: That's {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: So we actually have the L_C_D_ display
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and then is it the integrated or is it {disfmarker}
User Interface: I'd say the integrated .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes unfortunately .
Project Manager: 'Kay . Button supplement ? Special colour ?
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Um special form ? Special material .
Industrial Designer: We could of course make the buttons wood .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Say mahogany or so
Marketing: {vocalsound} It'd look really lovely .
Project Manager: Or titanium .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm or titanium .
Project Manager: They cost us all the same .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: {gap} remote control {gap} .
Project Manager: Well we only have one button so really we shouldn't be charged ,
Industrial Designer: Uh just {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} we shouldn't be charged anything for the the button supplements .
User Interface: No that's getting a bit tiny .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'd ignore that .
Marketing: Leave it blank .
Project Manager: Okay . We're gonna leave that one blank because we run on a L_C_D_ and scroll . So our total is fifteen point five . Which I believe is
Industrial Designer: Yeah that's too much .
Project Manager: by three Euros over .
Industrial Designer: It's hard to believe . So we'll go for the hand dynamo huh ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So the only thing better than um a banana-shaped remote is one that you shake .
User Interface: If it w What if we completely took out the the one single button we've got on .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And just had a scroll wheel interface . And the L_C_D_ display . I suppose the L_C_D_ C_ display's the one that's pushing it up a bit though .
Project Manager: Yeah 'cause the {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well 'cause we have to have both right ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I mean let's let's face it , it also depends on the software on the on the television .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You can have the the information that this thing transmits be being displayed on the on the screen .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So s yeah let's take away the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah you could maybe take out the L_C_D_ dis display even ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: if it if it comes up on the computer itsel on the T_V_ itself .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: So we may not need the L_C_D_ display ?
User Interface: Uh that is possible yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right . We may not need it . There you go .
Project Manager: Well there we go .
Industrial Designer: Perfect .
Project Manager: Twelve point five .
User Interface: There we go .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Perfect .
Project Manager: Okay . So we just remove our {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Screen .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: screen here .
User Interface: Make it a bigger dial .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Easier to use . Even easier to use then .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay , the {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Besides look at what the L_C_D_ does to our lovely remote .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Back to the design room boys .
Industrial Designer: So we can just take away a heck of a lot of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: there you go . {gap} central ?
Marketing: What's the blue part ?
User Interface: That was just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh that's just {disfmarker}
User Interface: we ran out of yellow . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh that's the batteries .
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: There you go
User Interface: There you go .
Industrial Designer: . Oops .
User Interface: Even simpler .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Looks more like a banana .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: There you go .
User Interface: For all those fruit lovers out there .
Industrial Designer: One more criteria .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay so the costs under twelve point five Euro . Was no . We redesigned it . Now it's yes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Next slide . Project evaluation . Uh project process , satisfaction with , for example , room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , means , new ideas found . Um {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} I guess that {disfmarker} Let's see here . I think that perhaps the project evaluation's just supposed to be completed by me . But I'd like to hear your thoughts .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Fair enough . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Trying to fill in some time there . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh h what did you think of our project process ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Great . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think we did {disfmarker} yeah I think we did quite well . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Good .
Marketing: Good teamwork {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Just half a day , you have a remote . There you go .
User Interface: Yeah . Right from the start of the day .
Project Manager: Yeah I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: We sort of knew where we were going straight away I thought .
Project Manager: {gap} we st we started off a little little weak . Our leadership was quite weak in the beginning .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But as the day went along we had more idea of what we were doing . Um room for creativity ? There was that . Um I think we tried a lotta different things and um I think it was um interesting as you guys brought up more um information and studies that we were right on with a lot of those things . Um you guys worked together well as a team . And um the means ? Which was the whiteboard and the pens .
User Interface: Yeah . We've used the whiteboard .
Industrial Designer: Super super .
Project Manager: I had some problem with the pen I think , but {vocalsound} minus your p
Marketing: Minus your PowerPoint fiasco .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well that's not my fault . That's obviously the people I work for uh that work for me ,
Marketing: No I know . I'm {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: yeah . Incom {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: uh they've just you know {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Have a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Heads are gonna roll , believe me .
Project Manager: we have a list of employees that you would like fired .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes yes .
Project Manager: Okay . N new ideas found ? Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm . Kinda .
Project Manager: Yes for the remote . Maybe no not f for
User Interface: Technology used .
Project Manager: technology . Alright . Closing . Costs are within the budget . Project is evaluated . Um complete the final questionnaire and meeting summary . That's it .
User Interface: Excellent .
Project Manager: And I still have to do my minutes for the last meeting . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Actually . Um so there will probably be another questionnaire coming up . And then we'll have to check with the main boss whether we can , what goes on after that .
Marketing: We might have a while though .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Project Manager: But that's the end of our meeting .
| |
doc_92
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Project Manager: Mm-hmm ? Okay . Ooh .
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: So we're 'kay ? On the {gap} or {disfmarker} No . I dunno where to put it 'cause the {disfmarker} Okay . Could you s take it off ? {gap} .
Marketing: Is that alright ? {vocalsound} {gap} or {disfmarker} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Keeps coming off . 'S fiddly .
Project Manager: Hmm . {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Right .
Project Manager: How do we sta wa how do we start ? Does anybody know ?
Marketing: Oh , another one .
Project Manager: So that's this {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh okay , right .
Industrial Designer: Are we free to take notes uh {disfmarker} Okay .
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound} {gap} . Hmm . Okay , just hang on a second everybody . I haven't actually looked at this yet .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Ah .
Project Manager: {gap} um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Very nice .
Project Manager: I haven't looked at it , but let's just start it off and we'll see what happens . If you're all ready .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So {gap} is the agenda ? Opening , acquaintance , tool training and project plan , discussion and then closing . Project aim is a new remote control . It's original , uh trendy and it's user-friendly .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Project method , functional design , individual work , another meeting , conceptual design , individual work , and a meeting of details design , individual work and a meeting . Tool training . Try out the whiteboard , every participant should draw their favourite animal and sum up their favourite characteristics of that animal .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Um . Uh Miss Industrial Designer , would you like to go first ?
Industrial Designer: Okay . So are we supposed to bring the little things for the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , why don't you just c , I think just clip on {disfmarker} clip
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {disfmarker} do you have a belt ?
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Clip {gap} .
Project Manager: Or put 'em in your pocket , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} {gap} okay . So my favourite animal {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , what's your favourite animal ?
Industrial Designer: 'Kay um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah .
Project Manager: Is it rude ?
Marketing: It's an elephant . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's a very good elephant .
User Interface: The back end of an elephant .
Marketing: Oh my gosh , I'm never gonna be able to draw that well . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'Kay , and you want to write up on there , it says you've gotta sum up your f f your favourite characteristics of that animal .
Industrial Designer: Um {vocalsound} okay , it's big , it's got a great memory .
Marketing: Does it ? Oh .
Industrial Designer: Supposed to have a great memory , we say an elephant never forgets .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: And uh dunno know why but {vocalsound} looks like nice to me .
Project Manager: Okay . Wonderful , well done .
Industrial Designer: Nice animal .
Project Manager: Do you want to use the wipe {disfmarker} the m the wiper and wipe it off ?
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: And Mister aesthetics designer do you wanna go next ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Aesthetic yep , sure .
Marketing: I have no idea what my favourite animal is .
User Interface: 'Kay , my favourite animal ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: uh let's see .
Marketing: Oh .
User Interface: Dunno if any of you have seen Napoleon Dynamite before .
Marketing: It's {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's a liger {vocalsound} ,
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: A what ?
User Interface: a combination of a lion and tiger {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Have you not seen Napoleon Dynamite ?
Marketing: How {gap} .
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: Oh it's a hilarious movie .
Marketing: No .
User Interface: You have to see it . And and it's best characteristic is it's pretty much the awesomest animal . But you have to see the movie to fully appreciate it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , well done .
Marketing: Great . Me ?
Project Manager: Yeah . Miss mar Miss Marketing ?
Marketing: Okay . Not quite sure how this is gonna work .
User Interface: There {gap} go .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool . {vocalsound} Uh {vocalsound} well I'll try my best {vocalsound} to draw . Can I just draw the face ?
Project Manager: Um yeah , I think you can just draw the face , but then you'll have to describe in writing how the rest of it looks . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ooh . It's a cat .
Project Manager: That's a very pr pretty cat .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Which also has what ? A big fat body and big {disfmarker} and a long tail .
Project Manager: Okay , do y do you wanna do some {disfmarker} write {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Why ?
Project Manager: you wanna just write some words about it ?
Marketing: Because um cuddly . And usually cats are very friendly . Usually . And they're healing as well . They heal . And they can feel when a human's got problems so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Wow , so they're kinda spiritual .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So , that's why I like cats .
Project Manager: Well done .
Marketing: There we are , that's me . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um , I don't actually have a favourite animal ,
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: but for the for th for this meeting I'll s draw a little {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Uh . I honestly can't draw for toffee . Uh .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Really ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh that's a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} no
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: A prairie dog ?
Project Manager: {gap} no {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh a squirrel ?
Project Manager: That's exactly what it is .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh not a very good one {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Not bad I would say .
User Interface: Yeah , that's pretty good .
Project Manager: Okay , well , you got it's a s It's a squirrel , and I like them , because they're cute and stupid .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Very good .
Marketing: Ah .
User Interface: Alright .
Project Manager: Right . Okay , so , I guess that was the test to see if this equipment is all working .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm . Let's move on to the next page . Okay , project finance , selling price twenty five Euros , profit aim fifty million Euros .
Marketing: Market range internationally sold .
Project Manager: Yeah . Production cost , ah right it's gotta be {disfmarker} can't cost any more than twelve fifty to make .
Marketing: Ah right okay .
Project Manager: {gap} experience with with remote control , so talk about who who's used what . Any ideas ? Stuff like that . Next meeting starts in thirty minutes . {vocalsound} At quarter to twelve . {vocalsound}
User Interface: So I think before we close uh , we are expected {disfmarker} I mean the last slide wanted us to maybe discuss longer what our what our ideas where . I mean if you wanna go back to the last slide . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: S
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , I think we're {disfmarker} I mean before we close the meeting , we're supposed to come up with some ideas for {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh k so we're actually supposed to be doing this discussion like right now are we or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: oh okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I thought this was just t giving us instructions for the re to do next , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , I think this is just the preliminary , get some rough ideas for what our experiences with remote controls have been and and what we would {disfmarker} roughly what we would incorporate into a new one maybe .
Project Manager: Okay . Right , who's got experiences with remote controls then ? Pretty much everybody .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , I think we've all got {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um .
Industrial Designer: Is this a T_V_ one we are supposed to make ?
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah it's a T_V_ remote control .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: 'Kay um .
Marketing: Well . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: T
Marketing: A new remote control for T_V_ . What would I like ? {vocalsound} Um .
Project Manager: W what {disfmarker} You want it big do you want it small . Are we are we going for like like telephones are going little teeny tiny things or we are going for something that's that's big and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Medium .
User Interface: Mm . Yeah it seems like there's like {disfmarker} there's sort of a tension between two ideas , I mean , you want you want one remote that maybe can work uh all all of the functions of T_V_ and if you have whatever associated with T_V_ the D_V_D_ player , or something like that ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Video and ts hi-fi and stuff .
User Interface: but like at the same time you don't wanna really busy remote with a thousand buttons on it or something .
Project Manager: Maybe you {disfmarker} yeah
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: now th that's the other thing is it's gotta be cheap .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: 'Cause I I I mean I was thinking something that's got different like maybe a a an L_C_D_ display on it that's got different pages for different devices ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but that would p that would probably be quite expensive .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: But how do we know how much uh , I mean , how much do we have per {disfmarker} how much ?
Marketing: Twelve fifty .
Industrial Designer: Twelve fifty . {vocalsound}
User Interface: It g can't be more than twelve fifty per unit .
Marketing: Each .
Project Manager: Per unit , yeah .
User Interface: Cost .
Industrial Designer: So do we have to be realistic within the budget or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well at the moment we could , wa I mean we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Close pr I don't know how much it would cost . Yeah .
Marketing: Guess {disfmarker}
Project Manager: 'cause we this is what we th what we're doing at the moment is just saying what what we'd like , and then after we after we've found out what we can like , some different ideas , we can then go and do the research to find out if these {disfmarker} any of these ideas are feasible or not .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: So would be nice to have something that that controls lots of different things .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um .
Marketing: Couldn't we have like one that comes out ? {vocalsound} Like so you have one in like {disfmarker} mm
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: it doesn't have to be really thick . I mean remote controls can be thin bits . And then you have one for your D_V_D_ and you sort of slide it out , and then you have another one , you slide it out .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Kay .
Marketing: {gap} have slides . And then it all comes compact
Project Manager: Okay , that's {gap} .
Marketing: into one . So it's not {disfmarker} you actually just putting three or four different remotes together but making them thinner , and um into one basically .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Th that's an idea .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So you just flip them out .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Um {gap} have uh one very complicated one on one side with {vocalsound} all the D_V_D_ and V_C_R_ access and stuff , and then on the other side o {vocalsound} one uh a remote control that would be very very simple with just the channel , program plus and {vocalsound} minus , and the just the mute button , for example . I can real keep it really really simple on one side and the other side be very complicated .
Project Manager: One side for kids , one side for adults .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm not sure if that's like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Or grandma as well , you know it's like {vocalsound} what is the mute button .
User Interface: I'm not sure if it's a good idea to have a two sided remote though , 'cause it would be very hard to use in the way that you mani manipulate it .
Industrial Designer: No , but you would slide it into uh someth like something on the back would hold {disfmarker} like you wouldn't be able to press the buttons , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh .
Project Manager: Like it {gap}
User Interface: Oh okay .
Project Manager: or something like a flip telephone , something like that maybe . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . Okay .
Marketing: That would be cool .
Project Manager: F flip it open and you've got all the buttons , or you flip it closed and you've just got the basic buttons on the outside maybe .
Marketing: I was thinking that like a flip .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um , oh we've got five minutes left .
Industrial Designer: Start breaking up .
Project Manager: But {disfmarker} okay .
Marketing: Okay . Um .
Project Manager: Well we've got a k we've got a few ideas there .
User Interface: Yeah , we should uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} .
User Interface: I guess by the end of this meeting we should have at least a a rough conception {disfmarker} you know {gap} stage one was technical functions design , what effect the apparatus should have . Okay . Um so I mean we still have time in our next meeting to come up with the actual concept for the user interface , but the the functions that we're sure that we want are that it can control the T_V_ , but also devices connected to the to the T_V_ , I mean , be able to operate
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: D_V_D_ players , things like that .
Project Manager: I have got {disfmarker} I think we should also have a back-up plan of {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} 'cause I I I just think that it might be expensive to make something that {disfmarker} I mean we don't , we haven't been told it has to be something that will control everything . We should have a back-up plan of just a really good television remote control , that just {disfmarker} that is just for a T_V_ , but it's just a really good , nice one .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay . Right .
Project Manager: What do you reckon ? See 'cause , {gap} I'm just thinking {disfmarker} bearing in mind th we've gotta {disfmarker} we have to have something that's cheap to make .
User Interface: Yeah , I mean {gap} . Yeah , that's true , maybe we should just concentrate on having a a good T_V_ remote , and have it be um
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think we'll be able to come up with ideas and stuff a lot quicker .
User Interface: have it be like ergonomic so it's comfortable to use ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: uh simple to use , and looks decent and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: May w you know , maybe even {disfmarker}
Marketing: But what'll make it what'll make it interesting for people to buy though ?
Project Manager: Or maybe even so something that's for disabled people
Marketing: I mean if it's if it's just like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: or so people that uh b don't see very well or {disfmarker} big buttons for {disfmarker} touchy buttons for {disfmarker}
User Interface: Sorta find a niche for our remote , like market it to a certain kind of p kind of people ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Or just one that looks really fucking cool .
User Interface: certain certain demographic {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Could be really light or , I dunno , something special .
User Interface: Yeah , no I think you're right . Yeah , rathe rather than focus on {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Otherwise we'll be we'll be here all day talking about {gap} do this let's do that n I think we sh I think we should {disfmarker}
User Interface: Y {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , 'cause at the end of the day if it says just T_V_ remote , doesn't say com combination with all all the r {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . I mean obviously everyone {disfmarker} we're uh you know uh sounds like we're all a bit sort of gadget heads and we like things that do everything at once , but you know , that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Remotes spinning out from other remotes and having little nested remotes inside . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah , that's right . Yeah . I mean I'd like one that makes tea as well , but {vocalsound} that's not gonna happen .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think a flip up thing , 'cause you always have this problem of like if it's on this {disfmarker} well I did anyway , like we had five or six remotes and they would be lying on the c on the coach , and you'd come and sit down and {disfmarker} ooh , the telephone's {disfmarker} the television switched on or something . So maybe something that like does have a lid or closes , so you don't accidentally press a button or record button for something .
Project Manager: Okay , like a lock f like a lock functs function on it like you have on your telephones , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . But make it like really snazzy and cool {gap} people will want it . So make it {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , it's gotta be sellable . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , that's true what you were saying , I mean it doesn't have to have a flip function , it can just have a lock function , so that it's not uh not usable when you don't want it to be usable .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: And even for kids as well . It's um it's safer for them , I guess . Like they don't flick onto channels and all that sl flick onto . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No porn channel for children .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Um alright ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so we've got some ideas , we've got um {disfmarker}
User Interface: I guess that's good good for now .
Project Manager: Let's move on .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Oops , let's close that . Next meeting , uh okay .
Marketing: W What does I_D_V_I_D_N_M_E_ stand for ?
Project Manager: Industrial Designer um which is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah ri okay . {gap} these are requirement specification .
Project Manager: Um .
Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker} Mm .
Marketing: And I'm marketing .
Project Manager: Yeah , there you go . {vocalsound} So {gap} {disfmarker} User Interface Designer , that's that's
User Interface: That's me . Okay .
Project Manager: that's you , so you gotta {gap} you go , you're you're gonna be the one that's working out what what buttons we need . Um .
User Interface: Right . Right .
Project Manager: Industrial Designer , you are the one {gap} , you know , you're gonna be working out kind of box it goes in , I guess so , um whether it's {gap} what goes into the box , somehow .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Har how it works an
Project Manager: And in marketing {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Bu
Marketing: {vocalsound} These are requirement specification .
Project Manager: User requirements specifications .
Marketing: So what the user requires
Project Manager: Yeah , what {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Do you think our two kind of overlap , because {disfmarker}
Marketing: in a remote .
Project Manager: Right , okay , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , it does seem like our our responsibilities have some overlap .
Marketing: I guess that's what it says .
Project Manager: You two {vocalsound} you two are gonna be just , I think , you just double up , you know , you {disfmarker} working together .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: You're the one that's gotta go and find out {disfmarker} do th do the research , see what people want in a remote , what buttons are used more often , and s stuff like that .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh , we've been warned to finish the meeting now . Okay . Okay everyone , well done .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Good meeting .
User Interface: Alright , see you in thirty minutes .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {vocalsound} , do we take these off ?
Industrial Designer: I don't {disfmarker}
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doc_93
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Marketing: I wanna find our if our remote works .
Project Manager: Me too . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Um here's the agenda for our last meeting .
Marketing: Whoohoo .
Project Manager: Um after the opening we're going to have a prototype presentation , then we're going to discuss the evaluation criteria and the financing of our remote . Then we're going to evaluate the product and I think the whole production process , and then we're gonna close it up , and we have forty minutes , so let's get started . Oh , no , let's have the prototype presentation .
Industrial Designer: Mm 'kay ,
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: you ready ?
User Interface: Um sure . You or me ?
Industrial Designer: Y you read that stuff , since you wrote it .
User Interface: Okay . Well , since our materials aren't exactly what we were going for , I'm just gonna translate what this all means for you .
Industrial Designer: I'll be the Vanna .
User Interface: {vocalsound} The base is gonna be gunmetal gray , which is what we had decided , and it's gonna be plastic . Um then there's the latex cover , which is what you see as red . Um because it can be replaceable , we just kinda went with the colour .
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: Um and then the buttons are actually kind of poking through rather than on top . Um and the buttons will be a l much lighter blue , almost see-through .
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: It's just sort of a very pale blue and a light-up yellow .
Marketing: That's nice .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: The whole thing lights up if you press any button , rather than it {disfmarker} just that one button will light up .
Marketing: Good .
User Interface: Um and then at the bottom we have our logo . Um bright yellow sort of design with the R_R_ {vocalsound} which will actually look like our logo .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Great .
User Interface: And then on the side you have the buttons . {vocalsound} They're one button , but they kind of push up and down .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: I don't think they're scrolling .
Industrial Designer: No . They're just buttons .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Right , yeah . And then {disfmarker} yeah , the buttons .
Industrial Designer: On off switch will be here and as you've noticed on our prototype um they've ended up with a curvature kind of , by concave sort of thing , except for , you know , {gap} can't see underneath .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So I'm hoping that when we get to production we can actually make them like that , because they're very nice to stock {gap} you know , stick your finger in . Um the two squared buttons are are two probably least used , menu , mute ,
User Interface: Thumb-shaped .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and then these are the numbers , so our channel and our volume will be on either side .
User Interface: Yeah . And then the last thing is just that it'll be black labelling on top , just which we didn't do . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . And did you determine um the curvature of the bottom part of it for the hand , is it gonna be a single or a double ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'd say a single .
Project Manager: Single . Single sounds good ,
User Interface: Single .
Project Manager: 'cause it's not big enough to really constitute a double .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's only actually the size of my hand .
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: Great . Great . I think you did an awesome job .
Marketing: Yeah , I think it's a beautiful {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It is beautiful , and it's everything that we discussed .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . Good job , you guys .
Project Manager: Good job .
Industrial Designer: Whoohoo .
User Interface: Oh thank you . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Those are really good .
Project Manager: Alright {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: what's next in our agenda ? Um we're gonna discuss the evaluation criteria , and that's with Courtney .
Marketing: Okay , it's a PowerPoint presentation . I don't really know exactly what we should uh talk about . It's under evaluation .
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: Alright . Um so these are the criteria we're gonna ask , is it easy to use , is it fashionable uh {disfmarker} yeah , I guess we should write these down so we can reference them .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Feel good meaning what ?
Marketing: Like does it feel good , like {disfmarker}
User Interface: Physically ,
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: okay .
Marketing: yeah , physically .
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Sqi {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That's just for current trend .
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It doesn't really count , you guys .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it was a little difficult to incorporate the cover with the cherry fruit on it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . But it's {disfmarker} so we do have removable covers , right ?
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah , well then that's covered .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Marketing: And so we n k everybody have that ?
Project Manager: I'll wait .
Marketing: Yeah , she's got it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: It's good . Yeah . Okay so , we're using the criteria uh for a seven point scale , and so we need to discuss how we feel . It falls within this range , so for easy to use , do we feel it's very easy to use ?
Project Manager: Are we going to indi
User Interface: True or false , easy to use .
Project Manager: I say we individually rate {disfmarker} what do you say ?
Marketing: You guys {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just orally .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Why not ? We have {disfmarker} okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Um easy to use . I vote six .
Marketing: Oh wait , that's false .
Project Manager: Oh ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: two .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I'd say two as well .
User Interface: Yeah , two .
Marketing: Two . That's what I say .
Project Manager: Uh hello , we're great .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay , fashionable ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um one .
Industrial Designer: At the moment , no .
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: No . I mean like no , I think it's very fashionable .
Project Manager: Me too , very chic . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I thi I would give it a one .
Project Manager: One , I give it a one .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'll give it a two , because at the moment it's not looking that way .
Project Manager: Oh , and ma it's a prototype ,
Marketing: Well , that's that's just like {disfmarker} that's a clay , it's a prototype .
Project Manager: right .
User Interface: Mm I don't think it's that fashionable .
Marketing: What do you think ?
User Interface: I'd give it like three or four .
Project Manager: Well , now I'm {gap} .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: So , the average is about a two .
User Interface: {vocalsound} But then I'm not fashionable , so
Marketing: Yeah , it's a two .
Project Manager: Two or three . Two point five .
User Interface: don't use my opinion .
Marketing: That's okay . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Neither are all o all the customers we have , either .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: does it feel good ?
Project Manager: Imagine , since we obviously don't have that .
User Interface: Does it feel good ?
Marketing: I feel like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh the shape of it actually does uh .
Project Manager: And it's i it is very ergonomically designed . It's gonna be curved .
User Interface: Yeah , it's gonna be thicker .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Depth .
Marketing: I think it feels good .
Project Manager: I think so too .
Marketing: I'll give it a two .
Project Manager: 'Kay . Two .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'll give it a one .
Marketing: What do you say ?
Industrial Designer: I'd say a two .
Project Manager: Alright , average is two .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Is it technologically innovative ? Oh sorry I'm taking over your job here .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh no , it's fine ,
Project Manager: Go right ahead . {vocalsound}
Marketing: you're {disfmarker} I mean you're Project Manager .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um yeah , I mean and it {disfmarker} does it have voice {disfmarker} I mean the phrase recognition on it ?
Project Manager: Yes . Right ? We were able to do it with that kind of chip .
User Interface: Oh right , the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We could do it with the chip , yes . It wasn't {disfmarker} we have no reflection of it on the prototype ,
Marketing: And there's no way you can represent it on here . Y
Project Manager: Yeah , right .
Industrial Designer: but that's because it's only two dimensions , really .
Project Manager: That was {disfmarker} 'kay . And we discussed that being included .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , so .
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: Then yes , then I would {disfmarker} well it isn't {disfmarker} what else would it need for it to be technologically innovative ?
Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well we don' have the {disfmarker} you know , we can't say channel , and it changes the channel , channel eight .
Marketing: And it doesn't cover anything other then T_V_ ,
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: so I'd probably give it a three .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Even though it is {disfmarker} for just a T_V_ remote it's uh very advanced . But it is just a T_V_ remote .
Project Manager: Yeah . I'd go for a three or four on that one , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah I go four .
Project Manager: okay , let's go for a three point five .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Three and an half .
Project Manager: Alright , and the last criteria {disfmarker} is it is it um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Squishy and fruity .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well yeah , so I'd give it a two .
Project Manager: Well , we've covered that with the
User Interface: It's just trendy , basically .
Project Manager: trendy . Sure . Capable . Very capable .
Industrial Designer: It's capable of being squishy and fruity .
Marketing: Oh , it's very capable of being squishy and fruity .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: And {vocalsound} it's very important . 'Kay , there we go .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So .
Marketing: Okay , next .
Project Manager: Next . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So um our re model slightly resembling a giant delicious cookie appears to be a winner ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and uh hopefully we'll sell millions . Good job , team . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} How did you get that in there ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} What ?
Industrial Designer: The {vocalsound} slightly resembling a giant delicious cookie .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It does .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It {vocalsound} it does . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That was good .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Very good .
Marketing: Thanks .
Project Manager: Alright , let's go back to this {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No , that's it . Hmm . Oops . Okay , so now uh we're moving on to finance , okay . I'm gonna show you an Excel spreadsheet and we're going to fill it in together based on what components we're including in our remote and see if it's under twelve fifty Euro . If so , we can proceed , if not , we need to go back to the drawing board a little bit . 'Kay ? So let me bring that up . Here we go . Alright . Um it's not hand dynamo , it's powered by battery , so we give it a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Two .
Project Manager: Number of components you plan to use . Do I just put quantity being one battery , or {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm 'kay .
Project Manager: But if it's a {disfmarker} do you wanna go for {disfmarker} this is where we need to make a final call on if it's a lithium or do we wanna go triple A_s , 'cause triple A_s we're gonna have t do more than one battery . Oh , let's just go for a lithium . What do you say ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , let's let's do a lithium .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think uh I think the people who purchase this are gonna be technologically
Industrial Designer: it's {gap} .
Marketing: We're gon that's gon Nologically advanced ,
Project Manager: {disfmarker} right .
Marketing: yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , down to the electronics um section . We're gonna need this kind , correct , if we do the voice sensor ,
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: so one of those . It is a single-curved , so one of those .
Marketing: Uh {gap} .
Project Manager: Oh . What's that ? Yeah , that's correct .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: 'Kay , down here , case material .
User Interface: It's plastic .
Marketing: We {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Plastic .
Marketing: plastic .
User Interface: And special colour .
Marketing: And special colour .
Project Manager: 'Kay . {vocalsound} Down here , interface type . We're gonna have the integrated scroll scroll wheel .
User Interface: No , we don't have the scroll .
Project Manager: Isn't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: oh those are just regular buttons .
Industrial Designer: Well , that's the push-button too , right there .
User Interface: Buttons .
Marketing: But it's {disfmarker} Yeah ,
Project Manager: This ?
Marketing: but i so i
Industrial Designer: Integrated scroll-wheel or push-button .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We're really having just push-button interface .
Project Manager: Okay , so we can just go {disfmarker} um .
Marketing: But will we w actually we'll need two , won't we ? One for the top and then one for the s one e for each side .
Industrial Designer: But it {disfmarker} that just covers the type of button we're having . Because we're not doing a scroll on the side , it's still push-button .
User Interface: Oh like the {disfmarker} twenty nine means like you have both scrolls and
Industrial Designer: Push-button .
Project Manager: Right I think she's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But we just have push
User Interface: push-buttons .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: But we don't have any scrolls .
Project Manager: I think what Courtney's talking about is do we need to put two here ?
Marketing: Like because there's like one interface right here and then {disfmarker} because it's not gonna be on the same plane when you press the button .
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: There's gonna have to be additional signals on the sides .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Okay .
Marketing: So is that gonna be an extra one on each side ?
Project Manager: I don't know , they might put us {disfmarker} well , let's just .
User Interface: Two interfaces , is that what w should we s say ?
Project Manager: Two or would it be three ?
Industrial Designer: Let's call it th
Marketing: Or three , because of one on each side and one on top .
User Interface: Okay , fine . Yeah .
Marketing: I mean it's fine 'cause it comes out the same as twenty nine . Well less than twenty nine even .
Project Manager: Okay
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: and we're gonna {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: button supplements {disfmarker} the buttons are no uh okay .
Marketing: They're a special colour . Um they're uh they're a special form , 'cause they're indented .
Project Manager: Are they ? Oh , right .
User Interface: And then s
Marketing: And , they're a special material .
User Interface: yeah .
Project Manager: Mm . Well , we're under cost then . Alright .
User Interface: We're over ?
Project Manager: No , we're under .
Industrial Designer: Grand .
Marketing: We're under .
Project Manager: Twelve point five is our limit .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: We've got eleven point two .
User Interface: Oh , I see .
Project Manager: Alright .
Industrial Designer: So we can go to production .
Project Manager: We can go to {disfmarker} I dunno what I just did . {vocalsound} Okay . Now we're gonna talk about the project process um and whether or not we're satisfied with the whole process and the result . Um did we have a lot of room for creativity ? Did we have a lot of room for individual leadership , um teamwork , and the means , meaning the technology that we used to produce our little guy there , and if we found any new ideas . Now , question is , how do we do this ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Go back .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think we just discuss it .
Project Manager: Discuss , sure .
Industrial Designer: Previous .
Project Manager: Alright . Who want who would like to go first ?
Industrial Designer: We think we got stifled for cri {vocalsound} creativity by the company itself , in restricting us only to using a T_V_ remote , initially .
User Interface: We didn't have a whiteboard .
Project Manager: Hmm . Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Oh that's true .
User Interface: And no internet .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} No , yeah , that's a good point . 'Cause I'd forgotten that that wasn't our decision , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And how did you feel about the whole the whole process though ?
Marketing: Oh , overall I mean I thought we did a good job like {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: We got to choose {disfmarker} basically we had control over {disfmarker} minus it being just merely a T_V_ remote we got to choose what we wanted to do with it .
Project Manager: Right , and we got say over what {disfmarker} how technologically advanced it should be and also how fashionable , which I kind of like {disfmarker}
Marketing: And we're a fashion forward technology company .
Project Manager: we {disfmarker} yep . You know it .
Industrial Designer: {gap} right .
Project Manager: Um what about um the teamwork aspect ? How did you guys enjoy making the model , the prototype ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: I think we did well .
Project Manager: I think ya' did . Did you work well together in there , and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yep . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'kay .
Industrial Designer: Well , no , there was there was scratching and fighting , but {disfmarker} no {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Minus that one fight .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Gouges .
Project Manager: Oh my God ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: and we've all been a pretty congenial team here , I think .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We hadn't had any ma fallings out .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . I mean minus you guys being wha what is it , the survey , annoying or what is it ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Irritating .
Industrial Designer: Irritating . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Irritating .
Marketing: Irritating , yeah . Wow that's a {disfmarker} it's definitely a strong one .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: The means , the whiteboard didn't work . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: And no internet .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I have to knock that one down a couple notches .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} A and our friend here really feels strongly about the internet . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , and no internet .
User Interface: Misses . I do .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: There's so much available .
Marketing: And the digital the digital pens
User Interface: Like it's information
Project Manager: Yeah , digital pens .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I really appreciated those , yeah .
Marketing: were {disfmarker} they were pretty cool .
Project Manager: They were fine .
Marketing: Yeah they were fun , even though I'm not really sure what I could do with them , but they are awesome . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The use of the laptops for receiving everything .
Project Manager: Right , laptops are extremely handy ,
Industrial Designer: It was wireless too , so .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: wireless . And that we have a shared network where we can put all of the {disfmarker}
Marketing: And these things whoa .
Industrial Designer: And let's not forget the sexy dual microphones everyone gets to wear .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . And Big Brother .
Project Manager: Big brother .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'Kay , have we found any new ideas through this process ?
Marketing: Um we are really gonna sell this .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Ta-da .
Project Manager: For something that looks cool and also has what I want it to b do technologically .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: And that's your right brain taking over , w wanting the artistic , the fashionable , the hip , you know .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: If we all just went out and bought useful things , I don't think {disfmarker} I mean that's not what technology .
User Interface: Well , that's why I don't like uh Macs or Apples , just 'cause I look at it , and I know it's probably a very good computer , but I look at it , and I'm taken back to elementary school , 'cause they look the same .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: They look like they did when I was in elementary school ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: and that's so old-fashioned to me .
Marketing: Yeah , 'cause they're pretty and just like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The Toronto district school would only use his Macs with their kids .
User Interface: Exactly , so I associate them with like really low-tech , really cheap , bad {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Just the Mac font bothers me even .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Uh yeah .
Project Manager: But I do like iPods , go figure .
Marketing: Yeah , no , iPods {vocalsound} {disfmarker} They want all those words for presentation , even the plugs .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well , i iPods are now quite trendy ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and they come in different colours .
Project Manager: Colours . Exactly . I mean how many people went out and bough a Nokia phone , back when we were like in high school , just so they could get the changeable face plates .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh yeah , everybody .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Anyway , so that is definitely at work .
Industrial Designer: Not me .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mine is amber .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I didn't have a phone 'til university .
User Interface: But the {disfmarker} my {disfmarker} but my one issue is just like the whole it's for T_V_ only .
Marketing: Oh .
User Interface: I was like who's gonna buy a remote just for the T_V_ unless they've lost theirs .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Look at it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fashionable chic people will .
User Interface: You're kidding .
Marketing: That is a piece of work .
User Interface: No , no .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Wow . Marketing Director says yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} No , marketing has to actually create the desire for it . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Fashionable people will buy it . Oh , I will create desire . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's okay . We can create a commercial where they think that all their needs will be met . This will help them find the one .
User Interface: Ri {vocalsound} They'll be sexy with it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: That's right .
Marketing: We could have like an Adam and Eve type commercial , and that's the fig-leaf .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh right .
Marketing: Mm . {vocalsound} That'll sell .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And so the serpent says , use our remote . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: There you go , marketing {gap} .
User Interface: Let you loose .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , no .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay , we're gonna wrap this up now . Um the costs are within the budget , we evaluated the project ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and now we're gonna complete the final questionnaire and meeting summary , and then we're going to have a big giant party , apparently , according to this , so . Alright , thank you team ,
Industrial Designer: Whoohoo . Margaritas for everyone . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you did a great job , it was lovely working with you .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Good .
Marketing: You too .
Industrial Designer: Yay . Thanks to the Project Leader .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Now we know w
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Professor E: Let 's see . Test ? Test ? Yeah . OK .
Grad A: Hello ?
PhD B: Channel one .
Grad A: Hello ?
PhD C: Test .
Professor E: I was saying Hynek 'll be here next week , uh , Wednesday through Friday {disfmarker} uh , through Saturday , and , um , I won't be here Thursday and Friday . But my suggestion is that , uh , at least for this meeting , people should go ahead , uh , cuz Hynek will be here , and , you know , we don't have any Czech accent yet , uh , {vocalsound} as far as I know , so {disfmarker} There we go .
PhD F: OK .
Professor E: Um . So other than reading digits , what 's our agenda ?
PhD F: I don't really have , uh , anything new . Been working on {pause} Meeting Recorder stuff . So .
Professor E: OK . Um . Do you think that would be the case for next week also ? Or is {disfmarker} is , uh {disfmarker} ? What 's your projection on {disfmarker} ?
PhD F: Um .
Professor E: Cuz the one thing {disfmarker} the one thing that seems to me we really should try , if you hadn't tried it before , because it hadn't occurred to me {disfmarker} it was sort of an obvious thing {disfmarker} is , um , adjusting the , uh , sca the scaling and , uh , insertion penalty sorta stuff .
PhD F: I did play with that , actually , a little bit . Um . What happens is , uh , {vocalsound} when you get to the noisy stuff , you start getting lots of insertions .
Professor E: Right .
PhD F: And , um , so I 've tried playing around a little bit with , um , the insertion penalties and things like that .
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD F: Um . I mean , it {disfmarker} it didn't make a whole lot of difference . Like for the well - matched case , it seemed like it was pretty good . Um . {vocalsound} I could do more playing with that , though . And , uh {disfmarker}
Professor E: But you were looking at mel cepstrum .
PhD F: and see . Yes .
Professor E: Right .
PhD F: Oh , you 're talking about for th {vocalsound} for our features .
Professor E: Right . So , I mean , i it it 's not the direction that you were working with that we were saying what 's the {disfmarker} uh , what 's the best you can do with {disfmarker} with mel cepstrum . But , they raised a very valid point ,
PhD F: Mmm .
Professor E: which , I guess {disfmarker} So , to first order {disfmarker} I mean , you have other things you were gonna do , but to first order , I would say that the conclusion is that if you , um , do , uh , some monkeying around with , uh , the exact HTK training and @ @ {comment} with , uh , you know , how many states and so forth , that it {disfmarker} it doesn't particularly improve the performance . In other words , that even though it sounds pretty dumb , just applying the same number of states to everything , more or less , no matter what language , isn't so bad . Right ? And I guess you hadn't gotten to all the experiments you wanted to do with number of Gaussians ,
PhD F: Right .
Professor E: but , um , let 's just {disfmarker} If we had to {disfmarker} if we had to draw a conclusion on the information we have so far , we 'd say something like that . Right ?
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Uh , so the next question to ask , which is I think the one that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that Andreas was dre addressing himself to in the lunch meeting , is , um , we 're not supposed to adjust the back - end , but anybody using the system would .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor E: So , if you were just adjusting the back - end , how much better would you do , uh , in noise ? Uh , because the language scaling and insertion penalties and so forth are probably set to be about right for mel cepstrum .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: But , um , they 're probably not at all set right for these things , particularly these things that look over , uh , larger time windows , in one way or another with {disfmarker} with LDA and KLT and neural nets and {vocalsound} all these things . In the fa past we 've always found that we had to increase the insertion penalty to {disfmarker} to correspond to such things . So , I think that 's , uh , @ @ {comment} that 's kind of a first - order thing that {disfmarker} that we should try .
PhD F: So for th so the experiment is to , um , run our front - end like normal , with the default , uh , insertion penalties and so forth , and then tweak that a little bit and see how much of a difference it makes
Professor E: So by " our front - end " I mean take , you know , the Aurora - two s take some version that Stephane has that is , you know , our current best version of something .
PhD F: if we were {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Um . I mean , y don't wanna do this over a hundred different things that they 've tried but , you know , for some version that you say is a good one . You know ? Um . How {disfmarker} how much , uh , does it improve if you actually adjust that ?
PhD F: OK .
Professor E: But it is interesting . You say you {disfmarker} you have for the noisy {disfmarker} How about for the {disfmarker} for the mismatched or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or the {disfmarker} or the medium mismatched conditions ? Have you {disfmarker} ? When you adjusted those numbers for mel cepstrum , did it {disfmarker} ?
PhD F: Uh , I {disfmarker} I don't remember off the top of my head . Um . Yeah . I didn't even write them down . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't remember . I would need to {disfmarker} Well , I did write down , um {disfmarker} So , when I was doing {disfmarker} I just wrote down some numbers for the well - matched case .
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD F: Um . Looking at the {disfmarker} I wrote down what the deletions , substitutions , and insertions were , uh , for different numbers of states per phone .
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD F: Um , but , uh , that {disfmarker} that 's all I wrote down .
Professor E: OK .
PhD F: So . I {disfmarker} I would {disfmarker} Yeah . I would need to do that .
Professor E: OK . So {disfmarker}
PhD F: I can do that for next week .
Professor E: Yeah . And , um {disfmarker} Yeah . Also , eh , eh , sometimes if you run behind on some of these things , maybe we can get someone else to do it and you can supervise or something . But {disfmarker} but I think it would be {disfmarker} it 'd be good to know that .
PhD F: OK . I just need to get , um , {vocalsound} front - end , uh , stuff from you
PhD B: Hmm .
PhD F: or you point me to some files {pause} that you 've already calculated .
PhD B: Yeah . Alright .
Professor E: OK . Uh .
PhD F: I probably will have time to do that and time to play a little bit with the silence model .
Professor E: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: So maybe I can have that for next week when Hynek 's here .
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Yeah . Cuz , I mean , the {disfmarker} the other {disfmarker} That , in fact , might have been part of what , uh , the difference was {disfmarker} at least part of it that {disfmarker} that we were seeing . Remember we were seeing the SRI system was so much better than the tandem system .
PhD F: Hmm .
Professor E: Part of it might just be that the SRI system , they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they always adjust these things to be sort of optimized ,
PhD F: Is there {disfmarker} ?
Professor E: and {disfmarker}
PhD F: I wonder if there 's anything that we could do {vocalsound} to the front - end that would affect the insertion {disfmarker}
Professor E: Yes . I think you can .
PhD F: What could you do ?
Professor E: Well , um {disfmarker} uh , part of what 's going on , um , is the , uh , the range of values . So , if you have something that has a much smaller range or a much larger range , and taking the appropriate root .
PhD F: Oh . Mm - hmm .
Professor E: You know ? If something is kind of like the equivalent of a bunch of probabilities multiplied together , you can take a root of some sort . If it 's like seven probabilities together , you can take the seventh root of it or something , or if it 's in the log domain , divide it by seven .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: But {disfmarker} but , um , that has a similar effect because it changes the scale of the numbers {disfmarker} of the differences between different candidates from the acoustic model
PhD F: Oh , right .
Professor E: as opposed to what 's coming from the language model .
PhD F: So that w Right . So , in effect , that 's changing the value of your insertion penalty .
Professor E: Yeah . I mean , it 's more directly like the {disfmarker} the language scaling or the , uh {disfmarker} the model scaling or acoustic scaling ,
PhD F: That 's interesting .
Professor E: but you know that those things have kind of a similar effect to the insertion penalty
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: anyway . They 're a slightly different way of {disfmarker} of handling it .
PhD F: Right .
Professor E: So , um {disfmarker}
PhD F: So if we know what the insertion penalty is , then we can get an idea about what range our number should be in ,
Professor E: I think so .
PhD F: so that they {pause} match with that .
Professor E: Yeah . Yeah . So that 's why I think that 's another reason other than curiosity as to why i it would in fact be kinda neat to find out if we 're way off . I mean , the other thing is , are aren't we seeing {disfmarker} ? Y y
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: I 'm sure you 've already looked at this bu in these noisy cases , are {disfmarker} ? We are seeing lots of insertions . Right ? The insertion number is quite high ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor E: I know the VAD takes pre care of part of that ,
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor E: but {disfmarker}
PhD F: I 've seen that with the mel cepstrum . I don't {disfmarker} I don't know about {pause} the Aurora front - end , but {disfmarker}
PhD B: I think it 's much more balanced with , uh {disfmarker} when the front - end is more robust . Yeah . I could look at it {disfmarker} at this . Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Yeah . Wha - what 's a typical number ?
PhD B: I don't {disfmarker} I don't know .
Professor E: Do we {disfmarker} ? Oh , you {disfmarker} oh , you don't know .
PhD B: I don't have this in {disfmarker}
Professor E: OK . I 'm sure it 's more balanced ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: but it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it wouldn't surprise me if there 's still {disfmarker}
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: I mean , in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the old systems we used to do , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} uh , I remember numbers kind of like insertions being half the number of deletions , as being {disfmarker} and both numbers being {disfmarker} tend to be on the small side comparing to {disfmarker} to , uh , substitutions .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Well , this {disfmarker} the whole problem with insertions was what I think , um , we talked about when the guy from OGI came down {pause} that one time and {disfmarker} and that was when people were saying , well we should have a , uh , uh , voice activity detector {disfmarker}
Professor E: Right .
PhD F: that , because all that stuff {comment} that we 're getting thr the silence that 's getting through is causing insertions . So .
PhD B: Mmm .
Professor E: Right .
PhD F: I 'll bet you there 's still a lot {vocalsound} of insertions .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Yeah . And it may be less of a critical thing . I mean , the fact that some get by may be less of a critical thing if you , uh , get things in the right range .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: So , I mean , the insertions is {disfmarker} is a symptom . It 's a symptom that there 's something , uh , wrong with the range .
PhD F: Right .
Professor E: But there 's {disfmarker} uh , your {disfmarker} your {disfmarker} your substitutions tend to go up as well . So , uh , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that ,
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: uh , the most obvious thing is just the insertions , @ @ . But {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} um . If you 're operating in the wrong range {disfmarker} I mean , that 's why just in general , if you {vocalsound} change what these {disfmarker} these penalties and scaling factors are , you reach some point that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a minimum . So . Um . Um . We do have to do well over a range of different conditions , some of which are noisier than others . Um . But , um , I think we may get a better handle on that if we {disfmarker} if we see {disfmarker} Um , I mean we ca it 's if we actually could pick a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a more stable value for the range of these features , it , um , uh , could {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} Even though it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's true that in a real situation you can in fact adjust the {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these scaling factors in the back - end , and it 's ar artificial here that we 're not adjusting those , you certainly don't wanna be adjusting those all the time . And if you have a nice front - end that 's in roughly the right range {disfmarker}
PhD F: Hmm .
Professor E: I remember after we got our stuff more or less together in the previous systems we built , that we tended to set those scaling factors at kind of a standard level , and we would rarely adjust them again , even though you could get a {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: for an evaluation you can get an extra point or something if you tweaked it a little bit . But , once we knew what rou roughly the right operating range was , it was pretty stable , and {disfmarker} Uh , we might just not even be in the right operating range .
PhD F: So , would the {disfmarker} ? Uh , would a good idea be to try to map it into the same range that you get in the well - matched case ? So , if we computed what the range was in well - matched , and then when we get our noisy conditions out we try to make it have the same range as {disfmarker} ?
Professor E: No . You don't wanna change it for different conditions . No . No . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} What {disfmarker} what I 'm saying {disfmarker}
PhD F: Oh , I wasn't suggesting change it for different conditions . I was just saying that when we pick a range , we {disfmarker} we wanna pick a range that we map our numbers into {disfmarker}
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD F: we should probably pick it based on the range that we get in the well - matched case . Otherwise , I mean , what range are we gonna choose to {disfmarker} to map everything into ?
Professor E: Well . It depends how much we wanna do gamesmanship and how much we wanna do {disfmarker} I mean , i if he it {disfmarker} to me , actually , even if you wanna be {disfmarker} play on the gamesmanship side , it can be kinda tricky . So , I mean , what you would do is set the {disfmarker} set the scaling factors , uh , so that you got the best number for this point four five times the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , and so on .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: But they might change that {disfmarker} those weightings .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor E: Um . So {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} I just sorta think we need to explore the space . Just take a look at it a little bit .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: And we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we may just find that {disfmarker} that we 're way off .
PhD F: OK . Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Maybe we 're not . You know ? As for these other things , it may turn out that , uh , {vocalsound} it 's kind of reasonable . But then {disfmarker} I mean , Andreas gave a very reasonable response , and he 's probably not gonna be the only one who 's gonna say this in the future {disfmarker} of , you know , people {disfmarker} people within this tight - knit community who are doing this evaluation {vocalsound} are accepting , uh , more or less , that these are the rules . But , people outside of it who look in at the broader picture are certainly gonna say " Well , wait a minute . You 're doing all this standing on your head , uh , on the front - end ,
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor E: when all you could do is just adjust this in the back - end with one s one knob . "
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: And so we have to at least , I think , determine that that 's not true , which would be OK , or determine that it is true , in which case we want to adjust that and then continue with {disfmarker} with what we 're doing . And as you say {disfmarker} as you point out {disfmarker} finding ways to then compensate for that in the front - end {vocalsound} also then becomes a priority for this particular test ,
PhD F: Right .
Professor E: and saying you don't have to do that .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: So . OK . So , uh {disfmarker} What 's new with you ?
PhD B: Uh . So there 's nothing {pause} new . Um .
Professor E: Uh , what 's old with you that 's developed ?
PhD B: I 'm sorry ?
Professor E: You {disfmarker} OK . What 's old with you that has developed over the last week or two ?
PhD B: Mmm . Well , so we 've been mainly working on the report and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD F: Mainly working on what ?
PhD B: On the report {pause} of the work that was already done .
PhD F: Oh .
PhD B: Um . Mm - hmm . That 's all .
PhD F: How about that {disfmarker} ? Any - anything new on the thing that , uh , you were working on with the , uh {disfmarker} ?
PhD C: I don't have results yet .
PhD F: No results ? Yeah .
Professor E: What was that ?
PhD F: The {disfmarker} the , uh ,
Grad A: Voicing thing .
PhD F: voicing detector .
Professor E: I mean , what what 's {disfmarker} what 's going on now ? What are you {pause} doing ?
PhD C: Uh , to try to found , nnn , robust feature for detect between voice and unvoice . And we {disfmarker} w we try to use {vocalsound} the variance {vocalsound} of the es difference between the FFT spectrum and mel filter bank spectrum .
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD C: Uh , also the {disfmarker} another parameter is {disfmarker} relates with the auto - correlation function .
Professor E: Uh - huh .
PhD C: R - ze energy and the variance a also of the auto - correlation function .
Professor E: Uh - huh . So , that 's {disfmarker} Yeah . That 's what you were describing , I guess , a week or two ago .
PhD C: Yeah . But we don't have res we don't have result of the AURO for Aurora yet .
Professor E: So .
PhD C: We need to train the neural network
Professor E: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: and {disfmarker}
Professor E: So you 're training neural networks now ?
PhD C: No , not yet .
Professor E: So , what {disfmarker} wha {vocalsound} wh wha what what 's going on ?
PhD C: Well , we work in the report , too , because we have a lot of result ,
Professor E: Uh - huh .
PhD C: they are very dispersed , and was necessary to {disfmarker} to look in all the directory to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to give some more structure .
PhD B: Yea
Professor E: So . B So {disfmarker} Yeah . I if I can summarize , basically what 's going on is that you 're going over a lot of material that you have generated in furious fashion , f generating many results and doing many experiments and trying to pull it together into some coherent form to be able to see wha see what happens .
PhD C: Hm - hmm .
PhD B: Uh , y yeah . Basically we we 've stopped , uh , experimenting ,
Professor E: Yes ?
PhD B: I mean . We 're just writing some kind of technical report . And {disfmarker}
PhD F: Is this a report that 's for Aurora ? Or is it just like a tech report for ICSI ,
PhD C: No .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD C: For ICSI .
PhD F: or {disfmarker} ? Ah . I see .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD C: Just summary of the experiment and the conclusion and something like that .
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: OK . So , my suggestion , though , is that you {disfmarker} you not necessarily finish that . But that you put it all together so that it 's {disfmarker} you 've got {disfmarker} you 've got a clearer structure to it . You know what things are , you have things documented , you 've looked things up that you needed to look up .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: So that , you know {disfmarker} so that such a thing can be written . And , um {disfmarker} When {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when do you leave again ?
PhD C: Uh , in July . First of July .
Professor E: First of July ? OK . And that you figure on actually finishing it in {disfmarker} in June . Because , you know , you 're gonna have another bunch of results to fit in there anyway .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: And right now it 's kind of important that we actually go forward with experiments .
PhD C: It 's not .
Professor E: So {disfmarker} so , I {disfmarker} I think it 's good to pause , and to gather everything together and make sure it 's in good shape , so that other people can get access to it and so that it can go into a report in June . But I think {vocalsound} to {disfmarker} to really work on {disfmarker} on fine - tuning the report n at this point is {disfmarker} is probably bad timing , I {disfmarker} I {pause} think .
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Yeah . Well , we didn't {disfmarker} we just planned to work on it one week on this report , not {disfmarker} no more , anyway . Um .
Professor E: But you ma you may really wanna add other things later anyway
PhD B: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor E: because you {disfmarker}
PhD B: Mmm .
Professor E: There 's more to go ?
PhD B: Yeah . Well , so I don't know . There are small things that we started to {disfmarker} to do . But {disfmarker}
PhD F: Are you discovering anything , uh , that makes you scratch your head as you write this report , like why did we do that , or why didn't we do this ,
PhD B: Uh .
PhD F: or {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah . And {disfmarker} Actually , there were some tables that were also with partial results . We just noticed that , wh while gathering the result that for some conditions we didn't have everything .
PhD F: Mmm .
PhD B: But anyway . Um . Yeah , yeah . We have , yeah , extracted actually the noises from {pause} the SpeechDat - Car . And so , we can train neural network with speech and these noises . Um . It 's difficult to say what it will give , because when we look at the Aurora {disfmarker} the TI - digits experiments , um , they have these three conditions that have different noises , and apparently this system perform as well on the seen noises {disfmarker} on the unseen noises and on the seen noises . But , I think this is something we have to try anyway . So {disfmarker} adding the noises from {disfmarker} from the SpeechDat - Car . Um .
Professor E: That 's {disfmarker} that 's , uh {disfmarker} that 's permitted ?
PhD B: Uh . Well , OGI does {disfmarker} did that . Um . At some point they did that for {disfmarker} for the voice activity detector .
PhD C: Uh , for a v VAD .
PhD B: Right ? Um .
PhD F: Could you say it again ? What {disfmarker} what exactly did they do ?
PhD B: They used some parts of the , um , Italian database to train the voice activity detector , I think . It {disfmarker}
Professor E: Yeah . I guess the thing is {disfmarker} Yeah . I guess that 's a matter of interpretation . The rules as I understand it , is that in principle the Italian and the Spanish and the English {disfmarker} no , Italian and the Finnish and the English ? {disfmarker} were development data
PhD B: Yeah . And Spanish , yeah .
Professor E: on which you could adjust things . And the {disfmarker} and the German and Danish were the evaluation data .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: And then when they finally actually evaluated things they used everything .
PhD B: Yeah . That 's right . Uh {disfmarker}
Professor E: So {disfmarker} Uh , and it is true that the performance , uh , on the German was {disfmarker} I mean , even though the improvement wasn't so good , the pre the raw performance was really pretty good .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: So {disfmarker} And , uh , it {disfmarker} it doesn't appear that there 's strong evidence that even though things were somewhat tuned on those three or four languages , that {disfmarker} that going to a different language really hurt you . And the noises were not exactly the same . Right ? Because it was taken from a different , uh {disfmarker} I mean they were different drives .
PhD B: Different cars . Yeah .
Professor E: I mean , it was {disfmarker} it was actual different cars and so on .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor E: So . Um , it 's somewhat tuned . It 's tuned more than , you know , a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker}
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: You 'd really like to have something that needed no particular noise at all , maybe just some white noise or something like that a at most .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: But that 's not really what this contest is . So . Um , I guess it 's OK .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: That 's something I 'd like to understand before we actually use something from it ,
PhD F: I think it 's {disfmarker}
Professor E: because it would {disfmarker}
PhD F: it 's probably something that , mmm , the {disfmarker} you know , the , uh , experiment designers didn't really think about , because I think most people aren't doing trained systems , or , you know , uh , systems that are like ours , where you actually use the data to build models . I mean , they just {pause} doing signal - processing .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor E: Well , it 's true ,
PhD F: So .
Professor E: except that , uh , that 's what we used in Aurora one , and then they designed the things for Aurora - two knowing that we were doing that .
PhD F: Yeah . That 's true .
Professor E: Um .
PhD F: And they didn't forbid us {disfmarker} right ? {disfmarker} to build models on the data ?
Professor E: No . But , I think {disfmarker} I think that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it probably would be the case that if , say , we trained on Italian , uh , data and then , uh , we tested on Danish data and it did terribly , uh , that {disfmarker} that it would look bad . And I think someone would notice and would say " Well , look . This is not generalizing . " I would hope tha I would hope they would .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Um . But , uh , it 's true . You know , maybe there 's parameters that other people have used {disfmarker} you know , th that they have tuned in some way for other things . So it 's {disfmarker} it 's , uh {disfmarker} We should {disfmarker} we should {disfmarker} Maybe {disfmarker} that 's maybe a topic {disfmarker} Especially if you talk with him when I 'm not here , that 's a topic you should discuss with Hynek
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: to , you know , double check it 's OK .
PhD F: Do we know anything about {pause} the speakers for each of the , uh , training utterances ?
PhD B: What do you mean ? We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker}
PhD F: Do you have speaker information ?
Professor E: Social security number
PhD F: That would be good .
PhD B: Like , we have {pause} male , female ,
PhD C: Hmm .
PhD F: Bank PIN .
PhD B: at least .
PhD F: Just male f female ?
PhD B: Mmm .
Professor E: What kind of information do you mean ?
PhD F: Well , I was thinking about things like , you know , gender , uh {disfmarker} you know , gender - specific nets and , uh , vocal tract length normalization .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Things like that . I d I don't {disfmarker} I didn't know what information we have about the speakers that we could try to take advantage of .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Hmm . Uh . Right . I mean , again , i if you had the whole system you were optimizing , that would be easy to see . But if you 're {vocalsound} supposedly just using a fixed back - end and you 're just coming up with a feature vector , w w I 'm not sure {disfmarker} I mean , having the two nets {disfmarker} Suppose you detected that it was male , it was female {disfmarker} you come up with different {disfmarker}
PhD F: Well , you could put them both in as separate streams or something . Uh .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Maybe .
PhD F: I don't know . I was just wondering if there was other information we could exploit .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Hmm . Yeah , it 's an interesting thought . Maybe having something along the {disfmarker} I mean , you can't really do vocal tract normalization . But something that had some of that effect
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor E: being applied to the data in some way .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Um .
PhD B: Do you have something simple in mind for {disfmarker} I mean , vocal tract length normalization ?
PhD F: Uh no . I hadn't {disfmarker} I hadn't thought {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker} thought too much about it , really . It just {disfmarker} something that popped into my head just now . And so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean , you could maybe use the ideas {disfmarker} a similar {pause} idea to what they do in vocal tract length normalization . You know , you have some sort of a , uh , general speech model , you know , maybe just a mixture of Gaussians that you evaluate every utterance against , and then you see where each , you know , utterance {disfmarker} like , the likelihood of each utterance . You divide the {disfmarker} the range of the likelihoods up into discrete bins and then each bin 's got some knob {disfmarker} uh , setting .
Professor E: Yeah . But just listen to yourself . I mean , that uh really doesn't sound like a real - time thing with less than two hundred milliseconds , uh , latency that {disfmarker} and where you 're not adjusting the statistical engine at all .
PhD F: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Yeah . That 's true .
Professor E: You know , that just {disfmarker}
PhD F: Right .
PhD B: Hmm .
Professor E: I mean {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD F: Could be expensive .
Professor E: No . Well not just expensive . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't see how you could possibly do it . You can't look at the whole utterance and do anything . You know , you can only {disfmarker} Right ?
PhD F: Oh ,
Professor E: Each frame comes in and it 's gotta go out the other end .
PhD F: right .
Professor E: So , uh {disfmarker}
PhD F: Right . So whatever it was , it would have to be uh sort of on a per frame basis .
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Yeah . I mean , you can do , um {disfmarker} Fairly quickly you can do male female {disfmarker} f male female stuff .
PhD F: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor E: But as far as , I mean {disfmarker} Like I thought BBN did a thing with , uh , uh , vocal tract normalization a ways back . Maybe other people did too . With {disfmarker} with , uh , uh , l trying to identify third formant {disfmarker} average third formant {disfmarker} {vocalsound} using that as an indicator of {disfmarker}
PhD F: I don't know .
Professor E: So . You know , third formant {disfmarker} I if you imagine that to first order what happens with , uh , changing vocal tract is that , uh , the formants get moved out by some proportion {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: So , if you had a first formant that was one hundred hertz before , if the fifty {disfmarker} if the vocal tract is fifty percent shorter , then it would be out at seven fifty hertz , and so on . So , that 's a move of two hundred fifty hertz . Whereas the third formant which might have started off at twenty - five hundred hertz , you know , might be out to thirty - seven fifty , you know so it 's at {disfmarker} So , although , you frequently get less distinct higher formants , it 's still {disfmarker} third formant 's kind of a reasonable compromise , and {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: So , I think , eh , if I recall correctly , they did something like that . And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}
PhD F: Hmm .
Professor E: But {disfmarker} Um , that doesn't work for just having one frame or something .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: You know ? That 's more like looking at third formant over {disfmarker} over a turn or something like that ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: and {disfmarker}
PhD F: Right .
Professor E: Um . So . But on the other hand , male female is a {disfmarker} is a {disfmarker} is a much simpler categorization than figuring out a {disfmarker} a factor to , uh , squish or expand the {disfmarker} the spectrum .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: So , um . Y you could imagine that {disfmarker} I mean , just like we 're saying voiced - unvoiced is good to know {disfmarker} uh , male female is good to know also . Um .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: But , you 'd have to figure out a way to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to , uh , incorporate it on the fly . Uh , I mean , I guess , as you say , one thing you could do is simply , uh , have the {disfmarker} the male and female output vectors {disfmarker} you know , tr nets trained only on males and n trained only on females or {disfmarker} or , uh , you know . But {disfmarker} Um . I don't know if that would really help , because you already have males and females and it 's mm - hmm putting into one net . So is it {disfmarker} ?
PhD F: Is it balanced , um , in terms of gender {disfmarker} the data ?
PhD B: Mmm .
Professor E: Do you know ?
PhD B: Almost , yeah .
PhD F: Hmm .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Hmm . OK . Y you 're {disfmarker} you were saying before {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: Uh . Yeah . So , this noise , um {disfmarker} Yeah . The MSG {disfmarker} Um . Mmm . There is something {disfmarker} perhaps , I could spend some days to look at this thing , cuz it seems that when we train networks on {disfmarker} let 's say , on TIMIT with MSG features , they {disfmarker} they look as good as networks trained on PLP . But , um , when they are used on {disfmarker} on the SpeechDat - Car data , it 's not the case {disfmarker} oh , well . The MSG features are much worse , and so maybe they 're , um , less {disfmarker} more sensitive to different recording conditions , or {disfmarker} Shou
Professor E: Shouldn't be . They should be less so .
PhD B: Yeah . But {disfmarker}
Professor E: R right ?
PhD B: Mmm .
Professor E: Wh - ? But let me ask you this . What {disfmarker} what 's the , um {disfmarker} ? Do you kno recall if the insertions were {disfmarker} were higher with MSG ?
PhD B: I don't know . I cannot tell . But {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the error rate is higher . So , I don
Professor E: Yeah . But you should always look at insertions , deletions , and substitutions .
PhD B: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor E: So {disfmarker}
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: so , uh {disfmarker} MSG is very , very dif Eh , PLP is very much like mel cepstrum . MSG is very different from both of them .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: So , if it 's very different , then this is the sort of thing {disfmarker} I mean I 'm really glad Andreas brought this point up . I {pause} sort of had forgotten to discuss it . Um . You always have to look at how this {disfmarker} uh , these adjustments , uh , affect things . And even though we 're not allowed to do that , again we maybe could reflect that back to our use of the features .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: So if it {disfmarker} if in fact , uh {disfmarker} The problem might be that the range of the MSG features is quite different than the range of the PLP or mel cepstrum .
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor E: And you might wanna change that .
PhD B: But {disfmarker} Yeah . But , it 's d it 's after {disfmarker} Well , it 's tandem features , so {disfmarker} Mmm .
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah . We {disfmarker} we have estimation of post posteriors with PLP and with MSG as input ,
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD B: so I don Well . I don't know .
Professor E: That means they 're between zero and one .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: But i it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it doesn't necessarily {disfmarker} You know , they could be , um {disfmarker} Do - doesn't tell you what the variance of the things is .
PhD B: Mmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Right ? Cuz if you 're taking the log of these things , it could be , uh {disfmarker} Knowing what the sum of the probabilities are , doesn't tell you what the sum of the logs are .
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor E: So .
PhD B: Yeah . So we should look at the likelihood , or {disfmarker} or what ? Or {disfmarker} well , at the log , perhaps , and {disfmarker}
Professor E: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Or what {disfmarker} you know , what you 're uh {disfmarker} the thing you 're actually looking at .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: So your {disfmarker} your {disfmarker} the values that are {disfmarker} are actually being fed into HTK .
PhD B: Mm - hmm . But {disfmarker}
Professor E: What do they look like ?
PhD F: No And so th the , uh {disfmarker} for the tandem system , the values that come out of the net don't go through the sigmoid . Right ? They 're sort of the pre - nonlinearity values ?
PhD B: Yes .
Professor E: Right . So they 're {pause} kinda like log probabilities is what I was saying .
PhD F: And those {disfmarker} OK . And tho that 's what goes {pause} into {pause} HTK ?
Professor E: Uh , almost . But then you actually do a KLT on them .
PhD F: OK .
Professor E: Um . They aren't normalized after that , are they ?
PhD B: Mmm . No , they are not {disfmarker} no .
Professor E: No . OK . So , um . Right . So the question is {disfmarker} Yeah . Whatever they are at that point , um , are they something for which taking a square root or cube root or fourth root or something like that is {disfmarker} is gonna be a good or a bad thing ? So .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Uh , and that 's something that nothing {disfmarker} nothing else after that is gonna {disfmarker} Uh , things are gonna scale it {disfmarker} Uh , you know , subtract things from it , scale it from it , but nothing will have that same effect . Um . So . Um . Anyway , eh {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah . Cuz if {disfmarker} if the log probs that are coming out of the MSG are really big , the standard {pause} insertion penalty is gonna have very little effect
Professor E: Well , the {disfmarker} Right .
PhD F: compared to , you know , a smaller set of log probs .
Professor E: Yeah . No . Again you don't really {pause} look at that . It 's something {disfmarker} that , and then it 's going through this transformation that 's probably pretty close to {disfmarker} It 's , eh , whatever the KLT is doing . But it 's probably pretty close to what a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a discrete cosine transformation is doing .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor E: But still it 's {disfmarker} it 's not gonna probably radically change the scale of things . I would think . And , uh {disfmarker} Yeah . It may be entirely off and {disfmarker} and it may be {disfmarker} at the very least it may be quite different for MSG than it is for mel cepstrum or PLP . So that would be {disfmarker} So the first thing I 'd look at without adjusting anything would just be to go back to the experiment and look at the , uh , substitutions , insertions , and deletions . And if the {disfmarker} if the , uh {disfmarker} i if there 's a fairly large effect of the difference , say , uh , uh , the r ratio between insertions and deletions for the two cases then that would be , uh , an indicator that it might {disfmarker} might be in that direction .
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah . But ,
Professor E: Anything else ?
PhD B: my {disfmarker} my point was more that it {disfmarker} it works sometimes and {disfmarker} but sometimes it doesn't work .
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD B: So .
Professor E: Well .
PhD B: And it works on TI - digits and on SpeechDat - Car it doesn't work , and {disfmarker}
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Yeah . Well .
Professor E: But , you know , some problems are harder than others ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor E: and {disfmarker} And , uh , sometimes , you know , there 's enough evidence for something to work and then it 's harder , it breaks . You know ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: so it 's {disfmarker} But it {disfmarker} but , um , i it {disfmarker} it could be that when you say it works maybe we could be doing much better , even in TI - digits . Right ?
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah , sure .
Professor E: So .
PhD B: Uh .
Professor E: Hmm ? Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah . Well , there is also the spectral subtraction , which , um {disfmarker} I think maybe we should , uh , try to integrate it in {disfmarker} in our system .
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD B: Mmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Right .
PhD B: But ,
Professor E: O
PhD B: I think that would involve to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to mmm {vocalsound} use a big {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} al already a big bunch of the system of Ericsson . Because he has spectral subtraction , then it 's followed by , {vocalsound} um , other kind of processing that 's {disfmarker} are dependent on the {disfmarker} uh , if it 's speech or noi or silence .
Professor E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And there is this kind of spectral flattening after {disfmarker} if it 's silence , and {disfmarker} and s I {disfmarker} I think it 's important , um , {vocalsound} to reduce this musical noise and this {disfmarker} this increase of variance during silence portions . So . Well . This was in this would involve to take almost everything from {disfmarker} from the {disfmarker} this proposal and {disfmarker} and then just add some kind of on - line normalization in {disfmarker} in the neural network . Mmm .
Professor E: OK . Well , this 'll be , I think , something for discussion with Hynek next week .
PhD B: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Yeah . OK . Right . So . How are , uh , uh {disfmarker} how are things going with what you 're doing ?
Grad D: Oh . Well , um , I took a lot of time just getting my taxes out of the way {disfmarker} multi - national taxes . So , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm starting to write code now for my work but I don't have any results yet . Um , i it would be good for me to talk to Hynek , I think , when he 's here .
Professor E: Yeah .
Grad D: Do you know what his schedule will be like ?
Professor E: Uh , he 'll be around for three days .
Grad D: OK . So , y
Professor E: Uh , we 'll have a lot of time .
Grad D: OK .
Professor E: So , uh {disfmarker} Um . I 'll , uh {disfmarker} You know , he 's {disfmarker} he 'll {disfmarker} he 'll be talking with everybody in this room So .
PhD F: But you said you won't {disfmarker} you won't be here next Thursday ?
Professor E: Not Thursday and Friday . Yeah . Cuz I will be at faculty retreat .
PhD F: Hmm .
Professor E: So . I 'll try to {vocalsound} connect with him and people as {disfmarker} as I can on {disfmarker} on Wednesday . But {disfmarker} Um . Oh , how 'd taxes go ? Taxes go OK ?
Grad D: Mmm . Yeah .
Professor E: Yeah . Oh , good . Yeah . Yeah . That 's just {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's one of the big advantages of not making much money is {vocalsound} the taxes are easier . Yeah .
PhD F: Unless you 're getting money in two countries .
Professor E: I think you are . Aren't you ?
PhD F: They both want their cut .
PhD B: Hmm .
Grad D: Hmm . Yeah .
PhD F: Right ?
Professor E: Yeah . Yeah . Huh . Canada w Canada wants a cut ?
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Have to do {disfmarker} So you {disfmarker} you have to do two returns ?
Grad D: Mmm . W uh , for two thousand I did . Yeah .
Professor E: Oh , oh . Yeah . For tw That 's right , ju
PhD F: But not for this next year ?
Professor E: Two thousand . Yeah . Probably not this next year , I guess .
Grad D: Ye
Professor E: Yeah .
Grad D: Um .
Professor E: Yeah .
Grad D: Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll still have a bit of Canadian income but it 'll be less complicated because I will not be a {disfmarker} considered a resident of Canada anymore , so I won't have to declare my American income on my Canadian return .
Professor E: OK . Alright . Uh . Barry , do you wanna {pause} say something about your stuff here ?
Grad A: Oh , um . Right . I {pause} just , um , continuing looking at , uh , ph uh , phonetic events , and , uh , this Tuesday gonna be , uh , meeting with John Ohala with Chuck to talk some more about these , uh , ph um , phonetic events . Um , came up with , uh , a plan of attack , uh , gonna execute , and um {disfmarker} Yeah . It 's {disfmarker} that 's pretty much it .
Professor E: Oh , well . No Um , why don't you say something about what it is ?
Grad A: Oh , you {disfmarker} oh , you want {disfmarker} you want details . Hmm . OK .
Professor E: Well , we 're all gathered here together . I thought we 'd , you know {disfmarker}
Grad A: I was hoping I could wave my hands . Um . So , um . So , once wa I {disfmarker} I was thinking getting {disfmarker} getting us a set of acoustic events to {disfmarker} um , to be able to distinguish between , uh , phones and words and stuff . And {vocalsound} um , once we {disfmarker} we would figure out a set of these events that can be , you know , um , hand - labeled or {disfmarker} or derived , uh , from h the hand - labeled phone targets . Um , we could take these events and , um , {vocalsound} do some cheating experiments , um , where we feed , um , these events into {pause} an SRI system , um , eh , and evaluate its performance on a Switchboard task . Uh , yeah .
Grad D: Hey , Barry ? Can you give an example of an event ?
Grad A: Yeah . Sure . Um , I {disfmarker} I can give you an example of {pause} twenty - odd events . Um {disfmarker} So , he In this paper , um , it 's talking about phoneme recognition using acoustic events . So , things like frication or , uh , nasality .
Professor E: Whose paper is it ?
Grad A: Um , this is a paper by Hubener and Cardson {pause} Benson {disfmarker} Bernds - Berndsen .
Professor E: Yeah . Huh . From , uh , University of Hamburg and Bielefeld .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: OK .
Grad A: Um .
PhD F: Yeah . I think the {disfmarker} just to expand a little bit on the idea of acoustic event .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: There 's , um {disfmarker} in my mind , anyways , there 's a difference between , um , acoustic features and acoustic events . And I think of acoustic features as being , um , things that linguists talk about , like , um {disfmarker}
Professor E: So , stuff that 's not based on data .
PhD F: Stuff that 's not based on data , necessarily .
Professor E: Yeah . Oh , OK . Yeah . Yeah , OK .
PhD F: Right . That 's not based on , you know , acoustic data . So they talk about features for phones , like , uh , its height ,
Grad A: Yeah .
PhD F: its tenseness , laxness , things like that ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: which may or may not be all that easy to measure in the acoustic signal . Versus an acoustic event , which is just {nonvocalsound} some {nonvocalsound} something in the acoustic signal {nonvocalsound} that is fairly easy to measure . Um . So it 's , um {disfmarker} it 's a little different , in {disfmarker} at least in my mind .
Professor E: I mean , when we did the SPAM work {disfmarker} I mean , there we had {disfmarker} we had this notion of an , uh , auditory {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} auditory event .
Grad A: Good . That 's great .
Professor E: And , uh , um , called them " avents " , uh , uh , uh , with an A at the front .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Uh . And the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the idea was something that occurred that is important to a bunch of neurons somewhere . So .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Um . A sudden change or a relatively rapid change in some spectral characteristic will {disfmarker} will do sort of this . I mean , there 's certainly a bunch of {disfmarker} a bunch of places where you know that neurons are gonna fire because something novel has happened . That was {disfmarker} that was the main thing that we were focusing on there . But there 's certainly other things beyond what we talked about there that aren't just sort of rapid changes , but {disfmarker}
PhD F: It 's kinda like the difference between top - down and bottom - up .
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD F: I think of the acoustic {disfmarker} you know , phonetic features as being top - down . You know , you look at the phone and you say this phone is supposed to be {disfmarker} you know , have this feature , this feature , and this feature . Whether tha those features show up in the acoustic signal is sort of irrelevant . Whereas , an acoustic event goes the other way . Here 's the signal . Here 's some event .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: What {disfmarker} ? And then that {disfmarker} you know , that may map to this phone sometimes , and sometimes it may not . It just depen maybe depends on the context , things like that .
Professor E: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: And so it 's sort of a different way of looking .
Professor E: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Yeah . So . Yeah .
Grad D: OK .
Grad A: Mm - hmm . Um {disfmarker} Using these {disfmarker} these events , um , you know , we can {disfmarker} we can perform these {disfmarker} these , uh , cheating experiments . See how {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} how good they are , um , in , um {disfmarker} in terms of phoneme recognition or word recognition . And , um {disfmarker} and then from that point on , I would , uh , s design robust event detectors , um , in a similar , um , wa spirit that Saul has done w uh , with his graphical models , and this {disfmarker} this probabilistic AND - OR model that he uses . Um , eh , try to extend it to , um {disfmarker} to account for other {disfmarker} other phenomena like , um , CMR co - modulation release . And , um {disfmarker} and maybe also investigate ways to {disfmarker} to modify the structure of these models , um , in a data - driven way , uh , similar to the way that , uh , Jeff {disfmarker} Jeff , uh , Bilmes did his work . Um , and while I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm doing these , um , event detectors , you know , I can ma mea measure my progress by comparing , um , the error rates in clean and noisy conditions to something like , uh , neural nets . Um , and {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so , once we have these {disfmarker} these , uh , event detectors , um , we could put them together and {disfmarker} and feed the outputs of the event detectors into {disfmarker} into the SRI , um , HMM {disfmarker} HMM system , and , um {disfmarker} and test it on {disfmarker} on Switchboard or , um , maybe even Aurora stuff . And , that 's pretty much the {disfmarker} the big picture of {disfmarker} of um , the plan .
Professor E: By the way , um , there 's , uh , a couple people who are gonna be here {disfmarker} I forget if I already told you this , but , a couple people who are gonna be here for six months .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Uh {disfmarker} uh , there 's a Professor Kollmeier , uh , from Germany who 's , uh , uh , quite big in the , uh , hearing - aid signal - processing area and , um , Michael Kleinschmidt , who 's worked with him , who also looks at {vocalsound} auditory properties inspired by various , uh , brain function things .
Grad A: Hmm .
Professor E: So , um , um , I think they 'll be interesting to talk to , in this sort of issue as these detectors are {disfmarker} are , uh , developing .
Grad A: Hmm . OK .
Professor E: So , he looks at interesting {disfmarker} interesting things in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} different ways of looking at spectra in order to {disfmarker} to get various speech properties out . So .
Grad A: OK .
Professor E: OK . Well , short meeting , but that 's OK . And , uh , we might as well do our digits . And like I say , I {disfmarker} I encourage you to go ahead and meet , uh , next week with , uh , uh , Hynek . Alright , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll start . It 's , uh , one thirty - five . seventeen OK
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Project Manager: So we come again for the the second meeting .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Uh for the aim of this meeting now is to to make presentation about uh the work for each one .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And {gap} take the the decision about the the design and the functionality of the the remote control .
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And we have {disfmarker} think I got a new project requirement .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: So I think uh teletext becomes outdated . So the popularity of the {disfmarker} since the popularity of the internet ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: and I think we don't need lighting adaptive , so the remote control should be only used for the the television . And of course we should have our image {gap} in the in the design . So , let's start with the the industrial designer .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , alright .
Project Manager: Or y you can use the whiteboard if you want .
Industrial Designer: So uh {disfmarker} Well I have a PowerPoint pr presentation stored in my in my personal folder
Project Manager: Here .
Industrial Designer: so I I I think you can reach it from here .
Marketing: Just go to explorer .
Project Manager: Oh okay .
Marketing: Or open . Participant two .
Industrial Designer: Participant two .
Project Manager: This one .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Open uh .
Industrial Designer: Uh open . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do you want to open {disfmarker}
User Interface: Because it's open you mean . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right , so um I will talk about the the w working design and {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} F_ five .
Marketing: Slide show , view slide show , {gap} .
Project Manager: Ah .
Industrial Designer: And um well I I will present my my first idea on how to build the {disfmarker} our new remote control for television .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So uh can you go one page down , please . So I think the first things to do is to define the hardware components neededs to achieve uh what we want to do .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So uh mm I'm thin uh {vocalsound} I think uh I I'll do a survey about what is uh what is available on the market and what what is the the cheapest possible {vocalsound} things we hav we can use . Then uh I will try with the technical team to to build a prototype and to see uh with uh h how this little box {vocalsound} would uh look look like .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And how an and we can uh start troubleshooting first uh com communication problems or things like that .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And when we are ready with this first prototype I I think we can add some software functionalities on a programmable chip like browsing by content or um things like that . Okay so can you go down uh {disfmarker} So , wha what I think {vocalsound} for now {vocalsound} is {vocalsound} we don't want to have a remote control w which is wired
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so uh I think we u we can use a battery for the {gap} . Then two programmable chips for both software functionalities and communication . And the communication with the T_V_ set is uh made through uh infrared communication So uh this is the {vocalsound} the schema of the {vocalsound} o of the future uh remote controls
User Interface: Did you draw it ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wow . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so uh you can you can see the components , uh battery and uh the two chips goes to the infrared uh connection to the T_V_ set .
User Interface: This {gap} .
Project Manager: This {disfmarker}
User Interface: What is the other chip for ? The one on top .
Industrial Designer: The one on top is for the um {disfmarker} well the functionali the functionalities
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: One is a communication .
Industrial Designer: and the the th red um {disfmarker} sorry the green one is is to {disfmarker} well , putting things together , um f transform the data into uh qu into the format to to {gap} uh to communicate with the T_V_ set .
User Interface: For men . To the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: And , that's it . I think we should use a F_P_G_A_ for {vocalsound} for the functionalities which is easy to to t
User Interface: Mm . What is F_P_G_A_ ?
Industrial Designer: It's field programmable uh something array .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Gateway arrays .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: It's a field programmable gateway arrays .
User Interface: So why's it {disfmarker} how is it different from the Bluetooth ?
Industrial Designer: Well , uh a F_P_G_A_ is just a chip you can uh you can {gap} pr programme it uh wi with wh whatever you want .
User Interface: Yeah . Programme it .
Marketing: Yeah {gap} .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And uh well the Bluetooth chip is just responsible to uh make the communication uh between uh the two devices .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} So this are the {disfmarker} they have to work together ? Or ? Do they have to work together or two separate choice {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No . Well , th the F_P_G_A_ will produce the the data to send .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Or it's something like {disfmarker} isn't hardware the first one ? And the second one is for the software .
User Interface: Is the is the software par alri okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah to run th to make it run .
User Interface: Okay , okay .
Marketing: That's it .
User Interface: So you can control {gap} if you want , right ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} .
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: Alright and that's it for the working design .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So if you have any questions ?
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Okay , and how about the battery power ? Uh you mean that battery would be somewhere there and the remote contro the power to the battery comes through infrared ?
Industrial Designer: Uh no no no no , I think uh we have uh to to uh have uh embedded uh b batteries in in the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} .
Marketing: Into the {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yeah into the t .
Marketing: more compact and uh {disfmarker} okay , {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And uh I I don't think it will need um {vocalsound} very uh much power to make it run , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm . Mm .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah . Okay .
User Interface: Mm . You can put it on the charger when uh you when you don't need to use it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . It's a good idea .
Marketing: Yeah , that's right .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Having a charger rather than putting the battery cells always .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: People don't like it to have to buy the batteries when they run out .
User Interface: Yeah . Mm . Uh {disfmarker} mm .
Marketing: We just make a small charger
User Interface: Y yeah , yeah .
Marketing: and put it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You can i yeah .
User Interface: Because you are using because you are using Bluetooth , if some people have P_D_A_ they can use their P_D_A_ to control the T_V_ if they want to , right ?
Industrial Designer: That's a good idea .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ma
Industrial Designer: Also , but but {vocalsound} I I I think uh the the goal is to sell our remote {vocalsound} control .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I dunno . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Bu {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah we can change the b {gap} .
Marketing: Our remote ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: we do not want to make it P_D_A_ . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} S {vocalsound} okay , so charger for {gap} is the {gap} .
Project Manager: Um .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So is mine .
Project Manager: It's mine . Participant one , no ?
User Interface: Oh . Yeah , this your {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm . Oh we have {gap} so let's move to to user interface design {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} So you can open uh {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Participant {disfmarker}
User Interface: three . Yeah . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} So I'm working on the technical functions design . {gap} can you show the next slide . So the the purpose is to to find uh the important questions to ask is what effect should the apparatus have . So {vocalsound} so I found on a webs on the internet
Project Manager: {vocalsound} During the weekend .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah . {vocalsound} I spent a lot of time searching {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's good . {vocalsound}
User Interface: and uh and I found that uh the function of remote control is to send messages to television set .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} For example switch on , switch off , switch the next channel and so on and so on .
Marketing: G
User Interface: So I found two very good prototypes for {vocalsound} for this interface from our competitors
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so can you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This are usual functionality {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah , yeah . Ours is a bit uh different . So these are two example . One is from {vocalsound} {gap} the other one is from , yeah , uh engineering centr yeah .
Project Manager: Tasks .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: This is the most competing prototypes I've found {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But then uh loo but then I found if you look at {disfmarker} you see on the left one there are too many buttons {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And they are small {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah . O on the right I tried to play with {vocalsound} the problem is that uh if I have hundred channels I have uh I have to choo press the other button to choose the hundred channels and I have to compose the number
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: so it's very lousy .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So you {vocalsound} so you move to the next the next one .
Industrial Designer: Of course .
User Interface: Yeah , so I talk about the problem . And then I I look at the user manual they are a hundred pages thick , so we don't want that .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So I propose the easy to use uh prototype . You can navigate on T_V_ screen and we can {gap} the user's preference and we need to have the T_V_ connected to internet so we end {disfmarker} in order to access the T_V_ programmes by X_M_L_ and we need some {disfmarker} to do some preprocessing . From the technical aspect , the processing should be done on the T_V_ set than on the {vocalsound} on the remote controller , right ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} And then we {disfmarker} the speech recognition as uh Harry says we may just put in {disfmarker} we may K_I_V_ .
Project Manager: What do you mean by the pa pa processing will be done on the T_V_
User Interface: Yeah , all the processing is done {disfmarker} the T_V_ is a compu has some processing power the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: than the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So we have to t
Project Manager: So we should have specific T_V_ ? Or ? We can use this .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We have to sell a T_V_ with the remote control too . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , we don't {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah because {disfmarker} {vocalsound} are you just wondering what controller {disfmarker} okay .
Project Manager: Yeah , I think so . J j just the remote control .
Marketing: Yeah , not the T_V_s .
Industrial Designer: I think there there is there is al there there is a a technology like show view who is already available on most of the T_V_ set on recorders or thing like that
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and we can try t to get this information on to the remote control to to do the processing on the remote control because {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: Yeah , that's right .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: So i the processing on on the remote controller {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah ,
User Interface: so it can u be used in any T_V_ , any conventional T_V_ sets ?
Project Manager: we {gap} . Yeah .
User Interface: Mm . Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Speech recognition .
User Interface: N yeah , that's all . The next one ? So I come up with a simple design , just keep the v navigation buttons . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes , that's a good idea , I think .
Project Manager: Keep the navigation
Industrial Designer: We d we don't we we don't need really much buttons to {disfmarker} i if we have a screen to navigate on on the T_V_ so uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well , f four five buttons , it's sufficient .
User Interface: Yeah . Mm .
Industrial Designer: It's easy to build ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it does not consume much power . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , that's right .
Project Manager: {gap} .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay , that's all . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh , but you have a catch there , um assume that um if you want to go to {disfmarker} if you are watching channel two and if you want to go to channel ninety nine , then {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well , then y you you go to the main menu and uh you have uh go to channel
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: and then uh you {gap} can {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm . No , because you choose by channel , so {disfmarker} you choose by T_V_ program
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Uh-huh huh huh huh .
Industrial Designer: Maybe you {disfmarker}
User Interface: so you don't have hundred channels to choose from . If you go by channel , you don't have to do that .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Marketing: Mm-hmm hmm hmm .
Industrial Designer: {gap} but uh I I think i i {gap} if you if you want to to make uh {disfmarker} well a a big jump {vocalsound} {gap} but uh well you you have to to have a a a device when you could you could {disfmarker}
Marketing: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So you are {disfmarker}
User Interface: Ah . Ah , a big jump .
Marketing: Yeah then yeah that's right .
User Interface: A mouse or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well , not a mouse but uh something that that says more clearly that uh right , left , up , down ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: well , the to have the ability to to to write something to the navigator , maybe directly , or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm hmm hmm . Okay .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: So ,
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: we can think of buttons like in the telephone to send messages or things like that .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: How the {gap} this remote ?
Industrial Designer: But we'll see . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh it's gonna be small .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , of course {vocalsound} small .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah . So it'll beep if you wanna find it
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} too small that it goes under the sofa and we can't find it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: you just uh shout {disfmarker} y h just {disfmarker} it just has to re respond to you when you look for the device .
Marketing: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: that's {gap} .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I dunno how bu {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} just {gap} give it a name and we call him .
User Interface: {vocalsound} And {gap} responds to you , and {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , that's right . Yeah , that's right .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so uh next presentation {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Participant four . So Harry .
Marketing: Okay , after having the inputs from {vocalsound} industrial design and user interface , I think most of the points which I want to are already covered here .
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And to find the most interesting features what the users would be interested , then what we have done is we have put a feedback forms in all the magazines , and the users send the feedbacks , and based on that {disfmarker} These are the findings which we got and {disfmarker} yeah adding of a speech interface is always good for a T_V_ remote but the technology {disfmarker} We already know that {disfmarker} as discussed earlier {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well I I think it will be a , yes , a bit complicated to um make a speech recognisers runs on the small uh ts
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: An {vocalsound} it does {gap} how feasible it is .
User Interface: I- {vocalsound} mm . But I think if you {gap} to recognise numbers it's a well-studied problem . I if you just recognise uh numbers is a limited {disfmarker} you have limited vocabulary {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh we can put an limited vocabulary as in the mobile phones .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: We just have the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: And this can allow to choose the the program , for instance without uh adding uh buttons
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so it's a good idea .
Marketing: {gap} it's not going to take much space also . It's going to be very slim .
User Interface: Mm . Mm .
Marketing: And next one was the size of the remote control . It has to be of course a very slim and small one . And of course most of the people are interested in if it's less expensive ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: so this is an important criteria here is {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But do you think what they sug suggested s possibility {gap} .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm .
Marketing: I mean we have to look for a trade-off .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: The features and the cost .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I no {disfmarker} I I think that uh i if we go for quality people may tolerate for high quality and of course comes with uh reasonable cost .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Maybe not less , but they may be willing to pay little bit more for comfort ,
Marketing: Little bit more if it's with extra features .
Project Manager: It {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: yeah , extra features .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , s s speech is a important extra feature I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah . That's right .
Project Manager: But is it useful or not u I don't know .
Industrial Designer: Well , uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: There is {gap} in the {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean , for a lazy guys they could say nine and the nine channel comes .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Or they say movie name {disfmarker} or I don't go for movie names but only for the numbers on the channel , or volume up , volume down , brightness , contrast .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: So , I think this should be a good idea , to put this features . And the fourth one was the teletext in various languages .
Industrial Designer: we we just have to find a mean how to to add a m a a a microphone or uh well {disfmarker} yes a microphone into the the remote control , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm , I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think i {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it will be alright . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} If it's necessary can {disfmarker} you can do that .
User Interface: What is the teletext ? Mm .
Project Manager: We can integrate small microphone in the remote
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: so it's not really a problem .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: What about lighting adaptive options ?
Marketing: Yeah as discussed in the earlier meeting , but {vocalsound} I think uh not much people are really interested in this point if it's not really required .
Project Manager: According to the re to the new requirements I think we don't need that . Yeah .
User Interface: It is interesting but we are only concerned with the remote controller .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: So you need s special T_V_ sets to do that ? Or it's it's done via this remote controller ? It's very complex .
Marketing: I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I think it's a bit complex too {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean {disfmarker} yeah , it's for the um industrial design and users interface designers to decide if it's going to be working or not .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: For our next product , our new T_V_ set with uh automatical uh sound adjustment {vocalsound} light {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , then we can conclude that . Yeah . Yeah , but it's quite possible but maybe not in this project .
Project Manager: So we have {disfmarker} I think we have s still we have couple of minutes . Mm-mm . {vocalsound} So any things to to discuss ? Or any suggestions ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think as I discussed th that four points would be good for um marketing .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: The speech interface and uh less uh reasonable uh cost .
Project Manager: Expensive . Price .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: And the lighting adaptation
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: and the teletext . And regarding the teletext uh these are the subtitl these are the text information which you got on the televisions .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: If you are watching an foreign movie , you get {gap} subtitles sometimes .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: And uh if you are a French guy watching an English movie you would like to have it in French .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Marketing: And if I am a German then I would like to have the {disfmarker} my options in German .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So , the remote {disfmarker} it should have some {disfmarker} it should give me some flexibility of choosing the ch languages .
Industrial Designer: Function .
Marketing: That should be a good uh point .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but well what about the the new project's requirement ? I I I think we should give up with teletext , no ?
Project Manager: I think we we can we {disfmarker} {gap} is the {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yes . Well , so maybe we we can j we can already think uh {vocalsound} about a way to to access the internet via the television .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Because if {disfmarker}
User Interface: Using the T_V_ to access the internet ? Or what ? I didn't quite understand {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but uh we can think that in a few years there will be T_V_ set that can access the internet .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , okay .
Industrial Designer: So it's a good idea if i i if we i if if we uh think about how to to to build up our remote uh control w with this functionality in a {disfmarker} w which will c which will come in a few years .
Marketing: We already have some {gap} .
Industrial Designer: So if we already have it in our remote control {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So you have to anticipate the the future ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} The future demand , market demand . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , to desi
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , that's right .
Industrial Designer: well , not not to implement it , but to {disfmarker} well , to find a way to to add to add this functionality in a {disfmarker} yeah , in an in an easy manner , if is possible . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} .
User Interface: The functionality in the future .
Project Manager: In future .
User Interface: Alright . Yeah . Because all the T_V_ sets will be digital , right . All the programmes , everything will be in digital than analog . Th the system will change and we have to anticipate for those change .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Okay . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . So let's go for the the lunch break , and we will meet after .
Industrial Designer: Okay , thank you .
User Interface: Okay . Thank you .
Marketing: Okay , thank you .
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Project Manager: Is everyone ready to start ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes .
Project Manager: Okay . Great . Well , welcome to the third meeting of conceptual design . I'll just get the PowerPoint presentation up and running . Okay . Um , on the agenda for this , um , for this particular meeting , we'll have your three presentations on what you've done since our last meeting , after we came up with um some general ideas of our design . And , um , then we have to make some key decisions on , on our remote control concept , and how we're gonna make it , what uh materials we're gonna use , and that sort of thing .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The meeting will be forty minutes long .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: And um we will once again have Poppy as our first presenter .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: Alright , and I will switch up PowerPoint .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Should be just loading . {vocalsound} Okay . Oh , although I can't see it on my screen . That says go here . Okay . I've been doing some research into the different components that we could use , um what's available to us f to actually make the remote control . Um , first of all we have to look at how the remote control is actually made , and what is it happens inside the casing , which is more your field . Um , thes main internal feature is a circuit board , which contains all the elec electronics and also the contacts with the power source .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Which is not necessarily a battery , as we're about to see . Um , there are several components of , um , the circuit board that we need to consider , where we'll be getting them from , what they'll be made of . Um , including the integrated circuit , which is also known as the chip . Which is where all the main information is uh contained . Um , diodes , transistors , resonators , resistors , and capacit capacitors all need to be considered as well . Um , and all their positioning in the circuit .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Are they all included , like mandatorily , or r are these different options ?
Industrial Designer: Uh , these , they're all different options , they're all separate , apart from the chip , which we will probable decide whether we buy a simple , a regular , advanced .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We can go into that later . Um , all the other things are individual components that we'd have to get in separately , and work out the most , like , effective um circuit , including all the wires and everything like that . And the L_E_D_ of course , that's a light emitting diode . So , we could , so we've got flex flexibility with colours and things , with that as well .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Okay , there are lots of different possibilities for the energy source . We could use a basic battery , but that brings with it , like they need to be recharged and the bulk , the size of it as well . And they're not so great to dispose of , environmentally . {vocalsound} There's a hand-powered dynamo which is a sort of thing that was used for torches fifty years ago . A bit out of date . Kinetic energy is something that's been recently developed .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} What is a hand-powered dynamo ?
Industrial Designer: Um , where you manually charge up the power .
Project Manager: Just every , every once in a while ?
Industrial Designer: Like you wind up something .
Project Manager: Just every once in a while or constantly ?
Industrial Designer: Sorry ? Yeah . Every once in a while I think
Project Manager: Alright . It'd be kind of strange to always be cranking it I think .
Industrial Designer: . But it's {disfmarker} Yeah . It would be like going a step back in time .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I don't think it would really be with kind of cutting edge technology .
Project Manager: No . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Whereas kinetic energy is a new idea that's being used by some watches and other devices , where you just shake the device and it gives it power . I mean , the kinetic energy is transformed into power to make the circuit work . Um , or there's solar power , which we've been considering inside a building , which is where it's gonna be used , might not be quite so useful .
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: But , good to look into , renewable energy , always the way . Um , lots of considerations for the case , like what sort of shape it would be , curved or flat . That's got a lot to do with the ergonomics . Like how it's comfortable and s sits in the hand . We don't want something that's huge and you can't pick up . Or too small . Or too slidy . I know I've had a remote control before which you couldn't tell which was the front and the back ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: 'cause it had so many buttons on , and the shape was so symmetrical that I'd be pressing like a volume button instead of the on button .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Because you can't really see which way round it is .
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: Um , we also can choose what materials {disfmarker} um , the {disfmarker} we could use metal , we could use rubber which might be more um ideal for the anti-R_S_I_ . It's like the same sort of rubber that's used in stress balls and things like that , so it's very like soft , not so stressful on your hands .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Wood .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um , again , stepping back in time again there .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't think that's quite up to date with what we're looking for here .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um , titanium is not gonna be possible , even though it just it beyond our budget really . But , would've been maybe for future projects . Um right our choice for buttons as well . We've developed some {disfmarker} we've got some good advances in technology , with our research team have found some uh new multiple um option scroll buttons . I think that was brought up for , um , {disfmarker} they're basically quite a flexible design , modern , you don't have to use individual buttons . You can just slide up and down . I'm sure we're all quite familiar with those on mobiles or computer laptop pads .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um one thing with the scroll buttons though . It , it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we would have to have an L_C_D_ um
Industrial Designer: Yeah . That's true .
Project Manager: display , and the glow in the dark thing might be difficult .
Industrial Designer: And that would lead to an advanced {disfmarker} yeah . If we have {disfmarker} yeah . We're going on to that later with the advanc with the L_C_D_ that means we'd need a really advanced chip .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And it's unlikely that that's gonna be in our budget .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um , also we've got the integrated pushbutton , which is what we're most familiar with . It's the most straightforward . But you can in like incorporate that with a scroll button as well . {gap} . Got decisions to make there . And this is what I was just saying before . Linked in the different {disfmarker} depends on what type of buttons we have and the inputs . Um simple would go with the pushbutton . Um , regular you could link with the scroll button . And the advanced we'd have to go with a L_C_D_ s display .
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} My personal preferences ? I think we could go for the kinetic energy source . I don't , I think that's quite um an advanced kind of technology . It's not been seen before , so it could be quite a , a novelty factor , attractive as well . And also energy saving 'cause you're producing the energy , you don't need an external sort of battery supply or solar panels . You just give it a shake .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sounds brilliant to me .
Project Manager: Uh .
Industrial Designer: Rubber casing I thing would probably the best , if we're going for the anti-R_S_I_ and like more choice with um aesthetics . Like it could be pretty much any colour we want . Um , and gives you , yeah , more flexibility there . And probably the regular chip as opposed to the simple ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: then we could possibly have the scroll and the push , but no L_C_D_ , 'cause we probably can't afford that one .
Project Manager: Yeah . Um , one concern with the rubber casing is that it would be rubber encapsulating all of these {vocalsound} chips and diodes and delicate technology as
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: like as the exterior . This is the one thing that's protecting its innards .
Industrial Designer: I think that would , uh there would be an in sort of more internal casing . And the rubber would just be the , what's in contact with the human .
Project Manager: Yeah . Another thing is it might be more difficult {disfmarker} if it's a rubber exterior {gap} talking about putting on interchangeable plates .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Um , is it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: I don't see how a like a rubber plate going on top it would stay there . Like if it was sort of like a clip-on plastic plate . It would work that way .
Industrial Designer: Maybe if the , um , if it was just kind of a , more of a rubber coating which was on to a case .
User Interface: W
Industrial Designer: So , it was kind of , the whole thing would be removable .
User Interface: Like plastic with rubber , kind of on top
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Like {disfmarker} I can't think of what .
User Interface: Well , there's , there is a certain phone that has like a rubber casing ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Or like an {disfmarker}
User Interface: b like a Nokia it is .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: you can get sort of outer casing for iPods and something , that's just {disfmarker} it's protective as well .
User Interface: It's {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Like the skin ?
Industrial Designer: It , it stops it , I mean ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: it would reduce the impact if it was dropped or something , as well , 'cause it wouldn't damage itself so easily .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright . So maybe the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think i maybe a mixture of both there , maybe .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So the actual remote would be hard plastic and the casings rubber .
Industrial Designer: And then {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: And the buttons obviously are rubber .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That sounds good . I , um , is it possible to put designs onto this type of rubber ?
Industrial Designer: As far as I know . It should be .
Project Manager: Okay ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we'll just say yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes , just why not .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright . I like the kinetic energy source idea .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um , I don't know when people will , um , be moving a remote around a lot .
Industrial Designer: I thought that was {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But I think that it's worth it , kinetety , kinetic um
User Interface: Yeah , tha
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: energy source . It could make an we could have any kind of style .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: It wouldn't be as heavy or bulky , and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Just for environmental reasons .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I guess it's a bit scary 'cause it hasn't been done before .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So it seems {disfmarker} we'd have to do more research on it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Or I dunno if you could have a battery pack .
Industrial Designer: Like as a backup for something .
User Interface: Backup . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah so there's there is a one battery , because most remotes use two batteries I believe .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So , if it was running off of one battery as a {disfmarker}
User Interface: That would be good yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Some alternative just in case something went wrong .
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: Maybe we could {disfmarker} you were saying about um solar power ma maybe not working indoors , but a lot of calculators , yeah , have solar power .
Industrial Designer: That's true . I just thought of that {gap} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: So maybe that could be incorporated as {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: May maybe that could be the backup .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Instead of a battery .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Like solar backup .
Marketing: Although it needs some light , doesn't it ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I suppose
Project Manager: Yeah , you can watch a T_V_ in the dark then .
User Interface: Do , do those calculators {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: s but some {disfmarker}
Marketing: So , if we're doing {disfmarker}
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: yeah . If we're {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But thing is , it's not {disfmarker} you don't need the solar all the time .
User Interface: I don't know how it works .
Industrial Designer: It can be stored . It can be like {disfmarker} you can have the solar energy and then it can store that energy and use it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It just needs to be in light for a certain amount of time per day .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Like a few hours a day . {gap} .
Project Manager: I think that might be a little impractical though .
Marketing: Yeah . I think sometimes it's just shoved under , under a cushion ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: and {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: That's true . It could easily {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Like people don't wanna have to worry about that .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I suppose it would be really annoying if you get to think , oh no , I forgot to charge my remote today .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Like if the kinetic thing , I think what's best about that is that it's instant energy .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You don't have to , you know , you can shake it a few times , or whatever .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And it works .
Project Manager: Or just like pick it up when you're gonna use it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Instead of you don't have to like make sure it's in the right place to charge and {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah , I suppose .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Alright . Cool .
Industrial Designer: K okay .
Project Manager: 'S that the end of your presentation .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Alright .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Thank you .
Industrial Designer: There we go .
User Interface: Thanks . Oh . {vocalsound} It's not on my screen .
Industrial Designer: {gap} it wasn't on mine either .
User Interface: Why ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't know why . I think , I just , I just used the mouse on there .
User Interface: You don't know why ? Oh okay . Is it that one ?
Project Manager: Yeah . That's um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Um , I'm just gonna go through the interface concept with yous now . Uh , first of all I'll explain what a user interface is . It's the aspects of a computer system which can be seen or otherwise perceived , for example , heard or felt maybe , or {vocalsound} by the human user . And it's also the commands that the user uses to control its operation and to input data . Um , there are two types of user interfaces . There's the graphical user interface , which emphasises the use of pictures for output and a pointing device , for example a mouse for input control . So that's sort of like the scroll thing we were talking about .
Project Manager: Oh . Okay . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . I'm not really sure about the pictures that {disfmarker} maybe that's on an L_C_D_ screen .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Or maybe it's the the buttons or pictures or something . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Do you think it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , 'cause {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So I suppose sometime {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I'm sorry ?
Industrial Designer: after you . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um , because command interface requires you to type textual commands and input at a keyboard , so the numbers are sort of like a keyboard . You're pressing the numbers for , um , for what you want .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: So you must , for the graphical user you must need some kind of presentation for the graphics .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I s I suppose where um mm on some buttons you would have {disfmarker} like the power would be s some kind of symbol .
User Interface: Like an L_C_D_ screen .
Industrial Designer: And if you wanted to go onto teletext or ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I know we're not having that , but I mean a similar thing ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: you , they have {disfmarker} there's a like little picture with a screen with lines across it , which {disfmarker} I suppose it's that sort of thing like the , the symbol on the button .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But if we're having a simplified display anyway , w that , we probably won't have to focus so much on that .
Project Manager: Yeah , we'll be doing {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It'll be more the on the numbers and the volume .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . It'd be more a command interface , and then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I suppose we need to think of symbols for like the volume , display , and stuff like that .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So it's just draf graphical for the pointing aspect ?
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker}
Marketing: The infrared is like , that's considered a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm ?
User Interface: No I think it's to do with the actual symbols that are on the , that's on the buttons of the remote control , and per
Marketing: Okay . So when it says pointing device that doesn't include {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: For inp
User Interface: Well it could be a wee scroller thing , and something could come up on the screen .
Project Manager: Yeah . I think they're talking about L_C_D_ type things .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: But um I think we're gonna go with the command interface anyway ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: to make it more simplistic . But the , we could incorporate some of the graphical user um points ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: as in {disfmarker} just to make it m um nicer to look at maybe . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What do you mean ?
User Interface: Like {vocalsound} I can't think of an example , but {disfmarker} Sort of like little pictures rather than {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh yeah , like how the buttons {disfmarker}
User Interface: Like a little sound . Instead of saying volume , like a little speaker or something .
Project Manager: Yeah , as a button though .
User Interface: Yeah , something y
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: So , it's a keyboard in the shape of it , right ?
User Interface: Yeah m perha yeah . Yeah . Maybe .
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah . I like that idea .
User Interface: Um , the co uh {disfmarker} we've decided that the command interface would be the most useful for a remote control . As it would be less complicated , and the controls would be more user-friendly . Um , the remote control would be cheaper to design , so that we'd have more money in the budget to , um , target the design area of the interface . You know , make it more trendy and original . We'll have more money if we keep it simple .
Project Manager: Yeah . I'm sure i like kinetic energy would probably dip into the budget . A bit more too , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . Seeing as it's quite a new technology . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We , we also have to keep in mind when we're designing our , um , more user-friendly remote control , that a lot of interfaces consist of a clutter of buttons , that , um , that their functions , colours and forms aren't always helpful .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . That's true . That's in like the buttons with all the different like colours for different choices and things .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It can be a bit , yeah , overwhelming . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . And that all interfaces are different . So , um , that doesn't improve the use of the produ product , so we need to come up with something that's easy to understand . And maybe learn from the mistakes of other interfaces that can be too complicated for people to use .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
User Interface: Does anyone have any questions ?
Project Manager: Do you think that we should keep all the buttons to one same colour , just to keep it , give it a simplistic look .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: I think if we go with the um design plate thing , we'll have to . Just because of colour clashing ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: and if we wanted to ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: so and , and we might , I mean , depending on what comes out of the design , we might have to stick to just black buttons .
User Interface: But um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But what about the lighting up effect ?
Marketing: You mean different colours for the lighting or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um , well , um , I thought we had um decided that we would {disfmarker} if you touched one of the buttons they'd all light up . And so if they were black , it wouldn't be possible for them to light up .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Oh I see what you're saying .
Project Manager: If they were white they would glow , probably .
Marketing: Well y
Project Manager: If they were made out of rubber .
Marketing: Oh so you're picturing the light is coming from the back . I kinda pictured it as kind of coming from the sides and lighting it up frontwards .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Project Manager: Oh .
Marketing: But , but I guess , you mean from the back .
Project Manager: Where would the light come from ?
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I'd assume , like , an internal light , that comes through .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So there would have to , have to be some parts maybe transparent around the buttons , or something .
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: and well rubber is a more translucent product too ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: so we have that taken care of .
Industrial Designer: It should be able to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: mm-hmm .
User Interface: In the phone that I was thinking of as well , when you change the um covers of it , the , the little buttons that actually , you know , that contro control stuff , are behind the rubber .
Industrial Designer: Li yeah .
User Interface: So you can change the buttons when you're changing the faces . Do you know what I mean ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh .
Project Manager: Oh .
User Interface: 'Cause it's just the wee control ,
Marketing: Yeah . They , they insert over .
User Interface: yeah , thing that's behind it .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: So {disfmarker} I mean , we don't have to decide on one colour . Each face could have its own colour of buttons maybe ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Well , if they're raised up buttons . So that you can feel them .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: We were talking about it being more um , a lot more tangible .
Marketing: T
Project Manager: Um , it might be more difficult to do . If they're , if they're sticking up .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: If it's flat then , like o like on a cellphone or a mobile phone , it's like all very flat , and you just have to sort of press down on these tiny little buttons , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think it would be possible . I don't think it would make that much difference . I mean , the uh the dimensions of it . 'Cause if it's just like constructed in the same way as like the front cover of a mobile phone . You can like take off the hard cover and then there's the like say the buttons . And then you get to the circuit . I don't think it would matter that the buttons were bigger through the , the top casing . I'm sure you could f work it out to fit in the casing , without causing too much difficulty .
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay .
Industrial Designer: I'm sure that'd be fine . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Alright . If it's do-able we can do .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , sounds good to me .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So that's everything , then ?
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Alright , thank you .
Marketing: Okay is that my turn then ?
Project Manager: That means you're up . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Alright . {vocalsound} I have a shorter report for you today . Um , it took a while to get this , uh {disfmarker} Uh .
Industrial Designer: You're not plugged in yet .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's a very good point .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay , so um , this report is about uh trend-watching . Um , basically so we can live up to our , our uh purpose of having a very fashionable remote control . Sorry . There we go . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So , just so you know , my method was mainly web web-based research this time around . I also spoke with fashion experts in Milan , New York and Paris . And I looked at the design reports from previous years , here at Real Remote . Um , just so c we can work off of them , see how fashions have changed . Um , {vocalsound} so I'll list the three most important aspects that I've come across . Um , and they , they're each more important than the one that comes after it . Uh , the first one is that there should be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look-and-feel . Um , this should be our priority , as we've been saying . The second most important aspect is that a remote sh that the remote control should be technologically innovative . So , I think we've done a lot of talking about that , just with lighting and the buttons and the {disfmarker} face-plates . Um , so it looks like we'll be able to keep on track with that . And the third most important aspect is that the remote control should be easy to use . {vocalsound} So , pretty basic there . And the recent fashion update , uh , according to fashion-watchers in Paris and Milan , is that fruit and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . {vocalsound} Um , also , in contra uh in contrast to last year , the feel of the material is expected to be spongy . Again , we've already discussed that with rubber versus hard plastic buttons . Um {disfmarker} So , my personal preferences here , um of course , as {disfmarker} we , we've already talked about the personal face-plates in this meeting , and I'd like to stick to that . The fruits and vegetable themes , I don't know if that's going to work for us . It sounds something that you'd use on kitchenware .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: I don't know if we wanna do it on remotes .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It could be one of the options .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Maybe for the television that people have in their kitchen . Um , the temporary light-up idea , sounds like we're gonna stick to that . And then , uh , tying in a trendy look with user-friendliness .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah , it's the fruits and vegetables is the only area that I find rather jarring . Everything else we can really , we can really
Industrial Designer: It is strange .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: um , do , according to our plans already , given the market . But fruits and vegetables seems a very strange idea for a remote control .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} It's , it's a little {gap} but it , it's everywhere .
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So maybe we {disfmarker} I've seen a lot of purses with olives on them , you know .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: But I I think , I think if we stick to T_V_ based , you know , maybe T_V_ shows , or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But they still need to um fit into people's decor though .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Or colour schemes .
Industrial Designer: We {disfmarker} I think we possibly could take a more abstract design .
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: Like look at the basic shapes of different fruits and vegetables . And then just really like strip it down to like really basic shapes . I mean we don't have to make something in the shape of a strawberry , but it could have the curves of a strawberry , or something .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Or a strawberry seed or a leaf .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: The {disfmarker} The essence of strawberry . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Or just like you know really make it a quite abstract , if that's fits in more with what we're doing . Instead of fruits and vegetables ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: just {disfmarker} if you look at it straightforward , it's a bit {disfmarker} yeah . It doesn't s quite fit in with the trendy {disfmarker} well , obviously it does , if that's the current theme .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But {vocalsound} may maybe we could go more directly , I don't know .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But initially , I dunno . I think if we just sort of tone it down a bit .
Project Manager: Tone it down . Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah and like not , not {disfmarker}
Marketing: I guess , yeah .
Project Manager: like more like photos of fruit , on , on our product .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah .
User Interface: Or banana-shaped . {vocalsound}
Marketing: One thing I was thinking though is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I dunno if you all remember from our kickoff meeting , we talked about our favourite animals .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: So maybe there could be animal-based , you know . Because a lot of people have a house cat . Or , or a dog .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Um , that might be getting , you know , too specific , and we should see what the success of the first face-plates are . But it's something to keep in mind .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} And , did you have any questions ? Pretty straightforward ?
Project Manager: Yeah um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Alright , given that information , we need to start making some more specific decisions . So I'll need to um hook up the PowerPoint again .
Marketing: There you go . {vocalsound} Have you guys been saving your PowerPoint presentations to the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I didn't for the first one . But I have now .
Marketing: okay .
Project Manager: But it's still around right ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . Uh , hopefully
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Where do you have to save it to ?
Industrial Designer: . Project documents I think .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay . I'm just trying to make this pop up now . Alright . Here we go . Okay so we have to uh decide now exactly what we are going to do . So energy , we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: oh . Oh no I can't write it in when it's in this setting .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Does anyone know how to take it out of {disfmarker} Um ,
User Interface: Just escape I think .
Marketing: The PowerPoint ?
Project Manager: yeah . Yeah . Okay . Um , so back to decisions . Energy , we've decided on kinetic , right ?
Industrial Designer: Kinetic yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , so that's good .
Industrial Designer: Are we going to have a backup ?
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Or do we just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But would a backup really be necessary ? I mean will people just use the battery if there's no , if there's ,
Industrial Designer: I think maybe we could just go for the kinetic energy ,
Project Manager: if there is backup .
Industrial Designer: and be bold and innovative ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and hope this works , and well hope that it works .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: There's like no reason why it wouldn't work , right ?
Industrial Designer: yeah . I think {disfmarker} no . I , I think we should just like take uh advantage of like using this to its full potential .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . It could even be one of our selling points .
Industrial Designer: Go for it . It could be {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: fully kinetic energy .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Environmentally conscious or something .
Industrial Designer: Is everyone happy with that ?
Marketing: So if it's not working they just have to shake it a bit and that revitalises it ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Hope so . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Alright , the next um decision is chip on print . I don't exactly know what that means .
Industrial Designer: Um , it was whether we went for the simple , the regular , or the advanced chip . And that linked in with what buttons we would gonna have , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right , and we were going for more simplistic style , right ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it was {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so that was without the L_C_D_ . So that means we're not doing the advanced .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So it depends on whether we wanted the scroll buttons or just the push buttons .
Project Manager: I think we decided on the pushbuttons , right ?
Industrial Designer: Uh , so that's the simple .
User Interface: Yeah . I don
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Would we need a more advanced one for uh the lighting , the interior lighting system ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah possibly .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: So , it's probably gonna be the regular chip that we're going to need .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So it's a medium .
Project Manager: That's called medium , or regular ?
Industrial Designer: So regular chip . Regular sorry . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Regular chip .
Marketing: Oh , is regular not simple ?
Industrial Designer: Lighting .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah if we {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's for the lighting , yeah .
Industrial Designer: because of the lighting that we've decided to put in as well .
Marketing: Right right right .
Project Manager: Okay , and cases . Um , does this , is this dependent on shape , or what it's made of , or what ?
Industrial Designer: So th I think this is just like gonna be the {disfmarker} a very outer case , which we will decide on rubber .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Well , I guess plastic and coated in rubber .
Industrial Designer: Rubber .
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Plastic with rubber
Industrial Designer: Plastic rubber coat .
User Interface: plastic coat .
Project Manager: coating and interchangeable um
Industrial Designer: Interchangeable , yeah . Still going for that .
Project Manager: yeah , interchangeable plates .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . User interface concept . This is your time to shine .
User Interface: We decided on the component . I , I I'm sorry , I've lost my um {vocalsound} PowerPoint thing , so I can't remember what it's ca it's the component {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Your screen ?
Marketing: Think it was called command interface .
Industrial Designer: Was it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh , yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Command interface , {gap} .
User Interface: The command inter
Project Manager: Command interface .
Industrial Designer: Ouch .
User Interface: The command line interface yeah .
Project Manager: Did you say command line ? Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Line interface .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright , and supplements . What's that all about ?
User Interface: Um , I think that is {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: well we haven't really made any decisions about what we're gonna do about the cluster of button functions , colours and forms , in the {disfmarker} in consistent use . Like what what are ideas to combat these problems ?
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: You know how um different interfaces are very different , and can be confusing because because of their difference , and because of the different clusters of buttons that they have .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: We haven't really decided what to do about that .
Project Manager: Um , what are our choices here ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well it's just um w where where shall we locate the buttons . What kind of functions wi shall we have ?
Project Manager: You mean like we'll have the numbers of the channels , and we'll have the channel-changer , and volume , and power ?
Industrial Designer: The power . Volume .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: So pretty {disfmarker} just just the basic button functions .
Project Manager: Yeah . Like I don't know if we should go into like adjusting light levels , things like that , because different televisions will have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: May yeah .
Project Manager: Um , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Tone , contrast , and things . That's a bit {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} That was on , um one of my presentations . About how often it was used .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it was minima
Marketing: Do you remember that ?
Industrial Designer: well , it wasn't the l
Project Manager: Yeah , it was hardly ever used really .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I w {vocalsound} Should I bring it up ?
Project Manager: Yeah . And most televisions will come with a remote .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . That would be good . Yeah , and surely that would be like quite specific to the individual television ,
User Interface: Yeah , each television .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: 'Kay , well we know we want numbers .
Marketing: The ch t Screen settings was used um zero point five times an hour . So tw twice every {disfmarker} once every two hours . Um , and it was considered a one point five relevance , on a scale of ten . That's brightness , colour , tone , all that .
Industrial Designer: Mm . I think most of that comes like on the i individual television set itself ,
User Interface: You don't change that often , yeah .
Industrial Designer: doesn't it ? I'm sure it has its own buttons , so you don't necessarily need to have it on remote .
Project Manager: Yeah , it does .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah , and different televisions .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Like we , I don't know if we can make a remote that would be universal to all the different kinds of
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: changes like that .
Industrial Designer: So we're just going for power , channels , volume ,
Project Manager: Volume .
Marketing: The other one was audio settings . Mono , stereo , pitch . I mean I sometimes use that . Some T_V_s will have the option of like living room style , movie style , um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: and that , they say that's used zero point eight times an hour , which is actually somewhat high . Like almost once an hour .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Um , relevance of two .
Project Manager: Oh . We have five minutes to finish our meeting .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Crap . Okay , um , let's do this fast . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well that didn't some up on mine .
Project Manager: Should we have audio ? It only comes up on mine usually .
User Interface: It w {vocalsound} it would seem silly if we'd {gap} having anything else , just have an audio button though .
Marketing: Oh .
Project Manager: Yeah ,
User Interface: Do you know ?
Project Manager: I don't , I {disfmarker} it's , it's a problem with the international uh appeal , I think . Um , if we have audio because we don't know how other televisions work . But we know that everyone has this and it's the same .
User Interface: But we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I've {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah I guess that it affects the marketing , 'cause it , {vocalsound} mm it is a good sales ploy to say , aren't you annoyed with remote controls that have all these buttons .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: This one has channel , volume and your channe and your power .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's it . We can just go for , make it a selling point that it is just the basic .
User Interface: That could be a sales pitch .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Simple and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah uh I {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Alright .
Industrial Designer: brilliant .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Good . And , okay , in closing , 'cause we only have five minutes . We'll be meeting again in thirty minutes . Um , you'll be working , Poppy will be working on the look-and-feel design . Wait a minute . Is that right ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yep , and um the user interface design , so this is where the trendy stuff comes in . And you'll be evaluating the product . Um , Poppy and Tara will have to work together , using modelling clay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And , um , your personal coach will give you the rest of the information of what needs to happen .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Alright . So , anyone else have something to say ?
Industrial Designer: Um , I just have one question about the whole fruit and vegetable aspect .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Are we {disfmarker} seeing as that was the most popular thing that came up out of your market research , I thi I think we should keep to that rather than moving to animals or something , because even if that may not seem obvious to us , if that's what the surveys brought out , I think that we should probably go along with that .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um , so I suppose that'll come out in our dev design development . But you're happy to go ahead with the fruit and veg ?
Marketing: Now do you guys need {disfmarker} want an idea of how many uh {disfmarker} are you gonna come up with casing ideas ?
Industrial Designer: Y Yeah .
Marketing: Like f five different {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {gap} five . {gap} .
User Interface: What I {disfmarker} What I was thinking {disfmarker} what do yous think of this ? Um , having the numbers kind of like , not a bunch of grapes , but you know like purple and kind of in a triangle .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Like grapes . Like that's kind of fruity or something .
Marketing: Yeah you can have some fun with the buttons , it's true .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: That's just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We can have a look at those ideas , yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: I guess what you i ideally you'd kind of think of age markets as well .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So it's a something that will , you know , appeal to the fifteen to twenty five year olds . Something that your granny would want on her remote control .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Um , and international tastes as well , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Tricky . {vocalsound} A lot of things to consider . Hm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Not easy . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . Lots of {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: yeah . Alright .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: 'Kay we'll stick to the fruit and veggie theme then .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright . And , um , we'll reconvene in thirty minutes .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Bye .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Thank you . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I'll see you later . {vocalsound} Oh , what did I just do . Okay .
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Project Manager: Uh it fell off . One , two , three , four , yeah , we're ready . Okay . Welcome to this second meeting . Um it's now quarter after twelve and we're given forty minutes um for this meeting . This is a meeting on functional design . Um and I wanna welcome you all and thank you all for doing some research in between . Um I did {disfmarker} took the minutes from the first meeting and I'll show them to you in a moment . Um I know each of you have a presentation and um in thinking about the forty minutes , I thought it would take only like three minutes for the previous minutes , um each of you having about seven minutes or maybe a little more , maybe a little less for your pre presentations and a little discussion , because there's {disfmarker} I happen to have been told there were some new project requirements and we have to make some uh decision on what functions it will have . Okay ? Is this ap everybody agree with this ?
Industrial Designer: Oops .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: Okay . Um and after the meeting there'll be things to be done and as you can see it says we get to get lunch , um and then some more individual work and then putting minutes away and individual actions . {vocalsound} Um but uh now for the minutes of the first meeting . And go to that one . Um as you can see it was this earlier today . Um Kate , Steph , Sarah and myself in our four capacities were present . I opened the meeting , the product was developed uh and reviewed , and we talked about the financial end of it . Um and it had some implications , um the four million sales target and new ideas of not too many buttons , bright colours and some of the influence of the Japanese . And we closed early so you could then proceed with your research and getting your reports together for tod this meeting {vocalsound} Anybody have any questions on those minutes ? Are they complete , did they discuss everything that we covered last time ? 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Uh I think so ,
Project Manager: Did I miss something ?
Industrial Designer: we we we talked about the the individual roles that we each had as well .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah . I'm afraid I incorporated {vocalsound} that when I said who was present , but {disfmarker} yes , we did ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: and we did a little bit of uh team building of uh of making the pictures ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay , I accept the minutes .
Project Manager: but I didn't think those were appropriate to the minutes necessarily . So um as a group I think we've {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} they're accepting the minutes . And uh {disfmarker} okay .
Marketing: Is that what we're supposed to say ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , I do .
Project Manager: Good . Um , then we'll move to the three presentations . Okay ?
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay . Mm we need to move this . Who wants to go f first ? {vocalsound} That's as far as it goes .
User Interface: Uh not really meant to touch those microphones . Oh it doesn't have any on , does it ? That's fine .
Marketing: Excellent , thank you .
Industrial Designer: Oy , big loop under the table .
Project Manager: She said we didn't need to screw it in .
Marketing: Okay . Okay , that looks good .
Project Manager: It's doing its thing . There we are .
Marketing: Alright . Thank you very much . Um . One of the the biggest issues I found about um from last meeting was the fact that we need to sell four million of these um remote controls and I think that this is an opportunity to really take Real Reaction in the direction of of similar {disfmarker} of handheld tools that have been used and are used by many of us and to kind of bring the remote control into the si same realm as an accessible um useful electronic device , as opposed to something that is lost in the couch and what have you . So um my main goal here is to re-envision the remote control in in this context and to think about menu functionality and current technology and the fact that it could be interactive with other tools . Um some of the research uh in the market has shown that people really are not happy with remote controls as they are now , and um that means we do need to make some decisions about what what keys or or buttons on the on the remote control to perhaps keep and and what ones to discard . And if we devote some energy into this , I think the um recent productions of Real Reaction , the I go everywhere power and the high definition D_V_D_ players {disfmarker} although it makes immediate sense to {vocalsound} have our remote control interact with these , I think we can also use this as a platform to make it interact with other tools . And um in fact I think the high definition D_V_D_ players and all of this will come along in the uh {disfmarker} will only benefit from the positive feedback {vocalsound} from our well designed tool . So again , most uh users really dislike the current look and feel of remote controls . Um {vocalsound} fifty percent {disfmarker} I think of all these uh numbers the most important is fifty percent of user say they only use ten percent of the buttons . And eighty percent of users , and if we think about this {vocalsound} there are a lot of uh television , D_V_D_ , stereo remote control users out there , eighty percent would spend more money on a remote control that looks fancy .
Industrial Designer: Could {disfmarker} can I ask where these figures come from , is this market research we've {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um it was market research and there were a hundred people in the room , so eighty out of a hundred said they would spend more money .
Project Manager: Now in between , as the Project Manager , they sent me an email from the powers that be
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: um that teletext is outdated um
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and the internet is coming in as important , but that they want this remote control to only be for T_V_ um with incorporating the corporate image , colour and slogan .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Well I think we can {disfmarker} I I think we can really focus on this remote and and again bring the Real Reaction um brand in in and and get some positive marketing for our other tools , even if we directly don't um advertise {vocalsound} for the I go everywhere line .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: So an interesting um element was the would you pay more for speech recognition question . So these market research uh uh questionnaires {vocalsound} looked into your your uh concern about technology
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and s specifically wanted to find out information about speech recognition .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Now the early adopters , those of us who grew up with technology and uh luck lucky for us have the uh cash to to pay for it , the young age group without the mortgages and responsibilities , ninety one percent of them {vocalsound} would pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . Very interesting , I I leave this up to the group to decide if we wanna use this uh if {disfmarker} and you know , the the designers ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: but ninety one percent , fifteen to twenty five {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is that a large enough target market to target it ?
Marketing: Well , I I I think {disfmarker} especially in terms of growth , I think this would be a very smart group to target . I mean s three quarters of the next age group , twenty five to thirty five are interested , and uh with the technologies improving , if we can get these uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: In real numbers , does the ninety one percent and the seventy six percent translate to ex in excess of the four million ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . To {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um yes .
Project Manager: Or eight million .
Marketing: Yes . But would you pay more and does it work and is it approachable and and did I know that it was it was an {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: that's a that's a very good question .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know if speech recognition should be um should be included ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: but I think it's an interesting {disfmarker} I think that maybe shows more about uh being open to technology .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Uh it definitely needs uh a lot more research
Marketing: Shall I go back ?
User Interface: on like how much more it would be and any , you know , existing examples ,
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: and what reactions to them have been , and that sort of thing .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: How d I'm wondering how how ou how our target price compares with the the typical price of these things . I expect an Industrial Designer should know that , but if we're aiming to to build this thing for twelve Euros fifty , um is that a lot or a little ?
Marketing: Exactly . I mean I I I uh did not receive any information on that , but I think the competition , sussing out what other people are doing and what's in the pipeline is very very important , because um there is a question about do you want an L_C_D_ screen and and that wasn't responded to , but uh some of the larger remotes do have screens where you can navigate , you know , so it turns into something {disfmarker} uh perhaps you all have seen uh the Osbournes where Ozzy Osbourne is is attempting to manage his super entertainment system with something that looks like a uh a small tray .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sh surely he's in the wrong age group .
Marketing: You know ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: it's {disfmarker} I a and I think , you know {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: He must be w one of a s small population . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} No , no ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: you {disfmarker} Kate , you're exactly right there . {vocalsound} But I think the key is to get the early adopters , people who are familiar with technology and and uh they'll be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But we're not looking at whether they're early adopters on that screen ,
Marketing: Uh , mm .
Project Manager: that's looking at age groups .
Marketing: Exactly . I {vocalsound} yes , and I'm making and I'm making the the uh uh leap that people who are familiar {disfmarker} younger people are l are more familiar with technology than than older people . Or comfortable ,
Project Manager: Leap . {vocalsound} Hmm . Mm .
Marketing: you know , um so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , you had the other power channel .
Marketing: I think the most important thing is an attractive streamlined remote control and to be extraordinarily reductionist , power , channel , volume and everything else is is uh up to the designers . {vocalsound} And this is this is also supported by the market research .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Thank you . That's my contribution .
Project Manager: Alright . And we'll turn to the next presentation . I think she said we don't need to screw it in , just stick it in . And then press , what ? F F_N_ and F_ eight . Next to the control button on the bottom , and then F_ eight at the top .
User Interface: Yeah , press them .
Project Manager: And then w be patient . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , here we go .
Project Manager: Tada .
Industrial Designer: And if you want it to go into slide show mode , it's that little button there .
User Interface: Can I not just uh do each one in order ?
Industrial Designer: I you can if you like , it it {disfmarker} that that just sets it up to do a p a p
Project Manager: There we are . Yay .
User Interface: That ?
Industrial Designer: no that one , that one there .
User Interface: That ?
Industrial Designer: Left , left a bit , left a bit , that one , yep .
User Interface: That ? Right , technical functions design . Uh well I think first off , basically I do agree with what Sarah has defined as as uh your personal preferences,yeah . I think we need uh a more streamlined volume with no extraneous functions . So my method was to look at the existing remotes and what functions they have . And what we all need to discuss is whether we want these functions uh pretty much the same as what existing remotes have . If we can build on this with the speech recognition , that's not something I'd thought about at all , but it's also something we can discuss .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Um and and I presume we can miss out the functions really to to a video or D_V_D_ remote control , if this is only gonna be a , you know , satellite , cable , T_V_ remote control .
Project Manager: T_V_ only .
User Interface: So these are two models of existing remote controls . Uh the one on the left seems to be a fairly uh standard universal remote control .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Ugh .
User Interface: It has fast-forward , stop , play , all relating to movies . It also has {disfmarker} seems to have channel up and channel down , which is which is more what you'd expect from a , you know , like a Sky or cable remote control
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: where you've got hundreds of channels instead of a merely terrestrial one . Uh but I think we should be looking more along the lines of the one on the right , which has {disfmarker} it also has play , stop and pause and everything , I don't think we need them at all . I think we just need channel selection , volume up , volume down and I think an an enter function where you can access {disfmarker} it's not like teletext , but along the same lines , access things on the screen . Uh not related to the internet one that you mentioned , because that'd be far outside our budget and what we want this to do .
Project Manager: Mm . And exceed the requirements they're expecting of us .
User Interface: So it really exceed the requirements , 'cause the requirements really are just {disfmarker} want to be able to change channels and functions , which is more a text on the screen thing than uh than actual buttons
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: o I was thinking something {disfmarker} some smooth , sleek , little remote control with big user-friendly buttons and uh a menu that you can access .
Project Manager: Alright .
User Interface: Uh but then I do think we need to discuss the speech um recognition possibility .
Project Manager: Okay . Any uh thing else you wanna add ?
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: But we could go back to the pictures of the {disfmarker} uh , what're they called ? The pictures of the remote controls and possibly discuss what we think about them ,
Marketing: Or if {disfmarker}
User Interface: but {vocalsound} maybe should hear what Kate has to say first .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Let's hear what Kate has to say .
User Interface: Okay then .
Marketing: Maybe afterwards we could do a uh whiteboard with that {disfmarker} your {disfmarker} the one on the right as a as a basis .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: Whiteboard session .
Project Manager: I think the white {disfmarker} that one on the right is , as well as less cluttered , {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Definitely less cluttered and {disfmarker} I mean but still it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's there
User Interface: Sorry
Project Manager: but it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: I was just {disfmarker} I'll just uh resume something else I was gonna say .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: The the style of these is terrible .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I I I really think we need to uh not only possibly even materials , like the type of plastic used , but everything including size and shape of buttons , positioning of buttons , the actual shape of the hand-held device , colours , just every e yeah , everything to do with this has to be revolutionised . {vocalsound}
Marketing: The ergonomics , the way it fits in your {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: So that's that for now .
Industrial Designer: Cheers . Mm , I haven't actually got a display on my screen .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Still , I'll do without that . Okay um , now I wanna bring us down to earth again I'm afraid and talk about the actual practicalities of how the thing needs to work . {vocalsound} Um oh and this is the methodology I used in preparing for this meeting . Um basically I've been doing a little bit of web-based research , {vocalsound} and if I had a design team , I would've been discussing my ideas with 'em . But the the net result is that I've come up with a first cut for the working design that I'd like to discuss with you . So , let's go back to what the basic function of a remote control is . It's for sending a message , um typically um via infrared . {vocalsound} And the the basic components we've got to build in for our twelve Euros fifty are um an energy source , the user interface and {disfmarker} which will um in incorporate um an integrated circuit that actually composes the message um based on what the {disfmarker} which buttons the user presses , we turn that into a message , um and then we need a sending mechanism to send it to the receiver . Now I would have hoped {disfmarker} I think that's my only slide actually , yeah . I would have have hoped to um do you a pretty PowerPoint slide of um my first cut design , but unfortunately the technology defeated me , so if you'll bear with me I'll do it on the whiteboard . {vocalsound} So we want an energy source which is there . And we've got to think about what that might be .
Project Manager: Hmm-mm .
Industrial Designer: Uh we obviously don't want wires on this thing . Uh typically it would be a battery , but I'm open to suggestions . {vocalsound} Um and then we have the the user interface . Oops . And the main components in there are the the th the chip that actually has the intelligence of the machine that translates button presses into a message , which it then transfers to some sending mechanism , which encodes it and sends the message to the receiver . So those are the basic things that we've got to get in for our twelve Euros fifty . {vocalsound} Thank you .
Project Manager: Hmm . {vocalsound} Okay . Right . But those things {disfmarker} as long as we can get those components , the block , that that rectangle for the user interface , is where the user comes in of {disfmarker} what what does it look like ? What do the buttons look like ? Uh what does it feel like ? That's where the user interface is really coming into its own .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: The technical end is what's actually gonna be in there , but also it has to be easy enough to change or repair if something goes wrong . For example the battery energy source or um what if the chip , for whatever reason , breaks down after a certain amount of time , do you just replace it ? Um is there any um {disfmarker} because it may be in the same area with several other user interfaces , like for D_V_D_s , movies , whatever . Um does it have to have a a way of being segregated from the others , in a different frequency or something ?
Industrial Designer: Well I may be wrong here , but I'd been thinking of this device as being a a cheap mass-produced device . We're trying to sell four million of 'em ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: um that's that's , you know , that's almost one in every tenth household or whatever it is . Um and I hadn't thought of it as being a reparable thing ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: you just {disfmarker} if it goes wrong you chuck it out , and that's why I'm a bit concerned . I like the idea of speech recognition , that's a great idea , but I'm not convinced we can put it into this box for the price that we need {disfmarker} gonna need to hit .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Whoop .
Marketing: Do we have um ki some idea of how much it would cost to create a device that has these basic elements ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Isn't that your job ?
Marketing: Because then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh right .
Marketing: the chip composer marketing . Oh no , the chip composer sender .
Project Manager: Mm . What they cost .
Industrial Designer: Um , I'm I'm I'm hoping that my personal coach is gonna {vocalsound} give me some advice on that , if you're asking me ,
Marketing: I I don't believe I know , um .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Be because then we would ha ha figure out how much we had to play with in terms of user interface and this look and feel idea .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: It does it does seem as if we're just to do something really simple and mass-produced , the {disfmarker} which is pretty much the same as these existing models ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: just maybe a little bit more inspired ,
Marketing: Inspired ?
User Interface: but basically just the same .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Although what what uh suddenly came into my head is , you know how they always take two A_A_ batteries which which is really not very efficient at all . Could it be possible to have uh , you know , like a rechargeable internal battery , like , well , like an M_P_ three player does ? With that you could jus or a mobile phone or whatever .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: You could {disfmarker} you know , you just plug into a power source for a couple of hours , and then it's recharged for ages and ages and ages , and you don't have to worry with replacing A_A_ batteries ,
Marketing: Well
User Interface: which are {disfmarker}
Marketing: that has another element , which is if every time you're done using the remote you put it on a charger , then you {disfmarker} then it has a place .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: You'd never need uh batteries would y uh yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , but it also has a place ,
User Interface: And it's not stuck down the back of the sofa .
Marketing: so {disfmarker} exactly .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} But then again I d I don't know if this is within our price range or not .
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's a really good idea .
Industrial Designer: Well I uh think that's a very interesting idea , but um I'm not a very good industrial designer and I don't know much about what these things cost . {vocalsound} I'll do some research for the next meeting .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well it's better than my idea about solar , probably . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well solar may not be so good when you're watching T_V_ in the night ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Well it is just so annoying how {disfmarker}
Marketing: Depen
Project Manager: It would have to sor store up the energy
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I guess .
Project Manager: and then use it . Solar can do that .
Industrial Designer: We may be talking quite heavy then .
Project Manager: M yeah , that would be too heavy
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: and it'd cost too much .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: No , but just a rechargeable internal battery would probably {disfmarker} I mean it might cost more to {disfmarker} at first to develop and to install ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm
User Interface: but for long-term use it'll be so much more convenient and economic than fiddling around trying to replace chunky A_A_ batteries and not having any in your kitchen drawer
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and
Industrial Designer: So do you think we might make that a selling point if it was something that we found we could afford to develop ?
User Interface: you know f
Marketing: Definitely ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: 'cause I'm thinking in terms of um uh {vocalsound} the {vocalsound} loss and breakage of um remotes , how much of that is is to do with it not really having a uh a home , a um a nest , a place to live ,
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Sort of have its little dock that you could put it in .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: exactly .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So if you can dock it , um you know , you could s argue that this is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And the dock could look very fancy and that could be your inspiration of having it looking decent .
Marketing: Exactly .
User Interface: Still I don't know if it's quite within our price range .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: Mm . 'Cause you are talking about another component , like another piece of hardware .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Are we agreed as to what our target group is though ? Pretty much , so that we'd be looking for the younger end .
Marketing: Well I I brought up some {disfmarker} exactly , but I think you raised some good questions about are there enough of these people out there , or are they making purchasing decisions ?
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Marketing: You know ,
Industrial Designer: I was wondering that ,
Marketing: these are the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: because I ag I agree that there there're people with uh how can I put it , more money than sense and who are liable to buy {vocalsound} something new ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I I s usually put more money than brains .
Marketing: Yeah , exactly .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Bu but what I was gonna say was , although they they may be buying um , you know , personal music devices and all that ,
Marketing: Oh oh oh I'll make a note of that , Kate . Good , good comment .
Industrial Designer: are they necessarily buying T_V_ remote controls ? Because they probably live in a household that has a T_V_ if they're at the lower end of the age range ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I don't know .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} It might be good to know um uh who , you know , who's actually buying televisions and are we in a uh uh s region where people have more than one television in a home ?
Industrial Designer: Mm . I think we've got a big hill to climb here , haven't we ? I mean we've gotta persuade people who've got a remote control 'cause it came with the telly that they should buy our product instead .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Or do we s make sure that it goes to the man through the manufacturer ? We sell to the manufacturer as the remote that goes with it .
Industrial Designer: Right , good point . Yeah , yeah okay , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , good point .
User Interface: That's probably more what it is .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: What would be a more efficient way of doing it ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , and and some of our D_V_D_ players incidentally have them , because we have the relationship with our own department , but moreover we need to to go for the the manufacturers .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay . Right .
User Interface: {vocalsound} We're not gonna get any resolutions by the end of the day ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Probably not .
User Interface: are we ?
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Um the other thing that we're supposed to do is make decision on our functions . Our functions , we've so far decided , I think , that power , channel , volume make it attractive . Um it has to have an enter key and of course the number keys . It has to have big user-friendly buttons and sh n {vocalsound} definitely we wanna be inspired that the current {vocalsound} styles are just plain awful .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Do we need {disfmarker} um let me {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is that agreeable to everyone ?
Marketing: Br actually , um
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: the enter key {disfmarker} I have a chart here that I didn't include . Um
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Do you want the gizmo ?
Marketing: yeah , which might {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Throw some light on that .
Marketing: Th yeah , th those are {disfmarker} {vocalsound} felt like had a lot of charts . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um actually we're , you know , we are almost a half hour out of the forty minutes , so we have to get close to finishing . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay , I I {disfmarker} my only comment is I think maybe um we could somehow include an enter key in like a power key if power power was enter and pow that was my only {disfmarker} just really in terms of streamlining .
Project Manager: Ah . Mm-hmm . Okay . Enter , power as a s oh um a sum simultaneous key .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Exactly . Again , you know ,
Project Manager: Is that okay with you ?
Marketing: thinking of menus or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Sorry ,
Project Manager: Would that {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: H how does that work ?
User Interface: I was miles away .
Industrial Designer: How {disfmarker} so so how does that work ,
User Interface: I was re I was reading the chart to be honest .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um well
Project Manager: uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: how do you avoid switching the thing off when you actually wanna press enter ?
Marketing: if you're pressing enter , the the thing would already be on , and so maybe um when you press power , initially it turns it on , press power again and use that as an enter um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Then you'd have to have an off te off key .
Marketing: so you press power after you've um {disfmarker} well I was thinking maybe you {disfmarker} to turn it off you'd have to press power twice in succession ,
Industrial Designer: Okay , yep , mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: and maybe power follows something like a channel up channel down power , and then that would make that choice .
Industrial Designer: It's not getting a bit complicated ? Could granny do this ,
Marketing: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: or are we just not aiming at granny ?
Marketing: Or y yeah . Or something that has a a turning dial , where at the far end is on or off . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Who's got an iPod then ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah ,
Project Manager: Mm . Okay .
Marketing: I don't {disfmarker} um I wish . Anyway , uh {vocalsound} that was the only comment about um some of the the decisions people have made , what's most important .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: It's definitely channel , volume , power .
User Interface: Yeah , things like screen settings and audio settings , I would generally do them on the actual television itself ,
Marketing: Exactly .
User Interface: like here you have a you know , a little flap th with a little control panel on the actual box itself .
Marketing: Exactly .
User Interface: I I wouldn't know how to do it using a remote control ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: so um I would say that they are definitely less relevant .
Project Manager: Okay . So
Marketing: Okay , well . Thanks for looking at that .
Project Manager: I guess easy to use is the other thing that we want 'em to be able to do .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: As you said , you know , don't make it too hard for the granny . {vocalsound}
Marketing: We don't wanna outsmart {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I just joined that set last week .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} first grandchild arrived .
Marketing: Congratulations . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: Um so are we agreed then of those things ? And let's go back to agenda
Marketing: D
Project Manager: and hook me up . Mm . This oughta be fun . It probably won't go the first time , it'll probably be like a g mess . Come on . Uh it lost it off here . {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh you're fine . It's fine .
Project Manager: No , it was up there , but I couldn't see it down here . Mm . This time it should be both . There we go .
Industrial Designer: How do you do that ? How do you make it do both ?
Project Manager: Um you have to keep doing the financi the the F_N_ and F_ eight to {disfmarker} five minutes to finish ,
Industrial Designer: Ah okay , it toggles through ,
Project Manager: thank you a lot for telling me .
Industrial Designer: yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um right ,
Marketing: I think you have to cycle through .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: we're ready to close . Um {gap} will be completed q questionnaire , um then we'll have some time for individual work to continue our research um and I'll put some minutes of this meeting together . Um your individual assignments are for um Kate to do the components , for you , Steph , to do the user interface and for you the trend-watching . Um and each of us will get help from our coach . Are we agreed to get ourselves together and then have lunch ?
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sounds good .
Project Manager: Then that's the end of this meeting . And I hope that's good enough for her {vocalsound} to tell her that's the end . Okay ?
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: We didn't come to any sort of decision on the functions though .
Project Manager: Well I think I went over the functions and wrote them down and marked them .
User Interface: Alright , well that's fine then .
Project Manager: Um that's what I went over and nobody was objecting to them .
Marketing: Okay . Um and you'd mentioned {disfmarker} I I was just gonna say , could you reiterate the new project requirements ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: because it {disfmarker} they were {disfmarker} it has to be for a T_V_ , just to keep myself {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um the teletext is outdated ,
Industrial Designer: So we're still in meeting , aren't we ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: the internet is important ,
Marketing: Yeah , I think I've {disfmarker}
Project Manager: it's only to be for a T_V_ and it must include the corporate image , colour and slogan um
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: which I think is more in the user uh range , with Steph .
User Interface: Mm . Sorry , what what actually are these {disfmarker} is that the yellow and black ?
Project Manager: It doesn't tell me .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: From their {disfmarker} I'll just use it from their website .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Right . Thank you .
| |
doc_98
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Postdoc B: Alright .
Professor C: So , uh {disfmarker}
Grad F: Um , so I wanted to discuss digits briefly , but that won't take too long .
Professor C: Oh good . Right . OK , agenda items , Uh , we have digits , What else we got ?
PhD A: New version of the presegmentation .
Professor C: New version of presegmentation .
Postdoc B: Um , do we wanna say something about the , an update of the , uh , transcript ?
PhD G: Yeah , why don't you summarize the {disfmarker}
Professor C: Update on transcripts .
PhD G: And I guess that includes some {disfmarker} the filtering for the , the ASI refs , too .
Postdoc B: Mmm .
Professor C: Filtering for what ?
PhD G: For the references that we need to go from the {disfmarker} the {pause} fancy transcripts to the sort of {nonvocalsound} brain - dead .
Postdoc B: It 'll {disfmarker} it 'll be {disfmarker} basically it 'll be a re - cap of a meeting that we had jointly this morning .
Professor C: Uh - huh .
PhD G: With Don , as well .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Got it . Anything else more pressing than those things ? So {disfmarker} So , why don't we just do those . You said yours was brief , so {disfmarker}
Grad F: OK . OK well , the , w uh as you can see from the numbers on the digits we 're almost done . The digits goes up to {pause} about four thousand . Um , and so , uh , we probably will be done with the TI - digits in , um , another couple weeks . um , depending on how many we read each time . So there were a bunch that we skipped . You know , someone fills out the form and then they 're not at the meeting and so it 's blank . Um , but those are almost all filled in as well . And so , once we 're {disfmarker} it 's done it would be very nice to train up a recognizer and actually start working with this data .
PhD D: So we 'll have a corpus that 's the size of TI - digits ?
Grad F: And so {disfmarker} One particular test set of TI - digits .
PhD D: Test set , OK .
Grad F: So , I {disfmarker} I extracted , Ther - there was a file sitting around which people have used here as a test set . It had been randomized and so on
PhD D:
Grad F: and that 's just what I used to generate the order . of these particular ones .
PhD D: Oh ! Great . Great .
Professor C: So , I 'm impressed by what we could do , Is take the standard training set for TI - digits , train up with whatever , you know , great features we think we have , uh for instance , and then test on uh this test set .
Grad F: Um {disfmarker}
Professor C: And presumably uh it should do reasonably well on that , and then , presumably , we should go to the distant mike , and it should do poorly .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: And then we should get really smart over the next year or two , and it {disfmarker} that should get better .
Grad F: Right . And inc increase it by one or two percent , yeah .
Professor C: Yeah , {vocalsound} Yeah .
Grad F: Um , but , in order to do that we need to extract out the actual digits .
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: Um , so that {disfmarker} the reason it 's not just a transcript is that there 're false starts , and misreads , and miscues and things like that . And so I have a set of scripts and X Waves where you just select the portion , hit R , um , it tells you what the next one should be , and you just look for that . You know , so it {disfmarker} it 'll put on the screen , " The next set is six nine , nine two two " . And you find that , and , hit the key and it records it in a file in a particular format .
Professor C: So is this {disfmarker}
Grad F: And so the {disfmarker} the question is , should we have the transcribers do that or should we just do it ? Well , some of us . I 've been do I 've done , eight meetings , something like that , just by hand . Just myself , rather . So it will not take long . Um {disfmarker}
Professor C: Uh , what {disfmarker} what do you think ?
Postdoc B: My feeling is that we discussed this right before coffee and I think it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a fine idea partly because , um , it 's not un unrelated to their present skill set , but it will add , for them , an extra dimension , it might be an interesting break for them . And also it is contributing to the , uh , c composition of the transcript cuz we can incorporate those numbers directly and it 'll be a more complete transcript . So I 'm {disfmarker} I think it 's fine , that part .
Grad F: There is {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker}
Professor C: So you think it 's fine to have the transcribers do it ?
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Yeah , OK .
Grad F: There 's one other small bit , which is just entering the information which at s which is at the top of this form , onto the computer , to go along with the {disfmarker} where the digits are recorded automatically .
PhD D: Good .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: And so it 's just , you know , typing in name , times {disfmarker} time , date , and so on . Um , which again either they can do , but it is , you know , firing up an editor , or , again , I can do . Or someone else can do .
Postdoc B: And , that , you know , I 'm not , that {disfmarker} that one I 'm not so sure if it 's into the {disfmarker} the , things that , I , wanted to use the hours for , because the , the time that they 'd be spending doing that they wouldn't be able to be putting more words on .
Professor C: Mmm .
Postdoc B: But that 's really your choice , it 's your {disfmarker}
PhD D: So are these two separate tasks that can happen ? Or do they have to happen at the same time before {disfmarker}
Grad F: No they don't have {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} you have to enter the data before , you do the second task , but they don't have to happen at the same time .
PhD D: OK .
Grad F: So it 's {disfmarker} it 's just I have a file whi which has this information on it , and then when you start using my scripts , for extracting the times , it adds the times at the bottom of the file . And so , um , I mean , it 's easy to create the files and leave them blank , and so actually we could do it in either order .
PhD D: Oh , OK .
Grad F: Um , it 's {disfmarker} it 's sort of nice to have the same person do it just as a double - check , to make sure you 're entering for the right person . But , either way .
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah just by way of uh , uh , a uh , order of magnitude , uh , um , we 've been working with this Aurora , uh data set . And , uh , the best score , on the , nicest part of the data , that is , where you 've got training and test set that are basically the same kinds of noise and so forth , uh , is about , uh {disfmarker} I think the best score was something like five percent , uh , error , per digit .
PhD A: Per digit .
Professor C: So , that {disfmarker}
Grad F: Per digit .
Professor C: You 're right . So if you were doing {pause} ten digit , uh , recognition , {vocalsound} you would really be in trouble . So {disfmarker} So the {disfmarker} The point there , and this is uh car noise uh , uh things , but {disfmarker} but real {disfmarker} real situation ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: well , " real " , Um , the {disfmarker} uh there 's one microphone that 's close , that they have as {disfmarker} as this sort of thing , close versus distant . Uh but in a car , instead of {disfmarker} instead of having a projector noise it 's {disfmarker} it 's car noise . Uh but it wasn't artificially added to get some {disfmarker} some artificial signal - to - noise ratio . It was just people driving around in a car . So , that 's {disfmarker} that 's an indication , uh that was with , many sites competing , and this was the very best score and so forth , so . More typical numbers like
PhD D: Although the models weren't , that good , right ? I mean , the models are pretty crappy ?
Professor C: You 're right . I think that we could have done better on the models , but the thing is that we got {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is the kind of typical number , for all of the , uh , uh , things in this task , all of the , um , languages . And so I {disfmarker} I think we 'd probably {disfmarker} the models would be better in some than in others . Um , so , uh . Anyway , just an indication once you get into this kind of realm even if you 're looking at connected digits it can be pretty hard .
PhD D: Hmm .
Postdoc B: Hmm . It 's gonna be fun to see how we , compare at this . Very exciting . s @ @ .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: How did we do on the TI - digits ?
Grad F: Well the prosodics are so much different s it 's gonna be , strange . I mean the prosodics are not the same as TI - digits , for example .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: So I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how much of effect that will have .
PhD D: H how do {disfmarker}
PhD G: What do you mean , the prosodics ?
Grad F: Um , just what we were talking about with grouping . That with these , the grouping , there 's no grouping at all , and so it 's just {disfmarker} the only sort of discontinuity you have is at the beginning and the end .
PhD G: So what are they doing in Aurora , are they reading actual phone numbers ,
Grad F: Aurora I don't know . I don't know what they do in Aurora .
PhD G: or , a {disfmarker} a digit at a time , or {disfmarker} ?
Professor C: Uh , I 'm not sure how {disfmarker}
PhD G: Cuz it 's {disfmarker}
Professor C: no , no I mean it 's connected {disfmarker} it 's connected , uh , digits ,
PhD G: Connected .
Professor C: yeah . But .
Grad F: But {disfmarker} Right .
PhD G: So there 's also the {disfmarker} not just the prosody but the cross {disfmarker} the cross - word modeling is probably quite different .
PhD D: H How
Grad F: But in TI - digits , they 're reading things like zip codes and phone numbers and things like that ,
PhD G: Right .
PhD D: do we do on TI - digits ?
Grad F: so it 's gonna be different . I don't remember . I mean , very good , right ?
Professor C: Yeah , I mean we were in the .
Grad F: One and a half percent , two percent , something like that ?
Professor C: Uh , I th no I think we got under a percent , but it was {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} but I mean . The very best system that I saw in the literature was a point two five percent or something that somebody had at {disfmarker} at Bell Labs , or . Uh , but . But , uh , sort of pulling out all the stops .
Grad F: Oh really ?
Postdoc B: s @ @ . It s strikes me that there are more {disfmarker} each of them is more informative because it 's so , random ,
Grad F: OK . Alright .
PhD D: Hmm .
Professor C: But I think a lot of systems sort of get half a percent , or three - quarters a percent ,
Grad F: Right .
Professor C: and we 're {disfmarker} we 're in there somewhere .
Grad F: But that {disfmarker} I mean it 's really {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's close - talking mikes , no noise , clean signal , just digits , I mean , every everything is good .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD G: It 's the beginning of time in speech recognition .
Grad F: Yes , exactly .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: And we 've only recently got it to anywhere near human .
PhD G: It 's like the , single cell , you know , it 's the beginning of life ,
PhD D: Pre - prehistory .
PhD G: yeah .
Grad F: And it 's still like an order of magnitude worse than what humans do .
PhD G: Right .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: So .
Professor C: When {disfmarker} When they 're wide awake , yeah . Um ,
Grad F: Yeah . After coffee .
Professor C: after coffee , you 're right . Not after lunch .
Grad F: OK , so , um , what I 'll do then is I 'll go ahead and enter , this data . And then , hand off to Jane , and the transcribers to do the actual extraction of the digits .
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah . One question I have that {disfmarker} that I mean , we wouldn't know the answer to now but might , do some guessing , but I was talking before about doing some model modeling of arti uh , uh , marking of articulatory , features , with overlap and so on .
Grad F: Hmm .
Professor C: And , and , um , On some subset . One thought might be to do this uh , on {disfmarker} on the digits , or some piece of the digits . Uh , it 'd be easier , uh , and so forth . The only thing is I 'm a little concerned that maybe the kind of phenomena , in w i i The reason for doing it is because the {disfmarker} the argument is that certainly with conversational speech , the stuff that we 've looked at here before , um , just doing the simple mapping , from , um , the phone , to the corresponding features that you could look up in a book , uh , isn't right . It isn't actually right . In fact there 's these overlapping processes where some voicing some up and then some , you know , some nasality is {disfmarker} comes in here , and so forth . And you do this gross thing saying " Well I guess it 's this phone starting there " . So , uh , that 's the reasoning . But , It could be that when we 're reading digits , because it 's {disfmarker} it 's for such a limited set , that maybe {disfmarker} maybe that phenomenon doesn't occur as much . I don't know . Di - an anybody {disfmarker} ? {pause} Do you have any {disfmarker} ? {pause} Anybody have any opinion about that ,
Postdoc B: and that people might articulate more , and you that might end up with more {disfmarker} a closer correspondence .
Professor C: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I agree .
PhD D: Sort of less predictability ,
Grad F: That {disfmarker} it 's just {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: and {disfmarker} You hafta {disfmarker}
Grad F: It 's a {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Would , this corpus really be the right one to even try that on ?
PhD G: Well it 's definitely true that , when people are , reading , even if they 're re - reading what , they had said spontaneously , that they have very different patterns . Mitch showed that , and some , dissertations have shown that .
Professor C: Right .
PhD G: So the fact that they 're reading , first of all , whether they 're reading in a room of , people , or rea you know , just the fact that they 're reading will make a difference .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD G: And , depends what you 're interested in .
Professor C: See , I don't know . So , may maybe the thing will be do {disfmarker} to take some very small subset , I mean not have a big , program , but take a small set , uh , subset of the conversational speech and a small subset of the digits , and {pause} look and {disfmarker} and just get a feeling for it . Um , just take a look . Really .
Postdoc B: H That could {disfmarker} could be an interesting design , too , cuz then you 'd have the com the comparison of the , uh , predictable speech versus the less predictable speech
Professor C: Cuz I don't think anybody is , I at least , I don't know , of anybody , uh , well , I don't know , {vocalsound} the answers .
PhD D: Hey .
Professor C: Yeah .
Postdoc B: and maybe you 'd find that it worked in , in the , case of the pr of the , uh , non - predictable .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: Hafta think about , the particular acoustic features to mark , too , because , I mean , some things , they wouldn't be able to mark , like , uh , you know , uh , tense lax .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Some things are really difficult . You know ,
Postdoc B: Well .
PhD D: just listening .
Grad F: M I think we can get Ohala in to , give us some advice on that .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Also I thought you were thinking of a much more restricted set of features , that {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah , but I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was , like he said , {vocalsound} I was gonna bring John in and ask John what he thought .
Postdoc B: Yeah , sure . Sure . Yeah .
Professor C: Right . But I mean you want {disfmarker} you want it be restrictive but you also want it to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to have coverage .
Grad F: Right .
Postdoc B: Yeah
Professor C: You know i you should . It should be such that if you , if you , uh , if you had o um , all of the features , determined that you {disfmarker} that you were uh ch have chosen , that that would tell you , uh , in the steady - state case , uh , the phone . So , um .
Postdoc B: OK .
Grad F: Even , I guess with vowels that would be pretty hard , wouldn't it ? To identify actually , you know , which one it is ?
Postdoc B: It would seem to me that the points of articulation would be m more , g uh , I mean that 's {disfmarker} I think about articulatory features , I think about , points of articulation , which means , uh , rather than vowels .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD D: Points of articulation ? What do you mean ?
Postdoc B: So , is it , uh , bilabial or dental or is it , you know , palatal .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc B: Which {disfmarker} which are all like where {disfmarker} where your tongue comes to rest .
Professor C: Place , place .
PhD D: Place of ar place of articulation .
Grad F: Uvular .
PhD A: Place .
Postdoc B: Place . Thank you , what {disfmarker} whatev whatever I s said , that 's {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: OK .
Postdoc B: I really meant place .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: OK , I see .
Professor C: Yeah . OK we got our jargon then , OK .
Postdoc B: Yeah .
Professor C: Uh .
PhD G: Well it 's also , there 's , really a difference between , the pronunciation models in the dictionary , and , the pronunciations that people produce . And , so , You get , some of that information from Steve 's work on the {disfmarker} on the labeling
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: Right .
PhD G: and it really , I actually think that data should be used more . That maybe , although I think the meeting context is great , that he has transcriptions that give you the actual phone sequence . And you can go from {disfmarker} not from that to the articulatory features , but that would be a better starting point for marking , the gestural features , then , data where you don't have that , because , we {disfmarker} you wanna know , both about the way that they 're producing a certain sound , and what kinds of , you know what kinds of , phonemic , differences you get between these , transcribed , sequences and the dictionary ones .
Professor C: Well you might be right that mi might be the way at getting at , what I was talking about , but the particular reason why I was interested in doing that was because I remember , when that happened , and , John Ohala was over here and he was looking at the spectrograms of the more difficult ones . Uh , he didn't know what to say , about , what is the sequence of phones there . They came up with some compromise . Because that really wasn't what it look like . It didn't look like a sequence of phones
Grad F: Right .
PhD G: Right .
Professor C: it look like this blending thing happening here and here and here .
Grad F: Yeah , so you have this feature here , and , overlap , yeah .
PhD G: Right .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: There was no name for that .
PhD G: But {disfmarker} Right .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD G: But it still is {disfmarker} there 's a {disfmarker} there are two steps . One {disfmarker} you know , one is going from a dictionary pronunciation of something , like , " gonna see you tomorrow " ,
Grad F: And {disfmarker} Or " gonta " .
Professor C: Right . Yeah .
PhD G: it could be " going to " or " gonna " or " gonta s " you know .
Professor C: Right .
PhD G: And , yeah . " Gonna see you tomorrow " , uh , " guh see you tomorrow " . And , that it would be nice to have these , intermediate , or these {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} these reduced pronunciations that those transcribers had marked or to have people mark those as well .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Because , it 's not , um , that easy to go from the , dictionary , word pronuncia the dictionary phone pronunciation , to the gestural one without this intermediate or a syllable level kind of , representation .
Grad F: Well I don't think Morgan 's suggesting that we do that , though .
Professor C: Do you mean ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah , I mean , I I I 'm jus at the moment of course we 're just talking about what , to provide as a tool for people to do research who have different ideas about how to do it . So for instance , you might have someone who just has a wor has words with states , and has uh {disfmarker} uh , comes from articulatory gestures to that . And someone else , might actually want some phonetic uh intermediate thing . So I think it would be {disfmarker} be best to have all of it if we could . But {pause} um ,
Grad F: But {disfmarker} What I 'm imagining is a score - like notation , where each line is a particular feature .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: Right ,
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: so you would say , you know , it 's voiced through here , and so you have label here , and you have nas nasal here , and , they {disfmarker} they could be overlapping in all sorts of bizarre ways that don't correspond to the timing on phones .
Professor C: I mean this is the kind of reason why {disfmarker} I remember when at one of the Switchboard , workshops , that uh when we talked about doing the transcription project , Dave Talkin said , " can't be done " .
Grad F: Right .
Professor C: He was {disfmarker} he was , what {disfmarker} what he meant was that this isn't , you know , a sequence of phones , and when you actually look at Switchboard that 's , not what you see , and , you know . And . It ,
Grad F: And in {disfmarker} in fact the inter - annotator agreement was not that good , right ? On the harder ones ?
Professor C: yeah I mean it was
PhD G: It depends how you look at it , and I {disfmarker} I understand what you 're saying about this , kind of transcription exactly ,
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD G: because I 've seen {disfmarker} you know , where does the voicing bar start and so forth .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD G: All I 'm saying is that , it is useful to have that {disfmarker} the transcription of what was really said , and which syllables were reduced . Uh , if you 're gonna add the features it 's also useful to have some level of representation which is , is a reduced {disfmarker} it 's a pronunciation variant , that currently the dictionaries don't give you
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: because if you add them to the dictionary and you run recognition , you , you add confusion .
Professor C: Right . Right .
PhD G: So people purposely don't add them . So it 's useful to know which variant was {disfmarker} was produced , at least at the phone level .
PhD D: So it would be {disfmarker} it would be great if we had , either these kind of , labelings on , the same portion of Switchboard that Steve marked , or , Steve 's type markings on this data , with these .
PhD G: Right . That 's all , I mean . Exactly .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD G: Exactly .
Professor C: Yeah , no I {disfmarker} I don't disagree with that .
PhD G: And Steve 's type is fairly {disfmarker} it 's not that slow , uh , uh , I dunno exactly what the , timing was , but .
Professor C: Yeah u I don't disagree with it the on the only thing is that , What you actually will end {disfmarker} en end up with is something , i it 's all compromised , right , so , the string that you end up with isn't , actually , what happened . But it 's {disfmarker} it 's the best compromise that a group of people scratching their heads could come up with to describe what happened .
PhD D: And it 's more accurate than , phone labels .
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: But . And it 's more accurate than the {disfmarker} than the dictionary or , if you 've got a pronunciation uh lexicon that has three or four ,
Grad F: The word .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: this might be have been the fifth one that you tr that you pruned or whatever ,
PhD D: So it 's like a continuum .
PhD G: Right .
Professor C: so sure .
PhD D: It 's {disfmarker} you 're going all the way down ,
PhD G: Right . Right .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: yeah .
PhD G: That 's what I meant is {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD G: an and in some places it would fill in , So {disfmarker} the kinds of gestural features are not everywhere .
Grad F: Well {disfmarker}
PhD D: Right .
PhD G: So there are some things that you don't have access to either from your ear or the spectrogram ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: but you know what phone it was and that 's about all you can {disfmarker} all you can say .
PhD D: Right .
PhD G: And then there are other cases where , nasality , voicing {disfmarker}
PhD D: It 's basically just having , multiple levels of {disfmarker} of , information and marking , on the signal .
PhD G: Right . Right .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: Well the other difference is that the {disfmarker} the features , are not synchronous ,
PhD G: Right .
Grad F: right . They overlap each other in weird ways .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad F: So it 's not a strictly one - dimensional signal .
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: So I think that 's sorta qualitatively different .
PhD G: Right . You can add the features in , uh , but it 'll be underspecified .
Postdoc B: Hmm .
PhD G: Th - there 'll be no way for you to actually mark what was said completely by features .
Grad F: Well not with our current system but you could imagine designing a system , that the states were features , rather than phones .
PhD G: And i if you 're {disfmarker} Well , we {disfmarker} we 've probably have a {vocalsound} separate , um , discussion of , uh {disfmarker} of whether you can do that .
Postdoc B: That 's {disfmarker} Well , {pause} isn't that {disfmarker} I thought that was , well but that {disfmarker} wasn't that kinda the direction ?
Grad F: Yeah .
Postdoc B: I thought
Professor C: Yeah , so I mean , what , what {disfmarker} where this is , I mean , I I want would like to have something that 's useful to people other than those who are doing the specific kind of research I have in mind , so it should be something broader . But , The {disfmarker} but uh where I 'm coming from is , uh , we 're coming off of stuff that Larry Saul did with {disfmarker} with , um , uh , John Dalan and Muzim Rahim in which , uh , they , uh , have , um , a m a multi - band system that is , uh , trained through a combination of gradient learning an and EM , to {pause} um , estimate , uh , {vocalsound} the , uh , value for m for {disfmarker} for a particular feature . OK . And this is part of a larger , image that John Dalan has about how the human brain does it in which he 's sort of imagining that , individual frequency channels are coming up with their own estimate , of {disfmarker} of these , these kinds of {disfmarker} something like this . Might not be , you know , exact features that , Jakobson thought of or something . But I mean you know some , something like that . Some kind of low - level features , which are not , fully , you know , phone classification . And the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} th this particular image , of how thi how it 's done , is that , then given all of these estimates at that level , there 's a level above it , then which is {disfmarker} is making , some kind of sound unit classification such as , you know , phone and {disfmarker} and , you know . You could argue what , what a sound unit should be , and {disfmarker} and so forth . But that {disfmarker} that 's sort of what I was imagining doing , um , and {disfmarker} but it 's still open within that whether you would have an intermediate level in which it was actually phones , or not . You wouldn't necessarily have to . Um , but , Again , I wouldn't wanna , wouldn't want what we {disfmarker} we produced to be so , know , local in perspective that it {disfmarker} it was matched , what we were thinking of doing one week , And {disfmarker} and , and , you know , what you 're saying is absolutely right . That , that if we , can we should put in , uh , another level of , of description there if we 're gonna get into some of this low - level stuff .
PhD D: Well , you know , um {disfmarker} I mean if we 're talking about , having the , annotators annotate these kinds of features , it seems like , You know , you {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the question is , do they do that on , meeting data ? Or do they do that on , Switchboard ?
Grad F: That 's what I was saying ,
Postdoc B: W Well it seems like you could do both .
Grad F: maybe meeting data isn't the right corpus .
Postdoc B: I mean , I was thinking that it would be interesting , to do it with respect to , parts of Switchboard anyway , in terms of ,
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc B: uh {disfmarker} partly to see , if you could , generate first guesses at what the articulatory feature would be , based on the phone representation at that lower level .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc B: It might be a time gain . But also in terms of comparability of , um ,
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Well cuz the yeah , and then also , if you did it on Switchboard , you would have , the full continuum of transcriptions .
Postdoc B: what you gain Yep .
PhD D: You 'd have it , from the lowest level , the ac acoustic features , then you 'd have the , you know , the phonetic level that Steve did ,
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Yeah that {disfmarker} that 's all I was thinking about .
Postdoc B: And you could tell that {disfmarker}
PhD D: and , yeah .
PhD G: it is telephone band , so , the bandwidth might be {disfmarker}
PhD D: It 'd be a complete , set then .
Postdoc B: And you get the relative gain up ahead .
Professor C: It 's so it 's a little different . So I mean i we 'll see wha how much we can , uh , get the people to do , and how much money we 'll have and all this sort of thing ,
PhD G: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD D: But it {disfmarker} it might be good to do what Jane was saying uh , you know , seed it , with , guesses about what we think the features are , based on , you know , the phone or Steve 's transcriptions or something . to make it quicker .
Professor C: but , Might be do both .
Grad F: Alright , so based on the phone transcripts they would all be synchronous , but then you could imagine , nudging them here and there .
PhD D: Adjusting ? Yeah , exactly .
Postdoc B: Yeah .
PhD D: Scoot the voicing over a little , because {disfmarker}
Grad F: Right .
Professor C: Well I think what {disfmarker} I mean I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm a l little behind in what they 're doing , now , and , uh , the stuff they 're doing on Switchboard now . But I think that , Steve and the gang are doing , something with an automatic system first and then doing some adjustment . As I re as I recall . So I mean that 's probably the right way to go anyway , is to {disfmarker} is to start off with an automatic system with a pretty rich pronunciation dictionary that , that , um , you know , tries , to label it all . And then , people go through and fix it .
Postdoc B: So in {disfmarker} in our case you 'd think about us s starting with maybe the regular dictionary entry , and then ? Or {pause} would we {disfmarker}
Professor C: Well , regular dictionary , I mean , this is a pretty rich dictionary . It 's got , got a fair number of pronunciations in it
Postdoc B: But {disfmarker}
PhD D: Or you could start from the {disfmarker} if we were gonna , do the same set , of sentences that Steve had , done , we could start with those transcriptions .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm . So I was thinking {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD G: That 's actually what I was thinking , is tha {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad F: Right .
PhD G: the problem is when you run , uh , if you run a regular dictionary , um , even if you have variants , in there , which most people don't , you don't always get , out , the actual pronunciations ,
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD G: so that 's why the human transcriber 's giving you the {disfmarker} that pronunciation ,
Postdoc B: Yeah . Oh .
Professor C: Actually maybe they 're using phone recognizers .
PhD G: and so y they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} I thought that they were {disfmarker}
Professor C: Is that what they 're doing ?
Grad F: They are .
Professor C: Oh , OK .
PhD G: we should catch up on what Steve is ,
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD G: uh {disfmarker} I think that would be a good i good idea .
Professor C: Yeah , so I think that i i we also don't have , I mean , we 've got a good start on it , but we don't have a really good , meeting , recorder or recognizer or transcriber or anything yet , so . So , I mean another way to look at this is to , is to , uh , do some stuff on Switchboard which has all this other , stuff to it .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor C: And then , um , As we get , further down the road and we can do more things ahead of time , we can , do some of the same things to the meeting data .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc B: OK .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc B: And I 'm {disfmarker} and these people might {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they are , s most of them are trained with IPA .
Professor C: Yeah
Postdoc B: They 'd be able to do phonetic - level coding , or articulatory .
PhD D: Are they busy for the next couple years , or {disfmarker} ?
Postdoc B: Well , you know , I mean they , they {disfmarker} they 're interested in continuing working with us , so {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} I , and this would be up their alley , so , we could {disfmarker} when the {disfmarker} when you d meet with , with John Ohala and find , you know what taxonomy you want to apply , then , they 'd be , good to train onto it .
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah . Anyway , this is , not an urgent thing at all ,
Postdoc B: Yeah .
Professor C: just it came up .
PhD D: It 'd be very interesting though , to have {pause} that data .
Postdoc B: I think so , too .
Grad F: I wonder , how would you do a forced alignment ?
PhD G: Yeah . Might {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: Interesting idea .
Grad F: To {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} I mean , you 'd wanna iterate , somehow . Yeah . It 's interesting thing to think about .
PhD D: Hmm .
PhD G: It might be {disfmarker}
Grad F: I mean you 'd {disfmarker} you 'd want models for spreading .
PhD G: I was thinking it might be n
PhD D: Of the f acoustic features ?
Grad F: Yeah .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD G: Well it might be neat to do some , phonetic , features on these , nonword words . Are {disfmarker} are these kinds of words that people never {disfmarker} the " huh "s and the " hmm "s and the " huh " {vocalsound} and the uh {disfmarker} These k No , I 'm serious . There are all these kinds of {pause} functional , uh , elements . I don't know what you call {pause} them . But not just fill pauses but all kinds of ways of {pause} interrupting {comment} and so forth .
Grad F: Uh - huh .
PhD G: And some of them are , {vocalsound} yeah , " uh - huh "s , and " hmm "s , and , " hmm ! " " hmm " {comment} " OK " , " uh " {comment} Grunts , uh , that might be interesting .
Postdoc B: He 's got lip {disfmarker} {pause} lipsmacks .
PhD G: In the meetings .
Professor C: We should move on .
Postdoc B: Yeah .
Professor C: Uh , new version of , uh , presegmentation ?
PhD A: Uh , oh yeah , um , {vocalsound} I worked a little bit on the {disfmarker} on the presegmentation to {disfmarker} to get another version which does channel - specific , uh , speech - nonspeech detection . And , what I did is I used some normalized features which , uh , look in into the {disfmarker} which is normalized energy , uh , energy normalized by the mean over the channels and by the , minimum over the , other . within each channel . And to {disfmarker} to , mm , to , yeah , to normalize also loudness and {disfmarker} and modified loudness and things and that those special features actually are in my feature vector .
Grad F: Oh .
PhD A: And , and , therefore to be able to , uh , somewhat distinguish between foreground and background speech in {disfmarker} in the different {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} each channel . And , eh , I tested it on {disfmarker} on three or four meetings and it seems to work , well yeah , fairly well , I {disfmarker} I would say . There are some problems with the lapel mike .
Grad F: Of course .
PhD A: Yeah . Uh , yeah .
Grad F: Wow that 's great .
PhD A: And .
Grad F: So I {disfmarker} I understand that 's what you were saying about your problem with , minimum .
PhD A: Yeah . And . Yeah , and {disfmarker} and I had {disfmarker} I had , uh , specific problems with .
Grad F: I get it . So new use ninetieth quartile , rather than , minimum .
PhD A: Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc B: Wow .
PhD A: Yeah {disfmarker} yeah , then {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I did some {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some things like that ,
Postdoc B: Interesting .
PhD A: as there {disfmarker} there are some {disfmarker} some problems in , when , in the channel , there {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} the the speaker doesn't {disfmarker} doesn't talk much or doesn't talk at all . Then , the , yeah , there are {disfmarker} there are some problems with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with n with normalization , and , then , uh , there the system doesn't work at all . So , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm glad that there is the {disfmarker} the digit part , where everybody is forced to say something ,
Professor C: Right .
PhD A: so , that 's {disfmarker} that 's great for {disfmarker} for my purpose . And , the thing is I {disfmarker} I , then the evaluation of {disfmarker} of the system is a little bit hard , as I don't have any references .
Grad F: Well we did the hand {disfmarker} the one by hand .
PhD A: Yeah , that 's the one {disfmarker} one wh where I do the training on so I can't do the evaluation on So the thing is , can the transcribers perhaps do some , some {disfmarker} some meetings in {disfmarker} in terms of speech - nonspeech in {disfmarker} in the specific channels ?
Grad F: Uh .
Postdoc B: Well , I have {disfmarker}
PhD D: Well won't you have that from their transcriptions ?
Postdoc B: Well , OK , so , now we need {disfmarker}
Grad F: No , cuz we need is really tight .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc B: so , um , I think I might have done what you 're requesting , though I did it in the service of a different thing .
PhD A: Oh , great .
Postdoc B: I have thirty minutes that I 've more tightly transcribed with reference to individual channels .
PhD A: OK . OK , that 's great . That 's great for me . Yeah , so .
Postdoc B: And I could {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}
Grad F: Hopefully that 's not the same meeting that we did .
Postdoc B: No , actually it 's a different meeting .
Grad F: Good .
PhD A: OK .
Postdoc B: So , um , e so the , you know , we have the , th they transcribe as if it 's one channel with these {disfmarker} with the slashes to separate the overlapping parts .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc B: And then we run it through {disfmarker} then it {disfmarker} then I 'm gonna edit it and I 'm gonna run it through channelize which takes it into Dave Gelbart 's form format .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc B: And then you have , all these things split across according to channel , and then that means that , if a person contributed more than once in a given , overlap during that time bend that {disfmarker} that two parts of the utterance end up together , it 's the same channel ,
PhD A: OK .
Postdoc B: and then I took his tool , and last night for the first thirty minutes of one of these transcripts , I , tightened up the , um , boundaries on individual speakers ' channels ,
PhD A: OK . Yeah .
Postdoc B: cuz his {disfmarker} his interface allows me to have total flexibility in the time tags across the channels .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc B: And {pause} um , so .
PhD A: so , yeah {disfmarker} yeah , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's great , but what would be nice to have some more meetings , not just one meeting to {disfmarker} to be sure that {disfmarker} that , there is a system ,
PhD D: So , current {disfmarker} This week .
Postdoc B: Yes . Might not be what you need .
Grad F: Yeah , so if we could get a couple meetings done with that level of precision I think that would be a good idea .
PhD A: OK . Yeah .
Postdoc B: Oh , OK . Uh , how {disfmarker} how m much time {disfmarker} so the meetings vary in length , what are we talking about in terms of the number of minutes you 'd like to have as your {disfmarker} as your training set ?
PhD A: It seems to me that it would be good to have , a few minutes from {disfmarker} from different meetings , so . But I 'm not sure about how much .
Postdoc B: OK , now you 're saying different meetings because of different speakers or because of different audio quality or both or {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: Both {disfmarker} both . Different {disfmarker} different number of speakers , different speakers , different {pause} conditions .
Postdoc B: OK .
Professor C: Yeah , we don't have that much variety in meetings yet , uh , I mean we have this meeting and the feature meeting and we have a couple others that we have uh , couple examples of . But {disfmarker} but , uh ,
PhD A: Yeah , m Yeah .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Even probably with the gains {pause} differently will affect it , you mean {disfmarker}
PhD A: Uh , not really as {disfmarker}
Professor C: Poten - potentially .
PhD A: uh , because of the normalization , yeah .
Grad E: Oh , cuz you use the normalization ? OK .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor C: Oh , OK .
PhD G: We can try running {disfmarker} we haven't done this yet because , um , uh , Andreas an is {disfmarker} is gonna move over the SRI recognizer . i basically I ran out of machines at SRI ,
PhD A: OK .
PhD G: cuz we 're running the evals and I just don't have machine time there . But , once that 's moved over , uh , hopefully in a {disfmarker} a couple days , then , we can take , um , what Jane just told us about as , the presegmented , {vocalsound} {nonvocalsound} the {disfmarker} the segmentations that you did , at level eight or som {comment} at some , threshold that Jane , tha {pause} right , and try doing , forced alignment . um , on the word strings .
Grad F: Oh , shoot !
PhD A: Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc B: The pre presegment
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc B: yeah .
PhD A: With the recognizer ? Yeah .
PhD G: And if it 's good , then that will {disfmarker} that may give you a good boundary . Of course if it 's good , we don't {disfmarker} then we 're {disfmarker} we 're fine ,
PhD A: Yeah . M
PhD G: but , I don't know yet whether these , segments that contain a lot of pauses around the words , will work or not .
PhD A: I {disfmarker} I would quite like to have some manually transcribed references for {disfmarker} for the system , as I 'm not sure if {disfmarker} if it 's really good to compare with {disfmarker} with some other automatic , found boundaries .
PhD G: Yeah . Right .
Postdoc B: Well , no , if we were to start with this and then tweak it h manually , would that {disfmarker} that would be OK ?
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD G: Right .
PhD A: Yeah {pause} sure .
PhD G: They might be OK .
Postdoc B: OK .
PhD G: It {disfmarker} you know it really depends on a lot of things ,
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD G: but , I would have maybe a transciber , uh , look at the result of a forced alignment and then adjust those .
PhD A: Yeah . To a adjust them , or , yeah . Yeah , yeah .
PhD G: That might save some time .
PhD A: Yeah , great .
PhD G: If they 're horrible it won't help at all , but they might not be horrible .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD G: So {disfmarker} but I 'll let you know when we , uh , have that .
PhD A: OK , great .
Postdoc B: How many minutes would you want from {disfmarker} I mean , we could {pause} easily , get a section , you know , like say a minute or so , from every meeting that we have so f from the newer ones that we 're working on , everyone that we have . And then , should provide this .
PhD A: If it 's not the first minute of {disfmarker} of the meeting , that {disfmarker} that 's OK with me , but , in {disfmarker} in the first minute , uh , Often there are some {disfmarker} some strange things going on which {disfmarker} which aren't really , well , for , which {disfmarker} which aren't re re really good . So . What {disfmarker} what I 'd quite like , perhaps , is , to have , some five minutes of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of different meetings , so .
Postdoc B: Somewhere not in the very beginning , five minutes , OK .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc B: And , then I wanted to ask you just for my inter information , then , would you , be trai cuz I don't quite unders so , would you be training then , um , the segmenter so that , it could , on the basis of that , segment the rest of the meeting ? So , if I give you like {pause} five minutes is the idea that this would then be applied to , uh , to , providing tighter time {pause} bands ?
PhD A: I {disfmarker} I could do a {disfmarker} a retraining with that , yeah .
Postdoc B: Wow , interesting .
PhD A: That 's {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but I hope that I {disfmarker} I don't need to do it .
Postdoc B: OK .
PhD A: So , uh it c can be do in an unsupervised way .
Postdoc B: Uh - huh .
PhD A: So .
Postdoc B: Excellent . Excellent , OK .
PhD A: I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm not sure , but , for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for those three meetings whi which I {disfmarker} which I did , it seems to be , quite well , but , there are some {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} as I said some problems with the lapel mike , but , perhaps we can do something with {disfmarker} with cross - correlations to , to get rid of the {disfmarker} of those . And . Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} that 's what I {disfmarker} that 's my {pause} future work . Well {disfmarker} well what I want to do is to {disfmarker} to look into cross - correlations for {disfmarker} for removing those , false overlaps .
Postdoc B: Wonderful .
PhD G: Are the , um , wireless , different than the wired , mikes , at all ? I mean , have you noticed any difference ?
PhD A: I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm not sure , um , if {disfmarker} if there are any wired mikes in those meetings , or , uh , I have {disfmarker} have to loo have a look at them but , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I think there 's no difference between ,
PhD G: So it 's just the lapel versus everything else ?
PhD A: Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc B: OK , so then , if that 's five minutes per meeting we 've got like twelve minutes , twelve meetings , roughly , that I 'm {disfmarker} that I 've been working with , then {disfmarker}
Professor C: Of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of the meetings that you 're working with , how many of them are different , tha
PhD A: No .
Professor C: are there any of them that are different than , these two meetings ?
Postdoc B: Well {disfmarker} oh wa in terms of the speakers or the conditions or the ?
Professor C: Yeah , speakers . Sorry .
PhD A: Yeah , that {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: Um , we have different combinations of speakers .
Professor C: So .
Postdoc B: I mean , just from what I 've seen , uh , there are some where , um , you 're present or not present , and , then {disfmarker} then you have the difference between the networks group and this group
PhD A: Yeah , I know , some of the NSA meetings , yeah .
Professor C: Yeah . So I didn't know in the group you had if you had {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor C: so you have the networks meeting ?
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Yep , we do .
Professor C: Do you have any of Jerry 's meetings in your , pack , er ,
Postdoc B: Um , no .
Professor C: No ?
Postdoc B: We could , I mean you {disfmarker} you recorded one last week or so . I could get that new one in this week {disfmarker} I get that new one in .
Grad F: Yep . u
PhD G: We 're gonna be recording them every {pause} Monday ,
Professor C: Yeah . Cuz I think he really needs variety ,
PhD G: so {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Great .
Professor C: and {disfmarker} and having as much variety for speaker certainly would be a big part of that I think .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc B: OK , so if I , OK , included {disfmarker} include , OK , then , uh , if I were to include all together samples from twelve meetings that would only take an hour and I could get the transcribers to do that right {disfmarker} I mean , what I mean is , that would be an hour sampled , and then they 'd transcribe those {disfmarker} that hour , right ? That 's what I should do ?
Professor C: Yeah . And .
PhD A: That 's {disfmarker} that 's .
Postdoc B: I don't mean transcribe
Professor C: Right . Ye - But you 're {disfmarker} y
Postdoc B: I mean {disfmarker} I mean adjust . So they get it into the multi - channel format and then adjust the timebands so it 's precise .
Professor C: So that should be faster than the ten times kind of thing ,
Postdoc B: Absolutely . I did {disfmarker} I did , um , uh , so , last night I did , uh ,
Professor C: yeah .
Postdoc B: Oh gosh , well , last night , I did about half an hour in , three hours , which is not , terrific ,
Professor C: Yeah .
Postdoc B: but , um , anyway , it 's an hour and a half per {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah . Well , that 's probably .
PhD A: So .
Postdoc B: Well , I can't calculate on my , {vocalsound} on my feet .
PhD A: Do the transcribers actually start wi with , uh , transcribing new meetings , or {pause} are they ?
Postdoc B: Well , um they 're still working {disfmarker} they still have enough to finish that I haven't assigned a new meeting ,
PhD A: OK .
Postdoc B: but the next , m m I was about to need to assign a new meeting and I was going to take it from one of the new ones ,
PhD A: OK .
Postdoc B: and I could easily give them Jerry Feldman 's meeting , no problem . And , then {disfmarker}
PhD A: OK .
PhD G: So they 're really running out of , data , prett I mean that 's good .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm . Uh , that first set .
PhD G: Um , OK .
Professor C: They 're running out of data unless we s make the decision that we should go over and start , uh , transcribing the other set .
PhD G: So {disfmarker}
Professor C: There {disfmarker} the first {disfmarker} the first half .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc B: And so I was in the process of like editing them but this is wonderful news .
PhD A: OK .
Professor C: Alright .
Postdoc B: We funded the experiment with , uh {disfmarker} also we were thinking maybe applying that that to getting the , Yeah , that 'll be , very useful to getting the overlaps to be more precise all the way through .
Professor C: So this , blends nicely into the update on transcripts .
Postdoc B: Yes , it does . So , um , {comment} um , Liz , and {disfmarker} and Don , and I met this morning , in the BARCO room , with the lecture hall ,
Professor C: OK .
PhD G: Yeah , please . Go ahead . And this afternoon .
Postdoc B: and this afternoon , it drifted into the afternoon , {comment} {vocalsound} uh , concerning this issue of , um , the , well there 's basically the issue of the interplay between the transcript format and the processing that , they need to do for , the SRI recognizer . And , um , well , so , I mentioned the process that I 'm going through with the data , so , you know , I get the data back from the transcri Well , s uh , metaphorically , get the data back from the transcriber , and then I , check for simple things like spelling errors and things like that . And , um , I 'm going to be doing a more thorough editing , with respect to consistency of the conventions . But they 're {disfmarker} they 're generally very good . And , then , I run it through , uh , the channelize program to get it into the multi - channel format , OK . And {pause} the , what we discussed this morning , I would summarize as saying that , um , these units that result , in a {disfmarker} a particular channel and a particular timeband , at {disfmarker} at that level , um , vary in length . And , um , {nonvocalsound} their recognizer would prefer that the units not be overly long . But it 's really an empirical question , whether the units we get at this point through , just that process I described might be sufficient for them . So , as a first pass through , a first chance without having to do a lot of hand - editing , what we 're gonna do , is , I 'll run it through channelize , give them those data after I 've done the editing process and be sure it 's clean . And I can do that , pretty quickly , with just , that minimal editing , without having to hand - break things .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc B: And then we 'll see if the units that we 're getting , uh , with the {disfmarker} at that level , are sufficient . And maybe they don't need to be further broken down . And if they do need to be further broken down then maybe it just be piece - wise , maybe it won't be the whole thing . So , that 's {disfmarker} that 's what we were discussing , this morning as far as I {disfmarker} Among {disfmarker}
PhD G: Right .
Postdoc B: also we discussed some adaptational things ,
PhD G: Then lots of {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: so it 's like ,
PhD G: Right .
Postdoc B: uh {disfmarker} You know I hadn't , uh , incorporated , a convention explicitly to handle acronyms , for example , but if someone says , PZM it would be nice to have that be directly interpretable from , the transcript what they said ,
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc B: or Pi - uh Tcl {disfmarker} TCL I mean . It 's like y it 's {disfmarker} and so , um , I 've {disfmarker} I 've incorporated also convention , with that but that 's easy to handle at the post editing phase , and I 'll mention it to , transcribers for the next phase but that 's OK . And then , a similar conv uh , convention for numbers . So if they say one - eighty - three versus one eight three . Um , and also I 'll be , um , encoding , as I do my post - editing , the , things that are in curly brackets , which are clarificational material . And eh to incorporate , uh , keyword , at the beginning . So , it 's gonna be either a gloss or it 's gonna be a vocal sound like a , laugh or a cough , or , so forth . Or a non - vocal sound like a doors door - slam , and that can be easily done with a , you know , just a {disfmarker} one little additional thing in the , in the general format .
PhD G: Yeah we j we just needed a way to , strip , you know , all the comments , all the things th the {disfmarker} that linguist wants but the recognizer can't do anything with . Um , but to keep things that we mapped to like reject models , or , you know , uh , mouth noise , or , cough . And then there 's this interesting issue Jane brought up which I hadn't thought about before but I was , realizing as I went through the transcripts , that there are some noises like , um , well the {disfmarker} good example was an inbreath , where a transcriber working from , the mixed , signal , doesn't know whose breath it is ,
Grad F: Right .
PhD G: and they 've been assigning it to someone that may or may not be correct . And what we do is , if it 's a breath sound , you know , a sound from the speaker , we map it , to , a noise model , like a mouth - noise model in the recognizer , and , yeah , it probably doesn't hurt that much once in a while to have these , but , if they 're in the wrong channel , that 's , not a good idea . And then there 's also , things like door - slams that 's really in no one 's channel , they 're like {disfmarker} it 's in the room .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad F: Right .
PhD G: And {pause} uh , Jane had this nice , uh , idea of having , like an extra , uh couple tiers ,
Grad F: An extra channel .
Postdoc B: Yeah . I 've been {disfmarker} I 've been adding that to the ones I 've been editing .
PhD G: yeah . And we were thinking , that is useful also when there 's uncertainties . So if they hear a breath and they don't know who breath it is it 's better to put it in that channel than to put it in the speaker 's channel because maybe it was someone else 's breath , or {disfmarker} Uh , so I think that 's a good {disfmarker} you can always clean that up , post - processing .
Postdoc B: Yeah .
PhD G: So a lot of little details , but I think we 're , coming to some kinda closure , on that . So the idea is then , uh , Don can take , uh , Jane 's post - processed channelized version , and , with some scripts , you know , convert that to {disfmarker} to a reference for the recognizer and we can , can run these . So {pause} when that 's , ready {disfmarker} you know , as soon as that 's ready , and as soon as the recognizer is here we can get , twelve hours of force - aligned and recognized data . And , you know , start , working on it ,
Postdoc B: And {disfmarker}
PhD G: so we 're , I dunno a coup a week or two away I would say from , uh , if {disfmarker} if that process is automatic once we get your post - process , transcript .
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm . And that doesn't {disfmarker} the amount of editing that it would require is not very much either . I 'm just hoping that the units that are provided in that way , {nonvocalsound} will be sufficient cuz I would save a lot of , uh , time , dividing things .
PhD G: Yeah , some of them are quite long . Just from {disfmarker} I dunno how long were {disfmarker} you did one ?
Grad E: I saw a couple , {vocalsound} around twenty seconds , and that was just without looking too hard for it , so , I would imagine that there might be some that are longer .
PhD G: Right .
Postdoc B: Well n One question , e w would that be a single speaker or is that multiple speakers overlapping ?
Grad E: No . No , but if we 're gonna segment it , like if there 's one speaker in there , that says " OK " or something , right in the middle , it 's gonna have a lot of dead time around it ,
PhD G: Right . It 's not the {disfmarker} it 's not the fact that we can't process a twenty second segment , it 's the fact that , there 's twenty seconds in which to place one word in the wrong place
Grad E: so it 's not {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD G: You know , if {disfmarker} if someone has a very short utterance there , and that 's where , we , might wanna have this individual , you know , ha have your pre pre - process input .
PhD A: Yep . Yeah . Sure .
Postdoc B: That 's very important .
PhD A: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I thought that perhaps the transcribers could start then from the {disfmarker} those mult multi - channel , uh , speech - nonspeech detections , if they would like to .
PhD G: And I just don't know , I have to run it .
Postdoc B: In {disfmarker} in doing the hand - marking ?
PhD G: Right .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Yeah that 's what I was thinking , too .
PhD G: Right .
Postdoc B: Yeah .
PhD G: So that 's probably what will happen , but we 'll try it this way and see .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD G: I mean it 's probably good enough for force - alignment . If it 's not then we 're really {disfmarker} then we def definitely
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD G: uh , but for free recognition I 'm {disfmarker} it 'll probably not be good enough . We 'll probably get lots of errors because of the cross - talk , and , noises and things .
PhD A: Yep .
Professor C: Good s I think that 's probably our agenda , or starting up there .
Postdoc B: Oh I wanted to ask one thing , the microphones {disfmarker} the new microphones ,
Professor C: Yeah ? K .
Postdoc B: when do we get , uh ?
Grad F: Uh , they said it would take about a week .
Postdoc B: Oh , exciting . K . K .
Professor C: K .
PhD D: You ordered them already ?
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Great .
PhD G: So what happens to our old microphones ?
Professor C: They go where old microphones go .
Grad F: Um {disfmarker}
PhD G: Do we give them to someone , or {disfmarker} ?
Grad F: Well the only thing we 're gonna have extra , for now ,
PhD G: We don't have more receivers , we just have {disfmarker}
Grad F: Right , we don so the only thing we 'll have extra now is just the lapel .
PhD G: Right .
Grad F: Not {disfmarker} not the , bodypack , just the lapel .
PhD G: Just the lapel itself .
Grad F: Um , and then one of the {disfmarker} one of those . Since , what I decided to do , on Morgan 's suggestion , was just get two , new microphones , um , and try them out . And then , if we like them we 'll get more .
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD G: OK .
Grad F: Since they 're {disfmarker} they 're like two hundred bucks a piece , we won't , uh , at least try them out .
PhD D: So it 's a replacement for this headset mike ?
Grad F: Yep . Yep .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: And they 're gonna do the wiring for us .
PhD D: What 's the , um , style of the headset ?
Grad F: It 's , um , it 's by Crown , and it 's one of these sort of mount around the ear thingies , and , uh , when I s when I mentioned that we thought it was uncomfortable he said it was a common problem with the Sony . And this is how apparently a lot of people are getting around it .
PhD D: Hmm .
Grad F: And I checked on the web , and every site I went to , raved about this particular mike . It 's apparently comfortable and stays on the head well , so we 'll see if it 's any good . But , uh , I think it 's promising .
Postdoc B: You said it was used by aerobics instructors ?
Grad F: Yep . Yep , so it was {disfmarker} it was advertised for performers
Postdoc B: That says a lot .
Grad E: Hmm .
Professor C: For the recor for the record Adam is not a paid employee or a consultant of Crown .
Grad F: and {disfmarker} Excuse me ?
Postdoc B: Oh .
Professor C: I said " For the record Adam is {disfmarker} is not a paid consultant or employee of Crown " .
Grad F: Excuse me ?
PhD G: Right .
Grad F: That 's right .
PhD G: However , he may be solicited after these meetings are distributed .
Grad F: Well we 're using the Crown P Z
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD G: Don't worry about finishing your dissertation .
Grad F: These are Crown aren't they ?
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: The P Z Ms are Crown , aren't they ?
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah , I thought they were .
Professor C: You bet . You bet .
Grad F: And they work very well .
PhD G: Yes .
Professor C: So if we go to a workshop about all this {disfmarker} this it 's gonna be a meeting about meetings about meetings . OK . So .
Grad F: And then it {disfmarker} we have to go to the planning session for that workshop .
Professor C: Oh , yeah , what {disfmarker} Which 'll be the meeting about the meeting about the meeting .
PhD D: Oh , god .
Grad F: Cuz then it would be a meeting about the meeting about the meeting about meetings .
Postdoc B:
Professor C: Yeah ? Just start saying " M four " . Yeah , OK .
Grad F: Yeah . M to the fourth .
Professor C: Should we do the digits ?
Grad F: Yep , go for it .
Professor C: OK .
PhD A: S {pause} s
Grad F: Pause between the lines , remember ?
Grad E: Excuse me .
Grad F: OK .
Professor C: OK .
PhD G: Huh .
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Grad D: And we already got the crash out of the way . It did crash , so I feel much better , earlier .
Professor F: Yeah .
Postdoc E: Interesting . Hmm .
Professor F: Will you get the door , and {disfmarker} ?
Grad D: OK , so um .
Professor F: OK . You collected an agenda , huh ?
Grad D: I did collect an agenda . So I 'm gonna go first . Mwa - ha - ha ! It shouldn't take too long .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Grad D: Um , so we 're pretty much out of digits . We 've gone once through the set . Um , so the only thing I have to do
Professor F: No there 's only ten .
Grad D: Yeah , that 's right . so I {disfmarker} I just have to go through them
Professor F: Well , OK .
Grad D: and uh pick out the ones that have problems , and either correct them or have them re - read . So we probably have like four or five more forms to be read , to be once through the set . I 've also extracted out about an hour 's worth . We have about two hours worth . I extracted out about an hour 's worth which are the f digits with {disfmarker} for which whose speaker have speaker forms , have filled out speaker forms . Not everyone 's filled out a speaker form . So I extracted one for speakers who have speaker forms and for meetings in which the " key " file and the transcript files are parsable . Some of the early key files , it looks like , were done by hand , and so they 're not automatically parsable and I have to go back and fix those . So what that means is we have about an hour of transcribed digits that we can play with . Um , Liz {disfmarker}
Professor F: So you think two {disfmarker} you think two hours is the {disfmarker} is the total that we have ?
Grad D: Yep , yeah .
Professor F: And you think we th uh , I {disfmarker} I didn't quite catch all these different things that are not quite right , but you think we 'll be able to retrieve the other hour , reasonably ?
Grad D: Yes , absolutely .
Professor F: OK .
Grad D: So it 's just a question of a little hand - editing of some files and then waiting for more people to turn in their speaker forms . I have this web - based speaker form , and I sent mail to everyone who hadn't filled out a speaker form , and they 're slowly s trickling in .
Professor F: So the relevance of the speaker form here , s
Grad D: It 's for labeling the extracted audio files .
Professor F: Oh , OK .
Grad D: By speaker ID and microphone type .
Professor F: Wasn't like whether they were giving us permission to use their digits or something .
Grad D: No , I spoke with Jane about that and we sort of decided that it 's probably not an issue that {disfmarker} We edit out any of the errors anyway . Right ? So the there are no errors in the digits ,
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad D: you 'll always read the string correctly . So I can't imagine why anyone would care . So the other topic with digits is uh , Liz would like to elicit different prosodics , and so we tried last week with them written out in English . And it just didn't work at all because no one grouped them together . So it just sounded like many many more lines instead of anything else . So in conversations with Liz and uh Jane we decided that if you wrote them out as numbers instead of words it would elicit more phone number , social security number - like readings . The problem with that is it becomes numbers instead of digits . When I look at this , that first line is " sixty one , sixty two , eighteen , eighty six , ten . " Um , and so the question is does anyone care ? Um , I 've already spoken with Liz and she feels that , correct me if I 'm wrong , that for her , connected numbers is fine ,
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: as opposed to connected digits . Um , I think two hours is probably fine for a test set , but it may be a little short if we actually wanna do training and adaptation and all that other stuff .
Professor F: Yeah Um , do um you want different prosodics , so if you always had the same groupings you wouldn't like that ? Is that correct ?
PhD G: Well , we actually figured out a way to {disfmarker}
Grad D: Yeah , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}
PhD G: the {disfmarker} the groupings are randomly generated .
Professor F: No but , I was asking if that was something you really cared about because if it wasn't , it seems to me if you made it really specifically telephone groupings that maybe people wouldn't , uh , go and do numbers so much . You know if it if it 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD G: I think they may still do it , um ,
Professor F: Maybe some , but I probably not so much .
PhD B: What about putting a hyphen between the numbers in the group ?
PhD G: And {disfmarker}
Professor F: Right ? So if you {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you have uh
Grad D: Six dash one , you mean ?
Professor F: if you go six six six uh dash uh two nine three one .
PhD G: I {disfmarker} well OK {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} it might help , I would like to g get away from having only one specific grouping .
Professor F: That 's what I was asking , yeah .
PhD G: Um , so if that 's your question ,
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: but I mean it seems to me that , at least for us , we can learn to read them as digits
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD G: if that 's what people want . I {disfmarker} I 'm
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD G: don't think that 'd be that hard to read them as single digits .
Postdoc E: I agree .
PhD G: Um , and it seems like that might be better for you guys since then you 'll have just more digit data ,
Grad D: Right .
PhD G: and that 's always a good thing .
Grad D: Yep .
PhD G: It 's a little bit better for me too because the digits are easier to recognize . They 're better trained than the numbers .
Grad D: So we could just , uh , put in the instructions " read them as digits " .
Professor F: Right .
PhD G: Right . Right , read them as single digits , so sixty - one w is read as six one ,
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: and if people make a mistake we {disfmarker}
Grad D: How about " O " versus " zero " ?
Professor F: I mean , the other thing is we could just bag it because it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's - I 'm not worrying about it I mean , because we do have digits training data that we have from uh from OGI . I 'm sorry , digits {disfmarker} numbers training that we have from OGI , we 've done lots and lots of studies with that . And um .
PhD G: But it 's nice to get it in this room with the acous
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: I mean {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}
Professor F: No , no , I guess what I 'm saying is that
Grad D: Just let them read it how they read it .
Professor F: to some extent maybe we could just read them {disfmarker} have them read how {disfmarker} how they read it and it just means that we have to expand our {disfmarker} our vocabulary out to stuff that we already have .
PhD G: Right . Well that 's fine with me as long as {disfmarker} It 's just that I didn't want to cause the people who would have been collecting digits the other way to not have the digits .
Professor F: Yeah . We can go back to the other thing later .
PhD G: So {disfmarker}
Professor F: I mean we s we {disfmarker} we 've {disfmarker} We can do this for awhile
PhD G: OK .
Professor F: and then go back to digits for awhile , or um . Do yo I mean , do you want {disfmarker} do you want this {disfmarker} Do you need training data or adaptation data out of this ?
PhD G: OK .
Professor F: How much of this do you need ? with uh the {disfmarker}
PhD G: It 's actually unclear right now . I just thought well we 're {disfmarker} if we 're collec collecting digits , and Adam had said we were running out of the TI forms , I thought it 'd be nice to have them in groups , and probably , all else being equal , it 'd be better for me to just have single digits
Professor F: OK .
PhD G: since it 's , you know , a recognizer 's gonna do better on those anyway , um , and it 's more predictable . So we can know from the transcript what the person said and the transcriber , in general .
Professor F: OK , well if you pre
PhD G: But if they make mistakes , it 's no big deal if the people say a hundred instead of " one OO " . and also w maybe we can just let them choose " zero " versus " O " as they {disfmarker} as they like because even the same person c sometimes says " O " and sometimes says " zero " in different context ,
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: and that 's sort of interesting . So I don't have a Specific need cuz if I did I 'd probably try to collect it , you know , without bothering this group , but If we can try it {disfmarker}
Grad D: OK so {disfmarker} so I can just add to the instructions to read it as digits not as connected numbers .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Right , and you can give an example like , you know , " six {disfmarker} sixty - one would be read as six one " .
Grad D: Right .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm . And i actually it 's no more artificial than what we 've been doing with words .
PhD G: And I think people will get it .
Postdoc E: I 'm sure people can adapt to this , read it single .
PhD G: Right , right .
Postdoc E: The spaces already bias it toward being separated .
PhD G: It 's just easier to read .
Postdoc E: And I know I 'm gonna find this easier than words .
PhD G: Right .
Grad D: Oh yeah , absolutely , cognitively it 's much easier .
PhD G: OK I also had a hard {disfmarker} hard time with the words ,
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: but then we went back and forth on that . OK , so let 's give that a try
Grad D: OK . And is the spacing alright or do you think there should be more space between digits and groups ?
Professor F: OK .
PhD G: and {disfmarker}
Grad D: Or is that alright ?
PhD G: I mean what do other people think cuz you guys are reading {comment} them .
Postdoc E: I think that i it 's fine .
Grad D: OK .
Postdoc E: I it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} to me it looks like you 've got the func the idea of grouping and you have the grou the idea of separation
PhD G: OK .
Postdoc E: and , you know , it 's just a matter of u i the instructions , that 's all .
PhD G: Great . OK .
Grad D: And I think there are about ten different gouping patterns
Professor F: Let 's try it .
PhD G: Well let 's give it a try .
Grad D: isn't that right , Liz ? That we did .
PhD G: Righ - right , and you just {disfmarker} they 're randomly {nonvocalsound} generated and randomly assigned to digits .
Postdoc E: I did {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .
Professor F: So we have {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Go ahead .
Professor F: Sorry , I {disfmarker} I was just gonna say , so we have in the vicinity of forty hours of {disfmarker} of recordings now . And you 're saying two hours , uh , is digits , so that 's roughly the ratio then ,
Grad D: Yep .
Professor F: something like twenty {disfmarker} twenty to one . Which I guess makes {disfmarker} makes sense . So if we did another forty hours of recordings then we could get another couple hours of this .
Grad D: Right .
Professor F: Um , yeah like you say , I think a couple hours for a {disfmarker} for a {disfmarker} for a test {disfmarker} test set 's OK . It 'd be nice to get , you know , more later because we 'll {disfmarker} we might use {disfmarker} use this up , uh , in some sense ,
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Right .
Professor F: but {disfmarker} but uh {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Yeah , I also would like to argue for that cuz it {disfmarker} it seems to me that , um , there 's a real strength in having the same test replicated in {disfmarker} a whole bunch of times and adding to that basic test bank .
Grad D: Right .
Postdoc E: Hmm ? Cuz then you have , you know , more and more , u chances to get away from random errors . And I think , um , the other thing too is that right now we have sort of a stratified sample with reference to dialect groups , and it might be {disfmarker} there might be an argument to be made for having uh f for replicating all of the digits that we 've done , which were done by non - native speakers so that we have a core that totally replicates the original data set , which is totally American speakers , and then we have these stratified additional language groups overlapping certain aspects of the database .
Grad D: Right . I think that uh trying to duplicate , spending too much effort trying to duplicate the existing TI - digits probably isn't too worthwhile because the recording situation is so different .
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad D: It 's gonna be very hard to be comparable .
Postdoc E: Except that if you have the stimuli {pause} comparable , then it says something about the {disfmarker} the contribution of setting
Professor F: No it 's {disfmarker} it 's not the same .
Postdoc E: and {disfmarker}
Professor F: A little bit , but the other differences are so major .
Grad D: Yeah I mean read versus not .
Postdoc E: OK .
Professor F: They 're such major sources of variance that it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: What 's an example of a {disfmarker} of m some of the other differences ? Any other a difference ?
Professor F: Well i i individual human glottis {vocalsound} is going to be different for each one ,
Postdoc E: OK .
Professor F: you know , it 's just {disfmarker} There 's so many things .
Grad D: Well , and not just that ,
Postdoc E: OK .
Professor F: it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and enunciation .
Grad D: I mean the uh the corpus itself . I mean , we 're collecting it in a read digit in a particular list , and I 'm sure that they 're doing more specific stuff . I mean if I remember correctly it was like postman reading zipcodes and things like that .
Professor F: TI - digits was ?
Grad D: I thought so .
Professor F: I thought {disfmarker} I thought it was read .
Grad D: Was it read ?
Professor F: Yeah , I think the reading zipcode stuff you 're thinking of would be OGI .
Grad D: Oh , I may well be .
Professor F: Yeah , no TI - digits was read in th in read in the studio I believe .
Grad D: I haven't ever listened to TI - digits . So I don't really know how it compares .
Professor F: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad D: But {disfmarker} but regardless it 's gonna {disfmarker} it 's hard to compare cross - corpus .
Professor F: But it {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} It - it 's different people {pause} is the {disfmarker} is the core thing .
Grad D: So .
Postdoc E: OK , fine .
Professor F: And they 're different circumstances with different recording environment and so forth , so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's really pretty different . But I think the idea of using a set thing was just to give you some sort of framework , so that even though you couldn't do exact comparisons , it wouldn't be s valid scientifically at least it 'd give you some kind of uh frame of reference . Uh , you know it 's not {disfmarker}
PhD B: Hey Liz , What {disfmarker} what do the groupings represent ?
Postdoc E: OK .
PhD B: You said there 's like ten different groupings ?
PhD G: Right , just groupings in terms of number of groups in a line , and number of digits in a group , and the pattern of groupings .
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Are the patterns {disfmarker} like are they based on anything or
PhD G: Um , I {disfmarker} I just roughly looked at what kinds of digit strings are out there , and they 're usually grouped into either two , three , or four , four digits at a time .
PhD B: Oh .
PhD G: And they can have , I mean , actually , things are getting longer and longer . In the old days you probably only had three sequences , and telephone numbers were less , and so forth . So , there 's between , um {disfmarker} Well if you look at it , there are between like three and five groups , and each one has between two and four groupings and {disfmarker} I purposely didn't want them to look like they were in any kind of pattern .
PhD B: Mmm .
PhD G: So
Grad D: And which group appears is picked randomly , and what the numbers are are picked randomly .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: So unlike the previous one , which I d simply replicated TI - digits , this is generated randomly .
PhD G: Right .
PhD A: Oh OK .
PhD B: Mmm , oh , OK .
PhD G: But I think it 'd be great i to be able to compare digits , whether it 's these digits or TI - digits , to speakers , um , and compare that to their spontaneous speech , and then we do need you know a fair amount of {disfmarker} of digit data because you might be wearing a different microphone
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: and , I mean {disfmarker} so it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to have the digits you know , replicated many times . Especially for speakers that don't talk a lot .
Grad D: Yeah .
PhD G: So {vocalsound} um , for adaptation . No , I 'm serious ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad D: Yeah all we have for some people is digits .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: so we have a problem with acoustic adaptation , and we 're not using the digit data now , but you know {disfmarker}
Grad D: Oh , you 're not .
PhD G: Not for adaptation , nope . v W we 're not {disfmarker} we were running adaptation only on the data that we ran recognition on and I 'd {disfmarker} As soon as someone started to read transcript number , that 's read speech and I thought " well , we 're gonna do better on that ,
Grad D: Oh I see .
PhD G: that 's not fair to use " .
Grad D: Oh yeah that 's true , absolutely .
PhD A: OK .
PhD G: But , it might be fair to use the data for adaptation , so . So those speakers who are very quiet , {comment} shy {disfmarker}
Grad D: That would be interesting to see whether that helps .
PhD G: r Right {disfmarker}
PhD B: Like Adam ?
Grad D: Do you think that would help adapting on {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , I have a real problem with that .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: Well , it sh I mean it 's the same micropho see the nice thing is we have that in the {disfmarker} in the same meeting ,
Grad D: Right . Same {disfmarker} same acoustics ,
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: and so you don't get {disfmarker}
Grad D: same microphone ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad D: same channel .
PhD G: Right , and so I still like the idea of having some kind of {pause} digit data .
Grad D: OK . Good .
Professor F: Yeah I mean , for the {disfmarker} for the um acoustic research , for the signal - processing , farfield stuff , I see it as {disfmarker} as {disfmarker} as the place that we start . But , th I mean , it 'd be nice to have twenty hours of digits data , but {disfmarker} but uh the truth is I 'm hoping that we {disfmarker} we through the {disfmarker} the stuff that {disfmarker} that you guys have been doing as you continue that , we get , uh , the best we can do on the spontaneous stuff uh , uh nearfield , and then um , we do a lot of the testing of the algorithms on the digits for the farfield , and at some point when we feel it 's mature and we understand what 's going on with it then we {disfmarker} we have to move on to the spontaneous data with the farfield . So .
Postdoc E: Great .
PhD G: The only thing that we don't have , I know this sounds weird , and maybe it 's completely stupid , but we don't have any overlapping digits .
Grad D: Yeah , we talked about that a couple times .
PhD G: An - yea I know it 's weird , but um {disfmarker}
PhD A: Overlapping digits !
Grad D: The {disfmarker} the problem I see with trying to do overlapping digits is the cognitive load .
PhD G: Alright everybody 's laughing . OK .
Grad C: Dueling digits .
Grad D: No it 's {disfmarker} it 's not stupid , it 's just {disfmarker} I mean , try to do it .
PhD G: I 'm just talkin for the stuff that like Dan Ellis is gonna try ,
Grad D: I mean , here , let 's try it .
PhD G: you know , cross - talk cancellation .
Grad D: You read the last line , I 'll read the first line .
Professor F: Let 's try it .
PhD G: OK .
PhD A: Oh !
PhD G: Wait {disfmarker} oh it {disfmarker} these are all the same forms .
Professor F: Sixty - one .
PhD G: OK {comment} So but {disfmarker}
Grad D: So {disfmarker} so you read the last line , I 'll read the first line .
Professor F: No , I 'll p
PhD G: So you plu you plug your ears .
Grad D: Oh I guess if you plug you 're ears you could do it , but then you don't get the {disfmarker} the same effects .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD G: Well , what I mean is actually no not the overlaps that are well - governed linguistically , but the actual fact that there is speech coming from two people
Grad D: Yeah .
PhD G: and the beam - forming stuf all the acoustic stuff that like Dan Ellis and {disfmarker} and company want to do .
Grad D: Oh I see .
PhD G: Digits are nice and well behaved , I mean
Grad D: I guess we could try .
PhD G: Anyway , it 's just a thought .
Grad D: We could try doing some .
PhD G: It {disfmarker} it would go faster .
PhD B: Parallel .
PhD G: It would take one around {comment} amount of ti
PhD B: It 's the P - make of digit reading .
Grad D: Well {disfmarker} Well OK . Well let 's try it .
PhD G: That 's right . I {disfmarker} I mea I 'm {disfmarker} I was sort of serious , but I really , I mean , I 'm {disfmarker} I don't feel strongly enough that it 's a good idea ,
Professor F: See , y
Grad D: You do the last line , I 'll do the first line .
PhD G: so .
Professor F: OK .
Grad D: O . {comment} That 's not bad .
Professor F: No , I can do it .
PhD B: I couldn't understand a single thing you guys were saying .
PhD G: A and that prosody was great , by the way .
Postdoc E: I think it was numbers , but I 'm not sure .
PhD G: It {disfmarker} it sort of sounded like a duet , or something .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD B: Performance art .
Professor F: Alright , let 's try three at once you {disfmarker} you pick one in the middle .
PhD A: The Aurora theater .
PhD G: OK .
Professor F: Go .
PhD G: I 'm sorry . I 'm mean I think it 's doable ,
Grad D: The poor transcribers
PhD G: I 'm just {disfmarker}
Grad D: they 're gonna hate us .
PhD G: So , we {disfmarker} we could have a round like where you do two at a time , and then the next person picks up when the first guy 's done , or something .
PhD A: So pairwise .
Professor F: Oh like a round , yeah , like in a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker}
PhD G: Like a ,
PhD A: Yeah , just pairwise ,
Professor F: yeah .
PhD G: what do you call it ?
PhD A: or yeah .
Grad C: Round .
Grad D: A round .
Professor F: Row , row , row your boat .
PhD G: Li - a r like {disfmarker}
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: yeah , like that .
Professor F: OK .
PhD B: It 's gonna require some coordination .
PhD G: Then it would go like h twice as fast , or {pause} a third as fast .
Postdoc E: You have to have a similar pace .
PhD G: Anyway , it 's just a thought .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: I 'm actually sort of serious if it would help people do that kind o but the people who wanna work on it we should talk to them .
Professor F: I don't think we 're gonna collect vast amounts of data that way ,
PhD G: So .
Grad D: Mmm .
Professor F: but I think having a little bit might at least be fun for somebody like Dan to play around with ,
PhD G: OK .
Grad D: I think maybe if we wanted to do that we would do it as a separate session ,
Professor F: yeah .
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad D: something like that rather than doing it during a real meeting and you know , do two people at a time then three people at a time and things like that . So .
PhD G: Can try it out .
Grad D: See {disfmarker} see what Dan thinks .
PhD G: If we have nothing {disfmarker} if we have no agenda we could do it some week .
Grad D: Yeah , right .
Professor F: Yeah , yeah . Spend the whole time reading digits with different qu quantities .
PhD G: OK .
Grad D: I thought this was gonna be fast .
Postdoc E: c c Can I can I have an another {disfmarker} another question w about this ?
Grad D: Oh well .
Postdoc E: So , um , there are these digits , which are detached digits , but there are other words that contain the same general phon phoneme sequences . Like " wonderful " has " one " in it and {disfmarker} and Victor Borge had a {disfmarker} had a piece on this where he inflated the digits . Well , I wonder if there 's , um , an if there would be a value in having digits that are in essence embedded in real words to compare in terms of like the articulation of " one " in " wonderful " versus " one " as a digit being read .
Professor F: That 's " two " bad . Yeah .
PhD G: I 'm all " four " it .
Postdoc E: There you go .
Grad D: Not after I " eight " though .
Professor F: Uh , they don't all work as well , do they ? Hmm . What does nine work in ?
Grad C: Nein !
Grad D: Uh .
Professor F: Uh ,
Grad C: You scream it .
Grad D: Nein ! You have to be German ,
Professor F: Oh . In German ,
PhD A: That 's German , yeah .
PhD B: It 's great for the Germans .
Professor F: yeah .
Grad D: yeah .
PhD G: Oh , oh !
Postdoc E: Nein .
Professor F: That 's right !
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad D: Oh !
Grad C: It only sounds w good when you scream it , though . So .
Professor F: I think everybody 's a little punchy here {vocalsound} today .
Postdoc E: Well , I mean , I just wanted to offer that as a possible task
Professor F: Yes .
Postdoc E: because , you know , if we were to each read his embedded numbers words in sent in sentences cuz it 's like an entire sketch he does and I wouldn't take the inflated version . So he talks about the woman being " two - derful " , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} a But , you know , if it were to be deflated , just the normal word , it would be like a little story that we could read .
Professor F: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: I don't know if it would be useful for comparison , but it 's embedded numbers .
Grad D: I think for something like that we 'd be better off doing like uh TIMIT .
Professor F: Well I don't know . Well I think the question is what the research is , so I mean , I presume that the reason that you wanted to have these digits this way is because you wanted to actually do some research looking at the prosodic form here .
Grad D: Hmm .
Professor F: Yeah OK .
PhD G: Right , yeah .
Professor F: So if somebody wanted to do that , if they wanted to look at the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the difference of the uh phones in the digits in the context of a word versus uh the digits {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a non - digit word versus in digit word , uh that would be a good thing to do , but I think someone would have to express interest in that .
Postdoc E: I see . OK .
Professor F: I think , to {disfmarker} I mean if you were interested in it then we could do it , for instance .
Postdoc E: OK , thank you .
Grad D: OK , are we done with digits ?
Postdoc E: Huh .
Grad D: Um , We have ASR results from Liz , transcript status from Jane , and disk space and storage formats from Don . Does {disfmarker} do we have any prefer preference on which way we wanna {disfmarker} we wanna go ?
PhD G: Well I was actually gonna skip the ASR results part , in favor of getting the transcription stuff talked about
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: since I think that 's more important to moving forward , but I mean Morgan has this paper copy and if people have questions , um , it 's pretty preliminary in terms of ASR results because we didn't do anything fancy , but I think e just having the results there , and pointing out some main conclusions like it 's not the speaking style that differs , it 's the fact that there 's overlap that causes recognition errors . And then , the fact that it 's almost all insertion errors , which you would expect but you might also think that in the overlapped regions you would get substitutions and so forth , um , leads us to believe that doing a better segmentation , like your channel - based segmentation , or some kind of uh , echo cancellation to get basically back down to the individual speaker utterances would be probably all that we would need to be able to do good recognition on the {disfmarker} on the close - talking mikes .
PhD A: So these {disfmarker}
Grad D: Um , why don't you , if you have a hard copy , why don't you email it to the list .
PhD G: So , that 's about the summary {disfmarker} But this is {disfmarker} Morgan has this paper .
PhD A: Yeah , yeah .
Grad D: Oh it 's in the paper .
Professor F: Yeah , so it 's the same thing ?
PhD G: I mean he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker}
Professor F: It 's the same thing I mailed to every everybody that w where it was ,
PhD G: it {disfmarker} it 's that paper .
Grad D: OK .
PhD G: Yeah , yeah .
Grad D: OK then , it 's already been mailed .
PhD G: So , we basically , um , did a lot of work on that
Professor F: yeah .
PhD G: and it 's {disfmarker} Let 's see , th I guess the other neat thing is it shows for sure w that the lapel , you know within speaker is bad .
Grad D: Horrible ?
PhD G: And it 's bad because it picks up the overlapping speech .
PhD A: So , your {disfmarker} your ASR results were run on the channels synchronized ,
PhD G: Yes , cuz that 's all that w had been transcribed at the time ,
PhD A: OK . OK . OK .
PhD G: um but as we {disfmarker} I mean I wanted to here more about the transcription . If we can get the channel asynchronous or the {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD G: the closer t that would be very interesting for us
PhD B: So if {disfmarker}
PhD G: because we {disfmarker}
Professor F: Yeah , that 's {disfmarker} that 's why I only used the part from use
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor F: which we had uh about uh about the alt over all the channels
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD G: Right . That 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah sure . Yeah .
Professor F: or mixed channel
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor F: rather mixed signal .
PhD B: So if there was a segment of speech this long
PhD G: cuz {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD B: and oh and someone said " oh , " the whole thing was passed to the recognizer ?
Grad D: And someone said " oh " in the front {disfmarker} in the middle .
PhD A: There were several speakers in it , yeah .
PhD G: That 's right . In fact I {disfmarker} I pulled out a couple classic examples in case you wanna u use them in your talk of
PhD B: That 's why there 's so many insertion errors ?
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Chuck on the lapel , so Chuck wore the lapel three out of four times .
Grad C: Mmm .
Grad D: I noticed that Chuck was wearing the lapel a lot .
PhD B: Early on , yeah .
PhD G: Um , yeah , and I wore the lapel once , and for me the lapel was OK . I mean I still {disfmarker} and I don't know why . I 'm {disfmarker} But um ,
Grad D: Probably how you wear it {disfmarker} wore it I would guess .
PhD G: for you it was {disfmarker} Or who was next to me or something like that .
Grad C: Yeah , where you were sitting probably affected it .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD G: Right , but when Chuck wore the lapel and Morgan was talking there 're a couple really long utterances where Chuck is saying a few things inside , and it 's picking up all of Morgan 's words pretty well and so the rec you know , there 're error rates because of insertion {disfmarker} Insertions aren't bounded , so with a one - word utterance and ten insertions you know you got huge error rate .
Grad D: Uh - huh .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD G: And that 's {disfmarker} that 's where the problems come in . So I this is sort of what we expected , but it 's nice to be able to {disfmarker} to show it .
Grad D: Right .
PhD G: And also I just wanted to mention briefly that , um , uh Andreas and I called up Dan Ellis who 's still stuck in Switzerland , and we were gonna ask him if {disfmarker} if there 're {disfmarker} you know , what 's out there in terms of echo cancellation and things like that . Not that we were gonna do it , but we wanted to know what would need to be done .
Grad D: And he said , " Lots lots lots lots . "
PhD G: And he {disfmarker} We 've given him the data we have so far , so these sychronous cases where there are overlap .
PhD A: Yep .
PhD G: And he 's gonna look into trying to run some things that are out there and see how well it can do
PhD B: So {disfmarker}
PhD G: because right now we 're not able to actually report on recognition in a real paper , like a Eurospeech paper , because it would look sort of premature .
PhD B: So {disfmarker} So the idea is that you would take this big hunk where somebody 's only speaking a small amount in it , and then try to figure out where they 're speaking {comment} based on the other peopl
PhD G: Right . Or who 's {disfmarker} At any point in time who 's the foreground speaker , who 's the background speaker .
PhD A: So yeah {disfmarker}
PhD B: I thought we were just gonna move the boundaries in .
PhD A: Yeah , should it {disfmarker}
PhD G: So .
Grad D: Well that 's with the hand stuff .
PhD G: So there 's like {disfmarker}
Grad D: But how would you do that automatically ?
PhD G: Well ther there 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Uh , I 've actually done some experiments with cross - correlation
PhD B: Right .
PhD A: and it seems to work pretty well to {disfmarker} to get rid of those {disfmarker} those overlaps ,
Grad D: I mean that that 's the sort of thing that you would do .
Professor F: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD A: yeah .
Grad D: So .
PhD G: Yeah . Exactly , so it 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker}
PhD B: So why do you want to do echo cancellation ?
PhD G: Um , it would be techniques used from adaptive {disfmarker} adaptive echo cancellation which I don't know enough about to talk about .
PhD B: Uh - huh .
Professor F: It {disfmarker} just {disfmarker} it just to r to remove cross - talk .
PhD G: Um .
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: But , right , um , and that would be similar to what you 're also trying to do , but using um , you know , more than energy {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD G: I {disfmarker} I don't know what exactly would go into it .
PhD A: Yeah , sure .
PhD B: So it would be {disfmarker}
PhD G: So the idea is to basically run this on the whole meeting . and get the locations , which gives you also the time boundaries of the individual speak
PhD B: OK . So do sort of what he 's already {disfmarker} what he 's trying to do .
PhD G: Right . Except that there are many techniques for the kinds of cues , um , that you can use to do that .
PhD A: Yeah , in another way ,
PhD B: OK , I s I see .
PhD A: yeah . Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah . I see .
Professor F: Yeah , Dave {disfmarker} Dave uh is , um , also gonna be doin usin playing around with echo cancellation for the nearfield farfield stuff ,
PhD G: So .
Professor F: so we 'll be {disfmarker}
PhD G: And I guess Espen ? This {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} is he here too ?
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: May also be working {disfmarker} So it would just be ver that 's really the next step because we can't do too much , you know , on term in terms of recognition results knowing that this is a big problem
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: um , until we can do that kind of processing . And so , once we have some {disfmarker} some of yours ,
PhD A: OK . Yeah I 'm working on it .
PhD G: and @ @ we 'll move on .
PhD B: I think this also ties into one of the things that Jane is gonna talk about too .
Grad D: Um ,
PhD G: OK .
Grad D: I also wanted to say I have done all this chopping up of digits ,
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad D: so I have some naming conventions that we should try to agree on . So let 's do that off - line ,
PhD G: Oh right .
Grad D: we don't need to do it during the meeting .
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad C: OK .
PhD G: Right . Definitely {disfmarker}
Grad D: And {disfmarker} and I have scripts that will extract it out from " key " files
PhD G: Uh , and Don should {disfmarker}
Grad D: and {disfmarker} and do all the naming automatically ,
PhD G: OK .
Grad C: Alright .
Grad D: so you don't have to do it by hand .
PhD G: Great .
Grad C: You 've compiled the list of , uh , speaker names ?
PhD G: So that that 's it for the {disfmarker}
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Speakers and {disfmarker} OK .
Grad C: Not names , but I Ds .
Grad D: Yep . Yeah , names {disfmarker} names in the {disfmarker} names to I Ds ,
Grad C: OK .
Grad D: so you
PhD G: Great .
Grad D: and it does all sorts of matches because the way people filled out names is different on every single file so it does a very fuzzy sort of match .
PhD G: Right .
Grad C: Cool .
PhD G: So at this point we can sort of finalize the naming , and so forth ,
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Yep .
PhD G: and we 're gonna basically re rewrite out these waveforms that we did because as you notice in the paper your " M O in one meeting and " M O - two " in another meeting and it 's {disfmarker} we just need to standardize the
Grad C: Yeah . That was my fault .
PhD G: um , no it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}
Professor F: No , I didn't notice that actually .
PhD G: um , that 's why those comments are s {vocalsound} are in there .
Grad C: Yeah . Then disregard it then .
Grad D: Yep . So th I now have a script that you can just say basically look up Morgan ,
PhD G: So {disfmarker}
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: Right . OK .
Grad D: and it will give you his ID .
PhD G: Great , great .
Grad C: OK .
Grad D: So . Um ,
PhD G: Terrific .
Grad D: alright . Do we {disfmarker} Don , you had disk space and storage formats . Is that something we need to talk about at the meeting , or should you just talk with Chuck at some other time ?
Grad C: Um , I had some general questions just about the compression algorithms of shortening waveforms and I don't know exactly who to ask . I thought that maybe you would be the {disfmarker} the person to talk to . So , is it a lossless compression {comment} when you compress ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: so {disfmarker}
Grad D: Entropy coding .
Grad C: It just uses entropy coding ?
Grad D: So .
Grad C: OK . So , I mean , I guess my question would be is I just got this new eighteen gig drive installed . Um , yeah , which is {disfmarker}
Grad D: And I assume half of it is scratch and half of it is {disfmarker} ?
Grad C: I 'm not exactly sure how they partitioned it .
Grad D: Probably , yeah .
Grad C: But um ,
Professor F: That 's typical , huh .
Grad C: yeah , I don't know what 's typical here , but um , it 's local though , so {disfmarker}
Grad D: That doesn't matter .
Grad C: But {disfmarker}
Grad D: You can access it from anywhere in ICSI . N {disfmarker}
Grad C: OK . Alright . How do you do that ?
Professor F: In fact , this is an eighteen gig drive , {comment} or is it a thirty six gig drive with eighteen {disfmarker}
Grad D: N {disfmarker}
Grad C: Eighteen .
PhD G: Eigh - eighteen . It was a spare that Dave had around {disfmarker}
Grad D: Slash N slash machine name , slash X A in all likelihood .
Professor F: Oh OK .
Grad C: Oh I see . OK . Alright , I did know that .
Grad D: Um , so the {disfmarker} the only question is how much of it {disfmarker} The distinction between scratch and non - scratch is whether it 's backed up or not .
Grad C: Mm - hmm . Right .
Grad D: So what you wanna do is use the scratch for stuff that you can regenerate .
Grad C: OK .
Grad D: So , the stuff that isn't backed up is not a big deal because disks don't crash very frequently ,
Grad C: Right .
Grad D: as long as you can regenerate it .
Grad C: Right . I mean all of this stuff can be regenerated ,
PhD G: Yeah it 's {disfmarker}
Grad C: it 's just a question {disfmarker}
Grad D: Then put it all on scratch
PhD G: Well the {disfmarker}
Grad D: because we 're {disfmarker} ICSI is {disfmarker} is bottlenecked by backup .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm , very good point .
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad C: OK .
Grad D: So we wanna put {disfmarker}
PhD G: Well I 'd leave all the {disfmarker} All the transcript stuff shouldn't {disfmarker} should be backed up ,
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: but all the waveform {disfmarker} {comment} Sound files should not be backed up ,
Grad C: Yeah , I guess {disfmarker} Right .
PhD G: the ones that you write out .
Grad C: OK . So , I mean , I guess th the other question was then , should we shorten them , downsample them , or keep them in their original form ? Um {disfmarker}
Grad D: It just depends on your tools . I mean , because it 's not backed up and it 's just on scratch , if your sc tools can't take shortened format , I would leave them expanded ,
Grad C: Right .
Grad D: so you don't have to unshorten them every single time you wanna do anything .
Grad C: OK .
PhD G: We can downsample them ,
Grad C: Do you think that 'd be OK ?
PhD G: so .
Grad C: To downsample them ?
PhD G: Yeah . Yeah , we get the same performance .
Grad C: OK .
PhD G: I mean the r the front - end on the SRI recognizer just downsamples them on the fly ,
Grad C: Yeah , I guess the only argument against downsampling is to preserve just the original files in case we want to experiment with different filtering techniques .
PhD G: so {disfmarker} So that 's {disfmarker}
Professor F: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yeah , if
Professor F: Yeah , l I mean over all our data , we {disfmarker} we want to not downsample .
PhD G: fe You 'd {disfmarker} you wanna not . OK .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: So we 're {disfmarker} what we 're doing is we 're writing out {disfmarker} I mean , this is just a question . We 're writing out these individual segments , that wherever there 's a time boundary from Thilo , or {disfmarker} or Jane 's transcribers , you know , we {disfmarker} we chop it {pause} there .
Professor F: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
PhD G: And the reason is so that we can feed it to the recognizer ,
Professor F: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: and throw out ones that we 're not using and so forth .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: And those are the ones that we 're storing .
Grad D: Yeah , as I said , since that 's {disfmarker} it 's regeneratable , what I would do is take {disfmarker} downsample it ,
PhD G: So {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad D: and compress it however you 're e the SRI recognizer wants to take it in .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: ye
PhD G: So we can't shorten them ,
Grad C: Right .
PhD G: but we can downsample them .
Professor F: Yeah , I mean {disfmarker} yeah , I 'm sorry .
PhD G: So .
Professor F: As {disfmarker} yeah , as long as there is a {disfmarker} a form that we can come from again , that is not downsampled , {comment} then ,
Grad C: r Yeah .
PhD G: Oh yeah th
Grad C: Yeah those are gonna be kept .
PhD G: Yeah . Yeah . That {disfmarker} that 's why we need more disk space
Professor F: uuu
PhD G: cuz we 're basically duplicating the originals , um {disfmarker}
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad D: Right .
Professor F: Then it 's fine . But for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} fu future research we 'll be doing it with different microphone positions and so on
PhD G: Oh yeah .
Grad C: Right .
Grad D: Yep .
PhD G: No . We always have the original long ones .
Professor F: we would like to {disfmarker}
PhD B: So the SRI front - end won't take a uh {disfmarker} an {disfmarker} an {disfmarker} a large audio file name and then a {disfmarker} a list of segments to chop out {comment} from that large audio file ?
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD B: They actually have to be chopped out already ?
PhD G: Um , it 's better if they 're chopped out ,
PhD B: Uh - huh .
PhD G: and {disfmarker} and it {disfmarker} it will be {disfmarker} yeah , y we could probably write something to do that , but it 's actually convenient to have them chopped out cuz you can run them , you know , in different orders . You c you can actually move them around .
Grad D: And that 's the whole point about the naming conventions
PhD G: Uh , you can get rid of
Grad D: is that you could run all the English speaking ,
PhD G: Yeah , it it 's a lot faster .
Grad D: all the native speakers , and all the non - native speakers ,
PhD G: Right . You can grab everything with the word " the " in it ,
Grad D: and all the men , and all the women . Yeah .
PhD G: and it 's {disfmarker} That 's a lot quicker than actually trying to access the wavefile each time , find the time boundaries and {disfmarker} So in principle , yeah , you could do that ,
PhD B: I don't {disfmarker} I don't think that 's really right .
PhD G: but it 's {disfmarker} but it 's um {disfmarker}
Grad D: " That 's just not right , man . " The {disfmarker} the point {disfmarker}
PhD G: These are long {disfmarker} These are long {disfmarker}
Grad D: So {disfmarker} so s For example , what if you wanted to run {disfmarker} run all the native speakers .
PhD G: You know . This is an hour of speech .
Grad D: Right , so if {disfmarker} if you did it that way you would have to generate a program that looks in the database somewhere , extracts out the language , finds the time - marks for that particular one , do it that way . The way they 're doing it , you have that already extracted and it 's embedded in the file name . And so , you know , you just say {disfmarker}
PhD G: We - yeah that 's {disfmarker} so that 's part of it
Grad D: y so you just say you know " asterisk E asterisk dot wave " , and you get what you want .
PhD G: is {disfmarker} Right . And the other part is just that once they 're written out it {disfmarker} it is a lot faster to {disfmarker} to process them .
Grad D: Rather than doing seeks through the file .
PhD G: So . Otherwise , you 're just accessing {disfmarker}
Grad D: This is all just temporary access , so I don't {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} it 's all just {disfmarker} It 's fine . You know . Fine to do it however is convenient .
PhD G: Right .
Professor F: I mean it just depends how big the file is . If the file sits in memory you can do extremely fast seeks
PhD G: Right . The other thing is that , believe it or not {disfmarker} I mean , we have some {disfmarker}
Professor F: but .
Grad D: Yeah and they don't . Two gig ?
PhD G: So we 're also looking at these in Waves like for the alignments and so forth . You can't load an hour of speech into X Waves .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: You need to s have these small files , and in fact , even for the Transcriber program Um {disfmarker}
Grad D: Yes you can .
PhD B: Yeah , you {disfmarker} you can give Waves a start and an end time . And middle .
PhD G: Yeah , if you try to load s really long waveform into X Waves , you 'll be waiting there for {disfmarker}
PhD B: No , I {disfmarker} I 'm not suggesting you load a long wave file ,
PhD G: Oh
PhD B: I 'm just saying you give it a start and an end time . And it 'll just go and pull out that section .
Grad D: I th w The transcribers didn't have any problem with that did they Jane ?
Postdoc E: What 's th u w in what respect ?
PhD G: Loading the long {disfmarker}
PhD A: No , with the Transcriber tool , it 's no problem .
Grad D: They loaded {disfmarker} they loaded the long long files into X Waves .
PhD G: It takes a very long ti
PhD A: Yeah just to load a transcription
Postdoc E: In the {disfmarker} in Mm - hmm .
PhD A:
PhD G: Right .
PhD A: takes a long time ,
PhD G: It takes a l very long time .
PhD A: but not for the wavefile . The wavefile is there immediately .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Grad D: Are you talking about Transcriber or X Waves ?
PhD G: Huh .
PhD A: Yeah . Oh , I 'm tr talking about Transcriber .
PhD G: Actually , you 're talking about Transcriber , right ?
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad D: Because {disfmarker} because i we used X Waves to do the digits .
Postdoc E: It was also true of the digits task which was X Waves .
Grad D: And they were loading the full mixed files then ,
Postdoc E: Yeah . Very quickly .
Grad D: and it didn't seem to be any problem .
Postdoc E: I agree .
PhD G: Huh . Well we {disfmarker} we have a problem with that , you know , time - wise on a {disfmarker} It - it 's a lot slower to load in a long file ,
Grad D: Hmm . Seemed really fast .
PhD G: and also to check the file , so if you have a transcript , um ,
Grad D: Well regardless , it 's {disfmarker}
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: I mean it 's {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think overall you could get everything to work by accessing the same waveform and trying to find two {disfmarker} you know , the begin and end times . Um , but I think it 's more efficient , if we have the storage space , to have the small ones .
Grad D: and , it 's no problem , right ?
PhD G: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker}
Grad D: Because it 's not backed up .
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad D: So we just {disfmarker}
PhD G: It 's {disfmarker} it 's just {disfmarker}
Grad D: If we don't have a spare disk sitting around we go out and we buy ourselves an eighty gigabyte drive and make it all scratch space . You know , it 's not a big deal .
Postdoc E: You 're right about the backup being {pause} a bottleneck .
PhD G: Right .
Postdoc E: It 's good to think towards scratch .
PhD G: Yeah , so these wouldn't be backed up , the {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Professor F: Yep .
PhD G: Right .
Grad D: So remind me afterward
PhD G: And {disfmarker}
Grad D: and I 'll {disfmarker} and we 'll look at your disk and see where to put stuff .
Grad C: OK . Alright . I mean , I could just u do a DU on it right ? And just see which {disfmarker} how much is on each {disfmarker} So .
Grad D: Yep . Each partition . And you wanna use , either XA or scratch .
Grad C: OK .
Grad D: Well X question mark , anything starting with X is scratch .
Grad C: OK .
Postdoc E: With two {disfmarker} two digits .
Grad D: Two digits , right , XA , XB , XC . OK ?
Professor F: So , @ @ .
Grad D: Jane ?
Postdoc E: OK . So I got a little print - out here . So three on this side , three on this side . And I stapled them . OK . Alright so , first of all , um , there was a {disfmarker} an interest in the transcribe transcription , uh , checking procedures and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and I can {vocalsound} tell you first , uh , to go through the steps although you 've probably seen them . Um , as you might imagine , when you 're dealing with , um , r really c a fair number of words , and uh , @ @ {comment} natural speech which means s self - repairs and all these other factors , that there 're lots of things to be , um , s standardized and streamlined and checked on . And , um , so , I did a bunch of checks , and the first thing I did was obviously a spell - check . And at that point I discovered certain things like , um , " accommodate " with one " M " , that kind of thing . And then , in addition to that , I did an exhaustive listing of the forms in the data file , which included n detecting things like f faulty punctuation and things {disfmarker}
PhD B: I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry to interrupt
Postdoc E: Yeah ?
PhD B: you could {disfmarker} could I just back up a little bit
Postdoc E: Sure , please ,
PhD B: and {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: yeah , please , please .
PhD B: So you 're doing these {disfmarker} So {pause} the whole process is that the transcribers get the conversation
Postdoc E: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
PhD B: and they do their pass over it .
Postdoc E: Yes .
PhD B: And then when they 're finished with it , it comes to you ,
Postdoc E: That 's right .
PhD B: and you begin these sanit these quality checks .
Postdoc E: Exactly . I do these checks .
PhD B: OK .
Postdoc E: Uh - huh .
PhD B: OK .
Postdoc E: Exactly . Yeah . Thank you . And so , uh , I do a {disfmarker} an exhaustive listing of the forms {disfmarker} Actually , I will go through this in {disfmarker} in order , so if {disfmarker} if we could maybe wait and stick keep that for a second cuz we 're not ready for that .
Grad D: So on the fifth page , seven down {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . Exactly ! Exactly ! Alright so , {vocalsound} a spelling check first then an exhaustive listing of the , uh {disfmarker} all the forms in the data with the punctuation attached and at that point I pick up things like , oh , you know , word followed by two commas . And th and then another check involves , uh , being sure that every utterance has an identifiable speaker . And if not , then that gets checked . Then there 's this issue of glossing s w so - called " spoken - forms " . So there {disfmarker} mo for the most part , we 're keeping it standard wo word level transcription . But there 's {disfmarker} w And that that 's done with the assumption that {pause} pronunciation variants can be handled . So for things like " and " , the fact that someone doesn't say the " D " , uh that 's not important enough to capture in the transcription because a {disfmarker} a good pronunciation , uh , you know , model would be able to handle that . However , things like " cuz " where you 're lacking an entire very prominent first syllable , and furthermore , it 's a form that 's specific to spoken language , those are r reasons {disfmarker} f for those reasons I {disfmarker} I kept that separate , and used the convention of using " CUZ " for that form , however , glossing it so that it 's possible with the script to plug in the full orthographic form for that one , and a couple of others , not many . So " wanna " is another one , " going {disfmarker} " uh , " gonna " is another one , with just the assumption , again , that this {disfmarker} th these are things which it 's not really fair to a c consider {disfmarker} expect that {disfmarker} a pronunciation model , to handle . And Chuck , you in you indicated that " cuz " is {disfmarker} is one of those that 's handled in a different way also , didn't you ? Did I {disfmarker}
PhD B: I don't remember .
Postdoc E: OK . So {disfmarker} so it might not have been {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It might not have been you ,
PhD B: Hmm .
Postdoc E: but someone told me that in fact " cuz " is treated differently in , um , i u in this context because of that r reason that , um , it 's a little bit farther than a pronunciation variant . OK , so after that , let 's see ,
PhD B: So that was part of the spell - check , {comment} or was that {disfmarker} that was after the spell - check ?
Postdoc E: um . Well so when I get the exhau So the spell - check picks up those words because they 're not in the dictionary .
PhD B: Uh - huh .
Postdoc E: So it gets " cuz " and " wanna " and that {disfmarker}
Grad D: And then you gloss them ?
Postdoc E: Yeah , mm - hmm . Run it through {disfmarker} I have a sed {disfmarker} You know , so I do sed script saying whenever you see " gonna " you know , " convert it to gonna " , you know , " gloss equals quote going - to quote " , you know . And with all these things being in curly brackets
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: so they 're always distinctive . OK , I also wrote a script which will , um , retrieve anything in curly brackets , {vocalsound} or anything which I 've classified as an acronym , and {disfmarker} a pronounced acronym . And the way I tag ac pronounced acronyms is that I have underscores between the components . So if it 's " ACL " then it 's " A " underscore " C " underscore " L " .
Grad D: And so {disfmarker} so your list here , are these ones that actually occurred in the meetings ?
Postdoc E: And the th Yes . Uh - huh , yeah .
Grad D: Whew !
Postdoc E: OK , so now . Uh and {disfmarker} a
Grad D: We are acronym - loaded .
PhD G: Um , can I ask a question about the glossing , uh before we go on ?
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD G: So , for a word like " because " is it that it 's always predictably " because " ? I mean , is " CUZ " always meaning " because " ?
Postdoc E: Yes , but not the reverse . So sometimes people will say " because " in the meeting , and if {disfmarker} if they actually said " because " , then it 's written as " because " with no {disfmarker} w " cuz " doesn't even figure into the equation .
Professor F: But {disfmarker} but in our meetings people don't say " hey cuz how you doing ? "
PhD G: Beca - because {disfmarker} Right . {comment} {vocalsound} Right .
Grad D: Except right there .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: Um , so , I guess {disfmarker} So , from the point of view of {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: That 's a good point .
PhD G: The {disfmarker} the only problem is that with {disfmarker} for the recognition we {disfmarker} we map it to " because " ,
Grad D: Well ,
PhD G: and so if we know that " CUZ " {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: That 's fine .
Grad D: but they have the gloss .
Postdoc E: Well Don has a script .
Grad C: Yeah .
PhD G: but , we don't {disfmarker}
Grad D: You have the gloss form so you always replace it .
Postdoc E: Exactly .
Grad D: If that 's how {disfmarker} what you wanna do .
Postdoc E: Uh - huh . And Don knows this ,
Grad C: Yeah .
Postdoc E: and he 's bee he has a glo he has a script that {disfmarker}
Grad C: I replace the " cuz " with " because " if it 's glossed .
PhD G: S Right . But , if it 's {disfmarker} OK .
Grad C: And {disfmarker}
PhD G: But then there are other glosses that we don't replace , right ? Because {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Yes . And that 's why there 're different tags on the glosses ,
PhD G: OK . So , then it 's fine .
Postdoc E: on the different {disfmarker} on the different types of comments , which we 'll {disfmarker} which we 'll see in just a second .
Grad C: Right .
PhD G: OK .
Postdoc E: So the pronounceable acronyms get underscores , the things in curly brackets are viewed as comments . There 're comments of four types . So this is a good time to introduce that . The four types . w And maybe we 'll expand that
Grad D: Um {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: but the {disfmarker} but the comments are , um , of four types mainly right now . One of them is , um , the gloss type we just mentioned .
Grad D: Can {disfmarker} ca
Postdoc E: Another type is , um {disfmarker}
Grad D: So a are we done with acronyms ? Cuz I had a question on what {disfmarker} what this meant .
Postdoc E: I 'm still doing the overview . I haven't actually gotten here yet .
Grad D: Oh I 'm sorry .
Postdoc E: OK so , gloss is things like replacing the full form u with the , um , more abbreviated one to the left . Uh , then you have if it 's {disfmarker} uh , there 're a couple different types of elements that can happen that aren't really properly words , and wo some of them are laughs and breathes , so we have {disfmarker} uh that 's prepended with a v a tag of " VOC " .
PhD A: Whew !
Postdoc E: And the non - vocal ones are like door - slams and tappings , and that 's prepended with a no non - vocalization .
PhD B: So then it {disfmarker} just an ending curly brace there , or is there something else in there .
Postdoc E: Oh yeah , so i e this would {disfmarker}
Grad D: A comment , basically .
Postdoc E: Let 's just take one example .
PhD B: Oh , oh , oh .
Postdoc E: And then the no non - vocalization would be something like a door - slam . They always end . So it 's like they 're paired curly brackets . And then the third type right now , {vocalsound} uh , is {pause} m things that fall in the category of comments about what 's happening . So it could be something like , you know , " referring to so - and - so " , " talking about such - and - such " , uh , you know , " looking at so - and - so " .
PhD B: So on the m
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD B: on the middle t So , in the first case that gloss applies to the word to the left . But in the middle two {disfmarker} Th - it 's not applying to anything , right ?
Postdoc E: Yeah , and this gets substituted here .
Grad D: They 're impulsive .
PhD B: OK .
Postdoc E: Huh - uh . No , they 're events .
PhD B: OK .
Grad D: Well the " QUAL " can be {disfmarker} The " QUAL " is applying to the left .
Postdoc E: They 're actually {disfmarker} They have the status of events .
PhD B: Right , I just meant the middle two ones , yeah .
Grad D: Yep .
Postdoc E: Well , and actually , um , it is true that , with respect to " laugh " , there 's another one which is " while laughing " ,
Grad D: " While laughing " .
Postdoc E: and that is , uh , i i An argument could be made for this {disfmarker} tur turning that into a qualitative statement because it 's talking about the thing that preceded it , but at present we haven't been , um , uh , coding the exact scope of laughing , you know , and so to have " while laughing " , you know that it happened somewhere in there which could well mean that it occurred separately and following , or , you know , including some of the utterances to the left . Haven't been awfully precise about that , but I have here , now we 're about to get to the {disfmarker} to this now , I have frequencies . So you 'll see how often these different things occur . But , um , uh , the very front page deals with this , uh , final c pa uh , uh , aspect of the standardization which has to do with the spoken forms like " mm - hmm " and " mm - hmm " and " ha " and " uh - uh " and all these different types . And , um , uh , someone pointed out to me , this might have been Chuck , {comment} about , um {disfmarker} about how a recognizer , if it 's looking for " mm - hmmm " with three M 's , {vocalsound} and it 's transcribed with two M 's , {vocalsound} that it might {disfmarker} uh , that it might increase the error rate which is {disfmarker} which would really be a shame because um , I p I personally w would not be able to make a claim that those are dr dramatically different items . So , right now I 've standardized across all the existing data with these spoken forms .
Grad D: Oh good .
Postdoc E: I {disfmarker} I should say
Grad D: So it 's a small list .
Postdoc E: all existing data except thirty minutes which got found today . So , I 'm gonna {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I 'm gonna {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I 'm gonna check {disfmarker}
Grad D: That {disfmarker} that 's known as " found data " .
Postdoc E: Yeah , yeah . Acsu - actually yeah . I got {disfmarker} It was stored in a place I didn't expect ,
Grad C: It 's like the z Zapruder Film .
Postdoc E: so {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and um , w we , uh , sh yea reconstructed how that happened .
Professor F: I wanna work with lost data .
Grad D: Yeah . It 's much easier .
Postdoc E: And this is {disfmarker} this 'll be great . So I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll be able to get through that tonight , and then everyth i well , actually later today probably .
Grad D: Hmm .
Postdoc E: And so then we 'll have everything following these conventions . But you notice it 's really rather a small set of these kinds of things .
Grad D: Yeah .
Postdoc E: And I made it so that these are , um , with a couple exceptions but , things that you wouldn't find in the spell - checker so that they 'll show up really easily . And , um {disfmarker}
Grad C: Jane , can I ask you a question ? What 's that very last one correspond to ?
Postdoc E: Sure .
Grad C: I don't even know how to pronounce that .
Postdoc E: Well , yeah . Now that {disfmarker} that s only occurs once ,
PhD G: Yeah .
Postdoc E: and I 'm thinking of changing that .
PhD G: Right .
Grad C: Uh , is that like someone 's like burning or some such thing ?
Postdoc E: So - c I haven't listened to it so I don't know .
Grad C: Like their hair 's on fire ?
Postdoc E: I haven't heard it actually . I n I need to listen to that one .
Grad D: Ah !
PhD A: It 's the Castle of Ah !
PhD G: Actually we {disfmarker} we gave this to our pronunciation person ,
Grad C: Uh , it looks like that .
PhD G: she 's like , " I don't know what that is either " . So .
Postdoc E: Did she hear the th did she actually hear it ? Cuz I haven't heard it .
PhD G: No , we just gave her a list of words that , you know , weren't in our dictionary and so of course it picked up stuff like this , and she just didn't listen so she didn't know . We just {disfmarker} we 're waiting on that {pause} just to do the alignments .
Postdoc E: Yeah . Yeah I 'm curious to se hear what it is , but I didn't know {disfmarker} wanna change it to something else until I knew .
Grad C: Right .
PhD G: Maybe it 's " argh " ?
Postdoc E: Well , sss , {comment} you know {disfmarker}
PhD G:
Grad C: But that 's not really like {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Hhh .
Grad C: No one really says " argh , " you know ,
Postdoc E:
PhD G: Yeah . Right , no one say
Grad C: it 's not {disfmarker}
Professor F: Well , you just did .
PhD B: Except for now !
Grad C: Well , there 's another {disfmarker} there 's another word error .
Grad D:
Postdoc E: Yeah . That 's right .
Grad D: Yes , that 's right . We 're gonna have a big problem when we talk about that .
Grad C: Cha - ching .
PhD G: Ah .
PhD B: We 're gonna never recognize this meeting .
Grad D: In Monty Python you say " argh " a lot .
Postdoc E: OK .
Grad C: Oh yeah ?
Grad D: So . Well , or if you 're a C programmer .
Grad C: Mmm .
Grad D: You say arg - C and arg - V all the time .
Postdoc E: Yeah , that 's right .
Professor F: Yeah .
Postdoc E: That 's right .
Grad C: That 's true .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Professor F: Yeah
PhD G: But it has a different prosody .
Professor F: Arg .
Grad D: It does .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Arg {disfmarker} arg - max , arg - min , yeah .
Grad D: Ah !
Postdoc E: Uh ,
PhD G: So , Jane , what 's the {disfmarker} d
Grad D: Maybe he died while dictating .
Postdoc E: so .
PhD G: I have one question about the the " EH " versus like the " AH " and the " UH " .
Postdoc E: That 's partly a nonnative - native thing ,
PhD G: OK .
Postdoc E: but I have found " EH " in native speakers too .
PhD G:
Postdoc E: But it 's mostly non - native {disfmarker}
PhD A: H
PhD B: That 's " eh " versus " ah " ?
PhD G: S OK .
Postdoc E: Eh .
Grad D: Eh ?
PhD G: " Eh , " yeah right , cuz there were {disfmarker} were some speakers that did definite " eh 's "
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: but right now we {disfmarker}
PhD B: They were the Canadians , right ?
Professor F: Canadians , yeah , yeah , yeah .
Postdoc E: That 's right .
PhD G: So , it {disfmarker} it 's actually probably good for us to know the difference between the real " eh " and the one that 's just like " uh " or transcribed " aaa "
Postdoc E: Exactly .
PhD G: cuz in {disfmarker} like in Switchboard , you would see e all of these forms , but they all were like " uh " .
Grad D: You mean just the single letter " a " {comment} as in the particle ?
PhD A: The transcription or {disfmarker}
Grad D: Article .
PhD G: No , no , I mean like the {disfmarker} the " UH " ,
Postdoc E: " UH " .
Grad D: Oh .
PhD G: or {disfmarker} the " UH " , " EH " , " AH " were all the same . And then , we have this additional non - native version of {disfmarker} uh , like " eeh " .
Grad C: All the " EH " 's I 've seen have been like that . They 've been like " eh " like that have bee has been transcribed to " EH " . And sometimes it 's stronger ,
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm , that 's right .
Grad C: like " eeh " {comment} which is like closer to " EH " .
Postdoc E: Mmm .
PhD G: Right .
Grad C: But .
Grad D: I 'm just {disfmarker} these poor transcribers , they 're gonna hate this meeting .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Grad C: I know . We should go off - line .
Postdoc E: Well , {vocalsound} we 're not doing {disfmarker} We 're not doing length .
Professor F: Quick Thilo , do a {disfmarker} do a filled pause for us .
Postdoc E: Yeah , that 's right .
PhD A: Ooo {comment} no .
PhD G: But you 're a native German speaker so it 's not a {disfmarker} not a issue for {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD G: It 's only {disfmarker}
Grad D: Them Canadians .
PhD G: Onl yeah . No , only if you don't have lax vowels , I guess .
Grad D: Oh .
PhD G: Right .
Postdoc E: This makes sense .
PhD G: So it 's {disfmarker} like Japanese and Spanish
Postdoc E: Yeah I {disfmarker} I think you 've {disfmarker} uh - huh , yeah .
Grad D: Oh I see .
Professor F: Uh - huh .
PhD G: and {disfmarker}
Grad D: I didn't get that ,
Postdoc E: That makes sense .
Grad D: OK .
Postdoc E: Yeah , and so , you know , I mean , th th I have {disfmarker} there are some , um , Americans who {disfmarker} who are using this " eh " too , and I haven't listened to it systematically , maybe with some of them , uh , they 'd end up being " uh 's " but , uh , I my spot - checking has made me think that we do have " eh " in also , um , American e e data represented here . But any case , that 's the {disfmarker} this is reduced down from really quite a long a much longer list ,
PhD G: Yeah this is great .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Yeah , it 's good ,
Postdoc E: and this is
Grad D: yeah .
PhD G: This is really really helpful .
Postdoc E: functionally pretty , you know , also {disfmarker} It was fascinating , I was listening to some of these , uh , I guess two nights ago , and it 's just hilarious to liste to {disfmarker} to do a search for the " mm - hmm 's " . And you get " mm - hmm " and diff everybody 's doing it .
Grad D: And just listen to them ? Yeah .
Postdoc E: Just {disfmarker} I wanted to say {disfmarker} I w think it would be fun to make a montage of it because there 's a " Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Performance art ,
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm . "
Grad D: just extract them all .
PhD G: Right .
Postdoc E: It 's really {disfmarker} it 's really fun to listen to .
PhD B: Morgan can make a song out of it .
Postdoc E: All these different vocal tracts , you know , but it 's {disfmarker} it 's the same item . It 's very interesting . OK . Uh , then the acronyms y and the ones in parentheses are ones which the transcriber wasn't sure of ,
Grad D: Oh I see .
Postdoc E: and I haven't been able to listen to to {disfmarker} to clarify , but you can see that the parenthesis convention makes it very easy to find them
Grad D: o How about question mark ?
Postdoc E: cuz it 's the only place where {disfmarker} where they 're used .
PhD A: The question marks , yeah . What are those ?
Postdoc E: Question mark is punctuation . So it {disfmarker} they said that @ @ {disfmarker}
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Oh .
Postdoc E: um , " DC ? "
PhD A: Ah .
Grad D: So they {disfmarker} so it 's " PLP ? "
Postdoc E: Exactly . Exactly . Yeah , so the only {disfmarker} Well , and I do have a stress marker here . Sometimes the contrastive stress is showing up , and , um {disfmarker}
Professor F: I 'm sorry , I {disfmarker} I got lost here . What - w what 's the difference between the parenthesized acronym and the non - parenthesized ?
Postdoc E: The parenthesized is something that the transcriber thought was ANN , but wasn't entirely sure . So I 'd need to go back or someone needs to go back , and say , you know , yes or no ,
Professor F: Ah .
Postdoc E: and then get rid of the parentheses .
PhD G: Right .
Postdoc E: But the parentheses are used only in that context in the transcripts , of of noti noticing that there 's something uncertain .
Grad D: Yeah , P - make is {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yeah I mean cuz they {disfmarker} they have no idea ,
Grad D: That 's a good one . That 's correct .
PhD G: right . If you hear CTPD , I mean , they do pretty well
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: but it 's {disfmarker}
Professor F: I {disfmarker} I don't recognize a lot of these .
PhD G: you know how are {disfmarker} how are they gonna know ?
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad D: I know ! I {disfmarker} I was saying that I think a lot of them are the Networks meeting .
Professor F: I {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: I think that 's true .
Professor F: Maybe .
Postdoc E: Yeah , absolutely .
Grad D: I see a few .
Postdoc E: NSA ,
PhD G: Yeah .
Postdoc E: a lot of these are {disfmarker} are coming from them . I listened to some of that .
Grad C: Yeah , we don't have that many acronyms comparatively in this meeting .
Grad D: Although I see {disfmarker} I see plenty of uh
Postdoc E: Yeah . Yeah . I agree .
Grad C: It 's not so bad .
PhD G: Right .
Postdoc E: And Robustness has a fair amount ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad C: Mmm .
Postdoc E: but the NSA group is just very very many .
PhD G: The recognizer , it is funny . Kept getting PTA for PDA .
Grad D: Yeah , that 's pretty close .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: This is close , right ,
Grad C: That 's not bad .
PhD G: and the PTA was in these , uh , topics about children ,
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD G: so , anyway .
Postdoc E: That 's interesting .
PhD G: Is the P - PTA working ?
Postdoc E: Right and sometimes , I mean , you see a couple of these that are actually " OK 's " so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} may be that they got to the point where {disfmarker} I mean it was low enough understandable {disfmarker} understandability that they weren't entirely sure the person said " OK . " You know , so it isn't really necessarily a an undecipherable acronym ,
Grad C: There 's a lot of " OK 's " .
Postdoc E: but just n needs to be double checked . Now we get to the comments . This {disfmarker}
Professor F: The number to the left is the number of incidences ?
Grad D: Count . Yep .
Postdoc E: Number of times out of the entire database ,
Professor F: Uh - huh .
Postdoc E: w except for that last thirty minutes I haven't checked yet .
Professor F: So CTS is really big here ,
Grad D: Yeah , I wonder what it is .
Professor F: yeah . Yeah .
PhD A: So what is the difference between " papers rustling " and " rustling papers " ?
Professor F: IP , I know what IP is .
Postdoc E: I 'd have to listen . I {disfmarker} I I agree . I w I 'd like to standardize these down farther but , um , uh , uh , to me that sounds equivalent .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc E: But , I {disfmarker} I 'm a little hesitant to {disfmarker} to collapse across categories unless I actually listen to them .
PhD A: Seems so .
Professor F: OK .
Grad D: Oh I 'm sure we 've said XML more than five times .
Postdoc E: Well , then , at least now .
PhD A: Now it 's at least six times , yeah .
Professor F: S s six now , yeah .
Postdoc E: Yeah . Six . OK well {disfmarker}
Professor F: Wh - the self - referential aspect of these {disfmarker} these p
PhD G: I 'm wai
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad D: Yes , it 's very bad .
PhD G: Well this is exactly how people will prove that these meetings do differ because we 're recording , right ?
Grad D: Yes .
PhD G: Y no normally you don't go around saying , " Now you 've said it six times .
Grad D: Yeah {comment} that 's right .
PhD G: Now you 've said "
Postdoc E: But did you notice that there were seven hundred and eighty five instances of " OK " ?
PhD A: Seven hundred eighty - five instances .
Postdoc E: And that 's just without the {disfmarker} without punc punctuation .
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad D: Yep .
Professor F: No , I didn't . Yeah .
Grad D: And that 's an underestimate
Postdoc E: Extra forty one if it 's questioned .
PhD B: Where 's that ?
Grad D: cuz they 're Yep .
Professor F: So th
Postdoc E: On the page two of acronyms .
Grad C: Is this after {disfmarker} like did you do some uh replacements for all the different form of " OK " to this ?
Professor F: Yeah . Seven hundred eighty .
Postdoc E: Yeah . Of " OK " , yes .
Grad C: OK .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm . So that 's the single existing convention for " OK " .
PhD B: Wait a minute , w s
Professor F: So now we 're up to seven hundred and eighty eight .
Postdoc E: Yeah that 's {disfmarker}
Grad C: Although , what 's {disfmarker} there 's one with a slash after it . That 's kind of disturbing .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Grad D: Yeah , we 'll have to look at it you know .
Postdoc E: That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} I looked for that one .
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad C: Anyway .
Postdoc E: I actually explicitly looked for that one ,
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: and I think that , um , I {disfmarker} I 'm not exactly sure about that .
PhD B: Was that somewhere where they were gonna say " new speaker " or something ?
Postdoc E: No , I looked for that , but that doesn't actually exist . And it may be , I don't {disfmarker} I can't explain that .
Grad C: That 's alright . I 'm just pointing that out .
Postdoc E: I i it 's the only {disfmarker}
Grad C: There 's {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: it 's the only pattern that has a slash after it , and I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's an epiphenomenon .
PhD G: Well there 's not @ @ .
Grad D: So I 'll just {disfmarker} I was just looking at the bottom of page three there , is that " to be " or " not to be " .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD B: There 's no tilde in front of it ,
Postdoc E: Oh that 's cute .
PhD B: so .
Postdoc E: That 's funny . Yeah .
Grad D: OK anyways , sorry .
Postdoc E: OK .
Grad D: " Try to stay on topic , Adam . "
Postdoc E: There is th one {disfmarker} Y well , no , that 's r that 's legitimate . So now , uh , comments , you can see they 're listed again , same deal , with exhaustive listing of everything found in everything except for these final th thirty minutes .
Grad D: OK so , um , on some of these QUALs ,
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Grad D: are they really QUALs , or are they glosses ? So like there 's a " QUAL TCL " .
Postdoc E: " TCL " . Where do you see that ?
Grad D: Uh
Postdoc E: Oh , oh . The reason is because w it was said " tickle " .
Professor F: What 's a QUAL ?
Grad D: Oh I see , I see .
Grad C: Hmm .
Grad D: So it 's not gloss . OK , I see .
Postdoc E: Yep .
Grad C: Sh - shouldn't it be " QUAL TICKLE " or something ?
Grad D: It wasn't said " TCL " . Of course .
Grad C: Like {disfmarker} it 's not {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: On the {disfmarker} in the actual script {disfmarker} in the actual transcript , I s I {disfmarker} So this {disfmarker} this happens in the very first one .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: I actually wrote it as " tickle " .
Grad C: OK .
Postdoc E: Because we {disfmarker} they didn't say " TCL " , they said " tickle " .
Grad C: Yeah .
Postdoc E: And then , following that is " QUAL TCL " .
PhD G: Right .
Grad C: Oh I see . OK .
Professor F: I f I forget , what 's QUAL ?
Postdoc E: Qual - qualifier .
PhD B: It 's just comment about what they said .
Grad C: Yeah .
Postdoc E: Comment .
Grad C: It 's not something you wanna replace {pause} with
Postdoc E: Comment or contextual comment .
PhD B: So they didn't mean " tickle " as in Elmo ,
Grad C: but {disfmarker}
PhD A: Tickle ?
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD B: they meant " tickle " as in {disfmarker}
Grad D: Yeah .
PhD G: Huh .
Professor F: Right .
PhD G: But at some point {disfmarker} I mean , we probably shoul
Grad D: We 'll probably add it to the language model .
PhD G: But we should add it to the dictionar
Grad D: Yeah .
PhD G: No , to the pronunciation model .
Grad D: What did I say ?
PhD A: To the language model {disfmarker} model .
PhD G: Language , uh {disfmarker}
Grad D: Well both .
PhD B: Add what , Liz ?
Grad D: We can go on lan lan add it to both dictionary and language model .
PhD G: Oh lan Oh OK - we OK
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD G: it 's in the language model , w yeah , but it so it 's the pronunciation model that has to have a pronunciation of " tickle " .
Grad D: Well " tickle " was pronounced " tickle " . Right ?
PhD A: " tickle " is pronounced " tickle " ?
PhD B: What are you saying ?
Grad D: It 's pronounced the same {disfmarker} it 's pronounced the same as the verb .
PhD G: I 'm sorry !
Grad D: So I think it 's the language model that makes it different .
PhD G: Oh , sorry . What I meant is that there should be a pronunciation " tickle " for TCL as a word .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad D: Oh I see .
PhD G: And that word in the {disfmarker} in , you know , it stays in the language model wherever it was .
Professor F: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Right . Right .
Professor F: Right .
PhD G: Yeah you never would put " tickle " in the language model in that form ,
Postdoc E:
Grad D: Right .
PhD G: yeah . Right . There 's actually a bunch of cases like this with people 's names and {disfmarker}
PhD B: So how w there 'd be a problem for doing the language modeling then with our transcripts the way they are .
PhD G: Yes . Yeah . Yeah so th th there there 's a few cases like that where the um , the word needs to be spelled out in {disfmarker} in a consistent way as it would appear in the language , but there 's not very many of these . Tcl 's one of them .
Grad D: And {disfmarker} and you 'll ha you 'll have to do it sychronously .
PhD G: Um , y yeah .
Grad D: Right , so y so , whoever 's creating the new models , will have to also go through the transcripts and change them synchronously .
Grad C: It 's just disturbing .
PhD G: Right .
PhD B: Hmm .
PhD G: Right . We have this {disfmarker} there is this thing I was gonna talk to you about at some point about , you know , what do we do with the dictionary as we 're up updating the dictionary , these changes have to be consistent with what 's in the {disfmarker} Like spelling people 's names and so forth . If we make a spelling correction to their name , like someone had Deborah Tannen 's name mispelled , and since we know who that is , you know , we could correct it ,
Grad D: You can correct it . Yeah .
PhD G: but {disfmarker} but we need to make sure we have the mispel If it doesn't get corrected we have to have a pronunciation as a mispelled word in the dictionary .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Things like that .
Grad D: These are so funny to read .
Postdoc E: Well , of course now the {disfmarker} the Tannen corre the spelling c change .
PhD G: So .
Postdoc E: Uh , that 's what gets {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I picked those up in the frequency check .
PhD G: Right . Right . So if there 's things that get corrected before we get them , it 's {disfmarker} it 's not an issue ,
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: but if there 's things that um , we change later , then we always have to keep our {disfmarker} the dictionary up to date . And then , yeah , in the case of " tickle " I guess we would just have a , you know , word " TCL " which {disfmarker}
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: You add it to the dictionary .
PhD G: which normally would be an acronym , you know , " TCL "
Grad D: Right .
PhD G: but just has another pronunciation .
Grad D: Yep .
Postdoc E: " ICSI " is {disfmarker} is one of those that sometimes people pronounce and sometimes they say " ICSI . "
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: So , those that are l are listed in the acronyms , I actually know
PhD G: Oh yeah .
Postdoc E: they were said as letters . The others , um , e those really do need to be listened to cuz I haven't been able to go to all the IC ICSI things ,
PhD G: Right , exactly .
Postdoc E: and {disfmarker} {comment} and until they 've been listened to they stay as " ICSI " .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Right .
Professor F: Don and I were just noticing , love this one over on page three , " vocal {disfmarker} vocal gesture mimicking sound of screwing something into head to hold mike in place . "
Grad C: That 's great .
Grad D: It 's this , " rrre - rrre - rrre " . It was me .
Postdoc E: It was ! In fact , it was ! Yeah !
Grad D: A lot of these are me the {disfmarker} the " beep is said with a high pit high pitch and lengthening . "
Postdoc E: He {disfmarker} he s he said {disfmarker} he said get {disfmarker}
PhD A: To head .
Grad D: That was the {disfmarker} I was imitating uh , beeping out {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Yeah , that 's it .
Professor F: Beep .
Postdoc E: Perfect . Yeah that 's it .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: Oh there is something spelled out " BEEEEEEP "
Grad C: Um {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: That 's it .
Grad C: Yeah .
Postdoc E: Yeah , that 's {disfmarker} that 's been changed .
PhD G: in the old {disfmarker} Thank you . Because he was saying , " How many E 's do I have to allow for ? "
Grad C: You need a lot of {disfmarker}
Grad D: What I meant was " beep " .
Grad C: You need a lot of qualification Adam .
Grad D: I guess so .
Postdoc E: That 's been changed . So , exactly , that 's where the lengthening comment c came in .
Grad C: Subtext .
Grad D: Anyway .
Postdoc E: s chan brought it down .
PhD G: Right , thanks , yeah .
Grad D: So they 're vocalization ,
PhD G: Right .
Postdoc E: And those of course get {disfmarker} get picked up in the frequency check
Grad D: glosses .
Postdoc E: because you see " beep "
PhD G: Right .
Postdoc E: and you know {disfmarker} I mean it gets kicked out in the spelling , and it also gets kicked out in the , uh , freq frequency listing .
PhD G: Right . Right .
Postdoc E: I have the {disfmarker} there 're various things like " breathe " versus " breath " versus " inhale " and , hhh , you know , I don't know . I {disfmarker} I think they don't have any implications for anything else so it 's like I 'm tempted to leave them for now an and {disfmarker} It 's easy enough to find them when they 're in curly brackets . We can always get an exhaustive listing of these things and find them and change them .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: " Sings finale - type song "
Grad C: Yeah , that was in the first meeting .
Professor F: that 's {disfmarker} that 's good .
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad D: Um ,
Postdoc E: Yeah , but I don't actually remember what it was . But that was {disfmarker} Eric did that .
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad D: So on {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Professor F: Tah - dah ! I don't know .
Postdoc E: I think maybe something like that .
Professor F: Something like that maybe , yeah .
Postdoc E: Well , that 'd qualify .
Grad D: On the glosses for numbers ,
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Grad D: it seems like there are lots of different ways it 's being done .
Postdoc E: OK . Interesting question .
Grad D: There 's a {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Yes . OK , now first of all {disfmarker} Ooo - ooo ! Very important .
Grad D: " Ooo - ooo . "
Postdoc E: Uh Chuck {disfmarker} Chuck led to a refinement here which is to add " NUMS " if these are parts of the read numbers . Now you already know i that I had , uh , in places where they hadn't transcribed numbers , I put " numbers " in place of any kind of numbers , but there are places where they , um , it {disfmarker} th this convention came later an and at the very first digits task in some transcripts they actually transcribed numbers . And , um , d Chuck pointed out that this is read speech , and it 's nice to have the option of ignoring it for certain other prob uh p uh , things . And that 's why there 's this other tag here which occurs a hundred and five {disfmarker} or three hundred and five times right now which is just {disfmarker} well n n " NUMS " by itself
Grad D: " NUMS " , yeah .
Postdoc E: which means this is part of the numbers task . I may change it to " digits " . I mean , i with the sed command you can really just change it however you want because it 's systematically encoded , you know ?
Grad D: Yep .
Postdoc E: Have to think about what 's the best for {disfmarker} for the overall purposes , but in any case , um , " numbers " and " NUMS " are a part of this digits task thing . Um , now th Then I have these numbers that have quotation marks around them . Um , I didn't want to put them in as gloss comments because then you get the substitution . And actually , th um , {vocalsound} the reason I b did it this way was because I initially started out with the other version , you have the numbers and you have the full form and the parentheses , however sometimes people stumble over these numbers they 're saying . So you say , " Seve - seventy eight point two " , or whatever . And there 's no way of capturing that if you 're putting the numbers off to the side . You can't have the seven and {disfmarker}
Grad D: So what 's to the left of these ?
Postdoc E: The left is i so example the very first one ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: it would be , spelled out in words , " point five " .
Grad D: OK , that 's what I was asking . Right .
Postdoc E: Only it 's spelled out in words .
Grad D: Point FIVE , yeah .
Postdoc E: So i this is also spelled out in {disfmarker} in words . " Point five . "
Grad D: Good .
Postdoc E: And then , in here , " NUMS " , so it 's not going to be mistaken as a gloss . It comes out as " NUMS quote dot five " .
Grad D: OK now , the other example is , in the glosses right there ,
Postdoc E: Thank you .
Grad D: " gloss one one one dash one three zero " .
Grad C: Right .
Grad D: What {disfmarker} what 's to the left of that ?
Postdoc E: Well now {disfmarker} In that case it 's people saying things like " one one one dash so - and - so " or they 're saying uh " two {disfmarker} I mean zero " whatever .
Grad D: OK .
Postdoc E: And in that case , it 's part of the numbers task , and it 's not gonna be included in the read digits anyway ,
PhD B: So there will be a " NUMS " tag on those lines ?
Postdoc E: so {disfmarker} I m in the uh {disfmarker} There is .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: Yeah . I 've added that all now too .
Grad C: There 's a " numbers " tag {disfmarker}
Grad D: Good .
Grad C: I 'm sorry I 'm {disfmarker} I didn't follow that last thing .
PhD G: Wait .
Postdoc E: So , so gloss {disfmarker} in the same line that would have " gloss quote one one one dash one thirty " , you 'd have a gloss at the end of the line saying , uh , " curly bracket NUMS curly bracket " .
Grad C: Right .
Postdoc E: So if you {disfmarker} if you did a , uh , a " grep minus V nums "
PhD G: Oh , so you could do " grep minus V nums " .
Postdoc E: and you get rid of anything that was read .
PhD G: So that 's the {disfmarker} yeah .
Grad C: OK .
PhD G: So there wouldn't be something like i if somebody said something like , " Boy , I 'm really tired , OK . " and then started reading that would be on a separate line ?
Postdoc E: Yes .
PhD G: OK great . Cuz I was doing the " grep minus V " quick and dirty and looked like that was working OK ,
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm . Good .
PhD G: but {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Yep .
PhD G: Great . Now why do we {disfmarker} what 's the reason for having like the point five have the " NUMS " on it ? Is that just like when they 're talking about their data or something ?
Postdoc E: This is more because {disfmarker}
PhD G: Or {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Yeah . Oh these are all these , the " NUMS point " , this all where they 're saying " point " something or other .
PhD G: These are all like inside the spontaneous {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: And the other thing too is for readability of the transcript . I mean if you 're trying to follow this while you 're reading it it 's really hard to read , you know {disfmarker} eh , " so in the data column five has " , you know , " one point five compared to seventy nine point six " , it 's like when you see the words it 's really hard to follow the argument . And this is just really a {disfmarker} a way of someone who would handle th the data in a more discourse - y way to be able to follow what 's being said .
Grad D: Label it .
PhD G: Oh OK .
Postdoc E: So this is where Chuck 's , um , overall h architecture comes in ,
PhD G: I see .
Postdoc E: where we 're gonna have a master file of the channelized data . Um , there will be scripts that are written to convert it into these t these main two uses and th some scripts will take it down th e into a f a for ta take it to a format that 's usable for the recognizer an uh , other scripts will take it to a form that 's usable for the {disfmarker} for linguistics an and discourse analysis . And , um , the implication that {disfmarker} that I have is that th the master copy will stay unchanged . These will just be things that are generated ,
Grad D: Right
Postdoc E: and e by using scripts .
PhD G: OK .
Grad D: Master copies of superset .
Postdoc E: When things change then the {disfmarker} the script will cham change but the {disfmarker} but there won't be stored copies of {disfmarker} in different versions of things .
Grad D: Good .
PhD G: So , I guess I 'd have one request here which is just , um , maybe to make it more robust , th that the tag , whatever you would choose for this type of " NUMS " {comment} where it 's inside the spontaneous speech , is different than the tag that you use for the read speech .
PhD B: Right . Right . That would argue for changing the other ones to be " digits " or something .
PhD G: Um , that way w if we make a mistake parsing , or something , we don't see the " point five " , or {disfmarker} or it 's not there , then we
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: a Just {disfmarker} an And actually for things like " seven eighths " , or people do fractions too I guess , you {disfmarker} maybe you want one overall tag for sort of that would be similar to that ,
Postdoc E: Except {disfmarker}
PhD G: or {disfmarker} As long as they 're sep as they 're different strings that we {disfmarker} that 'll make our p sort of processing more robust .
Postdoc E: Well {disfmarker}
PhD G: Cuz we really will get rid of everything that has the " NUMS " string in it .
PhD B: I suppose what you could do is just make sure that you get rid of everything that has " curly brace NUMS curly brace " .
Postdoc E: Well {disfmarker} Ex - exactly .
PhD B: I mean that would be the {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Exactly . That was {disfmarker} that was my motivation . And i these can be changed , like I said .
PhD G: Yeah .
Postdoc E: You know , I mean , as I said I was considering changing it to " digits " . And , it just {disfmarker} i you know , it 's just a matter of deciding on whatever it is , and being sure the scripts know .
PhD B: Right .
PhD G: It would probably be safer , if you 're willing , to have a separate tag just because um , then we know for sure . And we can also do counts on them without having to do the processing . But you 're right , we could do it this way , it {disfmarker} it should work . Um ,
PhD B: Yeah , and it makes it {disfmarker} I guess the thing about {disfmarker}
PhD G: but it it 's probably not hard for a person to tell the difference
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD G: because one 's in the context of a {disfmarker} you know , a transcribed word string ,
PhD B: Right .
Postdoc E: The other thing is you can get really so minute with these things
PhD G: and {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: and increase the size of the files and the re and decrease the readability to such an extent by simply something like " percent " . Now I {disfmarker} I could have adopted a similar convention for " percent " , but somehow percent is not so hard , you know ?
Grad D: Hmm .
Postdoc E: i It 's just when you have these points and you 're trying to figure out where the decimal places are {disfmarker} And we could always add it later . Percent 's easy to detect . Point however is {disfmarker} is uh a word that has a couple different meanings . And you 'll find both of those in one of these meetings , where he 's saying " well the first point I wanna make is so - and - so " and he goes through four points , and also has all these decimals .
PhD B: So Liz , what does the recognizer do ,
Postdoc E: So .
PhD B: uh ,
Professor F: Hmm .
PhD B: what does the SRI recognizer output for things like that ? " seven point five " . Does it output the word {disfmarker}
PhD G: " Seven point five " .
PhD B: Right , the word " seven " ?
Grad D: Well , the numbers ?
PhD B: The number " seven " ?
PhD G: The word .
PhD B: The word " seven " , OK .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: So I 'd {disfmarker} so " I 'd like {disfmarker} I 'd like to talk about point five " .
PhD G: And {disfmarker} and actually , you know the language {disfmarker}
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: it 's the same point , actually , the {disfmarker} the p you know , the word " to " and the word y th " going to " and " to go to " those are two different " to 's " and so there 's no distinction there .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: It 's just {disfmarker} just the word " point " has {disfmarker} Yeah , every word has only one , yeah e one version even if {disfmarker} even if it 's {disfmarker} A actually even like the word " read " {comment} and " read " Those are two different words . They 're spelled the same way , right ?
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: And they 're still gonna be transcribed as READ .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Right .
PhD G: So , yeah , I {disfmarker} I like the idea of having this in there , I just {disfmarker} I was a little bit worried that , um , the tag for removing the read speech {disfmarker} because i What if we have like " read letters " or , I don't know ,
Grad D: We might wanna {disfmarker} just a separate tag that says it 's read .
PhD G: like " read something " like " read "
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: yeah , basically . But other than that I it sounds great .
Grad D: Yeah . OK ? Are we done ?
Postdoc E: Well I wanted to say also regarding the channelized data ,
Grad D: Oh , I guess we 're not done .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: that , um , Thilo requested , um , that we ge get some segments done by hand to e e s reduce the size of the time bins wh like was Chuc - Chuck was mentioning earlier that , um , that , um , if you {disfmarker} if you said , " Oh " and it was in part of a really long , s complex , overlapping segment , that the same start and end times would be held for that one
Grad D: Well {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: as for the longer utterances ,
Grad D: We did that for one meeting , right ,
Postdoc E: and {disfmarker}
Grad D: so you have that data don't you ?
PhD A: Yeah , that 's the training data .
Postdoc E: And he requested that there be , uh , similar , uh , samples done for five minute stretches c involving a variety of speakers and overlapping secti sections .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc E: He gave me {disfmarker} he did the {disfmarker} very nice , he {disfmarker} he did some shopping through the data and found segments that would be useful . And at this point , all four of the ones that he specified have been done . In addition the I 've {disfmarker} I have the transcribers expanding the amount that they 're doing actually .
PhD A: Oh great .
Postdoc E: So right now , um , I know that as of today we got an extra fifteen minutes of that type , and I 'm having them expand the realm on either side of these places where they 've already started .
PhD A: Oh great . OK .
Postdoc E: But if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} you know , and I {disfmarker} and he 's gonna give me some more sections that {disfmarker} that he thinks would be useful for this purpose .
PhD A: Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc E: Because it 's true , I mean , if we could do the {disfmarker} the more fine grained tuning of this , uh , using an algorithm , that would be so much more efficient . And , um . So this is gonna be {pause} useful to expand this .
PhD A: So I {disfmarker} I thought we {disfmarker} we sh we sh perhaps we should try to {disfmarker} to start with those channelized versions just to {disfmarker} just to try it . Give it {disfmarker} Give one tr transcriber the {disfmarker} the channelized version of {disfmarker} of my speech - nonspeech detection and look if {disfmarker} if that 's helpful for them , or just let them try if {disfmarker} if that 's better or If they {disfmarker} if they can {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: You mean to start from scratch f in a brand new transcript ?
PhD A: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc E: That 'd be excellent . Yeah , that 'd be really great . As it stands we 're still in the phase of sort of , um , cleaning up the existing data getting things , uh , in i m more tight tightly time {disfmarker} uh , aligned . I also wanna tell {disfmarker} um , I also wanted to r raise the issue that {disfmarker} OK so , there 's this idea we 're gonna have this master copy of the transcript , it 's gonna be modified by scripts t into these two different functions . And actually the master {disfmarker}
PhD B: Two or more . Two or more different functions .
Postdoc E: Two {disfmarker} two or more . And that the master is gonna be the channelized version .
PhD B: Right .
Postdoc E: So right now we 've taken this i initial one , it was a single channel basically the way it was input . And now , uh , thanks to the advances made in the interface , we can from now on use the channelized part , and , um , any changes that are made get made in the channelized version kind of thing . But I wanted to get all the finished {disfmarker} all the checks {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah , so that has implications for your script .
Grad C: Yeah . So , uh , have those {disfmarker} e e the vis the ten hours that have been transcribed already , have those been channelized ? And I know {disfmarker} I 've seen @ @ {disfmarker} I 've seen they 've been channelized ,
Postdoc E: Yes , they have .
Grad D: All ten hours ?
Grad C: but
Postdoc E: Except for the missing thirty minutes .
Grad C: have they uh {disfmarker} have they been {disfmarker} has the time {disfmarker} have the time markings been adjusted , uh , p on a per channel {disfmarker}
Grad D: Great .
Postdoc E: Uh , for {disfmarker} for a total of like twenty m f for a total of {disfmarker} Let 's see , four times {disfmarker} total of about an {disfmarker} {pause} thirty minutes . That 's {disfmarker} that 's been the case .
Grad C: So ,
Postdoc E: And plus the training , whatever you have .
Grad C: I guess , I mean , I don't know if we should talk about this now , or not , but I
Grad D: Well it 's just we 're {pause} missing tea .
Grad C: Yeah , I know .
Grad D: So .
Grad C: No , but I mean my question is like should I wait until all of those are processed , and channelized , like the time markings are adjusted before I do all the processing , and we start like branching off into the {disfmarker} into the {disfmarker} our layer of uh transcripts .
Postdoc E: Well , you know the problem {disfmarker} the problem is that some {disfmarker} some of the adjustments that they 're making are to bring {disfmarker} are to combine bins that were {disfmarker} time bins which were previously separate . And the reason they do that is sometimes there 's a word that 's cut off .
Grad C: Right .
Postdoc E: And so , i i i it 's true that it 's likely to be adjusted in the way that the words are more complete . And ,
Grad C: OK . No I know {disfmarker} I know that adjusting those things are gonna {disfmarker} is gonna make it better .
Postdoc E: so I {disfmarker} it 's gonna be a more reliable thing and I 'm not sure {disfmarker}
Grad C: I mean I 'm sure about that ,
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Grad C: but do you have like a time frame when you can expect like all of it to be done , or when you expect them to finish it , or {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Well partly it depends on how {disfmarker} um , how e effective it will be to apply an algorithm because i this takes time ,
Grad C: Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc E: you know , it takes a couple hours t to do , uh , ten minutes .
Grad C: Yeah , I don't doubt it . Um , so .
PhD B: So right now the {disfmarker} what you 're doing is you 're taking the {disfmarker} uh , the o original version and you 're sort of channelizing yourself , right ?
Grad C: Yeah . I 'm doing it myself . I mean i if the time markings aren't different across channels , like the channelized version really doesn't have any more information .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: So , I was just {disfmarker} I mean , originally I had done before like the channelized versions were coming out .
PhD B: Right . Right .
Grad C: Um ,
PhD B: So I {disfmarker} I th I think probably the way it 'll go is that , you know , when we make this first general version and then start working on the script , that script @ @ that will be ma you know primarily come from what you 've done , um , we 'll need to work on a channelized version of those originals .
Grad C: and so it 's a question of like what {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And so it should be pretty much identical to what you have t except for the one that they 've already tightened the boundaries on .
Postdoc E: Yep . Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Right .
PhD B: Um , So
Postdoc E: Yeah , I mean {disfmarker}
PhD B: uh , and then probably what will happen is as the transcribers finish tightening more and more , you know , that original version will get updated
Postdoc E: yeah .
PhD B: and then we 'll rerun the script and produce better uh versions .
Grad C: OK .
PhD B: But the {disfmarker} I guess the ef the effect for you guys , because you 're pulling out the little wave forms into separate ones , that would mean these boundaries are constantly changing you 'd have to constantly re rerun that ,
Grad C: I know .
PhD B: so , maybe {disfmarker}
Grad C: Right .
Postdoc E: But that {disfmarker}
PhD G: But that {disfmarker} that 's not hard .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: No .
PhD G: I I think the harder part is making sure that the transc the transcription {disfmarker}
PhD B: OK .
PhD G: So if you b merge two things , then you know that it 's the sum of the transcripts , but if you split inside something , you don't where the word {disfmarker} which words moved .
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD G: And that 's wh that 's where it becomes a little bit {disfmarker} uh , having to rerun the processing .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: The cutting of the waveforms is pretty trivial .
Grad C: Yeah . I mean as long as it can all be done automatically , I mean , then that 's not a concern .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: You know , if I just have to run three scripts to extract it all and let it run on my computer for an hour and a half , or however long it takes to parse and create all the reference file , that 's not a problem .
PhD G: Right .
PhD B: Yeah . Uh - huh . Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Um , so yeah . As long as we 're at that point . And I know exactly like what the steps will work {disfmarker} what 's going on , in the editing process ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad C: so . OK .
Postdoc E: So that 's {disfmarker} I I mean I could {disfmarker} there were other checks that I did , but it 's {disfmarker} I think that we 've {disfmarker} unless you think there 's anything else , I think that I 've covered it .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD B: I can't think of any of the {disfmarker} other ones .
Postdoc E: OK . Great .
Professor F: OK .
Grad D: Oop ! Man !
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